# Z370 / Z390 VRM Discussion Thread



## br0da

Socket LGA 1151 - here we go again!
Let's collect and discuss all the info we can gather about the VRMs on boards with Z370 or Z390 PCHs in this thread.

Comments:



AlphaC said:


> View attachment 99753
> 
> 
> Also updated temp compilation:
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 99745


Useful links:

Motherboard list @ videocardz.net

LGA 1151 Mainboard VRM list @ hardwareluxx


----------



## Kanashimu

The Asrock boards are out too. This is something I'm very interested in as well. I simply want to pick the board with the best OC performance, and I'm pretty stuck between the Taichi, Fatality i7, and the Hero.


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## Sin0822

Yea i was really surprised to find the new Intersil smart power stages int he gaming 7, like damn (they are very expensive)!


----------



## br0da

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Kanashimu*
> 
> The Asrock boards are out too. This is something I'm very interested in as well. I simply want to pick the board with the best OC performance, and I'm pretty stuck between the Taichi, Fatality i7, and the Hero.


When they were speaking of "DSMs" with 1.2mOhm RDS(on) in the past they were using TI NexFETs CSD87350 so most likely we'll see these FETs on the Z370 boards again.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Sin0822*
> 
> Yea i was really surprised to find the new Intersil smart power stages int he gaming 7, like damn (they are very expensive)!


Yeah I do really appreciate that too.


----------



## VRMfreak

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *br0da*
> 
> If that VRM shot is accurate the're using NIKO Sem. FETs again
> 
> LGA 1151 Mainboard VRM list @ hardwareluxx


*Smashing my head against the wall*


----------



## Kanashimu

ASUS boards are out.

Video of the Z370 Apex and Z370 Formula

Sorry for the silly question, but once you know all the VRM parts, how do we know if a board will be a quality overclocker? If I understand correctly, the Gigabyte Z370 Gaming 7 has a high quality power stage controller?


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## czin125

Could you buy that VRM waterblock and remove the Apex heatsink and swap it? From those two boards.


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## phillyman36

Sorry Kanashimu already posted the Asus boards. Didnt see it.


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## br0da

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Kanashimu*
> 
> ASUS boards are out.


Can't find anything interesting in there.








Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Kanashimu*
> 
> Sorry for the silly question, but once you know all the VRM parts, how do we know if a board will be a quality overclocker?


There are quite a lot of good indicators. Just check out common guides on this topic, e.g. Sins.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Kanashimu*
> 
> If I understand correctly, the Gigabyte Z370 Gaming 7 has a high quality power stage controller?


Yeah the controller is a high quality one, also the power stages themselves are high quality too.


Gigabyte Z370 Aorus Ultra Gaming Review @ lab501
 ISL95866 controller running in 4+3 mode
 4C06N lowside MOSFETs, also both low- and highside FETs are doubled for VCC


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## Fediuld

I wonder if the mITX Z370I Strix would push the 8700K at 5Ghz as the Z270I did, and if EK releases a monoblock also.


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## Kanashimu

MSI's full lineup is out.


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## CrazyHeaven

I need two things. The prices are still missing. And most of those msi boards aren't listing the full spec sheet.


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## GBT-MatthewH

(Wrong spec sheet! Sorry for any confusion)


----------



## br0da

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *GBT-MatthewH*
> 
> Z370 AORUS Gaming 7 uses ISL 95866 (8+3).


For sure? What about this review then?
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *GBT-MatthewH*
> 
> If you wanna know anything else (except price, gotta wait til the 5th) let me know.


What about the VRMs on your other Z370 products?


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## GBT-MatthewH

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *br0da*
> 
> For sure? What about this review then?
> What about the VRMs on your other Z370 products?


Correct!


----------



## AlphaC

I am waiting for the Asus' Z370-A information.

It seems for most people that is the baseline board.

As far as the other boards, I think Asrock's K6 / Extreme4 / Taichi trio are good value. The difference is the Taichi has the Hyper BCLK feature that adds cost. The K6 appears to have power/reset/Debug LED so that's a good sign on top of the 60A chokes and "DSM" marketing drivel that is likely TI NexFETs.

edit: also the Asrock K6 / Extreme4 / Taichi / Fatal1ty Pro Gaming i7 (stupid long name) all have two BIOS chips, although likely due to branding they can't call it Dual BIOS.
The specifications list "2 x 128Mb AMI UEFI Legal BIOS with multilingual GUI support (1 x Main BIOS and 1 x Backup BIOS)"

Unless the Asrock K6 veers sharply away from previous price points, it will likely be a ~ $160-180 board on par with the Asus Z370-A in pricing. The Extreme4 was lower than the K6 at around $160 (although the Z270 one used Sinopowers) and the Taichi was ~$220 for Z270.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *GBT-MatthewH*
> 
> Alas I don't have a board in front of me, but I am reading off a spec sheet from our R&D... 99% sure the review is wrong because it should be 8+3, not 8+2. I also have ISL 6625A listed. My guess is they got an early engineering sample and not a final board.
> 
> Pretty much the entire stack is 95866 + 6625. Top-mid range is 8+3, mid-entry level is 4+3.


A bit disingenuous since it's using doublers to achieve the "8+3". Anyhow, unless Gigabyte gets their act together with respect to midrange boards , I suspect Asrock and ASUS will be the boards to buy for the Z370 platform. Gigabyte boards at the high end are decent, but they're laden with RGB garbage and not really good price/perf.

The Z370 platform isn't a longterm socket, so I think for most users the best bet is to get a low-midrange board with USB 3.1 gen 2 , ALC1220, Thunderbolt support (the main reason to go Intel over AMD) , half decent VRM (unless delidding), and a Debug LED if possible for troubleshooting. From what I see, the Gigabyte boards except the Gaming 7 and Gaming 5 are using On Semi parts that can only push about 25A without heating up. (the Lab501 review has 4C06N it appears)

I understand that most of the "gaming" userbase wouldn't know an inductor if it slapped them in the face. However, Gigabyte has to realize that these Coffee Lake CPUs are going to be more power hungry than the Kaby Lake CPUs.

On the geizhals.eu price comparison tool , the Gigabyte Gaming 7 is showing up as € 355.65 , while the Gaming 5 is listed as € 297.69. ShopBLT shows the Gaming 7 at $271.29 and the Gaming 5 at $219.54.


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## GBT-MatthewH

Wow... I can't even blame this one on Monday. I pulled a board and realized I was looking at the wrong spec sheet >< Apologies all around!

VRM for Gaming 7 is ISL69138, 8+2, not doubled.

Ultra gaming is ISL95866 4+3.


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## CrazyHeaven

I didn't want to spend more than 800 on the cpu motherboard combo. I was considering going high end with them and using it for 3 years or so. I'm not a huge gamer so I already decided my 980 ti will be great for now.

I mean, how much more could 390 bring to the table? 6 cores would be great but after that I'd be expecting diminishing returns.

Most of my work is cataloging photos and video editing.

So what is an inductor?


----------



## AlphaC

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *GBT-MatthewH*
> 
> Wow... I can't even blame this one on Monday. I pulled a board and realized I was looking at the wrong spec sheet >< Apologies all around!
> 
> VRM for Gaming 7 is ISL69138, 8+2, not doubled.
> 
> Ultra gaming is ISL95866 4+3.


_The ISL69138 is a digital, dual output, flexible, multiphase (X+Y ≤ 7) PWM controller designed to be compliant with Intel VR13 and IMVP8 specifications. The digital multiphase controller can be configured to support any desired phase assignments up to a maximum of seven phases across the two outputs (X and Y). For example, 6+1, 5+2, 4+2, 3+3, 3+2, or even single output operation as a 7+0 configuration are supported._

https://www.intersil.com/en/products/power-management/computing-power-vrm-imvp/digital-multiphase-controllers/ISL69138.html


I don't see how that is possible.

There's probably some ISL6617A doublers.

----
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CrazyHeaven*
> 
> I didn't want to spend more than 800 on the couch mbps combo. I was considering going high end with them and using it for 3 years or so. I'm not a huge gamer so I already decided my 980 ti will be great for now.
> 
> I mean, how much more could 390 bring to the table? 6 cores would be great but after that I'd be expecting diminishing returns.
> 
> Most of my work is cataloging photos and video editing.
> 
> So what is an inductor?


An inductor (aka "choke") resists changes in current , it acts as a filter for AC current ripple.

https://www.allaboutcircuits.com/textbook/direct-current/chpt-15/magnetic-fields-and-inductance/
https://www.autodesk.com/products/eagle/blog/inductor-plain-english/
https://blog.octopart.com/archives/2016/07/how-to-select-an-inductor
http://www.electronics-tutorials.ws/inductor/inductor.html
http://electronics.howstuffworks.com/inductor1.htm

Oct 4 update:
Backside of Asrock Fatal1ty K6 from Newegg https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813157788

4 doublers on top side , 3 doublers on the vertical
Nuvoton SuperIO
My guess is 4+3 PWM controller doubled to 8+6 , I'm not sure why they wrote 12 phases unless it is 6+2 doubled to 12+2

Asrock Z370 Extreme4

https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813157789

Asus Z370-A backside from Newegg https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813119038


Looks to be 2 mosfets at the top back of board

Similar for Asus Z370-E gaming
https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813119033

asus Z370-I


https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813119036

Gigabyte z370 Aorus Ultra Gaming

https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813145037

*MSI Z370 Pro Carbon using Onsemi*
https://www.kitguru.net/components/motherboard/ryan-martin/msi-z370-gaming-pro-carbon-ac-motherboard-review/3/
" There are 12 NTMFS4C024N and 10 NTMFS4C029N MOSFET units on the high- and low-side, respectively, closely located to the CPU power delivery system, both provided by ON Semiconductor."

back has 3 doublers I think
Datasheets: http://www.onsemi.com/PowerSolutions/product.do?id=NTMFS4C024N , http://www.onsemi.com/PowerSolutions/product.do?id=NTMFS4C029N

*ASUS ROG Strix Z370-E Gaming*
https://www.kitguru.net/components/motherboard/ryan-martin/asus-rog-strix-z370-e-gaming-motherboard-review/3/


The CPU VRM is a 10 phase solution with 10 high-side (marked "RA14 GJ W72K") and 10 low-side (marked "RA12 BE WE68K") MOSFETs.

(My guess is Vishay SiRA12 & Vishay SiRA14)

Hardware.info PWM info
https://be.hardware.info/reviews/7597/8/intel-z370-moederborden-round-up-17-keer-coffee-lake-intern-stroomvoorziening


Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!




PhasesPWM-controllerASRock Z370 Killer SLI11Intersil ISL95856ASRock Z370 Extreme414Intersil ISL69138ASRock Z370 Gaming K614Intersil ISL69138ASRock Z370 Taichi14Intersil ISL69138ASUS Prime Z370-A10Intersil ISL69138ASUS ROG Maximus X Hero10Digi+ ASP1400BT ASUS ROG Strix Z370-E Gaming10Digi+ ASP1400BTASUS ROG Strix Z370-F Gaming10Digi+ ASP1400BTASUS ROG Strix Z370-I Gaming8Digi+ ASP1400BTASUS TUF Z370-Pro Gaming6Digi+ ASP1400BTGigabyte Z370 Aorus Gaming 710 Intersil ISL69138Gigabyte Z370 Aorus Ultra Gaming7Intersil ISL95866Gigabyte Z370-HD37Intersil ISL95866Gigabyte Z370-HD3P7Intersil ISL95866MSI Z370 Gaming Pro Carbon AC10 MSI Z370 Godlike Gaming18IR35201MSI Z370 SLI Plus10 




Tek Syndicate claims Asrock is using Sinopower on Fatal1ty Gaming i7?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oU0OHfoahQ8

(If that's true maybe it's SM7341EH)

https://news.xfastest.com/review/41734/asrock-z370-taichi/


FDPC5030SG MOSFET

https://news.xfastest.com/review/41736/gigabyte-z370-aorus-gaming-7/


Smart Power Stage MOSFET

https://www.hardwarebbq.com/aorus-z370-gaming-7-review/3/
(the author wrote 10+2 Smart Power stages, when it is 10 total...)

https://news.xfastest.com/review/41732/asus-rog-maximus-x-hero/


Unspecified (looks to be NexFET or other high+low side Powerblock)


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## Zyther

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AlphaC*
> 
> *ASUS ROG Strix Z370-E Gaming*
> https://www.kitguru.net/components/motherboard/ryan-martin/asus-rog-strix-z370-e-gaming-motherboard-review/3/
> 
> 
> The CPU VRM is a 10 phase solution with 10 high-side (marked "RA14 GJ W72K") and 10 low-side (marked "RA12 BE WE68K") MOSFETs.
> 
> (My guess is Vishay SiRA12 & Vishay SiRA14)


I dont know a whole lot about VRM, but i was looking at maybe getting this board and trying to get a decent OC. what does it VRM look like, also looks like this board uses alot more power then other z370s


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## asdkj1740

ASRock Extreme4
http://www.xfastest.com/forum.php?mod=viewthread&tid=201096&cp=1

ASROCK TAICHI
http://www.xfastest.com/thread-201072-1-1.html

the extreme 4 and taichi have got some strange power design to me...
these two boards both use ISL69138, wihch is a X+Y<=7 pwm chip.
both have got total 14 phases, 2 of them are vccsa and vccio, therefore 12 phases for cpu and igpu.

for the taichi, there are 12 little chips on the back of the pcb.
for the extreme4, there are 7 little chips on the back of the pcb.

ASROCK KILLER SLI
http://www.xfastest.com/thread-201097-1-1.html


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## Lass3

The thread on hardwareluxx is great, I hope it's going to be updated


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## asdkj1740

msi gaming pro z370m
using UP9508Q controller, but no way can its public datasheet be found.
the UP9508 (NON Q) public datasheet can be found, which is a 3+2 max mode design.
it is said that the UP9508Q is designed for 4+1 mode.
and the UP9508 has five pins for connecting five external mosfet drivers (or doublers).

there are four litte chips (FH UGF73N) found on msi gaming pro z370m, these should be drivers for the vcore??
and there are one extra little ic which is a doubler UP1961S, probably for the igpu.


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## VRMfreak

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *asdkj1740*
> 
> msi gaming pro z370m
> using UP9508Q controller, but no way can its public datasheet be found.
> the UP9508 (NON Q) public datasheet can be found, which is a 3+2 max mode design.
> it is said that the UP9508Q is designed for 4+1 mode.
> and the UP9508 has five pins for connecting five external mosfet drivers (or doublers).
> 
> there are four litte chips (FH UGF73N) found on msi gaming pro z370m, these should be drivers for the vcore??
> and there are one extra little ic which is a doubler UP1961S, probably for the igpu.


They will be doublers for the VCore.
The mosfets arent the crappy Nikos as on Z270, those are some high end onsemi mosfets.
LS should be NTMFS4C024N and HS NTMFS4C029N


----------



## asdkj1740

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *VRMfreak*
> 
> They will be doublers for the VCore.
> The mosfets arent the crappy Nikos as on Z270, those are some high end onsemi mosfets.
> LS should be NTMFS4C024N and HS NTMFS4C029N


do you know the exact model name of this doubler?


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## VRMfreak

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *asdkj1740*
> 
> do you know the exact model name of this doubler?


probably uP1961S


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## asdkj1740

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *VRMfreak*
> 
> probably uP1961S


um... i doubt that..
why dont simply use the same doubler chip of igpu on the vcore..

and those are not from onsemiconductor, but 69, namely ubiq.


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## br0da

@αC: Impressive post, awesome!
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AlphaC*
> 
> My guess is 4+3 PWM controller doubled to 8+6 , I'm not sure why they wrote 12 phases unless it is 6+2 doubled to 12+2


I'd guess it's a 8+4+1+1 since I can't find any other converters for VCCIO and VCCSA but that wouldn't fit the doubler sheme.









Edit: I'm going to update this post and the hardwareluxx list as soon as I can but atm I'm quite busy and there's a huge amount of info that needs to be added.

Edit2:
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AlphaC*
> 
> *MSI Z370 Pro Carbon using Onsemi*
> https://www.kitguru.net/components/motherboard/ryan-martin/msi-z370-gaming-pro-carbon-ac-motherboard-review/3/
> " There are 12 NTMFS4C024N and 10 NTMFS4C029N MOSFET units on the high- and low-side, respectively, closely located to the CPU power delivery system, both provided by ON Semiconductor."
> 
> back has 3 doublers I think
> Datasheets: http://www.onsemi.com/PowerSolutions/product.do?id=NTMFS4C024N , http://www.onsemi.com/PowerSolutions/product.do?id=NTMFS4C029N


Due to mosfet count per phase I'd expect this to run in 4+1 mode with one doubler used for VCCGT (can be seen in the picture near the inductor).
I'd agree with asdkj1740's interpretation of the cheap MSI design.

Edit3: I'm drowning in Reviews!
http://www.coolpc.com.tw/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=70&t=243608&sid=5953aa46427649d74420df2cd02cb957
-> Intersil drivers on the backside of the Taichi:

I still don't get how this design works.









http://www.coolpc.com.tw/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=70&t=243595&sid=5953aa46427649d74420df2cd02cb957
http://www.coolpc.com.tw/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=70&t=243584&sid=5953aa46427649d74420df2cd02cb957
https://www.chiphell.com/article-18765-1.html
https://www.overclockers.ua/motherboard/asus-rog-strix-z370-e-gaming/


----------



## AlphaC

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Zyther*
> 
> I dont know a whole lot about VRM, but i was looking at maybe getting this board and trying to get a decent OC. what does it VRM look like, also looks like this board uses alot more power then other z370s


IMHO the Taichi is the same price and comes with wifi + audio AMP and supposedly better VRM components (if it's the Fairchild FDPC5030SG ones as on Fatal1ty pro)
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *asdkj1740*
> 
> ASRock Extreme4
> http://www.xfastest.com/forum.php?mod=viewthread&tid=201096&cp=1
> 
> ASROCK TAICHI
> http://www.xfastest.com/thread-201072-1-1.html
> 
> the extreme 4 and taichi have got some strange power design to me...
> these two boards both use ISL69138, wihch is a X+Y<=7 pwm chip.
> both have got total 14 phases, 2 of them are vccsa and vccio, therefore 12 phases for cpu and igpu.
> 
> for the taichi, there are 12 little chips on the back of the pcb.
> for the extreme4, there are 7 little chips on the back of the pcb.
> 
> ASROCK KILLER SLI
> http://www.xfastest.com/thread-201097-1-1.html


Back of the board has doublers.

Also this confirms the Killer SLI is bad. It doesn't even have USB 3.1 gen2 , dual BIOS, or ALC1220, so for the $10 price difference to the Extreme4 it is really bad.

The VRM is at least $20 upgrade , audio is minimal (maybe $10) , USB 3.1 probably $15-20 based on add-in card pricing.

The Taichi is using Fairchild FDPC5030SG parts while the Extreme4 looks to use Sinopower SM7341EH.

FAIRCHILD http://www.onsemi.com/PowerSolutions/product.do?id=FDPC5030SG
Channel 1
RDS(on) = 5.0mΩ @ V_GS = 10V , I_D = 17A
RDS(on) = 6.5mΩ @ V_GS = 4.5V , I_D = 14A
2ns rise time (10ns max), 2ns fall time (10ns max)
Channel 2
2.4mΩ @ V_GS = 10V , I_D = 25A
3.0mΩ @ V_GS = 4.5V , I_D = 22A
4ns rise time (10ns max) , 3ns fall time (10ns max)

SINOPOWER SM7341EH www.sinopowersemi.com/temp/SM7341EHKP_datasheet.pdf
Channel 1
30V/24A,
RDS(ON) = 3.9mΩ (max.) @ V_GS = 10V
RDS(ON) = 6.5mΩ (max.) @ V_GS = 4.5V
9.6ns rise time, 19ns fall time
Channel 2
30V/44A,
RDS(ON) = 1.2mΩ (max.) @ V_GS =10V *<--- the marketing number comes from here*
RDS(ON) = 2mΩ (max.) @ V_GS =4.5V
14ns rise time, 25ns fall time

asdkj1740 , the ubiq parts might be what are used on MSI GPUs.
QN3101 high side , QN3107 low side seems to be what is on Zotac's GTX 1080 Ti amp


----------



## asdkj1740

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *br0da*
> 
> Edit3: I'm drowning in Reviews!
> http://www.coolpc.com.tw/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=70&t=243608&sid=5953aa46427649d74420df2cd02cb957
> -> Intersil drivers on the backside of the Taichi:
> 
> I still don't get how this design works.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.coolpc.com.tw/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=70&t=243595&sid=5953aa46427649d74420df2cd02cb957
> http://www.coolpc.com.tw/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=70&t=243584&sid=5953aa46427649d74420df2cd02cb957
> https://www.chiphell.com/article-18765-1.html
> https://www.overclockers.ua/motherboard/asus-rog-strix-z370-e-gaming/


exactly, i have no idea why on the back of the taichi pcb there are 12 little ic which seem to be all drivers...

https://www.intersil.com/content/dam/intersil/documents/isl6/isl6596.pdf
should be this model..
it is just a driver, not a doubler, i guess...
although it states that it can driver two dual n channel mosfet, there are two pin (UGATE (Pin 1) & LGATE (Pin 5)) for high side and low side respectively.

the question then is, where the f are those doublers! there is no way for that pwm controller to drive true 8+4 phases.


----------



## mouacyk

Anyone know if the VRM on the Asus Strix Z370 ITX is upgraded from the Z270 version? Considering the higher power draw of Z370, I certainly hope it is but need to know specifics. If anyone can share its VRM details, thanks.


----------



## asdkj1740

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AlphaC*
> 
> IMHO the Taichi is the same price and comes with wifi + audio AMP and supposedly better VRM components (if it's the Fairchild FDPC5030SG ones as on Fatal1ty pro)
> Back of the board has doublers.
> 
> Also this confirms the Killer SLI is bad. It doesn't even have USB 3.1 gen2 , dual BIOS, or ALC1220, so for the $10 price difference to the Extreme4 it is really bad.
> 
> The VRM is at least $20 upgrade , audio is minimal (maybe $10) , USB 3.1 probably $15-20 based on add-in card pricing.
> 
> The Taichi is using Fairchild FDPC5030SG parts while the Extreme4 looks to use Sinopower SM7341EH.
> 
> FAIRCHILD http://www.onsemi.com/PowerSolutions/product.do?id=FDPC5030SG
> Channel 1
> RDS(on) = 5.0mΩ @ V_GS = 10V , I_D = 17A
> RDS(on) = 6.5mΩ @ V_GS = 4.5V , I_D = 14A
> 2ns rise time (10ns max), 2ns fall time (10ns max)
> Channel 2
> 2.4mΩ @ V_GS = 10V , I_D = 25A
> 3.0mΩ @ V_GS = 4.5V , I_D = 22A
> 4ns rise time (10ns max) , 3ns fall time (10ns max)
> 
> SINOPOWER SM7341EH www.sinopowersemi.com/temp/SM7341EHKP_datasheet.pdf
> Channel 1
> 30V/24A,
> RDS(ON) = 3.9mΩ (max.) @ V_GS = 10V
> RDS(ON) = 6.5mΩ (max.) @ V_GS = 4.5V
> 9.6ns rise time, 19ns fall time
> Channel 2
> 30V/44A,
> RDS(ON) = 1.2mΩ (max.) @ V_GS =10V *<--- the marketing number comes from here*
> RDS(ON) = 2mΩ (max.) @ V_GS =4.5V
> 14ns rise time, 25ns fall time
> 
> asdkj1740 , the ubiq parts might be what are used on MSI GPUs.
> QN3101 high side , QN3107 low side seems to be what is on Zotac's GTX 1080 Ti amp


asrock has been cheaping out on audio part in recent generation..


----------



## AlphaC

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *asdkj1740*
> 
> exactly, i have no idea why on the back of the taichi pcb there are 12 little ic which seem to be all drivers...
> 
> https://www.intersil.com/content/dam/intersil/documents/isl6/isl6596.pdf
> should be this model..
> it is just a driver, not a doubler, i guess...
> although it states that it can driver two dual n channel mosfet, there are two pin (UGATE (Pin 1) & LGATE (Pin 5)) for high side and low side respectively.
> 
> the question then is, where the f are those doublers! there is no way for that pwm controller to drive true 8+4 phases.


datasheet says "Drives Two N-Channel MOSFETs"


See

https://www.allaboutcircuits.com/textbook/reference/chpt-9/transistors-insulated-gate-field-effect-igfet-or-mosfet/


----------



## VRMfreak

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *br0da*
> 
> @αC: Impressive post, awesome!
> I'd guess it's a 8+4+1+1 since I can't find any other converters for VCCIO and VCCSA but that wouldn't fit the doubler sheme.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Edit: I'm going to update this post and the hardwareluxx list as soon as I can but atm I'm quite busy and there's a huge amount of info that needs to be added.
> 
> Edit2:
> Due to mosfet count per phase I'd expect this to run in 4+1 mode with one doubler used for VCCGT (can be seen in the picture near the inductor).
> I'd agree with asdkj1740's interpretation of the cheap MSI design.
> 
> Edit3: I'm drowning in Reviews!
> http://www.coolpc.com.tw/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=70&t=243608&sid=5953aa46427649d74420df2cd02cb957
> -> Intersil drivers on the backside of the Taichi:
> 
> I still don't get how this design works.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.coolpc.com.tw/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=70&t=243595&sid=5953aa46427649d74420df2cd02cb957
> http://www.coolpc.com.tw/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=70&t=243584&sid=5953aa46427649d74420df2cd02cb957
> https://www.chiphell.com/article-18765-1.html
> https://www.overclockers.ua/motherboard/asus-rog-strix-z370-e-gaming/


So Asus Z370 Strix E/F have worse VRM than X370-F? I mean, i have 10 IR3555s and this uses classic HS+LS config with the SiRa fets.


----------



## HKPolice

Here's the spec sheet for the mosfets on the Gigabyte Aorus Gaming 7: https://www.intersil.com/content/dam/Intersil/documents/isl9/isl99227-27b.pdf

Efficiency looks impressive but the rise/fall times seem a bit slow? I'm not sure which specs are important.


----------



## VRMfreak

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *HKPolice*
> 
> Here's the spec sheet for the mosfets on the Gigabyte Aorus Gaming 7: https://www.intersil.com/content/dam/Intersil/documents/isl9/isl99227-27b.pdf
> 
> Efficiency looks impressive but the rise/fall times seem a bit slow? I'm not sure which specs are important.


The times are related to efficiency, so you just look on the graph and you're gtg.
Tr/Tf are used in HS switching heat loss calculation which goes like this: Psw= Vin * 0.5 * Iout * (Tr+Tf)s * Fsw
The times dont really matter on LowSide


----------



## br0da

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AlphaC*
> 
> The Taichi is using Fairchild FDPC5030SG parts while the Extreme4 looks to use Sinopower SM7341EH.


What is the guess about the Extreme4 FETs based on?








Quote:


> Originally Posted by *asdkj1740*
> 
> it is just a driver, not a doubler, i guess...
> [...]
> the question then is, where the f are those doublers! there is no way for that pwm controller to drive true 8+4 phases.


Yes these are just 12 drivers.
My guess is that the controller runs in 4+2 mode, ASRock is using each PWM signal for two phases.
The last two phases are for VCCIO and VCCSA.

Having @Nickshih here for clearing things up would be great.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *VRMfreak*
> 
> So Asus Z370 Strix E/F have worse VRM than X370-F?


Yes you are right about that.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *VRMfreak*
> 
> The times dont really matter on LowSide


For lowside it matters as much as for highside.


----------



## VRMfreak

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *br0da*
> 
> For lowside it matters as much as for highside.


But when lowside has most of its losses as resistive (conductive), then the Tr/Tf have less impact on the overall efficiency compared to highside (???????)


----------



## br0da

Okay of course the impact of switching losses on the overall efficiency is lower if the conductive losses are ways too high.








But still each MOSFET in a buck converter is getting switched two times each period no matter if it's used as a control or sync FET.


----------



## Zyther

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *VRMfreak*
> 
> So Asus Z370 Strix E/F have worse VRM than X370-F? I mean, i have 10 IR3555s and this uses classic HS+LS config with the SiRa fets.


Aww I was really hoping to maybe get one of the z370e or f

How bad are the vrms for over clocking on it. Is it just they will use more power?


----------



## AlphaC

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *br0da*
> 
> What is the guess about the Extreme4 FETs based on?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes these are just 12 drivers.
> My guess is that the controller runs in 4+2 mode, ASRock is using each PWM signal for two phases.
> The last two phases are for VCCIO and VCCSA.
> 
> Having @Nickshih here for clearing things up would be great.
> Yes you are right about that.
> For lowside it matters as much as for highside.


http://www.xfastest.com/forum.php?mod=viewthread&tid=201096&cp=4

says Sinopowers on Extreme4



I think the dual output Intersil drivers are used because amperage ratings on the Fairchild / Sinopower powerblocks aren't very high.


----------



## br0da

Oh how couldn't I see this pic? Thx!


----------



## VRMfreak

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Zyther*
> 
> Aww I was really hoping to maybe get one of the z370e or f
> 
> How bad are the vrms for over clocking on it. Is it just they will use more power?


I am not sure how much power does overclocked 8700K need.
I know its around 160W with reasonable OC and 180W+ with hard OC.
Considering voltages go from 1.1-1.3V, the current going through the VRM will be at least 100A, most likely 120A or more.
I will do calculations for 100A, 120A and 140A and see the heat.


----------



## AlphaC

I've seen the i7-8700k @ 5GHz systems use more power than R7 1800x @ 4GHz on a number of sites. However, I think that 4.7GHz with 1.25V-1.3V would be a realistic expectation given boards with Multi-core enhancement use those sort of voltages.


5GHz 1.28V : https://www.overclock3d.net/reviews/cpu_mainboard/intel_coffee_lake_i7_8700k_review/3
5 GHz 1.35V http://lab501.ro/procesoare-chipseturi/english-review-new-charts-intel-core-i7-8700k-intel-core-i5-8600k-coffee-lake-aorus-z370-ultra-gaming/13
5 Ghz 1.344V https://news.xfastest.com/review/41730/intel-core-i7-8700k-review/
* Prime95 @ 4.7GHz over 90 C = +200W over idle
5.2GHz @ 1.356V https://www.computerbase.de/2017-10/intel-coffee-lake-8700k-8400-8350k-8100-test/7/
51x @ 1.456V http://www.hardwarecanucks.com/forum/hardware-canucks-reviews/76162-intel-coffee-lake-i7-8700k-i5-8400-review-15.html
4.9 @1.296V https://www.conseil-config.com/2017/test-intel-core-i7-8700k/2/#cmtoc_anchor_id_2
Quote:


> When using software that does not "pull" too much on the processor the Core i7 8700K happens to stay at 4.7 GHz. So far no worries to be done at first, on the other hand we can see that the TDP limit is exceeded with 187 Watts at the plug, the processor going from 95 Watts to almost 132 Watts. The temperature is also rather high with some cores at 80 °. We are already here far from the "normal" performances of the Core i7 8700K



130W @ 5GHz http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/intel-coffee-lake-i7-8700k-cpu,5252-12.html
5GHz @ 1.408V http://www.coolaler.com/threads/gigabyte-z370-aorus-gaming7-intel-core-i7-8700k-i5-8600k-5ghz-vs-ryzen-5-1600-4ghz.347524/
5.2 GHz with 1.425 volt https://uk.hardware.info/reviews/7602/23/intel-core-i7-8700k--i5-8600k--i5-8400-coffee-lake-review-affordable-six-cores-overclocking-i5-8600k-a-i7-8700k
4.9GHz @ 1.4V https://www.gamersnexus.net/hwreviews/3076-intel-i7-8700k-review-vs-ryzen-streaming-gaming-overclocking/page-2
not delidding = 90 C at abut 125W http://www.pcgameshardware.de/Coffee-Lake-Codename-266775/Tests/Core-i7-8700K-i5-8600K-i5-8400-Test-Review-1240339/galerie/2798249/
" 1.33V I used to reach 5.0GHz with 3200MHz memory, temperatures peaked at 86°C with the 280mm liquid cooler" https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2017/10/intel-coffee-lake-8700k-review/2/
~135W package power at 5.0GHz 1.32V https://www.tweaktown.com/reviews/8363/intel-core-i7-8700k-i5-8400-coffee-lake-cpu-review/index7.html
173W Prime95 5GHz at 1.4V (package hit 100°C) http://www.itocp.com/htmls/18/n-8218-8.html
130W OCCT for 5.1GHz @1.328V https://www.purepc.pl/procesory/test_procesora_intel_core_i7_8700k_premiera_coffee_lake?page=0,22
154W package power for i5-8600K @ 5.2GHz 1.44V or 137W package power for 5.2GHz @1.344V https://hardforum.com/threads/intel-core-i5-8600k-overclock-at-5-2ghz-with-3600mhz-ram.1945332/

4.7GHz MCE =145W https://www.gamersnexus.net/guides/3077-explaining-coffee-lake-turbo-8700k-8600k

If the voltage is lower for same power consumption it means current is even higher. (Volts x Amps = Watts)
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *https://rog.asus.com/articles/maximus-motherboards/breaking-records-with-the-maximus-x-apex-and-i7-8700k/*
> The data we obtain from the binning process is also of interest for ambient cooling. Our Coffee Lake testing revealed that 50% of early 6-core CPUs can achieve 5GHz with water cooling.
> 
> ... Coffee Lake processors rely on conventional power delivery and are capable of running at the limits of liquid nitrogen cooling (-186°C). On both architectures, a 10 Celsius drop in temperatures improves overclocking headroom by at least 100MHz.


Gigabyte Z370 Gaming 7 = ISL69138 PWM , ISL6617A , intersil Smart Power Stage ISL99227B


http://www.itocp.com/htmls/18/n-8218-3.html


----------



## ReFFrs

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AlphaC*
> 
> Gigabyte Z370 Gaming 7 = ISL69138 PWM , ISL6617A , intersil Smart Power Stage ISL99227B
> 
> 
> http://www.itocp.com/htmls/18/n-8218-3.html


Is it good or bad? Please some analysis.


----------



## AlphaC

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ReFFrs*
> 
> Is it good or bad? Please some analysis.


It's very good. Better than the TI NexFET Powerblocks actually.

The ISL99227B has more thermal dissipation due to the exposure of the junction to the heatsink , plus they won electronic innovation awards in 2016. They're actually a bit better than International Rectifier IR3555. They have up to 2MHz switching frequency vs 1.5MHz on NexFETs and 1MHz on IR powerstages.

Generally speaking : Powerstage (integrated driver+high side+low side) such as ISL99227B / IR3555 > Powerblock (high+low side) such as the TI NexFET 87350 , Fairchild dual-N Powertrench, or the Sinopower > separate Powerpak / 2 Low RDS(on) mosfets for high side such as Onsemi 4C09N + 4C06N or Vishay Sira19+Sira12

Texas Instruments diagram


http://www.ti.com/lsds/ti/power-management/power-mosfet-module-overview.page

Right now it's looking like for VRM (subject to change if some boards are using 2 low side mosfets aka "doubled low side"):
*TOP (LN2 , monoblocks)*= Gigabyte Z370 SOC Force (unreleased, found on hwbot records ... on air it is not a great choice) , Gigabyte Z370 Gaming 7 due to iSL99227B (60A rating) + ISL6617 doubler ... top audio, overkill VRM , Asus ROG APEX (a record holder on LN2) using 50A Optimos + ir3599 doubler, MSI Z370 Godlike (using 60A IR3555 overkill VRM +IR3599 doubler poor price/perf regardless)... likely Asus Z370 Maximus X Extreme too
*Upper tier (custom water)* = Asrock Z370 Fatal1ty Gaming Pro i7 (_whatever the full name is_, the expensive one) , Asrock Z370 Taichi using Fairchild Dual-N (low+high side) when heatsinked properly with heatpipe (limited to about 35A per mosfet @ 100°C), Asus Formula/Code/Hero boards using 50A Optimos

*Midrange <$200* (All-in-one watercooling/dual tower air cooling)= Asrock Z370 Extreme4 / K6 using Fairchild or Sinopower 2-in-1 / "DSM"/ low+high side ; EVGA FTW using 35A DrMos
*Low Midrange , should be $160ish or less* (Asus z270-A level VRM)=Asus Z370-A , Asus STRIX Z370-E/F /G , Gigabyte Z370 Gaming 5 , MSI Z370 Pro carbon , MSI z370 M5

*Entry* (sub 150W probably / 120mm fan cooler level, should be $120 or less if VRM is the only concern) = Gigabyte Z370 UD3H (push pin heatsink), Asrock Z370 Killer SLI (push pin heatsink , cut down features is another issue on top of regular Sinopowers) , MSI z370 SLI PLUS (uPi controller + Ubiq mosfets) , MSI Z370 Krait (uPi controller + Ubiq mosfets) , MSI Z370 Tomahawk (uPi controller + Ubiq mosfets ; ALC892)
Not suitable for really overclocking unless it's not an i7 (at best MCE/ multi-core turbo only) = Asus TUF Pro Gaming / z370 STRIX H, Gigabyte Z370 Ultra Gaming , Gigabyte Z370 Gaming 3 & K3, Gigabyte Z370 XP SLI, MSI Z370 Gaming Plus, etc
<4 phases , or partially Unheatsinked (don't buy) :Asus Z370-P / TUF Z370 Plus, MSI Z370-A Pro , MSI z370 PC Pro, Asrock Z370 Pro4 , Gigabyte Z370 HD3, Gigabyte Z370M D3H , etc

Dec 28,2017 revised chart:




Spoiler: Beat those uptime goals! ;)







* Be advised the Taichi has a very good memory VRM capable of 4333MHz+ RAM speeds , on par with ASUS ROG APEX. The highest QVL on the Gigabyte Gaming 7 and MSI Godlike are 4133MHz.

*This chart is arranged primarily by VRM components for CPU.*


----------



## br0da

Nice overview, I've just quoted it in #1.









More reviews:
ASUS ROG STRIX Z370-I Gaming: http://www.coolpc.com.tw/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=70&t=243669&sid=405d29e722a23bcead90158840da6006
MSI Z370 Gaming Pro Carbon AC: https://www.overclockers.ru/lab/87106_2/obzor-i-testirovanie-materinskoj-platy-msi-z370-gaming-pro-carbon-ac.html#6
Colorful iGame Z370-X: http://coolaler.com/threads/cpumark99-ecs-i-game-z370-x-intel-core-i7-8700k-i5-8600-5ghz-vs-ryzen-5-1600-4ghz.347526/


----------



## AlphaC

z370 Godlike may be good for LN2 but not for ambient



https://www.overclock3d.net/reviews/cpu_mainboard/msi_z370_godlike_gaming_review/14

embarrassing VRM temps for a $400+ board


----------



## VRMfreak

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AlphaC*
> 
> It's very good. Better than the TI NexFET Powerblocks actually.
> 
> The ISL99227B has more thermal dissipation due to the exposure of the junction to the heatsink , plus they won electronic innovation awards in 2016. They're actually a bit better than International Rectifier IR3555. They have up to 2MHz switching frequency vs 1.5MHz on NexFETs and 1MHz on IR powerstages.


Does max Fsw matter on a motherboard that much?
I mean, i wanna see someone using 1KHz on a mobo except LN2/LHe2
Also, what temperature would you see on IR3555 with 21°C ambient and 10-12A power draw?
Thanks!


----------



## AlphaC

Depends on volts, reviews I've seen put the I7-8700k at about 1.2-1.45V for stock & overclocked.

Based on IR3550 data (IR won't send me IR3555 datasheet







):
At 10A it's 1W power loss , at 15A it's about 1.5W
Output voltage 1.5V = 1.12x multiplier
Assuming f_sw = 400kHz , inductor = 150nH (if it's R15)

R_theta JC top = 14.3 °C/W
R_theta JA = 20.2 °C/W

+34 °C is likely if heatsink has no fins and is minimally helpful (59°C at 25°C ambient , 54°C for your 21 ambient scenario)

This assumes your PCB is using about 1 sq. in of 2oz copper for each Powerstage

br0da, maybe I put MSI Pro carbon too high









Z370 Pro Carbon & friends look like 3 phases doubled to 6. Asus Z370-A is 4 doubled to 8 as far as I know.

Asrock Z370 Killer is a lower tier board based on features though & heatsink uses push pins


----------



## dfgdfg

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AlphaC*
> 
> [...] Gaming 5 due to iSL99227B [...]


Have a source? Can't find high res pictures or a review of this board.


----------



## VRMfreak

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AlphaC*
> 
> Depends on volts, reviews I've seen put the I7-8700k at about 1.2-1.45V for stock & overclocked.
> 
> Based on IR3550 data (IR won't send me IR3555 datasheet
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ):
> At 10A it's 1W power loss , at 15A it's about 1.5W
> Output voltage 1.5V = 1.12x multiplier
> Assuming f_sw = 400kHz , inductor = 150nH (if it's R15)
> 
> R_theta JC top = 14.3 °C/W
> R_theta JA = 20.2 °C/W
> 
> +34 °C is likely if heatsink has no fins and is minimally helpful (59°C at 25°C ambient , 54°C for your 21 ambient scenario)
> 
> This assumes your PCB is using about 1 sq. in of 2oz copper for each Powerstage
> 
> br0da, maybe I put MSI Pro carbon too high
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Z370 Pro Carbon & friends look like 3 phases doubled to 6. Asus Z370-A is 4 doubled to 8 as far as I know.
> 
> Asrock Z370 Killer is a lower tier board based on features though & heatsink uses push pins


I was OCing R5 1600 today and saw maximum 48°C on the back of the PCB, the "sensor" was reporting max 50°C, the 12A power draw would be for such load.
My mobo has a decent "heatsink" so the temps were 5°C lower than you wrote, also, it uses R68 chokes, so i suppose 680nH ?
Also, how would the cheap Z370s compare to cheap X370s like MSI "8" phase Niko vs the Z370 solution. More efficient?


----------



## AlphaC

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *dfgdfg*
> 
> Have a source? Can't find high res pictures or a review of this board.


Not yet,
Z370 Gaming 7 is the same layout : Gaming 5 has no Killer LAN , no ESS audio DAC, & no USB 3.1 front panel header

Z270X and X370 boards Gaming 5 have the same VRM as Gaming (K)7

Marketing page for z370 Gaming 5 has nothing on the VRM so you're right, it's not good to assume sometimes







.

The funny thing is I could hop to Microcenter and pick one of them up to check myself (I'd probably buy a Taichi though), but with the high prices & lack of availability of i5-8600k / i7-8700k I wouldn't.

Also see Gigabyte Matt's post
http://www.overclock.net/t/1638955/z370-z390-vrm-discussion-thread/10#post_26372812

At current insane prices across the board for Z370, it isn't going to be a regrettable purchase though *cough* Godlike Gaming *cough*.

To be honest I find the Killer LAN that's put on the Gaming 7 to be more of a liability than a boon.

Puget systems has been using it for testing:
https://www.pugetsystems.com/labs/articles/Premiere-Pro-CC-2017-1-2-CPU-Performance-Core-i7-8700K-i5-8600K-i3-8350K-1047/

edit: in the EU Gigabyte is bribing early adopter people with Steam wallet codes https://www.overclock3d.net/news/cpu_mainboard/gigabyte_is_offering_free_steam_wallet_codes_with_select_z370_aorus_motherboards/1

& USA : goo.gl/YLRwE4 --- Gigabyte promo on gaming 7 for 10% off on Newegg

edit: be aware that this may be wrong and that it could be 4+2 doubled to 8+2 using normal OnSemi mosfets or something , which would put it at more of midrange board (like ASUS Z370-E STRIX / MSI Z370 Pro Carbon / etc)


----------



## Lass3

Have you seen or heard anything about the Asus ROG Strix Z370-G Gaming AC in terms of power phases / VRM. Can't find any reviews or info. Maybe I'm blind.

I need a mATX board this time. Only other real choice is MSI Z370M Gaming PRO AC.

Not too many other Z370 mATX boards right now. AsRock's seem too low end.


----------



## AlphaC

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Lass3*
> 
> Have you seen or heard anything about the Asus ROG Strix Z370-G Gaming AC in terms of power phases / VRM. Can't find any reviews or info. Maybe I'm blind.
> 
> I need a mATX board this time. Only other real choice is MSI Z370M Gaming PRO AC.
> 
> Not too many other Z370 mATX boards right now. AsRock's seem too low end.


Definitely would go with STRIX G over the MSI ones.

It probably is the same as ASUS' Z270 one with ONsemi 4C09 and 4C06. Asus is pretty lazy hardware R&D wise lately, I guess they prefer reeling in the money to develop BIOS.


----------



## br0da

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AlphaC*
> 
> z370 Godlike may be good for LN2 but not for ambient
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [...]
> embarrassing VRM temps for a $400+ board


I smell NIKO PK616BA and PK632BA.








Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AlphaC*
> 
> Z370 Pro Carbon & friends look like 3 phases doubled to 6.


I'd bet it's 4 doubled to 8.


----------



## ogider

Thanks all for nice info in this thread.
I gonna buy Z370 Taichi instead Asus z370 Hero.

At last Asrock change something more than appearance and light


----------



## josephimports

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AlphaC*
> 
> Not yet,
> Z370 Gaming 7 is the same layout : Gaming 5 has no Killer LAN , no ESS audio DAC, & no USB 3.1 front panel header


Power stages may be the same, but the inductors appear to be different. Must be what they mean with " server class design" for the 7.



Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!









Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!


----------



## AlphaC

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *josephimports*
> 
> Power stages may be the same, but the inductors appear to be different. Must be what they mean with " server class design" for the 7.
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!


Then it's quite possible that it's 4+2 doubled to 8+2 , with OnSemi. From looking at the board pictures again, I will adjust previous post.

*MSI Z370 M5* (has debug LED too)
https://level1techs.com/article/motherboard-overview/msi-z370-gaming-m5

Controller uP9508Q: http://www.upi-semi.com/files/1828/db0b1f56-5ad4-11e6-888f-c5d1c773e936
FETs 4C024: http://www.onsemi.com/pub/Collateral/NTMFS4C024N-D.PDF
FETs 4C029: https://www.onsemi.com/pub/Collateral/NTMFS4C029N-D.PDF

*MSI Z370 SLI PLUS*
https://level1techs.com/article/motherboard-overview/msi-z370-sli-plus
Ubiq parts , Controller uP9508
Mosfets: QN3103 , QN3107


*MSI Z370 Tomahawk*
https://level1techs.com/article/motherboard-overview/msi-z370-tomahawk
Ubiq parts

Controller: http://www.upi-semi.com/files/1828/db0b1f56-5ad4-11e6-888f-c5d1c773e936

MSI Z370 PC Pro (wasn't worth looking at anyway)
https://level1techs.com/article/motherboard-overview/msi-z370-pc-pro
Controller uP9508: http://www.upi-semi.com/files/1828/db0b1f56-5ad4-11e6-888f-c5d1c773e936
FETs SM4337: http://www.sinopowersemi.com/temp/SM4337NSKP_datasheet.pdf
FETs SM4503: http://www.sinopowersemi.com/temp/SM4503NHKP_datasheet.pdf

MSI Z370 Gaming Plus appears to be the same
https://level1techs.com/article/motherboard-overview/msi-z370-gaming-plus


----------



## Telstar

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Lass3*
> 
> I need a mATX board this time.


If you can wait, evga announced a mATX board that looks very good.


----------



## CrazyElf

I suspect that if a Gigabyte Z370 Gaming 9 comes out, then we will see that take on the top alongside the Z370 SOC Force. It will probably feature a PLX PEX 8747 again. VRM on the Gaming 9 was 16 + 4 + 3 in IR3553 configuration.

I am curious if we will see the Fairchild 55A Mosfets come out on any of the newer Z370 boards.
http://www.mouser.com/ds/2/149/FDMF5823DC-269138.pdf

OT, but I always wondered why the big HEDT boards don't feature PEX 8764 for even more lanes.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *br0da*
> 
> I smell NIKO PK616BA and PK632BA.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'd bet it's 4 doubled to 8.


The Godlike might be ON Semi, only more stages. MSI's Z270 XPower had a decent VRM for the $300 USD price point.



IR3555 in a 10+4 configuration. Not the absolute balls to the walls, but still very worthy of a flagship board.

If the Godlike is as underwhelming as we expect, then MSI's designs are going backwards, not forwards.









Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AlphaC*
> 
> Definitely would go with STRIX G over the MSI ones.
> 
> It probably is the same as ASUS' Z270 one with ONsemi 4C09 and 4C06. Asus is pretty lazy hardware R&D wise lately, I guess they prefer reeling in the money to develop BIOS.


Sigh many of the manufacturers seem like they are coasting these days.

MSI has not released the level of board I expected, which was another 10+4 IR3555 or even better yet, substituting the PowerIR for ISL stages. Asus seems to be coasting too.

Amongst the crop of recent features, perhaps the best one has been the metal reinforcements of the PCIe lanes, especially as GPUs have gotten heavier. I'm less impressed with the LEDs, which really don't add performance, but take away money that could be used elsewhere.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AlphaC*
> 
> The Z370 platform isn't a longterm socket, so I think for most users the best bet is to get a low-midrange board with USB 3.1 gen 2 , ALC1220, Thunderbolt support (the main reason to go Intel over AMD) , half decent VRM (unless delidding), and a Debug LED if possible for troubleshooting. From what I see, the Gigabyte boards except the Gaming 7 and Gaming 5 are using On Semi parts that can only push about 25A without heating up. (the Lab501 review has 4C06N it appears)
> 
> I understand that most of the "gaming" userbase wouldn't know an inductor if it slapped them in the face. However, Gigabyte has to realize that these Coffee Lake CPUs are going to be more power hungry than the Kaby Lake CPUs.
> 
> On the geizhals.eu price comparison tool , the Gigabyte Gaming 7 is showing up as € 355.65 , while the Gaming 5 is listed as € 297.69. ShopBLT shows the Gaming 7 at $271.29 and the Gaming 5 at $219.54.


Overall, Gigabyte may very well have the best boards this generation, at least from a VRM standpoint. One piece of advice, I'd got with the Intel LAN already built into the chip set and an 8265 Wifi card, rather than the e2500 Killer and 1535 wifi. The Killer tends to have driver issues (I'm using on right now







), use higher CPU load, sometimes introduces DPC latency. I guess the 2.4 GHz wifi range is a bit better than on Intel, but I have found Intel's 5 GHz wifi to be better. Also, the 1535 is known to drop wifi connections when there are heavy downloads. I just wish this whole Killer trend would go away.

As far as this platform, we already know it is a very stop-gap platform, possibly rushed against Ryzen. In H2 of 2018, there will be a mainstream 8 core platform, which will ultimately be Intel's answer.

Of course, there will not be an answer to abandoning the use of solder, and it seems they are taking features like per core turbo away.


----------



## Zyther

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *VRMfreak*
> 
> I am not sure how much power does overclocked 8700K need.
> I know its around 160W with reasonable OC and 180W+ with hard OC.
> Considering voltages go from 1.1-1.3V, the current going through the VRM will be at least 100A, most likely 120A or more.
> I will do calculations for 100A, 120A and 140A and see the heat.


So is the only issue with say the asus Z370-E the VRMs might just produce to much heat?


----------



## asdkj1740

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AlphaC*
> 
> Then it's quite possible that it's 4+2 doubled to 8+2 , with OnSemi. From looking at the board pictures again, I will adjust previous post.
> 
> *MSI Z370 M5* (has debug LED too)
> https://level1techs.com/article/motherboard-overview/msi-z370-gaming-m5
> 
> Controller uP9508Q: http://www.upi-semi.com/files/1828/db0b1f56-5ad4-11e6-888f-c5d1c773e936
> FETs 4C024: http://www.onsemi.com/pub/Collateral/NTMFS4C024N-D.PDF
> FETs 4C029: https://www.onsemi.com/pub/Collateral/NTMFS4C029N-D.PDF
> 
> *MSI Z370 SLI PLUS*
> https://level1techs.com/article/motherboard-overview/msi-z370-sli-plus
> Ubiq parts , Controller uP9508
> Mosfets: QN3103 , QN3107
> 
> 
> *MSI Z370 Tomahawk*
> https://level1techs.com/article/motherboard-overview/msi-z370-tomahawk
> Ubiq parts
> 
> Controller: http://www.upi-semi.com/files/1828/db0b1f56-5ad4-11e6-888f-c5d1c773e936
> 
> MSI Z370 PC Pro (wasn't worth looking at anyway)
> https://level1techs.com/article/motherboard-overview/msi-z370-pc-pro
> Controller uP9508: http://www.upi-semi.com/files/1828/db0b1f56-5ad4-11e6-888f-c5d1c773e936
> FETs SM4337: http://www.sinopowersemi.com/temp/SM4337NSKP_datasheet.pdf
> FETs SM4503: http://www.sinopowersemi.com/temp/SM4503NHKP_datasheet.pdf
> 
> MSI Z370 Gaming Plus appears to be the same
> https://level1techs.com/article/motherboard-overview/msi-z370-gaming-plus


i think only the gaming m5 is using doublers for vcore to achieve 8 phases from 4 phases, as you can see there is one more doubler ic up1961s sit next to the vcore (which is absent on other low end mobos using the same/similar power plan from msi).
meaning that the gaming m5 probably is using up1961s for not just the igpu 2phases doubling but also for the vcore doubling .

other low end mobos under gaming m5 like gaming pro//gaming carbon/sli plus/tomhawk/krait, are probably just using dual choke dual fet design.

any pcb back side pics of the gaming m5??


----------



## asdkj1740

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *br0da*
> 
> I smell NIKO PK616BA and PK632BA.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'd bet it's 4 doubled to 8.


doublers split one pwm signal to 2 for 2 drivers to drive 2 sets of mosfets.
unless the doubler can drive mosfet at the same time meaning no extra physical driver ic is needed, then 1 driver for 2 phases is actually just two phases running in parallel mode: "fake"


----------



## Antsu

So any confirmation on the differences of Gaming 5 vs 7 VRM? I am not particularly interested in the other offerings the 7 has, and do not swim in money right now...


----------



## Cascade

For a budget build, using an i5 8400 + 212 EVO which Z370 board should I get? I was going to get a board, but its in the 'do not buy' ranking, so am now unsure what to do.

Thanks.


----------



## AlphaC

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Cascade*
> 
> For a budget build, using an i5 8400 + 212 EVO which Z370 board should I get? I was going to get a board, but its in the 'do not buy' ranking, so am now unsure what to do.
> 
> Thanks.


Where are you located? When I wrote "do not buy" , I assume the target audience is OCN users who want to push their i7-8700k CPUs past 150W (more than a 212 Evo can take at ~ 1200RPM), not *locked i5-8400 with 65W TDP*.









Of course if you want to take a chance that i5-8400 works with "non-K" overclocking methods (i.e. baseclock overclocking) then it would be wise to buy something more midrange when it goes on sale. Being an early adopter generally doesn't work for your wallet when availability is low. (https://forum.level1techs.com/t/exploring-the-price-performance-advantage-of-bclk-overclocking-on-locked-coffee-lake-cpus/120099)


----------



## br0da

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *asdkj1740*
> 
> doublers split one pwm signal to 2 for 2 drivers to drive 2 sets of mosfets.
> unless the doubler can drive mosfet at the same time meaning no extra physical driver ic is needed, then 1 driver for 2 phases is actually just two phases running in parallel mode: "fake"


I know how phasedoubling works dude, but the uP1961S is an 4x4 QFN IC without a public data sheet and I guess it's working pretty similar to Infineons IR3598.


----------



## Cascade

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AlphaC*
> 
> Where are you located? When I wrote "do not buy" , I assume the target audience is OCN users who want to push their i7-8700k CPUs past 150W (more than a 212 Evo can take at ~ 1200RPM), not *locked i5-8400 with 65W TDP*.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Of course if you want to take a chance that i5-8400 with "non-K" overclocking methods (i.e. baseclock overclocking) then it would be wise to buy something more midrange when it goes on sale. Being an early adopter generally doesn't work for your wallet when availability is low. (https://forum.level1techs.com/t/exploring-the-price-performance-advantage-of-bclk-overclocking-on-locked-coffee-lake-cpus/120099)


That's a great article but it's features a simulated i5-8400 instead of the real thing, so overclocking results may vary with a real i5.

My concern about the i5-8400 and motherboard quality is that in various reviews, with MCE enabled, the 8400 uses way more power in a system than I expected:

https://tpucdn.com/reviews/Intel/Core_i5_8400/images/power_gaming.png

Would you still always recommend heatsinks on motherboard VRM's even for a budget CPU? For example the MSI Z370-A PRO and Asrock Z370 PRO 4 are both very much budget boards, but the MSI Z370-A PRO uses more heatsinks, but then AsRock boards allegedly offer better BLCK overclocking.

Thanks.


----------



## br0da

MSI Godlike Gaming pics:

source: https://www.chiphell.com/article-18759-3.html
I'd say this is 12+4+1+1. The IR35201 seems to run in 6+2 mode, I'd expect to find 8 IR3599 under the backside heatsinks.
PowIRstages look like IR3555 to me?


----------



## Exotzs

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AlphaC*
> 
> It's very good. Better than the TI NexFET Powerblocks actually.
> 
> The ISL99227B has more thermal dissipation due to the exposure of the junction to the heatsink , plus they won electronic innovation awards in 2016. They're actually a bit better than International Rectifier IR3555. They have up to 2MHz switching frequency vs 1.5MHz on NexFETs and 1MHz on IR powerstages.
> 
> Generally speaking : Powerstage (integrated driver+high side+low side) such as ISL99227B / IR3555 > Powerblock (high+low side) such as the TI NexFET 87350 , Fairchild dual-N Powertrench, or the Sinopower > separate Powerpak / 2 Low RDS(on) mosfets for high side such as Onsemi 4C09N + 4C06N or Vishay Sira19+Sira12
> 
> Texas Instruments diagram
> 
> 
> http://www.ti.com/lsds/ti/power-management/power-mosfet-module-overview.page
> 
> Right now it's looking like for VRM (subject to change if some boards are using 2 low side mosfets aka "doubled low side"):
> *TOP* = Gigabyte Z370 SOC Force (unreleased, found on hwbot records) , Gigabyte Z370 Gaming 7 due to iSL99227B (60A rating) ... top audio,top overkill VRM , ... likely Asus Z370 Maximus X Extreme too
> *Upper tier (LN2, custom water)* = Asrock Z370 Fatal1ty Gaming Pro i7 (_whatever the full name is_, the expensive one) , Asrock Z370 Taichi , using Fairchild Dual-N (low+high side) when heatsinked properly with heatpipe (limited to about 35A per mosfet) , Asus ROG APEX (a record holder on LN2) /Formula/Hero boards using TI NexFETs (per marketing page) , MSI Z370 Godlike (until more info it goes here, but it's poor price/perf regardless)
> 
> *Midrange <$200* (All-in-one watercooling/dual tower air cooling)= Asrock Z370 Extreme4 / K6 using Sinopower 2-in-1 / "DSM"/ low+high side
> *Low Midrange , should be $160ish or less* (Asus z270-A level VRM)= Asus Z370E/F /G , Asus Z370-A , Gigabyte Z370 Gaming 5 (here or higher), MSI Z370 Pro carbon , MSI z370 M5
> 
> *Entry* (sub 150W probably / 120mm fan cooler level, should be $120 or less if VRM is the only concern) = Asrock Z370 Killer SLI (cut down features is another issue on top of regular Sinopowers) , MSI z370 SLI PLUS (uPi controller + Ubiq mosfets), MSI Z370 Tomahawk (uPi controller + Ubiq mosfets ; ALC892) , MSI Z370 Krait (uPi controller + Ubiq mosfets)
> Not suitable for really overclocking unless it's not an i7 (at best MCE/ multi-core turbo only) = Asus TUF Pro Gaming / z370 STRIX H, Gigabyte Z370 Ultra Gaming , Gigabyte Z370 Gaming 3 & K3, Gigabyte Z370 XP SLI, MSI Z370 Gaming Plus, etc
> <4 phases , or partially Unheatsinked (don't buy) :Asus Z370-P / TUF Z370 Plus, MSI Z370-A Pro , MSI z370 PC Pro, Asrock Z370 Pro4 , Gigabyte Z370 HD3, Gigabyte Z370M D3H , etc


For someone who wants to keep the option of delidding open for the future, do you recommend the extreme 4 or the taichi? I was wondering if the extreme 4 has decent enough VRMs to handle even more overclocking after a delid. I felt that if I was going to keep this processor for 6+ years then I would go with the taichi but now i'm rethinking it. Any help would be greatly appreciated!


----------



## asdkj1740

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Cascade*
> 
> For a budget build, using an i5 8400 + 212 EVO which Z370 board should I get? I'm not waiting for the B boards if thats the answer


just get the cheapest one,
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *br0da*
> 
> I know how phasedoubling works dude, but the uP1961S is an 4x4 QFN IC without a public data sheet and I guess it's working pretty similar to Infineons IR3598.


yes, there is just the public datasheet for up1961.
assuming up1961s and up1961 are the same/ very similar, both of them can drive and double mosfet.

i just curious about those msi mobos whether they are all doubled to 8 phases or simply running in 4 phases parallel.

the point is that what intel claims about z370 is that coffeelake cpus need more power than kabylake therefore the current z270 may not fit the power requirement.
i dont see any significant improvement on low end z370....if 4 phases for coffelake are enough already..


----------



## AlphaC

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *br0da*
> 
> MSI Godlike Gaming pics:
> 
> source: https://www.chiphell.com/article-18759-3.html
> I'd say this is 12+4+1+1. The IR35201 seems to run in 6+2 mode, I'd expect to find 8 IR3599 under the backside heatsinks.
> PowIRstages look like IR3555 to me?


Either IR3556 or IR3555 probably based on the square-ness (6x6) . If their engineers are out of their minds and succumb to marketing then maybe it is even as low as 40A (https://www.infineon.com/cms/en/product/power/dc-dc-converter/dc-dc-integrated-power-stage/powlrstage-integrated-power-stage/channel.html?channel=5546d4624d6fc3d5014d9fde47ea5bd8).

This leads me to believe that OC3D had very little airflow or it's because the IR3555 just are limited by package thermal resistance.Probably needs a monoblock waterblock to shine.

It's still a _terrible_ value though, when the Gigabyte Z370 Gaming 7 is a full 50% less.

*For people that want the reasoning for recommending boards with heatsinks:*

It seems that the CPUs are using at least 110-130A when overclocked to 5GHz and beyond (155-175W) and 1.4V.

For a board with 4 PWM phases doubled properly to 8 phases of 4C09N and 4C06N (V_GS= 4.5V worst case) I preliminary crunched the numbers (i.e. needs checking) and got ~1.38W per high side fet for switching loss and 1.65W per low side fet (includes deadtime low side switching losses and since it's not doubled low side , use datasheet value for RDS(on)). This doesn't include roughly 0.08W per phase (i.e. high+ low side) of gate drive losses based on the Q_G values.
This means ~88% efficiency and the low side fet should be around 105°C if unheatsinked (assuming ~ 50°C/W thermal resistance , vs the 4.1°C/W for junction to case). I therefore have *no confidence in any board without heatsinks*. It should be better if V_GS=10V gate drive voltage is used.

For theSM4337 +SM4336 combo that hardware.info claims that the Asrock Z370 Killer SLI is using, the high side fet would have about 0.98W losses and low side fet would have about 2.14W losses , so it is lossier than the 4C09+4C06N combo. With 40°C/W junction to ambient it would hit ~110°C without a heatsink. This is worse because the datasheet only specifies V_GS=10V for the rise/fall times.

For MSI's NTMFS4C029N+NTMFS4C024N combo I get about 1.5W per high side fet and 1.24W per low side fet based off V_GS=4.5V. At 48.6°C/W R_theta JA the low side would be roughly 86°C without a heatsink. This is based off typical switching values (Onsemi doesn't provide maximum rise/fall/delay). Therefore try to minimize heatsink thermal resistance , since R_thetaJC = 3.8°C/W for low side. High side fet with thermal resistance to ambient 50.3°C/W = 100°C on high side fet without heatsink. Efficiency is ~88% (optimistic based on "typical" rise/fall/deadtime).

For sira14dp+ Sira12dp combo that supposedly is used on STRIX-E , high side fet would have about 1.5W loss per high side fet and 1.77W per low side fet , based off V_GS=4.5V. It's 28°C/W for the Sira12dp low side and 34°C/W junction to ambient (no heatsink) meaning about 70°C on high side and 75°C on low side fet. However, the Sira12dp and sira14dp use t<10s for junction to ambient, it's not steady state to ambient. Keep in mind in actuality with a heatsink you are looking at 4°C/W junction to case for the Sira12dp + whatever thermal tape + heatsink thermal resistance. This number seems to be inline with OC3D's result of 71°C in Prime95 , so the R_theta JA number is more in line with a mediocre heatsink. (Efficiency ~ 87%)

8x NexFETs , 130A output at 1.4V = about 2.04W loss each per graph (no calculation). Junction to ambient thermal resistance = 50°C/W = 125°C... while junction to case is a mere 20°C/W and junction to PCB is 2°C/W. If we assume thermal tape + heatsink = 0 thermal resistance you're looking at ~ 65°C. The benefit is lower total loss, not lower temps without a heatsink ,which explains the similar VRM temp between Z370-A and ASUS ROG Maximus X HERO. Efficiency ~ 92% at around 16A. I am unsure if Texas Instruments calculates other losses other than switching and conduction.

8X SM7341 as on Extreme4 and the Fatal1ty K6 , 130A output at 1.4V = about 2.5W for both the low & high side side component, after you include the Diode reverse recovery loss or about 2.25W per dual-N mosfet without the Qrr loss. This is about 90% efficient. Thermal resistance is 75°C/W to ambient and 35°C/W for t<10s. Junction to case is 4°C/W for the high side and 2°C/W for the low side. This would easily hit 88°C if not heatsinked based on the lower thermal resistance to ambient (non steady state) and it is not a shoddy VRM.

8X FDPC5030SG as on Taichi gets you about 2.02W per phase of losses, on par with the NexFETs from Texas Instruments. This is using the maximum rise and fall times (10ns) rather than the typical value. Efficiency is around 92%. Thermal resistance junction to ambient is 60°C/W for the high side portion and 55°C/W for the low side portion. Naturally it cannot be used without a heatsink. Thermal resistance junction to case is 5.6°C/W for the high side (Q1) and 4.9°C/W for the low side.


Gigabyte Gaming 7 with ISL99227 would be around 93% efficient , with 10.7°C/W junction to ambient so it's the only one that can take it

*TL;DR: make sure your mosfets are heatsinked.*

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Exotzs*
> 
> For someone who wants to keep the option of delidding open for the future, do you recommend the extreme 4 or the taichi? I was wondering if the extreme 4 has decent enough VRMs to handle even more overclocking after a delid. I felt that if I was going to keep this processor for 6+ years then I would go with the taichi but now i'm rethinking it. Any help would be greatly appreciated!


Depends on how much money it costs you. The Extreme 4 doesn't have the Debug LED, just be aware. In the USA it's $10-15 difference between the Extreme 4 and Fatal1ty K6.

I doubt you will keep it 6 years+.









Intel Z390 will have 8 cores on mainstream socket.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Exotzs*
> 
> Good point. I was only leaning towards the extreme 4 vs the fatal1ty K6 due to the audio amp support since my headphones need an amp to drive them. It seems that the fatal1ty K6 sound blaster cinema 3 doesn't support that or am I wrong? Let's assume I want to delid, would I need to invest in a mobo pricier than the extreme 4?


I've seen hardware.info have (slightly) inferior results for the K6 in terms of SNR (noise level) in terms of audio even though it has a Ti NE5532 amp. It may be a oddity, I don't know.


----------



## Exotzs

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AlphaC*
> 
> Depends on how much money it costs you. The Extreme 4 doesn't have the Debug LED, just be aware. In the USA it's $10-15 difference between the Extreme 4 and Fatal1ty K6.
> 
> I doubt you will keep it 6 years+.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Intel Z390 will have 8 cores on mainstream socket.


Good point. I was only leaning towards the extreme 4 vs the fatal1ty K6 due to the audio amp support since my headphones need an amp to drive them. It seems that the fatal1ty K6 sound blaster cinema 3 doesn't support that or am I wrong? Let's assume I want to delid, would I need to invest in a mobo pricier than the extreme 4?


----------



## mabman

So would the Krait be a bad choice? I'll be using an i5-8600k, evga clc 240 and 16gb(2x8) of 3200mhz cl14 ram. I do plan on doing a pretty decent overclock but I won't be pushing the CPU to it's absolute limits. I was also going for a white/black build. What boards would you recommend over it or will this be sufficient for what I plan on doing? Sorry I'm a bit of a noob and this may be a dumb question.


----------



## Telstar

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Exotzs*
> 
> Good point. I was only leaning towards the extreme 4 vs the fatal1ty K6 due to the audio amp support since my headphones need an amp to drive them. It seems that the fatal1ty K6 sound blaster cinema 3 doesn't support that or am I wrong? Let's assume I want to delid, would I need to invest in a mobo pricier than the extreme 4?


What voltage do u feel confortable to run? 5.2 at 1,4v you would need a beefier vrm (someone will do the math).
5.0 at 1,30v (like im going to do daily) is perfectly fine on the extreme4.


----------



## lunatics

Hey guys, I will be building a z370 build soon and am looking for some advice on a motherboard to get. The main thing is I need WiFi and I would rather have it built into the motherboard like my current Gigabyte x99 mobo has, vs having to buy a wireless card or USB adapter to do it. I have been looking at the Gigabyte Aorus Gaming 5 and I see that has now moved from medium/low on the list to high with the Gaming 7. As far as a mobo goes with WiFi built into it for gaming and basic OCing (probably not trying to hit 5GHz+ here) will the Gaming 5 be my best option? It seems like a lot of the Asus boards don't have it or I do not really like the design and I'm not about to spend $500 on the MSI Godlike board. I am assuming with the Gaming 7, aside from a PCI card or USB adapter, there is no way for me to add it correct?

Is there any info about that other Gigabyte motherboard in the "High" section, IE is it real and if/when it will be released or any info and specs on it, or if I am looking for something sooner rather than later and waiting and hoping for something else, then the Gaming 5 is my best bet right now?

I use a Creative X7 DAC/Amp for my headphones so I am not overly worried or concerned about the built in DAC on the gaming 7 and I like the DAC dedicated ports that the Gigabyte boards have, if that affects anything.


----------



## Exotzs

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Telstar*
> 
> What voltage do u feel confortable to run? 5.2 at 1,4v you would need a beefier vrm (someone will do the math).
> 5.0 at 1,30v (like im going to do daily) is perfectly fine on the extreme4.


I'm thinking 5.1 max since I think anything above 5.0 is a bit risky/not worth the heat generated.


----------



## VRMfreak

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *br0da*
> 
> MSI Godlike Gaming pics:
> 
> source: https://www.chiphell.com/article-18759-3.html
> I'd say this is 12+4+1+1. The IR35201 seems to run in 6+2 mode, I'd expect to find 8 IR3599 under the backside heatsinks.
> PowIRstages look like IR3555 to me?


That VRM is pretty damn good, but the heatsink succs. I have seen some photos and it looks like a solid block of aluminium (has some imitation of "fins") but it is covered in plastic with disco lights.


----------



## AlphaC

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *lunatics*
> 
> Hey guys, I will be building a z370 build soon and am looking for some advice on a motherboard to get. The main thing is I need WiFi and I would rather have it built into the motherboard like my current Gigabyte x99 mobo has, vs having to buy a wireless card or USB adapter to do it. I have been looking at the Gigabyte Aorus Gaming 5 and I see that has now moved from medium/low on the list to high with the Gaming 7. As far as a mobo goes with WiFi built into it for gaming and basic OCing (probably not trying to hit 5GHz+ here) will the Gaming 5 be my best option? It seems like a lot of the Asus boards don't have it or I do not really like the design and I'm not about to spend $500 on the MSI Godlike board. I am assuming with the Gaming 7, aside from a PCI card or USB adapter, there is no way for me to add it correct?
> 
> Is there any info about that other Gigabyte motherboard in the "High" section, IE is it real and if/when it will be released or any info and specs on it, or if I am looking for something sooner rather than later and waiting and hoping for something else, then the Gaming 5 is my best bet right now?
> 
> I use a Creative X7 DAC/Amp for my headphones so I am not overly worried or concerned about the built in DAC on the gaming 7 and I like the DAC dedicated ports that the Gigabyte boards have, if that affects anything.


For the mainstream Z370 price I personally would go for the Asrock Z370 extreme4 or K6 (not really white/black) or Taichi (has wifi), honestly if not the Asus Z370 STRIX E gaming (has wifi) or Z370-A (no wifi key so not an option)

The Gigabyte Aorus Gaming 5 was never on "low" since it was "low midrange" , I had it originally with the 7 but I moved it to midtier because it probably uses the 4C09N + 4C06N combo of the Ultra Gaming but with double the number of CPU phases.

As a cautious person as far as BIOS flashing, I prefer the assurance of having a dual BIOs which is why I would put the Taichi / K6 / extreme 4 over the ASUS offerings. An audiophile might put the STRIX Z370-E & Z370-F higher than the K6.

wifi should be a non-issue as long as it has the "1 x M.2 Socket (Key E), supports type 2230 WiFi/BT module slot" for it.

----
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Telstar*
> 
> What voltage do u feel confortable to run? 5.2 at 1,4v you would need a beefier vrm (someone will do the math).
> 5.0 at 1,30v (like im going to do daily) is perfectly fine on the extreme4.


I used the calculations I was using for AM4 so I didn't check it yet (high side might be off a little), but I updated my previous post above with the sort of losses and rough temps.

The gist is around 88% efficiency for low midtier boards , 90-92% for TI NexFETs & 2-in one dual channel ones.


----------



## Sin0822

The Godlike uses IR3555 and it's on a 12+4 phase configuration for the CPU and iGPU, there are ten IR3599 on the back. The heatsink isn't bad to be honest, the plastic covers the top, but there are enough fins, plus the backside of the motherboard has some cooling too with metal and heatpads that should help absorb some heat. Either way, this is Z370 lol, you aren't going to overheat the VRMs that easily, unless you are trying to. Also, it's easy to make the dumb mistake of reinstalling the VRm heatsink and not including the backplates, as then you can't secure the VRm heatsink to the board correctly (i was scratching my head for a few minutes wondering why i wasn't securing the heatsink right lol, and then i realized, oh MSi used backside slabs this time! lol

The price difference between the godlike and others isn't just due to the VRM, it does has a really nice audio solution and killer's tech that lets your board work like a switch and provide networking to connected devices, even if you connect to your router through wireless.


----------



## AlphaC

Steven, can you replicate the OC3D result? I'm unsure if it's the same overclock settings on the ASUS Maximus X Hero and the MSI Z370 Godlike but OC3D obtained higher vrm temps on the Godlike.

A $180 or $250 board shouldn't be outdoing it by 10°C in both OCCT AVX and Prime95.


----------



## asdkj1740

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *VRMfreak*
> 
> That VRM is pretty damn good, but the heatsink succs. I have seen some photos and it looks like a solid block of aluminium (has some imitation of "fins") but it is covered in plastic with disco lights.


that is msi. carbon pro's heatsink is uttter nonsense.


----------



## Zyther

So if the Z370-A uses the exact same VRM as the Z370-E seems to be better then the hero?
maybe the new VRM on the 370-E isnt so bad?


----------



## AlphaC

I don't know what clocks/voltage and whether MCE (multi-core enhancement = turbo on all cores) was turned on. I just posted that as a discussion point.

GamersNexus noted that the Asus boards sometimes turn on MCE

Even if the temperatures are lower on the Prime Z370-A at stock / unlikely but maybe OC3D's 5GHz?, the ASUS Maximus X hero is a better board. Whether it is worth the premium is debatable on a dead-on-arrival socket with Z390 looming.


----------



## Sin0822

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AlphaC*
> 
> Steven, can you replicate the OC3D result? I'm unsure if it's the same overclock settings on the ASUS Maximus X Hero and the MSI Z370 Godlike but OC3D obtained higher vrm temps on the Godlike.
> 
> A $180 or $250 board shouldn't be outdoing it by 10°C in both OCCT AVX and Prime95.


Do you mind linking me to the OC3D results? I am so busy, I don't have time to look at videos or TBH many other sites lol


----------



## CrazyElf

I'm still skeptical that this platform is "worth it" right now. The Z390 will be coming next year with 8 cores. Judging by Intel's actions, there is a very high chance that you won't have an upgrade path.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *br0da*
> 
> MSI Godlike Gaming pics:
> 
> source: https://www.chiphell.com/article-18759-3.html
> I'd say this is 12+4+1+1. The IR35201 seems to run in 6+2 mode, I'd expect to find 8 IR3599 under the backside heatsinks.
> PowIRstages look like IR3555 to me?


Looks like I spoke too soon.

It seems they've kept the same VRM solution from the Z170 XPower. It's a pretty decent VRM, although I wish there were more fins.

Sigh ... why can't we have a 10 + 4 IR3555 solution with a twin heatsink that looks like this?



So neither a step forward or backwards then.

Function over form! It also would have been nice for them to replace the IR stages with those 60A ISL ones.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Sin0822*
> 
> The Godlike uses IR3555 and it's on a 12+4 phase configuration for the CPU and iGPU, there are ten IR3599 on the back. The heatsink isn't bad to be honest, the plastic covers the top, but there are enough fins, plus the backside of the motherboard has some cooling too with metal and heatpads that should help absorb some heat. Either way, this is Z370 lol, you aren't going to overheat the VRMs that easily, unless you are trying to. Also, it's easy to make the dumb mistake of reinstalling the VRm heatsink and not including the backplates, as then you can't secure the VRm heatsink to the board correctly (i was scratching my head for a few minutes wondering why i wasn't securing the heatsink right lol, and then i realized, oh MSi used backside slabs this time! lol
> 
> The price difference between the godlike and others isn't just due to the VRM, it does has a really nice audio solution and killer's tech that lets your board work like a switch and provide networking to connected devices, even if you connect to your router through wireless.


The Godlike has historically carried a good audio solution and apparently offers a wifi range extender.

I suspect we will see a $300 or so Z370 XPower.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Sin0822*
> 
> Do you mind linking me to the OC3D results? I am so busy, I don't have time to look at videos or TBH many other sites lol


I believe that Alpha C is referring to these: https://www.overclock3d.net/reviews/cpu_mainboard/msi_z370_godlike_gaming_review/14
 

Despite having an excellent VRM, the Z370 Godlike seems to be running pretty hot.


----------



## AlphaC

CrazyElf linked it (https://www.overclock3d.net/reviews/cpu_mainboard/msi_z370_godlike_gaming_review/14) but even pushing 130A or something, twelve IR3555 should only put out about 1-W each worth of heat.

At 20°C/W to ambient (no heatsink) it should be no more than 50°C VRM temp.

So unless the heatsink is insulating it , or the board is simply not giving enough room per mosfet despite being EATX, I don't see how this is possible.

edit: another review of MSi godlike
http://www.expreview.com/57298-3.html

Looking at the board it has WIMA caps too, so once confirmed OC3D is testing wrong I'll move it to the top of the list.


----------



## Telstar

Could it be bad contact with the heatsink? From an early/review sample it could well be...


----------



## lunatics

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AlphaC*
> 
> wifi should be a non-issue as long as it has the "1 x M.2 Socket (Key E), supports type 2230 WiFi/BT module slot" for it.


Is this common? Most of these boards seem to only offer or advertise M key M.2 slots for SSDs and it seems like the ones with wireless built in are the ones with a hidden m.2 slot somewhere just using a wifi card but it looks like most do not have this slot.


----------



## Sin0822

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CrazyElf*
> 
> The Godlike has historically carried a good audio solution and apparently offers a wifi range extender.
> 
> I suspect we will see a $300 or so Z370 XPower.
> I believe that Alpha C is referring to these: https://www.overclock3d.net/reviews/cpu_mainboard/msi_z370_godlike_gaming_review/14
> 
> 
> Despite having an excellent VRM, the Z370 Godlike seems to be running pretty hot.


Yea, the wifi range extender is just a Killer 1535 with that tech built in (Killer's 1535 has a signal amplifier module built into it, but most people don't really know that).

Thanks for the charts.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AlphaC*
> 
> CrazyElf linked it (https://www.overclock3d.net/reviews/cpu_mainboard/msi_z370_godlike_gaming_review/14) but even pushing 130A or something, twelve IR3555 should only put out about 1-W each worth of heat.
> 
> At 20°C/W to ambient (no heatsink) it should be no more than 50°C VRM temp.
> 
> So unless the heatsink is insulating it , or the board is simply not giving enough room per mosfet despite being EATX, I don't see how this is possible.
> 
> edit: another review of MSi godlike
> http://www.expreview.com/57298-3.html
> 
> Looking at the board it has WIMA caps too, so once confirmed OC3D is testing wrong I'll move it to the top of the list.


The WIMA caps are in the audio section, the red ones, just like GIGABYTE's Gaming 7. The one reason i thought MSI's X299 board got hot was because of its inductors, it could be that they get quite hot, I will let you know how they compare to other boards. The issue with VRM temperature testing is standardizing the testing environment. You can try and make it idealized (no airflow, or full blown airflow) or real world (in a case or with light controlled airflow), as the VRM heatsinks will react differently depending on how they were designed to handle airflow.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *lunatics*
> 
> Is this common? Most of these boards seem to only offer or advertise M key M.2 slots for SSDs and it seems like the ones with wireless built in are the ones with a hidden m.2 slot somewhere just using a wifi card but it looks like most do not have this slot.


I have never seen a motherboard in the past 5 years that had a wireless card soldered into it, they have always been mPCI-E or M.2 slots. Most vendors don't advertise the WIFI M.2 slot, that's because it's already occupied haha. I have only seen a few with the slot unoccupied (like EVGA and once i saw ASRock do it if I remember correctly).


----------



## Techhog

Well, since my 8700K needs 1.36V to hit 4.9GHz completely stable and I have the Strix-E, I guess I should revert to stock now to get down to a voltage closer to 1.3V? -_- I'm ******* pissed right now. This launch is a joke. I have the same VRM as a $130 motherboard!? Asus and Intel are both on my ****list after this launch.


----------



## VRMfreak

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Techhog*
> 
> Well, since my 8700K needs 1.36V to hit 4.9GHz completely stable and I have the Strix-E, I guess I should revert to stock now to get down to a voltage closer to 1.3V? -_- I'm ******* pissed right now. This launch is a joke. I have the same VRM as a $130 motherboard!? Asus and Intel are both on my ****list after this launch.


Calm down.
Check the temps with a stress and see, from the OC3D testing they seem to do fine.


----------



## Techhog

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *VRMfreak*
> 
> Calm down.
> Check the temps with a stress and see, from the OC3D testing they seem to do fine.


What program and settings should I use?


----------



## VRMfreak

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Techhog*
> 
> What program and settings should I use?


I generally do it the easy way.
Download something like HWInfo64, run the stress and watch the sensors. The second highest temp that is not your CPU should be the VRM


----------



## Techhog

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *VRMfreak*
> 
> I generally do it the easy way.
> Download something like HWInfo64, run the stress and watch the sensors. The second highest temp that is not your CPU should be the VRM


I used OCCT



Note that I forgot to turn up my intake case fans for a good minute.

Should I make my cooler's (NH-D15S but I added a second fan) fan curve more aggressive? The thing is silent at load currently


----------



## RXWX

What uARCH will Z390 use? I find Ice Lake to be unlikely. I'm leaning towards Cannon Lake or Coffee Lake again, Coffee Lake more likely than CNL since 10nm is problematic to manufacturer according to various sources.


----------



## br0da

ASUS TUF Z370 Pro Gaming pictured:

source: http://www.coolpc.com.tw/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=70&t=243715&sid=83e2fadb22988cdfe1d855e19bf0e70d

ASP1400BT controller running in 4+2 mode, 4C09B + 2x 4C06B for each VCC phase, since those soldering pads on the backside are empty I wouldn't expect the lowside for VCCGT to be doubled too.


----------



## Indubs

Let me preface my comment by saying that I know nothing about VRMs or any of this. All I want to know is if my Strix-e will be able to overclock as well as the top tiers, or is it all about temperatures?

I guess I'm just asking for a ELI5 of all this.


----------



## dfgdfg

@br0da

Mind updating the quote in your first post since AlphaC's post has changed?


----------



## br0da

Done.


----------



## Sin0822

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Indubs*
> 
> Let me preface my comment by saying that I know nothing about VRMs or any of this. All I want to know is if my Strix-e will be able to overclock as well as the top tiers, or is it all about temperatures?
> 
> I guess I'm just asking for a ELI5 of all this.


What is your LLC set to? You shouldn't need 1.37v to get 4.9GHz unless that voltage is dropping a lot.


----------



## Techhog

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Sin0822*
> 
> What is your LLC set to? You shouldn't need 1.37v to get 4.9GHz unless that voltage is dropping a lot.


Every chip is different. Mine needs 1.36V to be perfectly stable at 4.9GHz (at least I think; I had some issues at 1.35V yesterday but I don't know if it was the overclock or whatever has been causing my boot SSD to stop working randomly at times).


----------



## kevindd992002

How different in VRM/MOSFET temps would the Maximus X Code have compared to its Z270 counterpart? Would the higher power delivery really increase temps significantly?


----------



## AlphaC

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Techhog*
> 
> Well, since my 8700K needs 1.36V to hit 4.9GHz completely stable and I have the Strix-E, I guess I should revert to stock now to get down to a voltage closer to 1.3V? -_- I'm ******* pissed right now. This launch is a joke. I have the same VRM as a $130 motherboard!? Asus and Intel are both on my ****list after this launch.


Why are you so angry?

The STRIX z370-E is charging you for extras such as M.2 , wifi, ROG branding, _semi-improved audio_, RGB LEDs, etc.
(https://us.hardware.info/reviews/7605/18/intel-z370-motherboards-round-up-17-times-coffee-lake-audio-quality)
It has the VRM of a $160 board not a $130 board.

The STRIX Z370-E isn't a terrible board it is midrange.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Techhog*
> 
> Which means that I shouldn't overclock past the max boost, preferably closer to 4.5 or 4.6. That makes it effectively pointless. I should have been more patient and gotten the Hero... Can somebody just tell me the limits I should take for a 24/7 overclock on this thing to last 3 years+?


eh, MCE = 4.7GHz. I'd expect 4.8GHz not delidded or possibly a good binned chip on 5GHz if you have a 240 aluminum rad (Closed loop AIOs) / dual tower air cooler or similar. It depends on your testing regimen and AVX offset as well, since AVX will heat it up much faster. It's quite possibly a thermal limitation rather than a motherboard one. see http://www.overclock.net/t/1638955/z370-z390-vrm-discussion-thread/40#post_26380035

see also


http://www.hardware.fr/articles/970-3/overclocking-pratique.html
(top end Gigabyte Z370 Aorus Gaming 7 was used







)


https://hexus.net/tech/reviews/mainboard/110801-gigabyte-aorus-z370-gaming-7/?page=8

Gigabyte Z370 Gaming 7 @OC3D: 5.1GHz @1.26V https://www.overclock3d.net/reviews/cpu_mainboard/gigabyte_z370_aorus_gaming_7_review/2

MSI Z370 Godlike OC3D: 5GHz @ 1.296V https://www.overclock3d.net/reviews/cpu_mainboard/msi_z370_godlike_gaming_review/2

Asus Z370 Maximus X Hero @ OC3D: 5GHz @1.312V https://www.overclock3d.net/reviews/cpu_mainboard/asus_z370_maximus_x_hero_review/5

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Indubs*
> 
> Let me preface my comment by saying that I know nothing about VRMs or any of this. All I want to know is if my Strix-e will be able to overclock as well as the top tiers, or is it all about temperatures?
> 
> I guess I'm just asking for a ELI5 of all this.


STRIX-E is fine if you're not delidding. You'll hit a thermal limit on the CPU first since the CPU will hit 90°C+ on a mere 150W (about 110A).

ELI5 version (ugh reddit/facebook culture, I had to look up the acronym) : If not delid = more than enough

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *br0da*
> 
> ASUS TUF Z370 Pro Gaming pictured:
> http://www.overclock.net/content/type/61/id/3131776/width/200/height/400
> http://www.overclock.net/content/type/61/id/3131775/width/200/height/400
> http://www.overclock.net/content/type/61/id/3131778/width/200/height/400
> http://www.overclock.net/content/type/61/id/3131777/width/200/height/400
> source: http://www.coolpc.com.tw/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=70&t=243715&sid=83e2fadb22988cdfe1d855e19bf0e70d
> 
> ASP1400BT controller running in 4+2 mode, 4C09B + 2x 4C06B for each VCC phase, since those soldering pads on the backside are empty I wouldn't expect the lowside for VCCGT to be doubled too.


Stock CPU is about 100W, 1.2V so it's about 80A? (on par with Ryzen 5 hexcore I guess)

80A for 4 high side phases is a pretty narrow margin for overclocking, isn't it? I get about 1.72W power dissipation estimated per 4C09 high side fet (1.39W if using V_GS=10V), 85% efficiency . This is truly at the mercy of the VRM heatsink + case airflow.


----------



## Techhog

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AlphaC*
> 
> Why are you so angry?
> 
> The STRIX-E is charging you for extras such as M.2 , wifi, ROG branding, RGB LEDs, etc.
> 
> It has the VRM of a $160 board not a $130 board.
> 
> The STRIX-E isn't a terrible board it is midrange.


Which means that I shouldn't overclock past the max boost, preferably closer to 4.5 or 4.6. That makes it effectively pointless. I should have been more patient and gotten the Hero... Can somebody just tell me the limits I should take for a 24/7 overclock on this thing to last 3 years+?
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AlphaC*
> 
> eh, MCE = 4.7GHz. I'd expect 4.8GHz not delidded or possibly a good binned chip on 5GHz if you have a 240 aluminum rad (Closed loop AIOs) / dual tower air cooler or similar. It depends on your testing regimen and AVX offset as well, since AVX will heat it up much faster. It's quite possibly a thermal limitation rather than a motherboard one. see http://www.overclock.net/t/1638955/z370-z390-vrm-discussion-thread/40#post_26380035


So my current 4.9GHz at 1.36V is not safe and I have to back down to 4.7GHz. Is that right? I don't test wit AVX though because I don't really need it. Also MCE isn't an option because that defaults to a higher voltage and runs hotter.

Edit: Slight correction: I have it set to 1.36V, VID shows 1.365V, and Vcore in HWiNFO64 shows 1.344V.


----------



## Sin0822

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Techhog*
> 
> Every chip is different. Mine needs 1.36V to be perfectly stable at 4.9GHz (at least I think; I had some issues at 1.35V yesterday but I don't know if it was the overclock or whatever has been causing my boot SSD to stop working randomly at times).


What is your LLC level again? lol


----------



## Techhog

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Sin0822*
> 
> What is your LLC level again? lol


It was 4, but I just tested and in Realbench the Vdroop went as low as 1.264V... I think it's safe to say that there's something else at play here. It also crashed during that test, but my system is being weird... Can an unstable overclock cause a boot SSD to randomly disconnect? Because my crashes always result in the boot drive (and only the boot drive) vanishing from the UEFI. Should I look into replacing the drive?

Maybe I should make my own thread...


----------



## HKPolice

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Techhog*
> 
> It was 4, but I just tested and in Realbench the Vdroop went as low as 1.264V... I think it's safe to say that there's something else at play here. It also crashed during that test, but my system is being weird... Can an unstable overclock cause a boot SSD to randomly disconnect? Because my crashes always result in the boot drive (and only the boot drive) vanishing from the UEFI. Should I look into replacing the drive?
> 
> Maybe I should make my own thread...


Isn't the max LLC 7 or 8? 4 seems low on an Asus. 1.264v is WAY too low.


----------



## Techhog

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *HKPolice*
> 
> Isn't the max LLC 7 or 8? 4 seems low on an Asus. 1.264v is WAY too low.


Yup. 4 was too low. I upped it to 5 and did a repair install of Windows. At this level, it's still dropping to 1.264V at times, but this time with 1.34V as the base voltage. I don't want to go for 6 on LLC because then VRM temps get close to 80C, whereas with LLC at 5 it's closer to 70C. So, I guess that's at least something worth contributing to this thread.


----------



## AlphaC

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Techhog*
> 
> Yup. 4 was too low. I upped it to 5 and did a repair install of Windows. At this level, it's still dropping to 1.264V at times, but this time with 1.34V as the base voltage. I don't want to go for 6 on LLC because then VRM temps get close to 80C, whereas with LLC at 5 it's closer to 70C. So, I guess that's at least something worth contributing to this thread.


Would you mind putting up hwinfo shot of the power / current / voltage?

----

4.8GHz is a high volume (large % of CPUs) / ordinary overclock it looks like

Per Cyberpowerpc (very high volume PC maker) Ultimate OC (Ultimate Overclock 30% or more) --- 4.8GHz on i7-8700k , while the lower OC is +20% ~ 4.5Ghz

Per awd -it uk 4.8GHz - 5GHz :
https://www.awd-it.co.uk/intel-i7-8700k-overclocked-4.8ghz-cpu-asus-strix-z370f-gaming-motherboard-bundle.html
https://www.awd-it.co.uk/intel-i7-8700k-overclocked-5.0ghz-cpu-asus-rog-maximus-x-hero-motherboard-bundle-liquid-cooled.html

ScanUK overclocked bundle at 4.8GHz on STRIX Z370-F https://www.scan.co.uk/3xs/configurator/intel-core-i7-8700k-overclocked-bundle

OCUK 5GHz https://www.overclockers.co.uk/8pack-extreme-overclocked-i7-8700k-5ghz-gaming-bundle-bu-00w-8p.html
4.8GHz bundle Gaming 7 https://www.overclockers.co.uk/defcon-1c-gigabyte-gaming-7-8700k-4.80ghz-overclocked-gaming-bundle-bu-0aa-og.html
4.8GHz bundle on ROG Hero https://www.overclockers.co.uk/defcon-1c-asus-rog-maximus-x-hero-8700k-4.80ghz-overclocked-bundle-bu-0a8-og.html
4.8GHz on Taichi https://www.overclockers.co.uk/defcon-1c-asrock-taichi-8700k-4.80ghz-overclocked-gaming-bundle-bu-0a9-og.html
4.7GHz on midrange https://www.overclockers.co.uk/defcon-2c-asrock-extreme-4-configurable-overclocked-4.70ghz-gaming-bundle-bu-0a6-og.html

4.7Ghz on "do not buy" motherboards







https://www.overclockers.co.uk/defcon-2c-asus-z370-tuf-plus-gaming-configurable-overclocked-4.70ghz-gaming-bundle-bu-0a5-og.html
https://www.overclockers.co.uk/defcon-2c-gigabyte-ultra-gaming-configurable-overclocked-4.70ghz-gaming-bundle-bu-0a7-og.html

155W change in system power with CPU loaded at 4.8GHz @1.2V (i7-8700k hits 88 Celsius on the 240mm AIO Deepcool Captain) , +36W over stock all core 4.3GHz @ 1.14V , _which means about 140W_
http://www.expreview.com/57262-5.html
http://www.expreview.com/57262-5.html

It's also the lowest bin sold at caseking for their binned CPUs

z370 Extreme4 confirmation , it may be alternate suppliers ?


http://www.dgtle.com/article-19793-1.html

^ CPU hit 74 degrees C in Firestrike (240mm AIO Coolermaster Masterliquid Pro) when 4.8GHz @1.27V with 4.3GHz uncore
Maybe needs to be bumped higher than Fatal1ty k6? Nah, K6 has heatpipe...

https://uk.hardware.info/product/413348/asrock-z370-extreme4/specifications lists ON Semiconductor FDPC5030SG



http://pc.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/topic/review/1084754.html says Extreme4 has Sinopower SM7341EHKP

SM7341EH on the K6
http://www.hkepc.com/15520/%E7%94%A8%E6%96%99%E8%A6%8F%E6%A0%BC%E5%86%8D%E6%8F%90%E5%8D%87_ASROCK_Fatal1ty_Z370_Gaming_K6

https://uk.hardware.info/product/412800/asrock-fatal1ty-z370-gaming-k6/specifications lists Sinopower SM7341EHKP

z370 Killer SLI = SM4337+ SM4336
http://www.xfastest.com/forum.php?mod=viewthread&tid=201097&cp=4

Gigabyte HD3 = ISL 95866，4+3 powering 4c10n + 4c06n


Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!






http://tieba.baidu.com/p/5361261131?see_lz=1

DISCLAIMER

Been browsing around and it seems casual people are taking this VRM thread on these boards a bit too seriously for non-delid chips. _(low) Midrange or better for those people would be fine._

Dear guest readers: this is OCN, we use our machines for folding, BOINC, Cinema4d (i.e. not just cinebench for "lols"), and 14+ day uptime 24/7 running competitions maxed out on AvX instructionsets, not _playing 1080p games on Ultra (GPU bound) 60fps two hours_...


----------



## asdkj1740

omg why there are two versions of vrm on the same extreme 4 from asrock


----------



## SpirosKGR

Which one of this two ( asrock ext.4 / gaming k6 ) for more stable overclocking? Im confused. :s They look the same


----------



## robinaish

Wrong manip


----------



## Techhog

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AlphaC*
> 
> Would you mind putting up hwinfo shot of the power / current / voltage?
> DISCLAIMER
> 
> Been browsing around and it seems casual people are taking this VRM thread on these boards a bit too seriously for non-delid chips. _(low) Midrange or better for those people would be fine._
> 
> Dear guest readers: this is OCN, we use our machines for folding, BOINC, Cinema4d (i.e. not just cinebench for "lols"), and 14+ day uptime 24/7 running competitions maxed out on AvX instructionsets, not _playing 1080p games on Ultra (GPU bound) 60fps two hours_...


Okay. Also I actually do want to learn to use C4D lol.





EDIT: Hm... I just can't seem to get anything truly stable. Then thing is that I'm still seeing Vcore drop as low as 1.248V with a Vcore set at 1.355V in the UEFI with LLC at level 5. This doesn't make sense to me. Maybe I should wait for a BIOS update? Or could the actual voltage regulation on my board be messed up? I know that there are 7 levels, but I feel like level 5 should be tighter than that. This is after a (failed) Realbench stress test with the mentioned settings:


----------



## br0da

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AlphaC*
> 
> z370 Extreme4 confirmation , it may be alternate suppliers ?
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.dgtle.com/article-19793-1.html
> 
> ^ CPU hit 74 degrees C in Firestrike (240mm AIO Coolermaster Masterliquid Pro) when 4.8GHz @1.27V with 4.3GHz uncore
> Maybe needs to be bumped higher than Fatal1ty k6? Nah, K6 has heatpipe...
> 
> https://uk.hardware.info/product/413348/asrock-z370-extreme4/specifications lists ON Semiconductor FDPC5030SG
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://pc.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/topic/review/1084754.html says Extreme4 has Sinopower SM7341EHKP
> 
> SM7341EH on the K6
> http://www.hkepc.com/15520/%E7%94%A8%E6%96%99%E8%A6%8F%E6%A0%BC%E5%86%8D%E6%8F%90%E5%8D%87_ASROCK_Fatal1ty_Z370_Gaming_K6
> 
> https://uk.hardware.info/product/412800/asrock-fatal1ty-z370-gaming-k6/specifications lists Sinopower SM7341EHKP


So again it's a surprise what FETs you'll get on your ASRock board.








Seems to be the same for MSI this time...
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AlphaC*
> 
> DISCLAIMER
> 
> Been browsing around and it seems casual people are taking this VRM thread on these boards a bit too seriously for non-delid chips. _(low) Midrange or better for those people would be fine._
> 
> Dear guest readers: this is OCN, we use our machines for folding, BOINC, Cinema4d (i.e. not just cinebench for "lols"), and 14+ day uptime 24/7 running competitions maxed out on AvX instructionsets, not _playing 1080p games on Ultra (GPU bound) 60fps two hours_...


I really like this disclaimer, I'll add it to #1 with the next big update.


----------



## lunatics

While I may not be going to the extremes of overclocking as some of you guys do, and with the MSI board most likely being out of my price range for this build, should the Aorus Gaming 7 or Gaming 5 be a sufficient board for OC'ing to around the 5GHz point? I plan to start with 4.7/4.8 on all cores but I'd like to push to 5GHz with this chip when I finish my build, should one of these 2 boards be able to handle that? I plan on delidding my CPU as well once I receive it. I have a 7700k in my Laptop running @ 4.7GHz but am afraid to go any higher than that in a laptop so I have backed off any messing around with it, but now with building a new desktop I would like to push this further. My CPU was delidded by the manufactuer of my laptop, so I don't actually have any experience doing that myself yet either, but I plan on buying one of those 3d printed delidding tools to assist me with doing it myself on this CPU and pushing my machine to the 5GHz point or beyond. Just hoping those boards will be good/decent enough to support that as it looks like I will most likely be going with one of those 2. Either 7 and buying my own PCIe wireless card (if it is overall recommended as a better board) or Gaming 5 and using the built in wireless.


----------



## AlphaC

5GHz should be attainable _with a decent chip_ on anything midrange if delidded.

@ br0da

Well there's a minimal difference for normal non-delid loads









The mosfet packaging (5x6mm , 8 pins) is exactly the same in both cases for Asrock Extreme4.

The low volume boards > $200 are going to be more resilient (resistant) in terms of having alternate suppliers and the PCB design limits what sort of part can be swapped in. A Sinopower 2-in-1 is still more efficient than high+low side fet , even if it is disappointing. I couldn't find SPICE models for Sinopower but others such as IR (infineon), Texas Instruments, Intersil, OnSemi, Fairchild (part of Onsemi), Vishay do have them. In order to make a better analysis we would need inductor specs + output capacitance + equivalent resistance for the trace length...

I'm really interested in what sort of VRM heatsink performance is existent on the Z370 midrange and higher. It seems the Z370-A VRM temperature could very well be matching the ROG Hero for air , non-delid since the NexFETs have higher R_theta JC_top , plus smaller mosfet footprint for heat dissipation into PCB & VRM heatsink.

I also wonder how much the memory trace length and memory VRM design will affect this platform , BIOs notwithstanding. It seems Asrock paid attention to this for the Taichi as far as parts but maybe not the traces. Asus has historically touted their T-topology for ~+15% memory overclocks.
We can't rely on memorymark because the results are puzzling and we don't know if the settings were verbatim (exactly the same) including subtimings.
Prime Z370-A faster than ROG Hero, TUF Pro Gaming faster than STRIX-E, Aorus Ultra Gaming the same as Gaming 7, & Extreme4 faster than Taichi...
https://uk.hardware.info/reviews/7605/15/intel-z370-motherboards-round-up-17-times-coffee-lake-benchmarks-memory-andngpu
Asus STRIX Z370-I reportedly hits 4333MHz mem clock going off their spec sheet.


----------



## ogider

"I also wonder how much the memory trace length and memory VRM design will affect this platform"
Not Taichi,but new Asrock memory path should be same.
http://www.hkepc.com/15520/%E7%94%A8%E6%96%99%E8%A6%8F%E6%A0%BC%E5%86%8D%E6%8F%90%E5%8D%87_ASROCK_Fatal1ty_Z370_Gaming_K6


----------



## czin125

That planes on outer layer thing doesn't exist on the Taichi ( but it does seem to be found on lower end 1151 stuff like the H270 ). They could be different since the K6 ( F4-4133C19D-16GTZR ) and Taichi ( F4-4266C19D-16GTZA ) for qvls.


----------



## marik123

I would like to get a Z370 board and what is the cheapest board I need to get in order to hit 5ghz on a 8700k delid?


----------



## aznguyen316

So I have a Z370 Asus Prime-A board, an 8600K delidded and custom loop. I just got it together last night and just did a quick OC 5Ghz @1.3V. Thermals are not an issue right now since my custom loop is only cooling the CPU at the moment (420mm + 280mm) since I don't have my GPU in loop for now.

Anyway... is 1.35 to 1.4V too much for daily driver OC on these VRMs if I want to try for 5.2Ghz or so?


----------



## Techhog

So I've tested at multiple voltages and settings and I've come to the conclusion that, at least on this board, AVX instructions don't want to go higher than 1.264V on the Vcore. So, at least for now, I'm just gonna lock AXV at 4.3GHz max. It's a "new" platform, so maybe there's a bug here which needs to be worked out. Inless someone here has an alternate explanation, I think that's something to note.


----------



## kevindd992002

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kevindd992002*
> 
> How different in VRM/MOSFET temps would the Maximus X Code have compared to its Z270 counterpart? Would the higher power delivery really increase temps significantly?


Anybody?


----------



## AlphaC

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *aznguyen316*
> 
> So I have a Z370 Asus Prime-A board, an 8600K delidded and custom loop. I just got it together last night and just did a quick OC 5Ghz @1.3V. Thermals are not an issue right now since my custom loop is only cooling the CPU at the moment (420mm + 280mm) since I don't have my GPU in loop for now.
> 
> Anyway... is 1.35 to 1.4V too much for daily driver OC on these VRMs if I want to try for 5.2Ghz or so?


What's the weather like in Tampa today?







Looks like 90°F / 32°C ambient...

It's chip dependent as far as power draw. Monitor your VRM temps in Prime95 / OCCT / AIDA64 / Realbench. If it's anything like OC3d's result of 71°C on STRIX-E , you should be golden.

As stated above there's store overclocked bundles with the mid-tier boards pushing 4.8GHz.

If you don't have air conditioning and/or aren't applying airflow to the VRM I would not try to push it too far. You're at the mercy of the VRM heatsink.

Japanese capacitors are rated 105°C 5K or 10K hours (black ones typically 10k or 12K).
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Techhog*
> 
> So I've tested at multiple voltages and settings and I've come to the conclusion that, at least on this board, AVX instructions don't want to go higher than 1.264V on the Vcore. So, at least for now, I'm just gonna lock AXV at 4.3GHz max. It's a "new" platform, so maybe there's a bug here which needs to be worked out. Inless someone here has an alternate explanation, I think that's something to note.


Use AVX offset?

AVX increases heat more than normal instructions such as SSE.

I don't think it's a motherboard limitation.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Techhog*
> 
> But the higher heat should come from it pushing _higher_ voltage than what I set, not lower voltage, right?


Current draw might be higher. I'd keep an eye on that too.

https://www.pcgamesn.com/asus-tuf-z370-pro-gaming-review-benchmarks
"Asus' TUF Z370-Pro shows you don't have to spend big on an Intel Coffee Lake board

*Even though it's got that pretty limited six-phase power design our board was still able to push the Core i7 8700K up to a heady, stable 5.2GHz.*" - wrong info to give to people.
Why is this wrong info?
A. The $160 board is as expensive as a half decent one , while having a horrific ALC887
B. You can reach 5.2GHz on a board as a suicide run, but unless it is stable and tested under stress it's not a true 24/7 overclock.
C. No word on VRM temperatures or any CPU / VRM throttling
D. Asus doesn't know it's doing with the TUF Lineup whatsoever, it's been shuffled from high-end to mid-range and now we have cheapo "gaming" boards with the TUF 5 year warranty. It's a TUF board with 5K rated caps albeit 5 year warranty. Plus aesthetically nothing goes with burnt yellow.
*** If ASUS put a decent VRM from the Z370-A on this , added 10K hr rated caps , blackwing chokes, put a monster heatsink on the VRM with a heatpipe on it , then maybe it would be worthy of the name. Or better yet, if it used TI NexFETs.
*** The M.2 SSD slots don't have any thermal dissipation to them
*** no backplate
E. all of the above

More false advertising maybe?:
https://www.novatech.co.uk/products/msi-z370-gaming-m5-socket-lga-1151-v2-atx-motherboard/z370gamingm5.html


In other news, 5.5GHz on the Fatal1ty K6 on i5...

https://www.hardwareluxx.de/community/f139/oc-prozessoren-intel-sockel-1151-coffee-lake-laberthread-1175411-9.html
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SpirosKGR*
> 
> Which one of this two ( asrock ext.4 / gaming k6 ) for more stable overclocking? Im confused. :s They look the same


The money was spent on things like Debug LED + audio amp.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *marik123*
> 
> I would like to get a Z370 board and what is the cheapest board I need to get in order to hit 5ghz on a 8700k delid?


It's chip dependent but Asrock's Fatal1ty K6 or Extreme4 are good bets.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kevindd992002*
> 
> Anybody?


I don't know if anyone has one.









Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bloot*
> 
> Hello,
> 
> On AM4 plattform X370 Prime Pro is probably the best value for money, what would it be on the 'new' 1151 socket?


Until shown differently, I would say the $160ish Z370 Fatal1ty K6. Except for the audio result (I'm not sure why hardware.info got a better result for the Extreme4 without the TI amp in terms of dynamic range) , everything else is roughly on par with a Maximus X Hero.


----------



## Techhog

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AlphaC*
> 
> Use AVX offset?
> 
> AVX increases heat more than normal instructions such as SSE.
> 
> I don't think it's a motherboard limitation.


But the higher heat should come from it pushing _higher_ voltage than what I set, not lower voltage, right?


----------



## bloot

Hello,

On AM4 plattform X370 Prime Pro is probably the best value for money, what would it be on the 'new' 1151 socket?


----------



## kevindd992002

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AlphaC*
> 
> I don't know if anyone has one.


Yeah but I'm kinda picking your brains out for your expectations, I guess







I mean, the X couldn't be more different than the IX, right?


----------



## Zyther

Putting a delidded 8700k under watercooling, with a ambient temp of say 30c

What do you think is the most stable overclock and voltage you could get out of a z370-E/F for 24/7


----------



## AlphaC

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Zyther*
> 
> Putting a delidded 8700k under watercooling, with a ambient temp of say 30c
> 
> What do you think is the most stable overclock and voltage you could get out of a z370-E/F for 24/7


It's chip dependent & dependent on if you delid since you will hit a thermal wall with the CPU.

Probably 5GHz with an average chip , 5.2-5.3GHz on a good one , with AVX offset. The highest binned i7-8700k sold on Caseking is 5.2GHz right now.

edit: see links in http://www.overclock.net/t/1638955/z370-z390-vrm-discussion-thread/40#post_26380035

Prime Z270-A has a slight difference to STRIX-E/F , but it's minimal due to the mosfet quality
As suspected:
ON-Semi 4C09B+4C06B


https://www.hkepc.com/15728/%E4%B8%BB%E6%B5%81%E7%B4%9A_Z370_%E4%B9%8B%E9%81%B8_ASUS_PRIME_Z370-A_%E4%B8%BB%E6%A9%9F%E6%9D%BF


----------



## awesomegamer919

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AlphaC*
> 
> Prime Z270-A has a slight difference to STRIX-E/F , but it's minimal due to the mosfet quality
> As suspected:
> ON-Semi 4C09B+4C06B
> 
> 
> https://www.hkepc.com/15728/%E4%B8%BB%E6%B5%81%E7%B4%9A_Z370_%E4%B9%8B%E9%81%B8_ASUS_PRIME_Z370-A_%E4%B8%BB%E6%A9%9F%E6%9D%BF


Do you have links to datasheets or even data snippets of those? I can't find them on ON_Semi's site...


----------



## Zyther

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AlphaC*
> 
> It's chip dependent & dependent on if you delid since you will hit a thermal wall with the CPU.
> 
> Probably 5GHz with an average chip , 5.2-5.3GHz on a good one , with AVX offset. The highest binned i7-8700k sold on Caseking is 5.2GHz right now.
> 
> edit: see links in http://www.overclock.net/t/1638955/z370-z390-vrm-discussion-thread/40#post_26380035
> 
> Prime Z270-A has a slight difference to STRIX-E/F , but it's minimal due to the mosfet quality
> As suspected:
> ON-Semi 4C09B+4C06B
> 
> 
> https://www.hkepc.com/15728/%E4%B8%BB%E6%B5%81%E7%B4%9A_Z370_%E4%B9%8B%E9%81%B8_ASUS_PRIME_Z370-A_%E4%B8%BB%E6%A9%9F%E6%9D%BF


Yeah I will be delidding and putting in a custom loop so cpu temp isn't wont be a issue.

So does the Z370M-a have slightly worse or better vrm to the E/F?


----------



## br0da

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *awesomegamer919*
> 
> Do you have links to datasheets or even data snippets of those? I can't find them on ON_Semi's site...


There aren't any public datasheets for 4C09*B* and 4C06*B* parts, for now you need to refer to the 4C09*N* and 4C06*N* datasheets.
https://www.onsemi.com/pub/Collateral/NTMFS4C09N-D.PDF
https://www.onsemi.com/pub/Collateral/NTMFS4C06N-D.PDF


----------



## Exilon

http://techreport.com/review/32669/gigabyte-z370-aorus-gaming-7-motherboard-reviewed/5

124C...

Sounds like it might be worth replacing the VRM thermal pads on the Gaming 7.


----------



## kd5151

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Exilon*
> 
> http://techreport.com/review/32669/gigabyte-z370-aorus-gaming-7-motherboard-reviewed/5
> 
> 124C...
> 
> Sounds like it might be worth replacing the VRM thermal pads on the Gaming 7.


wow.


----------



## Spin Cykle

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Exilon*
> 
> http://techreport.com/review/32669/gigabyte-z370-aorus-gaming-7-motherboard-reviewed/5
> 
> 124C...
> 
> Sounds like it might be worth replacing the VRM thermal pads on the Gaming 7.


I was really sold on the Gaming 7 until reading that. If I intend to use an EK monoblock, do you think it's something to sill worry about? I hope this is a thermal pad/onboard cooling issue and not the actual VRM's running hotter than previous generations.... Tom @ OC3D did a review and stated the little mini fan under the I/O shield comes on at 90 degress. He then goes on to state he really hammered the board and the temps never approached 90... I'm not sure why there is such a large difference is temperature reporting.

Will the Maximus Hero have the same VRM's as the Apex? Maybe I missed it in the previous posts. I apologize if I did.

My top 3 contenders w/ an EK Monoblock were 1. Gaming 7 ... 2. Maximus Apex ... 3. Maximus Hero. I purley want high overclocks +5.0 GHz. All the rest really does not matter. I have wifi AC card. Only 1 NVME 2280 950 Evo and the rest SATA SSD's.

Ram is 3600 speed.

Thoughts on which board I should choose?


----------



## AlphaC

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Exilon*
> 
> http://techreport.com/review/32669/gigabyte-z370-aorus-gaming-7-motherboard-reviewed/5
> 
> 124C...
> 
> Sounds like it might be worth replacing the VRM thermal pads on the Gaming 7.


Geez. That must have been a bad sample if torquing the heatsink down resulting in more than a 10°C drop. I might need to adjust to have Gaming 7 "monoblock only".

Also the Gigabyte auto overclock profiles generally put way more voltage than required.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Spin Cykle*
> 
> I was really sold on the Gaming 7 until reading that. If I intend to use an EK monoblock, do you think it's something to sill worry about? I hope this is a thermal pad/onboard cooling issue and not the actual VRM's running hotter than previous generations.... Tom @ OC3D did a review and stated the little mini fan under the I/O shield comes on at 90 degress. He then goes on to state he really hammered the board and the temps never approached 90... I'm not sure why there is such a large difference is temperature reporting.
> 
> Will the Maximus Hero have the same VRM's as the Apex? Maybe I missed it in the previous posts. I apologize if I did.
> 
> My top 3 contenders w/ an EK Monoblock were 1. Gaming 7 ... 2. Maximus Apex ... 3. Maximus Hero. I purley want high overclocks +5.0 GHz. All the rest really does not matter. I have wifi AC card. Only 1 NVME 2280 950 Evo and the rest SATA SSD's.
> 
> Ram is 3600 speed.
> 
> Thoughts on which board I should choose?


Monoblock means you should look at components only

on AM4, the Gaming K7 had a dinky heatsink and using monoblocks made it cooler by about 30-40°C (from ~ 80°C at 4GHz clocks) , and that was on 40A IR3553 not 60A ISL Smart Power stage parts.


----------



## kevindd992002

Quote:

Originally Posted by *AlphaC* 


> Monoblock means you should look at components only


Sorry, what do you mean by this statement?


----------



## AlphaC

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kevindd992002*
> 
> Sorry, what do you mean by this statement?


It means the performance with stock VRM heatsink is irrelevant.

edit: picture of heatsink from the review


----------



## kevindd992002

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AlphaC*
> 
> It means the performance with stock VRM heatsink is irrelevant.


Because the monoblock can cool the components effectively compared to the stock VRM heatsink? If so, of course that is already a given.


----------



## Exilon

It's quite unfortunate that a board with high end components completely dropped the ball on cooling. I guess that explains the fan in the shroud?


----------



## kd5151

Turn off the RGB -50 degrees on the vrm.


----------



## AlphaC

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Exilon*
> 
> It's quite unfortunate that a board with high end components completely dropped the ball on cooling. I guess that explains the fan in the shroud?


I'm not going to draw any conclusions right now because the MSI Z370 Godlike result didn't seem right to me either.
If you go by the Intersil Powerstage efficiency (>90% efficiency) and 10°C/W thermal resistance to ambient (no heatsink) then the VRM shouldn't exceed 60°C.

If there is no other heatsource going into the board and the board is using 2oz copper PCB , 1 sq in of PCB per mosfet (each is 5x5mm) *as per Intersil 10°C/W junction to ambient thermal resistance* would be roughly 55-60°C load temp at maximum assuming > 90% efficiency. That means the heatsink is acting as an insulator.

It doesn't make sense to me just like the MSI Z370 Godlike result didn't seem right to me.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kd5151*
> 
> Turn off the RGB -50 degrees on the vrm.


The sad part is that might be part of the problem. We don't know the wattage of the LEDs in the heatsink.

edit: found thread by 8pack
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *https://forums.overclockers.co.uk/threads/8packs-no-bs-testing-intel-8700k-and-z370-with-delid-5ghz-and-above-available-from-ocuk.18795262/*
> 
> Overclocking 8700K on low end Air Cooler like Cooler Master EVO 4.7-4.8ghz is possible on average silicon this is because max voltage you can use for non avx stress testing is around 1.225v before temps are late 80 degree C using stock TIM. Cache and mems cant really be pushed on this type of cooling as SA IO volts add to heat output. Cache really goes high on 8700K but in my testing only with voltages around 1.35v+ which is not possible on this type of cooler.
> 
> Overclocking 8700K on 240mm AIO like Asetek 240mm 4.8-4.9ghz is possible on average silicon this is because max voltage you can use for non avx stress testing is around 1.28v before temps are late 80 degree C using stock TIM. Cache and mems cant really be pushed on this type of cooling as SA IO volts add to heat output. Cache really goes high on 8700K but in my testing only with voltages around 1.35v+ which is not possible on this type of cooler.
> 
> *Overclocking in general*
> *Core* - In my testing of many retail CPUs I have found 8700K core OC to be very similar to 7700K OC on the same cooling. If its better its only 100mhz absolute tops better.
> 
> *Cache*- In my testing Cache is better on the 8700K compared to 7700K by at least two ratio. When you can use higher voltages with delid of 1.35v+ then Cache on these CPU can go 4.8-5ghz which improves the efficiency in many tasks equivalent to upto 200mhz CPU clocks. Most 7700K with similar voltages and stress testing liked cache a good 400mhz less.
> 
> *Memory*- Memory OC is very much the same as Z370. 4 Dimm boards are topping out 3866-4000mhz. Good Samsung IC on certain boards doing a little better with good IMC on an Individual CPU. 2 DIMM boards can hit 4266mhz stable without issue but this was the same on Z370. I recommend 8Pack Team Group range as they are all Samsung based IC and can clock very high at tight timings. With even 3200mhz Bin being able to do 3866mhz- 4K C18-C19 in many cases.
> 
> Many vendors have SA and IO voltages set too high for compatability with the worsed IMC's this adds to temperatures and is unnecessary. I suggest 1.05-1.125v for 3200mhz , 1.10-1.15 for 3600mhz and upto 1.2v for 4000mhz. Of Course some IMC need higher for stability but this will cost 3-6C in Core temps. So pay attention to these voltages and tune accordingly.
> 
> ...
> 
> delid is saving upto 25c per core and at least 20C across all cores.
> 
> Here at OCUK we are offering pre delidded CPUs offering similar kind of thermal performance in with pre binned speeds of 5ghz, 5.1ghz and 5.2ghz. The CPUs come with full warranty through OCUK as all our modified CPUs do. All theCPUs run at advertised frequency with 1.35-1.4v through none AVX stress. This is with the Cache at 4400mhz and Memory at 3200mhz C14. With delid we warranty upto 1.425v for 24-7 use. With 1.42v 1.2io 1.2sa none AVX stress you can expect low to mid 80s maximum load on your CPU.
> 
> The testing for delid CPUs and binning is done on one of these three boards ASUS Maximus 10 Hero, AsRock Taichi and Gigabyte Gaming7 its recommended you have a board of this quality to give similar results. The minimum cooling for these CPU's is 240 mm AIO with better cooling you may well achieve one bin higher.


STRIX-F VRM temps at gecid with the airflow of Scythe Mugen 3 (overclock = 5 GHz at 1.408 V. , -300Mhz AVX offset)
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *http://ru.gecid.com/mboard/asus_rog_strix_z370-f_gaming/*
> The cooling system of the board in question consists of three main aluminum radiators. During the testing, the following temperature indicators were recorded:
> 
> radiator cooling chipset - 32.2 ° C (when overclocked - 32.5 ° C);
> the upper radiator cooling elements of the power supply system - 41 ° C (when overclocked - 47.1 ° C);
> the lower radiator for cooling the elements of the power subsystem is 44.5 ° C (when overclocked - 49.3 ° C);
> the chokes of the power subsystem are 52.2 ° C (in the case of overclocking - 62 ° C).


GB Gaming 7 with Corsair H110i GTX https://www.toutiao.com/i6473337205820490254/
Quote:


> CoffeeLake overclocking system and no significant improvement, we measured the two U did not CPU over 5GHz state to run steady Prime 95, and ultimately run the core 4.8GHz, Ring 4.6GHz, and Kabylake system basically the same, memory DDR4-3600 C14-15-15-34. At this point the CPU core voltage 1.275V, VCCIO / VCCSA voltage 1.15V, CPU core maximum temperature came to 97 degrees, even worse 3 degrees to reach Tjmax down.
> 
> At this point the main board power supply (VRM) maximum input power increased to 195.6W, CPU power supply temperature (VRM) is also increased to about 72 degrees, apparently 200W power consumption has not yet reached the limit of this motherboard, the performance is very good.




GB Ultra Gaming with H110i GTX https://www.toutiao.com/i6473351059698876942/
Quote:


> At this point the main board power supply maximum input power increased to 196.8W, CPU power supply temperature is also increased to 108 degrees, 4-phase power supply load is nearly 200W is very good, the temperature is not surprising some.




GB Ultra Gaming is running 2 mosfets per phase
http://lab501.ro/procesoare-chipseturi/english-review-new-charts-intel-core-i7-8700k-intel-core-i5-8600k-coffee-lake-aorus-z370-ultra-gaming/5
Quote:


> Intersil ISL95866 PWM controller, consisting of 4 + 3 phases, two drivers and two mosfets per phase for vCore.


----------



## asdkj1740

gigabyte hd3

cpu pwm:
ISL95866 4+3
integrated 2 drivers for vcore and 1 driver for igpu

4 vcores:
high side 4c10n*2
low side 4c06n*2
2 external physical drivers ISL6625A, marked as 5az xqm

3 igpus:
high side 4c10n*1
low side 4c06n*1
2 external physical drivers ISL6625A, marked as 5az xqm

ddr4 pwm:
RT8120, single phase controller
4c06n*3, seems to be two for low side and one for high side
there is a 4c10n next to those three mosfet. so that can be low side 4c06n*2 & high side 4c10n*1

for mosfets, hd3p as well as ultra gaming probably are the same as hd3.
caps are different for sure.


----------



## aznguyen316

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Techhog*
> 
> So I've tested at multiple voltages and settings and I've come to the conclusion that, at least on this board, AVX instructions don't want to go higher than 1.264V on the Vcore. So, at least for now, I'm just gonna lock AXV at 4.3GHz max. It's a "new" platform, so maybe there's a bug here which needs to be worked out. Inless someone here has an alternate explanation, I think that's something to note.


Hey I've been reading your posts regarding the vdroop. I have an Asus Z370 Asus Prime A and experience the same problem. I have in BIOS manual voltage set at 1.34, when on load whether it's AIDA64 CPU only stress or + FPU test, the voltage max at 1.28V. Fortunately I'm stable at 5Ghz there after testing, but during windows boot I can see voltage actually go up and reach a max of 1.32V so I suppose it is some BIOS issue that needs fixed when on load.

Just another quick test this morning, you can see current load while stressing, but max was where BIOS has been set, that's only seen when in Windows such as after booting. Delid seems to be working well though + custom loop. Good temps at this voltage. 0 Offset for AVX.

BTW which reading in HWMonitor/Hwinfo is for VRMs?


----------



## Exilon

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AlphaC*
> 
> I'm not going to draw any conclusions right now because the MSI Z370 Godlike result didn't seem right to me either.
> If you go by the Intersil Powerstage efficiency (>90% efficiency) and 10°C/W thermal resistance to ambient (no heatsink) then the VRM shouldn't exceed 60°C.
> 
> If there is no other heatsource going into the board and the board is using 2oz copper PCB , 1 sq in of PCB per mosfet (each is 5x5mm) *as per Intersil 10°C/W junction to ambient thermal resistance* would be roughly 55-60°C load temp at maximum assuming > 90% efficiency. That means the heatsink is acting as an insulator.


Jeff replied to my question on the review:
Quote:


> Under the same Prime95 Small FFTs test load I used to hit that 124° C figure (4.9 GHz at 1.32-1.344V, per Gigabyte's prebaked profile), putting a Thermapen Mk4 thermometer probe in contact with the interior of the left VRM heatsink shows 111° F (44° C), while the top heatsink is 104° F-107° F (40° C - 41.6° C).


That looks like a heat sink contact issue more than anything else, assuming the temperature readout was correct.

Might be worth just replacing the VRM thermal pads out of the box to save to hassle removing it after the build to fix it.


----------



## Techhog

This isn't directly VRM related, but at the same time it's basically related to how the Strix boards regulate voltage. It also confirms the issues I've been having. LLC didn't seem to do much of anything and now I know I was right.




Never again, Asus.


----------



## AlphaC

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Techhog*
> 
> This isn't directly VRM related, but at the same time it's basically related to how the Strix boards regulate voltage. It also confirms the issues I've been having. LLC didn't seem to do much of anything and now I know I was right.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Never again, Asus.


@elmor ,help this guy out? We all know the board shouldn't be giving this much trouble.

Anyway if you're within the return period if things don't get sorted within a reasonable time frame (say 2-3 weeks?) I'd get the Asrock Z370 Fatal1ty K6 or Extreme4...
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *aznguyen316*
> 
> Hey I've been reading your posts regarding the vdroop. I have an Asus Z370 Asus Prime A and experience the same problem. I have in BIOS manual voltage set at 1.34, when on load whether it's AIDA64 CPU only stress or + FPU test, the voltage max at 1.28V. Fortunately I'm stable at 5Ghz there after testing, but during windows boot I can see voltage actually go up and reach a max of 1.32V so I suppose it is some BIOS issue that needs fixed when on load.
> 
> Just another quick test this morning, you can see current load while stressing, but max was where BIOS has been set, that's only seen when in Windows such as after booting. Delid seems to be working well though + custom loop. Good temps at this voltage. 0 Offset for AVX.
> 
> BTW which reading in HWMonitor/Hwinfo is for VRMs?


hwinfo64 should list "VRM MOS" or a bunch of temps


----------



## Techhog

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AlphaC*
> 
> @elmor ,help this guy out? We all know the board shouldn't be giving this much trouble.
> 
> Anyway if you're within the return period if things don't get sorted within a reasonable time frame (say 2-3 weeks?) I'd get the Asrock Z370 Fatal1ty K6 or Extreme4...


I fixed the video. You should watch it. Anyway I'm not sure if Newegg will allow it. I'm disappointed that the board was launched with a broken BIOS and is still broken over a week after launch. I picked Asus for quality. It explains why I had to go through so much trouble to get voltage under control. I guess the bright side is that my chip is probably better than it seems and I probably can get 5GHz safely.

The video basically confirms what I suspected: This board currently has no LLC. At all. It also only uses one voltage table for all CPUs of the same model, meaning that it can't be run properly at stock or overclocked. It's a paperweight.


----------



## kd5151

starting to like asrock more and more.


----------



## asdkj1740

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zi-zU2p2ykc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hCAQpvFhiUs

what a joke from asus, asus seems to know nothing about its bios.
asus marketing team / it support is a joke.

thats 1.4v auto reminds me that at the launch of z270, gigabyte mobos also set the auto voltage to almost 1.4v.


----------



## kqpahv

Quote:
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Exilon*
> 
> http://techreport.com/review/32669/gigabyte-z370-aorus-gaming-7-motherboard-reviewed/5
> 
> 124C...
> 
> Sounds like it might be worth replacing the VRM thermal pads on the Gaming 7.


BS. He's got faulty sensors or smth. He didnt mention if he FLIRd it or used software. Im doing 5.3ghz @ 1.39v on my Gaming 7 and my sensors are telling me between 90-100c. Dont have a flir camera though.


----------



## jkampman

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kqpahv*
> 
> BS. He's got faulty sensors or smth. He didnt mention if he FLIRd it or used software. Im doing 5.3ghz @ 1.39v on my Gaming 7 and my sensors are telling me between 90-100c. Dont have a flir camera though.


Hey, writer of the article here. Always happy to discuss the numbers we collect.

The numbers I'm reporting come from the VRM_MOS sensor on the motherboard, as reported by Gigabyte's utilities. It's difficult to use a FLIR camera on stuff that's under heatsinks, so I didn't employ that particular approach here (especially considering that thermal transfer to the heatsinks doesn't seem all that great.)

Just so we're on the same page, are your results coming from Prime95 Small FFTs? Do you have active cooling beyond Gigabyte's fan on the socket? Are you using AVX offset? Delidded CPU or no? Not trying to call your account into question but it's always good to make sure that our setups are cross-comparable.

FWIW, we brought this up with Gigabyte and the folks there said the numbers I was seeing were in line with expectations for the pre-baked OC profile I was using. I wouldn't have reported my experience otherwise.


----------



## AlphaC

@GBT-MatthewH , can we get an official statement from the engineering department that designed the Gaming 7?

@ jkampman ,

Would you happen to have an infrared thermometer in lieu of a FLIR? A infrared thermometer pointed at the back of the board VRM would be a good way to see if it is a sensor issue.


----------



## VRMfreak

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AlphaC*
> 
> Would you happen to have an infrared thermometer in lieu of a FLIR? A infrared thermometer pointed at the back of the board VRM would be a good way to see if it is a sensor issue.


That is the best way. I found out that my sensor reports temps 2-5°C higher than back of the PCB.
I wonder, is there a way to utilize IR3555's temp sensor through windows?


----------



## spddmn24

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *jkampman*
> 
> Hey, writer of the article here. Always happy to discuss the numbers we collect.
> 
> The numbers I'm reporting come from the VRM_MOS sensor on the motherboard, as reported by Gigabyte's utilities. It's difficult to use a FLIR camera on stuff that's under heatsinks, so I didn't employ that particular approach here *(especially considering that thermal transfer to the heatsinks doesn't seem all that great.)*
> 
> Just so we're on the same page, are your results coming from Prime95 Small FFTs? Do you have active cooling beyond Gigabyte's fan on the socket? Are you using AVX offset? Delidded CPU or no? Not trying to call your account into question but it's always good to make sure that our setups are cross-comparable.
> 
> FWIW, we brought this up with Gigabyte and the folks there said the numbers I was seeing were in line with expectations for the pre-baked OC profile I was using. I wouldn't have reported my experience otherwise.


Were the thermal pads making sufficient contact with them?


----------



## AlphaC

https://elchapuzasinformatico.com/2017/10/asrock-fatal1ty-z370-gaming-k6-review/3/


12 total phases split between CPU + other
Asrock K6 had 2 LANs : Intel I219-V + Intel I211AT
https://elchapuzasinformatico.com/2017/10/asrock-fatal1ty-z370-gaming-k6-review/3/

ASUS ROG STRIX Z370-I Gaming
ON Semi 4C86N
datasheet http://www.onsemi.com/pub/Collateral/NTMFD4C86N-D.PDF
it's a dual N-channel mosfet but with 20A absolute maximum
Efficiency isn't stellar





http://www.coolpc.com.tw/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=70&t=243669&sid=c9a87245bf5de6181ab239ea98a56da5

Matches the table of specifications on hardware.info https://be.hardware.info/product/412493/asus-rog-strix-z370-i-gaming/specificaties

Hardwareluxx's Confirmation of Gigabyte Z370 Ultra Gaming
https://www.hardwareluxx.de/index.php/news/hardware/mainboards/44505-gigabyte-z370-aorus-ultra-gaming-das-coffee-lake-s-mainboard-im-detail-vorgestellt.html?start=1

5.8GHz Engineering sample i7-8700k + dry ice GB Gaming 7

http://www.coolaler.com/threads/gigabyte-z370-aorus-gaming7-intel-core-i7-8700k-i5-8600k-5ghz-vs-ryzen-5-1600-4ghz.347524/

5.8GHz Engineering sample i7-8700k + dry ice ROG APEX

http://www.coolaler.com/threads/ddr4-4600asus-rog-maximus-x-apex8700k-5ghz-i5-8600k-5ghz-vs-ryzen-5-1600-4ghz.347525/

5.8GHz Engineering sample i7-8700k + dry ice ROG HERO

http://www.coolaler.com/threads/asus-rog-maximus-x-hero-intel-core-i7-8700k-i5-8600k-5ghz-vs-ryzen-5-1600-4ghz.347527/

Overclocking results on 1.3V at hexus now have the Z370 Pro Carbon

http://hexus.net/tech/reviews/mainboard/110954-msi-z370-gaming-pro-carbon-ac/?page=8


----------



## Tasm

Can we assume Asrock Z370 mobos have some problem regarding needing mucher higher voltages than the competetion to reach similar Overclocks?


----------



## Sin0822

On the GBT boards I see two LLC levels, one for the PWM and one for the internal CPU VR (the CPu has an internal VR, but it's not like Sky-X or Haswell, so no one talks about it, but even Skylake had it). I see on boards, without these tuned, needing more voltage, but that's a BIOS issue that can be solved.

That being said, Intersil's PWMs are very new, at least the new ones, so if you ask GBT they will shoot up the program and see if they see the same as you, at least when you talk to marketing, it doesn't mean there isn't a bug in there. So far three boards, three different vendors, GBT's is doing the best in terms of controlled VRm temps (although by 1C compared to another vendors so basically the same). HWinfo could be reporting true readings as the new PWMs have that ability and the others could be sending an estimate (GBTs fan spins up at 90C and i never see it spin). The truth is, just like it always has been, software is not that great for voltage/current /temp monitoring. Every phase's temp is different, so what is the reading that is being shot out?

Also FLIR= Forward Looking Infrared, but FLIR is mostly a brand, most use long wave infrared, which is 7.2 -13 microns .


----------



## HKPolice

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Sin0822*
> 
> On the GBT boards I see two LLC levels, one for the PWM and one for the internal CPU VR (the CPu has an internal VR, but it's not like Sky-X or Haswell, so no one talks about it, but even Skylake had it). I see on boards, without these tuned, needing more voltage, but that's a BIOS issue that can be solved.
> 
> That being said, Intersil's PWMs are very new, at least the new ones, so if you ask GBT they will shoot up the program and see if they see the same as you, at least when you talk to marketing, it doesn't mean there isn't a bug in there. So far three boards, three different vendors, GBT's is doing the best in terms of controlled VRm temps (although by 1C compared to another vendors so basically the same). HWinfo could be reporting true readings as the new PWMs have that ability and the others could be sending an estimate (GBTs fan spins up at 90C and i never see it spin). The truth is, just like it always has been, software is not that great for voltage/current /temp monitoring. Every phase's temp is different, so what is the reading that is being shot out?
> 
> Also FLIR= Forward Looking Infrared, but FLIR is mostly a brand, most use long wave infrared, which is 7.2 -13 microns .


Are both LLC levels adjustable with the GB Gaming K7 board? How come no one talks about the internal CPU VR? How important is it to overclocking?


----------



## Sin0822

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *HKPolice*
> 
> Are both LLC levels adjustable with the GB Gaming K7 board? How come no one talks about the internal CPU VR? How important is it to overclocking?


They are adjustable down to the BIOS engineer's settings, so like turbo, extreme, standard, etc.

They didn't really make much difference before, but now they might, i remember that a Z170 supermicro board only had internal LLC, and i messed with it and found that it made a big difference, i think they also impact the external PWm as well. Perhaps now, Intel changed their defaults to account for the higher power draw of the new CPUs.


----------



## ls1088

Found this board after some deep digging. I'm tempted to buy this for its 10 USB type-A back panel ports while most others have only 5-7.

https://videocardz.net/mobo/colorful-z370-igame-vulcan-x/

I cannot find any official information about it. Sells for 1500 CNY (~227 USD) in chinese online stores.

http://news.mydrivers.com/1/550/550436.htm

Can anyone speaking chinese translate the specs?


----------



## asdkj1740

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ls1088*
> 
> Found this board after some deep digging. I'm tempted to buy this for its 10 USB type-A back panel ports while most others have only 5-7.
> 
> https://videocardz.net/mobo/colorful-z370-igame-vulcan-x/
> 
> I cannot find any official information about it. Sells for 1500 CNY (~227 USD) in chinese online stores.
> 
> http://news.mydrivers.com/1/550/550436.htm
> 
> Can anyone speaking chinese translate the specs?


http://en.colorful.cn/product_show.aspx?mid=102&id=461&action=Specifications#dark
?


----------



## ls1088

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *asdkj1740*
> 
> http://en.colorful.cn/product_show.aspx?mid=102&id=461&action=Specifications#dark
> ?


Doesn't say anything about the VRM though which is what I'm really intersted in
The chokes says IPP on them but that's about it.


----------



## XPrecep

Double posted by accident because of the new-user moderation check. See my post below. Sorry.


----------



## kqpahv

Quote:
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Exilon*
> 
> http://techreport.com/review/32669/gigabyte-z370-aorus-gaming-7-motherboard-reviewed/5
> 
> 124C...
> 
> Sounds like it might be worth replacing the VRM thermal pads on the Gaming 7.


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *jkampman*
> 
> Hey, writer of the article here. Always happy to discuss the numbers we collect.
> 
> The numbers I'm reporting come from the VRM_MOS sensor on the motherboard, as reported by Gigabyte's utilities. It's difficult to use a FLIR camera on stuff that's under heatsinks, so I didn't employ that particular approach here (especially considering that thermal transfer to the heatsinks doesn't seem all that great.)
> 
> Just so we're on the same page, are your results coming from Prime95 Small FFTs? Do you have active cooling beyond Gigabyte's fan on the socket? Are you using AVX offset? Delidded CPU or no? Not trying to call your account into question but it's always good to make sure that our setups are cross-comparable.
> 
> FWIW, we brought this up with Gigabyte and the folks there said the numbers I was seeing were in line with expectations for the pre-baked OC profile I was using. I wouldn't have reported my experience otherwise.


Hi there !

I will try to do an apples to apples recorded run again tonight matching the same frequencies and volts you were using.

Currently using:

Aorus z370 Gaming 7
Intel 8700K (not delidded yet but will be delidding today !)
Noctua U14 with a single fan on auto pointed towards the IO
16GB Corsair 3200Mhz CL 16 Ram
Open test bench
19-20C ambient

I was also using small FTT's. No additional cooling but there is some airflow coming from CPU cooler. AVX was offset to 4.9GHZ.

Prime95 is the only application I can get the tiny VRM fan spinning and even that happen at least 10 minutes in. The fan only kicks in at 90c so I am obviously not seeing temps not even as high anywhere else and i have also done hours long h265 decoding runs as well.

Tiny Tom Logan from OC3D also mentioned the vrm temps in his review:

https://youtu.be/gTSt8sPGmMQ?t=116


----------



## asdkj1740

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ls1088*
> 
> Doesn't say anything about the VRM though which is what I'm really intersted in
> The chokes says IPP on them but that's about it.


you just said you are satisfied with those usbs on the back io.
vrm & pos caps good.
http://www.xfastest.com/thread-201440-1-1.html


----------



## XPrecep

Is the only 2xDIMM board currently available the mITX STRIX?

I wanted a 2xDIMM board for the potential memory performance, but I don't think I'll be able to wait for the Apex. The Vdroop issues with the STRIX boards are putting me off the mITX too. Struggling to find a board.

Think I'll settle for 4 DIMM based on that.
How is the Hero? Can't find a lot of information in this thread about the VRM so far in this thread.

Thinking I'll buy the Hero and one other board for testing right now. Trying to push a delidded 8700K as far as I can for core/cache/memory, ambient cooling - custom water if I can get the parts - for 5-10K hours 24/7 across a year. I don't care about form factor or price.
Based on the VRM quality of the boards that will be available before the 23rd, which one looks the best? Consensus seems a little unsure on the Gaming 7, same for the Godlike.


----------



## ls1088

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *asdkj1740*
> 
> you just said you are satisfied with those usbs on the back io.
> vrm & pos caps good.
> http://www.xfastest.com/thread-201440-1-1.html


So the controller is a bit better and the mosfets worse compared to the Asrock extreme4 according to my 5 minutes of research


----------



## asdkj1740

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ls1088*
> 
> So the controller is a bit better and the mosfets worse compared to the Asrock extreme4 according to my 5 minutes of research


8 phases vcore should be more than enough, dont need to worry too much.


----------



## Sin0822

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ls1088*
> 
> Found this board after some deep digging. I'm tempted to buy this for its 10 USB type-A back panel ports while most others have only 5-7.
> 
> https://videocardz.net/mobo/colorful-z370-igame-vulcan-x/
> 
> I cannot find any official information about it. Sells for 1500 CNY (~227 USD) in chinese online stores.
> 
> http://news.mydrivers.com/1/550/550436.htm
> 
> Can anyone speaking chinese translate the specs?


Colorful typically only sells their boards in the east, you would have to import one if you are in the USA


----------



## kqpahv

Quote:


> Hey, writer of the article here. Always happy to discuss the numbers we collect.
> 
> The numbers I'm reporting come from the VRM_MOS sensor on the motherboard, as reported by Gigabyte's utilities. It's difficult to use a FLIR camera on stuff that's under heatsinks, so I didn't employ that particular approach here (especially considering that thermal transfer to the heatsinks doesn't seem all that great.)
> 
> Just so we're on the same page, are your results coming from Prime95 Small FFTs? Do you have active cooling beyond Gigabyte's fan on the socket? Are you using AVX offset? Delidded CPU or no? Not trying to call your account into question but it's always good to make sure that our setups are cross-comparable.
> 
> FWIW, we brought this up with Gigabyte and the folks there said the numbers I was seeing were in line with expectations for the pre-baked OC profile I was using. I wouldn't have reported my experience otherwise.


Hey there !

So I updated the bios today on my Aorus Gaming 7 and now the VRM sensor disappears after hitting 80C.

There is most likeley a problem with that sensor !

My results were from small FTT, 5.3Ghz, AVX offset 4.

The CPU is now delidded but wasnt at that point.
I'm not using any additional cooling but there is some airflow coming from my CPU air cooler. I am running it on a open test bed @ 19-20c ambient.

What made my alarm bells ring with your post was the fact that the small VRM fan will start spinning over 90c and it's impossible to trigger it anywhere else but prime95. Even then it takes atleast 10-15 minutes to reach 90C.

This was also mentioned in Tiny Tom Logan review:

https://youtu.be/gTSt8sPGmMQ?t=117


----------



## Sin0822

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kqpahv*
> 
> So I updated the bios today on my Aorus Gaming 7 and now the VRM sensor disappears after hitting 80C.
> 
> There is most likeley a problem with that sensor !


A few years ago, i had asked some BIOS guys why they would hide the VRM or MOS sensor, and not implement it in the UEFI or windows. They said the answer is very very simple, the truth would scare people as they wouldn't understand why the temps were high. VRMs run very hot inside the FETs, and temps over 100C are typical, but it would freak people out. So there are two options; #1 put in an artificial offset to make it look more like CPu temperature, #2 hide it.


----------



## Telstar

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Tasm*
> 
> Can we assume Asrock Z370 mobos have some problem regarding needing mucher higher voltages than the competetion to reach similar Overclocks?


From where do u assume such?


----------



## Tasm

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Telstar*
> 
> From where do u assume such?


Every single review out there regarding Asrock Z370 mobos requires more (alot) more voltage to match the same overclock level as other mobos, particulary, Gigabyte ones.


----------



## Telstar

Any review comparing both brands? Otherwise it can well be the cpu


----------



## Tasm

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Telstar*
> 
> Any review comparing both brands? Otherwise it can well be the cpu


Same cpu. Generally speaking, best results are from GA, worse from MSI and Asrock. Something is wrong with Asrock mobos.


----------



## jellybeans69

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kqpahv*
> 
> My results were from small FTT, 5.3Ghz, AVX offset 4.


What's the point of testing Prime95/IBT if u'r basically running AVX instructions at 4.9 in reality?


----------



## kqpahv

No other point to create as much power draw and heat as possible to test VRM capabilities. I dont care about AVX otherwise as it's pretty useless anyway in real life.


----------



## jellybeans69

DX12 games can use AVX instructions
PS3 emulator also uses AVX instruction set

Just few examples. Not really useless in real-world scenarios.


----------



## Sin0822

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Tasm*
> 
> Same cpu. Generally speaking, best results are from GA, worse from MSI and Asrock. Something is wrong with Asrock mobos.


Where is the review?


----------



## TheRealisation

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Sin0822*
> 
> Where is the review?


I believe he might be referring to the vortez.net reviews:
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *vortez.net*
> Extreme4 was able to reach the 5GHz milestone with the 8700K but to reach such an achievement we had to increase the CPU core voltage beyond 1.4v to 1.42v. This meant that temperatures rose quite rapidly.


On their review for the Aorus ultra gaming they say they needed 1.37 V for 5 GHz and 1.39 V for the Strix F and Pro Carbon.

https://www.vortez.net/articles_pages/asrock_z370_extreme4_review,5.html


----------



## AlphaC

It wouldn't surprise me if V_Droop is present which would be why they need 1.4V+

OCUK specified early BIOs versions on both the Asrock Z370 Taichi and Asus Maximus X Hero had VDroop problems


Extreme4 VRM
https://post.smzdm.com/p/605865/

K6 VRM with Fairchild parts???


https://level1techs.com/video/asrock-fatal1ty-z370-gaming-k6-motherboard-review-linux-test

* Keep in mind that Intel rushed the i7-8700k launch, it was originally 2018. BIOS problems, if fixed in a TIMELY manner, are forgivable. Outright bad VRM (vs Z270) when Intel specified that the power delivery needed to be upgraded is inexcusable.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *jellybeans69*
> 
> @AlphaC so far that Asus Z370-Plus is working alright for me 8600k 4.9 ghz AVX stable at 1.33v/5.2 ghz 1.360-1.392v real, AVX Offset 3 are rock stable, but ya it's the lowest end of available boards and vdrop is pretty big - like 0.3-0.4v and LLC feels useless (i believe this is broken on all asus boards except Maximus at the moment). Package power doesn't seem to exceed 139w , pretty sure you mentioned in initial post that 150w was limit for those 160$ low end boards in main post.
> Highest board temp i saw when testing was around 50c when i was feeding cpu like 1.435v under full avx load


<150W was based on the CPU coolers that are normally 120mm fans when < 1200RPM with 4 heatpipes of 6mm diameter. For example: Cryorig H7 (a 3 heatpipe version exists as well), Coolermaster 212 Evo, Be Quiet Pure Rock, Thermalright True Spirit 120 Direct, Arctic Freezer 33, Deepcool Gammax 400, Enermax ETS-T40F-RF (the 1800RPM one is rated 200W),Scythe Kotetsu, Thermaltake Contac 12 Silent (a top seller on Amazon), etc

Also, Tom's hardware hit 80°C CPU temp when they overclocked past 150W or so (not delid). This was watercooled too.

Just keep in mind board temp is NOT VRM temp.


----------



## jellybeans69

@AlphaC so far that Asus Z370-Plus is working alright for me 8600k 4.9 ghz AVX stable at 1.33v/5.2 ghz 1.360-1.392v real, AVX Offset 3 are rock stable, but ya it's the lowest end of available boards and vdrop is pretty big - like 0.3-0.4v and LLC feels useless (i believe this is broken on all asus boards except Maximus at the moment). Package power doesn't seem to exceed 139w , pretty sure you mentioned in initial post that 150w was limit for those 160$ low end boards in main post.
Highest board temp i saw when testing was around 50c when i was feeding cpu like 1.435v under full avx load
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AlphaC*
> 
> Just keep in mind board temp is NOT VRM temp.


Yeah that much i know, just a reference point as there aren't much sensors on this board i can read from software ) Also few 12 cm coolers around the case to help cooling them.
I'm using Noctua DH15s , 4.9 / 1.33v avx load was 82c max , 5.2 / offset 3 is big higher cuz i'm using 1.392v - idle / it's around 1.37 in medium load.


----------



## Sin0822

Those farichild dual n-channel look like the 25A variant, like NexFETs.


----------



## bloot

K6 fets seem to be those http://www.bdtic.com/en/fairchild/FDPC5030SG


----------



## Tasm

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Sin0822*
> 
> Where is the review?


There isnt a direct comparison review yet, but you can assume it by looking at the various reviews made with other mobos.

https://www.vortez.net/articles_pages/asrock_z370_extreme4_review,5.html

vs

https://www.vortez.net/articles_pages/asus_rog_strix_z370_f_gaming_review,1.html

https://www.vortez.net/articles_pages/msi_z370_gaming_pro_carbon_ac_review,1.html

https://www.vortez.net/articles_pages/gigabyte_z370_aorus_ultra_gaming_review,1.html

https://www.vortez.net/articles_pages/asus_rog_strix_x370_f_gaming_review,1.html

https://proclockers.com/reviews/motherboards/asrock-z370-taichi-motherboard-review/page/0/6

vs

https://proclockers.com/reviews/motherboards/gigabyte-z370-aorus-ultra-gaming-motherboard-review/page/0/7

https://proclockers.com/reviews/motherboards/msi-z370-gaming-pro-carbon-ac-motherboard-review

I see a pattern to be honest. *But lets not jump to conclusions*. Wait for more reviews.


----------



## Sin0822

Actually, i saw this as well, slightly more VCore, but it was due to LLC. I was using BIOS version 1.13A, which is a beta the board came with, so i didn't bother updating it to version 1.1 which is official and on their website. I asked ASrock about this and they are looking into it as they said they tested with official and it should be okay.


----------



## AlphaC

I PMed Nick Shih from Asrock.

"we have new bios . but seems our bios team has mistake that forgot update on website .

We will fix that on Monday."

He linked me the new bios that fixed LLC but didn't mention if it is for public consumption.

Also from 8pack's thread _All screenshots using AsRock Taichi as the board are when I had an early Bios with a poor LLC curve. So CPUZ reading 1.45 is actually 1.4v under heavy load. Later Bios fixed this issue._
https://forums.overclockers.co.uk/threads/8packs-no-bs-testing-intel-8700k-and-z370-with-delid-5ghz-and-above-available-from-ocuk.18795262/


----------



## br0da

Could you also ask him to clarify the choice of FETs on the ASRock boards?


----------



## Tasm

I am very interested to fully understand the vrm quality on Extreme 4 / K6. They look primising, despite the price tag.


----------



## drumsticks

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Telstar*
> 
> If you can wait, evga announced a mATX board that looks very good.


Any chance we know more about the EVGA micro board yet? Is there any way to tell if it looks better on paper than the Z370-G? I don't particularly care about looks.

Finally decided to make an account. Looking to gather some more info for a delidded 8700k. I'd really like to go mATX if I can (have a case and everything set up already), but if EVGA isn't meaningfully better than the Z370-G Strix, I might go for an ATX case and board. Hoping to find more info about the EVGA micro, but I guess EVGA probably hasn't released any more info on it yet?


----------



## br0da

ASUS ROG Maximus X Hero:

source: http://www.coolenjoy.net/bbs/review/524256?p=4
BSG0812ND Infineon FETs without a public datasheet but look at the ones from its brothers BSG0811ND and BSG0813ND. These OptiMOS are pretty awesome.
The ASP1400BT seems to run in 4+2 mode while the drivers outputs seem to get used for two VCC phases each. But I'm missing one more driver for the second VCCGT phase...









*Edit:*
ASRock K6: https://www.hardwareluxx.de/community/f12/intel-refresh-point-mainboards-ft-300-series-chipsets-coffee-lake-s-lga1151-v2-1175012-5.html#post25880924


----------



## kevindd992002

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *br0da*
> 
> ASUS ROG Maximus X Hero:
> 
> source: http://www.coolenjoy.net/bbs/review/524256?p=4
> BSG0812ND Infineon FETs without a public datasheet but look at the ones from its brothers BSG0811ND and BSG0813ND. These OptiMOS are pretty awesome.
> The ASP1400BT seems to run in 4+2 mode while the drivers outputs seem to get used for two VCC phases each. But I'm missing one more driver for the second VCCGT phase...


When you say brothers, are you referring to the Code and Formula? So they have better MOSFET/VRM components than the Hero?


----------



## br0da

No I'm referring to BSG0811ND and BSG0813ND.
-> https://www.infineon.com/dgdl/Infineon-BSG0811ND-DS-v02_01-EN.pdf?fileId=5546d4624bcaebcf014c2d01f1490263
-> http://www.datasheet-pdf.com/PDF/BSG0813NDI-Datasheet-Infineon-968324


----------



## kevindd992002

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *br0da*
> 
> No I'm referring to BSG0811ND and BSG0813ND.
> -> https://www.infineon.com/dgdl/Infineon-BSG0811ND-DS-v02_01-EN.pdf?fileId=5546d4624bcaebcf014c2d01f1490263
> -> http://www.datasheet-pdf.com/PDF/BSG0813NDI-Datasheet-Infineon-968324


Ah I see what you're seeing, sorry.


----------



## Telstar

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *drumsticks*
> 
> Any chance we know more about the EVGA micro board yet? Is there any way to tell if it looks better on paper than the Z370-G? I don't particularly care about looks.
> 
> Finally decided to make an account. Looking to gather some more info for a delidded 8700k. I'd really like to go mATX if I can (have a case and everything set up already), but if EVGA isn't meaningfully better than the Z370-G Strix, I might go for an ATX case and board. Hoping to find more info about the EVGA micro, but I guess EVGA probably hasn't released any more info on it yet?


They are always late to market, but from what i read it has much better components than any board in the strix line.
https://www.evga.com/articles/01151/evga-z370-series-motherboards/


----------



## AlphaC

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *br0da*
> 
> Could you also ask him to clarify the choice of FETs on the ASRock boards?


It's early morning in Asia now









Maybe you can try PMing him later , his username on OCN is _Nickshih_
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Tasm*
> 
> I am very interested to fully understand the vrm quality on Extreme 4 / K6. They look promising, despite the price tag.


Theorem:
If Z370 Fatal1ty Gaming Pro i7 is the baseline BIOS development board for Z370 Fatal1ty series
& Z370 Fatal1ty K6 uses the same baseline BIOs and several users reported the same VRM parts as the Z370 Taichi (the Fairchild variants) including the VRM heatsink , total chokes / inductors, & total capacitors

Then Z370 Fatal1ty K6 is a suitable board for overclocking.

Also as far as memory


https://forums.overclockers.co.uk/posts/31241412


----------



## elmor

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AlphaC*
> 
> @elmor ,help this guy out? We all know the board shouldn't be giving this much trouble.
> 
> Anyway if you're within the return period if things don't get sorted within a reasonable time frame (say 2-3 weeks?) I'd get the Asrock Z370 Fatal1ty K6 or Extreme4...
> hwinfo64 should list "VRM MOS" or a bunch of temps


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Techhog*
> 
> I fixed the video. You should watch it. Anyway I'm not sure if Newegg will allow it. I'm disappointed that the board was launched with a broken BIOS and is still broken over a week after launch. I picked Asus for quality. It explains why I had to go through so much trouble to get voltage under control. I guess the bright side is that my chip is probably better than it seems and I probably can get 5GHz safely.
> 
> The video basically confirms what I suspected: This board currently has no LLC. At all. It also only uses one voltage table for all CPUs of the same model, meaning that it can't be run properly at stock or overclocked. It's a paperweight.


Grabbed a board, confirmed LLC settings are messed up. Level 0 is ok, the rest are wrong. BIOS update will fix it. CPU-Z/SIO reading is relatively accurate on this board. Error is at most about 15mV compared to DMM MLCC reading.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Sin0822*
> 
> On the GBT boards I see two LLC levels, one for the PWM and one for the internal CPU VR (the CPu has an internal VR, but it's not like Sky-X or Haswell, so no one talks about it, but even Skylake had it). I see on boards, without these tuned, needing more voltage, but that's a BIOS issue that can be solved.
> 
> That being said, Intersil's PWMs are very new, at least the new ones, so if you ask GBT they will shoot up the program and see if they see the same as you, at least when you talk to marketing, it doesn't mean there isn't a bug in there. So far three boards, three different vendors, GBT's is doing the best in terms of controlled VRm temps (although by 1C compared to another vendors so basically the same). HWinfo could be reporting true readings as the new PWMs have that ability and the others could be sending an estimate (GBTs fan spins up at 90C and i never see it spin). The truth is, just like it always has been, software is not that great for voltage/current /temp monitoring. Every phase's temp is different, so what is the reading that is being shot out?
> 
> Also FLIR= Forward Looking Infrared, but FLIR is mostly a brand, most use long wave infrared, which is 7.2 -13 microns .


There's no IVR on Skylake/Kaby Lake/Coffe Lake. There's an SVID interface which allows the CPU to request a voltage from the motherboard VRM. The IA AC/DC loadline adds a value to the requested VID depending on the load to compensate for droop. It's visible by monitoring the VID value in for example HWInfo.


----------



## Sin0822

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *elmor*
> 
> Grabbed a board, confirmed LLC settings are messed up. Level 0 is ok, the rest are wrong. BIOS update will fix it. CPU-Z/SIO reading is relatively accurate on this board. Error is at most about 15mV compared to DMM MLCC reading.
> There's no IVR on Skylake/Kaby Lake/Coffe Lake. There's an SVID interface which allows the CPU to request a voltage from the motherboard VRM. The IA AC/DC loadline adds a value to the requested VID depending on the load to compensate for droop. It's visible by monitoring the VID value in for example HWInfo.


I confirmed with others, that is there is rudimentary linear VR built into the uarch, but it's nothing like an FIVR or a switching VR like in Skylake-X or haswell, but you are right it's not like the FIVR we are used to on other platforms.

http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/7062973/?reload=true&tp=&arnumber=7062973&url=http:%2F%2Fieeexplore.ieee.org%2Fiel7%2F7054075%2F7062838%2F07062973.pdf%3Farnumber%3D7062973

I asked David Kanter about it and he confirmed it at Intel's Skylake launch event, and that paper was written by Intel's team that designed Skylake, but yea, it's not a true switching regulator and it doesn't have nearly a hardcore impact as a real full fledged VR, in this case it just regulates and doesn't really do anything in terms of converting voltages like an FIVR.

Also unrelated- ASrock just emailed over official BIOS for their Z370 boards to fix their LLC issues.


----------



## Sin0822

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AlphaC*
> 
> It's early morning in Asia now
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe you can try PMing him later , his username on OCN is _Nickshih_
> Theorem:
> If Z370 Fatal1ty Gaming Pro i7 is the baseline BIOS development board for Z370 Fatal1ty series
> & Z370 Fatal1ty K6 uses the same baseline BIOs and several users reported the same VRM parts as the Z370 Taichi (the Fairchild variants) including the VRM heatsink , total chokes / inductors, & total capacitors
> 
> Then Z370 Fatal1ty K6 is a suitable board for overclocking.
> 
> Also as far as memory
> 
> 
> https://forums.overclockers.co.uk/posts/31241412


The Taichi is the base board PCB for the Fatal1ty series from what i can tell by the hardware (missing parts and empty solder pads), it's typically this way.


----------



## elmor

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Sin0822*
> 
> I confirmed with others, that is there is rudimentary linear VR built into the uarch, but it's nothing like an FIVR or a switching VR like in Skylake-X or haswell, but you are right it's not like the FIVR we are used to on other platforms.
> 
> http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/7062973/?reload=true&tp=&arnumber=7062973&url=http:%2F%2Fieeexplore.ieee.org%2Fiel7%2F7054075%2F7062838%2F07062973.pdf%3Farnumber%3D7062973
> 
> I asked David Kanter about it and he confirmed it at Intel's Skylake launch event, and that paper was written by Intel's team that designed Skylake, but yea, it's not a true switching regulator and it doesn't have nearly a hardcore impact as a real full fledged VR, in this case it just regulates and doesn't really do anything in terms of converting voltages like an FIVR.
> 
> Also unrelated- ASrock just emailed over official BIOS for their Z370 boards to fix their LLC issues.


I seriously doubt this. There's no mention of this in internal Intel papers. Got any other source? The linked paper describes an LDO capable of up to 4A at roughly 75mV dropout voltage. You do realize you'd need minimum 50A capability per core to support the most extreme cases? Efficiency is a problem with LDOs where Ploss = (Vin-Vout)*Iout. Lets take a case of 100A total core current, and an ideal case of the quoted 75mV dropout (highly unlikely, especially at that current). That's 7.5W of additional power loss on the CPU die which would require some serious benefits for it to be implemented. Basically it would come down to improved regulation. Furthermore, the paper is using a 4uF output cap and from what I can find you can get about 0.5uF/mm^2 on-die capacitance. That would be a lot of space wasted on the chip.


----------



## Exilon

LDOs for internal voltage regulation from Vdd isn't particularly novel nowadays. Ryzen has it as well.


----------



## Chrisch

ASRock Z370 Gaming K6 (retail)


----------



## elmor

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Exilon*
> 
> LDOs for internal voltage regulation from Vdd isn't particularly novel nowadays. Ryzen has it as well.


However it's not enabled on anything but Naples because of the higher current required on desktop/HEDT, especially when overclocking.


----------



## asdkj1740

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Chrisch*
> 
> ASRock Z370 Gaming K6 (retail)


nice, finally a clear pic to show what is the ic behind the mosfet.
ISL6596
https://www.intersil.com/content/dam/Intersil/documents/isl6/isl6596.pdf

it seems that isl6596 is not a doubler but just a driver which drives two dual n channel mosfet.


----------



## VenomDiff

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Tasm*
> 
> Same cpu. Generally speaking, best results are from GA, worse from MSI and Asrock. Something is wrong with Asrock mobos.


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Tasm*
> 
> There isnt a direct comparison review yet, but you can assume it by looking at the various reviews made with other mobos.
> 
> https://www.vortez.net/articles_pages/asrock_z370_extreme4_review,5.html
> 
> vs
> 
> https://www.vortez.net/articles_pages/asus_rog_strix_z370_f_gaming_review,1.html
> 
> https://www.vortez.net/articles_pages/msi_z370_gaming_pro_carbon_ac_review,1.html
> 
> https://www.vortez.net/articles_pages/gigabyte_z370_aorus_ultra_gaming_review,1.html
> 
> https://www.vortez.net/articles_pages/asus_rog_strix_x370_f_gaming_review,1.html
> 
> https://proclockers.com/reviews/motherboards/asrock-z370-taichi-motherboard-review/page/0/6
> 
> vs
> 
> https://proclockers.com/reviews/motherboards/gigabyte-z370-aorus-ultra-gaming-motherboard-review/page/0/7
> 
> https://proclockers.com/reviews/motherboards/msi-z370-gaming-pro-carbon-ac-motherboard-review
> 
> I see a pattern to be honest. *But lets not jump to conclusions*. Wait for more reviews.


Can you help me to choose a mobo? I'm new to VRMs and other technical info in mobos.

So I am considering between the ASRock Extreme4, the Fatal1ty K6 for an extra $30-40, or should I go GA with the ultragaming because of possible ASRock BIOS/VRMs problems and maybe better overclocking? Prices are all in the range $150-230.

I'm planning to do some OC with the 8700K but nothing big... I'd be more than happy with 4.9GHz cooled by a Noctua NH-D15


----------



## murenitu

The Maximus Hero X, have this problem? because I do not think so, am I right?


----------



## Tasm

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *VenomDiff*
> 
> Can you help me to choose a mobo? I'm new to VRMs and other technical info in mobos.
> 
> So I am considering between the ASRock Extreme4, the Fatal1ty K6 for an extra $30-40, or should I go GA with the ultragaming because of possible ASRock BIOS/VRMs problems and maybe better overclocking? Prices are all in the range $150-230.
> 
> I'm planning to do some OC with the 8700K but nothing big... I'd be more than happy with 4.9GHz cooled by a Noctua NH-D15


Well...i am in the same situation. Your safest bet at this point would be Gaming 5 and Gaming 7.

But i am not sure if Asrock mobos really have some problem. Those VRMs look promissing. Lets wait a bit for more reviews and more details regarding the vrms used in Asrock mobos.

Anyway, K6 should be very solid.

My doubt here is if Extreme 4 uses similar parts.


----------



## Sin0822

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *elmor*
> 
> I seriously doubt this. There's no mention of this in internal Intel papers. Got any other source? The linked paper describes an LDO capable of up to 4A at roughly 75mV dropout voltage. You do realize you'd need minimum 50A capability per core to support the most extreme cases? Efficiency is a problem with LDOs where Ploss = (Vin-Vout)*Iout. Lets take a case of 100A total core current, and an ideal case of the quoted 75mV dropout (highly unlikely, especially at that current). That's 7.5W of additional power loss on the CPU die which would require some serious benefits for it to be implemented. Basically it would come down to improved regulation. Furthermore, the paper is using a 4uF output cap and from what I can find you can get about 0.5uF/mm^2 on-die capacitance. That would be a lot of space wasted on the chip.


Only David Kanter (and i trust him), and he just confirmed there are multiple linear regulators built into the CPU, but I am getting more details about it. He did say the PCU controls these linear VRs and he suspects they control larger blocks within different CPU areas such as L2 cache and vector units. I am getting more details from him, but he said I could site my email conversation with him (I asked about documentation and he said it isn't documented directly). If anyone is wondering, this is David: http://www.linleygroup.com/analyst_detail.php?David-Kanter-23 He also publishes at RealWorldTech on microarchitectures. Anyways, I am realizing that maybe i misunderstood him when he originally told me about the VRs built into the uarch, I figured we could control them externally but perhaps we can't, however, I am asking him about how the integrated VR settings in the BIOS would effect these linear regulators, if at all.


----------



## br0da

More pictures of the Taichi - but I still don't get how that design works...


----------



## tiango

Hey guys.
For the regular joe that looks for a good bang for the buck and some reasonably oc, do you think there's much of a difference between a mid range msi mobo and an Asus one?
I like that the msi in general come with more usb ports and fan headers.

Particularly I think that the MSI Z370M GAMING PRO AC offers a very good bang for the buck (Wi-Fi and blue tooth, realtek 1220, sli), but I don't know if the oc capabilities would be much worse than the likes of the asus prime z370a or the strix z370h.

I'd be using it with a noctua nh u14s or a thermalright le grand macho rt.
Thanks!


----------



## AlphaC

br0da, I think Fairchild and SM7341 is a situation of alternate suppliers.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_hw2hqW7dMI

Luckily ANYONE can find out without removing heatsinks on the Taichi/Fatal1ty i7. The memory phases are not heatsinked and unlike the ASUS ROG boards, there are the same (brand) mosfets for memory phases.

(see https://news.xfastest.com/review/41734/asrock-z370-taichi/)


As such, I think that the Fatal1ty i7 needs to be downgraded to "top of midrange". Clearly the price is for 10Gbps LAN and other such things.

It seems the size of the mosfets on the Fatal1ty K6 and Extreme4 for memory is not the same footprint (i.e. not the same parts), so I think that is another major difference (as far as memory overclock).

(example Extreme4 review http://pc.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/topic/review/1084754.html)


example K6 review https://www.techtesters.eu/asrock-z370-gaming-k6-review/


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *tiango*
> 
> Hey guys.
> For the regular joe that looks for a good bang for the buck and some reasonably oc, do you think there's much of a difference between a mid range msi mobo and an Asus one?
> I like that the msi in general come with more usb ports and fan headers.
> 
> Particularly I think that the MSI Z370M GAMING PRO AC offers a very good bang for the buck (Wi-Fi and blue tooth, realtek 1220, sli), but I don't know if the oc capabilities would be much worse than the likes of the asus prime z370a or the strix z370h.
> 
> I'd be using it with a noctua nh u14s or a thermalright le grand macho rt.
> Thanks!


If not delidding your CPU will hold you back more than the motherboard. For now the ~$160 z370 Fatal1ty K6 seems the best value (price/perf rather than outright cheap) ATX board. If you need wifi it has the wifi slot so you can just buy the card and slot it in.

At ~ $170-180 I wouldn't call the Z370M Gaming Pro AC a great value. If you get a variant with OnSemi parts at best it's on par with a ASUS Z370-A or STRIX-F. It's not a terrible value, but not a great one. I wouldn't even look at the STRIX-H , if you look at the Z270 STRIX-H variant it's a <$130 board being sold for a price premium.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Techhog*
> 
> Does that mean that the Itachi might need to be downgraded as well, since it likely wouldn't have better VRM than a higher-end Asrock board?


I'll probably split them up into the Fatal1ty + Taichi _with Fairchild_ left as is & Sinopower variants on par with a top end STRIX. Nothing is definitive ; 8pack suggests Taichi is on par with the GB Gaming 7 / Asus ROG Hero and better than the ROG hero for memory overclocks. There's a reason why it is a _preliminary_ rundown.


----------



## Techhog

Does that mean that the Itachi might need to be downgraded as well, since it likely wouldn't have better VRM than a higher-end Asrock board?
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AlphaC*
> 
> I'll probably split them up into the Fatal1ty + Taichi _with Fairchild_ left as is & Sinopower variants on par with a top end STRIX. Nothing is definitive ; 8pack suggests Taichi is on par with the GB Gaming 7 / Asus ROG Hero and better than the ROG hero for memory overclocks. There's a reason why it is a _preliminary_ rundown.


Ah, makes sense. I just wanted no know since I'm thinking about replacing my Strix if it's not fixed this week and the Itachi is one of the boards I'm considering.


----------



## drumsticks

Interestingly enough, I found the EVGA motherboards on the Japanese version of their website:


Z370 FTW: https://jp.evga.com/Products/Product.aspx?pn=134-KS-E377-KR
Z370 Micro: https://jp.evga.com/products/product.aspx?pn=121-KS-E375-KR
Z370 Classified K: https://jp.evga.com/products/product.aspx?pn=134-KS-E379-KR
I can't reproduce it on the American/English website.

You can get the specs sheets from there too: https://www.evga.com/products/pdf/121-KS-E375-KR.pdf but I'm not sure if it gives any valuable information? Perhaps somebody smarter than me can find something else of interest on those pages?


----------



## AlphaC

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *drumsticks*
> 
> Interestingly enough, I found the EVGA motherboards on the Japanese version of their website:
> 
> 
> Z370 FTW: https://jp.evga.com/Products/Product.aspx?pn=134-KS-E377-KR
> Z370 Micro: https://jp.evga.com/products/product.aspx?pn=121-KS-E375-KR
> Z370 Classified K: https://jp.evga.com/products/product.aspx?pn=134-KS-E379-KR
> I can't reproduce it on the American/English website.
> 
> You can get the specs sheets from there too: https://www.evga.com/products/pdf/121-KS-E375-KR.pdf but I'm not sure if it gives any valuable information? Perhaps somebody smarter than me can find something else of interest on those pages?


https://www.evga.com/articles/01151/evga-z370-series-motherboards/

It's on US website but we can't trust manufacturers sites for power delivery info.

If they're reusing Z270 layouts then it's IR3553 Powerstages (good) but if the price is $170+ then I'd rather get the Asrock z370 Taichi / Fatal1ty K6 or GigaByte z370 Gaming 7. The Maximus X Hero is a decent choice but given how broken BIOS releases are right now (blame Intel not motherboard vendors) I'd opt for a board with Dual BIOS.

It's probably 6+4 layout ,mosfets notwithstanding.


----------



## drumsticks

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AlphaC*
> 
> https://www.evga.com/articles/01151/evga-z370-series-motherboards/
> 
> It's on US website but we can't trust manufacturers sites for power delivery info.
> 
> If they're reusing Z270 layouts then it's IR3553 Powerstages (good) but if the price is $170+ then I'd rather get the Asrock z370 Taichi / Fatal1ty K6 or GigaByte z370 Gaming 7. The Maximus X Hero is a decent choice but given how broken BIOS releases are right now (blame Intel not motherboard vendors) I'd opt for a board with Dual BIOS.
> 
> It's probably 6+4 layout ,mosfets notwithstanding.


There are a couple extra images of the PCB and possibly slightly more detail in the specs PDF. I didn't think they'd said anything outright on it on power delivery, and I figured it wouldn't reveal anything additional, but I thought it might be handy.

Re: whether it's 6+4 etc. - I have generally followed PCs and overclocked long enough to have a decent handle on it (looking to delid and do a custom loop this time), but I never really bothered to learn exactly how to count or evaluate VRMs and power delivery. How do you determine whether it's 6+4 or 8+2 or 4+4 or something/what are those numbers broken up into? I know that EVGA states they have an 11 phase VRM with 8 VCORE phases; is there any way to turn that into an 8+X *number*, VRM quality aside? (I know not every 8+whatever is the same at least).

I understand (or think I do) the characteristics that define good/bad VRMs based on what I've read from the thread (fortunately I remember enough from school), but I have no idea how to actually calculate them based on what the motherboard looks like etc


----------



## murenitu

the asus hero X is such? Is it good for memory?


----------



## Tasm

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *tiango*
> 
> Hey guys.
> For the regular joe that looks for a good bang for the buck and some reasonably oc, do you think there's much of a difference between a mid range msi mobo and an Asus one?
> I like that the msi in general come with more usb ports and fan headers.
> 
> Particularly I think that the MSI Z370M GAMING PRO AC offers a very good bang for the buck (Wi-Fi and blue tooth, realtek 1220, sli), but I don't know if the oc capabilities would be much worse than the likes of the asus prime z370a or the strix z370h.
> 
> I'd be using it with a noctua nh u14s or a thermalright le grand macho rt.
> Thanks!


MSI? Sure. Crappy mobos across the board to be honest.


----------



## AlphaC

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *murenitu*
> 
> the asus hero X is such? Is it good for memory?


good not = best.









https://www.techbang.com/posts/54350-competing-in-the-mainstream-market-gaming-small-plate-asus-rog-strix-z370-i-gaming-test
ON Semiconductor NTMFD4C86N MOSFET


Another confirmation


----------



## kevindd992002

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AlphaC*
> 
> good not = best.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.techbang.com/posts/54350-competing-in-the-mainstream-market-gaming-small-plate-asus-rog-strix-z370-i-gaming-test
> ON Semiconductor NTMFD4C86N MOSFET
> 
> 
> Another confirmation


What does "good not = best" mean?


----------



## AlphaC

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kevindd992002*
> 
> What does "good not = best" mean?


"Yeah Asus you need apex currently to match Taichi. Apex 4500 no problem. " (re: memory)
https://forums.overclockers.co.uk/threads/8packs-no-bs-testing-intel-8700k-and-z370-with-delid-5ghz-and-above-available-from-ocuk.18795256/page-14#post-31241412


----------



## kevindd992002

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AlphaC*
> 
> "Yeah Asus you need apex currently to match Taichi. Apex 4500 no problem. " (re: memory)
> https://forums.overclockers.co.uk/threads/8packs-no-bs-testing-intel-8700k-and-z370-with-delid-5ghz-and-above-available-from-ocuk.18795256/page-14#post-31241412


So the Taichi is the best Z370 board you can get right now?


----------



## Sin0822

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kevindd992002*
> 
> So the Taichi is the best Z370 board you can get right now?


You have DDR4 rated over 4000MHz? lol


----------



## asdkj1740

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *tiango*
> 
> Hey guys.
> For the regular joe that looks for a good bang for the buck and some reasonably oc, do you think there's much of a difference between a mid range msi mobo and an Asus one?
> I like that the msi in general come with more usb ports and fan headers.
> 
> Particularly I think that the MSI Z370M GAMING PRO AC offers a very good bang for the buck (Wi-Fi and blue tooth, realtek 1220, sli), but I don't know if the oc capabilities would be much worse than the likes of the asus prime z370a or the strix z370h.
> 
> I'd be using it with a noctua nh u14s or a thermalright le grand macho rt.
> Thanks!


i cant get my 2 hof 8g*2 3600c17 to oc to 4000 or above, sadly, if you care about this, pick another one.
3866 is the highest clock i can get on msi z370m gaming pro ac.


----------



## kevindd992002

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Sin0822*
> 
> You have DDR4 rated over 4000MHz? lol


No, lol. What I bought is a 3200 C14 GSkill RAM.


----------



## bloot

Taichi LLC beta bios fix https://www.asrock.com/MB/Intel/Z370%20Taichi/index.asp#BIOS


----------



## XPrecep

Is there any reliable data anywhere that might suggest the ballpark power draw of an 8700k at 5.0, AVX loads?


----------



## Tasm

Is Extreme 4 using similar VRMs as K6? Can anyone confirm this?


----------



## bloot

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Tasm*
> 
> Is Extreme 4 using similar VRMs as K6? Can anyone confirm this?


Extreme 4 fets are SM7341EH


----------



## Neville0

Hey I have the Asrock Fatal1ty Z370 Gaming-ITX/ac and it appears to be using the Fairchild FDPC5030SG.

If there is any pictures without me taking off the heatsinks let me know.


----------



## czin125

http://www.coolaler.com.tw/coolalercbb/ASUS_Z370_APEX/17.png
http://www.coolaler.com.tw/coolalercbb/ASUS_Z370_APEX/5.png
Is that right? 4600 at 1.40v or did he increase the volts as he went up?


----------



## br0da

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AlphaC*
> 
> br0da, I think Fairchild and SM7341 is a situation of alternate suppliers.


To be honest I'm not that sure about it since I haven't seen two sources reporting different FETs on the same board.


----------



## asdkj1740

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *br0da*
> 
> To be honest I'm not that sure about it since I haven't seen two sources reporting different FETs on the same board.


i have seen three, should really have 2 version of mosfet used.

i am curious to know that 7 liitle ic behind the pcb on fatal1ty k6 are exactly the same as those behind onextreme 4?
those ic should be just driver ic but not doublers....


----------



## AlphaC

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *br0da*
> 
> To be honest I'm not that sure about it since I haven't seen two sources reporting different FETs on the same board.


I should have wrote that clearer:
If the memory VRM is Fairchild, it is probably Fairchild underneath VRM Heatsink for V_core / SOC
If memory VRM is SM7341 it is likely SM7341 underneath VRM Heatsink for V_Core / SOC
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Tasm*
> 
> Is Extreme 4 using similar VRMs as K6? Can anyone confirm this?


I've seen at least one review with the Fairchild parts


----------



## Sin0822

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kevindd992002*
> 
> No, lol. What I bought is a 3200 C14 GSkill RAM.


I think pretty much every Z370 board should be able to pull that off


----------



## br0da

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *asdkj1740*
> 
> i have seen three, should really have 2 version of mosfet used.


Have you seen them on your own or are there any links to pictures / reviews you can share?
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *asdkj1740*
> 
> i am curious to know that 7 liitle ic behind the pcb on fatal1ty k6 are exactly the same as those behind onextreme 4?


I'd be pretty sure they are.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AlphaC*
> 
> I should have wrote that clearer:
> If the memory VRM is Fairchild, it is probably Fairchild underneath VRM Heatsink for V_core / SOC
> If memory VRM is SM7341 it is likely SM7341 underneath VRM Heatsink for V_Core / SOC


I got that but still on every picture I see Taichi is equipped with 5030SG and Gaming i7 with SM7341EH.


----------



## kevindd992002

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Sin0822*
> 
> I think pretty much every Z370 board should be able to pull that off


Oh of course, no doubt. I failed to mention that I'm aiming to overclock these RAM modules to their fullest too. Are there instances that these B-dies reach 4GHz and above?


----------



## gbates

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Neville0*
> 
> Hey I have the Asrock Fatal1ty Z370 Gaming-ITX/ac and it appears to be using the Fairchild FDPC5030SG.
> 
> If there are any pictures without me taking off the heatsinks let me know.


What FET do you have for memory? On Asrock web page it looks like SM7341?


----------



## Sin0822

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kevindd992002*
> 
> Oh of course, no doubt. I failed to mention that I'm aiming to overclock these RAM modules to their fullest too. Are there instances that these B-dies reach 4GHz and above?


I know a lot of people hit a sweet spot around 2800MHz and tight timings, but I am not sure if a 3200MHz kit could go up that high with tight timings. You might want to check individual threads for the boards you are looking at.


----------



## Telstar

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Sin0822*
> 
> I know a lot of people hit a sweet spot around 2800MHz and tight timings, but I am not sure if a 3200MHz kit could go up that high with tight timings. You might want to check individual threads for the boards you are looking at.


Did you mean 3800?


----------



## Neville0

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *gbates*
> 
> What FET do you have for memory? On Asrock web page it looks like SM7341?


Hey I took some pictures of the board this morning but I didn't get a good enough picture to read the numbers on the package. I'll get some better ones when I get home this evening.


----------



## gbates

I understand nothing...
Tek Sydicate has an overview of Taichi and they claim it uses Sinopower FETs (you can't see them in the video), but you can see memory FETs and they are from Fairchild...

https://youtu.be/u1Ya6wUAsTg?t=127

EDIT:
I'm guessing they've just made mistake. Before Taichi overview, they took a look at ASRock Fatal1ty Z370 Professional i7 and for this one, they took radiators off.
You can't really see FETs for CPU, but for memory it is Sinopower, so they probably thought it is the same on Taichi.

EDIT2:
Hardware.info had Taichi with Sinopower memory FETs, so as AlphaC wrote it very likely that main FETs are also from Sinopower. Link for image 3 posts down.


----------



## Neville0

The FET/VRM next to the memory on the Fat1lity ITX is definitly Fairchild, however most of this thread is focused on ATX boards so, yea.


----------



## kevindd992002

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Sin0822*
> 
> I know a lot of people hit a sweet spot around 2800MHz and tight timings, but I am not sure if a 3200MHz kit could go up that high with tight timings. You might want to check individual threads for the boards you are looking at.


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Telstar*
> 
> Did you mean 3800?


Right, did you mean 4000 and above like I asked? It will run at 3200 CL14 because it's rated at that speed and is something easy for even 7th Gen CPU's to run.


----------



## gbates

And here's Taichi Z370 with Sinpower memory FETs... (from hardware.info)
https://content.hwigroup.net/images/products_xl/413133/asrock-z370-taichi.jpg


----------



## Neville0

Asrock Fat1lity ITX memory fet picture

https://i.imgur.com/g7P3y23.jpg


----------



## AlphaC

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *br0da*
> 
> Have you seen them on your own or are there any links to pictures / reviews you can share?
> I'd be pretty sure they are.
> I got that but still on every picture I see Taichi is equipped with 5030SG and Gaming i7 with SM7341EH.


Seems weird , yes

I don't have an answer maybe Nickshih can help us

Hmm Silicon Lottery QVL lacks GB Gaming 7
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *https://siliconlottery.com/pages/intel-coffee-lake*
> Motherboard:
> ASRock Z370 Extreme 4
> ASRock Z370 Fatal1ty Gaming K6
> ASRock Z370 Fatal1ty Professional Gaming i7
> ASRock Z370 Taichi
> ASUS Z370 ROG Maximus X Apex
> ASUS Z370 ROG Maximus X Code
> ASUS Z370 ROG Maximus X Hero
> ASUS Z370 ROG Maximus X Formula


----------



## venomousdesigns

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AlphaC*
> 
> Hmm Silicon Lottery QVL lacks GB Gaming 7


I've been quietly lurking, reading more and more about VRM and trying to get my head around things. First I can't thank you and the others in this thread for keeping us both updated and 'translating' into layman terms for us novices haha!

I'm currently in the position of choosing the most suitable Motherboard for non-extend OC'ing. Like a few others I intend to start out without delid'ing (building my confidence!) using a D15 and 3200 CL14 in the hopes of the 5GHz mark - I had my mind set on the Asus Z370 Hero has Motherboards are slightly limited where I am (most on preorder as they fly over from the US) but withe latest scare with 'droops' its made me reconsider.

As new information is flowing in daily I know your/others suggestions may change but so currently (taking into consideration what I can source locally) between the following, what would you suggest:

Asrock Fatal1ty K6
Asus ROG Hero
Gigabyte AROUS Gaming 5
Gigabyte AROUS Gaming 7
Asus Strict/TUF
MSI (not worth listing models it seems)

Unfortunately the Taichi or I7 Professional are currently not availiable and don't want to sit here for too much longer staring at a CPU haha. Not interested in WiFi/BT, just want solid starting block for OC'ing and enough run a single 1080ti, 8700k and a M.2 SDD + single HDD.

From what's coming out last day or so, the Asrock K6 is looking great for its price correct? I'm unsure how bad the Fairchild is (look at me sounding like I know what's going on







) but if you say its worth springing for the Gaming 5/7 or Hero I'll do so as I already budgeted for the later.

Cheers!


----------



## Clausewitz

Can I get a list of the boards impacted by the LLC issue?

This is what I have so far:

Asrock Taichi (Fixed 10/16/17 BIOS update)
ASUS Z370-E (BIOS fix being prepared)
ASUS Z370-F (BIOS fix being prepared)
ASUS Maximus X Hero (Rumored to have issue?)


----------



## aznguyen316

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Clausewitz*
> 
> Can I get a list of the boards impacted by the LLC issue?
> 
> This is what I have so far:
> 
> Asrock Taichi (Fixed 10/16/17 BIOS update)
> ASUS Z370-E (BIOS fix being prepared)
> ASUS Z370-F (BIOS fix being prepared)
> ASUS Maximus X Hero (Rumored to have issue?)


ASUS Z370 Prime-A also has BIOS fix being prepared


----------



## br0da

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *gbates*
> 
> And here's Taichi Z370 with Sinpower memory FETs... (from hardware.info)
> https://content.hwigroup.net/images/products_xl/413133/asrock-z370-taichi.jpg


That's what I was looking for, thx!
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AlphaC*
> 
> I don't have an answer maybe Nickshih can help us


I just PMed him.


----------



## asdkj1740

it is hard for my galax hof 3600 c17 8g*2 to overclock over 3866c17 on msi gaming pro z370m and gigabyte ultra gaming z370, no matter at what votlages and looser primary four timings, like vccio 1.28v/vccsa 1.28v/ddr4 voltage 1.55v and 3900 c19 or even c22.

any mid~low end mobo that can oc ddr4 beyond 4000?


----------



## drumsticks

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *asdkj1740*
> 
> it is hard for my galax hof 3600 c17 8g*2 to overclock over 3866c17 on msi gaming pro z370m and gigabyte ultra gaming z370, no matter at what votlages and looser primary four timings, like vccio 1.28v/vccsa 1.28v/ddr4 voltage 1.55v and 3900 c19 or even c22.
> 
> any mid~low end mobo that can oc ddr4 beyond 4000?


I'm waiting on the EVGA Z370 Micro. It seems like it should be better for overclocking in general than either MSI or Asus' mATX boards, and I've heard 2 DIMM slots can overclock better than 4 (and I don't need more than 16-32GB). Hopefully they won't take longer than a couple months to get it out, though.


----------



## Telstar

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Clausewitz*
> 
> ASUS Maximus X Hero (Rumored to have issue?)


No issue on the Hero.


----------



## AlphaC

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Clausewitz*
> 
> Can I get a list of the boards impacted by the LLC issue?
> 
> This is what I have so far:
> 
> Asrock Taichi (Fixed 10/16/17 BIOS update)
> ASUS Z370-E (BIOS fix being prepared)
> ASUS Z370-F (BIOS fix being prepared)
> ASUS Maximus X Hero (Rumored to have issue?)


K6 is fixed https://www.asrock.com/mb/Intel/Fatal1ty%20Z370%20Gaming%20K6/#BIOS
Extreme4 is fixed https://www.asrock.com/MB/Intel/Z370%20Extreme4/index.asp#BIOS
Taichi listed as BETA https://www.asrock.com/MB/Intel/Z370%20Taichi/index.asp#BIOS
Fatal1ty i7 listed as BETA https://www.asrock.com/MB/Intel/Fatal1ty%20Z370%20Professional%20Gaming%20i7/index.asp#BIOS

Nickshih PMed me
Quote:


> i will have new beta bios for all mobo tomorrow.
> 
> Will be updated to website asap


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *asdkj1740*
> 
> gigabyte ultra gaming is terrible.


You expected otherwise?









100°C on VRM heatsink (not even VRM) as per the thermal imaging I found on Chinese website so yeh... it was never even on the radar


----------



## asdkj1740

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AlphaC*
> 
> K6 is fixed https://www.asrock.com/mb/Intel/Fatal1ty%20Z370%20Gaming%20K6/#BIOS
> Extreme4 is fixed https://www.asrock.com/MB/Intel/Z370%20Extreme4/index.asp#BIOS


gigabyte ultra gaming is terrible.


----------



## gbates

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *drumsticks*
> 
> I'm waiting on the EVGA Z370 Micro. It seems like it should be better for overclocking in general than either MSI or Asus' mATX boards, and I've heard 2 DIMM slots can overclock better than 4 (and I don't need more than 16-32GB). Hopefully they won't take longer than a couple months to get it out, though.


You're probably right about overclocking, but this is strange board: no USB 3.1, no Type-C, no video output at all.


----------



## drumsticks

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *gbates*
> 
> You're probably right about overclocking, but this is strange board: no USB 3.1, no Type-C, no video output at all.


You're right about the video out, that's weird and I never considered it. Still, I give it the nod between the MSI and Asus boards because:


I already have a number of Type A to C cables for my phone. I don't use Type C for anything else. MSI is the only one with Type C inputs, but according to this thread the VRMs and overclocking experience are garbage.
Asus is decent, but the Z370-G is kind of expensive at $185. USB 3.1 Gen 2, but after thinking about it, I barely ever utilize USB 3.0 ports in a way that would make me impatient; I doubt I need double the bandwith.
I don't need integrated video out, although i concur it's weird to not have any. I do have a backup video card though if something catastrophic happens.
I'd like to OC as far as I can, preferably without having to switch cases. If EVGA is measurably better for OC than the Strix, then it's superior to me; looks and connectivity come second.
I need 2 m.2 ports, but EVGA offers a PCIex4 adapter so I think I can use that.
If I was willing to switch to an ATX case, I probably would go for something else; it seems like Gigabyte has the best boards right now. But I'll wait to see if people here rate EVGA above the midrange boards - I'm not looking for extreme cooling, but I'd like something decent to go with a custom loop. Sounds like the Strix-G falls slightly below that mark, so I'm waiting for now.


----------



## gbates

@Neville0,
Have you tried any overclocking on your board (Asrock Fatal1ty Z370 Gaming-ITX/ac)? What CPU do you have?


----------



## aznguyen316

https://rog.asus.com/forum/showthread.php?96800-Strix-Z370-UEFI-updates-UEFI-0419-0426

UEFI updates but *** Z370-A Prime not there, I assume because it's not ROG.

*edit* Prime Z370-A UEFI: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B4GdKuf8p2cKUlpZSDVLOENjSFE/view


----------



## Techhog

So I can't go above 150W with the Strix E, right?


----------



## Sin0822

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Telstar*
> 
> Did you mean 3800?


Yea! sorry!

BTW Taichi is definitely fairchild, is there a pic of it with sinopower for the CPu VRM? It's also 10+2 for the CPU core and iGPU, not 8 + 4.

Here is the VRM :


----------



## Clausewitz

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Sin0822*
> 
> Yea! sorry!
> 
> BTW Taichi is definitely fairchild, is there a pic of it with sinopower for the CPu VRM? It's also 10+2 for the CPU core and iGPU, not 8 + 4.
> 
> Here is the VRM :


Does the Taichi have a power and reset button on the board? I see it has a Q-code poster.


----------



## Scotty99

So boys ive narrowed it down to 3 boards, maybe 4.

First off i like the looks of the maximus hero the best, but for nearly 100 dollar premium over other boards im looking at not sure i can justify.

Other boards being:

MSI gaming pro carbon
Asus strix-f
Gigabyte gaming 5

Addressable rgb header is kind of a requirement and these all seem to have that, my question would be what is the most quality board of those 3.


----------



## awesomegamer919

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Techhog*
> 
> So I can't go above 150W with the Strix E, right?


You certainly could, make sure the VRM heatsink has some airflow though.


----------



## AlphaC

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Techhog*
> 
> So I can't go above 150W with the Strix E, right?


Depending on mosfet cooling I'd say it's more like 220W... figure <20A per phase (see the limit of SiRA14dp at 25°C ambient) with ~ 1.3-1.4V, ~88% efficiency.

To expand on http://www.overclock.net/t/1638955/z370-z390-vrm-discussion-thread/70#post_26383261

At 150A , 300kHz f_sw, 1.4V I would expect the lowside Sira12dp to reach about 90°C and that is without accounting for the ~ +20% RDs(on) adjustment for temperatures around 75°C. Wouldn't recommend no airflow.

If we use 100°C as the target max VRM temp and assuming 1 sq in of 2oz copper PCB that is. In reality it is less than 1 sq in.

No airflow? You're looking max 100A and 1.3V (about 130W) using the steady state thermal resistance of 70°C/W before things hit 100°C.


Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!







Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Clausewitz*
> 
> Does the Taichi have a power and reset button on the board? I see it has a Q-code poster.


There's no power/reset but the Fatal1ty K6 has that.


----------



## br0da

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Sin0822*
> 
> BTW Taichi is definitely fairchild, is there a pic of it with sinopower for the CPu VRM? It's also 10+2 for the CPU core and iGPU, not 8 + 4.


Thank you!
But what are those 12 drivers on the backside for? 2x VCCIO + VCCSA, 2x VCCGT and 8x ... ?


----------



## Scotty99

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AlphaC*
> 
> It's very good. Better than the TI NexFET Powerblocks actually.
> 
> The ISL99227B has more thermal dissipation due to the exposure of the junction to the heatsink , plus they won electronic innovation awards in 2016. They're actually a bit better than International Rectifier IR3555. They have up to 2MHz switching frequency vs 1.5MHz on NexFETs and 1MHz on IR powerstages.
> 
> Generally speaking : Powerstage (integrated driver+high side+low side) such as ISL99227B / IR3555 > Powerblock (high+low side) such as the TI NexFET 87350 , Fairchild dual-N Powertrench, or the Sinopower > separate Powerpak / 2 Low RDS(on) mosfets for high side such as Onsemi 4C09N + 4C06N or Vishay Sira19+Sira12
> 
> Texas Instruments diagram
> 
> 
> http://www.ti.com/lsds/ti/power-management/power-mosfet-module-overview.page
> 
> Right now it's looking like for VRM (subject to change if some boards are using 2 low side mosfets aka "doubled low side"):
> *TOP* = Gigabyte Z370 SOC Force (unreleased, found on hwbot records) , Gigabyte Z370 Gaming 7 due to iSL99227B (60A rating) ... top audio,top overkill VRM , ... likely Asus Z370 Maximus X Extreme too
> *Upper tier (LN2, custom water)* = Asrock Z370 Fatal1ty Gaming Pro i7 (_whatever the full name is_, the expensive one) , Asrock Z370 Taichi , using Fairchild Dual-N (low+high side) when heatsinked properly with heatpipe (limited to about 35A per mosfet) , Asus ROG APEX (a record holder on LN2) /Formula/Hero boards using TI NexFETs (per marketing page) , MSI Z370 Godlike (until more info it goes here, but it's poor price/perf regardless)
> 
> *Midrange <$200* (All-in-one watercooling/dual tower air cooling)= Asrock Z370 Extreme4 / K6 using Sinopower 2-in-1 / "DSM"/ low+high side
> *Low Midrange , should be $160ish or less* (Asus z270-A level VRM)= Asus Z370E/F /G , Asus Z370-A , Gigabyte Z370 Gaming 5 (here or higher), MSI Z370 Pro carbon , MSI z370 M5
> 
> *Entry* (sub 150W probably / 120mm fan cooler level, should be $120 or less if VRM is the only concern) = Asrock Z370 Killer SLI (cut down features is another issue on top of regular Sinopowers) , MSI z370 SLI PLUS (uPi controller + Ubiq mosfets), MSI Z370 Tomahawk (uPi controller + Ubiq mosfets ; ALC892) , MSI Z370 Krait (uPi controller + Ubiq mosfets)
> Not suitable for really overclocking unless it's not an i7 (at best MCE/ multi-core turbo only) = Asus TUF Pro Gaming / z370 STRIX H, Gigabyte Z370 Ultra Gaming , Gigabyte Z370 Gaming 3 & K3, Gigabyte Z370 XP SLI, MSI Z370 Gaming Plus, etc
> <4 phases , or partially Unheatsinked (don't buy) :Asus Z370-P / TUF Z370 Plus, MSI Z370-A Pro , MSI z370 PC Pro, Asrock Z370 Pro4 , Gigabyte Z370 HD3, Gigabyte Z370M D3H , etc
> 
> Oct 18,2017 Made more legible:


Wait a second, extreme 4 VRM are better than gigabyte gaming 5?


----------



## venomousdesigns

Currently in the same boat with deciding and @AlphaC/@br0da have been a fantastic help (sorry guys I reached my PM limit so couldn't reply haha!).

Due to my country being backward (in both distribution delays and pricing) I've been advised that the Gaming 7/RoG Hero isn't worth the 100+ premium and that the Asrock K6 will be the sweetspot for both price and my non-professional OC needs.

Be aware though, as others have pointed out, there seems to be different variants of Asrock boards (supply issues?) with regards to Fairchild vs Sinopower (Fairchild being superior).

I'll cross my fingers for Fairchild but AlphaC mentioned that Sinopower is only 2% less efficent and I think for the $100+ saving its still the best board *for me*.

Thxs!


----------



## Scotty99

Im weird and like RGB, asrock not including an addressable header is a real factor for me lol. Its hard to believe gaming 5 has lower quality power delivery than extreme 4, it retails for 40 dollars more.


----------



## catacavaco

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Techhog*
> 
> So I can't go above 150W with the Strix E, right?


How can one extrapolate the maximum wattage provided by board 'x' at a certain vrm temperature from the initial table ? or am i missing something ?


----------



## winter2

Any new info about VRMs used in gigabyte gaming 5 ?


----------



## Techhog

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *awesomegamer919*
> 
> You certainly could, make sure the VRM heatsink has some airflow though.


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AlphaC*
> 
> Depending on mosfet cooling I'd say it's more like 220W... figure <20A per phase (see the limit of SiRA14dp at 25°C ambient) with ~ 1.3-1.4V, ~88% efficiency.
> 
> To expand on http://www.overclock.net/t/1638955/z370-z390-vrm-discussion-thread/70#post_26383261
> 
> At 150A , 300kHz f_sw, 1.4V I would expect the lowside Sira12dp to reach about 90°C and that is without accounting for the ~ +20% RDs(on) adjustment for temperatures around 75°C. Wouldn't recommend no airflow.
> 
> If we use 100°C as the target max VRM temp and assuming 1 sq in of 2oz copper PCB that is. In reality it is less than 1 sq in.
> 
> No airflow? You're looking max 100A and 1.3V (about 130W) using the steady state thermal resistance of 70°C/W before things hit 100°C.


Thanks guys. My VRM temp was hitting 80C at 150W (if I was reading the correct temp), so I guess I'm safe now since I'll never even be hitting that much again unless I delid. Though, that also means that I'll still have headroom if I delid! Hm, decisions...
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *catacavaco*
> 
> How can one extrapolate the maximum wattage provided by board 'x' at a certain vrm temperature from the initial table ? or am i missing something ?


You can't unless you understand it. I was just asking since I thought I saw someone here say that. Turns out it's a much higher ceiling; higher than anyone wish standard cooling would ever need in fact.


----------



## GBT-MatthewH

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *winter2*
> 
> Any new info about VRMs used in gigabyte gaming 5 ?


Latest info I have without having a board in hand: 4+4, Intersil ISL95866, ISL6625Ax2, 1H1L


----------



## Scotty99

Can anyone confirm gigabyte is having high VRM temps? Or was that 124c a one off result?

Also how much do heat pipes lower temps, id like to see a comparison between extreme 4 and k6 (they look like same heatsinks, k6 having a heatpipe).

Im sooooo annoyed asrock boards are not sold by amazon yet, i have 20% off coupon that ends on the 23rd lol.

Edit: Also does anyone else find the m.2 heatsink on the strix boards ugly? Looks out of place somehow.


----------



## AlphaC

@ Techhog:

The weird part is that the Asus Z370-A prime looks to have a better heatsink in terms of fin area than the STRIX ones.

Gigabyte had been using SiRA12dp for a while now on Intel mainstream boards , with OnSemi 4C10N + 4C06N recently. That is why I am skeptical that STRIX boards are worthwhile for VRM alone. The package design and datasheet specs are not a massive improvement over the Z370-A.

At least one review has 200W delta power consumption for the i7-8700k CPU when pushing the limits. But as mentioned earlier , so long as Asus is not using 4 phases with two MOSFETs per phase like the Gigabyte boards with four CPU phases I would think you'd be fine when applying airflow.

edit: also the Z370-A prime has a power on button , so it's better for a bench test setup before installing it in a case

@ Scotty:

that heatpipe only transfers heat between the two heatsinks. If you look at the heatsink it doesn't have the heatsink contacting the base. As such all it does is more or less double the effective fin area since you have two heatsinks (of similar size) instead of one.

The Fatal1ty k6 is worth the extra $10 USD on Newegg due to the Debug LED IMO. The power/reset are not as essential.

See also www.ti.com/lit/an/slva462/slva462.pdf
www.altera.com/en_US/pdfs/literature/an/an185.pdf
https://www.sparkfun.com/tutorials/314





If you look at the above, you reduce R_sA (the thermal resistance of heatsink to air since you get more fin area)

For people that missed the post in AM4 thread re: power dissipation
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *catacavaco*
> 
> How can one extrapolate the maximum wattage provided by board 'x' at a certain vrm temperature from the initial table ? or am i missing something ?


see
https://www.fairchildsemi.com/application-notes/AN/AN-6005.pdf
http://www.ti.com/lit/an/slyt664/slyt664.pdf
http://ww1.microchip.com/downloads/en/AppNotes/01471A.pdf
http://rohmfs.rohm.com/en/products/databook/applinote/ic/power/switching_regulator/power_loss_appli-e.pdf
http://www.electronicdesign.com/power/fundamentals-buck-converter-efficiency

I typically use worst case V_GS = 4.5V if possible. V_GS = 10V results in fewer losses.

Most mosfet datasheets are based off 1 sq.in 2 oz copper PCB

Thermal resistance junction to ambient = no heatsink
For a heatsinked mosfet , R_thetaJC Thermal resistance junction to case (not including heatsink) + R_CS Thermal resistance case to heatsink (usually the thermal tape) + R_SA Thermal resistance of heatsink to ambient

----
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *GBT-MatthewH*
> 
> Latest info I have without having a board in hand: 4+4, Intersil ISL95866, ISL6625Ax2, 1H1L


In plain English I think that means
4 CPU phases doubled to *8* + 2 uncore/SOC/whatever other phases doubled to *4*

PWM = ISL95866 https://www.intersil.com/en/products/power-management/computing-power-vrm-imvp/multiphase-controllers/ISL95866.html
Quote:


> Dual output controller
> Voltage regulator A: 4-, 3-, 2-, or 1-phase designs with two +12V integrated gate drivers
> Voltage regulator B: 3-, 2-, or 1-phase designs with one +12V integrated gate driver


TWO Dual output driver ISL6625A per PWM phase? https://www.intersil.com/en/products/power-management/mosfet-drivers/synchronous-drivers-for-multiphase-pwm/ISL6625A.html

presumably "1H1L" = 1 highside mosfet + lowside mosfet of unknown quality

The VRM looks identical to the Z270X Gaming 5 now that I look at it

Isn't it more likely to be 4 doubled to 8 and another 3 phases for the iGPU / etc?

On the bright side Steven put the Gigabyte z370 Gaming 7 fears to rest , he obtained 47°C VRM temps while using 1.3V and 4.9GHz (albeit with 120mm fan over VRM) in Handbrake... which is pretty much what we would expect
https://www.tweaktown.com/reviews/8377/gigabyte-z370-aorus-gaming-7-motherboard-review/index10.html


----------



## Techhog

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AlphaC*
> 
> @ Techhog:
> 
> The weird part is that the Asus Z370-A prime looks to have a better heatsink in terms of fin area than the STRIX ones.
> 
> Gigabyte had been using SiRA12dp for a while now on Intel mainstream boards , with OnSemi 4C10N + 4C06N recently. That is why I am skeptical that STRIX boards are worthwhile for VRM alone. The package design and datasheet specs are not a massive improvement over the Z370-A.
> 
> At least one review has 200W delta power consumption for the i7-8700k CPU when pushing the limits. But as mentioned earlier , so long as Asus is not using 4 phases with two MOSFETs per phase like the Gigabyte boards with four CPU phases I would think you'd be fine when applying airflow.


Have you seen a side view of the heatsink? It might balance out. Either way I'm strongly considering buying the Maximus X Code when that releases and selling this board to my friend just so he can feel secure that he doesn't end up with a board that's not well supported by its manufacturer, but he's not gonna want to spend $200+ on just a board.


----------



## punked256

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AlphaC*
> 
> It's very good. Better than the TI NexFET Powerblocks actually.
> 
> The ISL99227B has more thermal dissipation due to the exposure of the junction to the heatsink , plus they won electronic innovation awards in 2016. They're actually a bit better than International Rectifier IR3555. They have up to 2MHz switching frequency vs 1.5MHz on NexFETs and 1MHz on IR powerstages.
> 
> Generally speaking : Powerstage (integrated driver+high side+low side) such as ISL99227B / IR3555 > Powerblock (high+low side) such as the TI NexFET 87350 , Fairchild dual-N Powertrench, or the Sinopower > separate Powerpak / 2 Low RDS(on) mosfets for high side such as Onsemi 4C09N + 4C06N or Vishay Sira19+Sira12
> 
> Texas Instruments diagram
> 
> 
> http://www.ti.com/lsds/ti/power-management/power-mosfet-module-overview.page
> 
> Right now it's looking like for VRM (subject to change if some boards are using 2 low side mosfets aka "doubled low side"):
> *TOP* = Gigabyte Z370 SOC Force (unreleased, found on hwbot records) , Gigabyte Z370 Gaming 7 due to iSL99227B (60A rating) ... top audio,top overkill VRM , ... likely Asus Z370 Maximus X Extreme too
> *Upper tier (LN2, custom water)* = Asrock Z370 Fatal1ty Gaming Pro i7 (_whatever the full name is_, the expensive one) , Asrock Z370 Taichi , using Fairchild Dual-N (low+high side) when heatsinked properly with heatpipe (limited to about 35A per mosfet) , Asus ROG APEX (a record holder on LN2) /Formula/Hero boards using TI NexFETs (per marketing page) , MSI Z370 Godlike (until more info it goes here, but it's poor price/perf regardless)
> 
> *Midrange <$200* (All-in-one watercooling/dual tower air cooling)= Asrock Z370 Extreme4 / K6 using Sinopower 2-in-1 / "DSM"/ low+high side
> *Low Midrange , should be $160ish or less* (Asus z270-A level VRM)= Asus Z370E/F /G , Asus Z370-A , Gigabyte Z370 Gaming 5 (here or higher), MSI Z370 Pro carbon , MSI z370 M5
> 
> *Entry* (sub 150W probably / 120mm fan cooler level, should be $120 or less if VRM is the only concern) = Asrock Z370 Killer SLI (cut down features is another issue on top of regular Sinopowers) , MSI z370 SLI PLUS (uPi controller + Ubiq mosfets), MSI Z370 Tomahawk (uPi controller + Ubiq mosfets ; ALC892) , MSI Z370 Krait (uPi controller + Ubiq mosfets)
> Not suitable for really overclocking unless it's not an i7 (at best MCE/ multi-core turbo only) = Asus TUF Pro Gaming / z370 STRIX H, Gigabyte Z370 Ultra Gaming , Gigabyte Z370 Gaming 3 & K3, Gigabyte Z370 XP SLI, MSI Z370 Gaming Plus, etc
> <4 phases , or partially Unheatsinked (don't buy) :Asus Z370-P / TUF Z370 Plus, MSI Z370-A Pro , MSI z370 PC Pro, Asrock Z370 Pro4 , Gigabyte Z370 HD3, Gigabyte Z370M D3H , etc
> 
> Oct 18,2017 Made more legible:


Is this top still valid? best motherboards to buy (regardless of the price) should still be Gigabyte Z370 Gaming 7 & Asus Z370 Maximus X Extreme ?


----------



## winter2

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Scotty99*
> 
> Can anyone confirm gigabyte is having high VRM temps? Or was that 124c a one off result?
> 
> Also how much do heat pipes lower temps, id like to see a comparison between extreme 4 and k6 (they look like same heatsinks, k6 having a heatpipe).
> 
> Im sooooo annoyed asrock boards are not sold by amazon yet, i have 20% off coupon that ends on the 23rd lol.
> 
> Edit: Also does anyone else find the m.2 heatsink on the strix boards ugly? Looks out of place somehow.


Gigabyte gaming 5 - 8700k 4.9Ghz - 1.3V - Stress test = temperature around 60s reported by motherboard VRM sensor


----------



## ogider

AlphaC
"At least one review has 200W delta power consumption for the i7-8700k CPU when pushing the limits"

Yup. I run some Linx 0.7.1 on 8700k 4.8 AVX Offset 0
Was over 220W CPU power. Even close to 250W when clock was 5.0


----------



## asdkj1740

i would say, for my current experience on four low end mobo now, bios matters, not the vrm.
gigabyte hd3/hd3p/ultra gaming have the same vrm components, but different bios version has differnet llc resulting in huge overclocking differential among these three boards.

ultra gaming is having f5 bios, which has way better llc operation than hd3/hd3p which has only f4 bios, i dont know whether f5 must be better than f4, but clearly something is wrong on hd3/hd3p.

i can run 5g core, 4.5g uncore, 3866c17 ddr4 , avx offset=0 on prime95 without any problem on ultra gaming, but not a chance on hd3 and hd3p.
ultra gaming still has terrible vdroop however.

msi gaming pro z370m, is a joke, dont buy it until new bios release(this board is still having the first release bios....no update whatsoever)


----------



## punked256

These are the prices where I live:
What's a best OC & good performance motherboard (looks & LEDs not so important), considering money wouldn't be a problem and I don't want to pay for "Godlike"

247 USD - MSI Z370 GAMING M5
249 USD - ASUS ROG STRIX Z370-F GAMING
256 USD - MSI Z370 GAMING PRO CARBON AC
266 USD - ASROCK Z370 Taichi
271 USD - ASUS ROG STRIX Z370-E GAMING
271 USD - GIGABYTE AORUS Z370-Gaming 5
307 USD - GIGABYTE AORUS Z370-Gaming 7
312 USD - ASROCK Fatal1ty Z370 Professional Gaming i7
344 USD - ASUS ROG MAXIMUS X HERO
398 USD - ASUS ROG MAXIMUS X APEX

*** 629 USD - MSI Z370 GODLIKE GAMING


----------



## Scotty99

They are all going to overclock similarly, of that list id go with taichi or strix-f.


----------



## XPrecep

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *punked256*
> 
> These are the prices where I live:
> What's a best OC & good performance motherboard (looks & LEDs not so important), considering money wouldn't be a problem and I don't want to pay for "Godlike"
> 
> 247 USD - MSI Z370 GAMING M5
> 249 USD - ASUS ROG STRIX Z370-F GAMING
> 256 USD - MSI Z370 GAMING PRO CARBON AC
> 266 USD - ASROCK Z370 Taichi
> 271 USD - ASUS ROG STRIX Z370-E GAMING
> 271 USD - GIGABYTE AORUS Z370-Gaming 5
> 307 USD - GIGABYTE AORUS Z370-Gaming 7
> 312 USD - ASROCK Fatal1ty Z370 Professional Gaming i7
> 344 USD - ASUS ROG MAXIMUS X HERO
> 398 USD - ASUS ROG MAXIMUS X APEX
> 
> *** 629 USD - MSI Z370 GODLIKE GAMING


APEX should have considerably more overclocking headroom when compared to all the other boards you listed there - especially in terms of memory, owing to it being a 2 DIMM board. Performance should beat even the GODLIKE as far as OCing goes.

Taichi looks like the next best board on that list.


----------



## punked256

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *XPrecep*
> 
> APEX should have considerably more overclocking headroom when compared to all the other boards you listed there - especially in terms of memory, owing to it being a 2 DIMM board. Performance should beat even the GODLIKE as far as OCing goes.
> 
> Taichi looks like the next best board on that list.


I see on the forum Gigabyte Z370 Gaming 7 is quite praised as well "due to iSL99227B (60A rating)" as per AlphaC
I'm trying to find a great board for gaming actually, so will do basic overclock for CPU (Kraken x62) & RAM (no Nitrogen stuff)


----------



## tiefox

I'm very divided on getting either the MSI Godlike ( available now here in Denmark ) or waiting for the APEX. My 8700k arrives on monday and I have no mobo yet. I do have GSKILL 16GB KIT 4266mhz that it seems that the Godlike can handle even 4x8gb at theses speeds. I do intend to Delid and overclock with a custom loop, so getting a really good VRM is important for me as well.


----------



## XPrecep

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *punked256*
> 
> I see on the forum Gigabyte Z370 Gaming 7 is quite praised as well "due to iSL99227B (60A rating)" as per AlphaC
> I'm trying to find a great board for gaming actually, so will do basic overclock for CPU (Kraken x62) & RAM (no Nitrogen stuff)


If you're not delidding and using a monoblock, or doing anything that constitutes 'extreme overclocking' (LN2) you'll be very well served by the Gaming 7, the Taichi, or the Hero.
Any of those boards will easily take you to the thermal limit on the CPU die if its not delidded, I believe.

So if your build is centered around non-delidded OCing performance with an AIO cooler like the Kraken, those boards are are all pretty much equal as far as the OC on your CPU goes.
You'd probably be fine with the STRIX, even - but I can't recommend them because I don't like the way the bios team for them at ASUS has been acting.

I'm new to memory overclocking, so someone more experienced might have to correct me here, but as far as I'm aware - your cooling setup would bottleneck your northbridge voltage headroom before you exhausted the memory OC capabilities of any of those boards too. So for you, again, all those boards are great choices for your setup.

Really, if you're not using a monoblock or LN2, and just OCing for games, you needn't worry too much about the VRM quality differences between those higher end boards. All will be suitable for your needs. What the APEX has over those boards is increased memory OC potential and potentially higher quality power delivery when you're running AVX loads at 5GHz+ 24/7, or engineering specifically based around LN2 -- if you're not delidding, you don't benefit from any of that, so don't worry about it.

*tldr:* All those boards are good, if you like the Gaming 7, go for it, it will give you the best you can get out of your setup.


----------



## XPrecep

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *tiefox*
> 
> I'm very divided on getting either the MSI Godlike ( available now here in Denmark ) or waiting for the APEX. My 8700k arrives on monday and I have no mobo yet. I do have GSKILL 16GB KIT 4266mhz that it seems that the Godlike can handle even 4x8gb at theses speeds. I do intend to Delid and overclock with a custom loop, so getting a really good VRM is important for me as well.


I think the release date of the Apex is still guesswork, but some retailers on geizhals were suggesting the board would be with them on the 23rd. I don't know how true that is. I don't think it should be much longer to wait for the Apex though, regardless - October is nearly over, after all









I couldn't wait, and I bought the Hero. Reeled in some of my expectation for what I'll achieve with Z370 because of it, at least as far as memory goes. Hoping the next series release will be less rushed, and I'll save my ambitions until then. Still hoping for 5GHz AVX this time around though.

If I were you, I'd wait until Monday - at that point we'll know if that release information is true or not.


----------



## tiefox

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *XPrecep*
> 
> I think the release date of the Apex is still guesswork, but some retailers on geizhals were suggesting the board would be with them on the 23rd. I don't know how true that is. I don't think it should be much longer to wait for the Apex though, regardless - October is nearly over, after all
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I couldn't wait, and I bought the Hero. Reeled in some of my expectation for what I'll achieve with Z370 because of it, at least as far as memory goes. Hoping the next series release will be less rushed, and I'll save my ambitions until then. Still hoping for 5GHz AVX this time around though.
> 
> If I were you, I'd wait until Monday - at that point we'll know if that release information is true or not.


Thanks. I will wait a bit more.


----------



## punked256

Does MSI Godlike supports 4266 RAM ?
Because I saw on their product page https://www.msi.com/Motherboard/Z370-GODLIKE-GAMING/Specification
says 4133+(OC) does it mean trough OC can go higher?


----------



## asdkj1740

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *punked256*
> 
> Does MSI Godlike supports 4266 RAM ?
> Because I saw on their product page https://www.msi.com/Motherboard/Z370-GODLIKE-GAMING/Specification
> says 4133+(OC) does it mean trough OC can go higher?


meaningless.
check the official compatibility test of rams and buy those ram, should be okay.


----------



## GBT-MatthewH

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AlphaC*
> 
> ----
> In plain English I think that means
> 4 CPU phases doubled to *8* + 2 uncore/SOC/whatever other phases doubled to *4*
> 
> PWM = ISL95866 https://www.intersil.com/en/products/power-management/computing-power-vrm-imvp/multiphase-controllers/ISL95866.html
> TWO Dual output driver ISL6625A per PWM phase? https://www.intersil.com/en/products/power-management/mosfet-drivers/synchronous-drivers-for-multiphase-pwm/ISL6625A.html
> 
> presumably "1H1L" = 1 highside mosfet + lowside mosfet of unknown quality
> 
> The VRM looks identical to the Z270X Gaming 5 now that I look at it
> 
> Isn't it more likely to be 4 doubled to 8 and another 3 phases for the iGPU / etc?
> 
> On the bright side Steven put the Gigabyte z370 Gaming 7 fears to rest , he obtained 47°C VRM temps while using 1.3V and 4.9GHz (albeit with 120mm fan over VRM) in Handbrake... which is pretty much what we would expect
> https://www.tweaktown.com/reviews/8377/gigabyte-z370-aorus-gaming-7-motherboard-review/index10.html


Yup... Full spec shows Vcore: 4+4, VccGT: 3, PWM = ISL95866, Vcore driver = 2x ISL6625a, VccGT MOS = 1 high 1 low, DDR MOS = 1 high 2 low.


----------



## Ky0sHiR0

As owner of delidded 8700K + Kraken X62 + Gigabyte Aorus Gaming 7 Z370...
Overlocking is simple and easy - got @ 5GHz on 1,26 V temps max after 1 hour in P95 60-70 but...
Maybe its bug with temp sensor VRM is hitting above 120 C - I can touch heatsinks without any problems also above 90C mini-fan should turn on but it doesn't so Im guessing that sensor is bad.
Also Gigabyte is equipping You with two temperature sensors which You can connect to the mainboard. I connected one and stick it with some space around VRMs and their heat sinks and it was showing around max 55 C...
So Im currently experiencing throttling after 15 min in P95 while VRM temp raising to 124C
I also tested it with RGB turned off.

And the question... What to buy now ?
Aorus Gaming 7 replacement
AsRock Taichi
AsRock Professional i7
Asus Maximus X Hero
What do You suggest?


----------



## AlphaC

Not sure how accurate Tom's hardware is at testing
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/gigabyte-z370-aorus-gaming-7-coffee-lake-motherboard,5262-4.html

This is definitely not overclocked since it has +47°C delta CPU temp.



Quote:


> Originally Posted by *https://www.bit-tech.net/reviews/tech/motherboards/gigabyte-z370-aorus-gaming-7-review/8/*
> We've seen some fairly varied results in terms of the voltage needed to get to our CPU to 5GHz, and we suspect that things will improve for everyone as time goes by. However, the Z370 Aorus Gaming 7 excelled itself in needing just 1.25V to get there, although we did also set load-line calibration to the maximum setting. Even so, this is a considerably lower voltage than both the boards we've tested so far and is likely the reason its load overclocked power consumption is so low.


(board compared vs MSI Godlike and ASUS STRIX-E)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *tiefox*
> 
> Pretty good review just came out of the MSI Godlike with thermal imaging of the VRMs. They never reach 60º C it seems.
> 
> https://www.tweaktown.com/reviews/8378/msi-z370-godlike-gaming-motherboard-review/index.html


It's with airflow over the heatsink and at 1.3V in Handbrake.

We all know that Prime95 , especially small FFTs is more stressful.

That said, the Gigabyte Gaming 7 is cheaper and cooler under the same test conditions with Tom's hardware having a higher effective result with same memory clocks too



https://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/ASRock/Z370_Taichi/14.html



https://benchlife.info/asus-strix-z370-f-gaming-with-core-i5-8600k-review-10222017/
Another SiRA12 confirmation for STRIX Z370-F

https://www.io-tech.fi/artikkelit/core-i7-8700k-retail-vs-engineering-sample/


Retail sample 5GHz Handbrake 132W TDP

Retail sample 194W TDP in Prime95 @4.8GHz, but this is with high temperatures so chip may be more power hungry


----------



## asdkj1740

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *GBT-MatthewH*
> 
> Yup... Full spec shows Vcore: 4+4, VccGT: 3, PWM = ISL95866, Vcore driver = 2x ISL6625a, VccGT MOS = 1 high 1 low, DDR MOS = 1 high 2 low.


what is the f5a beta bios updated on ultra gaming compared to official f5 bios?


----------



## tiefox

Pretty good review just came out of the MSI Godlike with thermal imaging of the VRMs. They never reach 60º C it seems.

https://www.tweaktown.com/reviews/8378/msi-z370-godlike-gaming-motherboard-review/index.html


----------



## kongasdf

I'm confused about the MSI Godlike Gaming use the controller IR35201 that has 3 modes, 8+0/7+1/6+2. I don't agree with MSI Z370 Godlike is 12+4+1+1 and the IR35201 seems to run in 6+2 mode
MB I/O has different between Z370 Godlike and Z170 Xpower

Z170 Xpower has HDMI output

Z370 Godlike hasn't video output

I prefer that MSI Z370 Godlike is 16+1+1


----------



## Ky0sHiR0

Hey,
What should be better asrock taichi or fatal1ty gaming i7 ? (OC on Kraken X62 - cpu delidded - got faulty aorus)


----------



## br0da

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kongasdf*
> 
> I don't agree with MSI Z370 Godlike is 12+4+1+1 and the IR35201 seems to run in 6+2 mode
> [...]
> I prefer that MSI Z370 Godlike is 16+1+1


This isn't possible due to the VRM peripheral components.


----------



## GotYaNoob

So with the LCC issue gone is the Extreme 4 the best bang for buck counting only the VRM?


----------



## AlphaC

@winter2 PMed me the back of the Gigabyte Gaming 5:


As far as I can tell all the magic (doubling, etc) is happening on the front of the board.

Looks nearly identical to back of the Z270X Gaming 7

The Z270X Gaming 7 also used the ISL95866 PWM so it wouldn't surprise me.

If it pans out to use Vishay SiRA18dp + SiRA12dp then it means the STRIX-E and STRIX-F have no reason to exist at the $200 mark unless you absolutely love ASUS , granted it seems SiRA14dp has a slightly higher amperage rating. People that don't need wifi can buy the Aorus Gaming 7 for $200 at Microcenter right now.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *GotYaNoob*
> 
> So with the LCC issue gone is the Extreme 4 the best bang for buck counting only the VRM?


Fatal1ty K6 if you are in the USA, it's $10 more and you get a Debug LED, power/reset , 2nd Intel LAN (with teaming)

Both have Dual BIOS though.

Note both are on Siliconlottery QVL
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ky0sHiR0*
> 
> What about more expensive boards ? Taichi/Professional/Hero ?
> Im looking for somethin due faulty Gigabyte Aorus Gaming 7
> I bet the all gaming 7 are really bad vrm heatsinks mounting causing temps issues.


Taichi if you want wifi. It has Dual BIOs and 3rd M.2 slot. The 3rd M.2 is the main draw over the Fatal1ty K6 and the Extreme4.

The Pro Gaming i7 is a poor value because you don't gain anything in terms of VRM (some sightings of the Sinopower SM7341 instead of Fairchild parts too) , the shroud over the VRM heatsink likely makes it hotter than the Taichi, and 10Gbps LAN is useless for most people.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ky0sHiR0*
> 
> It can be possible but I dont spend ~260 USD for remounting thermal pads. That's disgusting case for Gigabyte. Top motherboard...
> I got good chip ~1,25V for 5 GHz and now Im looking for replacement. Asus Hero its really pricy comparing to AsRock...


If you read my prelaunch spiel to Gigabyte Matt... you know how I feel about Gigabyte's Z370 offerings.

It's really a problem when you sell your best VRM based on RGB LEDs and the rest of your lineup is really lackluster in VRM and featureset other than Dual BIOS. I feel as though the entire Gigabyte lineup under the Gaming 7 needs a price cut by at least $20-30 and also a better VRM heatsink and/or thermal pads. I'm not sure who is the target market for the non-RGB Gigabyte boards. Why would anyone buy them over a Z370-A or an Extreme4 / K6?









Aorus branding is not as strong as ROG branding, so Gigabyte cannot expect the ROG price premium.

For ASUS STRIX, they're mainly selling off ROG branding. TUF is even worse: if I took all the labeling off and just showed you 2 specsheets , OC results, & pricing you would burst in laughter at how terrible the TUF series and STRIX-H are. The STRIX-H didn't even get LLC fixed AFAIK. The TUF series should never be $170 with ALC887, it should be at most $130. 5 year warranty isn't an excuse for the TUF series because in 5 years we know we will have 8 core mainstream CPUs making these Z370 boards outdated and irrelevant.

MSI has their Z370 SLI PLUs pretty much spot on at $140-150, but I'm not so sure on the rest of their lineup as far as pricing goes.

Here's the ~$1 price of a Fairchild part: https://octopart.com/fdpc5030sg-fairchild+semiconductor-59361866
About ~$1 for a similar Optimos https://octopart.com/search?q=BSG0811ND , https://octopart.com/search?q=BSG0813ND
About ~$2 for a IR3555 https://octopart.com/search?q=IR3555
About $6-7 per ISL99227B Powerstage ... https://octopart.com/search?q=ISL99227B
Here's the ~$0.40 price of a Sira12dp: https://octopart.com/search?q=Sira12dp
About $0.30 for a 4C06n: https://octopart.com/search?q=4c06n
About $0.25-0.30 for a 4C024N : https://octopart.com/search?q=4C024N


----------



## Ky0sHiR0

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AlphaC*
> 
> @winter2 PMed me the back of the Gigabyte Gaming 5:
> 
> 
> As far as I can tell all the magic (doubling, etc) is happening on the front of the board.
> 
> Looks nearly identical to back of the Z270X Gaming 7
> 
> If it pans out to use Vishay SiRA18dp + SiRA12dp then it means the STRIX-E and STRIX-F have no reason to exist at the $200 mark unless you absolutely love ASUS , granted it seems SiRA14dp has a slightly higher amperage rating.
> Fatal1ty K6 if you are in the USA, it's $10 more and you get a Debug LED, power/reset , 2nd Intel LAN ,audio amp
> 
> Both have Dual BIOS though.


What about more expensive boards ? Taichi/Professional/Hero ?
Im looking for somethin due faulty Gigabyte Aorus Gaming 7
I bet the all gaming 7 are really bad vrm heatsinks mounting causing temps issues.


----------



## Exilon

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ky0sHiR0*
> 
> What about more expensive boards ? Taichi/Professional/Hero ?
> Im looking for somethin due faulty Gigabyte Aorus Gaming 7
> I bet the all gaming 7 are really bad vrm heatsinks mounting causing temps issues.


Or the thermal pad used is crap.


----------



## Ky0sHiR0

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Exilon*
> 
> Or the thermal pad used is crap.


It can be possible but I dont spend ~260 USD for remounting thermal pads. That's disgusting case for Gigabyte. Top motherboard...
I got good chip ~1,25V for 5 GHz and now Im looking for replacement. Asus Hero its really pricy comparing to AsRock...


----------



## CrazyHeaven

Wait? So Aorus has heat issues?


----------



## GotYaNoob

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AlphaC*
> 
> Fatal1ty K6 if you are in the USA, it's $10 more and you get a Debug LED, power/reset , 2nd Intel LAN (with teaming)
> 
> Both have Dual BIOS though.
> 
> Note both are on Siliconlottery QVL


Well in my country the K6 and Extreme 4 are more than 20€ apart which seems to much just for that.. But in terms of VRMs they are the same right? Because someone said that there are two versions of VRMs on Extreme 4


----------



## AlphaC

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CrazyHeaven*
> 
> Wait? So Aorus has heat issues?


It's far too early to tell, but any heat issues on the Gaming 7 are only from the heatsink. Techreport's dossier (report) and some other claims of increased mounting pressure resulting in temperature drops.

The one thing to note is Steven (tweaktown) removed his heatsinks and remounted them. So if his results are better than others maybe he torqued them down. Also Blender is less stressful than Prime95.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *GotYaNoob*
> 
> Well in my country the K6 and Extreme 4 are more than 20€ apart which seems to much just for that.. But in terms of VRMs they are the same right? Because someone said that there are two versions of VRMs on Extreme 4


We have seen both versions on the Extreme4

In terms of VRM both are capable , but I'd give the edge to the Fatal1ty K6 since the heatpipe connecting the two heatsink sections means more fin area to dissipate the overall heat.


----------



## Ky0sHiR0

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CrazyHeaven*
> 
> Wait? So Aorus has heat issues?


Im experiencing vrm heat issue. I will try to get replacement or change mobo - I need to ask supplier first what he got.
I really don't wanna asus hero so only option is taichi/fatal1ity.


----------



## Telstar

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ky0sHiR0*
> 
> Im experiencing vrm heat issue. I will try to get replacement or change mobo - I need to ask supplier first what he got.
> I really don't wanna asus hero so only option is taichi/fatal1ity.


Why not? Besides the price, the Hero is a good board.


----------



## AlphaC

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ky0sHiR0*
> 
> Im experiencing vrm heat issue. I will try to get replacement or change mobo - I need to ask supplier first what he got.
> I really don't wanna asus hero so only option is taichi/fatal1ity.


What settings are you running?
1. Voltage : offset / fixed / adaptive , did you have AVX offset
2. LLC level and settings
3. testing done (prime95 / OCCT / AIDA64 / blender)
4. case & case airflow (include fan model and RPM)
5. other heat producing items in case such as GPU
6. ambient temp

More importantly how much wattage is your CPU using when you test?


AVX2 consumes more wattage than SSE at a higher clock
(see 2.5GHz AVX2 instructions using more watts than 3.1GHz SSE4.2 or 2.8GHz AVX)


----------



## Ky0sHiR0

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AlphaC*
> 
> What settings are you running?
> 1. Voltage : offset / fixed / adaptive , did you have AVX offset
> 2. LLC level and settings
> 3. testing done (prime95 / OCCT / AIDA64 / blender)
> 4. case & case airflow (include fan model and RPM)
> 5. other heat producing items in case such as GPU
> 6. ambient temp
> 
> More importantly how much wattage is your CPU using when you test?
> 
> 
> AVX2 consumes more wattage than SSE at a higher clock
> (see 2.5GHz AVX2 instructions using more watts than 3.1GHz SSE4.2 or 2.8GHz AVX)


5 GHz @ 1,26 V cpu delidded cooled by Kraken X62
LLC on Turbo
HT off and also CPU states iGPu also turned off
Fixed voltage
Testing in P95 (main problem) also some XTU
Kraken fans on front + 2 additional bequiet 140 silent wings 3 + 1 bequiet silent wings 3 on the back high speed
Ambient temp ~23 C
I dont remember AVX option in BIOS hmm...
Settings based on https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mcZkEZ8x3oA&t=1s
XTU shows ~170-180W

I dont want ASUS cuz in my opinion its overpriced in EU. Atleast in my country and its not even their best mobo yet.


----------



## Chrisch

ASRock Z370 Gaming K6 is a really good board. I have also the Maximus X Hero and on both i get same settings stable without problems.

The ASRock has actually only one bug, with memory @ 3800 is all good but it loses memory performance at 4000+.


----------



## lb_felipe

What does Silicon Lottery QVL mean on motherboards?


----------



## AlphaC

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *lb_felipe*
> 
> What does Silicon Lottery QVL mean on motherboards?


https://siliconlottery.com/pages/intel-coffee-lake
Quote:


> These are the components that Silicon Lottery has verified to work with the overclocks we test at.
> 
> CPU:
> Intel 8350K
> Intel 8600K
> Intel 8700K
> 
> CPU Cooler:
> Any AIO watercooler 240mm or greater.
> 
> Thermal Compound:
> ARCTIC MX4
> Gelid Solutions GC-Extreme
> Noctua NT-H1
> Thermal Grizzly Kryonaut
> 
> Motherboard:
> ASRock Z370 Extreme 4
> ASRock Z370 Fatal1ty Gaming K6
> ASRock Z370 Fatal1ty Professional Gaming i7
> ASRock Z370 Taichi
> ASUS Z370 ROG Maximus X Apex
> ASUS Z370 ROG Maximus X Code
> ASUS Z370 ROG Maximus X Hero
> ASUS Z370 ROG Maximus X Formula
> 
> Memory:
> Dual Channel DDR4-2133 1.2V
> Dual Channel DDR4-2400 1.2V
> Dual Channel DDR4-2666 1.2V
> Dual Channel DDR4-2800 1.2V
> Dual Channel DDR4-3000 1.35V
> Dual Channel DDR4-3200 1.35V
> 
> Ambient temperature:
> 25°C or less.


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *lb_felipe*
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> If I got it well, being on that QVL is a good thing for such component. Am I right?


Yes it means it is tested & good enough to run Silicon Lottery's binned chips (likely 5.1-5.2GHz based on Caseking's binned chips).
1 hour of Realbench is used to verify stability.


----------



## Scotty99

Nice ive got some kryonaut lying around lol.

What are the odds silicon lottery jacks prices up for 8700k delidded part? (not binned, just delidded).


----------



## lb_felipe

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AlphaC*
> 
> https://siliconlottery.com/pages/intel-coffee-lake


Thanks.

If I got it well, being on that QVL is a good thing for such component. Am I right?


----------



## Blackspots

Reading this thread has pretty much confirmed I should buy the ASRock Fatal1ty Z370 Gaming K6. I did have the MSI Z370 Pro Gaming Carbon AC as my second choice due to the WiFi PCI-E card with the Intel 8265 M.2 WiFi module. I don't really care about the fancy RGB LEDs. And part of my requirement for a motherboard was that it have two USB 3.0 headers next to each other, near the ATX power connector, just like my Gigabyte board. This is because I have the Case-Labs Mercury S8 case.

Of course, I could have that module directly on the K6, or buy just this https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00HF8K0O6/

I have that on my Gigabyte GA-Z170X-Gaming 6, but version 4.1 with the Intel 7265 m.2 module on it. I also have my Intel Core i5 6600K overclocked to 4.2GHz on this board on air, and doesn't bat an eye at this. (Idles at 32-33C, seems to max around 60C)


The Gigabyte and 6600K will go into my brother's computer when I upgrade (he currently has a 4790K and ASRock H97M Anniversary)


----------



## asdkj1740

taichi's wifi sucks, not buy taichi simply because of the wifi included.

i successfully push 200w on gigabyte ultra gaming, and the mosfet temp reported by hwinfo64 latest beta version is reaching 110~120c within one minute, even i have already put a amd ryzen stock fan on top of the mosfet heatsinks at full speed 2800rpm. cpu is cooling by aio, and all of them are on open test bench, 23c ambient temp.

honestly, on gaming, you are hard reach 150w constantly, so it is not a big concern to gamer who want 5ghz 8700k (1.4v) and 3733mhz ddr4 8g*2 (1.55v) with 1.28v vccsa and vccio.
and definitely there are still rooms to reduce the voltages to further lower the power draw and heat.

please note that the heatinks on ultra gaming/hd3/hd3p from gigabyte are already quiet good in terms of surface area given the total volume they are at.


----------



## Exilon

Why does the Gaming 7 have two platform sensors, and why is one of the waaaaaaaay off?

Nvm, HWINFO compatibility issue that's resolved in the beta. Still derpy by 10-20mV but much better than 1000mV!

On the bright side, my VRM temperatures measured from the back of the board are holding ~50C @ 150W package. The heat sink was screwed in solid out of the box, too.


----------



## m0rdax

Same here. 8700K / Gaming 7 VRM working well. Even with 5.2 GHz /1.42V stress testing with non AVX prime95 (1h) I was below 90°C most of the time. The VRM Fan spins with ~6000RPM but is surprisingly low noise considering the RPM. At that load my Corsair ML120Pros are way louder than than the VRM fan. That said, my cooling solution and case are bad for the VRM anyways. If the VRM hearsink gets some airflow from casefans the mini-fan should never be needed .


----------



## Exilon

Which sensor is more accurate though? The ITE IT8686E or ITE IT8792E?

I think the thermal pads are still crap, cranking it down is just mitigating the badness. The VRM heatsinks' temperature is far below the VRM_MOS sensor and my thermal probe on the board.


----------



## m0rdax

ITE IT8686E was behaving quite strange in my testing.
If it works, it reads higher peaks than the IT8792E, especially vcore. Sometimes it stops working and the IT8792E gets double the sensor values (vcore = 2.6V etc.). Other times it shuts off completly.
I'm wondering if that's the hwinfo betas fault or the chip itself overheating or failing at high voltages.
IT8686E sits near the debug leds and the pch. Do you know where the IT8792E is?

Edit:
IT8792E is left to the 3rd m.2 connector.

@Exilon
The two thermal probes the gaming 7 came with are pretty bad measuring surface temps. Did you connect these or different ones to your aquaero?


----------



## Exilon

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *m0rdax*
> 
> ITE IT8686E was behaving quite strange in my testing.
> @Exilon
> The two thermal probes the gaming 7 came with are pretty bad measuring surface temps. Did you connect these or different ones to your aquaero?


I used the ones that came with my Aquaero.

I'm also seeing the 8686E go sideways. Quite disconcerting that this is an issue...


----------



## Ky0sHiR0

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *m0rdax*
> 
> Same here. 8700K / Gaming 7 VRM working well. Even with 5.2 GHz /1.42V stress testing with non AVX prime95 (1h) I was below 90°C most of the time. The VRM Fan spins with ~6000RPM but is surprisingly low noise considering the RPM. At that load my Corsair ML120Pros are way louder than than the VRM fan. That said, my cooling solution and case are bad for the VRM anyways. If the VRM hearsink gets some airflow from casefans the mini-fan should never be needed .


Yes the mini fan its really silent but it's new. What about noise after running few months.


----------



## RustySpoons

I'm so confused what to buy, I've been reading up for days and none the wiser.

I can't decide between the Aorus Gaming 7 or Maximus Hero X
I just want the best board, the price does not matter.

Can anyone tell me which is the best board out of these and which has the best VRMs?


----------



## Exilon

On paper Gaming 7 looks nice but I can't tell how much voltage is being fed into the CPU and the VRM cooling seems suspect.

The current issue I'm working on:

VID is 1.33v, my offset is +0.075v.

One sensor says max of 1.488v (!) other sensor says max of 1.397v.


----------



## RustySpoons

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Exilon*
> 
> On paper Gaming 7 looks nice but I can't tell how much voltage is being fed into the CPU and the VRM cooling seems suspect.
> 
> The current issue I'm working on:
> 
> VID is 1.33v, my offset is +0.075v.
> 
> One sensor says max of 1.488v (!) other sensor says max of 1.397v.


That doesn't look very reassuring, it seems all these Z370 boards have issues with something.


----------



## CrazyHeaven

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RustySpoons*
> 
> I'm so confused what to buy, I've been reading up for days and none the wiser.
> 
> I can't decide between the Aorus Gaming 7 or Maximus Hero X
> I just want the best board, the price does not matter.
> 
> Can anyone tell me which is the best board out of these and which has the best VRMs?


I'm no expert on this but I believe the Aorus has the best between those two. Something about Aorus having 50 dollars in parts and the hero having 20.

I care about price because I'm hoping the 390s will be much better in terms of hardware and features.

I believe the best might be msi godlike. But that's in a whole different world in terms of price.

On the whole all these boards feel rushed. Hopefully they'll be able to take their time with the 390s.


----------



## Exilon

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RustySpoons*
> 
> That doesn't look very reassuring, it seems all these Z370 boards have issues with something.


I think the 8686E reading on the Gaming 7 is just completely wrong. It claims an idle voltage of 0.5v, but that's way too low as well.

I personally prefer the ASUS UEFI. Gigabyte's UEFI usability hasn't really improved since I last used them on Z77.


----------



## Techhog

So, has anyone figured out which temp is the VRM temp on Asus boards?


----------



## asdkj1740

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Techhog*
> 
> So, has anyone figured out which temp is the VRM temp on Asus boards?


what ddr4 you are using? xmp enabled? your vccio is very high.


----------



## Techhog

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *asdkj1740*
> 
> what ddr4 you are using? xmp enabled? your vccio is very high.


Yeah, it's Vengence LPX 3000 with XMP enabled.


----------



## RustySpoons

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CrazyHeaven*
> 
> I'm no expert on this but I believe the Aorus has the best between those two. Something about Aorus having 50 dollars in parts and the hero having 20.
> 
> I care about price because I'm hoping the 390s will be much better in terms of hardware and features.
> 
> I believe the best might be msi godlike. But that's in a whole different world in terms of price.
> 
> On the whole all these boards feel rushed. Hopefully they'll be able to take their time with the 390s.


In the UK both boards are the same price. They are throwing in a AIO with the Gaming 7 but I don't care for that. It's so hard to work out which board is best. Ive fixed a lot of Gigabyte boards with cold boot issues. Often due to the reasons wearing out and corrupting the BIOS. And gigabyte fan control was awful. So my last board was a Hero VII with a 4790k which I loved. But this time I really do not know which one is best.


----------



## Telstar

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RustySpoons*
> 
> I can't decide between the Aorus Gaming 7 or Maximus Hero X
> I just want the best board, the price does not matter.


Then get the Apex.


----------



## RustySpoons

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Telstar*
> 
> Then get the Apex.


The Apex is not available in my region.


----------



## RustySpoons

Ok I'm ruling out the Gigabyte unless someone can tell me a reason I really should get it over the others.

Looking at ROG Hero X, AsRock Taichi and Gaming K6


----------



## AlphaC

Nobody can suggest you a motherboard until you mention more specific needs. If all you mention is CPU overclocking, I'd say 9 times out of ten it is the Fatal1ty K6 recommendation.

If you mention you need a 3rd M.2 slot or USB 3.1 gen 2 front panel connector for example, then Taichi is the choice you need to make.

Once you add memory overclocking then Taichi , since the Taichi has a superior memory VRM that is only relevant once you pass ~ 3600MHz mem clock. If you look at OCUK, 8pack mentioned Taichi can hit as high a mem clock as Apex.

If you are looking for stability, I believe Taichi has been better supported than the rest of the Asrock range

VRM confirmation on MSI Z370 Pro Carbon

https://www.ocaholic.ch/modules/smartsection/item.php?itemid=4113&page=3
Quote:


> The MSI Z370 Gaming Pro Carbon AC comes with a digital 10 phase power design regarding the CPU. The CPU power design, which is controlled by an uP9508Q dual-loop multi-phase buck controller, which has 5 output phases. Each phase controller is being doubled by an uP1961S from uPI Semiconductor. Unfortunately we can't find any details on this chip. Furthermore there are 12 NTMFS4C024N and 10 NTMFS4C029N MOSFETs on the high- and low- side.


Other thoughts: MSI shouldn't have put Killer LAN on the Gaming M5...


----------



## RustySpoons

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AlphaC*
> 
> Nobody can suggest you a motherboard until you mention more specific needs. If all you mention is CPU overclocking, I'd say 9 times out of ten it is the Fatal1ty K6 recommendation.
> 
> If you mention you need a 3rd M.2 slot for example, then Taichi is the choice you need to make.
> 
> Once you add memory overclocking then Taichi , since the Taichi has a superior memory VRM that is only relevant once you pass ~ 3600MHz mem clock. If you look at OCUK, 8pack mentioned Taichi can hit as high a mem clock as Apex.
> 
> VRM confirmation on MSI Z370 Pro Carbon
> 
> https://www.ocaholic.ch/modules/smartsection/item.php?itemid=4113&page=3
> Other thoughts: MSI shouldn't have put Killer LAN on the Gaming M5...


Absolute stability is key, so best VRM and board quality, OC to play around with. Really not fussed on flashy lights, could not care less for RGB.
Dual NIC would be very handy for me but not essential. At least 2x M.2 Slots.
My PC is heavily used, it's on constantly and I have nothing better to do









I have 2x Samsung 961 m.2 NVMe, 2x Samsung 840 Pro SATA.

One downside to the AsRock is EK Don't seem to make monoblocks for it, but that's no issue.

Decent audio would be a bonus but I have a Chord Qute DAC so no issue there.

I'm starting to lean towards AsRock, I have had a couple of their boards a Z97E-ITX which was an absolute beast and another ITX board that was in use 24/7 for 3 years as my music ripper/server which was totally fanless!
I had an issue with a CD rom drive not working, mailed AsRock and they went out, bought the same drive and fixed the BIOS! How is that for service.

Hard to work something out with the AsRock Range, the layout of the K6 power delivery is different to the Taichi, the Taichi looks identical to the i7, no idea which one is the best though.
Leaning toward the Taichi due to lack of bling.

The only think putting me off AsRock, is lack of epeen with that brand lol.


----------



## punked256

got my hands on ASROCK Z370 Pro4 but it feels so cheap and laggy ...
comparing to a PRO CARBON AC it's really bad
tested some games, FPS is decent but I get a lot of freezes and bumps with same CPU and RAM OC settings
guess low end is really low


----------



## Techhog

Looking into it, I guess that VCCIO is pretty high. Is there anything I can/should do about it?


----------



## moustang

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RustySpoons*
> 
> Ok I'm ruling out the Gigabyte unless someone can tell me a reason I really should get it over the others.
> 
> Looking at ROG Hero X, AsRock Taichi and Gaming K6


I just bought the Gigabyte Gaming 7.

For me, the ROG Hero X was just too expensive for what I needed. I wouldn't call it a bad deal per-say, but it has quite a few features that I'll never use and the $270 price was excessively high.

The Taichi was an extremely attractive motherboard. It had all of the features I wanted and at $210 was a good price compared to the rest.

And then there was the Gaming 7, which had two options that the Taichi lacked that I found attractive, but at $250 was a bit too expensive.

So I had pretty much decided on the Taichi....

UNTIL......

I found that Micro Center has the Gaming 7 on sale for $199.99.

And that was the deal maker for me. At $250 it was a bit too much for what it offered, but at $200 it's a very good value compared to other boards in the same price range.

So, if you can get the Gigabyte Gaming 7 on sale for $200, it's a great board. However, at it's regular price, it's not such a great deal. Unless you absolutely need all of the features of the Maximus Hero then IMO the Taichi is the most attractive option, giving all of the high end options the vast majority of people would want without feeling like ASRock cut corners to keep the price low.


----------



## AlphaC

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *punked256*
> 
> got my hands on ASROCK Z370 Pro4 but it feels so cheap and laggy ...
> comparing to a PRO CARBON AC it's really bad
> tested some games, FPS is decent but I get a lot of freezes and bumps with same CPU and RAM OC settings
> guess low end is really low


Check your LLC. You probably aren't getting enough voltage.

Nick Shih said there will be a BIOS update for the entire Asrock Z370 range. However, the Pro4 is low on the priority list.

The Extreme4 , Fatal1ty K6 , Fatal1ty i7 , Fatal1ty ITX , Taichi have had the update

It could be worse, you could have bought an overpriced $170 launch day z370 TUF board only to be told by ASUS that it won't be getting LLC fixed because the VRM hardware won't allow it...


----------



## RustySpoons

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *moustang*
> 
> I just bought the Gigabyte Gaming 7.
> 
> For me, the ROG Hero X was just too expensive for what I needed. I wouldn't call it a bad deal per-say, but it has quite a few features that I'll never use and the $270 price was excessively high.
> 
> The Taichi was an extremely attractive motherboard. It had all of the features I wanted and at $210 was a good price compared to the rest.
> 
> And then there was the Gaming 7, which had two options that the Taichi lacked that I found attractive, but at $250 was a bit too expensive.
> 
> So I had pretty much decided on the Taichi....
> 
> UNTIL......
> 
> I found that Micro Center has the Gaming 7 on sale for $199.99.
> 
> And that was the deal maker for me. At $250 it was a bit too much for what it offered, but at $200 it's a very good value compared to other boards in the same price range.


Wow that's a good price, I hope you like your board. Do you have the CPU yet?
In the UK The Gaming 7 costs £258 and the Hero is £244 for some reason, but there is a deal on the Gaming 7 where you get a Coolermaster 240 AIO and £40 steam vouchers so works out around £160 for that board
but the AIO and Steam voucher are no interest to me.

The Taichi is £200 and the K6 is £170
I'm building 2x Coffee lake machines, one is ITX And that will be an AsRock board.
Main PC will be a 8700k and HTPC will be 8400.


----------



## punked256

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AlphaC*
> 
> Check your LLC. You probably aren't getting enough voltage.
> 
> Nick Shih said there will be a BIOS update for the entire Asrock Z370 range. However, the Pro4 is low on the priority list.
> 
> The Extreme4 , Fatal1ty K6 , Fatal1ty i7 , Fatal1ty ITX , Taichi have had the update
> 
> It could be worse, you could have bought an overpriced $170 launch day z370 TUF board only to be told by ASUS that it won't be getting LLC fixed because the VRM hardware won't allow it...


on my i3 shows between 0.7 and 1.2 in CPUZ


----------



## moustang

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RustySpoons*
> 
> Wow that's a good price, I hope you like your board. Do you have the CPU yet?
> In the UK The Gaming 7 costs £258 and the Hero is £244 for some reason, but there is a deal on the Gaming 7 where you get a Coolermaster 240 AIO and £40 steam vouchers so works out around £160 for that board
> but the AIO and Steam voucher are no interest to me.
> 
> The Taichi is £200 and the K6 is £170
> I'm building 2x Coffee lake machines, one is ITX And that will be an AsRock board.
> Main PC will be a 8700k and HTPC will be 8400.


The CPU (8700K) is on backorder with expected shipping date being the 26th. (4 more days). Can't really tell you how good the Gaming 7 is until I get the CPU and at least a week to play with it. Fortunately if it turns out to be bad then I'll just remove it and exchange it for the Taichi. Micro Center is local for me, so it's just a 15 minute drive for the exchange.

I suppose if I really wanted the Coolermaster 240 the Gaming 7 would be appealing in your market. However, I've got no use of it. Still, it could be sold to offset the price somewhat.

But for your market and with your buying options, if it was me I would buy the Taichi. Solid high end board without excessive features that you wouldn't use (Does anyone really need dual Wifi?) and a far more reasonable price.

e-peen is overrated.


----------



## RustySpoons

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *moustang*
> 
> The CPU (8700K) is on backorder with expected shipping date being the 26th. (4 more days). Can't really tell you how good the Gaming 7 is until I get the CPU and at least a week to play with it. Fortunately if it turns out to be bad then I'll just remove it and exchange it for the Taichi. Micro Center is local for me, so it's just a 15 minute drive for the exchange.
> 
> I suppose if I really wanted the Coolermaster 240 the Gaming 7 would be appealing in your market. However, I've got no use of it. Still, it could be sold to offset the price somewhat.
> 
> But for your market and with your buying options, if it was me I would buy the Taichi. Solid high end board without excessive features that you wouldn't use (Does anyone really need dual Wifi?) and a far more reasonable price.
> 
> e-peen is overrated.


I don't need the WiFi, i'd never use that. I would use the dual nic though, I get fed up of manually configuring my main nic when I swap cables to hack/modify network devices.
so a 2nd nic will solve that.

1st Nov the date is for my 8700K, already parted my 4790K system out so using a Dell T1700 4790 Workstation till I get this built, haven't ordered RAM yet, the prices are scaring me!
Yeah I pulled the trigger on the Gaming 7 due to all the goodies, but changed my mind as I have 0 use for them so cancelled the order.
Spent the past 4 days reading up on boards, it's driving me made and becoming an obsession








There doesn't seem to be one perfect board for me, one minute its the G7, then the Hero X, then the Taichi!


----------



## punked256

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AlphaC*
> 
> Check your LLC. You probably aren't getting enough voltage.
> 
> Nick Shih said there will be a BIOS update for the entire Asrock Z370 range. However, the Pro4 is low on the priority list.
> 
> The Extreme4 , Fatal1ty K6 , Fatal1ty i7 , Fatal1ty ITX , Taichi have had the update
> 
> It could be worse, you could have bought an overpriced $170 launch day z370 TUF board only to be told by ASUS that it won't be getting LLC fixed because the VRM hardware won't allow it...


set it to LLC level 2 and now it's very smooth... wow..., will do some more testing against PRO CARBON


----------



## Blackspots

Ok, so which one should I really get??

Gigabyte Z370 Aorus Gaming 7
Gigabyte Z370-Aorus-Gaming-WiFi
ASRock Fatal1ty Z370 Gaming K6
MSI Z370 Pro Gaming Carbon AC

ASRock and Gigabyte Gaming Wifi are preferrable since they have two USB 3.0 headers next to each other, like they are on my Gigabyte GA-Z170X Gaming 6
The MSI is preferred because of its use of the PCI-E add in card for WiFi with the Intel 8265 M.2 WiFi module. It has two USB 3.0 headers, but one is at a right angle, and the other isn't.
The Gigabyte Gaming WiFi uses an older 3xxx series Intel WiFi M.2 module, and I could replace that with the 8265.
The ASRock, I would either buy an add in PCI-E card for WiFi, or buy the 8265 M.2 WiFi module and a set of wires and antenna.

Note:
The ram I use is DDR4-3200, the G.Skill Trident Z

Other options are as follows:
Asus ROG Maximus X Hero (AC WiFi seems to be the only version currently available) -- suggested by someone who works in the industry, specifically nVidia, I believe.
Asus ROG STRIX Z370-H Gaming


----------



## punked256

So tested again the PRO CARBON and it's just much more smoother, no matter what I do to both cards ( PRO 4 & CARBON )
I'm curious what makes the difference and what's the best card in order to have that smoothness.. APEX maybe?


----------



## vbezhenar

I'm going to buy delidded 8700K and overclock it to some reasonable level (not crazy voltage, I expect it to last for a few years). I'm going to use good air cooler (but I could use water cooling if absolutely necessary). I'm going to overclock RAM to something like 3200 MHz with low latency. I don't really care about aesthetics or expansions, my build will be pretty minimal, I value quality and durability before all and a bit of premium is not an issue. Is Asus ROG Hero would be a good choice for me?


----------



## RustySpoons

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Blackspots*
> 
> Ok, so which one should I really get??
> 
> Gigabyte Z370 Aorus Gaming 7
> Gigabyte Z370-Aorus-Gaming-WiFi
> ASRock Fatal1ty Z370 Gaming K6
> MSI Z370 Pro Gaming Carbon AC
> 
> ASRock and Gigabyte Gaming Wifi are preferrable since they have two USB 3.0 headers next to each other, like they are on my Gigabyte GA-Z170X Gaming 6
> The MSI is preferred because of its use of the PCI-E add in card for WiFi with the Intel 8265 M.2 WiFi module. It has two USB 3.0 headers, but one is at a right angle, and the other isn't.
> The Gigabyte Gaming WiFi uses an older 3xxx series Intel WiFi M.2 module, and I could replace that with the 8265.
> The ASRock, I would either buy an add in PCI-E card for WiFi, or buy the 8265 M.2 WiFi module and a set of wires and antenna.
> 
> Note:
> The ram I use is DDR4-3200, the G.Skill Trident Z
> 
> Other options are as follows:
> Asus ROG Maximus X Hero (AC WiFi seems to be the only version currently available) -- suggested by someone who works in the industry, specifically nVidia, I believe.
> Asus ROG STRIX Z370-H Gaming


The Strix Z370-H is the worst, if not one of the worst boards there. It's got bugger all in the way of VRM's and I just don't see the point in it?


----------



## AlphaC

@ Blackspots
I feel like the Maximus X Hero is a board for people planning to use it on LN2 and can't afford the Apex when it launches ...
I can't see a good reason to pay the price premium over a properly cooled GBT Gaming 7 or Taichi at this time. Assuming it is 50A Optimos specs then 8 of them is up to 400A even at 70-100°C T_case (although dropping to V_GS=4.5V results in more like 19A-31A), so putting a monoblock on it isn't exactly going to provide a huge benefit since Z370 is a dead socket and none of these i7-8700ks are consuming even close to 400A unless it's exotic cooling not for daily use. For regular users , it's only two M.2 slots , has no dual BIOS (Z370 was rushed so it is a good feature).

People that love RGB and will use RGB monoblock (to level out the RGB VRM heatsink concerns) = Gaming 7 , the 60A rated ISL99227B x 8 should be able to do much more under extreme cooling instead of a RGB VRM heatsink
* Overbuilt VRM, see Intel x299 CPUs... Asrock uses 12 of these for the x299 Taichi and can do 320W of power output even with a shoddy heatsink so 8 of them for a mainstream Intel CPU is crazy

People that need features and affordability (i.e. as far as MSRP price) without fluff , likely custom water with copper radiator and a universal CPU block (not monoblock) = Taichi
* Originally it was suspected Taichi ran 8 phases of the Fairchild FDPC5030SG but it is 10 of them... so it's actually better than expected. The memory VRM is also using 2 phases of them, so it's better for memory than the GIgabyte board provided the software-side is done right. To put it into perspective eight of a similar, slightly stronger faster 40A max rated TI NexFET were used on mainstream ROG Extreme boards for Z170/Z270 & Asrock z270 Taichi.
* each FDPC5030SG is rated 35A at 100°C T_case and 56A at 25°C T_Case

People that will overclock on air/ closed loop water below ~220-250W TDP and don't need > 4000MHz memory or 3rd M.2 or wifi = Fatal1ty K6
* A big headscratcher is the VGA port... but other than that, I can't see anything major that sticks out

I wouldn't touch the Gigabyte z370 Aorus Gaming wifi. It appears to be lower in the product stack than the z370 Aorus Ultra Gaming

ASUS STRIX-H is a absolutely no. They've denied any future BIOS update for that board re: LLC.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *punked256*
> 
> set it to LLC level 2 and now it's very smooth... wow..., will do some more testing against PRO CARBON


I hope that was helpful until they patch it fully.

Many people complained that Asrock's LLC settings are the opposite of other vendors in terms of highest/lowest levels

vbezhenar, anything midrange (i.e. Asus Z370-A , Asrock Z370 Fatal1ty K6/Extreme4, MSI Z370 M5/Pro Carbon/SLI PLUS, Gigabyte Gaming 5) would work for you if you're looking at average air overclocks. Fatal1ty K6 is just a good bet since it's generally affordable for all markets.


----------



## RustySpoons

@AlphaC,

In the UK the Hero X and Gaming 7 are the same price, sometimes the Hero X is cheaper £240-£250
The Taichi is only £30 less than the above 2.

Given the pricing there, what would you take?

P.s. I will be using a D14 SE2011 for the moment, then a EK Waterblock (Not Mono)


----------



## Blackspots

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AlphaC*
> 
> @ Blackspots
> 
> People that will overclock on air/ closed loop water below ~220-250W TDP and don't need > 4000MHz memory or 3rd M.2 or wifi = Fatal1ty K6
> * A big headscratcher is the VGA port... but other than that, I can't see anything major that sticks out.


So, basically my original choice of the Fatal1ty K6 was good. Don't really need to do heavy overclocking, but I would like to eventually do a closed loop water cooling system. Right now, on my Gigabyte G1 Gaming 6 Z170, I'm overclocking my Intel i5 6600K to 4.2GHz with no problems on air, and I am running 3200MHz RAM.


----------



## bloot

What amperage are Strix Z370-E & F fets rated at?


----------



## AlphaC

STRIX-E / F:
SiRA14dp: 15.8A at 70°C T_ambient and 46A at 70°C T_case
SiRA12dp: 20A at 70°C T_ambient and 53A at 70°C T_case

For reference, Z370-A :
4C09N (it's labeled 4C09B): 12.3A at 80°C T_ambient, 39A at 80°C T_case
4C06N (it's labeled 4C06B) : 14.9A at 80°C T_ambient, 52A at 80°C T_case


----------



## bloot

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AlphaC*
> 
> STRIX-E / F:
> SiRA14dp: 15.8A at 70°C T_ambient and 46A at 70°C T_case
> SiRA12dp: 20A at 70°C T_ambient and 53A at 70°C T_case
> 
> For reference, Z370-A :
> 4C09N (it's labeled 4C09B): 12.3A at 80°C T_ambient, 39A at 80°C T_case
> 4C06N (it's labeled 4C06B) : 14.9A at 80°C T_ambient, 52A at 80°C T_case


So for Strix E/F would it be the sum of both? 35.8A / 99A?


----------



## asdkj1740

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AlphaC*
> 
> Nobody can suggest you a motherboard until you mention more specific needs. If all you mention is CPU overclocking, I'd say 9 times out of ten it is the Fatal1ty K6 recommendation.
> 
> If you mention you need a 3rd M.2 slot or USB 3.1 gen 2 front panel connector for example, then Taichi is the choice you need to make.
> 
> Once you add memory overclocking then Taichi , since the Taichi has a superior memory VRM that is only relevant once you pass ~ 3600MHz mem clock. If you look at OCUK, 8pack mentioned Taichi can hit as high a mem clock as Apex.
> 
> If you are looking for stability, I believe Taichi has been better supported than the rest of the Asrock range
> 
> VRM confirmation on MSI Z370 Pro Carbon
> 
> https://www.ocaholic.ch/modules/smartsection/item.php?itemid=4113&page=3
> Other thoughts: MSI shouldn't have put Killer LAN on the Gaming M5...


i highly doubt the pro carbon is doubled 8 phases, while m5 is doubled.


----------



## AlphaC

@bloot
Would be *lower* of the two , since the high side would limit it. The high side turns on when the low side turns off.

Would be 15.8A for the STRIX E/F per phase , x 8 = 126A absolute maximum current with ambient (i.e. around the mosfet area) assuming you can keep it at 70°C or less around the mosfet and allowing for 150°C junction temp

If you could cool the mosfet casing to below 70°C then you could pump out 46A per phase but only if allowing the junction temperature to reach 150°C

Keep in mind that those are manufacturer specs and not based off the rise/fall , RDS(on).

When I punched the numbers off the specsheet I obtained estimated 100°C without a heatsink using 100A and 1.4V (~140W). When I used 125A and 1.4V (~175W) without heatsink I obtained estimated 136°C , which is much too high. Accounting for minor losses that aren't able to be calculated directly without information for inductors, capacitors, etc you really need your heatsink to be useful.

@ asdkj1740 , if the Pro Carbon is using 2 mosfets per phase then the recommendation table will be adjusted


----------



## bloot

Thanks @AlphaC

Damm 126A seems way too low power


----------



## AlphaC

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bloot*
> 
> Thanks @]AlphaC[/@]
> 
> Damm 126A seems way too low power


It's 126A , that's *current*
So assuming it's 126A x 1.3V = 163.8W (call it 163W) without a heatsink , no safety allowances adjusting for RDS(on) vs voltage and such

(A real PCB isn't going to be giving 1 sq in per mosfet)
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bloot*
> 
> I keep seeing too low power for a 200$ board, K6 is 350A if I am not mistaken.


The Fairchild parts are 35A with 100°C T_Case not T_ambient, it's not the same


Granted the K6 is likely more able to keep under those temperatures due to the added heatpipe.

There's a ~ 4% difference in efficiency (~88% vs ~92%) ; while the Gigabyte Gaming 7's Intersil Powerstage parts are over 92% efficient

STRIX's SiRA12dp datasheet current graph:


Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!







Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Blinky7*
> 
> I have ordered a 8600k that I plan to OC to the max with a Predator 360 and Samsung B-die RAM.
> So, until the processor is delivered (3 November) I got about 10 days to decide on Motherboard.
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!
> 
> 
> 
> I am kind of an Asus maximus fanboy and will take into consideration the aesthetics too in this decision (I am ashamed to say this, but its true that I want to build something beautiful to see through my tempered glass window of the Phanteks enthoo pro M).
> 
> However I am also a realist and there are 2 things that make me want to get a cheaper/v4m board :
> 1) Pairing a 8600k with an expensive board is stupid, as you will end up in a worse setup than pairing an 8700k with a cheap board, despite the possibly a little higher OC.
> 2) This platform is already dead within less than a year when Z390 comes and I will upgrade to an 9600k, so the term "investment" does not apply for the Z370 motherboards.
> 
> So I am looking at what to get that will not limit my OC (I want 5ghz 24/7 at least, and hopefully 5.2 if sillicon god allows me to), remains sensibly priced (over 200 euros is a no-go for the above reasons) and satisfies me in the looks department.
> 
> So, having read some stuff here, its obvious that the Asrocks Extreme4 and Fatality K6 are the bargain boards. Unfortunately, besides my Asus fanboyism, Asrock has changed local warranty to 2 years (down from 3) something which annoys me.
> MSI also seems decent with the Pro carbon and M5, but I got very bad experiences with the brand in the past (have sweared to only buy GPUs from them )
> 
> So going to the Asus parts I want your help.
> 1) The TUF are crap as is obvious
> 2) The Prime and Strix E/F seem to have the same 10 VRM setup, is that right?
> 3) I really like the looks of the Strix F board and gives you a taste of the Maximus flavour that I cant afford for the above reasons. Its price however is higher locally than it should be (about 225 euros when the Fatality is 188 and Extreme4 is 165). Assuming it goes down to a sensible 195-200 euros, is there something that this board lacks in OC capability from the Asrocks?
> 
> 
> 4) If I cant get the Strix cheaper, the Prime is at ~180 euros currently. Forgetting the ROG branding and looks, is there anything this misses in OC capability/VRM from the Strix and the Asrocks?


I believe you'll be fine with the STRIX-E/F , Z370-A, or Asrock boards higher than the Extreme4. The i5-8600k isn't going to consume the extra wattage from hyperthreading.

The STRIX-E/F and Z370-A don't use the exact same parts. Similar in efficiency and layout, but not the same.

We're collectively not sure on the MSI boards. The MSI Z370 M5 boards have the potential to be on par with the STRIX-F (depends on doubling scheme) but I think the plastic over the Pro Carbon is going to hold it back. I can't recommend either due to uncertainty _and also because I hate Killer LAN as the only LAN_.

I've seen at least one report of a user on a "do not buy board" ( Gigabyte Z370 HD3P) hitting 80ºC Prime95 blend at mere 1.21V with i5-8600k @4.8GHz, so it reinforces the idea that board belongs there in the do not buy section.

another Maximus X Hero confirmation



https://www.ocaholic.ch/modules/extgallery/public-album.php?id=1163

STRIX-I confirmation : 4c86n


Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!







an i3-8350k pulling 154W in Prime95 heated VRM only to ~42 degrees C (4.9GHz , 1.376V)
https://www.hardwareinside.de/asus-rog-strix-z370-i-gaming-das-kleine-monster-28486/4/

5.4GHz i5-8600k superpi


Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!






http://www.vmodtech.com/th/article/asus-rog-strix-z370-i-gaming-review/page/8


----------



## bloot

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AlphaC*
> 
> It's 126A , that's *current*
> So assuming it's 126A x 1.3V = 163.8W (call it 163W) without a heatsink , no safety allowances adjusting for RDS(on) vs voltage and such


I keep seeing too low power for a 200$ board, K6 is 350A if I am not mistaken.


----------



## CrazyHeaven

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RustySpoons*
> 
> @AlphaC,
> 
> In the UK the Hero X and Gaming 7 are the same price, sometimes the Hero X is cheaper £240-£250
> The Taichi is only £30 less than the above 2.
> 
> Given the pricing there, what would you take?
> 
> P.s. I will be using a D14 SE2011 for the moment, then a EK Waterblock (Not Mono)


In that event I'd go with either the hero or save the money and pick up the Taichi.


----------



## RustySpoons

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CrazyHeaven*
> 
> In that event I'd go with either the hero or save the money and pick up the Taichi.


Yeah probably going to be the Hero, loved my Hero VII


----------



## Blinky7

I have ordered a 8600k that I plan to OC to the max with a Predator 360 and Samsung B-die RAM.
So, until the processor is delivered (3 November) I got about 10 days to decide on Motherboard.

I am kind of an Asus maximus fanboy and will take into consideration the aesthetics too in this decision (I am ashamed to say this, but its true that I want to build something beautiful to see through my tempered glass window of the Phanteks enthoo pro M).

However I am also a realist and there are 2 things that make me want to get a cheaper/v4m board :
1) Pairing a 8600k with an expensive board is stupid, as you will end up in a worse setup than pairing an 8700k with a cheap board, despite the possibly a little higher OC.
2) This platform is already dead within less than a year when Z390 comes and I will upgrade to an 9600k, so the term "investment" does not apply for the Z370 motherboards.

So I am looking at what to get that will not limit my OC (I want 5ghz 24/7 at least, and hopefully 5.2 if sillicon god allows me to), remains sensibly priced (over 200 euros is a no-go for the above reasons) and satisfies me in the looks department.

So, having read some stuff here, its obvious that the Asrocks Extreme4 and Fatality K6 are the bargain boards. Unfortunately, besides my Asus fanboyism, Asrock has changed local warranty to 2 years (down from 3) something which annoys me.
MSI also seems decent with the Pro carbon and M5, but I got very bad experiences with the brand in the past (have sweared to only buy GPUs from them )

So going to the Asus parts I want your help.
1) The TUF are crap as is obvious
2) The Prime and Strix E/F seem to have the same 10 VRM setup, is that right?
3) I really like the looks of the Strix F board and gives you a taste of the Maximus flavour that I cant afford for the above reasons. Its price however is higher locally than it should be (about 225 euros when the Fatality is 188 and Extreme4 is 165). Assuming it goes down to a sensible 195-200 euros, is there something that this board lacks in OC capability from the Asrocks?
4) If I cant get the Strix cheaper, the Prime is at ~180 euros currently. Forgetting the ROG branding and looks, is there anything this misses in OC capability/VRM from the Strix and the Asrocks?


----------



## Telstar

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RustySpoons*
> 
> The Apex is not available in my region.


It will be released worldwide in a week or two. I guess they are ironing out the bios.

Besides, both the Hero and the Taichi are very good boards. Asus rog uefi is more polished and especially on the Apex is state of the art and allows a quicker and smoother overclock process (on z270 it was really the best).
Gigabyte is quite reliable but there is some vrm issue on SOME gaming 7 boards - poor contact from the heatsinks it seems and that put me off, until is proven that tgey can just be tightened with a screwdriver.
On Asrock boards lesser than the Taichi instead has been reported the use of two different vrm parts, which is unethical.


----------



## Blackspots

I tell you what, I think I'm just going to wait until the Z390 chipset is released. I'll just replace my i5 6600K with a i7 7700K, since the Gigabyte Z170 Gaming 6 does support it from a BIOS update a few months ago. That'll hold me over until the Z390.

On the right is the Z390 features


----------



## Exilon

After faffing about with the Gigabyte Gaming 7 for the weekend, I've come to the conclusions that:

The UEFI could use more work, and the dual BIOS works until it swaps between the two every time there's a hard lock and you have to remember what settings the other BIOS had.
VRM cooling is ok as long as there's some air flow around the area and the heatsink is firmly screwed in. See photo below for my setup.
The IT8686E sensor reading is unreliable at all times and goes completely nuts when the system is under load.
The IT8792E Vcore seems to match VID + DVID, this one doesn't provide all the readings.
Voltage under load (according to IT8792E) is very stable within 20mV of VID + DVID with Turbo LLC.
My 8700K needs 1.375-1.4V for 5GHz AVX


This board has about 3mm of clearance between the VRM heatsink and the 140mm fan in a Define S when using a radiator


----------



## Ky0sHiR0

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Exilon*
> 
> After faffing about with the Gigabyte Gaming 7 for the weekend, I've come to the conclusions that:
> 
> The UEFI could use more work, and the dual BIOS works until it swaps between the two every time there's a hard lock and you have to remember what settings the other BIOS had.
> VRM cooling is ok as long as there's some air flow around the area and the heatsink is firmly screwed in. See photo below for my setup.
> The IT8686E sensor reading is unreliable at all times and goes completely nuts when the system is under load.
> The IT8792E Vcore seems to match VID + DVID, this one doesn't provide all the readings.
> Voltage under load (according to IT8792E) is very stable within 20mV of VID + DVID with Turbo LLC.
> My 8700K needs 1.375-1.4V for 5GHz AVX
> 
> 
> This board has about 3mm of clearance between the VRM heatsink and the 140mm fan in a Define S when using a radiator


Seems fine. What abour your VRM temps with that setup and if You remember without the fan ? How did You remove i/o plastic case near the vrm ?
I can replace my aorus or buy taichi/fatal1ity/hero. Stil lwaiting for prices from supplier but don't know what exactly to buy now...


----------



## Scotty99

Would you guys take the strix-f over asrock extreme 4 if you could get it for same price?

I have 20% off amazon purchase, making strix same price as extreme 4. Asrock boards not sold by amazon yet, so going by newegg prices.


----------



## Exilon

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ky0sHiR0*
> 
> Seems fine. What abour your VRM temps with that setup and if You remember without the fan ? How did You remove i/o plastic case near the vrm ?
> I can replace my aorus or buy taichi/fatal1ity/hero. Stil lwaiting for prices from supplier but don't know what exactly to buy now...


VRM temps from my thermal probe says 65C. 8686E says 75C and then just completely bugs out until a power cycle.

I don't run smallFFT though, so CPU load maxes out around 230-280W @ 5GHz in x265 encoding. I have my PL1 and PL2 set to 230W (infinite) - 300W (20s) to keep power under control.


----------



## punked256

Finished testing the ASROCK Extreme 4: not great news to mention about it, did upgrade the BIOS, OC and everything, but it feels sluggish, not sure what to modify to improve that, I see no great improvement over the ASROCK Pro 4..


----------



## Scotty99

Slugghish/smooth are not usually terms people use when describing overclocks lol.

What exactly are problems you are running into.

BTW i ordered the strix-f.....now just to find a ps/2 to usb adapter. Or i guess i could ditch my 16 year old keyboard lol.


----------



## punked256

I don't know Scotty... I don't know.
I just get this micro freezes in the PUBG and some other games, played with all voltages but the difference it's clear.
Imma go get a Gaming 7 just to see how it performs...


----------



## Scotty99

Pubg is the worst optimized game in the history of PC gaming, wouldn't be basing your overclock results on that game.


----------



## gbates

If we can agree that Extreme4 is very similar to Gaming K6, a guy on Thai website managed to get some good results with memory overclocking. I think AlphaC wrote that if you want better memory overclocking you should buy Taichi over Extreme4/Gaming K6, so....
They've managed to run memory at 4200MHz CL16-16-16 2T @ 1.65V
http://www.ocstation.com/memside/mother-board/2192-asrock-fatal1ty-z370-gaming-k6-motherboard-review?showall=&start=3

I would not say this is sluggish


----------



## Antsu

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ky0sHiR0*
> 
> Seems fine. What abour your VRM temps with that setup and if You remember without the fan ? How did You remove i/o plastic case near the vrm ?
> I can replace my aorus or buy taichi/fatal1ity/hero. Stil lwaiting for prices from supplier but don't know what exactly to buy now...


Btw, you can also remove the fancy cover and LED for increased heat dissipation.


----------



## moustang

That brings up an interesting question for me.

I've got a 280mm radiator mounted directly above the motherboard. Currently it's setup as an exhaust, blowing the air out of the computer rather than sucking it in. I wonder if it would be better to reverse that and make it blow air into the case, which would result in blowing air directly over the VRM heatsink.

That would totally disrupt the normal airflow through the case, but since both my CPU and GPU are water cooled with their own AIOs I doubt it would make much difference to the rest of the system.


----------



## Exilon

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Antsu*
> 
> 
> Btw, you can also remove the fancy cover and LED for increased heat dissipation.


It doesn't really get hot enough for me to bother.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *moustang*
> 
> That brings up an interesting question for me.
> 
> I've got a 280mm radiator mounted directly above the motherboard. Currently it's setup as an exhaust, blowing the air out of the computer rather than sucking it in. I wonder if it would be better to reverse that and make it blow air into the case, which would result in blowing air directly over the VRM heatsink.
> 
> That would totally disrupt the normal airflow through the case, but since both my CPU and GPU are water cooled with their own AIOs I doubt it would make much difference to the rest of the system.


As long as the fan is sucking hot air away from the VRM heatsink, it should be fine. I would not bother flipping the fans unless you need to.


----------



## Ky0sHiR0

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Exilon*
> 
> It doesn't really get hot enough for me to bother.
> As long as the fan is sucking hot air away from the VRM heatsink, it should be fine. I would not bother flipping the fans unless you need to.


Is it better to mount fan as intake or exhaust with AIO for VRM better temps ?


----------



## Sin0822

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kongasdf*
> 
> I'm confused about the MSI Godlike Gaming use the controller IR35201 that has 3 modes, 8+0/7+1/6+2. I don't agree with MSI Z370 Godlike is 12+4+1+1 and the IR35201 seems to run in 6+2 mode
> MB I/O has different between Z370 Godlike and Z170 Xpower
> 
> Z170 Xpower has HDMI output
> 
> Z370 Godlike hasn't video output
> 
> I prefer that MSI Z370 Godlike is 16+1+1


Why confused? They doubled 6+2 to 12+4 for the CPU vore and iGPU phases, then they used a Primarion digital PWM and some On Semiconductor PowerPAKs for the VCCSA and VCCIO, most vendors use different PWM controller for VCCSA/IO as there aren't many PWM controllers that support 4 different PWM output blocks, most support 2. From my review:
Quote:


> The VRM on this motherboard is in a 12+4+1+1 phase configuration for the VCore, iGPU, VCCSA, and VCCIO. The main PWM is an IR35201, one of the most popular high-end digital PWMs on the market, and it's being used in 6+2 phase mode. Each power stage for the VCCSA and VCCIO is an IR3555 60A PowIRstages.
> 
> Read more: https://www.tweaktown.com/reviews/8378/msi-z370-godlike-gaming-motherboard-review/index3.html


BTW the NIC difference is because of a special networking tech they have called Killer xTend, it makes your motherboard capable of being a sort of switch/WIFIAP/wifi range extender, and you can also throttle connected device bandwidth in favor of providing more bandwidth to your rig. I assume the price of the board is high because the license is pricey as are the three wired NICs and a single killer wireless NIC.


----------



## aDyerSituation

Should I just get the Maximus X Hero for a 5.2-5.3 binned chip or will the Gaming Pro Carbon be enough?


----------



## AlphaC

Binned chip (I'm assuming it's about 1.35v) should be fine on z370 Pro carbon although I think the heatsink is hampered by the plastic covers. I wouldn't push it on AVX2, but for SSE or AVX with maybe -200Mhz or -300MHz offset I believe the power draw will be close enough. All the midrange boards should be capable of ~ 220W with airflow

edit: For example AVX2 is used in x265 and ffmpeg

Another Extreme4 review



https://elchapuzasinformatico.com/2017/10/asrock-z370-extreme-4-review/3


----------



## aDyerSituation

Yeah I'm not sure what the voltage will be like, probably 1.35 to 1.4. I probably won't be buying for another 2 months or so but I want to get an idea of how much I need to spend for a motherboard that can overclock. I won't use the extra features of the Hero


----------



## moustang

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Exilon*
> 
> As long as the fan is sucking hot air away from the VRM heatsink, it should be fine. I would not bother flipping the fans unless you need to.


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ky0sHiR0*
> 
> Is it better to mount fan as intake or exhaust with AIO for VRM better temps ?


Depends on the system and configuration.

I was curious in my situation because I have a very large full tower case with a huge amount of space inside. The fans are nearly an inch away from the top of the motherboard, and there's a ton of empty space all around the radiator. With the AIO set to exhaust it can pull a lot of air out of the system without getting much airflow across the VRM heatsink specifically. Switching to an intake would at least blow part of the air directly on the VRM heatsinks, which might improve temps for me by a few degrees.

In a system with less free space such a switch would have less of a benefit. More air would be pulled across the VRM heatsinks in an exhaust configuration so there would be less of a change if it was swapped to an intake configuration. Antsu posted a picture where the fan was about 3mm from the VRM heatsink. Fan orientation wouldn't make much difference in that setup. My fans are closer to 3cm away from the heatsinks and there's more space to draw air in from other directions, so the fan orientation could conceivably have a greater impact for me.


----------



## aDyerSituation

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *aDyerSituation*
> 
> Yeah I'm not sure what the voltage will be like, probably 1.35 to 1.4. I probably won't be buying for another 2 months or so but I want to get an idea of how much I need to spend for a motherboard that can overclock. I won't use the extra features of the Hero


So I am looking at the MSI webiste page for the Z370 Gaming Pro Carbon

https://www.msi.com/Motherboard/Z370-GAMING-PRO-CARBON-AC/Overview

and it says there is a debug LED.

Where??? Am I missing something?


----------



## moustang

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *aDyerSituation*
> 
> So I am looking at the MSI webiste page for the Z370 Gaming Pro Carbon
> 
> https://www.msi.com/Motherboard/Z370-GAMING-PRO-CARBON-AC/Overview
> 
> and it says there is a debug LED.
> 
> Where??? Am I missing something?


It's not what you think which is why you don't see them.

There are 4 tiny LED lights on the top-right corner of the motherboard. They are marked "EZ Debug LED" and are just above the 24-pin power connector.

But they're pretty much useless, there's no code reader or onboard power/reset/clear CMOS buttons. I suppose they are there so their tech support might be able to figure out what's wrong when you tell them the blinking pattern.


----------



## XPrecep

Got the Hero, fitted the monoblock. Going to report back some numbers when I can.

I don't have any kit for making direct heat and power measurements though, and I'm specifically interested in VRM temps.

Are the VRM sensor readings super hidden or will I be able to view them? Also, can someone suggest kit for making real readings - I'd like to up my game a bit and actually start taking this seriously.


----------



## AlphaC

@ aDyerSituation

If you want to be more sure, grab a board on the Siliconlottery QVL.

I'd budget $150-160 (Extreme4/Fatal1ty K6 cost on Newegg). In two months maybe all this early adopter price gouging will end.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *XPrecep*
> 
> Got the Hero, fitted the monoblock. Going to report back some numbers when I can.
> 
> I don't have any kit for making direct heat and power measurements though, and I'm specifically interested in VRM temps.
> 
> Are the VRM sensor readings super hidden or will I be able to view them? Also, can someone suggest kit for making real readings - I'd like to up my game a bit and actually start taking this seriously.


Voltage x current = power.

Use hwinfo64 and attempt to verify results with an infrared thermometer at the back of your board (aim it to the back of the board where the VRM heatsinks are).


----------



## aDyerSituation

Only reason I haven't considered those boards much is because of the weird VGA and DVI on the motherboard.

It's weird but I am picky like that


----------



## Exilon

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AlphaC*
> 
> @ aDyerSituation
> 
> Use hwinfo64 and attempt to verify results with an infrared thermometer at the back of your board (aim it to the back of the board where the VRM heatsinks are).


Any reason to not use a 10K thermistor and some electrical tape? The Hero should have some ext_T sensors for those.


----------



## AlphaC

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *aDyerSituation*
> 
> Only reason I haven't considered those boards much is because of the weird VGA and DVI on the motherboard.
> 
> It's weird but I am picky like that


I agree that the port selection is puzzling. I don't think anyone upgrading to Coffee Lake will be using VGA. DVI? Maybe... but there's no reason for either when there are DP / HDMI to VGA and DP / HDMI to DVI adapters. At this point all midrange $160+ boards should be DP + HDMI.

Z370 Pro carbon review

http://www.pctekreviews.com/Reviews/MSI_Z370_GAMING_PRO_CARBON_AC.aspx
Quote:


> 8 + 2stage CPU voltage regulator circuit uses pair of ON Semiconductor 4C024 and 4C029 MOSFETS with combined rating of 60A controlled by UPI Semiconductor uP9508 PWM Controller.




http://www.hkepc.com/15719/%E4%B8%AD%E9%9A%8EZ370%E9%9B%BB%E7%AB%B6MB_MSI_Z370_Gaming_Pro_CARBON_AC
(this one might be repost)
https://www.ocaholic.ch/modules/smartsection/item.php?itemid=4113&page=3
(this one might be repost)

Z370-E STRIX

Quote:


> Digital 10-phase CPU Power VRM Section controlled with ASP1400BT controller IC with set of Vishay Si RA12/RA14 MOSFETs for per phase giving total up to 40A of current handling, 60A Ferrite Chokes, and 10K Black Metallic Capacitors.


http://www.pctekreviews.com/Reviews/STRIX_Z370E.aspx

Z370-E STRIX http://greentechreviews.ru/2017/10/09/obzor-materinskoj-platy-asus-rog-strix-z370-e-gaming/
(May be repost)
...
Optimos on Maximus X Hero (may be repost) http://www.coolenjoy.net/bbs/review/524256?p=4
...

Z370 TUF Pro Gaming confirmation (may be repost) http://greentechreviews.ru/2017/10/19/obzor-materinskoj-platy-asus-tuf-z370-pro-gaming/

...
Taichi (Fairchild) , may be repost http://www.coolenjoy.net/bbs/review/524554?p=3

....
GB Ultra Gaming with 4c10n+4c06n (May be repost) https://www.ixbt.com/mainboard/gigabyte/z370-aorus-ultra-gaming.shtml


----------



## Techhog

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Techhog*
> 
> Looking into it, I guess that VCCIO is pretty high. Is there anything I can/should do about it?


Does anyone have an answer for this? I think is harshly affecting my CPU temps too. I don't know what's considered a safe voltage to test for this though.


----------



## bloot

Set it manually to 1.05-1.1, those are safe values. But it depends on memory frequency, for 3600+ it probably would need more than 1.1.


----------



## Techhog

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bloot*
> 
> Set it manually to 1.05-1.1, those are safe values. But it depends on memory frequency, for 3600+ it probably would need more than 1.1.


My memory is at 3000MHz. What should I use to test the memory stability?


----------



## bloot

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Techhog*
> 
> My memory is at 3000MHz. What should I use to test the memory stability?


I use bootable memtest86+ http://www.memtest.org/#downiso

I've seen many people use HCI memtest though http://hcidesign.com/memtest/


----------



## Techhog

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bloot*
> 
> I use bootable memtest86+ http://www.memtest.org/#downiso
> 
> I've seen many people use HCI memtest though http://hcidesign.com/memtest/


Okay. I might try to see if I can reduce the memory voltage a but too. I don't even know why it's 1.36V when the kit says that XMP is 1.35V


----------



## bloot

Yeah this board likes to overvoltage everything lol


----------



## Blinky7

I want to pair a 8600k with the cheapest motherboard that wont limit my overclock (Predator 360 AIO cooler, hoping for 5-5.2 nonAVX).
Is this motherboard the Asrock Extreme4?
Is the Asus Prime-A better or worse than it?
Any other?

Judging only by overclockability (VRM, LLC, cooling etc)


----------



## snaky89

I just ordered Gigabyte aorus Z370 gaming 5? I really needed the wifi and loved the atheistics.

Did i make a mistake? Any info on VRM it's using?

Going to delid cpu and build customloop on it.


----------



## AlphaC

@snaky89

You didn't make a mistake. I just don't feel it is the _best_ choice for overclocking given the cost and the uncertainty of the parts it's using. The ASUS Z370-A Prime may be a better choice if properly cooled. It's roughly the same argument against the STRIX-F/E though.

There's several advantages to the Gigabyte Z370 Gaming 5: Debug LED + Dual BIOs, wifi, and some that aren't overclocking related such as WIMA caps for audio and 3rd M.2 slot.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Blinky7*
> 
> I want to pair a 8600k with the cheapest motherboard that wont limit my overclock (Predator 360 AIO cooler, hoping for 5-5.2 nonAVX).
> Is this motherboard the Asrock Extreme4?
> Is the Asus Prime-A better or worse than it?
> Any other?
> 
> Judging only by overclockability (VRM, LLC, cooling etc)


Asrock z370 Extreme4 is a better board than the Z370-A Prime as far as overclocking. Several advantages include: mosfet selection (VRM), capacitor selection (VRM), inductor/choke selection (VRM), 2 phase memory VRM with 4333MHz QVL, dual BIOs, audio amp, wifi slot if you want to add wifi, etc.

Not as much data on i5-8600k. Some samples have been seen to consume around 130W overclocked in Linx / Linpack stress test or Prime95 non-AVX. That's not Prime95 with AVX2 however , supposedly it can peak around 160W with 4.9GHz.
https://www.purepc.pl/procesory/test_procesora_intel_core_i5_8600k_rzeznik_zwany_coffee_lake?page=0,41
https://www.io-tech.fi/artikkelit/testissa-intel-core-i7-8700k-core-i5-8600k-coffee-lake/
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/intel-coffee-lake-core-i5-8600k-cpu,5264-11.html

edit: K6 has 2nd Intel LAN (with teaming) , a heatpipe for the VRM heatsink (better thermals) , Hyper BCLK Engine II (base clock gen), debug LED (as you mentioned), XMP switch, power/reset button , 3rd reinforced PCIE slot (fluff) , Creative Sound Blaster Cinema 3.0 (likely software)
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *unkletom*
> 
> For Skylake I bought the Asus z270-f and paid like €210 for it. I didn't feel like I got my money's worth. I couldn't even run the ram at it's default 3866 mhz speed.
> 
> So for Coffee Lake I went with the Asrock Extreme 4 it just arrived at my house. Only cost €165 and has superior specs in the range (on paper). Just need to find a 8700k in stock now


The Z270 Extreme4 was OK, not as good as Z370 Extreme4 as far as value. Z370 VRM has been stepped up.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *tiefox*
> 
> Still waiting anxiously, my 8700k arrived and I have no motherboard for it yet.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm almost pulling the trigger on the MSI Godlike because according to the APEX manual, my memory kick is not on its QVL ( Gskill 2x8gb 4266mhz cas 19 rgb ). The only boards that have this kit on the QVL are the Asrock, but I hate how they look.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Doesn't the godlike have 2 phases for the memory ?


Yes Godlike does, but it's 4c029 and 4c024 from Onsemi rather than the Fairchild dual channel mosfets on Taichi. I figure they're slower and because the QVL is 4133MHz only, I wouldn't chance paying double for mediocre gains (if not losses).


----------



## unkletom

For Kaby Lake I bought the Asus z270-f and paid like €210 for it. I didn't feel like I got my money's worth. I couldn't even run the ram at it's default 3866 mhz speed.

So for Coffee Lake I went with the Asrock Extreme 4 it just arrived at my house. Only cost €165 and has superior specs in the range (on paper). Just need to find a 8700k in stock now


----------



## tiefox

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *XPrecep*
> 
> If I were you, I'd wait until Monday - at that point we'll know if that release information is true or not.


Still waiting anxiously, my 8700k arrived and I have no motherboard for it yet.









I'm almost pulling the trigger on the MSI Godlike because according to the APEX manual, my memory kick is not on its QVL ( Gskill 2x8gb 4266mhz cas 19 rgb ). The only boards that have this kit on the QVL are the Asrock, but I hate how they look.









Doesn't the godlike have 2 phases for the memory ?


----------



## Blinky7

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AlphaC*
> 
> Asrock z370 Extreme4 is a better board than the Z370-A Prime as far as overclocking. Several advantages include: mosfet selection (VRM), capacitor selection (VRM), inductor/choke selection (VRM), 2 phase memory VRM with 4333MHz QVL, dual BIOs, audio amp, wifi slot if you want to add wifi, etc.


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *unkletom*
> 
> For Kaby Lake I bought the Asus z270-f and paid like €210 for it. I didn't feel like I got my money's worth. I couldn't even run the ram at it's default 3866 mhz speed.
> 
> So for Coffee Lake I went with the Asrock Extreme 4 it just arrived at my house. Only cost €165 and has superior specs in the range (on paper). Just need to find a 8700k in stock now


I am with both of you on that.
I love the aesthetics on the Strix-F, and to a lesser extent on the Prime (its great for a white-black build) , but I feel I am seriously getting ripped off here by Asus, especially on the Strix.
I dont want to pay much money for a stopgap platform that I will sell in a year for an 8core i5.

So is there any serious competition to the Asrocks (Extreme4 and Fatality K6) in the sub-200e range? The Extreme4 is only 168 euros in my country and the Fatality 188e. Prime is 185e and Strix 220e.
Is there any serious offer to consider from other brands? (MSI?)
And is there any reason to pay the extra 20 euros for the Fatality (vs the Extreme4) if you only care about OC (and not the debug leds and little extra stuff)?


----------



## Blackspots

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AlphaC*
> 
> edit: K6 has 2nd Intel LAN (with teaming) , a heatpipe for the VRM heatsink (better thermals) , Hyper BCLK Engine II (base clock gen), debug LED (as you mentioned), XMP switch, power/reset button , 3rd reinforced PCIE slot (fluff) , Creative Sound Blaster Cinema 3.0 (likely software)


Yes, the Creative Sound Blaster Cinema 3.0 is software. It runs over the Realtek drivers, since the actual chip is the Realtek 1220. Works the same as my Gigabte Z170X Gaming 6, which uses the Creative Sound Blaster XFi 3 software over RealTek sound chip and drivers.


----------



## AlphaC

Steven's Taichi review https://www.tweaktown.com/reviews/8381/asrock-z370-taichi-motherboard-review/index3.html

Hardwareluxx's review of MSI Godlike https://www.hardwareluxx.de/index.php/artikel/hardware/mainboards/44598-msi-z370-godlike-gaming-im-test-high-end-platine-mit-drei-lan-ports.html?start=1

----

Some thermal shots from http://diy.pconline.com.cn/1017/10179400_2.html

(above) ASUS TUF Z370-PRO GAMING , roasting as expected


(above) Gigabyte Gaming 5


(above) MSI Pro Carbon


(above) iGame Z370 VULCAN X


(above) Biostar GT6


(Above) Asrock Fatal1ty k6

Note an aircooler worth $15 (100 yuan) was used and the author theorizes the K6 was heating from the CPU using the PCB as heatsink, rather than mosfets/chokes/inductors:
Quote:


> The maximum temperature at the temperature is as high as 76.5 ℃, but look carefully, in fact, the highest temperature is not appear in the above inductance, but the PCB board, this phenomenon in my years of motherboard evaluation is very rare ... repeated several times, The result is the same ... maybe the CPU base of the heat are passed on the PCB board, from the legend can be seen on the most inductor on the maximum temperature is about 68 ℃ look


*Gigabyte Gaming 5 might be OK*

Pugetsystems thermal images (usually they don't overclock) , via https://www.pugetsystems.com/parts/Motherboard/Gigabyte-Z370-AORUS-5-12308
https://www.pugetsystems.com/parts/thermal_images/Motherboard/Gigabyte-Z370-AORUS-5-12308
Fractal Design R5 case, EVGA GTX 1080


Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!






same thing but with a fan mounted at middle of the case to cool GPU


Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!






setup with GTX 1060 and no fan at middle of case


Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!


----------



## awesomegamer919

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Blinky7*
> 
> I am with both of you on that.
> I love the aesthetics on the Strix-F, and to a lesser extent on the Prime (its great for a white-black build) , but I feel I am seriously getting ripped off here by Asus, especially on the Strix.
> I dont want to pay much money for a stopgap platform that I will sell in a year for an 8core i5.
> 
> So is there any serious competition to the Asrocks (Extreme4 and Fatality K6) in the sub-200e range? The Extreme4 is only 168 euros in my country and the Fatality 188e. Prime is 185e and Strix 220e.
> Is there any serious offer to consider from other brands? (MSI?)
> And is there any reason to pay the extra 20 euros for the Fatality (vs the Extreme4) if you only care about OC (and not the debug leds and little extra stuff)?


Depends on location, the ASUS PRIME A is sometimes cheaper than the Extreme 4 (I have even seen the STRIX F being cheaper than the extreme 4 according to PCPartpicker!)


----------



## bloot

Wow K6 temps are surprisingly high, even if its because of the pcb heating effect he talks about (which is something really concerning in my opinion)

I've tried to touch the Strix F heatsinks while passing ITB on very high at 4.8GHz 1.184V and they were warm, I expected them to be hot, but I could keep my finger there forever. I'll get an infrared thermometer to get real temps anyway, this board has no vrm sensor or at least hwinfo doesn't show it.


----------



## kd5151

RIP ASUS TUF.


----------



## czin125

https://www.techpowerup.com/img/kZP6Y0W3OKcA9PP1.jpg
Not really a surprise though? It's listed on the asus site.

The K6 and the Extreme4 are based on the same pcb ( POOL is only found on the lower end Z370s and H270s but not in the super carrier/ Z270 Taichi )
Taichi and Fatal1ty i7 use a different pcb from the above since they lack POOL, right?
43C vs 76C


----------



## Ky0sHiR0

Hello, I recently got 8700K with Gigabyte Z370 Aorus Gaming 7 mobo with Kraken X62. Started to overlocking and find manual OC for 5,0 GHz around 1,26 V. Then I started setting adaptive voltage: ** In UEFI modify the voltage control **

CPU IA AC/DC: Auto (I override these to 1 in advanced settings anyways) LLC: Turbo Enable SVID voltage control

Vcore: Normal DVID: +0 V These to make VID constant regardless of load. Usually it slopes down.

IA AC Load Line: 1 IA DC Load Line: 1

All C states turned on. HT and iGPU turned off.

First I was trying to set offset via BIOS. It was stable range from 1,24 V to 1,308 V (with 0,060 mV offset) tested in Prime95 for few hours. Then I go back home and started playing PUBG with HWiNFO turned on. Noticed 1,35V spikes on max (weird while PUBG is using around ~30 % per core). Then I resetted my offset in BIOS (0,000) and installed XTU. First attempt without offset - Blue screen - okay. Second attempt offest + 0,025. Prime95 1344 custom - for 15 minutes it was ok then I left it and went sleep. When I woke up 3 hours later I noticed that Prime is still working but I saw in HWiNFO 2,5V on VCORE also displayed on CPU-Z. Also temp sensors wasn't working. XTU was still showing 'basic' vcore ? 1,214 V. I restarted CPU-Z and it was showing also 1,214 V. Is it kind of bug or something ? I noticed the same situation while setting offset via BIOS but I added +10mV and the issue disappeared but if it's doesn't matter I think I can live with that.


----------



## punked256

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ky0sHiR0*
> 
> Hello, I recently got 8700K with Gigabyte Z370 Aorus Gaming 7 mobo with Kraken X62. Started to overlocking and find manual OC for 5,0 GHz around 1,26 V. Then I started setting adaptive voltage: ** In UEFI modify the voltage control **
> 
> CPU IA AC/DC: Auto (I override these to 1 in advanced settings anyways) LLC: Turbo Enable SVID voltage control
> 
> Vcore: Normal DVID: +0 V These to make VID constant regardless of load. Usually it slopes down.
> 
> IA AC Load Line: 1 IA DC Load Line: 1
> 
> All C states turned on. HT and iGPU turned off.
> 
> First I was trying to set offset via BIOS. It was stable range from 1,24 V to 1,308 V (with 0,060 mV offset) tested in Prime95 for few hours. Then I go back home and started playing PUBG with HWiNFO turned on. Noticed 1,35V spikes on max (weird while PUBG is using around ~30 % per core). Then I resetted my offset in BIOS (0,000) and installed XTU. First attempt without offset - Blue screen - okay. Second attempt offest + 0,025. Prime95 1344 custom - for 15 minutes it was ok then I left it and went sleep. When I woke up 3 hours later I noticed that Prime is still working but I saw in HWiNFO 2,5V on VCORE also displayed on CPU-Z. Also temp sensors wasn't working. XTU was still showing 'basic' vcore ? 1,214 V. I restarted CPU-Z and it was showing also 1,214 V. Is it kind of bug or something ? I noticed the same situation while setting offset via BIOS but I added +10mV and the issue disappeared but if it's doesn't matter I think I can live with that.


I wonder if Maximus or Apex would be more stable in this matter...


----------



## Ky0sHiR0

I think it's stable but has a lot of other problems








Z370 motherboards seems like 'welcome in early access"
Asrock, Asus got problems with vdroops on llc and also I saw posts on reddit with voltage fluctuating ;P


----------



## venomousdesigns

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AlphaC*
> 
> Note an aircooler worth $15 (100 yuan) was used and the author theorizes the K6 was heating from the CPU using the PCB as heatsink, rather than mosfets/chokes/inductors:


In laymen's terms is this bad? My Asrock K6 is about to ship (based on recommendations from here haha) - I still have time to cancel and order another.

No Taichi or i7 Professional available. Should I just pay the $100 USD difference and just get a Asus Hero/Gaming 7 and put my mind at ease for a 'premium' product (I haven't followed this thread too religiously for a few days so I not sure if there has been a swing in recommendations)?


----------



## PrimoGhost

Does anyone knows which sensor on Formula X z370/Hero X is from *VRM*? T2 temp?


----------



## Lightningln

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ky0sHiR0*
> 
> Hello, I recently got 8700K with Gigabyte Z370 Aorus Gaming 7 mobo with Kraken X62. Started to overlocking and find manual OC for 5,0 GHz around 1,26 V. Then I started setting adaptive voltage: ** In UEFI modify the voltage control **
> 
> CPU IA AC/DC: Auto (I override these to 1 in advanced settings anyways) LLC: Turbo Enable SVID voltage control
> 
> Vcore: Normal DVID: +0 V These to make VID constant regardless of load. Usually it slopes down.
> 
> IA AC Load Line: 1 IA DC Load Line: 1
> 
> All C states turned on. HT and iGPU turned off.
> 
> First I was trying to set offset via BIOS. It was stable range from 1,24 V to 1,308 V (with 0,060 mV offset) tested in Prime95 for few hours. Then I go back home and started playing PUBG with HWiNFO turned on. Noticed 1,35V spikes on max (weird while PUBG is using around ~30 % per core). Then I resetted my offset in BIOS (0,000) and installed XTU. First attempt without offset - Blue screen - okay. Second attempt offest + 0,025. Prime95 1344 custom - for 15 minutes it was ok then I left it and went sleep. When I woke up 3 hours later I noticed that Prime is still working but I saw in HWiNFO 2,5V on VCORE also displayed on CPU-Z. Also temp sensors wasn't working. XTU was still showing 'basic' vcore ? 1,214 V. I restarted CPU-Z and it was showing also 1,214 V. Is it kind of bug or something ? I noticed the same situation while setting offset via BIOS but I added +10mV and the issue disappeared but if it's doesn't matter I think I can live with that.


1) Stay on Turbo LCC and set "CPU IA AC/DC" to "Power Saving"
2) Profit.








Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ky0sHiR0*
> 
> I think it's stable but has a lot of other problems
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Z370 motherboards seems like 'welcome in early access"
> Asrock, Asus got problems with vdroops on llc and also I saw posts on reddit with voltage fluctuating ;P


Don't know about other brand, but here, on Gaming 7, no prob exept sensor corruption on HWInfo. No possible comparison with Ryzen launch, who was crappy and who is still far than perfect after all this time (I was on Asus C6H).


----------



## Ky0sHiR0

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Lightningln*
> 
> 1) Stay on Turbo LCC and set "CPU IA AC/DC" to "Power Saving"
> 2) Profit.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Don't know about other brand, but here, on Gaming 7, no prob exept sensor corruption on HWInfo. No possible comparison with Ryzen launch, who was crappy and who is still far than perfect after all this time (I was on Asus C6H).


\

Which sensor are You using ? IT8792E or IT8686.
Few people suggest me first one


----------



## m0rdax

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ky0sHiR0*
> 
> \
> 
> Which sensor are You using ? IT8792E or IT8686.
> Few people suggest me first one


The IT8686 stops working quite often. It then shows double or half the actual vcore value or nothing at all.

Do you guys know what the "Memory Enhancement Settings" actually do? I thought it just loosens secondary or tertiary timing, but with "Relax OC" setting package power is about 40W less under load.


----------



## Ky0sHiR0

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *m0rdax*
> 
> The IT8686 stops working quite often. It then shows double or half the actual vcore value or nothing at all.
> 
> Do you guys know what the "Memory Enhancement Settings" actually do? I thought it just loosens secondary or tertiary timing, but with "Relax OC" setting package power is about 40W less under load.


I got situation when it was showing 2,5 V


----------



## RustySpoons

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *aDyerSituation*
> 
> Only reason I haven't considered those boards much is because of the weird VGA and DVI on the motherboard.
> 
> It's weird but I am picky like that


I'm the other way, I run 3 screens and a bit annoyed that they have removed one output off the high end boards.


----------



## AlphaC

@br0da

https://www.overclockers.ru/lab/87456_2/obzor-i-testirovanie-materinskoj-platy-asus-prime-z370-a.html


Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!






Seems Onsemi 4C09 +4C06 isn't correct all the time

LLC levels


I was quite surprised to find review with the exact same VRM on Z370-A as STRIX.

----

as far as the K6 datapoint:
I try to remain impartial as possible, which is why I don't suppress information. It may very well be the Fatal1ty K6 is hotter than the GB Gaming 5 in that specific test condition : it was measured from the front of the board.
_I've seen there's been a bunch of a dissent from a non-OCN user tech site reviewer regarding this thread (while peddling links to their site), but as long as this thread's informational integrity is maintained I will keep posting information in it. I believe that customers have a right to know what is going into their boards hardware-wise and how well that hardware translates into results._

as far as Gaming 7 adaptive voltage:
Don't use adaptive voltage, it's also been broken on Asus boards from what I've read. It may be broken across the entire motherboard lineup for all brands. Adaptive assumes the board can predict what voltage is required.


----------



## Ky0sHiR0

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AlphaC*
> 
> @br0da
> 
> https://www.overclockers.ru/lab/87456_2/obzor-i-testirovanie-materinskoj-platy-asus-prime-z370-a.html
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Seems Onsemi 4C09 +4C06 isn't correct all the time
> 
> LLC levels
> 
> 
> I was quite surprised to find review with the exact same VRM on Z370-A as STRIX.
> 
> ----
> 
> as far as the K6 datapoint:
> I try to remain impartial as possible, which is why I don't suppress information. It may very well be the Fatal1ty K6 is hotter than the GB Gaming 5 in that specific test condition : it was measured from the front of the board.
> _I've seen there's been a bunch of a dissent from a non-OCN user tech site reviewer regarding this thread (while peddling links to their site), but as long as this thread's informational integrity is maintained I will keep posting information in it. I believe that customers have a right to know what is going into their boards hardware-wise and how well that hardware translates into results._
> 
> as far as Gaming 7 adaptive voltage:
> Don't use adaptive voltage, it's also been broken on Asus boards from what I've read. It may be broken across the entire motherboard lineup for all brands. Adaptive assumes the board can predict what voltage is required.


Gigabyte motherboards doesn't have adaptive voltage mode. We are using dynamic offset with C states.


----------



## br0da

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AlphaC*
> 
> @br0da
> [...]
> Seems Onsemi 4C09 +4C06 isn't correct all the time


Corrected, thx!


----------



## Ky0sHiR0

For Gigabyte Aorus users:

If you use offset mode ("Normal" in Gigabyte UEFI), then Vcore will track VID with the following modifiers:

DVID ( +/- VID offset )
External load line ( Vdroop = N mΩ * Acpu ) where Acpu is the current Amperage of the CPU
VID AC/DC load line ( same formula as above )
If you use a manual voltage, the Vcore will be that manual voltage + the external load line Vdroop.

For the Gaming 7, there are two sensors IT8686E and IT8792E that can measure actual Vcore and they should be visible in Hwinfo. IT8686E is completely ****ed and shouldn't relied upon. IT8792E looks to be the more accurate of the two.

The two load lines mentioned above can be modified in the UEFI.

CPU Vcore Loadline Calibration under "Advanced Advanced Power Settings" is the external VRM load line.
IA AC/DC load line under "Internal VR Control" is the VID load line. This also overrides the "CPU internal AC/DC load line setting".


----------



## Telstar

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *venomousdesigns*
> 
> In laymen's terms is this bad? My Asrock K6 is about to ship (based on recommendations from here haha) - I still have time to cancel and order another.
> 
> No Taichi or i7 Professional available. Should I just pay the $100 USD difference and just get a Asus Hero/Gaming 7 and put my mind at ease for a 'premium' product (I haven't followed this thread too religiously for a few days so I not sure if there has been a swing in recommendations)?


Yeah i would probably get the Hero.


----------



## ranc1d

Evening,

Just got my i7 8700k and can't decide on a mobo. Have it narrowed down to the Gaming 7 and the ASRock Fatal1ty i7 pro. Leaning towards the ASRock because of the NIC teaming, but can't find any reviews. Looking for a 5ghz oc on a custom loop, 3600mhz - 3800hz TridentZ ram.

Thanks for the help.


----------



## betaflame

Apparently search can't handle hyphens....

The Z370-G appears to be the only worthwhile MATX board?


----------



## gbates

If you want LAN with teaming you could buy Taichi or even cheaper Gaming K6. Fatal1ty i7 pro costs extra because of 10Gbit LAN...


----------



## gbates

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *betaflame*
> 
> Apparently search can't handle hyphens....
> 
> The Z370-G appears to be the only worthwhile MATX board?


Not so many to choose from right now... Maybe ask on EVGA forums when they're planning to release Z370 Micro.


----------



## betaflame

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *gbates*
> 
> If you want LAN with teaming you could buy Taichi or even cheaper Gaming K6. Fatal1ty i7 pro costs extra because of 10Gbit LAN...


I would get one of the server grade NICs for your PCI-E instead... they're cheap as hell.


----------



## ranc1d

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *gbates*
> 
> If you want LAN with teaming you could buy Taichi or even cheaper Gaming K6. Fatal1ty i7 pro costs extra because of 10Gbit LAN...


Does the Fatal1ty have any additional oc potential over the k6 or essentially same? There are additional features the pro has and gaming 7 that have them on my short list.


----------



## drumsticks

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *betaflame*
> 
> Apparently search can't handle hyphens....
> 
> The Z370-G appears to be the only worthwhile MATX board?


Interested in this as well. @everybody else; is the Z370-G using the same VRMs as the Strix E/F? If I wanted to hopefully take a delidded 8700k to 5.1+ GHz, would those hold up?

I think some have commented that EVGA historically has used parts better than what is in the current Z370 Strix lineup, though. If that's true, the EVGA Z370 Micro could be the one to get (assuming you don't care about looks, which I personally don't. The motherboard itself is likely to be covered up by other parts in my loop/case anyways).

Anecdotally, one of EVGA's verified employees on their official subreddit said they built the Micro because it allowed them to build a more overclocking oriented board than they could have if they stuck with the ITX board. Take that as you will. I'm hoping we'll see a release in November, personally. (Edit: an employee on their sub stated they currently don't have an ETA).


----------



## roona

Looks like the Taichi still has LLC/VDroop issues. I'm running BIOS 1.17 (beta, 10/19/2017), voltage set to fixed/1.350, LLC 1 (1 is the highest LLC setting on these boards), and under load, board sensors are reading 1.296V and VID is reading 1.404V. I haven't verified with a multimeter yet, but for what it's worth, the same sensors are reading 1.344-1.360V at idle. Not sure how much VDroop is desired with these chips - I'd love to know if anyone has solid information about that.


----------



## Shadoww

So after reading all 44 pages I'm still a bit confused but I've narrowed down my choices to:

(1) Asrock Fata1ity K6 for $160
or
(2) Gigabyte Gaming 7 for $200

Which one would you guys buy? They both seem excellent judging by what people have said so far.

My goal is reach 5 ghz overclock on a 8700K. Right now I'm using a Noctua D15s air cooler and I probably won't delid or do anything extreme like LN2. I'm a simple guy.


----------



## aDyerSituation

So far from what I have seen the Fata1ity K6 seems like the best deal


----------



## Shadoww

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *aDyerSituation*
> 
> So far from what I have seen the Fata1ity K6 seems like the best deal


And I agree... but the Gigabyte Gaming 7 is $50 off at Microcenter. The normal price for the gaming 7 is $250. The fact that it's on a "sale" is really tempting me lol.


----------



## Ky0sHiR0

I got Gaming 7 and it's really ok motherboard.
In my country I spent 300 usd for it so 200 its really good price anyway.


----------



## [email protected]

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *roona*
> 
> Looks like the Taichi still has LLC/VDroop issues. I'm running BIOS 1.17 (beta, 10/19/2017), voltage set to fixed/1.350, LLC 1 (1 is the highest LLC setting on these boards), and under load, board sensors are reading 1.296V and VID is reading 1.404V. I haven't verified with a multimeter yet, but for what it's worth, the same sensors are reading 1.344-1.360V at idle. Not sure how much VDroop is desired with these chips - I'd love to know if anyone has solid information about that.


The role of Vdroop is to ensure that overshoot duration and magnitude does not breach guidelines. How little you can get away with depends on the capabilities of the circuit. From an overclocking only perspective, in a well-tuned circuit, Vcc will settle or will be stable enough at the target voltage before the processor goes into full load state. However, it is important to remember that what you see in software doesn't necessarily correlate with how well the VRM actually performs.


----------



## unkletom

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *roona*
> 
> Looks like the Taichi still has LLC/VDroop issues. I'm running BIOS 1.17 (beta, 10/19/2017), voltage set to fixed/1.350, LLC 1 (1 is the highest LLC setting on these boards), and under load, board sensors are reading 1.296V and VID is reading 1.404V. I haven't verified with a multimeter yet, but for what it's worth, the same sensors are reading 1.344-1.360V at idle. Not sure how much VDroop is desired with these chips - I'd love to know if anyone has solid information about that.


Extreme 4 got the bios update with vdroop fix where Taichi hasn't yet. Should be around the corner.


----------



## gbates

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ranc1d*
> 
> Does the Fatal1ty have any additional oc potential over the k6 or essentially same? There are additional features the pro has and gaming 7 that have them on my short list.


OC potential will be probably similar if you're not planning on delidding, I would go after features that you like on mb.


----------



## gbates

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Shadoww*
> 
> My goal is reach 5 ghz overclock on a 8700K. Right now I'm using a Noctua D15s air cooler and I probably won't delid or do anything extreme like LN2. I'm a simple guy.


Depending on silicon lottery and if you're planning to put a lot of stress on it for longer periods I'm not sure if air cooler will suffice for 5GHz OC.

Purepc.pl overclocked i7 to 5.1GHz at 1.325V and max temp with Crysis 3 was around 80C and it was on CLC cooling Enermax Liqtech 240...

https://www.purepc.pl/procesory/test_procesora_intel_core_i7_8700k_premiera_coffee_lake?page=0,22


----------



## Telstar

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ranc1d*
> 
> Does the Fatal1ty have any additional oc potential over the k6 or essentially same?


It has better vrm, yes. If you wanna save some money get the Taichi instead.
Extrrme 4 and K6 shares thr same pcb (which heats a bit near the vrm).
Taichi and fatality shares the same pcb and vrm.


----------



## roona

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *[email protected]*
> 
> The role of Vdroop is to ensure that overshoot duration and magnitude does not breach guidelines. How little you can get away with depends on the capabilities of the circuit. From an overclocking only perspective, in a well-tuned circuit, Vcc will settle or will be stable enough at the target voltage before the processor goes into full load state. However, it is important to remember that what you see in software doesn't necessarily correlate with how well the VRM actually performs.


Right, that makes perfect sense. I don't suppose there's any way we'd be able to calculate a board's capabilities as far as that goes? I have a basic understanding of physics, but I have no idea where I'd even start lol. The easiest way would probably be to just put an oscilloscope on it and test, right?


----------



## ranc1d

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Telstar*
> 
> It has better vrm, yes. If you wanna save some money get the Taichi instead.
> Extrrme 4 and K6 shares thr same pcb (which heats a bit near the vrm).
> Taichi and fatality shares the same pcb and vrm.


Thank you, exact info I needed.


----------



## WexleySnoops

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *gbates*
> 
> Depending on silicon lottery and if you're planning to put a lot of stress on it for longer periods I'm not sure if air cooler will suffice for 5GHz OC.
> 
> Purepc.pl overclocked i7 to 5.1GHz at 1.325V and max temp with Crysis 3 was around 80C and it was on CLC cooling Enermax Liqtech 240...
> 
> https://www.purepc.pl/procesory/test_procesora_intel_core_i7_8700k_premiera_coffee_lake?page=0,22


Some air coolers are better than AIOs, just depends on the cooler







, but yes, "cheap" air coolers will likely have issues with 5ghz


----------



## gbates

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AlphaC*
> 
> Some thermal shots from http://diy.pconline.com.cn/1017/10179400_2.html
> 
> (above) ASUS TUF Z370-PRO GAMING , roasting as expected
> 
> 
> (above) Gigabyte Gaming 5
> 
> 
> (above) MSI Pro Carbon
> 
> 
> (above) iGame Z370 VULCAN X
> 
> 
> (above) Biostar GT6
> 
> 
> (Above) Asrock Fatal1ty k6
> 
> Note an aircooler worth $15 (100 yuan) was used and the author theorizes the K6 was heating from the CPU using the PCB as heatsink, rather than mosfets/chokes/inductors:
> *Gigabyte Gaming 5 might be OK*


AlphaC,

is the link to thermal shots correct? I can't find those photos...


----------



## moustang

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *WexleySnoops*
> 
> Some air coolers are better than AIOs, just depends on the cooler
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> , but yes, "cheap" air coolers will likely have issues with 5ghz


Some air coolers are better than SOME AIOs.









AIOs have come a long way in recent years. Some of the high end AIOs out now rival many custom water cooling setups when it comes to cooling the CPU, and are far better than any air cooler on the market.


----------



## spddmn24

My gaming 7 hit around 60c on the vrm running realbench at 5.1ghz 1.29 vcore. I have an nh-d15 and top intake fans on my case so the heatsinks should be getting decent airflow. Max cpu temp was 67c I believe. VRM's were cool to the touch so I think its just a heat transfer issue. Has anyone tried different thermal pads yet? If so what thickness does it take?


----------



## RustySpoons

Which AIO are better these days? I've tried every Corsair model and gave up on them. Genuinely interested to know what's good.


----------



## PrimoGhost

Guys, is there any VRM sensor in Maximus Hero X and Formula X? T2 ( hw info ) definitiely isnt...


----------



## AlphaC

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Shadoww*
> 
> So after reading all 44 pages I'm still a bit confused but I've narrowed down my choices to:
> 
> (1) Asrock Fata1ity K6 for $160
> or
> (2) Gigabyte Gaming 7 for $200
> 
> Which one would you guys buy? They both seem excellent judging by what people have said so far.
> 
> My goal is reach 5 ghz overclock on a 8700K. Right now I'm using a Noctua D15s air cooler and I probably won't delid or do anything extreme like LN2. I'm a simple guy.


Thing with Gigabyte BIOS is it is more basic as far as the minor BIOS settings that people don't normally use. It's usable but more basic compared to say Asus/MSI. If you look at reviews the good ones usually have BIOS pictures.

The MSI has been greatly improved since Z97 era. It's about on par with ASUS' BIOs.

Asrock BIOS usually for people have have patience to tweak things. It's undeniable that sometimes there's quirks to it.

If all you need is a 5GHz overclock, likely anything midrange will achieve it. Give them some air over VRM if needed.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *gbates*
> 
> AlphaC,
> 
> is the link to thermal shots correct? I can't find those photos...


It was correct but I think the review was moved. I think it's been mirrored at ifeng or somewhere. (http://tech.ifeng.com/a/20171025/44728408_0.shtml)
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *spddmn24*
> 
> My gaming 7 hit around 60c on the vrm running realbench at 5.1ghz 1.29 vcore. I have an nh-d15 and top intake fans on my case so the heatsinks should be getting decent airflow. Max cpu temp was 67c I believe. VRM's were cool to the touch so I think its just a heat transfer issue. Has anyone tried different thermal pads yet? If so what thickness does it take?


You shouldn't be heating them up with 1.3V and Realbench. Realbench isn't an AVX/AVX2 heavy benchmark AFAIK.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RustySpoons*
> 
> Which AIO are better these days? I've tried every Corsair model and gave up on them. Genuinely interested to know what's good.


Swiftech H220 x2 , Swiftech H240 x 2, Swiftech H320 x2 , Alphacool Eisberg 420 , Alphacool Eisberg 240 ... all have copper radiators. The Swiftech stuff has a stronger pump so I'd get that ; there's a "Prestige" version with better fittings (compression fittings instead of barbed) and better fans (Noiseblocker eloop instead of swiftech helix).

Edit: eisbaer not eisberg (older) . Be quiet silent loop is more or less the same thing.


----------



## spddmn24

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AlphaC*
> 
> You shouldn't be heating them up with 1.3V and Realbench. Realbench isn't an AVX/AVX2 heavy benchmark AFAIK.


I'm not worried about 60c in realbench since this is just a gaming rig, but if a simple pad swap lowers temps noticeably it would help ease my temp OCD issue.







My maximus ix hero only hit mid 40's with a 7700k for comparison so the vrm cooling is definitely sub par on this board.


----------



## lb_felipe

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AlphaC*
> 
> Thing with Gigabyte BIOS is it is more basic as far as the minor BIOS settings that people don't normally use. It's usable but more basic compared to say Asus/MSI. If you look at reviews the good ones usually have BIOS pictures.
> 
> The MSI has been greatly improved since Z97 era. It's about on par with ASUS' BIOs.
> 
> Asrock BIOS usually for people have have patience to tweak things. It's undeniable that sometimes there's quirks to it.
> 
> If all you need is a 5GHz overclock, likely anything midrange will achieve it. Give them some air over VRM if needed.
> It was correct but I think the review was moved. I think it's been mirrored at ifeng or somewhere. (http://tech.ifeng.com/a/20171025/44728408_0.shtml)
> You shouldn't be heating them up with 1.3V and Realbench. Realbench isn't an AVX/AVX2 heavy benchmark AFAIK.
> Swiftech H220 x2 , Swiftech H240 x 2, Swiftech H320 x2 , Alphacool Eisberg 420 , Alphacool Eisberg 240 ... all have copper radiators. The Swiftech stuff has a stronger pump so I'd get that ; there's a "Prestige" version with better fittings (compression fittings instead of barbed) and better fans (Noiseblocker eloop instead of swiftech helix).


Is be quiet! Silent Loop any good?

Noise-wise, what air/water cooler/AIO cooler do you recommend for i7-8700K @ 5GHz?


----------



## ZeusFede

Hey guys , what motherboard did u think is better for a 8600k for easy ocing ( so what have better VRM , DualBios if possible , rgb and not too much ) around 200usd ...

Asrock Extreme 4 , Asrock Fatality K6 , MSI Gaming Pro Carbon or Gigabyte Gaming 5 ? Thanks


----------



## catacavaco

Z370I Strix owner here, board cannot keep up with more than 120W cpu power, which kinda corroborate the 20A per phase max,

https://www.reddit.com/r/overclocking/comments/78ulhk/vid_to_power_long_power_duration_and_thermal/
A post from myself, trying to figure out what was the problem, tl;dr -> vrm overheating

6 phases could have been enough for kaby in the past @5ghz, not enough for coffee now, thanks obama


----------



## AlphaC

catacavaco , did you increase current limit in the BIOS & put an AVX offset of -200MHz or -300MHz?

The mosfets used have a 20A hard limit (package limit) so obviously they will shut down regardless of cooling when you pass 20A per phase. The VRM heatsink is minimal as well.

https://www.hardwareinside.de/asus-rog-strix-z370-i-gaming-das-kleine-monster-28486/4/


http://bibo.coolpc.tw/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=70&t=243669&start=0&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&sid=c495e9e6c12b64a7dc3113212b7432e6


from datasheet



* The datasheet is based on 1.2V

Also please be aware that the SiRA12dp on the ASUS STRIX-E/F also have a 25A package limit. It's just that you are far less likely to hit it with 8 phases and a larger heatsink.


----------



## moustang

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AlphaC*
> 
> Swiftech H220 x2 , Swiftech H240 x 2, Swiftech H320 x2 , Alphacool Eisberg 420 , Alphacool Eisberg 240 ... all have copper radiators. The Swiftech stuff has a stronger pump so I'd get that ; there's a "Prestige" version with better fittings (compression fittings instead of barbed) and better fans (Noiseblocker eloop instead of swiftech helix).
> 
> Edit: eisbaer not eisberg (older) . Be quiet silent loop is more or less the same thing.


And don't forget some of the EK coolers. Yeah, they are "some assembly required", but they're complete water cooler kits, some priced the same as the more mainstream AIOs.


----------



## lb_felipe

Is any microATX Z370 board good?

If so, which ones?

Which is better between ROG STRIX Z370-G GAMING (WI-FI AC) and MSI Z370M GAMING PRO AC?


----------



## Techhog

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *catacavaco*
> 
> Z370I Strix owner here, board cannot keep up with more than 120W cpu power, which kinda corroborate the 20A per phase max,
> 
> https://www.reddit.com/r/overclocking/comments/78ulhk/vid_to_power_long_power_duration_and_thermal/
> A post from myself, trying to figure out what was the problem, tl;dr -> vrm overheating
> 
> 6 phases could have been enough for kaby in the past @5ghz, not enough for coffee now, thanks obama


How the hell could you be hitting 190W with those settings?


----------



## AlphaC

Prime95 Small FFT , no AVX offset

I've seen some sites get 190W reported in the XTU software. http://www.overclock.net/t/1638955/z370-z390-vrm-discussion-thread/290#post_26403955
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *lb_felipe*
> 
> Is any microATX Z370 board good?
> 
> If so, which ones?
> 
> Which is better between ROG STRIX Z370-G GAMING (WI-FI AC) and MSI Z370M GAMING PRO AC?


Not sure. Depends on if the Asus board is using the Onsemi parts or the Vishay SiRA12dp parts package limited to 25A.


----------



## drumsticks

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AlphaC*
> 
> Prime95 Small FFT , no AVX offset
> 
> I've seen some sites get 190W reported in the XTU software. http://www.overclock.net/t/1638955/z370-z390-vrm-discussion-thread/290#post_26403955
> Not sure. Depends on if the Asus board is using the Onsemi parts or the Vishay SiRA12dp parts package limited to 25A.


How many phases are there on the Z370-G? I think I remember reading 8, but I can't find that actually quoted somewhere. I guess that would make it 8 @ 25A each or 8 @ 20A each?


----------



## AlphaC

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *drumsticks*
> 
> How many phases are there on the Z370-G? I think I remember reading 8, but I can't find that actually quoted somewhere. I guess that would make it 8 @ 25A each or 8 @ 20A each?


At normal power (i.e. below 190W) outputs they're essentially the same. (should be 4 doubled to 8 , with 2 phases for non-CPU stuff)

The ONsemi 4C09N+4C06N doesn't have a package limit that low when you have a heatsink on it. (look at theta J C instead of JA)


Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!








MSI's


Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!








The educated guess on the Z370-G is based off both Z270-G and the STRIX Z370-E/F

Update for the MSI boards, found some datasheets

Ubiq QN3103
http://www.ubiq-semi.com/en-article-upi-663-1917#
rise time = 43ns (typical, not max ... very slow) , fall time = 6ns at V_GS = 10V
R_DS(on) = 6.3mΩ @ V_S=10V , 9mΩ @V_GS=4.5V

Ubiq QN3107
http://www.ubiq-semi.com/en-article-upi-663-1916#
rise time = 44.6ns (typical , not max), fall time = 6.1ns at V_GS = 10V
R_DS(on) = 2.6mΩ @ V_GS=10V ; 3.8mΩ @ V_GS = 4.5V


----------



## catacavaco

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AlphaC*
> 
> catacavaco , did you increase current limit in the BIOS & put an AVX offset of -200MHz or -300MHz?
> 
> The mosfets used have a 20A hard limit (package limit) so obviously they will shut down regardless of cooling when you pass 20A per phase. The VRM heatsink is minimal as well.
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.hardwareinside.de/asus-rog-strix-z370-i-gaming-das-kleine-monster-28486/4/
> 
> 
> http://bibo.coolpc.tw/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=70&t=243669&start=0&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&sid=c495e9e6c12b64a7dc3113212b7432e6
> 
> 
> from datasheet
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> * The datasheet is based on 1.2V
> 
> Also please be aware that the SiRA12dp on the ASUS STRIX-E/F also have a 25A package limit. It's just that you are far less likely to hit it with 8 phases and a larger heatsink.


No AVX offset, i wanted to achieve a max stable oc with no offsets.
all current limits for the cpu are maxed out, VRM switching frequency is set to the minimum 250Khz, all spread spectrum options disabled, LLC 3

I am now going from 4.3 till 5.0, measuring the peak wattage on the cpu package before shutdown to have a more solid view on the VRM behaviour.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Techhog*
> 
> How the hell could you be hitting 190W with those settings?


Prime95 AVX + Small FFT

Again i know this peak comsuptuon generated by Prime95 AVX is not realistic, and that even while gaming or whatever, it will never go above 120-140w
But still a valid piece of info for the people purchasing this motherboard and willing to overclock it to the max (which is kinda not the point of an ITX board and it is my fault for overlooking the specs) and also a little bit ASUS fault, cmon, 6phase on a 200 euro board







, shouldve went matx asrock instead


----------



## bloot

My Z370 Strix-F vrm temps while running IBT on very high at 4.8GHz 1.184V

Front


Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!







Back


Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!


----------



## Exilon

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AlphaC*
> 
> Prime95 Small FFT , no AVX offset
> 
> I've seen some sites get 190W reported in the XTU software. http://www.overclock.net/t/1638955/z370-z390-vrm-discussion-thread/290#post_26403955


From what I've seen package power readouts in XTU and HWinfo are too low from based on the idle-load delta at the wall.

Here's my 5.0GHz with no AVX offset @ 1.39V

Wall meter (w/80 Plus Titanium PSU)
Idle: 68W
Load: 280W (x264)
Load: 400W (smallFTT w/FMA) !!!

XTU/HWinfo:
Idle: 10W
Load: 140W (x264)
Load: 195W (smallFFT w/FMA)

Two takeaways:

1) Don't run smallFFT FMA on these CPUs. Just don't...
2) Package power reads low by 33%. Did someone forget that there are 50% more cores?


----------



## catacavaco

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Exilon*
> 
> From what I've seen package power readouts in XTU and HWinfo are too low from based on the idle-load delta at the wall.
> 
> Here's my 5.0GHz with no AVX offset @ 1.39V
> 
> Wall meter (w/80 Plus Titanium PSU)
> Idle: 68W
> Load: 280W (x264)
> Load: 400W (smallFTT w/FMA) !!!
> 
> XTU/HWinfo:
> Idle: 10W
> Load: 140W (x264)
> Load: 195W (smallFFT w/FMA)
> 
> Two takeaways:
> 
> 1) Don't run smallFFT FMA on these CPUs. Just don't...
> 2) Package power reads low by 33%. Did someone forget that there are 50% more cores?


But HWInfo/XTU give you the power readout for the processor only, your wall meter measures you entire systems comsumption and then i think you have to factor psu efficiency + AC/DC losses on the psu, then DC/DC losses for the VRM.


----------



## roona

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Exilon*
> 
> From what I've seen package power readouts in XTU and HWinfo are too low from based on the idle-load delta at the wall.
> 
> Here's my 5.0GHz with no AVX offset @ 1.39V
> 
> Wall meter (w/80 Plus Titanium PSU)
> Idle: 68W
> Load: 280W (x264)
> Load: 400W (smallFTT w/FMA) !!!
> 
> XTU/HWinfo:
> Idle: 10W
> Load: 140W (x264)
> Load: 195W (smallFFT w/FMA)
> 
> Two takeaways:
> 
> 1) Don't run smallFFT FMA on these CPUs. Just don't...
> 2) Package power reads low by 33%. Did someone forget that there are 50% more cores?


Your package power seems to be reading rather low. I'm running lower voltage and core speeds than you, and getting higher package power readings.

For reference, my 8700K at 4.9, 1.328V (reported by board sensors, as LLC on my board is broken atm), 3 AVX offset, Prime95 29.3 small FFT will report a package power of 240W @ 4.6, 95C (just barely not thermal throttling).

Assuming 85% efficiency through the power supply and VRMs, that puts your CPU at 280W delta, so roughly 300W load draw, which seems pretty reasonable compared to my package power readings. I think it's just your sensors that aren't reading right.

Besides, did we really ever expect Coffeelake to not pull 300W+ overclocked in P95 FMA? Let's be real, Kaby did >200W under similar conditions, slap two more cores on it and how can you expect a similarly clocked chip to not hit 300W? That's why we're all in this thread looking for boards with strong VRMs.


----------



## jellybeans69

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kd5151*
> 
> RIP ASUS TUF.


I like to live dangerously







Air cooling/some 12 cm fans / TUF board


----------



## plant

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *catacavaco*
> 
> Again i know this peak comsuptuon generated by Prime95 AVX is not realistic, and that even while gaming or whatever, it will never go above 120-140w
> But still a valid piece of info for the people purchasing this motherboard and willing to overclock it to the max (which is kinda not the point of an ITX board and it is my fault for overlooking the specs) and also a little bit ASUS fault, cmon, 6phase on a 200 euro board
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> , shouldve went matx asrock instead


My Z370-F shuts off as well. 8700k 5ghz 1.4v. Can handle any other stress test for 8+ hours like a champ. But after about a minute of P95 smallFFT, it shuts off. It will complete one pass (successfully) and then will shut off when the next pass begins. Over current protection is on "auto". Not sure I even want to mess with it since this load is so artificial.


----------



## unkletom

Strix series have a high price for what you're getting. I'd return it, wouldn't waste hours trying to find a tweak in Bios thats highly unlikely.

If you really want Asus and want to do serious overclocking, you need to spend $280 to $400 in their range.


----------



## AlphaC

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bloot*
> 
> My Z370 Strix-F vrm temps while running IBT on very high at 4.8GHz 1.184V
> 
> Front
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Back
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!


What do you get with AIDA64 and OCCT? How long did you stress it?

x265 is AVX too as far as I know.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *catacavaco*
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!
> 
> 
> 
> No AVX offset, i wanted to achieve a max stable oc with no offsets.
> all current limits for the cpu are maxed out, VRM switching frequency is set to the minimum 250Khz, all spread spectrum options disabled, LLC 3
> 
> I am now going from 4.3 till 5.0, measuring the peak wattage on the cpu package before shutdown to have a more solid view on the VRM behaviour.
> Prime95 AVX + Small FFT
> 
> 
> 
> Again i know this peak comsuptuon generated by Prime95 AVX is not realistic, and that even while gaming or whatever, it will never go above 120-140w
> But still a valid piece of info for the people purchasing this motherboard and willing to overclock it to the max (which is kinda not the point of an ITX board and it is my fault for overlooking the specs) and also a little bit ASUS fault, cmon, 6phase on a 200 euro board
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> , shouldve went matx asrock instead


It's also unrealistic to expect an 17x17cm ITX board with a dinky heatsink with no heatpipe and little fin area to dissipate the same heat as an 30.5x24.4cm ATX board with a heatpipe.


----------



## bloot

IBT very high test takes around 11-12 minutes to complete at 4.8GHz, those are the max temps I got during that test. I'll try Aida64 and OCCT too and post results, but in my experience ITB on very high is the most demanding test of the three.


----------



## bloot

@AlphaC

Aida64 stress test running for ~25 minutes


Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!







Idle temps

front


Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!







back


Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!







Load temps

front


Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!







back


Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!







I tried my best to measure the hottest spot.

Edit

Ambient temp was 25ºC


----------



## unkletom

Still running OCCT so far stable at 5.2 ghz @ 1.36v first try. I'll lower vcore after an hour of test. Really liking this Asrock Z370 extreme 4 mobo.


----------



## moustang

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *unkletom*
> 
> Still running OCCT so far stable at 5.2 ghz @ 1.36v first try. I'll lower vcore after an hour of test. Really liking this Asrock Z370 extreme 4 mobo.


Those are some warm idle temps there. But 5.2GHZ and mid 70C range under load is great.


----------



## AlphaC

http://www.tweakpc.de/hardware/tests/mainboards/gigabyte_z370_aorus_gaming_7/s04.php
Prime95 Gigabyte Gaming 7 board



95 at chokes , overclocked at 5GHz 1.392V
Quote:


> With harder overclocking with high voltages, the temperatures of the voltage transformers increase significantly, whereupon the additional cooler on the I / O shield also switches on. Pointy arise here temperatures of about 95 degrees. The temperature is still relatively uncritical, as the coils on the FP1007R3-R15 board are specified up to 125 degrees.


Gigabyte HD3P layout

https://hk.xfastest.com/2326/gigabyte-z370-hd3p-review/

Z370-A prime , can't make out mosfets


http://ichip.ru/asus-prime-z370-a-kofe-i-diskoteka.html


----------



## GBT-MatthewH

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AlphaC*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.tweakpc.de/hardware/tests/mainboards/gigabyte_z370_aorus_gaming_7/s04.php
> Prime95 Gigabyte Gaming 7 board
> 
> 
> 
> 95 at chokes , overclocked at 5GHz 1.392V


95c shouldn't be an issue, but lower is better right? It looks like they used the 5GHz profile in the BIOS... That's a totally viable way to do it, however for this forum/crowd I would expect most people set their OC manually. You should be able to lower that Vcore. Just food for thought.


----------



## unkletom

Asrock z370 extreme4 is a budget priced beast. Running stable on 5.2 ghz @ 1.37v and Gskill 3866 ram is running on 4133 mhz. (couldn't even run it on 3866mhz on z270 strix)

https://valid.x86.fr/yc1ugt


----------



## catacavaco




----------



## RustySpoons

So I turn up home after a week and a half working in London and there is a Gigabyte Aorus Gaming 7 here.
I did cancel the order but they couldn't do it in time so it turned up at where I collect my parcels.

I can send it back, but as its here I dunno what to do, keep it or go for the Hero X!


----------



## AlphaC

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *catacavaco*
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xbLeuxIzxcA


In the comments , re: VRM temp:
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *https://www.youtube.com/user/der8auer*
> MSI 100-105 °C at 5.1 GHz and GIGABYTE about 120 °C at 5.0 GHz. Couldnt read out on asus and asrock﻿


Just because you can doesn't mean you should. But I find it a poor choice by all manufacturers with all the prospective warranty claims they'll be getting. If the VRM is hitting 120°F it ought to start throttling.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *unkletom*
> 
> Asrock z370 extreme4 is a budget priced beast. Running stable on 5.2 ghz @ 1.37v and Gskill 3866 ram is running on 4133 mhz. (couldn't even run it on 3866mhz on z270 strix)
> 
> https://valid.x86.fr/yc1ugt


What's the VRM temp like?

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RustySpoons*
> 
> So I turn up home after a week and a half working in London and there is a Gigabyte Aorus Gaming 7 here.
> I did cancel the order but they couldn't do it in time so it turned up at where I collect my parcels.
> 
> I can send it back, but as its here I dunno what to do, keep it or go for the Hero X!


I don't know, you seem to be really passionate about the ROG Hero X. Maybe you should buy it.

Just be aware as mentioned before, if you want to clock memory higher than Taichi it likely isn't happening. That's about it.


----------



## unkletom

I assume TMPIN5 is VRM? Otherwise no idea what my VRM temps are.


----------



## atx7

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AlphaC*
> 
> The Pro Gaming i7 is a poor value because you don't gain anything in terms of VRM (some sightings of the Sinopower SM7341 instead of Fairchild parts too) , the shroud over the VRM heatsink likely makes it hotter than the Taichi, and 10Gbps LAN is useless for most people.


I got my ASRock Fatal1ty Z370 Professional Gaming i7 and have put most parts in. The memory VRM is definitely *Fairchild 5030SG*. And if your theory of same memory and cpu VRM's for ASRock Z370 is true, it should be Fairchild for cpu aswell. Is there any way I can confirm without removing my parts and VRM heatsink?


----------



## AlphaC

I read a review with Sinopower memory VRM so I don't know what to think anymore.




http://www.gdm.or.jp/review/2017/1028/240195/3/

& another Fairchild


Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!








https://tony1316tony1316.blogspot.kr/2017/10/asrock-z370-taichi.html

Gigabyte Z370 Gaming 5 REVIEW finally












http://quasarzone.co.kr/bbs/board.php?bo_table=qc_qsz&wr_id=107235

surprising it doesn't use SiRa12 , it's 4c06n low side + 4c10n high side

It's really disappointing that this VRM design wasn't extended to the Ultra Gaming , the wifi alone would be enough of a differentiation between SKUs. The savings on BCLK chip , 3rd M.2, wifi , and RGB heatsink with heatpipe should more than offset the cost of 4 inductors.

As it uses a heatpipe heatsink but is hampered by the RGB LED plastic stuff, I'll leave it where it is. It shouldn't be lower than the STRIX-E.

Gigabyte HD3


Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!








http://playwares.com/pcreview/55597000

Gaming 7 , 5GHz 1.4V in Linx = 62°C

http://jaystorys.tistory.com/entry/%EA%B8%B0%EA%B0%80%EB%B0%94%EC%9D%B4%ED%8A%B8-Z370-Gaming7-%EA%B3%BC-8700k

STRIX-E CPU testing

http://wjdqh6544.tistory.com/238 , probably copied from *http://quasarzone.co.kr/bbs/board.php?bo_table=qc_qsz&wr_id=102002&sca=CPU*

* Jonsbo CR-201 = 4 x6mm heatpipe 135W TDP rated 120mm fan cooler

STRIX-E confirmation Sira12

http://quasarzone.co.kr/bbs/board.php?bo_table=qc_qsz&wr_id=103299

MSI Godlike confirmation IR3555
http://quasarzone.co.kr/bbs/board.php?bo_table=qc_qsz&wr_id=105788

Gaming 7 confirmation http://quasarzone.co.kr/bbs/board.php?bo_table=qc_qsz&wr_id=103014


----------



## roona

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AlphaC*
> 
> I read a review with Sinopower memory VRM so I don't know what to think anymore.


Seems like there are two versions of most of these Asrock boards (Extreme4, K6, Professional, and maybe Taichi?). One with Sinopower fets, the other with Fairchild. For what it's worth, I got a Taichi with Fairchild on the memory and under the CPU VRM heatsinks.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *unkletom*
> 
> I assume TMPIN5 is VRM? Otherwise no idea what my VRM temps are.


When I asked Asrock if the Taichi had VRM temperature sensors available, they told me that none of their Z370 boards do.


----------



## ZaknafeinGR

Sorry, just to be clear, is the Gaming 5 better because it has 4c06n+4c10n instead of SiRa12 or are those similar/equivalent? I already bit the bullet and went for it instead of the Strix-E for other reasons (dual bios mostly + debug led and perhaps nonsensical brand loyalty), but I'd like to know if power delivery is better as well.
Also is it just me or is it lacking a BIOS switch? Couldn't find one in the pictures.


----------



## ottoore

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *unkletom*
> 
> I assume TMPIN5 is VRM? Otherwise no idea what my VRM temps are.


Stop using Hwmonitor and you will find out.


----------



## Rocca

Unkletom could you paste some more of your bios settings with that OC(llc etc.)?
I am OC noob and i own the same mobo. I would like to get into 5ghz range(actually i would be happy with 5ghz OC) and it would be nice to have something to compare.


----------



## unkletom

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Rocca*
> 
> Unkletom could you paste some more of your bios settings with that OC(llc etc.)?
> I am OC noob and i own the same mobo. I would like to get into 5ghz range(actually i would be happy with 5ghz OC) and it would be nice to have something to compare.


Did you update bios to latest? https://www.asrock.com/MB/Intel/Z370%20Extreme4/index.asp#BIOS

There isn't many settings in this Asrock bios but the main thing is that LLC 2-5 is bad and you get huge vdroop. So you need to set to LLC Level 1 which works fine.
For 5 ghz start with 1.35v fixed vcore.


----------



## RustySpoons

Well I didn't even get as far as putting a CPU in the Aorus Gaming 7, looked cheap and tacky, Gigabyte still using cheap and nasty supervisor/super IO IC's and poor quality connectors and sockets throughout the board. I'd say AsRock are quite a step above Gigabyte lately in terms of quality.


----------



## czin125

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RustySpoons*
> 
> So I turn up home after a week and a half working in London and there is a Gigabyte Aorus Gaming 7 here.
> I did cancel the order but they couldn't do it in time so it turned up at where I collect my parcels.
> 
> I can send it back, but as its here I dunno what to do, keep it or go for the Hero X!


Do you only have 2x8GB? Why not get the Apex instead? Possibly lower mv than the Hero + lower timings.


----------



## Ky0sHiR0

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RustySpoons*
> 
> Well I didn't even get as far as putting a CPU in the Aorus Gaming 7, looked cheap and tacky, Gigabyte still using cheap and nasty supervisor/super IO IC's and poor quality connectors and sockets throughout the board. I'd say AsRock are quite a step above Gigabyte lately in terms of quality.


Cheapy, Cheapy, Nasty, Nasty, Tacky, Tacky

5,2 GHz , 1,31 V max mostly 1,287 V (adaptive voltage)

https://i.imgur.com/C9HnZeZ.jpg

Cinebench 1710 points
Realbench only fast 3xbenchmark


----------



## Rocca

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *unkletom*
> 
> Did you update bios to latest? https://www.asrock.com/MB/Intel/Z370%20Extreme4/index.asp#BIOS
> 
> There isn't many settings in this Asrock bios but the main thing is that LLC 2-5 is bad and you get huge vdroop. So you need to set to LLC Level 1 which works fine.
> For 5 ghz start with 1.35v fixed vcore.


You mean beta bios 1.11 or 1.10? And no i didn't update it yet.
Ok i will try that and see what will happen


----------



## drwolf

What cheap matx or itx board to get for overcloking?
ASRock Z370M Pro4
MSI Z370M Mortar
Gigabyte Z370M D3H
Maybe MSI Z370I Gaming Pro Carbon AC?
Or should I invest more and get ASUS ROG STRIX Z370-I Gaming?


----------



## winter2

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AlphaC*
> 
> surprising it doesn't use SiRa12 , it's 4c06n low side + 4c10n high side
> It's really disappointing that this VRM design wasn't extended to the Ultra Gaming , the wifi alone would be enough of a differentiation between SKUs. The savings on BCLK chip , 3rd M.2, wifi , and RGB heatsink with heatpipe should more than offset the cost of 4 inductors.
> As it uses a heatpipe heatsink but is hampered by the RGB LED plastic stuff, I'll leave it where it is. It shouldn't be lower than the STRIX-E.


Now when you know the details about gaming 5 can you compare it with different boards (asus,msi,asrock) to know which boards are better than this one and which are worse in terms of VRM.

btw how many power phases is it using ?

thanks


----------



## RustySpoons

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *czin125*
> 
> Do you only have 2x8GB? Why not get the Apex instead? Possibly lower mv than the Hero + lower timings.


No DDR4 ram here atm, I've got about 50 sticks of bloody DDR3!, need to get some DDR4 in, well I do have DDR4 but all SODIMM sadly.

The Apex isn't available here and also EATX won't fit in my case.


----------



## AlphaC

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ZaknafeinGR*
> 
> Sorry, just to be clear, is the Gaming 5 better because it has 4c06n+4c10n instead of SiRa12 or are those similar/equivalent? I already bit the bullet and went for it instead of the Strix-E for other reasons (dual bios mostly + debug led and perhaps nonsensical brand loyalty), but I'd like to know if power delivery is better as well.
> Also is it just me or is it lacking a BIOS switch? Couldn't find one in the pictures.


Gigabyte doesn't have dual BIOs switch this z370 generation. They added some sort of RGB switch instead









The typical STRIX-E is _roughly_ on par. You get Dual BIOS + Debug LED + more RGB by going with Gigabyte









If you go by V_GS=10V or V_GS=4.5V (more lossy) and sane power outputs below 220W , they're more or less equal with 90% efficiency at V_GS=10V but dropping to around 87-88% at V_GS=4.5V. The 4c10N is faster than 4c09 used on the ASUS z270-A & Z370-A but slower than the STRIX's Sira14dp.

_V_GS or gate source voltage basically determines the voltage required to turn mosfet. Each mosfet is basically a switch._

The reason I'd call it a tossup depending on airflow is because the heatsinks used on the STRIX have more surface area but Gigabyte G5 has a heatpipe. The heatpipe transfers the heat between the two heatsinks and if you aren't using the iGPU then the CPU phases can make use of the heatsink at the top of the board.

If the Gigabyte board had better VRM cooling it could handle more amperage since it's not package limited to 25A by the SiRA12dp.

Given the Chinese review pitting the Gaming 5 vs the K6 and Pro Carbon , both with more efficient VRM I'd say there's less to worry about unless you push AVX workloads such as x265. The z370 Gaming 5 is a copy-paste job of the z270x Gaming 5 essentially but with a RGB heatsink.

It's not like the Taichi / K6 situation where in theory the supposedly 10 phase with higher efficiency (the Fairchild + Sinopower dual-N mosfets have 92% at V_GS=10V but Sinopower sm7341 drops to 90% at V_GS=4.5V) is also spread between two heatsinks via heatpipe.

I believe MSI tried harder this time to deliver better VRM (they dropped the PK616BA NIKOS mosfet completely and went from 6 CPU phases to 8), but Asrock is the midrange standout due to the K6 pricepoint in most western markets.

Tl; DR:
If your load is below 220W or so , then the STRIX and Gigabyte Gaming 5 boards are more or less equal.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *winter2*
> 
> Now when you know the details about gaming 5 can you compare it with different boards (asus,msi,asrock) to know which boards are better than this one and which are worse in terms of VRM.
> 
> btw how many power phases is it using ?
> 
> thanks


4 doubled to 8.

We can't really compare without knowing the properties of the heatsinks, but to break it down for midrange below $250 , assuming around 130A and 1.4V (about 180W):
At V_GS=4.5V values , Asrock Fairchild (92%) > Asrock Sinopower (90%) > MSI Onsemi (~89%) > Asus Z370-A Onsemi (88%) > Gigabyte Onsemi (87%)~ STRIX E/F Sira12dp (87%) > MSI Ubiq (no V_GS=4.5 values)
At V_GS=10V values , Asrock Fairchild (92%) ~ Asrock Sinopower (92%) > MSI Onsemi (~91%) > Asus Z370-A Onsemi (90%) ~ Gigabyte Onsemi (90%) ~ STRIX E/F Sira12dp (90%) > MSI Ubiq (89%)


Spoiler: Temp estimate based on max thermal resistance



Asrock Fairchild ~ 62°C (low side , but doesn't matter since dual channel)
Asrock Sinopower ~ 81°C (both)
MSI Onsemi ~81°C (high side)
Asus/Gigabyte Onsemi ~ 89°C (low side)
Asrock high+low side Sinopower on Killer SLI ~ 90°C (lowside)
Asus Vishay Sira12dp ~114°C (low side)
MSI Ubiq ~127°C (high side)...

_Without knowing the thermal resistance of the thermal pads used and heatsink, this is a rough estimate_ The Ubiq fets are sometimes used on GPU and the thermal resistance is substantially lower with a heatsink compared to the Onsemi parts.We're talking about 4°C/W for Onsemi , Sinopower SM4336, & Vishay Sira12dp parts vs about 2.5°C/W for the Ubiq.


----------



## Telstar

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RustySpoons*
> 
> So I turn up home after a week and a half working in London and there is a Gigabyte Aorus Gaming 7 here.
> I did cancel the order but they couldn't do it in time so it turned up at where I collect my parcels.
> 
> I can send it back, but as its here I dunno what to do, keep it or go for the Hero X!


Keep it. Unless you got a bad sample with finky vrm heatsinks (get an IT thermometer), it's a better board than the hero.


----------



## ZaknafeinGR

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AlphaC*
> 
> Gigabyte doesn't have dual BIOs switch this z370 generation. They added some sort of RGB switch instead
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The typical STRIX-E is _roughly_ on par. You get Dual BIOS + Debug LED + more RGB by going with Gigabyte
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks for the extensive reply, I'm definitely not going to run my 8700K 24/7 at 1.4V, so it should be alright, plus my build will be entirely air-cooled so there will be plenty of airflow around the VRM heatsinks and the heatpipe will do some work, no doubt.
It just really bugs me they ditched all the switches, my Z87X-OC has like a ton of them, even for PCI-E slots, plus some other goodies, I'm kinda miffed a board that is 40-50 Eur more expensive is lacking so much, are the M.2 slots that expensive or is it the chipset itself that raises the cost that much, because I can't see anything else that justifies the price bump, I mean it's in X299 territory almost.


----------



## pion

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Telstar*
> 
> Keep it. Unless you got a bad sample with finky vrm heatsinks (get an IT thermometer), it's a better board than the hero.


Is this why?

Gaming 7:
5Ghx @1.26V

X Hero:
5Ghz @1.31V

Is this difference in voltage due to the extra VRM's in the gaming 7?
or is it something else? I know nothing about these things









https://overclock3d.net/reviews/cpu_mainboard/asus_z370_maximus_x_hero_review/5
https://overclock3d.net/reviews/cpu_mainboard/gigabyte_z370_aorus_gaming_7_review/2


----------



## RustySpoons

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Telstar*
> 
> Keep it. Unless you got a bad sample with finky vrm heatsinks (get an IT thermometer), it's a better board than the hero.


What's better about this over the Hero? Serious question as I was under the impression the Hero was better.


----------



## Telstar

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *pion*
> 
> Is this why?
> 
> Gaming 7:
> 5Ghx @1.26V
> 
> X Hero:
> 5Ghz @1.31V
> 
> Is this difference in voltage due to the extra VRM's in the gaming 7?
> or is it something else? I know nothing about these things
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://overclock3d.net/reviews/cpu_mainboard/asus_z370_maximus_x_hero_review/5
> https://overclock3d.net/reviews/cpu_mainboard/gigabyte_z370_aorus_gaming_7_review/2


It could be.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RustySpoons*
> 
> What's better about this over the Hero? Serious question as I was under the impression the Hero was better.


Asus has better uefi bios, better looks (feels higher quality in hands). But yes the gaming 7 has a stronger power delivery.
If you want the best of both worlds wait for the Apex.


----------



## RustySpoons

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Telstar*
> 
> It could be.
> Asus has better uefi bios, better looks (feels higher quality in hands). But yes the gaming 7 has a stronger power delivery.
> If you want the best of both worlds wait for the Apex.


But EATX is no good for me sadly.
VRM temps are a bit concerning on the Gaming 7, plus the fact that they put a cooling fan there. Also stupid RGB everywhere. What is with that. Will be electronically noisy. RFI everywhere.


----------



## e-gate

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RustySpoons*
> 
> But EATX is no good for me sadly.
> VRM temps are a bit concerning on the Gaming 7, plus the fact that they put a cooling fan there. Also stupid RGB everywhere. What is with that. Will be electronically noisy. RFI everywhere.


MSI has LEDs, Asrock has LEDS, Asus has as well and so does Gigabyte. Gigabyte did it right for me I only don't like the robotic heatsinks and their ugly UEFI. It's nice to have them for aesthetic reasons when you combine them with a nice TG case and other RGB components. As for noise well there are other far more noisy components inside a case. I don't see how they could create a problem.
The only thing that worries me somehow is that it appears from the photos that the sound chip is not shielded. Unless that long cover works as a shield. All motherboards come with shielded sound chip.


----------



## czin125

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RustySpoons*
> 
> But EATX is no good for me sadly.


What case? Already have it ?


----------



## RustySpoons

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *czin125*
> 
> What case? Already have it ?


S340 NZXT


----------



## RustySpoons

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *e-gate*
> 
> MSI has LEDs, Asrock has LEDS, Asus has as well and so does Gigabyte. Gigabyte did it right for me I only don't like the robotic heatsinks and their ugly UEFI. It's nice to have them for aesthetic reasons when you combine them with a nice TG case and other RGB components. As for noise well there are other far more noisy components inside a case. I don't see how they could create a problem.
> The only thing that worries me somehow is that it appears from the photos that the sound chip is not shielded. Unless that long cover works as a shield. All motherboards come with shielded sound chip.


Lot's of issues with RGB lighting causing RFI, probably due to the way they do PWM switching.

The Asus/AsRock seem to be the most minimal looking, I quite liked the subtle red glow of my Hero VII


----------



## AlphaC

Another Z370-A with Sira12dp+sira14dp

http://koolshare.cn/thread-126338-1-1.html


----------



## Sethos88

What does the blue coloured field in the chart signify? I'm planning on springing for the Apex. I assume that's, based on the chart, a solid choice. I'm going for one of the Caseking 5.1 pre-binned (Advanced Edition), so I want to make sure I'm giving it a proper home and not having cooked VRMs in the process, without additional modification. In the chart it's considered top tier and in the text, it's listed under 'just' upper tier?


----------



## AlphaC

The wording is before we knew it was 50A Optimos. Originally we didn't know that ,it was presumed 40A NexFETs (which cannot put out 50A at 70°C T_Case).

The pre-binned CPUs are likely going to use less voltage anyhow.

OCUK rated Taichi, Gaming 7, and the Hero as good boards to overclock with. The Apex is essentially a 2 DIMM ROG Hero with better memory trace due to having only 2 DIMMs as well as Dual BIOs.


----------



## Sethos88

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AlphaC*
> 
> The wording is before we knew it was 50A Optimos. Originally we didn't know that ,it was presumed 40A NexFETs (which cannot put out 50A at 70°C T_Case).
> 
> The pre-binned CPUs are likely going to use less voltage anyhow.
> 
> OCUK rated Taichi, Gaming 7, and the Hero as good boards to overclock with. The Apex is essentially a 2 DIMM ROG Hero with better memory trace due to having only 2 DIMMs as well as Dual BIOs.


Ah I see. I honestly didn't see the Apex only being 2 DIMM, that certainly wouldn't jive with the 32GB kit(s) I'm looking at. Think I might be going for the Hero instead then, I reckon. The Formula was also revealed today, so maybe that's another contender to look at? https://www.asus.com/Motherboards/ROG-Maximus-X-Formula/

As for the pre-binned using less voltage. Normally, I'd agree but my belief has been shaken after seeing this post on Reddit; https://www.reddit.com/r/intel/comments/78mp4b/wow_just_got_my_ultra_edition_from_caseking/ 5GHz @ 1.41 seems awfully high and rather poor. So I'm just making sure if I get a chip like that, the motherboard can handle it.


----------



## RustySpoons

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Sethos88*
> 
> Ah I see. I honestly didn't see the Apex only being 2 DIMM, that certainly wouldn't jive with the 32GB kit(s) I'm looking at. Think I might be going for the Hero instead then, I reckon. The Formula was also revealed today, so maybe that's another contender to look at? https://www.asus.com/Motherboards/ROG-Maximus-X-Formula/
> 
> As for the pre-binned using less voltage. Normally, I'd agree but my belief has been shaken after seeing this post on Reddit; https://www.reddit.com/r/intel/comments/78mp4b/wow_just_got_my_ultra_edition_from_caseking/ 5GHz @ 1.41 seems awfully high and rather poor. So I'm just making sure if I get a chip like that, the motherboard can handle it.


If you're going to run a custom loop get the Formula.


----------



## Sethos88

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RustySpoons*
> 
> If you're going to run a custom loop get the Formula.


No custom, will most likely be running an Alphacool Eisbaer 360


----------



## ibrahimsamir

hi guys
if u have to choose between this two motherboard what the best quality of them?:
1- z370 aorus gaming 5
2- asrock z370 taichi


----------



## RustySpoons

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Sethos88*
> 
> No custom, will most likely be running an Alphacool Eisbaer 360


Can't see why you can't pipe the EK Vrm block on the Formula in to that








Looks an interesting cooler by the way.


----------



## AlphaC

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Sethos88*
> 
> Ah I see. I honestly didn't see the Apex only being 2 DIMM, that certainly wouldn't jive with the 32GB kit(s) I'm looking at. Think I might be going for the Hero instead then, I reckon. The Formula was also revealed today, so maybe that's another contender to look at? https://www.asus.com/Motherboards/ROG-Maximus-X-Formula/
> 
> As for the pre-binned using less voltage. Normally, I'd agree but my belief has been shaken after seeing this post on Reddit; https://www.reddit.com/r/intel/comments/78mp4b/wow_just_got_my_ultra_edition_from_caseking/ 5GHz @ 1.41 seems awfully high and rather poor. So I'm just making sure if I get a chip like that, the motherboard can handle it.


It's reddit. If you post a video instead of an article people upvote it just because they are too lazy to read (it takes me 2-3 minutes to burn through 10 page articles no matter the language thanks to Google translate).

Anything that is truly midrange and not "priced as midrange" should be fine. That's why you shouldn't go by the pricing of the Asus / Gigabyte boards. If you go by pricing then you'd think the Strix H, TUF boards, Aorus Ultra Gaming / XP SLI / K3 / 3 are okay.

This is OCN, not reddit. People actually use AVX (for example on AVX in [email protected] my Sandy Bridge has had over *330 hour* uptime). We won't (or at least I won't) recommend you a MSI Z370-A Pro and claim "der8auer said it is fine" without reading the youtube comments in which he mentions that he hit VRM temperatures over 100°C. It's really idiotic to save $30 on a motherboard (cheapest boards are about $130 vs proper midrange $160-170) that is too cut down to make full use of a $400 CPU , without even accounting for featureset.



Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ibrahimsamir*
> 
> hi guys
> if u have to choose between this two motherboard what the best quality of them?:
> 1- z370 aorus gaming 5
> 2- asrock z370 taichi


Taichi. Zero doubt.


----------



## Sin0822

SuperMicro uses new monolithic power MP2955G PWM Controller and Monolithic MP86908 Intelli Phase Power Stage in a 5+2 phase mode on the C7Z370-CG-L


----------



## ibrahimsamir

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AlphaC*
> 
> Taichi. Zero doubt.


thanks that is what i was thinking of going from asrock 990fx


----------



## Telstar

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RustySpoons*
> 
> Lot's of issues with RGB lighting causing RFI, probably due to the way they do PWM switching.
> 
> The Asus/AsRock seem to be the most minimal looking, I quite liked the subtle red glow of my Hero VII


I agree with you: the look of asus rog boards (including the more subtle use of leds) is unmatched.

I would check the compatibility of the Apex with your case manufacturer because it isnt a standard eatx form factor.


----------



## monitorhero

I posted this already but:

There are a few different VCC Highside Lowside MOSFETs like SiRa, BSG0812ND, 4C06B , 4C10N etc.
Are fairchild the best one's?

And when it says 2x is that better, and how do you sort them in terms of quality?

Same goes for controllers:

ISL69138
ASP1400BT
ISL95856
uP9508
etc.

What is the difference, which ones are better?

I would really like to understand those lists better. I appreciate any help. Thanks guys.


----------



## Koniakki

Hey guys, great thread. Following daily! Great info.

Bit of a dilemma here. Would it worth sending back Asus Prime-A and get an Asrock Extreme 4? It would even end up cheaper than the Prime-A.

Reason I got the Prime-A it was the best one available price wise on Amazon. But I found elsewhere the Asrock Extreme 4 even cheaper.

Also already ordered the vaporware 8600K(possibly end of October or early November availability?).

I'm more incline to send it back since I'm looking for max stable OC and probably gonna try take my b-die's at/over 4GHz.

Would any say that the Asrock Extreme 4 would offer more OC headroom or would the Prime-A be enough for max OC 8600k?

Case: TT X9 with plenty airflow along my custom loop(480mm+240mm+D5)


----------



## Clausewitz

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Koniakki*
> 
> Hey guys, great thread. Following daily! Great info.
> 
> Bit of a dilemma here. Would it worth sending back Asus Prime-A and get an Asrock Extreme 4? It would even end up cheaper than the Prime-A.
> 
> Reason I got the Prime-A it was the best one available price wise on Amazon. But I found elsewhere the Asrock Extreme 4 even cheaper.
> 
> Also already ordered the vaporware 8600K(possibly end of October or early November availability?).
> 
> I'm more incline to send it back since I'm looking for max stable OC and probably gonna try take my b-die's at/over 4GHz.
> 
> Would any say that the Asrock Extreme 4 would offer more OC headroom or would the Prime-A be enough for max OC 8600k?
> 
> Case: TT X9 with plenty airflow along my custom loop(480mm+240mm+D5)


I don't think it's worth it. Also, pay attention to Newegg the 8600k was in stock for hours several days in a row.


----------



## czin125

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Koniakki*
> 
> Hey guys, great thread. Following daily! Great info.
> 
> Bit of a dilemma here. Would it worth sending back Asus Prime-A and get an Asrock Extreme 4? It would even end up cheaper than the Prime-A.
> 
> Reason I got the Prime-A it was the best one available price wise on Amazon. But I found elsewhere the Asrock Extreme 4 even cheaper.
> 
> Also already ordered the vaporware 8600K(possibly end of October or early November availability?).
> 
> I'm more incline to send it back since I'm looking for max stable OC and probably gonna try take my b-die's at/over 4GHz.
> 
> Would any say that the Asrock Extreme 4 would offer more OC headroom or would the Prime-A be enough for max OC 8600k?
> 
> Case: TT X9 with plenty airflow along my custom loop(480mm+240mm+D5)


If you wanted more ram frequency, probably? K6 and Extreme4 seems capable of 5.3/5.4 if the cpu and cooling is capable of it.


----------



## br0da

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Sin0822*
> 
> SuperMicro uses new monolithic power MP2955G PWM Controller and Monolithic MP86908 Intelli Phase Power Stage in a 5+2 phase mode on the C7Z370-CG-L


That's pretty interesting, sadly I can't find the datasheets on their website for both of them.








Quote:


> Originally Posted by *monitorhero*
> 
> Are fairchild the best one's?
> 
> And when it says 2x is that better, and how do you sort them in terms of quality?
> [...]
> What is the difference, which ones are better?


Since you are german you can refer to the VRM guide on hardwareluxx, also there are lots of other good guides out there, for example the one from Sin. They are linked under each list or my guide.


----------



## plant

Hey guys, here is a video of my Z370-F experiencing what I believe is a VRM temp shut down. Happens only during 8k max size FFT. 16k max size FFT is actually fine. 8700k/5.0ghz/1.4v/LLC 7

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-IMTtBneW0

The build:



Should have spent the extra $50 on a proper board.


----------



## RustySpoons

I'm about to order the Hero X today, still a bit undecided but seems the best for me.

Also I am going to order a ITX board for my HTPC/TV Gaming/VR machine,
looking at the Asrock Fatal1ty Z370 Gaming-ITX/ac or Strix Z370-I with a i5 8400 or i3 8350 (Can put an 8700K in later on if needed)


----------



## RustySpoons

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *plant*
> 
> Hey guys, here is a video of my Z370-F experiencing what I believe is a VRM temp shut down. Happens only during 8k max size FFT. 16k max size FFT is actually fine. 8700k/5.0ghz/1.4v/LLC 7
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-IMTtBneW0
> 
> The build:
> 
> 
> 
> Should have spent the extra $50 on a proper board.


What's the retailer? send it back as faulty.


----------



## plant

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RustySpoons*
> 
> What's the retailer? send it back as faulty.


I could but I really don't want to deal with the hassle of that. Again it only happens with 8k max FFTs. It plows through everything else. Just posted as a bit of a warning for the people looking at this thread if they weren't already turned off from the strix E/F.


----------



## plant

Oh yea this board also runs b-dies at 4ghz 1.4v 18-19-19-39 which is good I suppose.

I think my issue with the board is more philosophical than practical. The bios is great, everything works really well except that one issue. And that one issue is unlikely to ever present itself in real world use. My philosophical objection would be that I can "overload" a $200 ROG product with a mainstream CPU and a water cooler, that probably shouldn't happen.


----------



## unkletom

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *plant*
> 
> Oh yea this board also runs b-dies at 4ghz 1.4v 18-19-19-39 which is good I suppose.
> 
> I think my issue with the board is more philosophical than practical. The bios is great, everything works really well except that one issue. And that one issue is unlikely to ever present itself in real world use. My philosophical objection would be that I can "overload" a $200 ROG product with a mainstream CPU and a water cooler, that probably shouldn't happen.


Can you post a screenshot of the Aida64 memory benchmark @ 4ghz?


----------



## plant

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *unkletom*
> 
> Can you post a screenshot of the Aida64 memory benchmark @ 4ghz?


----------



## unkletom

Looks good some other guy was posting 55k 33k 33k results on a similar Asus board at high speed ram.

I wouldn't sweat the Prime thing if you're stable on other stress tests. That small FFT test takes the processor to up to 280w package lol. Damn cpu killer.


----------



## RustySpoons

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *plant*
> 
> Oh yea this board also runs b-dies at 4ghz 1.4v 18-19-19-39 which is good I suppose.
> 
> I think my issue with the board is more philosophical than practical. The bios is great, everything works really well except that one issue. And that one issue is unlikely to ever present itself in real world use. My philosophical objection would be that I can "overload" a $200 ROG product with a mainstream CPU and a water cooler, that probably shouldn't happen.


But it's not really a ROG product. It's just ROG branding. Like you can get Mercedes with AMG badges that have a Renault engine. It's just for show. It's a midrange board.

The Hero is the lowest priced ROG board.


----------



## plant

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RustySpoons*
> 
> But it's not really a ROG product. It's just ROG branding. Like you can get Mercedes with AMG badges that have a Renault engine. It's just for show. It's a midrange board.
> 
> The Hero is the lowest priced ROG board.


Clearly. This should be the $150 Z370-A product and ROG should start with the Hero. I think a not-insignificant part of the cost of this board is this sweet m.2 cooler. It's a giant, heavy piece of aluminum.


----------



## bloot

Can confirm 4000 CL18 on 0420 Strix-F too


----------



## AlphaC

It's Republic of Gamers. Not Republic of Overclockers.

Just look at the farce that is the Asus STRIX Z370-H.

The onus is on the consumer to do due diligence.

ROG Hero X


(Delid effect , time in minutes)



^ total system power (Corsair Link reported)
The aluminum Fractal Design Celsius S36 is not enough for the i7-8700k maxed out on a high end board. It's running 1300RPM with 3 fans and still 70°C in a non-AVX2 workload. _For the stress test after OC, we performed encoding using Aviutl + x264 with FF 14 benchmark video_
http://blog.livedoor.jp/wisteriear/archives/1068198011.html

A prior review


http://blog.livedoor.jp/wisteriear/archives/1068178600.html

MSI Krait Gaming confirmation using Ubiq


Quote:


> This is a digital power supply PWM controller, can support 4 +2 phase power supply, the motherboard back + front 4 + 1 mark for the FH UGF73N (foreign forums that is uP1961S) drive + phase device, so the composition of the 8 +2 phase power supply.


http://benyouhui.it168.com/thread-5764944-1-1.html

up1961 datasheet http://www.upi-semi.com/en-article-upi-681-1844#
Quote:


> The uP1961 is a high performance gate driver IC with Phase Extension Module (PEM). The PEM interleaves the single PWM input and drives dual-phase synchronous buck power stages.


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *catacavaco*
> 
> info about the Z370M Pro4 from asrock,
> 
> not sure about the validity though:
> 
> http://forum.asrock.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=6376&title=z370m-pro4-vrm-phases


I think that guy needs to read more about VRM.









I don't know what he's going on about totem poles.

11 chokes likely is 8+3 , 4 phases so-called doubled (might be 2 mosfets per phase) to 8 for CPU with one of the phases unheatsinked at the top portion of PCB. If it were 6 CPU phases as he said , then you'd have to get 5 phases for other things. If you look at the AB350 Pro 4 (Am4) then that is 3 PWM phases with 2 mosfets per phase with 6 chokes , 3 SOC phases.

If you follow his line of thinking then Asrock didn't upgrade the VRM from the Z270M Pro4 from 3 phases so-called doubled (might be 2 mosfets per phase) to 6.

While it may be "fake doubled" , I don't think it's 6 CPU phases.


----------



## catacavaco

info about the Z370M Pro4 from asrock,

not sure about the validity though:

http://forum.asrock.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=6376&title=z370m-pro4-vrm-phases


----------



## unkletom

On the Asrock Extreme4 with gskill 3866 b-die. Not bad for a €160 board.


----------



## RustySpoons

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AlphaC*
> 
> It's Republic of Gamers. Not Republic of Overclockers.
> 
> Just look at the farce that is the Asus STRIX Z370-H.
> 
> The onus is on the consumer to do due diligence.


Yes but ROG used to stand for something and were always premium products, now they are slapping ROG logos on everything and those who are not clued up will buy it.
That Strix-H, I cannot figure it out, what is the point of it? whoever parts with money for that I feel sorry for







, I've talked a few people out of getting that and seemed to be
a go-to board for them before I pointed things out. I guess it's the ROG Maximus style it has that must confuse people.


----------



## TMatzelle60

What Z370 motherboards are really reliable and have good features? Was looking at the Tiachi. Also waiting for the Maximus X Code


----------



## demone

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AlphaC*
> 
> Taichi. Zero doubt.


Hello to everyone and thank you for all the info and inputs.

@AlphaC why taichi z370 than gigabyte gaming 5?

I am between taichi and gaming 5, strix e too, and was closer to gigabyte before your input.


----------



## RustySpoons

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *demone*
> 
> Hello to everyone and thank you for all the info and inputs.
> 
> @AlphaC why taichi z370 than gigabyte gaming 5?
> 
> I am between taichi and gaming 5, strix e too, and was closer to gigabyte before your input.


I'd take the Taichi any day over the Gaming 5!


----------



## Telstar

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *demone*
> 
> Hello to everyone and thank you for all the info and inputs.
> 
> @AlphaC why taichi z370 than gigabyte gaming 5?
> 
> I am between taichi and gaming 5, strix e too, and was closer to gigabyte before your input.


Read the table in the first page.


----------



## demone

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RustySpoons*
> 
> I'd take the Taichi any day over the Gaming 5!


Ok but why? I can find them in same price. That's why I am asking.


----------



## AlphaC

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *demone*
> 
> Ok but why? I can find them in same price. That's why I am asking.


Everything for overclocking / performance basically.
VRM is better (this is the VRM thread after all)
Memory VRM is top notch , with 4333MHz listed on official memory QVL ---- Gigabyte Gaming 7 usually around 3866 per 8pack (4133Mhz on QVL), and AFAIK Gaming 5 is at best on par with Gaming 7
USB 3.1 gen 2 front panel header if you need it
Dual Intel LAN with teaming
*It's a board recommended by both OCUK's 8pack and Silicon Lottery QVL*

https://forums.overclockers.co.uk/posts/31227686
Quote:


> No one has mentioned asrock Taichi here which surprises me. It's doing 4K plus mems xmp without issue. Which is better than most. It's efficient and is not as expensive as some. I used it in alot of my testing and it's working great.


https://forums.overclockers.co.uk/posts/31228912
Quote:


> AsRock Taichi 4 Dimm board already rock stable 8Pack dimms upto 4K.


The Taichi is about on par with Gaming 7 when both are compared with out of the box water cooling (not custom).

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *TMatzelle60*
> 
> What Z370 motherboards are really reliable and have good features? Was looking at the Tiachi. Also waiting for the Maximus X Code


Z370 has been out less than a month. Reliability can only be guessed at.

If you want a safe bet I would go with something like the OCUK recommended Asrock Taichi , Asus Maximus X Hero ,or Gigabyte Gaming 7

Gigabyte z370 Ultra Gaming confirmation, and why it is on the "do not buy list" / not recommended


Intersil ISL95866
NTMFS4C10N & NTMFS4C06N

V-droop chart


(Toasty)

^ only 135W output power and it is already this hot
https://www.overclockers.ru/lab/87522_4/obzor-i-testirovanie-materinskoj-platy-gigabyte-z370-aorus-ultra-gaming.html


----------



## mWally

@AlphaC

Between the Taichi & Maximus X Hero, which would you recommend? Most important aspect to my purchase I'd say would be future proofing myself for a while, along with quality of parts and reliability,


----------



## kd5151

https://us.hardware.info/reviews/7605/intel-z370-motherboards-round-up-17-times-coffee-lake


----------



## mWally

Already read that, was asking for a more personal perspective outlook from someone who seemed knowledgeable on those certain boards.


----------



## XPrecep

Testing with the Hero right now using Prime95 29.3 Small FFT (AVX), all figures quoted were obtained from 6 hour stability tests which passed unless otherwise specified.
At no point in these tests was there any throttling reported by HWiNFO nor immediately visible to me. All temps reportedly remained under 65C.
Cooling was provided by a custom watercooling loop using a monoblock, processor is a delidded 8700K.

Is there any physical reason for something strange I'm seeing regarding the CPU Package Power readings in HWiNFO64?

*First the stuff that, to me, appears normal:*

At 4.9GHz with VCORE set to 1.34V, LLC at 5, HWiNFO reports Vdroop from 1.344V to 1.296V under load. All good.

I see changes in CPU Package Power when the FFT size changes during the test, of up to 15W - Power consumption is higher during 15K/16K FFT size when compared to 8K/10K/12K FFT size. This was observed in all my tests at 4.7, 4.8 and 4.9GHz, similar power consumption delta following the same pattern.

*Now the stuff I have questions about (In bold):*

At 4.7GHz with VCORE set to 1.30V, HWiNFO reported a maximum CPU Package Power of 174.702W.

The stability test failed at 4.8GHz with VCORE set to 1.30V, I increased VCORE to 1.34V, at which point the stability test no longer failed.

At 4.8GHz with VCORE set to 1.34V, HWiNFO reported a maximum CPU Package Power of 193.989W. *Increasing VCORE by 0.04V and frequency by 100MHz resulted in an additional 19.287W consumption.*

At 4.9GHz with VCORE set to 1.34V, HWiNFO reported a maximum CPU Package Power of 204.214W. *Increasing frequency by 100MHz with no VCORE increase resulted in an additional 10.225W consumption.*

The stability test failed at 5.0GHz with VCORE set to 1.34V, I increased VCORE to 1.38V, at which point the stability test no longer failed.

At 5.0GHz with VCORE set to 1.38V, HWiNFO reported a maximum CPU Package Power of 207.875W. *Increasing VCORE by 0.04V and frequency by 100MHz only resulted in an additional 3.661W consumption. Additionally, no changes in power consumption occured between FFT sizes during the test, unlike the usual pattern I was seeing.*

I wanted to ask here specifically because there's a lot of people who are specifically knowledgeable about power delivery. Is there any physical reason I'm seeing such strange non-linear responses to changes in voltage and frequency in my 5.0GHz test? Before I start asking elsewhere about what I'm perceiving to be 'phantom throttling', I wanted to make sure this wasn't physically normal. I don't think I should be seeing such a small bump in CPU package power comparative to the previous bump that occured at a lower frequency. But maybe there's a physical reason for it, or maybe I'm making poor conclusions from data taken from HWiNFO that someone can correct me on.


----------



## monitorhero

From what i read so far there seems ot be no chance of getting a 5ghz overclock undelidded on air. Is that correct?

Also a kinda random question. Most of the boards use ASMedia USB controllers. Are there also different types of vendors? And is there something like INTEL USB 3.0 coming from the CPU itself?


----------



## jellybeans69

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *monitorhero*
> 
> From what i read so far there seems ot be no chance of getting a 5ghz overclock undelidded on air. Is that correct?
> 
> Also a kinda random question. Most of the boards use ASMedia USB controllers. Are there also different types of vendors? And is there something like INTEL USB 3.0 coming from the CPU itself?


8600k / 4.9 / 1.36v in bios (1.32v under load) / Noctua Dh15s / not delided and on low-end board (aka do not buy one) - I lost the silicon lottery but still can cool it off on air at almost 5g.


----------



## Scotty99

Depends on what you are doing on your PC. I personally think stress tests are unnecessarily taxing. I mean sure run aida for 15 or 20 minutes, but going ham with AVX prime is just beating up hardware for no reason. Im gonna be cooling a 8700k with an air cooler, itll be fine for 5ghz for what i do on my PC.


----------



## ottoore

Asus Maximus X Apex





http://greentechreviews.ru/2017/10/28/obzor-materinskoj-platy-asus-rog-maximus-apex/


----------



## Scotty99

Does the apex seriously not have an io cover?


----------



## catacavaco

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Scotty99*
> 
> Does the apex seriously not have an io cover?


it does, check the review link that was posted with the pics


----------



## Scotty99

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *catacavaco*
> 
> it does, check the review link that was posted with the pics


Oh that looks nice, maybe i was thinking of a different board.


----------



## spddmn24

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *monitorhero*
> 
> From what i read so far there seems ot be no chance of getting a 5ghz overclock undelidded on air. Is that correct?
> 
> Also a kinda random question. Most of the boards use ASMedia USB controllers. Are there also different types of vendors? And is there something like INTEL USB 3.0 coming from the CPU itself?


Depends on lottery and your workloads. 5.1 ghz in realbench/gaming was no problem for me before I delidded with an nh-d15. All delidding did was drop my temps ~15c.


----------



## orbit2

Hi guys,new forum user here!
I'm going to build a new gaming rig,and i would appreciate some help in choosing the board!
My system specs will be: case phanteks enthoo luxe with 5 fans, cpu 8700k paired with nh-u14s, ddr4 2x8gb 3200 cas14,gpu gtx 1080 ti strix oc.
i already have a corsair cx650m for psu,but i fear it's not powerful enough to squeeze every possible mhz out of my cpu!
Reading the posts in this thread it looks like the gigabyte gaming 7 is the best choice regarding Vcore and vrm temps,but in the place where i live i can find a taichi for 50-70 euro less. Is the taichi a poor choice vs the gaming 7? should i expect much higher voltage when overclocking? i'm going to delid if necessary








thanks in advance!


----------



## Sin0822

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *br0da*
> 
> That's pretty interesting, sadly I can't find the datasheets on their website for both of them. :wth.


Yea, I think they are new. I asked Supermicro and their engineers say each power stage is rated 50A, and the PWM is in 5+2 phase mode, although they didn't specify if it was capable of 6+2 phase operation or anything else.


----------



## tiefox

Just ordered the Apex here in Denmark. I should be getting it on Thursday, let me know if you guys want to see any specific VRM infos and tests, I will oc my 8700k and gskill 4266 memory.


----------



## Sin0822

Oh, I have the apex here, It uses Infineons OptiMOS BSG0812ND instead of the typical NexFET found on the Maximus IX Apex, but otherwise the VCCSA, VCCIO, and memory VRMs are identicle. It's 4+2 phases doubled to 8+2, so just doubling on the CPU core side, but doubling the correct way.


----------



## Techhog

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *orbit2*
> 
> Hi guys,new forum user here!
> I'm going to build a new gaming rig,and i would appreciate some help in choosing the board!
> My system specs will be: case phanteks enthoo luxe with 5 fans, cpu 8700k paired with nh-u14s, ddr4 2x8gb 3200 cas14,gpu gtx 1080 ti strix oc.
> i already have a corsair cx650m for psu,but i fear it's not powerful enough to squeeze every possible mhz out of my cpu!
> Reading the posts in this thread it looks like the gigabyte gaming 7 is the best choice regarding Vcore and vrm temps,but in the place where i live i can find a taichi for 50-70 euro less. Is the taichi a poor choice vs the gaming 7? should i expect much higher voltage when overclocking? i'm going to delid if necessary
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> thanks in advance!


650W is fine for any mainstream, single GPU gaming system no matter how hard you overclock.


----------



## ottoore

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Sin0822*
> 
> It's 4+2 phases doubled to 8+2, so just doubling on the CPU core side, but doubling the correct way.


Doubled? Looks like it has 10 physical phases


----------



## Sin0822

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ottoore*
> 
> Doubled? Looks like it has 10 physical phases


There are four IR3599 on the other side of the PCB. PWM channel goes to IR3599, which then outputs two PWM channels to two drivers. They used one driver per phase, which is the preferred way to double it. They could have also use IR3598, but I guess they had extra stock of IR3599 and IR3535.


----------



## RustySpoons

My CPU orders have been pushed back a few days!, anyone else having success getting hold of them?


----------



## AlphaC

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *XPrecep*
> 
> Testing with the Hero right now using Prime95 29.3 Small FFT (AVX), all figures quoted were obtained from 6 hour stability tests which passed unless otherwise specified.
> At no point in these tests was there any throttling reported by HWiNFO nor immediately visible to me. All temps reportedly remained under 65C.
> Cooling was provided by a custom watercooling loop using a monoblock, processor is a delidded 8700K.
> 
> Is there any physical reason for something strange I'm seeing regarding the CPU Package Power readings in HWiNFO64?
> 
> *First the stuff that, to me, appears normal:*
> 
> At 4.9GHz with VCORE set to 1.34V, LLC at 5, HWiNFO reports Vdroop from 1.344V to 1.296V under load. All good.
> 
> I see changes in CPU Package Power when the FFT size changes during the test, of up to 15W - Power consumption is higher during 15K/16K FFT size when compared to 8K/10K/12K FFT size. This was observed in all my tests at 4.7, 4.8 and 4.9GHz, similar power consumption delta following the same pattern.
> 
> *Now the stuff I have questions about (In bold):*
> 
> At 4.7GHz with VCORE set to 1.30V, HWiNFO reported a maximum CPU Package Power of 174.702W.
> 
> The stability test failed at 4.8GHz with VCORE set to 1.30V, I increased VCORE to 1.34V, at which point the stability test no longer failed.
> 
> At 4.8GHz with VCORE set to 1.34V, HWiNFO reported a maximum CPU Package Power of 193.989W. *Increasing VCORE by 0.04V and frequency by 100MHz resulted in an additional 19.287W consumption.*
> 
> At 4.9GHz with VCORE set to 1.34V, HWiNFO reported a maximum CPU Package Power of 204.214W. *Increasing frequency by 100MHz with no VCORE increase resulted in an additional 10.225W consumption.*
> 
> The stability test failed at 5.0GHz with VCORE set to 1.34V, I increased VCORE to 1.38V, at which point the stability test no longer failed.
> 
> At 5.0GHz with VCORE set to 1.38V, HWiNFO reported a maximum CPU Package Power of 207.875W. *Increasing VCORE by 0.04V and frequency by 100MHz only resulted in an additional 3.661W consumption. Additionally, no changes in power consumption occured between FFT sizes during the test, unlike the usual pattern I was seeing.*
> 
> I wanted to ask here specifically because there's a lot of people who are specifically knowledgeable about power delivery. Is there any physical reason I'm seeing such strange non-linear responses to changes in voltage and frequency in my 5.0GHz test? Before I start asking elsewhere about what I'm perceiving to be 'phantom throttling', I wanted to make sure this wasn't physically normal. I don't think I should be seeing such a small bump in CPU package power comparative to the previous bump that occured at a lower frequency. But maybe there's a physical reason for it, or maybe I'm making poor conclusions from data taken from HWiNFO that someone can correct me on.


As far as nonlinear response: generally power goes up with the square of voltage but only linearly with the clockspeed.

You didn't mention temperatures of both the CPU and the mosfets.

Maybe the chip was at a lower temperature. A chip at lower temperature uses less power. You can see this phenomenon when the same chip on a 120mm 4 heatpipe air cooler is transferred to a 240mm All-in-one water cooling unit per the quasarzone korea review.

You mentioned no phantom throttling but perhaps you had a power / current limit. Also the mosfets used may not be the same efficiency at all current draws. If it is too low a current , then the efficiency is lower than the optimal current band.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *orbit2*
> 
> Hi guys,new forum user here!
> I'm going to build a new gaming rig,and i would appreciate some help in choosing the board!
> My system specs will be: case phanteks enthoo luxe with 5 fans, cpu 8700k paired with nh-u14s, ddr4 2x8gb 3200 cas14,gpu gtx 1080 ti strix oc.
> i already have a corsair cx650m for psu,but i fear it's not powerful enough to squeeze every possible mhz out of my cpu!
> Reading the posts in this thread it looks like the gigabyte gaming 7 is the best choice regarding Vcore and vrm temps,but in the place where i live i can find a taichi for 50-70 euro less. Is the taichi a poor choice vs the gaming 7? should i expect much higher voltage when overclocking? i'm going to delid if necessary
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> thanks in advance!


Your CPU cooler would hold you back more than your motherboard unless you get one of the "do not buy" / not advised section motherboards which struggle with 150W. The Taichi is plenty capable (it's got two more phases so the heat is more spread out even if the maximum current is lower) and the heatsink is not as covered.

Without a delid I would think you'd hit about 80°C using a mere 180W power to the CPU. People have obtained 20-25°C temperature drops for their CPUs with a delid.

If you look at coolingtechnique's graph, they project the heating based on wattage

http://www.coolingtechnique.com/recensioni/air-cooling/dissipatori/1247-recensione-noctua-nh-u12s-e-nh-u14s.html?start=9
At 200W then the CPU would increase 35°C or more , add the non-delid CPU adjustment of 20-25°C and a board temp of 25-30°C means around 90°C CPU temp

Similar review using an older i7 3960x hexcore instead http://www.hardwareasylum.com/reviews/cooling/noctua_nh-u14s/page3.aspx
Cites NH-U14s as effectively ~ 0.16 or 0.17 °C/W thermal resistance

At 180W , from that result you would presume +29°C , add +25°C from not delidding and 30°C ambient/board temp and you get 84 - 86°C

When you see a result with a 240mm all-in-one , add about 5°C and that's approximately what you'd get with a NH-U14S.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *monitorhero*
> 
> From what i read so far there seems ot be no chance of getting a 5ghz overclock undelidded on air. Is that correct?
> 
> Also a kinda random question. Most of the boards use ASMedia USB controllers. Are there also different types of vendors? And is there something like INTEL USB 3.0 coming from the CPU itself?


http://quasarzone.co.kr/bbs/board.php?bo_table=qc_qsz&wr_id=102002&sca=CPU
Quasarzone didn't test with AVX workload AFAIK but even a 120mm cooler with 4 heatpipes can get 4.9-5GHz. The issue is the undelidded CPU hits close to 90°C.

As above , make sure you put a hefty AVX offset.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Neville0*
> 
> Fatal1ty Z370 Gaming-ITX/ac vrms
> 
> They appear to be the same ones above the cpu socket in a 5+2 phase setup. Interesting because the Z270 setup have 8 total phases in a 6+2 (If I remember correctly).
> 
> http://www.overclock.net/content/type/61/id/3143243/width/350/height/700
> 
> http://www.overclock.net/content/type/61/id/3143244/width/350/height/700


Excellent. Those appear to be the 60A Intersil Powerstages as on the Gigabyte Gaming 7 but with the 60A Cooper Bussman chokes.









Confirmed on https://www.hkepc.com/15711/%E6%89%93%E9%80%A0Gaming_Mini_PC_ASROCK_Fatal1ty_Z370_Gaming-ITXac

Intersil ISL69138 PWM
Intersil ISL99227B Dr.MOS
60A chokes
12K caps

Gigabyte Aorus Gaming wifi confirmation


Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!







http://quasarzone.co.kr/bbs/board.php?bo_table=qc_qsz&wr_id=107466
Same VRM as Ultra Gaming probably


----------



## Neville0

Fatal1ty Z370 Gaming-ITX/ac vrms

They appear to be the same ones above the cpu socket in a 5+2 phase setup. Interesting because the Z270 setup have 8 total phases in a 6+2 (If I remember correctly).


----------



## Neville0

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Neville0*
> 
> Fatal1ty Z370 Gaming-ITX/ac vrms
> 
> They appear to be the same ones above the cpu socket in a 5+2 phase setup. Interesting because the Z270 setup have 8 total phases in a 6+2 (If I remember correctly).


The number of the vrm says "27F 37AU" which is very similar to the X299 mITX board that Asrock made which is "23F 73AU".


----------



## monitorhero

So thursday my 8700k will arrive but I still couldn't decide on a board.

I feels like the Gigabyte LLC options are a little limited. Is that a problem for overclocking? Also their Bios isn't very nice too look at like the Asrock one. It's so tough to decide.
At the moment I own a x370 Taichi and having problems with my Oculus Rift. I don't wanna risk buying another Taichi and having the same problems again. But everyone is recommending the Taichi. What a dilemma








What would you do?


----------



## Exilon

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Exilon*
> 
> I think the thermal pads are still crap, cranking it down is just mitigating the badness. The VRM heatsinks' temperature is far below the VRM_MOS sensor and my thermal probe on the board.


I went ahead and ordered one of these: https://www.amazon.com/Fujipoly-mod-smart-Extreme-Thermal/dp/B00ZSJQX0E/

I cut up the pieces, replaced the stock Gaming 7 VRM pads, and then cranked down the VRM heatsink. The following results were measured using an Aquaero thermal probe taped to the back of the PCB.

10C drop with a ~230W load on the CPU. Old load was >62C and idle is ~33C, so we're looking at a 1/3 drop in dT.



Keep in mind that I have a 140mm fan sucking in air right above the VRM heatsink, so my stock thermals are pretty low to start with.



In conclusion, the bad thermal results some are reporting are likely due to insufficient air flow over the VRM heatsinks exacerbated by the stock thermal pads and possible loose heat sink mounting.

Those seeing >100C VRM temperatures are likely to see huge drops when replacing the stock thermal pads with high performance aftermarket pads.


----------



## Kana Chan

7 more dollars to get the top end version

https://www.amazon.com/Fujipoly-Extreme-System-Builder-Thermal/dp/B00MQ5V61Y


----------



## Exilon

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Kana Chan*
> 
> 7 more dollars to get the top end version
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Fujipoly-Extreme-System-Builder-Thermal/dp/B00MQ5V61Y


It needs to be 1.0mm or more for the GBT Gaming 7 b/c the heatsink has built-in standoffs.

https://www.amazon.com/Fujipoly-mod-smart-Extreme-Thermal/dp/B00ZSJQLME

Getting kind of pricey at this point though.


----------



## Kana Chan

https://www.amazon.com/Fujipoly-Extreme-System-Builder-Thermal/dp/B00MQ5Y1XY
26.49 or 11.50 more I guess

60x50x1.0


----------



## Yetyhunter

@AlphaC

Could you please tell me where does the Asus STRIX-E stands compared to all these boards with good VRM's like the Taichi and Gaming 7?
How well will it stand a 5GHZ overclock ?


----------



## e-gate

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Yetyhunter*
> 
> @AlphaC
> 
> Could you please tell me where does the Asus STRIX-E stands compared to all these boards with good VRM's like the Taichi and Gaming 7?
> How well will it stand a 5GHZ overclock ?


I would like to know how it compares with Aorus Gaming 5 since they are on the same league and cost the same.


----------



## catacavaco

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *br0da*
> 
> That's pretty interesting, sadly I can't find the datasheets on their website for both of them.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Since you are german you can refer to the VRM guide on hardwareluxx, also there are lots of other good guides out there, for example the one from Sin. They are linked under each list or my guide.


*Stupid question #1:*
Im sorry if this question was answered before somewhere, but I am still having a hard time understanding how to make a clear decision based on the vrm datasheets.
Would it be something like this ?:

High side mosfet Id max (A) (use >70C for a more realistic value) * number of phases * your vcore = Max theoretical wattage for the cpu

Application:
Z370 Aorus Gaming 5 -> 46A * 4 * 2 * 1.3v = 478W
ROG Strix Z370-E Gaming -> 46A * 4 * 2 * 1.3v = 478W
ROG Strix Z370-I Gaming -> 20A * 6 * 1.3v = 156W

*Stupid question #2:*
If you disable your iGPU, are the unused phases available to the CPU or are they completely separated ?


----------



## unkletom

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Yetyhunter*
> 
> @AlphaC
> 
> Could you please tell me where does the Asus STRIX-E stands compared to all these boards with good VRM's like the Taichi and Gaming 7?
> How well will it stand a 5GHZ overclock ?


It stands at the bottom of the pile with €50 mobos. Why do you want a Strix so bad?

Don't reward Asus bad line-up strategy


----------



## Yetyhunter

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *unkletom*
> 
> It stands at the bottom of the pile with €50 mobos. Why do you want a Strix so bad?
> 
> Don't reward Asus bad line-up strategy


It has WiFi. Damn ! I already received the board. I ordered it almost 3 weeks ago.


----------



## monitorhero

Is this a common issue with bad thermal pads on the Aorus Gaming 7? My system has a bad airflow so I am a little concerned on ordering it. Plus the limited LLC options.


----------



## moustang

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Exilon*
> 
> I went ahead and ordered one of these: https://www.amazon.com/Fujipoly-mod-smart-Extreme-Thermal/dp/B00ZSJQX0E/
> 
> I cut up the pieces, replaced the stock Gaming 7 VRM pads, and then cranked down the VRM heatsink. The following results were measured using an Aquaero thermal probe taped to the back of the PCB.
> 
> 10C drop with a ~230W load on the CPU. Old load was >62C and idle is ~33C, so we're looking at a 1/3 drop in dT.


I will keep this in mind when I build my system this weekend. Just waiting for the CPU to show up. Tracking shows that I should have it Thursday.

Fortunately for me I got the motherboard on sale for $199.99, so the price of adding pads is still cheaper than the board at normal price. I'll wait and see what the temps are like. If they're hot I'll order the pads, if not then I won't bother.


----------



## br0da

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *catacavaco*
> 
> High side mosfet Id max (A) (use >70C for a more realistic value) * number of phases * your vcore = Max theoretical wattage for the cpu


This indicator isn't that informative.
ID is a continuous rating but a highside FET gets pulsed at a duty cycle of about 0.1 to 0.12. In these conditions higher amperage can be applied. It might not always be a good idea but ID isn't a physical limit coming up for every use of a MOSFET as a highside switch in a buck converter.

Your thought better fits for the lowside FET since this one is turned on about 88% to 90% of a period. If the lowsides ID e.g. is 48A you do better not pull more than 48A through your phase, in most of the cases the lowsides ID can't even rudimentarily be drawn through a phase in a modern multiphase buck converter.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *catacavaco*
> 
> If you disable your iGPU, are the unused phases available to the CPU or are they completely separated ?


They are completely separated and disabled if the iGP is disabled too.


----------



## monitorhero

What is the difference between SM7341EH and FDPC5030SG?

Also what is the best ASRock board. Still the Taichi?


----------



## br0da

See: https://www.hardwareluxx.de/community/f12/pga-am4-mainboard-vrm-liste-1155146-29.html#post25754912


----------



## moustang

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *br0da*
> 
> See: https://www.hardwareluxx.de/community/f12/pga-am4-mainboard-vrm-liste-1155146-29.html#post25754912


I don't speak German and I don't see how AM4 based motherboards have anything to do with the Z370 (Intel) platform.


----------



## br0da

Come on the diagrams and the table are english, also google translator should work for you too if you care about those two sentences besides the pictures and the spoiler in the post.
If you look into what you are seeing I'll recognize that these diagrams just show the different power losses of the FETs @1.45V. So there is no connection to any mainboard platform.


----------



## monitorhero

Does every board have the Intel Z370 USB Chipset? On most specifications it says:

- 1 x USB 3.1 Gen2 Type-A Port (10 Gb/s) (ASMedia ASM3142) (Supports ESD Protection)
- 1 x USB 3.1 Gen2 Type-C Port (10 Gb/s) (ASMedia ASM3142) (Supports ESD Protection)
- 4 x USB 3.1 Gen1 Ports *(Intel® Z370)* (Supports ESD Protection)

On the Aorus Gaming 7 I only see:

Chipset+2 ASMedia® USB 3.1 Gen 2 Controllers:

1 x USB Type-C™ port with USB 3.1 Gen 2 support, available through the internal USB header

1 x USB Type-C™ port on the back panel, with USB 3.1 Gen 2 support

1 x USB 3.1 Gen 2 Type-A port (red) on the back panel

Chipset+Realtek® USB 3.1 Gen 1 Hub:

2 x USB 3.1 Gen 1 ports available through the internal USB header

Chipset:

5 x USB 3.1 Gen 1 ports on the back panel

4 x USB 2.0/1.1 ports available through the internal USB headers

*Are the 5x USB 3.1 Gen 1 ports on the back Intel USB ports?*


----------



## Telstar

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *monitorhero*
> 
> Is this a common issue with bad thermal pads on the Aorus Gaming 7? My system has a bad airflow so I am a little concerned on ordering it. Plus the limited LLC options.


Nobody knows at this point how common is the issue. Buy it from amazon or another place where u can easy return it or swap for another.

In asrock lineup, above the Taichi stands the fatality i7 ultra (the most expensive one, not sure of name), but pcb and vrm should be the same.
If you want a very polished bios you could consider one of the Asus rog boards (not the strix ones, the real rog).


----------



## monitorhero

I am really struggling to decide at the moment. I really don't want to buy the Gigabyte and RMA it the next day. The Asrock as good as they are lack a few features like 3x PCIe 1x Slots or 5 USB 3.1 Gen 1 Slots. I need at least 4 to run the Oculus Rift. But the Taichi/Asrock are a lot cheaper than the Gigabyte. Still I am not happy with my current X370 Taichi (though not sure if the board is to blame, but I am having bad latencies with my Oculus). And the good bios on the Asus is the only thing superior but the prices are too high for my taste. I wish the manufacturers would put more USB at the rear panel instead of two LANs.


----------



## Telstar

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *monitorhero*
> 
> Still I am not happy with my current X370 Taichi (though not sure if the board is to blame, but I am having bad latencies with my Oculus). And the good bios on the Asus is the only thing superior but the prices are too high for my taste. I wish the manufacturers would put more USB at the rear panel instead of two LANs.


Yes it is.








And im looking for a usb expansion bracket using internal headers cause i need 10 usb ports and no 370 board has that many. Really stupid but that's it.
Maybe the Hero (cheapest rog) doesnt have issues with your oculus (no idea really). Or it was an issue with am4 chipset any any z370 board will be lag free: u need to find out on oculus forum, not here.


----------



## monitorhero

I haven't found much on the oculus forums regarding the AM4 chipset. Might be a compatibility issue. Thats why I refrain from buying a Taichi again. I tried a lot of different things with no success on the x370 and I don't want to go through that again . I had a Gigabyte for my i7 2600k and was pretty happy with it for 6 years.


----------



## RustySpoons

Anyone looked at the Gigabyte Z370-N Wifi and Strix-I? Can't find any decent info on them. Going to get one of these two for my HTPC. No info on VRM etc anywhere.


----------



## Exilon

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *monitorhero*
> 
> Is this a common issue with bad thermal pads on the Aorus Gaming 7? My system has a bad airflow so I am a little concerned on ordering it. Plus the limited LLC options.


It's limited but it should be enough for overclocking. At 5.0 GHz AVX, LLC High is ~80mV (1.33v), Turbo is ~20mV (1.39v), and Extreme is ~0mV (1.41v) droop as measured by the IT8792E sensor. The IT8686E sensor has dropped out altogether.


----------



## monitorhero

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Exilon*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *monitorhero*
> 
> Is this a common issue with bad thermal pads on the Aorus Gaming 7? My system has a bad airflow so I am a little concerned on ordering it. Plus the limited LLC options.
> 
> 
> 
> It's limited but it should be enough for overclocking. At 5.0 GHz AVX, LLC High is ~80mV (1.33v), Turbo is ~20mV (1.39v), and Extreme is ~0mV (1.41v) droop as measured by the IT8792E sensor. The IT8686E sensor has dropped out altogether.
Click to expand...

Is this a problem that will be fixed or is it just on some boards?


----------



## urs1

*What do you make of this :*
https://www.hardwareluxx.de/community/f12/lga-1151-mainboard-vrm-liste-1175784.html#z370

Gigabyte Aorus Gaming 7 has same same VRM as Asrock Taichi, Gaming k6, Gaming i7 (but these have 5+2 instead of 4+2 on Gigabyte )

Why is Gigabyte Aorus Gaming 7 the best motherboard, except for audio quality, in terms of overclocking ?


----------



## Exilon

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *urs1*
> 
> *What do you make of this :*
> https://www.hardwareluxx.de/community/f12/lga-1151-mainboard-vrm-liste-1175784.html#z370
> 
> Gigabyte Aorus Gaming 7 has same same VRM as Asrock Taichi, Gaming k6, Gaming i7 (but these have 5+2 instead of 4+2 on Gigabyte )


You're only looking at the controller. The drivers matter as well.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *monitorhero*
> 
> Is this a problem that will be fixed or is it just on some boards?


I don't think it's a big problem to be honest. If it's regarding the IT8686E sensor, IDK if they can fix it by UEFI update.


----------



## e-gate




----------



## RustySpoons

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *e-gate*


That's a bit concerning, fair play to Tom for highlighting a lot of these Z370 board issues.
I'm eyeing up a few ITX Boards for my HTPC build, can't find any info on Gigabytes ITX offerings so hope they are not affected as well.


----------



## e-gate

Can't find info on the Gaming 5 as well. Wonder what else will be "discovered" the next days on those CFL motherboards. It''s always good to wait and see.
Right now I'm between Strix Z370-E and Gaming 5. But not enough info to make a decision.


----------



## WexleySnoops

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *e-gate*


What a ****show of a board. Well done Gigabyte, guess I won't be going with them this time around.


----------



## monitorhero

Does that matter if you are buying a Gaming 7 or is this intended to be Anti-Gigabyte


----------



## e-gate

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *monitorhero*
> 
> Does that matter if you are buying a Gaming 7 or is this intended to be Anti-Gigabyte


It's Anti Gigabyte. Ultra Gaming is completely different from Gaming 5 and 7. All companies have crappy models. Asus Strix H is crap as well.


----------



## monitorhero

https://youtu.be/gTSt8sPGmMQ?list=PLD15E20DE202F5B1F That video made me lean towards the Hero again. It's always a lottery if the bios gets better or not.

I just remembered. No Dual Bios on the Asus boards. My biggest turnoff...

EDIT:

From looking at a lot of reviews the performance of the Asus Z370-A seems to be top of the charts in every test. Can somebody confirm?


----------



## AlphaC

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *e-gate*


Someone please let Tom know that ASUS z370-A is not a lower-end board and that it has double the phases as the Ultra Gaming...


If you run 2 mosfets per phase instead of running a doubler, you have 2 times the power loss on your low side fet.

P_Cond, low side with double the phases= (1-D)*(I_out**0.5*)^2*R_DS(on),LS = (1-D)*(I_out)^2*R_DS(on),LS * *0.25*

P_Cond, doubled low side = (1-D)*(I_out)^2*R_DS(on),LS**0.5*

----
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *monitorhero*
> 
> What is the difference between SM7341EH and FDPC5030SG?
> 
> Also what is the best ASRock board. Still the Taichi?


br0da's link calculated high side switching and low side conduction AFAIK. At V_GS=10V I obtain the same efficiency for both mosfets at around 180-220W output. Sinopower datasheet only lists typical rise & fall time so it portrays the mosfet in a better light than the Fairchild fet which has a maximum value listed.

When I calculate I also use dead time losses and reverse recovery power loss at low side. That's the difference. I also calculate output mosfets' capacitance loss based on C_OSS and Gate drive losses
P_DIODE = t_DEADTIME •F_SW • V_F •I_OUT , where t_DEADTIME(R) ≈ tDELAY(R)
P_QRR = Q_RR • V_IN •f_SW
Q_G losses = (Q_g_HS+ Q_g_LS ) • V_Driver • f_sw

I wouldn't stress over it, both are decently good parts unlike the midrange stuff from the other manufacturers which are merely mediocre.

Taichi is the board recommended by 8pack from OCUK and is on Siliconlottery QVL.

edit: basically I follow the Fairchild AN-6005 Synchronous buck MOSFET loss calculations
https://www.fairchildsemi.com/application-notes/AN/AN-6005.pdf

Rohm semiconductor does it relatively the same http://rohmfs.rohm.com/en/products/databook/applinote/ic/power/switching_regulator/power_loss_appli-e.pdf

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *e-gate*
> 
> Can't find info on the Gaming 5 as well. Wonder what else will be "discovered" the next days on those CFL motherboards. It''s always good to wait and see.
> Right now I'm between Strix Z370-E and Gaming 5. But not enough info to make a decision.


Gigabyte Gaming 5 is using 4 phases doubled to 8 with 4C06 low side + 4c10 high side per phase. It's been confirmed from quasarzone Korea.

It's not the best thing ever but if you can use the wifi and like RGB it isn't a bad buy vs an ASUS STRIX. It's roughly on par with the Z370 Pro Carbon as well, since the Pro Carbon has a plastic cover over the VRM. I can't recommend it over a Taichi for example, however.

Gaming 7 review at gdm japan

http://www.gdm.or.jp/review/2017/1101/241000/2/

Review of Z370 Pro Carbon AC showing layout
https://elchapuzasinformatico.com/2017/10/msi-z370-gaming-pro-carbon-ac-review/3/

5.3GHz i7-8700k on Fatal1ty K6
http://www.vmodtech.com/th/article/asrock-fatal1ty-z370-gaming-k6-review/page/9


----------



## monitorhero

Thanks for the explanation Alpha. My head is literally spinning







. I can't decide between the Taichi and Aorus Gaming 7 (performance seems to be on the low end in most tests non-oced), maybe the Hero as well (but lacking DualBios). What would you do?


----------



## Exilon

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *monitorhero*
> 
> Thanks for the explanation Alpha. My head is literally spinning
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> . I can't decide between the Taichi and Aorus Gaming 7 (performance seems to be on the low end in most tests non-oced), maybe the Hero as well (but lacking DualBios). What would you do?


Gaming 7 performance is on the low end because unlike Asus boards it doesn't overclock out of the box. It's not difficult to dial up uncore and core frequencies to match.


----------



## monitorhero

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Exilon*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *monitorhero*
> 
> Thanks for the explanation Alpha. My head is literally spinning
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> . I can't decide between the Taichi and Aorus Gaming 7 (performance seems to be on the low end in most tests non-oced), maybe the Hero as well (but lacking DualBios). What would you do?
> 
> 
> 
> Gaming 7 performance is on the low end because unlike Asus boards it doesn't overclock out of the box. It's not difficult to dial up uncore and core frequencies to match.
Click to expand...

Do you think oc3d and https://us.hardware.info/reviews/7605/intel-z370-motherboards-round-up-17-times-coffee-lake didn't take that into consideration. Especially when oc3d specifically mentions MCE in his benchmarks?


----------



## AlphaC

I like the clean look of the Taichi (unobstructed airflow) , dual LAN with teaming, the dual BIOs supposedly has a jumper switch (Gaming 7 missing a BIOs switch), 4333Mhz memory QVL if you decide to start overclocking memory albeit for minimal gains, plus the board is on Silicon Lottery QVL so if you buy a binned chip then you can complain







.

It's also cheaper in most regions. In Asia , the Gaming 7 costs as much as a Fatal1ty Pro i7 or Asus ROG Hero.

I'd go with the Gaming 7 if you like RGB or want the audio advantages of WIMA caps & ESS AMP instead of the Ti NE5532 (in hardware.info's review there was essentially no difference). It's better for bench table setups due to the power/reset buttons and extra fan headers. It has efficiency for low power loads due to fewer phases using Powerstages instead of dual channel mosfets. The BIOS is more basic but sometimes basic is good because people don't need every single setting if all they want is to up the multiplier and set the voltage and LLC and have it up and running. The Killer LAN is a compatibility problem sometimes (especially in Linux), so that's something to keep in mind as well.
* Another thing to note if you run custom water is if you get a Gigabyte board that is high end it is more likely to get a monoblock (from EK at least) than an Asrock board. Asrock has blocks from Bitspower but not every board has gotten a monoblock.

Both are great top tier boards.


----------



## Exilon

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *monitorhero*
> 
> Do you think oc3d and https://us.hardware.info/reviews/7605/intel-z370-motherboards-round-up-17-times-coffee-lake didn't take that into consideration. Especially when oc3d specifically mentions MCE in his benchmarks?


LOL no they didn't take that into consideration at all. Look at the Cinebench spread. ~1430 is the Intel reference score.

https://us.hardware.info/reviews/7605/14/intel-z370-motherboards-round-up-17-times-coffee-lake-benchmarks-cpu

https://us.hardware.info/reviews/7605/17/intel-z370-motherboards-round-up-17-times-coffee-lake-power-consumption

OC3d also dinged the Gaming 7 for underperforming vs Asus in overclocked tests... but if you look at the CPU-Z it shows that Asus has the uncore at 4.4 GHz and Gigabyte has theirs at 3.7 GHz Intel stock.

https://overclock3d.net/reviews/cpu_mainboard/gigabyte_z370_aorus_gaming_7_review/2

https://overclock3d.net/reviews/cpu_mainboard/asus_z370_maximus_x_hero_review/5

It's because of reviewers like these that we're having this MCE arms race between OEMs now.


----------



## unkletom

Everyone knows Asus plays dirty paying review sites to get that extra edge. They spend too much money on shills and marketing.


----------



## monitorhero

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AlphaC*
> 
> I like the clean look of the Taichi (unobstructed airflow) , dual LAN with teaming, the dual BIOs supposedly has a jumper switch (Gaming 7 missing a BIOs switch), 4333Mhz memory QVL if you decide to start overclocking memory albeit for minimal gains, plus the board is on Silicon Lottery QVL so if you buy a binned chip then you can complain
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .
> 
> It's also cheaper in most regions. In Asia , the Gaming 7 costs as much as a Fatal1ty Pro i7 or Asus ROG Hero.
> 
> I'd go with the Gaming 7 if you like RGB or want the audio advantages of WIMA caps & ESS AMP instead of the Ti NE5532 (in hardware.info's review there was essentially no difference). It's better for bench table setups due to the power/reset buttons and extra fan headers. It has efficiency for low power loads due to fewer phases using Powerstages instead of dual channel mosfets. The BIOS is more basic but sometimes basic is good because people don't need every single setting if all they want is to up the multiplier and set the voltage and LLC and have it up and running. The Killer LAN is a compatibility problem sometimes (especially in Linux), so that's something to keep in mind as well.
> * Another thing to note if you run custom water is if you get a Gigabyte board that is high end it is more likely to get a monoblock (from EK at least) than an Asrock board. Asrock has blocks from Bitspower but not every board has gotten a monoblock.
> 
> Both are great top tier boards.


Thanks Alpha. That was really helpful. I guess I will go with the Taichi again. It's also a lot cheaper here 207 vs 264€. Hopefully everything works fine with my hardware.

@Exilon: you are probably right. didn't see that


----------



## lb_felipe

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AlphaC*
> 
> I like the clean look of the Taichi (unobstructed airflow) , dual LAN with teaming, the dual BIOs supposedly has a jumper switch (Gaming 7 missing a BIOs switch), 4333Mhz memory QVL if you decide to start overclocking memory albeit for minimal gains, plus the board is on Silicon Lottery QVL so if you buy a binned chip then you can complain
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .
> 
> It's also cheaper in most regions. In Asia , the Gaming 7 costs as much as a Fatal1ty Pro i7 or Asus ROG Hero.
> 
> I'd go with the Gaming 7 if you like RGB or want the audio advantages of WIMA caps & ESS AMP instead of the Ti NE5532 (in hardware.info's review there was essentially no difference). It's better for bench table setups due to the power/reset buttons and extra fan headers. It has efficiency for low power loads due to fewer phases using Powerstages instead of dual channel mosfets. The BIOS is more basic but sometimes basic is good because people don't need every single setting if all they want is to up the multiplier and set the voltage and LLC and have it up and running. The Killer LAN is a compatibility problem sometimes (especially in Linux), so that's something to keep in mind as well.
> * Another thing to note if you run custom water is if you get a Gigabyte board that is high end it is more likely to get a monoblock (from EK at least) than an Asrock board. Asrock has blocks from Bitspower but not every board has gotten a monoblock.
> 
> Both are great top tier boards.


Let me add another theoretical advantage of Taich over Aorus: Fan control.

In the hysteresis part, ASRock allows split of time setting between "step up" and "step down" (I just saw that on other brand else, which is MSI). That is, you may want the fan speed to remain longer when temperatures drop, but when they rise, you may want a faster reaction causing the speed to rise soon.

I miss that feature on my ASUS PRIME X370-PRO.


----------



## RustySpoons

I've just ordered the following...
Hero X
Strix I
Corsair rgb 32gb (4x8gb) ddr4 3333mhz
Corsair red Led 16gb (2x8gb) ddr4 3000mhz
8700k
8400

With the 32gb ram, I ordered the 3333mhz pack as it's the same price as the 3200mhz, any reason to go for the 3200mhz? Not too late to change my order.


----------



## Techhog

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RustySpoons*
> 
> That's a bit concerning, fair play to Tom for highlighting a lot of these Z370 board issues.
> I'm eyeing up a few ITX Boards for my HTPC build, can't find any info on Gigabytes ITX offerings so hope they are not affected as well.


I wonder if Gigabyte is going to get angry with him and try to convince everyone he's a hack who doesn't know what he's talking about like Asus did.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *lb_felipe*
> 
> Let me add another theoretical advantage of Taich over Aorus: Fan control.
> 
> In the hysteresis part, ASRock allows split of time setting between "step up" and "step down" (I just saw that on other brand else, which is MSI). That is, you may want the fan speed to remain longer when temperatures drop, but when they rise, you may want a faster reaction causing the speed to rise soon.
> 
> I miss that feature on my ASUS PRIME X370-PRO.


Asus has that feature too, though it might be AI Suite only.


----------



## Shadoww

So is the Asrock Z370 Taichi worth $43 more after tax than the Asrock Z370 Fatal1ty K6? I'm thinking yes if Z370 will support the future 8 core Intel chips (still a rumor)... Ugh I know $43 is not the end of the world for me but I don't want to spend the extra for a "dead platform". I know the main difference is wifi/bluetooth. I most likely won't use those features for awhile, if ever. Also, I can get the Gigabyte Gaming 7 for $27 more than the Taichi and $70 more than the K6.

There's so few reviews with the lack of 8700Ks!


----------



## scracy

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *unkletom*
> 
> Everyone knows Asus plays dirty paying review sites to get that extra edge. They spend too much money on shills and marketing.


Based on what evidence?


----------



## ringl

Hello,

After reading this thread multiple times i nailed it down to Asrocks Fatality Z370 Professional Gaming i7 (i don´t like the Style of the Taichi...) and the Asus Maximus Hero X, but can´t decide between them....









Asrock is giving you more connectivity for the money, does have 2 extra-sata ports and 3x m.2 (the third one seems to be shared with no sata ports or whatever reading the manual), the VRM-section seem to be top-notch, but i´m a little afraid of the bios and the built-quality in general on Asrock, never had an Asrock before, the last boards i got were from Asus (z87) and Gigabyte(x48). Also it seems to exist two Layouts on the VRM-Section on th Taichi and the Fatal1ty Pro, one with the Fairchild-Chips and one with the Sinopower, is that right?

Does the Asus Maximus Hero X compared to the Fatal1ty Pro have better VRM-components? Is it worth the 50€ more then the Asrock here in europe?

Also the Maximus Hero X has the ASM 2142 (i think for USB 3.0/3.1), other boards have the ASM3142 controller, is there any downside on this? Also there seem to be no sharing with the sata ports if you use a m.2 on x4 on the first Slot on the Hero if i read the manual correct?

Thanks in advance


----------



## RustySpoons

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ringl*
> 
> Hello,
> 
> After reading this thread multiple times i nailed it down to Asrocks Fatality Z370 Professional Gaming i7 (i don´t like the Style of the Taichi...) and the Asus Maximus Hero X, but can´t decide between them....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Asrock is giving you more connectivity for the money, does have 2 extra-sata ports and 3x m.2 (the third one seems to be shared with no sata ports or whatever reading the manual), the VRM-section seem to be top-notch, but i´m a little afraid of the bios and the built-quality in general on Asrock, never had an Asrock before, the last boards i got were from Asus (z87) and Gigabyte(x48). Also it seems to exist two Layouts on the VRM-Section on th Taichi and the Fatal1ty Pro, one with the Fairchild-Chips and one with the Sinopower, is that right?
> 
> Does the Asus Maximus Hero X compared to the Fatal1ty Pro have better VRM-components? Is it worth the 50€ more then the Asrock here in europe?
> 
> Also the Maximus Hero X has the ASM 2142 (i think for USB 3.0/3.1), other boards have the ASM3142 controller, is there any downside on this? Also there seem to be no sharing with the sata ports if you use a m.2 on x4 on the first Slot on the Hero if i read the manual correct?
> 
> Thanks in advance


The pricing is all over then place with these boards, in the UK the Hero X is usually cheaper than the Fatal1ty i7 Pro. Looking at the range of boards and pricing it seems you can't use price as a guide to quality.

Strange if Asus using the ASM2142 as AsMedia is Asus, you would think they would have the latest chip on one of their boards.


----------



## ringl

Yeah, i´m finding it strange myself, in the review about the Hero on Guru3d he says there is an Asmedia 3142 for USB 3.1 -> http://www.guru3d.com/articles-pages/asus-rog-maximus-x-hero-review,3.html

Maybe there is an error in the manual for the Board-layout on the Hero (c+p maybe from z270 modell???)
The picture for board-layout in the manual (under 1.1.2-Motherboard-layout) says clearly "ASM 2142", but i´ve read there is only 5% in performance difference and the new 3142 consumes lesser power...but still litlle bit confusing.

Still leaving the question if the VRM-section on the Asus Hero X is worse, same league or even better then on the Asrock Fatal1ty Pro...


----------



## monitorhero

I am quoting AlphaC here, regarding the ASM2142/3142:

Quote:


> *AlphaC*
> 
> ASM3142 supposedly has less power consumption and more bandwidth
> https://www.msi.com/news/detail/ydvBPhm0G70B4oetYK5KZijB9EVNwgKrc9r37WfXcfNsMlcnBY6fSpPNQIDiFDu57cRGw6mDuX-dydMOz-C93Q~~


Not sure if you going to notice the difference. But it definitely is the ASM2142 from the pictures I've seen.

@lb_felipe I never used custom fan curves, so I probably wouldn't know what to do. The Aorus has 40€ steam giftcard coming with it. So its actually a little cheaper if you sell it. I am still undecided. Not sure if Asrock boards are responsible for my bad VR latencies.


----------



## urs1

Do you think the GB Gaming 7 with an i7 8700k can be kept with a Scythe Mugen 5 PCGH Edition with at most 5 GHz overclock on all cores ( at ~80 degrees) ?

https://us.hardware.info/reviews/7369/scythe-mugen-5-pcgh-edition-review-our-new-favourite

No delidding.

Delidding should lower by 20 =25 degrees at most probably.


----------



## moustang

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *urs1*
> 
> No delidding.
> 
> Delidding should lower by 20 =25 degrees at most probably.


Delidding does more than just reduce temperatures.

The TIM used in Intel CPUs breaks down over time. Rapidly if the CPU is overclocked. My 4790k @ 4.6GHZ lasted less than 3 years before the TIM had broken down to the point that the CPU was hitting 95C and throttling, even with water cooling. Delidding and replacing the TIM dropped the temps back down to 53C under full load.

So the immediate effect is a drop in temperature, but there is a long term effect as well as the liquid metal TIM should last a lot longer than the stuff Intel uses as well.


----------



## pion

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *moustang*
> 
> My 4790k @ 4.6GHZ lasted less than 3 years before the TIM had broken down...


Hwat!?


----------



## moustang

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *pion*
> 
> Hwat!?


That is correct. In less than 3 years the Intel TIM had turned into what I would describe as dried plaster under the IHS. When I went to remove it, it was bone dry and broke off in flakes and powder.

Prior to that I had never delidded a CPU before. I only tried delidding to fix the problem after reading this:

http://www.overclock.net/t/1636953/i7-4790k-the-most-bizarre-overheating-issue-ever

Clearly I'm not alone with these results.


----------



## monitorhero

Right now my shopping cart is switching between the Aorus 7 and Taichi. I still like the extra USB Port on the Aorus at the back but the overheating problems are really concerning.

http://techreport.com/review/32669/gigabyte-z370-aorus-gaming-7-motherboard-reviewed/5

Even if I would tighten the heatsink it still seems like a problem. I still think the X370 Taichi is responsible for my latency problems with Oculus Rift so I am worried of buying another Asrock.

Also the Aorus 7 has USB DAC-UP which might give a better signal...but then there is the price point again. But I doubt that Asrock uses my different components on the Z370 Taichi compared to the X370 Taichi


----------



## roybotnik

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *moustang*
> 
> That is correct. In less than 3 years the Intel TIM had turned into what I would describe as dried plaster under the IHS. When I went to remove it, it was bone dry and broke off in flakes and powder.
> 
> Prior to that I had never delidded a CPU before. I only tried delidding to fix the problem after reading this:
> 
> http://www.overclock.net/t/1636953/i7-4790k-the-most-bizarre-overheating-issue-ever
> 
> Clearly I'm not alone with these results.


I had identical results. My 4790k was left unused for a few months after buying a R7 1800x, until I put it into a new build a couple months ago. After putting it back together, I was hitting 90C+ under load at stock settings with a 212 evo. I delidded and the TIM was like plastic. Now running at 5ghz under an AIO and generally topping out at 65C under load.


----------



## bl4ckdot

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *monitorhero*
> 
> Right now my shopping cart is switching between the Aorus 7 and Taichi. I still like the extra USB Port on the Aorus at the back but the overheating problems are really concerning.
> 
> http://techreport.com/review/32669/gigabyte-z370-aorus-gaming-7-motherboard-reviewed/5
> 
> Even if I would tighten the heatsink it still seems like a problem. I still think the X370 Taichi is responsible for my latency problems with Oculus Rift so I am worried of buying another Asrock.
> Also the Aorus 7 has USB DAC-UP which might give a better signal...but then there is the price point again. But I doubt that Asrock uses my different components on the Z370 Taichi compared to the X370 Taichi


USB DAC-UP really makes me wonder how useful it is. I have an high-end USB dac, and I'm not sure if I would ear the difference, it most probably is marketing at this point... (sorry for the off topic)


----------



## moustang

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *monitorhero*
> 
> Right now my shopping cart is switching between the Aorus 7 and Taichi. I still like the extra USB Port on the Aorus at the back but the overheating problems are really concerning.
> 
> http://techreport.com/review/32669/gigabyte-z370-aorus-gaming-7-motherboard-reviewed/5
> 
> Even if I would tighten the heatsink it still seems like a problem. I still think the X370 Taichi is responsible for my latency problems with Oculus Rift so I am worried of buying another Asrock.
> Also the Aorus 7 has USB DAC-UP which might give a better signal...but then there is the price point again. But I doubt that Asrock uses my different components on the Z370 Taichi compared to the X370 Taichi


I don't know how widespread the heating problems on the Aorus Gaming 7 are, but it's not a widespread problem. I only know of that one reviewer who had a problem and maybe two people here. Quite a few others I talked to had no problem at all.

Even if you have the overheating problem with the VRM, you can replace the thermal pads under the heatsink for less than $15 and that extremely well. I know two people who have done this and their VRM never exceeds 55C even with high overclocks.

As far as the Taichi goes, I'm not sure how much I would blame the motherboard manufacturer for your latency problems. It may be a problem with the chipset or some other components not playing well together. There are confirmed problems that AMD has admitted to with the X370 chipset and Nvidia GPUs. Your latency issues may have nothing to do with Tiachi specifically and be a chipset issue instead.


----------



## roybotnik

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bl4ckdot*
> 
> USB DAC-UP really makes me wonder how useful it is. I have an high-end USB dac, and I'm not sure if I would ear the difference, it most probably is marketing at this point... (sorry for the off topic)


I'm always skeptical of board makers screwing around with USB. My old Z97 motherboard has 'extra power' for a few ports for the same reason, and I've had nothing but USB problems. In fact, if I disable the extra power in the bios...all of my ports stop working entirely. Sigh. This was the 2nd board after RMAing years ago.


----------



## monitorhero

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *moustang*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *monitorhero*
> 
> Right now my shopping cart is switching between the Aorus 7 and Taichi. I still like the extra USB Port on the Aorus at the back but the overheating problems are really concerning.
> 
> http://techreport.com/review/32669/gigabyte-z370-aorus-gaming-7-motherboard-reviewed/5
> 
> Even if I would tighten the heatsink it still seems like a problem. I still think the X370 Taichi is responsible for my latency problems with Oculus Rift so I am worried of buying another Asrock.
> Also the Aorus 7 has USB DAC-UP which might give a better signal...but then there is the price point again. But I doubt that Asrock uses my different components on the Z370 Taichi compared to the X370 Taichi
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know how widespread the heating problems on the Aorus Gaming 7 are, but it's not a widespread problem. I only know of that one reviewer who had a problem and maybe two people here. Quite a few others I talked to had no problem at all.
> 
> Even if you have the overheating problem with the VRM, you can replace the thermal pads under the heatsink for less than $15 and that extremely well. I know two people who have done this and their VRM never exceeds 55C even with high overclocks.
> 
> As far as the Taichi goes, I'm not sure how much I would blame the motherboard manufacturer for your latency problems. It may be a problem with the chipset or some other components not playing well together. There are confirmed problems that AMD has admitted to with the X370 chipset and Nvidia GPUs. Your latency issues may have nothing to do with Tiachi specifically and be a chipset issue instead.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the info. I think I give the Taichi another try. If not the Gigabyte it is.

@blackdot and roybotnik: That made me change my mind. Hopefully I have less troubles with the Intel chipset and non USB DAC-UP


----------



## monitorhero

What I dont like about the Taichi is that MCE is auto enabled. So all the benchmarks on the internet are not really meaningful that way. It performs very well but I wonder how the scores would be without MCE on Tweaktowns test for example.


----------



## AlphaC

CPU limits.











https://3dnews.ru/960568/page-2.html
(Z370 Gaming 7)

http://www.ocstation.com/memside/mother-board/2197-gigabyte-z370-aorus-gaming-7-motherboard-review?showall=&start=7
5.3GHz on water



Cinebench stable 5.4GHz , not even delidded

Z370 K6
http://forum.asrock.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=6351&PN=1&title=z370-gaming-i7-build-tech-yes-city

MSI Pro Carbon confirmation NTMFS4C029N + NTMFS4C024N.
https://www.overclockers.ua/motherboard/msi-z370-gaming-pro-carbon-ac/

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *http://www.pcgameshardware.de/Mainboard-Hardware-154107/Tests/Kaufberatung-Intel-AMD-2066-1151-2011-v3-AM4-681325/*
> Incidentally, although the latter covers parts of the voltage converter cooler, the Z370 Extreme4 in the PCGH test (edition 12/17) achieved good voltage transformer temperatures of around 60 ° C (normalized to 20 ° C ambient temperature) - at least if you manually limit the power consumption in the UEFI 95 W is set. Although the mainboard does not overheat with the factory settings, it could get a little too warm with up to 160 W of power consumption


P.S. if anyone has the patience to watch youtube videos (I really don't), try to see if any reviews mention VRM temps or have VRM shots at all.


----------



## mouacyk

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *monitorhero*
> 
> What I dont like about the Taichi is that MCE is auto enabled. So all the benchmarks on the internet are not really meaningful that way. It performs very well but I wonder how the scores would be without MCE on Tweaktowns test for example.


For the price and VRM quality, I'm not sure auto MCE is worth complaining about. You'll get much better results from manual overclocking anyway. I can understand that popular press review results will be (were) skewed, but knowing that already, you can always look for independent results as a baseline for MCE being disabled.


----------



## Exilon

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bl4ckdot*
> 
> USB DAC-UP really makes me wonder how useful it is. I have an high-end USB dac, and I'm not sure if I would ear the difference, it most probably is marketing at this point... (sorry for the off topic)


It's... ok? My Creative G5 gets noisy at initialization after a cold boot and I've had to do some rain dance to reset the noise floor. It doesn't seem to happen on the USB DAC-UP ports, but using the G5 on the USB DAC-UP ports results in a loud pop in the headphones when the USB ports power up.


----------



## monitorhero

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AlphaC*
> 
> CPU limits.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://3dnews.ru/960568/page-2.html
> (Z370 Gaming 7)
> 
> 
> 
> Cinebench stable 5.4GHz , not even delidded
> 
> Z370 K6
> http://forum.asrock.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=6351&PN=1&title=z370-gaming-i7-build-tech-yes-city


Woah impressive. So the K6 has the same VRM as the Taichi right?

But I read there are versions with Sinopower and some with Fairchild. How do I notice them?


----------



## urs1

*Are these the top boards for 5 GHz overclock ? :* (Europe prices with +19% VAT)

1. GB Gaming 7 : 263.3 euro | 306.5 dollars
2. Taichi : unavailable
3. K6 : 182.22 euro | 214.4 dollars
4. Extreme4 : 159.5 euro | 185.7 dollars (is there anything wrong with this one ? VRM, mosfet etc.)

*P.S :*
*From Review for K6:*
Cons: Audio interference from rear speaker (!!) when mouse moves
Placement of CPU fan header behind a heatsink (??)

Audio interference is a deal-breaker for me. Sounds like cheap electronics. I'll work with the manufacturer to see if the issue can get resolved but I'm not holding by breath.


----------



## monitorhero

Is a 500W Straight Power 10 sufficient for a 5ghz overclock with the Taichi @all


----------



## Telstar

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *moustang*
> 
> I don't know how widespread the heating problems on the Aorus Gaming 7 are, but it's not a widespread problem. I only know of that one reviewer who had a problem and maybe two people here. Quite a few others I talked to had no problem at all.


A guy on an Italian forum i follow had this issue as well and returned or rma the board. So it's not that isolated unfortunately.


----------



## demone

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Shadoww*
> 
> I'm thinking yes if Z370 will support the future 8 core Intel chips (still a rumor)...


Which are these rumors ?

I think is clear that Z370 will not support 8 core Intel chips.


----------



## Digitalwolf

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Telstar*
> 
> A guy on an Italian forum i follow had this issue as well and returned or rma the board. So it's not that isolated unfortunately.


I had to go back through the thread to even find what this "heating problem" was even in reference to... and I've had a gaming 7 since the day after you could order them. I haven't had the VRM heat issues mentioned in the one review with my 8700K oc'd....

I will admit that I do not use software/onboard sensors to read the VRM temps... I have a temp gun. Which from my experience is pretty accurate when it comes to temps.

That's not to say there might not be some QC issues and then add in the fact that some of the onboard sensors have been rather wacky on the Gigabyte Z370 boards....


----------



## akumouu

So I know theres been a lot of discussion in this thread already on the topic but im about to get my CPU and im still on the fence between the Hero, Taichi and Gaming 7. In terms of VRM the Gaming 7 seems excellent but im just vary wary of Gigabyte's QC.


----------



## urs1

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *monitorhero*
> 
> Is a 500W Straight Power 10 sufficient for a 5ghz overclock with the Taichi @all


I will use a *Corsair RM750i*. You can buy that also.

If you want a GPU too, you need 750W as base, because you don't want to use 100% of power supply.

500W only for the CPU + motherboard + RAM + HDD + SSD
Even then 650 W is better.
If you add a GPU later 750W is minimum.


----------



## monitorhero

I already have a Gtx 1080. I never heard of such high power consumption. I just bought that PSU, would be ****ty to sell it again.

There is a calculator: https://www.bequiet.com/en/psucalculator

With all my components it is still not demanding more than 365W.


----------



## Techhog

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *monitorhero*
> 
> I already have a Gtx 1080. I never heard of such high power consumption. I just bought that PSU, would be ****ty to sell it again.
> 
> There is a calculator: https://www.bequiet.com/en/psucalculator
> 
> With all my components it is still not demanding more than 365W.


The thing is that an overclock can increase power consumption quite a bit. You'd need a very good chip to safely hit 5GHz, but even then you'd be at like 450W. I don't think that it's a good idea to have less than 150W of headroom if you can avoid it, personally.

Edit: Wait, I read 1080 Ti. With a 1080 you might be able to make it, but it's still cutting a little closer than I'd personally like. I think you'll be okay and that Urs1 is exaggerating heavily, but 600W probably would have been a little better as something to keep for the long term.


----------



## scracy

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *monitorhero*
> 
> I already have a Gtx 1080. I never heard of such high power consumption. I just bought that PSU, would be ****ty to sell it again.
> 
> There is a calculator: https://www.bequiet.com/en/psucalculator
> 
> With all my components it is still not demanding more than 365W.


Did you tick the overclock box when you used the calculator? I think 650W would be the minimum you would need ideally 750W


----------



## monitorhero

Yes, I ticked it. Damn I guess I don't overclock then because I don't wanna return the PSU again


----------



## scracy

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *monitorhero*
> 
> Yes, I ticked it. Damn I guess I don't overclock then because I don't wanna return the PSU again


Personally dont cheap out on a PSU it is probably the single most critical component in your P.C and can cause all sorts of issues if it is "cheap". Buy something like a 750 watt Corsair RMx or RMi or perhaps a Seasonic Prime. It never hurts to go 100-150W above your worst case scenario, you dont want the PSU operating at close to 100%


----------



## monitorhero

Yeah I just used Seasonics PSU calculator and it is giving me 580W recommendation. They have a big lineup Gold, Platinum, Titanium etc. Should 750W be enough then?

https://geizhals.de/seasonic-prime-platinum-750w-atx-2-4-ssr-750pd-a1553514.html?hloc=de

https://geizhals.de/seasonic-prime-titanium-750w-atx-2-4-ssr-750td-a1468794.html

Do you think it makes a difference if I buy the platinum?


----------



## scracy

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *monitorhero*
> 
> Yeah I just used Seasonics PSU calculator and it is giving me 580W recommendation. They have a big lineup Gold, Platinum, Titanium etc. but I read some customer ratings which aren't very convincing. Same goes for Corsair :/. Any other recommendations? Should 700W be enough then?


No not really the ones I suggested are amongst the best PSU's money can buy, if you have any doubts have a look at this link and work out what is best for your needs and budget http://www.jonnyguru.com/
I would go 750 Watt in your case to allow you to factor in any possible future upgrades, you dont want to be buying a new PSU every time you rebuild or upgrade your P.C. Basically allow around 20 to 25% more power than you need as a minimum







Platinum is only an efficiency rating it is not really an indicator of PSU component quality.


----------



## monitorhero

Ok. I can still return my PSU. Bought it a week ago. I am going for the Seasonic then. But Platinum or Titanium? Just read this review: https://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/Seasonic/Prime_750/13.html You think the Platinum will be just as good?


----------



## scracy

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *monitorhero*
> 
> Ok. I can still return my PSU. Bought it a week ago. I am going for the Seasonic then. But Platinum or Titanium? Just read this review: https://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/Seasonic/Prime_750/13.html You think the Platinum will be just as good?


Platinum/Titanium is just an efficiency rating it is not really a reflection of the quality of components used in the PSU so either would be a good choice


----------



## spddmn24

My VRM hit 67c in realbench with the gaming 7 @ 5.1 ghz 1.3 vcore. Not sure what it would hit in prime since I don't stress test with it or use anything that loads the cpu as hard as prime. The vrm heatsinks stay pretty cool to the touch so I think it's just cheap thermal pads. Probably an easy fix, but it shouldn't be needed on a $250 board. I have some 17 W/mK fujipoply thermal pads on order that I'll throw on as long as I don't have to take the board out the swap them out just to see what they do.


----------



## Exilon

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *spddmn24*
> 
> My VRM hit 67c in realbench with the gaming 7 @ 5.1 ghz 1.3 vcore. Not sure what it would hit in prime since I don't stress test with it or use anything that loads the cpu as hard as prime. The vrm heatsinks stay pretty cool to the touch so I think it's just cheap thermal pads. Probably an easy fix, but it shouldn't be needed on a $250 board. I have some 17 W/mK fujipoply thermal pads on order that I'll throw on as long as I don't have to take the board out the swap them out just to see what they do.


I got a 30% drop in deltaT and hotter heatsinks when swapped the stock ones out for the fujipoly 11W/mK.

http://www.overclock.net/t/1638955/z370-z390-vrm-discussion-thread/570#post_26422068

I also found the GBT Gaming 7 also reads the package power too low by 50%. So 120W in HWInfo/XTU means roughly 180W actual.


----------



## moustang

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Telstar*
> 
> A guy on an Italian forum i follow had this issue as well and returned or rma the board. So it's not that isolated unfortunately.


So one guy in Italy, that you've never even met, suddenly proves it's a widespread problem?

How many Z370 Gaming 7 boards have been sold world-wide? How many are bad? What percentage?

I'm not saying that there are no problems at all. Quite the opposite, I expect a certain percentage of failures from any line of computer hardware no matter who makes it, especially when it comes to the very first production run of that product. But I'm not willing to claim it's a widespread problem without some facts to support it, and one or two guys here, one web reviewer, and one guy in Italy does not make a widespread problem.

And I happen to have one of these boards. My 8700k should be showing up tomorrow. Even if I run into the problem myself I won't call the problem widespread. It's far too early with far too small of a group of complainers to say that.


----------



## spddmn24

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Exilon*
> 
> I got a 30% drop in deltaT and hotter heatsinks when swapped the stock ones out for the fujipoly 11W/mK.
> 
> http://www.overclock.net/t/1638955/z370-z390-vrm-discussion-thread/570#post_26422068
> 
> I also found the GBT Gaming 7 also reads the package power too low by 50%. So 120W in HWInfo/XTU means roughly 180W actual.


I just checked my UPS power draw and it went up 130 watts when my cpu power went from 6 watts idle to 118 watts, so it seems accurate in my case. Are you running the latest beta version? Is there anything in the way of pulling the vrm heatsinks? I can access the screws with it in the case, but I'm not sure if the io cover would be in the way or if the rgb header is hidden somewhere in there.


----------



## Exilon

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *spddmn24*
> 
> I just checked my UPS power draw and it went up 130 watts when my cpu power went from 6 watts idle to 118 watts, so it seems accurate in my case. Are you running the latest beta version? Is there anything in the way of pulling the vrm heatsinks? I can access the screws with it in the case, but I'm not sure if the io cover would be in the way or if the rgb header is hidden somewhere in there.


Interesting. I'm running F4a. I wonder what's causing the variance between the boards...

To remove the VRM heatsink you need to remove the shroud as well, but that should've been clear from the photos







. You'll shred the pads otherwise trying to maneuver the heatsink around the shroud.

The shroud's LEDs are wired serially with the VRM LEDs, so keep that in mind when planning the disassembly. I removed the shroud altogether in my build because I needed the clearance for my radiator.


----------



## roona

I'm getting some pretty terrible VRM temps on my Taichi. 100C on the back of the board with my temperature gun, under P95 small FFT FMA. Running my 8700k at 5.0/1.328V/-2 offset, 95C CPU, 240W CPU package power and 245W idle/load delta at the wall. I think the VRM heatsink is just getting choked to death by my CPU cooler and all of its fans on top of the VRM heatsink, but not blowing at it. Don't suppose anyone has a good solution?


----------



## AlphaC

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *roona*
> 
> I'm getting some pretty terrible VRM temps on my Taichi. 100C on the back of the board with my temperature gun, under P95 small FFT FMA. Running my 8700k at 5.0/1.328V/-2 offset, 95C CPU, 240W CPU package power and 245W idle/load delta at the wall. I think the VRM heatsink is just getting choked to death by my CPU cooler and all of its fans on top of the VRM heatsink, but not blowing at it. Don't suppose anyone has a good solution?


Did you delid? CPU shouldn't be hitting 95°C if you did.

If you didn't the CPU is probably transferring heat to the PCB via the socket. Copper has less thermal resistance than whatever TIM Intel is using

Also make sure you aren't recirculating hot air. Should have front to back airflow if possible, with the exhaust going out the back

What temps do you get in Aida64, Realbench, OCCT and OCCT with AVX?


----------



## ReDXfiRe

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AlphaC*
> 
> Steven's Taichi review https://www.tweaktown.com/reviews/8381/asrock-z370-taichi-motherboard-review/index3.html
> 
> Hardwareluxx's review of MSI Godlike https://www.hardwareluxx.de/index.php/artikel/hardware/mainboards/44598-msi-z370-godlike-gaming-im-test-high-end-platine-mit-drei-lan-ports.html?start=1
> 
> ----
> 
> Some thermal shots from http://diy.pconline.com.cn/1017/10179400_2.html
> 
> (above) ASUS TUF Z370-PRO GAMING , roasting as expected
> 
> 
> (above) Gigabyte Gaming 5
> 
> 
> (above) MSI Pro Carbon
> 
> 
> (above) iGame Z370 VULCAN X
> 
> 
> (above) Biostar GT6
> 
> 
> (Above) Asrock Fatal1ty k6
> 
> Note an aircooler worth $15 (100 yuan) was used and the author theorizes the K6 was heating from the CPU using the PCB as heatsink, rather than mosfets/chokes/inductors:
> *Gigabyte Gaming 5 might be OK*
> 
> Pugetsystems thermal images (usually they don't overclock) , via https://www.pugetsystems.com/parts/Motherboard/Gigabyte-Z370-AORUS-5-12308
> https://www.pugetsystems.com/parts/thermal_images/Motherboard/Gigabyte-Z370-AORUS-5-12308
> Fractal Design R5 case, EVGA GTX 1080
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> same thing but with a fan mounted at middle of the case to cool GPU
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> setup with GTX 1060 and no fan at middle of case
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!


I'm trying to find those images from this URL http://diy.pconline.com.cn/1017/10179400_2.html but I'm unable to find them for some reason. Those thermal shots with which CPU were they tested under what stress program/voltage?


----------



## AlphaC

I think the review was moved but it's been mirrored at http://tech.ifeng.com/a/20171025/44728408_0.shtml


----------



## roona

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AlphaC*
> 
> Did you delid? CPU shouldn't be hitting 95°C if you did.
> 
> If you didn't the CPU is probably transferring heat to the PCB via the socket. Copper has less thermal resistance than whatever TIM Intel is using
> 
> Also make sure you aren't recirculating hot air. Should have front to back airflow if possible, with the exhaust going out the back
> 
> What temps do you get in Aida64, Realbench, OCCT and OCCT with AVX?


I'm delidded running a Phanteks dual tower cooler. OCCT AVX does ~70C, Aida64 does ~85. Airflow in my case isn't great, but it should be passable. I think the CPU temperatures are basically as expected from my setup, just that the VRM is getting hot. How much do you think the CPU is contributing to that?


----------



## AlphaC

I don't have the answer since the only information you specified is that's it's a Taichi on Prime small FFTs with a Phanteks dual tower. If you're over 200W I'd check your fan profile as well.

You might want to try again with your side panel off. If CPU temp is better with side panel off it means you don't have good case airflow.

Also try reseating the CPU. If you delidded, did you replace the Intel TIM with something of lower thermal conductivity? If you introduced an air gap you may make the CPU temperature worse than if un-delidded.


Spoiler: Phanteks dual tower cooling potential






https://www.anandtech.com/show/9415/top-tier-cpu-air-coolers-9way-roundup-review/12


http://www.coolingtechnique.com/recensioni/air-cooling/dissipatori/935-recensione-phanteks-ph-tc14pe.html?start=6



What case are you using and what fans are in it (with orientation, fan speed)?

edit: also make sure your LLC is reasonable, use the latest BIOS


----------



## Shadoww

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *demone*
> 
> Which are these rumors ?
> 
> I think is clear that Z370 will not support 8 core Intel chips.


I was under the assumption that 8 core intel chips are a rumor since Intel has not stated Ice Lake will be 8 core. Right now 8700k competes with ryzen 1800x in multi-tasking, so maybe Intel does not see the need for an 8 core mainstream chip yet.


----------



## scracy

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Shadoww*
> 
> I was under the assumption that 8 core intel chips are a rumor since Intel has not stated Ice Lake will be 8 core. Right now 8700k competes with ryzen 1800x in multi-tasking, so maybe Intel does not see the need for an 8 core mainstream chip yet.


If Z370 did not support future 8 core CPU's then why would intel have spent a considerable amount of money changing the 1151 socket? Especially given the flack they have copped because of their constant up until now needless socket changes in the past. Asus have more or less already confirmed that changes to the socket were not needed for 8700K. Given the heat that intel are getting from AMD right now I really doubt they would risk losing any more market share with yet another socket change unless there was something around the corner we dont know about yet.


----------



## roona

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AlphaC*
> 
> I don't have the answer since the only information you specified is that's it's a Taichi on Prime small FFTs with a Phanteks dual tower. If you're over 200W I'd check your fan profile as well.
> 
> You might want to try again with your side panel off. If CPU temp is better with side panel off it means you don't have good case airflow.
> 
> Also try reseating the CPU. If you delidded, did you replace the Intel TIM with something of lower thermal conductivity? If you introduced an air gap you may make the CPU temperature worse than if un-delidded.
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Phanteks dual tower cooling potential
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.anandtech.com/show/9415/top-tier-cpu-air-coolers-9way-roundup-review/12
> 
> 
> http://www.coolingtechnique.com/recensioni/air-cooling/dissipatori/935-recensione-phanteks-ph-tc14pe.html?start=6
> 
> 
> 
> What case are you using and what fans are in it (with orientation, fan speed)?


If you want to take a look at my setup, this is it:

Case is a Define C, fans, well, there's a lot of different fans. Top exhausts are Fractal Dynamic X2 GP-12, 52 CFM max. Rear exhaust, bottom intake, and rad pull are Scythe Glidestreams, 85 CFM max. Rad pushes are Corsair SP120L, 75 CFM. And the heatsink fans are 140mm Phanteks F140HP, 85 CFM max. 8700K is delidded with CLU between die and IHS, Ceramique 2 between IHS and heatsink. Pretty sure I put it back together right - I messed it up the first time around and temps dropped 15C when I fixed it. All the fans are on 100% once CPU temps go >80C. The rad should have minimal effect on air temp, as the GPU it's attached to idles at like 8C above ambient. And like I said earlier, I hit ~95C (right on the verge of, but not quite yet throttling) at ~240W package power. Does this give you any ideas?

Oh and CPU temps do drop like 2-3 degs with the side panel off. The Define C doesn't exactly have great airflow.


----------



## lb_felipe

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Techhog*
> 
> Asus has that feature too, though it might be AI Suite only.


The hysteresis setting does not allow the split between "up step" and "down step". The time in seconds works for both circumstances. MSI and ASRock (at least this new serie which uses Z370) does.


----------



## monitorhero

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *roona*
> 
> I'm getting some pretty terrible VRM temps on my Taichi. 100C on the back of the board with my temperature gun, under P95 small FFT FMA. Running my 8700k at 5.0/1.328V/-2 offset, 95C CPU, 240W CPU package power and 245W idle/load delta at the wall. I think the VRM heatsink is just getting choked to death by my CPU cooler and all of its fans on top of the VRM heatsink, but not blowing at it. Don't suppose anyone has a good solution?


I wish you would have written that yesterday. Now my Taichi arrived and I feel like I made the wrong decision.









@alphac: do you have a diagram of how the airflow should be? I have only a cpu fan and one blowing inside the case from where the rear panel is


----------



## gbates

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *roona*
> 
> If you want to take a look at my setup, this is it:
> 
> Case is a Define C, fans, well, there's a lot of different fans. Top exhausts are Fractal Dynamic X2 GP-12, 52 CFM max. Rear exhaust, bottom intake, and rad pull are Scythe Glidestreams, 85 CFM max. Rad pushes are Corsair SP120L, 75 CFM. And the heatsink fans are 140mm Phanteks F140HP, 85 CFM max. 8700K is delidded with CLU between die and IHS, Ceramique 2 between IHS and heatsink. Pretty sure I put it back together right - I messed it up the first time around and temps dropped 15C when I fixed it. All the fans are on 100% once CPU temps go >80C. The rad should have minimal effect on air temp, as the GPU it's attached to idles at like 8C above ambient. And like I said earlier, I hit ~95C (right on the verge of, but not quite yet throttling) at ~240W package power. Does this give you any ideas?
> 
> Oh and CPU temps do drop like 2-3 degs with the side panel off. The Define C doesn't exactly have great airflow.


My thoughts:
If I had to make a guess it looks like you could have hot vrm air trapped under fans (rear and cpu rear) and there is too little direct airflow on vrm.
Have you tried removing cpu fan closest to rear exhaust?
I would also set top fans to push out more air than horizontal fans (to take more air from the top than back).


----------



## unkletom

I think it's normal for VRM to hit close to 100c when you have a package power of 240w? Which mobo runs that at like 60c. doubt any does unless it has a 5 kilogram heatsink on it with a fan.


----------



## Telstar

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *moustang*
> 
> So one guy in Italy, that you've never even met, suddenly proves it's a widespread problem?
> 
> How many Z370 Gaming 7 boards have been sold world-wide? How many are bad? What percentage?
> 
> I'm not saying that there are no problems at all. Quite the opposite, I expect a certain percentage of failures from any line of computer hardware no matter who makes it, especially when it comes to the very first production run of that product. But I'm not willing to claim it's a widespread problem without some facts to support it, and one or two guys here, one web reviewer, and one guy in Italy does not make a widespread problem.
> 
> And I happen to have one of these boards. My 8700k should be showing up tomorrow. Even if I run into the problem myself I won't call the problem widespread. It's far too early with far too small of a group of complainers to say that.


It just proves that is not reviewers samples only and not limited to one region. We have no idea what % is affected.
You cut the rest of the post nor read my previous ones. I had said before that i would still buy it but from a place where i can easily return it.


----------



## Telstar

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *scracy*
> 
> Platinum/Titanium is just an efficiency rating it is not really a reflection of the quality of components used in the PSU so either would be a good choice


Although they generally put better components on the more expensive ones, which are the titanium ones nowadays.








Btw there are many good psu from Seasonic and Corsair and 750W is the sweet spot cost/headroom wise. Even gold models are worth looking at.


----------



## scracy

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Telstar*
> 
> Although they generally put better components on the more expensive ones, which are the titanium ones nowadays.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Btw there are many good psu from Seasonic and Corsair and 750W is the sweet spot cost/headroom wise. Even gold models are worth looking at.


Corsair RMx are 80 plus gold certified







and represent good value for money. I have no idea how much he wanted to spend hence why I suggested some that were cheaper than others, personally I use Corsair AXi series which was the best you could buy at the time (5 years ago)


----------



## monitorhero

I went with the Seasonic Prime Platinum 750W. Hope it was worth it (150€)


----------



## HKPolice

Hey guys, what are your thoughts on GB Gaming 7 vs Asus Maximus X Hero? On paper the Gaming 7 seems to have a better VRM, but is there any review that compares power consumption between them?


----------



## Exilon

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *unkletom*
> 
> I think it's normal for VRM to hit close to 100c when you have a package power of 240w? Which mobo runs that at like 60c. doubt any does unless it has a 5 kilogram heatsink on it with a fan.


Gaming 7 can do that with airflow and replaced thermal pads.


----------



## pion

https://sakhtafzar.com/single-reviews/?id=48448


----------



## Sin0822

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Telstar*
> 
> It just proves that is not reviewers samples only and not limited to one region. We have no idea what % is affected.
> You cut the rest of the post nor read my previous ones. I had said before that i would still buy it but from a place where i can easily return it.


To be fair, PEBCAK honestly. That board has possibly some of the best components you can get on any Z370 motherboard, and it's heatsink has a damn small fan on it, it will spin up at 90C, so you know its at 90C when the fan spins up. If they can't work with that, IDK what to say lol.


----------



## unkletom

Changing thermal pads arent gonna do much without a fan on it i'd imagine only idle temps would be better..


----------



## monitorhero

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Sin0822*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Telstar*
> 
> It just proves that is not reviewers samples only and not limited to one region. We have no idea what % is affected.
> You cut the rest of the post nor read my previous ones. I had said before that i would still buy it but from a place where i can easily return it.
> 
> 
> 
> To be fair, PEBCAK honestly. That board has possibly some of the best components you can get on any Z370 motherboard, and it's heatsink has a damn small fan on it, it will spin up at 90C, so you know its at 90C when the fan spins up. If they can't work with that, IDK what to say lol.
Click to expand...

I wonder why people measure 100°C there. Shouldn't that fan work in that moment? Hopefully the Taichi can compete with that.

@Pion thanks for sharing that graph. So now I wonder why I got a 750W PSU haha. Did they use an overclock?


----------



## Telstar

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Sin0822*
> 
> To be fair, PEBCAK honestly. That board has possibly some of the best components you can get on any Z370 motherboard, and it's heatsink has a damn small fan on it, it will spin up at 90C, so you know its at 90C when the fan spins up. If they can't work with that, IDK what to say lol.


The issue is more serious than that. On a bad board the vrm can throttle limiting the overclock seriously.


----------



## Telstar

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *monitorhero*
> 
> I went with the Seasonic Prime Platinum 750W. Hope it was worth it (150€)


It's money well spent. Seasonic has basically never produced a bad psu. It will last u 10-15 years.

Last build was a quiet one so i went with the corsair hx850 because the fan doesnt spin at all at low loads


----------



## monitorhero

I am more worried about the nh-d15. Its so huge. Hope it doesn't break out of its socket from the weight haha


----------



## TMatzelle60

Quick Question buying my board this weekend should i get the Gigbyte Gaming 7 or the ASRock Tiachi Z370


----------



## monitorhero

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *TMatzelle60*
> 
> Quick Question buying my board this weekend should i get the Gigbyte Gaming 7 or the ASRock Tiachi Z370


Go back 2 or 3 pages. Alpha said a few things because I was about to make the same decision


----------



## TMatzelle60

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *monitorhero*
> 
> Go back 2 or 3 pages. Alpha said a few things because I was about to make the same decision


Thanks i mean they recommend ASRock but i wonder if the Gaming 7 is fine with no OC. I even looked at the ASRock i7 and like the looks of that.


----------



## Exilon

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *unkletom*
> 
> Changing thermal pads arent gonna do much without a fan on it i'd imagine only idle temps would be better..


No? The problem is that the VRMs aren't dumping heat into the heatsink because of the pads, and the PCB is doing a big chunk of the heatsinking.


----------



## RustySpoons

Parts have arrived, going to be a fun Evening/Weekend.

Just waiting for some nice TeamGroup DDR4 ram to turn up...


----------



## AlphaC

@roona

Can get a few degrees difference from something like Arctic MX-4 instead of Ceramique 2
https://overclocking.guide/thermal-paste-roundup-2015-47-products-tested-with-air-cooling-and-liquid-nitrogen-ln2/6/
http://play3r.net/reviews/cooling/best-thermal-paste-2015-update/

Corsair SP120 isn't 75CFM through a radiator, closer to 30CFM @ 1400RPM or ~ 40CFM at 2350RPM
http://www.hardware.fr/articles/874-12/corsair-af120-corsair-sp120-a1225m12s-test.html
https://us.hardware.info/product/363106/corsair-air-series-sp120-rgb-led-3-pack-+-led-controller/testresults
https://us.hardware.info/product/181434/corsair-sp120-pwm-high-pressure/testresults
https://us.hardware.info/product/181433/corsair-sp120-pwm-quiet-edition-high-static-pressure-fan/testresults

Scythe Glidestream ~ 45CFM through 30fpi radiator http://www.overclockers.com/pwm-fan-roundup-twenty-four-120-mm-case-fans-tested/

I'd experiment with the fan at the case's top/roof front position, perhaps you are starving the CPU cooler.

We have to be realistic though, without a monoblock or similar the VRM heatsinks on all these boards aren't going to be spectacular. I haven't seen any VRM heatsink with a great deal of fin area and a heatpipe. Even at 90-92% efficiency, with 240W output you're looking at 20-25W of heat that needs to be dissipated by the VRM heatsink. I've seen at least one thermal image with 90 degrees C on Prime95 on the Gigabyte Gaming 7 at 5GHz , but that was with a closed loop air cooler like you have on your GPU but with copper radiator (be quiet Silent loop probably) and it doesn't appear there was added airflow over the VRM heatsink.

The cheapest thing to do would probably be to remove the IO shield at the back , to give it more airflow (the Gaming 7 has a hex pattern cut out there) . You could probably try a different thermal paste as well , since that is not a very expensive thing to change.

Another thing to try is moving the middle and rear fan down on the CPU cooler for more airflow over the VRM heatsink.

edit: the datasheet for Gaming 7 inductor:
http://www.cooperindustries.com/content/dam/public/bussmann/Electronics/Resources/product-datasheets/Bus_Elx_DS_4341_FP1007_Series.pdf
60A chokes (the R22 one if it's like AM4) on Asrock boards http://www.cooperindustries.com/content/dam/public/bussmann/Electronics/Resources/product-datasheets/bus-elx-ds-10427-fp110v.pdf
Equivalent DCR (DC resistance) for the Asrock one is lower at 0.23 milliohms of equivalent resistance, although max current is also lower per choke.
By P=I_out^2*R we can get the power dissipation.

Edit 2: Hwbot records with LN2 / exotic cooling

Apex 7GHz http://hwbot.org/hardware/motherboards#key=rog_maximus_x_apex_
Godlike : R15 @ 6.7GHz http://hwbot.org/hardware/motherboards#key=z370_godlike_gaming
SOC FORCE LN2: 7.3GHz (6.8GHz R15) http://hwbot.org/hardware/motherboards#key=z370x_soc_force_ln2
Gaming 7 : R15 @ 5.95GHz http://hwbot.org/benchmark/cinebench_-_r15/rankings?hardwareTypeId=motherboard_322054&cores=#start=0#interval=20 , http://hwbot.org/benchmark/xtu/rankings?hardwareTypeId=motherboard_322054&cores=#start=0#interval=20

Custom Water
K6: 5.4GHz custom water http://hwbot.org/submission/3692767_guik_cinebench___r15_core_i7_8700k_1807_cb


----------



## moustang

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RustySpoons*
> 
> Parts have arrived, going to be a fun Evening/Weekend.
> 
> Just waiting for some nice TeamGroup DDR4 ram to turn up...


I've had my motherboard, RAM, cooler, delidding stuff, and all the TIM I could ever ask for just sitting home waiting.

Got the email notification that my 8700K was just delivered.

Can't wait to get home.


----------



## RustySpoons

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *moustang*
> 
> I've had my motherboard, RAM, cooler, delidding stuff, and all the TIM I could ever ask for just sitting home waiting.
> 
> Got the email notification that my 8700K was just delivered.
> 
> Can't wait to get home.


That's amazing news, I had a bit of hassle getting my 8700k, I had them deliver it to a collection place, but they were full so said won't be delivered till tomorrow!
I drove to the depot and got it myself, was worried sick something would happen to it.

What board did you go for?


----------



## spddmn24

With my gaming 7 I dropped 8-9c on the vrm in realbench with the 17 W/mK thermal pads, but ambient is up another 3-4c over the previous test. I hit 57c with an ambient around 26-27c vs 66c with an ambient around 22c. So a ~44c delta vs a ~31c delta. It will obviously be larger for those of you pushing your chips harder.


----------



## moustang

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RustySpoons*
> 
> That's amazing news, I had a bit of hassle getting my 8700k, I had them deliver it to a collection place, but they were full so said won't be delivered till tomorrow!
> I drove to the depot and got it myself, was worried sick something would happen to it.
> 
> What board did you go for?


The Gigabyte Gaming 7.

I got it on sale from Micro Center. $199.99. At that price I felt it was a good buy, but I wouldn't have paid MSRP for it.

Got my RAM on sale too. 16GB of GSkill Trident Z DDR4 3600 CL16 for $185. I'm hoping I can keep the speed and drop it down to the CL14 timings of the 3200, or close to it.

Just got done delidding my CPU. Was much more comfortable doing it this time than I was when I delidded my 4970K, and I'm happy as can be with the job I did. Now I just have to let it cure overnight and tomorrow swap out the old 4970K motherboard and cooler and put this new stuff in.

Oh yeah, and the cooler... Corsair H115i V2 with Noctua NF-A14 Chromax fans. Thanks Noctua, for finally making black fans with red vibration insulators that will match the color scheme of the rest of my system.


----------



## RustySpoons

Both systems are built and posting, Stock core voltage is showing as 1.104v for the 8700k, is that good or bad?
Not done any OC with anything after Devils Canyon.


----------



## moustang

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Telstar*
> 
> It just proves that is not reviewers samples only and not limited to one region. We have no idea what % is affected.
> You cut the rest of the post nor read my previous ones. I had said before that i would still buy it but from a place where i can easily return it.


I never said anything about reviewer samples, I specifically said from the first production run, which would be the first run of retail boards through the production line. I would expect more failures there than from boards made after that first production run.

And I never denied that there are problems with the heatsinks/thermal pads on SOME boards, I just said that without any real data it's premature at best to call the problem widespread based on a couple of reviewers who did get pre-production samples, and a tiny handful of people who got retail boards with problems. It's possible that there is actually a widespread problem, but there is no way for us to know if there is or not based on the small sample we have.


----------



## chris719

Seems that on paper the Gaming 7 has a better VRM design and better inductors than the Maximus X Hero and Apex? Only question is, is it worth compromising on the heatsink and BIOS for that.


----------



## copterguise

Hi guys,

Got my 8600k and Taichi. Not interested in a huge overclock, because I'm more into silence. Running a Noctua D15s.

I'm doing offset voltage and I've set it to the maximum -100mV in Taichi UEFI. The follow result has been Prime stable overnight (~70 degrees avg).
Is this pretty decent in regards to voltage? Upgraded from 3570k so I haven't been OC'ing these newer chips.


----------



## TMatzelle60

how are the vrm cooling on the Gaming 7 i will not be OC


----------



## e-gate

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *TMatzelle60*
> 
> how are the vrm cooling on the Gaming 7 i will not be OC


If you are not OCing then it doesn't matter what board you are using unless it's a motherboard with huge issues like the Gigabyte Ultra Gaming.


----------



## RustySpoons

Just managed to shoe-horn a D14 SE2011 in an ITX Z370 Build!


----------



## monitorhero

Will that provide a good airflow at all?

Another Question. I have a Soundblaster Z and I can only put it in the third pci-e x16 slot. Will that affect the performance of the graphics card or will there only be shared bandwidth with another graphics cards?


----------



## scracy

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *monitorhero*
> 
> Will that provide a good airflow at all?
> 
> Another Question. I have a Soundblaster Z and I can only put it in the third pci-e x16 slot. Will that affect the performance of the graphics card or will there only be shared bandwidth with another graphics cards?


on which board? If you are referring to the bottom x16 slot, that one is electrically only x4 and from the chipset so in that case no it wont affect graphics card performance, that said it is not the ideal place to put your sound card as it is very close physically to your PSU in most cases which might introduce some noise


----------



## RustySpoons

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *monitorhero*
> 
> Will that provide a good airflow at all?
> 
> Another Question. I have a Soundblaster Z and I can only put it in the third pci-e x16 slot. Will that affect the performance of the graphics card or will there only be shared bandwidth with another graphics cards?


Yes it keeps the CPU Lovely and cool







, no hard drives going in there, it's all on m.2 NVMe's
PSU going to be swapped with a Seasonic Focus Prime Platinum over the next few days.


----------



## mWally

Thoughts on the ASRock Z370 Professional Gaming vs the Maximus X Hero? Tried searching through the thread, not seeing much on it.


----------



## ringl

RustySpoon, can you please look on the Hero on the ASMedia-Controllers if they are "ASM2142" (seen on Motherboard-Layout in Manual), On Xfastest he states and pictures 2x ASM3142.

https://p.xfastest.com/~sinchen/ASUS-ROG-MAXIMUS-X-Hero/ASUS-ROG-MAXIMUS-X-Hero-27.jpg
https://p.xfastest.com/~sinchen/ASUS-ROG-MAXIMUS-X-Hero/ASUS-ROG-MAXIMUS-X-Hero-17.jpg

https://news.xfastest.com/review/41732/asus-rog-maximus-x-hero/

Thanks in advance


----------



## RustySpoons

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ringl*
> 
> RustySpoon, can you please look on the Hero on the ASMedia-Controllers if they are "ASM2142" (seen on Motherboard-Layout in Manual), On Xfastest he states and pictures 2x ASM3142.
> 
> https://p.xfastest.com/~sinchen/ASUS-ROG-MAXIMUS-X-Hero/ASUS-ROG-MAXIMUS-X-Hero-27.jpg
> https://p.xfastest.com/~sinchen/ASUS-ROG-MAXIMUS-X-Hero/ASUS-ROG-MAXIMUS-X-Hero-17.jpg
> 
> https://news.xfastest.com/review/41732/asus-rog-maximus-x-hero/
> 
> Thanks in advance


ASM3142


----------



## ringl

Thank you RusytSpoon









It would be nonsense if Asus used on the pricier boards an older controller as on the cheaper ones...


----------



## RustySpoons

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ringl*
> 
> Thank you RusytSpoon
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It would be nonsense if Asus used on the pricier boards an older controller as on the cheaper ones...


Yes, it nearly put me off buying it!
Excuse the poor pic, it was done on my phone but you get the idea rather than me just saying it


----------



## kevindd992002

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RustySpoons*
> 
> Yes, it nearly put me off buying it!
> Excuse the poor pic, it was done on my phone but you get the idea rather than me just saying it


That chip is for USB 3.1 Gen2 right? The Gen1's are Intel?


----------



## ringl

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RustySpoons*
> 
> Yes, it nearly put me off buying it!


Same here, i think i will order on monday


----------



## RustySpoons

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kevindd992002*
> 
> That chip is for USB 3.1 Gen2 right? The Gen1's are Intel?


That's correct, Intel does not provide Gen2 as yet.


----------



## monitorhero

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *scracy*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *monitorhero*
> 
> Will that provide a good airflow at all?
> 
> Another Question. I have a Soundblaster Z and I can only put it in the third pci-e x16 slot. Will that affect the performance of the graphics card or will there only be shared bandwidth with another graphics cards?
> 
> 
> 
> on which board? If you are referring to the bottom x16 slot, that one is electrically only x4 and from the chipset so in that case no it wont affect graphics card performance, that said it is not the ideal place to put your sound card as it is very close physically to your PSU in most cases which might introduce some noise
Click to expand...

I noticed that design flaw just when I put it together. The Noctua is blocking the x1 behind the graphics card and the graphics card is blocking the second x1 or at least a card there would block one of the fans of the GPU. That was far better on the x370 taichi. I don't know why they changed it. If I want to use my inateck card it will block one fan of the GPU. Sucks...

@kevin as far as i know intel doesnt support gen 2 natively yet.


----------



## Exilon

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *monitorhero*
> 
> Will that provide a good airflow at all?
> 
> Another Question. I have a Soundblaster Z and I can only put it in the third pci-e x16 slot. Will that affect the performance of the graphics card or will there only be shared bandwidth with another graphics cards?


The last PCI-E x16 slot is usually a x4 electrical slot that's wired to the PCH.


----------



## AlphaC

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *chris719*
> 
> Seems that on paper the Gaming 7 has a better VRM design and better inductors than the Maximus X Hero and Apex? Only question is, is it worth compromising on the heatsink and BIOS for that.


So a VRM consists of more than mosfets.
There's the input filter capacitors, driver, doublers , mosfets, inductors, output capacitors & PCB. The capacitors generally are quite similar , although boards like STRIX and Z370-A use 5K caps instead of 10-12K hour ones ; MSI doesn' t seem to be using Nichicon ones. The biggest difference between Fatal1ty K6 PCB & Taichi's besides memory VRM is the total input filtering reservoir capacitors as far as I can tell.

Inductors, unless the manufacturer really does something dumb shouldn't be an issue since they act as a filter allowing DC current to flow and resisting AC current. I've seen R68 inductors on Asus midrange boards , R42 on MSI pro carbon, R40 on MSI Gaming M5, and R50 on the Gigabyte Gaming 5 , with R30 on lower Gigabyte boards. The cooper bussman 60A inductor used on the Asrock boards is typically R22. On the datasheet for Powerstages , 150nH (R15) or higher is necessary to minimize power loss due to output inductor. A small inductor gives better transient response at the expense of more current ripple while a large inductor leads to a less inductor current ripple at the cost of slower transients.

We can see a rather clear delineation between performance products versus low-midrange products. The capacitors and inductors are different typically. It really bothers me that the Gaming 5 PCB wasn't also used for Ultra Gaming for this reason and has MSRP $170 (it still is this high in non US markets), the only big cost difference VRM-wise was more inductors as far as I can tell, since running 4 phases with 2 mosfets per phase instead of one is the same total mosfets as having 8 phases, albeit needing a few doublers. The capacitors used are the black 10k caps used on higher tier Gaming 5 & Gaming 7. Gigabyte could have had quite a compelling product for people liking RGB.

Gaming 7 CPU ability is roughly on par with Apex / Hero, but the RAM ability is not (more like STRIX). If you go a couple posts above I posted links to boards that have done higher than watercooling, i.e. ~ 5.8GHz+. 8pack from OCUK mentioned Gaming 7 hitting around 3866MHz easily on RAM whereas Taichi can do 4 DIMMs 4000MHz / 2 DIMM 4333MHz+ & Asus ROG Apex 4500MHz RAM , Hero ~4000MHz.

I have no independent data on what the microfine alloy chokes are on the Asus ROG boards. These are from their marketing pages.


Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!









They might be these from Vishay : https://www.vishay.com/docs/34123/ihlp-5050fd-01.pdf

As far as capacitors go, Asrock is using 12K caps when Gigabyte + Asus are using 10K hour ones on their higher end boards. Not that it matters as much since if you run your VRM at 105°C no board is going to do well.

If you pay attention to Asrock's marketing they mention combo caps (820uF and 100uF) for cleaner power. Asus' ROG boards have a similar setup but the Gaming 7 doesn't.

It probably has to do with Powerstages being used instead of powerblocks.

Honestly for most people, given the price of the Gaming 7 at $190 now it's very difficult to recommend another $200 USD board besides the Taichi (if you want wifi / LAN teaming). In Asia or other places the Gaming 7 is as expensive as a Fatal1ty Gaming i7 or ROG Hero. It's worth the money even if you need change thermal pads (that is if you get a bad sample), they put $70 worth of Intersil powerstages + also extra costs such as WIMA caps + ESS audio DAC instead of a TI one. In comparison, the bill of materials is far lower for the Hero yet costs higher (ROG branding + "better BIOs").

I've read somewhere Z390 chipset is the focus right now and Gigabyte will not make a board higher than Gaming 7, even if SOC FORCE LN2 is on hwbot records.

Playwares' GBT Gaming 5 review (confirmation)






4.9GHz , 1.3V LLC Turbo



Wattage


LLC levels


http://playwares.com/pcreview/55679055

Seems there's a hot spot between the 2 VRM heatsinks , unless they didn't tape off the LEDs and there's reflectiveness off the LED

edit: Test setup is CORSAIR H110i v2 with delidded CPU, the thermals are on Prime95 29.10 Large FFT


Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!







Hwbot rankings Maximus X Hero results
5.45GHz custom water http://hwbot.org/submission/3693258_shar00750_geekbench3___multi_core_core_i7_8700k_33013_points
5.45GHz custom water XTU http://hwbot.org/submission/3693240_shar00750_xtu_core_i7_8700k_3004_marks
5.4GHz custom water http://hwbot.org/submission/3688816_pkbo_hwbot_x265_benchmark___1080p_core_i7_8700k_62.55_fps
5.4GHz custom water http://hwbot.org/submission/3693245_shar00750_gpupi_for_cpu___100m_core_i7_8700k_13sec_266ms
5.397GHz custom water R15 http://hwbot.org/submission/3693256_shar00750_cinebench___r15_core_i7_8700k_1820_cb
5.375GHz custom water R15 http://hwbot.org/submission/3695723_samba_cinebench___r15_core_i7_8700k_1779_cb


----------



## RustySpoons

Well I'm using my Hero X tonight, can't OC as my cooler hasn't arrived yet.
But one thing I can say, the Audio output on this is incredibly good, the ES9023 and headphone amp is superb.

Before anyone doubts this, my main HiFi is Naim with a Chord Qute DAC which is highly regarded, I'm no stranger to DACs and have custom built many, I've owned quite a selection.
I've got a fair bit of high end gear and owned and built lots.

This is driving my HD595's with ease, can't wait to try a better can on here.

Also there is NO NOISE from mouse movement etc, or drive activity if sound is a deciding factor on your board choice this gets a big thumbs up here.

Very impressed with this board so far.

Also m.2 NVMe seems to be playing nice, the heatsink works well.


----------



## MBugaria

Concerning capacitors ...

I'm looking now at the Nichicon FPCAP catalog and the maximum that I see is 105ºC 2000 / 5000Hrs endurance
Panasonic OS-CON (formerly Sanyo) - 105ºC 5000Hrs
Panasonic POSCAP / SP-Cap - 105ºC 2000Hrs

Has anyone really seen a datasheet on a 10k or 12k polymer Low-ESR 105ºC capacitor? Anyone?


----------



## chris719

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MBugaria*
> 
> Concerning capacitors ...
> 
> I'm looking now at the Nichicon FPCAP catalog and the maximum that I see is 105ºC 2000 / 5000Hrs endurance
> Panasonic OS-CON (formerly Sanyo) - 105ºC 5000Hrs
> Panasonic POSCAP / SP-Cap - 105ºC 2000Hrs
> 
> Has anyone really seen a datasheet on a 10k or 12k polymer Low-ESR 105ºC capacitor? Anyone?


Typically anything rated over that is a hybrid solid polymer and not a true solid polymer cap. I would not be concerned with the rating myself. For this application you want the caps with the lowest ESR, ESL, and best ripple current spec.


----------



## chris719

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AlphaC*
> 
> So a VRM consists of more than mosfets.
> There's the input filter capacitors, driver, doublers , mosfets, inductors, output capacitors & PCB. The capacitors generally are quite similar , although boards like STRIX and Z370-A use 5K caps instead of 10-12K hour ones ; MSI doesn' t seem to be using Nichicon ones. The biggest difference between Fatal1ty K6 PCB & Taichi's besides memory VRM is the total input filtering reservoir capacitors as far as I can tell....


Yeah I'm aware. The quality and type of the inductors does matter of course outside of the value chosen. There can be pronounced differences in audible whine from magnetostriction and also differences in radiated emissions, aside from the obvious things like DCR, Q. I'm sure you know all that, just saying.

Related to the above post - it's nice that manufacturers are using higher endurance caps but I am not sure that the difference is even relevant given the lifespan of the machine and typical use case. In my experience I have seen a lot of caps fail early simply because they were operated too close to their rated max ripple current. I would prefer the lowest ESR and ESL capacitor with the highest ripple current rating (varies by the geometry sometimes). There are a few types of very low mounted ESL caps (SP cap, face-down polymer tantalum, high cap MLCC, etc.) that would be nice to see but I guess they don't want to spend the money.

https://www.newark.com/wcsstore/ExtendedSitesCatalogAssetStore/cms/asset/images/americas/common/storefront/panasonic/Panasonic_Capacitors_WP_final.pdf

I would guess the max memory clock difference isn't related to the VRM necessarily, although it can certainly contribute. The layout might just be better on the ASUS boards. We see the 2 DIMM slot boards clocking higher for signal integrity reasons as well.


----------



## ehume

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *copterguise*
> 
> Hi guys,
> 
> Got my 8600k and Taichi. Not interested in a huge overclock, because I'm more into silence. Running a Noctua D15s.
> 
> I'm doing offset voltage and I've set it to the maximum -100mV in Taichi UEFI. The follow result has been Prime stable overnight (~70 degrees avg).
> Is this pretty decent in regards to voltage? Upgraded from 3570k so I haven't been OC'ing these newer chips.


How are your VRM temps on that Taichi?


----------



## AlphaC

@chris719

The Asus ROG Hero is using 2 phases for memory VRM, so is Taichi / K6 / Extreme4.

If you look at 2 DIMM boards such as the ROG APEX and STRIX-I , they both clock memory to 4500MHz. The number of DIMMs reduces the amount of trace length matching required AFAIK.
https://www.micron.com/about/blogs/2013/march/optimizing-high-speed-embedded-memory-interface-designs
Quote:


> Critical design elements for improving signal integrity:
> 
> Basic signal trace properties
> 
> Total length
> Effective length
> Length to terminations
> Min/max trace lengths for a group
> Trace widths
> Via counts, layer changes
> Impedance matching
> Single-ended impedances
> Differential impedances
> Neighbor spacing
> Spacing to adjacent nets (broken down by region)
> Serpentine spacing to self
> Plane references
> Signal reference plane
> Plane split crossings
> Distance to plane edge
> Signal return paths
> Decoupling capacitor values, type, and placement


----------



## chris719

Yeah, I have routed low speed DDR3 before, every via is an impedance discontinuity and potential stub depending on the type. It's probably not just the trace length skew; DDR is a daisy chain / fly-by routed bus so reflections increase with 4 slots, plus the memory controller has a more difficult load to drive in the case of all slots being populated. Plus routing may not be ideal given that they use the minimum number of layers possible on a cramped board.


----------



## AlphaC

Maximus X Hero parts in detail


Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!










http://quasarzone.co.kr/bbs/board.php?bo_table=qc_qsz&wr_id=108282


----------



## Shadoww

I bought the Gigabyte z370 Gaming 7 for $190 (after rebate) on Newegg. Can't beat that! Appreciate all the discussion from everyone in this thread to help me make my decision.


----------



## asdkj1740

few updates info to msi mid range mobos:

8phase doubled vs fake 8 phases(true 4 phaes with dual inductors only).
uP1961 is a dobuler for sure.
the marking "FH UGF73N" driver chip should be up1962, its datasheet shows that the top marking is started with "FH".
and up1962 is a Single Channel MOSFET Driver only, it cant double phases.

using uP1961 doublers on vcore is really doubling phases like msi gaming5.
using "FH UGF73N" driver chip is not doubling phases, like z370m gaming pro.

http://www.upi-semi.com/files/1847/ba4ca758-28a3-11e6-8889-c5d1c66ed1d0
http://www.upi-semi.com/en-list-upi-681


----------



## moustang

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Shadoww*
> 
> I bought the Gigabyte z370 Gaming 7 for $190 (after rebate) on Newegg. Can't beat that! Appreciate all the discussion from everyone in this thread to help me make my decision.


Good deal. I paid $199 for mine from Micro Center. $190 is a good price for that motherboard.

I just finished swapping out my 4790k for the 8700k. Only problem I've run into is my old DVD-R drive failed and I didn't think to download a copy of the drivers and software for the Gaming 7. So I'm currently on my daughter's PC copying the DVD to a USB thumbdrive so I can install the drivers and software.

Looks like I'll be spending much of the rest of the night overclocking, tweaking, and testing.

And drinking, now that the physical work is done.


----------



## snaky89

What is acceptable vrm temps in maxload?

Got gaming 5 and i belive my vrm temps are hitting 80c @1.24v/4.8ghz (not delidded yet) seems quite high to me.

HWinfo if giving me 5 tempatures from motherboard and i believe that the highest one is VRM?

My chip needs 1.34v for 4.9 and i belive that 5ghz might need close to 1.4v. So vrm is going to get toasty.


----------



## RustySpoons

If anyone is having issues installing programmes with the latest update on Windows 10, I have found a solution.
Doesn't work with everything but seems Microsoft have introduced a "Feature"

This is affecting Ai Suite and Aura so far.

Right click on the Zip file you just downloaded, tick "Unblock", hit ok, unzip and install.


----------



## moustang

Got some software issues to iron out after the upgrade ( I didn't do a clean install) but I'm now running at 5GHZ with a 4.8GHZ uncore with temps going no higher than 63C under full load.

Should be able to get some really solid numbers just as soon as I get these software issues ironed out. (Microsoft doesn't like my Win10 registration for some reason.)


----------



## winter2

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *snaky89*
> 
> What is acceptable vrm temps in maxload?
> 
> Got gaming 5 and i belive my vrm temps are hitting 80c @1.24v/4.8ghz (not delidded yet) seems quite high to me.
> 
> HWinfo if giving me 5 tempatures from motherboard and i believe that the highest one is VRM?
> 
> My chip needs 1.34v for 4.9 and i belive that 5ghz might need close to 1.4v. So vrm is going to get toasty.


You should be able to find VRM mos temperature sensor in hwinfo 

During stress at 1,3V I am getting to max 70 degrees on VRM on gaming 5


----------



## snaky89

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *winter2*
> 
> You should be able to find VRM mos temperature sensor in hwinfo
> 
> During stress at 1,3V I am getting to max 70 degrees on VRM on gaming 5


yea i found it. And it shows same numbers that Hwmonitor.

Vrm temps jumps to 79c during 15min of asus realbench.

Ambient max temp is 42 inside the case.

More airflow? Loose vrm heatsink screws? Or just bad Vrm.

Im using customloop to cooldown the pc.

Edit: 42 can't be ambient (system1) sensor. It stays at 40 in idle and it's not that hot inside the case tested by hand.


----------



## VRMfreak

]
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AlphaC*
> 
> Maximus X Hero parts in detail
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://quasarzone.co.kr/bbs/board.php?bo_table=qc_qsz&wr_id=108282


Damn. Those capacitors look good but i dont understand Asus' willy nilly with the mosfets.
They can put IR3555s on a $190 board, but cant put them on a $280 one.
Can i use information from your Z370 mobo spreadsheet that you posted in this thread? For recommending mobos and such.
Also, IR3599 can work as a dual driver? The Hero has only power blocks, so they should have an external drivers (??)
They should be IR3598s, those are dual drivers (???)


----------



## tashcz

Aorus 7 vs Strix boards?


----------



## VRMfreak

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *tashcz*
> 
> Aorus 7 vs Strix boards?


Aorus. It has 99227 Intersil smart powerstages. One of the best on the market.


----------



## AlphaC

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *asdkj1740*
> 
> few updates info to msi mid range mobos:
> 
> 8phase doubled vs fake 8 phases(true 4 phaes with dual inductors only).
> uP1961 is a dobuler for sure.
> the marking "FH UGF73N" driver chip should be up1962, its datasheet shows that the top marking is started with "FH".
> and up1962 is a Single Channel MOSFET Driver only, it cant double phases.
> 
> using uP1961 doublers on vcore is really doubling phases like msi gaming5.
> using "FH UGF73N" driver chip is not doubling phases, like z370m gaming pro.
> 
> http://www.upi-semi.com/files/1847/ba4ca758-28a3-11e6-8889-c5d1c66ed1d0
> http://www.upi-semi.com/en-list-upi-681


So for up1962 dual driver concern:
M5 = up1961
Pro Carbon = up1961s http://www.overclock.net/t/1638955/z370-z390-vrm-discussion-thread/330#post_26407251

Krait = up1962 http://www.overclock.net/t/1638955/z370-z390-vrm-discussion-thread/530#post_26419346
SLI PLUS = up1962? http://www.overclock.net/t/1638955/z370-z390-vrm-discussion-thread/50#post_26381978
Tomahawk = up1962?
z370m gaming pro = up1962? ---> move position lower down on chart , need to recalculate (probably ~85% efficient at best if it's like AM4 , effectively the same garbage as the "do not buy" boards)

Is that what you mean?


----------



## tashcz

So which board currently has the best power delivery?


----------



## HKPolice

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *VRMfreak*
> 
> ]
> Damn. Those capacitors look good but i dont understand Asus' willy nilly with the mosfets.
> They can put IR3555s on a $190 board, but cant put them on a $280 one.
> Can i use information from your Z370 mobo spreadsheet that you posted in this thread? For recommending mobos and such.
> Also, IR3599 can work as a dual driver? The Hero has only power blocks, so they should have an external drivers (??)
> They should be IR3598s, those are dual drivers (???)


With every generation, Asus uses cheaper & cheaper VRM designs and they're still #1 in mobo sales. People care more about LEDs & BIOS GUI more than VRMs these days.


----------



## tashcz

Any explanation why the Aorus gaming 7 is lacking behind in performance? I'm deciding between it and the Maximus Hero X, so far I've loved Asus boards, but I love the fan on the VRMs that Gigabyte is using and since I've used AMD where power delivery is everything, it's a tought choice for me. It's 280EUR for the Gigabyte and 295EUR for the Hero here.

Make my day guys. Either tell me the Hero isn't that bad or shoot me and say Aorus 7 is the only choice right now.


----------



## RustySpoons

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *VRMfreak*
> 
> Aorus. It has 99227 Intersil smart powerstages. One of the best on the market.


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *tashcz*
> 
> Any explanation why the Aorus gaming 7 is lacking behind in performance? I'm deciding between it and the Maximus Hero X, so far I've loved Asus boards, but I love the fan on the VRMs that Gigabyte is using and since I've used AMD where power delivery is everything, it's a tought choice for me. It's 280EUR for the Gigabyte and 295EUR for the Hero here.


Probably because the other boards benched had MCE/Sync all cores enabled.


----------



## tashcz

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RustySpoons*
> 
> Probably because the other boards benched had MCE/Sync all cores enabled.


But I was looking at OC results at 5GHz all the time. That shoud mean no throttle and constant 5GHz. It was a bit slower in everything. I can point to the reviews if needed.


----------



## e-gate

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *tashcz*
> 
> Any explanation why the Aorus gaming 7 is lacking behind in performance? I'm deciding between it and the Maximus Hero X, so far I've loved Asus boards, but I love the fan on the VRMs that Gigabyte is using and since I've used AMD where power delivery is everything, it's a tought choice for me. It's 280EUR for the Gigabyte and 295EUR for the Hero here.
> 
> Make my day guys. Either tell me the Hero isn't that bad or shoot me and say Aorus 7 is the only choice right now.


Gaming 7 isn't lacking in performance. Gaming 7 also comes with a 40 euro Steam code as a gift (lasts through this months in EU).
I went for the Gaming 7.


----------



## tashcz

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *e-gate*
> 
> Gaming 7 isn't lacking in performance. Gaming 7 also comes with a 40 euro Steam code as a gift (lasts through this months in EU).
> I went for the Gaming 7.


Not lacking but behind most mobos right now in Blender, Cinebench, even gaming shows 1FPS less than others mostly... just wondering why that's happening. It's not a lot, its mostly 1% slower but I'm curious why thats happening.


----------



## ehume

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *moustang*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Shadoww*
> 
> I bought the Gigabyte z370 Gaming 7 for $190 (after rebate) on Newegg. Can't beat that! Appreciate all the discussion from everyone in this thread to help me make my decision.
> 
> 
> 
> Good deal. I paid $199 for mine from Micro Center. $190 is a good price for that motherboard.
> 
> I just finished swapping out my 4790k for the 8700k. Only problem I've run into is my old DVD-R drive failed and I didn't think to download a copy of the drivers and software for the Gaming 7. So I'm currently on my daughter's PC copying the DVD to a USB thumbdrive so I can install the drivers and software.
> 
> Looks like I'll be spending much of the rest of the night overclocking, tweaking, and testing.
> 
> And drinking, now that the physical work is done.
Click to expand...

So. You have the Aorus Gaming 7. How hot do those VRM's get? The fact that Gigabyte put a fan there is a bad sign.

I have stuck with Gigabyte boards. With AS.S I feel I am on the wrong end of a business formula. Since I test coolers, I will be running Linpack with AVX2 in half-hour runs, over and over. I expect my CPU to get hot, which is the whole point. My 4790k board from Gigabyte and the Intel XTI was perfect, but a heatsink with a convex bottom ruined the system. Now I am looking for a system that will not fail (I expect hot electronics to fail eventually). So: I need a system where the CPU gets hot but the MB's VRM's do not. Can you recommend the Gaming 7? I ask you because you actually have the MB.


----------



## RustySpoons

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *tashcz*
> 
> But I was looking at OC results at 5GHz all the time. That shoud mean no throttle and constant 5GHz. It was a bit slower in everything. I can point to the reviews if needed.


Interesting, I wouldn't mind a look at that.
Were all cores synced?


----------



## tashcz

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gTSt8sPGmMQ
http://www.guru3d.com/articles_pages/gigabyte_aorus_z370_gaming_7_review,10.html

All of them show the Aorus 7 being the slowest. Guru3D shows massive differences.


----------



## RustySpoons

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *e-gate*
> 
> Gaming 7 isn't lacking in performance. Gaming 7 also comes with a 40 euro Steam code as a gift (lasts through this months in EU).
> I went for the Gaming 7.


No idea why they are bundling so much stuff with it, in the UK you get £40 Steam and a Coolermaster 240 AIO with it.


----------



## tashcz

Thank you Serbia again. We got 500$+ 8700K's and no bundles with boards. Still trying to figure out a way for a new build, but hits come from every side. Prices, performance differences between higher-end boards, DDR4 cost, availability of EVERYTHING... Coffee lake in 2017 seems impossible. Got about 800EUR to invest into the platform.


----------



## copterguise

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ehume*
> 
> How are your VRM temps on that Taichi?


Low 40s during Prime95 (Small FFTs).


----------



## ehume

One more question: who makes the BIOS?


----------



## asdkj1740

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AlphaC*
> 
> So for up1962 dual driver concern:
> M5 = up1961
> Pro Carbon = up1961s http://www.overclock.net/t/1638955/z370-z390-vrm-discussion-thread/330#post_26407251
> 
> Krait = up1962 http://www.overclock.net/t/1638955/z370-z390-vrm-discussion-thread/530#post_26419346
> SLI PLUS = up1962? http://www.overclock.net/t/1638955/z370-z390-vrm-discussion-thread/50#post_26381978
> Tomahawk = up1962?
> z370m gaming pro = up1962? ---> move position lower down on chart , need to recalculate (probably ~85% efficient at best if it's like AM4 , effectively the same garbage as the "do not buy" boards)
> 
> Is that what you mean?


yes, unless what i said is wrong. i cant 100% sure about the "fh" chip must be up1962.
however judging by the size of two ic, they are quiet different.


----------



## AlphaC

https://www.overclockers.ua/motherboard/msi-z370-gaming-pro-carbon-ac/
Quote:


> The five-channel PWM controller uPI Semiconductor uP9508 is used as the basis of the voltage regulator. CPU Voltage is formed with the participation of four external drivers (marking FH UGF73N). To operate the integrated video controller, use the single driver-doubler uP1961. Thus, we obtain the configuration of the converter operation according to the "4 + 2 phase" scheme. Power elements are selected by ON Semiconductor - NTMFS4C029N and NTMFS4C024N. For the channels of the CPU, a method of doubling the number of transistors in each channel is used, that is, there are only sixteen of them. And the GP in the pair use only a powerful model (NTMFS4C024N), in total there were six elements.


Linked it earlier, but just in case you missed it : maybe Pro Carbon is misidentified as well

FH is on the up1962 datasheet


----------



## Telstar

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *tashcz*
> 
> Not lacking but behind most mobos right now in Blender, Cinebench, even gaming shows 1FPS less than others mostly... just wondering why that's happening. It's not a lot, its mostly 1% slower but I'm curious why thats happening.


How was the vcore? My guess is that was lower on the gaming 7. This often reduces the performance by a very little amount (but has other benefits such as lower power and temps).


----------



## asdkj1740

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AlphaC*
> 
> https://www.overclockers.ua/motherboard/msi-z370-gaming-pro-carbon-ac/
> Linked it earlier, but just in case you missed it , so maybe Pro Carbon is misidentified as well
> 
> FH is on the up1962 datasheet


agree, and that vrm controller has 5 pins for driving mosfet only, so it must be 3+2 or 4+1, but not 4+2.

yes i have checked this datasheet so i guess the "fh" chip is up1962.

since there is a up1961 (marking as UP1961S) on the pcb for doubling the igpu vrm, so i dont think the up1961s is the same as the "fh" chip.
the "fh" chip must be something else, however checking the upi semiconductor website, there are only two doublers chip listed, and none of them would mark as "fh", so i guess for those msi mobo using the "fh" chip, should be "fake" 8 phases.


----------



## AlphaC

HKEPC also thinks it is the up1961S on the Pro Carbon _though nothing is specified for the "FH" chip_
http://www.hkepc.com/15719/%E4%B8%AD%E9%9A%8EZ370%E9%9B%BB%E7%AB%B6MB_MSI_Z370_Gaming_Pro_CARBON_AC

edit: it's possible that the uP1961*S* has a smaller footprint


MSI *Z270* Gaming M7
http://i2hard.ru/reviews/obzor-i-testirovanie-materinskoj-platy-msi-z270-gaming-m7.html

See also
https://www.ocaholic.ch/modules/smartsection/item.php?itemid=4113&page=3&lang=french


----------



## asdkj1740

only m5 has a up1961 chip next to the vcore vrm.

gaming m5 msi
https://youtu.be/gEdNN5yy0KQ?t=284
4:44
there are only 2 little chips on the back of the pcb at the vcore section.
check the inductors pins at the back of the pcb too, different pointing direction on gaming m5.


----------



## asdkj1740

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AlphaC*
> 
> HKEPC also thinks it is the up1961S on the Pro Carbon _though nothing is specified for the "FH" chip_
> http://www.hkepc.com/15719/%E4%B8%AD%E9%9A%8EZ370%E9%9B%BB%E7%AB%B6MB_MSI_Z370_Gaming_Pro_CARBON_AC


bad review, dont even mention those fh chip.
different markings and sizes and pin outs, dont understand why they would assume these two to be the same model without any support.


----------



## Shadoww

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *moustang*
> 
> Good deal. I paid $199 for mine from Micro Center. $190 is a good price for that motherboard.
> 
> I just finished swapping out my 4790k for the 8700k. Only problem I've run into is my old DVD-R drive failed and I didn't think to download a copy of the drivers and software for the Gaming 7. So I'm currently on my daughter's PC copying the DVD to a USB thumbdrive so I can install the drivers and software.
> 
> Looks like I'll be spending much of the rest of the night overclocking, tweaking, and testing.
> 
> And drinking, now that the physical work is done.


Yep, I was contemplating between Asrock Taichi and the Gaming 7. I just couldn't pass up the flagship board at $190. It arrives next week, can't wait to build in it.

Hope your having fun with your upgrade!







I'm upgrading from a 3570K myself.


----------



## AlphaC

Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!







Z370 Taichi with SM7341

The memory VRM is also Sinopower


https://www.hd-tecnologia.com/review-asrock-z370-taichi/2/

Essentially if your memory VRM is Sinopower you have a Sinopower VRM

Odd thing though is the presence of an empty capacitor spot at the top of the board.

edit: In other news, new Taichi BIOS
*1.20* 2017/11/3 11.70MB
1.Update Intel ME
2.Update Microcode
3.Enhance CPU performance

Fatal1ty K6 & Extreme4 also have a BIOS update with the note "Enhance SATA compatibility".

STRIX-E 5430 BIOS update dated 11/3 "Sync all core , Sufficient processor cooling is required for better performance."
https://www.asus.com/us/Motherboards/ROG-STRIX-Z370-E-GAMING/HelpDesk_BIOS/

Same BIOS for STRIX F
https://www.asus.com/us/Motherboards/ROG-STRIX-Z370-F-GAMING/HelpDesk_BIOS/
Same BIOS for Z370-A
https://www.asus.com/us/Motherboards/PRIME-Z370-A/HelpDesk_BIOS/

Also for STRIX I
https://www.asus.com/us/Motherboards/ROG-STRIX-Z370-I-GAMING/HelpDesk_BIOS/

===============

EDIT:
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Koniakki*
> 
> Hey guys. Need some advice please.
> 
> Got a Asus Prime-A here already and an Asrock Extreme 4 arriving in a few days. It has NOT shipped yet.
> 
> The dilemma is that I have a set of TridentZ F4-4266C19-16GTZA arriving also in a few days.
> 
> I know the Extreme 4 is considered better vrm and memory OC wise and supports up to 4333MHz versus the Prime-A's 4K ram but do we have any here with Extreme 4 or K6 or the Prime-A with high speed rams to offer any confirmation that all works fine at speeds at least over 3866+?
> 
> I don't mind keeping the Prime-A and run my sticks at 4K btw but obviously the Extreme 4 is one tier above in general.
> 
> Price wise both cost the ~same. Just need some confirmation if possible on high speed ram on Prime-A and the Extreme 4.
> 
> CPU ordered the 8600k but might cancel and get the 8700k instead. Havent decided. Just saying in case it makes any difference to my current concern.
> 
> Thanks.


Get the Asrock boards if you are running over 4000MHz effective mem clock

Fatal1ty K6 / Extreme4 have been seen running over 4000MHz memory clock


----------



## Koniakki

Hey guys. Need some advice please.

Got a Asus Prime-A here already and an Asrock Extreme 4 arriving in a few days. It has NOT shipped yet.

The dilemma is that I have a set of TridentZ F4-4266C19-16GTZA arriving also in a few days.

I know the Extreme 4 is considered better vrm and memory OC wise and supports up to 4333MHz versus the Prime-A's 4K ram but do we have any here with Extreme 4 or K6 or the Prime-A with high speed rams to offer any confirmation that all works fine at speeds at least over 3866+?

*Edited*: I will *probably* run them at 4K with tighter timings.

I don't mind keeping the Prime-A and run my sticks at 4K btw but obviously the Extreme 4 is one tier above in general.

Price wise both cost the ~same. Just need some confirmation if possible on high speed ram on Prime-A and the Extreme 4.

CPU ordered the 8600k but might cancel and get the 8700k instead. Havent decided. Just saying in case it makes any difference to my current concern.

Thanks.









*P.S:* Just looking to see if it's worth to save hassle of returning the Prime-A(shipping back, waiting for refund etc) since I have it already..


----------



## ehume

I have seen someone say that the Taichi board does not have an onboard start/reset button. I was wondering if people who have boards can chime in on whether their MB has this button or not?


----------



## Sin0822

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ehume*
> 
> I have seen someone say that the Taichi board does not have an onboard start/reset button. I was wondering if people who have boards can chime in on whether their MB has this button or not?


It does not have power and reset buttons, but it does have empty solder pads for them. There is a POST code display right to the left of those empty button pads. IMO, the POST code is more important than the buttons. Also ASRock tends to produce a Fatal1ty ZXXX Gaming i7 or professional gaming that typically is a more filled Taichi PCB.


----------



## ehume

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Sin0822*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *ehume*
> 
> I have seen someone say that the Taichi board does not have an onboard start/reset button. I was wondering if people who have boards can chime in on whether their MB has this button or not?
> 
> 
> 
> It does not have power and reset buttons, but it does have empty solder pads for them. There is a POST code display right to the left of those empty button pads. IMO, the POST code is more important than the buttons. Also ASRock tends to produce a Fatal1ty ZXXX Gaming i7 or professional gaming that typically is a more filled Taichi PCB.
Click to expand...

Yes, what you say is true. But because I work with a caseless environment this feature is important to me.

Q - anyone know about the ASRock Extreme4?


----------



## unkletom

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Koniakki*
> 
> Hey guys. Need some advice please.
> 
> Got a Asus Prime-A here already and an Asrock Extreme 4 arriving in a few days. It has NOT shipped yet.
> 
> The dilemma is that I have a set of TridentZ F4-4266C19-16GTZA arriving also in a few days.
> 
> I know the Extreme 4 is considered better vrm and memory OC wise and supports up to 4333MHz versus the Prime-A's 4K ram but do we have any here with Extreme 4 or K6 or the Prime-A with high speed rams to offer any confirmation that all works fine at speeds at least over 3866+?
> 
> I don't mind keeping the Prime-A and run my sticks at 4K btw but obviously the Extreme 4 is one tier above in general.
> 
> Price wise both cost the ~same. Just need some confirmation if possible on high speed ram on Prime-A and the Extreme 4.
> 
> CPU ordered the 8600k but might cancel and get the 8700k instead. Havent decided. Just saying in case it makes any difference to my current concern.
> 
> Thanks.


First of all I don't understand why you'd want to keep the prime knowing you'd have to lower the ram speed. Is it a brand you really like?









But yeah I got it running on 4266 mhz with Extreme4 very easy to achieve, above 4266 might be tricky. The Asus prime won't even run 4000 mhz unless you fill all 4 ram slots. You're looking at 3733/3866 with the prime.


----------



## Koniakki

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *unkletom*
> 
> First of all I don't understand why you'd want to keep the prime knowing you'd have to lower the ram speed. Is it a brand you really like?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But yeah I got it running on 4266 mhz with Extreme4 very easy to achieve, above 4266 might be tricky. The Asus prime won't even run 4000 mhz unless you fill all 4 ram slots. You're looking at 3733/3866 with the prime.


No brand preference. Just to save hassle of returning the Prime-A(shipping back, waiting for refund etc) since I have it already..

And *probably* I won't run at it 4266MHz but at 4K with tighter timings.

But in any case, since I don't have a CPU yet, in the end is all the same.

Thanks for the confirmation *unkletom*.

If any others would like to provide any info on this also, please do.









P.S: Updated/edited previous post.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AlphaC*
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Z370 Taichi with SM7341
> 
> The memory VRM is also Sinopower
> 
> 
> https://www.hd-tecnologia.com/review-asrock-z370-taichi/2/
> 
> Essentially if your memory VRM is Sinopower you have a Sinopower VRM
> 
> Odd thing though is the presence of an empty capacitor spot at the top of the board.
> 
> edit: In other news, new Taichi BIOS
> *1.20* 2017/11/3 11.70MB
> 1.Update Intel ME
> 2.Update Microcode
> 3.Enhance CPU performance
> 
> Fatal1ty K6 & Extreme4 also have a BIOS update with the note "Enhance SATA compatibility".
> 
> STRIX-E 5430 BIOS update dated 11/3 "Sync all core , Sufficient processor cooling is required for better performance."
> https://www.asus.com/us/Motherboards/ROG-STRIX-Z370-E-GAMING/HelpDesk_BIOS/
> 
> Same BIOS for STRIX F
> https://www.asus.com/us/Motherboards/ROG-STRIX-Z370-F-GAMING/HelpDesk_BIOS/
> Same BIOS for Z370-A
> https://www.asus.com/us/Motherboards/PRIME-Z370-A/HelpDesk_BIOS/
> 
> Also for STRIX I
> https://www.asus.com/us/Motherboards/ROG-STRIX-Z370-I-GAMING/HelpDesk_BIOS/
> 
> 
> ===============
> 
> EDIT:
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Koniakki*
> 
> Hey guys. Need some advice please.
> 
> Got a Asus Prime-A here already and an Asrock Extreme 4 arriving in a few days. It has NOT shipped yet.
> 
> The dilemma is that I have a set of TridentZ F4-4266C19-16GTZA arriving also in a few days.
> 
> I know the Extreme 4 is considered better vrm and memory OC wise and supports up to 4333MHz versus the Prime-A's 4K ram but do we have any here with Extreme 4 or K6 or the Prime-A with high speed rams to offer any confirmation that all works fine at speeds at least over 3866+?
> 
> *Edited*: I will *probably* run them at 4K with tighter timings.
> 
> I don't mind keeping the Prime-A and run my sticks at 4K btw but obviously the Extreme 4 is one tier above in general.
> 
> Price wise both cost the ~same. Just need some confirmation if possible on high speed ram on Prime-A and the Extreme 4.
> 
> CPU ordered the 8600k but might cancel and get the 8700k instead. Havent decided. Just saying in case it makes any difference to my current concern.
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *P.S:* Just looking to see if it's worth to save hassle of returning the Prime-A(shipping back, waiting for refund etc) since I have it already..
> 
> 
> 
> Get the Asrock boards if you are running over 4000MHz effective mem clock
> 
> Fatal1ty K6 / Extreme4 have been seen running over 4000MHz memory clock
Click to expand...

Thanks *Alpha*! And also thank you for your commitment and info/work provided on this thread.









Two confirmations already. Thanks guys. I wanted to keep the Extreme 4 of course, which is why I ordered it after the Prime-A but I saw someone(DStealth I think) having some trouble with his ram.

Why is why I got a little worried.


----------



## Sin0822

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ehume*
> 
> Yes, what you say is true. But because I work with a caseless environment this feature is important to me.
> 
> Q - anyone know about the ASRock Extreme4?


I have varying number of these types of wires with buttons: http://www.trossenrobotics.com/9mm-push-button


----------



## ehume

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Sin0822*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *ehume*
> 
> Yes, what you say is true. But because I work with a caseless environment this feature is important to me.
> 
> Q - anyone know about the ASRock Extreme4?
> 
> 
> 
> I have varying number of these types of wires with buttons: http://www.trossenrobotics.com/9mm-push-button
Click to expand...

Great find! +rep Now I can consider any board that runs with cool VRM's.


----------



## Sin0822

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ehume*
> 
> Great find! +rep Now I can consider any board that runs with cool VRM's.


Thanks! you will need some type of active airflow over any of the Z370 VRMs, it's just how it is when you aren't in a case.


----------



## czin125

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AlphaC*
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.hd-tecnologia.com/review-asrock-z370-taichi/2/


There's an extra spot for another capacitor in that pic in the prototype version.


----------



## copterguise

On my Taichi it seems the PCH runs a little hot. Getting up to 65° in games, with somewhat restricted airflow. 48°idle. I've reseated the heatsink and it gets fairly hot so it shouldn't be a thermal transfer issue.

Anyone care to chime in?


----------



## scracy

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *copterguise*
> 
> On my Taichi it seems the PCH runs a little hot. Getting up to 65° in games, with somewhat restricted airflow. 48°idle. I've reseated the heatsink and it gets fairly hot so it shouldn't be a thermal transfer issue.
> 
> Anyone care to chime in?


PCH temp of 65 degrees C is fine







mine sits around 63 degrees C on a hot day.


----------



## kevindd992002

Any news on the availability of the Code and Formula?


----------



## scracy

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kevindd992002*
> 
> Any news on the availability of the Code and Formula?


Not yet all i know is sometime this month


----------



## chris719

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Telstar*
> 
> How was the vcore? My guess is that was lower on the gaming 7. This often reduces the performance by a very little amount (but has other benefits such as lower power and temps).


Why would vcore affect performance? Makes no sense from a technical standpoint.


----------



## bl4ckdot

Based on z270, what should we expect for Code/Formula compared to Hero for vrms ?


----------



## kevindd992002

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *scracy*
> 
> Not yet all i know is sometime this month


Great







z370 boards aren't too hard to source compared to the damned CF CPU's, are they?


----------



## VRMfreak

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bl4ckdot*
> 
> Based on z270, what should we expect for Code/Formula compared to Hero for vrms ?


Probably the same OptiMOS everywhere, all Z270s used NexFETs (CSD87350Q5D). Wait for @AlphaC 's answer, he is the true expert.


----------



## Techhog

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *copterguise*
> 
> On my Taichi it seems the PCH runs a little hot. Getting up to 65° in games, with somewhat restricted airflow. 48°idle. I've reseated the heatsink and it gets fairly hot so it shouldn't be a thermal transfer issue.
> 
> Anyone care to chime in?


Is that considered hot, especially for something running passively?


----------



## tashcz

Aorus gaming 5 vs 7, differences in VRMs? Does the 5 got the same high-value ones like the 7?


----------



## AlphaC

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bl4ckdot*
> 
> Based on z270, what should we expect for Code/Formula compared to Hero for vrms ?


8x 50A Optimos for CPU probably, since they're a higher segment than the ROG Hero , there's no reason they would put 40A parts unless they are doing outright bait-and-switch sales tactics
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *VRMfreak*
> 
> Probably the same OptiMOS everywhere, all Z270s used NexFETs (CSD87350Q5D). Wait for @AlphaC 's answer, he is the true expert.


The true researcher









I'm not infallible, my information is only as good as the reviewers'. asdkj1740 helped me correct reviewers' mistake as far as doubling scheme on MSI boards (up1961 vs up1962).

Speaking of which there's a review of the Pro Carbon that claims it is a up1961S.
https://ithardware.pl/testyirecenzje/test_plyt_gigabyte_z370_aorus_gaming_7_oraz_msi_z370_gaming_pro_carbon_ac-4002-8.html
"FH UGF73K" used is claimed to be up1961S
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *tashcz*
> 
> Aorus gaming 5 vs 7, differences in VRMs? Does the 5 got the same high-value ones like the 7?


Unfortunately not. However, you have to keep in mind the 60A Intersil powerstages are about $7 each and the "server grade chokes" about $2 each. The Gaming 7 spent most of its Bill of Materials on parts.

The Gaming 5 is only about $160 on Newegg now, so if you don't care about absolute overclocks and memory over 3866MHz it's alright but for overclocking Fatal1ty K6 and Extreme4 are better bets ($140-160). The CPU VRM uses 8 phases of Onsemi 4C10+4C06 via Intersil's ISL6225A doubler (per GBT Matt) with phase interleaving. It's certainly an option versus a pricier $200 Asus Strix-E or MSI Pro Carbon AC.
At $200 I would probably go for the Taichi or Gaming 7.

https://hk.xfastest.com/2326/gigabyte-z370-hd3p-review/


Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!






Gigabyte appears to use same VRM on all boards lower than gaming 5

https://hk.xfastest.com/2401/xf-msi-z370-tomahawk-review/


Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!






Shouldn't buy a Tomahawk unless you don't require a stronger board than for MCE.

https://hk.xfastest.com/2245/asus-z370-e-gaming-review/
5.7GHz STRIX-E









Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!







https://hk.xfastest.com/2186/asrock-fatal1ty-z370-professional-gaming-i7/
Sinopower memory VRM so probably Sinopower CPU VRM

Interesting finding from Tom's hardware


newer BIOS


http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/asrock-z370-taichi-intel-coffee-lake-atx-motherboard,5279-4.html


----------



## tashcz

Meh, ima stick with Hero X or Aorus 7, they cost ~290EUR here, don't wanna go sky high with ROG stuff but those two should be good investments. So far everything seems better on Aorus but still can't cheat on Asus with Gigabyte...


----------



## oc99aa

i ask j.j. from asus abut ASUS ROG STRIX Z370-H Have excellent vrm ? and High quality ?

hi say

VRM is solid but I would recommend the -E, if you are looking for more aggressive, sustained overclocking. Overall though the VRM design will allow for solid and stable OC.
-A is also a good choice if looking for a higher performing VRM

the problem is ASUS ROG STRIX Z370-E = 210$ !!

did i go with z370 asrock extrme 4 ?


----------



## VRMfreak

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *oc99aa*
> 
> i ask j.j. from asus abut ASUS ROG STRIX Z370-H Have excellent vrm ? and High quality ?
> 
> hi say
> 
> VRM is solid but I would recommend the -E, if you are looking for more aggressive, sustained overclocking. Overall though the VRM design will allow for solid and stable OC.
> -A is also a good choice if looking for a higher performing VRM
> 
> the problem is ASUS ROG STRIX Z370-E = 210$ !!
> 
> did i go with z370 asrock extrme 4 ?


I'd bet the MSI support would tell you (about some of their cheap Z370 boards) that you can push 8GHz Liquid helium overclocks with no problem















Interesting he recommended a better board for OC


----------



## oc99aa

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *VRMfreak*
> 
> I'd bet the MSI support would told you (about some of their cheap Z370 boards) that you can push 8GHz Liquid helium overclocks with no problem
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Interesting he recommended a better board for OC


----------



## asdkj1740

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AlphaC*
> 
> Speaking of which there's a review of the Pro Carbon that claims it is a up1961S.
> https://ithardware.pl/testyirecenzje/test_plyt_gigabyte_z370_aorus_gaming_7_oraz_msi_z370_gaming_pro_carbon_ac-4002-8.html
> "FH UGF73K" used is claimed to be up1961S


google translate:
"In addition, the uP9508Q PWM controller, which natively supports five phases, and five MOSFET drivers. Four of them failed to identify, because of the very few "FH UGF73K" signs, while the latter was the uP1961S, which simultaneously functions as a phase doubler."

there are five little driver/doubler ic, one is marked as up1961s at the igpu vrm area, the rest are marked as "fh".
i doubt the "fh" ic is the same as up1961(s).

i have checked that hd3 / hd3p / ultra gaming all have the same vrm but with different solid caps.
therefore i would choose hd3p as it is way better than hd3 on other spec like audio and usb, and much more cheaper than ultra gaming.


----------



## gbates

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AlphaC*
> 
> Interesting finding from Tom's hardware
> 
> 
> newer BIOS
> 
> 
> http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/asrock-z370-taichi-intel-coffee-lake-atx-motherboard,5279-4.html


If I remember correctly tweaktown also tested Taichi and Godlike Z370 motherboards and Godlike was hotter than Taichi.

It is thought-provoking why they have opposite results, is it just variance in board quality or vrm mounting or poor testing methodology or something else?


----------



## ehume

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AlphaC*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *bl4ckdot*
> 
> Based on z270, what should we expect for Code/Formula compared to Hero for vrms ?
> 
> 
> 
> 8x 50A Optimos for CPU probably, since they're a higher segment than the ROG Hero , there's no reason they would put 40A parts unless they are doing outright bait-and-switch sales tactics
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *VRMfreak*
> 
> Probably the same OptiMOS everywhere, all Z270s used NexFETs (CSD87350Q5D). Wait for @AlphaC 's answer, he is the true expert.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The true researcher
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm not infallible, my information is only as good as the reviewers'. asdkj1740 helped me correct reviewers' mistake as far as doubling scheme on MSI boards (up1961 vs up1962).
> 
> Speaking of which there's a review of the Pro Carbon that claims it is a up1961S.
> https://ithardware.pl/testyirecenzje/test_plyt_gigabyte_z370_aorus_gaming_7_oraz_msi_z370_gaming_pro_carbon_ac-4002-8.html
> "FH UGF73K" used is claimed to be up1961S
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *tashcz*
> 
> Aorus gaming 5 vs 7, differences in VRMs? Does the 5 got the same high-value ones like the 7?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Unfortunately not. However, you have to keep in mind the 60A Intersil powerstages are about $7 each and the "server grade chokes" about $2 each. The Gaming 7 spent most of its Bill of Materials on parts.
> 
> The Gaming 5 is only about $160 on Newegg now, so if you don't care about absolute overclocks and memory over 3866MHz it's alright but for overclocking Fatal1ty K6 and Extreme4 are better bets ($140-160). The CPU VRM uses 8 phases of Onsemi 4C10+4C06 via Intersil's ISL6225A doubler (per GBT Matt) with phase interleaving. It's certainly an option versus a pricier $200 Asus Strix-E or MSI Pro Carbon AC.
> At $200 I would probably go for the Taichi or Gaming 7.
> 
> https://hk.xfastest.com/2326/gigabyte-z370-hd3p-review/
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gigabyte appears to use same VRM on all boards lower than gaming 5
> 
> https://hk.xfastest.com/2401/xf-msi-z370-tomahawk-review/
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Shouldn't buy a Tomahawk unless you don't require a stronger board than for MCE.
> 
> https://hk.xfastest.com/2245/asus-z370-e-gaming-review/
> 5.7GHz STRIX-E
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://hk.xfastest.com/2186/asrock-fatal1ty-z370-professional-gaming-i7/
> Sinopower memory VRM so probably Sinopower CPU VRM
> 
> Interesting finding from Tom's hardware
> 
> 
> newer BIOS
> 
> 
> http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/asrock-z370-taichi-intel-coffee-lake-atx-motherboard,5279-4.html
Click to expand...

Assuming price and availability do not get in the way, what is the best board for overclocking while keeping the VRM temps down? Your suggestion for an add-on opened out my choices (thank you). Now I'm looking at my requirements: I need to get the CPU hot for half-hour runs, over and over. Asda hint - I use Linpack with AVX2 to get the CPU's to maximum heat.


----------



## M4N1

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *asdkj1740*
> 
> google translate:
> "In addition, the uP9508Q PWM controller, which natively supports five phases, and five MOSFET drivers. Four of them failed to identify, because of the very few "FH UGF73K" signs, while the latter was the uP1961S, which simultaneously functions as a phase doubler."
> 
> there are five little driver/doubler ic, one is marked as up1961s at the igpu vrm area, the rest are marked as "fh".
> i doubt the "fh" ic is the same as up1961(s).
> 
> i have checked that hd3 / hd3p / ultra gaming all have the same vrm but with different solid caps.
> therefore i would choose hd3p as it is way better than hd3 on other spec like audio and usb, and much more cheaper than ultra gaming.


Proper translation of the whole chapter: (MSI Z370 GAMING PRO CARBON AC)
Quote:


> The VRM barely differs from its Z270 precedessor. We still have 22 MOSFETs, but this time a different model. These are 4C024 (12) and 4C029 (10) that can deliver up to 21.7/174A and 15/132A respectively (in continuous/pulse mode at 25C). There is also a uP9508Q PWM controller that supports 5 phases and 5 MOSFET drivers. I failed to identify 4 of them due to opaque name "FH UGF73K", and the fifth is uP1961S which acts as a phase doubler simultaneously. All in all, it seems to be a 3+3 configuration (for cores and iGPU).


They achieved pretty much the same results as on GB Gaming 7, however didn't measure VRM temps.

I have the infamous GB Ultra Gaming with 8700k and 280mm AIO. Running at 4900 1.27V, in games VRM is 70-75C max, in stress tests with ~155W TDP 8x degrees. For 5000 i need to bump voltage to 1.29 which results in 175W TDP in stress tests and VRM hitting 9x degrees.


----------



## OrionX

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AlphaC*
> 
> Steven's Taichi review https://www.tweaktown.com/reviews/8381/asrock-z370-taichi-motherboard-review/index3.html
> 
> Hardwareluxx's review of MSI Godlike https://www.hardwareluxx.de/index.php/artikel/hardware/mainboards/44598-msi-z370-godlike-gaming-im-test-high-end-platine-mit-drei-lan-ports.html?start=1
> 
> ----
> 
> Some thermal shots from http://diy.pconline.com.cn/1017/10179400_2.html
> 
> (above) ASUS TUF Z370-PRO GAMING , roasting as expected
> 
> 
> (above) Gigabyte Gaming 5
> 
> 
> (above) MSI Pro Carbon
> 
> 
> (above) iGame Z370 VULCAN X
> 
> 
> (above) Biostar GT6
> 
> 
> (Above) Asrock Fatal1ty k6
> 
> Note an aircooler worth $15 (100 yuan) was used and the author theorizes the K6 was heating from the CPU using the PCB as heatsink, rather than mosfets/chokes/inductors:
> *Gigabyte Gaming 5 might be OK*
> 
> Pugetsystems thermal images (usually they don't overclock) , via https://www.pugetsystems.com/parts/Motherboard/Gigabyte-Z370-AORUS-5-12308
> https://www.pugetsystems.com/parts/thermal_images/Motherboard/Gigabyte-Z370-AORUS-5-12308
> Fractal Design R5 case, EVGA GTX 1080
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> same thing but with a fan mounted at middle of the case to cool GPU
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> setup with GTX 1060 and no fan at middle of case
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!


Hello team!

Was absolutely decided to get the Fatality K6 before seeing these pics,should i get it or should i go with the Aorus Gaming 7 for 40$ more?

Thanks a bunch!


----------



## br0da

@AlphaC and @asdkj1740: Would you guys mind helping me out a bit with the MSI designs?
Tbh I don't know exactly what to fill in the list by now.


----------



## AlphaC

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ehume*
> 
> Assuming price and availability do not get in the way, what is the best board for overclocking while keeping the VRM temps down? Your suggestion for an add-on opened out my choices (thank you). Now I'm looking at my requirements: I need to get the CPU hot for half-hour runs, over and over. Asda hint - I use Linpack with AVX2 to get the CPU's to maximum heat.


If I remember your cooler testing (which is great by the way) you use air coolers mainly, so that means you would have higher airflow over the VRM than the closed loop water cooling tests done.

I'm not sure for AVX2 since I haven't seen that many reviews with that kind of load other than newer versions of Prime95 (28.5 or newer).

For Handbrake at least, the Taichi seems to be cooler than a Gaming 7 per tweaktown & Tom's hardware. I know you like Gigabyte's Dual BIOs but the Gaming 7 doesn't have the BIOS switch this time around ; while the Taichi has the BIOs jumper per their spec page and the pictures of the PCB ("BIOS select B").

The Maximus X Hero is another option due to the mosfets used but even though the heatsink doesn't inspire much confidence the switch times are super low for the other Optimos SKUs besides the one used on the ROG boards. Infineon claims 96% efficiency on their Optimos products. I believe the 50A Optimos can handle up to 70°C mosfet case temperature and the graphs for similar 50A Optimos suggest up to 90°C ; switch times are competitive. It's a solid choice if you don't care about the cost and lack of Dual BIOs. The cheapest I've seen it is on Superbiiz for $265. https://www.superbiiz.com/detail.php?name=MB-MAXHEWA

AFAIK the ROG Hero is used by OCUK and Siliconlottery for their testing.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *br0da*
> 
> @AlphaC and @asdkj1740: Would you guys mind helping me out a bit with the MSI designs?
> Tbh I don't know exactly what to fill in the list by now.


He thinks it's doubled for M5 and "fake doubled" (dual driver) for Pro Carbon & lower since UP1962 is not phase interleaved

Anyway I don't think anyone can recommend a MSI board for Z370 unless the design appeals to the person asking about it or there's something particular that sways them to MSI boards (brand loyalty for example).


----------



## tashcz

Wait, what the hell? Toms hardware article states that with the same cooler, the Godlike provides 10C less while stressing? How's that possible?


----------



## ehume

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AlphaC*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *ehume*
> 
> Assuming price and availability do not get in the way, what is the best board for overclocking while keeping the VRM temps down? Your suggestion for an add-on opened out my choices (thank you). Now I'm looking at my requirements: I need to get the CPU hot for half-hour runs, over and over. As a hint - I use Linpack with AVX2 to get the CPU's to maximum heat.
> 
> 
> 
> If I remember your cooler testing (which is great by the way) you use air coolers mainly, so that means you would have higher airflow over the VRM than the closed loop water cooling tests done.
> 
> I'm not sure for AVX2 since I haven't seen that many reviews with that kind of load other than newer versions of Prime95 (28.5 or newer).
> 
> For Handbrake at least, the Taichi seems to be cooler than a Gaming 7 per tweaktown & Tom's hardware. I know you like Gigabyte's Dual BIOs but the Gaming 7 doesn't have the BIOS switch this time around ; while the Taichi has the BIOs jumper per their spec page and the pictures of the PCB ("BIOS select B").
> 
> The Maximus X Hero is another option due to the mosfets used but even though the heatsink doesn't inspire much confidence the switch times are super low for the other Optimos SKUs besides the one used on the ROG boards. Infineon claims 96% efficiency on their Optimos products. I believe the 50A Optimos can handle up to 70°C mosfet case temperature and the graphs for similar 50A Optimos suggest up to 90°C ; switch times are competitive. It's a solid choice if you don't care about the cost and lack of Dual BIOs. The cheapest I've seen it is on Superbiiz for $265. https://www.superbiiz.com/detail.php?name=MB-MAXHEWA
> 
> AFAIK the ROG Hero is used by OCUK and Siliconlottery for their testing.
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *br0da*
> 
> @AlphaC and @asdkj1740: Would you guys mind helping me out a bit with the MSI designs?
> Tbh I don't know exactly what to fill in the list by now.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> He thinks it's doubled for M5 and "fake doubled" (dual driver) for Pro Carbon & lower since UP1962 is not phase interleaved
> 
> Anyway I don't think anyone can recommend a MSI board for Z370 unless the design appeals to the person asking about it or there's something particular that sways them to MSI boards (brand loyalty for example).
Click to expand...

Thanks for the direct answer. I think the Hero and the Godlike even break my bank. Would you say the Taichi is better than the Extreme4, or are they even?


----------



## AlphaC

Siliconlottery recommends the Z370 Extreme4 and PCGH recommends it as well (PCGH claims 60°C VRM temperatures). It's a solid board just like the Fatal1ty K6 , with the major gripe I have with it being the lack of Debug LED & heatpipe on the heatsink when the Fatal1ty K6 has one. As I'm sure you know the heatpipe between the two heatsinks increases effective fin area for the VRM to dissipate heat , I'll just mention that and not explain that in detail.

The Z370 Extreme4 has Dual BIOs as well as the Taichi + Fatal1ty k6 but the Dual BIOS implementation does not have any sort of switch or jumper. So essentially it's more as a restore "backup BIOS" function as on cheaper Gigabyte boards and this generation of Z370 Dual BIOs boards. You're less likely to brick your board due to a bad flash as a result , but as always there's no guarantees.

The Z370 Extreme4 also lacks the second Intel LAN so you can't use teaming. That's a niche function so it's not as important to most people.

The thing to keep in mind with the Z370 Extreme4 / K6 is that the PCB is not the same as the Taichi. The Taichi appears have more capacitors before the mosfets at the IO side area (so the VRM's input filtering probably) & the memory VRM is able to reach over 4333MHz easier due to the faster switching on the memory mosfets. That doesn't really matter on air but I'm mentioning it because it wouldn't be obvious without close inspection of the PCBs. If I had to nitpick I'd say the inclusion of the VGA port was not very good (there's DVI to VGA and HDMI/DP to VGA adapters) either.

The memory VRM on these boards is excellent though, with some users reporting over 4400MHz with Samsung B-die based DIMMs. At least one user on OCN (Chrisch I believe) reports comparable results on the K6 as on his ROG Hero.

Some people report that the Fatal1ty K6 has minor concerns with audio quality but reviews with Rightmark audio analyzer didn't reflect said issues (so it may be untrue or their own driver / interference issues). A difference between the Extreme4 and Fatal1ty K6 is an external baseclock generator & Texas instruments NE5532 amp so this may be screwing with audio perhaps , or maybe whatever they are using to push the Fatal1ty mouse port DPI & polling rates.

Both the Fatal1ty K6 and Extreme4 have had timely BIOS updates (faster than ASUS STRIX) so I'd expect them to receive great support til Z390 rolls around. If it's anything like the Taichi's BIOS update it's a large drop in VRM temperatures from the already decently low VRM temperatures that they had in older BIOs versions.

If you're on the budget side of things (which let's be honest, most people are unless they're spendthrifts), Asrock is giving an extra rebate to people for writing Newegg reviews, which lowers the Taichi to around $180 and the Extreme4/Fatal1ty K6 to around $140.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Brafall*
> 
> The Taichi is definitely better than the Extreme4.
> 
> If I understand correctly Asrock's line up according to performance looks like this like this:
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!
> 
> 
> 
> *Lower tier*
> 
> Pro4
> M Pro4
> *Lower mid-tier*
> 
> Killer SLI
> M-ITX/ac
> *Upper mid-tier*
> Extreme4
> Gaming K6
> *Upper tier*
> Taichi
> Professional Gaming i7
> 
> 
> Feel free to correct me.


You're correct as far as lineup but the Fatal1ty Pro Gaming i7 has been seen using Sinopower CPU phases more often than the Taichi. It also hasn't had a BIOS update from November 3 while the Taichi , K6 , and Extreme4 have.

Also for most users the Taichi provides extra features that they may not need. 3rd M.2 slot, memory more consistent over 4GHz, USB 3.1 gen 2 front panel header ,wifi+BT, etc.


----------



## Brafall

The Taichi is definitely better than the Extreme4.

If I understand correctly Asrock's line up according to performance looks like this:

*Lower tier*

Pro4
M Pro4
M-ITX/ac (non-Fatal1ty)
*Lower mid-tier*

Killer SLI
*Upper mid-tier*
Fatil1ty ITX/ac
Extreme4
Gaming K6
*Upper tier*
Taichi
Professional Gaming i7

Feel free to correct me.

*Corrected per feedback


----------



## Asus11

does anyone have anything on the Z370-I STRIX?

I heard ASUS stopped doing impact boards & all the STRIX boards (MITX) are Gaming Pro rebranded in terms of quality


----------



## Clausewitz

So, if you purchase Extreme4 or Gaming K6 you might not get Fairchild? How often are users reporting Sinopower mosfets on those boards? From what I can tell it's mostly review sites that have received Sinopower with no real user report of it.


----------



## royalkilla408

Hello everyone,

I need help selecting between the following motherboards please: Asrock Fatal1ty Z370 Gaming-ITX/ac and ASUS ROG Strix Z370-I. Both are ITX boards.

I purchased the ASUS board but I got a label to send it back when it gets here. I haven't gotten my CPU yet (8700k). I want the board to be able to overclock my CPU to 5GHz and run my 3600mhz ram.

The pros of the ASUS are 2x M.2 and front USB 3.1 gen 2 header.

The pros of the Asrock is that it has Thunderbolt 3 (is it full speed though?) and better quality components from what I've read.

I am going to be using Kraken X62 to cool my CPU. Then next year I'll do a custom loop watercooling. Thanks!


----------



## AlphaC

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *royalkilla408*
> 
> Hello everyone,
> 
> I need help selecting between the following motherboards please: Asrock Fatal1ty Z370 Gaming-ITX/ac and ASUS ROG Strix Z370-I. Both are ITX boards.
> 
> I purchased the ASUS board but I got a label to send it back when it gets here. I haven't gotten my CPU yet (8700k). I want the board to be able to overclock my CPU to 5GHz and run my 3600mhz ram.
> 
> The pros of the ASUS are 2x M.2 and front USB 3.1 gen 2 header.
> 
> The pros of the Asrock is that it has Thunderbolt 3 (is it full speed though?) and better quality components from what I've read.
> 
> I am going to be using Kraken X62 to cool my CPU. Then next year I'll do a custom loop watercooling. Thanks!


Asrock Fatal1ty ITX board is midend likely, it's got 5x 60A Intersil Smart powerstages.

Asus ITX board has been shown to throttle , which is understandable since the Onsemi 4C86N is package limited to 20A

I'm not sure if the Thunderbolt 3 USB 3.1 type C on the back of the Asrock Fatal1ty ITX is full speed USB 3.1 gen 2.

The STRIX-I throttling was reported in this thread , see post http://www.overclock.net/t/1638955/z370-z390-vrm-discussion-thread/450#post_26415211

4C86N Datasheet says for continuous operation the limit is 14A or so at 25°C mosfet case temperature which is more or less impossible , plus the package limit is 20A


----------



## royalkilla408

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AlphaC*
> 
> Asrock Fata1ty ITX board is midend likely, it's got 5x 60A Intersil Smart powerstages.
> 
> Asus ITX board has been shown to throttle , which is understandable since the Onsemi 4C86N is package limited to 20A
> 
> I'm not sure if the Thunderbolt 3 USB 3.1 type C on the back of the Asrock Fatal1ty ITX is full speed USB 3.1 gen 2.


From the Asrock website it says: 1 x Intel® Thunderbolt™ 3 (Compatible with USB 3.1 Gen2 and USB-C Display)*
*Supports USB PD 2.0 up to [email protected] (36W) charging

Does that mean it's full speed?

That sucks ASUS throttles, do you know where I can read about this?

Thanks again for your help!


----------



## Asus11

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *royalkilla408*
> 
> From the Asrock website it says: 1 x Intel® Thunderbolt™ 3 (Compatible with USB 3.1 Gen2 and USB-C Display)*
> *Supports USB PD 2.0 up to [email protected] (36W) charging
> 
> Does that mean it's full speed?
> 
> That sucks ASUS throttles, do you know where I can read about this?
> 
> Thanks again for your help!


have you checked out the MSI Z370I gaming pro carbon?

its the only one left im thinking of because the STRIX seems like a disappointment

just waiting for more clarification on it


----------



## royalkilla408

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Asus11*
> 
> have you checked out the MSI Z370I gaming pro carbon?
> 
> its the only one left im thinking of because the STRIX seems like a disappointment
> 
> just waiting for more clarification on it


Haven't check that board out yet. I've never owned an MSI product before. I'll check it out though. Thanks.


----------



## Neville0

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Asus11*
> 
> have you checked out the MSI Z370I gaming pro carbon?
> 
> its the only one left im thinking of because the STRIX seems like a disappointment
> 
> just waiting for more clarification on it


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *royalkilla408*
> 
> Haven't check that board out yet. I've never owned an MSI product before. I'll check it out though. Thanks.


I haven't seen the MSI ITX board readability available in the US.

I have Asrock Fatal1ty ITX, and it's a nice itx board. Obviously, the ATX boards will have better power delivery due to real-estate. I unfortunately don't own any Thunderbolt 3 devices to test the Thunderbolt connection so I don't know if it's an x2 or x4. You could email asrock support and they would probably tell you.

I personally think the asrock board is the best itx board from the known information, but we have yet to see the fets or heatsinks potential on the MSI or Gigabyte itx board.


----------



## AlphaC

http://www.clubedohardware.com.br/artigos/placas-mae/placa-m%C3%A3e-asrock-fatal1ty-z370-professional-gaming-i7-r36767/?nbcpage=3
Sinopower memory VRM


Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!






More Z370 Fatal1ty Gaming Pro i7 (the long name) boards with Sinopower fets

My theory is probably correct , Sinopower memory VRM on Fatal1ty Gaming Pro i7 / Taichi means Sinopower under the CPU VRM heatsink

Asus Z370-A


Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!






Sira12dp + SirA14dp variant sighting
http://www.clubedohardware.com.br/artigos/placas-mae/placa-m%C3%A3e-asus-prime-z370-a-r36768/?nbcpage=6

A MSI Pro Carbon review https://pctuning.tyden.cz/hardware/zakladni-desky/48817-msi-z370-gaming-pro-carbon-ac-herni-deska-pro-coffee-lake?start=6


----------



## Neville0

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Brafall*
> 
> The Taichi is definitely better than the Extreme4.
> 
> If I understand correctly Asrock's line up according to performance looks like this:
> 
> *Lower tier*
> 
> Pro4
> M Pro4
> *Lower mid-tier*
> 
> Killer SLI
> M-ITX/ac
> *Upper mid-tier*
> Extreme4
> Gaming K6
> *Upper tier*
> Taichi
> Professional Gaming i7
> 
> Feel free to correct me.


Which ITX board are you referencing? There's the Fatal1ty ITX/ac and the M-ITX/ac. The Fatil1ty ITX/ac is probably smack in the middle (not upper or lower) because the phases are not doubled and the M-ITX/ac is probably lower or lower middle if barley based on the vrm that they used.


----------



## RustySpoons

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AlphaC*
> 
> Asrock Fatal1ty ITX board is midend likely, it's got 5x 60A Intersil Smart powerstages.
> 
> Asus ITX board has been shown to throttle , which is understandable since the Onsemi 4C86N is package limited to 20A
> 
> I'm not sure if the Thunderbolt 3 USB 3.1 type C on the back of the Asrock Fatal1ty ITX is full speed USB 3.1 gen 2.
> 
> The STRIX-I throttling was reported in this thread , see post http://www.overclock.net/t/1638955/z370-z390-vrm-discussion-thread/450#post_26415211
> 
> 4C86N Datasheet says for continuous operation the limit is 14A or so at 25°C mosfet case temperature which is more or less impossible , plus the package limit is 20A


I can't believe I missed this in the thread. One of my boards is a Z370-I Strix. Shall I send it back? I'm a bit annoyed with myself as it seemed like it had a decent VRM setup.

What frequency would you run in to this issue?

Are there any better ITX boards?


----------



## catacavaco

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RustySpoons*
> 
> I can't believe I missed this in the thread. One of my boards is a Z370-I Strix. Shall I send it back? I'm a bit annoyed with myself as it seemed like it had a decent VRM setup.
> 
> What frequency would you run in to this issue?
> 
> Are there any better ITX boards?


if you are not planning on overclocking and/or using highspeed memory, that board is fine, the amount of power drawn when OC + High-speed mem makes the board shut itself down.
It was my mistake for overlooking the VRM configuration and just guessing that the 6 phases would be "more or less ok"

For the extra features like m.2, wifi, audio and whatever, i guess it would be tough to find an ITX board with better VRM that offers all those features.

But now that i learned my lesson and i cannot return it any more, im gonna run some matx tests and see which board can hold 5ghz + 3200mhz mem without overheating/throttling/shutting down

ps.: if your goal is to overclock on ITX, i would take a look at the ASRock fatality ITX and see what kind of VRM it holds


----------



## RustySpoons

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *catacavaco*
> 
> if you are not planning on overclocking and/or using highspeed memory, that board is fine, the amount of power drawn when OC + High-speed mem makes the board shut itself down.
> It was my mistake for overlooking the VRM configuration and just guessing that the 6 phases would be "more or less ok"
> 
> For the extra features like m.2, wifi, audio and whatever, i guess it would be tough to find an ITX board with better VRM that offers all those features.
> 
> But now that i learned my lesson and i cannot return it any more, im gonna run some matx tests and see which board can hold 5ghz + 3200mhz mem without overheating/throttling/shutting down
> 
> ps.: if your goal is to overclock on ITX, i would take a look at the ASRock fatality ITX and see what kind of VRM it holds


It's a Z chipset so bought it for overclocking. Surely they would have designed it for coping with an overclock.

Looking at the VRM it appears to be 8 or 9 phase from what I can see, I'll have to have another look later.

I've just been reading up and others have theirs trip over 200w, yours is over 120w did I read that correctly. Maybe it's faulty.

I need to have a good look in to this.

The AsRock is no good as my NVMe will throttle.


----------



## kevindd992002

Ok, this sucks. A local shop has 1 incoming 8700K tomorrow and I already had it reserved. The catch is that I also have to buy a Z370 board from them or they won't sell me the 8700K. The CPU is $400 so it seems to be a fair price considering low supply.

I'm waiting for the Code or Formula so I don't want any of the boards they sell plus the fact that their boards are priced even higher than what is already a high price tag on most Z370 boards now. My plan is to get a decent board and just sell it off here as I don't have any choice. People in my country (being a Third world one) are cheap so I'd rather not buy an expensive board because it's harder to sell. Which Z370 board is a bang-for-the-buck today that would server my purpose?


----------



## catacavaco

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RustySpoons*
> 
> It's a Z chipset so bought it for overclocking. Surely they would have designed it for coping with an overclock.
> 
> Looking at the VRM it appears to be 8 or 9 phase from what I can see, I'll have to have another look later.
> 
> I've just been reading up and others have theirs trip over 200w, yours is over 120w did I read that correctly. Maybe it's faulty.
> 
> I need to have a good look in to this.
> 
> The AsRock is no good as my NVMe will throttle.


i was actually using some outdated software to check the power usage (god i did everything wrong this time around







), with the latest HWInfo it shuts down at around 200w indeed (192ish to be exact)


----------



## RustySpoons

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kevindd992002*
> 
> Ok, this sucks. A local shop has 1 incoming 8700K tomorrow and I already had it reserved. The catch is that I also have to buy a Z370 board from them or they won't sell me the 8700K. The CPU is $400 so it seems to be a fair price considering low supply.
> 
> I'm waiting for the Code or Formula so I don't want any of the boards they sell plus the fact that their boards are priced even higher than what is already a high price tag on most Z370 boards now. My plan is to get a decent board and just sell it off here as I don't have any choice. People in my country (being a Third world one) are cheap so I'd rather not buy an expensive board because it's harder to sell. Which Z370 board is a bang-for-the-buck today that would server my purpose?


If you have to wait for your board you might as well wait for the CPU too. I wouldn't part with my cash in that shop with that kind of attitude.


----------



## RustySpoons

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *catacavaco*
> 
> i was actually using some outdated software to check the power usage (god i did everything wrong this time around
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ), with the latest HWInfo it shuts down at around 200w indeed (192ish to be exact)


That sounds about right then for this set up. As ITX is not as popular there seems to be very little info on these boards. I'd love to know what power delivery is on all the ITX Z370 boards.


----------



## kevindd992002

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RustySpoons*
> 
> If you have to wait for your board you might as well wait for the CPU too. I wouldn't part with my cash in that shop with that kind of attitude.


Right but it's just that I want to be sure already. I have a pre-order for the 8700K in Amazon and B$H too and I'm not sure if it's best to just go ahead and cancel those since the board that I want isn't available yet.


----------



## RustySpoons

Does anyone have a list of VRM and or current capability of the main ITX boards.

STRIX-I
Gigabyte Z370N-WIFI
AsRock Fatal1ty Z370 ITX
And whatever the MSI one is?


----------



## Neville0

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RustySpoons*
> 
> Does anyone have a list of VRM and or current capability of the main ITX boards.
> 
> STRIX-I
> Gigabyte Z370N-WIFI
> AsRock Fatal1ty Z370 ITX
> And whatever the MSI one is?


The STRIX-I and AsRock Fatal1ty Z370 ITX are already listed in the table on page 1. The Gigabyte one and the MSI one are not to be seen, but I imagine you could email Gigabyte and MSI support to get a pic out of them.

Also my m.2 doesn't throttle on my Faili1ty ITX, but that is most likely case and airflow dependent.


----------



## Telstar

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kevindd992002*
> 
> Which Z370 board is a bang-for-the-buck today that would server my purpose?


The Asrock extreme 4.


----------



## RustySpoons

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Neville0*
> 
> The STRIX-I and AsRock Fatal1ty Z370 ITX are already listed in the table on page 1. The Gigabyte one and the MSI one are not to be seen, but I imagine you could email Gigabyte and MSI support to get a pic out of them.
> 
> Also my m.2 doesn't throttle on my Faili1ty ITX, but that is most likely case and airflow dependent.


Yeah I saw that but I need further information, from what I can see looking at the Z370 Strix-I it looks more like 8/9 + Ram not 6. I will have to have a closer look.
I'd also like to know what current/wattage the Strix-I throttles, if it actually does.

And what the total current/wattage capability for the Fatal1ty is. I'm getting tempted to order one.


----------



## RustySpoons

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AlphaC*
> 
> catacavaco , did you increase current limit in the BIOS & put an AVX offset of -200MHz or -300MHz?
> 
> The mosfets used have a 20A hard limit (package limit) so obviously they will shut down regardless of cooling when you pass 20A per phase. The VRM heatsink is minimal as well.
> 
> https://www.hardwareinside.de/asus-rog-strix-z370-i-gaming-das-kleine-monster-28486/4/
> 
> 
> http://bibo.coolpc.tw/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=70&t=243669&start=0&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&sid=c495e9e6c12b64a7dc3113212b7432e6
> 
> 
> from datasheet
> 
> 
> 
> * The datasheet is based on 1.2V
> 
> Also please be aware that the SiRA12dp on the ASUS STRIX-E/F also have a 25A package limit. It's just that you are far less likely to hit it with 8 phases and a larger heatsink.


Great thats just the info I needed, didn't see this on my phone while reading this forum the past few days.
Those datasheets were perfect, thank you.

BUT, there are 8 or 9 of these on the Strix-I board, I can find lots of reviews where people are clocking the life out of this board, but only 1 guy where it's "Throttling" or shutting down (unless there are more?)
Not sure what to think or do.....


----------



## plant

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RustySpoons*
> 
> Great thats just the info I needed, didn't see this on my phone while reading this forum the past few days.
> Those datasheets were perfect, thank you.
> 
> BUT, there are 8 or 9 of these on the Strix-I board, I can find lots of reviews where people are clocking the life out of this board, but only 1 guy where it's "Throttling" or shutting down (unless there are more?)
> Not sure what to think or do.....


Looks like 6 for the cpu and 3 for the gpu. 20 amps x 6 phases x 1.5 volts = 180watts maximum theoretical if you can keep them cold. But 5ghz at 1.5v is a lot more than 180watts I can tell you that. For me, 5ghz at 1.4v is 200w in P95, 175w in realbench, 155w in cinebench. I think you will be dancing with the limit on that board with a 5ghz cpu, unless you get a really good bin and can run it at or under 1.3v.


----------



## plant

Conversely the asrock ITX has 5x 35amp phases good for 260 watts at 1.5v, and a heat pipe vrm cooler. Just a better ITX board for OCing.


----------



## AlphaC

https://3dnews.ru/960721
MSI Z370 Gaming Pro Carbon AC


Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!








http://diy.pconline.com.cn/1025/10253084_2.html



ASUS STRIX-F thermals

Asrock Fatal1ty ITX uses the same 60A Smart power stages as Gigabyte Gaming 7. It should be on par with Asus Z370-A at least once you account for the PCB size. The thermal resistance to ambient is only 10 °C/W with 1 sq inch of PCB. The Intersil smart power stages are some of the best power components available. As mentioned before they're also pricey at about $7 each.


----------



## Koniakki

https://hk.xfastest.com/2245/asus-z370-e-gaming-review/

DAT... CPU!


----------



## RustySpoons

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *plant*
> 
> Conversely the asrock ITX has 5x 35amp phases good for 260 watts at 1.5v, and a heat pipe vrm cooler. Just a better ITX board for OCing.


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *plant*
> 
> Looks like 6 for the cpu and 3 for the gpu. 20 amps x 6 phases x 1.5 volts = 180watts maximum theoretical if you can keep them cold. But 5ghz at 1.5v is a lot more than 180watts I can tell you that. For me, 5ghz at 1.4v is 200w in P95, 175w in realbench, 155w in cinebench. I think you will be dancing with the limit on that board with a 5ghz cpu, unless you get a really good bin and can run it at or under 1.3v.


Right got you, putting it that way it's a bit of a poor show.
I'll send this back!

Tempted to give up on this ITX project and just play with my ATX Build.


----------



## plant

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AlphaC*
> 
> Asrock Fatal1ty ITX uses the same 60A Smart power stages as Gigabyte Gaming 7. It should be on par with Asus Z370-A at least once you account for the PCB size. The thermal resistance to ambient is only 10 °C/W with 1 sq inch of PCB. The Intersil smart power stages are some of the best power components available. As mentioned before they're also pricey at about $7 each.


\

I could have sworn I looked at the stat sheet and the stages were 60A at 25c and 35A at 70C. correct me if I'm wrong.


----------



## Antsu

More data on this: my 8700K @ 5Ghz 1.45V no AVX offset consumes 179W in P95 29.3 and 35ishW idle according to HWiNFO (CPU Package Power to be exact) and seems to be somewhat in line with my Kill-A-Watt readings. 109W on idle with my GTX 1080Ti reporting 15% power usage, and 319W in P95 29.3 with the GTX still using 15%.


----------



## AlphaC

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *plant*
> 
> \
> 
> I could have sworn I looked at the stat sheet and the stages were 60A at 25c and 35A at 70C. correct me if I'm wrong.


Maybe you're thinking of the Fairchild FDPC5030SG parts (35A at 100°C and 56A at 25°C mosfet case temperature). Sinopower SM7341EHKP is rated for 46A at 100°C and 73A at 25°C mosfet case temperature as well , but keep in mind the switch times are higher even if the RDs(on) is lower at 1.2mΩ. I feel having lower switch times is more important when the transient performance is taken into account. Lower RDS(on) helps with heat and idle power consumption though.

Some other , more technical notes
---> If RDS(on) was the only metric that mattered then the MSI's Onsemi and Ubiq implementations aren't that bad: RDS(on) at V_GS=10V is 2.8mΩ for the OnSemi variant and 2.6mΩ for the Ubiq parts. However, the Onsemi 4C029 takes 26ns of rise time and 4ns to fall ("typical" so not worst case) while the Ubiq QN3103 takes a whopping *43ns* of rise time and 6ns of fall time. In contrast the Fairchild parts have a *maximum* rise time of 10ns and maximum fall time of 10ns , with "typical value" of 2ns rise/fall.
---> If you look at the 50A Optimos spec sheets, they have low RDS(on) but the switch time for the high side fet is about 4.7ns rise time and 1.4ns fall time along with shorter turn off delay time (low side dead time).
---> the Intersil Smart Power Stage is an outright beast: not only does it have low thermal resistance even without a heatsink on it, the RDS(on) is 0.76mΩ. T_RU and T_FU isn't specified however.

https://www.intersil.com/en/products/power-management/computing-power-vrm-imvp/smart-power-stage/ISL99227.html
https://www.intersil.com/en/products/power-management/computing-power-vrm-imvp/smart-power-stage/ISL99227B.html
Supports 60A DC current & looking at the graphs doesn't show otherwise since _Maximum Continuous Power Dissipation_ is listed as 12.5W


Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!












*Awards:*
2016 Product of the Year -- Electronic Product
2016 Product of the Year -- Electronic Products China/21ic.com
Embedded Computing Design nominated Intersil's Digital Multiphase Family of Controllers and Smart Power Stage a Top Innovative Product for 2017

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Antsu*
> 
> More data on this: my 8700K @ 5Ghz 1.45V no AVX offset consumes 179W in P95 29.3 and 35ishW idle according to HWiNFO (CPU Package Power to be exact) and seems to be somewhat in line with my Kill-A-Watt readings. 109W on idle with my GTX 1080Ti reporting 15% power usage, and 319W in P95 29.3 with the GTX still using 15%.


Thanks for reinforcing why the midrange boards are merely okay but without enough of a safety factor to be considered for higher clocks on poor binned chips. If you have a 180W load (with ~123A current load) and a package limit of 20A at 70 °C case temperature (SiRA12dp) it isn't going to work out well in terms of safety factor once you factor in the RDS(on) normalized for temperature. Essentially at 50°C your conduction losses for the low side are 1.1 times and at 75°C , your conduction losses are multiplied by 1.2X.



My 180W rating for the true midrange is pretty much spot on to what you got.









* The thermal image for the Asus Z370-F STRIX I posted earlier had about 1531 Cinebench R15 so that was probably with MCE on.

MSI is taking advantage of the LLC disaster at launch : https://www.msi.com/blog/LLC_what_is_it_and_why_are_MSI_Z370_motherboards_the_best_choice_for_overclocking

http://ru.gecid.com/mboard/gigabyte_z370_aorus_ultra_gaming/?s=all
Quote:


> The cooling system consists of three main aluminum radiators: one removes heat from the Intel Z370 chipset, while the other two cover the elements of the processor's power supply subsystem. During the testing, the following temperature indicators were recorded:
> 
> radiator cooling chipset - 31.7 ° C (when overclocked - 32.6 ° C);
> the upper cooler for cooling the elements of the processor's power supply subsystem is 37.1 ° C (when overclocked - 51.6 ° C);
> the lower cooler for cooling the elements of the processor's power supply subsystem is 43.2 ° C (when overclocked, 62.7 ° C);
> chokes - 47.5 ° C (when overclocked - 72.5 ° C).
> 
> In the nominal operating mode of the processor, the GIGABYTE Z370 AORUS Ultra Gaming cooling system is very good at the tasks. When overclocking, the indicators go up, but to critical values there is still a solid stock. Nevertheless, in the case of a stable high load in the mode of high overclocking, it is necessary to take care of the good cooling inside the case.


The power / voltage & clocks weren't specified. The review does mention 4900 MHz with a voltage of 1.284 V and also 5000 MHz with Vcore at 1,390 V.

I have reason to believe that the real temperature is much higher since reviews of the B350 AM4 boards had 80°C at the radiator when over 100°C at the back of the board.

https://news.xfastest.com/review/42803/rog-strix-z370-e-gaming-z370-f-gaming-full-functioning-gaming-motherboard-xf/
ASUS Z370-F STRIX (or officially ROG STRIX Z370-F GAMING)
Vishay SiRA14DP + SiRA12DP


----------



## royalkilla408

Thanks everyone for answering my question regarding the different Z370 ITX boards. Returning the ASUS Strix Z370-I and purchased the Asrock Z370 Gaming-ITX/AC instead. I wish ASUS still made Impact boards still. Now... if I could just get my hands on a 8700k lol. I preordered mine at B&H, I hope I get it soon. The wait is driving me crazy lol.


----------



## keplenk

Hey Guys,

I have a little less understanding about what is the best VRM available right now in any MOBO. But can anyone suggest what is the best *microATX* board that can be bought today for my 8700k - I will OC and my case is InWin 301.

Thanks!


----------



## GBT-MatthewH

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *tashcz*
> 
> Not lacking but behind most mobos right now in Blender, Cinebench, even gaming shows 1FPS less than others mostly... just wondering why that's happening. It's not a lot, its mostly 1% slower but I'm curious why thats happening.


You may want to dig into some reviews and see if they have a CPU-Z screen shot under load... You may find some boards running a BCLK of 100.50, by default, as opposed to 100 (+/- .01) on the AORUS... May not seem like a huge difference but it would account for 1% variance.


----------



## royalkilla408

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Neville0*
> 
> I haven't seen the MSI ITX board readability available in the US.
> 
> I have Asrock Fatal1ty ITX, and it's a nice itx board. Obviously, the ATX boards will have better power delivery due to real-estate. I unfortunately don't own any Thunderbolt 3 devices to test the Thunderbolt connection so I don't know if it's an x2 or x4. You could email asrock support and they would probably tell you.
> 
> I personally think the asrock board is the best itx board from the known information, but we have yet to see the fets or heatsinks potential on the MSI or Gigabyte itx board.


I asked Asrock support for info about Thunderbolt 3 if it is running at x2 or x4 and they said:

*"After checking with R&D, Z370 Gaming ITX/ac board's TB3 is run at PCI-E 3.0 x2"*

That sucks... anyways just FYI.


----------



## GBT-MatthewH

Some pics of the VRM from the Z370N Wifi. (sorry best I can do with my phone) I have the board at my desk so if you want a specific pic let me know.




4 Phase vcore, 2 phase VccGT: Intersil 95866 / ISL 6625A / Intersil 95858 / 4C10N / RT8120


----------



## AlphaC

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *keplenk*
> 
> Hey Guys,
> 
> I have a little less understanding about what is the best VRM available right now in any MOBO. But can anyone suggest what is the best *microATX* board that can be bought today for my 8700k - I will OC and my case is InWin 301.
> 
> Thanks!


You have less understanding now?









Anyway mATX isn't looking good for all manufacturers. You should probably go for the STRIX-G (Asus ROG STRIX Z370-G Gaming), although there's no promises on how well it will do. If the layout is the same as STRIX-F then you should be okay for 5.3GHz - 5.5GHz non-AVX. The MSI microatx board (MSI MSI Z370M GAMING Pro AC) has been proven to have a VRM which is really 4 phases with twice the mosfets so ripple ought to be higher. Higher ripple means you have less overclocking headroom since your minimum voltage is raised (the voltage fluctuation means core voltage = output voltage counting output ripple).

The only other mATX thus far is the ASRock Z370M Pro4 , which is going to be worse (push pin heatsinks on the main VRM and partially unheatsinked). There's a cheap Gigabyte microatx as well (Z370M D3H). There's supposed to be an EVGA mATX board coming soon.

Keep in mind this whole time I've repeated it again and again: you don't need a top motherboard to overclock if you just plan on gaming. AVX uses more power than SSE instructions and most CPUs in gaming _won't constantly be under 100% CPU_ load. You also don't need a top motherboard if you aren't delidding because once you hit 140W your CPU will start throttling even with a chiller (delidding drops up to 25 degrees CPU temps per OCUK). 4.9GHz to 5GHz @1.3V or so should be doable with a decent chip (50 percentile) using merely 130W or so for non-AVX , with the better ones hitting 5.1-5.2GHz with good cooling (copper radiator / dual 120mm aluminum radiator / a dual tower air cooler).

Power , voltage estimates from 1 month ago at launch http://www.overclock.net/t/1638955/z370-z390-vrm-discussion-thread/40#post_26380035

When you see people claim that they overclocked their Kaby Lake 4 cores to 5GHz on a 4 phase board, just disregard how ignorant they are... there's no architectural changes so you would need 6 phases for an equivalent VRM load on 6 core of similar overclock.

der8auer tested Prime 26.6 (non AVX) on the cheaper 4 phase boards with doubled up mosfets per phase and was only able to push 130W , with the VRM on the boards heating to 100°C.

@ GBT-MatthewH , thanks for not hiding the truth like a certain company that starts with an A.









I understand the hand you're dealt when the engineering team clearly designed around un-delidded chips throttling at about 140W, there's only so much you can do when the product has been designed and manufactured already. The bright side is for people that aren't going to go nuts on power (i.e. non overclockers) the Z370-N WIFI ITX offers a semi-affordable alternative complete with dual Intel LAN plus 4400MHz+ memory support listed , including a 4600Mhz QVL kit.

Anyway Z370-N WIFI looks like 4 phase 4c10n high side +4c06n low side assuming there's nothing on the back of the board (Gigabyte has done that on the AM4 socket with B350 Gaming 3). 4 phases 4C10N high side with doubled 4C06N low side. It's essentially not meant for overclocked 6 cores on AVX whatsoever... I'd say it's perfectly fine for a i5-8400 / i7-8700 or i3-8350k overclocked to 5GHz though (the 4 cores use about ~120W overclocked in AVX if Kaby Lake is anything to go by). https://www.gamersnexus.net/hwreviews/3106-intel-i3-8350k-review-overclocking-vs-i5-8400-r5-1600x/page-2

i7-8700k Cinebench R15 nT , 4.9Ghz 1.4V = 141W at ATX 12V connector https://www.gamersnexus.net/hwreviews/3076-intel-i7-8700k-review-vs-ryzen-streaming-gaming-overclocking/page-3

* edited for correctness

https://www.computerbase.de/2017-11/intel-core-i7-8700-i5-8600k-test-auto-oc-ddr4/4/#abschnitt_von_gluecksspiel_und_avxoffset
Quote:


> With load on all cores without AVX are with DDR4-4000 now 118 watts, 120 are it in the auto OC profile - instead of 104 watts in the factory setting. That's 13 or 15 percent more. When AVX is switched on, the power consumption of DDR4-4000 increases by 20 watts, with automatic overclocking by 33 watts - an increase of 24 percent. The temperature in this case already increases by 18 degrees, instead of 55 degrees before it is then 73 degrees.


Quote:


> The Intel Core i5-8600K from the trade made even 5 GHz in AVX applications with - it seems to be one of the better CPUs. With the knowledge, the normal clock could even be increased to 5.2 GHz, with AVX 5.0 GHz. In the Blender benchmark, the power consumption increased to 188 watts, the CPU was despite air cooling a maximum of 85 degrees warm - but without AVX load, it was equal to 15 degrees less.


157 to 188W for i5-8600k in Prime95


----------



## GBT-MatthewH

Def not designed for "overclocking", although it is _capable_. I feel like people ask about overclocking as if its the be-all-end-all sign of a good motherboard. Some boards are designed to push OC, like the Gaming 7, but lower boards are still more than capable with a good cooler. Are you going to max out your CPU? Maybe not... But you can still OC. Anyways I digress this board is designed A for small form factor & connectivity (2 Intel LAN, Wifi, etc).

4x 4C06N on the backside. Vcore is 1 high 2 low, mem is 1 high 1 low. Backside also has an M.2


----------



## RustySpoons

Asus Strix-I has been returned, AsRock has been ordered. Can't wait to get it and have a play around.


----------



## AlphaC

If you look around some other places there's still some ASUS apologists stating the ROG STRIX-E/F are better than Gigabyte Gaming 7 / 5 boards. I'd argue differently... but what do I know







Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RustySpoons*
> 
> Asus Strix-I has been returned, AsRock has been ordered. Can't wait to get it and have a play around.


Looking forward to see how far you can push those 60A Intersil Powerstages !









$200 EVGA Z370 FTW productpage has some interesting details

https://www.evga.com/products/product.aspx?pn=134-KS-E377-KR

6 layer PCB (not that impressive honestly)
Dual BIOS with switch
Post Code LED , Power/reset buttons
extra 6 pin PCIE power for GPUs
wifi slot M.2 Key E


(note -E377 , not -E277 as on Z270)
Might be 40A IR Powerstages as on prior EVGA Intel boards or Infineon Dr.MOS 88240 (TDA88240 = $0.75 each https://octopart.com/tda88240-infineon-76582746 "35A DrMos")

The ASUS ROG board in the hands of a world record holder can hit 5.3GHz non-AVX without airflow:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CoUtA7DKXhU


----------



## awesomegamer919

Uhh, so the pic on the first page with all the "Tiers" is dead.


----------



## br0da

Fixed!


----------



## RustySpoons

Just had this reply from AsRock...
"Z370 Gaming-ITX/ac supports VRM setup is 5+2 Power Phase design and maximum watt is 160W with AIO cooler.

Please refer to below link for Z370 Gaming-ITX/ac's specification.

Link: http://www.asrock.com/MB/Intel/Fatal1ty%20Z370%20Gaming-ITXac/index.asp#Specification

If you would like to overclock CPU, please use an AIO cooler."

Based on the above, I'm now wondering if the Strix-I is a better board?


----------



## drumsticks

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AlphaC*
> 
> $200 EVGA Z370 FTW productpage has some interesting details
> 
> https://www.evga.com/products/product.aspx?pn=134-KS-E377-KR
> 
> 6 layer PCB (not that impressive honestly)
> Dual BIOS with switch
> Post Code LED , Power/reset buttons
> extra 6 pin PCIE power for GPUs
> wifi slot M.2 Key E
> 
> 
> (note -E377 , not -E277 as on Z270)
> Might be 40A IR Powerstages as on prior EVGA Intel boards or Infineon Dr.MOS 88240 (TDA88240 = $0.75 each https://octopart.com/tda88240-infineon-76582746 "35A DrMos")


I hope their (EVGA) boards go on sale in the next few weeks. The product page with pricing details seems like a good start. I'd like to get my rig into my mATX case, and theirs looks like the best option. It seems like in theory (assuming the VRMs are the same across the board, which is absolutely not a given, but I hope all of their boards were enthusiast built), the Micro might be a decent step up from the Z370-G. I don't need my AVX as high as I can possibly get it bar nothing else, but I'd really like some more headroom than it sounds like the Strix-G will give me, which isn't really much for AVX.

Out of curiosity, why is the Z370-G so much lower than the F/E on the chart? Is it just because we haven't confirmed what the VRM Setup is? It looks like they at least have the potential to be identical, right?


----------



## AlphaC

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RustySpoons*
> 
> Just had this reply from AsRock...
> "Z370 Gaming-ITX/ac supports VRM setup is 5+2 Power Phase design and maximum watt is 160W with AIO cooler.
> 
> Please refer to below link for Z370 Gaming-ITX/ac's specification.
> 
> Link: http://www.asrock.com/MB/Intel/Fatal1ty%20Z370%20Gaming-ITXac/index.asp#Specification
> 
> If you would like to overclock CPU, please use an AIO cooler."
> 
> Based on the above, I'm now wondering if the Strix-I is a better board?


Ask Asus the same thing and they will tell you something different from the results obtained (i.e. they won't tell you it will shut off at ~ 200W since shutting off is a sign that it can't handle the load).

Asrock isn't going to tell you to pump 200W into an ITX board that isn't with watercooled VRM or monoblocked. Notice they mentioned 160W with AIO cooler, not a custom loop or similar. With an AIO it is actually worse since some people mount their AIO on the front of the case which starves the VRM heatsink of airflow. Due to the VRM design, the limitation can be because of several reasons:

input filter capacitor bank
mosfet (not this since 5 x 60A ones are used with a heatpiped heatsink)
mosfet cooling (the fin area is still lower than an ATX board due to PCB size)
inductor (not this since 5x 60A ones are used)
output filter capacitor
PCB (likely this)

If you ask Intel how many watts you can put into their CPUs it will probably be either the official TDP or ~130W (the throttle point without delid).

Steven tested this board actually, and it heated to merely 50-55°C under 4.9GHZ , 1.3V non-AVX https://www.tweaktown.com/reviews/8408/asrock-fatal1ty-z370-gaming-itx-ac-motherboard-review/index10.html

Consider under the same load the Taichi hit 49°C and the Gaming 7 hit 47°C. At sane loads it is very capable board.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *drumsticks*
> 
> I hope their (EVGA) boards go on sale in the next few weeks. The product page with pricing details seems like a good start. I'd like to get my rig into my mATX case, and theirs looks like the best option. It seems like in theory (assuming the VRMs are the same across the board, which is absolutely not a given, but I hope all of their boards were enthusiast built), the Micro might be a decent step up from the Z370-G. I don't need my AVX as high as I can possibly get it bar nothing else, but I'd really like some more headroom than it sounds like the Strix-G will give me, which isn't really much for AVX.
> 
> Out of curiosity, why is the Z370-G so much lower than the F/E on the chart? Is it just because we haven't confirmed what the VRM Setup is? It looks like they at least have the potential to be identical, right?


mATX PCB + no thorough reviews = uncertainty

Also all the STRIX boards had an LLC issue, which the Z370-G STRIX _supposedly_ had fixed.

That's why there's a question mark.

Everything midrange and above I have pretty much read reviews on, saw the PCB shots, saw decent overclocks on, etc

If I wanted to make the chart use miles of space I could break it down further , but that's what br0da's list is for : so people can have a more detailed comparison instead of just glancing at a colored chart.

I'm still iffy on the MSI Pro Carbon : people are arguing that it could be a 8 phase interleaved when it has been shown otherwise.


----------



## RustySpoons

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AlphaC*
> 
> Ask Asus the same thing and they will tell you something different from the results obtained (i.e. they won't tell you it will shut off at ~ 200W since shutting off is a sign that it can't handle the load).
> 
> Asrock isn't going to tell you to pump 200W into an ITX board that isn't with watercooled VRM or monoblocked. Notice they mentioned 160W with AIO cooler, not a custom loop or similar. With an AIO it is actually worse since some people mount their AIO on the front of the case which starves the VRM heatsink of airflow. Due to the VRM design, the limitation can be because of several reasons:
> 
> input filter capacitor bank
> mosfet (not this since 5 x 60A ones are used with a heatpiped heatsink)
> mosfet cooling (the fin area is still lower than an ATX board due to PCB size)
> inductor (not this since 5x 60A ones are used)
> output filter capacitor
> PCB (likely this)
> 
> If you ask Intel how many watts you can put into their CPUs it will probably be either the official TDP or ~130W (the throttle point without delid).
> 
> Steven tested this board actually, and it heated to merely 50-55°C under 4.9GHZ , 1.3V non-AVX https://www.tweaktown.com/reviews/8408/asrock-fatal1ty-z370-gaming-itx-ac-motherboard-review/index10.html
> 
> Consider under the same load the Taichi hit 49°C and the Gaming 7 hit 47°C. At sane loads it is very capable board.


Makes sense, I couldn't find any reference to the VRM by AsRock other than the inductors being 60a. Cheers for the link, looks a great board.


----------



## drumsticks

Looks like the EVGA Z370 FTW is actually now available for purchase, in case anybody is interested:

https://www.evga.com/products/product.aspx?pn=134-KS-E377-KR


----------



## Brafall

EVGA has the worst marketing in the industry. First they announce their MB a month after everyone else. Then they go into radio silence with no word on ETA or price. And then out of nowhere 1 out of the 3 boards is available and they expect you to buy it without a single review?


----------



## aDyerSituation

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *drumsticks*
> 
> Looks like the EVGA Z370 FTW is actually now available for purchase, in case anybody is interested:
> 
> https://www.evga.com/products/product.aspx?pn=134-KS-E377-KR


looks bland


----------



## Brafall

Funny enough that 'bland look' is about the only selling point they have. A lot of people don't like the whole RGB/gaming theme trend and would like a discrete looking motherboard.


----------



## aDyerSituation

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Brafall*
> 
> Funny enough that 'bland look' is about the only selling point they have. A lot of people don't like the whole RGB/gaming theme trend and would like a discrete looking motherboard.


It's not really discrete at all though. IO shield is huge. Also you can turn RGB off.


----------



## RustySpoons

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *aDyerSituation*
> 
> looks bland


Good


----------



## tashcz

That EVGA mATX looks... what the hell?

Angled 24pin mobo connector? Nice, wish more people implemented it.
8pin cpu + 4 pin cpu? What the...
8 power phases mATX... what's EVGA doing here?


----------



## RustySpoons

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *tashcz*
> 
> That EVGA mATX looks... what the hell?
> 
> Angled 24pin mobo connector? Nice, wish more people implemented it.
> 8pin cpu + 4 pin cpu? What the...
> 8 power phases mATX... what's EVGA doing here?


Yeah what's that extra 4pin CPU doing on the MATX and not on the ATX lol


----------



## Brafall

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *aDyerSituation*
> 
> It's not really discrete at all though. IO shield is huge. Also you can turn RGB off.


I know. But even with RGB off most motherboards look like something out of a TRON movie with neon stripes and tribal figures. Different people different tastes I guess.


----------



## RustySpoons

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Brafall*
> 
> I know. But even with RGB off most motherboards look like something out of a TRON movie with neon stripes and tribal figures. Different people different tastes I guess.


This is one reason I sent the Aorus Gaming 7 back, it looked so tacky!


----------



## bl4ckdot

Killer NIC on all EVGA board. Yup, that's a no.

EDIT : Nevermind, only on classy. Still :-(


----------



## RustySpoons

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bl4ckdot*
> 
> Killer NIC on all EVGA board. Yup, that's a no.


Only the Classified, the other 2 are Intel.


----------



## bl4ckdot

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RustySpoons*
> 
> Only the Classified, the other 2 are Intel.


My bad, misread.


----------



## aDyerSituation

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Brafall*
> 
> I know. But even with RGB off most motherboards look like something out of a TRON movie with neon stripes and tribal figures. Different people different tastes I guess.


Agreed to an extent. My favorite looking board so far is the hero because it's not too flashy but has a little bling


----------



## RustySpoons

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *aDyerSituation*
> 
> Agreed to an extent. My favorite looking board so far is the hero because it's not too flashy but has a little bling


I'm over the moon with my Hero, amazing build quality, clocks well, subtle lights (Mine are all red) and stunning audio quality.


----------



## drumsticks

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RustySpoons*
> 
> Yeah what's that extra 4pin CPU doing on the MATX and not on the ATX lol


I've seen an official EVGA rep mention that the Classified K and the Micro (both with the optional extra 4pin CPU power) were built specifically with overclocking in mind. Might explain why they're on those two but not the FTW.

Realistically, how necessary is that extra four pin, though? It doesn't look like the Hero or Gaming 7 have them, for example; do they provide any actual major benefits?


----------



## RustySpoons

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *drumsticks*
> 
> I've seen an official EVGA rep mention that the Classified K and the Micro (both with the optional extra 4pin CPU power) were built specifically with overclocking in mind. Might explain why they're on those two but not the FTW.
> 
> Realistically, how necessary is that extra four pin, though? It doesn't look like the Hero or Gaming 7 have them, for example; do they provide any actual major benefits?


There is no need at all tbh on this platform, epeen maybe lol?
Or maybe LN2


----------



## AlphaC

12V connectors Max input power
1x 8-pin = 288W
1x 8-pin + 1x 4-pin = 432W
2x 8-pin = 576W
http://www.overclock.net/t/1632665/intel-x299-socket-2066-vrm-thread/140#post_26207921

(From elmor)

It's the reason why the Apex is capable of more (on exotic cooling) than the Gaming 7 / ROG Hero. The Godlike has 8+4 pin.

*Monoblocks*
Z370-E/F STRIX = https://www.ekwb.com/shop/ek-fb-asus-z270e-strix-rgb-monoblock-nickel
Z370-A = https://www.ekwb.com/shop/ek-fb-asus-z270e-strix-rgb-monoblock-nickel
Z370I = https://www.ekwb.com/shop/ek-fb-asus-z270i-strix-rgb-monoblock-nickel --- semi useless due to package current limit
Z370 Gaming 7 = https://www.ekwb.com/shop/ek-fb-ga-z270x-rgb-monoblock-nickel (EK claims it is compatible)
Z370 Gaming 5 = https://www.ekwb.com/shop/ek-fb-ga-z270x-rgb-monoblock-nickel (not surprising)
Pro Carbon = https://www.ekwb.com/shop/ek-fb-msi-z270-gaming-rgb-monoblock-nickel
Krait = https://www.ekwb.com/shop/ek-fb-msi-z270-gaming-rgb-monoblock-nickel
Tomahawk = https://www.ekwb.com/shop/ek-fb-msi-z270-gaming-rgb-monoblock-nickel
SLI PLUS = https://www.ekwb.com/shop/ek-fb-msi-z270-gaming-rgb-monoblock-nickel

Custom loop configurator puts i7-8700k overclocked at 180W (https://www.ekwb.com/custom-loop-configurator/)

Just how far a copper radiator can take you:


edited from https://www.ekwb.com/blog/radiators-part-2-performance/



edited from https://www.ekwb.com/blog/radiators-part-3-surface-thickness/


http://www.xtremerigs.net/2016/02/25/hardware-labs-nemesis-280-gtx-radiator-review/5/

AIOs

http://www.coolingtechnique.com/recensioni/altro/aio-liquidi-compatti/1730-recensione-coolermaster-masterliquid-240-pro.html?start=7

Keep in mind unless you buy an Asus ROG APEX or MSI Godlike you are limited by a 8 pin CPU power connector.

https://www.asus.com/us/Motherboards/TUF-Z370-PRO-GAMING/HelpDesk_BIOS/
TUF Z370-PRO GAMING BIOS 0505 --- November 2
Improve system stability

https://www.asus.com/us/Motherboards/ROG-STRIX-Z370-H-GAMING/HelpDesk_BIOS/
Version 0505 ----2017/10/27
ROG STRIX Z370-H GAMING BIOS 0505
Improve system stability

Supposedly fixes LLC?

Both are still garbage, but it's a start.

Another Asus Z370-A with Sira12dp
https://www.ixbt.com/mainboard/asus-prime-z370-a.html



https://www.msi.com/blog/Buying-guide-Intel-8th-Gen-Gaming-Motherboard-MSI-Z370
Z370 Godlike marketing









http://www.ixbt.com/mainboard/msi-z370-godlike-gaming.html

Core i5-8600K Core i7-8700K
Level 0
Level 1 4,2-4,4 4,4-4,8
Level 2 4,3-4,5 4,5-4,9
Level 4 4,4-4,6 4,6-5,0
Level 6 4,5-4,7 4,7-5,1
Level 8 4,6-4,8 4,8-5,2
Level 10 4,7-4,9 4,9-5,3
Level 11 4,8-5,0 *5,0-5,4*

The more reasonably priced Extreme4 : Fairchild FDPC5030 variant spotted
http://www.hwbattle.com/bbs/board.php?bo_table=hottopic&wr_id=8161

Bios shots with presets


Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!


----------



## Lightningln

Like it's too hard to turn off the LED (wich you can do even in the bios).. or even customize the different zone with the software. There marketing is based on that, how the **** could anyone buy that if you don't like the aspect in the first place ?? Not like we're in 2017 with many videos and review uhh..









ROG bs is everywhere these day it seem.







Geez...


----------



## moustang

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RustySpoons*
> 
> This is one reason I sent the Aorus Gaming 7 back, it looked so tacky!


I guess I never got into the whole "Stare at my motherboard all day rather than using my PC where I'm staring at my monitor" kick myself.

I disabled the LEDs on my Gaming 7 because I game in the dark and don't like the glow in my peripheral vision. Other than that I have no reason to ever look in my case and really couldn't care less how it looks. As long as it's functioning to the best of it's ability that's all I ever cared about.

That said, I will admit, the yellow wire on the PCIe power lead bothers me.


----------



## RustySpoons

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *moustang*
> 
> I guess I never got into the whole "Stare at my motherboard all day rather than using my PC where I'm staring at my monitor" kick myself.
> 
> I disabled the LEDs on my Gaming 7 because I game in the dark and don't like the glow in my peripheral vision. Other than that I have no reason to ever look in my case and really couldn't care less how it looks. As long as it's functioning to the best of it's ability that's all I ever cared about.
> 
> That said, I will admit, the yellow wire on the PCIe power lead bothers me.


This is my 8700K build, not had chance to turn off the LED yet, But I did 3D print a cable cover for the 24pin ATX, it's still being built atm and testing stuff so
no cable management done or tidying up, all the case sides are off.


----------



## moustang

I don't see why the appearance of the Gaming 7 would bother you at all. You couldn't possibly see the thing behind that massive heatsink.


----------



## RustySpoons

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *moustang*
> 
> I don't see why the appearance of the Gaming 7 would bother you at all. You couldn't possibly see the thing behind that massive heatsink.


I can see enough for it to bother me, would rather have no LED and better VRM cooling.

Though to be fair yours looks good without the LED, I didn't recognise it.

By the way, that yellow power cable is easy to sort out. Wrap it with some self amalgamating tape.


----------



## aliquiswe

I've finally got my on release day ordered i7 8700k in the mail yesterday but still don't have any motherboard and ram.

I've been checking out this thread a bit every now and then. I'm unsure about delidding so oc would end up pretty mild. Didn't ordered tridentz when they cost 25% less because I have an nh-u12 cooler and don't know whatever to get something better like nh-d15 or aio and in the former case whateverthe rgb ram is worth getting at all. I feel like spending more on 8700k and cooler and not delid for minimal gains over i7 8700 with old cooler may be a very bad economical decision. Unsure were to go but my AMD Phenom X4 9850 is definitely trash and I need a better system.

What motherboard should I order?
I've got the impression here asrock z370 extreme 4 is a nice middle ground. Also come with three m2 slots and front usb type c header though all cases lack that anyway. I assume no thunderbolt? Rgb is a bit uglier and it has nichicon gold rather than chemicon audio caps for sound if that matter.
K6 cost more but have the bulk generator.
Komplwtt offered 400 sek discount on purchase above 2000 sek two weeks ago and I could had gotten asus z370-a prime or msi z370 pro carbon (ac?)then. Given the same or lower price than the extreme if I had used that would those had been better or worse boards in general?
I haven't followed all the strix talk. Anyone will ing to share the current situation and against the prime and extreme board?

I've seen the temp reading on the extreme board. Anything which is standard and that I should be bothered with?

Gigabyte gaming 5 and 7 boards both cost quite a bit more. The look nicer though and come with a tiny bit of Steam wallet as compensation. How's gaming 5 vs extreme4 and should I care?

Basically should I order extreme4 or something else?

1699 extreme4.
1999 k6 (what is better?)
1829 a prime, could had been 1490.
1859 strix g, could had been 1690.
2095 strix f, could had been 1849.
2199 strix i, could had been 1890.
2349 strix e, could had been 2049.
1749 pro carbon, could had been 1599.
2099 pro carbon ac, could had been 1779.
2399 gaming 5 with €20 steam wallet.
2685 gaming 7 with €40 steam wallet.

What to pick and why?


----------



## Koniakki

Asrock Extreme 4 arrived along with a friend!

Intersil ISL69138 I see there from a quick look.


----------



## unkletom

Nice gear when you get the time record the RAM speeds with AIDA64 on 4266 RAM. I find that bios 1.20 for some reason has very slow Write and Copy speeds at high speeds. Afaik it's because of hidden RAM settings that Asrock sets itself. Bios 1.11 beta speeds are fine as seen in screenshot.


----------



## aliquiswe

I think the Gaming 7 looks nice and the only "tacky" aspect beyond that it has RGB at all would be the strip to the right I suppose but I think that can both be removed and shut down.

I don't understand why ROG would be less tacky considering the REPUBLIC OF GAMERS feel very tacky if anything. As does gaming in general. But ASUS is the most screaming about it I guess. Seem to be good boards though.


----------



## scracy

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *aliquiswe*
> 
> I think the Gaming 7 looks nice and the only "tacky" aspect beyond that it has RGB at all would be the strip to the right I suppose but I think that can both be removed and shut down.
> 
> I don't understand why ROG would be less tacky considering the *REPUBLIC OF GAMERS feel very tacky if anything*. As does gaming in general. But ASUS is the most screaming about it I guess. Seem to be good boards though.


I kinda have to agree with you there, the whole ROG thing is tacky especially when they have a presentation in their vinyl red/black uniforms but I also think its fair to say ROG boards are no longer tacky in terms of aesthetics as they were in the past with the red DIM slots etc. Either way there is no denying their true ROG boards currently are very good and have been for a few generations now


----------



## gbates

Just got Taichi.
Memory VRM is from Fairchild, will take look under heatsinks later today.
CPU should arrive tomorrow and I bought cheapest B-Die I could find so I chose TridentZ 3000 CL14 

If someone has any questions regarding the board let me know.


----------



## RustySpoons

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *aliquiswe*
> 
> I think the Gaming 7 looks nice and the only "tacky" aspect beyond that it has RGB at all would be the strip to the right I suppose but I think that can both be removed and shut down.
> 
> I don't understand why ROG would be less tacky considering the REPUBLIC OF GAMERS feel very tacky if anything. As does gaming in general. But ASUS is the most screaming about it I guess. Seem to be good boards though.


Yeah it was that strip that finished it off for me, it looked awful though I'm sure you can remove it.
I'm not a fan of ITE super IO/supervisor IC's which Gigabyte insist on using, I've also had to remove countless amounts of smd eeprom bios chips from Gigabyte boards over the years due cold boots and bios corruption
they continue to carry on using these 8 pin eeproms with a limited lifecycle that get worn out. Granted I have a workshop with smd rework equipment but still I thought they would switch to something else or better quality chips by now.

The tackyist thing is MSI's Dragon cum Scorpio thing, I can't buy any of their products that have that plastered all over it.


----------



## RustySpoons

The Aorus Gaming 7 is now down to £244 with a AIO water cooler in the UK, that's not a bad price!


----------



## Ajjlmauen

What is a good Z370 board atm? I'm not brand loyal, and i don't care about aesthetics much. But a solid VRM and features such as clear cmos, onboard power and reset buttons are a must.

What do you suggest??


----------



## RustySpoons

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ajjlmauen*
> 
> What is a good Z370 board atm? I'm not brand loyal, and i don't care about aesthetics much. But a solid VRM and features such as clear cmos, onboard power and reset buttons are a must.
> 
> What do you suggest??


AsRock is best value for money.


----------



## scracy

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ajjlmauen*
> 
> What is a good Z370 board atm? I'm not brand loyal, and i don't care about aesthetics much. But a solid VRM and features such as clear cmos, onboard power and reset buttons are a must.
> 
> What do you suggest??


If you are on a budget Asrock Taichi is a good choice and great value for money, if you are willing to spend a bit more ROG Maximus X Hero would be a good choice


----------



## ehume

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ajjlmauen*
> 
> What is a good Z370 board atm? I'm not brand loyal, and i don't care about aesthetics much. But a solid VRM and features such as clear cmos, onboard power and reset buttons are a must.
> 
> What do you suggest??


I liked the power and reset buttons, too. But users sent me two links: here and here.


----------



## Ajjlmauen

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RustySpoons*
> 
> AsRock is best value for money.


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *scracy*
> 
> If you are on a budget Asrock Taichi is a good choice and great value for money, if you are willing to spend a bit more ROG Maximus X Hero would be a good choice


I'm not on a budget, i just want to make sure i get something good.


----------



## scracy

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ajjlmauen*
> 
> I'm not on a budget, i just want to make sure i get something good.


If I were going to Z370 which I still might I would buy Maximus X Formula which is not available yet but will be sometime this month, its hard to recommend a board without knowing what is important to you ie: how the PCI-E chipset lanes a divided up,WiFi,Bluetooth,how many external USB ports, water cooling,air cooling,aio etc


----------



## RustySpoons

I bought regardless of cost, I went for the Maximus Hero X for my ATX build and the ASRock Gaming ITX Fatal1ty for my ITX build,
they had the features I needed. I did try a Gaming 7 and a Strix-I but they weren't suited to me, but are to other people.

Talking of boards my ASRock Gaming ITX has just turned up, trying it out


----------



## aliquiswe

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RustySpoons*
> 
> Yeah it was that strip that finished it off for me, it looked awful though I'm sure you can remove it.
> I'm not a fan of ITE super IO/supervisor IC's which Gigabyte insist on using, I've also had to remove countless amounts of smd eeprom bios chips from Gigabyte boards over the years due cold boots and bios corruption
> they continue to carry on using these 8 pin eeproms with a limited lifecycle that get worn out. Granted I have a workshop with smd rework equipment but still I thought they would switch to something else or better quality chips by now.
> 
> The tackyist thing is MSI's Dragon cum Scorpio thing, I can't buy any of their products that have that plastered all over it.


For me I'm fine with the strip.
But it of course have 0 other functionality than being a plastic strip leading light with a pattern carved into it.
So it's just decoration. No functionality. Maybe that can be said for the IO shroud too but it would look worse without so ..

And the ROG boards are good, and the republic of gaming part of the board was pretty discrete.

I'm in the camp where I feel the stuff with "more" like the Gigabyte board at-least do it with confidence and everywhere opening up for more effects and such whereas in the extreme other end you have just the bright right LED which show the board got power/is on and the coolermaster AIOs which have a blue led in the pump just shining blue. The ASRock Motherboards don't have all that much lighting even the expensive ones so there it look kinda "scarce"/"alone" like a few lamps on some pole or air strip (which use more than a few..), kinda isolated and not part of a theme so to say. With lit up fans and memory one can of course tie it together better but with like the Gaming 7 even if you have cheap Corsair black sticks with no RGB you can still get light in that area so it look lit up and shiny anyway. If you are going to do it do it! Don't just put in one led under some piece and call it a day =P, "hey, look at me! I've got LED!"

Whatever








I guess I care more about whatever it could run i7 8700K OC at less power than the rgb layout anyway, but for me personally it look just fine









Found it, CCL.
What does Lite mean in the name? Should I order that?

"ITE super IO/supervisor IC'" - I don't know what this is. Feel free to explain.

No dragon: https://hexus.net/media/uploaded/2017/10/a88d5693-ed81-46dc-aeae-fd62cad27da9.png
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RustySpoons*
> 
> The Aorus Gaming 7 is now down to £244 with a AIO water cooler in the UK, that's not a bad price!


Where? I live in Sweden but chances are I could order anyway. I have a Noctua NH-U12 and don't really know whatever I actually want to sink like £200 extra into K + AIO + maybe more for decent OC but if I get a free AIO / free Gaming 7 upgrade then that have my interest atleast.
They have graphics for the offer but maybe that doesn't mean it will be around in other stores too?

https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=2YM-0004-00011
2 leaks and 1 rattling fans out of 3 reviews =P
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ajjlmauen*
> 
> What is a good Z370 board atm? I'm not brand loyal, and i don't care about aesthetics much. But a solid VRM and features such as clear cmos, onboard power and reset buttons are a must.
> 
> What do you suggest??


For the buttons the Extreme4 lacks them but the K6 have them
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *scracy*
> 
> If I were going to Z370 which I still might I would buy Maximus X Formula which is not available yet but will be sometime this month, its hard to recommend a board without knowing what is important to you ie: how the PCI-E chipset lanes a divided up,WiFi,Bluetooth,how many external USB ports, water cooling,air cooling,aio etc


If you care enough about PCI-lanes shouldn't one go HEDT instead anyway?
Historically that has been a much cooler upgrade path too =P


----------



## tashcz

Guys, can anyone draw a comparison of Aorus gaming 7 vs Maximus Hero X, VRM wise? Haven't found any reviewers owning both to see whether one could clock better.


----------



## RustySpoons

Has anyone else got the Asrock Fatal1ty Gaming ITX?

Not a huge problem but noticed a little bug?, if I change something in the BIOS every reboot (Windows) it will double boot briefly and keep doing so
every time I restart.

However if I power it off and back on again it will reboot normally, it's not an issue just a quirk.


----------



## encrypted11

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RustySpoons*
> 
> I bought regardless of cost, I went for the Maximus Hero X for my ATX build and the ASRock Gaming ITX Fatal1ty for my ITX build,
> they had the features I needed. I did try a Gaming 7 and a Strix-I but they weren't suited to me, but are to other people.
> 
> Talking of boards my ASRock Gaming ITX has just turned up, trying it out


Is there a way you could disable the red led accents?


----------



## gbates

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RustySpoons*
> 
> Has anyone else got the Asrock Fatal1ty Gaming ITX?


If I remember correctly user Neville0 has this board.


----------



## RustySpoons

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *encrypted11*
> 
> Is there a way you could disable the red led accents?


Yes you can switch it off or change the colour.


----------



## catacavaco

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RustySpoons*
> 
> Yes you can switch it off or change the colour.


Let us know about max power, vrm and CPU temps, voltages and memory clocks


----------



## NickLe

Hey good folks, I've been hovering these threads since I got my cpu: 8700K.
Finally pulled the trigger with xxxxxxx mb (see if you can see)
and the Team Dark Pro 3200 cas 14 8GBx2
Samsung 960 Evo 1TB
Corsair AX1200i
Corsair H110i GT
all Noctua fans @ 500rpm (Sssssilent) (8x NF-A14 PWM)
The loudest thing on my sys is the psu fan @ 40% fixed duty (700rpm) Yate Loon (oh how I wish I could change the fan to a Noctua)
MSI Lightning 1080ti
The Case is a Thermaltake F51 Suppressor

https://imgur.com/a/7WChe


----------



## RustySpoons

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *NickLe*
> 
> Hey good folks, I've been hovering these threads since I got my cpu: 8700K.
> Finally pulled the trigger with xxxxxxx mb (see if you can see)
> and the Team Dark Pro 3200 cas 14 8GBx2
> Samsung 960 Evo 1TB
> Corsair AX1200i
> Corsair H110i GT
> all Noctua fans @ 500rpm (Sssssilent) (8x NF-A14 PWM)
> The loudest thing on my sys is the psu fan @ 40% fixed duty (700rpm) Yate Loon (oh how I wish I could change the fan to a Noctua)
> MSI Lightning 1080ti
> The Case is a Thermaltake F51 Suppressor
> 
> https://imgur.com/a/7WChe


Gaming 7







, what is the VRM cooling?
Why don't you change the PSU fan









I have the "8 Pack" version of that ram. It's good stuff.


----------



## RustySpoons

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *catacavaco*
> 
> Let us know about max power, vrm and CPU temps, voltages and memory clocks


I've only got a "placeholder" CPU in there for now (8400), debating whether to go 8700K or 8600K. Did mess around with it hoping ASRock would have some tricks for BCLK OC on non K but no such luck with newer gen Intel. Was nearly tempted to pull my 8700K out of my other rig to play around with it.

Got a Phanteks Shift X on its way today, need to price up some EK bits to build a custom loop.

Board seems amazing so far, quality is lovely, bios is nice to use, VRM and PCH temps nice and cool.


----------



## aliquiswe

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RustySpoons*
> 
> Gaming 7


It's just the 7 now =P


----------



## asdkj1740

https://www.tweaktown.com/reviews/8413/asus-rog-maximus-apex-intel-z370-motherboard-review/index3.html

impressive review on apex z370 from tweaktown by Steven Bassiri

sadly there is no a clear photo about the doublers.


----------



## RustySpoons

Excuse the pics, in a rush to go out.

Shift X Just turned up for the ITX build...


----------



## br0da

IR shots of the Gigabyte Gaming 7 @ TweakPC
Temps of up to 95 degrees were measured while overclocking.

*Edit:* Gigabyte Z370M D3H Review @ coolpc TW forums

@GBT-MatthewH: Is it Z370 HD3 = Z370 HD3P = Z370XP SLI for the VRMs?


----------



## moustang

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *br0da*
> 
> IR shots of the Gigabyte Gaming 7 @ TweakPC
> Temps of up to 95 degrees were measured while overclocking.


Old news and seems to be a rare incident. I've heard of maybe 4 or 5 people having overheating VRM issues out of the dozens of users that I've talked to. My own Gaming 7 VRM stays in the 56-60C range when overclocked over 5GHZ.


----------



## VRMfreak

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RustySpoons*
> 
> Excuse the pics, in a rush to go out.
> 
> Shift X Just turned up for the ITX build...


That case looks sweet.
Correct me if i am wrong, but i think that ITX boards aren't really meant for 5+GHz overclocks on such a hungry bastard as 8700K. Of course Asus should've used at least the NexFETs, it would be miles better.


----------



## asdkj1740

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *br0da*
> 
> IR shots of the Gigabyte Gaming 7 @ TweakPC
> Temps of up to 95 degrees were measured while overclocking.
> 
> *Edit:* Gigabyte Z370M D3H Review @ coolpc TW forums
> 
> @GBT-MatthewH: Is it Z370 HD3 = Z370 HD3P = Z370XP SLI for the VRMs?


Z370 HD3 = Z370 HD3P, i had these two boards.


----------



## mabman

How is the Z370 MSI gaming M5? I'm looking at either that or the Taichi. Tried to read some of this thread but didn't want to go through all 90 pages hoping to find 1 post regarding it. Also off VRM topic but is Killer lan still plagued with issues?

Thanks in advance for the help.


----------



## GBT-MatthewH

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *br0da*
> 
> @GBT-MatthewH: Is it Z370 HD3 = Z370 HD3P = Z370XP SLI for the VRMs?


Yes, they should all be identical VRM's... 4+3 ISL 95866 / ISL 6625A


----------



## asdkj1740

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mabman*
> 
> How is the Z370 MSI gaming M5? I'm looking at either that or the Taichi. Tried to read some of this thread but didn't want to go through all 90 pages hoping to find 1 post regarding it. Also off VRM topic but is Killer lan still plagued with issues?
> 
> Thanks in advance for the help.


m5 sucks.

i cant fully understand z370 taichi vrm, if there are no external doublers but just 12 drivers for 10+2 phases, then how to double them up 5 vcore pwm signals from the vcore controller ISL69138.
do ISL69138 support doubling function integrated?


----------



## asdkj1740

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *GBT-MatthewH*
> 
> Yes, they should all be identical VRM's... 4+3 ISL 95866 / ISL 6625A


do you notice the vrm cooling problem on these low end board (same 4+3 design with the same heatsinks)?? or it is just misread from hwinfo?
running prime95, vrm temp reaches 120c.


----------



## br0da

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *GBT-MatthewH*
> 
> Yes, they should all be identical VRM's... 4+3 ISL 95866 / ISL 6625A


Is it also the same for Gaming 3 and Gaming K3?


----------



## GBT-MatthewH

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *br0da*
> 
> Is it also the same for Gaming 3 and Gaming K3?


Very similar, same components, but slightly different layout.


----------



## GBT-MatthewH

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *asdkj1740*
> 
> do you notice the vrm cooling problem on these low end board (same 4+3 design with the same heatsinks)?? or it is just misread from hwinfo?
> running prime95, vrm temp reaches 120c.


I haven't tested the boards myself, however prime95 (AVX is off by default FYI) + OC + mainstream (IE not high end OC boards) could be possible. Your best bet is always a thermistor rather than software.


----------



## AlphaC

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *br0da*
> 
> IR shots of the Gigabyte Gaming 7 @ TweakPC
> Temps of up to 95 degrees were measured while overclocking.
> 
> *Edit:* Gigabyte Z370M D3H Review @ coolpc TW forums
> 
> @GBT-MatthewH: Is it Z370 HD3 = Z370 HD3P = Z370XP SLI for the VRMs?


I posted that shot of the Gaming 7 pages and pages ago.










You have to note that it is in Prime95 using 5GHz 1.4V and that a AIO (Be Quiet logo) was used with no apparent airflow over a RGB VRM heatsink.

Should be the same old thing for everything under Ultra Gaming , albeit Ultra Gaming seems to have the Aorus BIOS (maybe some fixes) so that is why people think it is better.

Maybe Gigabyte will do something to improve their lineup and release a Gaming *K5* (this model number hasn't been used) with the Gaming 5's VRM + BCLK and no wifi/3rd M.2 for Ultra Gaming MSRP. _Hint hint ... GBT Matt._
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mabman*
> 
> How is the Z370 MSI gaming M5? I'm looking at either that or the Taichi. Tried to read some of this thread but didn't want to go through all 90 pages hoping to find 1 post regarding it. Also off VRM topic but is Killer lan still plagued with issues?
> 
> Thanks in advance for the help.


Taichi is definitely better (it's a top tier board albeit EK doesn't release blocks for Asrock boards and Bitspower didn't announce anything) but for midrange prices the Asrock K6 or Extreme4 will do about as well. Gigabyte's Gaming 5 is arguably better than the MSI M5 as well if you cool it well. I don't see a great (technical) reason to buy a STRIX-E unless your overclock is relatively tame (sub 200W likely) since it's more expensive than the Asrock midrange boards + GBT Gaming 5 yet it doesn't have the WIMA caps , Debug LED, or the Dual BIOS which are all features helpful for overclocking. The GBT Gaming also has more external USB ports. If you're not using AVX any midrange board : Asrock Z370 K6 / Extreme 4, GBT Gaming 5 , MSI Gaming M5 , Asus Z370-A, STRIX E/F. Asrock's BIOS has been on the money this chipset, with BIOs updates more often (Taichi/K6/Extreme4/Fatal1ty ITX in particular) and less overclocking problem prone than any other vendor post-launch.

There's been some concern with respect to audio on the Asrock boards but I suspect it is due to external factors. In the Asrock forums someone stated they have electrical noise only when they use the rear jack but not when using front panel audio. That seems to me they are introducing some sort of EMI at the rear jacks , since the K6/Extreme4 are not dual ALC1220 boards.

I wouldn't use Killer LAN just because it hasn't been proven to be definitively better than Intel LAN while presenting a whole bunch of issues in Linux and non-Windows OSes.

I think the best way to think of the power delivery on all boards besides the ROG Apex + MSI Godlike is this:
You have a 8 pin power connector. The higher the efficiency the more power you can put through to the CPU , which doesn't guarantee a higher overclock but allows for a higher ceiling. The GBT Gaming 7 has been seen to clock to 5.8GHz on phase change.
The higher the efficiency ,the less you have to cool the VRM as well.
Generally high side mosfets with better transient response (rise/fall , turn on delay) are more efficient.
So if you use the 80 plus efficiency scale for PSUs:
Titanium = 92% at 20% load and 94% for 50% load --- overkill boards using Powerstages attain over 92% (Godlike / Fatal1ty ITX / Gaming 7) and supposedly Infineon Optimos (ROG Formula/Code/Hero boards)
Platinum = 90% at 20% load and 92% for 50% load --- good/great boards such as Asrock Taichi / K6 / Extreme4 using Fairchild dual channel mosfets (with fast rise/fall times) around 92% efficiency , while Sinopower dual channel mosfet drops to around 90% if you go by V_GS=4.5V specs (their spec sheet also uses typical and not max values)
Gold = 87% at 20% load and 90% for 50% load ---- the midrange boards are around 90% efficient at V_GS = 10V gate drive voltage
Silver = 85% at 20% load and 88% for 50% load --- MSI Pro Carbon is around here
Bronze = 82% at 20% load and 85% for 50% load ---- "entry" boards are around 86% --- entry boards using 4 PWM phases , some sort of dual driver to drive 2 mosfets to provide voltage overshoot / shoot through protection , and double the inductors (better alternative to using 4)
80+ --- not advised / do not buy goes here , some boards are actually around 85% efficient when you account for doubled mosfets on low side + high side (as in 2 high side mosfets for high side phase and 2 mosfets for low side phase)

http://www.guru3d.com/articles_pages/asus_prime_z370_a_review,27.html


Z370-A overclock system power draw

ROG Hero confirmation (50A optimos)


https://www.ocaholic.ch/modules/smartsection/item.php?itemid=4117&page=3


----------



## asdkj1740

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *GBT-MatthewH*
> 
> I haven't tested the boards myself, however prime95 (AVX is off by default FYI) + OC + mainstream (IE not high end OC boards) could be possible. Your best bet is always a thermistor rather than software.


any built in over temperature protection for the vrm?
8700k 5g 1.35v, highest llc, on hd3p:
i pressed the start button on prime95 while checking with hwinfo64, the reported vrm temp immediately jumped to 120c, i was freak out and turned off the power supply. the reported cpu package power draw is just ~135w.
135w 120c, seriously?

i hate push pin, i doubt the push pin causing this, i got lower temp on ultra gaming (screws, non push pin). could be bios difference (ultra gaming f5 vs hd3p f4).

is it too much to ask for a better heatsink. why dont let user to buy a good heatsink separately additionally, i dont need thermal sensor cable to check the temp if the temp is not even a concern.


----------



## br0da

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AlphaC*
> 
> I posted that shot of the Gaming 7 pages and pages ago.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You have to note that it is in Prime95 using 5GHz 1.4V and that a AIO (Be Quiet logo) was used with no apparent airflow over a RGB VRM heatsink.


I could have sworn your shots were from a different source so I posted these to have another one.







But never mind!


----------



## MBugaria

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *asdkj1740*
> 
> m5 sucks.
> 
> i cant fully understand z370 taichi vrm, if there are no external doublers but just 12 drivers for 10+2 phases, then how to double them up 5 vcore pwm signals from the vcore controller ISL69138.
> do ISL69138 support doubling function integrated?


+1

From the fact that I realized how it works ...
It's just an increase in power stage components, not really "doubling"
ISL6596 is just a driver "somehow optimized" to manage two mosfets

So we have 5 outputs from PWM
Then 5pcs ISL6596
Then 2x more power components to distibute load

---
I do not quite understand why they should not use the ISL6611A (Double +2 Drivers IC) and make a real doubling?
In the cost they do not seem to be much different from the ISL6596 ...
The ISL69138 PWM controller is capable of this (Up to 2MHz bus interface).
Yes, the board layout is more complicated, but is it really that difficult or unnecessary?


----------



## RustySpoons

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *VRMfreak*
> 
> That case looks sweet.
> Correct me if i am wrong, but i think that ITX boards aren't really meant for 5+GHz overclocks on such a hungry bastard as 8700K. Of course Asus should've used at least the NexFETs, it would be miles better.


No but i'll wring whatever I can out of it in this build, might possibly put a 8600K in there, I've got a 8700K in the Hero X.

This ASRock board seems really good so far, wasn't impressed with the Strix-I, that's pushing its luck on a 8700K with MCE or a mild OC imho.


----------



## ReDXfiRe

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *GBT-MatthewH*
> 
> Yes, they should all be identical VRM's... 4+3 ISL 95866 / ISL 6625A


Any hints on pricing range on both 8600k and 8700k







?


----------



## Brafall

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *NickLe*
> 
> Hey good folks, I've been hovering these threads since I got my cpu: 8700K.
> Finally pulled the trigger with xxxxxxx mb (see if you can see)
> and the Team Dark Pro 3200 cas 14 8GBx2
> Samsung 960 Evo 1TB
> Corsair AX1200i
> Corsair H110i GT
> all Noctua fans @ 500rpm (Sssssilent) (8x NF-A14 PWM)
> The loudest thing on my sys is the psu fan @ 40% fixed duty (700rpm) Yate Loon (oh how I wish I could change the fan to a Noctua)
> MSI Lightning 1080ti
> The Case is a Thermaltake F51 Suppressor
> 
> https://imgur.com/a/7WChe


You have your top fan is an outtake fan? GamersNexus tested a Z370 motherboard and found out that the VRM's get pretty hot. Their suggestion was to make the top fan an intake fan so it can cool the VRM. Might be worth looking into: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0qYHWAnvXv8


----------



## marionet

Hi I just got an Asrock Fatality K6 board and I've been going through this thread... Is there a way on this board to check what type of VRM i have without removing the I/O cover and VRM heatsink? If not is it easy to remove/reattach them?


----------



## MBugaria

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *marionet*
> 
> Hi I just got an Asrock Fatality K6 board and I've been going through this thread... Is there a way on this board to check what type of VRM i have without removing the I/O cover and VRM heatsink? If not is it easy to remove/reattach them?


PWM ISL69138 (5 + 2) will be in any case - it can be seen near the top heatsink.

You need to see which mosfets are used in the memory VRM - they are without the radiator and are located next to the main power connector.
It seems that with a probability of 95% that they will be the same as used in the CPU VRM.

There may be two variants of FDPC5030SG or SM7341EH.
First, it seems like they have a little more efficiency.
But in any case - both are good

---
The above is true for Taichi / Prof. Gaming i7 Motherboard
For Extreme4 / K6 other options are possible and judging by the photo, separate mosfets in memory VRM are used (not dual stack)


----------



## RustySpoons

ITX is built, just gotta order the EK stuff now


----------



## Clausewitz

Could someone please tell me what makes the Taichi better than the K6? From what I understand they have the same power delivery but the K6 has power + reset buttons.


----------



## marionet

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MBugaria*
> 
> PWM ISL69138 (5 + 2) will be in any case - it can be seen near the top heatsink.
> 
> You need to see which mosfets are used in the memory VRM - they are without the radiator and are located next to the main power connector.
> It seems that with a probability of 95% that they will be the same as used in the CPU VRM.
> 
> There may be two variants of FDPC5030SG or SM7341EH.
> First, it seems like they have a little more efficiency.
> But in any case - both are good


I have seen both those mentioned, but I can't see any mosfets with either text anywhere. The ones next to the main power connector read "SM4337 CT55W" (red) and "SM3337 CT545" (yellow). Are these the ones I should be looking at or something else?



These are what I'm looking to find:


----------



## RustySpoons

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *marionet*
> 
> I have seen both those mentioned, but I can't see any mosfets with either text anywhere. The ones next to the main power connector read "SM4337 CT55W" (red) and "SM3337 CT545" (yellow). Are these the ones I should be looking at or something else?
> 
> 
> 
> These are what I'm looking to find:


Yours are Sinopower, the other board has Fairchild.


----------



## MBugaria

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *marionet*
> 
> I have seen both those mentioned, but I can't see any mosfets with either text anywhere. The ones next to the main power connector read "SM4337 CT55W" (red) and "SM3337 CT545" (yellow). Are these the ones I should be looking at or something else?


Sorry my fault.
Apparently, Extreme4 / K6 has a simpler memory VRM, not like on Taichi / Prof. Gaming i7
I just corrected my previous message...

And what is written on the 4 elements to the left of the top red square?

On the middle photo - Sinopower SM7341EH


----------



## marionet

Quote:


> Yours are Sinopower, the other board has Fairchild.


Thanks!
Quote:


> Sorry my fault.
> Apparently, Extreme4 / K6 has a simpler memory VRM, not like on Taichi / Prof. Gaming i7
> I just corrected my previous message...
> 
> And what is written on the 4 elements to the left of the top red square?
> 
> On the middle photo - Sinopower SM7341EH


The 4 smaller ones are: "EC3908 MJ1ME1" (damn hard to see even with good light). Can any conclusions be drawn from this?


----------



## ehume

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *moustang*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *br0da*
> 
> IR shots of the Gigabyte Gaming 7 @ TweakPC
> Temps of up to 95 degrees were measured while overclocking.
> 
> 
> 
> Old news and seems to be a rare incident. I've heard of maybe 4 or 5 people having overheating VRM issues out of the dozens of users that I've talked to. My own Gaming 7 VRM stays in the 56-60C range when overclocked over 5GHZ.
Click to expand...

Very good. A specific board, a specific VRM temp and a specific overclock. +rep!


----------



## AlphaC

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MBugaria*
> 
> Sorry my fault.
> Apparently, Extreme4 / K6 has a simpler memory VRM, not like on Taichi / Prof. Gaming i7
> I just corrected my previous message...
> 
> And what is written on the 4 elements to the left of the top red square?
> 
> On the middle photo - Sinopower SM7341EH


Unless you are going for over 3866 or 4000MHz memory clocks on a kit not rated for that speed (i.e. overclocking memory quite far) it doesn't matter.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Clausewitz*
> 
> Could someone please tell me what makes the Taichi better than the K6? From what I understand they have the same power delivery but the K6 has power + reset buttons.


It's not the same PCB. For example, Taichi has 3rd M.2 , included wifi, USB 3.1 Gen 2 front panel connector, and a BIOS select jumper.

Power delivery wise the VRM has a _slightly_ different layout (Taichi has 12 ISL6596 "596z" drivers at the back i.e. 10+2 while the K6 appears to use 7 isl6596 "596z" dual drivers via 5+2), memory VRM is upgraded , the input capacitors for the VRM area have more capacitance in total (more capacitors used), etc. Components (PWM controller , mosfets, chokes) and output capacitance look largely the same.

For most people it won't matter either since the limitation on the VRM when the heatsink is the same along with the mosfets is largely the efficiency. The Taichi has the additional airflow advantage as a K6 without the plastic cover over the VRM heatsink.


http://www.coolpc.com.tw/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=636940
^ Output Capacitor bank on Sinopower variant of K6 is the same as this Taichi

 about 5,200 uF output capacitance
https://www.hkepc.com/15520/%E7%94%A8%E6%96%99%E8%A6%8F%E6%A0%BC%E5%86%8D%E6%8F%90%E5%8D%87_ASROCK_Fatal1ty_Z370_Gaming_K6
^ K6 Input filtering is 3 x 271uF on the left side and 2 x 271uF on top

Z370 Taichi output capacitance about 5,200 uF

http://www.coolpc.com.tw/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=636940
^ Taichi Input filtering is 4 x 271 uF at the top and another 4 x 271 uF at left side

In short, it really drives home the superiority of the Fairchild variant on the K6 boards for normal loads under 200-250W. The Fairchild part has a much lower switch time (2ns rise and fall , with 10ns max VERSUS 9.6ns rise and 19ns fall time on Sinopower dual channel mosfet) , which matters more if the setup is running in dual driver mode and it's 5 PWM phases since the switching frequency isn't halved in dual driver mode.

edit: the Sinopower variant of the K6 does have a massive Low RDS(on) advantage over the Fairchild variant since it has about half the RDS(on). Compared to other vendors midrange, both are comparatively low RDS(on) at 1.2 milliohms for the Sinopower @ V_GS=10V and 2.4milliohms for the Fairchild. While the MSI boards' Onsemi / Ubiq have 2.6-2.8milliohms RDS(on) and slow switch times, the Onsemi variants from Asus and Gigabyte both have around 4 milliohms of RDS(on) and comparable switch times to the Sinopower dual channel mosfet. The Vishay variant of the Asus midrange has similar switch times to the Sinopower dual channel mosfet.


----------



## Brafall

Also where I live there's only 20 Euro difference between them which the Taichi is well worth.


----------



## Neville0

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *gbates*
> 
> If I remember correctly user Neville0 has this board.


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *catacavaco*
> 
> Let us know about max power, vrm and CPU temps, voltages and memory clocks


Sorry, I didn't get the usual notifications.

I have the the AsRock Fatil1ty ITX/ac board. I run it in an Ncase M1, so I'm limited to SFX psu without pushing on the GPU - so that's a max of 600W for me (specifically SF600). I have a 1080ti (280W max) and 8700k in there, where the 8700k is being cooled by a Corsair h105 on the rad bracket, so I pull air in and blow it on top of the vrm heatsinks.

I oced my 8700k (delidded) to 4.8GHz at 1.275V (in bios) with an AVX offset of 3 (probably can narrow that to 2 or 1) with a LLC level of 3. When testing with Prime95 (non-AVX) I pulled around 140W at 1.168V (VCore due to vdroop) at 4.8GHz at a nice coll 55C. When I ran AVX instructions I was at the same voltage but at 4.5GHz while consuming 150W at the same temperatures.

I could go higher, but I have a limited power budget, and I am mostly limited to voltage, I don't think I'll be wildly be pushing maximum clocks at 1.4-1.45V.

The ram sticks that I have are the TridentZ 3600MHz C15, which work perfectly fine. No issues with the even cas latency.

Since temperature is relative, my ambient is 21C.

I can't comment on the onboard audio, not Thunderbolt 3, as I do not own a Thunderbolt 3 device. What type of thunderbolt 3 devices would realistically make sense, I mostly see storage or external gpu docs.


----------



## Neville0

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RustySpoons*
> 
> Has anyone else got the Asrock Fatal1ty Gaming ITX?
> 
> Not a huge problem but noticed a little bug?, if I change something in the BIOS every reboot (Windows) it will double boot briefly and keep doing so
> every time I restart.
> 
> However if I power it off and back on again it will reboot normally, it's not an issue just a quirk.


I haven't experienced that bug in my Fatil1ty ITX. Though I do recall my Taichi X370 double rebooting all the time, though that may be standard of that board. I only double booted when I failed an oc and went to BSOD because I tried 4.8GHz without enough voltage. I just wasn't giving it enough juice for prime95, though I think Bios 1.20 will help me lower the voltage set in the bios.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *VRMfreak*
> 
> That case looks sweet.
> Correct me if i am wrong, but i think that ITX boards aren't really meant for 5+GHz overclocks on such a hungry bastard as 8700K. Of course Asus should've used at least the NexFETs, it would be miles better.


ITX boards will eventually be limited by something when comparing to a equivalent ATX board in quality, if null and void on any other factor. Honestly I think itx is great as you can more efficiently use the space in the case than most standard atx cases, and if you're smart about it really great thermals can be achieved. There is a level of planning that needs to be done if you're trying to do a properly cooled system, though the realm of itx is not for everyone. Also custom length cables are awesome.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RustySpoons*
> 
> ITX is built, just gotta order the EK stuff now


I find the Shift and Shift X are really meant to be water cooled for the best cooling. I think bitspower makes the monoblocks for the AsRock boards as I think they made the x299 monoblock.


----------



## aliquiswe

How is MSI Z370 Pro Carbon / Pro Carbon AC and ASUS Z370-A Prime vs Z370 Extreme4?

At singles-day there's up to 20% discount. Wonder whatever to order those instead?

They have a 10% higher price on i7 8700K but then again 20% discount so ..

For the Z370-A Prime price would be lower, for the Z370 Carbon Pro AC price would be higher. Could someone name a model number for an M.2 wifi card + antenna which would fit and work in the Extreme4? I don't know what the price value of something such is and I don't know what one should buy for that purpose. It does come with one of those "riser"-looking cards but not the M.2 card and not the antennas to screw in or it doesn't have the small riserlooking thingy either?


----------



## AlphaC

The Chinese article was reuploaded on DIY PC , with STRIX instead of TUF Pro
http://diy.pconline.com.cn/1027/10274129_2.html

1521-1531 Cinebench R15 suggests MCE was used (see http://diy.pconline.com.cn/1025/10253084_all.html)

My guess: Asus probably had them pull the prior review with over 110 degrees C on TUF Pro to put the STRIX-E there (which still performed poorly vs cheaper boards).

It wouldn't surprise me if Asus was using dual driver mode on the smaller doubler chips , as the MSI Pro Carbon supposedly does and achieves lower temps with a mosfet of lower RDS(on).

The reviewer still had a point of contention with the K6 heating the CPU socket because as noted before, the mosfet and inductor area was cooler than CPU socket area.

Sira12+Sira14 on Z370-A again http://neces2.blog.me/221128027957

I have a theory on how to tell which mosfet the Z370-A is using. If you look below the CPU socket area (above the M.2 slot) there is one mosfet that isn't for CPU power delivery. On the STRIX it appears to be the SiRA14.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *aliquiswe*
> 
> How is MSI Z370 Pro Carbon / Pro Carbon AC and ASUS Z370-A Prime vs Z370 Extreme4?
> 
> At singles-day there's up to 20% discount. Wonder whatever to order those instead?
> 
> They have a 10% higher price on i7 8700K but then again 20% discount so ..
> 
> For the Z370-A Prime price would be lower, for the Z370 Carbon Pro AC price would be higher. Could someone name a model number for an M.2 wifi card + antenna which would fit and work in the Extreme4? I don't know what the price value of something such is and I don't know what one should buy for that purpose. It does come with one of those "riser"-looking cards but not the M.2 card and not the antennas to screw in or it doesn't have the small riserlooking thingy either?


The wifi slot is M.2 Key E.

Extreme4 > z370-A Prime ~ z370 Pro Carbon in terms of efficiency

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *QC-Cool*
> 
> Hello all, I have been here in Quebec, where the winter cold is slowly seeping in and in the shadows reading all 93 pages, wow what a great community and so much know how.
> 
> I am finally moving on from my overclocked Q8600 (@3.2ghz/air) from many years ago which gave me a great ride through the years. I am now building an over the top/overkill system for the next 5 to come so that I can throw at it anything that I want, I do gaming, virtualization, 3d rendering, VR and am also a Microsoft engineer perfecting my cloud computing skills, I will also in the coming years start using AI like deep learning programming and such...
> 
> I already have a TT Tower900 case (beautiful with so much room) with dual loops using 2 EK D5/250mm pump/res combo, 2 HWL thin 560 rads with each 4 TT RIING 14s (one rad for cpu/vrm and one for gpu/s and am more going for silent and performance)...I kwow this is way overkill, but hey you only live once ;-) and I want to build a true work of art and a true performance beast.
> 
> I have narrowed it down to an 8700k/delid/binned (from Silicon Lottery), 2 M2 drives and possible 1 or 2 SATA, I do not need wi/fi and am going for one and possibly 2 1080TI (for 3-4 monitor setup). I am now hesitating on motherboard choice, I first wanted the GB Gaming 7 but have since changed idea due to a couple of indications of bad vrm cooling and less efficient UEFI Bios, I also then saw the Maximus X Apex and Formula which I know very good because I already owned many ROG boards, wow I really do love these motherboards. I want to have a stable 24/7 minimum of 5Ghz and maybe even push it to 5.2Ghz or above if possible, mostly with the custom loops/rads that I have.
> 
> So, This is where I need your help, should I choose the Asus Maximus X APEX and add a cool and superb looking aftermarket EK Monoblock or go straight for the Formula when it comes out? I will never do Liquid Nitrogen.
> 
> What do you guys think? please let me know your thoughts, concerns or any other thoughts you guys might have.
> 
> thank you
> QC-Cool


Unless you plan on using a monoblock and delidding, anything midrange and up is fine.

There's an EK monoblock for the Gaming 7, so if memory over 4000MHz isn't a primary concern (i.e. you don't have a kit rated over 4000MHz) then there's not going to be a huge difference between a Formula , a Hero with monoblock, or a Gaming 7 with monoblock.

If you were asking about ROG STRIX boards _then_ I would be concerned.

The Apex is a better board, but for your particular usage case I would think you want expand-ability of RAM to 4 slots for VM (virtual machine) usage.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *aliquiswe*
> 
> Was there a problem with Strix I and E boards? Worse VRM than Extreme4? vs -A Prime? I was Mini-ITX I see but E then?
> It has better sound and comes with wifi over the Extreme4.
> Both M.2 drives seem to be 4x PCI-express on the Extreme4 whereas one on the Strix E and the other just say PCI-express which make me unsure whatever it's 1 or 4. Would it be 4?
> But I'm very far from topic here
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Where was the nice looking image comparing it all?
> 
> Seem like E over F is the wifi dongle and another usb front-side port.
> G vs H and those two vs E and F I have no clue.


For the STRIX-E/F it's more of a max current limit (25A per low side fet x 8 phases _or perhaps 4 phases in dual driver mode with 8 mosfets_) that won't be reached in normal usage. Since the heatsink isn't heatpiped, the heat is mainly concentrated on the left heatsink as well , whereas the K6 doesn't have the issue.

The Strix-I has been proven to throttle at 200W. The mosfet used is package limited to 20A with _continuous_ rating ~ 14A at 25°C (good luck with 25°C ambient/board temp) and it's only 6 phases it's actually far easier to hit the thermal limits.

There has been no image comparing all the boards other than VRM. I've seen a czech site try to compile the data from this thread along with the IO and the other non-VRM stuff. They also criticized that we are looking for the best VRM rather than the cheapest that gets the job done without thermal shutdowns. Their solution to a problem of a cheap board with weak VRM is lowering the overclock to 4.7-4.8GHz.








(http://www.pchrac.cz/vyber-z370-mega-test-a-srovnani-35-zakladnich-desek-pro-intel/)


----------



## QC-Cool

Hello all, I have been here in Quebec, where the winter cold is slowly seeping in and in the shadows reading all 93 pages, wow what a great community and so much know how.

I am finally moving on from my overclocked Q8600 (@3.2ghz/air) from many years ago which gave me a great ride through the years. I am now building an over the top/overkill system for the next 5 to come so that I can twrow at it anything that I want, I do gaming, virtualisation, 3d rendering, VR and am also a Microsoft engineer perfecting my cloud computing skills, I will also in the coming years start using AI like deep learning programming and such...

I already have a TT Tower900 case (beautiful with sio much room) with dual loops using 2 EK D5/250mm pump/res combo, 2 HWL thin 560 rads with each 4 TT RIING 14s (one rad for cpu/vrm and one for gpu/s and am more going for silent and performance)...I kwow this is way overkill, but hey you only live once ;-) and I want to build a true work of art and a true performance beast.

I have narrowed it down to an 8700k/delid/bined (from Silicon Lottery), 2 M2 drives and possible 1 or 2 SATA, I do not need wi/fi and am going for one and possibly 2 1080TI (for 3-4 monitor setup). I am now hesitating on motherboard choice, I first wanted the GB Gaming 7 but have since changed idea due to a couple of indications of bad vrm cooling and less efficient UEFI Bios, I also then saw the Maximus X Apex and Formula which I know very good because I already owned many ROG boards, wow I really do love these motherboards. I want to have a stable 24/7 minimum of 5Ghz and maybe even push it to 5.2Ghz or above if possible, mostly with the custom loops/rads that I have.

So, This is where I need your help, should I choose the Asus Maximus X APEX and add a cool and superb looking aftermarket EK Monoblock or go straight for the Formula when it comes out? I will never do Liquid Nitrogen.

What do you guys think? please let me know your thoughts, concerns or any other thoughts you guys might have.

thank you
QC-Cool


----------



## aliquiswe

Was there a problem with Strix I and E boards? Worse VRM than Extreme4? vs -A Prime? I was Mini-ITX I see but E then?
It has better sound and comes with wifi over the Extreme4.
Both M.2 drives seem to be 4x PCI-express on the Extreme4 whereas one on the Strix E and the other just say PCI-express which make me unsure whatever it's 1 or 4. Would it be 4?
But I'm very far from topic here








Where was the nice looking image comparing it all?

Seem like E over F is the wifi dongle and another usb front-side port.
G vs H and those two vs E and F I have no clue.


----------



## RustySpoons

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Neville0*
> 
> I haven't experienced that bug in my Fatil1ty ITX. Though I do recall my Taichi X370 double rebooting all the time, though that may be standard of that board. I only double booted when I failed an oc and went to BSOD because I tried 4.8GHz without enough voltage. I just wasn't giving it enough juice for prime95, though I think Bios 1.20 will help me lower the voltage set in the bios.
> ITX boards will eventually be limited by something when comparing to a equivalent ATX board in quality, if null and void on any other factor. Honestly I think itx is great as you can more efficiently use the space in the case than most standard atx cases, and if you're smart about it really great thermals can be achieved. There is a level of planning that needs to be done if you're trying to do a properly cooled system, though the realm of itx is not for everyone. Also custom length cables are awesome.
> I find the Shift and Shift X are really meant to be water cooled for the best cooling. I think bitspower makes the monoblocks for the AsRock boards as I think they made the x299 monoblock.


It seems related to XMP, I read others have the same issue. Fortunately it never actually fails to boot, just double boots sometimes.

Yeah I'm getting some watercooling bits, will probably go for flexible pipe work rather than hard line on this.
Thanks for the Bitspower suggestion, I'll check them out


----------



## AlphaC

Siliconlottery stats
Quote:


> As of 11/11/17, 100% of tested 8700Ks were able to hit 4.9GHz or greater. (1.387V Vcore, -2 AVX Offset)
> As of 11/11/17, the top 81% of tested 8700Ks were able to hit 5.0GHz or greater. (1.40V Vcore , -2 AVX Offset)
> As of 11/11/17, the top 58% of tested 8700Ks were able to hit 5.1GHz or greater. (1.412V Vcore , -2 AVX Offset)
> As of 11/11/17, the top 30% of tested 8700Ks were able to hit 5.2GHz or greater. (1.425V Vcore , -2 AVX Offset)
> As of 11/11/17, the top 6% of tested 8700Ks were able to hit 5.3GHz or greater. (1.437V Vcore , -2 AVX Offset)


https://siliconlottery.com/collections/all

http://blog.livedoor.jp/wisteriear/archives/1068332298.html
Maximus X Hero thermals seem to match OC3D's , FLIR ONE thermal camera was used
Delidded chip with Thermal Grizzly Kryonaut paste , 360mm aluminum radiator from Fractal Design

i7-8700k @ 4.3GHz all-core stock , perhaps 4.7 MCE:


i7-8700k @ 5.2GHz (4.8GHz cache) / 1.4V:

CPU temp , delidded


i7-8700k @ 5GHz / 1.3V:


"Since the general all core 4.3GHz has been said that the rated operation of the Core i7 8700K, ASUS ROG MAXIMUS X HERO is 4.7GHz in the standard operation of the (WI-FI AC), but a number that far exceeds it, VRM around temperature of VRM power supply portion is also over a long period of time load in a simple water-cooled CPU cooler environment not exposed to wind has subsided to around 70 degrees on thermography to. The amount to be used in the standard setting the CPU VRM power around even in the Core i7 8700K is likely to be operated without any problem in the passive air-cooling. Followed by the Core i7 8700K will continue to check the temperature of the VRM power supply part in the load test at the time of the OC in the BIOS settings. The Core i7 8700K After a review of our VRM power supply temperature at the time of the OC in all core 5.2GHz in thermography, temperature of around VRM power of ASUS ROG MAXIMUS X HERO (WI- FI AC) is now around 90 degrees. If you want to OC the Core i7 8700K more than 5.0GHz although does not exceed the barely 100-degree mark for recommended use of the spot cooler for cooling the surrounding VRM power. Since the "ASUS ROG MAXIMUS X HERO (WI- FI AC) " to come with a spot cooler expansion kit called "MOS fan bracket kit", this can also be corresponding to 5.2GHz or more of OC do it to assist the cooling of the VRM power That's right. "

P.S. this isn't Prime95 , _For verification method, FF14 benchmark of video (playback time of 8 minutes, WQHD resolution, 60FPS, capacity 4.7GB) gave a encoded using Aviutl + x264 in._

BIOS settings:


Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!


----------



## encrypted11

The stats are an icing on the cake. But The early Kaby Lake and Skylake test methodology (No AVX offset) would probably have been a better choice for filtering purposes. AVX -2 is just setting the bar too low and somewhat overrating a chip in a particular category.

I feel the caseking test methodology will yield better tested chips per frequency category in their acid test. (AVXSupport=0, 1344K in place small FFTs)


----------



## scracy

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *encrypted11*
> 
> The stats are an icing on the cake. But The early Kaby Lake and Skylake test methodology (No AVX offset) would probably have been a better choice for filtering purposes. AVX -2 is just setting the bar too low and somewhat overrating a chip in a particular category.
> 
> I feel the caseking test methodology will yield better tested chips per frequency category.


From my point of view a 5.2Ghz binned CPU with AVX offset of -2 is really only a 5Ghz CPU


----------



## bloot

Aorus Gaming 7 VRM temps are pretty good at 5GHz


----------



## encrypted11

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *scracy*
> 
> From my point of view a 5.2Ghz binned CPU with AVX offset of -2 is really only a 5Ghz CPU


My sentiments exactly.


----------



## AlphaC

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bloot*
> 
> Aorus Gaming 7 VRM temps are pretty good at 5GHz
> 
> http://www.overclock.net/content/type/61/id/3150005/


Smart Powerstages









ROG Hero uses Optimos, which still needs an external driver. It also lacks the Schottky diode (so more diode losses), but may have a "Monolithic integrated Schottky like diode".

Diode forward voltage on the BSG0813NDI & BSG0810NDI (not the one used) is 0.5-0.7V for Q2 (low side) so it's not negligible. In comparison , ISL99227B has 0.09V forward voltage drop for its bootstrap diode.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *http://www.powerelectronics.com/dc-dc-converters/user-configurable-multiphase-converters-can-handle-450a-loads*
> The ISL6617A also features tri-state input and outputs that recognize a high-impedance state, working together with Intersil multiphase PWM controllers and power stages to prevent negative transients on the controlled output voltage when suspending operation. This feature eliminates the need for the Schottky diode utilized in a power system to protect the load from excessive negative output voltage damage.


Did you ditch the STRIX?


----------



## kersk

Thanks for the info guys -- I was originally going with the asus strix z370-i and I just grabbed the asrock fatal1ty itx board instead based on the info here.


----------



## lemniscate

Sorry if this has been discussed before, but how does maximus apex compare against gaming 7? From the first page table it looks like apex and hero use the same 50A optimos, and hero seems to be considered worse than gaming 7 based on some discussions I have seen.


----------



## Clausewitz

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AlphaC*
> 
> Smart Powerstages
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ROG Hero uses Optimos, which still needs an external driver. It also lacks the Schottky diode (so more diode losses), but may have a "Monolithic integrated Schottky like diode".
> 
> Diode forward voltage on the BSG0813NDI & BSG0810NDI (not the one used) is 0.5-0.7V for Q2 (low side) so it's not negligible. In comparison , ISL99227B has 0.09V forward voltage drop for its bootstrap diode.
> Did you ditch the STRIX?


I have several questions, how do you know so much about these VRM components? Do you do a lot of research?

Also, why does Asrock offer so much for so little. I remember in the old days they were considered a budget brand before they left the ASUS umbrella. Do they just have lower profit margins? It seems strange that boards like the Fatal1ty K6 can be so inexpensive.


----------



## asdkj1740

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Clausewitz*
> 
> I have several questions, how do you know so much about these VRM components? Do you do a lot of research?
> 
> Also, why does Asrock offer so much for so little. I remember in the old days they were considered a budget brand before they left the ASUS umbrella. Do they just have lower profit margins? It seems strange that boards like the Fatal1ty K6 can be so inexpensive.


he definitely has done lots of researches, irrespective to different languages, awesome!

btw, asrock audio components are general weaker. asrock z170 and x99 audio components are awesome, however those z270 z370 x299....


----------



## bloot

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AlphaC*
> 
> Smart Powerstages
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ROG Hero uses Optimos, which still needs an external driver. It also lacks the Schottky diode (so more diode losses), but may have a "Monolithic integrated Schottky like diode".
> 
> Diode forward voltage on the BSG0813NDI & BSG0810NDI (not the one used) is 0.5-0.7V for Q2 (low side) so it's not negligible. In comparison , ISL99227B has 0.09V forward voltage drop for its bootstrap diode.
> Did you ditch the STRIX?


Yeah I really didn't like the Strix F board, Gaming 7 is far superior in almost every aspect.


----------



## Brafall

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *asdkj1740*
> 
> he definitely has done lots of researches, irrespective to different languages, awesome!
> 
> btw, asrock audio components are general weaker. asrock z170 and x99 audio components are awesome, however those z270 z370 x299....


Onboard audio sucks on all motherboards. Anyone spending the money to buy a coffeelake + z370 motherboard has likely upgraded their audio from onboard. I'm guessing most people use a DAC/Amplifier for their PC audio needs.


----------



## scracy

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Brafall*
> 
> Onboard audio sucks on all motherboards. Anyone spending the money to buy a coffeelake + z370 motherboard has likely upgraded their audio from onboard. I'm guessing most people use a DAC/Amplifier for their PC audio needs.


Yep on board audio sucks, using Aune T1 Tube USB DAC headphone amplifier and Creative Soundblaster Z for 5.1 speakers, bluetooth on my Edifier Luna Eclipse E25 desktop speakers


----------



## RustySpoons

I think the on-board audio on the Hero X is superb, it really surprised me.


----------



## ehume

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bloot*
> 
> Aorus Gaming 7 VRM temps are pretty good at 5GHz


Specific CPU speed. Specific VRM temps. Thanks. +rep


----------



## RustySpoons

So what I can take from this now is the Gaming 7 has cooler VRM's than the Hero X and requires less voltage for the CPU for higher frequencies?


----------



## AlphaC

Probably not a big deal .

The korean Japanese person put more data up for review

top clocks on 360 AIO


Stock


5.0GHz,1.300V(LLC:Turbo)


5.2GHz / 4.8GHz uncore 1.41V



http://blog.livedoor.jp/wisteriear/archives/1068298475.html

The chokes heat more than the mosfets on the Gaming 7.

Both boards need a monoblock to shine. Gaming 7's VRM heatsink has too much RGB stuff on top instead of fin area, Hero has just some aluminum blocks.

Gaming 7 just hit 6GHz on D.I.C.E.:
http://hwbot.org/submission/3706640_electron_libre_cinebench___r15_core_i7_8700k_1989_cb
http://hwbot.org/submission/3703909_electron_libre_cinebench___r11.5_core_i7_8700k_21.82_points
http://hwbot.org/submission/3705455_electron_libre_gpupi_for_cpu___1b_core_i7_8700k_2min_57sec_716ms

@ RustySpoons
Those thermals are based on no added airflow


----------



## RustySpoons

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AlphaC*
> 
> Probably not a big deal .
> 
> The korean person put more data up for review
> 
> http://blog.livedoor.jp/wisteriear/archives/1068298475.html
> 
> The chokes heat more than the mosfets on the Gaming 7.
> 
> Both boards need a monoblock to shine. Gaming 7's VRM heatsink has too much RGB stuff on top instead of fin area, Hero has just some aluminum blocks.


What concerns me about the Hero X thermals is the heat those capacitors are exposed to, looking at his Flir Images most of the heat is around the capacitor area including the capacitors.


----------



## Leoplate25

Hi, I'm from Argentina. I recently bought a Z370 Aorus Gaming 5 without knowing anything about VRM's and stuff. My friend, from Poland is coming to Argentina next december, and he bought me the i7-8700 (non K version). Am i going to have any problems without doing any OC with VRM temps? Thanks in advance!


----------



## RustySpoons

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Leoplate25*
> 
> Hi, I'm from Argentina. I recently bought a Z370 Aorus Gaming 5 without knowing anything about VRM's and stuff. My friend, from Poland is coming to Argentina next december, and he bought me the i7-8700 (non K version). Am i going to have any problems without doing any OC with VRM temps? Thanks in advance!


No issue with your chip as you cannot OC it.


----------



## Neville0

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Leoplate25*
> 
> Hi, I'm from Argentina. I recently bought a Z370 Aorus Gaming 5 without knowing anything about VRM's and stuff. My friend, from Poland is coming to Argentina next december, and he bought me the i7-8700 (non K version). Am i going to have any problems without doing any OC with VRM temps? Thanks in advance!


Probably not since you're getting a locked 8700, and you cant oc the cpu anyway (without changing the bus speed). I would make sure you atleast have 3000MHz ram, preferably a bit faster.


----------



## Leoplate25

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RustySpoons*
> 
> No issue with your chip as you cannot OC it.


Thanks!!


----------



## Leoplate25

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Neville0*
> 
> Probably not since you're getting a locked 8700, and you cant oc the cpu anyway (without changing the bus speed). I would make sure you atleast have 3000MHz ram, preferably a bit faster.


Thank you for the quick answer!


----------



## Asus11

are ITX out the question now for heavy overclocking?

if so what about the Asus APEX EATX? is it still considered the best clocking board


----------



## aliquiswe

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Clausewitz*
> 
> I have several questions, how do you know so much about these VRM components? Do you do a lot of research?
> 
> Also, why does Asrock offer so much for so little. I remember in the old days they were considered a budget brand before they left the ASUS umbrella. Do they just have lower profit margins? It seems strange that boards like the Fatal1ty K6 can be so inexpensive.


What? They have left it?
I also understood them as budget, but aren't they still? Cheaper. What was that "lan" or D* company called? Anyway I thought they got together with ASUS rather than the other way around, they aren't now?¨

Strix have better sound, for some reason. On the own webpages they call it something a bit different than 1220 and claim it delivers higher dB SNR and it does.
Personally I put some value in the software package. Creating and maintaining one of course use some resources too.
I have no idea how the service of ASRock vs ASUS are too, better service = higher cost?
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Brafall*
> 
> Onboard audio sucks on all motherboards. Anyone spending the money to buy a coffeelake + z370 motherboard has likely upgraded their audio from onboard. I'm guessing most people use a DAC/Amplifier for their PC audio needs.


If I did then it would had made sense to go with cheapest z370 board and i7 8700 instead.
Lots of money saved on cpu, on motherboard, on cooling and the 892 chip would be of no issue.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RustySpoons*
> 
> I think the on-board audio on the Hero X is superb, it really surprised me.


The review which listed dynamics, snr, crossover and thd mentioned how 16 bit cd-audio had much lower dynamic range anyway so at-least for cd-quality audio it seem the onboard would be good enough (of course any amount of extra noise is still more noise but .. the samples isn't that accurate anyway so ..)


----------



## Neville0

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Asus11*
> 
> are ITX out the question now for heavy overclocking?
> 
> if so what about the Asus APEX EATX? is it still considered the best clocking board


Why are you going for itx if your goal is to only overclock to the highest level?

You can get good results with the itx boards (provided you choose a good one).

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *aliquiswe*
> 
> What? They have left it?
> I also understood them as budget, but aren't they still? Cheaper. What was that "lan" or D* company called? Anyway I thought they got together with ASUS rather than the other way around, they aren't now?¨
> 
> Strix have better sound, for some reason. On the own webpages they call it something a bit different than 1220 and claim it delivers higher dB SNR and it does.
> Personally I put some value in the software package. Creating and maintaining one of course use some resources too.
> I have no idea how the service of ASRock vs ASUS are too, better service = higher cost?
> If I did then it would had made sense to go with cheapest z370 board and i7 8700 instead.
> Lots of money saved on cpu, on motherboard, on cooling and the 892 chip would be of no issue.
> The review which listed dynamics, snr, crossover and thd mentioned how 16 bit cd-audio had much lower dynamic range anyway so at-least for cd-quality audio it seem the onboard would be good enough (of course any amount of extra noise is still more noise but .. the samples isn't that accurate anyway so ..)


I prefer a dedicated amp + dac for sound rather than onboard audio. Means I dont have to chase a motherboard that has good audio codec and amplifier every single time I get a new mobo. Schiit Fulla 2 is only $100 and is a decent very budget oriented dac/amp combo.
You also have to deal the board's bios as well.

AsRock actually has a really good support team, they rmaed a Z170M OC Formula, which was discontinued with barley any questions asked. Asus does have the best rgb software that I've used though.

You're paying in a bit for everything, but the more pricier boards should have better components and in-theory better vrm cooling (where are the asus x99 ws vrm cooling solution). If you're just an atx user, the Fatil1ty K6 is the best bang for buck.


----------



## RustySpoons

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *aliquiswe*
> 
> What? They have left it?
> I also understood them as budget, but aren't they still? Cheaper. What was that "lan" or D* company called? Anyway I thought they got together with ASUS rather than the other way around, they aren't now?¨
> 
> Strix have better sound, for some reason. On the own webpages they call it something a bit different than 1220 and claim it delivers higher dB SNR and it does.
> Personally I put some value in the software package. Creating and maintaining one of course use some resources too.
> I have no idea how the service of ASRock vs ASUS are too, better service = higher cost?
> If I did then it would had made sense to go with cheapest z370 board and i7 8700 instead.
> Lots of money saved on cpu, on motherboard, on cooling and the 892 chip would be of no issue.
> The review which listed dynamics, snr, crossover and thd mentioned how 16 bit cd-audio had much lower dynamic range anyway so at-least for cd-quality audio it seem the onboard would be good enough (of course any amount of extra noise is still more noise but .. the samples isn't that accurate anyway so ..)


I've built a number of DAC's and own a few high end offerings, my current DAC is a Chord Qute EX which is highly regarded, I use this on my Naim HiFi and which is plugged in to an ITX based system running Daphile (Squeezebox Server)
I have messed around with this DAC on my main PC as well it's stunning.

On the Main PC i've built a number of BurrBrown based devices and have owned ESS based devices, I've messed around with USB/Optical/Coax and even built I2S based devices.
What I can say and I believe i'm qualified to do so, this Hero X headphone output is the best I've ever heard from a PC, I've run it back to back with some high end DACs and its 99% as good, even the amplification stage is really good too, there is 0 noise or interference from the computer
and drives decent cans with ease. I can honestly say in 26/27 years of messing around with PC's I have never heard an onboard sound this good. It blew me away. I'm not saying its the best by any means but I really cannot fault it.
Although the ES9023 is only on the headphone output the Realtek S1220 Codec for the rear jacks is also surprising, I've only got a set of Acoustic Energy Aego plugged in but I can tell it's far better than anything else I have heard recently, Asus have done well with the implementation.

It works that well for me using headphones I shall not bother using a dac/headphone amp on this PC. I genuinely have never heard an onboard with 0 noise, usually the mouse, cpu activity or disk activity is audible.

One area I take with a pinch of salt is audio reviews, I go by what I hear. It's also subjective.
I know these are benchmarked but there sometimes is a flaw, one of which is some tests rely on the audio being fed back in to the same pc as a loop
one board may have an incredible output but the input is set up a bit hot with gains too high, boosted etc or the input side might not be great. This will skew the results.

Not had chance to play with the Audio on the ASRock Gaming ITX Fatal1ty, I'll give it a go when I get chance and post my findings.


----------



## ehume

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AlphaC*
> 
> Probably not a big deal .
> 
> The korean Japanese person put more data up for review
> 
> top clocks on 360 AIO
> 
> 
> Stock
> 
> 
> 5.0GHz,1.300V(LLC:Turbo)
> 
> 
> 5.2GHz / 4.8GHz uncore 1.41V
> 
> 
> 
> http://blog.livedoor.jp/wisteriear/archives/1068298475.html
> 
> The chokes heat more than the mosfets on the Gaming 7.
> 
> Both boards need a monoblock to shine. Gaming 7's VRM heatsink has too much RGB stuff on top instead of fin area, Hero has just some aluminum blocks.
> 
> Gaming 7 just hit 6GHz on D.I.C.E.:
> http://hwbot.org/submission/3706640_electron_libre_cinebench___r15_core_i7_8700k_1989_cb
> http://hwbot.org/submission/3703909_electron_libre_cinebench___r11.5_core_i7_8700k_21.82_points
> http://hwbot.org/submission/3705455_electron_libre_gpupi_for_cpu___1b_core_i7_8700k_2min_57sec_716ms
> 
> @ RustySpoons
> Those thermals are based on no added airflow


As usual, lots of good stuff here. Now, how about Gaming 7 vs Gaming 5? Do these two MB's use the same VRM's?


----------



## RustySpoons

Just noticed something strange with my ASRock Gaming ITX, with a Non K chip it seems to remove a lot of BIOS settings, granted you can't use them anyway,
but the STRIX-I still shows you every option.

One thing that is rather annoying is they have removed MCE etc on the ASRock Gaming ITX when you put a Non K in there, I'm sure I could use MCE and do some "Tweaks" on the STRIX-I board!

Also out of the fan headers only 1 out of 3 can do DC/Voltage control?, I can't remember how many can do it on the STRIX-I does anyone know?


----------



## tashcz

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Asus11*
> 
> are ITX out the question now for heavy overclocking?
> 
> if so what about the Asus APEX EATX? is it still considered the best clocking board


I'd wait for an Asus ITX ROG board. Also, the EVGA mATX or ITX (not sure what it is) has an extra 4pin for the CPU so it should be good. It also has 8 power phases. Seems like a good board without any bling on it.


----------



## encrypted11

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *tashcz*
> 
> I'd wait for an Asus ITX ROG board. Also, the EVGA mATX or ITX (not sure what it is) has an extra 4pin for the CPU so it should be good. It also has 8 power phases. Seems like a good board without any bling on it.


Asus Raja said "no impact planned for this gen" on rog forum.

No M10I.


----------



## ThomasMW

Quick question:
Asrock Z370 Taichi or Gigabyte Z370 AORUS Gaming 7?

I ordered Z370 Taichi but Gaming 7 is only 20$ more and I am wonderinf if I should cancel Taichi and go for Gaming 7 instead?

In terms of audio, I will use an external DAC/AMP.


----------



## scracy

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ThomasMW*
> 
> Quick question:
> Asrock Z370 Taichi or Gigabyte Z370 AORUS Gaming 7?
> 
> I ordered Z370 Taichi but Gaming 7 is only 20$ more and I am wonderinf if I should cancel Taichi and go for Gaming 7 instead?
> 
> In terms of audio, I will use an external DAC/AMP.


Personally Taichi


----------



## OrweII

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ehume*
> 
> Specific CPU speed. Specific VRM temps. Thanks. +rep


I'm following this thread since the first 3 posts in here. Thanks @AlphaC for going into detail about each motherboard and its VRMs.

I'm happy with my 8700K and Gigabyte Z370 Aorus Gaming 7, getting same VRM temps as *ehume*. I tightened all 4 VRM heatsink screws before testing and placing the board in my case.

At this moment I'm running 8700K at 5 GHz with Vcore at 1.28V and LLC set to Turbo. Awesome board, though I have no idea how to overclock my B-Die 3466MHz CL16 RAM kit. I've tried 3200MHz CL14, CL15, 3866 MHz CL19, 4000 MHz CL19 none of those settings worked for me. X.M.P. 3466 MHz profile works just fine.


----------



## Solarity

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ThomasMW*
> 
> Quick question:
> Asrock Z370 Taichi or Gigabyte Z370 AORUS Gaming 7?
> 
> I ordered Z370 Taichi but Gaming 7 is only 20$ more and I am wonderinf if I should cancel Taichi and go for Gaming 7 instead?
> 
> In terms of audio, I will use an external DAC/AMP.


I ordered the Gaming 7 as it with the discounts + rebates turned + 8600K combo made it cheaper to buy the Gaming 7 and a 8600K for cheaper than a 8700K alone. I can't speak for the Taichi, as I was only looking at Gigabyte and Asus to begin with.


----------



## Solarity

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *OrweII*
> 
> I'm following this thread since the first 3 posts in here. Thanks @AlphaC for going into detail about each motherboard and its VRMs.
> 
> I'm happy with my 8700K and Gigabyte Z370 Aorus Gaming 7, getting same VRM temps as *ehume*. I tightened all 4 VRM heatsink screws before testing and placing the board in my case.
> 
> At this moment I'm running 8700K at 5 GHz with Vcore at 1.28V and LLC set to Turbo. Awesome board, though I have no idea how to overclock my B-Die 3466MHz CL16 RAM kit. I've tried 3200MHz CL14, CL15, 3866 MHz CL19, 4000 MHz CL19 none of those settings worked for me. X.M.P. 3466 MHz profile works just fine.


Is this the Corsair 3466 RGB Vengence RAM, I was looking at it myself. How do you like it?


----------



## OrweII

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Solarity*
> 
> Is this the Corsair 3466 RGB Vengence RAM, I was looking at it myself. How do you like it?


I was thinking about getting those Corsair RGB 3466 MHz but then I found Crucial Ballistix BLE2K8G4D34AEEAK cheaper. As someone mentioned Aorus Gaming 7 has RGB dimm slots and that goes well with non-illuminated RAM sticks.


----------



## ehume

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *OrweII*
> 
> I'm following this thread since the first 3 posts in here. Thanks @AlphaC for going into detail about each motherboard and its VRMs.
> 
> I'm happy with my 8700K and Gigabyte Z370 Aorus Gaming 7, getting same VRM temps as [AlphaC]. *I tightened all 4 VRM heatsink screws before testing and placing the board in my case.*
> 
> At this moment I'm running 8700K at 5 GHz with Vcore at 1.28V and LLC set to Turbo. Awesome board, though I have no idea how to overclock my B-Die 3466MHz CL16 RAM kit. I've tried 3200MHz CL14, CL15, 3866 MHz CL19, 4000 MHz CL19 none of those settings worked for me. X.M.P. 3466 MHz profile works just fine.


[Corrected in brackets]

Thank you, OrweII for telling us the VRM heatsinks can be tightened. This is not the case on my Z87X Gaming 7. Now I am looking forward to i7 8600K availability. Thanks to you and AlphaC I can see that I should stick with the Gaming 7. +rep for passing on the VRM screw trick.


----------



## RustySpoons

If you're doing some serious overclocking I'd go with non-illuminated.


----------



## bloot

I had no need to tighten the vrm heatsink screws on my g7, but will take a look anyway.


----------



## Solarity

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *OrweII*
> 
> I was thinking about getting those Corsair RGB 3466 MHz but then I found Crucial Ballistix BLE2K8G4D34AEEAK cheaper. As someone mentioned Aorus Gaming 7 has RGB dimm slots and that goes well with non-illuminated RAM sticks.


I guess I need to check more places than Newegg. I am curious how they look, you don't really see many good photos of build systems.


----------



## Blinky7

I have my 8600k here since yesterday, and also my samsung B ram.
Had an Asrock Extreme4 on order and today they canceled it due to no stock








Same deal with the Falaity, seems there is no stock currently in my country (at a sensible price anyway).

So, those aside, where do I go for a value board that will let me keep 5ghz AVX and maybe 5.2GHz non-AVX if the CPU allows it?
For RAM I wouldnt care much, but since I got B dies it would be fun to try for 4000 (though my kit is 3200cl14)

I would prefer to stay below 200 euros, so no taichi/giga gaming5 . Is any of the MSIs or the Asus in that range worth it?


----------



## Solarity

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Blinky7*
> 
> I have my 8600k here since yesterday, and also my samsung B ram.
> Had an Asrock Extreme4 on order and today they canceled it due to no stock
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Same deal with the Falaity, seems there is no stock currently in my country (at a sensible price anyway).
> 
> So, those aside, where do I go for a value board that will let me keep 5ghz AVX and maybe 5.2GHz non-AVX if the CPU allows it?
> For RAM I wouldnt care much, but since I got B dies it would be fun to try for 4000 (though my kit is 3200cl14)
> 
> I would prefer to stay below 200 euros, so no taichi/giga gaming5 . Is any of the MSIs or the Asus in that range worth it?


I don't know if you can get the same deals or can buy things off Newegg, but I got the Gigabyte Z370 Gaming 7 + 8600K from Newegg for ($460.97 USD) 394.99 Euro. Granted the deal isn't as good as I got it for right now, though I also get a $20 rebate with it as well. I bought this Saturday night.The price was shockingly slow, if you consider a $300 CPU + $140 (including $20 rebate) = $440 after rebate.

Right now on Newegg it is $50 off on the CPU/Mobo combo + $20 rebate on the mobo.


----------



## Blinky7

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Solarity*
> 
> I don't know if you can get the same deals or can buy things off Newegg, but I got the Gigabyte Z370 Gaming 7 + 8600K from Newegg for ($460.97 USD) 394.99 Euro. Granted the deal isn't as good as I got it for right now, though I also get a $20 rebate with it as well. I bought this Saturday night.The price was shockingly slow, if you consider a $300 CPU + $140 (including $20 rebate) = $440 after rebate.
> 
> Right now on Newegg it is $50 off on the CPU/Mobo combo + $20 rebate on the mobo.


unfortunately this is science fiction for Europe...

Are there any thermal images of Prime-A VRM since it is in my budget?


----------



## Solarity

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *OrweII*
> 
> I was thinking about getting those Corsair RGB 3466 MHz but then I found Crucial Ballistix BLE2K8G4D34AEEAK cheaper. As someone mentioned Aorus Gaming 7 has RGB dimm slots and that goes well with non-illuminated RAM sticks.


Could you take a picture of your system? I am curious how non-RGB dimms look in the back lit RGB slots. Also I don't see those dims in the QVL Supported Memory list on Gigabyte's website:

http://download.gigabyte.us/FileList/Memory/mb_memory_z370-aorus-gaming-7.pdf

By using a DIMM of the list, does that mean you will be able to reach the 3466mhz speed? Granted it is a $20 difference between the Corsair RGB and Crucial non-RGB

Edit: I do see this trident RAM that from what I can tell has the Samsung B-Die, granted it is 3200 @ 14CAS, which makes it slightly faster than 3466 @ 16CAS, if I am doing my math correctly. It isn't RGB, but it is $25 cheaper than the RGB Corsair: https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820232407

The only problem I don't see it on the above list. IMHO I am pretty sure that the list is "tested" working.

I think I will go with the $179 DIMMs, unless someone else has input or a better idea 0_o


----------



## emexci

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RustySpoons*
> 
> Just noticed something strange with my ASRock Gaming ITX, with a Non K chip it seems to remove a lot of BIOS settings, granted you can't use them anyway,
> but the STRIX-I still shows you every option.
> 
> One thing that is rather annoying is they have removed MCE etc on the ASRock Gaming ITX when you put a Non K in there, I'm sure I could use MCE and do some "Tweaks" on the STRIX-I board!
> 
> Also out of the fan headers only 1 out of 3 can do DC/Voltage control?, I can't remember how many can do it on the STRIX-I does anyone know?


Hi,

Z370 Strix-I user here.

It has 3 Fan headers. 1 CPU 2 CASE 3 PUMP. 1 and 2 you can control with fan expert and 3 you can control under Monitor Pump Options.

For I5-8400 i haven't the options like "DDR4 Overclock profiles".

Whatever you tweak you always get 3.8ghz on all cores. If there is not heavy work you may see 4ghz (Benchmarks as sample)

But i can overclock my 3200 c16 ram up to 3866mhz without problems.

My settings:
Mode: Manual
Vcore Manual: 1.040v
Core multipler: Intel default
Asus ench: Disabled
Ram: 3600
Timings: 17-17-37 1.35v
VCCIO: 1.05v
SA: 1.1v

M2 cooler on front side sharing Heat with PCH. That causes high temps both m2 storage and pch.
Overall i'm happy with my build. Strix-I is in my opinion great mb but little expensive.


----------



## RustySpoons

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *emexci*
> 
> Hi,
> 
> Z370 Strix-I user here.
> 
> It has 3 Fan headers. 1 CPU 2 CASE 3 PUMP. 1 and 2 you can control with fan expert and 3 you can control under Monitor Pump Options.
> 
> For I5-8400 i haven't the options like "DDR4 Overclock profiles".
> 
> Whatever you tweak you always get 3.8ghz on all cores. If there is not heavy work you may see 4ghz (Benchmarks as sample)
> 
> But i can overclock my 3200 c16 ram up to 3866mhz without problems.
> 
> My settings:
> Mode: Manual
> Vcore Manual: 1.040v
> Core multipler: Intel default
> Asus ench: Disabled
> Ram: 3600
> Timings: 17-17-37 1.35v
> VCCIO: 1.05v
> SA: 1.1v
> 
> M2 cooler on front side sharing Heat with PCH. That causes high temps both m2 storage and pch.
> Overall i'm happy with my build. Strix-I is in my opinion great mb but little expensive.


I noticed the m.2 heatsink was causing my m.2 to run hotter too lol.

Thanks for the info. How many of those 3 fan header can run DC mode?


----------



## akumouu

I have the same problem, mem overclocking on this board is a nightmare.


----------



## AlphaC

For people complaining about the K6 buzzing or whatever, it's a grounding issue / EMI. Make sure you put in all the screws for the motherboard standoffs, especially near the audio section.
http://forum.asrock.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=6544&PN=2&title=asrock-fatal1ty-z370-gaming-k6-buzzing-audio
----

*Z370-I STRIX*
Z370-I STRIX layout confirmation https://www.profesionalreview.com/2017/11/13/asus-rog-strix-z370-i-gaming-review/

*Z370 Pro4*
Finally a Pro4 review worth reading. Cheapo NIKOs on Asrock Pro4 (PK618BA , package limit = 26A and short rise/fall times of 10-12ns but 5.5 milliohms RDS(on) at V_GS=10V)


145W power draw in Prime95 Small FFTs at 4.6GHz , but it is probably system power , ~ 108W delta in power consumption.
https://akiba-pc.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/mreview/rental/1090233.html

The first review I saw , with way less clear pictures
http://blog.naver.com/PostView.nhn?blogId=hanwoo10303&logNo=221133911888
(can barely make out PK618BA http://blog.naver.com/storyphoto/viewer.jsp?src=http%3A%2F%2Fblogfiles.naver.net%2FMjAxNzExMDVfMTIy%2FMDAxNTA5ODYzOTg4MDc3.CQ3OSu-CRjeX-MyVpOUBdbNIrMa_-8MJihnDkExdnXog.qQh8lucFFxKhCPd9DEeLT_Xp-ROOd8r0oXLBThyahjUg.JPEG.hanwoo10303%2F_MG_8086.JPG)

*Z370 Ultra Gaming*
4C10N + 4c06N confirmation again


Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!






" The limiting factor for overclocking is the quality of the thermal paste and the way IHS is fixed for the chip substrate, and expect temperatures of over 80C with a stronger air and 240mm AiO coolers at a voltage of 1.4V. Processor consumption under load ranged from 100W to 150W depending on the test and the applied voltage.
...
Our specimen i5-8600K was located at 4.9GHz at a voltage of 1.39V. The larger overclock and magic 5GHz was not achievable even with 1.45V despite good regulation voltage by the Gigabyte Z370 Aorus Ultra Gaming. Load Line Calibration had only two settings, Auto or Turbo, and nothing was applicable. But we have to admit that Turbo setup has proven to be efficient and has kept the voltage up to 10mV from the set value. The memory worked in its 3200MHz CL16 standard XMP profile in all tests.

We are used to looking for and fine-tuning Load Line Calibration, but we also like effective ON / OFF options. The processor remained relatively cold with a maximum of 77˚C under load. Cooler Master MasterLiquid Lite 240mm fans were running at 2000RPM, so there is still room, but it would be significantly better at the temperature of the temperature. The voltage section in charge of regulating Vcore voltage has reached 90˚C under load, which is not the best situation, and in the enclosed housing I at higher room temperatures, we advise you to stay below 1.4V Vcore voltage or to provide it with active cooling in the form of a small ventialtora of 60mm or 80mm. "
https://www.pcaxe.com/hardver/maticne-ploce/gigabyte-z370-aorus-ultra-gaming/strana-5

*Z370-F STRIX*
Sira12dp + sira14dp

" The motherboard managed to overclock our specimen to its limit of 4.9GHz, but the biggest problem was voltage regulation, which under load was down to 70mV in relation to the set value in the BIOS. By increasing the level of LLC, it did not bear fruit until the eighth level, when the voltage stabilized as much, but the fluctuation of +/- 25mV was still in relation to the set value.

This lack of finer and more functional regulation of Vdroop resulted in a consumption of nearly 200W, because we were forced to use higher voltages than necessary to compensate Vdroop. Updating the BIOS to version 0417 (the latest at the time of writing this review) did not bring any improvement. The voltage section is more than capable of providing a high-quality electrical current, but it must be addressed to the BIOS."
https://www.pcaxe.com/hardver/maticne-ploce/asus-strix-z370-f/strana-5

*More Gaming 7 thermals*

"We know that "Jedi survival" one of the most criticized is that although the picture is not amazing, but its poor hardware optimization, in order to smooth the operation of the game, you need graphics, processors and other core hardware with high performance .
From our experience, with the luxurious 8 +2 phase power design, rich BIOS adjustment program, Z370 AORUS GAMING 7 motherboard has a strong processor overclocking ability - at 1.25V processor voltage, with TT Floe Riing RGB integrated water-cooled radiator, we can easily Core i7-8700K processor significantly increased from the default 3.7GHz to 4.9GHz frequency constant operation, and by 20 minutes at the same time open the CPU, FPU, CPU cache AIDA64 stress test , The performance is quite steady. Motherboard processor power supply also benefit from the use of high-quality components, the processor overclocked full load for a long time running, the motherboard power supply part of the maximum temperature of 78.3 ℃, the average temperature of about 70 ℃, the heat is not high."


"▲ processor voltage, both greatly increased frequency overclocking full load environment, Z370 AORUS GAMING 7 motherboard power supply circuit heat is not high."
https://weiwenku.net/d/103680932

----
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Leoplate25*
> 
> So, will i be fine with my i7-8700 and my Gigabyte Z370 Aorus Gaming 5? (Talking about VRM temps). Or should i buy the Z370 Gaming 7? Thanks again!


Follow the table , anything low midrange or higher will be fine for a delidded i7-8700K overclocked in gaming (non-AVX). Without a delid, the CPU will throttle around 130-140W which means even entry level boards will be fine.

Anything Z370 will work for a locked chip. I'd buy based on features for a locked chip at 65W.


----------



## Leoplate25

So, will i be fine with my i7-8700 and my Gigabyte Z370 Aorus Gaming 5? (Talking about VRM temps). Or should i buy the Z370 Gaming 7? Thanks again!


----------



## Solarity

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Leoplate25*
> 
> So, will i be fine with my i7-8700 and my Gigabyte Z370 Aorus Gaming 5? (Talking about VRM temps). Or should i buy the Z370 Gaming 7? Thanks again!


This is what the master of electronics and motherboards, AlphaC, responded in my other thread:
Quote:


> SOC FORCE ~ APEX > Gaming 7 ~ ROG Hero > Gaming 5 > STRIX-E/F , Z370-A >>>>> Ultra Gaming / STRIX-H / K3/G3 / TUF


http://www.overclock.net/t/1641832/z370-gigabyte-gaming-7-8600k-for-the-same-price-as-an-8700k#post_26443338

I am thinking that the gaming 7 has better VRM than the gaming 5, I really don't see AlphaC pushing it for any other reason than slightly better VRM.


----------



## AlphaC

Gaming 7 has USB 3.1 gen 2 front panel header and ESS Sabre DAC

The Gaming 5 is typically only $20 cheaper in USA if not the same price

edit: Gaming 7 also has power/reset button


----------



## lemniscate

What makes apex better than gaming 7? It seems like it uses the same 50A Optimos as the hero, based on the first page of this thread.


----------



## Leoplate25

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Solarity*
> 
> This is what the master of electronics and motherboards, AlphaC, responded in my other thread:
> http://www.overclock.net/t/1641832/z370-gigabyte-gaming-7-8600k-for-the-same-price-as-an-8700k#post_26443338
> 
> I am thinking that the gaming 7 has better VRM than the gaming 5, I really don't see AlphaC pushing it for any other reason than slightly better VRM.


Then i should be fine. Gaming 5 is a good board, doesn't it? Also i can't overclock my chip.


----------



## AlphaC

Apex has 8+8 pin CPU input power and 2 DIMMs for memory so it can clock memory to 4500MHz. It's only better on LN2 because of that.

The MSI Godlike has 8+4 pin power but has also been hitting 7 GHz clocks on LN2 ,while packing 12 phases of IR3555 Powerstages which are absolute overkill.

For non-LN2, the Gaming 7 has been shown to clock to 6GHz on DICE (dry ice).

If you look at the table I posted , I put Apex as the same level as the Gaming 7 & MSI Godlike for that reason. LN2 isn't something you can run 24 hours ; the Intersil powerstages are just as efficient if not more efficient than the 50A Optimos (+ driver losses) or IR3555.

* The same VRM setup is on the Hero and validated 5.7GHz on H2O http://hwbot.org/submission/3701948_spider220075_cpu_frequency_core_i7_8700k_5700_mhz

I've seen some validations that aren't for CPU frequency that are 5.5GHz or so on the Fatal1ty K6 and ROG Hero.

edit: also keep in mind the Gaming 7 costs about half of the Apex or MSI Godlike, which are ~$350-500


----------



## Leoplate25

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AlphaC*
> 
> Apex has 8+8 pin CPU input power and 2 DIMMs for memory so it can clock memory to 4500MHz. It's only better on LN2 because of that.
> 
> The MSI Godlike has 8+4 pin power but has also been hitting 7 GHz clocks on LN2 ,while packing 12 phases of IR3555 Powerstages which are absolute overkill.
> 
> For non-LN2, the Gaming 7 has been shown to clock to 6GHz on DICE (dry ice).
> 
> If you look at the table I posted , I put Apex as the same level as the Gaming 7 & MSI Godlike for that reason. LN2 isn't something you can run 24 hours ; the Intersil powerstages are just as efficient if not more efficient than the 50A Optimos (+ driver losses) or IR3555.
> 
> * The same VRM setup is on the Hero and validated 5.7GHz on H2O http://hwbot.org/submission/3701948_spider220075_cpu_frequency_core_i7_8700k_5700_mhz
> 
> I've seen some validations that aren't for CPU frequency that are 5.5GHz or so on the Fatal1ty K6 and ROG Hero.
> 
> edit: also keep in mind the Gaming 7 costs about half of the Apex or MSI Godlike, which are ~$350-500


I have a question for you: Will i be allright with VRM temps with my Gaming 5 from Gigabyte and the i7-8700 (non k)? Thanks and sorry for the intrusion.


----------



## drumsticks

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Leoplate25*
> 
> I have a question for you: Will i be allright with VRM temps with my Gaming 5 from Gigabyte and the i7-8700 (non k)? Thanks and sorry for the intrusion.


If you have a non-K CPU and won't be overclocking, any motherboard will be fine. You won't be drawing enough heat at stock to cause any issues.


----------



## lemniscate

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AlphaC*
> 
> Apex has 8+8 pin CPU input power and 2 DIMMs for memory so it can clock memory to 4500MHz. It's only better on LN2 because of that.
> 
> The MSI Godlike has 8+4 pin power but has also been hitting 7 GHz clocks on LN2 ,while packing 12 phases of IR3555 Powerstages which are absolute overkill.
> 
> For non-LN2, the Gaming 7 has been shown to clock to 6GHz on DICE (dry ice).
> 
> If you look at the table I posted , I put Apex as the same level as the Gaming 7 & MSI Godlike for that reason. LN2 isn't something you can run 24 hours ; the Intersil powerstages are just as efficient if not more efficient than the 50A Optimos (+ driver losses) or IR3555.
> 
> * The same VRM setup is on the Hero and validated 5.7GHz on H2O http://hwbot.org/submission/3701948_spider220075_cpu_frequency_core_i7_8700k_5700_mhz
> 
> I've seen some validations that aren't for CPU frequency that are 5.5GHz or so on the Fatal1ty K6 and ROG Hero.
> 
> edit: also keep in mind the Gaming 7 costs about half of the Apex or MSI Godlike, which are ~$350-500


Thanks for the detailed explanation. Here in Singapore 8700k + apex bundle costs like USD20 more than the bundle with hero (dunno why lol), while gaming 7 is like USD100 less than apex. Since I most likely won't need more than 32gb (or even 16) of ram I guess it comes down to whether the 5gbit ethernet and better look (subjective) of the apex are worth the premium.


----------



## RustySpoons

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AlphaC*
> 
> ----
> 
> *Z370-I STRIX*
> Z370-I STRIX layout confirmation https://www.profesionalreview.com/2017/11/13/asus-rog-strix-z370-i-gaming-review/


Thanks for this.

I'm trying to get my head around something, is there only one report of throttling and heat issues with the VRM on this board? (Member on here) as every review praises it.


----------



## Asus11

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RustySpoons*
> 
> Thanks for this.
> 
> I'm trying to get my head around something, is there only one report of throttling and heat issues with the VRM on this board? (Member on here) as every review praises it.


would be great if EK released a monoblock for this ITX


----------



## RustySpoons

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Asus11*
> 
> would be great if EK released a monoblock for this ITX


They do...


----------



## GotYaNoob

Arent K6 and Extreme 4 basically the same in terms of VRM? I know that the K6 has debug LEDs but in tearms of other features they are very similar..


----------



## Brafall

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *GotYaNoob*
> 
> Arent K6 and Extreme 4 basically the same in terms of VRM? I know that the K6 has debug LEDs but in tearms of other features they are very similar..


Yes they're very similar. Same PCB and for the most part components. The K6 is one step above the Extreme 4 but still in the same tier.


----------



## Asus11

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RustySpoons*
> 
> They do...


it seems your right, they are using the z270i block.. shame no acetal!


----------



## OrweII

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Leoplate25*
> 
> So, will i be fine with my i7-8700 and my Gigabyte Z370 Aorus Gaming 5? (Talking about VRM temps). Or should i buy the Z370 Gaming 7? Thanks again!


You'll be alright. 8700K at stock settings has low power draw. These are measured at stock clocks & Vcore in Prime95 (Z370 Aorus Gaming 7). Edit: it might be Cinebench R15 multi thread bench cause those sensor readings are too low imo.

 
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Solarity*
> 
> Could you take a picture of your system? I am curious how non-RGB dimms look in the back lit RGB slots. Also I don't see those dims in the QVL Supported Memory list on Gigabyte's website:
> 
> http://download.gigabyte.us/FileList/Memory/mb_memory_z370-aorus-gaming-7.pdf
> 
> By using a DIMM of the list, does that mean you will be able to reach the 3466mhz speed? Granted it is a $20 difference between the Corsair RGB and Crucial non-RGB
> 
> Edit: I do see this trident RAM that from what I can tell has the Samsung B-Die, granted it is 3200 @ 14CAS, which makes it slightly faster than 3466 @ 16CAS, if I am doing my math correctly. It isn't RGB, but it is $25 cheaper than the RGB Corsair: https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820232407
> 
> The only problem I don't see it on the above list. IMHO I am pretty sure that the list is "tested" working.
> 
> I think I will go with the $179 DIMMs, unless someone else has input or a better idea 0_o


https://imgur.com/a/cNSEr due to angle you can see two RGB strips between my RAMs, there are 3 in total.

The RAM that I'm using is Crucial Ballistix Elite 2x8GB 3466MHz CL16 BLE2C8G4D34AEEAK B-die (before I made a typo and confused them with similar BLE2K8G4D34AEEAK I think these are made for US market and mine are made for EU market)


----------



## RustySpoons

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Asus11*
> 
> it seems your right, they are using the z270i block.. shame no acetal!


Yeah this just goes to show these Z370 boards are based on the Z270 boards, it's the same with the majority of the EK blocks.
Shame they don't do anything for ASRock, it's a missed opportunity for EK.
Acetal would be lovely


----------



## AlphaC

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Leoplate25*
> 
> I have a question for you: Will i be allright with VRM temps with my Gaming 5 from Gigabyte and the i7-8700 (non k)? Thanks and sorry for the intrusion.


They should be closer to board temp than any overclocked CPU. Probably in the 50 degrees Celsius range or less.

Gaming 5 review
PWM ISL95866 (4+3) powering 8 sets of 4C10N + 4C06N


https://news.xfastest.com/review/42986/gigabyte-z370-aorus-gaming-5/

Another confirmation on Apex

Infineon BSG0812ND on Apex via IR3599 phase doubler with interleave & IR3535 drivers



https://www.infineon.com/dgdl/ir3535.pdf?fileId=5546d462533600a4015355cd6384175a
http://www.irf.com/product-info/datasheets/data/ir3599.pdf

Heatsink has no heatpipe, though it has a few small fins

https://www.overclockers.ua/motherboard/asus-rog-maximus-X-apex/

STRIX Z370-I confirmation on layout
https://www.kitguru.net/components/mike-jennings/asus-rog-strix-z370-i-gaming-motherboard-review/3/

Legitreviews is going for comic relief.
Quote:


> Running through ASUS ROG RealBench at 5GHz 1.30 volts, with just the CPU radiator fan pulling air out of the VRM area, the VRM temperature is absolutely not a concern at 90.5F or 32c.


http://www.legitreviews.com/asus-rog-maximus-x-hero-z370-motherboard-review_199303/10


----------



## RustySpoons

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AlphaC*
> 
> They should be closer to board temp than any overclocked CPU. Probably in the 50 degrees Celsius range or less.
> 
> Gaming 5 review
> PWM ISL95866 (4+3) powering 8 sets of 4C10N + 4C06N
> 
> 
> https://news.xfastest.com/review/42986/gigabyte-z370-aorus-gaming-5/
> 
> Another confirmation on Apex
> 
> Infineon BSG0812ND on Apex via IR3599 phase doubler with interleave & IR3535 drivers
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.infineon.com/dgdl/ir3535.pdf?fileId=5546d462533600a4015355cd6384175a
> http://www.irf.com/product-info/datasheets/data/ir3599.pdf
> 
> Heatsink has no heatpipe, though it has a few small fins
> 
> https://www.overclockers.ua/motherboard/asus-rog-maximus-X-apex/
> 
> STRIX Z370-I confirmation on layout
> https://www.kitguru.net/components/mike-jennings/asus-rog-strix-z370-i-gaming-motherboard-review/3/
> 
> Legitreviews is going for comic relief.
> http://www.legitreviews.com/asus-rog-maximus-x-hero-z370-motherboard-review_199303/10


KG didn't mention anything technical about that board, glossed over the fact it has a poor VRM stage.
Also that m.2 heatsink causes the m.2 and the chipset to run hotter, I can speak from experience...

Not sure what you mean by your reference to Comic Relief? Is something flawed with the test?


----------



## Leoplate25

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *drumsticks*
> 
> If you have a non-K CPU and won't be overclocking, any motherboard will be fine. You won't be drawing enough heat at stock to cause any issues.


Thanks! Which memory modules should i buy? Thanks again!


----------



## Leoplate25

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *OrweII*
> 
> You'll be alright. 8700K at stock settings has low power draw. These are measured at stock clocks & Vcore in Prime95 (Z370 Aorus Gaming 7). Edit: it might be Cinebench R15 multi thread bench cause those sensor readings are too low imo.
> 
> 
> https://imgur.com/a/cNSEr due to angle you can see two RGB strips between my RAMs, there are 3 in total.
> 
> The RAM that I'm using is Crucial Ballistix Elite 2x8GB 3466MHz CL16 BLE2C8G4D34AEEAK B-die (before I made a typo and confused them with similar BLE2K8G4D34AEEAK I think these are made for US market and mine are made for EU market)


Thanks for the images! I am going to have an 8700 (non k). It will be less heat or the same (considering i have a Gaming 5)? Which RAM do you recomend (frequencies and brand)? Thank you!


----------



## Leoplate25

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AlphaC*
> 
> They should be closer to board temp than any overclocked CPU. Probably in the 50 degrees Celsius range or less.
> 
> Thanks, then i should be ok! Which memory modules should i buy? Thanks again!


----------



## badogski29

Hi guys, confused with all the mumble jumble here. So if you are to choose between the hero X and gaming 7, which one? Same price for both.

Its been a while since i built a new computer, so i really don't know what brand to get anymore.


----------



## tashcz

I'm in the same basket. Both are very different. I've done some digging and I'll share it with you.

Aorus has better VRMs and people have stated that sometimes it takes less voltage to deliver the same overclock. Ofcourse, that might not be true since those are software readings. But it really has better VRM overall, and it has a 40mm fan that blows over the VRMs when needed, so for overclocking, it's a beast. It also has better fan control in BIOS or Windows.

Maximus to me looks better, but that's subjective since I like Asus stuff. Also a bunch of people say the audio is amazing. BIOS is mature and if you take a non-K chip you can enable MCE, while on some boards you can't. It also has a better heatsink for the VRMs though, the Aorus heatsink is just covered with too much bling. Also, you get a bracket to mount a 40mm on top of the VRMs.

Personally, I think you should look at reviews of both and choose yourself. Going with either one won't make a difference. Some say with Aorus you get a steam code worth of 40$. Look at all the options boards have and then decide. Overclock wise, I don't think any of them have an issue if you got a decent chip.

I'd take the Maximus though. But I'm an ROG fan. Their hardware never failed on me.


----------



## amd7674

Wow... what a great thread 

I was flip flopping through mobos for the last several days... I think I will go with gaming 7 it is cheaper than Taichi and Maximus where I live.

I'm planning to pair it with 8700k (to try to o/c on air with Noctua D15).

Is this VRM mobo? I've read something about tightening vrm screwes? is that correct?

Also I'm planning to buy 2 x 8gb of RAM... 3200 15Cas? any recommendations?

Thanks


----------



## scracy

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *tashcz*
> 
> I'm in the same basket. Both are very different. I've done some digging and I'll share it with you.
> 
> Aorus has better VRMs and people have stated that sometimes it takes less voltage to deliver the same overclock. Ofcourse, that might not be true since those are software readings. But it really has better VRM overall, and it has a 40mm fan that blows over the VRMs when needed, so for overclocking, it's a beast. It also has better fan control in BIOS or Windows.
> 
> Maximus to me looks better, but that's subjective since I like Asus stuff. Also a bunch of people say the audio is amazing. BIOS is mature and if you take a non-K chip you can enable MCE, while on some boards you can't. It also has a better heatsink for the VRMs though, the Aorus heatsink is just covered with too much bling. Also, you get a bracket to mount a 40mm on top of the VRMs.
> 
> Personally, I think you should look at reviews of both and choose yourself. Going with either one won't make a difference. Some say with Aorus you get a steam code worth of 40$. Look at all the options boards have and then decide. Overclock wise, I don't think any of them have an issue if you got a decent chip.
> 
> *I'd take the Maximus though. But I'm an ROG fan. Their hardware never failed on me*.


Absolutely agree with this statement


----------



## tashcz

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *amd7674*
> 
> Wow... what a great thread
> 
> I was flip flopping through mobos for the last several days... I think I will go with gaming 7 it is cheaper than Taichi and Maximus where I live.
> 
> I'm planning to pair it with 8700k (to try to o/c on air with Noctua D15).
> 
> Is this VRM mobo? I've read something about tightening vrm screwes? is that correct?
> 
> Also I'm planning to buy 2 x 8gb of RAM... 3200 15Cas? any recommendations?
> 
> Thanks


Don't really know what VRM mobo means, but if you're asking if it has good VRM, yeah. That's Asus' top range - though an entry model. You probably won't need to tighten the VRM screws, I've seen people stress testing 5GHz+ and not being able to hit 80C on the VRMs. There's always an option to change the thermal pads under the heatsink or add a 40mm fan with the included bracket, but since you're using a D15 like myself, if the middle fan is positioned at it's lowest point it will also blow over the VRMs.

Edit: Sorry, I've for some reason read that you wanted to go with the Hero instead of Gaming 7.

Yeah, Aorus has amazing VRM. There's no chance you are going to get pass 80C on the board, and the MOSFETs on it are good up to 120C. It's the similar story as with the Hero, most people are reaching up to 80C. If you hit 90C, the 40mm fan will start to blow onto the VRM. It's a 6000RPM fan so it's gonna do a great job at keeping them cool. Don't worry, as said, either board is a good choice.


----------



## pion

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *tashcz*
> 
> Yeah, Aorus has amazing VRM. There's no chance you are going to get pass 80C on the board...


I got 81C with 47x 1.27V (OCCT large)


----------



## amd7674

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *tashcz*
> 
> Don't really know what VRM mobo means, but if you're asking if it has good VRM, yeah. That's Asus' top range - though an entry model. You probably won't need to tighten the VRM screws, I've seen people stress testing 5GHz+ and not being able to hit 80C on the VRMs. There's always an option to change the thermal pads under the heatsink or add a 40mm fan with the included bracket, but since you're using a D15 like myself, if the middle fan is positioned at it's lowest point it will also blow over the VRMs.
> 
> Edit: Sorry, I've for some reason read that you wanted to go with the Hero instead of Gaming 7.
> 
> Yeah, Aorus has amazing VRM. There's no chance you are going to get pass 80C on the board, and the MOSFETs on it are good up to 120C. It's the similar story as with the Hero, most people are reaching up to 80C. If you hit 90C, the 40mm fan will start to blow onto the VRM. It's a 6000RPM fan so it's gonna do a great job at keeping them cool. Don't worry, as said, either board is a good choice.


Since I will be keeping the system for at least 5 years (WAF in full affect LOL), the mere $40 difference is very small...

I see some other folks asking at the end people pick Hero. SInce my GTX1070 is already Asus and the card before (GTX 1060) maybe I should consider Hero.

Are there any issues with latest BIOS? or with LLC (voltage drop) on Hero (I believe Asus mobos were affected by it)...

I just want to buy the best I can afford to have the best chance to get to the 5ghz club









BTW... I'm planning to delidding cpu after some time.

Thanks again


----------



## amd7674

separate question:

Is my current PSU Corsair TX750 (http://www.corsair.com/en-eu/tx750w) about 4-5 years old goo enough to power o/c 8700k with o/c gtx1070 on Hero or Gaming 7 board?

It still works great and powers my current [email protected] wiith gtx 1070. I was thinking about buying EVGA 750w G2 or G3 or Seasonic Focus 850w.

Another option is to wait and see how TX750 will behave with new CPU and mobo...

I just hope my old PSU won't cause 8700k overclocking attempts









Thanks...


----------



## pion

My PC wouldn't boot anything but memtest with my old TX750W.
New Seasonic and everything works fine...

Gaming 7 & 8700k


----------



## amd7674

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *pion*
> 
> My PC wouldn't boot anything but memtest with my old TX750W.
> New Seasonic and everything works fine...
> 
> Gaming 7 & 8700k


So Seasonic Focus 850w?


----------



## pion

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *amd7674*
> 
> So Seasonic Focus 850w?


Seasonic Prime Ultra 850W is what I got (titanium)


----------



## Solarity

@amd7674

PSU: I love my supernova G3 850W, did a lot of research and that was really highly rated. Also going with a higher watt PSU it will be less taxed and more efficient than going with a lower rated one.

Mobo Hero vs Gaming 7: I was in the same boat. I look at both companies as equals in reliability. I have a ROG 27" monitor and was drawn like a fan boy to the Hero, though with all the discounts and rebates the Gaming 7 was a $100 USD cheaper on new at the time. Then AlphaC suggested that they both are on par. Money talks louder than ROG title. I guess you should put down your priorities in a mother board down on paper and see what is the most important to least. Little stupid things might push one board into the winning category. For me the one was price point and value.

Comp: hero vs gaming 7
Network: Wifi vs Dual NICs
RGB: some vs lots (lights can also be turned off)
Name: ROG vs AORUS
Looks: subjective vs subjective
Software: Who has the best stuff you will actually use

In all you will most likely be happy with either. I am replacing my 4.4Ghz OC 3570K on my Gigabyte GA-Z77X-D3H. I have had no issues with the mother board that cost $115. We do over think and want over engineered motherboards. My current one, which is my most stressed system hasn't had any capacitor issues. I will be giving it to my nephew.

I would avoid all matchy matchy, no company gets strait A's across the board. Having a mixed brand system can be matched a visual/color coordinated level, you will get better value and performance from with the best of the best.

In all I went with the Gaming 7, I am spending the $100 I saved toward a NVME.

With all this Mobo research I have been doing, I had a dream last night that MSI announced a "BLING LIKE" motherboard for $5,000. It came with gold solder, diamond encrusted buttons, and I forget the rest...


----------



## ZaknafeinGR

For the people interested in the Gaming 5, here's how it looks like in a case with good airflow (and 2x 1080ti @ 58C mining, although 1 is FE so it dumps the heat outside of the case).
8700K @ 5GHz, 1.285 Vcore (1.32V in BIOS), running a simple cpuZ stress test, VRM tops out at 57 degrees. Only seen it go higher (73 degrees) during p95 29.3 small FFTs - that was at 4.6GHz with 1.32vcore and about ~170-180W power draw for my chip.


----------



## lolhaxz

I'd stay away from the Asus Z370-E Strix board if you plan on doing any overclocking, I just popped a capacitor on it at 1.328v under load - it exploded VERY violently, case side was off and I cannot find the remains... sure heard it bounce around the room.

It was one of the 3 capacitors closest to the backplate/IO.

Knew I should have gone with the Maximus Hero







- I'll take some pictures later when I pull the board out - it still works "fine"... I'm guessing they are the input caps... just not enough of them probably.

Altho now I'm suspicious of the quality of the caps on Asus boards in general... Half the problem is they've taken the Z270 boards and slapped the Z370 chipset in there, added a few more power traces and changed NOTHING else, meanwhile your asking it to deliver 20-25% more current.


----------



## drumsticks

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *amd7674*
> 
> separate question:
> 
> Is my current PSU Corsair TX750 (http://www.corsair.com/en-eu/tx750w) about 4-5 years old goo enough to power o/c 8700k with o/c gtx1070 on Hero or Gaming 7 board?
> 
> It still works great and powers my current [email protected] wiith gtx 1070. I was thinking about buying EVGA 750w G2 or G3 or Seasonic Focus 850w.
> 
> Another option is to wait and see how TX750 will behave with new CPU and mobo...
> 
> I just hope my old PSU won't cause 8700k overclocking attempts
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks...


If the power supply was good and still under warranty, there's no real need to replace it I think. 750W is more than enough to power that build (single CPU + GPU configurations generally won't surpass 400W or so I would think, even overclocked on the CPU. An OC 8700k + OC 1080 Ti could do it, but not a 1070). That said, your PSU is 5 years old and only 80 Plus certified, so it wouldn't hurt to get something new. It looks like the non-gold certified TX PSUs only have a 5 year warranty, so you might be running out of time on that as well.


----------



## RustySpoons

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *lolhaxz*
> 
> I'd stay away from the Asus Z370-E Strix board if you plan on doing any overclocking, I just popped a capacitor on it at 1.328v under load - it exploded VERY violently, case side was off and I cannot find the remains... sure heard it bounce around the room.
> 
> It was one of the 3 capacitors closest to the backplate/IO.
> 
> Knew I should have gone with the Maximus Hero
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> - I'll take some pictures later when I pull the board out - it still works "fine"... I'm guessing they are the input caps... just not enough of them probably.
> 
> Altho now I'm suspicious of the quality of the caps on Asus boards in general... Half the problem is they've taken the Z270 boards and slapped the Z370 chipset in there, added a few more power traces and changed NOTHING else, meanwhile your asking it to deliver 20-25% more current.


I wonder if Asus had put the capacitor in backwards by accident, it can happen.
Not a good sign though!

Yes the Strix-I is just a Z270 board updated for Z370, they didn't factor in those extra 2 cores for power delivery.

I have the Hero X and love it, the real "ROG" stuff is always good, shame they didn't do a ROG ITX


----------



## RustySpoons

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *drumsticks*
> 
> If the power supply was good and still under warranty, there's no real need to replace it I think. 750W is more than enough to power that build (single CPU + GPU configurations generally won't surpass 400W or so I would think, even overclocked on the CPU. An OC 8700k + OC 1080 Ti could do it, but not a 1070). That said, your PSU is 5 years old and only 80 Plus certified, so it wouldn't hurt to get something new. It looks like the non-gold certified TX PSUs only have a 5 year warranty, so you might be running out of time on that as well.


Seasonic Focus Plus 550W Platinum has to be the best value PSU at the moment, I have that in my ITX Z370 build
My ATX Build has a EVGA P2 750w, I got the 750w as it was cheaper than the 650w at the time! if they did a 550w I'd have bought that.


----------



## Solarity

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RustySpoons*
> 
> Seasonic Focus Plus 550W Platinum has to be the best value PSU at the moment, I have that in my ITX Z370 build
> My ATX Build has a EVGA P2 750w, I got the 750w as it was cheaper than the 650w at the time! if they did a 550w I'd have bought that.


Keep in mind price can vary from country to country as well as site to site based on deals: i.e.

EVGA SuperNOVA 850 G3 850W:
Newegg: $141
B&H: $109 or $89 if you do the rebate

Also his power consumption will be based off what all he powers, the 850w is really more than what I need though I got it over the 650/750 as it was on sale at the time for a few bucks cheaper than the lower rated ones.

Lastly take a look at http://www.jonnyguru.com that is where I looked at reviews/benchmarks for buying my power supply.

Both Seasonic Focus and EVGA SuperNovas are rated really well on jonnyguru's site.


----------



## amd7674

Thanks for all the feedback guys...  Much appreciated.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Solarity*
> 
> @amd7674
> 
> PSU: I love my supernova G3 850W, did a lot of research and that was really highly rated. Also going with a higher watt PSU it will be less taxed and more efficient than going with a lower rated one.
> 
> Mobo Hero vs Gaming 7: I was in the same boat. I look at both companies as equals in reliability. I have a ROG 27" monitor and was drawn like a fan boy to the Hero, though with all the discounts and rebates the Gaming 7 was a $100 USD cheaper on new at the time. Then AlphaC suggested that they both are on par. Money talks louder than ROG title. I guess you should put down your priorities in a mother board down on paper and see what is the most important to least. Little stupid things might push one board into the winning category. For me the one was price point and value.


If both boards are excellent, and I don't have a see through case, I will go with cheaper and like you said I will put my money toward m.2 drive or new PSU 
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *drumsticks*
> 
> If the power supply was good and still under warranty, there's no real need to replace it I think. 750W is more than enough to power that build (single CPU + GPU configurations generally won't surpass 400W or so I would think, even overclocked on the CPU. An OC 8700k + OC 1080 Ti could do it, but not a 1070). That said, your PSU is 5 years old and only 80 Plus certified, so it wouldn't hurt to get something new. It looks like the non-gold certified TX PSUs only have a 5 year warranty, so you might be running out of time on that as well.


I got brand new PSU replacement for my original, the fan was failing on it. If I have to guess it is about 3-4 years old. No issues so far with it, So perhaps buying new PSU makes sense, because it could go with 3570k to the new case for my son to replace his i5 laptop used as desktop. The tiny NOISY !!! fan in his laptop drives me crazy LOL... This old 3570k will run circles around his current laptop.... win-win... 

So my option are:
EVGA G3 750w or Seasonic Focus 850w Gold? (same price)

Since I want to fit this into my old HAF 922 with 200mm side fan with Noctua 15 HSF, is it not too much performance hit if I buy CORSAIR Vengeance LPX 16gb 3000 Cas15 / 3200 Cas16? I would need a low profile RAM.

If there is a potential for big performance hit, I could buy pretty much any RAM (with high heat spreaders) however I would lose the side of the case 200mm fan.

Thanks again for your feedback


----------



## Solarity

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *amd7674*
> 
> Thanks for all the feedback guys...  Much appreciated.
> If both boards are excellent, and I don't have a see through case, I will go with cheaper and like you said I will put my money toward m.2 drive or new PSU
> I got brand new PSU replacement for my original, the fan was failing on it. If I have to guess it is about 3-4 years old. No issues so far with it, So perhaps buying new PSU makes sense, because it could go with 3570k to the new case for my son to replace his i5 laptop used as desktop. The tiny NOISY !!! fan in his laptop drives me crazy LOL... This old 3570k will run circles around his current laptop.... win-win...
> 
> So my option are:
> EVGA G3 750w or Seasonic Focus 850w Gold? (same price)
> 
> Since I want to fit this into my old HAF 922 with 200mm side fan with Noctua 15 HSF, is it not too much performance hit if I buy CORSAIR Vengeance LPX 16gb 3000 Cas15 / 3200 Cas16? I would need a low profile RAM.
> 
> If there is a potential for big performance hit, I could buy pretty much any RAM (with high heat spreaders) however I would lose the side of the case 200mm fan.
> 
> Thanks again for your feedback


Wow you are easy







Just don't go to the Watercooling section like I did, you will end up with a new case and a custom loop >< I shouldn't mention that a custom loop can get around headaches of taller ram...I have said to much...

I was initially going to just do a custom loop, new GPU, and monitor. Though my dad and I are both upgrading systems and we are giving both of our old systems to my nephews (his grand sons). So we are building clone machines so I can support him, when he has a 1000 questions as well as use a master image.

The EVGA G3 and the Seasonic Focus are just two good options I am betting there are more. I would check out reviews jonnyguru as sometimes they do find faults that weren't apparent when I checked months ago. Keep in mind that some PSUs like can be longer and pose a problem for some cases or maybe a future case you may not know you want yet ;-)

CAS to Speed calculations I made, before I bought my set:

*3000=.3333ns:*
-15CAS=5ns
-16CAS=5.3328
*3200=.3125ns*:
-14CAS=4.375ns
-15CAS=4.6875
-16CAS=5

(Lower is better)


----------



## RustySpoons

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Solarity*
> 
> Wow you are easy
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just don't go to the Watercooling section like I did, you will end up with a new case and a custom loop >< I shouldn't mention that a custom loop can get around headaches of taller ram...I have said to much...
> 
> I was initially going to just do a custom loop, new GPU, and monitor. Though my dad and I are both upgrading systems and we are giving both of our old systems to my nephews (his grand sons). So we are building clone machines so I can support him, when he has a 1000 questions as well as use a master image.
> 
> The EVGA G3 and the Seasonic Focus are just two good options I am betting there are more. I would check out reviews jonnyguru as sometimes they do find faults that weren't apparent when I checked months ago. Keep in mind that some PSUs like can be longer and pose a problem for some cases or maybe a future case you may not know you want yet ;-)
> 
> CAS to Speed calculations I made, before I bought my set:
> 
> *3000=.3333ns:*
> -15CAS=5ns
> -16CAS=5.3328
> *3200=.3125ns*:
> -14CAS=4.375ns
> -15CAS=4.6875
> -16CAS=5
> 
> (Lower is better)


Mine are 3200MHz CAS 14-14-14-31


----------



## QC-Cool

@AlphaC, again thank you for your infinite wisdom and sorry for the late reply to your answer.

Indeed I am more and more going leaning towards the Gaming 7 as I now see that VRM temps seem ok and only a couple of cases had very high temps. I have let the go of the apex as it only has 2 dimm slots and am still waiting for the formula and see how that goes but I think that the gaming 7 with its 60A Intersils and a monoblock will be very sweet.

I had the chance last saturday night on getting my hands on a Silicon Lottery binned and delidded 8700k (they binned it at 5.3ghz @ 1.437V and a -2 AVX Offset) and I just received it today. As mentioned, I want to go for 64GB of ram thus 4X16GB, I was thinking of going with G.Skill-Trident Z RGB 64GB F4-3200C14Q-64GTZR but unfortunately this ram does not seem to be on the Gaming 7 QVL.

So here are a couple of questions:
1) Silicon Lottery does not have the Gaming 7 in their qvl list only the ROG boards and a couple of other boards, do you think I will be able to run 5.3ghz on lower voltages as tha Gaming 7 seems to overclock on lower voltages from what I am reading. I find that 1.437volts pretty high and pretty close to the the 1.45max?

2) Will having 64 GB of ram hinder my 5.3 overclock goal?

3) Do you think I should stick to Trident RGB Ram (3200 14-14-14-34) or go with non rgb or maybe even change another ram ?, I do not intend to do a great deal of overclocking as I have read that above 3200 there is not much gain.

4) If I do decide to go for the RGB kits, I have read in a couple of forums that people are having issues with Fusion controlling the ram RGB kit. What is your take on this.

again, thank you for your opinions


----------



## Solarity

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *QC-Cool*
> 
> @AlphaC, again thank you for your infinite wisdom and sorry for the late reply to your answer.
> 
> Indeed I am more and more going leaning towards the Gaming 7 as I now see that VRM temps seem ok and only a couple of cases had very high temps. I have let the go of the apex as it only has 2 dimm slots and am still waiting for the formula and see how that goes but I think that the gaming 7 with its 60A Intersils and a monoblock will be very sweet.
> 
> I had the chance last saturday night on getting my hands on a Silicon Lottery binned and delidded 8700k (they binned it at 5.3ghz @ 1.437V and a -2 AVX Offset) and I just received it today. As mentioned, I want to go for 64GB of ram thus 4X16GB, I was thinking of going with G.Skill-Trident Z RGB 64GB F4-3200C14Q-64GTZR but unfortunately this ram does not seem to be on the Gaming 7 QVL.
> 
> So here are a couple of questions:
> 1) Silicon Lottery does not have the Gaming 7 in their qvl list only the ROG boards and a couple of other boards, do you think I will be able to run 5.3ghz on lower voltages as tha Gaming 7 seems to overclock on lower voltages from what I am reading. I find that 1.437volts pretty high and pretty close to the the 1.45max?
> 
> 2) Will having 64 GB of ram hinder my 5.3 overclock goal?
> 
> 3) Do you think I should stick to Trident RGB Ram (3200 14-14-14-34) or go with non rgb or maybe even change another ram ?, I do not intend to do a great deal of overclocking as I have read that above 3200 there is not much gain.
> 
> 4) If I do decide to go for the RGB kits, I have read in a couple of forums that people are having issues with Fusion controlling the ram RGB kit. What is your take on this.
> 
> again, thank you for your opinions


I was leaning on RGB ram, but I got faster 16GB of RAM for $25 less a RGB type. For 64, that could mean a $100 saving for ditching RGB. Also the ram slots are lit up. I got white/black trident ram for that reason.

Lastly my ram didnt show up in Asus's QVC for the gaming 7, but it showed up in the QVC for the gaming 7 on Trident's site.


----------



## HKPolice

Does anyone know what VRMs are on the eVGA z370 FTW & Classified? Not a single review out there......


----------



## AlphaC

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RustySpoons*
> 
> KG didn't mention anything technical about that board, glossed over the fact it has a poor VRM stage.
> Also that m.2 heatsink causes the m.2 and the chipset to run hotter, I can speak from experience...
> 
> Not sure what you mean by your reference to Comic Relief? Is something flawed with the test?


Realbench is non-AVX heavy, they were running merely 1.3V on an overclocking oriented board, and they had a fan over the VRM.

I mean, were they expecting 90°C instead of 90°F?

_Running through ASUS ROG RealBench at 5GHz 1.30 volts, with just the CPU radiator fan pulling air out of the VRM area, the VRM temperature is absolutely not a concern at 90.5F or 32c._

http://techreport.com/review/32836/msi-z370-gaming-pro-carbon-ac-motherboard-reviewed/6
_Still, even after simulating case airflow by positioning our 280-mm radiator right next to the motherboard and resting a 140-mm fan directly on the I/O shield, the Pro Carbon continued to throttle while we attempted to max out our Core i7-8700K with Prime95 at 1.35 V. Lowering the voltage to 1.32 V and running with a -2 AVX offset only extended the period between throttling dips; it didn't take care of the behavior entirely._
Quote:


> To be fair, Prime95 Small FFTs is a synthetic workload that draws much more power than even some of our most demanding CPU benchmarks with AVX instructions. For a sanity check, I fired up the challenging "classroom" benchmark for Blender with our overclocked Core i7-8700K and let it run its course. During that period, even with the CPU set to a maximum of 1.35 V (as some more extreme overclocks might need for all-core AVX stability), the system drew a whopping 85W less than with Prime95 Small FFTs under the same conditions.
> 
> Handbrake, another real-world application that uses AVX, tends to have much greater variance in system power draw, but even its peak power draw runs about 60 W short of that of Prime95 Small FFTs. Even looping the standard Handbrake encode that we use for CPU reviews, I didn't observe any throttling of the type that Prime95 Small FFTs caused.
> 
> Given that performance, the Pro Carbon's VRM heatsinks are probably fine for real-world overclocking. Just don't expect to perform a 24-hour stress test of Prime95 without some kind of active cooling on the socket. Even with the results of our follow-up testing in mind, it would still be nice to see future VRM heatsink designs prioritize function over form from all major motherboard manufacturers, not just MSI.


Gigabyte Z370M D3H

http://www.bodnara.co.kr/bbs/article.html?num=143405

Gigabyte Z370 Gaming 3



ISL 98566 , two sets of 4C10N+4C06N per phase, chokes 0R3
http://playwares.com/pcreview/55788068

Colorful iGame Z370 Vulcan X V20


Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!







Sinopower SM7321


Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!



*Q1* high side
8ns rise time (13ns max)
8ns fall time (14ns max)
R_DS(ON) = 7mΩ (max.) @ V_GS = 10V
R_DS(ON) = 10mΩ (max.) @ V_GS = 4.5V
*Q2 = Low side with Integrated Schottky Diode*
R_DS(ON) = 2.9mΩ (max.) @ V_GS =10V
R_DS(ON) = 3.75mΩ (max.) @ V_GS =4.5V

http://www.sinopowersemi.com/temp/SM7321ESKP_datasheet.pdf

Intersil ISL69137 PWM for core


596z = Intersil ISL6596 dual driver
https://www.intersil.com/content/dam/intersil/documents/isl6/isl6596.pdf


http://playwares.com/pcreview/55744695

Another Asus Z370-E STRIX
Sira14dp+sira12sdp
https://www.ixbt.com/mainboard/asus-rog-strix-z370-e-gaming.html

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *badogski29*
> 
> Hi guys, confused with all the mumble jumble here. So if you are to choose between the hero X and gaming 7, which one? Same price for both.
> 
> Its been a while since i built a new computer, so i really don't know what brand to get anymore.


You would need to delid first, once delidded look at the colored chart to determine the boards appropriate for your CPU cooling.

Maximus X Hero & Gaming 7 are overkill for everyone except people running Prime95 or heavy AVX all day every day. Of course if your case has terrible airflow you'll probably want to use those boards midrange or better.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *QC-Cool*
> 
> @AlphaC, again thank you for your infinite wisdom and sorry for the late reply to your answer.
> 
> Indeed I am more and more going leaning towards the Gaming 7 as I now see that VRM temps seem ok and only a couple of cases had very high temps. I have let the go of the apex as it only has 2 dimm slots and am still waiting for the formula and see how that goes but I think that the gaming 7 with its 60A Intersils and a monoblock will be very sweet.
> 
> I had the chance last saturday night on getting my hands on a Silicon Lottery binned and delidded 8700k (they binned it at 5.3ghz @ 1.437V and a -2 AVX Offset) and I just received it today. As mentioned, I want to go for 64GB of ram thus 4X16GB, I was thinking of going with G.Skill-Trident Z RGB 64GB F4-3200C14Q-64GTZR but unfortunately this ram does not seem to be on the Gaming 7 QVL.
> 
> So here are a couple of questions:
> 1) Silicon Lottery does not have the Gaming 7 in their qvl list only the ROG boards and a couple of other boards, do you think I will be able to run 5.3ghz on lower voltages as tha Gaming 7 seems to overclock on lower voltages from what I am reading. I find that 1.437volts pretty high and pretty close to the the 1.45max?
> 
> 2) Will having 64 GB of ram hinder my 5.3 overclock goal?
> 
> 3) Do you think I should stick to Trident RGB Ram (3200 14-14-14-34) or go with non rgb or maybe even change another ram ?, I do not intend to do a great deal of overclocking as I have read that above 3200 there is not much gain.
> 
> 4) If I do decide to go for the RGB kits, I have read in a couple of forums that people are having issues with Fusion controlling the ram RGB kit. What is your take on this.
> 
> again, thank you for your opinions


I asked Silicon Lottery about it , they said the reason that the Gaming 7 isn't on their list is they haven't tested it.

More RAM at higher clocks may stop you from overclocking your CPU higher since it stresses the integrated memory controller. I'd run the RAM at the recommended 2666MHz and then just step up the clocks to get an idea of how far your CPU can clock without pushing RAM.

I'm not too familiar with the RGB RAM. I don't own RGB RAM. When you are buying RAM for the Intel Coffee Lake CPUs, there's diminishing returns after 2666MHz.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *HKPolice*
> 
> Does anyone know what VRMs are on the eVGA z370 FTW & Classified? Not a single review out there......


Nothing definitive yet. Probably 40A IR IR3553 Powerstages or 35A rated Infineon Dr.MOS 88240
http://www.overclock.net/t/1638955/z370-z390-vrm-discussion-thread/830#post_26436080
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *drumsticks*
> 
> Where would that put them relative to the rest of the list, assuming they're using something at least that good?


Efficiency-wise they'd be around the Asrock Z370 Extreme4 or Taichi level (~90-92%). Current / power-wise it depends on how it's wired (likely 8+3), but it would likely be on par with the Z370 Extreme4 or Gigabyte Gaming 5 as well. Gigabyte Gaming 5's 4C10N high side fet supposedly can do 34A at 80°C when cooled with a heatsink.

I suspect Asus STRIX boards and Z370-A are running dual driver mode similar to the MSI boards with Ubiq. They're still faster switching (i.e. better) than the MSI Ubiq parts running dual driver mode , but Gigabyte's solution with a ISL6625A may have an advantage as shown by the thermal imaging despite using slower mosfets than the Vishay parts on the STRIX boards. MSI Pro Carbon is likely held back by the uPi PWM controller, VRM heatsink and the uPi dual output drivers used.


----------



## drumsticks

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AlphaC*
> 
> Nothing definitive yet. Probably 40A IR IR3553 Powerstages or 35A rated Infineon Dr.MOS 88240
> http://www.overclock.net/t/1638955/z370-z390-vrm-discussion-thread/830#post_26436080


Where would that put them relative to the rest of the list, assuming they're using something at least that good?


----------



## badogski29

This thread is great, im seeing a lot of people from 1155 upgrading. I think I might go asus this time, too bad asrock's extreme 4 board aint as good as it was before.

One more thing, I know ram speed is a big deal nowadays, but is ram speed as important as they are like ryzen for intel?


----------



## scracy

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *badogski29*
> 
> This thread is great, im seeing a lot of people from 1155 upgrading. I think I might go asus this time, too bad asrock's extreme 4 board aint as good as it was before.


Personally I miss the Asrock Extreme series days


----------



## drumsticks

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *badogski29*
> 
> This thread is great, im seeing a lot of people from 1155 upgrading. I think I might go asus this time, too bad asrock's extreme 4 board aint as good as it was before.


From what I can tell, the Extreme 4 is actually very good this time around. I'm pretty sure it's better than the Asus ROG Strix lineup, which is a bit more expensive.


----------



## asdkj1740

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AlphaC*
> 
> I suspect Asus STRIX boards and Z370-A are running dual driver mode similar to the MSI boards with Ubiq. They're still faster switching (i.e. better) than the MSI Ubiq parts running dual driver mode , but Gigabyte's solution with a ISL6625A may have an advantage as shown by the thermal imaging despite using slower mosfets than the Vishay parts on the STRIX boards. MSI Pro Carbon is likely held back by the uPi PWM controller, VRM heatsink and the uPi dual output drivers used.


i have been thinking about the same "dual choke" design happened on asus low end mobos from strix series.
asrock, msi, gigabyte low end mobos have ~4phases only (8 phases faked), and asus mobos are well known to be overpriced judging from its specification compared to other brands mobos at the same price range.

sadly lots of reviews miss the important factor of the driver/doubler ic.


----------



## HKPolice

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AlphaC*
> 
> Realbench is non-AVX heavy, they were running merely 1.3V on an overclocking oriented board, and they had a fan over the VRM.
> 
> I mean, were they expecting 90°C instead of 90°F?
> 
> _Running through ASUS ROG RealBench at 5GHz 1.30 volts, with just the CPU radiator fan pulling air out of the VRM area, the VRM temperature is absolutely not a concern at 90.5F or 32c._
> 
> http://techreport.com/review/32836/msi-z370-gaming-pro-carbon-ac-motherboard-reviewed/6
> _Still, even after simulating case airflow by positioning our 280-mm radiator right next to the motherboard and resting a 140-mm fan directly on the I/O shield, the Pro Carbon continued to throttle while we attempted to max out our Core i7-8700K with Prime95 at 1.35 V. Lowering the voltage to 1.32 V and running with a -2 AVX offset only extended the period between throttling dips; it didn't take care of the behavior entirely._
> 
> Gigabyte Z370M D3H
> 
> http://www.bodnara.co.kr/bbs/article.html?num=143405
> 
> Gigabyte Z370 Gaming 3
> 
> 
> 
> ISL 98566 , two sets of 4C10N+4C06N per phase, chokes 0R3
> http://playwares.com/pcreview/55788068
> 
> Colorful iGame Z370 Vulcan X V20
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sinopower SM7321
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!
> 
> 
> 
> *Q1* high side
> 8ns rise time (13ns max)
> 8ns fall time (14ns max)
> R_DS(ON) = 7mΩ (max.) @ V_GS = 10V
> R_DS(ON) = 10mΩ (max.) @ V_GS = 4.5V
> *Q2 = Low side with Integrated Schottky Diode*
> R_DS(ON) = 2.9mΩ (max.) @ V_GS =10V
> R_DS(ON) = 3.75mΩ (max.) @ V_GS =4.5V
> 
> http://www.sinopowersemi.com/temp/SM7321ESKP_datasheet.pdf
> 
> Intersil ISL69137 PWM for core
> 
> 
> 596z = Intersil ISL6596 dual driver
> https://www.intersil.com/content/dam/intersil/documents/isl6/isl6596.pdf
> 
> 
> http://playwares.com/pcreview/55744695
> 
> Another Asus Z370-E STRIX
> Sira14dp+sira12sdp
> https://www.ixbt.com/mainboard/asus-rog-strix-z370-e-gaming.html
> 
> You would need to delid first, once delidded look at the colored chart to determine the boards appropriate for your CPU cooling.
> 
> Maximus X Hero & Gaming 7 are overkill for everyone except people running Prime95 or heavy AVX all day every day. Of course if your case has terrible airflow you'll probably want to use those boards midrange or better.
> I asked Silicon Lottery about it , they said the reason that the Gaming 7 isn't on their list is they haven't tested it.
> 
> More RAM at higher clocks may stop you from overclocking your CPU higher since it stresses the integrated memory controller. I'd run the RAM at the recommended 2666MHz and then just step up the clocks to get an idea of how far your CPU can clock without pushing RAM.
> 
> I'm not too familiar with the RGB RAM. I don't own RGB RAM. When you are buying RAM for the Intel Coffee Lake CPUs, there's diminishing returns after 2666MHz.
> Nothing definitive yet. Probably 40A IR IR3553 Powerstages or 35A rated Infineon Dr.MOS 88240
> http://www.overclock.net/t/1638955/z370-z390-vrm-discussion-thread/830#post_26436080
> Efficiency-wise they'd be around the Asrock Z370 Extreme4 or Taichi level (~90-92%). Current / power-wise it depends on how it's wired (likely 8+3), but it would likely be on par with the Z370 Extreme4 or Gigabyte Gaming 5 as well. Gigabyte Gaming 5's 4C10N high side fet supposedly can do 34A at 80°C when cooled with a heatsink.
> 
> I suspect Asus STRIX boards and Z370-A are running dual driver mode similar to the MSI boards with Ubiq. They're still faster switching (i.e. better) than the MSI Ubiq parts running dual driver mode , but Gigabyte's solution with a ISL6625A may have an advantage as shown by the thermal imaging despite using slower mosfets than the Vishay parts on the STRIX boards. MSI Pro Carbon is likely held back by the uPi PWM controller, VRM heatsink and the uPi dual output drivers used.


Looks like Infineon DRmos because the IR3553 are more rectangular: https://www.tweaktown.com/image.php?image=imagescdn.tweaktown.com/content/7/4/7428_21_evga-z170-classified-intel-motherboard-review_full.jpg

How do these Infineon DRmosfets compare to the Hero X infineon OptiMOS?


----------



## HKPolice

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *drumsticks*
> 
> From what I can tell, the Extreme 4 is actually very good this time around. I'm pretty sure it's better than the Asus ROG Strix lineup, which is a bit more expensive.


Too bad the VRMs are a lottery between fairchild & sinopower fets.


----------



## amd7674

Thanks for all the help guys !!!









I pulled the trigger and I've ordered:

- 8700k
- gigabyte gaming 7
- gskill ripjaws V ddr4 16gb 3200 14CL
- Seasonic 850w Focus Gold PSU
- Samsung 960 Evo 250gb NVMe
- noctua d15

This will go into my old trusty HAF 922. No more excuses for GTX1070 ;-) This should be good upgrade from [email protected]

I will report back once the system is up and running in a week or two.


----------



## tashcz

Make sure you have clearance in your case. That tall RAM will make your D15 stick out at least 18-19CM.

Edit: just saw you have a HAF. You should be good. As I remember 922 has 200mm fans up front.


----------



## VRMfreak

Guys i need help asap. I said the Gaming Ultra is garbage (indeed) but some smartasses started saying how stupid i am, @AlphaC You have all of the heat data, could you give me some thermal images/graphs that show how awful this board is? Thanks a lot to anyone who responds!


----------



## Solarity

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *VRMfreak*
> 
> Guys i need help asap. I said the Gaming Ultra is garbage (indeed) but some smartasses started saying how stupid i am, @AlphaC You have all of the heat data, could you give me some thermal images/graphs that show how awful this board is? Thanks a lot to anyone who responds!


Try this:
https://www.google.com/search?q=Gaming+Ultra+z370+alphac+siteverclock.net&rlz=1C1CHBF_enUS745US745&source=lnt&tbs=qdr:m&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjz36vLwcPXAhXK7oMKHa6_BYsQpwUIHg&biw=1745&bih=885

I don't know if I would call the Ultra garbage, it comes across as smug. It is like saying "haha" you drive a Kia, I drive a BMW! I think all of AlphaC's comments on the motherboards are in the context of over clocking. AlphaC correct me if I am wrong.

I am trying to build a really good system and I ordered the Gaming 7, though it will most likely be overkill for me, even though I do overclock. You can't always buy the best of everything, no one can afford it. You have to weigh your risks. It is like buying a tool from Harbor Freight it might not be the best quality, but if you don't use it that much it is a much better value than something like snap on. Life is all about analyzing risks and benefits. You will run of money short if you buy the best of the best for everything. Unless there is something inherently wrong with the Ultra, it might be fine for most people who never overclock.

Lastly why worry about someone calling you stupid? I am guessing you are trying to get proof from some stranger on the internet to prove to another stranger on the internet.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Mark Twain*
> Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.


----------



## amd7674

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *tashcz*
> 
> Make sure you have clearance in your case. That tall RAM will make your D15 stick out at least 18-19CM.
> 
> Edit: just saw you have a HAF. You should be good. As I remember 922 has 200mm fans up front.


HAF 922 has ~190mm CPU HSF clearance without side fan mounted. Currently with the same case I'm using Thermalright Silver Arrow IB-E Extreme which is pretty similar in size to D15.
With low profile Samsung dims I was able to use side 200mm (30mm thick) fan. With D15 and new RAM I will have to remove 200mm fan and possible replace it with good quality 120/140 fan instead.


----------



## br0da

Another Z370M D3H Review: http://www.coolpc.com.tw/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=70&t=244388&sid=6429cb5a06fc23bd5eaef9f773272556

Also Stevens Review of the Supermicro: https://www.tweaktown.com/reviews/8419/supermicro-supero-c7z370-cg-motherboard-review/index.html


----------



## AlphaC

I don't see why anyone would say bad things about Extreme4 as far as overclocking.
It's missing the debug LED + heatpipe but it can put out absurd results.

Extreme4 : 5.8GHz on phase change

http://hwbot.org/submission/3707674_majkel84_hwbot_x265_benchmark___4k_core_i7_8700k_14.14_fps
http://hwbot.org/submission/3707759_majkel84_3dmark2001_se_geforce_gtx_1070_129601_marks

Gigabyte Z370N WIFI
(backside mosfets)



http://detail.zol.com.cn/motherboard/index1202556.shtml , http://detail.zol.com.cn/picture_index_1879/index18783451_551_p1202556.shtml
Quote:


> Though the board doesn't feature the same voltage-regulation enhancements present on some ATX offerings, plus no overt cooling for hot-running VRMs, we still managed to get our Core i7-8700K up to an all-core 4.8GHz, matching the overclocked benchmarks we have already run on other Z370 models.


https://hexus.net/tech/reviews/mainboard/112061-gigabyte-z370n-wifi/?page=8

K6


Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!






http://www.clubedohardware.com.br/artigos/placas-mae/placa-m%C3%A3e-asrock-fatal1ty-z370-gaming-k6-r36774/?nbcpage=6

5GHz / 1.35V LINX on Gaming 7 = to 210W package power
http://cafe.naver.com/embestc/332888

power consumption


Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!



The AIDA64 used in our load testing is a stability test that loads the CPU, FPU and Cache simultaneously. Although this set of load stability requirements is lower than the Prime 95, the stability of everyday applications can be guaranteed if this is demonstrated. The heatsink used for the test was the Corsair H115i, specifically the 280mm cooling specification, and the fan strategy is the default, which basically represents the highest level of all-in-one water cooling. The specific test platform is a bare metal test, in fact, good duct cooling chassis with chassis fan test temperature and bare metal test and not much difference.

8700K 1.4V /4.8GHz case, 8700K of the whole power consumption will rise to 220W, the temperature will reach 100 degrees. Temperature and power consumption are significantly higher than 7700K. 8700K due to the characteristics of the process, which eat more voltage, higher voltage can reach a higher frequency, of course, the premise is that you have good enough heat dissipation. In the case of 4.8GHz oven, the power supply heat sink temperature will be as high as 72 degrees, this is the ROG STRIX Z370-F GAMING power supply phase and the larger heat sink case, if it is lower specification Z370 motherboard With smaller power supplies and smaller heatsinks, it is difficult to guarantee the stability of the power supply in overclocking situations. It is still very necessary for overclocking players to choose a higher specification motherboard. But this shows that the processor is capable of stable at 4.8GHz, but the top of the integrated water cooling still can not meet the cooling needs, open lid or split water cooling or promising to get 4.8GHz, or even 5GHz 8700K is promising.


https://www.evolife.cn/computer/104931.html/4

Chinese STRIX-E review


Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!







http://www.sohu.com/a/197132034_99987931

Chinese STRIX-F review


Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!






http://www.sohu.com/a/197291560_283166 (mirror http://wemedia.ifeng.com/32705513/wemedia.shtml)

Way too much derivative content on Chinese sites that copy each other.


----------



## Kertel1991

Hello. I have order a new build system with:

8700k
Gigabyte aorus gaming ultra
Corsair H60
1070ti rog strix
Trident z 3466 cl16
Corsair 750w rmi

I want to ask what my chances to achieve 4.8ghz overclock stable in this motherboard without much heat in vrms. I will only do 1080p 60p gaming like Witcher 3 gta 5 BF 1 Forza horizon 3. I want to keep this pc for many many years so I don't want a dead motherboard after 1 2 years.

Thanks you very much.


----------



## scracy

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Kertel1991*
> 
> Hello. I have order a new build system with:
> 
> 8700k
> Gigabyte aorus gaming ultra
> Corsair H60
> 1070ti rog strix
> Trident z 3466 cl16
> Corsair 750w rmi
> 
> I want to ask what my chances to achieve 4.8ghz overclock stable in this motherboard without much heat in vrms. I will only do 1080p 60p gaming like Witcher 3 gta 5 BF 1 Forza horizon 3. I want to keep this pc for many many years so I don't want a dead motherboard after 1 2 years.
> 
> Thanks you very much.


I don't think you will have an issue getting 4.8Ghz with that board but i would serioualy consider a better cooler than a h60.


----------



## Kertel1991

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *scracy*
> 
> I don't think you will have an issue getting 4.8Ghz with that board but i would serioualy consider a better cooler than a h60.


Thanks you very much for the answer. I have done the order and paid sadly I can't change anything. I just hope to achieve 4.8ghz in all cores with under 1.3 volts for good heats. I thought h60 will be good for just gaming for cooling 8700k and this ghz speed.


----------



## RustySpoons

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *br0da*
> 
> Also Stevens Review of the Supermicro: https://www.tweaktown.com/reviews/8419/supermicro-supero-c7z370-cg-motherboard-review/index.html


Now that Supermicro board is lovely, I've owned a few Supermicro products and they have always delivered imho.


----------



## scracy

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Kertel1991*
> 
> Hello. I build a new system with:
> 
> 8700k
> Gigabyte aorus gaming ultra
> Corsair H60
> Thanks you very much for the answer. I have done the order and paid sadly I can't change anything. I just hope to achieve 4.8ghz in all cores with under 1.3 volts for good heats. I thought h60 will be good for just gaming for cooling 8700k and this ghz speed.


Honestly you would be better off with a good air cooler like a Noctua for example. H60 is one of the worst AIO you could buy.


----------



## amd7674

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *scracy*
> 
> I don't think you will have an issue getting 4.8Ghz with that board but i would serioualy consider a better cooler than a h60.


The worst case scenario you will have an option to delid your CPU to lower the temps to keep your 8700k happy with h60.


----------



## Kertel1991

Thanks you sadly I made very bad choices with motherboard and the cooler. 1900 euro computer and have so bad components.


----------



## amd7674

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Kertel1991*
> 
> Thanks you sadly I made very bad choices with motherboard and the cooler. 1900 euro computer and have so bad components.


I'm sure you will be fine !!!


----------



## scracy

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Kertel1991*
> 
> Thanks you sadly I made very bad choices with motherboard and the cooler. 1900 euro computer and have so bad components.


Depending on your CPU you might get away with H60 but as previously suggested a delid would at least allow the H60 to perform at its best.


----------



## Kertel1991

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *amd7674*
> 
> I'm sure you will be fine !!!


I hope so really. I gathered these money many months and at last I have made bad choices. Nevermind only time will tell. I only want to gaming.


----------



## Kertel1991

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *scracy*
> 
> Depending on your CPU you might get away with H60 but as previously suggested a delid would at least allow the H60 to perform at its best.


I am a newbie to this delid thing but maybe one day will try that in 8700k. I am just concern to hear from you that the h60 can't handle a 4.8ghz overclock in 8700k. I read good reviews can't be so bad right?

At least hope to not have problems with the vrms.


----------



## scracy

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Kertel1991*
> 
> I am a newbie to this delid thing but maybe one day will try that in 8700k. I am just concern to hear from you that the h60 can't handle a 4.8ghz overclock in 8700k. I read good reviews can't be so bad right?
> 
> At least hope to not have problems with the vrms.


I once had a H60 with my 3930K build, to be honest it really struggled to keep up, 8700K will run significantly hotter than my sandy bridge-e did. You might get lucky and get a CPU that requires a low Vcore in which case you might be ok.


----------



## Kertel1991

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *scracy*
> 
> I once had a H60 with my 3930K build, to be honest it really struggled to keep up, 8700K will run significantly hotter than my sandy bridge-e did. You might get lucky and get a CPU that requires a low Vcore in which case you might be ok.


Thanks you in some days I will have my pc I will report back. I am unlucky so in best case i will achieve 4.8 with 1.3v.


----------



## lb_felipe

Is there any reason for me to worry about VRM if I get an i7-8700 (non-K)?

So, can I get an ASUS ROG STRIX Z370-E GAMING (a lot because it's one of the few to have Wi-Fi and USB 3.1 Gen2 front panel connector) without fear?

Do you recommend me another one?


----------



## spddmn24

Ran an hour of realbench with the fujipoly 17 W/mk thermal pads with my gaming 7. VRM's hit a blistering 58c.


----------



## AlphaC

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Kertel1991*
> 
> Hello. I have order a new build system with:
> 
> 8700k
> Gigabyte aorus gaming ultra
> Corsair H60
> 1070ti rog strix
> Trident z 3466 cl16
> Corsair 750w rmi
> 
> I want to ask what my chances to achieve 4.8ghz overclock stable in this motherboard without much heat in vrms. I will only do 1080p 60p gaming like Witcher 3 gta 5 BF 1 Forza horizon 3. I want to keep this pc for many many years so I don't want a dead motherboard after 1 2 years.
> 
> Thanks you very much.


You picked the wrong board (for AVX workloads at least) and the wrong CPU cooler (for all workloads).

The RAM is a bit overkill too since scaling past 3200MHz is poor anyway.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *lb_felipe*
> 
> Is there any reason for me to worry about VRM if I get an i7-8700 (non-K)?
> 
> So, can I get an ASUS ROG STRIX Z370-E GAMING (a lot because it's one of the few to have Wi-Fi and USB 3.1 Gen2 front panel connector) without fear?
> 
> Do you recommend me another one?


Z370 Taichi has wifi + USB 3.1 Gen2 Front panel connector. ROG Maximus X Hero Wifi has that as well.

@ spddmn24 , You were pushing less than 150W through the CPU. Of course the VRM was cold.









*Since people like videos, this might be worth watching*
Stress test was merely AIDA64 , sub 150W


(Fatal1ty Pro - Fairchild variant)



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nwP3udC694U

P.S. I think he was measuring from the front of the board.

Z370 Killer SLi = NIKOs PK618BA as on the Pro4...


https://forum.gamer.com.tw/C.php?bsn=60030&snA=479253

Datasheet http://www.unikc.com.cn/UploadFile/products/2015710171840-PK618BA_REV1.0_20140710.pdf

package limit is 26A

There was a variant reported by hardware.info as SM4337+SM4336...


----------



## tashcz

Okay guys, when are we gonna summerize results for some of the interesting boards and see what does what?

It's kinda hard to read all the info here, so for example I don't know why's Ultra Gaming bad for AVX?


----------



## lb_felipe

@AlphaC, are those two boards you cited not overkill for an i7-8700? Is the VRM so important for a non-K CPU as to the extra pay?


----------



## AlphaC

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *lb_felipe*
> 
> @AlphaC, are those two boards you cited not overkill for an i7-8700? Is the VRM so important for a non-K CPU as to the extra pay?


Z370-E STRIX is usually same price as Taichi.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *tashcz*
> 
> Okay guys, when are we gonna summerize results for some of the interesting boards and see what does what?
> 
> It's kinda hard to read all the info here, so for example I don't know why's Ultra Gaming bad for AVX?


Been updating it semi-regularly on http://www.overclock.net/t/1638955/z370-z390-vrm-discussion-thread/40#post_26381626

Whenever there is anything major that changes (in what we know) I try to update it.

I have a version I didn't upload yet, but nothing major changed on it.


----------



## asdkj1740

gigabyte ultra gaming heatsinks have good surface area but they are just too small entirely to handle 150w~200w or even higher.
even placing a 9cm fan (amd ryzen cpu stock fan at 2800rpm) on top of the vcore part's heatsink, it is still not sufficient enough.
(although the amd stock fan is very weak even at 2800rpm max.)
this board, at least on f5 bios, will be implicitly throttling on 1.4v resulting in lower fps. (1.3v is fine btw)
as for ddr4 oc, again for f5 bios, there are bugs that the performance will stop increasing or even decreasing with tightening timings and higher frequency.

one thing to note, there is no cpu tj max option / vrm temp protection option on bios, and the current limit is locked to 160a on bios.
there are short and long power limit options, but due to the overheat problem, it wont work even you have set them to 300w.
meaning that you cant do much with this board, unless gigabyte tunes the bios.

enjoy the rgb effect, or simply pick the hd3p for better price performance ratio.
if you dont care about aduio/usb3.1/m.2, hd3 may be more better for you. but hd3 is using taiwanese caps, meaning the overheat problem is even more dangerous than hd3p/ultra gaming using japanese caps.


----------



## Kertel1991

I understand then I am ****ed for overclocking with this board. Dame.

So many bad choices. I will try to stay at 4.8ghz with as low voltage I can. After all I will only do gaming at 1080p maybe it can handle 70 100 TDP. The cpu will never reach over 70% in gaming I think. Maybe after 4 5 years.


----------



## scracy

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Kertel1991*
> 
> I understand then I am ****ed for overclocking with this board. Dame.
> 
> So many bad choices. I will try to stay at 4.8ghz with as low voltage I can. After all I will only do gaming at 1080p maybe it can handle 70 100 TDP. The cpu will never reach over 70% in gaming I think. Maybe after 4 5 years.


If the online seller has a return policy maybe you could return the items you bought or exchange for something better?


----------



## Kertel1991

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *scracy*
> 
> If the online seller has a return policy maybe you could return the items you bought or exchange for something better?


I will send them a message but I don't hope for much. I have already paid and now I wait for the pc to arrive. How I could be so stupid? 200 euro for this useless mobo.


----------



## scracy

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Kertel1991*
> 
> I will send them a message but I don't hope for much. I have already paid and now I wait for the pc to arrive. How I could be so stupid? 200 euro for this useless mobo.


Rookie mistake thats all







if you can return some of the items on your list change the board to Asrock Z370 Taichi and change your cooler to the biggest AIO that you can fit in your case, what case are you using?


----------



## Kertel1991

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *scracy*
> 
> Rookie mistake thats all
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> if you can return some of the items on your list change the board to Asrock Z370 Taichi and change your cooler to the biggest AIO that you can fit in your case, what case are you using?


A stupid mistake to correct you. I have put the s340 elite white case.


----------



## asdkj1740

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Kertel1991*
> 
> A stupid mistake to correct you. I have put the s340 elite white case.


poor cooling case.


----------



## scracy

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Kertel1991*
> 
> A stupid mistake to correct you. I have put the s340 elite white case.


Being a bit hard on yourself there







cooling I would go with a NZXT Kraken X62 as that will fit your case and give you plenty of cooling for what you want to achieve, combine that with Asrock Z370 Taichi and I think you would have an excellent relatively budget P.C that should last you quite a while







the other components you selected are pretty good given your budget and what you want to achieve.


----------



## Kertel1991

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *scracy*
> 
> Being a bit hard on yourself there
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cooling I would go with a NZXT Kraken X62 as that will fit your case and give you plenty of cooling for what you want to achieve, combine that with Asrock Z370 Taichi and I think you would have an excellent relatively budget P.C that should last you quite a while
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> the other components you selected are pretty good given your budget and what you want to achieve.


I have paid 1893 euro. I can't paid more. I ask them to put these:

https://www.msystems.gr/index.php?category=1317&product=23390

https://www.msystems.gr/index.php?category=1401&product=22479

And remove the aorus ultra gaming and the h60. I 4 5 hours they will answer me. The asus has 10 euro less than aorus and the coolermaster 10 euro more than h60. Hope they can fit in the money that I paid.


----------



## Kertel1991

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *asdkj1740*
> 
> poor cooling case.


I like this case I was between this and phanteks p400s. Here where I live everything are very very expensive. I paid 579 euro for the rog strix 1070ti and the 1080ti has 800. The kraken x62 has 165 euro.


----------



## scracy

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Kertel1991*
> 
> I have paid 1893 euro. I can't paid more. I ask them to put these:
> 
> https://www.msystems.gr/index.php?category=1317&product=23390
> 
> https://www.msystems.gr/index.php?category=1401&product=22479
> 
> And remove the aorus ultra gaming and the h60. I 4 5 hours they will answer me. The asus has 10 euro less than aorus and the coolermaster 10 euro more than h60. Hope they can fit in the money that I paid.


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Kertel1991*
> 
> I like this case I was between this and phanteks p400s. Here where I live everything are very very expensive. I paid 579 euro for the rog strix 1070ti and the 1080ti has 800. The kraken x62 has 165 euro.


Australia is expensive too, I would have bought the Phanteks P400s personally, very good case for the money and easy to build in. My suggestion would be keep the cooler you have on order if budget is a concern and put a few extra dollars into the Taichi board as opposed to the Asus one you selected,when you can afford it upgrade the cooler


----------



## Kertel1991

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *scracy*
> 
> Australia is expensive too, I would have bought the Phanteks P400s personally, very good case for the money and easy to build in. My suggestion would be keep the cooler you have on order if budget is a concern and put a few extra dollars into the Taichi board as opposed to the Asus one you selected,when you can afford it upgrade the cooler


I can't afford the 255euro taichi sadly. The asus are way better than aorus gaming ultra and will be fine because I will just gaming I am not supposed to overclock more than 4.8ghz.


----------



## scracy

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Kertel1991*
> 
> I can't afford the 255euro taichi sadly. The asus are way better than aorus gaming ultra and will be fine because I will just gaming I am not supposed to overclock more than 4.8ghz.


Wow thats expensive in my country there is only a $50 difference between Taichi and Asus board, fair enough.


----------



## WexleySnoops

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *asdkj1740*
> 
> poor cooling case.


How about offering advice as opposed to just ****posting?

The S340 is not that bad. Sure, it's not amazing, but it isn't the worst.

My personal favourite is the Meshify C, but it isn't the best if you're using an AIO, and the looks don't appeal to everyone.


----------



## Kertel1991

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *scracy*
> 
> Wow thats expensive in my country there is only a $50 difference between Taichi and Asus board, fair enough.


Everything is expensive here. 240 Euro for 16gb ram 410 for the 8700k and 580 for 1070ti.


----------



## scracy

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *WexleySnoops*
> 
> How about offering advice as opposed to just ****posting?
> 
> The S340 is not that bad. Sure, it's not amazing, but it isn't the worst.
> 
> My personal favourite is the Meshify C, but it isn't the best if you're using an AIO, and the looks don't appeal to everyone.


Its funny the perception people have







Phanteks Evolve ATX has a reputation for poor airflow yet with my own testing in a custom loop set up the difference in CPU temps under load with all covers removed is 3 degrees C lower with same ambient temp


----------



## WexleySnoops

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *scracy*
> 
> Its funny the perception people have
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Phanteks Evolve ATX has a reputation for poor airflow yet with my own testing in a custom loop set up the difference in CPU temps under load with all covers removed is 3 degrees C lower with same ambient temp


Yea! Just goes to show that you can't always believe what you read


----------



## scracy

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *WexleySnoops*
> 
> Yea! Just goes to show that you can't always believe what you read


True but then every cooling setup is different, air flow may effect an air cooled system more for example







anyway off topic lol


----------



## Flylord

Gigabye gaming 5, MSI Pro Carbon, or Asus Strix-F? All same price with an 8600k, what would you pick?


----------



## Yetyhunter

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nwP3udC694U A comparison between these exact boards + the asrock.


----------



## UnknownSoldier

Just wanted to stop by and thank everyone for the discussions in this thread. Spent a few weeks researching mobos, vrms, and overclocking potential. I had settled on the Maximus X Hero until AlphaC turned me into the fact that the Gaming 7 was on-par with the Hero. Was back and forth between the two for the past week, but I just nabbed the Gaming 7 for $135 less than the Hero, so I've made my choice









My next adventure is working up the nerve to delid my 8700k so I can push the cpu and mobo to their limits.


----------



## Kertel1991

Good news guys. I just changed the motherboard to a gigabyte aorus gaming 5 with 47.5 more euro. The supplier hasn't the taichi so I stick to the gaming 5. I think I will love this motherboard. I love the rgb lighting it has wifi/BT that I definitely will use and good vrms for OC my 8700k to 4.8 for just gaming.

Last night I was sad now I am happy. Also I think to make the h60 push pull with an additional fan so I am OK with that too.
Also the case was the simple s340 but the s340 elite with full tempered glass with plenty of space. It will be an amazing setup with my rgb motospeed v30 and the mechanical keyboard. Thanks you for put me in the right directions. Also 3 years warranty and 20 euro to steam wallet.


----------



## RustySpoons

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Flylord*
> 
> Gigabye gaming 5, MSI Pro Carbon, or Asus Strix-F? All same price with an 8600k, what would you pick?


Something from ASRock...


----------



## Kertel1991

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RustySpoons*
> 
> Something from ASRock...


Maybe asrock have the best vrms but(always there is a but) have the baddest bios that I have seen. A friend has the Z370 K6 and use it with the version 1 bios. The 1.10 and 1.20 doesn't even boot his pc it stuck at post. Also 2 year warranty. Always there is a trade of always noone give Rich features for free.


----------



## RustySpoons

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Kertel1991*
> 
> Maybe asrock have the best vrms but(always there is a but) have the baddest bios that I have seen. A friend has the Z370 K6 and use it with the version 1 bios. The 1.10 and 1.20 doesn't even boot his pc it stuck at post. Also 2 year warranty. Always there is a trade of always noone give Rich features for free.


I've always found ASRock to be solid boards, they do the job well and aren't too flashy.


----------



## scracy

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RustySpoons*
> 
> I've always found ASRock to be solid boards, they do the job well and aren't too flashy.


Same here and a much better UEFI than Gigabyte at least in the past.


----------



## Kertel1991

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RustySpoons*
> 
> I've always found ASRock to be solid boards, they do the job well and aren't too flashy.


Most Z370 boards are pretty solid except the vrms. You pay for better vrms. I don't like the 2 years warranty in asrock products and the bios.


----------



## Flylord

I would just get extreme 4 but it's not available here. That's why I listed those 3.


----------



## RustySpoons

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Kertel1991*
> 
> Most Z370 boards are pretty solid except the vrms. You pay for better vrms. I don't like the 2 years warranty in asrock products and the bios.


ASRock bios is better than Gigabyte and MSI.


----------



## AlphaC

Z370 Pro4 : SM4337+ SM4336 variant





http://playwares.com/pcreview/55804025#

(It's not recommendable due to the top VRM section unheatsinked , as well as slower BIOS updates than anything from Extreme4 upwards.)

R50 chokes are used.

Also people paying attention will notice the 5K hour rated capacitors at the output side are rated for 3V. You will notice that MSI + Gigabyte boards use output capacitors rated for 6.3V even on their low end (i.e. Z370 HD3P or Z370 A PRO) so the higher output capacitance on the Asrock board was likely out of necessity. The STRIX boards also use 6.3V rated output capacitors.

Youtube review with power draw in CB R15 on Z370 Pro4


Spoiler: 4.7GHz,130W









Spoiler: 5GHz, 138W








https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9lD4Yp1TNhQ

5.1GHz unbootable

* Compare to Extreme4 , 5GHz from another youtuber (143W CB R15)


Spoiler: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mStzgl1w69Y







5Ghz Prime95 26.6 (non-AVX) @ 1.264V ~ 170W


Spoiler: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-NEPf4v7Sc4







5GHz AIDA64 ~ 130W (GB Aorus Z370 Gaming 5)


Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s76LdhxUz1M




4.7GHz (MCE) Maximus X Hero ~130W


Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUn-JHbt_Ug



195W on Extreme4 , rendering with 5GHz 1.4V


Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=842vh0u-fTk




Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Kertel1991*
> 
> Maybe asrock have the best vrms but(always there is a but) have the baddest bios that I have seen. A friend has the Z370 K6 and use it with the version 1 bios. The 1.10 and 1.20 doesn't even boot his pc it stuck at post. Also 2 year warranty. Always
> there is a trade of always noone give Rich features for free.


Sounds like a corrupt BIOS. There's a dual BIOS on the board so be sure to make use of it.

Taichi with Sinopower


https://hk.xfastest.com/3693/xf-open-box-asrock-z370-taichi-motherboard-review/

TUF PRO Gaming seems to use Sira12dp low side fet


Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!






http://www.vmodtech.com/th/article/asus-tuf-z370-pro-gaming-review/page/2

Maximus X Hero has full review up on ocaholic now

https://www.ocaholic.ch/modules/smartsection/item.php?itemid=4120&page=3


----------



## br0da

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AlphaC*
> 
> Z370 Pro4 : SM4337+ SM4336 variant
> [...]


So we can either get those NIKOs (PK618BA + PZ0903BK) or Sinopowers (SM4337 + SM4336)?
Layout seems to me like 8+2+1, power phases for VCC fake-doubled with one hs and one ls MOSFET and for VCCGT two native phases with one hs and two ls FETs each. Or would you interpret it different?


----------



## weitz1991

Why are there two extreme 4 boards in the charts? Sorry if I missed something.


----------



## aliquiswe

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *weitz1991*
> 
> Why are there two extreme 4 boards in the charts? Sorry if I missed something.


It come with two variants of the VRM.


----------



## AlphaC

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *br0da*
> 
> So we can either get those NIKOs (PK618BA + PZ0903BK) or Sinopowers (SM4337 + SM4336)?
> Layout seems to me like 8+2+1, power phases for VCC fake-doubled with one hs and one ls MOSFET and for VCCGT two native phases with one hs and two ls FETs each. Or would you interpret it different?


For Pro4 :

I'd use your judgement on that one. The VRM is uninteresting enough that it wouldn't matter that much. We have power draw figures suggesting it does shut down after about 130W.

It might even be like AM4 where MSI tacked on extra phases instead of "fake doubling" it. I see 3 small roughly 2x2mm ICs but the pictures of the back don't have anything like that so unless the person on Asrock forum was right about it being 6 phases (unlikely) then it should be fine.

The mosfets you mentioned are correct though. For some reason the top side of the board for Pro4 has them wired oddly. Usually high side is closer to input capacitor and low side closer to the output (inductor side).

The one on Playwares is definitely SM4337+SM4336 , the pictures are clear.

edit: also the Pro4 has a cut down I/O (no USB 3.1 gen 2) and ALC892 with 3 audio output jacks. It shouldn't be on anyone's buying list unless they are going for a bargain bin build (which at the time isn't practical since Coffee Lake is not even down to MSRP yet).

edit2: seems the older Fatal1ty H270 Performance used ISL95856 PWM with NIKO-SEM PK618BA + PZ0903BK

Zooming in on the Z370-P it looks as though it is 2x Sira12dp + Sira14dp.


https://motherboarddb.com/motherboards/426/
https://www.ple.com.au/Products/629466/ASUS-PRIME-Z370-P-LGA1151-CL-ATX-Desktop-Motherboard


https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1364722-REG/asus_prime_z370_p_lga_1151.html

Z370-H STRIX seems to have 4c09 for memory phases , but still no idea on what's under the heatsink

https://hard.rozetka.com.ua/asus_rog_strix_z370_h_gaming/p24948993/

https://www.ple.com.au/Products/629472/ASUS-ROG-Strix-Z370-H-Gaming-LGA1151-CL-ATX-Desktop-Motherboard
Backside

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1364718-REG/asus_republic_of_gamers_strix.html

edit: seems the ASUS Strix B250H Gaming and ASUS Strix H270F Gaming used ON Semiconductor 4C06B + 4C09B

Z370-G STRIX seems to use Vishay SiRA14dp in the middle (likely for Asus Proclock)

https://www.ple.com.au/Products/629471/ASUS-ROG-Strix-Z370-G-Gaming-WiFi-LGA1151-CL-mATX-Desktop-Motherboard


----------



## navjack27

Oh I noticed you linked to my video with the power draw lol. Nice thx.


----------



## AlphaC

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *navjack27*
> 
> Oh I noticed you linked to my video with the power draw lol. Nice thx.


Would be really good if you can describe to us what your cooling setup is and how hot the VRM gets at every major wattage interval (~20-30W) along with the temperature inside the case.
i.e. 130-150W (roughly MCE / 4.7GHz) ,170-180W , 200-210W

P.S. should use hwinfo64 for current load

Found this neat graph on HKEPC

https://www.hkepc.com/15547/%E5%85%A8%E6%96%B0Coffee_Lake%E5%BE%AE%E6%9E%B6%E6%A7%8B_Intel_Core_i7-8700K_%E8%99%95%E7%90%86%E5%99%A8%E8%A9%B3%E7%B4%B0%E6%B8%AC%E8%A9%A6/page/7#view
Quote:


> Overclocking space, the author has two retail versions of the Core i7-8700K in hand, both L729C133 batches and similar physique, to stabilize ultra-5GHz without opening the lid is very difficult, because the Die temperature has risen to 85 ° C , Using CORSAIR H80i v2 water-cooled radiator, after opening the cover to take 5GHz about 1.34v vCore and successfully passed the Cinebench R15 CPU Test, but 5GHz will be the Core i7-8700K frequency air-cooled overclocking resistance wall, one step over Requires 1.44v on 5.1GHz to complete Cinebench R15 CPU Test.


& hardwareluxx




https://www.hardwareluxx.de/index.php/artikel/hardware/prozessoren/44780-coffee-lake-overclocking-check.html?start=7

Taichi power draw at 5GHz looks around 187W package power

Prime95 ~ 290W


(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJYHj2UX62c)

Z370 M5 backside information


Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!








http://detail.zol.com.cn/1186/1185085/pic.shtml


http://detail.zol.com.cn/1186/1185085/pic_548_1.shtml


Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!








http://detail.zol.com.cn/1186/1185085/pic_14171_1.shtml


----------



## navjack27

Sure dude. I got nothing else to do tonight.
But for now, not delidded. Kraken x61. Kryonaut paste. But I'll get those numbers. I'll have to use an infared thermal gun thingy to get temps to go along with whatever hwinfo reports. I'll use my kill-a-watt too... Yah. Good idea.


----------



## HKPolice

IMO most current Z370 boards are under spec'd for OC'd 8700K AVX2 loads.

I'm currently running 5.2Ghz @ 1.33-1.34v load with AVX offset of 2. Prime95 AVX2 blend tests: 220w on large FFT and 280-290w small FFT measured from the wall, delidded CPU hits ~80C max /w D15.

My rig only has a GTX 1070 connected and I'm using a Seasonic Prime Titanium 750w so that 290w wall measurement is around ~250w CPU draw after conversion losses & gpu/mobo/ram overhead.

250w CPU draw @ 1.33v is roughly 188 amps of current, divided by 8 phases = 24a per phase.
The VRMs on my GB Gaming 7 is hitting 101c during small FFT tests even though I'm on an open bench with an 80mm fan blowing over the top set of VRMs.
These fets are supposed to be rated for 60A max and even at less than half of that output, they're hitting over 100C.

I don't see how mid range boards will be able to handle 250w of CPU load.

Of course, if not running AVX2 loads then an OC'd 8700K will probably only hit ~180w max which should be ok for all boards. I do wish GB will release a Z370 Gaming 9 like the Z270 which had 16 phases.

Does anyone know what the max rated current is per VCC socket pin? According to this review: https://www.bit-tech.net/reviews/tech/cpus/intel-core-i7-8700k-coffee-lake-and-z370-chipset-review/1/ the z370 socket has 146 VCC power pins, which means each pin has to carry ~1.28A of current when max loaded @ 188A.


----------



## cortis

Could someone please clarify something for me? I've already bought a locked, non-K i7-8700 (65W TDP) and still haven't decided what motherboard to pair it with. Should I be concerned about the issues (i.e. VRMs' overheating, fewer power phases etc.) of the entry level mobos mentioned in this specific thread or does this only apply to people who are looking to overclock their Coffee Lake CPUs?


----------



## tashcz

Nope. Just get a mobo that supports MCE and boost all cores to 4.6GHz or w/e the max is.


----------



## cortis

I thought MCE had no effect on locked chips.


----------



## tashcz

Well, it only has a point on locked chips, as it boosts all cores to max turbo if set in BIOS. Maybe it was made for something different but that's the only usage now.


----------



## drg0ku

Hello, I am looking at getting a 8700k, delidding and bringing it to 5.2ghz+ on a itx board under water. I am looking at pairing with either a strix z370i with the ek monoblock or asrock fatal1ty z370 itx and a cpu block since the asrock does not have a monoblock. Which one of these two options would give me the highest chance of getting a 5.2ghz+? Or is there any other itx option I can consider


----------



## Solarity

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *drg0ku*
> 
> Hello, I am looking at getting a 8700k, delidding and bringing it to 5.2ghz+ on a itx board under water. I am looking at pairing with either a strix z370i with the ek monoblock or asrock fatal1ty z370 itx and a cpu block since the asrock does not have a monoblock. Which one of these two options would give me the highest chance of getting a 5.2ghz+? Or is there any other itx option I can consider


I think the broad conclusion is the Strix aren't all that great.


----------



## drg0ku

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Solarity*
> 
> I think the broad conclusion is the Strix aren't all that great.


What a shame that asrock itx don't have any monoblock in the market.


----------



## AlphaC

@ HKPolice,
Midrange boards _should_ top out at around 90-100 degrees VRM with AVX at 1.35V or so (not small FFTs) with case cooling , peak power output roughly 250W at the wall. AIO Coolers or high end air with 250-300W+ peak TDP potential are required to extract ~200-220W continuous out of CPU because you need to account for thermal resistance of thermal paste + liquid metal (Coffee Lake is not a soldered CPU).

https://overclock3d.net/reviews/cpu_mainboard/gigabyte_z370_aorus_ultra_gaming_review/14 --- OCCT AVX , RM1000i ~ 92% efficient
http://playwares.com/pcreview/55679055# --- Prime95 AVX large FFT

Both the ROG Hero and Gaming 7 have been shown running 5GHz 1.4V (Aviutl＋x264) with no extra cooling at 90-100 degrees over on livedoor (blog.livedoor.jp/wisteriear/ ).
http://blog.livedoor.jp/wisteriear/archives/1068298475.html
http://blog.livedoor.jp/wisteriear/archives/1068332298.html

What you're seeing is largely a VRM heatsink limitation. That's why to fully utilize the potential of Gaming 7 , ROG Apex/Code/Hero, Taichi, Godlike , etc you would need to cool the VRM with a monoblock or better surface area VRM heatsink than the RGB monstrosity on the Gaming 7.
At least one user reported VRM temperature drops on the Gaming 7 from switching thermal pads and torquing down the VRM heatsink more.

With boards such as GBT Gaming 5 (4.1 and 5.3 °C/W thermal resistance junction to case), MSI's M5 (3.8 and 5.3 °C/W thermal resistance mosfet junction to case), Asus Z370-A Onsemi variant (4.1 and 4.9 °C/W junction to case), Asus E/F/G Strix boards (worse for monoblock purposes due to 25A package limit ; 4°C/W thermal resistance junction to case) getting a monoblock won't increase your potential very much since you're mosfet package limited to an extent. You're looking at about 20-30A maximum per phase without adjusting RDS(on) for voltage and temperature (+20-30% difference at between 80 to 100°C). The STRIX E/F/G just happen to have lower max current for the low side fet (25A package limit).

If you're thinking of watercooling a midrange board (not really worthwhile IMO), a GBT Gaming 5 is a far better bet. Firstly, all components for doubling/dual driver are on the front of the board (under the VRM heatsink area). Secondly, it has been shown to run cooler even without watercooling. Thirdly, the mosfets can handle much more current if kept cool (it's the same power design as on Z270X UD5) to the tune of 45A at 25°C mosfet case temperature for the high side 4C10N and 69A for the low side 4c06N.

The MSI M5 and Pro Carbon are decent but you must keep in mind that the dual drivers (up1962) are on the back of the board. The 4C029 has a similar 46A at 25°C mosfet case temp so there's no major advantage in that respect.

The moment there is a VRM block for the Asrock Z370 K6 or Extreme4 , those would be even better than the GBT Gaming 5. The Fairchild variant (dual channel mosfet) can handle 56A at 25°C on the high side channel and 84A at 25°C on the low side. The Sinopower variant can handle 73A at 25°C for the high side channel and 186A for the low side channel. The main reason why you would prefer the Fairchild variant is that it has faster switching times. With the Asrock Z370 K6/ Extreme4 you're more limited by the CPU power connector than the board.

edit: I did the math with the Fairchild and Sinopower on 5 phases in dual driver mode vs the 10 discrete drivers on the Taichi, you'd still come out ahead of a ONsemi/Vishay 8 phase solution using the mosfets on the GBT Gaming 5 / MSI M5 even if they were interleaved. It is partially due to the approximately 2x lower RDS(on) of the low side channel but also due to lower switch times on the high side channel. Of course in reality the STRIX E/F/G, GBT Gaming 5, MSI M5 may not be interleaved.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *cortis*
> 
> Could someone please clarify something for me? I've already bought a locked, non-K i7-8700 (65W TDP) and still haven't decided what motherboard to pair it with. Should I be concerned about the issues (i.e. VRMs' overheating, fewer power phases etc.) of the entry level mobos mentioned in this specific thread or does this only apply to people who are looking to overclock their Coffee Lake CPUs?


A stock i7-8700*k* draws about 100W in Handbrake with x265 (AVX2) and about 120-130W hammering it in Prime95 with AVX. The i7-8700 is likely going to avoid turboing as high as the i7-8700k for AVX loads.
(refer to ATX12VV power draw http://www.hardware.fr/articles/970-3/overclocking-pratique.html)

This thread mainly applies to overclocked, delidded CPUs on AVX or continuous loads with AVX. For your use case, an Asus TUF / Z370-P, Asrock Killer SLI, MSI Tomahawk & lower, or Asrock Pro4 are still not great ideas due to cut down USB gen 2 , features (such as wifi, M.2 slots), and/or audio. The Gigabyte Gaming 3 , K3 , XP SLI & HD3P then become stronger contenders due to Dual BIOS but the MSI SLI PLUS is usually cheaper. The STRIX-H is still terrible since it costs quite a bit for what it is.

If you buy a cheaper board and use it with AVX on stock CPU, the sustained all core turbo will not hit power limits unless LLC is at ridiculous levels.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *drg0ku*
> 
> Hello, I am looking at getting a 8700k, delidding and bringing it to 5.2ghz+ on a itx board under water. I am looking at pairing with either a strix z370i with the ek monoblock or asrock fatal1ty z370 itx and a cpu block since the asrock does not have a monoblock. Which one of these two options would give me the highest chance of getting a 5.2ghz+? Or is there any other itx option I can consider


I would limit your expectations for an ITX board.

For Fatal1ty ITX , you could probably use the Koolance VRM blocks.
https://www.amazon.com/Koolance-MVR-100-Water-Block-Motherboard/dp/B004YF8CCA/
https://www.amazon.com/Koolance-MVR-40-Water-Block-Motherboard/dp/B004YF8NWO , http://www.performance-pcs.com/koolance-mvr-40-mb-vreg-no-nozzles.html

Or trim to fit https://modmymods.com/watercool-heatkiller-microsw-x-40-diy.html , http://www.aquatuning.us/water-cooling/gpu-water-blocks/gpu-vrm-cooler/14785/watercool-heatkiller-microsw-x-40-diy , http://www.performance-pcs.com/watercool-heatkiller-microsw-x-60-diy.html , https://modmymods.com/watercool-heatkiller-sw-x-60-diy-lt.html

I personally wouldn't buy the STRIX-I because even if you put it under water you're limited to about 14.5-20A per 4C86N mosfet (package limit is 20A) x 6 phases means safety is around 150W tops. The Fatal1ty ITX is far more capable due to the 5 phase power design using 60A Intersil smart powerstages along with the heatpiped heatsink.

The way I see it , for monoblocks and VRM blocks you should only buy a board with mosfets that have a higher package current limit because otherwise you're still limited by the mosfets innate package limits.


----------



## Neville0

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AlphaC*
> 
> @ HKPolice,
> Midrange boards _should_ top out at around 90-100 degrees VRM with AVX at 1.35V or so (not small FFTs) with case cooling , peak power output roughly 250W at the wall. AIO Coolers or high end air with 250-300W+ peak TDP potential are required to extract ~200-220W continuous out of CPU because you need to account for thermal resistance of thermal paste + liquid metal (Coffee Lake is not a soldered CPU).
> 
> https://overclock3d.net/reviews/cpu_mainboard/gigabyte_z370_aorus_ultra_gaming_review/14 --- OCCT AVX , RM1000i ~ 92% efficient
> http://playwares.com/pcreview/55679055# --- Prime95 AVX large FFT
> 
> Both the ROG Hero and Gaming 7 have been shown running 5GHz 1.4V (Aviutl＋x264) with no extra cooling at 90-100 degrees over on livedoor (blog.livedoor.jp/wisteriear/ ).
> http://blog.livedoor.jp/wisteriear/archives/1068298475.html
> http://blog.livedoor.jp/wisteriear/archives/1068332298.html
> 
> What you're seeing is largely a VRM heatsink limitation. That's why to fully utilize the potential of Gaming 7 , ROG Apex/Code/Hero, Taichi, Godlike , etc you would need to cool the VRM with a monoblock or better surface area VRM heatsink than the RGB monstrosity on the Gaming 7.
> At least one user reported VRM temperature drops on the Gaming 7 from switching thermal pads and torquing down the VRM heatsink more.
> 
> With boards such as GBT Gaming 5 (4.1 and 5.3 °C/W thermal resistance junction to case), MSI's M5 (3.8 and 5.3 °C/W thermal resistance mosfet junction to case), Asus Z370-A Onsemi variant (4.1 and 4.9 °C/W junction to case), Asus E/F/G Strix boards (worse for monoblock purposes due to 25A package limit ; 4°C/W thermal resistance junction to case) getting a monoblock won't increase your potential very much since you're mosfet package limited to an extent. You're looking at about 20-30A maximum per phase without adjusting RDS(on) for voltage and temperature (+20-30% difference at between 80 to 100°C). The STRIX E/F/G just happen to have lower max current for the low side fet (25A package limit).
> 
> If you're thinking of watercooling a midrange board (not really worthwhile IMO), a GBT Gaming 5 is a far better bet. Firstly, all components for doubling/dual driver are on the front of the board (under the VRM heatsink area). Secondly, it has been shown to run cooler even without watercooling. Thirdly, the mosfets can handle much more current if kept cool (it's the same power design as on Z270X UD5) to the tune of 45A at 25°C mosfet case temperature for the high side 4C10N and 69A for the low side 4c06N.
> 
> The MSI M5 and Pro Carbon are decent but you must keep in mind that the dual drivers (up1962) are on the back of the board. The 4C029 has a similar 46A at 25°C mosfet case temp so there's no major advantage in that respect.
> 
> The moment there is a VRM block for the Asrock Z370 K6 or Extreme4 , those would be even better than the GBT Gaming 5. The Fairchild variant (dual channel mosfet) can handle 56A at 25°C on the high side channel and 84A at 25°C on the low side. The Sinopower variant can handle 73A at 25°C for the high side channel and 186A for the low side channel. The main reason why you would prefer the Fairchild variant is that it has faster switching times. With the Asrock Z370 K6/ Extreme4 you're more limited by the CPU power connector than the board.
> 
> edit: I did the math with the Fairchild and Sinopower on 5 phases in dual driver mode vs the 10 discrete drivers on the Taichi, you'd still come out ahead of a ONsemi/Vishay 8 phase solution using the mosfets on the GBT Gaming 5 / MSI M5 even if they were interleaved. It is partially due to the approximately 2x lower RDS(on) of the low side channel but also due to lower switch times on the high side channel. Of course in reality the STRIX E/F/G, GBT Gaming 5, MSI M5 may not be interleaved.
> A stock i7-8700*k* draws about 100W in Handbrake with x265 (AVX2) and about 120-130W hammering it in Prime95 with AVX. The i7-8700 is likely going to avoid turboing as high as the i7-8700k for AVX loads.
> (refer to ATX12VV power draw http://www.hardware.fr/articles/970-3/overclocking-pratique.html)
> 
> This thread mainly applies to overclocked, delidded CPUs on AVX or continuous loads with AVX. For your use case, an Asus TUF / Z370-P, Asrock Killer SLI, MSI Tomahawk & lower, or Asrock Pro4 are still not great ideas due to cut down USB gen 2 , features (such as wifi, M.2 slots), and/or audio. The Gigabyte Gaming 3 , K3 , XP SLI & HD3P then become stronger contenders due to Dual BIOS but the MSI SLI PLUS is usually cheaper. The STRIX-H is still terrible since it costs quite a bit for what it is.
> 
> If you buy a cheaper board and use it with AVX on stock CPU, the sustained all core turbo will not hit power limits unless LLC is at ridiculous levels.
> I would limit your expectations for an ITX board.
> 
> For Fatal1ty ITX , you could probably use the Koolance VRM blocks.
> https://www.amazon.com/Koolance-MVR-100-Water-Block-Motherboard/dp/B004YF8CCA/
> https://www.amazon.com/Koolance-MVR-40-Water-Block-Motherboard/dp/B004YF8NWO , http://www.performance-pcs.com/koolance-mvr-40-mb-vreg-no-nozzles.html
> 
> Or trim to fit https://modmymods.com/watercool-heatkiller-microsw-x-40-diy.html , http://www.aquatuning.us/water-cooling/gpu-water-blocks/gpu-vrm-cooler/14785/watercool-heatkiller-microsw-x-40-diy , http://www.performance-pcs.com/watercool-heatkiller-microsw-x-60-diy.html , https://modmymods.com/watercool-heatkiller-sw-x-60-diy-lt.html
> 
> I personally wouldn't buy the STRIX-I because even if you put it under water you're limited to about 14.5-20A per 4C86N mosfet (package limit is 20A) x 6 phases means safety is around 150W tops. The Fatal1ty ITX is far more capable due to the 5 phase power design using 60A Intersil smart powerstages along with the heatpiped heatsink.
> 
> The way I see it , for monoblocks and VRM blocks you should only buy a board with mosfets that have a higher package current limit because otherwise you're still limited by the mosfets innate package limits.


If you're buying vrm waterblocks for the fatility itx, you would still need a chipset waterblock because theyre connected by a heatpipe on the mobo. Depending on the case, you would become limited by the psu as the largest sfx psu is 650W and the most recommended is 600W. SFX-L is a different story.


----------



## AlphaC

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Neville0*
> 
> If you're buying vrm waterblocks for the fatility itx, you would still need a chipset waterblock because theyre connected by a heatpipe on the mobo. Depending on the case, you would become limited by the psu as the largest sfx psu is 650W and the most recommended is 600W. SFX-L is a different story.


This is true.

The chipset heatsink situation is much more easily rectified, the official TDP is 6W. (https://ark.intel.com/products/125903/Intel-Z370-Chipset)

Package is 23mm x 24mm , scaling images of the chipset PCB suggest around this size as well. The chip itself appears to be around 8x10mm.

There are many 25x25mm heatsink solutions that can be attached with thermal tape.

If you're willing to allow for overhang there's the Enzotech solution seen here http://www.performance-pcs.com/enzotech-slf-30-30mm-forged-low-profile-copper-heatsink.html
By scaling the mosfet package (5x5mm) I estimate the diagonal hole center to center distance to be around 48mm. The range is 47.5-53.5mm on this enzotech heatsink.


Spoiler: CU1100 Copper







An aluminum chipset heatsink is a worse idea as a replacement. You would need roughly 40mm x40mm to run passively.


Spoiler: 6063 aluminum







To maintain a temperature of around 50°- 60°C you're looking at about 5°C/W thermal resistance. That's satisfied by an aluminum heatsink of 40mm square dimension with about 10-15mm thickness.

26.60mm square , 11.6mm height pin fin with 200LFM airflow is about 5.3°C/W https://www.digikey.com/catalog/en/partgroup/apr-series/1250

4.08 °C/W 29mm square footprint, 12.7mm height (aluminum 6063 T5) : https://www.mouser.com/search/ProductDetail.aspx?R=0virtualkey0virtualkeyWAVE-29-127#spec


Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!







clip on heatsinks https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Wakefield-Vette/903-23-2-18-2-B-0/


Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!








Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Sancus*
> 
> Is the Asus Z370-G mATX adequate for a 5.2ghz 8700K @ 1.425V? Is the Asrock Fatal1ty ITX/ac any better? Rather not wait indefinitely for the EVGA Z370 Micro unless it's absolutely necessary.


Z370-G mATX is supposedly the same VRM as the STRIX-E/F. (That is limited to 25A per low side mosfet)

The Fatal1ty ITX/ac should be just as capable if not more capable provided you cool the Fatal1ty ITX's VRM heatsink. The 60A Intersil Smart Powerstages are definitely able to put out over 40A and with higher efficiency (over 92%). Thermal protection is built in as well.

Just be aware that you really should use an AVX offset with an ITX PCB or a VRM like the STRIX's.

see https://www.hardwareluxx.de/community/f139/intel-coffee-lake-s-sockel-1151-oc-ergebnis-thread-kein-quatschthread-1178256.html#post25869477
Quote:


> 8700K|AVX|5000MHz|1.232V|4500MHz|1800MHz|ASRock Fatal1ty Z370 Gaming-ITX/ac|EK AIO|geköpft|L731C402|Boxed|the_patchelor


(power draw from CPU = 167W)

I've seen people reportedly trigger thermal shutdown on STRIX-E/F at 200W, but the board should be capable of more. It is likely a VRM cooling issue or a current limit in BIOS.

edit: see this newer review of STRIX-E from hardwareluxx, it supposedly pulled 192W power consumption but it wasn't specified if it was from the wall https://www.hardwareluxx.de/index.php/artikel/hardware/mainboards/44666-asus-rog-strix-z370-e-gaming-im-test-das-strix-flaggschiff-fuer-coffee-lake-s.html?start=5


----------



## Sancus

Is the Asus Z370-G mATX adequate for a 5.2ghz 8700K @ 1.425V? Is the Asrock Fatal1ty ITX/ac any better? Rather not wait indefinitely for the EVGA Z370 Micro unless it's absolutely necessary.


----------



## drg0ku

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AlphaC*
> 
> I would limit your expectations for an ITX board.
> 
> For Fatal1ty ITX , you could probably use the Koolance VRM blocks.
> https://www.amazon.com/Koolance-MVR-100-Water-Block-Motherboard/dp/B004YF8CCA/
> https://www.amazon.com/Koolance-MVR-40-Water-Block-Motherboard/dp/B004YF8NWO , http://www.performance-pcs.com/koolance-mvr-40-mb-vreg-no-nozzles.html
> 
> Or trim to fit https://modmymods.com/watercool-heatkiller-microsw-x-40-diy.html , http://www.aquatuning.us/water-cooling/gpu-water-blocks/gpu-vrm-cooler/14785/watercool-heatkiller-microsw-x-40-diy , http://www.performance-pcs.com/watercool-heatkiller-microsw-x-60-diy.html , https://modmymods.com/watercool-heatkiller-sw-x-60-diy-lt.html
> 
> I personally wouldn't buy the STRIX-I because even if you put it under water you're limited to about 14.5-20A per 4C86N mosfet (package limit is 20A) x 6 phases means safety is around 150W tops. The Fatal1ty ITX is far more capable due to the 5 phase power design using 60A Intersil smart powerstages along with the heatpiped heatsink.
> 
> The way I see it , for monoblocks and VRM blocks you should only buy a board with mosfets that have a higher package current limit because otherwise you're still limited by the mosfets innate package limits.


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Neville0*
> 
> If you're buying vrm waterblocks for the fatility itx, you would still need a chipset waterblock because theyre connected by a heatpipe on the mobo. Depending on the case, you would become limited by the psu as the largest sfx psu is 650W and the most recommended is 600W. SFX-L is a different story.


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AlphaC*
> 
> This is true.
> 
> The chipset heatsink situation is much more easily rectified, the official TDP is 6W. (https://ark.intel.com/products/125903/Intel-Z370-Chipset)
> 
> Package is 23mm x 24mm , scaling images of the chipset PCB suggest around this size as well. The chip itself appears to be around 8x10mm.
> 
> There are many 25x25mm heatsink solutions that can be attached with thermal tape.
> 
> To maintain a temperature of around 50°- 60°C you're looking at about 5°C/W thermal resistance. That's satisfied by an aluminum heatsink of 40mm square dimension with about 10-15mm thickness.
> 
> 26.60mm square , 11.6mm height pin fin with 200LFM airflow is about 5.3°C/W https://www.digikey.com/catalog/en/partgroup/apr-series/1250
> 
> 4.08 °C/W 29mm square footprint, 12.7mm height (aluminum 6063 T5) : https://www.mouser.com/search/ProductDetail.aspx?R=0virtualkey0virtualkeyWAVE-29-127#spec


Thank you for the explanation and suggestions on the heatsinks. I will get the Asrock Fatal1ty itx over the asus strix. Aesthetics is also of importance to me since I am going to be using a tempered glass case. I dont want to introduce nickel colours into the build since mine is going to be clear blocks with crimson red liquid and gold fittings. I instead identified clear water blocks for both the vrm and the chipset to make the looks more uniform. Probably have to powder coat the screws on these red or golden yellow.
60 mm mosfet block
Chipset Block

I am not sure how cleanly I can remove the stock heatsinks and replace with waterblocks. Worst case scenario I use the asrock heatsinks as is. I would still be better off than going with the z370i strix + ek monoblock right?

As for psu, yes I will be using a sfx: a repurposed silverstone sfx-l 500w. This pc is not for gaming and it will only have a strix gtx1050ti. I think 500w is more than enough for just the oced 8700k.


----------



## amd7674

Hey guys,

I have unpacked gaming 7 waiting for 8700k to arrive hopefully this week ... I just noticed today this new egg review about the motherboard, should I be concerned? I thought gaming 7 has one of the best VRMs around (including cooling)? is the user perhaps have faulty mobo? Is it the case of vrm heatsink too lose?
Quote:


> Terrible VRM Cooling 11/19/2017 11:04:18 AM
> 
> Pros: -Has all the features you expect from a higher-end board
> -Flashy lights, if you care about that (I don't)
> 
> Cons: -VRM heatsink design is almost entirely cosmetic and the VRMs overheat as a consequence.
> -UEFI interface is a little ugly and has odd choices for some items (LLC for example; the options are "Auto - Standard - Low - Medium - High - Turbo - Extreme")
> 
> Other Thoughts: While running Prime95 Small FFT test, the VRM temperature shot up above 120C in under a minute. This is at a relatively tame 5.1GHz overclock at 1.35 volts. The heatsinks are tight to the board and I now have a fan ducted to blow directly at the VRMs. The temperatures still hit 115C which is the point what which the VRMs throttle. TechReport said Gigabyte told them 135C, but it for sure 100% is 115C. I was watching intel XTU and it indicated throttling the second the VRM temperature hit 115C. The VRM heatsink design is a huge letdown and I am very disappointed. Some others are saying they don't have this problem, so maybe it's just my board. I really don't want to have to deal with the RMA process, especially if I'm going to have to pay any shipping for something that is not my mistake.
> 
> The fact is a reviewer (TechReport) had this problem, they contacted Gigabyte about it, Gigabyte provided them incorrect information at the temperatures VRM throttle, and as a consequence TechReport gave this board their "Recommended Award". I don't know if I'd get a Gigabyte board in the future.


Any comments will be much appreciated.


----------



## Solarity

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *amd7674*
> 
> Hey guys,
> 
> I have unpacked gaming 7 waiting for 8700k to arrive hopefully this week ... I just noticed today this new egg review about the motherboard, should I be concerned? I thought gaming 7 has one of the best VRMs around (including cooling)? is the user perhaps have faulty mobo? Is it the case of vrm heatsink too lose?
> Any comments will be much appreciated.


I saw that too, though people that have tightened the heat sink down a little bit resolved the issue.

Is it me or does that thing feel heavy?


----------



## Koniakki

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *amd7674*
> 
> Hey guys,
> 
> I have unpacked gaming 7 waiting for 8700k to arrive hopefully this week ... I just noticed today this new egg review about the motherboard, should I be concerned? I thought gaming 7 has one of the best VRMs around (including cooling)? is the user perhaps have faulty mobo? Is it the case of vrm heatsink too lose?
> Any comments will be much appreciated.


I wouldn't worry about it. It doesn't seem like a common issue(besides the vrm heatsink tightening) and probably that person got a "bad" board unfortunately.


----------



## amd7674

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Solarity*
> 
> I saw that too, though people that have tightened the heat sink down a little bit resolved the issue.
> 
> Is it me or does that thing feel heavy?


Mobo? I haven't opened yet... Lol. Things are just piling up. Winter tires, both kids in soccer and hockey and my dear wife with a long list of chores. Will I even have time to put this rug together. My older son is so happy as he will be getting [email protected] with old gtx670. This grandpa system will run circles around his i5 laptop (used as desktop).
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Koniakki*
> 
> I wouldn't worry about it. It doesn't seem like a common issue(besides the vrm heatsink tightening) and probably that person got a "bad" board unfortunately.


I hope so that's the case ?


----------



## ChaosAD

I am about to order the Aorus gaming 7, but the only thing that concerns me it the vrm temp issue. Do you think i should go on and get it or go with the hero X and about 20e more and have some piece of mind?


----------



## RustySpoons

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *drg0ku*
> 
> Thank you for the explanation and suggestions on the heatsinks. I will get the Asrock Fatal1ty itx over the asus strix. Aesthetics is also of importance to me since I am going to be using a tempered glass case. I dont want to introduce nickel colours into the build since mine is going to be clear blocks with crimson red liquid and gold fittings. I instead identified clear water blocks for both the vrm and the chipset to make the looks more uniform. Probably have to powder coat the screws on these red or golden yellow.
> 60 mm mosfet block
> Chipset Block
> 
> I am not sure how cleanly I can remove the stock heatsinks and replace with waterblocks. Worst case scenario I use the asrock heatsinks as is. I would still be better off than going with the z370i strix + ek monoblock right?
> 
> As for psu, yes I will be using a sfx: a repurposed silverstone sfx-l 500w. This pc is not for gaming and it will only have a strix gtx1050ti. I think 500w is more than enough for just the oced 8700k.


You won't regret that ASRock board, one thing ASRock do well is build ITX boards for some reason.
I love my Z370 Fatal1ty ITX.


----------



## scracy

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RustySpoons*
> 
> You won't regret that ASRock board, *one thing ASRock do well is build ITX boards* for some reason.
> I love my Z370 Fatal1ty ITX.


The last Asrock ITX board I used was their Z77 board which was outstanding


----------



## RustySpoons

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *scracy*
> 
> The last Asrock ITX board I used was their Z77 board which was outstanding


I sold my ASRock Z77E-ITX it was a cracking board, funny enough the guy who bought it messaged me today saying he's put a GPU in that system and it's running everything like a beast.


----------



## Solarity

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *amd7674*
> 
> Mobo? I haven't opened yet... Lol. Things are just piling up. Winter tires, both kids in soccer and hockey and my dear wife with a long list of chores. Will I even have time to put this rug together. My older son is so happy as he will be getting [email protected] with old gtx670. This grandpa system will run circles around his i5 laptop (used as desktop).
> I hope so that's the case ?


I did the winter tires myself last week, though I only have a toddler, a very busy one and an OCD wife. I feel yah. I have all my parts in, though haven't put it together. I am building two clones for my old man and I. We will give our old systems to our nephews.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ChaosAD*
> 
> I am about to order the Aorus gaming 7, but the only thing that concerns me it the vrm temp issue. Do you think i should go on and get it or go with the hero X and about 20e more and have some piece of mind?


I am not worried. Though it took a much bigger discount to get rid of my ROG fan boy status. In the end I saved over $100 going with the Gaming 7 over the Maximus. My ROG swift 27" will be very lonely.


----------



## drg0ku

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RustySpoons*
> 
> You won't regret that ASRock board, one thing ASRock do well is build ITX boards for some reason.
> I love my Z370 Fatal1ty ITX.


That's great! As a reference, can you share what oc and voltage you were able to achieve with your board.


----------



## kevindd992002

Why can't they just release the Code or Formula already, sigh.


----------



## scracy

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kevindd992002*
> 
> Why can't they just release the Code or Formula already, sigh.


Code available in Australia already Formula not far away
https://www.scorptec.com.au/product/Motherboards/Intel-Socket-1151/70605-MAXIMUS-X-CODE


----------



## kevindd992002

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *scracy*
> 
> Code available in Australia already Formula not far away
> https://www.scorptec.com.au/product/Motherboards/Intel-Socket-1151/70605-MAXIMUS-X-CODE


Nice! Though that price is too steep. That translates to $481 USD. Are AU prices generally higher than the rest?


----------



## scracy

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kevindd992002*
> 
> Nice! Though that price is too steep. That translates to $481 USD. Are AU prices generally higher than the rest?


Yeah because of our location and because of our small population we pay whats called the Australia tax, so things here cost way more than anywhere else in the world







Put it another way when I built my P.C it was cheaper for me to buy 2x GTX1070 from Amazon in the US then it was to buy 1 GTX1080 locally


----------



## encrypted11

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *scracy*
> 
> Yeah because of our location and because of our small population we pay whats called the Australia tax, so things here cost way more than anywhere else in the world
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Put it another way when I built my P.C it was cheaper for me to buy 2x GTX1070 from Amazon in the US then it was to buy 1 GTX1080 locally


Going for the formula there mate?


----------



## scracy

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *encrypted11*
> 
> Going for the formula there mate?


If I go Z370 then yeah I would but my workloads don't really benefit much from having more than 4 cores, so still undecided.


----------



## akumouu

Quote:


> I have unpacked gaming 7 waiting for 8700k to arrive hopefully this week ... I just noticed today this new egg review about the motherboard, should I be concerned? I thought gaming 7 has one of the best VRMs around (including cooling)? is the user perhaps have faulty mobo? Is it the case of vrm heatsink too lose?
> Any comments will be much appreciated.


I didnt experience issues with VRM temps being too high myself (max around 60) but it definitely doesnt have the best VRM cooling. In all likelihood yours will be fine but there have been quite a few reports of VRM cooling issues.

Personally i hate this motherboard. Its the first Gigabyte board ive had and im not impressed. The Bios is absolute **** compared to ASUS. The memory overclocking is horrid and extremely difficult considering every time it fails to boot it ******* resets the bios entirely instead of merely putting the memory to default values. That being said if you only intend simple tweaks you should be fine.


----------



## bl4ckdot

On caseking Code is at 380 while the Formula is 470€.


----------



## scracy

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *akumouu*
> 
> I didnt experience issues with VRM temps being too high myself (max around 60) but it definitely doesnt have the best VRM cooling. In all likelihood yours will be fine but there have been quite a few reports of VRM cooling issues.
> 
> Personally i hate this motherboard. Its the first Gigabyte board ive had and im not impressed. *The Bios is absolute **** compared to ASUS*. The memory overclocking is horrid and extremely difficult considering every time it fails to boot it ******* resets the bios entirely instead of merely putting the memory to default values. That being said if you only intend simple tweaks you should be fine.


Hmmm...regarding UEFI I have been saying that for a while


----------



## asdkj1740

do anyone have the info about asus "asp" marking controller, as well as the corresponding driver/doubler?
according to tweaktown asus mobo reviews, it is suspected that asp1400 is from richtek, so do those drivers/dobulers.
i have checked ricktek official site for the info to those little driver/douber ic, but none of them 's marking is started with "C" and the dot is at top left corner.

there is only one driver model having "C" marking however it is started with "1C" rather than "C1", and the dot is located at the bottom left corner.
https://www.richtek.com/assets/product_file/RT9624C/DS9624C-04.pdf

richtek
https://www.richtek.com/Parametric%20Search/Parametric%20Search?tree_ID=36#

some old asus mobos with asp1400
https://www.tweaktown.com/reviews/7592/asus-z170-pro-intel-motherboard-review/index3.html
https://www.tweaktown.com/reviews/8020/asus-rog-strix-z270g-gaming-motherboard-review/index3.html


----------



## e-gate

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *amd7674*
> 
> Hey guys,
> 
> I have unpacked gaming 7 waiting for 8700k to arrive hopefully this week ... I just noticed today this new egg review about the motherboard, should I be concerned? I thought gaming 7 has one of the best VRMs around (including cooling)? is the user perhaps have faulty mobo? Is it the case of vrm heatsink too lose?
> Any comments will be much appreciated.


Mine has no problems at all and VRMs run very cool. I tried a 5ghz overclock and with Prime95 it stayed around 70C.
I suspect some faulty boards are on the loose. If you are that unlucky and get a faulty one you can always try to fix it by yourself or RMA it.


----------



## amd7674

I will take my chance with Gaming 7 and stick with it, hopefully my gskill 3200 14CL will work with it.

Thank you everyone for your comments 

EDIT: I lied, after rethinking I'll go with Taichi.... I will go tonight to exchange it.


----------



## ezveedub

Any concerns with the Aorus Z370 Gaming 5? Was looking over the data chart at the beginning and didn't see anything too alarming. It will with an i5 8600K and possibly an EK monoblock. Coming off my old X58 UD7 mobo, seems lot a mobos lately have gone a bit thin in the power circuitry department. Not sure if the power circuit components have gotten that good or not, lol


----------



## asdkj1740

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ezveedub*
> 
> Any concerns with the Aorus Z370 Gaming 5? Was looking over the data chart at the beginning and didn't see anything too alarming. It will with an i5 8600K and possibly an EK monoblock. Coming off my old X58 UD7 mobo, seems lot a mobos lately have gone a bit thin in the power circuitry department. Not sure if the power circuit components have gotten that good or not, lol


gaming 5 mosfets seem to be the same as ultra gaming mosfets, except gaming 5 has dual inductors for a set of mosfets.


----------



## RustySpoons

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *drg0ku*
> 
> That's great! As a reference, can you share what oc and voltage you were able to achieve with your board.


Sadly the only K chip I have currently is a 8700K in my Hero X, I have a i5 8400 in the ASRock Fatal1ty ITX at the moment, I'm getting a i5 8600K to go in there though, I will post on here when I get it with results etc.


----------



## lb_felipe

Silicon Lottery dropped two ASRock boards from its QVL.

https://siliconlottery.com/pages/intel-coffee-lake


----------



## AlphaC

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *amd7674*
> 
> Mobo? I haven't opened yet... Lol. Things are just piling up. Winter tires, both kids in soccer and hockey and my dear wife with a long list of chores. Will I even have time to put this rug together. My older son is so happy as he will be getting [email protected] with old gtx670. This grandpa system will run circles around his i5 laptop (used as desktop).
> I hope so that's the case ?


It's a fixable issue on the Gaming 7. Any Gaming 7 with a monoblock should be unaffected by this "issue".

@ lb_felipe, I revised chart accordingly. I am curious why the K6 & Extreme4 were removed though. I've seen people on the hardwareluxx site with 5.2GHz AVX on the K6 & 5.1GHz AVX on the Extreme4 (https://www.hardwareluxx.de/community/f139/intel-coffee-lake-s-sockel-1151-oc-ergebnis-thread-kein-quatschthread-1178256.html). The K6 has 240W package power draw in Coretemp.

In other news I was looking at the datasheet for the doubler/dual driver (596Z = ISL6596) on Asrock's Fatal1ty Pro / Taichi / K6 / Extreme4 boards and it seems that the Fairchild mosfets would be more suitable given that the Sinopower mosfets have double rise / fall times of the dual driver (8ns).

Upon closer inspection of the Killer SLI's pictures on xfastest it seems that there are 3 small ICs, one of which near the top of the board is labeled "5AZ". This suggests that it is the ISL6625A is used in some form , though it is unclear in what way. The ISL95856 controller only allows for 4+3 phases. If it were doubled to 8 there should be 4 dual drivers / doublers. Since there's 11 chokes I highly doubt it would be 6+3 : 8+3 seems like the most likely setup.

The ISL6617 (Gaming 7) is less than 5ns rise/fall...
The ISL6625 on the Gigabyte Gaming 5 isn't that quick , it's about 30ns. That's why the 4C10N + 4C06N is at mercy of the dual driver as well. I suspect the use of the dual drivers on the front of the board lessens the thermal loads.

Upi's up1962 on the mid-end MSI boards appears to have 35ns "typical" rise time on the high/low channel with 45ns "max rising time , along with 20-30ns falling time. There's also a massive 40-65ns propagation delay.

If it's true that Asus uses Richtek's RT9624C: Richtek RT9624C seems around 25ns rise and 10-12ns fall time. Even though the Vishay SiRA14dp parts have ~ 8ns rise/fall "typical" and 16ns max they're not massively better than the 4c09+4c10 variant of Asus' Z370-A if the same dual driver is used. Seems the high gate propagation delay is 60ns.

It's puzzling that the Gaming 5 has outright better thermals than the Z370 STRIX boards. Perhaps part of that has to do with the use of the heatpiped heatsink on the Gaming 5. Having two times the heatsink to dissipate heat from, regardless of how the heatsink is, allows for _even_ heat dispersion.

In retrospect I think the Taichi should be rated higher than the Fatal1ty Gaming Pro i7. The BIOs updates have been more timely for the Taichi and I have seen far fewer Taichi boards running the _less lossy (in terms of low side RDS(on) only) but slower switching_ Sinopower variants.

----
TUF Pro Gaming review seems to run contrary to the Chinese one. 5.2GHz was obtained but the delta power consumption was about 167W, up from 97W delta power consumption at stock (all at the wall). However it's being tested on wprime and not Prime95 or AVX applications.
https://www.guru3d.com/articles_pages/asus_tuf_z370_pro_gaming_review,27.html
---> stock showed 98W peak power in wprime (per hwinfo), PSU is AX1200i: https://www.guru3d.com/articles_pages/asus_tuf_z370_pro_gaming_review,8.html

TUF Plus looks to be using Vishay Sira14dp+Sira12dp (doubled low side)
http://blog.naver.com/digiji1/221145284775

another asrock Pro4 with NIKOs : http://blog.naver.com/PostView.nhn?blogId=thereno03&logNo=221144616138

Gaming 5 review: https://news.xfastest.com/review/review-focus/43210/gigabyte-z370-aorus-gaming-5-review/


Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!


----------



## ZaknafeinGR

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ezveedub*
> 
> Any concerns with the Aorus Z370 Gaming 5? Was looking over the data chart at the beginning and didn't see anything too alarming. It will with an i5 8600K and possibly an EK monoblock. Coming off my old X58 UD7 mobo, seems lot a mobos lately have gone a bit thin in the power circuitry department. Not sure if the power circuit components have gotten that good or not, lol


As AlphaC mentioned, it doesn't have the best power delivery, but it's otherwise fine. No issues with 5 GHz 8700K and memory @ 3600C16.


----------



## drumsticks

EVGA Z370 Micro is up for purchase if anybody is looking for an mATX board. It's supposed to be built for overclocking (even if it won't hold a candle to the best ATX boards), so here's hoping it ends up better than our current crop of mATX.

$179.99 https://www.evga.com/products/product.aspx?pn=121-KS-E375-KR


----------



## asdkj1740

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *drumsticks*
> 
> EVGA Z370 Micro is up for purchase if anybody is looking for an mATX board. It's supposed to be built for overclocking (even if it won't hold a candle to the best ATX boards), so here's hoping it ends up better than our current crop of mATX.
> 
> $179.99 https://www.evga.com/products/product.aspx?pn=121-KS-E375-KR


the heatsinks are satisfying. 8+4pin is said to be able to lower vrm temp more than a single 8 pin.
dual bios with physical switch, debug led placed at good area, physical power button are all welcome.
bulid in speaker is strange, nowadays.
included a wifi card but not preinstalled.
included m.2 thermal pad, but no m.2 heatsink, assuming the thermal pad is suppose to be used on the bottom of the m.2 ssd?

single m.2 slot is quiet disappointed.
two pcie slots are true x16 for sli/cf, but no sli hb bridge included.
rare to see japanese fp cap on audio side nowadays, no isolation, audio header is too far from the chip..... poor audio design as always from evga...but good to see this time evga finally has stepped up to latest realtek audio alc1220.
no 20pin usb 3.1 gen2 front header, no type c port in the back io, seems to be no gen 2 at all no matter asm2142 or asm3142.

fintek F71869AD super io monitor, rare to see it too.


----------



## penther

Hi

First thanks for some really good researche on the field. have looked in all pages and are still a little uncertain to what board i would choose for I7 8700k with corsair 3200 ram, I must apologise if the question have been asked before.

I would like to have 2 or 3 nvm pcix ssd and mabye to extend ram to 64 gb, but think it is maybe overkill to anly gaming.

i will only have air cooling(bequiet dark rock tf and a good aircooled antec P193V3. Would like to reach 5 or 5.1 ghz on air, but will downs clock it for normal as office in the normal day operations. I want good quality of the components and a good solution of mosfet etc. but can not see why i have to pay almost two time the value from asus hero/asrock and gigabyte to msi godlike card. Haven't seen any thermal vire of heating with m2. pci ssd? think the thermal cover some producents have must be a pure marketing stunt. would like to run raid 0 with two m2 pcix ssd from the start for windows. i will only use a 1080 card and a pcix soundcard









i haven't been able to see the layer of PCB of the cards.

I have narrows it down to:

Asrock Z370 Fatal1ty Professional Gaming i7 (have a lot, but are not certain on the quality, seems cheep compared to Asus and MSI´s top models, it says 12 phases but excel in this forum says lower :/)

Gigabyte Aorus Gaming 7 (as i can read i have to change the thermal pads from stock?)

Asus Hero (have always used Asus so i know the quality but it seems that it is worse in components quality)

Asus Apex (problem with only 2 rams slots, and are not overcloking with other then air, but it seems as the best quality, space (EATX) and components from asus?)

Msi gaming 5?

is there any other cards i have missed that shold be good?

kind regards
Michael from Danmark


----------



## moustang

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *penther*
> 
> Hi
> Gigabyte Aorus Gaming 7 (as i can read i have to change the thermal pads from stock?)


You don't have to. Most of their motherboards have no problem with VRM heat. But there have been a few reports of problems regarding the pads, so you should be aware of them. Most of those reports came from very early production boards, I haven't heard of any recent complaints using newer boards.

I've got the Gaming 7 and even with a 5.1GHZ overclock my VRM never exceeds 62C which is totally fine. Not even close to the thermal limits of the VRM.


----------



## MrBeer

My gigabyte z370 gaming 7 vrm is only at 62c . I must have a newer board.I have to fix my sig again old system


----------



## ezveedub

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ZaknafeinGR*
> 
> As AlphaC mentioned, it doesn't have the best power delivery, but it's otherwise fine. No issues with 5 GHz 8700K and memory @ 3600C16.


I'm not planning on going that high, lol....if it does 4.5-4.8Ghz with a 8600K, I'm fine. It will be my daughters PC to use to replace her I7 860 on a Asus P7P55DE-Pro running 4.0Ghz OC now.....just updating everyone after 7-8 years of use.


----------



## drumsticks

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *asdkj1740*
> 
> the heatsinks are satisfying. 8+4pin is said to be able to lower vrm temp more than a single 8 pin.
> dual bios with physical switch, debug led placed at good area, physical power button are all welcome.
> bulid in speaker is strange, nowadays.
> included a wifi card but not preinstalled.
> included m.2 thermal pad, but no m.2 heatsink, assuming the thermal pad is suppose to be used on the bottom of the m.2 ssd?
> 
> single m.2 slot is quiet disappointed.
> two pcie slots are true x16 for sli/cf, but no sli hb bridge included.
> rare to see japanese fp cap on audio side nowadays, no isolation, audio header is too far from the chip..... poor audio design as always from evga...but good to see this time evga finally has stepped up to latest realtek audio alc1220.
> no 20pin usb 3.1 gen2 front header, no type c port in the back io, seems to be no gen 2 at all no matter asm2142 or asm3142.
> 
> fintek F71869AD super io monitor, rare to see it too.


Yeah it's got a lot of ups and downs, but so do the other MicroATX boards IMO. They seem kind of silly to have been needed in the first place, but I prefer the tradeoffs that EVGA made, if the VRMs come out to be that much better than the Strix-G. The Fatality ITX fits too, but I need the second PCIe slot. The second m.2 slot can always be compensated with an adapter on the PCIe x4 port, which is imo slightly more elegant than the vertically mounted one from the Strix. Audio will probably take a hit, but I might be buying an external dac anyways, and it will still probably be better than the cheapest solutions. I think the lack of Type C or 3.1 is the strangest omission to me, but I can live without it for one more motherboard.

All of this hinges on the quality of it's overclocking capabilities, though. I don't expect Gaming 7/Hero levels of overclocking or anything, especially in a $180 board, but I'd like to see something better than the Strix-G; if it's much better I can forgive all of the other flaws.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *penther*
> 
> Hi
> 
> First thanks for some really good researche on the field. have looked in all pages and are still a little uncertain to what board i would choose for I7 8700k with corsair 3200 ram, I must apologise if the question have been asked before.
> 
> I would like to have 2 or 3 nvm pcix ssd and mabye to extend ram to 64 gb, but think it is maybe overkill to anly gaming.
> 
> i will only have air cooling(bequiet dark rock tf and a good aircooled antec P193V3. Would like to reach 5 or 5.1 ghz on air, but will downs clock it for normal as office in the normal day operations. I want good quality of the components and a good solution of mosfet etc. but can not see why i have to pay almost two time the value from asus hero/asrock and gigabyte to msi godlike card. Haven't seen any thermal vire of heating with m2. pci ssd? think the thermal cover some producents have must be a pure marketing stunt. would like to run raid 0 with two m2 pcix ssd from the start for windows. i will only use a 1080 card and a pcix soundcard
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> i haven't been able to see the layer of PCB of the cards.
> 
> I have narrows it down to:
> 
> Asrock Z370 Fatal1ty Professional Gaming i7 (have a lot, but are not certain on the quality, seems cheep compared to Asus and MSI´s top models, it says 12 phases but excel in this forum says lower :/)
> 
> Gigabyte Aorus Gaming 7 (as i can read i have to change the thermal pads from stock?)
> 
> Asus Hero (have always used Asus so i know the quality but it seems that it is worse in components quality)
> 
> Asus Apex (problem with only 2 rams slots, and are not overcloking with other then air, but it seems as the best quality, space (EATX) and components from asus?)
> 
> Msi gaming 5?
> 
> is there any other cards i have missed that shold be good?
> 
> kind regards
> Michael from Danmark


If you're only gaming and aiming for 5-5.1 GHz, you probably don't need the top end motherboards to be honest. You also don't need 64GB of RAM. There are plenty of reasons to go up to 64GB, but if you're a pure gamer, it's unnecessary. The Gaming 7 or Gaming 5 would be fine, even the Asrock Extreme4 which is a fair bit cheaper than those other boards will offer pretty good value for a 5GHz overclock.


----------



## bl4ckdot

@br0da / @AlphaC

The sheets in the first page is dead


----------



## asdkj1740

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *drumsticks*
> 
> Yeah it's got a lot of ups and downs, but so do the other MicroATX boards IMO. They seem kind of silly to have been needed in the first place, but I prefer the tradeoffs that EVGA made, if the VRMs come out to be that much better than the Strix-G. The Fatality ITX fits too, but I need the second PCIe slot. The second m.2 slot can always be compensated with an adapter on the PCIe x4 port, which is imo slightly more elegant than the vertically mounted one from the Strix. Audio will probably take a hit, but I might be buying an external dac anyways, and it will still probably be better than the cheapest solutions. I think the lack of Type C or 3.1 is the strangest omission to me, but I can live without it for one more motherboard.
> 
> All of this hinges on the quality of it's overclocking capabilities, though. I don't expect Gaming 7/Hero levels of overclocking or anything, especially in a $180 board, but I'd like to see something better than the Strix-G; if it's much better I can forgive all of the other flaws.


considering all lanes allocated, missing usb3.1 gen2 maybe acceptable. but missing sli hb bridge is nonsense.
i thinks this evga matx board would be way better than msi gaming pro and asus strix g, in overclocking. however the evga bios is said to be suck.


----------



## drumsticks

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *asdkj1740*
> 
> considering all lanes allocated, missing usb3.1 gen2 maybe acceptable. but missing sli hb bridge is nonsense.
> i thinks this evga matx board would be way better than msi gaming pro and asus strix g, in overclocking. however the evga bios is said to be suck.


It has to be a pretty small niche that is looking for SLI on a mATX board. Admittedly, they're the ones who chose to advertise it, so I agree that it doesn't make sense. Personally, it won't affect me, as I'm a single GPU guy, but it's still a noteworthy omission.

Hopefully they've made some improvements. I'm coming from an i5-4670k, so I haven't needed a new motherboard in a while. I can deal with any annoying issues, as long as the core product is great. The Z370-G and MSI board are letdowns. At least the Asrock mATX doesn't pretend to be premium.


----------



## MrBeer

Went from gigabyte z170 to z370 gaming 7 to me the 2 boards are the same works np no crashing at 5 ghz 8700k.rhe only difference. I see is I need to use turbo in llc to use 1.32vcore.temp and voltage are good.


----------



## UnknownSoldier

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MrBeer*
> 
> Went from gigabyte z170 to z370 gaming 7 to me the 2 boards are the same works np no crashing at 5 ghz 8700k.rhe only difference. I see is I need to use turbo in llc to use 1.32vcore.temp and voltage are good.


It's reassuring to see more people without issues. Bit torn over whether to test out mine to see if there's VRM issues, or just send it back and grab a mobo that's not having QC issues.


----------



## br0da

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bl4ckdot*
> 
> The sheets in the first page is dead


Fixed.


----------



## amd7674

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *UnknownSoldier*
> 
> It's reassuring to see more people without issues. Bit torn over whether to test out mine to see if there's VRM issues, or just send it back and grab a mobo that's not having QC issues.


+1,

I don't blame you. I have all my parts except 8700k (still in transit) :-(... It is a big upgrade from my sandybridge [email protected]

First I bought Gaming 7 at the local store and I've returned it (due to some VRM heating issue) last night and I bought Taichi. Now after reading one single review on newegg with someone having some audio issues with Taichi, I'm again having second thoughts... :-(

Gaming 7 is on great special and I would save about $65CDN on it or maybe I should go all the way in and buy Hero (to match Asus gtx1070)... or I should stop reading internet and keep Taichi... I think the loooooooong wait for CPU is killing me...

On top of that I was "harassing" AlphaC (thank you again for all your help) with a number of stupid PMs about my "BIG" problems...

All I want is good mobo to o/c 8700k (I will delid it in the future) to 5ghz (lottery pedning) on Noctua 15 (air hsf) and keep it for the next 5 years.

I'm sorry for my rant...


----------



## z057

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AlphaC*
> 
> SNIP
> 
> @ lb_felipe, I revised chart accordingly. I am curious why the K6 & Extreme4 were removed though. I've seen people on the hardwareluxx site with 5.2GHz AVX on the K6 & 5.1GHz AVX on the Extreme4 (https://www.hardwareluxx.de/community/f139/intel-coffee-lake-s-sockel-1151-oc-ergebnis-thread-kein-quatschthread-1178256.html). The K6 has 240W package power draw in Coretemp.
> 
> In other news I was looking at the datasheet for the doubler/dual driver (596Z = ISL6596) on Asrock's Fatal1ty Pro / Taichi / K6 / Extreme4 boards and it seems that the Fairchild mosfets would be more suitable given that the Sinopower mosfets have double rise / fall times of the dual driver (8ns).
> 
> Upon closer inspection of the Killer SLI's pictures on xfastest it seems that there are 3 small ICs, one of which near the top of the board is labeled "5AZ". This suggests that it is the ISL6625A is used in some form , though it is unclear in what way. The ISL95856 controller only allows for 4+3 phases. If it were doubled to 8 there should be 4 dual drivers / doublers. Since there's 11 chokes I highly doubt it would be 6+3 : 8+3 seems like the most likely setup.
> 
> SNIP


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *lb_felipe*
> 
> Silicon Lottery dropped two ASRock boards from its QVL.
> 
> https://siliconlottery.com/pages/intel-coffee-lake


I see you asked SL in his CL thread - until he answers, my total guess why?

I have ASRock Extreme4 on hand and been doing a lot of work with it. My hunch why SL removed them is that with the ASRock Extreme4 (and likely by extension the K6, as there are the same PCB/BIOS design) is random vdroop issues. Even with the supposed "fix" in recent BIOS. even at LLC level 2, it will randomly droop as much as 90mv triggering random instabilities in an otherwise stable CPU. I've seen even LLC level1 droop as much as 40mv randomly under heavy AVX loads.

I haven't checked what mosfets my Extreme4 is using, but I'm guessing that SL is seeing too many issues in the E4 and K6 to support his "Simple OC Guarantee".

The board I find is otherwise pretty good, but needs more tweaking with voltages to get a stable OC then just set core ratio+voltage and forget.


----------



## AlphaC

@ penther , you're missing the Fatal1ty K6. If you include MSI's boards you must include the K6...









Anyway if you aren't running AVX continuously, don't worry too much about it. Any board from midrange upwards should be alright.

In other news the MSI Pro carbon review from Steven:
https://www.tweaktown.com/reviews/8424/msi-z370-gaming-pro-carbon-ac-motherboard-review/index10.html

56°C at 4.9Ghz / 1.3V in handbrake

Taichi with Fairchild mosfets again

https://www.techbang.com/posts/55066-increase-front-usb-31-gen2asrock-z370-taichi-minor-change-to-fight?page=1

EVGA Z370 Micro : rear of board , I see what look to be 4 doublers/dual drivers

https://www.evga.com/products/product.aspx?pn=121-KS-E375-KR


Manual: https://www.evga.com/support/manuals/files/121-KS-E375.pdf
Probably the Infineon 35A DrMos suspected on the Z370 FTW. (Page 120 of manual) However the Z370 Micro seems to have an additional 4 pin power connector so I don't even know if the shot is applicable.

Review of Gaming 7 with what appears to be minimal contact pressure


Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!






http://www.ixbt.com/mainboard/z370-aorus-gaming7.html

MSI Z370 PC Pro : SM4337 + some sort of NIKOS



https://www.hardwareinside.de/community/gallery/albums/msi-z370-pc-pro.798/

Z370 Tomahawk delta power draw at wall (5GHz) = 156W
CPU load = x264
Quote:


> summary
> Hands on this Intel Core i7-8700K can be easily overclocked to 5GHz should be no big problem, the performance can also be higher than the default to upgrade 6 ~ 15%, but the relative temperature and power consumption also go up, the temperature x264 computing from 70 Degrees to 87 degrees, power consumption increased from 199W to 231W, but this is related to the CPU voltage, if your hand i7-8700K can be lower voltage 5GHz, the temperature and power consumption can be lower, as with the previous generation i7-7700K Needless to say, this generation of i5-8600K can be pressed over it, after all, there are absolute advantages of multi-core, but to see single-core efficiency, in fact, just a little bit more.


http://www.coolaler.com/threads/msi-z370-tomahawk-core-i7-8700k.348336/#post-3371723


----------



## ehume

So what is the latest on 390 boards? When are they due?


----------



## Clausewitz

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *HKPolice*
> 
> Too bad the VRMs are a lottery between fairchild & sinopower fets.


From what I understand that won't really make a difference for someone looking to get a 5ghz daily overclock.


----------



## Clausewitz

The Z370 segment is so confusing for me. There are now Taichi "sinopower" variants. The K6 and Extreme4 have apparent Load Line issues. The Gaming 7 is great but you might have a loose VRM heatsink.

What board is the go-to if you want good quality control, consistent parts (VRM), and don't want to worry about needing to "add parts" to the heatsink so the VRMs don't overheat?


----------



## skyhawk21

Gigabyte Gaming 5 brother. VRM temps with turbo to 4.7 and all cores 4.3ghz stock settings with xmp profile for ddr4 3200 16-18-18 16gb dual kit, 30-40c idle in room with 20-21c ambient temps and 50-60c under full load in aida64 stress test and realbench so far.

Corsair spec 02 case with two 120mm front fans at 800rpm and 1 120mm fan rear 800rpm with dust covered open top and PSU facing up with fan which is a 140mm on an evga 850W B2. Stable so far. Using memtest 7.2 uefi boot to test ram yet system appears stable thus far.

Next overclocking time starting with a higher uncore. Stock on gigabyte for 8700k is 3.7ghz. On msi boards it's 4.4.

So I'll bench and compare numbers setting it at 4.4ghz since it should auto down clock with the CPU at set p states from windows 10.

Next it's CPU clock and voltages hoping for 5ghz around 1.36v - 1.4. (Got average 8700k silicon lottery because I got the worst luck, my 7700k is even worse!)
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Clausewitz*
> 
> The Z370 segment is so confusing for me. There are now Taichi "sinopower" variants. The K6 and Extreme4 have apparent Load Line issues. The Gaming 7 is great but you might have a loose VRM heatsink.
> 
> What board is the go-to if you want good quality control, consistent parts (VRM), and don't want to worry about needing to "add parts" to the heatsink so the VRMs don't overheat?


----------



## asdkj1740

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AlphaC*
> 
> Manual: https://www.evga.com/support/manuals/files/121-KS-E375.pdf
> Probably the Infineon 35A DrMos suspected on the Z370 FTW. (Page 120 of manual) However the Z370 Micro seems to have an additional 4 pin power connector so I don't even know if the shot is applicable.


lots of compromises here, all fan headers are just 1a output...lagging behind than the average standard...
if this evga matx cant overclock well, it is totally suck.


----------



## asdkj1740

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hW8GLXGAM8Y&ab_channel=ActuallyHardcoreOverclocking

gigabyte z370 soc force ln2 (non retail)

8+4 eps connectors, fp japanese 10k cap

vcore:
8*ir3553 , ir35201 (8+0), no doubler->true 8phases

vccsa & vccio:
1*ir3553 & 1*3553, both controlled by ir3570 (1+1?)

igpu:
4*(4c06n+4c10n), another ir35201 (4+0?), using 2*(ir3598 or ir3599?) dual driver/doubler

ddr4 (dual slot only):
2*ir3553, another ir3570 (2+0)


----------



## kevindd992002

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *scracy*
> 
> Yeah because of our location and because of our small population we pay whats called the Australia tax, so things here cost way more than anywhere else in the world
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Put it another way when I built my P.C it was cheaper for me to buy 2x GTX1070 from Amazon in the US then it was to buy 1 GTX1080 locally


I see, that's a bummer! Pricing of high-end parts in my country is also higher than the US so I'm used to buying stuff from the US.


----------



## bloot

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *asdkj1740*
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hW8GLXGAM8Y&ab_channel=ActuallyHardcoreOverclocking
> 
> gigabyte z370 soc force ln2 (non retail)
> 
> 8+4 eps connectors, fp japanese 10k cap
> 
> vcore:
> 8*ir3553 , ir35201 (8+0), no doubler->true 8phases
> 
> vccsa & vccio:
> 1*ir3553 & 1*3553, both controlled by ir3570 (1+1?)
> 
> igpu:
> 4*(4c06n+4c10n), another ir35201 (4+0?), using 2*(ir3598 or ir3599?) dual driver/doubler
> 
> ddr4 (dual slot only):
> 2*ir3553, another ir3570 (2+0)


IR3553? :/


----------



## VRMfreak

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bloot*
> 
> IR3553? :/


Lol yeah, Asus can afford IR3555M for mid high range board, why Gigabyte cannot do that for top of the line OC board.
Even their X399/X299s have IR3556 which are only a bit glorified 3553s


----------



## AlphaC

If it is true Gigabyte used IR3553 instead of a 50A IR3556 or 60A IR3555, perhaps it is due to space constraints. At the same time I'm skeptical since SOC Force LN2 has multiple world records.

Buildzoid didn't get a picture of the board without heatsinks, so it could be inaccurate.

I guess the true 8 phase has lower switching delays than using the doublers as on APEX / Godlike.

This board probably won't be getting a monoblock due to low volume so it's literally a LN2 only board.

see also https://www.instagram.com/p/BbKGgcAFSXc/


----------



## pastorx

I have this same problem, I can not decide between GIGABYTE Z370 AORUS Gaming 5 (temperature/quality VRM?) / Asrock TAICHI z370 (audio problems? ), / GIGABYTE z370 gaming 7 (vrm temp) / ASrock extreme 4 - K6 (audio problems?) ASUS xtrix E ( vrm temp ).

ASROCK TAICHI vs GAMING 5 vs STRIX E vs ASUS PRIME Z370-A vs ASrock Extreme.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Clausewitz*
> 
> The Z370 segment is so confusing for me. There are now Taichi "sinopower" variants. The K6 and Extreme4 have apparent Load Line issues. The Gaming 7 is great but you might have a loose VRM heatsink.
> 
> What board is the go-to if you want good quality control, consistent parts (VRM), and don't want to worry about needing to "add parts" to the heatsink so the VRMs don't overheat?


----------



## pastorx

I think the taichi would be the most balanced but I have doubts because of its two variants -sinopower and a user in newegg mentioned audio problems, lately I have seen complaints about the audio on the asrock line - k6/extreme4 / taichi.


----------



## bobekk

Hey

Im currently using Asrock Killer Sli with 8600K OC'ed to 4.8Ghz with 1.275v set as fixed. As already know Asrock boards have common problem with Offset voltage setting and also with LLC other than 1 or 2. As we can see looks like they try to cover/fix few design mistakes by releasing new revision of same boards (new vrms etc) Since i have ability to change my motherboard now im lookin toward Msi Gaming M5 board. Can someone elaborate about how it handle OC and daily usage? I want to break 5.0Ghz OC but Asrock isnt helping ATM with slow uefi/bios updates, im not even sure that LLC issues can be fixed by software. Dont get me wrong i loved P67 Pro3 that served me very well with my i5 2550K for past 5 years but im looking for board that dobt give me more problems than its needed.

If theres other boards in same price tag as M5 (but no Gigabyte sorry) worth lookiing please say it.


----------



## ZaknafeinGR

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *pastorx*
> 
> I have this same problem, I can not decide between GIGABYTE Z370 AORUS Gaming 5 (temperature/quality VRM?) / Asrock TAICHI z370 (audio problems? ), / GIGABYTE z370 gaming 7 (vrm temp) / ASrock extreme 4 - K6 (audio problems?) ASUS xtrix E ( vrm temp ).
> 
> ASROCK TAICHI vs GAMING 5 vs STRIX E vs ASUS PRIME Z370-A vs ASrock Extreme.


There's nothing wrong with the Gaming 5 VRMs and their temperatures... unless you want to push AVX loads at 5.0 GHz+ 24/7, they're good for up to ~180w load (70s VRM temps, inside a hot case with 2 GPUs). I'm not sure on their absolute limit, I'll let AlphaC cover that.


----------



## AlphaC

I think some people are overthinking it. Look at the chart title again.

AVX workloads. If you aren't pushing AVX continuously, even something like a MSI Z370 SLI PLUS would likely be capable with case airflow over heatsinks.

The so called "audio problems" people allege on Asrock boards are overblown. At least one user on Asrock official forums noted that all minor random buzzing was fixed by correctly mounting their motherboard to their case. The buzzing was due to lack of ground for the audio section when they didn't screw in the bottom left screw into the standoff.

You have to note that even if the Sinopower dual channel mosfet variant of Asrock boards has slower switch times vs the Fairchild variant , it could possibly have lower temperatures due to lower RDS(on) and slightly lower thermal resistance than the Fairchild parts. So all in all it evens out as long as you aren't looking for the fastest switching.

Sinopower SM7341EHKP switching times & other assorted info:
Channel Q1 = 9.6ns rise (typical), 19ns fall (typical)
Channel Q1 RDS(on) = 3.2 mΩ typical, 3.9 mΩ (max)
Channel Q2 = 14ns rise (typical), 25ns fall (typical)
Channel Q2 RDS(on) = 1 mΩ typical , 1.2mΩ (max)

R_theta JC= 4°C/W for channel 1, 2°C/W for channel 2

Fairchild FDPC5030SG info:
Q1 = 2ns rise (typical) / 10ns (max) , 2ns fall (typical) / 10ns (max)
Q1 RDS(on) = 4.1 mΩ typical, 5 mΩ (max) --- at 125°C T_J , it jumps to 5.7 mΩ typical and 7 mΩ max
Q2= 4ns rise (typical) / 10ns (max) , 3ns fall (typical) / 10ns (max)
Q2 RDS(on) = 1.9 mΩ typical , 2.4 mΩ max --- at 125°C T_J , it jumps to 2.7 mΩ typical and 3.4 mΩ max

R_theta JC= 5.6°C/W for channel 1, 4.9°C/W for channel 2

Regardless, *both* dual-N style fets are better in terms of high side switching and low side RDS(on) than the ones used on the STRIX boards , the GBT Gaming 5 , and MSi's midrange. The fact that 5 PWM phases are used instead of 4 just solidifies their position at the top of midrange.

The dual driver used (ISL6596) is much faster than the competing solutions used on other midrange boards , with merely 8ns rise and fall.

The true mid-range boards aren't spectacular:
STRIX's Sira14dp rise time = 8ns , 16ns max , but at the same time the Realtek RT9624C dual driver supposedly has 25ns rise time and 10-12ns fall time so I personally feel it is likely the Asus Onsemi variants with higher amperage rating are better.
* low side Sira12dp is limited to 25A, but also it has a RDS(on) of 4.3 mΩ .
Gigabyte's Gaming 5's 4c10N rise time = 26ns , fall time = 4ns ; low side 4c06n has 4 mΩ RDS(on) ; dual driver ISL6625 has 28-31ns rise time & 16-18ns fall time so it's not astounding
MSI's Gaming M5 4C029 rise time = 26ns, fall time = 4ns ; low side 4c024 has 2.8 mΩ RDS(on) ; its dual driver hasn't been confirmed but up1962 has an output rise time of 35-45ns and 20-30ns fall time which is why I am hesitant to call it a good board

The propagation delays for the dual drivers are similarly categorized in performance.

The Gaming 5 is decent. At the $150-160 pricing it is running right now it is reasonable since wifi is included but I'd hesitate at $170+. The Korean review had it pulling up to 220W average / 250W peak wattage in Prime95 at the wall when overclocked at 4.9GHz @ 1.3V with no airflow. The temperature peaked around 100°C with an AIO in an open bench setup (i.e. no case airflow) ; ~ 90°C with an AIO in open bench enabled with Multicore-enhancement pulling ~ 190W average / 211W peak. In a case using the same AIO or with proper airflow I'd expect it to be cooler.
http://playwares.com/pcreview/55679055#

FSP Aurum PT 1200W (the PSU in the review) is around 91% efficient at ~ 200W :
http://hexus.net/tech/reviews/psu/87419-fsp-aurum-pt-1200w/?page=5
http://www.jonnyguru.com/modules.php?name=NDReviews&op=Story4&reid=398
https://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/FSP/PT-1200FM/6.html

If the image's PT 850W was used it is similar (91-92% or so):
https://www.sweclockers.com/test/19950-fsp-aurum-pt-850-w/4 , http://playwares.com/pcreview/46408758#

This suggests about 180W-200W at the CPU when the input wattage is 220W.

edit: see this VRM temp chart just posted by OC3D

https://overclock3d.net/reviews/cpu_mainboard/asus_z370_maximus_x_apex_review/3

& new Gaming 5 review
Quote:


> The cooling system consists of three main aluminum radiators: one removes heat from the Intel Z370 chipset, while the other two cover the elements of the processor's power supply subsystem. During the testing, the following temperature indicators were recorded:
> 
> the cooling heatsink of the chipset is 35.3 ° C (when overclocked - 35.6 ° C);
> the upper cooler for cooling the elements of the processor's power supply subsystem is 41.8 ° C (at acceleration - 48.2 ° C);
> The lateral radiator for cooling the elements of the processor's power supply subsystem is 40.8 ° C (at overclocking - 46.1 ° C);
> chokes - 47,5 ° C (at overclocking - 58,1 ° C).


https://ru.gecid.com/mboard/gigabyte_z370_aorus_gaming_5/
(stress test was AIDA64 FPU only, 4.9GHz @ 1.296V with a Noctua NH-U14S)

Hardwareluxx's Sinopower variant Taichi:
https://www.hardwareluxx.de/index.php/artikel/hardware/mainboards/44794-asrock-z370-taichi-im-test-leistungsstarkes-z370-brett-der-oberklasse.html?start=1


----------



## ehume

Too bad OC3D could not include the Aorus Gaming 7 in their chart. +rep for the find and posting it here.


----------



## aliquiswe

Black Friday now.

I saw a review of the x370 gaming k3 were he seemed to think that was a nice board.

Which of the Gigabyte boards have decent not necessarily stellar VRM? I just have a Noctua NH-U12 and at most would have an NH-D15 or 360 mm AIO like the Thermaltake one. Unlikely to delid (though I know that's worse for power consumption and of course heat.) Wouldn't want to run very high voltages (below 1.4?) And guess I could max out at 5.0?

Are there differences of ASUS A Prime and Strix E and F? I think Prime looks nicer and it's cheaper.

I'll see if the Extreme4 will sell cheaper but in an X370 and B350 review he seemed to think only VRM was good on those boards and also that memory overclocking wasn't that good.

I don't know what carries over from AM4 to 1151v2 though.

My cat has basically been close to dying the last days so I haven't checked and can't focus much right now.

And num of phases x amperes for these boards and what should I am for for a non-enthusiast but maybe some OC board?

Or otherwise.

I know ASUS boards atleast Strix had better microphone input and if those are OK and discounted maybe I'd get one. They can still do 5 GHz right? But run hotter or with less spare or something? I don't know how much microphone input matter for me and maybe that was the large difference of Asus vs others.

Do all Gigabyte boards do the low voltages?

Thanks. And sorry for asking









Pro carbon slightly worse than strix atx?


----------



## aliquiswe

Is front usb 3.1 gen 2 always compatible with type c or are the connectors different and type c is a different one than ... a?


----------



## aliquiswe

Strix Z370-F 1499 SEK
MSI Z370 Gaming M5 1699 SEK

(ASUS Z370 Extreme 4 1699 SEK.)

Is either above worth? Is M5 any good?


----------



## ezveedub

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AlphaC*
> 
> I think some people are overthinking it. Look at the chart title again.
> 
> AVX workloads. If you aren't pushing AVX continuously, even something like a MSI Z370 SLI PLUS would likely be capable with case airflow over heatsinks.
> 
> The so called "audio problems" people allege on Asrock boards are overblown. At least one user on Asrock official forums noted that all minor random buzzing was fixed by correctly mounting their motherboard to their case. The buzzing was due to lack of ground for the audio section when they didn't screw in the bottom left screw into the standoff.
> 
> You have to note that even if the Sinopower dual channel mosfet variant of Asrock boards has slower switch times vs the Fairchild variant , it could possibly have lower temperatures due to lower RDS(on) and slightly lower thermal resistance than the Fairchild parts. So all in all it evens out as long as you aren't looking for the fastest switching.
> 
> Sinopower SM7341EHKP switching times & other assorted info:
> Channel Q1 = 9.6ns rise (typical), 19ns fall (typical)
> Channel Q1 RDS(on) = 3.2 mΩ typical, 3.9 mΩ (max)
> Channel Q2 = 14ns rise (typical), 25ns fall (typical)
> Channel Q2 RDS(on) = 1 mΩ typical , 1.2mΩ (max)
> 
> R_theta JC= 4°C/W for channel 1, 2°C/W for channel 2
> 
> Fairchild FDPC5030SG info:
> Q1 = 2ns rise (typical) / 10ns (max) , 2ns fall (typical) / 10ns (max)
> Q1 RDS(on) = 4.1 mΩ typical, 5 mΩ (max) --- at 125°C T_J , it jumps to 5.7 mΩ typical and 7 mΩ max
> Q2= 4ns rise (typical) / 10ns (max) , 3ns fall (typical) / 10ns (max)
> Q2 RDS(on) = 1.9 mΩ typical , 2.4 mΩ max --- at 125°C T_J , it jumps to 2.7 mΩ typical and 3.4 mΩ max
> 
> R_theta JC= 5.6°C/W for channel 1, 4.9°C/W for channel 2
> 
> Regardless, *both* dual-N style fets are better in terms of high side switching and low side RDS(on) than the ones used on the STRIX boards , the GBT Gaming 5 , and MSi's midrange. The fact that 5 PWM phases are used instead of 4 just solidifies their position at the top of midrange.
> 
> The dual driver used (ISL6596) is much faster than the competing solutions used on other midrange boards , with merely 8ns rise and fall.
> 
> The true mid-range boards aren't spectacular:
> STRIX's Sira14dp rise time = 8ns , 16ns max , but at the same time the Realtek RT9624C dual driver supposedly has 25ns rise time and 10-12ns fall time so I personally feel it is likely the Asus Onsemi variants with higher amperage rating are better.
> * low side Sira12dp is limited to 25A, but also it has a RDS(on) of 4.3 mΩ .
> Gigabyte's Gaming 5's 4c10N rise time = 26ns , fall time = 4ns ; low side 4c06n has 4 mΩ RDS(on) ; dual driver ISL6625 has 28-31ns rise time & 16-18ns fall time so it's not astounding
> MSI's Gaming M5 4C029 rise time = 26ns, fall time = 4ns ; low side 4c024 has 2.8 mΩ RDS(on) ; its dual driver hasn't been confirmed but up1962 has an output rise time of 35-45ns and 20-30ns fall time which is why I am hesitant to call it a good board
> 
> The propagation delays for the dual drivers are similarly categorized in performance.
> 
> The Gaming 5 is decent. At the $150-160 pricing it is running right now it is reasonable since wifi is included but I'd hesitate at $170+. The Korean review had it pulling up to 220W average / 250W peak wattage in Prime95 at the wall when overclocked at 4.9GHz @ 1.3V with no airflow. The temperature peaked around 100°C with an AIO in an open bench setup (i.e. no case airflow) ; ~ 90°C with an AIO in open bench enabled with Multicore-enhancement pulling ~ 190W average / 211W peak. In a case using the same AIO or with proper airflow I'd expect it to be cooler.
> http://playwares.com/pcreview/55679055#
> 
> FSP Aurum PT 1200W (the PSU in the review) is around 91% efficient at ~ 200W :
> http://hexus.net/tech/reviews/psu/87419-fsp-aurum-pt-1200w/?page=5
> http://www.jonnyguru.com/modules.php?name=NDReviews&op=Story4&reid=398
> https://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/FSP/PT-1200FM/6.html
> 
> If the image's PT 850W was used it is similar (91-92% or so):
> https://www.sweclockers.com/test/19950-fsp-aurum-pt-850-w/4 , http://playwares.com/pcreview/46408758#
> 
> This suggests about 180W-200W at the CPU when the input wattage is 220W.
> 
> edit: see this VRM temp chart just posted by OC3D
> 
> https://overclock3d.net/reviews/cpu_mainboard/asus_z370_maximus_x_apex_review/3
> 
> & new Gaming 5 review
> https://ru.gecid.com/mboard/gigabyte_z370_aorus_gaming_5/
> (stress test was AIDA64 FPU only, 4.9GHz @ 1.296V with a Noctua NH-U14S)
> 
> Hardwareluxx's Sinopower variant Taichi:
> https://www.hardwareluxx.de/index.php/artikel/hardware/mainboards/44794-asrock-z370-taichi-im-test-leistungsstarkes-z370-brett-der-oberklasse.html?start=1


Thanks for the links on the Aorus Gaming 5....I couldn't find much on this model when first checked around. It should serve fine with my 8600K on a monoblock for the overclocking it will be used for.


----------



## skyhawk21

Do not go with msi currently. They all share same bug/glitches/defect issues the Z370 Sli Plus had that I tried. Even after bios update with fix, issue remained running heavy stress tests and avx. Any settings above stock for 8700k would result in VRM temps rising with a CPU sensor temp fast up to 120c and system VRM throttling as in system or bios cannot handle full load of 6 cores and 12 threads.

The gigabyte gaming 5 has not had no issues with CPU and overclocking neither the VRM gets hot at all. 60c so far max for 4.7 clocks on 8700k and xmp 3200 ram.

I am having a gpu issue though but I might have narrowed down the problem to the newest nvidia driver from Microsoft update... this gpu glitch I need to fix first before overclocking crazy..

Major input lag and tearing in gpu benchmarks and games not seen on my 7700k system with different nvidia gpu. The bug is nauseating!!! 388.13 driver I believe, so I am rolling back to 382.25 I think it is and input lag and tearing fixed. If not there are weird bios settings for timing of gpu in pci express slots, yet they are currently on auto in bios from gigabyte.

Something called slice timings.. never seen on other motherboards...
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bobekk*
> 
> Hey
> 
> Im currently using Asrock Killer Sli with 8600K OC'ed to 4.8Ghz with 1.275v set as fixed. As already know Asrock boards have common problem with Offset voltage setting and also with LLC other than 1 or 2. As we can see looks like they try to cover/fix few design mistakes by releasing new revision of same boards (new vrms etc) Since i have ability to change my motherboard now im lookin toward Msi Gaming M5 board. Can someone elaborate about how it handle OC and daily usage? I want to break 5.0Ghz OC but Asrock isnt helping ATM with slow uefi/bios updates, im not even sure that LLC issues can be fixed by software. Dont get me wrong i loved P67 Pro3 that served me very well with my i5 2550K for past 5 years but im looking for board that dobt give me more problems than its needed.
> 
> If theres other boards in same price tag as M5 (but no Gigabyte sorry) worth lookiing please say it.


----------



## amd7674

sorry for asking this again, but:

Does anyone know how to read VRM/Mosfet temperature on ASROCK mobos (i.e. Taichi)?


----------



## Clausewitz

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *amd7674*
> 
> sorry for asking this again, but:
> 
> Does anyone know how to read VRM/Mosfet temperature on ASROCK mobos (i.e. Taichi)?


You'd really have to read it manually.


----------



## pastorx

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AlphaC*
> 
> I think some people are overthinking it. Look at the chart title again.
> 
> AVX workloads. If you aren't pushing AVX continuously, even something like a MSI Z370 SLI PLUS would likely be capable with case airflow over heatsinks.
> 
> The so called "audio problems" people allege on Asrock boards are overblown. At least one user on Asrock official forums noted that all minor random buzzing was fixed by correctly mounting their motherboard to their case. The buzzing was due to lack of ground for the audio section when they didn't screw in the bottom left screw into the standoff.
> 
> You have to note that even if the Sinopower dual channel mosfet variant of Asrock boards has slower switch times vs the Fairchild variant , it could possibly have lower temperatures due to lower RDS(on) and slightly lower thermal resistance than the Fairchild parts. So all in all it evens out as long as you aren't looking for the fastest switching.
> 
> Sinopower SM7341EHKP switching times & other assorted info:
> Channel Q1 = 9.6ns rise (typical), 19ns fall (typical)
> Channel Q1 RDS(on) = 3.2 mΩ typical, 3.9 mΩ (max)
> Channel Q2 = 14ns rise (typical), 25ns fall (typical)
> Channel Q2 RDS(on) = 1 mΩ typical , 1.2mΩ (max)
> 
> R_theta JC= 4°C/W for channel 1, 2°C/W for channel 2
> 
> Fairchild FDPC5030SG info:
> Q1 = 2ns rise (typical) / 10ns (max) , 2ns fall (typical) / 10ns (max)
> Q1 RDS(on) = 4.1 mΩ typical, 5 mΩ (max) --- at 125°C T_J , it jumps to 5.7 mΩ typical and 7 mΩ max
> Q2= 4ns rise (typical) / 10ns (max) , 3ns fall (typical) / 10ns (max)
> Q2 RDS(on) = 1.9 mΩ typical , 2.4 mΩ max --- at 125°C T_J , it jumps to 2.7 mΩ typical and 3.4 mΩ max
> 
> R_theta JC= 5.6°C/W for channel 1, 4.9°C/W for channel 2
> 
> Regardless, *both* dual-N style fets are better in terms of high side switching and low side RDS(on) than the ones used on the STRIX boards , the GBT Gaming 5 , and MSi's midrange. The fact that 5 PWM phases are used instead of 4 just solidifies their position at the top of midrange.
> 
> The dual driver used (ISL6596) is much faster than the competing solutions used on other midrange boards , with merely 8ns rise and fall.
> 
> The true mid-range boards aren't spectacular:
> STRIX's Sira14dp rise time = 8ns , 16ns max , but at the same time the Realtek RT9624C dual driver supposedly has 25ns rise time and 10-12ns fall time so I personally feel it is likely the Asus Onsemi variants with higher amperage rating are better.
> * low side Sira12dp is limited to 25A, but also it has a RDS(on) of 4.3 mΩ .
> Gigabyte's Gaming 5's 4c10N rise time = 26ns , fall time = 4ns ; low side 4c06n has 4 mΩ RDS(on) ; dual driver ISL6625 has 28-31ns rise time & 16-18ns fall time so it's not astounding
> MSI's Gaming M5 4C029 rise time = 26ns, fall time = 4ns ; low side 4c024 has 2.8 mΩ RDS(on) ; its dual driver hasn't been confirmed but up1962 has an output rise time of 35-45ns and 20-30ns fall time which is why I am hesitant to call it a good board
> 
> The propagation delays for the dual drivers are similarly categorized in performance.
> 
> The Gaming 5 is decent. At the $150-160 pricing it is running right now it is reasonable since wifi is included but I'd hesitate at $170+. The Korean review had it pulling up to 220W average / 250W peak wattage in Prime95 at the wall when overclocked at 4.9GHz @ 1.3V with no airflow. The temperature peaked around 100°C with an AIO in an open bench setup (i.e. no case airflow) ; ~ 90°C with an AIO in open bench enabled with Multicore-enhancement pulling ~ 190W average / 211W peak. In a case using the same AIO or with proper airflow I'd expect it to be cooler.
> http://playwares.com/pcreview/55679055#
> 
> FSP Aurum PT 1200W (the PSU in the review) is around 91% efficient at ~ 200W :
> http://hexus.net/tech/reviews/psu/87419-fsp-aurum-pt-1200w/?page=5
> http://www.jonnyguru.com/modules.php?name=NDReviews&op=Story4&reid=398
> https://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/FSP/PT-1200FM/6.html
> 
> If the image's PT 850W was used it is similar (91-92% or so):
> https://www.sweclockers.com/test/19950-fsp-aurum-pt-850-w/4 , http://playwares.com/pcreview/46408758#
> 
> This suggests about 180W-200W at the CPU when the input wattage is 220W.
> 
> edit: see this VRM temp chart just posted by OC3D
> 
> https://overclock3d.net/reviews/cpu_mainboard/asus_z370_maximus_x_apex_review/3
> 
> & new Gaming 5 review
> https://ru.gecid.com/mboard/gigabyte_z370_aorus_gaming_5/
> (stress test was AIDA64 FPU only, 4.9GHz @ 1.296V with a Noctua NH-U14S)
> 
> Hardwareluxx's Sinopower variant Taichi:
> https://www.hardwareluxx.de/index.php/artikel/hardware/mainboards/44794-asrock-z370-taichi-im-test-leistungsstarkes-z370-brett-der-oberklasse.html?start=1


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *skyhawk21*
> 
> Do not go with msi currently. They all share same bug/glitches/defect issues the Z370 Sli Plus had that I tried. Even after bios update with fix, issue remained running heavy stress tests and avx. Any settings above stock for 8700k would result in VRM temps rising with a CPU sensor temp fast up to 120c and system VRM throttling as in system or bios cannot handle full load of 6 cores and 12 threads.
> 
> The gigabyte gaming 5 has not had no issues with CPU and overclocking neither the VRM gets hot at all. 60c so far max for 4.7 clocks on 8700k and xmp 3200 ram.
> 
> I am having a gpu issue though but I might have narrowed down the problem to the newest nvidia driver from Microsoft update... this gpu glitch I need to fix first before overclocking crazy..
> 
> Major input lag and tearing in gpu benchmarks and games not seen on my 7700k system with different nvidia gpu. The bug is nauseating!!! 388.13 driver I believe, so I am rolling back to 382.25 I think it is and input lag and tearing fixed. If not there are weird bios settings for timing of gpu in pci express slots, yet they are currently on auto in bios from gigabyte.
> 
> Something called slice timings.. never seen on other motherboards...


summarizing the GIGABYTE AORUS GA-AX370-Gaming 5 is recommended for an i5 8600k - 8700k, without extreme overclock with a good vrm temperature, currently at 160$ in amazon. Or I must go directly for the taichi z370 currently at 232$ ?


----------



## AlphaC

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *pastorx*
> 
> summarizing the GIGABYTE AORUS GA-AX370-Gaming 5 is recommended for an i5 8600k - 8700k, without extreme overclock with a good vrm temperature, currently at 160$ in amazon. Or I must go directly for the taichi z370 currently at 232$ ?


It's not so much the extreme clocks, but the power required by the CPUs under AVX load at high clocks. (By high I mean like 5.2GHz or higher with -200MHz offset , or something 5.2GHz+ no AVX offset)

I've seen a STRIX-E with *i5*-8600K at 5.7GHz before. It wasn't stressed under AVX, only validated. The Cinebench R15 result was done at 5.5GHz.

Using information gleaned from reviews and power use from
https://www.hardwareluxx.de/community/f139/intel-coffee-lake-s-sockel-1151-oc-ergebnis-thread-kein-quatschthread-1178256.html
5.2-5.3GHz AVX on ASUS MAXIMUS X HERO ~ 200W
5.2GHz AVX on Asrock Z370 Taichi ~ 200 - 230W
5.2GHz AVX on Asrock Z370 Fatal1ty K6 ~ 240W
5.1GHz AVX on Asrock Z370 Extreme4 ~ 225W
5GHz AVX on Asrock Z370 Fatal1ty K6 ~ 200W
5GHz AVX on Asrock Extreme4 ~190W
5GHz AVX on Asrock Z370 Taichi ~180W
5GHz AVX on ASUS MAXIMUS X HERO ~180W

and other sources

It seems the Gaming 5 is capable for moderate overclocking with AVX , but pretty much all reasonable overclocks capable on water if it's non-AVX.

At least for the load PConline is using it seems to be fairly well http://diy.pconline.com.cn/1027/10274129_2.html

http://quasarzone.co.kr/bbs/board.php?bo_table=qc_qsz&wr_id=116104


Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!






GBT Gaming 3 pictures


----------



## bobekk

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *skyhawk21*
> 
> Do not go with msi currently. They all share same bug/glitches/defect issues the Z370 Sli Plus had that I tried. Even after bios update with fix, issue remained running heavy stress tests and avx. Any settings above stock for 8700k would result in VRM temps rising with a CPU sensor temp fast up to 120c and system VRM throttling as in system or bios cannot handle full load of 6 cores and 12 threads.


Can anyone confirm this issues ? I cannot find any info on interwebs beside MSI releasing fix for Prime95 and 8700K, but does it affect 8600K aswell ?


----------



## skyhawk21

One review site had the same issues. Could be defective batch of motherboards or bad VRM chips on msi brand or bug/glitch in bios because bios fix did not help problem with avx workloads.

http://techreport.com/review/32836/msi-z370-gaming-pro-carbon-ac-motherboard-reviewed/6
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bobekk*
> 
> Can anyone confirm this issues ? I cannot find any info on interwebs beside MSI releasing fix for Prime95 and 8700K, but does it affect 8600K aswell ?


----------



## aliquiswe

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *skyhawk21*
> 
> Do not go with msi currently. They all share same bug/glitches/defect issues the Z370 Sli Plus had that I tried. Even after bios update with fix, issue remained running heavy stress tests and avx. Any settings above stock for 8700k would result in VRM temps rising with a CPU sensor temp fast up to 120c and system VRM throttling as in system or bios cannot handle full load of 6 cores and 12 threads.
> 
> The gigabyte gaming 5 has not had no issues with CPU and overclocking neither the VRM gets hot at all. 60c so far max for 4.7 clocks on 8700k and xmp 3200 ram.
> 
> I am having a gpu issue though but I might have narrowed down the problem to the newest nvidia driver from Microsoft update... this gpu glitch I need to fix first before overclocking crazy..
> 
> Major input lag and tearing in gpu benchmarks and games not seen on my 7700k system with different nvidia gpu. The bug is nauseating!!! 388.13 driver I believe, so I am rolling back to 382.25 I think it is and input lag and tearing fixed. If not there are weird bios settings for timing of gpu in pci express slots, yet they are currently on auto in bios from gigabyte.
> 
> Something called slice timings.. never seen on other motherboards...


Is it likely any LLC problems / settings problems / whatever people have on the ASRock boards will be fixed over time?

Also I could overclock without any LLC aswell and just accept the vdroop and then the lower clock frequency but also have a safer processor and thermals right? Like if I say went with 1.25 volt and no LLC and just accepted whatever that would result in. I have no idea what the result would be but say 4.7 GHz instead?

Strix E was listed at the price comparision website for 1888 SEK but the store which have had that sell it for 2390 instead so I wonder when they actually sold it for 1888.
I can still get the Strix F for 1449 but that lack the wifi (fixable) and the front usb 3.1 header (not fixable) and the later I guess would had been enough reason for me to pay the extra (mostly paying for wifi but let the header decide..)

The question is whatever to get either of them over the Extreme4 for 1699 or not.

And the MSI M5 is just 1690 or 1699 or such too and seem to be a much more pricier model normally. The first post here view it as just having 4 phases but I assume that should have some doubling like the other MSI boards too?

No Swedish store sell the Gaming 5 at a lower price now so it's 2385 SEK so not really interesting as is.
Gaming 3 1608
Gaming K3 1687
Ultra Gaming 1910
Gaming Wifi 1969
Gaming 5 2385
Gaimng 7 2761

Nice look on Gaming Wifi (for that guy who didn't liked the Gaming 7 panel?)


----------



## bobekk

well one thing for sure they have problem with lower LLC than 1 and 2, theres alot of talking is that fixable by bios/uefi updates or is that design flow. Seeing that Asrock is releasing new revision for almost every board with changed VRM's tells me thats theres some problems - u do not change something that is working/ isnt broke right? - (killer Sli, Extreme4, K6 and even PRO i7 have VRMS changed check first post)

Im trying to get away from Asrock as they dont have man power currently to fix issues presented in current UEFI's (did i mention also not working Offset mode?) From what i gathererd while exchanging emails with Peter Fest from Asrock NL/EU they got focus in AMD section (new agesa)


----------



## amd7674

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Clausewitz*
> 
> You'd really have to read it manually.


Thank you for the info...


----------



## amd7674

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bobekk*
> 
> well one thing for sure they have problem with lower LLC than 1 and 2, theres alot of talking is that fixable by bios/uefi updates or is that design flow. Seeing that Asrock is releasing new revision for almost every board with changed VRM's tells me thats theres some problems - u do not change something that is working/ isnt broke right? - (killer Sli, Extreme4, K6 and even PRO i7 have VRMS changed check first post)
> 
> Im trying to get away from Asrock as they dont have man power currently to fix issues presented in current UEFI's (did i mention also not working Offset mode?) From what i gathererd while exchanging emails with Peter Fest from Asrock NL/EU they got focus in AMD section (new agesa)


Wow... thanks for the info. I might go for a little bit more expensive hero x or cheaper gaming 7, instead of keeping my taichi. The forums for asrock mobos are very quiet too.


----------



## roybotnik

Does anyone else have problems with the ITE8686E bugging out on the Gigabyte Gaming 7? Mine always does whenever I put the processor under heavy load. It's really annoying because the second IO chip gets the CPU temp from it, so once it happens, any fans controlled by the second chip get stuck at the last speeds they were running at. It also makes it so I can't see VRM temps once it happens.

Board has been excellent otherwise, aside from this one issue. I also wish that Gigabyte would expose more options in the UEFI.. like VRM phase control and switching frequency. For such sturdy board hardware it would be nice to have for testing.


----------



## Divvy

If my purpose is to just OC an 8700k to whatever the CPU temp allows without delidding ( judging by Kaby Lake, that would be <1.3v ) and just play games, would I be okay with an MSI Z370 SLI PLUS?


----------



## VRMfreak

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *roybotnik*
> 
> Does anyone else have problems with the ITE8686E bugging out on the Gigabyte Gaming 7? Mine always does whenever I put the processor under heavy load. It's really annoying because the second IO chip gets the CPU temp from it, so once it happens, any fans controlled by the second chip get stuck at the last speeds they were running at. It also makes it so I can't see VRM temps once it happens.
> 
> Board has been excellent otherwise, aside from this one issue. I also wish that Gigabyte would expose more options in the UEFI.. like VRM phase control and switching frequency. For such sturdy board hardware it would be nice to have for testing.


off topic question, 120mm AIO handles R7 at 1.4V 4.1GHz at reasonable temps?
Both systems look nice


----------



## Koniakki

My 8700k finally arrived. Batch L733C495. Just a quick OC testing. Will do more in the weekend.

The Extreme 4 got LLC 1 vroop although I'm still on release 1.00 bios.

Voltage is 1.315v Fixed @bios. 5GHz testing no avx offset.

Run 20min Prime 26.6 1344k 12 test threads no problems but I will test more extensively tomorrow.

Didnt save the 20min run but I included the below just for reference on the temps voltage which were ~about the same as the longer test.

So 1.315v drops to 1.264v? Is that voltage shown correct? Max package draw was like ~143-144w I think.



*Edit*: Updated to bios 1.10. LLC vdroop *fixed*.


----------



## z057

Extreme4 here, and I still get vdroop as high as 50mv with LLC1 on BIOS 1.20. :/


----------



## Clausewitz

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *z057*
> 
> Extreme4 here, and I still get vdroop as high as 50mv with LLC1 on BIOS 1.20. :/


Getting huge drops on Fatal1ty K6. I think my CPU could go much higher if I didn't have to set voltage so high to deal with massive drop.


----------



## aliquiswe

Is it the case that ASRock are releasing new revisions of their boards?
Is it because LLC/VRM have some issues which can't be fixed otherwise?

Or have the issues been fixed?
No?

TL;DR stops here.
---
People with no life can continue:

I put in an order yesterday with Strix F and M5 with other things but since I ordered the 8700K with an Optane drive to hit a price-point where I got a discount since I've been curious about using SSD as cache storage before (but though Intel had stopped with that on new boards) and had a HDD I kinda may want to use that or I'd have to return both and order a processor again (I have another i7 8700K and i5 8400 too but bought without such discount.)

My problem with both those boards is that they may lack Thunderbolt, definitely lack M.2 Key E, don't have the USB 3.1 gen 2 or whatever front header (but cases don't use them either sadly so ..) and they just have 6 SATA slots too which is a problem because now I have SATA SSD + HDD and if I get a new HDD to use as system drive with the Optane then I'll be using one M.2 for the Optane killing 2 SATA ports, then assume in the future maybe I get another NVMe SSD and there goes another 2. By then you could argue the Optane drive is unnecessary and that I should really boot from the NVMe or use that as cache and that's fair. But assuming not I've then lost 4 SATA connectors I think on most motherboards leaving me with 2 which is exactly what one HDD and my current SATA SSD would use. That mean that I can't use this current 5400 RPM 3 TB WD Green as a backup drive and can't connect any optical drive if I eventually would have a case supporting them and if mine wasn't IDE ones already .. ;D. Also I can't connect any of all my old ext-whatever and ZFS and UFS drives and copy over content from them. Though all but one is IDE so.. I guess I should use a slower machine for that. Or I could even use a slower machine such as this one for backup purposes and do that over network rather than hooking up more drives in the case rendering this a non-issue. Maybe I should even build a NAS?

Anyway, yeah, the Extreme4 would have 2 extra SATA slots, could be expanded with wifi for cheaper / without an expansion card (then again I'm fine using those too except they cost more and limit air-flow more, maybe I'm not ok with them after all? ;D and I would have the best headers.

There's no discount on it but .. It kinda is the better board.

Now hadn't I missed the 1888 SEK deal on the Strix E that at-least would have the M.2 Key E wifi and the front header, Thunderbolt too I think, leaving me just with front USB and SATA headers issues but if we assume the LLC thing is a thing on the ASRock boards then maybe the ASUS Strix E would even had been better there. I'd definitely prefer the software and audio there.

I got the Strix F for 1499, Extreme4 is 1699 and Strix E did sell for 1888 as lowest. The M5 I paid 1699 for and it's marketed as 11 phases so I assume it's 4x2 + 3? Sadly no M.2 key E, no thunderbolt (?), no front usb 3.1 gen 2 (or if there was one but type A instead of C sadly) and just 6 SATA slots.

Guess I should had ordered the Strix E back then 1-2 weeks ago and maybe also got RAM (needed to get the discount) back then and I could had played now.
My cat has been sick to death / under consideration to be killed this week so I've been stressed and busy with that. But the sooner I had ordered the sooner I could actually had played some.
Maybe I should had gotten the 34" Samsung 100 Hz VA QD FreeSync "HDR" 21:9 3440x1440 monitor too for 7290 SEK but didn't put in an order for that.


----------



## aliquiswe

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Koniakki*
> 
> So 1.315v drops to 1.264v? Is that voltage shown correct? Max package draw was like ~143-144w I think.


These things are so sad because my crap Phenom X4 9850 is a 125 watt TDP CPU and my 2.7 GHz OC on auto of that one I think push it up to 140 watt sometimes according to CPU-Z or whatever.
I can easily cool that with basically no case air-flow and the Noctua NH-U12 to just above 60 degrees C but I of course know that won't be the case on Intel due to their TIM solution. So sad. =P


----------



## Koniakki

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *aliquiswe*
> 
> These things are so sad because my crap Phenom X4 9850 is a 125 watt TDP CPU and my 2.7 GHz OC on auto of that one I think push it up to 140 watt sometimes according to CPU-Z or whatever.
> I can easily cool that with basically no case air-flow and the Noctua NH-U12 to just above 60 degrees C but I of course know that won't be the case on Intel due to their TIM solution. So sad. =P


lol!

*Small update:* After briefly updating to v1.10 bios to see if LLC was fixed and then jumping straight to v1.22 bios, my max power during Prime 26.6 went up to ~180ish watts.

Which its a more realistic draw for [email protected]
Previous 140ish watts on release v1.00 bios running Prime [email protected] was too low.


----------



## tashcz

So if I can keep a FX CPU that's drawing 400W+ from the socket while using prime, I guess my cooling can handle 8700K?

Not bragging, just wondering if it's different with Intel.


----------



## Clausewitz

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Koniakki*
> 
> lol!
> 
> *Small update:* After briefly updating to v1.10 bios to see if LLC was fixed and then jumping straight to v1.22 bios, my max power during Prime 26.6 went up to ~180ish watts.
> 
> Which its a more realistic draw for [email protected]
> Previous 140ish watts on release v1.00 bios running Prime [email protected] was too low.


Where can I find the v1.22 BIOS? I only see 1.20.


----------



## darknightz

hi everyone,

New here and read a good portion of the posts in this thread. I recently got the asrock z370 k6 and took some pictures of the mobo. Not sure if i am looking at the right areas, but these Sinopower SM4337 indicate an inferior mosfet or possibly to save costs? Picked up this mobo 2 days ago. According to the VRM list, this mosfet appears on lower tier boards. Thinking to just return this if so.



Cheers!


----------



## Clausewitz

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *darknightz*
> 
> hi everyone,
> 
> New here and read a good portion of the posts in this thread. I recently got the asrock z370 k6 and took some pictures of the mobo. Not sure if i am looking at the right areas, but these Sinopower SM4337 indicate an inferior mosfet or possibly to save costs? Picked up this mobo 2 days ago. According to the VRM list, this mosfet appears on lower tier boards. Thinking to just return this if so.
> 
> 
> 
> Cheers!


That is Sinopower.


----------



## darknightz

the recommended lists shows Fairchild or SM7341EH variants. Does my board have a variant of the 7341eh or is it completely different and indicates asrock is using other chips now?


----------



## Clausewitz

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *darknightz*
> 
> the recommended lists shows Fairchild or SM7341EH variants. Does my board have a variant of the 7341eh or is it completely different and indicates asrock is using other chips now?


The Sinopower is fine for a daily 5ghz OC.


----------



## Asus11

any news on ''MSI Z370I GAMING PRO CARBON AC'' its now available to buy

wondered if it was better than the asrock itx

off there webpage

Supports 8th Gen Intel® Core™ / Pentium® Celeron® processors for LGA 1151 socket
Supports DDR4 Memory, up to 4600+(OC) MHz
Lightning Fast Game experience: 1x TURBO M.2, Intel Optane Memory Ready. LIGHTNING USB 3.1 GEN2
AUDIO BOOST 4 with Nahimic 2+: Reward your ears with studio grade sound quality for the most immersive gaming experience
DDR4 Boost with STEEL ARMOR: Fully isolated, shielded and optimized DDR4 PCB design to give your DDR4 memory a performance boost.
GAMING LAN and Wireless support, powered by Intel®: The best online gaming experience with lowest latency and bandwidth management.
VR Ready: Best virtual reality game experience without latency, reduces motion sickness*
Military Class 5, Guard-Pro: Latest evolution with high quality Japanese components for best protection and efficiency*
In-Game Weapons: Game Boost, GAMING Hotkey, X-Boost, ***ast
EZ Debug LED: Easiest way to troubleshoot
Click BIOS 5: Award-winning BIOS with high resolution scalable font, favorites and search function
GAMING CERTIFIED: 24-hour on- and offline game and motherboard testing by eSports players

EDIT :

some useful sites I found

https://bbs.io-tech.fi/threads/z370-coffee-lake-lga1151-emot-yleissaeie.54496/]

https://www.hardwareluxx.de/community/f12/lga-1151-mainboard-vrm-liste-1175784.html

ok I also found

http://goodgamingmotherboard.com/best-z370-mini-motherboards/


----------



## AlphaC

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Divvy*
> 
> If my purpose is to just OC an 8700k to whatever the CPU temp allows without delidding ( judging by Kaby Lake, that would be <1.3v ) and just play games, would I be okay with an MSI Z370 SLI PLUS?


http://www.vmodtech.com/th/article/msi-z370-sli-plus-review/page/all

MSI SLI PLUS 5.2GHz cinebench R15

I don't if it's stable but if it can do Cinebench it will likely suffice for gaming.

_edit_ also make sure to update BIOs if you get the board, MSI put out BIOs updates dated 10/30 and 11/01 or 11/02 for the Management Engine with the additional notes:
Quote:


> - Fix throttling issue when use 8700 cpu to run Prime95 burning test.
> - Improve memory compatibility.
> - Enhance Game boost function.
> - Fix monitor is not able to turn on after resume from S3 mode via lan wake up event.
> - Update ME VER


This applies to the Godlike, M5, Pro Carbon , SLI PLUS , Krait , and a bunch of other MSI boards such as the Tomahawk and Z370I

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *darknightz*
> 
> hi everyone,
> 
> New here and read a good portion of the posts in this thread. I recently got the asrock z370 k6 and took some pictures of the mobo. Not sure if i am looking at the right areas, but these Sinopower SM4337 indicate an inferior mosfet or possibly to save costs? Picked up this mobo 2 days ago. According to the VRM list, this mosfet appears on lower tier boards. Thinking to just return this if so.
> 
> http://www.overclock.net/content/type/61/id/3158409/width/350/height/700
> 
> Cheers!


Look under the heatsink. Those are not the main switching mosfets. The one you are looking at is likely for something else (ATX 24 pin maybe).

If you don't believe me, look at this Extreme4 review. There's Fairchild mosfets under the main VRM heatsink but SM4337 used where you took a picture.
http://www.hwbattle.com/bbs/board.php?bo_table=hottopic&wr_id=8161


----------



## darknightz

Yes the pic is indeed of chips next to the atx connectors. From what i'm gathering the vrm quality is really of significance if gunning for 5+ghz oc on an 8700k. As i am on a budget, the 8400 and possibly oc 8600k definitely won't be pushing the mobo components.

If this is the case, then it doesn't really matter to me exactly what chips are used. The k6 is roughly 160usd equivalent and all the other choices don't seem to come close to the price/performance ratio of this. Next best alternative is a gb gaming 7 at 195 - 205usd equivalent.

Perhaps will save the 40ish difference in mobo price and get an 8600k over the 8400.


----------



## AlphaC

It is definitely a better option to go with a cheaper motherboard that has all features you want and get an unlocked CPU. At worst, an overclocked i5-8600k is better than a i5-8400 (all core turbo supposedly 3.8GHz) in all scenarios. If not at least go for a i7-8700.


----------



## Asus11

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AlphaC*
> 
> It is definitely a better option to go with a cheaper motherboard that has all features you want and get an unlocked CPU. At worst, an overclocked i5-8600k is better than a i5-8400 (all core turbo supposedly 3.8GHz) in all scenarios. If not at least go for a i7-8700.


do you know of any solid info on the itx from MSI carbon AC? I did find that website but it didn't mention much about its power delivery / VRM


----------



## ehume

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AlphaC*
> 
> It is definitely a better option to go with a cheaper motherboard that has all features you want and get an unlocked CPU. At worst, an overclocked i5-8600k is better than a i5-8400 (all core turbo supposedly 3.8GHz) in all scenarios. If not at least go for a i7-8700.


Even if we are going to use the computer in intensive spurts? At high OC's?

I for one don't care about features. I'm only concerned with intense use spurts. Maybe I'll test the noise of heatsinks and while testing their cooling use a fan to keep the VRM's cool.


----------



## AlphaC

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ehume*
> 
> Even if we are going to use the computer in intensive spurts? At high OC's?
> 
> I for one don't care about features. I'm only concerned with intense use spurts. Maybe I'll test the noise of heatsinks and while testing their cooling use a fan to keep the VRM's cool.


I meant more like SLI PLUS (was $99 on Newegg a day or two ago along with Extreme4 at $125) and upwards. There's no point to buying a top tier board and a i5-8400, since it will be limited to 3.8GHz all core anyway. I didn't mean to buy the boards that hit 90°C on stock with AVX.


----------



## Koniakki

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Clausewitz*
> 
> Where can I find the v1.22 BIOS? I only see 1.20.


Directly from Asrock's support page for Z370 Extreme 4: Here

If you are still on release bios v1.00 you could just update to v1.10 for now until everything is sorted out(assuming everything is running properly on v1.10)


----------



## amd7674

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Koniakki*
> 
> Directly from Asrock's support page for Z370 Extreme 4: Here
> 
> If you are still on release bios v1.00 you could just update to v1.10 for now until everything is sorted out(assuming everything is running properly on v1.10)


Do you guys have any audio issues with your Asrock z370 boards?


----------



## Koniakki

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *amd7674*
> 
> Do you guys have any audio issues with your Asrock z370 boards?


Well in my everyday normal usage using the audio onboard audio(S/PDIF(toslink) out to a LG 9.1 surround system) I haven't heard any audio crackling, buzzing or popping etc in either Youtube, movies/music or games so far. Fingers crossed.









If there's a specific scenario which audio issues can be replicated/reproduce I would gladly check it out.


----------



## MinDokan

The Asus Apex X has two network devices, one is the Aquantia (I believe) AQC108 the other is Intel I219-V, other ROG motherboards like the Hero X does support network teaming, and it's specified in the motherboard description, I wonder if the Apex does also support this feature?


----------



## darknightz

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AlphaC*
> 
> I meant more like SLI PLUS (was $99 on Newegg a day or two ago along with Extreme4 at $125) and upwards. There's no point to buying a top tier board and a i5-8400, since it will be limited to 3.8GHz all core anyway. I didn't mean to buy the boards that hit 90°C on stock with AVX.


Actually that board makes more sense to me as at most i would be looking at i7 8700. I just want a board with 1220 sound, spdif and as a bonus support a high memory overclock. I got a set of ddr4 3200 with b-dies and that is already a huge hole in the pocket. Thanks alpha for your insight.


----------



## Clausewitz

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *amd7674*
> 
> Do you guys have any audio issues with your Asrock z370 boards?


I'm not audiophile but I will say this.


I have no cracking or popping.
The audio sounds clear.
The audio doesn't seem to be as "strong" or robust as other boards but it is on board audio.
I'd argue it's "get the job done audio". If anyone has issues or concerns with audio on motherboards they should just buy sound cards.


----------



## amd7674

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Koniakki*
> 
> Well in my everyday normal usage using the audio onboard audio(S/PDIF(toslink) out to a LG 9.1 surround system) I haven't heard any audio crackling, buzzing or popping etc in either Youtube, movies/music or games so far. Fingers crossed.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If there's a specific scenario which audio issues can be replicated/reproduce I would gladly check it out.


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Clausewitz*
> 
> I'm not audiophile but I will say this.
> 
> 
> I have no cracking or popping.
> The audio sounds clear.
> The audio doesn't seem to be as "strong" or robust as other boards but it is on board audio.
> I'd argue it's "get the job done audio". If anyone has issues or concerns with audio on motherboards they should just buy sound cards.


Thank you, that's what I was looking for


----------



## RustySpoons

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *amd7674*
> 
> Do you guys have any audio issues with your Asrock z370 boards?


No issues on my Z370 Gaming ITX Fatal1ty, drives my Sennheiser HD595 with ease.
Only strange thing is the headphone "Impedance detection" only works on the rear ports not the front, however it sounds fantastic on both and no noise.


----------



## amd7674

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RustySpoons*
> 
> No issues on my Z370 Gaming ITX Fatal1ty, drives my Sennheiser HD595 with ease.
> Only strange thing is the headphone "Impedance detection" only works on the rear ports not the front, however it sounds fantastic on both and no noise.


You could possibly try older or newer realtek audio drivers, but than again if ain't broken... . BTW... Thanks for the info.










I'll be using the same HAF 922 case from my current ivy bridge [email protected] Therefore I know the front wiring is working properly.


----------



## pastorx

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *asdkj1740*
> 
> gaming 5 mosfets seem to be the same as ultra gaming mosfets, except gaming 5 has dual inductors for a set of mosfets.


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AlphaC*
> 
> It's a fixable issue on the Gaming 7. Any Gaming 7 with a monoblock should be unaffected by this "issue".
> 
> @ lb_felipe, I revised chart accordingly. I am curious why the K6 & Extreme4 were removed though. I've seen people on the hardwareluxx site with 5.2GHz AVX on the K6 & 5.1GHz AVX on the Extreme4 (https://www.hardwareluxx.de/community/f139/intel-coffee-lake-s-sockel-1151-oc-ergebnis-thread-kein-quatschthread-1178256.html). The K6 has 240W package power draw in Coretemp.
> 
> In other news I was looking at the datasheet for the doubler/dual driver (596Z = ISL6596) on Asrock's Fatal1ty Pro / Taichi / K6 / Extreme4 boards and it seems that the Fairchild mosfets would be more suitable given that the Sinopower mosfets have double rise / fall times of the dual driver (8ns).
> 
> Upon closer inspection of the Killer SLI's pictures on xfastest it seems that there are 3 small ICs, one of which near the top of the board is labeled "5AZ". This suggests that it is the ISL6625A is used in some form , though it is unclear in what way. The ISL95856 controller only allows for 4+3 phases. If it were doubled to 8 there should be 4 dual drivers / doublers. Since there's 11 chokes I highly doubt it would be 6+3 : 8+3 seems like the most likely setup.
> 
> The ISL6617 (Gaming 7) is less than 5ns rise/fall...
> The ISL6625 on the Gigabyte Gaming 5 isn't that quick , it's about 30ns. That's why the 4C10N + 4C06N is at mercy of the dual driver as well. I suspect the use of the dual drivers on the front of the board lessens the thermal loads.
> 
> Upi's up1962 on the mid-end MSI boards appears to have 35ns "typical" rise time on the high/low channel with 45ns "max rising time , along with 20-30ns falling time. There's also a massive 40-65ns propagation delay.
> 
> If it's true that Asus uses Richtek's RT9624C: Richtek RT9624C seems around 25ns rise and 10-12ns fall time. Even though the Vishay SiRA14dp parts have ~ 8ns rise/fall "typical" and 16ns max they're not massively better than the 4c09+4c10 variant of Asus' Z370-A if the same dual driver is used. Seems the high gate propagation delay is 60ns.
> 
> It's puzzling that the Gaming 5 has outright better thermals than the Z370 STRIX boards. Perhaps part of that has to do with the use of the heatpiped heatsink on the Gaming 5. Having two times the heatsink to dissipate heat from, regardless of how the heatsink is, allows for _even_ heat dispersion.
> 
> In retrospect I think the Taichi should be rated higher than the Fatal1ty Gaming Pro i7. The BIOs updates have been more timely for the Taichi and I have seen far fewer Taichi boards running the _less lossy (in terms of low side RDS(on) only) but slower switching_ Sinopower variants.
> 
> ----
> TUF Pro Gaming review seems to run contrary to the Chinese one. 5.2GHz was obtained but the delta power consumption was about 167W, up from 97W delta power consumption at stock (all at the wall). However it's being tested on wprime and not Prime95 or AVX applications.
> https://www.guru3d.com/articles_pages/asus_tuf_z370_pro_gaming_review,27.html
> ---> stock showed 98W peak power in wprime (per hwinfo), PSU is AX1200i: https://www.guru3d.com/articles_pages/asus_tuf_z370_pro_gaming_review,8.html
> 
> TUF Plus looks to be using Vishay Sira14dp+Sira12dp (doubled low side)
> http://blog.naver.com/digiji1/221145284775
> 
> another asrock Pro4 with NIKOs : http://blog.naver.com/PostView.nhn?blogId=thereno03&logNo=221144616138
> 
> Gaming 5 review: https://news.xfastest.com/review/review-focus/43210/gigabyte-z370-aorus-gaming-5-review/
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!


is there a problem with gaming 5 mosfets being the same ? which are the major differences at vrm?


----------



## RustySpoons

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *amd7674*
> 
> You could possibly try older or newer realtek audio drivers, but than again if ain't broken... . BTW... Thanks for the info.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'll be using the same HAF 922 case from my current ivy bridge [email protected] Therefore I know the front wiring is working properly.


My ITX is in a Phanteks Shift-X case, which doesn't have a front panel audio header, so fortunately for me working the wrong way round is actually beneficial to me


----------



## AlphaC

https://www.overclockers.ua/motherboard/asrock-fatal1ty-z370-gaming-k6/1/

----

5.1GHz on Aorus Ultra Gaming ~ 160W in CB R15
https://www.benchmark.rs/artikal/test_gigabyte_z370_aorus_ultra_gaming_video-4469/7

Z370 Pro Carbon confirmation of Onsemi mosfets


Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!






https://www.ixbt.com/platform/msi-z370-gaming-pro-carbon-ac-review.html

Z370 Pro Carbon again : NTMFS4C024N + NTMFS4C029N
49x multiplier at 1.275V
https://www.hardwareluxx.de/index.php/artikel/hardware/mainboards/44860-msi-z370-gaming-pro-carbon-ac-im-test-bezahlbares-mittelklasse-mainboard.html?start=1

EVGA Z370 FTW overclocked to 5GHz
https://babeltechreviews.com/the-evga-z370-ftw-mb-review-the-i7-8700ks-road-to-5-0ghz/view-all/

ASUS TUF PRO gaming , confirmed 4 phase with doubled low side


Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!






http://quasarzone.co.kr/bbs/board.php?bo_table=qc_qsz&wr_id=116436


----------



## aliquiswe

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *tashcz*
> 
> So if I can keep a FX CPU that's drawing 400W+ from the socket while using prime, I guess my cooling can handle 8700K?
> 
> Not bragging, just wondering if it's different with Intel.


The difference is that without delidding at-least the heat doesn't move as well from the die to the heat spreader.

Place an Oreo between your FX and cooler and retry and see what you can handle then ;D`
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *darknightz*
> 
> Yes the pic is indeed of chips next to the atx connectors. From what i'm gathering the vrm quality is really of significance if gunning for 5+ghz oc on an 8700k. As i am on a budget, the 8400 and possibly oc 8600k definitely won't be pushing the mobo components.
> 
> If this is the case, then it doesn't really matter to me exactly what chips are used. The k6 is roughly 160usd equivalent and all the other choices don't seem to come close to the price/performance ratio of this. Next best alternative is a gb gaming 7 at 195 - 205usd equivalent.
> 
> Perhaps will save the 40ish difference in mobo price and get an 8600k over the 8400.


Where is this with such good prices?
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Koniakki*
> 
> Well in my everyday normal usage using the audio onboard audio(S/PDIF(toslink) out to a LG 9.1 surround system) I haven't heard any audio crackling, buzzing or popping etc in either Youtube, movies/music or games so far. Fingers crossed.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If there's a specific scenario which audio issues can be replicated/reproduce I would gladly check it out.


Since you are using optical there's much less which could introduce those things.


----------



## aliquiswe

Is the Pro Carbon AC simply better than the M5?
The M5 cost more but it has less features and in the VRM list it list as 4 rather than 4x2 phases but I'm pretty sure MSI advertise it as 11 (4x2+3?)
The VRM in the table seem to be like whatever cheaper board had for the M5.
I can't understand why it's a more expensive board. Something on it should bet better then.. Or is it all the shrouds which make the price difference?

Strix F vs those? Still wish I had ordered Strix E or Pro Carbon AC before Or if it turned out ASRock LLC issues are fixed and if those would be better.

I did order a kit of 2x8 GB Corsair Vengeance RGB 3466 MHz CL16 of which some have Samsung B-die today. I could get the Trident Z RGB 3200 MHz CL16 or whatever it is for less (the one without B-die ships I think) but there's a bunch of both and Ripjaws at around the same price point. The Ripjaws are 5-10% cheaper because of lack of RGB. I don't know if Hynix B(R?) or whatever it's called and Samsung E and such even matter for Intel platform? Cheap price matter for me too ;D


----------



## GreedyMuffin

Hello!

I am planning on getting a 8700K setup as I've sold my 7820X setup.

I will be delidding and using a custom loop. MO-RA3 (3x420mm rads)

I was looking and the ASRock Extreme 4 as the price jump to the Taichi is 120 bucks.. (Norway..)

I will have a 120mm fan to cool the VRMs anyways, that's how my current setup is like.

I don't need fancy features nor will be using BCLK OCing. I like clean clocks.

Thank you!


----------



## darknightz

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *aliquiswe*
> 
> The difference is that without delidding at-least the heat doesn't move as well from the die to the heat spreader.
> 
> Place an Oreo between your FX and cooler and retry and see what you can handle then ;D`
> Where is this with such good prices?
> Since you are using optical there's much less which could introduce those things.


These prices are in canada combined with coupons and mir. Microcenter has the gb 7 at 180usd plus tax atm if you are in the usa and lucky to live where they operate. Pretty solid deal imo


----------



## Koniakki

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *GreedyMuffin*
> 
> Hello!
> 
> I am planning on getting a 8700K setup as I've sold my 7820X setup.
> 
> I will be delidding and using a custom loop. MO-RA3 (3x420mm rads)
> 
> I was looking and the ASRock Extreme 4 as the price jump to the Taichi is 120 bucks.. (Norway..)
> 
> I will have a 120mm fan to cool the VRMs anyways, that's how my current setup is like.
> 
> I don't need fancy features nor will be using BCLK OCing. I like clean clocks.
> 
> Thank you!


Absolutely recommending the Extreme 4 here, although the K6 for 200nok it worth a look too imo for the extra features it provides.

On a side note for the Extreme 4, personally coming from the Asus M8H, the overclocking options in Asrock Extreme 4 bios are quite, well, lets say underwhelming.

BUT, this board and the new system in whole, feels a lot more stable vs my previous 7700K/M8H with the same ram and all else. Just swapped mobo/cpu. Didn't even do a fresh install on the 950 PRO.

Can't pinpoint why, but it just works. No hassle, no troubles etc. Overclocking was a breeze even with the "limiting" bios options vs the M8H.

Very pleased and satisfied I went with Z370/CFL so far.


----------



## drumsticks

Received my EVGA Z370 Micro, which is allegedly built for overclocking. I didn't bother to learn enough to be able to really interpret the quality of what I'm looking at, but I did rip off my heatsinks and do my best to get some pictures.


Spoiler: EVGA Z370 Micro Pics











My room is fairly well lit and I was using a Pixel 2 to grab the photos, so that's about as good as I can get. It's _REALLY_ hard to see what's on (what I think are) the actual VRMs. I can definitely see 4C10N and 4C05N MOSFETS from OnSemi. As for the VRMs themselves, I THINK I can see "88240" on them, but they're almost scratched off; I really couldn't read anything at any angle with any kind of light shine on it. Can anybody make sense of it/inform me I wasn't even in the right place? Alternatively, is there something that I could do to make them easier to read? All I did was pull off the heatsink with the thermal pad intact (never been turned on) and try and snap some pictures.

Side note: I really like the heat sinks. There are cutouts both on the top and on the sides/under the overhang that really increase the surface area, compared to something like the STRIX. I think they would be fairly effective.

Edit: Added a shot of the near-CPU/center motherboard heatsink when exposed, although I don't think there's anything else useful. But, just in case it helps determining how good this is.

Double Edit: I don't know if the 4C0*5*N has made an appearance yet. Here's its datasheet. How does it compare to the 4C06N? I know enough to read and understand what the differences are, but I don't know enough about power regulation/computer power delivery to understand how the differences determine which one is better.


----------



## asdkj1740

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *drumsticks*
> 
> Received my EVGA Z370 Micro, which is allegedly built for overclocking. I didn't bother to learn enough to be able to really interpret the quality of what I'm looking at, but I did rip off my heatsinks and do my best to get some pictures.
> 
> 
> Spoiler: EVGA Z370 Micro Pics
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My room is fairly well lit and I was using a Pixel 2 to grab the photos, so that's about as good as I can get. It's _REALLY_ hard to see what's on (what I think are) the actual VRMs. I can definitely see 4C10N and 4C05N MOSFETS from OnSemi. As for the VRMs themselves, I THINK I can see "88240" on them, but they're almost scratched off; I really couldn't read anything at any angle with any kind of light shine on it. Can anybody make sense of it/inform me I wasn't even in the right place? Alternatively, is there something that I could do to make them easier to read? All I did was pull off the heatsink with the thermal pad intact (never been turned on) and try and snap some pictures.
> 
> Side note: I really like the heat sinks. There are cutouts both on the top and on the sides/under the overhang that really increase the surface area, compared to something like the STRIX. I think they would be fairly effective.
> 
> Edit: Added a shot of the near-CPU/center motherboard heatsink when exposed, although I don't think there's anything else useful. But, just in case it helps determining how good this is.
> 
> Double Edit: I don't know if the 4C0*5*N has made an appearance yet. Here's its datasheet. How does it compare to the 4C06N? I know enough to read and understand what the differences are, but I don't know enough about power regulation/computer power delivery to understand how the differences determine which one is better.


very poor pics...try to take photos at 45 degrees with the flash light, zoom in a bit may help, like 20~30%.
vcore seems to be infineon bsg series.


----------



## AlphaC

Infineon TDA 88240 35A DrMos as expected.


----------



## HKPolice

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AlphaC*
> 
> Infineon TDA 88240 35A DrMos as expected.


How do they compare to the IR3500 series or ISL99227B? I can't find any spec sheets on google, only a supplier page: https://www.avnet.com/shop/apac/p/discrete/transistor/mosfet/infineon/tda88240-3074457345631022586/

78c USD seems really really cheap for a DrMOS fet.... Doesn't the ISL99227B cost something like $5 each?


----------



## drumsticks

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *asdkj1740*
> 
> very poor pics...try to take photos at 45 degrees with the flash light, zoom in a bit may help, like 20~30%.
> vcore seems to be infineon bsg series.


Trust me, I did. The actual writing on top of the VRMs is basically scratched off, it seems. There was absolutely no angle or flash of any kind that got me a better picture than these. There was a bit of thermal/adhesive goo on the VRMs still after taking the heatsink off, so that may be what was ruining them, but I didn't want to mess with it too much before seeing if somebody could identify them from the information I'd gathered so far. Fortunately, it doesn't look like I have to mess with it any further.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AlphaC*
> 
> Infineon TDA 88240 35A DrMos as expected.


In case anybody was wondering, AlphaC gave his opinion on these earlier in the thread:
Quote:


> Efficiency-wise they'd be around the Asrock Z370 Extreme4 or Taichi level (~90-92%). Current / power-wise it depends on how it's wired (likely 8+3), but it would likely be on par with the Z370 Extreme4 or Gigabyte Gaming 5 as well. Gigabyte Gaming 5's 4C10N high side fet supposedly can do 34A at 80°C when cooled with a heatsink.
> 
> I suspect Asus STRIX boards and Z370-A are running dual driver mode similar to the MSI boards with Ubiq. They're still faster switching (i.e. better) than the MSI Ubiq parts running dual driver mode , but Gigabyte's solution with a ISL6625A may have an advantage as shown by the thermal imaging despite using slower mosfets than the Vishay parts on the STRIX boards. MSI Pro Carbon is likely held back by the uPi PWM controller, VRM heatsink and the uPi dual output drivers used.


Assuming his assessment still holds, it sounds like overall, it's somewhere around the Gigabyte Gaming 5, which is a decent board?


----------



## skyhawk21

Can anyone with a gigabyte z370 motherboard watch vrm mos temp sensor while running realbench 2.56 stress for hour or two report temps on vrm sensor?

My VRM reading got up to 74c running realbench for two and half hours stress testing with all system fans full speed. Funny thing all fans in system blow air above the height of vrm heat sinks missing it.

When running AIDA64 stability stress test, vrm temp top off at 66c.

This is with 4.7ghz x47 x 100 clock
44 uncore
Corsair RGB 16gb 8x2 kit @ XMP 3200 16-18-18
C1e disabled
Energy efficient Turbo disabled
Voltage optimization disabled

1.26v manual for vcore
Turbo for loadline calibration can't choose extreme
IA DC 1
IA AC 1
1.15v SA
1.12v VCCIO

Gigabyte Gaming 5 with F4 bios still seeing vdroop with llc on Turbo could be power supply which is older EVGA B2 750W 80 bronze

Realbench 2.5 hours stress tested pass, AIDA64 stability 1 hour stress tested pass, Memtest 7.2 UEFI 8 hours stress tested pass.

CPU temp max 82c in realbench

CPU temp max 80c in AIDA64

Cinebench R15 single 207-210
Cinebench R15 multi 1560-1570
Cinebench R15 opengl 180fps using Gigabyte Windforce gtx 1080 and nvidia 388.31 driver

Running Windows build v1607 14393.1884

Benchmarks and games smooth as silk on 1080p 60hz ips Dell monitor

This was all done in cheap corsair case with cheap cooler. Now to finish my project, I need to transfer everything to a Meshify C case and use Noctua U14 cooler for better temps and corsair gold 850w power supply hopefully less vdroop for components on motherboard.


----------



## aliquiswe

Drumsticks: Maybe it's not the brightest of days but you could try to take the photo outdoor. Maybe with someone holding a mirror reflecting sunlight onto the spot if the camera darkens it.
Or use a bicycle light to bring even more light to it.
Maybe washing them off a bit with alcohol could help too but ..


----------



## drumsticks

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *aliquiswe*
> 
> Drumsticks: Maybe it's not the brightest of days but you could try to take the photo outdoor. Maybe with someone holding a mirror reflecting sunlight onto the spot if the camera darkens it.
> Or use a bicycle light to bring even more light to it.
> Maybe washing them off a bit with alcohol could help too but ..


I'm not sure it's necessary. AlphaC identified them above already. In any case, I live in the Northwest, and the next sunny day I have isn't until next Tuesday, and that will probably change. In any case, I couldn't identify any more information or get pictures even under a direct bright LED flashlight that is quite a bit more powerful than my phone's.

Regardless, I wanted to see if they could be identified based on what I provided. According to AlphaC, it's the Infineon TDA 88240 35A DrMos. This makes sense, because I could (reasonably) clearly make out 88240 on the chip. It doesn't look like I need to take them off again, since we have all of the info we need, I think.


----------



## AlphaC

I think better information would be to stress it at 160W and then 180W and then if they don't exceed 80° try for higher such as 200/250W.

Try to look at current & power into the VRM , current + power out to CPU package and the VRM temps at a given ambient (the temp of air above the VRM heatsink).

There's no datasheet available for that Infineon 35A DrMOs part.

----

edit: also Biostar GT6 backside, I'm unsure what sort of Powerpaks it's using


http://www.funkykit.com/reviews/motherboards/biostar-racing-z370gt6-motherboard-review/4/#jp-carousel-65393

DIY pulled about 181W for the Biostar GT6 (not sure if from wall)
http://diy.pconline.com.cn/1028/10280764.html

Eteknix Biostar GT6 review at 5 GHz https://www.eteknix.com/biostar-racing-z370gt6-motherboard-review/2/

Intersil PWM used, it can be up to 10 phases possibly (more likely 8+2) but backside has no doublers so if there are then they are on the front side


----------



## drumsticks

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AlphaC*
> 
> I think better information would be to stress it at 160W and then 180W and then if they don't exceed 80° try for higher such as 200/250W.
> 
> Try to look at current & power into the VRM , current + power out to CPU package and the VRM temps at a given ambient (the temp of air above the VRM heatsink).
> 
> There's no datasheet available for that Infineon 35A DrMOs part.


I'll follow up when I complete my build. Unfortunately, I only have an 8350k on hand right now; I'm not expecting my 8700k for a while yet









If I get my 8700k, I'll follow up with some data asap.


----------



## pastorx

Are your results positive? soon my Aorus gaming 5 will arrive, and I want to know what it is capable of


----------



## pastorx

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *skyhawk21*
> 
> Can anyone with a gigabyte z370 motherboard watch vrm mos temp sensor while running realbench 2.56 stress for hour or two report temps on vrm sensor?
> 
> My VRM reading got up to 74c running realbench for two and half hours stress testing with all system fans full speed. Funny thing all fans in system blow air above the height of vrm heat sinks missing it.
> 
> When running AIDA64 stability stress test, vrm temp top off at 66c.
> 
> This is with 4.7ghz x47 x 100 clock
> 44 uncore
> Corsair RGB 16gb 8x2 kit @ XMP 3200 16-18-18
> C1e disabled
> Energy efficient Turbo disabled
> Voltage optimization disabled
> 
> 1.26v manual for vcore
> Turbo for loadline calibration can't choose extreme
> IA DC 1
> IA AC 1
> 1.15v SA
> 1.12v VCCIO
> 
> Gigabyte Gaming 5 with F4 bios still seeing vdroop with llc on Turbo could be power supply which is older EVGA B2 750W 80 bronze
> 
> Realbench 2.5 hours stress tested pass, AIDA64 stability 1 hour stress tested pass, Memtest 7.2 UEFI 8 hours stress tested pass.
> 
> CPU temp max 82c in realbench
> 
> CPU temp max 80c in AIDA64
> 
> Cinebench R15 single 207-210
> Cinebench R15 multi 1560-1570
> Cinebench R15 opengl 180fps using Gigabyte Windforce gtx 1080 and nvidia 388.31 driver
> 
> Running Windows build v1607 14393.1884
> 
> Benchmarks and games smooth as silk on 1080p 60hz ips Dell monitor
> 
> This was all done in cheap corsair case with cheap cooler. Now to finish my project, I need to transfer everything to a Meshify C case and use Noctua U14 cooler for better temps and corsair gold 850w power supply hopefully less vdroop for components on motherboard.


Are your results positive? soon my Aorus gaming 5 will arrive, and I want to know what it is capable of


----------



## ezveedub

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *pastorx*
> 
> Are your results positive? soon my Aorus gaming 5 will arrive, and I want to know what it is capable of


Read a few pages back, as there are links of the Gaming 5 running 5.0Ghz & 5.1 Ghz....I can't say much personally, as I'm waiting for my backorder 8600K to arrive.


----------



## tashcz

Does a PSU actually affect vdroop?


----------



## ehume

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *tashcz*
> 
> Does a PSU actually affect vdroop?


Not usually.


----------



## tashcz

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ehume*
> 
> Not usually.


Thought so. Just wondered why someone thought a different PSU would make a difference on the vdroop. At least if both PSU's are giving stable voltages on the rails.


----------



## skyhawk21

Yes results are positive for gigabyte gaming 5. running stable today for over 5 hours gaming, benchmarking, stress testing and monitoring temps. It's a good board except for some vdroop on CPU and VRM does get warm when you overclock and put an avx load on it.

Has been stable at 4.7ghz using 1.26 volts with average 8700k silicon lottery.

Ram running stable at xmp 3200.


----------



## urs1

*The VRM on GB Gaming 7 is getting hot.*
Need some help please.
The processor was dellided with Thermal Grizzly Kryonaut.

At 4800 with AVX 4700
90 C VRM
Northbridge (PCH) 60 C
Uses only 190 W
Slightly under 1.3V in maximum Prime 95

While on AsRock K6 same settings
47 C VRM
250W-270W
1.42v LLC 2

On GB Gaming 7 with 4900 MHz 4600 AVX
80 C VRM and goes down to 70 when lower usage.
The motherboard 27-28 C,
PCH 45 C

Case R4 Define Window, cooler Mugen 5 rev B 300-1200 + another 300-1200 for push pull.

*What can be done ?* (it seems they have some small and narrow radiators unlike the K6)
Are these normal and safe temperatures on GB Gaming 7 for the VRM ?

I was hoping for 5 GHz 4.8 AVX.

https://techreport.com/review/32669/gigabyte-z370-aorus-gaming-7-motherboard-reviewed/5

*"the board will begin throttling the CPU because of VRM overtemperature protections at 135° C"*


----------



## ehume

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *urs1*
> 
> *The VRM on GB Gaming 7 is getting hot.*
> Need some help please.
> The processor was dellided with Thermal Grizzly Kryonaut.
> 
> At 4800 with AVX 4700
> 90 C VRM
> Northbridge (PCH) 60 C
> Uses only 190 W
> Slightly under 1.3V in maximum Prime 95
> 
> While on AsRock K6 same settings
> 47 C VRM
> 250W-270W
> 1.42v LLC 2
> 
> On GB Gaming 7 with 4900 MHz 4600 AVX
> 80 C VRM and goes down to 70 when the voltage drops at maximum utilization.
> The motherboard 27-28 C,
> PCH 45 C
> 
> Case R4 Define Window, cooler Mugen 5 rev B 300-1200 + another 300-1200 for push pull.
> 
> *What can be done ?* (it seems they have some small and narrow radiators unlike the K6)
> Are these normal and safe temperatures on GB Gaming 7 for the VRM ?
> 
> I was hoping for 5 GHz 4.8 AVX.
> 
> https://techreport.com/review/32669/gigabyte-z370-aorus-gaming-7-motherboard-reviewed/5
> 
> *"the board will begin throttling the CPU because of VRM overtemperature protections at 135° C"*


Have you tightened the heatsinks on your VRM's?


----------



## urs1

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ehume*
> 
> Have you tightened the heatsinks on your VRM's?


No.

I don't have proper screwdrivers to do that, and it would result in visible marks on the motherboard.
That means i would lose all warranty if i do that.

What screwdrivers should be used ?
If i send the motherboard to GB to fix it would they do it ?


----------



## AlphaC

If you're afraid to tighten screws. just RMA it. Clearly you received a bad sample.

APEX closeups

http://quasarzone.co.kr/bbs/board.php?bo_table=qc_qsz&wr_id=118557

Ultra Gaming (this board has been covered so many times...)
http://quasarzone.co.kr/bbs/board.php?bo_table=qc_qsz&wr_id=118347

Z370N-WIFI review


Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!






http://www.bit-tech.net/reviews/tech/motherboards/gigabyte-z370n-wifi-review/1/

Xfastest reviewer needs his eyes checked, this Z370-A is using Vishay parts but the review reads 4c09+4c06



Spoiler: memory VRM theory validated






https://news.xfastest.com/review/43491/asus-prime-z370-a/


----------



## asdkj1740

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *urs1*
> 
> No.
> 
> I don't have proper screwdrivers to do that, and it would result in visible marks on the motherboard.
> That means i would lose all warranty if i do that.
> 
> What screwdrivers should be used ?
> If i send the motherboard to GB to fix it would they do it ?


lmao.

return to the retailer and exchange for a new one.


----------



## urs1

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *asdkj1740*
> 
> lmao.
> 
> return to the retailer and exchange for a new one.


Bought it using my company not with my name, so i can't return it in 14 days without questions. (according to legislation here)

I could accuse them the VRM is overheating and the screws are not tight and the 'thermal pads are crap' and try to get a replacement.

But even if i get another board i could get same problems ?
So isn't it better if they try to fix it ? Or would they ruin the motherboard altogether ...


----------



## asdkj1740

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *urs1*
> 
> Bought it using my company not with my name, so i can't return it in 14 days without questions. (according to legislation here)
> 
> I could accuse them the VRM is overheating and the screws are not tight and the 'thermal pads are crap' and try to get a replacement.
> 
> But even if i get another board i could get same problems ?
> So isn't it better if they try to fix it ? Or would they ruin the motherboard altogether ...


why dont you just get a screwdriver and tighten them by yourself


----------



## urs1

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *asdkj1740*
> 
> why dont you just get a screwdriver and tighten them by yourself


It needs a special screwdriver, i don't have, can you point a link to such a screwdriver ?

If you don't use a specific screwdriver you can leave marks and you lose the warranty.


----------



## roybotnik

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *urs1*
> 
> It needs a special screwdriver, i don't have, can you point a link to such a screwdriver ?
> 
> If you don't use a specific screwdriver you can leave marks and you lose the warranty.


? Unless there's something weird with your board, it's just a phillips screw.. I didn't leave any marks on them when tightening.


----------



## roybotnik

I've been playing around with fixed and dynamic voltage on my Aorus Z370 Gaming 7, primarily to try and come up with something that allows me to run at LLC lower than 'Turbo' but haven't had much luck. I don't like this high LLC since I'm concerned with overshoot when load drops. DVID is pretty tough to use... If you adjust the IA cores AC/DC load line you can use a positive offset with somewhat predictable results. However it seems like the external load line needs to be adjusted as well, and it really skews the idle voltage regardless of what LLC level you use.

I'm using the XTU benchmark because it's been giving me some interesting results... With a fixed voltage and turbo LLC, I hear quite a bit of what sounds like coil whine coming from the board in 1 second intervals (I guess this test runs some AVX code in intervals). The strange thing I've noticed is that the benchmark score always drops over consecutive runs. I'll start off at ~2760, and if I run the test a few times over the course of 10-15 mins, it will drop by 100 points or more. This also applies if I run XTU bench when I start my machine, use it for a while, then run it again. I make sure there isn't anything additional running in the background of course.

I don't know if this is just a known thing with XTU but it seems pretty strange. It'll also pretty much instantly knock out the ITE8686E if using turbo LLC, but it doesn't seem to do it as consistently with lower levels. The whine isn't as loud when using DVID and lower LLC too.

Also of note, my power draw from the wall is about 135W idle (with C-states disabled, monitor included in that). When running the bench, the draw will generally go up to 333W, but I've seen it spike to 380W....

Edit: This is when running between 1.3-1.35V at 5.0GHZ. Max temps are 65C


----------



## skyhawk21

What stress test program are you running and for how long???

On gaming 5 from gigabyte with lower quality vrm, 76c is max I have seen for vrm mos temp sensor reading in hwinfo64. That's after using system for 5 hours @ 4.7ghz avx and running realbench stress test for 30 minutes after system has been on and warmed up using a 1080 inside.

Pch got up to 40-45c

Only when heavy avx load occurs for a set period of time does vrm temp climb but it should level out if heat sinks work correctly. Funny thing is there is no way motherboard is 76c to the touch behind it or by vrm heatsinks on top of it. With 3 120mm fans moving air in and out of my case, there is cool ambient air going in and warm air leaving but not HOT air.

Hell CPU temps get up to 83c but touch the copper pipes or heat sink and it's only warm, touch CPU bracket and motherboard and it's only warm to touch. I think intel and there temp readings are way off. I can stress system to its knees, rip cooler off and CPU is not even hot after power down... the only thing that does ok in temps and u can actually physically feel it is backplate of a 1080 which touches gpu vrm son back of card. That thing can cook an egg at full load. CPU, motherboard, heat sinks always warm and not burning hot to touch..

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *urs1*
> 
> *The VRM on GB Gaming 7 is getting hot.*
> Need some help please.
> The processor was dellided with Thermal Grizzly Kryonaut.
> 
> At 4800 with AVX 4700
> 90 C VRM
> Northbridge (PCH) 60 C
> Uses only 190 W
> Slightly under 1.3V in maximum Prime 95
> 
> While on AsRock K6 same settings
> 47 C VRM
> 250W-270W
> 1.42v LLC 2
> 
> On GB Gaming 7 with 4900 MHz 4600 AVX
> 80 C VRM and goes down to 70 when lower usage.
> The motherboard 27-28 C,
> PCH 45 C
> 
> Case R4 Define Window, cooler Mugen 5 rev B 300-1200 + another 300-1200 for push pull.
> 
> *What can be done ?* (it seems they have some small and narrow radiators unlike the K6)
> Are these normal and safe temperatures on GB Gaming 7 for the VRM ?
> 
> I was hoping for 5 GHz 4.8 AVX.
> 
> https://techreport.com/review/32669/gigabyte-z370-aorus-gaming-7-motherboard-reviewed/5
> 
> *"the board will begin throttling the CPU because of VRM overtemperature protections at 135° C"*


----------



## asdkj1740

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *urs1*
> 
> It needs a special screwdriver, i don't have, can you point a link to such a screwdriver ?
> 
> If you don't use a specific screwdriver you can leave marks and you lose the warranty.


buy a pack of screws, like ifixit, then you are good to go.
no warranty there, no sticker on the screws, unless you scratch some serious marks on the pcb, your warranty is still vaild.


----------



## jamini

A little bit off topic... Would you recommend the hot (no pun intended







) Z370 AORUS Ultra Gaming with a locked i7-8700?


----------



## Robilar

What kind of temps can we expect on the Aorus Gaming 7 VRM's under load? Mine never go above mid 40's under OCCT no matter how many hours I run it. This is on the VRM MOS sensor in HWInfo64. Mind you I have a ton of airflow in my case and I tightened the cooler screws before installing.


----------



## ZaknafeinGR

@Jamini sure, the locked 8700 is a lot easier on the VRMs, nowhere near the 180w+ an overclocked 8700K will ask for.

@Robilar VRM temps very much depend on the current being pushed.... you don't mention frequency / vcore so no way to give you a figure. Mid 40s sounds low, unless you're running stock. Also OCCT has 2 different tests, try the Linpack with AVX enabled, I'd expect them to be higher.


----------



## Robilar

I'm running at 4.7 at 1.2 vcore. I've run the AVX test, the temps don't vary much.

I assume if I scaled up closer to 5ghz the temps would increase? Frankly beyond benching purposes, I am fine with 4.7 day to day. Especially compared to the 4ghz I was able to sustain with my 6800k.


----------



## ZaknafeinGR

Yes, they would, but I don't think they'd be an issue, if your chip allows it (ie if it doesn't need 1.35v+ for 5 GHz). I wouldn't worry about them, especially since you've tightened the heatsink on top of them and it seems to be working wonders. Personally I'm fine as long as it's below 80 under full AVX load (which I never do, but I test so if some time later I run BOINC or decide to encode a video or something, I know it won't be a problem). Same for the CPU itself, if it's a good 20+ degrees away from its throttling point, I'm not going to fuss over a few degrees if they bring me higher clocks.


----------



## roybotnik

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Robilar*
> 
> What kind of temps can we expect on the Aorus Gaming 7 VRM's under load? Mine never go above mid 40's under OCCT no matter how many hours I run it. This is on the VRM MOS sensor in HWInfo64. Mind you I have a ton of airflow in my case and I tightened the cooler screws before installing.


My VRMs read 50-60C on the gaming 7 before the ITE8686E bugs out and I can't see them anymore








. I hope Gigabyte fixes that at some point because I can not figure out what triggers it...


----------



## Robilar

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *roybotnik*
> 
> My VRMs read 50-60C on the gaming 7 before the ITE8686E bugs out and I can't see them anymore
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> . I hope Gigabyte fixes that at some point because I can not figure out what triggers it...


what are you running your CPU at?

Admittedly, I am only running a modest overclock but the VRM temps seem quite tame on this board.


----------



## GreedyMuffin

I went almost all out and got a ASUS Z370 HERO X.. I guess the VRMs on this motherboard is good?


----------



## bl4ckdot

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *GreedyMuffin*
> 
> I went almost all out and got a ASUS Z370 HERO X.. I guess the VRMs on this motherboard is good?


Yes


----------



## UnknownSoldier

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *GreedyMuffin*
> 
> I went almost all out and got a ASUS Z370 HERO X.. I guess the VRMs on this motherboard is good?


That's what I ended up eventually doing. When it came down to it, I realized my choices for a Z370 mobo came down to choosing which board had the least amount of reported problems. I think the only complaint I've seen about the Hero is a [maybe] ever so slightly higher voltage requirement.


----------



## pastorx

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *roybotnik*
> 
> My VRMs read 50-60C on the gaming 7 before the ITE8686E bugs out and I can't see them anymore
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> . I hope Gigabyte fixes that at some point because I can not figure out what triggers it...


ITE8686E bugs, how can that happen?


----------



## pastorx

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kqpahv*
> 
> Hey there !
> 
> So I updated the bios today on my Aorus Gaming 7 and now the VRM sensor disappears after hitting 80C.
> 
> There is most likeley a problem with that sensor !
> 
> My results were from small FTT, 5.3Ghz, AVX offset 4.
> 
> The CPU is now delidded but wasnt at that point.
> I'm not using any additional cooling but there is some airflow coming from my CPU air cooler. I am running it on a open test bed @ 19-20c ambient.
> 
> What made my alarm bells ring with your post was the fact that the small VRM fan will start spinning over 90c and it's impossible to trigger it anywhere else but prime95. Even then it takes atleast 10-15 minutes to reach 90C.
> 
> This was also mentioned in Tiny Tom Logan review:
> 
> https://youtu.be/gTSt8sPGmMQ?t=117


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *roybotnik*
> 
> My VRMs read 50-60C on the gaming 7 before the ITE8686E bugs out and I can't see them anymore
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> . I hope Gigabyte fixes that at some point because I can not figure out what triggers it...


is this your case?


----------



## AlphaC

https://www.tweaktown.com/reviews/8460/gigabyte-z370-aorus-gaming-5-motherboard-review/index10.html

Seems Steven's Gaming 5 didn't produce as good a result as the Chinese site's and Gecid

It's hotter than the Pro Carbon from the back of the board

How not to test VRM temp:
https://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/MSI/Z370_GAMING_PRO_CARBON_AC/14.html


Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!



3.9 - 4.1 GHz CPU, 3670 MHz Memory
CPU Voltage: 1.105 V
DRAM Voltage: 1.36 V
Idle Power: 4 W
Load Power: 64 W
VRM Temperature: 35.7°C
Chipset Temperature: 33.4°C



Asus Z370 TUF Pro


http://playwares.com/userreview/55875008

Asus TUF Plus

Quote:


> The cooling system of the board in question consists of two main aluminum radiators: one carries out heat removal from the Intel Z370 chipset, while the second covers the elements of the processor's power supply subsystem. During the testing, the following temperature indicators were recorded:
> 
> the cooling fan of the chipset is 34 ° C (when overclocked - 34.1 ° C);
> the cooling coil of the elements of the processor's power supply subsystem is 42.3 ° C (at overclocking - 47.8 ° C);
> the throttles - 61,9 ° C (when overclocked - 72,3 ° C).


https://ru.gecid.com/mboard/asus_tuf_z370-plus_gaming/
(4.9GHz @ 1.2V in unknown current load - AIDA64 FPU)

TUF Plus at hwbattle website


Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!






http://www.hwbattle.com/bbs/board.php?bo_table=review&wr_id=5234

For reference, the STRIX-E with 5GHz @ 1.264V


Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!



The cooling system consists of three main aluminum radiators: one removes heat from the Intel Z370 chipset, while the other two cover the elements of the processor's power supply subsystem. During the testing, the following temperature indicators were recorded:

the cooling heatsink of the chipset is 32.5 ° C (when overclocked - 33.7 ° C);
the upper cooler for cooling the elements of the processor's power supply subsystem is 44 ° C (when overclocked, 53.5 ° C);
side cooling radiator for the elements of the processor power subsystem - 44.8 ° C (when overclocked - 54.6 ° C);
chokes - 56,6 ° C (when overclocked - 72,7 ° C).



STRIX-F with 5GHz @1.408V ... this is probably the old BIOS with vdroop


Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!



The cooling system of the board in question consists of three main aluminum radiators. During the testing, the following temperature indicators were recorded:

radiator cooling chipset - 32.2 ° C (when overclocked - 32.5 ° C);
the upper radiator cooling elements of the power supply system - 41 ° C (when overclocked - 47.1 ° C);
the lower radiator for cooling the elements of the power subsystem is 44.5 ° C (when overclocked - 49.3 ° C);
the chokes of the power subsystem are 52.2 ° C (in the case of overclocking - 62 ° C).



Z370 Gaming 5 result with 5GHz @ 1.236V


Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!



The cooling system consists of three main aluminum radiators: one removes heat from the Intel Z370 chipset, while the other two cover the elements of the processor's power supply subsystem. During the testing, the following temperature indicators were recorded:

the cooling heatsink of the chipset is 35.3 ° C (when overclocked - 35.6 ° C);
the upper cooler for cooling the elements of the processor's power supply subsystem is 41.8 ° C (at acceleration - 48.2 ° C);
The lateral radiator for cooling the elements of the processor's power supply subsystem is 40.8 ° C (at overclocking - 46.1 ° C);
chokes - 47,5 ° C (at overclocking - 58,1 ° C).



Z370 Ultra Gaming with 4.9GHz @1.284V


Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!



The cooling system consists of three main aluminum radiators: one removes heat from the Intel Z370 chipset, while the other two cover the elements of the processor's power supply subsystem. During the testing, the following temperature indicators were recorded:

radiator cooling chipset - 31.7 ° C (when overclocked - 32.6 ° C);
the upper cooler for cooling the elements of the processor's power supply subsystem is 37.1 ° C (when overclocked - 51.6 ° C);
the lower cooler for cooling the elements of the processor's power supply subsystem is 43.2 ° C (when overclocked, 62.7 ° C);
chokes - 47.5 ° C (when overclocked - 72.5 ° C).


----------



## pastorx

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AlphaC*
> 
> https://www.tweaktown.com/reviews/8460/gigabyte-z370-aorus-gaming-5-motherboard-review/index10.html
> 
> Seems Steven's Gaming 5 didn't produce as good a result as the Chinese site's and Gecid
> 
> It's hotter than the Pro Carbon from the back of the board
> 
> How not to test VRM temp:
> https://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/MSI/Z370_GAMING_PRO_CARBON_AC/14.html
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!
> 
> 
> 
> 3.9 - 4.1 GHz CPU, 3670 MHz Memory
> CPU Voltage: 1.105 V
> DRAM Voltage: 1.36 V
> Idle Power: 4 W
> Load Power: 64 W
> VRM Temperature: 35.7°C
> Chipset Temperature: 33.4°C
> 
> 
> 
> Asus Z370 TUF Pro
> 
> 
> http://playwares.com/userreview/55875008
> 
> Asus TUF Plus
> 
> https://ru.gecid.com/mboard/asus_tuf_z370-plus_gaming/
> (4.9GHz @ 1.2V in unknown current load - AIDA64 FPU)
> 
> For reference, the STRIX-E with 5GHz @ 1.264V
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!
> 
> 
> 
> The cooling system consists of three main aluminum radiators: one removes heat from the Intel Z370 chipset, while the other two cover the elements of the processor's power supply subsystem. During the testing, the following temperature indicators were recorded:
> 
> the cooling heatsink of the chipset is 32.5 ° C (when overclocked - 33.7 ° C);
> the upper cooler for cooling the elements of the processor's power supply subsystem is 44 ° C (when overclocked, 53.5 ° C);
> side cooling radiator for the elements of the processor power subsystem - 44.8 ° C (when overclocked - 54.6 ° C);
> chokes - 56,6 ° C (when overclocked - 72,7 ° C).
> 
> 
> 
> STRIX-F with 5GHz @1.408V ... this is probably the old BIOS with vdroop
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!
> 
> 
> 
> The cooling system of the board in question consists of three main aluminum radiators. During the testing, the following temperature indicators were recorded:
> 
> radiator cooling chipset - 32.2 ° C (when overclocked - 32.5 ° C);
> the upper radiator cooling elements of the power supply system - 41 ° C (when overclocked - 47.1 ° C);
> the lower radiator for cooling the elements of the power subsystem is 44.5 ° C (when overclocked - 49.3 ° C);
> the chokes of the power subsystem are 52.2 ° C (in the case of overclocking - 62 ° C).
> 
> 
> 
> Z370 Gaming 5 result with 5GHz @ 1.236V
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!
> 
> 
> 
> The cooling system consists of three main aluminum radiators: one removes heat from the Intel Z370 chipset, while the other two cover the elements of the processor's power supply subsystem. During the testing, the following temperature indicators were recorded:
> 
> the cooling heatsink of the chipset is 35.3 ° C (when overclocked - 35.6 ° C);
> the upper cooler for cooling the elements of the processor's power supply subsystem is 41.8 ° C (at acceleration - 48.2 ° C);
> The lateral radiator for cooling the elements of the processor's power supply subsystem is 40.8 ° C (at overclocking - 46.1 ° C);
> chokes - 47,5 ° C (at overclocking - 58,1 ° C).
> 
> 
> 
> Z370 Ultra Gaming with 4.9GHz @1.284V
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!
> 
> 
> 
> The cooling system consists of three main aluminum radiators: one removes heat from the Intel Z370 chipset, while the other two cover the elements of the processor's power supply subsystem. During the testing, the following temperature indicators were recorded:
> 
> radiator cooling chipset - 31.7 ° C (when overclocked - 32.6 ° C);
> the upper cooler for cooling the elements of the processor's power supply subsystem is 37.1 ° C (when overclocked - 51.6 ° C);
> the lower cooler for cooling the elements of the processor's power supply subsystem is 43.2 ° C (when overclocked, 62.7 ° C);
> chokes - 47.5 ° C (when overclocked - 72.5 ° C).


Then who is right? most sites show better temperatures in gaming 5 than in tweaktown
Or is it the same as with gaming 7, that there are some that get hotter because of heatsinks? or just a faulty model as you said earlier?


----------



## AlphaC

One thing that is for sure is the Gaming 5 had consistent results between gecid + the Chinese site vs the STRIX boards. It is unclear if the reviewers measured from the back of the board. Steven (tweaktown) measured from the back and front.

The MSI Pro Carbon has had a BIOS update (dated October 30) since the Chinese review. Techreport noted the poor heatsink design for the left side heatsink (i.e. the main CPU VRM section as seen on https://techreport.com/review/32836/msi-z370-gaming-pro-carbon-ac-motherboard-reviewed).

Patch notes for the MSI BIOS update:
Quote:


> - Fix throttling issue when use 8700 cpu to run Prime95 burning test.
> - Improve memory compatibility.
> - Enhance Game boost function.
> - Fix monitor is not able to turn on after resume from S3 mode via lan wake up event.
> - Update Intel ME for security vulnerabilities


A possible explanation is the amount of airflow. Gigabyte's RGB heatsink solution is more decorative than functional, even if it does have a heatpipe. The fin area is covered by the RGB. IMHO They probably should have just added the LEDs on the side of the heatsink and stylized the heatsink such that RGB light reflects more prominently.


----------



## pastorx

very true, anyway the results are still positive,







textual words from tweaktown
{The Z370 AORUS Gaming 5's thermal performance is acceptable. There are many VRMs out there with similar configurations; 8 phases doubled by doubling component count on each driver, and they perform mostly the same depending on cooling.}


----------



## asdkj1740

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AlphaC*
> 
> https://www.tweaktown.com/reviews/8460/gigabyte-z370-aorus-gaming-5-motherboard-review/index10.html
> 
> Seems Steven's Gaming 5 didn't produce as good a result as the Chinese site's and Gecid
> 
> It's hotter than the Pro Carbon from the back of the board


um...this gaming 5, as i said, has the same vrm design to its lower end mobos.
same cpu controller, same mosfets, same drivers (two external with 2 integrated for the vcore and 2 external with 1 integrated for the igpu).
the differences are that two vcore drivers are located differently compared to ultra gaming/gaming3/hd3p, and there are obviously having more inductors.
i highly doubt the gaming 5 is doubled 8 phases vcore design.

if this gaming 5 can draw much higher power than its lower end mobos, then this means vrm cooling really matters.

also, the bios are certainly different on gaming 5 and its lower end mobos, because the core current limit (amps) settings on the gaming 5 bios are now adjustable, compared to its ultra gmaing(hd3p) f5/f4 bios with greyed out unadjustable 160w (locked) core current limit amps settings.
f6 bios for ultra gaming is out now, i dont know whether this current max settings is now be able to tweak or not.
https://www.tweaktown.com/image.php?image=imagescdn.tweaktown.com/content/8/4/8460_39_gigabyte-z370-aorus-gaming-5-motherboard-review_full.png


----------



## asdkj1740

MSI Z370I GAMING PRO CARBON AC
https://www.chiphell.com/thread-1801408-1-1.html

8pin connector, 8 inductors for vcore and igpu.
cpu contorller is uP9508Q, total 8 phases are all with QM3816N.

it said there are three up1961s doublers on the back of the pcb. there are two different little ic on the back of the pcb too (seem to be up1962 single phase driver).
therefore it seems to be 3+2 design and doubled to 6+2.


----------



## AlphaC

QM3816N
http://www.ubiq-semi.com/files/1875/e4b0aa1e-92e0-11e7-881a-c4cbaf091d7a

1.9mΩ RDS(on) for low side
very high rise time of 37.7 ns...

high side limit supposedly 32A @100°C T_case

edit: punching the numbers it seems this is roughly on par with a Tomahawk/Krait with the caveat you must cool the VRM extensively. The VRM heatsink is small so that doesn't help. Without accounting for the VRM heatsink I would say you could should only push about 160W through it even if the overall efficiency is higher (due to the low side fet on state resistance) because the high side fet will heat up faster with 6 mosfets used instead of 8.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *asdkj1740*
> 
> um...this gaming 5, as i said, has the same vrm design to its lower end mobos.
> same cpu controller, same mosfets, same drivers (two external with 2 integrated for the vcore and 2 external with 1 integrated for the igpu).
> the differences are that two vcore drivers are located differently compared to ultra gaming/gaming3/hd3p, and there are obviously having more inductors.
> i highly doubt the gaming 5 is doubled 8 phases vcore design.
> 
> if this gaming 5 can draw much higher power than its lower end mobos, then this means vrm cooling really matters.
> 
> also, the bios are certainly different on gaming 5 and its lower end mobos, because the core current limit (amps) settings on the gaming 5 bios are now adjustable, compared to its ultra gmaing(hd3p) f5/f4 bios with greyed out unadjustable 160w (locked) core current limit amps settings.
> f6 bios for ultra gaming is out now, i dont know whether this current max settings is now be able to tweak or not.
> https://www.tweaktown.com/image.php?image=imagescdn.tweaktown.com/content/8/4/8460_39_gigabyte-z370-aorus-gaming-5-motherboard-review_full.png


I think at the end of the day the biggest differentiation is the use of one set of mosfets per inductor, more output capacitance, a heatpiped heatsink, and use of the ISL6225 dual driver (shoot through protection)

200A is the rough package limit on the Strix boards (25A x 8 sets of mosfets) when in actuality it's closer to 20A per set (at 70°C), which is ~160A as well.


----------



## pastorx

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AlphaC*
> 
> QM3816N
> http://www.ubiq-semi.com/files/1875/e4b0aa1e-92e0-11e7-881a-c4cbaf091d7a
> 
> 1.9mΩ RDS(on) for low side
> very high rise time of 37.7 ns...
> 
> high side limit supposedly 32A @100°C T_case
> 
> edit: punching the numbers it seems this is roughly on par with a Tomahawk/Krait with the caveat you must cool the VRM extensively. The VRM heatsink is small so that doesn't help. Without accounting for the VRM heatsink I would say you could should only push about 160W through it even if the overall efficiency is higher (due to the low side fet on state resistance) because the high side fet will heat up faster with 6 mosfets used instead of 8.
> I think at the end of the day the biggest differentiation is the use of one set of mosfets per inductor, more output capacitance, a heatpiped heatsink, and use of the ISL6225 dual driver (shoot through protection)
> 
> 200A is the rough package limit on the Strix boards (25A x 8 sets of mosfets) when in actuality it's closer to 20A per set (at 70°C), which is ~160A as well.


Maybe I'm paranoid, sorry im waiting a gigabyte aorus gaming 5 + i7 8700k yet, and all these things confuse me. The most I plan to get is 4.7ghz oc.
Any conclusion about the aorus gaming 5, compared to the Z370-A? how many watts it is capable of? since we know it is superior to the strix E / F. All say that in effect gaming 5 has doubled 8 phases vcore design, I do not understand why the doubt.

_the gaming 5 cost me about 160$,


----------



## pastorx

There are contradictions also in other motherboard reviews for example the taichi, in tweaktown it throws a good temperatures, but in tomshardware it is not like that, although the temperatures improved a bit in future bios updates, but even higher than in Tweaktown review.

Tweaktown>
{ The Z370 Taichi produced excellent VRM temperature results, and that isn't very surprising as the 60A inductors, dual N-channel FETs, and new Intersil PWM work together in harmony. Temperatures on the front were always higher than on the rear of the motherboard, which means that the motherboard is being cooled well. Quality in the VRM section of the motherboard is superb}

Read more: https://www.tweaktown.com/reviews/8381/asrock-z370-taichi-motherboard-review/index10.html

Tomshardware
{Heat problems are the first mark against the Taichi, followed by excessive power consumption and overclocking weaknesses. This combination of factors almost makes it look like the power section was lifted from the Z270 Taichi, which was optimized for four-core rather than six-core CPUs. And while some of these issues might be minimized in future firmware revisions, we're not ready to label this one "fully acceptable" to qualify for our Approved award. And if it can't get over that hurdle, the value-oriented "Recommended" award would require a vaulting pole. We didn't find one in the installation kit.}

Read more: http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/asrock-z370-taichi-intel-coffee-lake-atx-motherboard,5279-4.html


----------



## AlphaC

Who do you trust more? 8pack, Siliconlottery, and Steven from tweaktown or Tom's hardware? The mosfets used along with the heatsink design has been proven on other platforms.

Also note hardwareluxx user results.

SiliconLottery binning stats for i7-8700k
As of 12/01/17, the top 16% of tested 8700Ks were able to hit 5.2GHz or greater. (AVX Offset 2 ; < 1.425V Vcore)
As of 12/01/17, the top 43% of tested 8700Ks were able to hit 5.1GHz or greater. (AVX offset 2 ; < 1.412V Vcore)
As of 12/01/17, the top 72% of tested 8700Ks were able to hit 5.0GHz or greater. (AVX offset 2 ; < 1.40V Vcore)
As of 12/01/17, the top 99% of tested 8700Ks were able to hit 4.9GHz or greater. (AVX offset 2 ; < 1.387V Vcore)

and for i5-8600k
As of 12/01/17, the top 13% of tested 8600Ks were able to hit 5.3GHz or greater. (AVX offset 2, < 1.437V Vcore)
As of 12/01/17, the top 38% of tested 8600Ks were able to hit 5.2GHz or greater. (AVX offset 2, < 1.425V Vcore)
As of 12/01/17, the top 65% of tested 8600Ks were able to hit 5.1GHz or greater. (AVX offset 2, < 1.412V Vcore)
As of 12/01/17, the top 84% of tested 8600Ks were able to hit 5.0GHz or greater. (AVX offset 2, < 1.40V Vcore)
As of 12/01/17, the top 98% of tested 8600Ks were able to hit 4.9GHz or greater. (AVX offset 2, < 1.387V Vcore)


----------



## skyhawk21

Gaming 5 will easily overclock 8700k to 4.7ghz and run it cool in ventilated case.

Only issue is vdroop on vcore and rails or a bad sensor that glitches giving the voltage readings... they fluctuate all voltages every second going up and down from what's set in bios even with llc on max.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *pastorx*
> 
> Maybe I'm paranoid, sorry im waiting a gigabyte aorus gaming 5 + i7 8700k yet, and all these things confuse me. The most I plan to get is 4.7ghz oc.
> Any conclusion about the aorus gaming 5, compared to the Z370-A? how many watts it is capable of? since we know it is superior to the strix E / F. All say that in effect gaming 5 has doubled 8 phases vcore design, I do not understand why the doubt.
> 
> _the gaming 5 cost me about 160$,


----------



## Leoplate25

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AlphaC*
> 
> Who do you trust more? 8pack, Siliconlottery, and Steven from tweaktown or Tom's hardware? The mosfets used along with the heatsink design has been proven on other platforms.
> 
> Also note hardwareluxx user results.


Hi! Then i'm gonna be fine with the Z370 Aorus Gaming 5 and a non-K 8700? I have a Thermaltake Versa H34 and 3 TT Riing 12mm fans, two on top of the motherboard and one in the back of the case. What do you think about it? Which temps will i have? (Aprox.) Thanks and i don't know anything about VRM's, hehe!









24650974_10214924884381010_1301688159_o.jpg 81k .jpg file


----------



## AlphaC

@ Leoplate25 : About 40°C , see the stock load result from Steven's review
https://www.tweaktown.com/reviews/8460/gigabyte-z370-aorus-gaming-5-motherboard-review/index10.html

Without case airflow you'd get higher temps inline with playwares (~70°C in AVX2 Prime95) or the PC DIY Online chinese site (mirrored at http://tech.ifeng.com/a/20171025/44728408_0.shtml ~46°C) , or about 50°C at inductors (the squares with a "P" on them) per gecid (https://ru.gecid.com/mboard/gigabyte_z370_aorus_gaming_5/).

This thread is only particularly relevant to unlocked CPUs with AVX loads. If you are using a locked CPU I would focus more on featureset (real features such as post code LED , audio solution, LAN/wifi, dual BIOs, etc. not aesthetic features). You will find that most likely the best ones without regard for VRM are likely the boards such as Asrock Z370 Extreme4 (~$120-140), MSI Z370 SLI PLUS (~$120-130).

MSI Z370 Pc Pro (Confirmation)
Sinopower SM4337 & SM4503
https://www.hardwareinside.de/msi-z370-pc-pro-mainboard-im-test-29973/6/


----------



## Leoplate25

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AlphaC*
> 
> @ Leoplate25 : About 40°C , see the stock load result from Steven's review
> https://www.tweaktown.com/reviews/8460/gigabyte-z370-aorus-gaming-5-motherboard-review/index10.html
> 
> Without case airflow you'd get higher temps inline with playwares (~70°C in AVX2 Prime95) or the PC DIY Online chinese site (mirrored at http://tech.ifeng.com/a/20171025/44728408_0.shtml ~46°C) , or about 50°C at inductors (the squares with a "P" on them) per gecid (https://ru.gecid.com/mboard/gigabyte_z370_aorus_gaming_5/).
> 
> This thread is only particularly relevant to unlocked CPUs with AVX loads. If you are using a locked CPU I would focus more on featureset (real features such as post code LED , audio solution, LAN/wifi, dual BIOs, etc. not aesthetic features). You will find that most likely the best ones without regard for VRM are likely the boards such as Asrock Z370 Extreme4 (~$120-140), MSI Z370 SLI PLUS (~$120-130).


The only problem is i already bought the motherboard and i'm waiting for my friend to bring me the i7-8700. But if i'm going to reach 40 degrees C it's ok, isn't it? Thank you again!


----------



## pastorx

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *skyhawk21*
> 
> Gaming 5 will easily overclock 8700k to 4.7ghz and run it cool in ventilated case.
> 
> Only issue is vdroop on vcore and rails or a bad sensor that glitches giving the voltage readings... they fluctuate all voltages every second going up and down from what's set in bios even with llc on max.


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Leoplate25*
> 
> The only problem is i already bought the motherboard and i'm waiting for my friend to bring me the i7-8700. But if i'm going to reach 40 degrees C it's ok, isn't it? Thank you again!


Gaming 5 its fine with moderate OC. I I'm waiting mine with i7 8700k...


----------



## pastorx

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *roybotnik*
> 
> Does anyone else have problems with the ITE8686E bugging out on the Gigabyte Gaming 7? Mine always does whenever I put the processor under heavy load. It's really annoying because the second IO chip gets the CPU temp from it, so once it happens, any fans controlled by the second chip get stuck at the last speeds they were running at. It also makes it so I can't see VRM temps once it happens.
> 
> Board has been excellent otherwise, aside from this one issue. I also wish that Gigabyte would expose more options in the UEFI.. like VRM phase control and switching frequency. For such sturdy board hardware it would be nice to have for testing.


@skyhawk21
Have you had any problems like this in your aorus gaming 5? Can you monitor the vrm temperatures at any time?? I hope that only happens in the gaming 7...


----------



## skyhawk21

Sensor works ok for readings and stays working when vrm temp goes up.

Highest in my system was 76c for vrm temp and sensor still worked...

However, sensor readings show fluctuating voltages for everything like vdroop every second.

Also fans on that sensor stop working for a second and show 0 rpm then work again (system fans). Doesn't happen all the time though.

Kind of worrisome but system is stable for now overclocked to 4.7ghz with xmp 3200 ram.

Msi z370 board I tried did not have funny sensor or voltage readings. It did however throttle CPU since vrm temps went crazy high in a matter of seconds. Had to return.

On the fence about gaming 5 because of the every second fluctuating voltages off this s wacko sensor, don't know if it's truly the motherboard silicon or stupid faulty sensor, but I guess if it was a bad board, it wouldn't work.. and it works, so...

Good luck!
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *pastorx*
> 
> @skyhawk21
> Have you had any problems like this in your aorus gaming 5? Can you monitor the vrm temperatures at any time?? I hope that only happens in the gaming 7...


----------



## ZaknafeinGR

@Leoplate25 You have nothing to worry about with the Gaming 5 and a locked 8700.

@pastorx Never had an issue with the VRM temps, the reading goes up or down in line with the load placed on the CPU and the current drawn. Vcore reading on the other hand is all over the place, while the 8792E Vcore reading seems much more reliable. Here's a screenshot for comparison:


----------



## pastorx

@skyhawk21
*Could it be a PSU failure?*
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ZaknafeinGR*
> 
> @Leoplate25 You have nothing to worry about with the Gaming 5 and a locked 8700.
> 
> @pastorx Never had an issue with the VRM temps, the reading goes up or down in line with the load placed on the CPU and the current drawn. Vcore reading on the other hand is all over the place, while the 8792E Vcore reading seems much more reliable. Here's a screenshot for comparison:


@ZaknafeinGR
It is a relief to hear that there are no problems reading the temperature. *Does your sensor readings show fluctuating voltages for everything? I Dont understand why a voltage {Vcore} that should not vary, indicate different results in two different sensors {ITE8686E } {8792E} on the same card {Aorus gaming 5 }. or I'm wrong and it's common...
*

ITE8686E bugging, or it just is not accurate? or it's just vdrop?

thanks for your answers.


----------



## aliquiswe

I have from Komplett previous ordered:
1499 SEK, ASUS Z370 Strix F
1699 SEK, MSI Z370 Gaming M5

Of these I have a feeling the Strix F is the better board and the one I should have.

Proshop normally sell:
1690 SEK, ASRock Z370 Extreme4.

This weekend however they sell:
1799 SEK, ASRock Z370 K6

Should I order the K6 or not?
+ It's my understand it add M.2 key E, additional USB 3.1 gen 1, 2 more SATA slots (though usage of M.2 may remove 2 additional ones) and better VRM hardware together with the Extreme4, it also have one additional LAN port and their Fatal1ty software package and better looks over the Extreme4.
- But is the LLC issue still one and a permanent one and make it a worse choice? Also the K6 have even worse sound than the Extreme4 for some reason, and well it's still 300 SEK over the Strix F too.

Second LAN could be ok for NAS since I have no modern gigabit hub, front USB and Key E I guess isn't the most important things in the world. On other motherboards using the M.2 slots without SATA only seem to remove 2 SATA slots and 4 is ok I guess.

So... what should I do? =P

K6 FDPC5030SG is better than Extreme4 SM7341EH (more ampere and faster rise times it seems)? Does the good hardware matter if it .. doesn't deliver in actual usage? =P.


----------



## amd7674

Hi Guys...

I have Taichi and I'm very happy with it and I haven't noticed/experianced any overheating/VRM issues. I have non delided 8700k CPU (waiting forever to get paste







). I have push it easily to stable 4.9ghz on 1.3V. Max temps 86C when running realbench. I couldn't get stable 5Ghz (I only tried to go up to 1.36V, since I was reaching +91C already. I will continue once I get CPU delided. I'm using D15 air cooler.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RustySpoons*
> 
> My ITX is in a Phanteks Shift-X case, which doesn't have a front panel audio header, so fortunately for me working the wrong way round is actually beneficial to me


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *pastorx*
> 
> There are contradictions also in other motherboard reviews for example the taichi, in tweaktown it throws a good temperatures, but in tomshardware it is not like that, although the temperatures improved a bit in future bios updates, but even higher than in Tweaktown review.
> 
> Tweaktown>
> { The Z370 Taichi produced excellent VRM temperature results, and that isn't very surprising as the 60A inductors, dual N-channel FETs, and new Intersil PWM work together in harmony. Temperatures on the front were always higher than on the rear of the motherboard, which means that the motherboard is being cooled well. Quality in the VRM section of the motherboard is superb}
> 
> Read more: https://www.tweaktown.com/reviews/8381/asrock-z370-taichi-motherboard-review/index10.html
> 
> Tomshardware
> {Heat problems are the first mark against the Taichi, followed by excessive power consumption and overclocking weaknesses. This combination of factors almost makes it look like the power section was lifted from the Z270 Taichi, which was optimized for four-core rather than six-core CPUs. And while some of these issues might be minimized in future firmware revisions, we're not ready to label this one "fully acceptable" to qualify for our Approved award. And if it can't get over that hurdle, the value-oriented "Recommended" award would require a vaulting pole. We didn't find one in the installation kit.}
> 
> Read more: http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/asrock-z370-taichi-intel-coffee-lake-atx-motherboard,5279-4.html


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AlphaC*
> 
> Who do you trust more? 8pack, Siliconlottery, and Steven from tweaktown or Tom's hardware? The mosfets used along with the heatsink design has been proven on other platforms.
> 
> Also note hardwareluxx user results.
> 
> SiliconLottery binning stats for i7-8700k
> As of 12/01/17, the top 16% of tested 8700Ks were able to hit 5.2GHz or greater. (AVX Offset 2 ; < 1.425V Vcore)
> As of 12/01/17, the top 43% of tested 8700Ks were able to hit 5.1GHz or greater. (AVX offset 2 ; < 1.412V Vcore)
> As of 12/01/17, the top 72% of tested 8700Ks were able to hit 5.0GHz or greater. (AVX offset 2 ; < 1.40V Vcore)
> As of 12/01/17, the top 99% of tested 8700Ks were able to hit 4.9GHz or greater. (AVX offset 2 ; < 1.387V Vcore)
> 
> and for i5-8600k
> As of 12/01/17, the top 13% of tested 8600Ks were able to hit 5.3GHz or greater. (AVX offset 2, < 1.437V Vcore)
> As of 12/01/17, the top 38% of tested 8600Ks were able to hit 5.2GHz or greater. (AVX offset 2, < 1.425V Vcore)
> As of 12/01/17, the top 65% of tested 8600Ks were able to hit 5.1GHz or greater. (AVX offset 2, < 1.412V Vcore)
> As of 12/01/17, the top 84% of tested 8600Ks were able to hit 5.0GHz or greater. (AVX offset 2, < 1.40V Vcore)
> As of 12/01/17, the top 98% of tested 8600Ks were able to hit 4.9GHz or greater. (AVX offset 2, < 1.387V Vcore)


)_


----------



## Clausewitz

I have a Fatal1ty Z370 K6 and it's stable at 4.9ghz 1.35v with LLC setting of 2( 1 being the highest). No matter what I try I can't seem to get stable at 5.0ghz. I've tried up to 1.4v, setting VCCIO, System Agent, etc to varying voltages. 1.4v is the limit of my thermal headroom as it gets into the low 90s during stress testing. This is not a delidded CPU. I have no AVX offset it's 4.9 all the time. C-states off. V-TD off, spreadspectrum off, intel speedshift off, all power limits maxed.

I do notice extreme vdroop when running benchmarks. My 1.35 LLC 2 setting lets the voltage drop all the way down to 1.26v under load. That may be what's causing the issue with my 5.0ghz attempts. The vdroop is just so severe. Using 1.30 (latest BIOS).


----------



## amd7674

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Clausewitz*
> 
> I have a Fatal1ty Z370 K6 and it's stable at 4.9ghz 1.35v with LLC setting of 2( 1 being the highest). No matter what I try I can't seem to get stable at 5.0ghz. I've tried up to 1.4v, setting VCCIO, System Agent, etc to varying voltages. 1.4v is the limit of my thermal headroom as it gets into the low 90s during stress testing. This is not a delidded CPU. I have no AVX offset it's 4.9 all the time. C-states off. V-TD off, spreadspectrum off, intel speedshift off, all power limits maxed.
> 
> I do notice extreme vdroop when running benchmarks. My 1.35 LLC 2 setting lets the voltage drop all the way down to 1.26v under load. That may be what's causing the issue with my 5.0ghz attempts. The vdroop is just so severe. Using 1.30 (latest BIOS).


maybe try LLC = 1? I cound't get 5Ghz myself yet on taichi, I will try it again once I get CPU delidded. Also if you haven't done it yet, maybe set your windows power management to high performance (not sure if that would help).


----------



## Sin0822

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Clausewitz*
> 
> I have a Fatal1ty Z370 K6 and it's stable at 4.9ghz 1.35v with LLC setting of 2( 1 being the highest). No matter what I try I can't seem to get stable at 5.0ghz. I've tried up to 1.4v, setting VCCIO, System Agent, etc to varying voltages. 1.4v is the limit of my thermal headroom as it gets into the low 90s during stress testing. This is not a delidded CPU. I have no AVX offset it's 4.9 all the time. C-states off. V-TD off, spreadspectrum off, intel speedshift off, all power limits maxed.
> 
> I do notice extreme vdroop when running benchmarks. My 1.35 LLC 2 setting lets the voltage drop all the way down to 1.26v under load. That may be what's causing the issue with my 5.0ghz attempts. The vdroop is just so severe. Using 1.30 (latest BIOS).


Is the stress testing program using AVX? If so, try an offset. That voltage drop doesn't sound good, I know on the Taichi and Professional Gaming i7 they have fixed their vdroop issue with newer BIOS. Maybe try BIOS P1.1 instead of P1.3, to see if VDroop is broken in the new BIOS, as 1.1 is the BIOS that should have fixed it.


----------



## Clausewitz

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *amd7674*
> 
> maybe try LLC = 1? I cound't get 5Ghz myself yet on taichi, I will try it again once I get CPU delidded. Also if you haven't done it yet, maybe set your windows power management to high performance (not sure if that would help).


LLC1 will put me into bad thermal territory.

Windows is on high performance - I doubt that has any impact.


----------



## Clausewitz

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Sin0822*
> 
> Is the stress testing program using AVX? If so, try an offset. That voltage drop doesn't sound good, I know on the Taichi and Professional Gaming i7 they have fixed their vdroop issue with newer BIOS. Maybe try BIOS P1.1 instead of P1.3, to see if VDroop is broken in the new BIOS, as 1.1 is the BIOS that should have fixed it.


I am using RealBench and I have tried an offset of 2 and 3. The 5ghz just throws cache errors about 10 minutes into the test. I get L0 cache errors on HWiNFO. However, dialing the voltage to 1.35 (down from 1.4) and setting it to 4.9ghz with no offset, it passes the test for 1hr+ without any errors.

I've even tried running the uncore clock at 40 and 37. So whatever is causing the instability it's voltage related and has nothing to do with AVX because it's unstable with an offset as high as 3. It's really bizarre how I can go from 4.9 to 5.0 and need so much more voltage.

So, I should flash back my BIOS?


----------



## aliquiswe

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Clausewitz*
> 
> I have a Fatal1ty Z370 K6 and it's stable at 4.9ghz 1.35v with LLC setting of 2( 1 being the highest). No matter what I try I can't seem to get stable at 5.0ghz. I've tried up to 1.4v, setting VCCIO, System Agent, etc to varying voltages. 1.4v is the limit of my thermal headroom as it gets into the low 90s during stress testing. This is not a delidded CPU. I have no AVX offset it's 4.9 all the time. C-states off. V-TD off, spreadspectrum off, intel speedshift off, all power limits maxed.
> 
> I do notice extreme vdroop when running benchmarks. My 1.35 LLC 2 setting lets the voltage drop all the way down to 1.26v under load. That may be what's causing the issue with my 5.0ghz attempts. The vdroop is just so severe. Using 1.30 (latest BIOS).


Maybe it's hard to get 5.0 with no delid.

Wasn't it the case that you needed higher voltage for hotter chips? Which of course result in even more heat. At-least they did pull more power.
Maybe at less heat (delidded) the electronics would "run cleaner" making it possible to use less voltage meaning that your voltage and heat at current clock would be lower and that you wouldn't need to use as much or hit a thermal limit at 5.0. But now as it's not delidded that become harder.)

The LLC is what the software report and are we sure that's ~correct and that actual voltages isn't higher? Maybe due from results as far as OC and power draw one could be?

Maybe try LLC 1 at lower voltages and see if that ends up being higher than set one or not, without knowing much at all I assume it's the 1.26 volt which make it unsuccessful?

I guess it's fine if manufacturers decide that they won't let voltages RISE with load and make the extreme LLC settings less extreme. I don't know if that's what ASRock has done here or if something else is going on.

Don't expect 5.0 without delid? https://www.reddit.com/r/intel/comments/76op5s/8700k_overclocking_warning_do_not_expect_5ghz/


----------



## amd7674

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *aliquiswe*
> 
> Maybe it's hard to get 5.0 with no delid.
> 
> Wasn't it the case that you needed higher voltage for hotter chips? Which of course result in even more heat. At-least they did pull more power.
> Maybe at less heat (delidded) the electronics would "run cleaner" making it possible to use less voltage meaning that your voltage and heat at current clock would be lower and that you wouldn't need to use as much or hit a thermal limit at 5.0. But now as it's not delidded that become harder.)
> 
> The LLC is what the software report and are we sure that's ~correct and that actual voltages isn't higher? Maybe due from results as far as OC and power draw one could be?
> 
> Maybe try LLC 1 at lower voltages and see if that ends up being higher than set one or not, without knowing much at all I assume it's the 1.26 volt which make it unsuccessful?
> 
> I guess it's fine if manufacturers decide that they won't let voltages RISE with load and make the extreme LLC settings less extreme. I don't know if that's what ASRock has done here or if something else is going on.
> 
> Don't expect 5.0 without delid? https://www.reddit.com/r/intel/comments/76op5s/8700k_overclocking_warning_do_not_expect_5ghz/


+1,

From what I've seen and read, everyone was using LLC1 on ASrock mobos. Myself I couldn't get 5ghz on my Taichi because I was hitting high temps, I didn't notice any voltage drops. I will revisit 5Ghz once I get my CPU delided.


----------



## aliquiswe

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *amd7674*
> 
> +1,
> 
> From what I've seen and read, everyone was using LLC1 on ASrock mobos. Myself I couldn't get 5ghz on my Taichi because I was hitting high temps, I didn't notice any voltage drops. I will revisit 5Ghz once I get my CPU delided.


Well, since it may be the case you require more voltage because it already run hot that + of course that it's not delidded make it even hotter and well.. The outcome you know.

Delidded you'd remove the thermal limit but since you'd get lower temps it would also run more efficient (maybe one can lower voltages?) and as such you'd get even further away from it (and if you can run at lower volt there's that too!)

It seem like i7 8700 or delidded i7 8700K is the way to go, but I don't want to "break" (I mean just delid here, not actually not make it run) the CPU!


----------



## amd7674

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *aliquiswe*
> 
> Well, since it may be the case you require more voltage because it already run hot that + of course that it's not delidded make it even hotter and well.. The outcome you know.
> 
> Delidded you'd remove the thermal limit but since you'd get lower temps it would also run more efficient (maybe one can lower voltages?) and as such you'd get even further away from it (and if you can run at lower volt there's that too!)
> 
> It seem like i7 8700 or delidded i7 8700K is the way to go, but I don't want to "break" (I mean just delid here, not actually not make it run) the CPU!


I fully understand







Someone just suggested to lower SA/IO temps and I saved about 2C (see o/c 8700k thread).

I will try to delid my older 3570k CPU and than if successful and comfortable I will do 8700k.

I played some BF1 and BF4 last night at 4.9Ghz ... and OMG... this CPU is putting my GTX1070 to shame... even at 1080p. The CPU is not even sweating. LOL


----------



## Clausewitz

I just attained stability (according to Der8auer's standards) at 5ghz. I followed his video guide for the ASUS Maximus X Hero and used the same settings.

I have a Fatal1ty K6 Gaming Z370 motherboard. Latest BIOS v1.3

Corsair H110i Intaking air, everything set to performance in Corsair Link. Pump and fans both.

My settings:

Disable VT-d
Disable Spread Spectrum
Disable Speedshift
Disable C-states
Set power limits to maximum
Set CPU ratio to 50.
Set AVX Offset to -2 ( Der8auer recommends -3 but knowing my CPU was stable in AVX at 4.9 I decided to try -2 )
Enable XMP (I have G.skill Hynix modules which have CAS15 3000 1.35v)
Set Ring/LLC Clock to 42
System Agent to 1ghz (most boards already have it at 1ghz, this is mainly for GPU benefit)
Set CPU Vcore to Fixed/Static 1.35
Set LLC to Level 1 (Der8auer asks for Level 6 for ASUS Maximus X Hero. However, Asrock seems to need their highest setting for vdroop issues which is 1. Highest ASUS is 7.)

I then stress tested in Prime95 version 26.6 per his suggestion. I set it to custom Min FFT size 1344. Max FFT Size 1344 Run FFTs in place. I ran this test for one hour.

My peak temps on some cores were low 90s. He states this is acceptable when stress testing. My CPU runs much cooler in games and applications but at least I know it's stable.

Here is the video I used:


----------



## lb_felipe

Is worthwhile swap the stock 40mm VRM fan's Z370 AORUS Gaming 7 with this one noise-wise?

http://noctua.at/en/products/fan/nf-a4x20-pwm


----------



## aliquiswe

https://www.eteknix.com/asrock-z370-fatal1ty-gaming-k6-motherboard-review/7/

Anyone wanna take a guess of why idle voltages are higher on Strix F than K6?
From the gaming benchmarks the Strix F ran faster so I guess it was the MCE results and maybe that would explain higher idle?
Then again they have the OC results too and it's there too. From not as efficient VRM?


----------



## ehume

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *lb_felipe*
> 
> Is worthwhile swap the stock 40mm VRM fan's Z370 AORUS Gaming 7 with this one noise-wise?
> 
> http://noctua.at/en/products/fan/nf-a4x20-pwm


Is that fan hard to reach? Easy to replace?

Also, I only saw two wires to control it. If there is not a third wire, the fan is voltage-controlled and provides no rpm feedback to the MB.

As an aside, do we have any recent credible info on when to expect 390 chipsets?


----------



## lb_felipe

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ehume*
> 
> Is that fan hard to reach? Easy to replace?
> 
> Also, I only saw two wires to control it. If there is not a third wire, the fan is voltage-controlled and provides no rpm feedback to the MB.
> 
> As an aside, do we have any recent credible info on when to expect 390 chipsets?


I don't know.

According this reviews, you can use a PWM fan on the header of VRM fan (Sys Fan 2). I guess you can monitoring and even control it through the UEFI.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *KitGuru*
> In total there are eight fan headers, although CPU and CPU Opt effectively count as one, and *the Sys Fan 2 header is taken by the 40mm fan that is hidden in the I/O panel*.


https://www.kitguru.net/components/leo-waldock/z370-aorus-gaming-7-from-gigabyte-high-end-intel-8th-gen-motherboard/

Edit:

By the pics, it looks like the tiny fan uses DC control (3-pin), but I wonder whther that board can control 4-pin (PWM) fan like it can do it through others headers.

Howsover Noctua has DC controllable versions. Though I have some Noctua fans, I am not a huge fan of its fans (sorry for the pun), but I do not know other brands quiet-wise which have 40mm fan in their line-up. Also I do not even know whteher that 40mm model is good.

http://noctua.at/en/products/fan (bottom of the page)


----------



## AlphaC

https://www.io-tech.fi/artikkelit/katsaus-z370-emolevyihin-asus-gigabyte-msi/

4.9 GHz Prime95-stable without AVX , 10 minutes of load


Z370-F STRIX


Gaming 7



Pro Carbon

Galax Z370 Gamer





http://tech.ifeng.com/a/20171203/44788083_0.shtml

TUF Pro with Onsemi parts

http://www.ocdrift.com/review-asus-tuf-z370-pro-gaming/2/

Colorful igame Vulcan
Quote:


> The processor power supply circuit part of the luxurious 14-phase power design, and each phase power supply circuit are used IPP high-quality solid-state inductors, Sanyo SMD tantalum capacitors, and medium and small SM7321 MOSFET. We ran a half-hour roaster test on this board by pulling the processor load with the Prime95 In-place large FFTs. The result is more satisfactory. At room temperature of about 20 ℃ environment, the thermal imager measured the power supply section of the motherboard processor part of the maximum temperature of 79.2 ℃.


Thermals


VRM


http://www.sohu.com/a/207668759_616364


----------



## Clausewitz

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AlphaC*
> 
> https://www.io-tech.fi/artikkelit/katsaus-z370-emolevyihin-asus-gigabyte-msi/
> 
> 4.9 GHz Prime95-stable without AVX , 10 minutes of load
> 
> 
> Z370-F STRIX
> 
> 
> Gaming 7
> 
> 
> 
> Pro Carbon
> 
> Galax Z370 Gamer
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> http://tech.ifeng.com/a/20171203/44788083_0.shtml
> 
> TUF Pro with Onsemi parts
> 
> http://www.ocdrift.com/review-asus-tuf-z370-pro-gaming/2/


That Galax board looks horrid. I don't know how many more things they can stick on these boards. I'm really not a fan of the armor type stuff.


----------



## Robilar

Does it really matter what a motherboard looks like? I only see mine during installation, the odd dust cleaning and upgrades. Heck I tried to get a 750D without a side window because I don't build computers to look at the interior but rather to use them.

I'll take an ugly, high quality and feature board over a flashy, gimmicky lesser board every time.

I personally have no use for the Armor stuff either. I guess it's a selling gimmick as it certainly doesn't improve performance in the slightest.


----------



## ReDXfiRe

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Clausewitz*
> 
> I have a Fatal1ty Z370 K6 and it's stable at 4.9ghz 1.35v with LLC setting of 2( 1 being the highest). No matter what I try I can't seem to get stable at 5.0ghz. I've tried up to 1.4v, setting VCCIO, System Agent, etc to varying voltages. 1.4v is the limit of my thermal headroom as it gets into the low 90s during stress testing. This is not a delidded CPU. I have no AVX offset it's 4.9 all the time. C-states off. V-TD off, spreadspectrum off, intel speedshift off, all power limits maxed.
> 
> I do notice extreme vdroop when running benchmarks. My 1.35 LLC 2 setting lets the voltage drop all the way down to 1.26v under load. That may be what's causing the issue with my 5.0ghz attempts. The vdroop is just so severe. Using 1.30 (latest BIOS).


I have the Z370 K6 and I've done a lot of tweakings with this MOBO since I do reviews in my country. Try LLC1, actually if the sensors are correct, the voltage overshoot ain't bad and most of the time it maintains a flat line (if the sensors are to be trusted of course). I've tried LLC2 and there's too much Vdroop to make them stable. I have stable my CPU @ 5.2 GHz 1.44v (will try to lower to 1.435v) with LLC1. Remember it depends a lot on Silicon Lottery.

I have my CPU delidded by myself and before delid I was able to hit 5.1 GHz with 1.42ish volts but with high temps. 5.2 GHz was achievable with 1.43ish volts and temps are totally fine.

Open CPU-Z or HWinfo and check MOBO Vcore sensor and check how's the vdroop during stress test or you can run a quick CB15 to check the different LLCs vdroop as I mentioned (for me LLC2 is a no-go).


----------



## Clausewitz

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Robilar*
> 
> Does it really matter what a motherboard looks like? I only see mine during installation, the odd dust cleaning and upgrades. Heck I tried to get a 750D without a side window because I don't build computers to look at the interior but rather to use them.
> 
> I'll take an ugly, high quality and feature board over a flashy, gimmicky lesser board every time.
> 
> I personally have no use for the Armor stuff either. I guess it's a selling gimmick as it certainly doesn't improve performance in the slightest.


It matters for two reasons.

1.) I don't like ugly motherboards but I would still buy a good performing ugly motherboard.

2.) Some of this armor actually hurts performance. My Z370 K6 has an additional piece of plastic that goes over the VRM and insulates them. If it was designed like the Taichi more cold air could get to those VRM.


----------



## skyhawk21

No, this is a perfect 80 plus gold psu with three other motherboards and different cpus.

First ever motherboard (gigabyte gaming 5) that has fluctuating voltages or a SENSITIVE sensor that refreshes to quickly, is defective, or glitchy due to firmware.

Some one with voltage meter and or oscillator needs to find points on gigabyte gaming 5 board and test to see if it actually fluctuates this bad physically.

Maybe gigabyte can fix with bios update.

As I said system is stable so far. I hope this issue doesn't get worse in future or degrade pc parts.

It seems on the web searches, newer amd gigabyte boards having same problems with same sensors..
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *pastorx*
> 
> @skyhawk21
> *Could it be a PSU failure?*
> @ZaknafeinGR
> It is a relief to hear that there are no problems reading the temperature. *Does your sensor readings show fluctuating voltages for everything? I Dont understand why a voltage {Vcore} that should not vary, indicate different results in two different sensors {ITE8686E } {8792E} on the same card {Aorus gaming 5 }. or I'm wrong and it's common...
> *
> 
> ITE8686E bugging, or it just is not accurate? or it's just vdrop?
> 
> thanks for your answers.


----------



## amd7674

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ReDXfiRe*
> 
> I have the Z370 K6 and I've done a lot of tweakings with this MOBO since I do reviews in my country. Try LLC1, actually if the sensors are correct, the voltage overshoot ain't bad and most of the time it maintains a flat line (if the sensors are to be trusted of course). I've tried LLC2 and there's too much Vdroop to make them stable. I have stable my CPU @ 5.2 GHz 1.44v (will try to lower to 1.435v) with LLC1. Remember it depends a lot on Silicon Lottery.
> 
> I have my CPU delidded by myself and before delid I was able to hit 5.1 GHz with 1.42ish volts but with high temps. 5.2 GHz was achievable with 1.43ish volts and temps are totally fine.
> 
> Open CPU-Z or HWinfo and check MOBO Vcore sensor and check how's the vdroop during stress test or you can run a quick CB15 to check the different LLCs vdroop as I mentioned (for me LLC2 is a no-go).


I'm using Taichi and with [email protected] on vcore (LLC=1) I'm going over +90C , so I stopped trying. I will resume 5Ghz mission once I get CPU delided. I'm using Noctua D15 for HSF.

What temps were you getting on [email protected]?


----------



## Clausewitz

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *amd7674*
> 
> I'm using Taichi and with [email protected] on vcore (LLC=1) I'm going over +90C , so I stopped trying. I will resume 5Ghz mission once I get CPU delided. I'm using Noctua D15 for HSF.
> 
> What temps were you getting on [email protected]?


I've backed down my OC to 4.9ghz no AVX offset (not delidded). I'd delid if I had a really bad chip but I don't think it's worth it to delid my CPU for just 100mhz. My temps are in the high 60s in most cases with an H110i in intake orientation.

I know 5ghz is just some sort of mental number everyone wants but 100mhz is really not worth spending money on a delid tool, gasket seal, conductonaut, etc.


----------



## amd7674

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Clausewitz*
> 
> I've backed down my OC to 4.9ghz no AVX offset (not delidded). I'd delid if I had a really bad chip but I don't think it's worth it to delid my CPU for just 100mhz. My temps are in the high 60s in most cases with an H110i in intake orientation.
> 
> I know 5ghz is just some sort of mental number everyone wants but 100mhz is really not worth spending money on a delid tool, gasket seal, conductonaut, etc.


Thank you for your reply. I purchased the tool and I'll just either keep it and help my friends or I will resell it.

Even if I cannot get more than 5ghz I'm hopping to shave off some temps so I can keep my system quieter


----------



## AlphaC

I touched a nerve somewhere.

https://www.kitguru.net/components/leo-waldock/gigabyte-z370-aorus-ultra-gaming-review/2/
Quote:


> VRM temperatures TMPIN4 in Deus Ex benchmark
> 40 degrees at 4.3GHz
> 50 degrees at 5.0GHz
> 
> VRM temperatures TMPIN4 in Blender BWM render
> 77 degrees at 4.3GHz
> 117 degrees at 5.0GHz
> 
> On the other hand if you play games and use the PC in a conventional manner the VRM temperatures are very low and do not pass 50 degrees. It is worth spelling out that the VRM heat sinks remained cool at all times so the high temperatures during CPU workloads are not due to poor heat sinks or a lack of airflow. Instead we feel it is either due to the design of the Ultra Gaming where the 4+3 VRM layout is inadequate if you want to stress the 6-core Intel CPU to the maximum, or it could be specific to these VRM chips and they are incapable of shedding heat sufficiently fast.
> 
> It was a curious thing to watch the test PC running Blender at 5GHz with the VRM heat sinks removed. The external temperatures of the chips were in the 40s low while the internal temperatures approached 120 degrees. That sounds like the most extreme torture test however the system finally started to throttle after some minutes of running and then clicked on and off as the VRM temperatures cycled so it actually managed perfectly well in terrible circumstances.


Video title: "Gigabyte Z370 Aorus Ultra Gaming - is it really a complete stinker? "

edit: also Z390 supposedly coming Q1 2018? See rumor thread http://www.overclock.net/t/1643368/eteknix-intel-2018-roadmap-leaked-from-galax-event


----------



## ezveedub

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AlphaC*
> 
> I touched a nerve somewhere.
> 
> https://www.kitguru.net/components/leo-waldock/gigabyte-z370-aorus-ultra-gaming-review/2/
> Video title: "Gigabyte Z370 Aorus Ultra Gaming - is it really a complete stinker? "
> 
> edit: also Z390 supposedly coming Q1 2018? See rumor thread http://www.overclock.net/t/1643368/eteknix-intel-2018-roadmap-leaked-from-galax-event


Well, at least they got the write up some what correct. Its a Gaming 370 mobo, not a workstation unit. Not many are gonna buy a cheaper mobo with a 8700K and run workstation operations on it mainly. If so, you have chose poorly, lol


----------



## asdkj1740

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AlphaC*
> 
> I touched a nerve somewhere.
> 
> https://www.kitguru.net/components/leo-waldock/gigabyte-z370-aorus-ultra-gaming-review/2/
> Video title: "Gigabyte Z370 Aorus Ultra Gaming - is it really a complete stinker? "
> 
> edit: also Z390 supposedly coming Q1 2018? See rumor thread http://www.overclock.net/t/1643368/eteknix-intel-2018-roadmap-leaked-from-galax-event


that depends on voltage.
this board cant handle 1.4v even on gaming.


----------



## asdkj1740

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ezveedub*
> 
> Well, at least they got the write up some what correct. Its a Gaming 370 mobo, not a workstation unit. Not many are gonna buy a cheaper mobo with a 7700K and run workstation operations on it mainly. If so, you have chose poorly, lol


cant blame the victim if their 8700k needs 1.4v for 5ghz. it is difficult to foresee the 8700k potential in advance.
if a 8700k needs only 1.3v to achieve 5ghz, then even the cheapest z370 can work very good.


----------



## QC-Cool

Anyone tested the vrms on the formula X ? And who believes that we will see a Extreme X with a single monoblock and if so, when should this be out ?


----------



## ReDXfiRe

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *amd7674*
> 
> I'm using Taichi and with [email protected] on vcore (LLC=1) I'm going over +90C , so I stopped trying. I will resume 5Ghz mission once I get CPU delided. I'm using Noctua D15 for HSF.
> 
> What temps were you getting on [email protected]?


https://www.facebook.com/xanxogaming/posts/1805830386095875

You can check the images (even though it's in Spanish) and you can reach me easier there if any help; now. First of all, using a AIO Cooler 280 (TT Floe Riing 280 TT premium edition, lol, long name) and Artic MX4 between IHS and AIO. Delidding chip is using Thermal Grizzly Conductonaut.

5.2 GHz 1.44vcore LLC1 on the Gaming K6 CPU temps 70-76 degrees on OCCT Non AVX, remember that I delidded this chip, around 20-25 degrees difference versus stock thermal paste between IHS and die. I'll try IBT afterwards with a lower frequency/voltage, because I'm using a thermal gun to read temperatures on the VRM.

If anyone is interested, OCCT Non Avx 5.0 GHz 1.38volts, the hottest spot in the VRM went up to 81 degrees (test were done around 16 degrees ambient), around 8 degrees hotter than the Z370 Strix-E in the same test with the same settings. Probably for my workload I wouldn't worry about the VRM; but if someone had constant AVX workload and did a heavy OC, live in a hot country during summer, probably I'll put some ventilation over the VRM of the Gaming K6. Not sure which variant I have, haven't taken the heatsinks off.

Hope this helps you amd7674.


----------



## RustySpoons

Can't seem to hit 5.2GHz reliably with my 8700K on my Hero X (Latest BIOS 0802) will sometimes Blue Screen on Benches, WHEA etc.

I can however hit 5.1GHz with no AVX offset seems totally stable (Not sure if any benchmark programmes I use have AVX?, Realbench and Cinebench)

Not dellided, running a Noctua D14, 4x Sticks of Team Group 8Gb DDR4 @ 3200MHz CAS 14

Temps around 75c max in benches, has peaked to 80c briefly, CPU Voltage 1.325v

Not sure if I should be happy or sad, was hoping for 5.2GHz +


----------



## amd7674

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ReDXfiRe*
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/xanxogaming/posts/1805830386095875
> 
> You can check the images (even though it's in Spanish) and you can reach me easier there if any help; now. First of all, using a AIO Cooler 280 (TT Floe Riing 280 TT premium edition, lol, long name) and Artic MX4 between IHS and AIO. Delidding chip is using Thermal Grizzly Conductonaut.
> 
> 5.2 GHz 1.44vcore LLC1 on the Gaming K6 CPU temps 70-76 degrees on OCCT Non AVX, remember that I delidded this chip, around 20-25 degrees difference versus stock thermal paste between IHS and die. I'll try IBT afterwards with a lower frequency/voltage, because I'm using a thermal gun to read temperatures on the VRM.
> 
> If anyone is interested, OCCT Non Avx 5.0 GHz 1.38volts, the hottest spot in the VRM went up to 81 degrees (test were done around 16 degrees ambient), around 8 degrees hotter than the Z370 Strix-E in the same test with the same settings. Probably for my workload I wouldn't worry about the VRM; but if someone had constant AVX workload and did a heavy OC, live in a hot country during summer, probably I'll put some ventilation over the VRM of the Gaming K6. Not sure which variant I have, haven't taken the heatsinks off.
> 
> Hope this helps you amd7674.


thanks for the info, I did sent you PM about thermal gun you are using. I wonder if the el cheapo gun would work. I would probably try to stay below 80C on VRMs sinks. I checked my and I'm using fairchild mosfets (better out of the two).


----------



## amd7674

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RustySpoons*
> 
> Can't seem to hit 5.2GHz reliably with my 8700K on my Hero X (Latest BIOS 0802) will sometimes Blue Screen on Benches, WHEA etc.
> 
> I can however hit 5.1GHz with no AVX offset seems totally stable (Not sure if any benchmark programmes I use have AVX?, Realbench and Cinebench)
> 
> Not dellided, running a Noctua D14, 4x Sticks of Team Group 8Gb DDR4 @ 3200MHz CAS 14
> 
> Temps around 75c max in benches, has peaked to 80c briefly, CPU Voltage 1.325v
> 
> Not sure if I should be happy or sad, was hoping for 5.2GHz +


5.1Ghz on not dellided CPU is pretty good . You are getting awesome temps too.







I cannot get 5.0Ghz on my non-dellided CPU.

I believe any prime95 above 26.6 has built-in AVX support or you can use LinXv0.8.0.


----------



## webhito

Seems like offset does not like to play nicely with this board, if I set it to 50x it won't even load up the 3dmark program without crashing.

With my voltage fixed to 1.25v it spikes at 1.264, I can pass any 3dmark benchmark without a single issue, temperature wise my hottest core was 77c.

Seems I got a decent little chip.

https://valid.x86.fr/f8abq0


----------



## pastorx

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *skyhawk21*
> 
> No, this is a perfect 80 plus gold psu with three other motherboards and different cpus.
> 
> First ever motherboard (gigabyte gaming 5) that has fluctuating voltages or a SENSITIVE sensor that refreshes to quickly, is defective, or glitchy due to firmware.
> 
> Some one with voltage meter and or oscillator needs to find points on gigabyte gaming 5 board and test to see if it actually fluctuates this bad physically.
> 
> Maybe gigabyte can fix with bios update.
> 
> As I said system is stable so far. I hope this issue doesn't get worse in future or degrade pc parts.
> 
> It seems on the web searches, newer amd gigabyte boards having same problems with same sensors..


@ZaknafeinGR

*I was reviewing more thoroughly, and I realized that even in Aorus Gaming 7 Z370, each sensor* ( Ite IT8686E and ite IT8792E ) *gives different voltage readings in the vcore.*




@skyhawk21
the IT8792E seems to give more accurate values and i think that is normal on gigabytes motherboard. Maybe it's like you say, an exessively sensitive sensor, not necessarily a defect since the motherboard works correctly. A future bios will fix it i guess..

BIOS- or more generally software-based voltage monitoring isn't exactly reliable. There's no cause for worry unless you start having strange problems

It also draws attention that no review site mentions any kind of fluctuating voltages problem, or sensor with reading problems. Not in tweaktown, nor in Chinese sites.


----------



## ReDXfiRe

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RustySpoons*
> 
> Can't seem to hit 5.2GHz reliably with my 8700K on my Hero X (Latest BIOS 0802) will sometimes Blue Screen on Benches, WHEA etc.
> 
> I can however hit 5.1GHz with no AVX offset seems totally stable (Not sure if any benchmark programmes I use have AVX?, Realbench and Cinebench)
> 
> Not dellided, running a Noctua D14, 4x Sticks of Team Group 8Gb DDR4 @ 3200MHz CAS 14
> 
> Temps around 75c max in benches, has peaked to 80c briefly, CPU Voltage 1.325v
> 
> Not sure if I should be happy or sad, was hoping for 5.2GHz +


AVX aside, reached 5.2 GHz with 1.43-1.44v on my chip, it's delidded. Before delid only was able to go up to 5.1 GHz due to thermal issues. 5.3 GHz is a no-go, excessive voltage needed to run that. Remember there's silicon lottery valley. I think if I did run @ 5.0 GHz, probably with this CPU I would need around 1.28v-1.30v.

Sidenote: Little bit worrisome that mid range MOBOs don't have a VRM temp sensor you can monitor through hwinfo or AIDA. Unless you have a heat gun and stress yourself, this post is probably the best place to get some info on VRM and their heatsinks. Good effort in this post.

Can confirm both Strix-E + Gaming K6 don't have VRM temp sensors.


----------



## elmor

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AlphaC*
> 
> I touched a nerve somewhere.
> 
> https://www.kitguru.net/components/leo-waldock/gigabyte-z370-aorus-ultra-gaming-review/2/
> Video title: "Gigabyte Z370 Aorus Ultra Gaming - is it really a complete stinker? "
> 
> edit: also Z390 supposedly coming Q1 2018? See rumor thread http://www.overclock.net/t/1643368/eteknix-intel-2018-roadmap-leaked-from-galax-event


Quote:


> VRM temperatures TMPIN4 in Deus Ex benchmark
> 40 degrees at 4.3GHz
> 50 degrees at 5.0GHz
> 
> VRM temperatures TMPIN4 in Blender BWM render
> 77 degrees at 4.3GHz
> 117 degrees at 5.0GHz


Quote:


> It is worth spelling out that the VRM heat sinks remained cool at all times so the high temperatures during CPU workloads are not due to poor heat sinks or a lack of airflow. Instead we feel it is either due to the design of the Ultra Gaming where the 4+3 VRM layout is inadequate if you want to stress the 6-core Intel CPU to the maximum, or it could be specific to these VRM chips and they are incapable of shedding heat sufficiently fast.
> 
> It was a curious thing to watch the test PC running Blender at 5GHz with the VRM heat sinks removed. The external temperatures of the chips were in the 40s low while the internal temperatures approached 120 degrees.


Yeah great heatsink, VRM at 117 degrees while sink is still cool (bad transfer). Removing the heatsink only increased temps by 3 degrees?


----------



## freaky35

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ReDXfiRe*
> 
> AVX aside, reached 5.2 GHz with 1.43-1.44v on my chip, it's delidded. Before delid only was able to go up to 5.1 GHz due to thermal issues. 5.3 GHz is a no-go, excessive voltage needed to run that. Remember there's silicon lottery valley. I think if I did run @ 5.0 GHz, probably with this CPU I would need around 1.28v-1.30v.
> 
> Sidenote: Little bit worrisome that mid range MOBOs don't have a VRM temp sensor you can monitor through hwinfo or AIDA. Unless you have a heat gun and stress yourself, this post is probably the best place to get some info on VRM and their heatsinks. Good effort in this post.
> 
> Can confirm both Strix-E + Gaming K6 don't have VRM temp sensors.


yhea thats sucks big time,I have no idea now,how hot these vrm's are now,when stressing,for instance.

Got an extreme 4 Asrock

1,44 that a lot of voltage,wow


----------



## amd7674

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *freaky35*
> 
> yhea thats sucks big time,I have no idea now,how hot these vrm's are now,when stressing,for instance.
> 
> Got an extreme 4 Asrock
> 
> 1,44 that a lot of voltage,wow


No Thermal sensor on Taichi as well. I'm planning on getting thermal gun (always wanted one), I wonder how tricky it will be to measure temps on vrm heatsinks with D15 HSF in a way.


----------



## Yetyhunter

Does the Strix-E has a VRM temperature sensor ? How can I know if I am running at normal temperatures at GHZ ?


----------



## bloot

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Yetyhunter*
> 
> Does the Strix-E has a VRM temperature sensor ? How can I know if I am running at normal temperatures at GHZ ?


It hasn't. You can use an infrared thermometer gun (they're cheap) or stick a temperature probe sensor (included in the box) on the VRM area.


----------



## AlphaC

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *amd7674*
> 
> No Thermal sensor on Taichi as well. I'm planning on getting thermal gun (always wanted one), I wonder how tricky it will be to measure temps on vrm heatsinks with D15 HSF in a way.


You want to measure from the back of the board anyway.

----

Steven's Biostar GT6 review
https://www.tweaktown.com/reviews/8462/biostar-z370gt6-motherboard-review/index3.html
Quote:


> The VRM on this motherboard uses Intersil's ISL95866 4+3 phase PWM controller. It offers four phases for the CPU VCore, and on that rail, it has two integrated driver outputs, and BIOSTAR adds two more drivers (ISL6208) for a total of four driver outputs. These dour driver outputs go to two sets of power stage components. The Sinowpower SM4364 and SM4377 MOSFETs are used as low-side and high-side MOSFETs, these are the same we found on some Z170 motherboards from BIOSTAR.
> 
> Read more: https://www.tweaktown.com/reviews/8462/biostar-z370gt6-motherboard-review/index3.html


Quote:


> The Z370GT6's thermal performance is actually pretty decent at stock and overclocked it also very good, but that's mainly because all cores go back down to 4.4GHz, which is slightly above Intel's default specification. I am unsure whether it's the AVX offset or some type of internal VRM temperature/current limit, but you won't be able to easily overheat these VRMs because of that limiter. I do recommend a fan over the VRM area if you are going to overclock heavily.
> 
> Read more: https://www.tweaktown.com/reviews/8462/biostar-z370gt6-motherboard-review/index10.html


The RDS(on) is rather high at 7 milliohms (most mid-range boards have 4 milliohms). This means even though the rise time is low (similar to STRIX) on the high side mosfets, the VRM will be toasty if it weren't throttling.


----------



## amd7674

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AlphaC*
> 
> You want to measure from the back of the board anyway.


Thanks for the tip, I guess I will have to redo my testing. I hope the HAF 922 CPU cutout will allow me to measure the back of it.
Do I have to be precisely on the back of Mosfets? I'm afraid to read CPU temp instead.

What I did today was run RealBench for 30 minutes and I was measuring the hottest parts of the heatsink which was the heatpipe joining both sides ~54.5C and the hotest part of the heatsink close to the heatpipe measured ~44.6C. Even if the test wasn't conducted properly the results seem to be positive, right? What do you think?

This is with 8700k [email protected] (in BIOS) 1.297V in CPU-Z, 83C was the highest temp. According to HWINFO64 I was putting ~169W.

I'm planning on the delliding the CPU this weekend, hopefully it will allow me to get to 5Ghz club


----------



## AlphaC

Should measure between the two mosfet heatsink screws , ideally you sweep the area with the infrared thermometer to find the hottest spot. The left heatsink (i.e. IO shield side) should carry most of the heatload on K6 but Taichi seems to be mostly on the top heatsink (at the corner where the heatpipe is).


----------



## amd7674

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AlphaC*
> 
> Should measure between the two mosfet heatsink screws , ideally you sweep the area with the infrared thermometer to find the hottest spot. The left heatsink (i.e. IO shield side) should carry most of the heatload on K6 but Taichi seems to be mostly on the top heatsink (at the corner where the heatpipe is).


Thanks for the detailed instructions; I will redo the test this weekend. So Just so I understand this, I should measure the top one (area between the screws)? (i'm sorry for being a knob LOL).
I just hope the HAF 922 case have big enough CPU cutout to allow me to do this.

Funny you said Taichi carries the most heat where the heat pipe is, because that's what I've noticed. 54.5C was the highest reading.


----------



## amd7674

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *amd7674*
> 
> Thanks for the detailed instructions; I will redo the test this weekend. So Just so I understand this, I should measure the top one (area between the screws)? (i'm sorry for being a knob LOL).
> I just hope the HAF 922 case have big enough CPU cutout to allow me to do this.
> 
> Funny you said Taichi carries the most heat where the heat pipe is, because that's what I've noticed. 54.5C was the highest reading.


MOD Please delete this DUP... Apologies just had a long day


----------



## AlphaC

See Steven's thermal images
https://www.tweaktown.com/reviews/8381/asrock-z370-taichi-motherboard-review/index10.html

The corner is where he had a hotspot.


----------



## amd7674

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AlphaC*
> 
> See Steven's thermal images
> https://www.tweaktown.com/reviews/8381/asrock-z370-taichi-motherboard-review/index10.html
> 
> The corner is where he had a hotspot.


Thanks I saw the pictures and pointing this out, but I didn't realize some of the pictures were taken from the back.


----------



## asdkj1740

the biostar gt6 in asia is priced around $125 usd.


----------



## tashcz

Any point of putting those little copper chip heatsinks on the back of the board?

Something like this: https://www.ebay.com/itm/8pcs-Copper-Heatsink-Heat-Sink-for-Raspberry-Pi-Fin-Radiator-Cooling-Tool/222594624180?epid=2145237282&hash=item33d3ac6ab4:g:e0kAAOSw7ChZeY2~

EDIT: I mean on the power delivery chips, just to make sure.


----------



## ReDXfiRe

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AlphaC*
> 
> Should measure between the two mosfet heatsink screws , ideally you sweep the area with the infrared thermometer to find the hottest spot. The left heatsink (i.e. IO shield side) should carry most of the heatload on K6 but Taichi seems to be mostly on the top heatsink (at the corner where the heatpipe is).


Been measuring on top of the VRM; but mind my noob question... Measuring with IR gun pointing it directly on a mosfet for example, since it send radiation, will it do something I wouldn't want to happen? That's the only reason why I haven't sweeped the back of the mobo yet.

On the K6, at VRM heatsink itself, it reaches 81 degrees celsius on the hottest spot on OCCT Non AVX 5.0 GHz 1.38v after 30-40 mins of stress. STRIX-E hottest spot VRM Heatsink @ 73 degrees. Well, probably tommorow depending on your answer will run same test on the K6 and read up the back of the MOBO. Anyways thanks for all the great work and input you've been giving through out the post.


----------



## amd7674

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ReDXfiRe*
> 
> Been measuring on top of the VRM; but mind my noob question... Measuring with IR gun pointing it directly on a mosfet for example, since it send radiation, will it do something I wouldn't want to happen? That's the only reason why I haven't sweeped the back of the mobo yet.
> 
> On the K6, at VRM heatsink itself, it reaches 81 degrees celsius on the hottest spot on OCCT Non AVX 5.0 GHz 1.38v after 30-40 mins of stress. STRIX-E hottest spot VRM Heatsink @ 73 degrees. Well, probably tommorow depending on your answer will run same test on the K6 and read up the back of the MOBO. Anyways thanks for all the great work and input you've been giving through out the post.


I will try to redo my tests tonight as well.


----------



## AlphaC

Some thermal results from overclockers.ua , LinX 0.7.3 testing (AVX)

Z370-E STRIX https://www.overclockers.ua/motherboard/asus-rog-strix-z370-e-gaming/3/
Quote:


> During this test, the heating in the VRM region was 81 ° C, this is the temperature of the hottest section. Elements at the top of the board do not warm above 65 ° C. The main radiator - the one nearest to the rear panel - was warmed up to only 44 ° C (on its upper edge). No additional cooling measures have been taken. Not taking into account the burst of background activity in the Windows system, the consumption was within 48-243 W.


K6 https://www.overclockers.ua/motherboard/asrock-fatal1ty-z370-gaming-k6/3/
Quote:


> Perhaps, an indirect answer will be the study of energy consumption by various stands. Here we need to state the installation of (anti) record, the boundaries were equal (without taking into account the background splash) 50-244 W. For a voltage of 1.2 V - too much. And do not say that a lot of energy went into heat, because the maximum warm-up of the VRM section was 76 ° C, the upper part of the board was heated to 62 ° C, and the radiator in the upper point (without removing the visor) - only up to 43 ° C.


Pro Carbon (ATX) https://www.overclockers.ua/motherboard/msi-z370-gaming-pro-carbon-ac/3/
Quote:


> In the VRM area, closer to the I / O interface panel, the maximum heat was 74 ° C during the test, and the top of the board was heated to 55 ° C. The radiator has a complex design, its upper metal part warmed to 43 ° C. The consumption of the stand was within 43-229 W.


APEX https://www.overclockers.ua/motherboard/asus-rog-maximus-X-apex/3/
Quote:


> Without special cooling approaches, the highest temperature in the VRM sector was 60 ° C, that is, the integrated temperature sensor provides true information. At the same time, the upper edge of the radiator was heated to 41 ° C. Without taking into account the background burst of activity, the stand's consumption fit into the corridor 51-225 W.


Z370-I STRIX https://www.overclockers.ua/motherboard/asus-rog-strix-z370-i-gaming/3/
Quote:


> Without using special methods for cooling VRM (except for the fan used to cool the CPU), the highest recorded temperature here was 108 ° C. The high heatsink (closest to the I / O ports) on the upper edge was heated to 63 ° C, and the other, less, was warmed up to 50 ° C. Obviously, a higher processor voltage would lead to other numbers that would be difficult to call safe, and in this mode everything looks decent enough. The figures of consumption (if you do not take into account traditional for Windows bursts of background activity) formed the limits of 56-224 watts. They, looking at the final frequency boundary, are quite high.


----------



## GreedyMuffin

Taichi or Hero X if the price is the same?


----------



## AlphaC

Per 8pack from OCUK, Taichi is more capable of memory overclocking past 4GHz. He stated that he was able to run 4 sticks at 4000MHz.

Also Taichi has dual BIOs (with BIOS switch) and wifi+BT if you need those features.

The ROG Maximus X Hero isn't a great value due to the ROG price premium, but isn't bad board.


----------



## lb_felipe

@AlphaC, Taichi or Aorus Gaming 7 if the price is the same?


----------



## AlphaC

The Taichi is a solid board regardless of the use case (except RGB maybe). The Gaming 7 , not as much since it is heavily slanted to CPU clocking and the Dual BIOs doesn't have the jumper switch.

Z370 Pro Carbon review with Prime95 29.3 AVX2
( Enhanced Turbo ON + CPU Voltage 1.25V)



The lack of a heatpipe holds it back, especially when no airflow is applied.


Spoiler: LLC levels







Peak power per review is 194W under enhanced turbo (average under enhanced turbo was 168W)
This is likely at the wall ("※ In case of power consumption, we measured the average value (Watt) and maximum value (Peak Watt) of the data value obtained from the Wattman tester.")

http://playwares.com/pcreview/55896980

Asrock Z370 Extreme4 results with Prime95 AVX2





Spoiler: LLC levels







_Notable how the lack of the heatpipe creates a high temperature_

MCE on with AVX offset -1

Peak power draw 219W , average 192W
http://playwares.com/pcreview/55901205#

* BIOS 1.22 dated 2017/11/21 (used in review) is superseded by 1.30 dated 11/30

Maximus X Hero -- Prime95 29.3 AVX2 results

MCE on (power draw 205W average , 230W peak)



4.9GHz @1.3V (power draw 202W average, 241W peak)





Spoiler: LLC levels







http://playwares.com/pcreview/55640877#

* BIOs 505 not the current 802

MSI Godlike -- Prime95 29.3 AVX2 result

Enhanced Turbo on


(Average power 210W, Peak power draw 244W)

4.9GHz , 1.3V


(Average power 219W, Peak power draw 247W )

http://playwares.com/pcreview/55619810#

* doesn't include the 7A98vA2 BIOS update dated October 30

Gigabyte Z370 Aorus Gaming 3


Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!







http://www.xfastest.com/thread-203112-1-1.html


----------



## Leoplate25

Then... Which one has the best and coolest VRM's? In which position do you put the Aorus Gaming 5 and 7? Thanks!


----------



## doresu

Which one of the two has the stronger power delivery - Z370m PRO4 or Z370 ITX/ac? (both Asrock). From what I've gathered, mATX one has weaker mosfets but they're doubled, whilist ITX has relatively strong 60A mosfets but there's only 4 of them (Fatality version has 5). Also noticed that ITX ver. has better capacitors. Looking to pair them with an 8700 w/ BCLK at 102.5.


----------



## sherpa25

That extreme4 surely is hot. Any tests for the MSI SLI Plus too, @AlphaC? Still waiting for these two to be available over here, but those extreme4 temps vs the other mid-range mobo’s are worrying me, especially as I’m in a tropical place and plan to run only in air, should I?


----------



## freaky35

Oh boy Those temps vrm's of The extreme 4, Thats The mobo I have.

I am really going tho change The mobo, What mobo is The best? Vrm and vrm cooling?


----------



## aliquiswe

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AlphaC*
> 
> Some thermal results from overclockers.ua , LinX 0.7.3 testing (AVX)
> 
> Z370-E STRIX https://www.overclockers.ua/motherboard/asus-rog-strix-z370-e-gaming/3/
> K6 https://www.overclockers.ua/motherboard/asrock-fatal1ty-z370-gaming-k6/3/
> Pro Carbon (ATX) https://www.overclockers.ua/motherboard/msi-z370-gaming-pro-carbon-ac/3/
> APEX https://www.overclockers.ua/motherboard/asus-rog-maximus-X-apex/3/
> Z370-I STRIX https://www.overclockers.ua/motherboard/asus-rog-strix-z370-i-gaming/3/


Is Pro Carbon AC / Gaming M5 (especially the later but .. it seem no different? I don't understand why it's more expensive with less features!) better than the E/F Strix for VRM?

When the A Prime doesn't have the same components as the Strix E/F is it worse then? I want to say "by how much" but what I mean is the stats not some compared number. I couldn't find the datasheets for that without paying.

(1 euro = 10 sek now.)
I got F Strix for 1499, Gaming M5 for 1699 and could had gotten and ordered but removed because they don't allow free returns and I didn't knew whatever they would accept to wait for me to decide whatever I wanted it the K6 for 1799.

I of course want all the features of the K6 and I think it looks very nice. I think the A Prime look the best of the rest because then I would had gone with white Corsair Vengeance RGBs ahd white Chromax cover from Noctua in a white Corsair 570X or so.. At-least I think that would had been pretty nice









Sadly what I got delivered now is the F Strix (and Gaming M5) which are both very dark and the black Vengeance RGB though I definitely think the Trident Z RGB look better. But white Vengeance is white and as far as it got RGB light white looks nice, the A Prime both is the better looker and have the light strip below which make it look better plus it's also cheaper even though it wouldn't had been cheaper for me (1890 normal price I think.)
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *sherpa25*
> 
> That extreme4 surely is hot. Any tests for the MSI SLI Plus too, @AlphaC? Still waiting for these two to be available over here, but those extreme4 temps vs the other mid-range mobo's are worrying me, especially as I'm in a tropical place and plan to run only in air, should I?


I haven't understood the purpose of the heat-pipe between the VRM heat-sinks, except that too is a piece of copper. Or well, I understand it could equalize things between them but I figure there's VRM under both heat-sinks so shouldn't they have about the same load and temps anyway?

Over here the Extreme4 is 1690 and the K6 is 1999 but it was 1799 last weekend. The K6 has the heat-pipe, dual LAN and Fatal1ty software package (but somewhat worse audio quality.) For that small price difference you would at-least get the heat-pipe in case that helps (there was a picture of the K6 too right?)
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *freaky35*
> 
> Oh boy Those temps vrm's of The extreme 4, Thats The mobo I have.
> 
> I am really going tho change The mobo, What mobo is The best? Vrm and vrm cooling?


The ASUS Hero or whatever board had lower temps at-least. Does the temp really matter all that much as long as it's not too much?
For the Strix F/E boards Asus include a fan-holder so one can mount a 4 cm fan over the VRM, they also include files so one can 3D print a mount for one over the M.2 drive (maybe just one of them though) and covers (and combs) for the cables if one want that.
So even if temps normally would be the same at-least one can put a fan there to improve things.


----------



## kongasdf

Excuse me, uP9508 is a 3+2 PWM IC
https://www.upi-semi.com/en-article-upi-362-1828


Which one is right?


Korean said it is a 3+2 PWM IC
http://hwtips.tistory.com/2446


MSI Z370 Krait Gaming use uP9508 IC as same as Z270 Krait
http://www.coolpc.com.tw/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=70&t=243584&sid=d47ad0531a51cede91c682119ef93880


----------



## asdkj1740

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kongasdf*
> 
> Excuse me, uP9508 is a 3+2 PWM IC
> https://www.upi-semi.com/en-article-upi-362-1828
> 
> 
> Which one is right?
> 
> 
> Korean said it is a 3+2 PWM IC
> http://hwtips.tistory.com/2446
> 
> 
> MSI Z370 Krait Gaming use uP9508 IC as same as Z270 Krait
> http://www.coolpc.com.tw/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=70&t=243584&sid=d47ad0531a51cede91c682119ef93880


its like reference design (up9508) vs non reference design (up9508q).
up9508 has 5 pins for connecting external drivers/drivers with doubling function. and up9508 is preassigned them to 3 for vcore and 2 for igpu.
the sum of vcore and igpu is 5 (=3+2), and it should be able to reassign to 4+1, given the same amount of pins of these two controller ic.

no official data support however, just a guess.


----------



## Leoplate25

Which motherboard has the best VRM's and temps? Please! Someone?!


----------



## aliquiswe

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Leoplate25*
> 
> Which motherboard has the best VRM's and temps? Please! Someone?!


I don't know but maybe the higher tier ROG boards, the Gaming 7 and the MSI Godlike can participate.

The Maximus X Hero and the Gaming 7 cost about as much.
The Maximus X Formula and MSI Godlike cost almost twice as much.

Are you in a need so strong paying twice as much is something to consider?

Will any of Biostar GT7 or EVGA board fit in too?

Kinda nice look: https://images.evga.com/articles/01151/header/header.png
EVGA Z370 Classified K
"Highly-Efficient 13 Phase Digital VRM"

http://www.biostar.com.tw/app/en/mb/introduction.php?S_ID=861
Is it 13 phases of 60A each on Z270 GT9?


----------



## Leoplate25

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *aliquiswe*
> 
> I don't know but maybe the higher tier ROG boards, the Gaming 7 and the MSI Godlike can participate.
> 
> The Maximus X Hero and the Gaming 7 cost about as much.
> The Maximus X Formula and MSI Godlike cost almost twice as much.
> 
> Are you in a need so strong paying twice as much is something to consider?
> 
> Will any of Biostar GT7 or EVGA board fit in too?
> 
> Kinda nice look: https://images.evga.com/articles/01151/header/header.png
> EVGA Z370 Classified K
> "Highly-Efficient 13 Phase Digital VRM"
> 
> http://www.biostar.com.tw/app/en/mb/introduction.php?S_ID=861
> Is it 13 phases of 60A each on Z270 GT9?


The EVGA is gorgeous. I bought the Gaming 5 (Aorus) and i'm waiting for my friend to bring me the non-k i7. I think i'll be fine, won't i? Thanks!


----------



## scracy

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Leoplate25*
> 
> Which motherboard has the best VRM's and temps? Please! Someone?!


Any of the "true ROG" boards are great, not the Strix stuff, Formula is really good


----------



## lemniscate

Performance wise, how would the hero compare to code/formula (other than the built in waterblock in formula of course)? Features wise hero looks quite similar to code other than the aesthetics. Currently debating between hero and apex, but code isn’t out of my budget either.


----------



## scracy

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *lemniscate*
> 
> Performance wise, how would the hero compare to code/formula (other than the built in waterblock in formula of course)? Features wise hero looks quite similar to code other than the aesthetics. Currently debating between hero and apex, but code isn't out of my budget either.


Performance as far as VRM's go would be similar on all the ROG boards, what makes the Apex special is in terms of memory overclocking it is probably the best of them all. If you want memory overclocking buy the Apex, if not the Hero has some of the lowest VRM temps going around


----------



## nimitz87

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Leoplate25*
> 
> The EVGA is gorgeous. I bought the Gaming 5 (Aorus) and i'm waiting for my friend to bring me the non-k i7. I think i'll be fine, won't i? Thanks!


why would it matter w/ a non K chip?


----------



## kevindd992002

@AlphaC

Still no VRM info on the Code and Formula?


----------



## Robilar

Someone should come out with something like these. I remember buying sets for my old EVGA boards. Copper heatsinks and active fan cooling. If there was a way to mount them on the VRM's, it might help.


----------



## lemniscate

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *scracy*
> 
> Performance as far as VRM's go would be similar on all the ROG boards, what makes the Apex special is in terms of memory overclocking it is probably the best of them all. If you want memory overclocking buy the Apex, if not the Hero has some of the lowest VRM temps going around


Thanks. Awesome build btw, I saw it in the coffee lake thread in news section.

I'm kind of on the fence about apex, I like the backlight style LEDs, but I don't like the DIMM2 slot for mounting M2 drives. Price wise somehow it's only like 20 bucks more expensive than hero here in Singapore, after considering the price difference between 2x16GB kits and 4x8GB kits it's pretty much a wash between the two options. Right now I'm probably leaning closer to getting hero, but having been out of touch with these stuffs for years I figured I should do some more research.


----------



## AlphaC

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kevindd992002*
> 
> @AlphaC
> 
> Still no VRM info on the Code and Formula?


There's no reason to believe they are using anything other than Infineon Optimos , so the only "issue" is the memory overclocking will be more on par with the Hero than the Apex. The other question is whether they're using an interleaved setup as on the Apex or if it's just dual drivers.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Robilar*
> 
> Someone should come out with something like these. I remember buying sets for my old EVGA boards. Copper heatsinks and active fan cooling. If there was a way to mount them on the VRM's, it might help.


If you look at Enzotech's datasheet, you would still need airflow


Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!








About 1000RPM from a good 120mm fan is ~ 160LFM airflow with restrictions
About 800RPM from a good 140mm fan with restrictions
(150LFM is roughly 18CFM from a 120mm fan of 60mm radius ; ~25CFM from a 140mm fan)

Factoring in thermal tape


For Enzotech's MOS-C1 with 3M 8815 thermal tape (1.20 °C-in^2/W or 7.7 °C-cm^2/W)
factoring in 6.5x6.5mm:
_7.7 °C-cm^2/W /0.4225 cm^2_
we end up with ~18.22 °C/W for the thermal tape (https://multimedia.3m.com/mws/media/122119O/3m-thermally-conductive-adhesive-transfer-tapes-8800-series.pdf)

For Fujipoly GR-d:


Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!




units are K-cm2/W (K-in2/W)



Per aavid thermal solutions , interface thermal resistance = interface thickness (in mm) * 1000 /( (thermal conductivity in W/mK) *(contact area in sq mm))


Spoiler: Checking sanity for 0.6 W/m-K 3M tapes such as 8810 or 8815 :



For 8810 tape which is 0.25mm thickness : 0.25mm * 1000 / (0.6 W/m-K * 42.25 mm^2) = 9.86°C/W
For 8815 tape which is 0.375 mm thickness : 0.375mm * 1000 / (0.6 W/m-K * 42.25 mm^2) = 14.79 °C/W
_Factoring in the typical SO-8 mosfet casing size of 5x6mm :_
For 8815 tape which is 0.375 mm thickness : 0.375mm * 1000 / (0.6 W/m-K * 30 mm^2) = 20.83 °C/W





Spoiler: Checking sanity for a 1.5 W/m-K Fujipoly GR-d



assuming 0.8mm full thickness and 5x6mm package size --> 20.5°C/W ; ~17.8°C/W if you go by matweb's reference 1.5W/m-K
assuming 0.375mm thickness and 5x6mm package size --> 9.6°C/W ; ~8.33 °C/W if you go by matweb's reference 1.5W/m-K

Second reference http://www.matweb.com/search/datasheet.aspx?matguid=af58afa4cc0144d089824c5df93b049a&ckck=1



you add that to the thermal resistance of the mosfet itself and multiply by the efficiency

So assuming a typical midrange 88-89% efficient VRM (assuming V_GS=10V) with 4°C/W thermal resistance to mosfet case:
Total R_thetaJA = R_thetaJC+R_thetaCS+R_thetaSA where R_thetaCS = thermal interface and R_thetaSA is the thermal resistance of the heatsink to the air (a function of airflow and the heatsink fins and material)
= 4°C/W + 18.22°C/W + 16°C/W
= *38.22°C/W*

Assuming board temp of 30°C , mosfet temperature would be 30°C+*38.22*°C/W * (P_loss) = 30 +*38.22°C/W* * 2.25W = 115°C
---> Assuming 16.25A output per phase (i.e. 8 mosfets) or about 130 A , or about 18.5A input ---> about 170 - 180W power consumed by CPU
_However, the high side fet and low side fet are separate_
i.e. for the SLI PLUS it's more like 1.83W for the high side , which means ~100°C ---- note that the QN3103 and QN3107 range from 2.5-2.7°C/W junction to case thermal resistance so this means a few degrees lower in reality (this is already factoring in dual driver mode)
i.e. for a Asus /Gigabyte G5 board using OnSemi components it's more like 1.31W for the low side , which means ~ 80°C (if it's a dual driver solution it's worse)
i.e. for an ASUS Vishay board it's more like 1.27W for the low side, which means ~ 79°C (if it's a dual driver solution it's worse)
i.e. for the Pro carbon it's more like 1.07W for the high side , which means ~ 71°C (if it's a dual driver solution it's worse)

With thermal resistance of 5 C/W or 6 C/W for the mosfets there's at most a few degrees difference but something more efficient reduces the power loss.

With a 90-92% efficient VRM and 10 dual-N mosfets for the CPU you'd end up with something more like 13A output per phase which is a much lower ~ 1.13A loss or ~ 1.582W of power loss per mosfet which means you get:
30°C+*38.22*°C/W * (P_loss) = 30 +*38.22°C/W* * 1.582W = ~ 90°C
---> Using data calculated from spreadsheets , the total power loss for the K6 high side is 0.68W and 1.04W for the low side which means ~1.72W total but under normal operation both the high side and low side are not on at the same time. _Temperature should be around 55°C based on high side losses and factoring in 4.9°C thermal resistance to case for the low side mosfet (Fairchild), about 71°C for the low side._ It should not exceed 98°C even accounting for the high +low side (it's a dual-N mosfet) on the same heatsink.
----> Sinopower variant should have 0.83W for high side losses and 0.89W for low side resulting in about 62°C based on high side losses / low side losses. It should not exceed 96°C even accounting for both high+low side (it's a dual-N mosfet) on the same heatsink.
---> Using data calculated from spreadsheets , the total power loss for the Taichi high side is 0.58W and 0.68W per low side but since they're dual-N mosfets which means 1.26W in total for both channels (due to interleaving it is less lossy). _Temperature should be around 53°C for the high side portion and around 56°C for the low side portion_. Even if you account both high+low side fet in total on the same heatsink (it's a dual-N mosfet), it should not exceed 78°C or so.
---> Sinopower version of Taichi should be along the lines of 0.76W losses for the high side and 0.71W losses for the low side. Temperature would be roughly 59°C for the high side and 56°C for the low side. If we factor in the Dual-N mosfet using a single heatsink for both high+low side you'd end up with 86°C or so. This is the main reason why I have ranked the Sinopower variant a bit lower.

Granted 30-something thermal resistance is not the best , it is still massively lower than the R_thetaJC the Powerpaks normally have which can be 50°C/W or even something higher along the lines of 75°C/W. The R_thetaJA of Gaming 7's Intersil smart power stages is around 10 °C/W (albeit R_thetaJC=4°C/W).

While the Infineon 50A Optimos also appears to have 4°C/W thermal resistance to mosfet case, it is also less lossy. The thermal resistances are roughly on par with the Fairchild Dual-N mosfets but the Fairchild mosfets are decisively less potent per mosfet. We see the result of this in the comparison of the Maximus X hero & Apex (interleaved 8 phase Optimos) to the Powerpak solutions: they can take a lot of abuse even without any real airflow.

The Fairchild Dual-N solution on the Asrock boards appears to fare decently with a heatpiped heatsink to spread the heat load across more heatsink area. Without airflow (the playwares test used Prime95 with no CPU cooler airflow or case airflow) and without that heatsink area, I believe that is what causes the Extreme4 to heat soak to over 90°C. A definitive test would be to use an Extreme4 board and pair it with the Enzotech MOS C1 heatsinks. You'd still be out ahead monetarily vs other midrange boards: one set is 10 heatsinks (which is how many you need for the CPU section) and runs ~$15 USD. For the other boards you'd need 2 sets of 10 since 8 sets of mosfets is 16 heatsinks.









The Gigabyte Gaming 7 on the other hand appears to be an indictment of the RGB heatsink. People with supposedly faulty heatsink contact are dropping upwards of 40-50 degrees Celsius just by screwing their heatsink in...

What if we don't use the Enzotech MOS-C1 and opt for a heatsink that covers multiple mosfets?

On the Z370 Extreme4 , there's 6 mosfets at the left side of the board. The heatsink (not including thermal tape or pad) would need to be 6 times effective or below 3°C/W thermal resistance for 6 mosfets at the same 150ish LFM airflow. There's actually about 19W of heat after including minor losses for all 10 mosfets when accounting for ~ 180W power output.

The Pro Carbon has 6 sets of mosfets at the left side covered by the silver-ish topped two part heatsink. It would have to dissipate about 18W heat in total albeit each high side mosfet has more losses. There's only 2 of 8 sets on the top VRM heatsink.

The Gigabyte Gaming 5 has a similar layout but is linked by heatpipe joining the two VRM heatsinks. 6 sets of mosfets are at the left side and two more on the top VRM heatsink.

STRIX E /F boards have fairly substantial heatsinks even if they are not linked together by a heatpipe. There's 6 sets of mosfets at the left side and two more on the top VRM heatsink.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Clausewitz*
> 
> AlphaC, how are the EVGA boards?


No data on the actual components anywhere, but since they're Infineon 35A integrated driver + high/low side they can't be that terrible
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *freaky35*
> 
> will these heatsinks work?I I want to try these,because a new mobo would be alot more,and if thse things help.I own extreme 4


Unless you are pushing over 180W through your VRM with no airflow I believe you'll be fine. Just keep an eye on the VRM temperature.

The problem with using heatsinks attached by thermal tape is mounting pressure can be lower. The datasheet is based off of the standardized mounting pressure, which is 50psi .


I missed this post earlier...


Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!



Quote:


> Originally Posted by *aliquiswe*
> 
> Is Pro Carbon AC / Gaming M5 (especially the later but .. it seem no different? I don't understand why it's more expensive with less features!) better than the E/F Strix for VRM?
> 
> When the A Prime doesn't have the same components as the Strix E/F is it worse then? I want to say "by how much" but what I mean is the stats not some compared number. I couldn't find the datasheets for that without paying.
> 
> (1 euro = 10 sek now.)
> I got F Strix for 1499, Gaming M5 for 1699 and could had gotten and ordered but removed because they don't allow free returns and I didn't knew whatever they would accept to wait for me to decide whatever I wanted it the K6 for 1799.
> 
> I of course want all the features of the K6 and I think it looks very nice. I think the A Prime look the best of the rest because then I would had gone with white Corsair Vengeance RGBs ahd white Chromax cover from Noctua in a white Corsair 570X or so.. At-least I think that would had been pretty nice
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sadly what I got delivered now is the F Strix (and Gaming M5) which are both very dark and the black Vengeance RGB though I definitely think the Trident Z RGB look better. But white Vengeance is white and as far as it got RGB light white looks nice, the A Prime both is the better looker and have the light strip below which make it look better plus it's also cheaper even though it wouldn't had been cheaper for me (1890 normal price I think.)
> I haven't understood the purpose of the heat-pipe between the VRM heat-sinks, except that too is a piece of copper. Or well, I understand it could equalize things between them but I figure there's VRM under both heat-sinks so shouldn't they have about the same load and temps anyway?
> 
> Over here the Extreme4 is 1690 and the K6 is 1999 but it was 1799 last weekend. The K6 has the heat-pipe, dual LAN and Fatal1ty software package (but somewhat worse audio quality.) For that small price difference you would at-least get the heat-pipe in case that helps (there was a picture of the K6 too right?)
> The ASUS Hero or whatever board had lower temps at-least. Does the temp really matter all that much as long as it's not too much?
> For the Strix F/E boards Asus include a fan-holder so one can mount a 4 cm fan over the VRM, they also include files so one can 3D print a mount for one over the M.2 drive (maybe just one of them though) and covers (and combs) for the cables if one want that.
> So even if temps normally would be the same at-least one can put a fan there to improve things.





A heatpipe is to increase fin area. An iGPU isn't going to load the heatsink as much as a CPU. By linking the two VRM heatsinks together, you have close to double the fin area for the heatsink.

I can't comment on appearances, but the MSI M5 has a more substantial heatsink than the Pro Carbon. It also appears to be one piece rather than two pieces of metal pasted together.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *sherpa25*
> 
> That extreme4 surely is hot. Any tests for the MSI SLI Plus too, @AlphaC? Still waiting for these two to be available over here, but those extreme4 temps vs the other mid-range mobo's are worrying me, especially as I'm in a tropical place and plan to run only in air, should I?


Nothing thermally on MSI Z370 SLI PLUS yet but I wouldn't think that it has amazing results based on the component selection. Even if the thermal resistance to the heatsink is lower than the Onsemi variant it is also more lossy and with slower switching times.


----------



## Clausewitz

AlphaC, how are the EVGA boards?


----------



## freaky35

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AlphaC*
> 
> There's no reason to believe they are using anything other than Infineon Optimos , so the only "issue" is the memory overclocking will be more on par with the Hero than the Apex. The other question is whether they're using an interleaved setup as on the Apex or if it's just dual drivers.
> If you look at Enzotech's datasheet, you would still need airflow
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> About 1000RPM from a good 120mm fan is ~ 160LFM airflow with restrictions
> About 800RPM from a good 140mm fan with restrictions
> (150LFM is roughly 18CFM from a 120mm fan of 60mm radius ; ~25CFM from a 140mm fan)
> 
> Factoring in thermal tape
> 
> 
> For Enzotech's MOS-C1 with 3M 8815 thermal tape (1.20 °C-in^2/W or 7.7 °C-cm^2/W)
> factoring in 6.5x6.5mm:
> _7.7 °C-cm^2/W /0.4225 cm^2_
> we end up with ~18.22 °C/W for the thermal tape (https://multimedia.3m.com/mws/media/122119O/3m-thermally-conductive-adhesive-transfer-tapes-8800-series.pdf)
> 
> you add that to the thermal resistance of the mosfet itself and multiply by the efficiency
> 
> So assuming a typical midrange 88-89% efficient VRM (assuming V_GS=10V) with 4°C/W thermal resistance to mosfet case:
> Total R_thetaJA = R_thetaJC+R_thetaCS+R_thetaSA where R_thetaCS = thermal interface and R_thetaSA is the thermal resistance of the heatsink to the air (a function of airflow and the heatsink fins and material)
> = 4°C/W + 18.22°C/W + 16°C/W
> = *38.22°C/W*
> 
> Assuming board temp of 30°C , mosfet temperature would be 30°C+*38.22*°C/W * (P_loss) = 30 +*38.22°C/W* * 2.25W = 115°C
> ---> Assuming 16.25A output per phase (i.e. 8 mosfets) or about 130 A , or about 18.5A input ---> about 170 - 180W power consumed by CPU
> _However, the high side fet and low side fet are separate_
> i.e. for the SLI PLUS it's more like 1.83W for the high side , which means ~100°C
> i.e. for a Asus /Gigabyte G5 board using OnSemi components it's more like 1.31W for the low side , which means ~ 80°C
> i.e. for an ASUS Vishay board it's more like 1.27W for the low side, which means ~ 79°C
> i.e. for the Pro carbon it's more like 1.07W for the high side , which means ~ 71°C
> 
> With thermal resistance of 5 C/W or 6 C/W for the mosfets there's at most a few degrees difference but something more efficient reduces the power loss.
> 
> With a 90-92% efficient VRM and 10 dual-N mosfets for the CPU you'd end up with something more like 13A output per phase which is a much lower ~ 1.13A loss or ~ 1.582W of power loss per mosfet which means you get:
> 30°C+*38.22*°C/W * (P_loss) = 30 +*38.22°C/W* * 1.582W = ~ 90°C
> ---> Using data calculated from spreadsheets , the total power loss for the K6 high side is 0.68W and 1.04W for the low side which means ~1.72W total but under normal operation both the high side and low side are not on at the same time. _Temperature should be around 55°C based on high side losses and factoring in 2°C thermal resistance to case for the low side mosfet, about 68°C for the low side._ It should not exceed 96°C even accounting for the high +low side on the same heatsink.
> ---> Using data calculated from spreadsheets , the total power loss for the Taichi high side is 0.58W and 0.68W per low side but since they're dual-N mosfets which means 1.26W in total for both channels (due to interleaving it is less lossy). _Temperature should be around 52°C for the high side portion and around 54°C for the low side portion_. Even if you account both high+low side fet in total on the same heatsink, it should not exceed 78°C or so.
> 
> Granted 30-something thermal resistance is not the best , it is still massively lower than the R_thetaJC the Powerpaks normally have which can be 50°C/W or even something higher along the lines of 75°C/W. The R_thetaJA of Gaming 7's Intersil smart power stages is around 10 °C/W (albeit R_thetaJC=4°C/W).
> 
> While the Infineon 50A Optimos also appears to have 4°C/W thermal resistance to mosfet case, it is also less lossy. The thermal resistances are roughly on par with the Fairchild Dual-N mosfets but the Fairchild mosfets are decisively less potent per mosfet. We see the result of this in the comparison of the Maximus X hero & Apex (interleaved 8 phase Optimos) to the Powerpak solutions: they can take a lot of abuse even without any real airflow.
> 
> The Fairchild Dual-N solution on the Asrock boards appears to fare decently with a heatpiped heatsink to spread the heat load across more heatsink area. Without airflow (the playwares test used Prime95 with no CPU cooler airflow or case airflow) and without that heatsink area, I believe that is what causes the Extreme4 to heat soak to over 90°C. A definitive test would be to use an Extreme4 board and pair it with the Enzotech MOS C1 heatsinks. You'd still be out ahead monetarily vs other midrange boards: one set is 10 heatsinks (which is how many you need for the CPU section) and runs ~$15 USD. For the other boards you'd need 2 sets of 10 since 8 sets of mosfets is 16 heatsinks.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Gigabyte Gaming 7 on the other hand appears to be an indictment of the RGB heatsink. People with supposedly faulty heatsink contact are dropping upwards of 40-50 degrees Celsius just by screwing their heatsink in...
> 
> No data on the actual components anywhere, but since they're Infineon 35A integrated driver + high/low side they can't be that terrible


Will these heatsinks work?I I want to try these, because a new mobo would be alot more,and if these things help that would be great

I own extreme 4. I have mounted a aircooler (d15 noctua )

The middle fan is mounted very low,to cool te lowest heatpipes so the fan also cools down the vrm.s?,I got 2 fans on it

Will it help to mount a third fan on it?


----------



## aliquiswe

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Robilar*
> 
> Someone should come out with something like these. I remember buying sets for my old EVGA boards. Copper heatsinks and active fan cooling. If there was a way to mount them on the VRM's, it might help.


Gigabyte Gaming 7:


ASUS A Prime, Strix F, Strix E (fan not included):


My AM2 or AM2+ motherboard have this:


But it make noise and some temperature got higher with it so I don't use it.


----------



## HKPolice

MSI Z370i gaming pro carbon ITX board has 6 phase (doubled from 3) Ubiq QM3816N6 mosfets. Could we update the chart?

https://www.chiphell.com/thread-1801408-1-1.html

http://www.ubiq-semi.com/files/1875/e4b0aa1e-92e0-11e7-881a-c4cbaf091d7a

How do these fets compare to more commonly used models?


----------



## Leoplate25

Hi, i think this is an offtopic question and i need some advise. The voltage on the aorus gaming 5 is fixed at 1.2v. I have an i7 8700 non k and i think this voltage is a little bit high. Can i set it to adaptive and everything on auto or which config should i use? Thanks!


----------



## AlphaC

Interesting graph:

http://www.tomshardware.fr/articles/comparatif-cpu-amd-intel-processeurs,2-8-19.html
(motherboard used was Z370 Pro Carbon)

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *HKPolice*
> 
> MSI Z370i gaming pro carbon ITX board has 6 phase (doubled from 3) Ubiq QM3816N6 mosfets. Could we update the chart?
> 
> https://www.chiphell.com/thread-1801408-1-1.html
> 
> http://www.ubiq-semi.com/files/1875/e4b0aa1e-92e0-11e7-881a-c4cbaf091d7a
> 
> How do these fets compare to more commonly used models?


They are really slow as noted earlier with 37.7ns typical rise time. Even with the Enzotech copper heatsinks as mentioned earlier they should still hit ~105°C at around 160W load due to the high side portion.
If it's truly doubled to 6 phases rather than dual driver mode they'd still be only on par with a Z370 Krait Gaming or so (at best). The low side isn't very lossy but at the same time there's only 6 mosfets on an ITX PCB with minimal fin area.

If you want to buy an ITX Z370 board the only choice truly worth looking at _with AVX considered_ is the Z370 Fata1ty ITX.

In terms of high side fet *speed* (which would matter more for low loads such as gaming) I would probably say something along the lines of
Fast

ASUS ROG APEX ~ 5ns rise time , but keep in mind the IR3599 doubler has a 8.4ns transition time (for rise)
Asus ROG Code/Formula ~ 5ns rise time <--- ROG Hero here too depending on the dual driver used , otherwise it should be above where the STRIX-E is
Gigabyte Gaming 7 , Asrock Fatal1ty ITX ---- presumably here based on > 94% efficiency for 1.35V outputs ; ISL6617 doubler on the Gaming 7 has a *4.5ns* PWMA/B Low to High Rise Time
Asrock Z370 Taichi with Fairchild fets --- 2ns typical rise time, 10ns max rise time and the ISL6596 driver has 8.0ns UGATE rise time
Asrock Z370 K6 with Fairchild fets (also Extreme4 with Fairchild fets) --- 2ns typical rise time, 10ns max rise time and the ISL6596 driver has 8.0ns UGATE rise time
Average

Asrock Z370 Extreme4 with Sinopower Dual-N fets (9.6ns rise typical , 19ns rise max) and the ISL6596 driver has 8.0ns UGATE rise time
ASUS STRIX-E/F/G (8ns rise "typical" , 19ns rise max) , after factoring in the Richtek RT9624C dual driver 25ns output rise time supposedly used it isn't as impressive
STRIX ITX = 19.5ns typical rise time
Biostar GT6 Sinopower (normal PowerPaks with 13ns typical rise time and 24ns max rise time) --- ISL6208 driver used has UGATE output 8ns rise time
Asus Z370-A with Onsemi ~28ns rise time with the Richtek RT9624C dual driver supposedly 25ns output rise time
Gigabyte Gaming 5 / MSI M5 with OnSemi Powerpaks (~26ns rise) --- the GBT Gaming5's ISL6625 dual driver has a 32ns rise time
Slow

MSI Pro Carbon Onsemi Powerpaks ~26ns rise time ; up1962 dual driver = 35-45ns output rise time
MSI Pro Carbon ITX ... 37.7ns rise time on mosfet ; up1962 dual driver = 35-45ns output rise time
MSI SLI PLUS ... 43ns rise time on mosfet ; up1962 dual driver = 35-45ns output rise time

Z370 Ultra Gaming
Quote:


> However, it's important to note that you get what you pay for and there is some cost cutting on the Z370 Aorus Ultra Gaming. The PCB is flimsy feeling. It's not as warped as say ASRock's cheaper boards are, but it is thin. The heat sink behind the CPU socket ends up getting covered up by the I/O panel shroud which creates an oven. In my testing, this heat-sink measured temperatures in excess of 150F when the CPU was overclocked. The heatsink design isn't really all that bad as the other MOSFET cooler sat in the 130F range most of the time. These are also secured via mounting screws instead of plastic pins with spring tensioners in these.


https://www.hardocp.com/article/2017/11/27/gigabyte_z370_aorus_ultra_gaming_motherboard_review/7
I don't know how they can conclude it isn't that bad since there was no mention of AVX. Even if 150F rather than 150°C, it's still 66°C and there was no mention of airflow utilized or the loading methodology.

TUF Plus with Vishay SiRA14 + SiRA12


Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!






http://quasarzone.co.kr/bbs/board.php?bo_table=qc_qsz&wr_id=121035

Maximus X Hero review


Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!






http://pcnews.ru/articles/materinskaa_plata_asus_rog_maximus_x_hero_na_cipsete_intel_z370_model_s_bolsim_naborom_dopolnitelnyh_vozmoznostej-805916.html


----------



## ezveedub

Anyone know what this chip is on the Aorus Z370 Gaming 5? The stock VRM heatsink covers this, but the EK Monoblock doesn't and it's left open on the mobo.


----------



## asdkj1740

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ezveedub*
> 
> Anyone know what this chip is on the Aorus Z370 Gaming 5? The stock VRM heatsink covers this, but the EK Monoblock doesn't and it's left open on the mobo.


dont need to be covered, no worries.
it is ISL95866, a vrm controller.


----------



## jlp0209

Swapped out a Gigabyte Z370 Gaming 7 with an Asus Z370 Maximus Hero non-wifi and compared VRM temps, for what my (extremely) non-scientific and lay methods are worth. Vcore and 8700K CPU on both boards set to 1.248v (approximately, per HWinfo) and 4.8ghz. XMP profile for 3000mhz RAM. Test used was the most stressful Prime95 28.1 small ffp fma3.

Gaming 7 prior to heatsink screw tightening: 96 degrees after 60 minutes
Gaming 7 after heatsink screw tightening: 84 degrees after 15 minutes

Maximus X Hero: 74 degrees after 60 minutes of testing.

Extremely unrealistic work load re: this test, so ultimately both boards are fine. But who knows if something will get worse over the course of time with my Gaming 7. My sensors may be broken too because the vanishing readings happened in HWinfo and OCCT, appeared fine in 1 of GB's own monitoring apps. This doesn't happen and has never happened to me with Asus boards. I tried contacting Gigabyte support but the response time was a few days for email support and I also waited on hold for forever and eventually hung up. I've always gotten right through when dealing with Asus support. Was a fun experiment but very glad to be back with Asus. Hero 8 and 9 were solid for me, 10 is as well.


----------



## scracy

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *jlp0209*
> 
> Swapped out a Gigabyte Z370 Gaming 7 with an Asus Z370 Maximus Hero non-wifi and compared VRM temps, for what my (extremely) non-scientific and lay methods are worth. Vcore and 8700K CPU on both boards set to 1.248v (approximately, per HWinfo) and 4.8ghz. XMP profile for 3000mhz RAM. Test used was the most stressful Prime95 28.1 small ffp fma3.
> 
> Gaming 7 prior to heatsink screw tightening: 96 degrees after 60 minutes
> Gaming 7 after heatsink screw tightening: 84 degrees after 15 minutes
> 
> Maximus X Hero: 74 degrees after 60 minutes of testing.
> 
> Extremely unrealistic work load re: this test, so ultimately both boards are fine. But who knows if something will get worse over the course of time with my Gaming 7. My sensors may be broken too because the vanishing readings happened in HWinfo and OCCT, appeared fine in 1 of GB's own monitoring apps. This doesn't happen and has never happened to me with Asus boards. I tried contacting Gigabyte support but the response time was a few days for email support and I also waited on hold for forever and eventually hung up. I've always gotten right through when dealing with Asus support. Was a fun experiment but very glad to be back with Asus. Hero 8 and 9 were solid for me, 10 is as well.


Cant say that I have ever experienced anything good with Gigabyte personally







never had an issue with a true ROG board except some dodgy early UEFI issues particularly adaptive voltage never seems to work properly until after a couple of updates.


----------



## bloot

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *jlp0209*
> 
> Swapped out a Gigabyte Z370 Gaming 7 with an Asus Z370 Maximus Hero non-wifi and compared VRM temps, for what my (extremely) non-scientific and lay methods are worth. Vcore and 8700K CPU on both boards set to 1.248v (approximately, per HWinfo) and 4.8ghz. XMP profile for 3000mhz RAM. Test used was the most stressful Prime95 28.1 small ffp fma3.
> 
> Gaming 7 prior to heatsink screw tightening: 96 degrees after 60 minutes
> Gaming 7 after heatsink screw tightening: 84 degrees after 15 minutes
> 
> Maximus X Hero: 74 degrees after 60 minutes of testing.
> 
> Extremely unrealistic work load re: this test, so ultimately both boards are fine. But who knows if something will get worse over the course of time with my Gaming 7. My sensors may be broken too because the vanishing readings happened in HWinfo and OCCT, appeared fine in 1 of GB's own monitoring apps. This doesn't happen and has never happened to me with Asus boards. I tried contacting Gigabyte support but the response time was a few days for email support and I also waited on hold for forever and eventually hung up. I've always gotten right through when dealing with Asus support. Was a fun experiment but very glad to be back with Asus. Hero 8 and 9 were solid for me, 10 is as well.


How are you measuring vrm temp on the Maximus?


----------



## jlp0209

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bloot*
> 
> How are you measuring vrm temp on the Maximus?


Using HWinfo64:


----------



## bloot

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *jlp0209*
> 
> Using HWinfo64:


Weird. I have no vrm temp sensor on my Maximus X Hero non wifi version :/

Did you have to do anything special to have that reading? Which BIOS version are you on? Did you change any switch on the MB? Does the VRM temp show in the BIOS? I'm kinda lost, don't know why my VRM temp sensor isn't showing up.


----------



## jlp0209

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bloot*
> 
> Weird. I have no vrm temp sensor on my Maximus X Hero non wifi version :/
> 
> Did you have to do anything special to have that reading? Which BIOS version are you on? Did you change any switch on the MB? Does the VRM temp show in the BIOS? I'm kinda lost, don't know why my VRM temp sensor isn't showing up.


No I didn't adjust anything. I'm using bios version 0802. I just updated to the latest HWinfo version, 5.70-3300, maybe that is it? VRM temp doesn't show up in my bios. Maybe try going into settings of HWinfo and re-configure the layout / sensors? You can also try clicking on "restore original order" within the layout settings, maybe that will work?


----------



## bloot

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *jlp0209*
> 
> No I didn't adjust anything. I'm using bios version 0802. I just updated to the latest HWinfo version, 5.70-3300, maybe that is it? VRM temp doesn't show up in my bios. Maybe try going into settings of HWinfo and re-configure the layout / sensors? You can also try clicking on "restore original order" within the layout settings, maybe that will work?


Thanks, but I already tried wipping hwinfo settings, restoring original order etc... I can only think of a clean Windows install lol

I don't know why some Hero boards don't provide a VRM temp sensor :S


----------



## jlp0209

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bloot*
> 
> Thanks, but I already tried wipping hwinfo settings, restoring original order etc... I can only think of a clean Windows install lol
> 
> I don't know why some Hero boards don't provide a VRM temp sensor :S


Hmm, I have no idea then why it shows up on mine, sorry :/


----------



## AlphaC

Z370 Gaming 3 , AIDA64 FPU = ~ 156W
4.8GHz 1.2V


http://www.expreview.com/58167-3.html


----------



## Leoplate25

Hi! A friend is asking me about the Gigabyte Z370 Aorus Ultra Gaming to use with a non k 8700, is ti going to be enough to handle the CPU?


----------



## TeslaHUN

I need advice , wich is the best mobo atm for 8700k ? I mean the mid price range ,not the expensive motherboards . Im planning 4,7/ 4,8 overclock for all core . Noctua D15S - no delid.


----------



## webhito

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *TeslaHUN*
> 
> I need advice , wich is the best mobo atm for 8700k ? I mean the mid price range ,not the expensive motherboards . Im planning 4,7/ 4,8 overclock for all core . Noctua D15S - no delid.


The extreme4 is a great board, its also cheap. But as has been mentioned, the vrm's seem to be running pretty toasty. Reaching 4.7-4.8 was a breeze with offset settings, hitting 5.0 was not, had to set it manually as it wanted much more than 1.35v to even enter windows. With fixed voltage its able to work at 1.25 with no issues whatsoever.


----------



## asdkj1740

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *TeslaHUN*
> 
> I need advice , wich is the best mobo atm for 8700k ? I mean the mid price range ,not the expensive motherboards . Im planning 4,7/ 4,8 overclock for all core . Noctua D15S - no delid.


msi godlike
asus apex
asrock taichi/gaming i7
gigabyte gaming 7

for ddr4 oc, apex is excellent.

edited: asrock taichi is not good enough among them


----------



## TeslaHUN

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *asdkj1740*
> 
> msi godlike
> asus apex
> asrock taichi/gaming i7
> gigabyte gaming 7
> 
> for ddr4 oc, apex is excellent.


All of those are expensive boards.... i need mid range not top priced mobo


----------



## asdkj1740

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *TeslaHUN*
> 
> All of those are expensive boards.... i need mid range not top priced mobo


for 4.8g under 1.3v, especially on gaming, every z370 can do it.

asrock extreme 4
asus prime a
evga ftw/micro atx


----------



## kd5151

https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?sdtid=11043783&SID=f7f03ebce11511e7bbde2a70558bfcd60INT&AID=10446076&PID=1225267&nm_mc=AFC-C8Junction&cm_mmc=AFC-C8Junction-Slickdeals%20LLC-_-na-_-na-_-na&Item=N82E16813119038D&cm_sp=

good deal. today only.


----------



## Bacnation

Could anyone help me understand the difference between the asrock gaming k6 and the taichi? Assuming they are the same price which is the best choice?


----------



## webhito

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Bacnation*
> 
> Could anyone help me understand the difference between the asrock gaming k6 and the taichi? Assuming they are the same price which is the best choice?


Side by side comparison: http://ddr4motherboard.com/compare/ASROCK-FATAL1TY-Z370-GAMING-K6-vs-ASROCK-Z370-TAICHI

Not sure about the differences vrm wise though, this thread should have info on them if you look around however.


----------



## Bacnation

Sorry I should have been more specific, I'm just trying to understand why the taichi is higher on the hierarchy compared to the K6 regarding VRMs. That is a cool website though, could be very helpful in my search when considering other features. Guess I'll keep combing through this thread for now.


----------



## AlphaC

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Bacnation*
> 
> Could anyone help me understand the difference between the asrock gaming k6 and the taichi? Assuming they are the same price which is the best choice?


Taichi. There's 10 drivers instead of 5 and more input filtering capacitors. What this means is the power will be "cleaner" (less ripple) going into the VRM , and there will be less loss and heat out of the VRM due to 10 PWM signals instead of 5. When using 5 PWM signals you end up with 2 mosfets switching on 1/5 of the time rather than 10 PWM signals switching on 1/10 of the time. The Taichi has half the load on the low side of the Dual channel mosfet as a result , since running dual driver mode doesn't result in half the amperage it just reduces the on state resistance in half.

https://ru.gecid.com/mboard/msi_z370_pc_pro/
Z370 PC PRO

Quote:


> the cooling heatsink of the chipset is 36.6 ° C;
> the upper radiator cooling elements of the processor's power supply subsystem - 42.9 ° C;
> side cooler cooling elements of the processor power subsystem - 46.3 ° C;
> chokes - 55,1 ° C.


Load = AIDA64 FPU at 3.9GHz 1.184V
Quote:


> As a result of manual overclocking, the operating frequency of the Intel Core i7-8700K test processor was 4800 MHz. To do this, in the BIOS the multiplier was increased to "x48". However, after a minute of AIDA64 stress test, the processor frequency drops to 3900 MHz at a voltage of 1.184 V.


Z370 Extreme4 with SM7341 again
http://quasarzone.co.kr/bbs/board.php?bo_table=qc_user&wr_id=15871 (same as http://playwares.com/userreview/55940059)


Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!







Z370M Pro4
http://playwares.com/userreview/55933758

seems to use the Sinopower SM4337+SM4336 combo


----------



## Bacnation

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AlphaC*
> 
> Taichi. There's 10 drivers instead of 5 and more input filtering capacitors. What this means is the power will be "cleaner" (less ripple) going into the VRM , and there will be less loss and heat out of the VRM due to 10 PWM signals instead of 5. When using 5 PWM signals you end up with 2 mosfets switching on 1/5 of the time rather than 10 PWM signals switching on 1/10 of the time. The Taichi has half the load on the low side of the Dual channel mosfet as a result , since running dual driver mode doesn't result in half the amperage it just reduces the on state resistance in half.


Wow thanks man! I really appreciate you taking the time to explain that to me, this is exactly what I was looking for.


----------



## Leoplate25

Hello! Anybody? The stock voltage for the i7-8700 (non k) on the Aorus Gaming 5 or 7 is 1.2v, how to decrease this value? Should i set the voltage to adaptive? I think is a little too high. Should i set to 1.1v or less or what should i do? Thanks in advance for the responses.


----------



## tashcz

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Leoplate25*
> 
> Hello! Anybody? The stock voltage for the i7-8700 (non k) on the Aorus Gaming 5 or 7 is 1.2v, how to decrease this value? Should i set the voltage to adaptive? I think is a little too high. Should i set to 1.1v or less or what should i do? Thanks in advance for the responses.


You can undervolt it for sure. Just set the vcore in BIOS. Don't go too low though, and test your stability, on 1 core and on all cores, since you might now be stable with it.

XMP + MCE off + undervolt should work fine.


----------



## Robilar

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Leoplate25*
> 
> Hello! Anybody? The stock voltage for the i7-8700 (non k) on the Aorus Gaming 5 or 7 is 1.2v, how to decrease this value? Should i set the voltage to adaptive? I think is a little too high. Should i set to 1.1v or less or what should i do? Thanks in advance for the responses.


1.2 is not a high voltage for this chip. I am running the K version of the processor at 1.2 at 4.7ghz.

You could probably dial the vcore back but that would be based on what kind of load temps you are getting. Your chip might actually need 1.2 for when the CPU spools up in turbo mode to it's maximum frequency.


----------



## GreedyMuffin

Yeah, 1.2V is not much. I can run closwr to 4.9/5.0 ghz at 1.200V+.

I think I'll switch my hero for a Taichi.. I'ved feed up with the hero.

Question. Would the Taichi fequire more or less voltage at the same settings?


----------



## tashcz

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *GreedyMuffin*
> 
> Yeah, 1.2V is not much. I can run closwr to 4.9/5.0 ghz at 1.200V+.
> 
> I think I'll switch my hero for a Taichi.. I'ved feed up with the hero.
> 
> Question. Would the Taichi fequire more or less voltage at the same settings?


Why would you do that??


----------



## GreedyMuffin

Because my G.skill 4266 kit won't go over 3400 mhz stable..


----------



## freaky35

Isn’t It that your cpu’s mem controller won’t allow It tho get higher speed. Maybe your are at The max?


----------



## GreedyMuffin

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *freaky35*
> 
> Isn't It that your cpu's mem controller won't allow It tho get higher speed. Maybe your are at The max?


CPU was bought binned. Last guy ran 5 ghz 1.220V with memory at 4266 mhz, so I doubt it.


----------



## webhito

There is finally stock for the maximus x formula here in Mexico... but $450? is it really worth that kind of money?


----------



## Leoplate25

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *tashcz*
> 
> You can undervolt it for sure. Just set the vcore in BIOS. Don't go too low though, and test your stability, on 1 core and on all cores, since you might now be stable with it.
> 
> XMP + MCE off + undervolt should work fine.


If I turn MCE off and turbo boost off too, should the automatic CPU voltage drop or in Gigabyte motherboards is fixed at 1.2v? Is the energy efficient turbo has something to do if i set it to enabled? Thanks again!


----------



## renhanxue

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *webhito*
> 
> There is finally stock for the maximus x formula here in Mexico... but $450? is it really worth that kind of money?


I wouldn't think so, but I don't exactly do liquid nitrogen stuff. What does it even do better than the Maximus X Hero?


----------



## tashcz

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Leoplate25*
> 
> If I turn MCE off and turbo boost off too, should the automatic CPU voltage drop or in Gigabyte motherboards is fixed at 1.2v? Is the energy efficient turbo has something to do if i set it to enabled? Thanks again!


It's never fixed anywhere. Each chip has its factory voltages, yours has 1.2V. You can set a lower voltage if you wish.


----------



## Leoplate25

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *tashcz*
> 
> It's never fixed anywhere. Each chip has its factory voltages, yours has 1.2V. You can set a lower voltage if you wish.


I asked you because i saw, in other brands, ASUS for example, that the voltage drops depending on the processor speed (ghz), for example: i5-8400 at 2.8ghz is at 0.960v and it goes up if it is an i7-8700k (at stock clocks) to 1.120v. Why is that?


----------



## tashcz

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Leoplate25*
> 
> I asked you because i saw, in other brands, ASUS for example, that the voltage drops depending on the processor speed (ghz), for example: i5-8400 at 2.8ghz is at 0.960v and it goes up if it is an i7-8700k (at stock clocks) to 1.120v. Why is that?


Well I told you all CPU's have different voltages, every 8700K produced will have a different voltage too. That's the factory tested voltage needed for stability. They also have different power states, while under low usage they will downclock to lets say, 2GHz @ 0.8V or so. There's a big number of those states.


----------



## amd7674

Finally I did some VRM (on my Taichi mobo) temp measuring with my $30 thermal gun (rated for +/- 2C error)








As AlphaC sugggested I tried the back of motherboard (the highest temp between mosfet heatsinks).
Also I measure the front on the heatsink (heatpipe) joining both sides was the hottest.
I've used non-AVX prime95 (small FFTs) for 90 minutes

Idle temp: 30.0C (front) : 34.3C (back)
Full load temp: 57.0C (front) ; 71.9C (back)

I believe these are excellent results.







Anything below 80C is great.









My current settings are:

Asrock Taichi (farichild mosfets) bios v1.20
8700k (L733C404) delided
Noctua D15 (both fans running around 1000rpm on full load)
CPU Ratio = 50
Cache Ratio = 44
LLC = 1
Offset Voltage = -0.6 (~1.296v ~1.328v depending on the stressing app). I love offset comparing to set volatage as it will drop v depending on your workload.
DRAM V = 1.35V
VCCIO = 1.05V
VCCSA = 0.95V
All C-States Enabled

DRAM:
3200 14-14-14-34-480-2T @ 1.35V


----------



## scracy

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *renhanxue*
> 
> I wouldn't think so, but I don't exactly do liquid nitrogen stuff. What does it even do better than the Maximus X Hero?


Formula is not geared towards LN2 its more geared towards water cooling


----------



## tashcz

Most ROG board over Hero are way overpriced and you pay for the ROG logo and the overkill. A regular user will never notice a difference between a Hero and a Formula, performance wise. That said is if you don't have 480+480+n rads and a chip that you don't mind OC'ing over 1.5V 24/7 and run 4300MHz+ RAM on it.

If you really want that little extra from your components, sure, get the board, but the board isn't gonna do magic on it's own.


----------



## scracy

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *tashcz*
> 
> Most ROG board over Hero are way overpriced and you pay for the ROG logo and the overkill. A regular user will never notice a difference between a Hero and a Formula, performance wise. That said is if you don't have 480+480+n rads and a chip that you don't mind OC'ing over 1.5V 24/7 and run 4300MHz+ RAM on it.
> 
> If you really want that little extra from your components, sure, get the board, but the board isn't gonna do magic on it's own.


Nobody is suggesting there is a performance difference between Hero and Formula however I have been using Formula boards for several generations and they are a good thing,highly reliable and never give me problems, I dont mind paying for quality if it means avoiding problems, nothing worse than having to RMA a board when you have to pull a custom loop apart each time, expensive yes, overpriced depends on your point of view


----------



## Leoplate25

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *tashcz*
> 
> Well I told you all CPU's have different voltages, every 8700K produced will have a different voltage too. That's the factory tested voltage needed for stability. They also have different power states, while under low usage they will downclock to lets say, 2GHz @ 0.8V or so. There's a big number of those states.


Tom's hardware says this:

The Z370 Aorus Gaming 7 has appeared adequate through all of the tests so far, but we did find a small problem upon further examination: Its default CPU core voltage is 1.200V, slightly exceeding default settings. The impact this has on power consumption and heat production is far more relevant to our analysis.

In spite of its reasonable performance, the Z370 Aorus Gaming 7 is less efficient (by more than 13%) than the fully-loaded Z370 Godlike Gaming. This probably won't matter to overclockers who use fixed voltage anyway, but it would have been a huge problem in a non-performance-enthusiast application.


----------



## tashcz

Sure, it's possible, because each board has it's own LLC even when the option is not set. It's probably overshooting a bit for stability, not sure what's the voltage under load. But you really shouldn't make a big deal out of it. 1.2V is really a little.


----------



## dawarrior

Here's my Z370 Extreme4 with Fairchild mosfet's on the VRM. Guess I got lucky.


----------



## GreedyMuffin

Just got a Z370 Taichi... is there two models..? One with good mosfet's and one with crappy ones..?


----------



## HKPolice

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AlphaC*
> 
> Taichi. There's 10 drivers instead of 5 and more input filtering capacitors. What this means is the power will be "cleaner" (less ripple) going into the VRM , and there will be less loss and heat out of the VRM due to 10 PWM signals instead of 5. When using 5 PWM signals you end up with 2 mosfets switching on 1/5 of the time rather than 10 PWM signals switching on 1/10 of the time. The Taichi has half the load on the low side of the Dual channel mosfet as a result , since running dual driver mode doesn't result in half the amperage it just reduces the on state resistance in half.


I don't understand how the Taichi is considered 10 phases when it's only using 5 phases from the PWM controller?


----------



## GroinShooter

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *dawarrior*
> 
> Here's my Z370 Extreme4 with Fairchild mosfet's on the VRM. Guess I got lucky.


Damn... Is that a widespread issue across the Z370 Extreme 4 boards?
If so I'm glad I didn't get that board and instead decided to go with the M5.


----------



## webhito

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *GroinShooter*
> 
> Damn... Is that a widespread issue across the Z370 Extreme 4 boards?
> If so I'm glad I didn't get that board and instead decided to go with the M5.


I think hes just sharing his finding as apparently it comes in 2 flavors, doesn't look like its burnt if that's what you meant. The Extreme4 seems to be one of the peoples favorite board due to its cost and solid performance.

Scratch that, I thought the Darkish area around the mofsets was the sticky stuff from the pads... Guess its time for new glasses.


----------



## freaky35

Oh boy, Those look toasted, too bad for you mate, I hope your cpu is still ok?

I have The same board, now that I see This, more and more I want to change The motherboard .


----------



## sherpa25

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *dawarrior*
> 
> Here's my Z370 Extreme4 with Fairchild mosfet's on the VRM. Guess I got lucky.










What, is that really burned? One I was considering from the few mobo's over here.


----------



## amd7674

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *sherpa25*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What, is that really burned? One I was considering from the few mobo's over here.


His mobo is perfectly fine. He just said he got fairchild mosfets. Nothing to see here folks... Lol... The dark areas are just from thermal pads. See users other post...

http://www.overclock.net/t/1642581/z370-fatal1ty-k6-and-z370-extreme4-motherboard-qvl#post_26504125


----------



## Qstick333

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *amd7674*
> 
> His mobo is perfectly fine. He just said he got fairchild mosfets. Nothing to see here folks... Lol... The dark areas are just from thermal pads. See users other post...
> 
> http://www.overclock.net/t/1642581/z370-fatal1ty-k6-and-z370-extreme4-motherboard-qvl#post_26504125


I've been considering the Extreme 4. Is checking the mosfets something that needs to be done and what are the possibilities? It's my first build - I don't even know where to check....lol but now I am concerned.


----------



## dawarrior

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *freaky35*
> 
> Oh boy, Those look toasted, too bad for you mate, I hope your cpu is still ok?
> 
> I have The same board, now that I see This, more and more I want to change The motherboard .


The board is still zip tied to the foam it came on. I haven't installed it yet, I think it's fine. Thanks though. I see what you mean about it looking toasted.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *amd7674*
> 
> His mobo is perfectly fine. He just said he got fairchild mosfets. Nothing to see here folks... Lol... The dark areas are just from thermal pads. See users other post...
> 
> http://www.overclock.net/t/1642581/z370-fatal1ty-k6-and-z370-extreme4-motherboard-qvl#post_26504125


Yes, exactly. I thought about selling this board and getting a Taichi or Gigabyte Aorus 7 Gaming, but since I found that I've got the good Fairchild mosfets I'm gonna build on this one.


----------



## dawarrior

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Qstick333*
> 
> I've been considering the Extreme 4. Is checking the mosfets something that needs to be done and what are the possibilities? It's my first build - I don't even know where to check....lol but now I am concerned.


To check your VRM mosfets, first identify the black heatsink to the north of the CPU socket that says "Z370" in large gold letters.


On the back of the motherboard there are two screws that hold this heatsink in place. Remove the heatsink and you will see either Fairchild or Sinopwer mosfets. The Sinopowers are 2% less efficient.


----------



## aliquiswe

Don't know if it adds anything but the VRM heatsinks seem to be quite a bit larger on the Z370-F Strix than the Z370 Gaming M5.

I've put it together now, someone wrote that about 1.20 volt at stock before. I had 1.104 in UEFI but while playing Overwatch and launching stuff like that it has reached 1.28 volt according to HWmonitor. My temps with no OC and the Noctua NH-U12 has maxed at 58.

I do still have the original i7 8700K I ordered. I assume there's no easy way to tell which one is of better quality if I put that in too? Except actually overclocking but since the cooler I use now isn't all that mighty.. Of course I could do same volt and clock on both and see if there's any temp difference or see how low I could go in volt to while being stable at 4.8 GHz or so.

I'd also kinda feel like an ass opening that when I will return it anyway plus risk ******* up the socket. But on the other hand since I got both I have the option ..


Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!



In with the new, stay with the old.
https://youtu.be/kL6E9voQ_Ts


----------



## haxzion

Could someone please provide us the dimensions of stock thermal pads from Z370 AORUS Gaming 3?
I'm thinking of those with thicker (+0.5mm) quality pads.


----------



## GroinShooter

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *amd7674*
> 
> His mobo is perfectly fine. He just said he got fairchild mosfets. Nothing to see here folks... Lol... The dark areas are just from thermal pads. See users other post...
> 
> http://www.overclock.net/t/1642581/z370-fatal1ty-k6-and-z370-extreme4-motherboard-qvl#post_26504125


Oh, missed that. But still, that happens to look pretty similar to the burnt components around my fried 980Ti. All of the dark areas around the components are actually burnt deep into the PCB, not thermal pad residue.


----------



## GreedyMuffin

Seems like my new Taichi got Sinopower instead..

Well well.. Now I just need to disassemble my Z370 HERO X and replace it with the Taichi.

Reason(s).

* Stuck at 3400 with my 4266 mhz G.skill kit.
* I'm saving 55-60 bucks since I can return the HERO for free
* The connectivity on the ASRock is far superiour for MY usage.

EDIT: Now I'm on my new MOBO. Was fast to switch considering that my rig is under custom water.


----------



## Kuresu

Hi guys.

Can you all help me with my build that i'm still trying to customize before i begin buying parts come january.

[PCPartPicker part list](https://pcpartpicker.com/list/HyTjPs) / [Price breakdown by merchant](https://pcpartpicker.com/list/HyTjPs/by_merchant/)

Type|Item|Price
:----|:----|:----
**CPU** | [Intel - Core i7-8700K 3.7GHz 6-Core Processor](https://pcpartpicker.com/product/sxDzK8/intel-core-i7-8700k-37ghz-6-core-processor-bx80684i78700k) | $404.00 @ B&H
**CPU Cooler** | [be quiet! - Silent Loop 360 65.5 CFM Liquid CPU Cooler](https://pcpartpicker.com/product/v4rcCJ/be-quiet-silent-loop-360-655-cfm-liquid-cpu-cooler-bw004) |-
**Motherboard** | [Asus - ROG MAXIMUS X APEX EATX LGA1151 Motherboard](https://pcpartpicker.com/product/R2gPxr/asus-rog-maximus-x-apex-eatx-lga1151-motherboard-maximus-x-apex) | $328.99 @ SuperBiiz
**Memory** | [G.Skill - Ripjaws V Series 32GB (2 x 16GB) DDR4-3200 Memory](https://pcpartpicker.com/product/BZwqqs/gskill-memory-f43200c14d32gvk) | $480.00 @ Newegg Marketplace
**Storage** | [Samsung - 960 EVO 500GB M.2-2280 Solid State Drive](https://pcpartpicker.com/product/Ykbkcf/samsung-960-evo-500gb-m2-2280-solid-state-drive-mz-v6e500) | $240.00 @ Newegg
**Storage** | [Samsung - 960 EVO 500GB M.2-2280 Solid State Drive](https://pcpartpicker.com/product/Ykbkcf/samsung-960-evo-500gb-m2-2280-solid-state-drive-mz-v6e500) | $240.00 @ Newegg
**Video Card** | [Gigabyte - GeForce GTX 1080 Ti 11GB Aorus Waterforce Xtreme Edition Video Card](https://pcpartpicker.com/product/Mhbkcf/gigabyte-geforce-gtx-1080-ti-11gb-aorus-waterforce-xtreme-edition-video-card-gv-n108taorusx-w-11gd) | $884.98 @ Newegg
**Case** | [Phanteks - Enthoo Pro M Tempered Glass (Black) ATX Mid Tower Case](https://pcpartpicker.com/product/2mQRsY/phanteks-enthoo-pro-m-tempered-glass-atx-mid-tower-case-ph-es515ptg_bk) | $109.98 @ Newegg
**Power Supply** | [Corsair - 1000W 80+ Gold Certified Fully-Modular ATX Power Supply](https://pcpartpicker.com/product/w9Jkcf/corsair-power-supply-cp9020084na) | $179.99 @ Amazon
| *Prices include shipping, taxes, rebates, and discounts* |
| **Total** | **$2867.94**
| Generated by [PCPartPicker](http://pcpartpicker.com) 2017-12-17 15:46 EST-0500 |

This will be my first build ever, and i'm trying to go for some overclocking as well in both CPU and RAM.

I'm not too sure though wether the AIO cooler is good for OC'ing a delidded Core i7-8700k.

Anyone got any tips that can help me in the right direction?

Also, i'm not interested in aesthetics which is why im going for noise reduction on most of my gear.


----------



## webhito

Some parts of the apex could overlap the rubber gromets of that case. I was gonna assemble an x99e ws in that case but the sata ports did not have enough space. This won't happen to you since the board is reduced in that area.


----------



## Kuresu

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *webhito*
> 
> Some parts of the apex could overlap the rubber gromets of that case. I was gonna assemble an x99e ws in that case but the sata ports did not have enough space. This won't happen to you since the board is reduced in that area.


Hey Webhito.

Do you know if the X APEX would fit well in a Thermaltake Suppressor F51?
https://pcpartpicker.com/product/W3bkcf/thermaltake-case-ca1e100m1nn00

I know the case has room for e-atx, but will it fit the gromets of the case?


----------



## webhito

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Kuresu*
> 
> Hey Webhito.
> 
> Do you know if the X APEX would fit well in a Thermaltake Suppressor F51?
> https://pcpartpicker.com/product/W3bkcf/thermaltake-case-ca1e100m1nn00
> 
> I know the case has room for e-atx, but will it fit the gromets of the case?


Yup, definitely will fit with no issues whatsoever.

I have a phanteks evolv atx tg case and was tempted of grabbing an apex as well but due to the gromets and the weird slant it has I did not want to risk it as I cannot return the board.


----------



## Leoplate25

Hi! What's "Energy Efficient Turbo" for? And voltage optimization? (Gigabyte Z370 Aorus motherboards). Thanks!


----------



## lthquy

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Leoplate25*
> 
> Hi! What's "Energy Efficient Turbo" for? And voltage optimization? (Gigabyte Z370 Aorus motherboards). Thanks!


May be it reduce frequency vrm to improve induction efficiency


----------



## Leoplate25

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *lthquy*
> 
> May be it reduce frequency vrm to improve induction efficiency


Maybe 'voltage optimization' can reduce the cpu vcore if i have a locked 8700?


----------



## lthquy

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Leoplate25*
> 
> Maybe 'voltage optimization' can reduce the cpu vcore if i have a locked 8700?


I think it similar asus board
https://rog.asus.com/forum/showthread.php?83599-vrm-switching-frequency
Quote:


> Sets the switching frequency of the power FETs supplying processor Vcore. Lower switching frequencies lead to a higher VRM efficiency (small power saving) and lower VRM operating temperatures. Setting a higher switching frequency aids transient response (the recovery of voltage to the applied level after a load condition) - at the expense of heat.


----------



## Leoplate25

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *lthquy*
> 
> I think it similar asus board
> https://rog.asus.com/forum/showthread.php?83599-vrm-switching-frequency


Thanks for the answers. Then i should leave it on automatic, don't i? And do you know what is "Energy Efficient Turbo" for?


----------



## encrypted11

Reality check, it may be the best power delivery spec'd ITX board (Fatal1ty ITX Gaming AC)
But there is a BIOS hard limit on sustained and virus TDP are locked at 200W.


----------



## lemniscate

I finally ended up getting the hero. Thanks to AlphaC and everyone else who answered my questions. I gotta say Scracy's build made me seriously consider formula until the moment I got into the store.











Using R1 universal for now, going for the EK monoblock hopefully in a few months. Memories worked fine with XMP, those are 3466 c16 kits from corsair, which apparently used samsung's B dies. Haven't tried pushing them higher.

CPU thermal throttled at 100 deg C under prime95 small FFT at 4.5GHz (4.8GHz with -3 AVX offset) non-delidded. I'll test it for a few more days to make sure it's working fine and I'll delid it. VRM temps maxed at around 70 deg C, but the CPU throttled down to 4.3GHz so that probably doesn't say much.


----------



## Clausewitz

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *lemniscate*
> 
> I finally ended up getting the hero. Thanks to AlphaC and everyone else who answered my questions. I gotta say Scracy's build made me seriously consider formula until the moment I got into the store.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Using R1 universal for now, going for the EK monoblock hopefully in a few months. Memories worked fine with XMP, those are 3466 c16 kits from corsair, which apparently used samsung's B dies. Haven't tried pushing them higher.
> 
> CPU thermal throttled at 100 deg C under prime95 small FFT at 4.5GHz (4.8GHz with -3 AVX offset) non-delidded. I'll test it for a few more days to make sure it's working fine and I'll delid it. VRM temps maxed at around 70 deg C, but the CPU throttled down to 4.3GHz so that probably doesn't say much.


Nice.. Air cooling a Hero X though?


----------



## freaky35

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Clausewitz*
> 
> Nice.. Air cooling a Hero X though?


Why not, moist AIO liquid coolersis not better or worse. Then a high end aircooler.

Only a custom loop is way better


----------



## lemniscate

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Clausewitz*
> 
> Nice.. Air cooling a Hero X though?


Was planning to use my old H100i, but I lost the compatible standoff screws so I couldn't. I'm planning to go custom loop but probably in a few months, need to keep an eye on my budget.


----------



## scracy

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *lemniscate*
> 
> I finally ended up getting the hero. Thanks to AlphaC and everyone else who answered my questions. I gotta say *Scracy's build made me seriously consider formula* until the moment I got into the store.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Using R1 universal for now, going for the EK monoblock hopefully in a few months. Memories worked fine with XMP, those are 3466 c16 kits from corsair, which apparently used samsung's B dies. Haven't tried pushing them higher.
> 
> CPU thermal throttled at 100 deg C under prime95 small FFT at 4.5GHz (4.8GHz with -3 AVX offset) non-delidded. I'll test it for a few more days to make sure it's working fine and I'll delid it. VRM temps maxed at around 70 deg C, but the CPU throttled down to 4.3GHz so that probably doesn't say much.


Cheers







to be honest I have never had an issue with Hero boards in the past either, either way yes you do pay for the ROG name but you are also paying for quality, nothing worse than having to RMA a board which I have never had to with ROG.


----------



## Clausewitz

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *lemniscate*
> 
> Was planning to use my old H100i, but I lost the compatible standoff screws so I couldn't. I'm planning to go custom loop but probably in a few months, need to keep an eye on my budget.


I think Corsair will replace the mounting hardware.


----------



## elefantopia

Did you contact ASROCK tech support see if they can change the BIO, seems that nerfing 100Watts off a board on the asumption that an ITX at that power can't be cooled is... daft, and ASROCK is pretty responsive to customers.


----------



## elefantopia

Is the position of the holes to mount VRM heatsink standard from board to board?
I've seen that the asrock pro4 had mounting holes but no heatsink


----------



## lemniscate

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Clausewitz*
> 
> I think Corsair will replace the mounting hardware.


It's a bit problematic because I'm no longer staying in the country I bought it so I doubt the local distributor would replace them for me.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *scracy*
> 
> Cheers
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> to be honest I have never had an issue with Hero boards in the past either, either way yes you do pay for the ROG name but you are also paying for quality, nothing worse than having to RMA a board which I have never had to with ROG.


Haha yeah hopefully I don't have to ever go through RMA again. I had to RMA my EVGA card back then and even though they processed it quickly it's still a pain to deal with not having access to my pc for a week.


----------



## VeritronX

I'm planning a custom watercooled ITX build with a 5.2Ghz delidded i5 8600K from siliconlottery.. Should I go for the asrock fatality board with a cpu block or the strix Z370i with a monoblock?


----------



## encrypted11

I think someone mentioned the Strix-i's VRM throttles around 150W.

The ASRock Fatal1ty ITX has good VRMs but unfortunately they're BIOS locked at 200W (no problems for the VRM).

If I'd weigh the differences,
strix-i
-Dual M.2.
-Easier to find a closer fittint monoblock (Ek STRIX-I Z270 block doesn't touch the inductors unfortunately)
-No idea how the fan headers are set up, potentially they're all DC/PWM switchable
-Really bad Realtek WiFi chipset

Fatal1ty
-Phenomenal POST times, typically 7-7.7 seconds with heavily overclocked RAMs with fastboot/windows 10 hybrid shutdown disabled (dGPU, I haven't tried iGPU + JEDEC-2133)
-Pretty sparse BIOS
>vCore in 5mV increments (fixed)
>vCore in 10mV increments (offsets)
>VccIO in 5mV increments
>VccSA in 50mV increments
(I hope the BIOS engineers aren't drunk...)
-1X DC/PWM fan header (CPU OPT)
-2X PWM fan header (CPU/CHA)
-2 Lane Thunderbolt
(it might make a decent lan party box with an eGPU GTX 1060)
-USB-PD Charging up to 36W
-AC8265 Intel WiFi chipset

You might be kneecapped with the strix-i VRMs, but it has potentially a better DC mode fan control across all headers and potentially abit better granularity with the BIOS.

But VRMs, connectivity (superior WiFi chipset) goes to the fatal1ty, better IO (unless raid 0 M.2 is your pick) goes to fatal1ty.

If there was a Maximus X Impact that might be a clear winner. ([email protected] - No impact planned for this gen). Neither of these boards are perfect. If you got the Fatal1ty, you need to make sure your planned loop has a low dependency on DC fan headers.


----------



## renhanxue

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *encrypted11*
> 
> strix-i
> -Dual M.2.
> -Easier to find a closer fittint monoblock (Ek STRIX-I Z270 block doesn't touch the inductors unfortunately)
> -No idea how the fan headers are set up, potentially they're all DC/PWM switchable
> -Really bad Realtek WiFi chipset


I don't know if Realtek really deserves their bad reputation these days, but regardless of that, Kitguru claims the Strix-I has the Intel 8265 wifi chipset, not the Realtek RTL8822BE of the Strix-E. I don't have one either one myself so I can't verify, but maybe someone else here can? I believe HWInfo64 will list the actual chipset name of your network adapter - it refers to my Asus PCI-E card as a Broadcom something-or-other.


----------



## encrypted11

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *renhanxue*
> 
> I don't know if Realtek really deserves their bad reputation these days, but regardless of that, Kitguru claims the Strix-I has the Intel 8265 wifi chipset, not the Realtek RTL8822BE of the Strix-E. I don't have one either one myself so I can't verify, but maybe someone else here can? I believe HWInfo64 will list the actual chipset name of your network adapter - it refers to my Asus PCI-E card as a Broadcom something-or-other.


1. A local reviewer in my community that received a retail Z370-I sample for testing indicated "RTL8822BE"
http://www.realtek.com.tw/products/productsView.aspx?Langid=1&PNid=21&PFid=60&Level=5&Conn=4&ProdID=380

2. From the Z370-I strix driver support web page
https://www.asus.com/us/Motherboards/ROG-STRIX-Z370-I-GAMING/HelpDesk_Download/
(Realtek driver branch)
Version 2023.66.1104.2017
2017/12/0640.37 MBytes
Wi-Fi Driver
Wi-Fi Driver V2023.66.1104.2017 for Windows 10 64bit.(WHQL)

There are zero traces of Intel WiFi chipsets for Asus Z370 products, it appears that they've discontinued the use of Qualcomm Atheros QCA6xxx series WiFi chipsets (Boards using 2x2 MIMO models) they went with between 100-200 series boards.

I think kitguru's claim is incorrect unfortunately. I don't think the board manufacturer will place irrelevant drivers on their product support page and by far, none of the Z370 board driver pages have listed something that isn't Realtek for WiFi.


----------



## stoker

Looking to possibly get the Taichi board, I've seen different variations of the K6 and Extreme 4. Are all the Taichi's fitted with the Fairchild vrms ?


----------



## GreedyMuffin

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *stoker*
> 
> Looking to possibly get the Taichi board, I've seen different variations of the K6 and Extreme 4. Are all the Taichi's fitted with the Fairchild vrms ?


No.. Mine was not. Still, a mere 2%, will you notice it? Still let's me do 5.3 ghz.


----------



## Kuresu

Hi guys, i was hoping someone perhaps could help me decide.

I'm in the process of researching components to buy for making my new rig.

I plan on making a custom loop water cooling for cpu/gpu using EKWB xe 360/240 radiators.

My CPU is i7 8700k (delidded)
My GPU is a GTX 1080TI

The ram i'm thinking of buying are 3200mz CAS14 16gbx2 or 8x2 G.Skill Ripjaws V.

The primary use of the rig is for top quality gaming/VR.

I'm unsure of which board to get though, if i wanted to clock my rams and increase speed to get a stable FPS during gaming even in intense scenarios.

Is there a big difference in clocking stability between the 2? I have no plans of using LN2 cooling which i know the apex is more suited for.
But i also know the apex is more geared towards overclocking.

Anyone know if, there for my use, will be a big difference?


----------



## renhanxue

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *encrypted11*
> 
> 1. A local reviewer in my community that received a retail Z370-I sample for testing indicated "RTL8822BE"
> http://www.realtek.com.tw/products/productsView.aspx?Langid=1&PNid=21&PFid=60&Level=5&Conn=4&ProdID=380
> 
> 2. From the Z370-I strix driver support web page
> https://www.asus.com/us/Motherboards/ROG-STRIX-Z370-I-GAMING/HelpDesk_Download/
> (Realtek driver branch)
> Version 2023.66.1104.2017
> 2017/12/0640.37 MBytes
> Wi-Fi Driver
> Wi-Fi Driver V2023.66.1104.2017 for Windows 10 64bit.(WHQL)
> 
> There are zero traces of Intel WiFi chipsets for Asus Z370 products, it appears that they've discontinued the use of Qualcomm Atheros QCA6xxx series WiFi chipsets (Boards using 2x2 MIMO models) they went with between 100-200 series boards.
> 
> I think kitguru's claim is incorrect unfortunately. I don't think the board manufacturer will place irrelevant drivers on their product support page and by far, none of the Z370 board driver pages have listed something that isn't Realtek for WiFi.


Yes, you're almost certainly correct - it has to be a mistake on Kitguru's part. I did think it was weird that one particular model would have a different chipset from a different manufacturer but when I looked around I didn't see anything to the contrary, but I evidently didn't look very well.


----------



## encrypted11

While I don't really want to sway opinions on the wireless chipset options, @VeritronX have you thought that Intel WiDi (In its current form integrated with Windows 10) can be very useful?









You could project your PC's display to your television (assuming its some sort of a Smart TV) by using the bone stock Intel WiFi drivers


----------



## VeritronX

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *encrypted11*
> 
> While I don't really want to sway opinions on the wireless chipset options, @VeritronX have you thought that Intel WiDi (In its current form integrated with Windows 10) can be very useful?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You could project your PC's display to your television (assuming its some sort of a Smart TV) by using the bone stock Intel WiFi drivers


While wifi isn't important to me at all, a 150W power limit sounds pretty restricting and makes using a monoblock a big waste of money.. I think I'll just order the fatality ITX board from the US after Christmas and reuse my cpu block. Thanks for all the help =)


----------



## encrypted11

You can totally pull about 140W (12 threads) off the CPU package at around 1.25 Volts on heavy real world loads like AVX2 handbrake encoding.
If that is an indication at all, a mid range board on the original post or better would be most ideal for a K chip. There should be abit more headroom for an i5.


----------



## stoker

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *GreedyMuffin*
> 
> No.. Mine was not. Still, a mere 2%, will you notice it? Still let's me do 5.3 ghz.


Thanks for your reply. Do you know if the vrms have any temp monitoring built in?


----------



## freaky35

None of the Asrocks have vrm temp sensor.


----------



## Clausewitz

Requesting a new tier list that includes EVGA boards and perhaps Biostar.


----------



## CuewarsTaner

Any recommended good ASUS board for 8700K overclocking to 5.0GHz or higher? CPU is delidded.

Thank you all!


----------



## Kuresu

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *tiefox*
> 
> Just ordered the Apex here in Denmark. I should be getting it on Thursday, let me know if you guys want to see any specific VRM infos and tests, I will oc my 8700k and gskill 4266 memory.


Hey, could i ask what your opinion is of the Apex? I'm still considering wether to get the Apex for its OC purpose or get the Formula instead.


----------



## tiefox

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Kuresu*
> 
> Hey, could i ask what your opinion is of the Apex? I'm still considering wether to get the Apex for its OC purpose or get the Formula instead.


I'm enjoying it...was able to run my 8700k @ 5.1 ghz with 1.34v , I think I can make it run at 5.3 with 1.40+ but need to delid and custom water cool it.

I do have a problem with my memory kit that is 4266 @ cas 19 but I cant run it on the apex with more than [email protected] cas 15. It was not in the QVL list though...

If you are doing a custom loop and have the money I would get the Formula, if both were released at the same time I would probably get the formula. mostly because of the vrm waterblock ( not really needed, just for the cool factor ) and the 4 memory slots ( apex has 2 ).


----------



## Kuresu

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *tiefox*
> 
> I'm enjoying it...was able to run my 8700k @ 5.1 ghz with 1.34v , I think I can make it run at 5.3 with 1.40+ but need to delid and custom water cool it.
> 
> I do have a problem with my memory kit that is 4266 @ cas 19 but I cant run it on the apex with more than [email protected] cas 15. It was not in the QVL list though...
> 
> If you are doing a custom loop and have the money I would get the Formula, if both were released at the same time I would probably get the formula. mostly because of the vrm waterblock ( not really needed, just for the cool factor ) and the 4 memory slots ( apex has 2 ).


Thanks for your reply!
From what i've been able to read around, Watercooler.de plans on releasing a waterblock for the apex boards come january.

My understanding was that Apex was the better choice for OC'ing the ram.

I was planning on buying 32gb CAS 14, 3200mhz of the box G.skill Ripjaws V and a i8700k i would delid. (The ram i'm looking at are supported in the CVL)

And want to make a custom loop watercooler.

The annoying part is Apex's size which makes it hard to put it in a midtower case with top/front radiator + customloop watercooling.


----------



## tiefox

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Kuresu*
> 
> Thanks for your reply!
> From what i've been able to read around, Watercooler.de plans on releasing a waterblock for the apex boards come january.
> 
> My understanding was that Apex was the better choice for OC'ing the ram.
> 
> I was planning on buying 32gb CAS 14, 3200mhz of the box G.skill Ripjaws V and a i8700k i would delid. (The ram i'm looking at are supported in the CVL)
> 
> And want to make a custom loop watercooler.
> 
> The annoying part is Apex's size which makes it hard to put it in a midtower case with top/front radiator + customloop watercooling.


I think I'm the culprit on spreading the watercool.de plans for the Apex, I understood that they were doing a VRM cooler for the Maximus X Apex but it turns out they are doing for the Rampage VI Apex, X299. There is no VRM blocks for the z370 apex right now, event the z270 apex EK monoblock does not fit apparently. But the Maximus X does not seem to need a vrm block anyway.

I was also expecting to run my memory faster without any issues, but only after it got released that I saw that it was not in the QVL ( I bough the memory kit in a trip to the USA back in September ).

Yeah, both the formula and the apex are big boards, I have it on an Enthoo Primo full tower, so no problem fitting it.


----------



## AlphaC

Z370 Pro4 BIOs 1.50

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPu27LI4qz8

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Clausewitz*
> 
> Requesting a new tier list that includes EVGA boards and perhaps Biostar.


Need more data since there's no specs on the Infineon DrMos TDA88240 used other than the 35A rating.

If someone is willing to stress their EVGA board past 160-180W CPU Power and record input (at the wall difference vs idle / current clamp on CPU power cable / software) and output power reported by Intel XTU and hwinfo64 that'd help.

I have a feeling it would be between Fatal1ty K6 and the mainstream Z370-A / Gigabyte 5 / MSI M5 trio & Asus Strix E/F boards.

The Biostar Z370GT6 isn't amazing since Steven from tweaktown got it throttling to 4.4GHz when overclocked (power limit or otherwise). Sinopower SM4364 and SM4377 aren't top tier either.
https://www.tweaktown.com/reviews/8462/biostar-z370gt6-motherboard-review/index3.html


----------



## Kuresu

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *tiefox*
> 
> I think I'm the culprit on spreading the watercool.de plans for the Apex, I understood that they were doing a VRM cooler for the Maximus X Apex but it turns out they are doing for the Rampage VI Apex, X299. There is no VRM blocks for the z370 apex right now, event the z270 apex EK monoblock does not fit apparently. But the Maximus X does not seem to need a vrm block anyway.
> 
> I was also expecting to run my memory faster without any issues, but only after it got released that I saw that it was not in the QVL ( I bough the memory kit in a trip to the USA back in September ).
> 
> Yeah, both the formula and the apex are big boards, I have it on an Enthoo Primo full tower, so no problem fitting it.


If you had to look at it today?
Which ram would you get for the X Apex?
As it stands now, i'm looking at these that are in the QVL.
G.Skill Ripjaws V 16GBx2 - 3200MHZ - CAS14
https://www.bj-trading.dk/bjshop/default.asp?pv=F4-3200C14D-32GVK&pn=G.Skill&gruppe=RAM-DDR4-288Pins&overgr=Hardware&vare=267856&f=edbp

I was trying to find some ram that had as low latency as possible for better stability/frame rates in games.
But not entirely sure what i should go for to properly OC them if needed.


----------



## tiefox

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Kuresu*
> 
> If you had to look at it today?
> Which ram would you get for the X Apex?
> As it stands now, i'm looking at these that are in the QVL.
> G.Skill Ripjaws V 16GBx2 - 3200MHZ - CAS14
> https://www.bj-trading.dk/bjshop/default.asp?pv=F4-3200C14D-32GVK&pn=G.Skill&gruppe=RAM-DDR4-288Pins&overgr=Hardware&vare=267856&f=edbp
> 
> I was trying to find some ram that had as low latency as possible for better stability/frame rates in games.
> But not entirely sure what i should go for to properly OC them if needed.


I would go for the fastest speed 32gb ( 2x16gb) kit available in the qvl..mainly because how the ram speeds benefit arma 3 in my case


----------



## rafiinf

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AlphaC*
> 
> Z370 Pro4 BIOs 1.50
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPu27LI4qz8
> Need more data since there's no specs on the Infineon DrMos TDA88240 used other than the 35A rating.
> 
> If someone is willing to stress their EVGA board past 160-180W CPU Power and record input (at the wall difference vs idle / current clamp on CPU power cable / software) and output power reported by Intel XTU and hwinfo64 that'd help.
> 
> I have a feeling it would be between Fatal1ty K6 and the mainstream Z370-A / Gigabyte 5 / MSI M5 trio & Asus Strix E/F boards.
> 
> The Biostar Z370GT6 isn't amazing since Steven from tweaktown got it throttling to 4.4GHz when overclocked (power limit or otherwise). Sinopower SM4364 and SM4377 aren't top tier either.
> https://www.tweaktown.com/reviews/8462/biostar-z370gt6-motherboard-review/index3.html


Is MSI m5 is better than Extreme4/K6 and on a par wiht Gigabyte 5, Z370A?


----------



## AlphaC

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *rafiinf*
> 
> Is MSI m5 is better than Extreme4/K6 and on a par wiht Gigabyte 5, Z370A?


Max current on the M5 is below the Extreme4 but the rise/fall times are also much slower and the package design results in more losses too.

We're talking about 34A at 80°C for the 4C029N (MSI M5 high side) / 4C10N (Gigabyte Gaming 5) , 39A @ 80°C for the 4c09N (Z370-A) vs 35A @ 100°C for the Extreme4's Fairchild variant (high side channel) or 46A @ 100°C for the Sinopower SM7341 variant (high side channel) albeit with slower switch times.

You have to take into account airflow but in terms of switching the Fairchild fets (and the Sinopower dual-N mosfets) are much faster.

Also Maximus X *formula* review


(Vishay ZF906)
http://greentechreviews.ru/2017/12/16/obzor-materinskoj-platy-asus-rog-maximus-formula/
Maybe it's doubled on the back like the APEX?

http://darktech-reviews.com/11340

Maimus X *Formula* review
(Vishay ZF906 via IR3599)


Spoiler: Use ROG Formula on custom water!




"Department of Energy from the first category will not find in what hold you break the speed until the wrenching new processors with a maximum temperature of breaking speed frequency 5GHz was 81 degrees using a water cooling is closed AIO and 72 using air-cooled "



Vishay datasheet http://www.vishay.com/docs/67547/sizf906dt.pdf
60A dual channel mosfet
~ $0.75 on Mouser for 1000+

Similar testing with AIO on Gaming 7 (http://darktech-reviews.com/10884)


Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!



"The power circuit of the professional category will not find anything that hinders you in breaking the speed until the new processors exhaust the maximum temperature with a break speed of 5GHz was 75 degrees"

"I did not find any problems with the motherboard during the test, especially breaking the speed that was easy thanks to the help of powerful power circuits even breaking the speed of memories reached the frequency of 4133 + MHz and the size of 32GB which is great

I did a quick test of the cooling of the energy circuits, using water cooling once because one of the disadvantages of water cooling is the absence of an air current goes to the power circuits unlike the air cooling even in the table shows that the air cooling make the energy cycle 10 degrees less than water cooling either at the level The other uses the water cooling and activating the small fan set by GIGABYTE on the plate, it reduced the temperature by 8 degrees, which is an excellent number for a small fan does not have a little voice when activated, the question here is why GIGABYTE develops a power circuit and activates when Access only to the temperature of 90 plates Do not need to cool the additional cooling core was more than wonderful with a great power circuit in the medium panel, making the power and cooling under the annex under the over Kill only wanted to get the best Gigabyte without undisputed cool "



STRIX *Z370 G* review (Sira12dp low side + sira14dp high side)

http://greentechreviews.ru/2017/12/05/obzor-materinskoj-platy-asus-rog-strix-z370-g-gaming-wi-fi-ac/

(Their Z370-A review also was a Vishay Sira14dp+Sira12dp variant as well as their STRIX Z370-E)

*Z370N WIFI*

http://www.clubedohardware.com.br/artigos/placas-mae/placa-m%C3%A3e-gigabyte-z370n-wifi-r36787/?nbcpage=5


----------



## Clausewitz

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AlphaC*
> 
> Max current on the M5 is below the Extreme4 but the rise/fall times are also much slower and the package design results in more losses too.
> 
> We're talking about 34A at 80°C for the 4C029N (MSI M5 high side) / 4C10N (Gigabyte Gaming 5) , 39A @ 80°C for the 4c09N (Z370-A) vs 35A @ 100°C for the Extreme4's Fairchild variant (high side channel) or 46A @ 100°C for the Sinopower SM7341 variant (high side channel) albeit with slower switch times.
> 
> You have to take into account airflow but in terms of switching the Fairchild fets (and the Sinopower dual-N mosfets) are much faster.
> 
> Also Maximus X *formula* review
> 
> 
> (Vishay ZF906)
> http://greentechreviews.ru/2017/12/16/obzor-materinskoj-platy-asus-rog-maximus-formula/
> Maybe it's doubled on the back like the APEX?
> 
> http://darktech-reviews.com/11340
> 
> Maimus X *Formula* review
> (Vishay ZF906 via IR3599)
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Use ROG Formula on custom water!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "Department of Energy from the first category will not find in what hold you break the speed until the wrenching new processors with a maximum temperature of breaking speed frequency 5GHz was 81 degrees using a water cooling is closed AIO and 72 using air-cooled "
> 
> 
> 
> Vishay datasheet http://www.vishay.com/docs/67547/sizf906dt.pdf
> 60A dual channel mosfet
> ~ $0.75 on Mouser for 1000+
> 
> Similar testing with AIO on Gaming 7 (http://darktech-reviews.com/10884)
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!
> 
> 
> 
> "The power circuit of the professional category will not find anything that hinders you in breaking the speed until the new processors exhaust the maximum temperature with a break speed of 5GHz was 75 degrees"
> 
> "I did not find any problems with the motherboard during the test, especially breaking the speed that was easy thanks to the help of powerful power circuits even breaking the speed of memories reached the frequency of 4133 + MHz and the size of 32GB which is great
> 
> I did a quick test of the cooling of the energy circuits, using water cooling once because one of the disadvantages of water cooling is the absence of an air current goes to the power circuits unlike the air cooling even in the table shows that the air cooling make the energy cycle 10 degrees less than water cooling either at the level The other uses the water cooling and activating the small fan set by GIGABYTE on the plate, it reduced the temperature by 8 degrees, which is an excellent number for a small fan does not have a little voice when activated, the question here is why GIGABYTE develops a power circuit and activates when Access only to the temperature of 90 plates Do not need to cool the additional cooling core was more than wonderful with a great power circuit in the medium panel, making the power and cooling under the annex under the over Kill only wanted to get the best Gigabyte without undisputed cool "
> 
> 
> 
> STRIX *Z370 G* review (Sira12dp low side + sira14dp high side)
> 
> http://greentechreviews.ru/2017/12/05/obzor-materinskoj-platy-asus-rog-strix-z370-g-gaming-wi-fi-ac/
> 
> (Their Z370-A review also was a Vishay Sira14dp+Sira12dp variant as well as their STRIX Z370-E)
> 
> *Z370N WIFI*
> 
> http://www.clubedohardware.com.br/artigos/placas-mae/placa-m%C3%A3e-gigabyte-z370n-wifi-r36787/?nbcpage=5


Sorry if you've stated this before but what board do you use in your build?


----------



## Melodist

So the Z730 Prime A is the same board based on components quality as the Strix? What do you think of the Taichi?


----------



## d4icon

Hi,

where i can see option IA AC/DC is ASROCK k6 z370?

thanks


----------



## AlphaC

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Melodist*
> 
> So the Z730 Prime A is the same board based on components quality as the Strix? What do you think of the Taichi?


Depends on the variant. There's one variant of the STRIX E/F/G boards it seems. There's supposedly 2 variants of the Z370-A. I wouldn't obsess over it.

The Taichi has two variants as well , with the Fairchild variant having switching times that are quicker.

Another Z370 Gaming 5 review , with i5-8600k + cryorig R1
(Load is LinX AVX)
Quote:


> The search for the maximum stable frequency mark with the involvement of LinX led to rather unexpected results. It was possible to take the line at 4.7 GHz, and this is even lower than with the non-ideal ASRock Fatal1ty Z370 Gaming K6 and actually as much as we got with the modest ASUS ROG Strix Z370-I Gaming. And it's all about the stability of the voltage. Even the extreme profile of LLC Turbo LLC does not provide sufficient voltage stabilization, its level was planned as 1.22 V. With large marks, the system has already overheated.
> 
> 
> The VRM sensor on the board is working properly. I managed to get a figure of 76 ° C, whereas it showed a temperature increase of up to 80 ° C, that is, its readings can be completely trusted. Due to the design features of the radiator, it is difficult to say what its true temperature was, the top overhead part did not warm up more than 43 ° C. Consumption was within the limits of 47-234 watts (without taking into account the splash caused by the activity of background processes in Windows). The figures are quite comparable to those already obtained on similar competing boards.


https://www.overclockers.ua/motherboard/gigabyte-z370-aorus-gaming-5/3/

Maximus X Hero

https://www.hkepc.com/16016/%E5%8D%81%E4%BB%A3__%E8%8B%B1%E9%9B%84%E7%99%BB%E5%A0%B4_ASUS_ROG_Maximus_X_HERO_%E4%B8%BB%E6%A9%9F%E6%9D%BF
Infineon Optimos mislabeled as NexFET

new Z370 UD3H board found on Gigabyte's site looks semi-promising, probably same as Gaming 5 VRM but with push pins unfortunately (also no Debug LED)

https://www.gigabyte.com/Motherboard/Z370-UD3H-rev-10#kf


----------



## d4icon

Hello, everybody,

For the last 2 months I have been stable my 8600k at 5Ghz, with ASrock k6 Z370 v1.20
LLC 1, offset +0.004

REalBech passed the test with intervals in the vcore between 1.232 and 1.248. all ok.

Now I have updated Asrock k6 to version 1.3 and the vcore values with the same configuration have changed: -S
Why? Why?
Realbech now has 1,200 and 1,216 intervals.

What's happened?

I'm back to version 1.2 and it's fixed, but I'd like to have the latest version, which would be the best.

Help plez

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator


----------



## asdkj1740

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AlphaC*
> 
> new Z370 UD3H board found on Gigabyte's site looks semi-promising, probably same as Gaming 5 VRM but with push pins unfortunately (also no Debug LED)
> 
> https://www.gigabyte.com/Motherboard/Z370-UD3H-rev-10#kf


this new ud3h from gigabyte seems to be positioning between ultra gaming and gaming 5.
however, the ud3h seems to be using taiwanese 5k caps plus the push pin mounting of the vrm heatsink...which is even worse than ultra gaming...

more important thing is the heatsink, not just about the push pin method, but the heatsink on ud3h is the same as hd3/hd3p and worse than the ultra gaming's heatsink.


----------



## T-Datto

I read a lot pages of this topic and i dont know who motherboard have better stability (less hot VRM) on 5ghz.

* Asrock extreme4
* Asrock gaming k6
* Msi pro carbon
* Gigabyte ultra gaming
* Asus strix z370-F

My budget is up to $ 200 and I want to leave my 8600k i5 at 5ghz 24/7.
I will buy a mobo in 10 day.

Who is the best choice for me?

Thanks a lot


----------



## tashcz

You know you don't overclock a CPU to some value you want, but that you overclock it as much as you can, for a start, right?


----------



## T-Datto

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *tashcz*
> 
> You know you don't overclock a CPU to some value you want, but that you overclock it as much as you can, for a start, right?


yeah, i know.
But, 5ghz in i5 8600k its easy, 5.2 5.3 its another level adventure, its not for me.
4.9 or 5ghz its pretty good a lot for me.

I forgot mention a a motherboard.

Asus z370-a prime, is better of strix rog E, F ?


----------



## tashcz

Neither for 5GHz 24/7 I'd say from what I've read.

You do also know you have to probably delid in order to keep the 8600K cool? What cooling are you using?

I see you are new, so just want to make sure you know how things work, don't get me wrong.

Regarding Asus boards, I think none of the lower end Z370's should be considered "good" for 5GHz. Too few power phases.
Gaming k6 looks good. Ultra gaming not so much. Z370 Carbon from MSI maybe. But really man, all the answers are in the thread. There's even a list of whats great, average, good, bad, etc.


----------



## T-Datto

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *tashcz*
> 
> Neither for 5GHz 24/7 I'd say from what I've read.
> 
> You do also know you have to probably delid in order to keep the 8600K cool? What cooling are you using?
> 
> I see you are new, so just want to make sure you know how things work, don't get me wrong.
> 
> Regarding Asus boards, I think none of the lower end Z370's should be considered "good" for 5GHz. Too few power phases.
> Gaming k6 looks good. Ultra gaming not so much. Z370 Carbon from MSI maybe. But really man, all the answers are in the thread. There's even a list of whats great, average, good, bad, etc.


Thanks for explication

I overcloking my pc´s a lot years. I start overclock with a athlon Xp 1900+ JYUBI. hehehe Long time a go.

My last pc is a 2500k with a asrock z77, 4.5ghz 24/7, 5 years and NEVER blue screan.

My cooling today is a pcyes 240mm water cooler, my cpu is a 8600k i5 lapped (plate is a mirror now)

This is a my old cpu 2500k









This is new cpu 8600k


I'm really inclined to pick up the K6 asrock because of the dissipation pipe over the mosfets


----------



## tashcz

Lapping helps on AMD systems mostly, since they don't have TIM between the chip and IHS. On Intel CPU's you're much better off delidding your CPU instead of lapping it. In fact, I don't know if people lap Intel CPUs anymore. They usually just remove the IHS if they wanna play that way.

It's not just the cooling that you see on the board, it's the MOSFETs they use. The k6 seems solid in both ways though. Maybe someone owning one will respond and give you some more info on the temps.


----------



## T-Datto

Thanks a lot!


----------



## innamed

Hi everybody, what do you think about this?



I mean, it's the Taichi whose VRM is very highly rated here, and it heats pretty much under load even without overclocking.
Proof.


----------



## MBugaria

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *innamed*
> 
> Hi everybody, what do you think about this?


In this review ->>> Firmware Updates: The Post Game Show

BTW
The latest BIOS at the moment
1.30 of 2017/12/18


----------



## innamed

OK they "fixed" it to:



Is it enough to OC an i7-8700 to ~4.8 GHz and not be scared of burning the VRM?
And what about cheaper AsRock motherboards like Fatal1ty K6 & Extreme4? Is it safe (for their VRM) to buy them for overclocking an i7-8700K to ~4.8 GHz?


----------



## AlphaC

Some reliability notes


http://www.ti.com/lit/an/snva509a/snva509a.pdf


http://www.onsemi.com/pub/Collateral/AND9016-D.PDF

https://www.microsemi.com/document-portal/doc_view/124041-calculating-reliability-using-fit-mttf-arrhenius-htol-model

https://www.intersil.com/content/dam/Intersil/quality/rel/calculation_of_semiconductor_failure_rates.pdf


http://www.aosmd.com/media/reliability-handbook.pdf

https://www.onsemi.com/pub/Collateral/HBD851-D.PDF

@ innamed,
If a motherboard is being compared with a Gaming 7 or Godlike then it's close to top tier...

4.8GHz , _especially without an AVX2 workload_ does not need a top tier board unless you have not delid and are using an awful chip that needs stupid amounts of power in excess of 150W.

The chart is delta over ambient so even with ambient ~ 38°C/100°F you'd still be at roughly 80-85°C with a Prime95 AVX load.


----------



## GreedyMuffin

Taichi easily cools my 5.2 ghz 8700K.


----------



## innamed

But what about AsRock Z370 Fatal1ty K6 and Extreme4, can they _safely_ handle an i7-8700K @ 4.8 under heavy load?


----------



## kimizle

Can someone identify this vrm....? this is from ASROCK z370 ITX gaming board but instead of fairchild on memory, they used this. I think there are variations among the board like extreme4 does.
I want to know the quality of this particular vrm and how bad/good it is in comparison to fairchild.

I appreciate your help


----------



## bloot

Sinopower SM7341EHKP http://www.sinopowersemi.com/temp/SM7341EHKP_datasheet.pdf


----------



## kimizle

Thanks alot! how does it compare to fairchild variant? My apology I don't know how to interpret the data sheet


----------



## Cyph3r

ASRock Taichi vs Asus Z370-E Strix?

Should I swap my Asus E Strix for the Taichi? (thinking about doing it tomorrow)


----------



## AlphaC

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kimizle*
> 
> Thanks alot! how does it compare to fairchild variant? My apology I don't know how to interpret the data sheet


It's slower but less lossy for the low side fet. I'm not sure how Asrock setup the BIOS but the components themselves are this way. If the BIOs is set up to switch the same speed on both the Fairchild/Sinopowers then the major advantage to Fairchild mosfet variants is lost.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Cyph3r*
> 
> ASRock Taichi vs Asus Z370-E Strix?
> 
> Should I swap my Asus E Strix for the Taichi? (thinking about doing it tomorrow)


The answer is yes , unless it requires quite a bunch of money.

The Z370-E STRIX is not a $200 board in terms of featureset and components. I would say it's more like a $140 board with wifi on it.

EDIT:

Z370 FTW review suggests the BIOs holds it back.
Quote:


> After finding the Z370 FTW pulling only 129W from the wall with 12 threads of Prime95 running (small FFTS), a check with Intel's XTU monitoring revealed that the cores were hovering between 4.0 GHz and 4.1 GHz while being power throttled. A check through every firmware setting revealed no means with which to change the power throttle point, and increasing the short and long power maximums under Intel XTU had no effect.
> 
> ...
> The default Cache IccMax was found to be holding it back. Increasing that to its XTU limit, we finally reached 4.30 GHz all-cores-loaded with no current limit throttling.



Power in Watts (total system):

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/evga-z370-ftw-134-ks-e377-kr-motherboard,5352-4.html

*Another Fatal1ty ITX review*


Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!






https://3dnews.ru/963271/page-2.html#%D0%A0%D0%B0%D0%B7%D0%B3%D0%BE%D0%BD%20%D0%B8%20%D1%81%D1%82%D0%B0%D0%B1%D0%B8%D0%BB%D1%8C%D0%BD%D0%BE%D1%81%D1%82%D1%8C

*And yet another Fatal1ty ITX review*


Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!







https://www.overclockers.ru/lab/88722/obzor-i-testirovanie-materinskoj-platy-asrock-fatal1ty-z370-gaming-itx-ac.html

*Z370N WIFI disaster*

http://playwares.com/pcreview/55953605#


----------



## Cyph3r

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AlphaC*
> 
> The answer is yes , unless it requires quite a bunch of money.
> 
> The Z370-E STRIX is not a $200 board in terms of featureset and components. I would say it's more like a $140 board with wifi on it.


Thanks for answering!

The price for these 2 boards are pretty much exactly the same at the store I use! I guess I'm packing up the Strix to get the Asrock









I had returned the Maximus X Hero Wi-Fi due to weird quirks, I didn't know what else to get so I sorta just went with the Strix... doh.


----------



## bobcool

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *tiefox*
> 
> I think I'm the culprit on spreading the watercool.de plans for the Apex, I understood that they were doing a VRM cooler for the Maximus X Apex but it turns out they are doing for the Rampage VI Apex, X299. *There is no VRM blocks for the z370 apex right now,* event the z270 apex EK monoblock does not fit apparently. But the Maximus X does not seem to need a vrm block anyway.
> 
> I was also expecting to run my memory faster without any issues, but only after it got released that I saw that it was not in the QVL ( I bough the memory kit in a trip to the USA back in September ).
> 
> Yeah, both the formula and the apex are big boards, I have it on an Enthoo Primo full tower, so no problem fitting it.


Bitspower has the only mono block I know of for the z370 Apex.


----------



## mattia128

hi guys msi z370 Gaming M5 vrm is cooling ?


----------



## encrypted11

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Cyph3r*
> 
> Thanks for answering!
> 
> The price for these 2 boards are pretty much exactly the same at the store I use! I guess I'm packing up the Strix to get the Asrock
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I had returned the Maximus X Hero Wi-Fi due to weird quirks, I didn't know what else to get so I sorta just went with the Strix... doh.


The entire line of ASUS Z370 boards running 2x2 MIMO are using Realtek WiFi chipsets. ASRock is sporting Intel AC8265 or a similar model along with vendors like Gigabyte and MSI.


----------



## stoker

I ended up getting the Asrock Extreme 4, everything else was all sold out. Can someone help me with the location of the Ram vrms to identify what version mine has.


----------



## sherpa25

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *stoker*
> 
> I ended up getting the Asrock Extreme 4, everything else was all sold out. Can someone help me with the location of the Ram vrms to identify what version mine has.


This is c/o @AlphaC, thanks to him.

I believe you'd have to remove the cover (screws at the bottom?) to see them.

"F" symbol for the Fairchild: http://www.overclock.net/t/1638955/z370-z390-vrm-discussion-thread/110#post_26386434

The other is a 7341 which is Sinopower SM7341EHKP:
http://www.overclock.net/t/1638955/z370-z390-vrm-discussion-thread/40#post_26379948


----------



## stoker

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *sherpa25*
> 
> I believe you'd have to remove the cover (screws at the bottom?) to see them.


Thanks I do know this.

I have read that if you find the ones in the ram location the main vrms will be the same type.


----------



## sherpa25

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *stoker*
> 
> Thanks I do know this.
> I have read that if you find the ones in the ram location the main vrms will be the same type.


Oops, sorry.


----------



## stoker

Hey all good.


----------



## encrypted11

Fairchild FDPC5030SG for my memory VRMs. They left for my distributor via sea shipment around week 44-45 (late oct).


----------



## Melodist

Should I go for the Prime Z370 or Taichi? I am mainly looking for components quality (durability) than features such as LED and what not.


----------



## bl4ckdot

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Melodist*
> 
> Should I go for the Prime Z370 or Taichi? I am mainly looking for components quality (durability) than features such as LED and what not.


Then it's obvious : Taichi.


----------



## Melodist

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bl4ckdot*
> 
> Then it's obvious : Taichi.


What bugs me a lot though is they don't give any information about warranty, seems unprofessional.


----------



## bl4ckdot

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Melodist*
> 
> What bugs me a lot though is they don't give any information about warranty, seems unprofessional.


I guess it depends where you are from. In EU it's the reseller that handle the warranty so I never really been affected by that.


----------



## Melodist

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bl4ckdot*
> 
> I guess it depends where you are from. In EU it's the reseller that handle the warranty so I never really been affected by that.


Yes EU but how long is it? 2 Years? 3 Years? 4? 5?


----------



## bl4ckdot

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Melodist*
> 
> Yes EU but how long is it? 2 Years? 3 Years? 4? 5?


Seems to be 3 years in France at least.


----------



## Cyph3r

So I swapped my Z370-E Strix for the ASRock Taichi. It feels like a much better board right out of the box.

Can someone tell me which version I have? The Fairchild or the other one? Apparently the Mem and main VRMs always match?


----------



## bl4ckdot

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Cyph3r*
> 
> So I swapped my Z370-E Strix for the ASRock Taichi. It feels like a much better board right out of the box.
> 
> Can someone tell me which version I have? The Fairchild or the other one? Apparently the Mem and main VRMs always match?


Dead link


----------



## Cyph3r

@bl4ckdot

Fixed


----------



## Melodist

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Cyph3r*
> 
> So I swapped my Z370-E Strix for the ASRock Taichi. It feels like a much better board right out of the box.
> 
> Can someone tell me which version I have? The Fairchild or the other one? Apparently the Mem and main VRMs always match?


Yeah? You think it is worth spending the extra on the board?

It is odd that people only buy the Strix and not the Prime Z370 / Taichi, the only thing I see is the Strix.


----------



## Cyph3r

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Melodist*
> 
> Yeah? You think it is worth spending the extra on the board?
> 
> It is odd that people only buy the Strix and not the Prime Z370 / Taichi, the only thing I see is the Strix.


Well for me, the Strix-E and the Taichi are the same price, well the Taichi was £3 cheaper.

The Taichi feels and looks far more premium. It boots faster, and the VCore is rock steady, the Strix-E would overshoot/undershoot depending on which LLC level I used, even with the latest BIOS.

There's no question, for £200, forget the Strix-E... get the Taichi!

I'm very happy with my rig now.


----------



## T-Datto

Omg, and now this mosfet problem (fairchild or sino...)

Dammmm

If will buy a z370 with closed eye

taichi is $230
k6 is $199
extreme4 is $175


----------



## Melodist

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Cyph3r*
> 
> Well for me, the Strix-E and the Taichi are the same price, well the Taichi was £3 cheaper.
> 
> The Taichi feels and looks far more premium. It boots faster, and the VCore is rock steady, the Strix-E would overshoot/undershoot depending on which LLC level I used, even with the latest BIOS.
> 
> There's no question, for £200, forget the Strix-E... get the Taichi!
> 
> I'm very happy with my rig now.


So you'd really recommend the Asrock board compared with the others?


----------



## Cyph3r

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Melodist*
> 
> So you'd really recommend the Asrock board compared with the others?


Well I've only tried the Maximus X Hero, Strix-E and Taichi. The Taichi is my favourite of the 3 though.


----------



## Tomasz86

After going threw all 151 pages of the thread and nibbling here and there on this forum i decided to go for the following:

Intel - Core i7-8700K 3.7GHz
Gigabyte Aorus GeForce GTX 1060 Xtreme Edition 6G 9Gbps (Rev. 1.0)
Super Flower Leadex II Gold 850W ATX 2.3
ASRock Z370 Taichi LGA 1151
be quiet! - Silent Loop 360 65.5 CFM Liquid CPU Cooler
G.SKILL TridentZ 2 x 8GB DDR4 3600 (PC4 28800) CL15
Corsair - 750D Airflow Edition ATX Full Tower Case
Samsung - 850 EVO 500GB M.2-2280 SSD
Seagate - Barracuda 2TB 3.5" 7200RPM HDD
Thermal Grizzly - Kryonaut copy pasta
BenQ ZOWIE XL2411P

I will spend around 2100 euros to waste my life on "_playing 1080p games on Ultra (GPU bound) 60fps two hours...







_ " just to see it all go to hell when the AIO leaks.

Thanks for the info and please scroll along.


----------



## Melodist

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Tomasz86*
> 
> After going threw all 151 pages of the thread and nibbling here and there on this forum i decided to go for the following:
> 
> Intel - Core i7-8700K 3.7GHz
> Gigabyte Aorus GeForce GTX 1060 Xtreme Edition 6G 9Gbps (Rev. 1.0)
> Super Flower Leadex II Gold 850W ATX 2.3
> ASRock Z370 Taichi LGA 1151
> be quiet! - Silent Loop 360 65.5 CFM Liquid CPU Cooler
> G.SKILL TridentZ 2 x 8GB DDR4 3600 (PC4 28800) CL15
> Corsair - 750D Airflow Edition ATX Full Tower Case
> Samsung - 850 EVO 500GB M.2-2280 SSD
> Seagate - Barracuda 2TB 3.5" 7200RPM HDD
> Thermal Grizzly - Kryonaut copy pasta
> BenQ ZOWIE XL2411P
> 
> I will spend around 2100 euros to waste my life on "_playing 1080p games on Ultra (GPU bound) 60fps two hours...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _ " just to see it all go to hell when the AIO leaks.
> 
> Thanks for the info and please scroll along.


No need for AIO with this CPU, Noctua and you're fine.


----------



## AlphaC

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Cyph3r*
> 
> So I swapped my Z370-E Strix for the ASRock Taichi. It feels like a much better board right out of the box.
> 
> Can someone tell me which version I have? The Fairchild or the other one? Apparently the Mem and main VRMs always match?


F = Fairchild.


----------



## Cyph3r

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AlphaC*
> 
> F = Fairchild.


Yay


----------



## stoker

So after having no joy finding anything in the ram section I decided to take off the vrm heatsink.

Very Happy


----------



## T-Datto

If I take the Asrock K6 in my hands, can I see if the mosfets are fairchild without removing the heatsink?


----------



## AlphaC

Unless someone finds a definitive way other than removing the VRM heatsink, I don't think so.


----------



## T-Datto

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AlphaC*
> 
> Unless someone finds a definitive way other than removing the VRM heatsink, I don't think so.


AlphaC
What is the vcore they are using for i5 8600k in 4.8ghz and 5ghz?
After much reading this topic, I do not think it's worth stressing both the processor because of 200mhz. 4.8ghz looks great already.
What is the vcore difference you are normally using between 4.8 and 5ghz?

Thank you


----------



## Clausewitz

I think it's safe to assume the VRMs are operating very similarly on Asrock boards regardless of brand due to BIOS configuration. It would make the most sense. Just a guess.


----------



## Solarity

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *T-Datto*
> 
> AlphaC
> What is the vcore they are using for i5 8600k in 4.8ghz and 5ghz?
> After much reading this topic, I do not think it's worth stressing both the processor because of 200mhz. 4.8ghz looks great already.
> What is the vcore difference you are normally using between 4.8 and 5ghz?
> 
> Thank you


I have the 8600k and it should be able to easily hit 5ghz, according to SL site:
Quote:


> As of 12/01/17, the top 84% of tested 8600Ks were able to hit 5.0GHz or greater.


It seems like people are doing various methods of overclocking, even on the same motherboard. I am running mine at ~1.29v at 5Ghz and have a AVX of -2. Though I have a Gaming 7, so your mileage may vary.

Also, I see your name is Datto, do you work for that company?


----------



## MacT

Hey!

Thank you, *AlphaC* for valuable information about motherboards. Right now I choosing Taichi.
But make me curious about audio. Have Gaming 7 better audio against Taichi? They both have ALC1220.

Mainly taking Taichi because they can competition to high-end boards


----------



## Solarity

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MacT*
> 
> Hey!
> 
> Thank you, *AlphaC* for valuable information about motherboards. Right now I choosing Taichi.
> But make me curious about audio. Have Gaming 7 better audio against Taichi? They both have ALC1220.
> 
> Mainly taking Taichi because they can competition to high-end boards


One pro review I read stated that the Gaming 7 z370 was second only to the Gaming 9 z270, which is the previous chip set, but a $500 board. Just looking at the stats the Gaming 7 comes with the Wimo caps as well as the Nichicon Gold caps. It also has the ESS Sabre reference DAC. I am no audiophile, so AlphaC and others can chip in, though those red WIMA caps stick out as they are also in a lot of expensive external DACs.


----------



## T-Datto

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Solarity*
> 
> I have the 8600k and it should be able to easily hit 5ghz, according to SL site:
> It seems like people are doing various methods of overclocking, even on the same motherboard. I am running mine at ~1.29v at 5Ghz and have a AVX of -2. Though I have a Gaming 7, so your mileage may vary.
> 
> Also, I see your name is Datto, do you work for that company?


I living in Brazil.


----------



## MacT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Solarity*
> 
> One pro review I read stated that the Gaming 7 z370 was second only to the Gaming 9 z270, which is the previous chip set, but a $500 board. Just looking at the stats the Gaming 7 comes with the Wimo caps as well as the Nichicon Gold caps. It also has the ESS Sabre reference DAC. I am no audiophile, so AlphaC and others can chip in, though those red WIMA caps stick out as they are also in a lot of expensive external DACs.


Thx for input







Hmm actually Taichi comes with Nichicon Gold caps and audio chip is NE5532


----------



## asdkj1740

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MacT*
> 
> Thx for input
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hmm actually Taichi comes with Nichicon Gold caps and audio chip is NE5532


nicicon gold caps are nothing special. and they are very cheap.
ne5532 is an amplifirer but not the audio chip, the audio chip is still alc1220.

asrock calls its audio tech as "purity sound".
the purity sound gen 4 on z370 is quiet similar to gen 3 on x99 taichi for example.
the new things are gold jacks and connector which are again not that outstanding.
while the last new improvement is "Individual PCB Layers for R/L Audio Channel", which seem to be impressive.
however, gen 4 has way fewer nicicon gold caps compared to gen 3...


----------



## MacT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *asdkj1740*
> 
> nicicon gold caps are nothing special.
> ne5532 is an amplifirer but not the audio chip, the audio chip is still alc1220.
> 
> asrock calls its audio tech as "purity sound".
> the purity sound gen 4 on z370 is quiet similar to gen 3 on x99 taichi for example.
> the new things are gold jacks and connector which are again not that outstanding.
> while the last new improvement is "Individual PCB Layers for R/L Audio Channel", which is impressive.


Okay, my bad and made some mistake here








So you suggest Gaming 7 against Asrock Taichi? I am not audiophile either.


----------



## Cyph3r

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MacT*
> 
> Okay, my bad and made some mistake here
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> So you suggest Gaming 7 against Asrock Taichi? I am not audiophile either.


Both are good motherboards, I wouldn't make the decision based of their audio. I very much doubt you'd be able to hear any difference between the two.


----------



## Solarity

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Cyph3r*
> 
> Both are good motherboards, I wouldn't make the decision based of their audio. I very much doubt you'd be able to hear any difference between the two.


If anything the headphones would be more of the limiting factor at this point.

Personal I am bias toward the Gaming 7. It is about $10 difference here in the US in price and Gigabyte has a good name.

Also, if you look at Alpha's list, the Gaming 7 is rated higher than the Taichi: http://cdn.overclock.net/d/df/df50d7d4_z370lineup-WIP.png

Other differences:

Taichi:
Bluetooth
Wifi

Gaming 7:
Slightly better VRM
RGB King, lot more RGB LEDs on motherboard, if you hate them, you can turn them off.
-2xWRGB headers, w=white, while Taichi only has one regular RGB
--2xWRGB headers are on the same zone, but two different locations for plugging them in and I am guessing more power as well.
-2xDigital RGB header with jumper for 5v/12v, for addressable RGB
3amp pump header, Taichi has only a 1.5amp pump header. You can run a D5 pump off the mobo on the Gaming 7 (this is for water cooling)
You can buy a monoblock for this motherboard if you want to cool the VRM, I don't see one available for the ASRock

I can't speak for software differences in bios and applications.

IMHO the Gaming 7 is a much better value for the price I got it and even for the price it is currently at. I have a wifi card if I ever need it, though my router is right next to my PC. Also I love having everything powered off my motherboard. I do not have a molex or a sata power cable plugged into my modular PSU. Everything including my D5 pump is plugged into my motherboard 3amp header. I couldn't do this if I had the Taichi. The Gaming 7 is more water cooling friendly based off mono block availability and high amp water pump header. The more I look into the ASRock the happier I am I got the Gaming 7.


----------



## Cyph3r

If the difference is only $10 then go for the Gigabyte. Here in the UK, the Gigabyte is about £50-£60 ($65-$80) more than the Taichi.


----------



## GreedyMuffin

A mate had a Gaming 7. He was far from happy with it. He returned it for a Hero X and was very pleased.

I returned the Hero for a Taichi and I'm very happy.


----------



## Cyph3r

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *GreedyMuffin*
> 
> A mate had a Gaming 7. He was far from happy with it. He returned it for a Hero X and was very pleased.
> 
> I returned the Hero for a Taichi and I'm very happy.


Yep - I went from Hero X, to Strix-E, finally to Taichi and now I'm happy.


----------



## asdkj1740

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Cyph3r*
> 
> Both are good motherboards, I wouldn't make the decision based of their audio. I very much doubt you'd be able to hear any difference between the two.


excatly, you should not choose between them simply based on audio section.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Cyph3r*
> 
> If the difference is only $10 then go for the Gigabyte. Here in the UK, the Gigabyte is about £50-£60 ($65-$80) more than the Taichi.


agree.
~$60 external sound card should be better than any integrated audio on the mobo.
and 2018 is already started, it is not wise to spend too much on z370.

i would go for lowest end z370 now, like hd3p from gigabte, with and buy z390 later.
as long as intel does not change the ddr4 overclcoking permit on chipsets, z370 second handed price wont fall too much.


----------



## MacT

Hmm on here Estonia we have difference of Gaming 7 and Taichi about 60-70$ (50-60 eur) euros.
Excatly, makes me little worry because I already have i7-8700k and should I send it back or wait a Cannonlake ?








I go with Taichi and I wont spend too much for board right now.


----------



## Solarity

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MacT*
> 
> Hmm on here Estonia we have difference of Gaming 7 and Taichi about 60-70$ (50-60 eur) euros.
> Excatly, makes me little worry because I already have i7-8700k and should I send it back or wait a Cannonlake ?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I go with Taichi and I wont spend too much for board right now.


It can always come down to price to performance. Unless you are obsessed with RGB and run a D5 pump off the pump header like I do, then for the price difference the Taichi might be a better option.

Coffee Lake was released early due to AMD releasing a better than expected chip. I don't see them releasing Cannon Lake any time soon. Either go with a z370 w/ the 8700k or just return it and wait a year + and get the z390 and Cannon lake i7. Technology out paces it yourself and there will always be a new thing coming out. I don't think I have ever upgraded just the CPU, if I am lucky I might just upgrade the GPU. In most cases my system is a few years old and it just make sense to do a whole refresh. If you need a new PC, then now is a great time to get one. If this was early this fall, I would have suggested waiting for Coffee lake to be released. If you have an 6 or 7 gen Intel CPU, I would wait.


----------



## Dragonsyph

So I'm trying to pick between Asrock z370 Taichi, OR, Gigabyte z370 Aorus Gaming 7 board. Which is the best for CPU and RAM overclocking with the lowest VRM temps? Nothing else matters.


----------



## Cyph3r

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Dragonsyph*
> 
> So I'm trying to pick between Asrock z370 Taichi, OR, Gigabyte z370 Aorus Gaming 7 board. Which is the best for CPU and RAM overclocking with the lowest VRM temps? Nothing else matters.


Both have good quality VRM/power delivery components. Supposedly the Taichi is better for very high memory overclocks. Both are good with VRM cooling (early reports of the Gaming 7 shown some had poorly attached vrm heatsinks which led to high temps, though I imagine that's sorted now).

Taichi is significantly cheaper though.


----------



## navjack27

Unless you need a feature on either of those I'll just recommend the extreme 4 if it's cheaper. Check my signature, it's a great board for clocking.


----------



## ehume

I have a Gigabyte Aorus Z370 Gaming 7. What is this (pardon the out-of-focus target):



It is not the audio -- that is off to the left. This does not show up in the diagram in the manual (I always scan/RTFM).


----------



## AlphaC

ehume it's probably LED demo. I doubt it it is for thermocouple since there's no thermocouples provided.


----------



## T-Datto

Now my question is...
Msi gaming M5 or Asrock fatality k6 ?

Same price, $200


----------



## GreedyMuffin

K6 without a doubt.


----------



## T-Datto

thanks man!


----------



## Solarity

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AlphaC*
> 
> ehume it's probably LED demo. I doubt it it is for thermocouple since there's no thermocouples provided.


This got my curious, it is the LED Demo, which is for demo'ing the LEDs of the MB for display purposes. i.e. plug power into that header and it will show what the LEDs look like.

It seems like it is odd that they have that for a production board, I mean how often do companies display a motherboard like this?


----------



## Icanthelplt90

So I need a Matx(preferred) or itx board. Gonna be overclocking and custom water-cooling. I have read through mostly everything here and unless I'm missing something the ASRock z370 itx Fatal1ty is the way to go? Better vrms and higher wattage limit available?


----------



## Shaon

Hi. This is my first post to overclock.net









Recently, I bought a 8700k, Noctua D15s and16gb Tridentz 3200 memory and now looking for a good motherboard to complete my setup.

I've read many pages of this thread and narrowed down 3 mobos : Gigabyte gaming 5, gaming 7 and Asus maximus X hero.

In my country the price of the mobos are:
Gaming 5 ---- USD 256
Gaming 7 and X hero both are at ---- USD 330

I'm not looking for extreme oc (4.8GHz is enough) but I need a mobo which going to last long considering continuous 8-12 hours of daily usage (gaming, coding etc.)

Which mobo should I get?

Seeking suggestion from the mobo expert @AlphaC and others









Thank you.


----------



## Solarity

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Icanthelplt90*
> 
> So I need a Matx(preferred) or itx board. Gonna be overclocking and custom water-cooling. I have read through mostly everything here and unless I'm missing something the ASRock z370 itx Fatal1ty is the way to go? Better vrms and higher wattage limit available?


Looking over AlphaC's list it looks like the Fatal1ty is the best in class, when comparing matx and itx. It doesn't look like there is any top tier MBs that are matx/itx.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Shaon*
> 
> Hi. This is my first post to overclock.net
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Recently, I bought a 8700k, Noctua D15s and16gb Tridentz 3200 memory and now looking for a good motherboard to complete my setup.
> 
> I've read many pages of this thread and narrowed down 3 mobos : Gigabyte gaming 5, gaming 7 and Asus maximus X hero.
> 
> In my country the price of the mobos are:
> Gaming 5 ---- $256
> Gaming 7 and X hero both are at ---- $330
> 
> I'm not looking for extreme oc (4.8GHz is enough) but I need a mobo which going to last long considering continuous 8-12 hours of daily usage (gaming, coding etc.)
> 
> Which mobo should I get?
> 
> Seeking suggestion from the mobo expert @AlphaC and others
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you.


Is that in USD? I got my Gaming 7 for less than half of what you can buy it for 0_o. Granted the $50 cpu combo deal helped a lot. I would go with the Gaming 7 over the X hero as the Gaming 7 is rated in a higher tier in AlphaC's sheet. I love Asus, but they have usually have a hefty ROG tax on their ROG items. See if you can get a better deal or combo to lower the price of one of these. The gaming 5 is decent, though another option is the Extreme4.


----------



## Dragonsyph

SECONDS from buying a cpu motherboard and ram.

If you guys HAD to pick, Asrock Z370 taichi, 219 bucks OR Gygabite z370 Gaming 7 219 bucks.


----------



## Icanthelplt90

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Solarity*
> 
> Looking over AlphaC's list it looks like the Fatal1ty is the best in class, when comparing matx and itx. It doesn't look like there is any top tier MBs that are matx/itx.


Yeah i saw the list but allot of the posts talking about them were from after Nov. when he updated the list so i was just asking to see if opinions had changed at all. I was kind of interested in the EVGA mAtx board but not sure how that stacks up either.


----------



## Solarity

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Dragonsyph*
> 
> SECONDS from buying a cpu motherboard and ram.
> 
> If you guys HAD to pick, Asrock Z370 taichi, 219 bucks OR Gygabite z370 Gaming 7 219 bucks.


Hold off, for a second AlphaC sent me a link to a new chart that was updated last week. Find out why the Taichi dropped a notch, on the list, before buying. I know there was something different between the some of the boards having Fairchild or sinopower components.

http://www.overclock.net/t/1638955/z370-z390-vrm-discussion-thread/40#post_26381626
http://cdn.overclock.net/4/48/48550d91_z370lineup-WIP.png


----------



## bl4ckdot

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Solarity*
> 
> Hold off, for a second AlphaC sent me a link to a new chart that was updated last week. Find out why the Taichi dropped a notch, on the list, before buying. I know there was something different between the some of the boards having Fairchild or sinopower components.
> 
> http://www.overclock.net/t/1638955/z370-z390-vrm-discussion-thread/40#post_26381626
> http://cdn.overclock.net/4/48/48550d91_z370lineup-WIP.png


Thanks. So it turns out the Formula is a bit more different than expected compared to the Hero


----------



## Shaon

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Solarity*
> 
> Is that in USD? I got my Gaming 7 for less than half of what you can buy it for 0_o. Granted the $50 cpu combo deal helped a lot. I would go with the Gaming 7 over the X hero as the Gaming 7 is rated in a higher tier in AlphaC's sheet. I love Asus, but they have usually have a hefty ROG tax on their ROG items. See if you can get a better deal or combo to lower the price of one of these. The gaming 5 is decent, though another option is the Extreme4.


Thanks for the reply.

Yes that's in USD. Pc parts are very pricey in my country.

I liked the gaming 7's spec but not feeling confident for the vrm overheating issue. Also some people complained at Tomshardware about the pins of the cpu socket been bent from factory.

I'm staying away from Asrock mobos this time because of the very bad experience on z77 chipset.


----------



## Solarity

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Shaon*
> 
> Thanks for the reply.
> 
> Yes that's in USD. Pc parts are very pricey in my country.
> 
> I liked the gaming 7's spec but not feeling confident for the vrm overheating issue. Also some people complained at Tomshardware about the pins of the cpu socket been bent from factory.
> 
> I'm staying away from Asrock mobos this time because of the very bad experience on z77 chipset.


In general there will always be some issues in anything that is mass produced. One Gaming 7 we ordered was DOA, though we got it replaced quickly. Asus and Gigabyte do normally make quality MB and now it seems Asrock has joined them. The VRM issues were few, but usually fixed by tightening the screw on the back of the motherboard for the VRM. Just read throughout the this thread you will see people going returning their Gaming7, Taichi, or Maximus and then replacing it with a different motherboard, such as the Gaming7, Taichi, or Maximus. Again I have seen where some one has bought one of the three exchange for a different one of those 3 and be happy. The z370 is brand new and these motherboards are new as well. Just like how you can cut your finger on a new case, expect some pain, when you play with the bleeding edge


----------



## Randallel

Which mid range or high tier mobo has the best WiFi?


----------



## tashcz

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Randallel*
> 
> Which mid range or high tier mobo has the best WiFi?


Asus' Hero X AC?


----------



## asdkj1740

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Randallel*
> 
> Which mid range or high tier mobo has the best WiFi?


check the speed, 433Mbps sucks, 8xx is great.


----------



## Cyph3r

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *tashcz*
> 
> Asus' Hero X AC?


I had problems with the Realtek WiFi on the Maximus X.

I've now got a Taichi which had a 433mbps Intel 3168, but before I even booted the board I swapped it over to an 867mbps Intel 8265. No problems, way better than the Hero WiFi


----------



## AlphaC

Confirmation on Z370-G STRIX mATX

http://www.xfastest.com/thread-204010-1-1.html


---

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/msi-z370i-gaming-pro-carbon-ac-motherboard,5341-4.html
Quote:


> Core i7-8700K specification requires the CPU ratio to drop from 47X to 44X when increasing the load from one core to six. The foreground image shows that the Z370I Gaming Pro Carbon AC correspondingly drops the CPU core voltage in an attempt to maximize efficiency, which we don't always see in its competitor's products. The background image shows a different issue, that the board also limits CPU current to Intel's 140W TDP: Since nobody else does that, we "uncapped" its settings during our power test. All of the CPU's other power-savings features remain enabled on every model and test in today's comparison.





----

bl4ckdot , the powerstage on the ROG Formula has slower rise time (more switching losses) but the part has lower thermal resistance to the mosfet casing. It's best used for custom loops. If not using the VRM block, the board basically has no fin area along with air (a thermal insulator) inside the VRM block.

However, it does use an IR3599 interleaved doubler.

Also confirmed on arabhardware (https://arabhardware.net/2018/01/03/asus-rog-maximus-x-formula/), rather than just greentech reviews (http://greentechreviews.ru/2017/12/16/obzor-materinskoj-platy-asus-rog-maximus-formula/) and darktech (http://darktech-reviews.com/11340).


----------



## bl4ckdot

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AlphaC*
> 
> Confirmation on Z370-G STRIX mATX
> 
> bl4ckdot , the powerstage on the ROG Formula has slower rise time (more switching losses) but the part has lower thermal resistance to the mosfet casing. It's best used for custom loops. If not using the VRM block, the board basically has no fin area along with air (a thermal insulator) inside the VRM block.
> 
> However, it does use an IR3599 interleaved doubler.
> 
> Also confirmed on arabhardware (https://arabhardware.net/2018/01/03/asus-rog-maximus-x-formula/), rather than just greentech reviews (http://greentechreviews.ru/2017/12/16/obzor-materinskoj-platy-asus-rog-maximus-formula/) and darktech (http://darktech-reviews.com/11340).


Thank you, but as I'm not as knowledgeable does it mean it is good or bad ?

As for the cooling, I won't be using CLC for now (it is however planned, main reason why I went with the Formula instead of the Code), and I'm wondering if it's going to be fine for an overclock to 5.1 and gaming ?


----------



## Randallel

I can't decide between the Aorus Gaming 5 or the Strix-E. Any feedback would be appreciated.


----------



## AlphaC

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bl4ckdot*
> 
> Thank you, but as I'm not as knowledgeable does it mean it is good or bad ?
> 
> As for the cooling, I won't be using CLC for now (it is however planned, main reason why I went with the Formula instead of the Code), and I'm wondering if it's going to be fine for an overclock to 5.1 and gaming ?


It's alright if you run it on water. Basically it's much slower (and slightly less efficient) than IR3555 / ISL99227B but still a 60A Powerstage. The majority of the loss will be on the high side of the powerstage which lowers efficiency to around 90% if you go by the "typical" rise/fall times rather than maximums. The reason it can be rated 60A is due to the 3.3°C/W highside and 1.5°C/W lowside max thermal resistance along with very low RDS(on) for the low side of 1.17milliohms.


The limiting factor isn't the IR3599 as evidenced by the min rise / fall switching times lower than 20ns


Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!








NOTE (method to the madness): Most boards I put in the "top tier" are above 93% efficient or so, Upper mid-range are mostly over 90% or so ... there's boards such as the ASUS Z370-I STRIX that can easily be 92% efficient _but mosfet limited_ that go in the lower section. I wouldn't recommend the Formula on air cooled or closed loop systems without using the VRM heatsink block.
As BIOS updates and board limits can skew things heavily, I go primarily on components first (this includes doubling scheme , inductor selection , capacitor selection) and then if there's an anomaly based on reviews I notate that and adjust accordingly. If anyone has any thoughts on how to improve or simplify the grouping further, I'd like to hear it. I standardize based on 130A + 1.4V (about 180W).

Rough approximation of 93% efficiency , with estimated temp based on 30°C board temp:


Efficiency curve isn't flat, so this is merely a crude approximation.
Implementing the curve from the datasheets it would be more like


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Randallel*
> 
> I can't decide between the Aorus Gaming 5 or the Strix-E. Any feedback would be appreciated.


There's not going to be a huge difference. The STRIX -E/F may have faster mosfets on paper but they're hampered by the dual driver & lack of heatpipe at the VRM heatsink. The Aorus Gaming 5 has a higher package power limit but the mosfet switching is slightly slower. There's a few reviews showing the Z370 Gaming 5 cooler than the STRIX-E/F but there's nothing definitive. As far as longevity, the STRIX boards use 5K hour capacitors similar to the Prime Z370-A. The Gaming 5 is using 10K hour ones.

Both boards should have been about $150-160 boards plus whatever you value the wifi at. They're both copy+paste jobs for the most part from Z270.


----------



## striker3

Thx alpha fir thus nice thread i have very limited experience about this vrm thing . and wanna buy z370 mb and have limited choice in my country my main usage gonna be games and hope to oc cpu to 5 ir 5.1 max . where i live is so hot in summer . so which one to pick. Msi pro carbon or msi m5 or asus z370-h or gigabyte gaming 5 the gaming 5 is more than my budget but if it worth ill buy it nothin better availabe here except gaming 7 and msi 600 dollar one.ill appriciate any help and feedback.thx


----------



## Randallel

I bought the Aorus Gaming 5, but I can't even get a stable OC. 4.8 GHz @ 1.34 VCore was my last try. Should I buy a different motherboard, or is it the chip? I followed a simple OC tutorial step by step.


----------



## Dragonsyph

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Randallel*
> 
> I bought the Aorus Gaming 5, but I can't even get a stable OC. 4.8 GHz @ 1.34 VCore was my last try. Should I buy a different motherboard, or is it the chip? I followed a simple OC tutorial step by step.


At default bios and everything at stock, how much voltage was your CPU pulling at 100%?>


----------



## Randallel

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Dragonsyph*
> 
> At default bios and everything at stock, how much voltage was your CPU pulling at 100%?>


It's probably the chip. I had to factory reset, but at least I can run stress tests without Windows constantly restarting. I'm around 4.8 GHz @1.31. One of the cores is around 80, while another one is at 60. I reapplied liquid metal, but that same core is still higher than the rest.


----------



## Dragonsyph

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Randallel*
> 
> It's probably the chip. I had to factory reset, but at least I can run stress tests without Windows constantly restarting. I'm around 4.8 GHz @1.31. One of the cores is around 80, while another one is at 60. I reapplied liquid metal, but that same core is still higher than the rest.


 Ya it's probly the chip, if they take a lot of voltage at stock then your gonna hit a voltage wall pretty quick. I think mine was only taking about 1.12v at all core 4.7ghz 100% load. with everything on auto. So with that I'm at 5.1ghz 1.28v. up to 1.36v spikes with AVX stress tests. I'm at a thermal wall my self, need to delid and get a better cooler then a 50 year old h100i.

You doing off set or fixed voltage? You might try a neg off set with a high LLC. What voltage do you have idle vs 100% load?


----------



## ehume

Thanks to my extensive correspondence with AlphaC and lurking here I finally bit on an i7 8700k with an Aorus Gaming 7. Anybody have suggestions on overclocking this beast? I will be comparing heatsinks and AIO's, And I want my CPU to push 90C with a Megahalems. This will give me plenty of room for the Noctuas.


----------



## Randallel

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Dragonsyph*
> 
> Ya it's probly the chip, if they take a lot of voltage at stock then your gonna hit a voltage wall pretty quick. I think mine was only taking about 1.12v at all core 4.7ghz 100% load. with everything on auto. So with that I'm at 5.1ghz 1.28v. up to 1.36v spikes with AVX stress tests. I'm at a thermal wall my self, need to delid and get a better cooler then a 50 year old h100i.
> 
> You doing off set or fixed voltage? You might try a neg off set with a high LLC. What voltage do you have idle vs 100% load?


Fixed voltage. How would I go about doing a negative off set?


----------



## Dragonsyph

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Randallel*
> 
> Fixed voltage. How would I go about doing a negative off set?


 Change it from fixed to off set, then a section should appear below it to input a voltage off set and just type -40 for example. Im doing -50 with LLC1


----------



## ehume

I started overclocking my CPU today. Got it up to 5.0 GHz on 1.37 Vcore and a cache of 4.5 GHz -- a cache of 5 GHz produced spikes. Now mind you this is while using LinX 0.6.5 -- it runs AVX2, so no AVX drop for me. I tried OCCP, but it uses AVX and doesn't get my CPU hot enough. My basement is cold and my CPU looked to be running in the high 70's with an old Megahalems doing the cooling with two 1100-rpm fans.


----------



## VeritronX

hmm.. another question: gaming 7 with cpu block, or gaming 5 with monoblock? both would cost about the same.


----------



## asdkj1740

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *VeritronX*
> 
> hmm.. another question: gaming 7 with cpu block, or gaming 5 with monoblock? both would cost about the same.


cpu block should be able to reuse.


----------



## T-Datto

reading this topic and these vdrop problems of asrock (k6, taichi and extreme4), msi gaming m5 or gigabyte ultra gaming would not be a better choice for an overclocking in 4.9ghz?


----------



## Cyph3r

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *T-Datto*
> 
> reading this topic and these vdrop problems of asrock (k6, taichi and extreme4), msi gaming m5 or gigabyte ultra gaming would not be a better choice for an overclocking in 4.9ghz?


All Z370 motherboards had vdroop problems. However with the latest BIOS version this is mostly fixed. My Maximus X Hero and ASRock Taichi could hold the vcore rock steady. My Strix-E would undershoot or overshoot depending on the LLC level selected, but would be mostly stable.


----------



## T-Datto

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Cyph3r*
> 
> All Z370 motherboards had vdroop problems. However with the latest BIOS version this is mostly fixed. My Maximus X Hero and ASRock Taichi could hold the vcore rock steady. My Strix-E would undershoot or overshoot depending on the LLC level selected, but would be mostly stable.


So I think I'm going to buy Extreme4. It is cheaper than k6 and m5.

extreme4 174 dolars
k6 200 dolars
m5 207 dolars


----------



## walden1854

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *T-Datto*
> 
> So I think I'm going to buy Extreme4. It is cheaper than k6 and m5.
> 
> extreme4 174 dolars
> k6 200 dolars
> m5 207 dolars


As an honest question, if you like the k6 (assuming you do) and it's only $26 more why would not fork that up? Do you already have all your components and are just doing a mobo upgrade, or are you building an entire rig from scratch?

If you're spending a couple hundred dollars on a build it seems to make sense to allocate a higher proportion of that to a quality motherboard. But maybe you already slid your price point up once already. Not judging, it's your money! And incidentally I'm not even sure if my mobo selections are as nice as yours.... But just wondering.

-Walden


----------



## walden1854

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *T-Datto*
> 
> reading this topic and these vdrop problems of asrock (k6, taichi and extreme4), msi gaming m5 or gigabyte ultra gaming would not be a better choice for an overclocking in 4.9ghz?


Speaking of the MSI Gaming M5 (nearly identical to the Carbon) and the ASRock Taichi, I just started a thread about that in the main Intel Motherboards section.


----------



## asdkj1740

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iCv1QFTqse0&ab_channel=GamersNexus
it said the nzxt z370 n7 has 15 phases and the mosfets are from infineon.
full of taiwanese 5k caps....insanely cheap, at $300 msrp.
3866 ddr4 oc support only.
no usb3.1 gen2 at all, 4 sata ports only.
nzxt said this board is for fan control and led control, not aimming at oc.
4pins fan hearder*9.
ecs oem.


----------



## bl4ckdot

This NZXT board is going to fail so hard ...


----------



## AlphaC

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/nzxt-n7-z37xt-1151-coffee-lake-motherboard-review,5415-4.html


----------



## navjack27

Having used the ECS z97 machine... Avoid this NZXT motherboard like the plague.


----------



## Dragonsyph

Whats a safe temp for VRM's? My motherboard software is reading around 55C when I'm stess testing my CPU at 1.38v.


----------



## scracy

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Dragonsyph*
> 
> Whats a safe temp for VRM's? My motherboard software is reading around 55C when I'm stess testing my CPU at 1.38v.


55 degrees C is fine in fact thats really good, technically max temp for VRM's can be as high as 120 degrees C in some cases


----------



## Dragonsyph

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *scracy*
> 
> 55 degrees C is fine in fact thats really good, technically max temp for VRM's can be as high as 120 degrees C in some cases


 Ok nice, ya I cranked down the screws on the VRM heat sinks before installing, and got a fan on the back and a fan on the front hahaha. So 55c is good, ok thanks mate.


----------



## tashcz

Next thing we know Noctua is gonna make mice...


----------



## asdkj1740

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AlphaC*
> 
> http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/nzxt-n7-z37xt-1151-coffee-lake-motherboard-review,5415-4.html


impressive power draw.'

didnt mention the model of the mosfets, doubers are ir3598.
it seems to be 12+2+1
https://www.anandtech.com/show/12215/the-nzxt-n7-z370-motherboard-review/2
https://images.anandtech.com/doci/12215/boardvrm.jpg

btw, the sli bridge seems to be old version one, not new hb...


----------



## catacavaco

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *tashcz*
> 
> Next thing we know Noctua is gonna make mice...


an owl-shaped beige-and-brown overpriced mouse called "NOCTUA M110-pDsaq8y V2"


----------



## tashcz

With a 40mm fan to cool your hand


----------



## AlphaC

https://www.hwbox.gr/reviews/motherboards/41234-msi-z370-gaming-pro-carbon-review.html?showall=&start=2
"Η θερμοκρασία CPU στο δεξί παράθυρο του HWInfo αναφέρεται στα VRM και η System στο chipset."
translates to *The CPU temperature in the right window of HWInfo refers to VRM and System to the chipset.*



This suggests 65°C VRM temp for AIDA64 AVX load with 5GHz (below 1.3V) on i5-8600K and ~ 1250RPM fanspeed on the CPU cooler


----------



## Mars73

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AlphaC*
> 
> https://www.hwbox.gr/reviews/motherboards/41234-msi-z370-gaming-pro-carbon-review.html?showall=&start=2
> "Η θερμοκρασία CPU στο δεξί παράθυρο του HWInfo αναφέρεται στα VRM και η System στο chipset."
> translates to *The CPU temperature in the right window of HWInfo refers to VRM and System to the chipset.*
> 
> 
> 
> This suggests 65°C VRM temp for AIDA64 AVX load with 5GHz (below 1.3V) on i5-8600K and ~ 1250RPM fanspeed on the CPU cooler


Would love to know his settings (on the site it's a little small and not clickable).
For me with this motherboard and a 8700K I have it stable on 4.8 @ 1.29V and everything I do above is not stable.
Even 4.9 at 1.37/1.38 it's not stable, temps are not the main issue as it reboots/gsod long before hot temps are reached.
Reading people who reach 5 at below 1.3V...argghhh seems not possible here.


----------



## outofmyheadyo

Would someone just running custom loop get any benefit from going from the Asrock TAICHI to the Asus APEX?
Price difference is 100€ I have the Taichi on order but there is still time to cancel it and get the APEX








I also dont have any fancy fast memory just the old tridentz 3200 C14 kit.
Goal is to get the 8700k as far as it will go, but I have the feeling APEX is more for the LN2 crowd, and TAICHI would be more than enough to get whatever my 8700K is capable of?


----------



## Solarity

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *outofmyheadyo*
> 
> Would someone just running custom loop get any benefit from going from the Asrock TAICHI to the Asus APEX?
> Price difference is 100€ I have the Taichi on order but there is still time to cancel it and get the APEX
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I also dont have any fancy fast memory just the old tridentz 3200 C14 kit.
> Goal is to get the 8700k as far as it will go, but I have the feeling APEX is more for the LN2 crowd, and TAICHI would be more than enough to get whatever my 8700K is capable of?


I know that both the Apex AND Gigabyte Gaming 7 have 3amp pump headers, while the taichi only has 1.5amp pump headers. The D5 is a 1.46amp max draw pump, so if you wanted to hook it up you are at the limits of the taichi. The Apex does have a lot of features that woul go unused, if you are doing a custom loop.


----------



## outofmyheadyo

Well i dont use any motherboard headers anyway so that's irrelevant for me, used the aquaero6 for a long time., but thanks for the input.


----------



## AlphaC

Z370 Taichi review at overclockers.ru
https://www.overclockers.ru/lab/88973_4/obzor-i-testirovanie-materinskoj-platy-asrock-z370-taichi.html
(ON Semiconductor FDPC5030SG variant)
pushing 260W in Prime95 AVX without airflow per hwinfo , using closed loop liquid Thermaltake Water 3.0 Ultimate = 90 degrees with IR thermometer


This is on BIOS 1.40

Playwares review of MSI Z370 Krait
MCE off


(Prime95 FMA3 , ~180W power presumably at wall power meter , delta about 130W)

MCE on


(Prime95 FMA3 , ~215W power presumably at wall power meter / delta ~160W)
http://playwares.com/pcreview/56070279#

Note test condition is closed loop H110i , no extra airflow

pconline.com.cn, review of Maximus X Formula


(appears MCE was on since Cinebench R15 scored 1500ish)
http://diy.pconline.com.cn/1063/10635524_2.html
ROG Formula's VRM in very high resolution , confirming Vishay ZF906


Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!






"Prime95 copy an hour temperature performance is very good, overall about 50 °, the test room temperature is about 16 °, it really is the flagship standard." - translated from review

3dnews review of ROG Hero (might have posted already https://3dnews.ru/963158/page-2.html#%D0%9F%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%B8%D0%B7%D0%B2%D0%BE%D0%B4%D0%B8%D1%82%D0%B5%D0%BB%D1%8C%D0%BD%D0%BE%D1%81%D1%82%D1%8C)


----------



## outofmyheadyo

Decided to get the ROG X HERO instead of TAICHI only reason being it was available, and would of had to wait TAICHI for a week, price was the same.
The VRM heatsinks seem pretty solid, quite hefty pieces of metal, although they dont have that much surface area. Not sure if HERO has multiple VRM but I took some pictures. Heatsinks are mounted with screws not some cheap pins, so pressure seems to be good.


----------



## T-Datto

Asrock mobos was overheat vrm. So sad.
Extreme4, k6 and taichi have same problem.
What mobo of this price (190, 210 dolars) have more cold vrm?
I living in brazil. My city 38 celcius is normal all year.
I really dont kown what mobo i will take.


----------



## outofmyheadyo

If u live in a sauna, watercool the vrm or add a fan, cant fight physics


----------



## Solarity

Seems people milage varies. Looks like Gigabyte Gaming 7 has an awesome VRM that had earlier issues with the heatsink being tighten enough.


----------



## must4rdgas

Hi all

Thanks for this very informative thread, especially to AlphaC!

With my 8700K en route, I registered to ask about Z370 and memory. Particularly the G.Skill Trident Z 3200MHz CL14 and the Gigabyte Z370 Aorus Gaming 7, which I believe is still one of the best mobos to go for, based on research and reading most pages of this thread?

I can't find anything online about them being incompatible (or compatible). The RAM is unfortunately not on the motherboard's QVL, but the mobo is on the RAM's QVL...

Should I bite the bullet and go for it? What do you all think or advise? Should I not be fussed with CL14? Should I rather look at higher MHz RAM?

I'll be OCing a bit and gaming.

Thanks!


----------



## outofmyheadyo

At this point they shouldnt even sell mb-s that dont support the cl14 3200 tridentz


----------



## must4rdgas

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *outofmyheadyo*
> 
> At this point they shouldnt even sell mb-s that dont support the cl14 3200 tridentz


Agreed, and I can't see why a popular mobo like the Aorus Gaming 7 wouldn't. Just not a good feeling going into this when they're not in the QVL, but I'll give it a bash.


----------



## Solarity

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *must4rdgas*
> 
> Agreed, and I can't see why a popular mobo like the Aorus Gaming 7 wouldn't. Just not a good feeling going into this when they're not in the QVL, but I'll give it a bash.


Mine wasn't in the QVL officially, though the they used the same dims with a different color, heat spreader, and number or DIMMs that came in the box.

QVL: https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820232281
F4-3200C14Q2-64GVK
F4-3200C14=speed/cas
Q2=8xDIMMS ( I guess they only used half the set as there are only 4 DIMM slots)
-64=Total Memory in pacakge
GV=Ripjaws V heat spreader
K=black

Mine: https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?item=N82E16820232407
F4-3200C14D-16GTZKW
F4-3200C14=speed/cas
D=2xDIMMS
-16=Total Memory in package
GTZ=Trident Z heat spreader
KW=black and white

They do note they aren't able to test every possible DIMM on the market. might have been easier if they just tested the PN, instead of the item code of the kits. All the stupid color combos out there are a bit annoying.

I had no issues running this RAM in normal XMP profile1.


----------



## must4rdgas

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Solarity*
> 
> Mine wasn't in the QVL officially, though the they used the same dims with a different color, heat spreader, and number or DIMMs that came in the box.
> 
> QVL: https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820232281
> F4-3200C14Q2-64GVK
> F4-3200C14=speed/cas
> Q2=8xDIMMS ( I guess they only used half the set as there are only 4 DIMM slots)
> -64=Total Memory in pacakge
> GV=Ripjaws V heat spreader
> K=black
> 
> Mine: https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?item=N82E16820232407
> F4-3200C14D-16GTZKW
> F4-3200C14=speed/cas
> D=2xDIMMS
> -16=Total Memory in package
> GTZ=Trident Z heat spreader
> KW=black and white
> 
> They do note they aren't able to test every possible DIMM on the market. might have been easier if they just tested the PN, instead of the item code of the kits. All the stupid color combos out there are a bit annoying.
> 
> I had no issues running this RAM in normal XMP profile1.


Good to know. That makes sense.

Here's what I got - https://www.gskill.com/en/product/f4-3200c14d-16gtzr. Picked them up today, as well as the Gigabyte Aorus Gaming 7, Samsung 960 Pro 512GB PCIe SSD, and Cooler Master MasterAir 4 RGB.

Work first, setup later hopefully!


----------



## Solarity

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *must4rdgas*
> 
> Good to know. That makes sense.
> 
> Here's what I got - https://www.gskill.com/en/product/f4-3200c14d-16gtzr. Picked them up today, as well as the Gigabyte Aorus Gaming 7, Samsung 960 Pro 512GB PCIe SSD, and Cooler Master MasterAir 4 RGB.
> 
> Work first, setup later hopefully!


Looks good, I also forgot to mention while Gigabyte doesn't list the RAM in the QVL, G.Skill does list the RAM in their QVL


----------



## must4rdgas

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Solarity*
> 
> Looks good, I also forgot to mention while Gigabyte doesn't list the RAM in the QVL, G.Skill does list the RAM in their QVL


Indeed. Fingers crossed!

I'm sure a lot of people are after this combo (Aorus 7 + 3200MHz CL14), so I'll be sure to report back once I've fiddled with XMP and such.


----------



## HippoLOL

Can anyone here confirm this mono block works on the Z370 Gaming 7 without issues? I know EK did a "visual" confirmation, but hearing from someone that has used the Mono-block on their MB would be great.

https://www.ekwb.com/shop/ek-fb-ga-z270-z370-rgb-monoblock-nickel


----------



## Solarity

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *HippoLOL*
> 
> Can anyone here confirm this mono block works on the Z370 Gaming 7 without issues? I know EK did a "visual" confirmation, but hearing from someone that has used the Mono-block on their MB would be great.
> 
> https://www.ekwb.com/shop/ek-fb-ga-z270-z370-rgb-monoblock-nickel


I havent used it personally, but interestingly enough Gigabyte added the support for the monoblock to their website, after I bought the mb.

http://www.gigabyte.us/Motherboard/Z370-AORUS-Gaming-7-rev-10#kf


----------



## AlphaC

https://3dnews.ru/963964/page-2.html#%D0%A0%D0%B0%D0%B7%D0%B3%D0%BE%D0%BD%20%D0%B8%20%D1%81%D1%82%D0%B0%D0%B1%D0%B8%D0%BB%D1%8C%D0%BD%D0%BE%D1%81%D1%82%D1%8C
TUF Plus pushing 150ish watts in Prime95 @ 4.9GHz ~1.3V , using Noctua NH-D15 and Arctic MX-4 paste


Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!







TUF Pro Gaming using Onsemi 4C09 + doubled low side 4C06
https://www.ixbt.com/platform/asus-tuf-z370-pro-gaming-review.html

Asrock z370 Gaming K6 Temp _VRM 130 °C in 13 min [Prime95 v29.3] CPU package power up to 260 watts in Prime95._
(CPU cooler is closed loop all in one unit , unsure if delidded)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o5ZY-paP_2A

I'm skeptical as to the accuracy & calibration. K type thermocouples may have nonlinear results with an analog device such as a multimeter.
* There's many K6 results on hardwareluxx https://www.hardwareluxx.de/community/f139/intel-coffee-lake-s-sockel-1151-oc-ergebnis-thread-kein-quatschthread-1178256.html

----
Z370 K6 review at ixbt , using FDPC5030SG
https://www.ixbt.com/platform/asrock-fatal1ty-z370-gaming-k6-review.html

----

HKEPC's review of MSI Z370I Gaming Pro CARBON AC ITX board
(UBIQ M3816N DSM MOSFET)
https://www.hkepc.com/16195/%E6%8A%B5%E7%8E%A9_Z370_ITX_%E7%B4%B0%E6%9D%BF_MSI_Z370I_Gaming_Pro_CARBON_AC

----
Asrock Z370 Fatal1ty Professional
https://www.overclockers.ru/lab/89044/obzor-i-testirovanie-materinskoj-platy-asrock-fatal1ty-z370-professional-gaming-i7.html
twelve ISL6596 drivers , ON Semiconductor FDPC5030SG variant



_Despite the use of a liquid cooling system, in which the CPU power circuits (VRM) were left without any blowing (airflow), the temperature did not exceed 80 ° C (under AVX).
On the back side of the system board the temperature is higher, but subject to the conditions, it is within the reasonable range of 90 ° C._
Prime95 AVX was used for testing

(Sinopower variant at https://www.ixbt.com/platform/asrock-fatal1ty-z370-professional-gaming-i7-review.html)

----
MSI Z370 M5
https://www.ithome.com/html/digi/343873.htm (via https://www.chiphell.com/thread-1817815-1-1.html):

claims the MSI M5 is 8+4 power phases
"MSI Z370 GAMING M5 passed the test, two hours without any abnormal burning, the frequency of motionless." , or in proper English MSI Z370 Gaming M5 was able to sustain 2 hours of AIDA64 stress test at 5GHz without dropping clockspeed unlike a board with 4+3 phases (likely Gigabyte Ultra Gaming or something similar).

---

Biostar z370 GT6
with Sinopower SM4377 + SM4364A
https://www.ixbt.com/platform/biostar-racing-z370gt6-review.html

Gigabyte z370n-wifi ITX
https://www.tweaktown.com/reviews/8484/gigabyte-z370n-wifi-intel-z370-motherboard-review/index3.html
Quote:


> The Z370N WIFI overclocked our CPU to 4.9GHz and was able to maintain the overclock with AVX, but it required active airflow over the VRM area. If you use an AIO water cooler as we used, you need to have some active airflow around the VRM area. We did set both internal and external LLC to Turbo, VCore to 1.3v, set the multiplier to 49x, and set XMP to enable. That is all we did, and it worked as it should, without much vdroop.
> 
> Read more: https://www.tweaktown.com/reviews/8484/gigabyte-z370n-wifi-intel-z370-motherboard-review/index7.html


with *a 120mm fan on the VRM* and 4.9GHz 1.3V , 80 degrees Celsius in Handbrake

https://nl.hardware.info/reviews/7794/4/gigabyte-z370-aorus-gaming-3-gaming-k3-a-xp-sli-review-driemaal-betaalbaar-z370-stroomvoorziening-en-overklokfeatures
Gigabyte z370 K3 , Gaming 3 , XP SLI confirmed to use 4+3 configuration with 4c10n+4c06n.

Just putting more datapoints into the overall picture

===========
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Randallel*
> 
> I wondering if I should return my Aorus Gaming 5 or a Taichi. Should I be worried about the VRMs if I'm trying to OC to 5Ghz with the Gaming 5?


No for gaming but if they're priced similarly I'd buy the Taichi. For AVX encoding or similar uses you would have a lower overclock potential on the Gaming 5.

read https://www.tweaktown.com/guides/8482/intel-z370-motherboard-buyers-guide/index5.html


----------



## Randallel

I wondering if I should return my Aorus Gaming 5 or a Taichi. Should I be worried about the VRMs if I'm trying to OC to 5Ghz with the Gaming 5?


----------



## asdkj1740

https://www.techpowerup.com/240761/nzxt-updates-price-of-n7-z370-motherboard

Based on the overwhelmingly positive feedback from customers since the launch of the new N7 Z370 motherboard, today NZXT is announcing a change to the product and a price reduction from $299.99 to $249.99, both effective immediately.

"The feedback we received was, ..., the price is a bit too high.

Unlike competitive Z370 motherboard offerings, NZXT originally planned to bundle LED light strips and extension cables in the box. To be able to offer a lower price, these have been removed from the product.

"We are very confident in our quality. And to help allay the fears of the community, we are increasing our warranty from 3 to 4 years."

lmao


----------



## webhito

$300 for an ecs motherboard?
How about no.

Even at $250 it doesn't seem like a good deal to me either. Heck, not even $200.


----------



## Solarity

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *webhito*
> 
> $300 for an ecs motherboard?
> How about no.
> 
> Even at $250 it doesn't seem like a good deal to me either. Heck, not even $200.


People do pay a lot of money for cases, individually sleeved cables, and many other things. After seeing a lot of things, I would not be surprised about people buying a motherboard for the armored look.


----------



## webhito

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Solarity*
> 
> People do pay a lot of money for cases, individually sleeved cables, and many other things. After seeing a lot of things, I would not be surprised about people buying a motherboard for the armored look.


Most definitely. I mean, I like the looks, but ecs? Nope.


----------



## asdkj1740

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *webhito*
> 
> $300 for an ecs motherboard?
> How about no.
> 
> Even at $250 it doesn't seem like a good deal to me either. Heck, not even $200.


some accessories are cut, but warranty has been increased to 4 yrs from 3 yrs.
it is not just a simple price cut.

the ECS Z370 Lightsaber has very cheap components used, therefore i think nzxt cant say much about adding new features to its n7 above its original sample Lightsaber.
cant find any info about Lightsaber msrp though.


----------



## asdkj1740

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Solarity*
> 
> People do pay a lot of money for cases, individually sleeved cables, and many other things. After seeing a lot of things, I would not be surprised about people buying a motherboard for the armored look.


a set of expensive psu cables is selling around $100 usd.
the markup of expensive cases above budget cases is generally $100 usd too.

but this nzxt z370, as said before by others, is marking up more than $100.


----------



## webhito

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *asdkj1740*
> 
> some accessories are cut, but warranty has been increased to 4 yrs from 3 yrs.
> it is not just a simple price cut.
> 
> the ECS Z370 Lightsaber has very cheap components used, therefore i think nzxt cant say much about adding new features to its n7 above its original sample Lightsaber.
> cant find any info about Lightsaber msrp though.


My point exactly, ecs boards are pooh, Its most likely all bling and nothing really worth mentioning is under the hood.


----------



## asdkj1740

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *webhito*
> 
> My point exactly, ecs boards are pooh, Its most likely all bling and nothing really worth mentioning is under the hood.


at least the heatsinks are impressive, and lots of sp caps are used, these are good.


----------



## NerouN

Please tell me, is it worth buying the motherboard asrock z370 gaming under k6 processor i7 8700k?


----------



## NerouN

?


----------



## MBugaria

Hi guys

A small question from the theory of VRM.
*Doublers*

What is the sense in using doublers, in comparison with a simple doubling of the number of power stage components?
Apparently something important from the practical point of view, since the former is called "real doubling", and the second "fake doubling"

I read the theory a bit, but I did not find an answer

*Imax* - the same
*Ripple current* - the same
*Heating* is almost the same (because of the different frequency of the PWM signal per mosfet)
*The efficiency* is almost the same (because of the different frequency of the PWM signal per mosfet)
The only thing I can suggest is that, in case of using a doubler, it is possible to use less high-speed mosfets.

I did a simple table


Can someone clarify? Doublers, what's the point?


----------



## Sin0822

your switching frequency is not the same (so you lose efficiency and that leads to more heat), and you lose out on phase shedding capabilities if the PWM supports that type of thing through the doubler.

This is through doubling:


This is how the "fake" doubling looks:


----------



## AlphaC

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MBugaria*
> 
> Hi guys
> 
> A small question from the theory of VRM.
> *Doublers*
> 
> What is the sense in using doublers, in comparison with a simple doubling of the number of power stage components?
> Apparently something important from the practical point of view, since the former is called "real doubling", and the second "fake doubling"
> 
> I read the theory a bit, but I did not find an answer
> 
> *Imax* - the same
> *Ripple current* - the same
> *Heating* is almost the same (because of the different frequency of the PWM signal per mosfet)
> *The efficiency* is almost the same (because of the different frequency of the PWM signal per mosfet)
> The only thing I can suggest is that, in case of using a doubler, it is possible to use less high-speed mosfets.
> 
> I did a simple table
> 
> 
> Can someone clarify? Doublers, what's the point?


Your chart isn't accurate though.

Semi-offtopic


Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!



When you "fake double" the low side mosfets only halves on resistance since they are in parallel but turning on at the same time. With a _real_ doubler you effectively reduce the current load in half since it is turning on half the time, _which is twice as potent as halving the on state resistance_. If you have an on state resistance (aka RDS(on)) below 2 milliohms it wouldn't be a big deal (something like the Z370 ROG Hero doesn't worry me) but for something like 4 milliohms it makes a big difference.

Real doubling halves the switching frequency and prevents shoot through (overshoot of voltage / high + low side at same time). Also most "fake doubled" boards are only using one inductor for 2 sets of mosfets so you have more resistance & more heat concentration in one location. Often times the mosfets not only dissipate heat through the heatsink but through the board itself, since copper is much more thermally conductive than the thermal pad on top of it.

Basically interleaved (doubler) > dual driver mode (for shoot through protection) >> two mosfets on one phase.


----------



## T-Datto

Finally I finished building my pc.
I want to thank those who helped me choose asrock k6. It really is a fantastic mother board.
I'm running my 8600k i5 in 4.8ghz with 1.25 vcore. I do not need more than that.
Thank you all.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZtSugTqNXQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BNuUIPCXB4I


----------



## MBugaria

Sin0822, AlphaC thanks

Yes, the frequencies per mosfet differ from each other. After a real doubler, we already have (f/2)
I marked it in the picture

To be honest, I did not fully understand from your answers








But seems, something I still realized:

Because the efficiency of the mosfet falls with increasing frequency due to the increase in switching losses. There is some optimal frequency zone where the efficiency is maximum.

Then my statement that efficiency and heating for both cases is "almost the same" is not true, because in my example, the same frequency (f) is indicated from the PWM controller - as a starting point.

If, in this example, for the starting point to take an equal efficiency of the mosfets (equal switching frequency per mosfet), then for a variant with a simple doubling of the number of power components, I would have to reduce the frequency of the signal from the PWM controller.
And this, in turn, would negatively affect the ripple current.


----------



## Sergis

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/evga-z370-ftw-134-ks-e377-kr-motherboard,5352.html
This is new superior motherboard, don't you think?


----------



## navjack27

I hope that is sarcasm


----------



## AlphaC

ROG Formula review at hardwareluxx
https://www.hardwareluxx.de/index.p...ale-ausstattung-mit-oled-display.html?start=1

They claim Infineon BSG0812ND is used for some reason

I'm not sure if it is right since that is a 5 character long printed marking on the mosfet.

January 23, 2018 update:
Asrock Z370 Fatal1ty ITX http://forums.hardwarezone.com.sg/hardware-clinic-2/%5Breview%5D-asrock-z370-fatal1ty-gaming-itx-ac-5763404.html

January 24 update:
Tom's hardware review of Z370 Pro Carbon
155W power consumption = VRM temperature +30°C over ambient 
at 1.3V it was able to overclock to 4.848GHz
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/msi-z370-gaming-pro-carbon-ac-motherboard,5374-4.html


----------



## Randallel

So the Z370 Taichi has two variants?


----------



## AlphaC

Randallel said:


> So the Z370 Taichi has two variants?


yes, I noted that a while ago. Most people seem to get the Fairchild variant.

---------

Also Gigabyte Z370 UD3H mosfet shots

You can tell it's cut down since not only is the VRM heatsink using push pins, the capacitors are not black 10k hour ones, the PCB has a brownish tinge suggesting it is thinner.


http://quasarzone.co.kr/bbs/board.php?bo_table=qc_qsz&wr_id=130391


----------



## BelowAverageIQ

Randallel said:


> So the Z370 Taichi has two variants?


Alpha C thank you for all of your information. I do remember you mentioning there are two variants of the Taichi.

Which is better?

Is there a way of telling after the board is installed or by serial number?

Thank you again. Really appreciate it.

Cheers.


----------



## Randallel

I'm also curious. Someone said that the Fairchild is 2 percent better?


----------



## AlphaC

Randallel said:


> I'm also curious. Someone said that the Fairchild is 2 percent better?


That's for the initial look at the K6 / Extreme4 with 5 PWM phases and dual driver ISL6596 and V_GS=4.5V (gate source voltage) if I remember correctly (this new forum search is garbage).The Fairchild variant should be around 92% efficient if it were 10 phases and the Sinopower variant should be about 90% efficient if 10 phases. However, all bets are off if the BIOs is setup such that the switching time caters to the slower mosfet. Due to the drivers used, the minimum switch time is increased. In that case the Sinopower and Fairchild mosfets should be relatively the same , since the Sinopowers have lower RDS(on). With V_GS= 10V it's relatively the same. Total loss per Dual-N mosfet should be about 1.72W in either case assuming approximately 180W CPU power. 

The reason why I say that Fairchild is a better variant due to the datasheets stating maximums (at V_GS=10V):
Fairchild FDPC5030SG : has a rise time of 2ns typical and 10ns maximum, 2ns typical and 10ns max fall time. RDS(on) for low side fet is 2.4 milliohms (http://www.onsemi.com/pub/Collateral/FDPC5030SG-D.pdf)
Sinopower SM7341EH : has a rise time of 9.6 ns "typical" and fall time of 19ns "typical". RDS(on) for the low side fet is 1.2 milliohms (http://www.sinopowersemi.com/temp/SM7341EHKP_datasheet.pdf)

ISL6596 UGATE Rise / Fall Time = 8ns (https://www.intersil.com/content/dam/intersil/documents/isl6/isl6596.pdf)

In the case of the Taichi it should be a non issue , really. With 10 PWM signals interleaved (5 phase PWM with 10 ISL6596 drivers = 10 PWM phases) the switching time is going to be even less of a factor even if there's a 2% difference in efficiency because the Sinopowers have less thermal resistance when a heatsink is applied.

For those boards in the real midrange (as in features not price) such as the STRIX Z370-F/Z370-E , Z370-A , Gigabyte Z370 Gaming 5, MSI Z370 Gaming M5 , MSI Z370 Pro Carbon (two part heatsink over the CPU VRM with top and bottom half is a terrible design but mosfets are alright) they're basically all using 4 PWM phases. Supposedly the Asus ones are using slower Realtek dual drivers.

In the lower midrange / entry boards such as Gigabyte Z370-UD3H (push pin heatsinks and cheapened PCB), MSI Z370 SLI PLUS, etc. They're also using 4 PWM phases.

As far as identifying the variant of the Z370 Taichi, look towards the memory VRM section next to the XMP_ON1 switch. (see the image at https://www.tweaktown.com/reviews/8381/asrock-z370-taichi-motherboard-review/index3.html) The two mosfets near the memory slots should both either have an F for Fairchild or stylized S for Sinopower. 

"Too long ,didn't read": Don't worry that much about it.

-----------------
Also boards that aren't that great can have a fan over the VRM as a lame workaround. If you're short on money and can afford the noise that's an option. Would I recommend them? Absolutely not, because any board that is decent _will also perform better with a fan_ over the VRM and if you aren't in a temperature controlled environment the VRM temperature can be more than 10°C higher. 

Gigabyte Z370 XP SLI, 71°C when encoding with [email protected] (on a H110i on auto and 120mm fan over VRM): https://www.tweaktown.com/reviews/8...li-intel-z370-motherboard-review/index10.html

Gigabyte Z370N WIFI , 81°C when encoding with [email protected] (on a H110i on auto and 120mm fan over VRM): https://www.tweaktown.com/reviews/8...fi-intel-z370-motherboard-review/index10.html

-------------------
Asrock Z370 Pro4 review with SM4337+SM4336
http://quasarzone.co.kr/bbs/board.php?bo_table=qc_qsz&wr_id=131990

-------------------
For better technical understanding , I'd suggest watching the video or downloading the powerpoint + transcript:
https://training.ti.com/buck-regulator-architectures-multi-phase-buck-regulators?cu=5177


----------



## BelowAverageIQ

AlphaC,

Another awesome and detailed reply. Thank you. I actually did read it. How could I not, knowing you went to so much effort.

Why would Asrock change or use two different types? Would it simply be availability?

Going to have a look at my board and will let you know.

P.S. I am really enjoying the stability of the Taichi over the MSI Gaming M5. Better power delivery, rock solid voltages supplied at level 1 and LOWER volts needed for CPU and memory both at stock and overclocked.

Cheers.

*edit* Just checked. My board has the Sinopower SM7341EH variant.


----------



## AlphaC

Was looking for newer Specviewperf12 results. Found this review



http://www.hardwarezone.com.sg/revi...temperature-power-consumption-overclocking-31


----------



## afewyards

*Asus Z370-g vs EVGA Micro*

Which one is better. I guess the EVGA as it has one more phase...


----------



## Tasm

So...i am going Intel again. Need help choosing a mobo.

I leaning towards Asrock Z370 Extreme 4. But Asus Z370 Prime A is also on my mind.

What do you guys think? Whats the best mid-range mobo out there?

Thanks in advance!


----------



## Solarity

Tasm said:


> So...i am going Intel again. Need help choosing a mobo.
> 
> I leaning towards Asrock Z370 Extreme 4. But Asus Z370 Prime A is also on my mind.
> 
> What do you guys think? Whats the best mid-range mobo out there?
> 
> Thanks in advance!


What exactly are you going to be doing and want? What CPU, cooler, and how much do you want to push it, if you are doing overclocking? Also where are you located, as prices can vary depending on your location. Sometimes you can even get a better motherboard for less, depending on combo sales w/ a CPU.

According to AlphaC's chart they are both rated top of the mid range:
http://www.overclock.net/photopost/data/1673343/4/48/48550d91_z370lineup-WIP.png

On Newegg the Asrock ($164) is $5 cheaper than the Asus ($169) both w/ rebates. They both get a $10 discount for 8600k/8700k CPU combo. 

The Gigabyte Gaming 5, which is rated similar on his chart is $149 after rebate and you can get a $30 discount, if pared with a 8600k/8700k CPU combo. This is a $35-40 savings over the Asrock and Asus. I think it also has better audio than the other boards, wifi, and the most options for RGB. 

Though in all honesty for about $21 more assuming more I would just go with the Gigabyte Gaming 7. It is a decent deal with the discount on the motherboard, $20 MIR, and $30 Combo. Is the best board out of all of these:

All w/ 8600K combo and after rebates:
$429 - Gigabyte Gaming 7
$459 - Asrock Taichi
$408 - Asus Prime-A
$404 - Asrock Extreme4
$379 - Gigabyte Gaming 5

People usually waffle between Taichi and Gaming 7, though sometimes lean towards Taichi as it is usually slightly cheaper. Though the Gaming 7 is $30 less in this comparison and is a much better deal at this point. I think this is the best price I have seen the Gaming 7 at: https://www.newegg.com/Product/ComboBundleDetails.aspx?ItemList=Combo.3728672

If the Gaming 7 is to much for you, then I would look at feature set and price. Though if you are really wanting to OC the memory and board and push it hard, then I would advise the Taichi or Gaming 7. I do like Asus though the ROG has gone to their head, they can be similar in terms of quality and feature set to many other boards, though cost a lot more and see little discounts from what I have seen.


----------



## aratras

hi there! 
I have a doubt, Wich mother to buy. Asus Maximus X Hero o Aorus Gaming 7 or 5?
Im not planning to OC for now.

I have i7 8700k, 1070, 16gb (in a future will be 32GB).
I use my pc for photo and video editing. ANd also for games.


----------



## Vario

Is it true that looking at the two mosfets by the ATX 24Pin power can determine if the Z370 Taichi is a Sinopower or Fairchild VRM board? I seem to have Sinopower SM7341EH0T690 at that location. Does that mean under the VRM heatsink I have Sinopower? I have a pretty good overclock regardless with 4.8 GHz, 4.7 AVX, 4.5 Cache, all C states, typical load voltage ranging between 1.168 to 1.184 to 1.20V max, runs cool and stable. It doesn't really matter much to me as I am 100% content with the peformance of this system, I am just curious.


----------



## AlphaC

afewyards said:


> Which one is better. I guess the EVGA as it has one more phase...


EVGA one is better because it uses 8 drivers. Each powerstage has its own driver and is rated 35A. The absolute maximum rating on Z370-G STRIX's SiRa12dp low side mosfet is 25A at room temperature and it has 4 PWM phases without interleaving. The 8 mosfets appear to only be driven by 4 phases and 4 Realtek dual drivers.



Tasm said:


> So...i am going Intel again. Need help choosing a mobo.
> 
> I leaning towards Asrock Z370 Extreme 4. But Asus Z370 Prime A is also on my mind.
> 
> What do you guys think? Whats the best mid-range mobo out there?
> 
> Thanks in advance!


PCGH felt the Z370 Extreme4 was the best mainstream board and Gigabyte's Gaming 7 was rated their top high end board.



Vario said:


> Is it true that looking at the two mosfets by the ATX 24Pin power can determine if the Z370 Taichi is a Sinopower or Fairchild VRM board? I seem to have Sinopower SM7341EH0T690 at that location. Does that mean under the VRM heatsink I have Sinopower? I have a pretty good overclock regardless with 4.8 GHz, 4.7 AVX, 4.5 Cache, all C states, typical load voltage ranging between 1.168 to 1.184 to 1.20V max, runs cool and stable. It doesn't really matter much to me as I am 100% content with the peformance of this system, I am just curious.


Yes , look at the area next the memory at the XMP switch area. If you take a picture of that area I could confirm it for you.
Also I would monitor the VRM temperatures. Stay below 85°C near the capacitors (round black can looking things) and you should be golden. VRM temperature reported is typically at the mosfet. By Arrhenius model , every 10°C drop is double the lifespan so with the capacitors rated at 105°C that's four times the 12K hour rating, which is 48K hours. Even running 24/7 with 85°C temperatures, expected lifetime should be over 5 years.

----------------------------------

MSI M5 results with different case airflows:


> Option number 1. The active fan operation (on blowing) installed on the rear panel and the lower fan (for blowing) installed on the front panel. The correct option.
> Option number 2. The active operation of the blower (on the blower) installed on the rear panel and the lower fan (for blowing) installed on the front panel. The fan of the CPU cooler directed the air towards the rear wall.
> Option number 3. The active operation of the blower (on the blower) installed on the rear panel and the lower fan (for blowing) installed on the front panel. The fan of the CPU cooler directed the air towards the front wall.


Test setup was in a Thermaltake Core X31 case, i7-8700K, Thermaltake Frio Silent 12
Prime 29.3 (AVX) for 30 minutes , Witcher 3
* case fans - ~ 950 rpm (50%); fan CPU cooler - ~ 1400 rpm (100%); fans of the video card - ~ 1330 rpm (50%)

in all 3 situations it's around 80-82°C , compared to an ambient around 24°C
https://3dnews.ru/964587/page-2.html


-------------

Gigabyte Gaming 5 with Cyrorig R1
(Testing done with LINX , LINPACK AVX)


> The VRM sensor on the board is working properly. I managed to get a figure of 76 ° C, whereas it showed a temperature increase of up to 80 ° C, that is, its readings can be completely trusted. Due to the design features of the radiator, it is difficult to say what its true temperature was, the top overhead part did not warm up more than 43 ° C. Consumption was within the limits of 47-234 watts (without taking into account the splash caused by the activity of background processes in Windows). The figures are quite comparable to those already obtained on similar competing boards.


https://www.overclockers.ua/motherboard/gigabyte-z370-aorus-gaming-5/all/


----------



## Shaon

Is 1.15v more than average for a mild overclocking like 4.5ghz for a 8700k? What about the VRM temp?

BTW, using a Aorus z370 gaming 5 motherboard and Cryorig H7 lumi air cooler.


----------



## AlphaC

Slightly offtopic:


Spoiler



4.5GHz is barely an overclock though. A i7-8700 with MCE on likely hits 4.6GHz. (see http://quasarzone.co.kr/bbs/board.php?bo_table=qc_qsz&wr_id=113469 for MCE results , http://quasarzone.co.kr/bbs/board.php?bo_table=qc_qsz&wr_id=102002&page=13 for CPU binning Cinebench non-AVX stable)

Stock i7-8700K is 4.3GHz all core and 4.7GHz with MCE on.

With your board I would try for 4.7GHz+ since you have a 1600RPM fan on it (Cryorig H7 fan) and a fan you labeled VRM fan with ~2000RPM. That's rather substantial airflow.

Should be able to get 4.8GHz < 1.3V with a decent chip.

Your CPU cooler is capable of around 150-160W of heat so try to plan around that.


----------



## Shaon

AlphaC said:


> Slightly offtopic:
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> 4.5GHz is barely an overclock though. A i7-8700 with MCE on likely hits 4.6GHz. (see http://quasarzone.co.kr/bbs/board.php?bo_table=qc_qsz&wr_id=113469 for MCE results , http://quasarzone.co.kr/bbs/board.php?bo_table=qc_qsz&wr_id=102002&page=13 for CPU binning Cinebench non-AVX stable)
> 
> Stock i7-8700K is 4.3GHz all core and 4.7GHz with MCE on.
> 
> With your board I would try for 4.7GHz+ since you have a 1600RPM fan on it (Cryorig H7 fan) and a fan you labeled VRM fan with ~2000RPM. That's rather substantial airflow.
> 
> Should be able to get 4.8GHz < 1.3V with a decent chip.
> 
> Your CPU cooler is capable of around 150-160W of heat so try to plan around that.



Thanks for the advice. Actually I don't want to OC right now. The vcore was jumping all around (0.60v - 1.26v for default 4.3Ghz) with all auto so decided to set frequency and vcore manually (Also LLC to high from auto). I want to know whether this chip is taking more voltage than average chips to run at 4.5ghz or not?

BTW, that "VRM fan" is a 90mm fan which I put behind the mobo which can ramp up to 2800rpm. Before this fan the vrm temp was 50°C during stress test


----------



## Captcha

Hello

I plan to do a mATX build. It's my first PC build, liquid cooled i7-8700k and 1080ti. I'm struggling to find out which board I should buy. I like the look of the Evga z370 micro atx. I think this would match the build theme very well. But I don't wan't a board that looks just good. Because it's also the most expensive of all z370 matx boards.

I need in general the PC for my work (Image and video editing, 3D & Rendering Software) and also for gaming the newest games. I'm kinda interested in overclocking too, but that's something I have to learn more about. I'm asking also because I can't find any reviews of that motherboard. And I'm to new and inexperienced in building a pc to understand all the specs. 

I appreciate any help, thanks!


----------



## Captcha

double post. -_-


----------



## Solarity

Captcha said:


> Hello
> 
> I plan to do a mATX build. It's my first PC build, liquid cooled i7-8700k and 1080ti. I'm struggling to find out which board I should buy. I like the look of the Evga z370 micro atx. I think this would match the build theme very well. But I don't wan't a board that looks just good. Because it's also the most expensive of all z370 matx boards.
> 
> I need in general the PC for my work (Image and video editing, 3D & Rendering Software) and also for gaming the newest games. I'm kinda interested in overclocking too, but that's something I have to learn more about. I'm asking also because I can't find any reviews of that motherboard. And I'm to new and inexperienced in building a pc to understand all the specs.
> 
> I appreciate any help, thanks!


You picked the right CPU for your use, I only went with the 8600k as I only game on my machine. 

Here is a list of motherboard rankings that AlphaC created, based of the VRM quality and overclockability:http://www.overclock.net/photopost/data/1673343/4/48/48550d91_z370lineup-WIP.png

I do like how EVGA has their headers set to 90 degrees, though I would look for a higher end board. You only get two DIMM slots, so if memory prices ever drops, you won't be able to add additional RAM w/o replacing the existing ones you own. I don't do much editing, but I am guessing RAM is helpful. The two most recommended boards here are the Taichi and the Gaming 7. The ASUS ROG tend to be pricey for what you get. If you live in the US, you can get a great deal on a Gaming 7 + 8700K. They have the motherboard discounted, they have a $30 combo deal for the CPU/Mobo, and there is also a $20 MIR for the MB as well. The Gaming 7 also has the best RGB setup, if you are into it like I am. Though if you don't like RGB, you can keep them disabled. The Gaming 7 is also rated on a higher tier in AlphaC's list.


----------



## mouacyk

Captcha said:


> Hello
> 
> I plan to do a mATX build. It's my first PC build, liquid cooled i7-8700k and 1080ti. I'm struggling to find out which board I should buy. I like the look of the Evga z370 micro atx. I think this would match the build theme very well. But I don't wan't a board that looks just good. Because it's also the most expensive of all z370 matx boards.
> 
> I need in general the PC for my work (Image and video editing, 3D & Rendering Software) and also for gaming the newest games. I'm kinda interested in overclocking too, but that's something I have to learn more about. I'm asking also because I can't find any reviews of that motherboard. And I'm to new and inexperienced in building a pc to understand all the specs.
> 
> I appreciate any help, thanks!


So far, the evga micro board has been working great for me in my FT03 tower case. I modded my case to allow a 120mm fan to blow over the VRM/RAM area and it keeps the VRM's at 52C in the most intense AVX2 burn test at 5GHz for 15 minutes. In gaming and code compiling usage, the VRM reports being in the low 30's. I'd say the increased surface area of the heat sinks are definitely doing something, because this matches temperatures I achieved on a VRM waterblock for my Z97 motherboard under similar stress. I have not seen any power throttling, because in the AVX2 test my clocks were at a constant 5GHz. The VRM capability is identified to be equal to others from Asus and Gigabyte at the upper mid-range. It seems like this board is designed with overclocking in mind, first and foremost, hence the great heat sink and extra power connectors.

A minor issue I have is I can't clock the ring above 47x, because it doesn't stick. Somehow, the BIOS must be forcing a -3 offset to the core ratio or something. Also, the BIOS seems to be lacking some fine-tuning options, like LLC levels and RTL/IO tweaking. There are no onboard video connectors. DDR4 comes in 16GB modules now, so I'm not concerned about capacity expansion.

Overall, it was quite easy to set up XMP for my RAM and go for 5GHz straight away. I was able to push my RAM to 4200C19-1T for gaming and normal usage as well. Haven't run the 4200 oc through a thorough memory test yet though. It's a solid overclocker's board. You lose a few traces here and there, but it's like trimming the fat, so you're more fit for that single purpose.

In the near future, I look to stabilizing 5.1-5.2GHz and 4000+ RAM on it. Preliminary testing showed them to be gaming and bench stable.


----------



## BelowAverageIQ

https://www.tweaktown.com/reviews/8502/asrock-fatal1ty-z370-professional-gaming-i7-intel/index3.html

Tweakdown review including VRMS etc for the Asrock Fatality Pro Gaming i7


----------



## asdkj1740

BelowAverageIQ said:


> https://www.tweaktown.com/reviews/8502/asrock-fatal1ty-z370-professional-gaming-i7-intel/index3.html
> 
> Tweakdown review including VRMS etc for the Asrock Fatality Pro Gaming i7


so the old z370 taichi review should be wrong about the vrm design?
it should be 8+4 (from 4+2 pwn signals) instead of 10+2 (from 5+1 pwm signals)?
there are 4 "PQGT7XX" markings showing these four phases should be for igpu. 
https://www.tweaktown.com/reviews/8381/asrock-z370-taichi-motherboard-review/index3.html


----------



## greg1184

Just ordered the Aorus gaming 7 since its on sale for 219 on newegg.

I also found this gem: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Intel-BX80...e=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649

I was going to go i5 8600 until I saw that sale. Makes the price difference much less.


----------



## kd5151

greg1184 said:


> Just ordered the Aorus gaming 7 since its on sale for 219 on newegg.
> 
> I also found this gem: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Intel-BX80...e=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649
> 
> I was going to go i5 8600 until I saw that sale. Makes the price difference much less.


 monoprice and refurb4less had it for the same price. lowest thus far online!


----------



## KJZ87

Yep I bought an 8700k from there as well and used an ebay coupon.

Still not sure what motherboard to go with. The mid-range ASRock Z370s look to be the most dependable from the reviews I have read. Also look less "gamey" which is a plus for me. But only the Taichi has a DP Port (and not too big on the grey gears on the board), and is a little too expensive for a motherboard imo. With having to RMA 2 GPUs within 2 years, having a backup DP Port in-case my current GPU dies sounds like a good idea to me.

My question: should I be concerned with VRM temps of some MBs, with my PC Build (excluding current CPU and MB), when choosing a z370 motherboard? For Gaming purposes.

Case: Corsair 570x
Cooler: Dark Rock Pro 3
Memory: 2 sets of Black Corsair LPX 3000 Mhz
GPU: Aorus 1080 Ti Xtreme
Nvme M.2 SSD: Samsung 960 EV0 512 GB
SSD: 850 EVO 250 GB
HDD: WD 1 TB
And one Black, Industrial Noctua Fan as the Exhaust Fan

Positive airflow as the dust builds up on mesh panels and away from my pc components. I had no need to clear any dust inside the case. Thanks.


----------



## AlphaC

asdkj1740 said:


> so the old z370 taichi review should be wrong about the vrm design?
> it should be 8+4 (from 4+2 pwn signals) instead of 10+2 (from 5+1 pwm signals)?
> there are 4 "PQGT7XX" markings showing these four phases should be for igpu.
> https://www.tweaktown.com/reviews/8381/asrock-z370-taichi-motherboard-review/index3.html


First two seem to be for IO/SA so those may be originally designated as for CPU. 

We'll have to ask Steven ( Sin0822 ) about it. It's interesting though, since the K6 (different PCB) doesn't have the GT markings. On that board the IO+SA use different mosfets.

https://www.ixbt.com/platform/asrock-fatal1ty-z370-gaming-k6-review.html

(see attached pictures)

If it's 8+4 for the Asrock Taichi + K6 , then the remaining advantage is switch times and not so much for current limit.

-----------------



KJZ87 said:


> Yep I bought an 8700k from there as well and used an ebay coupon.
> 
> Still not sure what motherboard to go with. The mid-range ASRock Z370s look to be the most dependable from the reviews I have read. Also look less "gamey" which is a plus for me. But only the Taichi has a DP Port (and not too big on the grey gears on the board), and is a little too expensive for a motherboard imo. With having to RMA 2 GPUs within 2 years, having a backup DP Port in-case my current GPU dies sounds like a good idea to me.
> 
> My question: should I be concerned with VRM temps of some MBs, with my PC Build (excluding current CPU and MB), when choosing a z370 motherboard? For Gaming purposes.
> 
> Case: Corsair 570x
> Cooler: Dark Rock Pro 3
> Memory: 2 sets of Black Corsair LPX 3000 Mhz
> GPU: Aorus 1080 Ti Xtreme
> Nvme M.2 SSD: Samsung 960 EV0 512 GB
> SSD: 850 EVO 250 GB
> HDD: WD 1 TB
> And one Black, Industrial Noctua Fan as the Exhaust Fan
> 
> Positive airflow as the dust builds up on mesh panels and away from my pc components. I had no need to clear any dust inside the case. Thanks.


Anything truly midrange ought to be fine which includes:
Asrock K6 / Extreme4 
Asus Z370-A 
EVGA FTW , Micro
Gigabyte Gaming 5 (provided the heatsink has good contact) 
MSI Gaming M5 / Pro Carbon (provided the heatsink has good contact) 
MSI SLI PLUS possibly as well


----------



## yahfz

I've got an 8700k and 3466MHz C16, i can choose between these boards, which one do you guys recommend? 

Taichi
X Hero
Gaming 7 

Also, is it worth paying the extra for the X Hero/Gaming 7? Also, which board has the best onboard audio? Thanks.


----------



## Milamber

I'd have to say MSI Gaming Pro Carbon for sound quality. 

Audio Boost 4 with amplifier and golden audio jacks for better performance. 

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk


----------



## Randallel

yahfz said:


> I've got an 8700k and 3466MHz C16, i can choose between these boards, which one do you guys recommend?
> 
> Taichi
> X Hero
> Gaming 7
> 
> Also, is it worth paying the extra for the X Hero/Gaming 7? Also, which board has the best onboard audio? Thanks.


The Gaming 7 has the best VRM and on board audio. I almost bought it, but couldn't get pass the tacky design and horrible software/bios. I've heard there are audio issues with the board from the Gigabyte forum.


----------



## Milamber

Not familiar with Gigabyte boards.

Does it use a different codec and is there an amplifier like the MSI board? 

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk


----------



## Solarity

Tasm said:


> So...i am going Intel again. Need help choosing a mobo.
> 
> I leaning towards Asrock Z370 Extreme 4. But Asus Z370 Prime A is also on my mind.
> 
> What do you guys think? Whats the best mid-range mobo out there?
> 
> Thanks in advance!





Randallel said:


> The Gaming 7 has the best VRM and on board audio. I almost bought it, but couldn't get pass the tacky design and horrible software/bios. I've heard there are audio issues with the board from the Gigabyte forum.


Only problem with Gigabyte's Gaming 7, is the free software they offer with App Center. Though most motherboard manufacture's have crappy software. I do like the Gigabyte UEFI (BIOS) and have no complaints with it right now. Though Gigabyte's Fusion software is buggy and likes to use a lot of CPU. I just set the RGB how I like it then kill the process. Though they are coming out with something noon soon. Regarding the sound, it got excellent marks for sound and does have an amp as well as Wima and Nichicon gold capacitors. 



> 121dB SNR AMP-UP Audio with ALC1220 & High-End ESS SABRE 9018 DAC with WIMA audio capacitors


source:https://www.gigabyte.com/Motherboard/Z370-AORUS-Gaming-7-rev-10#kf

I personally switched from USB Wireless headset to analog headset, so I could take advantage of a better headset and the on board sound. Plus I don't get interference with other wireless signals that made me drop my sound every now and then.

The Gaming 7 on paper a better motherboard than the Taichi or Asus ROG X Hero. The ROG Hero is on par with the Taichi, but the Taichi is usually a much better deal as the ROG Hero is normally overpriced, as it has the letters: R...O...G on it. Gigabyte is trying to make their own ROG brand with the AORUS and pretty marketing, though luckily it isn't popular yet making it a better deal as well. The Aorus forums are full of spam bots lol. Also the Gaming 7 doesn't have wifi, though that isn't hard to remediate with a USB 3.0 antenna adapter. 

If the Gaming 7 is close or less than the Taichi, go with the Gaming 7. I can't see the ROG Hero being cheaper anywhere, so I think it is over priced from a branding perspective. If you like RGB a lot the Gaming 7 is the best hands down. If you don't like RGB, then disable the the LEDs 

As other have said, the Gaming 7 has one of the best VRMs. It has about $55 in mosfet:



> This board isn't all about flash, though. To supply the necessary juice to Coffee Lake CPUs, Gigabyte taps a 10-phase (8+2) power design incorporating power stages and PWM control circuitry from Intersil, an unusual choice in a high-end space that's been dominated by International Rectifier's PowIRStages of late. Gigabyte taps ten of Intersil's ISL99227B Smart Power Stage modules for conversion duty, and they're controlled by the company's ISL69138 controller chip.
> 
> These modules integrate high-side, low-side, and driver circuitry into one package, and they are quite costly: $5.50 each at Intersil's suggested prices. Even if Gigabyte is scoring those power stages in volume, they would still seem to make up a significant part of the Gaming 7's bill of materials. Each unit is rated to deliver 60A, so the VRM array on this board seems more than ready to power any typical enthusiast's overclock.


source: https://techreport.com/review/32669/gigabyte-z370-aorus-gaming-7-motherboard-reviewed

I love the motherboard, though I will be happy to critique their crappy software. The main functions of the board work great and software can always be patched and replaced. You can't say the same for components soldered onto the motherboard.


----------



## yahfz

Solarity said:


> Only problem with Gigabyte's Gaming 7, is the free software they offer with App Center. Though most motherboard manufacture's have crappy software. I do like the Gigabyte UEFI (BIOS) and have no complaints with it right now. Though Gigabyte's Fusion software is buggy and likes to use a lot of CPU. I just set the RGB how I like it then kill the process. Though they are coming out with something noon soon. Regarding the sound, it got excellent marks for sound and does have an amp as well as Wima and Nichicon gold capacitors.


But that stuff can be unninstalled once you choose the leds you want right? Also the Gaming 7 has no Bluetooth, which is good to have sometimes. I think im gonna get the Gaming 7 then.


----------



## greg1184

I am seeing the gaming 7 for 219. Same price as the Taichi and only 20 more than the gaming 5. Needless to say I got the gaming 7.


----------



## must4rdgas

must4rdgas said:


> Quote:Originally Posted by *Solarity*
> 
> Looks good, I also forgot to mention while Gigabyte doesn't list the RAM in the QVL, G.Skill does list the RAM in their QVL
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Indeed. Fingers crossed!
> 
> I'm sure a lot of people are after this combo (Aorus 7 + 3200MHz CL14), so I'll be sure to report back once I've fiddled with XMP and such.


Just to confirm, all runing smooth on the Aorus 7 with G.Skill TridentZ RGB 3200MHz CL14.


----------



## GeneO

Randallel said:


> The Gaming 7 has the best VRM and on board audio. I almost bought it, but couldn't get pass the tacky design and horrible software/bios. I've heard there are audio issues with the board from the Gigabyte forum.


Not familiar with the Gigabyte boards either but how can it have the best on-board audio when there are audio issues?


----------



## LunaTiC123

Just ordered the asus z370-a prime and a 8700k since there's a promo in EU atm where you can get 50 euros back if you get a i7 8700k with an asus mobo(promo lasts until feb 25), also thank you guys for this thread and everyone with helpful info especially AlphaC  

now time to find a cheap(haha......) 16gb ddr4 kit on ebay since there's no way I'm spending 200 euros on a damn 16gb ddr4 kit...


----------



## SEALBoy

Why does my Taichi use so much power?

I recently switched from an Aorus Gaming 5 to a Asrock Taichi for my 8700K because the VRM on my Gaming 5 was getting too hot when trying to reach 5GHz @ 1.335Vcore, Turbo LLC (highest LLC setting).

On my Taichi, I set 5GHz @ 1.32Vcore, Level 1 LLC (highest LLC setting), and ran Prime95 non-AVX.

While my VRM temps are fine now (mid 70Cs), my CPU power and temp is WAY higher than it was on the Gaming 5. I was getting mid-60's temps on the Gaming 5 and power usage around 160-170W. On the Taichi I am getting temps in the high 70's with power usage at 200W!!! On an actual Vcore of 1.328V, lower than what I was using on my Gaming 5.

What is going on? How can the Taichi be using 25% more power at the same Vcore and frequency settings?


----------



## AlphaC

Depends on the switching frequency and other settings such as long duration power limit rather than just voltage.

It also may be your uncore frequency (cache ratio) was slower on the Gigabyte board as well.

Did you do tests with a score (LINX maybe)? Prime doesn't give you a score so it doesn't show whether the extra power does more work.

Also are you on the newest BIOS?


----------

Also Roman's result for Maximus X Hero


----------



## SEALBoy

AlphaC said:


> Depends on the switching frequency and other settings such as long duration power limit rather than just voltage.
> 
> It also may be your uncore frequency (cache ratio) was slower on the Gigabyte board as well.
> 
> Did you do tests with a score (LINX maybe)? Prime doesn't give you a score so it doesn't show whether the extra power does more work.
> 
> Also are you on the newest BIOS?


I didn't touch the power limit on either board but I don't see how that might be the problem. In neither cases was the CPU throttling due to exceeding the power limit.

Uncore was set to 44 on both.

No tests with LINX unfortunately, I don't access to the Gaming 5 anymore.

Running the latest BIOS, I flashed it when I first turned the board on.


----------



## Randallel

GeneO said:


> Not familiar with the Gigabyte boards either but how can it have the best on-board audio when there are audio issues?


Good specs, but apparently bad drivers.


----------



## Solarity

yahfz said:


> But that stuff can be unninstalled once you choose the leds you want right? Also the Gaming 7 has no Bluetooth, which is good to have sometimes. I think im gonna get the Gaming 7 then.


Wifi and Bluetooth are really not used all that much in desktops. Most people have it plugged in directly to a switch. They do sell wifi/bluetooth combo USB3.0 adapters that look like an antenna and some that are more compact, though might have limited range due to small antenna. I see no reason why you couldn't add a M.2 bluetooth/wifi adapter to the system: https://www.amazon.com/Wireless-Int...&qid=1518014008&sr=1-3&keywords=m.2+bluetooth



must4rdgas said:


> Just to confirm, all runing smooth on the Aorus 7 with G.Skill TridentZ RGB 3200MHz CL14.


All is well, no complaints and everything is rock solid stable. 



GeneO said:


> Not familiar with the Gigabyte boards either but how can it have the best on-board audio when there are audio issues?


The sound quality is great, I switched from Corsair H2100 wireless headset to a Sennheiser pc37x to take advantage of the on board sound. I have been liking it a lot. To be honest I am surprised I didn't see the thread about sound issues on this MB on GB's website. Though it seems like people are having issues with drivers and apps. I just use the Windows default installed driver, unless I find I have a problem. As mentioned before I am not a fan of all the apps that Gigabyte has. I am even considering ditching all their apps. I only install drivers when they are bundled with a tool that I need/want. i.e. keyboard, mouse, and video card.


----------



## aliquiswe

yahfz said:


> I've got an 8700k and 3466MHz C16, i can choose between these boards, which one do you guys recommend?
> 
> Taichi
> X Hero
> Gaming 7
> 
> Also, is it worth paying the extra for the X Hero/Gaming 7? Also, which board has the best onboard audio? Thanks.


I wouldn't recommend the ASUS board. At-least not for RAM compatibility.

One guy on the ASUS forum have the Hero and problem with that 3466 Corsair RAM: https://rog.asus.com/forum/showthread.php?99237-CMR32GX4M4C3466C16-XMP-errors-on-X-HERO
I have the Z370-F Strix and even tried another i7 8700K and the latest 0607 BIOS and this is the results:
https://pasteboard.co/H7maCV7.jpg

All the tests except block move I've never had any problem with but anyway here's that using my old processor and MSI Z370 Gaming M5 with 1.20 BIOS instead which I eventually tried:
https://pasteboard.co/H7maWka.jpg

Looks better? So here's only test 6:
https://pasteboard.co/H7mb3Ip.jpg

Both are simply enabling XMP profile.

If I choose sequential CPU / core usage in memtest86 though it seem to crash after 4 seconds on the MSI board. At-least I get no more updates on screen. With parallell the stuff above is the result.
Whichever I use on the ASUS Z370-F Strix I get memory errors all the time and blue screens in Windows about once a day. I can't commend on whatever the MSI board would do that too or not since I haven't used it really.

My memory kit is on the ASUS QVL but it's not on the MSI QVL. But both have other Corsair 3466 kits listed. Mine is the CMR16GX4M2C3466C16.

The RGB solution is much tamer on the Gaming M5 than the F Strix and for me it also cost 200 SEK more but with Assassin´s Creed Origins. The Pro Carbon AC at once time I could had bought at a price inbetween and would had gotten WiFi and bluetooth plus it have more color. The audio quality is worse on the Pro Carbon AC according to one page so I assume it's for the Gaming M5 too. ASUS claim improved input audio so I guess that's what really have improved but I don't know.

I don't know which one of the boards I should keep. And I really need to decide just about now.

ASUS was fasted with BIOS updates I felt. Wonder if this MSI BIOS have even removed my microcode updates? =P.
"2017-12-25", "Update Intel Micro Code for security vulnerabilities."

Maybe not .

I felt VRM caps, audio caps and VRM heatsinks looked bulkier on the ASUS board and it's shinier and supposedly have better audio.. So if the RAM actually worked ...

Also on the ASUS board once I enabled 3000 or 3200 MHz frequency DDR4 alone without using XMP profile the auto setting put the memory controller / RAM at 1.5 volt and I definitely didn't wanted that. I don't know how long I used that and I think that was a stupid move by them.


----------



## aliquiswe

Damn this MSI board had lots of settings for RAM. Maybe this is usual. I haven't checked on the ASUS. All I know is turning on XMP work on the MSI but not on the ASUS one.

It's very obvious that CPU IO is ~1.25 volt and CPU SA is ~1.31 volt on the MSI Z370 Gaming M5. It may not be on the ASUS board. I have no idea what it's there.

Here's all the timings and settings on the MSI board where it kinda seem to work:


----------



## CANTFINDCAPSLOCK

Has anyone used the "Asus Fan Holder" for VRM cooling before? I haven't been able to find information about it. The Asus website of the Prime Z270-A has this picture







. 

I know old Sabertooth (perhaps Z87 or was it Z170?) had a handy spot to hide a 40mm fan somewhere inside the IO shield, does Asus still do these on Z370 boards?

Also while I'm at it, does anyone know if the air from the Noctua NH-D15 helps provide air to the VRM at all?


----------



## alanthecelt

currently finishing my build on an Auros(sp) 5
chose this board specifically as i already had a mono block, and the onboard wifi was welcome, i had already heard the vrm solution was as great s on the 7, but the cost, and wifi was the decider.
I have a delidded 8700k with a pure copper IHS installed.
As soon as the last of my fittings arrive i'll get some basic tests done and throw the results in here, i'm hoping for a cool stable 5ghz, i know there is potential for more but to be honest, i'd rather just find a sweet spot


----------



## aliquiswe

Back to the ASUS Z370-F Strix. So pathetic.

How do I change the VCC IO and SA on the ASUS board?

MSI Z370 Gaming M5 used: IO 1.25 volt and SA is 1.31.
ASUS Z370-F Strix uses: IO 1.32 volt and SA 1.28 volt.

No idea if setting them to the same fix anything. I have no idea how to set them to the same though. After enabling XMP I always answer no to their overclocker stuff so I assume that's the MCE stuff (it doesn't tell what it's going to do really. Just like with everything else.)

It seem to suggest one need to switch off the CPU over-voltage restrictor to change them. Possibly. But it doesn't tell HOW to do that. I have no idea where that option is. I saw some which mentioned something about disabling communication between the CPU and some voltage thingy, was that that and if so what's that called and where is it?

Also this is the board which beyond the high IO and SA above also enabled 1.5 volt to the RAM from simply picking 3200 MHz plus I can only pick one of the XMP profiles and it also only have TWO chassis fan connectors on the board? Or? The splitter / extra connector for three more isn't in the box right? I haven't found mine at-least. It have plenty of fan, pump and what not connectors plus the RGB ones but only two which seem to be for chassis.

"1 x 5-pin EXT_FAN(Extension Fan) connector"

"Användarmanual 
ASUS Q-Shield
4 st. kablar för SATA 6 Gb/s 
1 x ASUS Fan Holder
1 paket buntband 
1 x M.2 Screw Package
1 x CPU installation tool
1 x Supporting DVD
1 x Strix door hanger
1 x SLI HB BRIDGE(2-WAY-M)
1 x ROG Strix stickers
1 x Extension Cable for RGB strips (80 cm)
1 x Extension cable for Addressable LED
1 x Thermistor cable(s)
1 x 3D printing mount package"

A whole lot of trash but no fan thingy.

It's too hard to chose between these two boards. Once upon a time Komplett offered like 20% discount. Should had bought the MSI Z370 Pro Carbon AC then I guess because that would had been ~1600 and this was ~1500 and the Gaming M5 was ~1700 but the later doesn't come with wifi and bluetooth which would help justify the higher cost and worse audio if that is a thing.

I don't know which of these to keep. I could send back both but then I have no computer and the question is when I can get something like them at a decent price again.

Is there any reason the Gaming M5 usually cost more than the Pro Carbon? The Pro Carbon have more RGB and I think it had like 1 single advantage (it do have Intel NIC rather than Killer at-least) and that can usually be had for about the same price.

This is so disturbing.

Or should I answer yet to the bull**** after the XMP thing? What does it even do? They don't tell ****. MCE it seem like one can disable afterwards but I have no idea what else it may do. Stupid company.


----------



## aliquiswe

I had such a hard time choosing originally. Extreme4 was the hyped board here and I could even get the K6 at a nice price once.

If I never had stumbled upon the audio part and just gotten say the Extreme 4 originally I wonder how much work and trouble that would had saved me. Over-informed. Wouldn't surprise me if the Extreme4 can run the RAM perfectly.


----------



## AlphaC

CANTFINDCAPSLOCK said:


> Has anyone used the "Asus Fan Holder" for VRM cooling before? I haven't been able to find information about it. The Asus website of the Prime Z270-A has this picture.
> 
> I know old Sabertooth (perhaps Z87 or was it Z170?) had a handy spot to hide a 40mm fan somewhere inside the IO shield, does Asus still do these on Z370 boards?
> 
> Also while I'm at it, does anyone know if the air from the Noctua NH-D15 helps provide air to the VRM at all?


It (the asus fan holder when used with a 40mm fan) adds additional airflow to the VRM section.

The air from a Noctua NH-D15 should provide 1200rpm to 1500rpm of 140mm fans' airflow unless you are limiting your fan speeds. That's around 200 linear feet per minute , but without fully knowing the properties of the VRM heatsinks all we can say that it will cool the VRM somewhat. A pin fin heatsink like a copper one from Enzotech scales extremely well with airflow up to around 400 or 500 LFM then there's diminishing returns.

See http://www.enzotechnology.com/performance/mst_81.pdf , http://www.enzotechnology.com/performance/mst_780i.pdf

You have to keep in mind if you don't delid then the thermal resistance from the CPU to the board is much lower than to the heatsink, so your VRM will run hotter due to heat from the CPU also going into the board.

--------

aliquiswe , MSI Gaming M5 uses a different VRM heatsink and different inductors (chokes) compared to the Pro Carbon. It also might use a different PWM doubler configuration. If it had a Intel LAN solution and a dual BIOS it might have been a good contender to the Asrock Extreme4 / K6 as it does have a Debug LED.

See the VRM heatsink on the Pro Carbon https://techreport.com/review/32836/msi-z370-gaming-pro-carbon-ac-motherboard-reviewed

-----------



alanthecelt said:


> currently finishing my build on an Auros(sp) 5
> chose this board specifically as i already had a mono block, and the onboard wifi was welcome, i had already heard the vrm solution was as great s on the 7, but the cost, and wifi was the decider.
> I have a delidded 8700k with a pure copper IHS installed.
> As soon as the last of my fittings arrive i'll get some basic tests done and throw the results in here, i'm hoping for a cool stable 5ghz, i know there is potential for more but to be honest, i'd rather just find a sweet spot


If you have a VRM block on the Gaming 5 you should be able to max out the power limit to 200W.

-----------
More reviews

5.2GHz i5-8600k @ 1.36V on the Asus Z370-I STRIX
https://www.hardocp.com/article/2018/02/12/asus_rog_strix_z370i_gaming_motherboard_review/7
I'm surprised but it's a delidded and likely binned chip , no AVX offset mentioned and i5 doesn't have additional current draw from HyperThreading even if voltage is similar

In contrast to this new review


https://3dnews.ru/965482 said:


> In general, the cooling system copes with its work. Under load in the LinX program, the VRM zone elements are heated to 93 degrees Celsius. In the case of Slim Desktop, the converter will be additionally blown by a fan of the CPU cooler Down Flow - in this operating mode the temperatures will be noticeably lower. In the Mini-Tower-casing, the power subsystem will also be noticeably more comfortable.


& https://itc.ua/articles/obzor-platy...i-gaming-kompaktnyiy-format-dlya-coffee-lake/



> When executing AVX instructions, the processor frequency drops to 4700 MHz. The stability of the chip under such conditions will already have to be checked more carefully, as well as monitoring the heating of the processor, taking into account the fact that in TPU II the supply voltage increased to 1,344-1,376 V.
> ...
> During the stress test of the processor in TPU II mode, the load on the power block increases noticeably, but the stabilization subsystem manages. There is no integrated temperature sensor for VRM, therefore we can focus on the indices obtained with a contactless pyrometer. According to the measurements, the temperature of the radiator on the elements in the area of ​​the interface panel increased to 55C, whereas the cooler installed for the MOSFET assemblies at the upper edge warmed up to 68C. The conditions are working, but here the already noticeably increased supply voltage of the chip in TPU II mode is already affecting. Of course, the final figures will depend on the conditions inside the system unit and the CPU cooler format.


https://www.overclockers.ua/motherboard/asrock-fatal1ty-z370-gaming-ITX-ac/all/


> Stabilization of the ideal is difficult to name, but as for a compact motherboard the situation is quite controlled. But the heating can really surprise, I could not fix the temperature above 57 ° C, and the radiator warmed up only to 38 ° C. This was not slow to affect the final consumption figures, the corridor was 42-215 watts. Of course, if we discard the background activity of the system, which is often encountered in this part of our reviews.


LinX load 


https://www.hkepc.com/16195/抵玩_Z370_ITX_細板_MSI_Z370I_Gaming_Pro_CARBON_AC

https://nl.hardware.info/reviews/79...iew-vrm-test-overklokken-op-spotgoedkoop-z370
Z370 Pro4 VRM hit 81 degrees with 1.39V and the CPU was cooled with a 120mm fan 3 heatpipe cooler



https://nl.hardware.info/reviews/7935/10/goedkope-z370-moederborden-asrock-z370-pro4-a-gigabyte-z370p-d3-review-vrm-test-overklokken-op-spotgoedkoop-z370 said:


> After approximately half an hour full load, the vrm temperature of both motherboards rises to just above 80 degrees. This is based on the temperature that the sensor records on the board and transmits it to the control system. If we measure the temperature of the heatsink with an infrared thermometer, it is striking that the ASRock becomes considerably warmer, from which you could deduce that it works better than the Gigabyte board.
> 
> As long as there is some airflow, the temperatures are still not too bad. Perhaps it is not settings that you want to run 24/7, but the components do not become hot enough to lead to throttling. However, as soon as we install a water cooler on the ASRock Z370 Pro4, it goes the wrong way. Although the cpu naturally remains cooler, the VRM temperature rises to 102 degrees and the heatsinks become 98 degrees. With that you are much deeper in the danger zone.


https://overclockers.ru/lab/show/89320_5/obzor-i-testirovanie-materinskoj-platy-gigabyte-z370xp-sli


> If already on the back side of the printed circuit board 80 ° C, then on the elements of the power circuits the same temperature can not be simply according to the laws of physics (thermal conductivity of a textolite is by no means ideal).
> 
> The ExeGate 9225M12B / UV3 fan was connected to the SYS_FAN1 connector, the VRM_MOS sensor readings were selected as the temperature source for adjusting its speed in the BIOS. This allowed us to win a couple of dozen degrees, but the first overclocking attempt returned everything to its places: after a few minutes of testing at Linpack, monitoring the temperature of the CPU supply circuits at a voltage of VCore ~ ​​1.3 V (on a multimeter) recorded a value of 123 ° C.


Gigabyte z370xp-sli roasting


----------



## encrypted11

Supermicro's Z370 ITX
https://www.tweaktown.com/reviews/8...g-iw-intel-z370-motherboard-review/index.html


----------



## Cyph3r

Hey guys - figured this might be interesting to some of you as it's regarding the power draw/VRMs

http://www.overclock.net/forum/5-in...power-let-s-compile-results.html#post26762353


----------



## kd5151

https://www.techpowerup.com/241581/gigabyte-outs-aorus-z370-ultra-gaming-2-0-with-improved-vrm

O RLY?


----------



## AlphaC

kd5151 said:


> https://www.techpowerup.com/241581/gigabyte-outs-aorus-z370-ultra-gaming-2-0-with-improved-vrm
> 
> O RLY?


Seems like the major difference to the Gaming 5 is the heatsink. It's an upgraded UD3H from what it looks like since the VRM heatsink is bolted down for more mounting pressure.

----

Also the NZXT N7 seems to be using a Maximus ROG Infineon 50A Dual channel mosfet with doublers. The caveat is the BIOs seems wonky in that the CPU temperature is much higher , which suggests that it isn't using the right amount of power.




http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/nzxt-n7-z37xt-1151-coffee-lake-motherboard-review,5415-4.html
https://www.anandtech.com/show/12215/the-nzxt-n7-z370-motherboard-review/2


----------



## wingman99

Will a Gigabyte Z370 HD3 handle i7 8700k 5.0-5.3GHz overclock?


----------



## AlphaC

*This is purely opinion :*
There's far better options than the HD3 : I would seriously suggest something like a $100 MSI Z370 SLI PLUS instead _if you just want the cheapest board possible_ due to USB 3.1 gen 2 and ALC1220 let alone the slightly better VRM quality. The Asrock Extreme4, that has hit the $125 level a few times after rebate and is ~$135 now, would be a better purchase though and less of your money would be tied up in rebates.
Z370 SLI PLUS ($30 rebate expires on 2/19/18) https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813144111
Z370 Extreme4 ($10 rebate expires on 2/28 but the price expires 2/19/18) https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813157789

In the Euro zone, per geizhals.eu the MSI SLI PLUS is about €125 and the Asrock Extreme4 runs around €135 so in that case the Extreme4 would definitely be a better choice. In fact PCGH (PCGameshardware.de) named it the mainstream board pick and so did Hardware.info NL. When you consider that the Extreme4 has a Dual Bios, there really isn't any advantage to low and mid end Gigabyte boards whatsoever (ok, maybe WIMA caps) since only GBT's Gaming 7 and Gaming 5 have a heatpiped heatsink and Debug LED.

For 5 GHz in gaming it _might_ be possible on HD3, but not for any sustained AVX load. _Unless you are a Gigabyte-only person I don't see why you wouldn't go for something else._ If you ARE a Gigabyte-only purchaser then I would opt for the new Aorus Ultra Gaming *2.0* (which should be between the GBT z370 Gaming 5 and the GBT UD3H) or z370 UD3H at the least. The GBT Gaming5 also seems to be running ~$150 right now.



zGunBLADEz said:


> and here i was fighting with my chip and throttling and a plethora of other issues and instabilitys on an asus z370-G strix it even blow a psu already lol
> 
> no wonder it felt CHEAP compared to my gene VII and Impact VII, i wasnt dreaming this mobo is on par same quality as my MSI AM4 mortar artic matx of $99
> 
> Asus its going the cheap way even the packaging and goodies sucks


The STRIX boards have always been lower tier than ROG ; now TUF has the bottom of barrel motherboards too
AM4 just had a pleasant surprise in the X370-F


----------



## zGunBLADEz

and here i was fighting with my chip and throttling and a plethora of other issues and instabilitys on an asus z370-G strix it even blow a psu already lol

no wonder it felt CHEAP compared to my gene VII and Impact VII, i wasnt dreaming this mobo is on par same quality as my MSI AM4 mortar artic matx of $99 

Asus its going the cheap way even the packaging and goodies sucks


----------



## wingman99

AlphaC said:


> *This is purely opinion :*
> There's far better options than the HD3 : I would seriously suggest something like a $100 MSI Z370 SLI PLUS instead _if you just want the cheapest board possible_ due to USB 3.1 gen 2 and ALC1220 let alone the slightly better VRM quality. The Asrock Extreme4, that has hit the $125 level a few times after rebate and is ~$135 now, would be a better purchase though and less of your money would be tied up in rebates.
> Z370 SLI PLUS ($30 rebate expires on 2/19/18) https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813144111
> Z370 Extreme4 ($10 rebate expires on 2/28 but the price expires 2/19/18) https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813157789
> 
> In the Euro zone, per geizhals.eu the MSI SLI PLUS is about €125 and the Asrock Extreme4 runs around €135 so in that case the Extreme4 would definitely be a better choice. In fact PCGH (PCGameshardware.de) named it the mainstream board pick and so did Hardware.info NL. When you consider that the Extreme4 has a Dual Bios, there really isn't any advantage to low and mid end Gigabyte boards whatsoever (ok, maybe WIMA caps) since only GBT's Gaming 7 and Gaming 5 have a heatpiped heatsink and Debug LED.
> 
> For 5 GHz in gaming it _might_ be possible on HD3, but not for any sustained AVX load. _Unless you are a Gigabyte-only person I don't see why you wouldn't go for something else._ If you ARE a Gigabyte-only purchaser then I would opt for the new Aorus Ultra Gaming *2.0* (which should be between the GBT z370 Gaming 5 and the GBT UD3H) or z370 UD3H at the least. The GBT Gaming5 also seems to be running ~$150 right now.
> 
> 
> 
> The STRIX boards have always been lower tier than ROG ; now TUF has the bottom of barrel motherboards too
> AM4 just had a pleasant surprise in the X370-F


Thanks for the information.


----------



## CANTFINDCAPSLOCK

I am looking for an ASUS board to match my Strix 1080. So far I have considered the Strix Z370-E and the Maximus X Hero. In Canadian maple syrup money, the Strix Z370-E is $250 and the Hero is $320. 

My current motherboard is pretty rock bottom (my 7600K feels as such lately) and I'd love to get a motherboard that feels more "high end" if that makes sense. I also have a build that is all blue, and I think the Hero will have nicer lighting. Cooling wise, I have an NH-D15 and six case fans. Pretty sure the Hero has 7 fan headers, which will come in handy. If it sounds like I am pretty much sold on the Hero, it's because I really want it! I just want some final opinions before I go for it. 

Assuming I'll be going for a delidded 8700K and I plan to push it really hard (expecting over 200W, occasional benches at 1.4V+, roughly 1.35V daily for other stuff), will this $70 difference show? Any opinions are valued!

Edit: One last question, is there a spot to place a VRM fan that is similar to the Gigabyte Aorus Gaming 7?









I am scared for hot temperatures in the summer (unfortunately no AC where I am staying).
I am not a fan of this particular mounting location: https://www.reddit.com/r/intel/comments/7ietbt/asus_maximus_hero_x_optional_vrm_fan_kinda_out_of/?st=jdtcekyc&sh=b432b66a


----------



## Solarity

CANTFINDCAPSLOCK said:


> I am looking for an ASUS board to match my Strix 1080. So far I have considered the Strix Z370-E and the Maximus X Hero. In Canadian maple syrup money, the Strix Z370-E is $250 and the Hero is $320.
> 
> My current motherboard is pretty rock bottom (my 7600K feels as such lately) and I'd love to get a motherboard that feels more "high end" if that makes sense. I also have a build that is all blue, and I think the Hero will have nicer lighting. Cooling wise, I have an NH-D15 and six case fans. Pretty sure the Hero has 7 fan headers, which will come in handy. If it sounds like I am pretty much sold on the Hero, it's because I really want it! I just want some final opinions before I go for it.
> 
> Assuming I'll be going for a delidded 8700K and I plan to push it really hard (expecting over 200W, occasional benches at 1.4V+, roughly 1.35V daily for other stuff), will this $70 difference show? Any opinions are valued!
> 
> Edit: One last question, is there a spot to place a VRM fan that is similar to the Gigabyte Aorus Gaming 7?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I am scared for hot temperatures in the summer (unfortunately no AC where I am staying).
> I am not a fan of this particular mounting location: https://www.reddit.com/r/intel/comments/7ietbt/asus_maximus_hero_x_optional_vrm_fan_kinda_out_of/?st=jdtcekyc&sh=b432b66a


You live in Toronto 

I wouldn't be that worried, it is not like you live in Arizona or Texas w/o AC. The Hero is a better board than the Stryx, though I think the Hero is overpriced and I think the Gaming 7 is slightly better and it even has the VRM fan. Most testers were unable to stress the board for the fan to start working. The fan is only their to make up for the form over function design of VRM heat sinks these days. Asus and Gigabyte are my go to brands for motherboards and anything that has ROG printed on it adds to the cost. If the Gaming 7 is more than the Hero, then I would consider the Hero. I wouldn't recommend any of the Stryx motherboards, they too are overpriced for what you get from a hardware standpoint. The Stryx boards are mid-range at best and the ASRock seem to hold the crown for price and performance at the mid range level. 

I know there is an urge to have matching parts, etc. though no one will notice the video is a different brand than the motherboard. My computer is very anti-fan boy:

MB: Gigabyte Gaming 7
GPU: MSI 1080 Sea Hawk EK (Got this as it included an EK water block for the same price as an air cooled).
Monitors: Both Asus one is a ROG Swift 27" 1440p @ 144hz (Yes I do have a ROG product)
RAM: Gskill
KB: Corsair
Mouse: Logitech
Headset: Senhiser (sp?)
Case: Rosewill Cullinan

Unless you have some crazy color scheme on something you bought, getting pretty much all neutral colors and using light to paint/accent, I think that is the best way to go. Sadly one company does not have the best of everything. Also the price points can vary for virtually the same product with a different label.

Lastly you can always buy Window AC unit, if you have money to drop on this, an AC unit shouldn't be a problem. ;-)


----------



## zGunBLADEz

AlphaC said:


> The STRIX boards have always been lower tier than ROG ; now TUF has the bottom of barrel motherboards too
> AM4 just had a pleasant surprise in the X370-F


They kept the rog name tag tho. I was looking at it and telling myself wth happened here. My latest 2rog mobos was gene vii and the impact vii. This 2 mobos are way ahead on build quality than this "rog" strix z370.


So only full atx boards are offered in that dept. No matx/itx quality. They were downgraded. 

This mobo feels cheap compared to those 2.


----------



## scracy

That's because Strix boards are not true ROG boards.


----------



## AlphaC

True ROG board:

https://proclockers.com/reviews/motherboards/asus-rog-maximus-x-formula-z370-motherboard/page/0/8

I'm not sure as to the test methodology.

40 degrees under load with water vs 70 degrees with air (5.1GHz)

-----

Supermicro's ITX board
https://proclockers.com/reviews/motherboards/supero-c7z370-cg-iw-z370-itx-motherboard/page/0/7

====
working on Asian websites' VRM info compilation for 2018 but there's some that may be reposts... 

Z370 ROG Formula : http://diy.pconline.com.cn/1063/10635524_1.html
(59°C in Prime95, see http://diy.pconline.com.cn/1063/10635524_2.html)

Z370-F STRIX , etc (repost): http://diy.pconline.com.cn/1027/10274129_2.html
(~70-80°C for most midrange boards in Prime95)

Fatal1ty K6 (possibly a repost): http://www.hwbattle.com/bbs/board.php?bo_table=hottopic&wr_id=8315

Extreme4: http://hwtips.tistory.com/2456 , 
http://www.hwbattle.com/bbs/board.php?bo_table=hottopic&wr_id=8161 (power consumption in handbrake)

Z370-A (Vishay variant) http://playwares.com/index.php?mid=pcreview&page=3&document_srl=56097124#
(Prime95 , MCE on with 40mm fan on VRM ~ 80°C , but 116°C without it ; ~190-255W at wall is around 160-180W at CPU)
* MCE applied ~ 1.36V

Z370 UD3H http://playwares.com/pcreview/56159931#
(Prime95 MCE on without fan is 105°C, 220ish Watts at wall) 
* MCE applied ~ 1.3V
* appears to be a 10-15°C difference to Z370 Gaming 5 , also Gaming 5 was able to handle 220-250W peak power , MCE applied 1.28V http://playwares.com/pcreview/55679055#

Z370 Extreme4 http://playwares.com/index.php?mid=pcreview&page=6&document_srl=55901205#
(Prime95 MCE on without fan is 106°C , ~220W at wall)
* 1.248V MCE , this is older BIOS 1.22 with issues

Z370 Pro Carbon http://playwares.com/index.php?mid=pcreview&page=6&document_srl=55896980#
(Prime95 MCE on without fan is ~95°C , about 200W at wall)
* MCE applied ~ 1.25V

Z370 Krait http://playwares.com/index.php?mid=pcreview&page=3&document_srl=56070279#
(Prime95 MCE on without fan is ~100°C , about 215-240W at wall)
*1.392V was applied with MCE on.

Z370 Krait confirmation of QN3103 +QN3107
http://bbs.danawa.com/view?boardSeq=28&listSeq=3506459

=====
Other reviews not in English
Z370-I STRIX (93°C in LinX with an AIO in a Phanteks ITX Shift case) https://3dnews.ru/965482

Z370-I STRIX (might be a repost) https://itc.ua/articles/obzor-platy...i-gaming-kompaktnyiy-format-dlya-coffee-lake/

https://www.ixbt.com/platform/asus-rog-maximus-x-apex-review.html


=====
Reviews in English


Z370-I STRIX : faulty out of the box settings
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/asus-rog-strix-z370-i-gaming-motherboard,5381-4.html
"Turning Load-line Calibration off prevented the CPU voltage from climbing, while turning all of the power limits up allowed the CPU to run at the expected 4.30 GHz under 12 threads of Prime95 using small FFTs. Rather than spike to 184W and then drop to 134W continuously, the CPU spiked at around 204W and ran at 202W continuously" ---- system power is specified


Z370 Pro Carbon
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/msi-z370-gaming-pro-carbon-ac-motherboard,5374-4.html

*Z370 Tomahawk* https://www.tweaktown.com/reviews/8517/msi-z370-tomahawk-intel-motherboard-review/index10.html
* Rather decent results with the 120mm fan providing airflow (52°C in handbrake), which bodes well for the Z370 SLI PLUS!


As a side note the inability to upload attach images is quite annoying


----------



## CANTFINDCAPSLOCK

Thanks for the well-thought-out reply, Solarity. I know the Gaming 7 is probably the "best pick" around here, and for good reason! I might go for it. 

I heard that some people experienced VRM heatsink contact issues. Is it an actual problem with the board (RMA necessary), or is tightening screws the actual fix? Also I heard some people having issues with the BIOS as well as software issues (drivers, audio). I hear the odd person mention these on other forums, but it's likely because they have not updated their BIOS. Anyways, have they improved/fixed these things? Thanks for the help as always guys.


----------



## Solarity

The VRM "issue", seems to have been with earlier boards. I got mine in November and didn't have an issue. I think it has been resolved as many people had fixed the issue themselves, by tightening the screws in the back of the board. I haven't heard of anything as of late. The VRM itself is one of the best VRMs out there, the cooler wasn't tightened enough on a handful of boards. 

I haven't had any issue with audio and I haven't seen any complaints on this forum. I have only seen complaints on the Gigabyte's forum so I am guessing they installed the wrong driver or something. I am currently using F4 bios revision and it is working fine. For me I just used the Windows supplied drivers and only installed drivers for my 1080 GTX.

I do love Asus and I even was weirdly attracted to the Republic of China...I mean Gamers brand. Though reading what Alpha C and the price point I got it for, it was stupid for me not to go with it. I think in the end I paid $360 for a the Z370 Gaming 7 and a 8600K. Originally got both for $430, then used a CC perk to roll back the price of the CPU $70 to match what MicroCenter was selling it for a few weeks later.

A little off topic I wonder if the ROG is a jab at China as ROC (Republic of China) is another name for Taiwan.


----------



## AlphaC

Hey guys I got some more info on the Aorus Ultra Gaming 2.0 from GBT Matt:


> You are correct its the Gaming 5 VRM design: 4+4 and 3 for memory (11 total). Same components - ISL 95866, ISL 6625. 2H2L for Vcore, 1H1L for MOS.


The VRM heatsink isn't the one from the Gaming 5 but it's a greatly improved revision (with screwed down heatsinks for more mounting pressure) as the UD3H seems to have the same thing as well (with pushpins).

-----
http://www.hardwarezone.com.sg/feat...temperature-power-consumption-overclocking-46
^ I'm trying to figure out why a reviewer's Taichi isn't able to hit 5.2GHz though when the GBT G7 and ROG Hero could do 5.2 and 5.15 respectively.


----------



## GBT-MatthewH

AlphaC said:


> Hey guys I got some more info on the Aorus Ultra Gaming 2.0 from GBT Matt:
> 
> 
> The VRM heatsink isn't the one from the Gaming 5 but it's a greatly improved revision (with screwed down heatsinks for more mounting pressure) as the UD3H seems to have the same thing as well (with pushpins).
> 
> -----
> http://www.hardwarezone.com.sg/feat...temperature-power-consumption-overclocking-46
> ^ I'm trying to figure out why a reviewer's Taichi isn't able to hit 5.2GHz though when the GBT G7 and ROG Hero could do 5.2 and 5.15 respectively.


Hey all, just popping back into the discussion. If you guys have any questions about the gigabyte boards, vrm, or specific components used tag me and ask away.

On another note I wanted to let everyone know this thread has made its rounds in the industry, around our office for sure. Just letting y'all know we listen... I wish I could share some of the awesome new designs we have coming up but it will have to wait  I can say with confidence you won't be disappointed!


----------



## wingman99

AlphaC said:


> Hey guys I got some more info on the Aorus Ultra Gaming 2.0 from GBT Matt:
> 
> 
> The VRM heatsink isn't the one from the Gaming 5 but it's a greatly improved revision (with screwed down heatsinks for more mounting pressure) as the UD3H seems to have the same thing as well (with pushpins).
> 
> -----
> http://www.hardwarezone.com.sg/feat...temperature-power-consumption-overclocking-46
> ^ I'm trying to figure out why a reviewer's Taichi isn't able to hit 5.2GHz though when the GBT G7 and ROG Hero could do 5.2 and 5.15 respectively.


How many phases for the cores?


----------



## kd5151

GBT-MatthewH said:


> Hey all, just popping back into the discussion. If you guys have any questions about the gigabyte boards, vrm, or specific components used tag me and ask away.
> 
> On another note I wanted to let everyone know this thread has made its rounds in the industry, around our office for sure. Just letting y'all know we listen... I wish I could share some of the awesome new designs we have coming up but it will have to wait  I can say with confidence you won't be disappointed!


X470? No wait...Z390? :drool:


----------



## GBT-MatthewH

wingman99 said:


> How many phases for the cores?


The Ultra Gaming 2.0 uses 4+4 for the Vcore (CPU).


----------



## wingman99

GBT-MatthewH said:


> The Ultra Gaming 2.0 uses 4+4 for the Vcore (CPU).


Thanks for the information.:specool:


----------



## wingman99

GBT-MatthewH said:


> The Ultra Gaming 2.0 uses 4+4 for the Vcore (CPU).


I was also wondering how many CPU core phases are there for the old Ultra Gaming 1.0?


----------



## GBT-MatthewH

wingman99 said:


> I was also wondering how many CPU core phases are there for the old Ultra Gaming 1.0?


UG 1.0 was 4 phases, so the UG 2.0 is literally doubled ;-) Side note they both have 3 phases for memory, no change.


----------



## wingman99

GBT-MatthewH said:


> UG 1.0 was 4 phases, so the UG 2.0 is literally doubled ;-) Side note they both have 3 phases for memory, no change.


Is the 3 phase for the memory rail Vccio and Vccsa? What phase is for the IGPU?


----------



## sherpa25

GBT-MatthewH said:


> Hey all, just popping back into the discussion. If you guys have any questions about the gigabyte boards, vrm, or specific components used tag me and ask away.
> 
> On another note I wanted to let everyone know this thread has made its rounds in the industry, around our office for sure. Just letting y'all know we listen... I wish I could share some of the awesome new designs we have coming up but it will have to wait  I can say with confidence you won't be disappointed!


Just taking this opportunity, though OT, when is GB going provide BIOS updates to older (ie. Z87) boards re Spectre? Just been through many threads all saying there's no response from GB. Thanks.

@AlphaC, is there an updated list for the MBs?


----------



## AlphaC

Ultra Gaming 1.0 was similar to Gaming 3:

https://overclockers.ru/lab/show/89...aterinskoj-platy-gigabyte-z370-aorus-gaming-3







(Last page has Linpack at stock 4.3GHz all core causing 104°C peak VRM temp)
The hugest change is the use of 8 inductors for V_core, which I imagine reduces the amount of heat that is dissipated through the board copper. The amount of mosfets is actually the same , it is just that two sets aren't sharing the same inductor.

Ultra Gaming 1.0 review:
http://www.xtremehardware.com/recen...ideogiocatore-esigente-2018022312336/?start=4

https://www.tweaktown.com/reviews/8509/gigabyte-z370-aorus-gaming-k3-intel-motherboard/index10.html
K3 result is pretty high for 4.9GHz


What seems to be first Z370 Aorus Gaming 2.0 review:
http://playwares.com/pcreview/56259597#
About 75°C at stock with no fans
About 106°C MCE on , with no fans
(~220-260W at wall)
Gaming 5 was cooler due to the VRM heatsink , this seems cooler than the Z370 UD3H at stock.

----

EVGA Micro is underperforming for whatever reason http://www.funkykit.com/reviews/motherboards/evga-z370-micro-motherboard-review/7/

-----
Asrock Extreme4 review (looks to be a copy-paste of xfastest)
http://oursogo.com/thread-2510509-1-1.html

NZXT N7
https://news.xfastest.com/review/46648/nzxt-n7-z370/
IR35201 PWM controller, ir3598











sherpa25 said:


> Just taking this opportunity, though OT, when is GB going provide BIOS updates to older (ie. Z87) boards re Spectre? Just been through many threads all saying there's no response from GB. Thanks.
> 
> @*AlphaC* , is there an updated list for the MBs?


I'm kind of torn since the thermal results do not always correlate between sites. I have an updated copy of the risk assessment on my computer since December actually.

Here's a chart I made (unpolished)








The question is, do I normalize the chart based off results with airflow (i.e. Tweaktown) or a much harsher AVX load with zero airflow as playwares uses?

Also the tweaktown results beg the question, is the VRM heatsink not that great since the backside is a full 20 degrees Celsius hotter than the front?

I'm also waiting on a definitive answer on the Asrock Taichi situation brought up a few pages back. There's markings on the PCB suggesting that two mosfets are for IO+SA and not VCore.


----------



## wingman99

What motherboard is it that shows the IGPU, Vcore, Vccio, Vccsa phases?


----------



## AlphaC

wingman99 said:


> What motherboard is it that shows the IGPU, Vcore, Vccio, Vccsa phases?


It's from Overclockers.ru , GBT's Z370 K3

GBT Aorus Ultra Gaming 1.0
GBT Aorus K3
GBT XP SLI
GBT Gaming wifi
GBT Aorus Gaming 3 

all are similar , except Aorus Ultra Gaming 1.0 has a screwed in heatsink.


----------



## wingman99

AlphaC said:


> It's from Overclockers.ru , GBT's Z370 K3
> 
> GBT Aorus Ultra Gaming 1.0
> GBT Aorus K3
> GBT XP SLI
> GBT Gaming wifi
> GBT Aorus Gaming 3
> 
> all are similar , except Aorus Ultra Gaming 1.0 has a screwed in heatsink.


Thanks for showing the Gigabyte Aorus Ultra Gaming 1.0 phase setup 4-Vcore, 3-igpu, 2-Vccio,Vccsa, inductor, and MOSFETs review versus the Gigabyte Aorus Ultra Gaming 2.0. with 8 Vcores inductors:specool:


----------



## Astral85

Rumors are that Z390 may launch this year but what are Coffee lake "S" processors going to be that will released along side?


----------



## asdkj1740

Astral85 said:


> Rumors are that Z390 may launch this year but what are Coffee lake "S" processors going to be that will released along side?


new chipsets except z390 are coming in april.
z390 should arrive later...


----------



## Astral85

asdkj1740 said:


> new chipsets except z390 are coming in april.
> z390 should arrive later...


Any idea what the Z390 processors will be? A Coffee lake refresh?


----------



## wingman99

What budget Z370 motherboards can you overclock the i7 8700k to 5.0GHz and not have to make changes to the current limit and power limit so there won't be any throttling?


----------



## asdkj1740

wingman99 said:


> What budget Z370 motherboards can you overclock the i7 8700k to 5.0GHz and not have to make changes to the current limit and power limit so there won't be any throttling?


THAT REALLY DEPENDS ON VCORE VOLTAGE, FOR <1.3V, EVERY Z370 CAN SERVE YOU WELL.

FOR 1.35V, EVEN THE MOTHERBOARD CAN HANDLE IT, YOU NEED A SUPER HIGH END COOLER (AT LEAST NOCTUA D15) IF YOU HAVE NOT DEDDIDED YOUR 8700K.

GIGABYTE ULTRA GAMING 2.0
MSI PRO CARBON
ASROCK EXTREME 4/K6
ASUS PRIME A 

THESE SHOULD BE ABLE TO HANDLE 1.35V.


----------



## wingman99

What does the ASUS ROG Maximus X Hero use for the VRM power MOSFET?


----------



## AlphaC

It uses Infineon 50A rated Optimos (BSG0812ND)

It's similar to the Texas Instruments NexFETs in that they have the high and low side mosfets copackaged.


----------



## wingman99

AlphaC said:


> It uses Infineon 50A rated Optimos (BSG0812ND)
> 
> It's similar to the Texas Instruments NexFETs in that they have the high and low side mosfets copackaged.


Thank you for the information that is what I was exactly looking for.:specool:


----------



## CANTFINDCAPSLOCK

GBT-MatthewH said:


> Hey all, just popping back into the discussion. If you guys have any questions about the gigabyte boards, vrm, or specific components used tag me and ask away.
> 
> On another note I wanted to let everyone know this thread has made its rounds in the industry, around our office for sure. Just letting y'all know we listen... I wish I could share some of the awesome new designs we have coming up but it will have to wait  I can say with confidence you won't be disappointed!


Hi there, I'm a bit new to this website so forgive me if I am not tagging you properly!

Just picked up the Aorus Gaming 7 and I was wondering - how accurate are readings such as power draw and VRM temperatures? I use HWInfo and I see around 180W+ during Prime95, and VRMs roughly 65C. Also, is the "Turbo" loadline calibration overvolting my CPU at all? I read that you need a voltmeter to accurately determine how much voltage is going to the CPU.


----------



## AlphaC

CANTFINDCAPSLOCK said:


> Hi there, I'm a bit new to this website so forgive me if I am not tagging you properly!
> 
> Just picked up the Aorus Gaming 7 and I was wondering - how accurate are readings such as power draw and VRM temperatures? I use HWInfo and I see around 180W+ during Prime95, and VRMs roughly 65C. Also, is the "Turbo" loadline calibration overvolting my CPU at all? I read that you need a voltmeter to accurately determine how much voltage is going to the CPU.


VRM fan turns on at 90°C

http://blog.livedoor.jp/wisteriear/archives/1068298475.html







^ 5 GHz , 1.3V LLC Turbo , AVIUTL x264 using AVX instructions , AIO CPU cooler with no airflow from case fans

https://www.tweaktown.com/reviews/8377/gigabyte-z370-aorus-gaming-7-motherboard-review/index10.html


> Under our controlled testing environment, the motherboard has one of the cooler running VRMs. The motherboard also has a small fan under the IO shield, but it only turns on when the VRMs hit 90C, which didn't happen during our testing.
> 
> Read more: https://www.tweaktown.com/reviews/8377/gigabyte-z370-aorus-gaming-7-motherboard-review/index10.html


Unless you are running over 4.9GHz / 5 GHz @ 1.3V speed with AVX instructions I would not worry too much about it.

edit: also see the power stages' datasheet
https://www.intersil.com/en/product...mvp/smart-power-stage/ISL99227B.html#overview
https://www.intersil.com/content/dam/Intersil/documents/isl9/isl99227-27b.pdf



> ISL99227B Smart Power Stage (SPS) Module with Integrated High Accuracy Current and Temperature Monitors
> Current Gain Accuracy 2%
> ≥10A, T_J= +40°C to +125° = 3%
> 
> 
> 8mV/°C temperature monitor
> V (T_J)= 0.6V + (8mV*T_J)


For K-type thermocouples used to measure temperature, the Seebeck coefficient is normally 41 µV/°C


----------



## zGunBLADEz

CANTFINDCAPSLOCK said:


> Hi there, I'm a bit new to this website so forgive me if I am not tagging you properly!
> 
> Just picked up the Aorus Gaming 7 and I was wondering - how accurate are readings such as power draw and VRM temperatures? I use HWInfo and I see around 180W+ during Prime95, and VRMs roughly 65C. Also, is the "Turbo" loadline calibration overvolting my CPU at all? I read that you need a voltmeter to accurately determine how much voltage is going to the CPU.


if your svid is on to get the most accurate reading thru software you would need to match the svid to the vcore upto 0.016mv variance which is the 8bit limitation of software reading this is only possible on adaptive in my case. Thats just to get an estimate of the power usage via software still not 100% but good indication to go by.

IE: my vcore is at 1.385v with LLC6 i get a vdroop to 1.360-1.376v depending of the load avx is 1.376v lower load 1.360V notice the 0.016v variation?

so lets say in this particular load (it varies of course depending on the load on P95 for example) my vcore is at 1.360v my vid is at 1.329v 
software reading (hwinfo/core temp) are telling me the power usage is 205-210w asus program is telling me my power usage is 190-193w theres like up to 10% of variance i have notice. a gap like that is only noticeable on heavy loads.

If you are using static vcore the svid can be way lower than the "REAL VCORE" vid have no meanings for you to follow perse. VCORE IS VCORE thats the real voltage so dont confuse that like some ppl here.

Or you can forget all about that and use a Kill a Watt instead.


----------



## polynomialc

how is the vrm MSI M5 vs carbon ac? ive been thinking of switching from asus, because of coil whine issues, that my studio monitor speakers are picking up. current z170 hero viii.


----------



## AlphaC

polynomialc said:


> how is the vrm MSI M5 vs carbon ac? ive been thinking of switching from asus, because of coil whine issues, that my studio monitor speakers are picking up. current z170 hero viii.


MSI's Z370 Gaming M5 and Z370 Pro Carbon / Z370 Pro Carbon AC seem to have different inductors and an extra IC likely for doubling phases.

Both are solidly midrange and are suitable for people that were considering the Z370-E/F/G STRIX or Z370-A boards.


----------



## polynomialc

I ordered the Msi M5 with 8700k. it looks like a decent board, i'm only looking for light overclock. giving msi a chance, see how it goes.


----------



## asdkj1740

AlphaC said:


> MSI's Z370 Gaming M5 and Z370 Pro Carbon / Z370 Pro Carbon AC seem to have different inductors and an extra IC likely for doubling phases.
> 
> Both are solidly midrange and are suitable for people that were considering the Z370-E/F/G STRIX or Z370-A boards.


carbon series has terrible heatsink design....extremely lack of surface area...


----------



## Asus11

my Asrock fatality ITX is giving me trouble , keeps randomly freezing no BSOD, after searching on the net it seems like its a widespread problem with nearly all Z370 Asrock boards, something to do with iffy XMP settings.

some have managed to stop it by disabling XMP etc and disabling C state, ive tried it all and it still does it, I really can't afford for this to happen anymore, I know the Fatality is rated the best ITX but whats the next best thing to it? I never had an issue with my impact VIII, but the STRIX ITX looks like weak sauce


----------



## AlphaC

Asus11 said:


> my Asrock fatality ITX is giving me trouble , keeps randomly freezing no BSOD, after searching on the net it seems like its a widespread problem with nearly all Z370 Asrock boards, something to do with iffy XMP settings.
> 
> some have managed to stop it by disabling XMP etc and disabling C state, ive tried it all and it still does it, I really can't afford for this to happen anymore, I know the Fatality is rated the best ITX but whats the next best thing to it? I never had an issue with my impact VIII, but the STRIX ITX looks like weak sauce


This is semi-offtopic but it likely has to do with IA AC/DC loadline , usually it is recommended at 0.01.

----

In other news the Z370-G STRIX isn't running as cool as it could be once you consider that it has the H110i fans running maxed out (2100RPM...). It's only about as cool as the Pro Carbon with a 120mm fan and H110i on auto?


https://www.tweaktown.com/reviews/8533/asus-rog-strix-z370-gaming-wi-fi-ac-intel-review/index10.html said:


> During ALL TESTS, fans above the VRM that cool the CPU cooler's (Corsair H110i) radiator are turned on to high (12v).
> https://www.tweaktown.com/reviews/8533/asus-rog-strix-z370-gaming-wi-fi-ac-intel-review/index10.html


GBT Z370 HD3P review https://www.tweaktown.com/reviews/8510/gigabyte-z370-hd3p-intel-motherboard-review/index10.html

MSI Z370 M5 review at ocholic 
https://www.ocaholic.ch/modules/smartsection/item.php?itemid=4135&page=3
album: https://ocaholic.ch/modules/extgall...tart=45&id=1158&orderby=ASC&sortby=photo_name

3dnews GBT Gaming 3 review
https://3dnews.ru/965188


----
I think MSI might be using Panasonic (Matsu****a) capacitors based on the typeface of the M. (http://www.hardwaresecrets.com/how-to-identify-japanese-electrolytic-capacitors/3/) It's pervasive throughout their range from the Tomahawk, SLI PLUS, Krait, Pro Carbon, M5.

Something to note is that Apaq capacitors (from Taiwan) are used on cheaper Gigabyte boards from UD3H down. I've seen a Z370P D3 with an E instead (United Chemi-con, evercon or enesol maybe) so it may be alternate suppliers are used as well.
http://capacitor.web.fc2.com/solidcapacitor.html#apaq
Example datasheet listing 5K hours: http://www.apaq.com.tw/images/Product/4278333485_SE.pdf , http://www.apaq.com.tw/images/Product/4277240697_SE.pdf

"FP" capacitors from Nichichon are used on all ROG Maximus boards, Gigabyte's Ultra Gaming 2.0 / Ultra wifi / 5 / 7, Asrock's Killer SLI and up (so Taichi , Fatal1ty ITX, Extreme4, Fatal1ty K6, Fatal1ty i7).
http://capacitor.web.fc2.com/solidcapacitor.html#fpcap


----------



## encrypted11

Asus11 said:


> my Asrock fatality ITX is giving me trouble , keeps randomly freezing no BSOD, after searching on the net it seems like its a widespread problem with nearly all Z370 Asrock boards, something to do with iffy XMP settings.
> 
> some have managed to stop it by disabling XMP etc and disabling C state, ive tried it all and it still does it, I really can't afford for this to happen anymore, I know the Fatality is rated the best ITX but whats the next best thing to it? I never had an issue with my impact VIII, but the STRIX ITX looks like weak sauce


Getting no issues with the fatality itx. The only gripe has been PWM/DC fan control on CPU_FAN and CHA_FAN that are strictly PWM headers.

Had a Maximus X Hero, I haven't lost clocking potential from downsizing. On ASRock you'll need LLC1 (equivalent of LLC 5.5 on true ROG boards) for overclocking. LLC2 is behaviorally similar to ASUS's 3.5.
I've even passed GSAT on 4400-C18-19-19-39-2T. Memory frequency yields can't be bad on this board.



Spoiler


----------



## encrypted11

It might be worth looking into your BIOS settings. 

If you're running VID offset mode, in theory you could run into stability especially with negative offsets when the CPU goes into low power states since it would apply the undervolts across the board with the calculated VID. I could see offset mode (not limited to ASRock's implementation) becoming a PITA with high VID CPU samples since its users are likely to apply negative offsets. Partial disablement of c states are a likely a necessary tradeoff for running such a chip with power management enabled.

Of course if you're currently running an offset of say -50 LLC1 with a target load vcore of 1.35V, you could explore usage of alternatives including +10 LLC2 that'll probably give you a target vCore of ~1.35V on load as well with some trial and error. That's just offset mode "by design".

Also ASRock boards, you're currently limited to -100mV for the maximum allowable negative offset. More context would probably help with identifying the freeze issues.


----------



## wingman99

I really wonder if it is necessary to disable C states since they are only active when the core is idle HALT and there is no calculations going on.

On all my PCs I have overclocked with adaptive I always have C states enabled without a problem.


----------



## encrypted11

I have no issues running all c states enabled, 5-100% CPU performance state in Windows.
But I had a moderate default VID 7700K (1.216V) and low default VID 8700K (1.072V).
A small positive offset (via Adaptive on ASUS, offset mode on ASRock). 

Just highlighting a point of contention that can potentially affect system stability on low load with c states overclocking some people could find this a necessary tweak. But Adaptive on ASUS (non turbo states run default VID scaling, turbo tables switches to offset mode) has been a more flexible implementation for c state overclocking that may require less trial and error when backported from a stable fixed voltage OC profile. 

Pure offsets may get a little sketchy from stable fixed voltage OC profile. It works, but there's more to figure. 
Asus11 came from an M8I like I did. I personally found what I understood from ASUS's Adaptive usage couldn't be used on ASRock's offset 1:1 is what I'm highlighting.


----------



## encrypted11

It started out as a frustrating experience since you'd need to figure out if there are behavioural differences on CPU requested VID per 100MHz on the OC profile targets whereas on Adaptive, you'd key in just the VID override with an optional offset.
For example on offset, if you're making 5.0-5.2GHz offset profiles you'll have to find out whether the CPU is asking for the same VID numbers or something different. (It were the exact numbers on my 8700K).

Next, you'd have to take non-AVX vs AVX VIDs into consideration where fixed mode accounts for both while ASRock's Offset implementation has a non-AVX fallback. 
If you're running say OCCT LDS at 1.35V with a + 50mV offset LLC1, to match the equivalent of 1.35V LLC1 fixed.
Your peak non-AVX voltages can be say 40mV lower than 1.35V with that same overclock on offset. But the paradox lies with the matter if 1.31V a non-AVX stable overclock for that system in reality, it depends on a case by case basis and I can relate to what Mystical (with a gigabyte board's DVID mode I believe) is highlighting here in a similar context.





Mysticial said:


> Quote: Originally Posted by *JisusKraist*
> 
> But my question is, is there a way to change the AVX voltage offset independently or is it tied to the CPU voltage offset.
> 
> 
> As far as I can tell, the answer is no. Which IMO, is a weakness of the platform. I have a similar situation on both my X299 systems.
> 
> 
> If I optimize it for non-AVX, then I'm forced to drop AVX and AVX512 all the way down to near stock settings to keep them stable.
> If I optimize for AVX or AVX512, then I'm forced to drop the non-AVX to prevent absurdly high voltages and overheating at the higher clocks.
> 
> So you will need to pick your poison. Do you want non-AVX? Or AVX? Or some compromise in the middle.
> 
> Personally, I have 1 box optimized for non-AVX and the other optimized for AVX512.


----------



## AlphaC

Asrock confirmed 10+2 to me and also gave me tips on identifying variants:


> *Z370 Taichi*
> 
> PWM IC: ISL69138
> 
> MOSFET: DPC5030(Fairchild) and M7341(Sinopower): main source and second source
> 
> Power: V10+2
> 
> 
> *Z370 Gaming K6/Z370 Extreme4*
> 
> PWM IC: ISL69138
> 
> MOSFET: DPC5030(Fairchild) and M7341(Sinopower): main source and second source
> 
> Power: V10+2
> 
> There is only one VRM module on the board. But the “MOS” of VRM have two.
> One is M7341(Sinopower) and the other is DPC5030(Fairchind)
> 
> It is possible to check the IC number to distinguish the source.
> If the IC is APW8720B -> Fairchind
> If the IC is RT8120B -> Sinopower













Spoiler



full email









----------

Here's my proposed risk assessment chart if that is true , please let me know if there's any objections:









I moved the UD3H to the light orange entry zone since it's using 5K caps from a Taiwanese manufacturer and is also using push pins.

Also updated temp compilation:


Spoiler














I will probably email EVGA for the TDA88420 datasheet but I doubt they will provide it.


----------



## e-gate

wingman99 said:


> I really wonder if it is necessary to disable C states since they are only active when the core is idle HALT and there is no calculations going on.
> 
> On all my PCs I have overclocked with adaptive I always have C states enabled without a problem.


Some people leave the C states on while OC some others not.
Interestingly though Gigabyte's official Z370 OC guide mentions that C states and speedstep must be disabled during OC to help with stability.
Same thing as with my old 2500K.
I guess it's better to disable them on high overclocks.


----------



## josephimports

AlphaC said:


> Asrock confirmed 10+2 to me and also gave me tips on identifying variants:
> View attachment 99729
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> full email
> View attachment 99721
> 
> 
> 
> ----------
> 
> Here's my proposed risk assessment chart if that is true , please let me know if there's any objections:
> 
> View attachment 99753
> 
> 
> I moved the UD3H to the light orange entry zone since it's using 5K caps from a Taiwanese manufacturer and is also using push pins.
> 
> Also updated temp compilation:
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 99745
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I will probably email EVGA for the TDA88420 datasheet but I doubt they will provide it.


Nice chart.


----------



## AlphaC

According to this Korean site's VRM chart the Asus STRIX lineup & Z370-A boards use Taiwanese APAQ 5K hour capacitors (AR5K).
http://hwtips.tistory.com/2458

full datasheets available at http://www.apaq.com.tw/eng_products_detail.asp

The mosfet ratings are also at 25 degrees Celsius and don't factor in temperature or package power limits.

The GBT Ultra Gaming 2.0 might be using Capxon or some other non "FP" brand in some instances per playwares.com/pcreview/56259597 & http://playwares.com/userreview/56291524

What does that mean for capacitor reliability? A board with capacitors that have 5K hour rating from Taiwan/China can be expected to be less reliable than a 10 or 12K hour Japanese capacitor variant running 10 degrees hotter. It's even worse if the rating isn't at 105 degrees.

Full capxon catalog http://www.capxongroup.com/files/capxon ca-cap catalog total.pdf

------------

Ironically Tom's hardware also posted an overclocking summary of power consumption in various stress tests:






















http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/stress-test-cpu-pc-guide,5461-12.html

*Prime95 AVX Small FFTs: 172W CPU power*
Prime95 AVX Blend: 130W CPU power
Prime95 SSE Small FFTs: 107W CPU power
Prime95 SSE Blend: 98W CPU power
*OCCT Small Datasets: 148W CPU power*
OCCT Linpack AVX: 130W CPU power
OCCT Big datasets: 113W CPU power
OCCT Linpack SSE: 115W CPU power
*AIDA64 FPU: 156W CPU power*
AIDA64 , CPU+FPU+Cache:128W CPU power
AIDA64 cache: 114W CPU power
AIDA64 CPU: 84W CPU power
* Powermax AVX : 160W CPU power*

This was with an i7-*8700 *locked CPU on a Z370 Pro carbon.

---------------------------------------------------------------------
March 5 update:Seems for Asus' STRIX Z370-H there is an onsemi variant.https://ru.gecid.com/mboard/asus_rog_strix_z370-h_gaming/?s=0

March 7 update: Verification of Vishay SiRA part on Z370-F STRIX : https://www.ixbt.com/platform/asus-rog-strix-z370-f-gaming-review.html


----------



## br0da

List(s) at hardwareluxx should be up to date by now, thanks to ?C for continuing collecting infos!
I'll check out what else I can find, for anything still missing just go ahead and tell me.


----------



## AlphaC

br0da said:


> List(s) at hardwareluxx should be up to date by now, thanks to ?C for continuing collecting infos!
> I'll check out what else I can find, for anything still missing just go ahead and tell me.


You're welcome , good to see you again on OCN.

another Korean GBT Ultra Gaming 2.0 review http://bbs.danawa.com/view?boardSeq=264&listSeq=3568714#


z370 FTW review (definitely powerstages) https://elchapuzasinformatico.com/2018/03/evga-z370-ftw-review/








http://www.xanxogaming.com/reviews/gigabyte/z370aorusgaming5/5/








-----

GBT Z370 Gaming 3 disappointing yet again
https://overclockers.ru/lab/show/89...aterinskoj-platy-gigabyte-z370-aorus-gaming-3

Ultra Gaming 2.0 vs 1.0
https://nl.hardware.info/reviews/80...g-20-review-zelfde-ronde-nieuwe-kans-vrm-test
No airflow stock = 87°C instead of 112°C
OC with airflow = 94°C instead of 100°C (still a bit high)

EVGA Classified K , broken V_Droop setting
https://overclock3d.net/reviews/cpu_mainboard/evga_z370_classified_k_review/3

Krait Gaming did surprisingly well in gecid review, approximately as cool as Z370-A
https://ru.gecid.com/mboard/msi_z370_krait_gaming/


----------



## Icanthelplt90

*Anyone with a Asrock Z370 Fata1ity ITX able to help me out.*

So I haven't bought it yet but am planning on it soon. I have some Noctua 40x20 and 40x10 fans and was planning on using them to cool the vrms possibly. I am hoping to not use the I/O shield and have one exhausting out the back in the location i have marked in red. I am hoping to not have to desolder the USB ports like I've done before. Can anyone with that board measure the areas I've marked in red?

I'm hoping that maybe the 10mm fan can squeeze between the ports and the heatsink. I am planning on doing a custom loop the CPU and GPU with a PSU in the top of the case drawing air from in the case. If you guys don't think its necessary (vrm fan) then i guess i don't need measurements lol


----------



## Asus11

can anyone steer me in the right direction? im after a decent MITX board, I currently have the asrock fatality z370 itx and its the 2nd one I've had, the first one came used second one came new but had the DDR4 memory issue which was solved with a bios update but the motherboard has very very annoying coilwhine, I changed PSU I changed cases from openair to closed and its still annoying as hell its like them noises they use for dogs
so ive had enough of trying out asrock ( first time and probably last)

next two motherboard im deciding is Z370I GAMING PRO CARBON AC or Strix Z370I

im leaning towards the carbon AC but to be fair I have no idea of their capabilities when it comes to VRMs etc I've only heard the STRIX is weak for the 8th gen

would appreciate the help as I don't frequent this forum as I used to, I don't know why but ever since they changed the forums layout it messed up me :-\


----------



## diksadu2a

can anyone help me choose between his motherboard please?

use: overcloking editing and gaming ...for i7-8700k


- ASUS PRIME Z370-A 126$
- ASUS STRIX Z370-E GAMING 166$
- ASROCK FATALITY Z370 GAMING K6 170$
- ASROCK Z370 TAICHI 200$
- AORUS Z370 GAMING 7 217$

thank you all


----------



## AlphaC

@ Icanthelplt90 : there's a heatpipe connecting the PCH to the VRM heatsink

As long as you have airflow over the board you should be okay , assuming you aren't encoding video or whatnot.

----

@ Asus11, I don't know if the Z370I Gaming Pro Carbon is worth buying since it seems to suffer the same lack of fin area and also uses weaker mosfets than the 370 Fatal1ty ITX.

Tom's hardware and bittech had decent results for it but default power limits were supposedly ~ 130W. Chiphell review: https://www.chiphell.com/portal.php?mod=view&aid=19322&page=3 , hkepc review https://www.hkepc.com/16195/抵玩_Z370_ITX_細板_MSI_Z370I_Gaming_Pro_CARBON_AC

Per the hkepc review it's using QM3816 from Ubiq , a part which responds okay to airflow on the VRM heatsinks. It'll probably top out around 110-120A at 1.4V (~170W) before becoming toasty.

Of course if you think an i5 on Cinebench is a stress test , it can do 5.3GHz per this guy on youtube (


Spoiler










)

Maybe someone who has purchased the board can chime in.

----

@ diksadu2a , if the Z370-A is that cheap (it's typically $160-170) I'd go for it with an AVX offset and airflow so long as you don't need to use x265 AVX2, otherwise the Gaming 7 seems pretty affordable in your situation.


----------



## diksadu2a

Thank you for your answer @AlphaC 

i can have ASROCK Z370 EXTREME4 at 132$
it's a better option than the ASUS Z370-A at 126$ or not in your opinion?


----------



## AlphaC

diksadu2a said:


> Thank you for your answer @*AlphaC*
> 
> i can have ASROCK Z370 EXTREME4 at 132$
> it's a better option than the ASUS Z370-A at 126$ or not in your opinion?


It's a better option, it is rated highly by PCGH.de , hardware.info, hardwareunboxed (techspot), and others. Also it was patched for spectre a few days earlier than the Asus Z370-A so it's been getting top grade attention as far as the BIOS.

Since it has a dual BIOs it may be worth it to safeguard against any bad overclocks too.

The K6 and Extreme4 are the same except K6 has an external clock generator, second LAN, buttons for power/reset, the heatpipe at the heatsink, and different styling (board and BIOS).


----------



## VeritronX

Icanthelplt90 said:


> So I haven't bought it yet but am planning on it soon. I have some Noctua 40x20 and 40x10 fans and was planning on using them to cool the vrms possibly. I am hoping to not use the I/O shield and have one exhausting out the back in the location i have marked in red. I am hoping to not have to desolder the USB ports like I've done before. Can anyone with that board measure the areas I've marked in red?
> 
> I'm hoping that maybe the 10mm fan can squeeze between the ports and the heatsink. I am planning on doing a custom loop the CPU and GPU with a PSU in the top of the case drawing air from in the case. If you guys don't think its necessary (vrm fan) then i guess i don't need measurements lol





Asus11 said:


> can anyone steer me in the right direction? im after a decent MITX board, I currently have the asrock fatality z370 itx and its the 2nd one I've had, the first one came used second one came new but had the DDR4 memory issue which was solved with a bios update but the motherboard has very very annoying coilwhine, I changed PSU I changed cases from openair to closed and its still annoying as hell its like them noises they use for dogs
> so ive had enough of trying out asrock ( first time and probably last)
> 
> next two motherboard im deciding is Z370I GAMING PRO CARBON AC or Strix Z370I
> 
> im leaning towards the carbon AC but to be fair I have no idea of their capabilities when it comes to VRMs etc I've only heard the STRIX is weak for the 8th gen
> 
> would appreciate the help as I don't frequent this forum as I used to, I don't know why but ever since they changed the forums layout it messed up me :-\


I have one of those boards in the mail, will check for fan fitment and coil whine when it gets here. I'm pretty sensitive to coil whine and will be pissed if the board I imported from the USA has that problem. I have the 40mm fan that came with my z97 sabertooth board around here somewhere.


----------



## HvacGuru

AlphaC said:


> The K6 and Extreme4 are the same except K6 has an external clock generator, second LAN, buttons for power/reset, the heatpipe at the heatsink, and different styling (board and BIOS).


Besides the 6-7 i mentioned as upgrdes. Save 10.00 lol You can't make this stuff up lol.


----------



## wingman99

AlphaC said:


> It's a better option, it is rated highly by PCGH.de , hardware.info, hardwareunboxed (techspot), and others. Also it was patched for spectre a few days earlier than the Asus Z370-A so it's been getting top grade attention as far as the BIOS.
> 
> Since it has a dual BIOs it may be worth it to safeguard against any bad overclocks too.
> 
> The K6 and Extreme4 are the same except K6 has an external clock generator, second LAN, buttons for power/reset, the heatpipe at the heatsink, and different styling (board and BIOS).


Dual BIOS came in handy for me, I was playing with BCLK and corrupted my main BIOS then the backup BIOS took over booted up atomically reflashed the main BIOS on my Gigabyte motherboard.


----------



## encrypted11

Asus11 said:


> can anyone steer me in the right direction? im after a decent MITX board, I currently have the asrock fatality z370 itx and its the 2nd one I've had, the first one came used second one came new but had the DDR4 memory issue which was solved with a bios update but the motherboard has very very annoying coilwhine, I changed PSU I changed cases from openair to closed and its still annoying as hell its like them noises they use for dogs
> so ive had enough of trying out asrock ( first time and probably last)
> 
> next two motherboard im deciding is Z370I GAMING PRO CARBON AC or Strix Z370I
> 
> im leaning towards the carbon AC but to be fair I have no idea of their capabilities when it comes to VRMs etc I've only heard the STRIX is weak for the 8th gen
> 
> would appreciate the help as I don't frequent this forum as I used to, I don't know why but ever since they changed the forums layout it messed up me :-\


If the ASRock Fatal1ty ITX can't handle your demands, the other Z370i's wouldn't be up to scratch either. If you looked at Techspot, Amazon reviews there are a couple of coil whine reports for the strix-i when the VRM work rate increases.
Anyway, memory frequency yields on the ASRock Z370 GIX.


Spoiler























Placing between 200-300W on the VRMs.


Spoiler















I would only expect a Z370 strix-i to potentially perform the ASRock GIX in the area of competitive memory overclocking since it isn't likely to run a BIOS imposed VDIMM cap (there aren't a lot of Z370i memory benchmarks either). There are no Asus impact boards planned this refresh, if you'd like to head into the competitive overclocking space you're probably looking at the apex.


----------



## Icanthelplt90

VeritronX said:


> I have one of those boards in the mail, will check for fan fitment and coil whine when it gets here. I'm pretty sensitive to coil whine and will be pissed if the board I imported from the USA has that problem. I have the 40mm fan that came with my z97 sabertooth board around here somewhere.



My Fata1ity Z370 ITX is in the mail lol. figured id just order it and see what happens  no proc yet but that'll be in a few weeks


----------



## F-man4

Some personal data of Gigabyte Z370N-WIFI (which is in Not Advised rank)
+ i7 8700 + Prime95 + XMPed DDR4 3000 (1.35V) + various heatsinks

CPU Temperature:
Noctua NH-L9X65: 96 (within 1 minute)
Noctua NH-C14 Dual Fan: 75-81 (within 30 minutes)
Thermalright AXP-200: 88-93 (within 5 minutes)

VRM Temperature: 88 (within 5 minutes)

Power consumption:
Core Temp: 117W
Power meter on the AC: 190W (incl. MB RAM SSD and UHD630's power consumption I think)

Conclusion: Not recommended to buy this motherboard for 8700(K)


----------



## F-man4

Icanthelplt90 said:


> So I haven't bought it yet but am planning on it soon. I have some Noctua 40x20 and 40x10 fans and was planning on using them to cool the vrms possibly. I am hoping to not use the I/O shield and have one exhausting out the back in the location i have marked in red. I am hoping to not have to desolder the USB ports like I've done before. Can anyone with that board measure the areas I've marked in red?
> 
> I'm hoping that maybe the 10mm fan can squeeze between the ports and the heatsink. I am planning on doing a custom loop the CPU and GPU with a PSU in the top of the case drawing air from in the case. If you guys don't think its necessary (vrm fan) then i guess i don't need measurements lol


This is probably unavailable because Noctua A4x10 FLX can't even squeeze between my Z370N-WIFI's ports and VRM heatsink which is wider than yours.
Personally I think you may have to desolder the two USB 3.0 ports near the Type-C port on the left.


----------



## Asus11

AlphaC said:


> @ Icanthelplt90 : there's a heatpipe connecting the PCH to the VRM heatsink
> 
> As long as you have airflow over the board you should be okay , assuming you aren't encoding video or whatnot.
> 
> ----
> 
> @ Asus11, I don't know if the Z370I Gaming Pro Carbon is worth buying since it seems to suffer the same lack of fin area and also uses weaker mosfets than the 370 Fatal1ty ITX.
> 
> Tom's hardware and bittech had decent results for it but default power limits were supposedly ~ 130W. Chiphell review: https://www.chiphell.com/portal.php?mod=view&aid=19322&page=3 , hkepc review https://www.hkepc.com/16195/抵玩_Z370_ITX_細板_MSI_Z370I_Gaming_Pro_CARBON_AC
> 
> Per the hkepc review it's using QM3816 from Ubiq , a part which responds okay to airflow on the VRM heatsinks. It'll probably top out around 110-120A at 1.4V (~170W) before becoming toasty.
> 
> Of course if you think an i5 on Cinebench is a stress test , it can do 5.3GHz per this guy on youtube (
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dS73t-0v7-Y
> 
> 
> )
> 
> Maybe someone who has purchased the board can chime in.
> 
> ----
> 
> @ diksadu2a , if the Z370-A is that cheap (it's typically $160-170) I'd go for it with an AVX offset and airflow so long as you don't need to use x265 AVX2, otherwise the Gaming 7 seems pretty affordable in your situation.


thanks, im going to give the MSI a try sometimes the underdog can perform admirably.. we will see 

I will report back


----------



## weyburn

I'm looking at buying a 8700k for gaming, i do want to overclock, but i don't want to spend $250+ for a motherboard that'll barely clock better than a $150 motherboard lol.

that being said, anyone have any suggestions on a motherboard in the $150-$200 range? thanks.



also, i won't buy it for another month, should I wait for z390?(i don't know anything about z390, trying to figure that out now) i'm trying to figure out the benefits of waiting but maybe someone here could give me some quick help too


----------



## gammagoat

weyburn said:


> I'm looking at buying a 8700k for gaming, i do want to overclock, but i don't want to spend $250+ for a motherboard that'll barely clock better than a $150 motherboard lol.
> 
> that being said, anyone have any suggestions on a motherboard in the $150-$200 range? thanks.
> 
> 
> 
> also, i won't buy it for another month, should I wait for z390?(i don't know anything about z390, trying to figure that out now) i'm trying to figure out the benefits of waiting but maybe someone here could give me some quick help too


I have the Hero X, not happy considering what it cost. If I had a do over I'd get the Taichi.


----------



## wingman99

weyburn said:


> I'm looking at buying a 8700k for gaming, i do want to overclock, but i don't want to spend $250+ for a motherboard that'll barely clock better than a $150 motherboard lol.
> 
> that being said, anyone have any suggestions on a motherboard in the $150-$200 range? thanks.
> 
> 
> 
> also, i won't buy it for another month, should I wait for z390?(i don't know anything about z390, trying to figure that out now) i'm trying to figure out the benefits of waiting but maybe someone here could give me some quick help too


The rumor is the Z390 will support 8 core processors. Overclocking for gaming I would just purchase $150 motherboard with the features you want. They overclock the same for gaming, the determining factor for a better board is the watts they will be using all the time and gaming does not use much. Folks here like ASRock better than ASUS.


----------



## alanthecelt

For information purposes
Gigabyte Auros 5, 8700k @ 5ghz and 1.36v (1.4 peaks) 
EK Monoblock
Under stress testing the highest i have seen the VRM sensor report is 76 degrees, and that's over time once the loop has warmed, thats with the supplied ek thermal pasa nad an aftermarket IHS (just putting that in there in case there are different interface heights involved)


----------



## aliquiswe

For that price point with ASUS Z370-A Prime or Z370-F Strix if discounted likely offer about the same.


----------



## asdkj1740

how to controll fan speed for the controller intel IT8686E?? speedfan seems to be not suportting this controller...
any handy software recommandation?


----------



## GAN77

Hi guys!
I reviewed the VRM on my X CODE.
Sori for the quality of the photo.
VRM is similar X Formula.

https://forums.overclockers.ru/viewtopic.php?p=15436125#p15436125


----------



## alanthecelt

to my knowledge, bios or gigabyte siv


----------



## br0da

GAN77 said:


> Hi guys!
> I reviewed the VRM on my X CODE.
> Sori for the quality of the photo.
> VRM is similar X Formula.
> 
> https://forums.overclockers.ru/viewtopic.php?p=15436125#p15436125


Thanks for sharing! The quality of your photos is pretty good. 
I'm missing the +rep-Button with the new software around here...


----------



## asdkj1740

alanthecelt said:


> to my knowledge, bios or gigabyte siv


wanted to tweak those fans speed in windows.
yeah i just download the gigiabyte siv, and it doesnt work...i cant click those tags on the top....i dont know why, cant open the tag of smart fan...


really hate intel super io.... speedfan only supports nuvoton...


----------



## asdkj1740

would like to clarify the gigabyte vrm cooling problems/faults/bad qc according to my ultra gaming 2.0:

1. the default mounting pressure of the vrm heainks is sure not enough, the imprints on the stock thermal pad is not significant enough.
2. the screws can be tighened a bit more resulting in better contact.
3. stock pads suck, really suck, and they are 1mm thick, just like the washers on the screw.
4. changing the third party 1.5mm thermal pads, 20c drops on vrm temp and power throttling is gone totally.

testing above findings inside a case with top exhaust fan above the vrm heatink. d15s with 2*a15pwm 1500rpm on a delidded 8700k at 1.26v 5ghz running prime95 v29 small ftt.


i personally do not recommand breaking the washers especially on those entry gigabyte z370 (with push pin design) below ultra gaming like hd3p, those washers on these z370 from gigabyte cant be separated without cutting them off.
a easier way to solve the overheat problem is to buy some good 1.5mm thick thermal pads to replace the stock 1mm pads.
you have to make sure the whole length of the vrm heatsinks are covered by thermal pads(from one end of washers to another end of washer), otherwise the mounting pressure would not be even resuling in the motherboard being seriously bended. in other words, dont just cover only those mosfets!!!! you have to cut out the same size of the stock pad and then replace the stock pad!!!!


some discussion about gigabyte z370 vrm heatsink mounting pressure problem:
https://www.reddit.com/r/intel/comments/7dz5qy/gigabyte_z370_aorus_gaming_7_high_vrm_temps/
https://www.reddit.com/r/intel/comments/7dz5qy/gigabyte_z370_aorus_gaming_7_high_vrm_temps/dq5dsfp/


----------



## wingman99

asdkj1740 said:


> would like to clarify the gigabyte vrm cooling problems/faults/bad qc according to my ultra gaming 2.0:
> 
> 1. the default mounting pressure of the vrm heainks is sure not enough, the imprints on the stock thermal pad is not significant enough.
> 2. the screws can be tighened a bit more resulting in better contact.
> 3. stock pads suck, really suck, and they are 1mm thick, just like the washers on the screw.
> 4. changing the third party 1.5mm thermal pads, 20c drops on vrm temp and power throttling is gone totally.
> 
> testing above findings inside a case with top exhaust fan above the vrm heatink. d15s with 2*a15pwm 1500rpm on a delidded 8700k at 1.26v 5ghz running prime95 v29 small ftt.
> 
> 
> i personally do not recommand breaking the washers especially on those entry gigabyte z370 (with push pin design) below ultra gaming like hd3p, those washers on these z370 from gigabyte cant be separated without cutting them off.
> a easier way to solve the overheat problem is to buy some good 1.5mm thick thermal pads to replace the stock 1mm pads.
> you have to make sure the whole length of the vrm heatsinks are covered by thermal pads(from one end of washers to another end of washer), otherwise the mounting pressure would not be even resuling in the motherboard being seriously bended. in other words, dont just cover only those mosfets!!!! you have to cut out the same size of the stock pad and then replace the stock pad!!!!
> 
> 
> some discussion about gigabyte z370 vrm heatsink mounting pressure problem:
> https://www.reddit.com/r/intel/comments/7dz5qy/gigabyte_z370_aorus_gaming_7_high_vrm_temps/
> https://www.reddit.com/r/intel/comments/7dz5qy/gigabyte_z370_aorus_gaming_7_high_vrm_temps/dq5dsfp/
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HKeGOkJoiIA


What thermal pad did you use?


----------



## AlphaC

asdkj1740 , interesting result. Would you mind letting us know where you are buying your boards from?

hardwareluxx obtained 55°C on their Ultra Gaming 2.0 but that may just be the VRM heatsink: https://www.hardwareluxx.de/index.p...m-kurztest-besser-mit-elf-spulen.html?start=2


> The two VRM coolers became noticeably warm during Prime95's run, but never tended to overheat. We measured a temperature of about 55 ° C. Of course, the voltage transformers themselves are much hotter. Since we could not detect throttling, everything was in the green.


Also regarding Tom's hardware review of Extreme4: I'm trying to figure out why there are widely different power consumption numbers for the boards, I think that Tom's hardware might have left the power limits to defaults : it looks as though Asrock has a 200W power limit while others are using 150W or so.
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews...intel-coffee-lake-atx-motherboard,5424-4.html


----------



## asdkj1740

wingman99 said:


> What thermal pad did you use?


LAIRD T-FLEX 760, rated at 5W/mK.


----------



## asdkj1740

hardwareluxx's result is strange to me. i guess they were running prime 95 blend preset instead of small ftts preset.
on my setup running small ftts (v29.4) results in cpu=80c/170w (vrm mos ~75c), while running blend preset is just <60c/100w (vrm mos <60c).

or hardwareluxx was measuring the temperature from the top surface of the heatsink by some infrared thermometer.
even on the back pcb of my ultra gaming z370, my infrared thermometer reports 65c on the back of the pcb.


adding small vrm fan on gigabyte z370 may not be that effective, because i used to add a noctua r8 1800rpm fan (80mm) on top of the vcore heatsink. it was useless at all, as the reasons i have mentioned above. it may help the vrm temp to rise in a lower speed, but you would end up being throttling for sure even the vcore is <1.3v.

with stock pad and stock mounting pressure of the vrm, even if you put a fan on top of the vrm heatsink and adding small heatsinks on the back of the pcb, the cpu package power first rises up to ~170w (default max current limit on bios is 160a), then once the vrm temp hits 80c the cpu power will drop ~30w to ~140w, and then when the vrm temp hits 90c or above, the cpu power will seriously drop to 110w. 

airflow to vrm is useless, given the fact that vrm has poor contact with the vrm heatsink and poor stock pad in between.

























dont mess with what i did above, just change to pad, go buy some 3w/mk rated or above pads with 1.5mm thickness.

the ~75c vrm temp with 170w cpu power i got now does not have that vrm 80mm fan anymore, i just changed the pads, with all those small heatsinks attached on the back of the pcb. i also removed the third fan of the cpu cooler, and put back the rear exhaust fan inside the case. i think adding 80mm fan blowing to the vrm heatsink now would have further drop on vrm temp but i am already tired to test it out on this stupid board (gigabyte stupid dual bios design is ******* nonsense, when your oc settings is too aggressive for the cpu and motherboard to handle, the back bios would automatically and sliently flash to the main bios, then you would get the old bios and you need to flash the new one again, again and again).

this borad is not bad at all once you change the vrm thermal pad, my ambient temp here is 26c.


----------



## wingman99

asdkj1740 said:


> (gigabyte stupid dual bios design is ******* nonsense, when your oc settings is too aggressive for the cpu and motherboard to handle, the back bios would automatically and sliently flash to the main bios, then you would get the old bios and you need to flash the new one again, again and again).


When I flash my Gigabyte motherboard it does the primary first then backup BIOS. So when I have a problem the backup BIOS is the same as Primary. Maybe there is something wrong with your BIOS backup?


----------



## asdkj1740

wingman99 said:


> When I flash my Gigabyte motherboard it does the primary first then backup BIOS. So when I have a problem the backup BIOS is the same as Primary. Maybe there is something wrong with your BIOS backup?


which one is your z370 gigiabyte? my ultra gaming 2.0 comes with f1 bios and the latest one is f2. i flashed f2 to the mobo, and i tried oc and failed, then the bios got flashed back to f1. so i think the backup bios was functioning automatically.
how to flash the back up bios to f2 from f1?


----------



## wingman99

asdkj1740 said:


> which one is your z370 gigiabyte? my ultra gaming 2.0 comes with f1 bios and the latest one is f2. i flashed f2 to the mobo, and i tried oc and failed, then the bios got flashed back to f1. so i think the backup bios was functioning automatically.
> how to flash the back up bios to f2 from f1?


When I flash it says flashing primary BIOS then after that it says flashing backup BIOS. I have Z170 HD3 and I don't think they changed things on the Z370s, I will check with Gigabyte tomorrow.


----------



## wingman99

asdkj1740 said:


> which one is your z370 gigiabyte? my ultra gaming 2.0 comes with f1 bios and the latest one is f2. i flashed f2 to the mobo, and i tried oc and failed, then the bios got flashed back to f1. so i think the backup bios was functioning automatically.
> how to flash the back up bios to f2 from f1?


I contacted Gigabyte and the tech I spoke to did not know much about the BIOS backup. However, he did say there was a new BIOS coming.


----------



## wingman99

asdkj1740 said:


> which one is your z370 gigiabyte? my ultra gaming 2.0 comes with f1 bios and the latest one is f2. i flashed f2 to the mobo, and i tried oc and failed, then the bios got flashed back to f1. so i think the backup bios was functioning automatically.
> how to flash the back up bios to f2 from f1?


I spoke to another technician today and he said when your flashing the BIOS use intact and should say updating backup BIOS. He also said there is no reports of this problem with your motherboard.


----------



## AlphaC

https://overclockers.ru/lab/show/90...nie-materinskoj-platy-msi-z370-gaming-plus#15

At 150-160W package power , even with i5-8600K it is peaking over 110°C


----------



## wingman99

AlphaC said:


> https://overclockers.ru/lab/show/90...nie-materinskoj-platy-msi-z370-gaming-plus#15
> 
> At 150-160W package power , even with i5-8600K it is peaking over 110°C


At 5.2GHz it still has a little room left until thermal throttling at 120c


----------



## Randallel

So I have a S340 Elite case, 2 140mm fans pulling air at the front, 1 120mm pushing air at the rear. Should I push or pull a 140mm fan at the top? If I were to use pull for the top, would it help with VRM temps?


----------



## VickNet

Hello, I still have Z370 Aorus Gaming 5, and S340 Elite case, + Kraken x62, (2x140mm)
Case fans: 2x 120mm, (removes air from case)

I did this test http://funkyimg.com/i/2DEWg.png

And I wonder, is it normal to have such a VRM temperature? In battlefield 1, the maximum VRM temperature rises to 80°C (because there is a need for it from the processor) (in other games less degrees)
Those who own Aorus Gaming 5, what temperature do you have? 

In idle 46°C VRM, PCH 52°C (in gaming, VRM 80c+/- PCH 55-60c)

The thing they do, at the computer, the VRM reaches 80+ 
at 100 degrees does not reach...

I tried prime95, I was 115-120 degrees ... it's ok, is not it? what are you saying? I want to change thermal pads, https://www.amazon.com/Fujipoly-mod-smart-Extreme-Thermal/dp/B00ZSJQX0E/
must help something...

On other models of z370, what grades do you have?

Of course, I do not sit every day to do tests, to get to 120 degrees, but normally games, some video encod, and other load, it's all normal, there's nothing terrible...

Thanks for reply


----------



## Asus11

very happy with the Z370 carbon ITX, to me to seems a lot more stable than the Asrock ever was i.e more stable in OS etc also only tried a 5.0 ghz overclock @ 1.275v which is nothing really

will push it to max but wanted to ask what are the go-to stress tests now days? Im used to using asus realbench x264 but is there better ones out there? & for how long 

will try to get 5.2 -2 avx or better if I can


----------



## wingman99

VickNet said:


> Hello, I still have Z370 Aorus Gaming 5, and S340 Elite case, + Kraken x62, (2x140mm)
> Case fans: 2x 120mm, (removes air from case)
> 
> I did this test http://funkyimg.com/i/2DEWg.png
> 
> And I wonder, is it normal to have such a VRM temperature? In battlefield 1, the maximum VRM temperature rises to 80°C (because there is a need for it from the processor) (in other games less degrees)
> Those who own Aorus Gaming 5, what temperature do you have?
> 
> In idle 46°C VRM, PCH 52°C (in gaming, VRM 80c+/- PCH 55-60c)
> 
> The thing they do, at the computer, the VRM reaches 80+
> at 100 degrees does not reach...
> 
> I tried prime95, I was 115-120 degrees ... it's ok, is not it? what are you saying? I want to change thermal pads, https://www.amazon.com/Fujipoly-mod-smart-Extreme-Thermal/dp/B00ZSJQX0E/
> must help something...
> 
> On other models of z370, what grades do you have?
> 
> Of course, I do not sit every day to do tests, to get to 120 degrees, but normally games, some video encod, and other load, it's all normal, there's nothing terrible...
> 
> Thanks for reply


I would not worry VRM TJmax is 150c so 115-120c is fine.


----------



## F-man4

I think there will be no Z370 ITX boards better than ASUS Z170 Maximus VIII Impact in VRM if modded for 8700/K successfully.


----------



## VickNet

wingman99 said:


> I would not worry VRM TJmax is 150c so 115-120c is fine.


at the Gigabyte MOSfet, they work up to 150c (that's the maximum) so they said?


----------



## asdkj1740

VickNet said:


> at the Gigabyte MOSfet, they work up to 150c (that's the maximum) so they said?


mosfet spec is set by its manufacturer.
motherboard manufacturer can tweak down the mosfet tj max further.
just like gigabyte ultra gaming 2.0 z370, when the vrm reach ~90c, power throttling is already happened.

its safe for vrm<150c, but its suck in terms of performance subjected to throttlings.


gpu/mobo manufactures tend to say vrm is running within spec.
that spec is referring to vrm manufacture only. gpu/mobo manufactures wont tell you they has built in protection that cut the power way before the vrm tj max set by vrm manufacture is reached. gpu/mobo performance will be afftected when built in protection is reahced.


----------



## VickNet

asdkj1740 said:


> mosfet spec is set by its manufacturer.
> motherboard manufacturer can tweak down the mosfet tj max further.
> just like gigabyte ultra gaming 2.0 z370, when the vrm reach ~90c, power throttling is already happened.
> 
> its safe for vrm<150c, but its suck in terms of performance subjected to throttlings.
> 
> 
> gpu/mobo manufactures tend to say vrm is running within spec.
> that spec is referring to vrm manufacture only. gpu/mobo manufactures wont tell you they has built in protection that cut the power way before the vrm tj max set by vrm manufacture is reached. gpu/mobo performance will be afftected when built in protection is reahced.


but do I understand that it's normal? where can I see this information about Aorus Gaming 5

thx for reply


----------



## Koniakki

Hey guys I tried looking up the thread but for the life of me, the forum searching is busted as it seems. Or something is wrong on my end. 

I had to set it to 100 posts per page and use a auto pager extension just to search for what I was looking for. I gave up after 700 posts. lol


So the thing is, that a seriously good deal on a Asus APEX came by and honestly it's pretty tempting.

The Extreme4 was the only "good" board available to get when I got my 8700k and I must say, it been a champ so far.

What do you guys think of changing it to the APEX? It's a bit a subjective I understand, but I would love to hear a few opinions on it.

Ram is 16GB TridentZ 4266 C19(GTA).


----------



## Asus11

So far ive managed 5.2 1.39v 0 AVX 1 hour stable on realbench stress test stressing half the ram (16gb) on the Z370 Carbon ITX will try 5.3 when Im bored

77c max core 137W max total CPU Package Power


----------



## elmor

wingman99 said:


> I would not worry VRM TJmax is 150c so 115-120c is fine.


However the reported temperature is from a thermistor placed on the PCB, the MOSFET junction temperature will be higher by approximately 5-10*C. 

The maximum rated operating temperature is 150*C, but it's not specified for which duration of time. Lifetime is severely impacted by operation at high temperatures. Excellent documentation by Alpha & Omega here http://www.aosmd.com/media/reliability-handbook.pdf . Their example in 3.1.1 shows that running a MOSFET at 150*C for 1000 hours (0.11 years) has the same expected lifetime as a MOSFET running at 55*C for 21.6 years. 

Thermistor picture courtesy of Tweaktown https://www.tweaktown.com/reviews/8460/gigabyte-z370-aorus-gaming-5-motherboard-review/index3.html


----------



## encrypted11

elmor said:


> However the reported temperature is from a thermistor placed on the PCB, the MOSFET junction temperature will be higher by approximately 5-10*C.
> 
> The maximum rated operating temperature is 150*C, but it's not specified for which duration of time. Lifetime is severely impacted by operation at high temperatures. Excellent documentation by Alpha & Omega here http://www.aosmd.com/media/reliability-handbook.pdf . Their example in 3.1.1 shows that running a MOSFET at 150*C for 1000 hours (0.11 years) has the same expected lifetime as a MOSFET running at 55*C for 21.6 years.
> 
> Thermistor picture courtesy of Tweaktown https://www.tweaktown.com/reviews/8460/gigabyte-z370-aorus-gaming-5-motherboard-review/index3.html


Will a Z390 ASUS Maximus X Impact exist?


----------



## asdkj1740

VickNet said:


> but do I understand that it's normal? where can I see this information about Aorus Gaming 5
> 
> thx for reply


115-120 degrees is definitely not "safe" and not normal. try to tigthen the vrm screws on the back of the pcb more, or even consider replacing the stock pad with thicker and better pads.
if you have a infrared thermometer gun, check the temps on the back of the pcb behind the vrm.


----------



## asdkj1740

Asus11 said:


> So far ive managed 5.2 1.39v 0 AVX 1 hour stable on realbench stress test stressing half the ram (16gb) on the Z370 Carbon ITX will try 5.3 when Im bored
> 
> 77c max core 137W max total CPU Package Power


5.2g 1.39v for 137w only.....?
you better check if there are some performance drops in gaming/benchmarking....


----------



## VickNet

asdkj1740 said:


> 115-120 degrees is definitely not "safe" and not normal. try to tigthen the vrm screws on the back of the pcb more, or even consider replacing the stock pad with thicker and better pads.
> if you have a infrared thermometer gun, check the temps on the back of the pcb behind the vrm.


Clearly, but that's just the stress test, but in general, 80C maximum, I think it's ok, right?
but would I want to change the thermal pad, which I advise? I saw this model: https://www.amazon.com/Fujipoly-mod-smart-Extreme-Thermal/dp/B00ZSJQX0E/

but they are a bit thicker: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00MQ0ITXW/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 (or buy 17.0 W/mK?)

I do not know exactly what to do, what do you say?
the thicker it is, the better? if it's thicker, it'll get harder to remove the heat, right?

I have tigthen the vrm screws, but it does not help at all, it needs to be tight, so it's better with mossfet.

Interestingly, at other z370, are there such problems?
or is this not a problem? just in real you do not touch 120C ... just in stress tests

Thanks.


----------



## asdkj1740

VickNet said:


> Clearly, but that's just the stress test, but in general, 80C maximum, I think it's ok, right?
> but would I want to change the thermal pad, which I advise? I saw this model: https://www.amazon.com/Fujipoly-mod-smart-Extreme-Thermal/dp/B00ZSJQX0E/
> 
> but they are a bit thicker: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00MQ0ITXW/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 (or buy 17.0 W/mK?)
> 
> I do not know exactly what to do, what do you say?
> the thicker it is, the better? if it's thicker, it'll get harder to remove the heat, right?
> 
> I have tigthen the vrm screws, but it does not help at all, it needs to be tight, so it's better with mossfet.
> 
> Interestingly, at other z370, are there such problems?
> or is this not a problem? just in real you do not touch 120C ... just in stress tests
> 
> Thanks.


i can only speak for my ultra gaming2.0, my ultra gaming 2.0 vrm temp reported by hwinfo64 under gaming is just 60~70c after changing to thicker and stronger pad with additional heatsinks attached to the back side of the vrm.
80c is fine on gaming, if it is reported accurately and precisely. 
elmor just shows us the thermal sensor on gigabyte z370 is far away from the mosfets...so i dont wieght too much on that sensor read by hwinfo now... i would rather go for infrared thermometer gun to check the back side temp of the vrm.

you can only try some thicker pad to see whether your gaming 5 is sufferring from the mounting pressure problem as well as the poor stock pad problem and not thick enough stock pad problem. 

something like 4w~5w/mk should be enough, because the vrm on gaming 5 or below are just made of "plastic"(i guess) without metal on the surface. 17w/mk is insane and expensive. if you can return the gaming 5 you should do it and get a gaming 7 instead of buying so expensive thermal pads for gaming 5 pads' replacement.

i dont know how thick is the stock pad on gaming5, you can measure it by yourself, and go buy some pads with 0.05mm thicker.


or you can put a small fan on top of the vrm heatsink, although according to my experience the vrm fan wont help much if the mounting pressure sucks and perform too poorer.


----------



## VickNet

asdkj1740 said:


> i can only speak for my ultra gaming2.0, my ultra gaming 2.0 vrm temp reported by hwinfo64 under gaming is just 60~70c after changing to thicker and stronger pad with additional heatsinks attached to the back side of the vrm.
> 80c is fine on gaming, if it is reported accurately and precisely.
> elmor just shows us the thermal sensor on gigabyte z370 is far away from the mosfets...so i dont wieght too much on that sensor read by hwinfo now... i would rather go for infrared thermometer gun to check the back side temp of the vrm.
> 
> you can only try some thicker pad to see whether your gaming 5 is sufferring from the mounting pressure problem as well as the poor stock pad problem and not thick enough stock pad problem.
> 
> something like 4w~5w/mk should be enough, because the vrm on gaming 5 or below are just made by "plastic"(i guess) without metal on the surface. 17w/mk is insane and expensive. if you can return the gaming 5 you should do it and get a gaming 7 instead of buying so expensive thermal pads for gaming 5 pads' replacement.
> 
> i dont know how thick is the stock pad on gaming5, you can measure it by yourself, and go buy some pads with 0.05mm thicker.
> 
> 
> or you can put a small fan on top of the vrm heatsink, although according to my experience the vrm fan wont help much if the mounting pressure sucks and perform too poorer.


Thanks ... I'm going to buy thicker pads, by the way, to me it's in OC 4.9Ghz, 1.35V
Gaming 7 is still the problem, but to my knowledge, not everyone has problems with VRM temps,
but from another point of view, I do not think that's a problem ... but anyway I'll change the pad ...


----------



## HyperC

I haven't even hit 80c on my gaming 7


----------



## asdkj1740

playing pubg for a hour, the vrm temp reported by hwinfo64 is 55c only, on my ultra gaming2.0


----------



## wingman99

VickNet said:


> Clearly, but that's just the stress test, but in general, 80C maximum, I think it's ok, right?
> but would I want to change the thermal pad, which I advise? I saw this model: https://www.amazon.com/Fujipoly-mod-smart-Extreme-Thermal/dp/B00ZSJQX0E/
> 
> but they are a bit thicker: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00MQ0ITXW/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 (or buy 17.0 W/mK?)
> 
> I do not know exactly what to do, what do you say?
> the thicker it is, the better? if it's thicker, it'll get harder to remove the heat, right?
> 
> I have tigthen the vrm screws, but it does not help at all, it needs to be tight, so it's better with mossfet.
> 
> Interestingly, at other z370, are there such problems?
> or is this not a problem? just in real you do not touch 120C ... just in stress tests
> 
> Thanks.


TJmax is 150c for VRM MOSFET. I contacted Infineon Technologies conversed with a engineer. So long life will fallow 120c MOSFET from the % below. 



> Infineon Technologies
> Normally the reliability tests are done at Tjmax, that means device can work at Tjmax for long period. But to use part at worst case is not reasonable,
> usually about 20% margin must be considered.


----------



## VickNet

wingman99 said:


> TJmax is 150c for VRM MOSFET. I contacted Infineon Technologies conversed with a engineer. So long life will fallow 120c MOSFET from the % below.


Sorry, I do not quite understand, TJmaxx is the maximum temperature for mossfet?

In Prime 95, 115C, is it normal? 4.9Ghz, 1.35v
8700k/Aorus Gaming 5

Hard Gaming, 80c max, example: BF1

other games 65-70, +/-


----------



## VickNet

HyperC said:


> I haven't even hit 80c on my gaming 7


when did you buy the card? others complain that stress tests have 120C, example: Prime 95


----------



## AlphaC

VickNet said:


> when did you buy the card? others complain that stress tests have 120C, example: Prime 95


There's only two ways you would hit over 90°C on the Gaming 7: it's faulty (i.e. your VRM heatsink contact is not great and your VRM fan doesn't turn up after 90°C) OR your power into the CPU is absurd (over Intel's spec of 138A for 95W hexcores) such that even the VRM fan is made useless.

5GHZ avx torture , no outside airflow
http://blog.livedoor.jp/wisteriear/archives/1068298475.html



wingman99 said:


> TJmax is 150c for VRM MOSFET. I contacted Infineon Technologies conversed with a engineer. So long life will fallow 120c MOSFET from the % below.


You didn't call Apaq and ask them how safe a capacitor at 105°C is. That's what's used on Gigabyte boards less than the Ultra Gaming 2.0 , including on the UD3H. It is also believed to be used on the Asus midrange boards labeled 5K hours "MIL" per hwbattle. Alow ESR FPCAP has below 5 mΩ Equivalent series resistance (ESR) while Apaq's are around 8 mΩ max ESR.

The lower end Gigabyte boards using Onsemi mosfets have NOTHING to do with Infineon. Onsemi isn't part of Infineon. While a IR3555 Powerstage from Infineon (International rectifier) may have integrated power, current, and temperature monitoring this would not be applicable for 4C10N + 4C06N. 

http://www.onsemi.com/PowerSolutions/product.do?id=NVTFS4C10N
http://www.onsemi.com/PowerSolutions/product.do?id=NVTFS4C06N

ISL6625A, not present below UD3H: https://www.intersil.com/content/dam/Intersil/documents/isl6/isl6625a.pdf

Also many boards throttle at 105°C to 110°C.

--------

From Onsemi's simulator , for a Ultra Gaming 2.0 or Gaming 5 (no capacitor specs other than 560uH and 40nH = 0.4uH for inductor) assuming gate drive is 5V:







^ this includes one 560uH capacitor and one R40 inductor (I've tried doubling the inductor + capacitor and ended up with close to the same graph)

Intel spec amperage is 138A for all CPU phases , which is just under 35A per phase with 4 phases.

At 4 PWM phases with each phase (2 high side mosfets + 2 low side mosfets in this case) at 23 A it is roughly 130W to CPU.









---------

review of other low end boards this week
https://www.hkepc.com/16364/入門級_Z370_電競大板_MSI_Z370_Gaming_Plus_主機板
http://www.hw-journal.de/testberichte/mainboards/3295-msi-z370-pc-pro-test?showall=&start=3

GBT Z370P D3 throttling
https://www.benchmark.rs/artikal/test_gigabyte_z370p_d3-4534



> The result is an inevitable decline in performance because whenever the temperature of the VRM reached the 112°C threshold, the data from the thermal probe would initiate the protection system of the board, would instantly crash the CPU chip from 5GHz to 800MHz to give the VRM unit a vent. Then the user would be left wondering because the CPU at 5GHz gives it poor performance compared to the factory values. Add to all the stated and factor of the enclosed case as an additional factor of the warm, summer ambient, and the situation becomes even more unfavorable as the processors will enter the process of "throttle"


----------



## VickNet

Thx to all,

And after all, what do you think about it z370 Aorus Gaming5?

as I said earlier, I will change thermal pads...


----------



## asdkj1740

VickNet said:


> Thx to all,
> 
> And after all, what do you think about it z370 Aorus Gaming5?
> 
> as I said earlier, I will change thermal pads...


z370p d3, z370 hd3p, ultra gaming2.0 ,gaming 7
all these four from gigabyte have real/practical positioning.


----------



## VickNet

asdkj1740 said:


> z370p d3, z370 hd3p, ultra gaming2.0 ,gaming 7
> all these four from gigabyte have real/practical positioning.


Gaming 5, ****? )))


----------



## HyperC

VickNet said:


> when did you buy the card? others complain that stress tests have 120C, example: Prime 95


I bought it 2 weeks ago came with F2 bios if that's helps any


----------



## wingman99

VickNet said:


> at the Gigabyte MOSfet, they work up to 150c (that's the maximum) so they said?


I contacted a engineer at Infineon Technologies, they make power MOSFETS for motherboard VRMs. So Tjmax is 150c and 20% margin is 120c for long life.



> Infineon Technologies
> Normally the reliability tests are done at Tjmax, that means device can work at Tjmax for long period. But to use part at worst case is not reasonable,
> usually about 20% margin must be considered.


----------



## VickNet

wingman99 said:


> I contacted a engineer at Infineon Technologies, they make power MOSFETS for motherboard VRMs. So Tjmax is 150c and 20% margin is 120c for long life.


thanks! 
in real I do not have 120, just in the stress test, Prime, Linx, so normally, in games, generally less))


----------



## wingman99

AlphaC said:


> There's only two ways you would hit over 90°C on the Gaming 7: it's faulty (i.e. your VRM heatsink contact is not great and your VRM fan doesn't turn up after 90°C) OR your power into the CPU is absurd (over Intel's spec of 138A for 95W hexcores) such that even the VRM fan is made useless.
> 
> 5GHZ avx torture , no outside airflow
> http://blog.livedoor.jp/wisteriear/archives/1068298475.html
> 
> 
> 
> You didn't call Apaq and ask them how safe a capacitor at 105°C is. That's what's used on Gigabyte boards less than the Ultra Gaming 2.0 , including on the UD3H. It is also believed to be used on the Asus midrange boards labeled 5K hours "MIL" per hwbattle. Alow ESR FPCAP has below 5 mΩ Equivalent series resistance (ESR) while Apaq's are around 8 mΩ max ESR.
> 
> The lower end Gigabyte boards using Onsemi mosfets have NOTHING to do with Infineon. Onsemi isn't part of Infineon. While a IR3555 Powerstage from Infineon (International rectifier) may have integrated power, current, and temperature monitoring this would not be applicable for 4C10N + 4C06N.
> 
> http://www.onsemi.com/PowerSolutions/product.do?id=NVTFS4C10N
> http://www.onsemi.com/PowerSolutions/product.do?id=NVTFS4C06N
> 
> ISL6625A, not present below UD3H: https://www.intersil.com/content/dam/Intersil/documents/isl6/isl6625a.pdf
> 
> Also many boards throttle at 105°C to 110°C.
> 
> --------
> 
> From Onsemi's simulator , for a Ultra Gaming 2.0 or Gaming 5 (no capacitor specs other than 560uH and 40nH = 0.4uH for inductor) assuming gate drive is 5V:
> View attachment 125673
> 
> ^ this includes one 560uH capacitor and one R40 inductor (I've tried doubling the inductor + capacitor and ended up with close to the same graph)
> 
> Intel spec amperage is 138A for all CPU phases , which is just under 35A per phase with 4 phases.
> 
> At 4 PWM phases with each phase (2 high side mosfets + 2 low side mosfets in this case) at 23 A it is roughly 130W to CPU.
> View attachment 125689
> 
> 
> 
> ---------
> 
> review of other low end boards this week
> https://www.hkepc.com/16364/入門級_Z370_電競大板_MSI_Z370_Gaming_Plus_主機板
> http://www.hw-journal.de/testberichte/mainboards/3295-msi-z370-pc-pro-test?showall=&start=3
> 
> GBT Z370P D3 throttling
> https://www.benchmark.rs/artikal/test_gigabyte_z370p_d3-4534


With Infineon Technologies I went through a lot of steps to converse with a engineer it took me two days. Tell me what to ask Onsemi enginer and I will try and find out the information on long life from Tjmax. Forum-level' conjecture on longevity I don't like, that is why I communicate with engineers that make the Powrstage mosfets and high side mosfets and low side mosfets.

Also my power VRM mosfet capacitors run 60c with the power VRM Mosfet at 100c. 

I spoke to two Gigabyte technical support staff and they both said not to worry about overclocking on the Z370s they have safety's built in and they have no reports of VRM failures and they sell by the millions. I know that is not much information. However if there was a problem with the mid rage low end Z370 they would know it, they all work with folks 8 hours a day all over the world.


----------



## wingman99

Forum error


----------



## wingman99

Forum error.


----------



## wingman99

VickNet said:


> thanks!
> in real I do not have 120, just in the stress test, Prime, Linx, so normally, in games, generally less))


Great that will be even longer life for you and they have a 3 year warranty with Gigabyte even with overclocking.


----------



## weyburn

I asked this on another thread, but maybe someone will have other input.

I'm looking at getting either the Asus Maximus x Hero or the Aorus Gaming 7.

Any opinions between the two boards? atm i'm leaning towards the asus.


----------



## AlphaC

wingman99 said:


> With Infineon Technologies I went through a lot of steps to converse with a engineer it took me two days. Tell me what to ask Onsemi enginer and I will try and find out the information on long life from Tjmax. Forum-level' conjecture on longevity I don't like, that is why I communicate with engineers that make the Powrstage mosfets and high side mosfets and low side mosfets.
> 
> Also my power VRM mosfet capacitors run 60c with the power VRM Mosfet at 100c.
> 
> I spoke to two Gigabyte technical support staff and they both said not to worry about overclocking on the Z370s they have safety's built in and they have no reports of VRM failures and they sell by the millions. I know that is not much information. However if there was a problem with the mid rage low end Z370 they would know it, they all work with folks 8 hours a day all over the world.


Your test case doesn't speak for all environments: you didn't specify the load , the long duration power limit, whether you had external airflow (people with AIOs typically have much less direct airflow), etc. Obviously if you put 300LFM+ in airflow over your board it will be cooler. Also I have no idea where you measured your temperature from and using what. Are you going to guarantee that someone with a higher humidity condition and no air conditioning in say the Philippines is going to experience that result?

Reliability isn't some crazy difficult _estimation_. It's not going to be exact science unless you have every parameter of the board including geometry & trace layout. I pointed that out to you several times (Arrhenius model is the usual), and elmor (who works for ASUS) also pointed it out to you (with graphs from somewhere else but the same equations). Typically boards are simulated in Flotherm / ANSYS Icepak , design review occurs, which is before engineering validation and I'm fairly certain delid chips were not used. Motherboards sold to consumers aren't marketed as a high reliability product. In the engineering world, two days is an _extremely_ short time. For example there are medical implants that are made to last over 20 years. Do you know that space probes have exceeded 30 years of life and still operate?

Onsemi 4C06N and 4C10N don't have built in thermal monitoring as elmor noted pictorially. The graph and chart I posted above a few posts ago is using the OnSemi simulator straight from the mosfet's page. I don't think any engineer is going to contradict that because _I literally just used the dropdowns_. Sure the PWM controller, and capacitors may change but the high/low side mosfets are not going to see a significant difference from that unless you change the Gate drive voltage.

Yes there's safeties built in, but if it throttles often then you won't want it for a delidded i7-8700k for say Blender Cycles or some other AVX capable application. That's the point. There's only 2 options from manufacturers to deal with a bad board: throttle or heat the board up. Remember Takata covered up their airbag defects for years even though an engineer told them it was unsafe : the cost & risk of lawsuits was weighed against the replacement. Throttling is not a lawsuit - capable complaint. Burning your house down because there are no safeties and it bypasses PSU protections, maybe is lawsuit-capable. No sane person is going to spend thousands to sue a company for a sub $200 product.

Also, you know this is the VRM thread right? Not the "buy the cheapest board for gaming for my undelidded CPU not 100% loaded" thread. If GBT didn't have a problem with overclocks do you think that a Ultra Gaming 2.0 revision would be released? Do you think that if consumers just take whatever boards manufacturers put out with the label "gaming" regardless of quality that they will strive to deliver the best performance? Do you think if they did have a problem they will tell it to some random consumer that emails them about it , especially when that can lead to a class action lawsuit? It's in their best interests to have better products if the cost to them is minimal. Why would you recommend boards that are clearly sub-par to people? I feel terrible for those people that paid in excess of $160 near launch for the midrange boards such as the Z370 Ultra Gaming 1.0, but even worse for those that fell victim to marketing such as the Z370-H STRIX which was ~$160 as well.

If you want to use a cliche car analogy it's as if you put a massive turbo on your naturally aspirated engine (say i7-8700k) without changing anything else and state "the engineers designed it to be reliable and it will be fine even if I use over 150% of the power". A prudent person would make sure their other components are capable with an adequate safety factor so they don't crash into a ditch or another vehicle. For an engine, you would feed & cool it properly (intercooler + radiator + air intake) and make sure all mounts , transmission, differential, and mechanical linkages + braking systems (bigger brakes are more unsprung weight so they are usually minimzed for production cars) are up to the task. For a CPU, you would cool it properly and deliver power to it as cleanly and efficiently as possible (which is what this thread is all about).

In short, if you have a legitimate complaint about VRM capability for AVX loads then that's fine. If you just want to claim 100°C VRMs on a cheap board is okay when the throttle point is 105°C per multiple sites then no I can't accept that without rebutting it. That's not very constructive to this thread whatsoever. You treat motherboard manufacturers as though they all are a cartel to sell you pricier boards but that's not the case : better components often cost more to use. Whether they are marking those components up quite a bit due to R&D / marketing is the question at hand , especially for lower volume products.

There's quite a few sites with boards like the Z370 K3 overclocked and working alright but they're not operating in AVX loads and we have no idea of the magnitude of throttling without a sustained test.

If you'll notice, everything I have written or charted out I have labeled _subject to change_ depending on actual results (in good faith). I even put up aggregate temperature results from multiple sources. I haven't seen any major developments on that end: other than the MSI Tomahawk everything else is pretty much confirmed. The Tomahawk has had lower temps than expected (it doesn't have the fin area of the SLI PLUS): even Steven from Tweaktown noted this. However, as the features are cut down and the pricing is higher than the SLI PLUS I just left its position where it is.

------------

More on topic:

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/asus-rog-strix-z370-e-gaming-motherboard,5458-4.html


> Our EVGA Z370 FTW review showed similar power behavior to the Strix Z370-E Gaming, yet increasing its limit to allow Prime95 small FFTs to run at a constant 4.30GHz CPU clock caused peak wattage to climb only from 129W to 148W. The Strix Z370-E Gaming went from 144W to 210W. Most of the competing boards fall somewhere in the middle.


https://www.kitguru.net/components/...s-rog-maximus-x-formula-motherboard-review/3/


> KitGuru observed peak VRM temperatures, after 10 minutes of sustained AIDA64 CPU and memory load, of 53 degrees Celsius at stock and 59 degrees Celsius at overclocked from the “ASUS EC” VRM sensor (read using HWiNFO64).
> 
> The Maximus X Formula uses a custom-packaged PWM controller marked “DIGI+ EPU ASP1405I F76G C730P”, which is most probably an IR35201 controller with 10 total phases. These phases use ten inductors, ten IR3535 drivers, ten Vishay Siliconix ZF906 MOSFETs and a number of Nichicon FPCAP Capacitors.
> There are four International Rectifier IR3599 phase doublers in use too, three for the row of six and one for the row of four. Thus the likely configuration is that the PWM controller operates as a 4+2 VRM with the four IR3599 phase doublers turning those four phases into eight for a total of 8+2. Those ten phases probably split as eight phases for the vCore and two for the iGPU.


https://www.clubedohardware.com.br/artigos/placas-mae/placa-mãe-asrock-z370-taichi-r36811/?nbcpage=6
^ Taichi with Sinopowers

EVGA Z370 MICRO (as expected it looks to use powerstages): https://elchapuzasinformatico.com/2018/03/evga-z370-micro-atx-review/#pruebas


----------



## wingman99

Forum error.


----------



## wingman99

Forum error.


----------



## wingman99

weyburn said:


> I asked this on another thread, but maybe someone will have other input.
> 
> I'm looking at getting either the Asus Maximus x Hero or the Aorus Gaming 7.
> 
> Any opinions between the two boards? atm i'm leaning towards the asus.


I have a Gigabyte Z370 HD3 and the BIOS options for overclocking is the same as Gaming 7. The Gigabyte BIOS is very intuitive compared to ASUS.


----------



## wingman99

AlphaC said:


> Your test case doesn't speak for all environments: you didn't specify the load , the long duration power limit, whether you had external airflow (people with AIOs typically have much less direct airflow), etc. Obviously if you put 300LFM+ in airflow over your board it will be cooler. Also I have no idea where you measured your temperature from and using what. Are you going to guarantee that someone with a higher humidity condition and no air conditioning in say the Philippines is going to experience that result?
> 
> Reliability isn't some crazy difficult _estimation_. It's not going to be exact science unless you have every parameter of the board including geometry & trace layout. I pointed that out to you several times (Arrhenius model is the usual), and elmor (who works for ASUS) also pointed it out to you (with graphs from somewhere else but the same equations). Typically boards are simulated in Flotherm / ANSYS Icepak , design review occurs, which is before engineering validation and I'm fairly certain delid chips were not used. Motherboards sold to consumers aren't marketed as a high reliability product. In the engineering world, two days is an _extremely_ short time. For example there are medical implants that are made to last over 20 years. Do you know that space probes have exceeded 30 years of life and still operate?
> 
> Onsemi 4C06N and 4C10N don't have built in thermal monitoring as elmor noted pictorially. The graph and chart I posted above a few posts ago is using the OnSemi simulator straight from the mosfet's page. I don't think any engineer is going to contradict that because _I literally just used the dropdowns_. Sure the PWM controller, and capacitors may change but the high/low side mosfets are not going to see a significant difference from that unless you change the Gate drive voltage.
> 
> Yes there's safeties built in, but if it throttles often then you won't want it for a delidded i7-8700k for say Blender Cycles or some other AVX capable application. That's the point. There's only 2 options from manufacturers to deal with a bad board: throttle or heat the board up. Remember Takata covered up their airbag defects for years even though an engineer told them it was unsafe : the cost & risk of lawsuits was weighed against the replacement. Throttling is not a lawsuit - capable complaint. Burning your house down because there are no safeties and it bypasses PSU protections, maybe is lawsuit-capable. No sane person is going to spend thousands to sue a company for a sub $200 product.
> 
> Also, you know this is the VRM thread right? Not the "buy the cheapest board for gaming for my undelidded CPU not 100% loaded" thread. If GBT didn't have a problem with overclocks do you think that a Ultra Gaming 2.0 revision would be released? Do you think that if consumers just take whatever boards manufacturers put out with the label "gaming" regardless of quality that they will strive to deliver the best performance? Do you think if they did have a problem they will tell it to some random consumer that emails them about it , especially when that can lead to a class action lawsuit? It's in their best interests to have better products if the cost to them is minimal. Why would you recommend boards that are clearly sub-par to people? I feel terrible for those people that paid in excess of $160 near launch for the midrange boards such as the Z370 Ultra Gaming 1.0, but even worse for those that fell victim to marketing such as the Z370-H STRIX which was ~$160 as well.
> 
> If you want to use a cliche car analogy it's as if you put a massive turbo on your naturally aspirated engine (say i7-8700k) without changing anything else and state "the engineers designed it to be reliable and it will be fine even if I use over 150% of the power". A prudent person would make sure their other components are capable with an adequate safety factor so they don't crash into a ditch or another vehicle. For an engine, you would feed & cool it properly (intercooler + radiator + air intake) and make sure all mounts , transmission, differential, and mechanical linkages + braking systems (bigger brakes are more unsprung weight so they are usually minimzed for production cars) are up to the task. For a CPU, you would cool it properly and deliver power to it as cleanly and efficiently as possible (which is what this thread is all about).
> 
> In short, if you have a legitimate complaint about VRM capability for AVX loads then that's fine. If you just want to claim 100°C VRMs on a cheap board is okay when the throttle point is 105°C per multiple sites then no I can't accept that without rebutting it. That's not very constructive to this thread whatsoever. You treat motherboard manufacturers as though they all are a cartel to sell you pricier boards but that's not the case : better components often cost more to use. Whether they are marking those components up quite a bit due to R&D / marketing is the question at hand , especially for lower volume products.
> 
> There's quite a few sites with boards like the Z370 K3 overclocked and working alright but they're not operating in AVX loads and we have no idea of the magnitude of throttling without a sustained test.
> 
> If you'll notice, everything I have written or charted out I have labeled _subject to change_ depending on actual results (in good faith). I even put up aggregate temperature results from multiple sources. I haven't seen any major developments on that end: other than the MSI Tomahawk everything else is pretty much confirmed. The Tomahawk has had lower temps than expected (it doesn't have the fin area of the SLI PLUS): even Steven from Tweaktown noted this. However, as the features are cut down and the pricing is higher than the SLI PLUS I just left its position where it is.
> 
> ------------
> 
> More on topic:
> 
> http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/asus-rog-strix-z370-e-gaming-motherboard,5458-4.html
> 
> 
> https://www.kitguru.net/components/...s-rog-maximus-x-formula-motherboard-review/3/
> 
> 
> https://www.clubedohardware.com.br/artigos/placas-mae/placa-mãe-asrock-z370-taichi-r36811/?nbcpage=6
> ^ Taichi with Sinopowers
> 
> EVGA Z370 MICRO (as expected it looks to use powerstages): https://elchapuzasinformatico.com/2018/03/evga-z370-micro-atx-review/#pruebas


der8auer shows that the Gigabyte HD3 VRM throttles at 120c and with VRM cooling it will run 5.1GHz with prime95 non AVX. The onsemi mosfets for it are Operating Junction 175c maximum. I'm just sticking to the facts. At 100c VRM and my capacitors were at 60c using a infrared thermal gun. I'm waiting for a reply from the onsemi engineer for there long life temperature tolerance.
I agree with you if you pay more most of the time you have better components and features.


----------



## encrypted11

AlphaC said:


> If you want to use a cliche car analogy it's as if you put a massive turbo on your naturally aspirated engine (say i7-8700k) without changing anything else and state "the engineers designed it to be reliable and it will be fine even if I use over 150% of the power". *A prudent person would make sure their other components are capable with an adequate safety factor so they don't crash into a ditch or another vehicle*. For an engine, you would feed & cool it properly (intercooler + radiator + air intake) and make sure all mounts , transmission, differential, and mechanical linkages + braking systems (bigger brakes are more unsprung weight so they are usually minimzed for production cars) are up to the task. For a CPU, you would cool it properly and deliver power to it as cleanly and efficiently as possible (which is what this thread is all about).


Couldn't agree more how can I rep this? 

But I'd burn diesel in a gasoline car since it fills because for teh lulz.


----------



## encrypted11

encrypted11 said:


> elmor said:
> 
> 
> 
> However the reported temperature is from a thermistor placed on the PCB, the MOSFET junction temperature will be higher by approximately 5-10*C.
> 
> The maximum rated operating temperature is 150*C, but it's not specified for which duration of time. Lifetime is severely impacted by operation at high temperatures. Excellent documentation by Alpha & Omega here http://www.aosmd.com/media/reliability-handbook.pdf . Their example in 3.1.1 shows that running a MOSFET at 150*C for 1000 hours (0.11 years) has the same expected lifetime as a MOSFET running at 55*C for 21.6 years.
> 
> Thermistor picture courtesy of Tweaktown https://www.tweaktown.com/reviews/8460/gigabyte-z370-aorus-gaming-5-motherboard-review/index3.html
> 
> 
> 
> Will a Z390 ASUS Maximus X Impact exist?
Click to expand...

Hey mate, could you say "no" at least? I could sleep better that way. 


*Types from the ASRock Fatal1ty ITX/ac computer with a 5.3GHz 8700K*


----------



## elmor

encrypted11 said:


> Hey mate, could you say "no" at least? I could sleep better that way.


no


----------



## encrypted11

Thanks for confirming, will settle for no less than an impact. 

No idea how your product development plans are, but I hope it makes a comeback some day 
I had a VIII Impact, I think it sold badly to higher paying consumers because of the wrong bet that M.2 wouldn't scale with density past drives like 950 pro 512gb vs U.2. 
Now we have 2TB pros, probably 4TB m.2 evos wouldn't be too shocking in the future.

Probably the audio section is taking up too much space, idk. But it probably can be put to better use outside of audio.


----------



## AlphaC

wingman99 said:


> der8auer shows that the Gigabyte HD3 VRM throttles at 120c and with VRM cooling it will run 5.1GHz with prime95 non AVX. The onsemi mosfets for it are Operating Junction 175c maximum. I'm just sticking to the facts. At 100c VRM and my capacitors were at 60c using a infrared thermal gun. I'm waiting for a reply from the onsemi engineer for there long life temperature tolerance.
> I agree with you if you pay more most of the time you have better components and features.
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xbLeuxIzxcA


If people are paying $300 or so for a i7-8700k, $20-40ish to delid it properly (TG Conductonaut + liquid electrical tape or Silicone RTV , delid tool if needed), $150+ for 16GB RAM 2666+MHz at today's prices , an extra $20-30 for a decent board is not a lot. It's less than 10% of the upgrade cost even if the only switch is the CPU.

Also there's features that people would want on midrange boards that aren't existent on some cheap boards such as USB 3.1 gen 2 (not the fake USB 3.1 gen 1) or an Intel LAN.

You also realize 130°C isn't safe for any FR-2 or FR-4 PCB right? FR-4 has a T_g of 130° C (266° F) and a maximum operating temperature of 110° C (230° F). T_g is glass transition temperature (basically melting of epoxy resin).

Did you even read the link where the Z370P D3 is throttling at 109°C sensor temp?

https://www.benchmark.rs/artikal/test_gigabyte_z370p_d3-4534

---------------

In other news:

Z370-A Vishay variant http://www.hardwaresecrets.com/asus-prime-z370-a-motherboard/5/


----------



## wingman99

AlphaC said:


> If people are paying $300 or so for a i7-8700k, $20-40ish to delid it properly (TG Conductonaut + liquid electrical tape or Silicone RTV , delid tool if needed), $150+ for 16GB RAM 2666+MHz at today's prices , an extra $20-30 for a decent board is not a lot. It's less than 10% of the upgrade cost even if the only switch is the CPU.
> 
> Also there's features that people would want on midrange boards that aren't existent on some cheap boards such as USB 3.1 gen 2 (not the fake USB 3.1 gen 1) or an Intel LAN.
> 
> You also realize 130°C isn't safe for any FR-2 or FR-4 PCB right? FR-4 has a T_g of 130° C (266° F) and a maximum operating temperature of 110° C (230° F). T_g is glass transition temperature (basically melting of epoxy resin).
> 
> Did you even read the link where the Z370P D3 is throttling at 109°C sensor temp?
> 
> https://www.benchmark.rs/artikal/test_gigabyte_z370p_d3-4534
> 
> ---------------
> 
> In other news:
> 
> Z370-A Vishay variant http://www.hardwaresecrets.com/asus-prime-z370-a-motherboard/5/


I agree that the Gigabyte low end and mid range VRM's are not as good as the other manufactures for mosfet RDS and cooling. And I have not suggested low and mid range Gigabyte motherboards because you say the VRM components are not as high quality as the other manufactures, also they will not run the 150+ watts when a person will use that kind of power.

The strength of epoxy adhesives is degraded at temperatures above 177 °C. Also the Onsemi engineer sent me a e-mail for the Power MOSFETs parts used on the low and mid range Gigabyte motherboards. 175cTjmax MTBF 1,831,137 Hours TJ 120c MTBF 23,124,834 Hours. The Gigabyte Z370 HD3 VRM thermal throttles 120c according to der8auer.

http://www.onsemi.com/PowerSolutions/reliability.do?device=NVTFS4C10NTAG


----------



## AlphaC

Only "High T_G" FR-4 PCBs can withstand that sort of temperature , not regular FR-4.


----------



## sonic2911

For a decent OC, the z370 taichi or aorus gaming 7, which is better for me?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## VickNet

wingman99 said:


> I agree that the Gigabyte low end and mid range VRM's are not as good as the other manufactures for mosfet RDS and cooling. And I have not suggested low and mid range Gigabyte motherboards because you say the VRM components are not as high quality as the other manufactures, also they will not run the 150+ watts when a person will use that kind of power.
> 
> The strength of epoxy adhesives is degraded at temperatures above 177 °C. Also the Onsemi engineer sent me a e-mail for the Power MOSFETs parts used on the low and mid range Gigabyte motherboards. 175cTjmax MTBF 1,831,137 Hours TJ 120c MTBF 23,124,834 Hours. The Gigabyte Z370 HD3 VRM thermal throttles 120c according to der8auer.
> 
> http://www.onsemi.com/PowerSolutions/reliability.do?device=NVTFS4C10NTAG


At Aorus Gaming 5, so?


----------



## wingman99

wingman99 said:


> I agree that the Gigabyte low end and mid range VRM's are not as good as the other manufactures for mosfet RDS and cooling. And I have not suggested low and mid range Gigabyte motherboards because you say the VRM components are not as high quality as the other manufactures, also they will not run the 150+ watts when a person will use that kind of power.
> 
> The strength of epoxy adhesives is degraded at temperatures above 177 °C. Also the Onsemi engineer sent me a e-mail for the Power MOSFETs parts used on the low and mid range Gigabyte motherboards. 175cTjmax MTBF 1,831,137 Hours TJ 120c MTBF 23,124,834 Hours. The Gigabyte Z370 HD3 VRM thermal throttles 120c according to der8auer.
> 
> http://www.onsemi.com/PowerSolutions/reliability.do?device=NVTFS4C10NTAG





VickNet said:


> At Aorus Gaming 5, so?


The Gaming 5 has a VRM section that will overclock with prime95 past low and mid-range Gigabyte motherboards.


----------



## VickNet

wingman99 said:


> The Gaming 5 has a VRM section that will overclock with prime95 past low and mid-range Gigabyte motherboards.


Anyway, I think Gaming 5 is a pretty good motherboard... problems are not with VRM temperature, Even though I had 115C in Prime 95, I did not have throttling, everything was stable 4.9-5.0 Ghz.

I think I did not make a bad choice.


why GBT is all red? I do not understand

http://www.overclock.net/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=99745


----------



## wingman99

VickNet said:


> Anyway, I think Gaming 5 is a pretty good motherboard... problems are not with VRM temperature, Even though I had 115C in Prime 95, I did not have throttling, everything was stable 4.9-5.0 Ghz.
> 
> I think I did not make a bad choice.
> 
> 
> why GBT is all red? I do not understand
> 
> http://www.overclock.net/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=99745


You mad a great choice. The Onsemi VRMs MOSFETS ruining at 120c will last MTTF (Mean time to failure) 23,124,834 Hours. http://www.onsemi.com/PowerSolutions/reliability.do?part=NTMFS4C10NT3G I have a Z370 HD3 and I'm thinking a few of the VRM temperature sensors are off on Gigabyte. I have been doing testing comparing my VRM temperature against the same VRM on the Gigabyte Z370 Aorus Gaming 3 and my Gigabyte Z370 HD3 VRM runs 35c cooler at the same CPU package watts. 

My Z370 HD3 VRM 69c maximum.







The Z370 Aorus Gaming 3 104c maximum.
https://overclockers.ru/lab/show/89...aterinskoj-platy-gigabyte-z370-aorus-gaming-3


----------



## F-man4

encrypted11 said:


> I had a VIII Impact, I think it sold badly to higher paying consumers because of the wrong bet that M.2 wouldn't scale with density past drives like 950 pro 512gb vs U.2.
> Now we have 2TB pros, probably 4TB m.2 evos wouldn't be too shocking in the future.


You forgot that the riches can purchase Enterprise SSDs.
There are too many 3.84TB U.2 Enterprise SSDs on sale, while it's almost a blank on M.2 22110 ones.


----------



## asdkj1740

asus b360 should work with 8700 and 8700k eventually. however there is no any surprise on b360.
no xmp above 2666, no mce, no oc on cpu, even paried with 8700k, nothing.


----------



## AlphaC

Z370-A (Vishay variant) at PurePC.pl

https://www.purepc.pl/plyty_glowne/test_asus_prime_z370a_tansza_wersja_strix_z370f_gaming?page=0,18

Overclocked OCCT ([email protected] in Linpack , AVX off) load 3 minutes ... i.e. don't use a closed loop cooler without airflow


----------



## VickNet

Hello, though I do not understand, there are two configurations the same

i7 8700k @ 3.70GHz (5.00GHz OC) (Scalp) 
Gigabyte Aorus Gaming 5 (ATX, S1151) 
NZXT S340Elite
Kraken x62


but temperatures are different, why? especially VRM, the CPU is normal.

1 config http://i5.imageban.ru/out/2018/03/31/2f6fc3ba4ef7f2654ce07d10331d41df.jpg
2 config http://funkyimg.com/i/2DYt8.png

MB, PCH, VRM, big diferente temps...

Can be of quality thermal pads?

A mb was buy through 2017, November, another mb was procured by January 2018...

I think I took the first variants, aka a little beta))
and they already saw the problem, and settled it, right?

I think it's not the problem in any component on mb...


----------



## asdkj1740

VickNet said:


> Hello, though I do not understand, there are two configurations the same
> 
> i7 8700k @ 3.70GHz (5.00GHz OC) (Scalp)
> Gigabyte Aorus Gaming 5 (ATX, S1151)
> NZXT S340Elite
> Kraken x62
> 
> 
> but temperatures are different, why? especially VRM, the CPU is normal.
> 
> 1 config http://i5.imageban.ru/out/2018/03/31/2f6fc3ba4ef7f2654ce07d10331d41df.jpg
> 2 config http://funkyimg.com/i/2DYt8.png
> 
> MB, PCH, VRM, big diferente temps...
> 
> Can be of quality thermal pads?
> 
> A mb was buy through 2017, November, another mb was procured by January 2018...
> 
> I think I took the first variants, aka a little beta))
> and they already saw the problem, and settled it, right?
> 
> I think it's not the problem in any component on mb...


same old problem
buy a better quality and thicker pad to replace the 1mm thick stock pad


----------



## VickNet

asdkj1740 said:


> same old problem
> buy a better quality and thicker pad to replace the 1mm thick stock pad


yeah, thx, I was thinking at: https://www.amazon.com/Fujipoly-mod-smart-Extreme-Thermal/dp/B00ZSJQLME

after reviews said they were good, and helped
where did you have that problem on your motherboard? and which pads did you put? minus how many degrees did you get?


----------



## F-man4

asdkj1740 said:


> asus b360 should work with 8700 and 8700k eventually. however there is no any surprise on b360.
> no xmp above 2666, no mce, no oc on cpu, even paried with 8700k, nothing.


But the poor Chinese end users are seriously sticking to the slight pricedown between Z370 and H370/B360/H310 so they'll be all moving on them.
BTW I'm interesting in how many H370/B360/H310 MBs will be on Midrange or above lol.


----------



## SirBSOD

Hi, which motherboard is better (overall quality and overclocking)?
1) ASUS Prime Z370-A
2) ASUS ROG Strix Z370-F Gaming
3) MSI Z370 Gaming Pro Carbon
And what difference between ASUS Prime Z370-A and ASUS ROG Strix Z370-F Gaming, except of design and audio sistem?


----------



## asdkj1740

https://youtu.be/c-qY59VrVS4?t=424
gigabyte used to have good mounting pressure on the heatsink.


----------



## wingman99

SirBSOD said:


> Hi, which motherboard is better (overall quality and overclocking)?
> 1) ASUS Prime Z370-A
> 2) ASUS ROG Strix Z370-F Gaming
> 3) MSI Z370 Gaming Pro Carbon
> And what difference between ASUS Prime Z370-A and ASUS ROG Strix Z370-F Gaming, except of design and audio sistem?


I would go for the Asrock z370 extreme4 it has a good VRM that you can run prime95 small FFT at 5.0GHz and Backup BIOS for overclocking BIOS corruption. I have made use of my backup BIOS on my Gigabyte Z370 HD3.


----------



## Icanthelplt90

So, first off loving my asrock fatal1ty z370 itx board and my 8700k. Ive been having problems with the 1.40 bios and my overclock needing more voltage than previously. 5ghz at 1.44v seems a bit high to be stable where before i was around 1.34 so if anyone has any tips or something i may be missing. let me know, otherwise i'll just go back to 1.10 or go to maybe try 1.90 to get better voltages. I mean it stayed at 87c during Aida64 stress test but yeah, still not comfortable with that voltage at all.

Also does anyone know which TMPIN is what ? theres 3 that show up in hardware monitor.


----------



## demone

Guys, whats the difference between Z370 AORUS ULTRA GAMING WIFI and Gigabyte Z370 Aorus Ultra Gaming 2.0 besides wifi ofcource ? 

I am searching for a value wifi board 
and currently i am between the 
1. Gigabyte Z370 Aorus Ultra Gaming WiFi
2. Asrock Z370 Extreme4

the price is the same. 

a nvme ssd 960 evo will possible be purchased and there is a possibility for 8600k 
so overclock on air is possible too. What do you think Giga or Asrock or something else?


----------



## encrypted11

Icanthelplt90 said:


> So, first off loving my asrock fatal1ty z370 itx board and my 8700k. Ive been having problems with the 1.40 bios and my overclock needing more voltage than previously. 5ghz at 1.44v seems a bit high to be stable where before i was around 1.34 so if anyone has any tips or something i may be missing. let me know, otherwise i'll just go back to 1.10 or go to maybe try 1.90 to get better voltages. I mean it stayed at 87c during Aida64 stress test but yeah, still not comfortable with that voltage at all.
> 
> Also does anyone know which TMPIN is what ? theres 3 that show up in hardware monitor.


1.1.1 beta was the first vdroop fix.
1.4 was an overall better BIOS with working c states.
1.5 and 1.7 (early spectre BIOSes) are broken and the VID behaviour is extremely causing stability issues even at fixed volts in my usage.
1.9 (microcode 84) behaves like 1.4, but LLC2 is probably 10-20mV tighter than with 1.4 (good thing). Stick with LLC1 (~ASUS L6) or 2 (~ASUS L4-5), make sure you're reading vCore than VID.

On TMPIN, I think ASRock TSD will be most qualified to answer that.


----------



## Jpmboy

Daaaumn - wingnut bombed this thread too?


----------



## Icanthelplt90

encrypted11 said:


> 1.1.1 beta was the first vdroop fix.
> 1.4 was an overall better BIOS with working c states.
> 1.5 and 1.7 (early spectre BIOSes) are broken and the VID behaviour is extremely causing stability issues even at fixed volts in my usage.
> 1.9 (microcode 84) behaves like 1.4, but LLC2 is probably 10-20mV tighter than with 1.4 (good thing). Stick with LLC1 (~ASUS L6) or 2 (~ASUS L4-5), make sure you're reading vCore than VID.
> 
> On TMPIN, I think ASRock TSD will be most qualified to answer that.


Thanks!! So I reset everything to default and i'm still on 1.40 but im sitting at 5.2 with a AVX offset at 2 and uncore at 45 at 1.38v. I ended up just going through every setting and i think i was missing something before but until i get my proper watercooling setup im not gonna push it anymore i dont think... but then again OCing is too fun so we'll see!


----------



## encrypted11

Maybe you should wait for better overall cooling before running further tests. 
To reduce complexity, you might want to consider starting with AVX 0 offsets (record the baseline) before adding them when you're close.

Here's a pic I dug up from my gallery on BIOS 1.9 offset mode, per core at 53,53,52,52,52,52 with all c states and speedshift, on load its between 1.296-1.328V and some higher low load voltages on L2 for some instances.


----------



## Icanthelplt90

encrypted11 said:


> Maybe you should wait for better overall cooling before running further tests.
> To reduce complexity, you might want to consider starting with AVX 0 offsets (record the baseline) before adding them when you're close.
> 
> Here's a pic I dug up from my gallery on BIOS 1.9 offset mode, per core at 53,53,52,52,52,52 with all c states and speedshift, on load its between 1.296-1.328V and some higher low load voltages on L2 for some instances.


Ive got a Noctua NH-D15 so im not too worried about it. but i wont try for more until i delid and custom loop it. but thats intersting with how you have that setup i may try that out!


----------



## AlphaC

Continually confirming SirA12+SiRA14dp combo on most ASUS boards

http://www.hardwaresecrets.com/asus-tuf-z370-plus-gaming-motherboard/5/
http://www.gametech.ru/tools/241/
https://quasarzone.co.kr/bbs/board.php?bo_table=qc_qsz&wr_id=145799&page=2

Asus H370 also seems to have them but with fewer capacitors at the output side *http://www.bodnara.co.kr/bbs/article.html?num=145924

*
GBT Ultra Gaming 2.0 side by side* https://quasarzone.co.kr/bbs/board.php?bo_table=qc_qsz&wr_id=145189&page=2
*


----------



## encrypted11

Yup, you're almost likely to gain some frequency headroom at minimal or no voltage bumps if you peg the highest multiplier a core count of less than all of the 6 (chip dependent).

I prefer to keep the dynamic voltage and frequency scaling enabled. In theory, it might give the cores that need that opportunistic +100MHz turbo abit more juice.
But before settling with an offset profile it's always best to start with a fixed vcore baseline that you're likely to carry through various BIOS revisions (since dvfs calibration varies slightly more than "fixed" across BIOS revisions).

There's really limited info on the frequency upside with per core turbo multiplier table OC on <all cores active on the internet, but anecdotally people who have had experience with this suggest it may be +100-300MHz on the lesser cores (a lesser silicon lottery factor I've seen that myself). As a suggestion, per core multipliers like 52,51,51,50,50,50 (again, 1 to 6 "core active" ratio) are just some of the many per core table options out there.

That said it almost sounds like AVX offsets + per core multiplers might be an interesting matter to look into, I haven't experimented with this.


----------



## AlphaC

If you look at Z370 boards and compare them to H370 ones you have a clear picture of which boards are not really meant for Z370...

The price of the H370 boards is ~ $150 though so there's a pricing oddity.

https://us.hardware.info/reviews/81...rboards-asus-rog-strix-b360-f-a-h370-f-gaming

Features-wise it seems every H370 worth buying has ALC1220 and USB 3.1 Gen2.

Seems Asus feels that the H370 boards should have 9 phases total. Not sure on how that is attained though , hardware.info feels it is ON Semiconductor NTMFS4C06N + NTMFS4C10N and they also claim the ASP1400 is a 5+0 PWM controller.

Asrock Fatal1ty H370 Performance is stated as 12 phases (so likely 6+4+1+1 with VCCSA+ VCCIO bunched in there). The mosfets used are stated as NIKO-SEM PK618BA + PZ0903BK (via a 6+2 Dual output PWM Controller , uPI Group uP9521). Not very impressed with this as much as hardware.info is , even if it does have Dual BIOS.

Gigabyte's H370 Aorus gaming 3 wifi board is listed as ON Semiconductor 4C06N + 4C10N via an Intersil ISL95866 as expected. VRM heatsink has been improved in terms of surface area as well. A USB 3.1 gen 2 type C header is included and as always it has Dual BIOS. I'm not sure why WIFI is included on a H370 board that doesn't even have it integrated on the motherboard, it has added cost on to the board that could have been left off as a $20-30 accessory (bracket + antennas + wifi card). I highly doubt many people buying H370 boards will be using 802.11ac Wave2.

MSI's B360 Gaming Pro Carbon is listed as using a RichTek RT3607BC (4+3) PWM controller with Sinopower SM4336NSKP + SM4337NSKP. It's likely dual driver to 8+2. Worthy of note is the USB 3.1 gen 2 type C header.


----------



## GBT-MatthewH

AlphaC said:


> If you look at Z370 boards and compare them to H370 ones you have a clear picture of which boards are not really meant for Z370...
> 
> The price of the H370 boards is ~ $150 though so there's a pricing oddity.
> 
> https://us.hardware.info/reviews/81...rboards-asus-rog-strix-b360-f-a-h370-f-gaming
> 
> Features-wise it seems every H370 worth buying has ALC1220 and USB 3.1 Gen2.
> 
> Seems Asus feels that the H370 boards should have 9 phases total. Not sure on how that is attained though , hardware.info feels it is ON Semiconductor NTMFS4C06N + NTMFS4C10N and they also claim the ASP1400 is a 5+0 PWM controller.
> 
> Asrock Fatal1ty H370 Performance is stated as 12 phases (so likely 6+4+1+1 with VCCSA+ VCCIO bunched in there). The mosfets used are stated as NIKO-SEM PK618BA + PZ0903BK (via a 6+2 Dual output PWM Controller , uPI Group uP9521). Not very impressed with this as much as hardware.info is , even if it does have Dual BIOS.
> 
> Gigabyte's H370 Aorus gaming 3 wifi board is listed as ON Semiconductor 4C06N + 4C10N via an Intersil ISL95866 as expected. VRM heatsink has been improved in terms of surface area as well. A USB 3.1 gen 2 type C header is included and as always it has Dual BIOS. I'm not sure why WIFI is included on a H370 board that doesn't even have it integrated on the motherboard, it has added cost on to the board that could have been left off as a $20-30 accessory (bracket + antennas + wifi card). I highly doubt many people buying H370 boards will be using 802.11ac Wave2.
> 
> MSI's B360 Gaming Pro Carbon is listed as using a RichTek RT3607BC (4+3) PWM controller with Sinopower SM4336NSKP + SM4337NSKP. It's likely dual driver to 8+2. Worthy of note is the USB 3.1 gen 2 type C header.


WIFI was included because it is, partly, apart of the chipset. CNVi allows offloading of some of the overhead to the chipset, but does require a separate module. This solution is cheaper than a full add-in card, I don't know the exact BOM cost but below $20 for sure.

We chose, and I pushed for, 2x2 because 1x1 IMO is a way to "cheap out" and still call it WIFI. The price difference between the 2x2 and 1x1 module is small, and again IMO for the "top end" H370 board we felt 2x2 with Wave 2 was the way to go.

You are correct on the specs- 8 (4+4) + 2, ISL 95866, ISL 6625a


----------



## AlphaC

Ah I think you misunderstand what I meant. I meant that since people using H370 are likely not going to be using wifi anyway: the wifi card (CRF module), antennas, as well as the bracket could be sold separately as usual. If anything it can be made into an optional bundle deal when sales slow down and the new wireless _ac_ standard proliferates , so that users won't require annoying rebates.

Gigabyte clearly has the best featured H370 board (and VRM temps are a generally a non-issue on locked boards since delids are going to be non-existent) but the price is going to turn off most people from it , although the pricing isn't nearly as bad as Asus' silkscreen vomited STRIX board. Pricing on the hardware.info article might be off (I saw some typos as well) but I checked Newegg and it's close to $150 after shipping. It's a better-priced board in the Eurozone, mindfactory carries it for just under € 130.

Steven's review of the H370 Aorus Gaming 3 wifi was rather favorable:
https://www.tweaktown.com/reviews/8584/gigabyte-h370-aorus-gaming-3-wifi-intel-review/index10.html

H370 review on gecid: https://ru.gecid.com/mboard/gigabyte_h370_aorus_gaming_3_wifi/?s=all

Guru3D feels it has to contend with price-cut Z370 boards: https://www.guru3d.com/articles_pages/gigabyte_aorus_h370_gaming_3_wifi_review,29.html


> Gigabyte's H370 Aorus Gaming 3 is a really nice motherboard that offers a bit more of a value proposition at a price of under 139 USD/EUR. Truth be told though, Z370 can be spotted for under 100 EUros/USD as well. That is the reality at the moment.


PCper thinks it has overclocking potential (how does that make any sense on a H370 review?) https://www.pcper.com/reviews/Mothe...iFi-Motherboard-Review/Summary-and-Conclusion

Tom's VRM performance has it as the best one thus far: http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/h370-b360-budget-coffee-lake-motherboard-roundup,5548-6.html

PCGamesN has the same opinion on the pricing: https://www.pcgamesn.com/gigabyte-h370-aorus-gaming-3-review-benchmarks

https://techreport.com/review/33420/exploring-intel-h370-b360-and-h310-chipsets


> The highest-end Intel Wireless-AC 9560 Companion RF module shipping aboard Gigabyte's H370 and B360 boards with Wi-Fi enabled supports what Intel and its partners are calling "Gigabit Wi-Fi," courtesy of 802.11ac Wave 2 features like 160 MHz channel widths and MU-MIMO. Intel claims speeds as high as 1.73 Gbps from the Wireless-AC 9560, though that speed will likely choke on the Gigabit Ethernet wired links that are typical of most home networks today. It's worth noting that those speeds will only appear in tandem with compatible 802.11ac Wave 2 networking gear, too. The Wireless-AC 9560 CRF also supports Bluetooth 5.0. Intel claims the next-gen Bluetooth spec has greater range, potentially higher speed, better broadcast capacity for connectionless IoT environments, and easier pairing compared to Bluetooth 4.x, although we'd expect—again—that compatible hardware will be required to take advantage. Lower-end companion RF modules like the Wireless-AC 9462 and Wireless-AC 9461 still support Bluetooth 5.0, but they won't support MU-MIMO or the highest 802.11ac Wave 2 speeds.


*

-----

Market-share OPINION:*

I think the biggest threat to the GBT Aorus line is Asrock right now. They were the first to bring out the ISL99227B Intersil powerstages , the first to make a X99 / X299 MITX board , first to market with X399 MATX board, etc. Now also incorporating Dual BIOs in Z370 / H370 , the biggest reason to only buy a Gigabyte board is nullified. Some of the lower mid-end Asrock boards still have terrible design decisions though : I'm not sure why VGA ports are still included and some boards would rather leave out USB 3.1 gen 2 than some other features. The VRM designs are sometimes overmarketed by including IO+SA phases in the CPU area. The Asrock BIOS updates have been frequent on all platforms and they've been the first vendor to put out Intel ME fixes though. They've been improving quite a bit since the first Taichi board was launched and their entire website was overhauled.

Asus buyers typically have brand loyalty which is why they have ~45% motherboard market-share as of Q4 2017 per Digitimes. They'll likely still sell those underpowered , cut down ROG STRIX & TUF boards even when there are better alternatives that don't include silk screen plastered all over. It's a classic case of the halo product effect from ROG Maximus boards. ASUS has already dropped the Maximus Impact , so it's quite clear their management is not interested in low volume products that don't produce large profits. Their lack of any ROG overclocking competitions lately on hwbot is not encouraging either.

MSI has slightly improved on their VRM designs and also their board quality but they're nearly not as strong a vendor. The BIOS updates have been consistently lagging behind, some are buggy per users, and there just isn't enough to set them apart feature-wise.


----------



## GBT-MatthewH

AlphaC said:


> Ah I think you misunderstand what I meant. I meant that since people using H370 are likely not going to be using wifi anyway: the wifi card (CRF module), antennas, as well as the bracket could be sold separately as usual. If anything it can be made into an optional bundle deal when sales slow down and the new wireless _ac_ standard proliferates , so that users won't require annoying rebates.


Sure, we have that (non-wifi versions): https://www.gigabyte.com/us/Motherboard/H370-AORUS-GAMING-3-rev-10#kf 

The add-in cards don't seem to be up on the site yet, but we have them and will be selling them separate.


----------



## GBT-MatthewH

AlphaC said:


> *Market-share OPINION:*
> 
> I think the biggest threat to the GBT Aorus line is Asrock right now. They were the first to bring out the ISL99227B Intersil powerstages , the first to make a X99 / X299 MITX board , first to market with X399 MATX board, etc. Now also incorporating Dual BIOs in Z370 / H370 , the biggest reason to only buy a Gigabyte board is nullified. Some of the lower mid-end Asrock boards still have terrible design decisions though : I'm not sure why VGA ports are still included and some boards would rather leave out USB 3.1 gen 2 than some other features. The VRM designs are sometimes overmarketed by including IO+SA phases in the CPU area. The Asrock BIOS updates have been frequent on all platforms and they've been the first vendor to put out Intel ME fixes though. They've been improving quite a bit since the first Taichi board was launched and their entire website was overhauled.
> 
> Asus buyers typically have brand loyalty which is why they have ~45% motherboard market-share as of Q4 2017 per Digitimes. They'll likely still sell those underpowered , cut down ROG STRIX & TUF boards even when there are better alternatives that don't include silk screen plastered all over. It's a classic case of the halo product effect from ROG Maximus boards. ASUS has already dropped the Maximus Impact , so it's quite clear their management is not interested in low volume products that don't produce large profits. Their lack of any ROG overclocking competitions lately on hwbot is not encouraging either.
> 
> MSI has slightly improved on their VRM designs and also their board quality but they're nearly not as strong a vendor. The BIOS updates have been consistently lagging behind, some are buggy per users, and there just isn't enough to set them apart feature-wise.


Lets revisit this _soon_... Finned VRM heatsink, direct touch heat pipe, 10+2 full digital IR, removable BIOS chip + dual BIOS, few other fun things coming before you know it.


----------



## lb_felipe

What is your ranking of H370/B360 motherboards?


----------



## AlphaC

lb_felipe said:


> What is your ranking of H370/B360 motherboards?


There's no real point in really ranking them by VRM especially since you'll be power limited and most people using H370 won't delid. I would say Gigabyte's H370 Aorus Gaming 3 (non wifi because it's probably cheaper) is the best board on the market right now for H370 based on feature-set. The problem is the non-wifi version isn't readily available right now and H370 chipset stops you from pushing your memory clocks past 2666MHz. The price for the wifi one is slightly more expensive in the USA than the Asrock H370 Performance (around $20-30) but I believe the cost difference is definitely justified based on the better components (every part including audio, mosfet, inductor , not so much on power delivery's capacitors though), USB 3.1 gen 2 header, and the general overall board features. I think the top feature for "gamers" is if you like RGB the H370 Aorus Gaming 3 has a ton of it. The problem is it has to contend with Z370 boards.

I'm not sure how much of the improvement is from GBT Matt's input, but I believe he had something to do with the large improvements. You have him to thank for that.


----------



## feznz

AlphaC said:


> Asrock confirmed 10+2 to me and also gave me tips on identifying variants:
> View attachment 99729
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> full email
> View attachment 99721
> 
> 
> 
> ----------
> 
> Here's my proposed risk assessment chart if that is true , please let me know if there's any objections:
> 
> View attachment 99753
> 
> 
> I moved the UD3H to the light orange entry zone since it's using 5K caps from a Taiwanese manufacturer and is also using push pins.
> 
> Also updated temp compilation:
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 99745
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I will probably email EVGA for the TDA88420 datasheet but I doubt they will provide it.


Nice work there :thumb: would be nice if your stats were pinned to the OP post 

but does coincide with my initial thoughts buy a cheap board for a 8100 or upper tier board for 8700k 

Happy with my Apex X never really put in any thought before buying it as I am a loyal Asus fan and from past experiences and get a stable 5.4 -2 AVX daily OC for my 8600k


----------



## asdkj1740

GBT-MatthewH said:


> WIFI was included because it is, partly, apart of the chipset. CNVi allows offloading of some of the overhead to the chipset, but does require a separate module. This solution is cheaper than a full add-in card, I don't know the exact BOM cost but below $20 for sure.
> 
> We chose, and I pushed for, 2x2 because 1x1 IMO is a way to "cheap out" and still call it WIFI. The price difference between the 2x2 and 1x1 module is small, and again IMO for the "top end" H370 board we felt 2x2 with Wave 2 was the way to go.
> 
> You are correct on the specs- 8 (4+4) + 2, ISL 95866, ISL 6625a


i have checked on b360 arous' vrm heatsink contact pressure, still the same old problem. and the washer/spacer is even slightly higher than the thermal pad, why doing this again? please listen to the community and do something to fix this stupid problem for those who care about this, selling a upgraded improved heatsink is also an option. or you guys are planning to release 3.0?
why keep using push pin design while almost all your competitors products on the same price tag are using screws.


----------



## wingman99

GBT-MatthewH said:


> Lets revisit this _soon_... Finned VRM heatsink, direct touch heat pipe, 10+2 full digital IR, removable BIOS chip + dual BIOS, few other fun things coming before you know it.


How is Gigabyte doing in Z370 motherboard sales?


----------



## AlphaC

What you quoted is in reference to X470 (AM4) launching April 19th. X470 Gaming 7 is a known board (10x IR3553 for CPU V_Core).


----------



## Icanthelplt90

encrypted11 said:


> Yup, you're almost likely to gain some frequency headroom at minimal or no voltage bumps if you peg the highest multiplier a core count of less than all of the 6 (chip dependent).
> 
> I prefer to keep the dynamic voltage and frequency scaling enabled. In theory, it might give the cores that need that opportunistic +100MHz turbo abit more juice.
> But before settling with an offset profile it's always best to start with a fixed vcore baseline that you're likely to carry through various BIOS revisions (since dvfs calibration varies slightly more than "fixed" across BIOS revisions).
> 
> There's really limited info on the frequency upside with per core turbo multiplier table OC on <all cores active on the internet, but anecdotally people who have had experience with this suggest it may be +100-300MHz on the lesser cores (a lesser silicon lottery factor I've seen that myself). As a suggestion, per core multipliers like 52,51,51,50,50,50 (again, 1 to 6 "core active" ratio) are just some of the many per core table options out there.
> 
> That said it almost sounds like AVX offsets + per core multiplers might be an interesting matter to look into, I haven't experimented with this.


Currently im sitting at 5.1 all cores with an offset of 1(because for whatever reason i cant set it to 0, only auto) with ratio at 47 and a vcore of 1.325(i notice fluctuations around .02). Were you able to get your offset set to 0 and if so what did you do?


----------



## encrypted11

I don't have an issue with the offset though I've heard about that issue, probably a setting combo.
Here's what I've done and I haven't seen frequency / core / ring offsets on the AVX offsets = 0 setting.


----------



## wingman99

Icanthelplt90 said:


> Currently im sitting at 5.1 all cores with an offset of 1(because for whatever reason i cant set it to 0, only auto) with ratio at 47 and a vcore of 1.325(i notice fluctuations around .02). Were you able to get your offset set to 0 and if so what did you do?


Auto should be 0. What motherboard do you have?


encrypted11 said:


> I don't have an issue with the offset though I've heard about that issue, probably a setting combo.
> Here's what I've done and I haven't seen frequency / core / ring offsets on the AVX offsets = 0 setting.


What does FCLK do?


----------



## encrypted11

Fclk is other wise known as System Agent frequency.
It does affect how much SA / IO a chip requires to stabilize a memory overclock.


----------



## ePlus

I've tried reading all the pages but I have given up! Can you summarize why some Prime z370-A have different VRMs? From what I have read here some are OnSemi, some are Vishay (probably depending on where they are being sold?) Also, what about z370-E, what VRMs are they using?


----------



## AlphaC

ePlus said:


> I've tried reading all the pages but I have given up! Can you summarize why some Prime z370-A have different VRMs? From what I have read here some are OnSemi, some are Vishay (probably depending on where they are being sold?) Also, what about z370-E, what VRMs are they using?


Z370-E STRIX appears to be exclusively Vishay SiRA12 + SiRA14dp. I haven't seen an Onsemi version.

Z370-A seems to have two variants. One is the same as the Z370-E STRIX and Z370-F STRIX. One has OnSemi 4C09 + 4C06 similar to Gigabyte's boards. It's likely a supplier variance. Because of it's status as a volume board there needs to be an alternate part when the Vishay mosfet parts are not available or low stock.

The Z370-A's Vishay variant seems to heat up more (per reviews) for whatever reason. On paper the Vishay variant has faster switching times but that is going to be limited by the dual driver used. It's believed to be a Richtek part.

Unless you are thinking of pushing over 20A per mosfet (so over 160A to the CPU, which is over Intel's 138A spec) I wouldn't worry too much about it. The SirA12dp is package limited to 25A. If you cool the VRM both should have comparable results if ASUS felt they are interchangeable. If you aren't using AVX2 instructions (such as rendering or encoding) you will likely not see any thermal limitations, since you would need to push roughly 160-180W before you see the mosfets start to hit a higher temperature and even a 5GHz CPU will consume ~140-150W if not using AVX instructions. The design operating point was clearly non-delidded chips that are Intel TIM limited to around 140-150W.

Asrock's Fatal1ty K6 or Extreme4 have a better setup for similar monetary outlay (i.e. price) but if you can find the Z370-A or Z370-E for cheap (<$130) I wouldn't hesitate to buy them provided you update your BIOS to avoid LLC issues.

In summary, if you aren't going for a $200+ MSRP *** "high end" board (such as Gigabyte Gaming 7, Asus ROG Apex/Formula/Hero, or Asrock Taichi), I would still recommend the Asrock K6 or Extreme4. The Extreme4 has been recommended by PC Gameshardware.de, hardware.info, hardwareunboxed, etc. The K6 is a slightly better version of it with Debug LED, dual LAN, an external base clock generator, & power/reset buttons. To get a Debug LED on other vendors' midrange boards you need to buy a MSI M5 , or Gigabyte Gaming 5.

In fact Level1techs also uploaded a new video on the Extreme4 to explore how Asrock cut costs and they couldn't find anything major (even though I listed what they cut in the above paragraph):





K6 voltage regulator overview on hardwaresecrets http://www.hardwaresecrets.com/asrock-fatal1ty-z370-gaming-k6-motherboard/5/

*** MSRP doesn't mean much. A product is only worth how much people are willing to pay for it! The massive drop on boards valued at $180-200 such as the Z370-F STRIX , Z370 Pro Carbon & M5, and Z370 Ultra Gaming 2.0 demonstrates it. Those boards were worth about 20% more at launch and now they are all around the $150 area.


----------



## wingman99

That was good information and Video.:specool:


----------



## ePlus

Thanks for the elaborate reply. I will be using an air cooler (dark rock 3 pro) so I guess I do not really need anything better than the z370-E, even though it is slightly more expensive than ASRock. I just come from an ASRock motherboard and to be honest, I want to see how Asus are performing (although both brands are actually the same). I wonder how much I would be able to get on all 6 cores WITH an AVX offset of 0. To me, a system is stable when all its "extras" are included and working. For anything else, I can just save a gaming profile in the BIOS with a monster single-core clock with AVX at maximum negative. But that's not really the point, imo.


----------



## Daydreaming

I've tried to follow and understand this thread (ha!) but I'm still confused. 

Should I buy the ASRock Extreme4 or Gigabyte Z370 ultra gaming 2.0.


----------



## mouacyk

wingman99 said:


> Auto should be 0. What motherboard do you have?
> 
> What does FCLK do?


FCLK increases the speed at which the CPU communicates through the PCIe lanes. Anandtech has performed benchmarks at 800MHz vs 1000MHz and vs 4th and 6th generation CPUs, where the increase is tiny but consistent.


----------



## wingman99

mouacyk said:


> FCLK increases the speed at which the CPU communicates through the PCIe lanes. Anandtech has performed benchmarks at 800MHz vs 1000MHz and vs 4th and 6th generation CPUs, where the increase is tiny but consistent.


Thanks for the information.


----------



## AlphaC

For people that love buildzoid he posted something on Z370-G





He calls it "awful" which is a bit extreme ...

---------

MSI M5 review : https://www.overclockers.ua/motherboard/msi-z370-gaming-m5/all/

Z370-A review http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/asus-prime-z370-a-atx-motherboard,5506-4.html


----------



## asdkj1740

AlphaC said:


> For people that love buildzoid he posted something on Z370-G
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cA2NQsgrJPk
> 
> He calls it "awful" which is a bit extreme ...
> 
> ---------
> 
> MSI M5 review : https://www.overclockers.ua/motherboard/msi-z370-gaming-m5/all/
> 
> Z370-A review http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/asus-prime-z370-a-atx-motherboard,5506-4.html


his views are always extreme.
i have not seen a mass failure reported from end users on what he claims.
eg. 1080fe/1080ti on asus t4 bios with no power limit that could draw 400~500w, those cheap b350 mobos with heavy >=3.8g 1600/1700 oc...

i am not saying what he said is wrong, but just too extreme, although i agree with him.


----------



## F-man4

STRIX should be kicked out from ROG because of their poor VRM performance.....


----------



## NerouN

What better way to buy a motherboard asus z370 e gaming or ASRock z370 taichi?


----------



## asdkj1740

f3 bios is out for the gigabyte ultra gaming 2.0 recently, have anyone tried that ?

f2 bios sucks, i can confirm the ddr4 oc is locked at 3600mhz if your ddr4 kit is rated at 3600mhz. i tried galax hof 3600 and adata xpg z1 3600, both are samsung b die, and i cant oc above 3600mhz (timings and voltages are tweakable beyond rated btw, just the frequency is locked at rated 3600 max.). seems the f2 bios locks the max ddr4 mhz oc according to your ddr4 kit rated mhz. on the official website there are some 4000mhz kits proved to be able to used on the same mobo.

ultra gaming 1.0 f5 bios can oc to 3733...while 2.0 f2 bios cant.... i have lost all my faith on gigabyte...or gigabyte is planning to release 3.0?
looking forward to buy z390, not going for gigabyte for sure.



anyways, gigabyte has fixed the vrm heatisnk mounting pressure fault by releasing the newest and cheapest z370m ds3h.
i am glad gigabyte is listening to us! cheersss!
https://static.gigabyte.com/Product/2/6486/2017122115511119_big.png


----------



## NerouN

Can you please tell what board it is better to buy asus z370 e gaming or ASRock z370 taichi?


----------



## asdkj1740

NerouN said:


> Can you please tell what board it is better to buy asus z370 e gaming or ASRock z370 taichi?


of course taichi is better in terms of vrm design


----------



## aliquiswe

demone said:


> Guys, whats the difference between Z370 AORUS ULTRA GAMING WIFI and Gigabyte Z370 Aorus Ultra Gaming 2.0 besides wifi ofcource ?
> 
> I am searching for a value wifi board
> and currently i am between the
> 1. Gigabyte Z370 Aorus Ultra Gaming WiFi
> 2. Asrock Z370 Extreme4
> 
> the price is the same.
> 
> a nvme ssd 960 evo will possible be purchased and there is a possibility for 8600k
> so overclock on air is possible too. What do you think Giga or Asrock or something else?


Ultra gaming 2 have better VRM than Ultra gaming, maybe the same as Gaming 5?

The ASRock ITX board had seemed nice but maybe it doesn't have enough of expandability for you.


----------



## asdkj1740

gigabyte never learns.
https://www.mobile01.com/newsdetail...shair-vii-hero-aorus-gaming7-msi-gaming-m7-ac
https://attach.mobile01.com/attach/201804/mobile01-4db96e7939c099690b775c453a80d6d6.jpg


this is the standard average that you wont be seeing on gigabyte.
https://attach.mobile01.com/attach/201804/mobile01-e73bbc79eebb9b1e2ce38bfe4acebf60.jpg


----------



## asdkj1740

aliquiswe said:


> Ultra gaming 2 have better VRM than Ultra gaming, maybe the same as Gaming 5?
> 
> The ASRock ITX board had seemed nice but maybe it doesn't have enough of expandability for you.


2.0 just adds 4 more inductors. same mosfets and same dual drivers although the dual drivers have relocated.
gaming 5 has better vrm heatsink. same vrm.


----------



## wingman99

asdkj1740 said:


> 2.0 just adds 4 more inductors. same mosfets and same dual drivers although the dual drivers have relocated.
> gaming 5 has better vrm heatsink. same vrm.


Interesting, do you have a link for that?


----------



## rootmoto

@GBT-MatthewH How many Amps per phase on the Z370 Aorus Gaming 5?


----------



## GBT-MatthewH

rootmoto said:


> @GBT-MatthewH How many Amps per phase on the Z370 Aorus Gaming 5?


ISL95866 = 40A. G5 uses an 8 phases (doubled) + 3 design.


----------



## wingman99

GBT-MatthewH said:


> ISL95866 = 40A. G5 uses an 8 phases (doubled) + 3 design.


What is the power MOSFET?


----------



## GBT-MatthewH

ISL6625a, High = 1x 4C06N, Low = 1x 4C10N


----------



## wingman99

GBT-MatthewH said:


> ISL6625a, High = 1x 4C06N, Low = 1x 4C10N


Thanks for the information.


----------



## BiggShot

Hey everyone, New to the site here

I currently have a Gigabyte Aorus Gaming 5 with a 8700k and while doing my OC the voltages jump around quite alot. I was set at 5.1Ghz @ 1.30v and CPU-Z HW Info and HW monitor were all seeing spikes up to 1.38v with the LCC settings at turbo. It would jump between 1.25 and 1.38 seamingly randomly. At High LLC setting the vcore would not go above 1.24v. Is this an issue with the VRM phases. I just got the mobo and CPU and was thinking of returning it to get a Asrock Fatiality/Tiachi or maybe Asus ROG mobo but im not sure if that would help. The VRM temp are in the 60s on IBT and while gaming but get up to 105 while running prime 95 after about an hour or so. The cpu temps max out at 60c as my 8700k is delided with liquid metal and i have a full petg loop with a 360 and 240 rad. The OC did pass stress tests but i dont want to push it further with this much voltage variation. 

I know all my settings in the BIOS for the OC are correct so could it be a issue with it being a 4x2 VCORE VRM setup? would the 6x2 setup on the ASROCK help with this? What do you guys think would work the best, i will probably end up changing out my supremacy EVO WB for a MONO block in the near future as well. Im looking to stay under $250 for the MOBO.


On my 7700k i was using a z270 tomahawk Arctic, which i know has not the best vrms, and my vcore was stable when stress testing. 

Thanks


----------



## GBT-MatthewH

BiggShot said:


> Hey everyone, New to the site here
> 
> I currently have a Gigabyte Aorus Gaming 5 with a 8700k and while doing my OC the voltages jump around quite alot. I was set at 5.1Ghz @ 1.30v and CPU-Z HW Info and HW monitor were all seeing spikes up to 1.38v with the LCC settings at turbo. It would jump between 1.25 and 1.38 seamingly randomly. At High LLC setting the vcore would not go above 1.24v. Is this an issue with the VRM phases. I just got the mobo and CPU and was thinking of returning it to get a Asrock Fatiality/Tiachi or maybe Asus ROG mobo but im not sure if that would help. The VRM temp are in the 60s on IBT and while gaming but get up to 105 while running prime 95 after about an hour or so. The cpu temps max out at 60c as my 8700k is delided with liquid metal and i have a full petg loop with a 360 and 240 rad. The OC did pass stress tests but i dont want to push it further with this much voltage variation.
> 
> I know all my settings in the BIOS for the OC are correct so could it be a issue with it being a 4x2 VCORE VRM setup? would the 6x2 setup on the ASROCK help with this? What do you guys think would work the best, i will probably end up changing out my supremacy EVO WB for a MONO block in the near future as well. Im looking to stay under $250 for the MOBO.
> 
> 
> On my 7700k i was using a z270 tomahawk Arctic, which i know has not the best vrms, and my vcore was stable when stress testing.
> 
> Thanks


What you are describing sounds pretty normal. LLC is not a static figure, its an offset that fluxuates based on the CPU VID (voltage requested).

In terms of VRM temps 105C is high but still within the max operating temps. Prime95 is literally a torture test for VRM and CPU temps, so that's your maxi-max temp. I assume your gaming temps are under 90C? If so, again, not something to be concerned with.

If you want a higher OC, then a better VRM should help. If you just want lower temps you could check the airflow around the VRM, or if you really want a different board then one with a better VRM and/or bigger heatsinks may help. If you are just comparing your #'s to what is expected your right on the money with the setup you have.


----------



## BiggShot

GBT-MatthewH said:


> What you are describing sounds pretty normal. LLC is not a static figure, its an offset that fluxuates based on the CPU VID (voltage requested).
> 
> In terms of VRM temps 105C is high but still within the max operating temps. Prime95 is literally a torture test for VRM and CPU temps, so that's your maxi-max temp. I assume your gaming temps are under 90C? If so, again, not something to be concerned with.
> 
> If you want a higher OC, then a better VRM should help. If you just want lower temps you could check the airflow around the VRM, or if you really want a different board then one with a better VRM and/or bigger heatsinks may help. If you are just comparing your #'s to what is expected your right on the money with the setup you have.


Thanks for the responce man,

Im really just looking for more stable vcore voltages, i know on my 7700k the Vcore variation was .02-.03v Max when stress testing im getting almost a .15v variation.

Is this normal on coffee lake? Is the Vcore LLC on a different board maybe more stable then? 

Honestly have STD, High and turbo as Vcore LLC settings kinda rubs me the wrong way.


----------



## Scotty99

lol just saw that video on the strix-g by buildzoid, is the strix-f just as potato?


----------



## rootmoto

@GBT-MatthewH Also how many amps can the 1 choke on the CPU VRM handle?


----------



## VeritronX

I don't really understand how it's so hard to make a board that can hold a voltage tightly without overshoot.. The rampage 3 extreme I had back in the day did that really well, the Z87i Pro and Z97 sabertooth mark S also did it spot on no questions asked... 

Then I get gigabyte's highest end AM4 board and the best it can manage is +/- 15mv, and the asrock z370 gaming itx board.. that has a pretty high end vrm solution with chips that include heatspreaders in them.. can still vary under load by +/- 20-30mv and doesn't seem to set or read voltage changes less than 16mv or so. 

The lack of precision in the voltage control on new boards just doesn't make sense.


----------



## wingman99

BiggShot said:


> Hey everyone, New to the site here
> 
> I currently have a Gigabyte Aorus Gaming 5 with a 8700k and while doing my OC the voltages jump around quite alot. I was set at 5.1Ghz @ 1.30v and CPU-Z HW Info and HW monitor were all seeing spikes up to 1.38v with the LCC settings at turbo. It would jump between 1.25 and 1.38 seamingly randomly. At High LLC setting the vcore would not go above 1.24v. Is this an issue with the VRM phases. I just got the mobo and CPU and was thinking of returning it to get a Asrock Fatiality/Tiachi or maybe Asus ROG mobo but im not sure if that would help. The VRM temp are in the 60s on IBT and while gaming but get up to 105 while running prime 95 after about an hour or so. The cpu temps max out at 60c as my 8700k is delided with liquid metal and i have a full petg loop with a 360 and 240 rad. The OC did pass stress tests but i dont want to push it further with this much voltage variation.
> 
> I know all my settings in the BIOS for the OC are correct so could it be a issue with it being a 4x2 VCORE VRM setup? would the 6x2 setup on the ASROCK help with this? What do you guys think would work the best, i will probably end up changing out my supremacy EVO WB for a MONO block in the near future as well. Im looking to stay under $250 for the MOBO.
> 
> 
> On my 7700k i was using a z270 tomahawk Arctic, which i know has not the best vrms, and my vcore was stable when stress testing.
> 
> Thanks


All the temperatures are within long term reliability. The VRM at 120c MTTF (mean time to failure) is 23,124,834 Hours. link: http://www.onsemi.com/PowerSolutions/reliability.do?part=NTMFS4C06NAT1G

If your using dynamic DVID for Vcore, the Vcore will dynamically adjust according to CPU utilization faster then can be reported accurately with software utilities. Fixed Vcore and turbo LLC will float the Vcore very little. All this is normal on all motherboards and processors from intel and is no concern. All that is need is a stable overclock. You can have DVID from the processor command the voltage with your setting maximum level voltage scaling or use the old tech Fixed voltage, LLC Turbo, VRM setting.


----------



## elmor

VeritronX said:


> I don't really understand how it's so hard to make a board that can hold a voltage tightly without overshoot.. The rampage 3 extreme I had back in the day did that really well, the Z87i Pro and Z97 sabertooth mark S also did it spot on no questions asked...
> 
> Then I get gigabyte's highest end AM4 board and the best it can manage is +/- 15mv, and the asrock z370 gaming itx board.. that has a pretty high end vrm solution with chips that include heatspreaders in them.. can still vary under load by +/- 20-30mv and doesn't seem to set or read voltage changes less than 16mv or so.
> 
> The lack of precision in the voltage control on new boards just doesn't make sense.



It's not a lack of precision in voltage control, it's a lack of precision in voltage readings. At least for the majority of solutions.


----------



## asdkj1740

GBT-MatthewH said:


> ISL6625a, High = 1x 4C06N, Low = 1x 4C10N


hi MatthewH, how many mk/w is gigabyte thermal pads on z370/x470 is rated?


----------



## asdkj1740

BiggShot said:


> Hey everyone, New to the site here
> 
> I currently have a Gigabyte Aorus Gaming 5 with a 8700k and while doing my OC the voltages jump around quite alot. I was set at 5.1Ghz @ 1.30v and CPU-Z HW Info and HW monitor were all seeing spikes up to 1.38v with the LCC settings at turbo. It would jump between 1.25 and 1.38 seamingly randomly. At High LLC setting the vcore would not go above 1.24v. Is this an issue with the VRM phases. I just got the mobo and CPU and was thinking of returning it to get a Asrock Fatiality/Tiachi or maybe Asus ROG mobo but im not sure if that would help. The VRM temp are in the 60s on IBT and while gaming but get up to 105 while running prime 95 after about an hour or so. The cpu temps max out at 60c as my 8700k is delided with liquid metal and i have a full petg loop with a 360 and 240 rad. The OC did pass stress tests but i dont want to push it further with this much voltage variation.
> 
> I know all my settings in the BIOS for the OC are correct so could it be a issue with it being a 4x2 VCORE VRM setup? would the 6x2 setup on the ASROCK help with this? What do you guys think would work the best, i will probably end up changing out my supremacy EVO WB for a MONO block in the near future as well. Im looking to stay under $250 for the MOBO.
> 
> 
> On my 7700k i was using a z270 tomahawk Arctic, which i know has not the best vrms, and my vcore was stable when stress testing.
> 
> Thanks


for the extremely high vrm temp on gigabyte z370s, just swap some good and thicker thermal pads, and you should see some dramatical changes on vrm temp.
gigabyte vrm is not that awful, at least compared to other similar products from other brands, it is suck because of the cooling problem made by the stupid stock thermal pad.


----------



## wingman99

asdkj1740 said:


> for the extremely high vrm temp on gigabyte z370s, just swap some good and thicker thermal pads, and you should see some dramatical changes on vrm temp.
> gigabyte vrm is not that awful, at least compared to other similar products from other brands, it is suck because of the cooling problem made by the stupid stock thermal pad.


What other Z370 motherboard reports VRM temperatures to compare the quality of cooling to Gigabyte?


----------



## F-man4

asdkj1740 said:


> for the extremely high vrm temp on gigabyte z370s, just swap some good and thicker thermal pads, and you should see some dramatical changes on vrm temp.
> gigabyte vrm is not that awful, at least compared to other similar products from other brands, it is suck because of the cooling problem made by the stupid stock thermal pad.


Do we need the 50W/mK expensive thermal pads?


----------



## BiggShot

wingman99 said:


> All the temperatures are within long term reliability. The VRM at 120c MTTF (mean time to failure) is 23,124,834 Hours. link: http://www.onsemi.com/PowerSolutions/reliability.do?part=NTMFS4C06NAT1G
> 
> If your using dynamic DVID for Vcore, the Vcore will dynamically adjust according to CPU utilization faster then can be reported accurately with software utilities. Fixed Vcore and turbo LLC will float the Vcore very little. All this is normal on all motherboards and processors from intel and is no concern. All that is need is a stable overclock. You can have DVID from the processor command the voltage with your setting maximum level voltage scaling or use the old tech Fixed voltage, LLC Turbo, VRM setting.


thanks man, i wasnt to worried about about the temps on the VRMs i know they were in line especially with prime 95. The thing is i am using override/fixed setting for vcore with turbo llc and i am seeing a very large float on the Vcore, set to 1.335v and see a fluctuation from 1.25v - 1.38v during a stress test on both prime 95 and IBT while the cpu is at 100% load.


----------



## cba1986

hello.

sorry to jump in like this. but am i in the verge of upgrading from a 2600k @ 4.8, 8gigs of ram to a 8700k with 16GB. but the theorically release of z390 + 8c/16 is pulling me off. 

do you recommend of upgrading anyway?


----------



## wingman99

BiggShot said:


> thanks man, i wasnt to worried about about the temps on the VRMs i know they were in line especially with prime 95. The thing is i am using override/fixed setting for vcore with turbo llc and i am seeing a very large float on the Vcore, set to 1.335v and see a fluctuation from 1.25v - 1.38v during a stress test on both prime 95 and IBT while the cpu is at 100% load.


Since you made your post I did some testing with Fixed Vcore and LLC Turbo since I use DVID on my Gigabyte Z370 HD3 and found the same Vcore floating as you. I wonder if it is all Z370 motherboards or just Gigabyte?



cba1986 said:


> hello.
> 
> sorry to jump in like this. but am i in the verge of upgrading from a 2600k @ 4.8, 8gigs of ram to a 8700k with 16GB. but the theorically release of z390 + 8c/16 is pulling me off.
> 
> do you recommend of upgrading anyway?


I would wait for z390 8c/16t. I'm also looking forward to that, I only spent a total of us$360.00 for coffee lake upgrade.


----------



## cba1986

wingman99 said:


> Since you made your post I did some testing with Fixed Vcore and LLC Turbo since I use DVID on my Gigabyte Z370 HD3 and found the same Vcore floating as you. I wonder if it is all Z370 motherboards or just Gigabyte?
> 
> 
> I would wait for z390 8c/16t. I'm also looking forward to that, I only spent a total of us$360.00 for coffee lake upgrade.


thanks for the answer. i live in a country (argentina) where the tec is expensive with the added problem on inflation when prices never comes down. the cheapest 16 combo is around 271.6 usd dollars.

i need to spent around 1000 usd for the complete upgrade. 8700k + Asrock k6 + corsair 3200.

for the usage i dont really need 8 cores but it would be nice to have. the thing is that that amount of cores comes with a premium price. and when it will be available. in here 8700 were available in january.


----------



## BiggShot

ok guys what you you think ROG Maximus X Formula or Aorus Gaming 7 with a monoblock. I have a custom loop so either way the VRMs will be watercooled. they come out to about the same price once you factor in the mono block on the gaming 7?


----------



## scracy

BiggShot said:


> ok guys what you you think ROG Maximus X Formula or Aorus Gaming 7 with a monoblock. I have a custom loop so either way the VRMs will be watercooled. they come out to about the same price once you factor in the mono block on the gaming 7?


I own a Maximus X Formula since day of release, never had an issue with it very solid board that performs really well


----------



## BiggShot

scracy said:


> BiggShot said:
> 
> 
> 
> ok guys what you you think ROG Maximus X Formula or Aorus Gaming 7 with a monoblock. I have a custom loop so either way the VRMs will be watercooled. they come out to about the same price once you factor in the mono block on the gaming 7?
> 
> 
> 
> I own a Maximus X Formula since day of release, never had an issue with it very solid board that performs really well /forum/images/smilies/smile.gif
Click to expand...

You using it with a custom loop? 8700k? If so How much voltage variation do you have when stress testing on an overclock


----------



## wingman99

scracy said:


> I own a Maximus X Formula since day of release, never had an issue with it very solid board that performs really well


Can you show a screenshot of prime95 blend running for 5-10 minutes with Vcore minimum and maximum? I would like to see if it does better than my Gigabyte Z370 HD3 with core voltage fluctuation running fixed Vcore and LLC disabled/Turbo?


----------



## scracy

BiggShot said:


> You using it with a custom loop? 8700k? If so How much voltage variation do you have when stress testing on an overclock


Yes 8700K running a custom loop, pointless having a Formula board if you are using a closed loop cooler in which case Maximus X Code would be a better choice, running a stress test such as OCCT large or Realbench using LLC level 5 drops voltage by the minimum software measurable value of 16mV no more than that, 24/7 use I run [email protected] in Windows (1.39V UEFI) under load drops to 1.376V in Windows


----------



## asdkj1740

the latest f3 bios on gigabyte ultra gaming 2.0 finally being supported by gigabyte own software siv for fan controlling.


----------



## Alwinp

So i'll be upgrading to a 8600k.

I was considering getting the ASUS PRIME Z370-A, but the chart confuses me a bit. 

Is this the same Z370-A listed on the chart? and why is it marked in yellow?
Are there cheaper alternatives that offer the same utility and OC performance?

I aim for a 4.8-5.0 GHZ OC on air

Thanks in advance


----------



## wingman99

Alwinp said:


> So i'll be upgrading to a 8600k.
> 
> I was considering getting the ASUS PRIME Z370-A, but the chart confuses me a bit.
> 
> Is this the same Z370-A listed on the chart? and why is it marked in yellow?
> Are there cheaper alternatives that offer the same utility and OC performance?
> 
> I aim for a 4.8-5.0 GHZ OC on air
> 
> Thanks in advance


I would go for ASRock Extreme 4, most folks like it better than the ASUS PRIME Z370-A. Both will do you fine on the lower watt i5 8600k.


----------



## GBT-MatthewH

asdkj1740 said:


> hi MatthewH, how many mk/w is gigabyte thermal pads on z370/x470 is rated?


Sorry took a bit to get this info.... W/m-K is 1.8


----------



## xenphor

I would also like to know what the colors mean on the chart? I have an asus strix z370i which is a different color than all the others.


----------



## asdkj1740

GBT-MatthewH said:


> Sorry took a bit to get this info.... W/m-K is 1.8


its okay, thanks for you reply.
1.8w/mk is above what i was expecting. 

just one sincere suggestion to your new coming z390, dont replicate the stupidity on z370 vrm cooling (not the mosfet itself).
no matter it is due to the poor cooling performance of the pad, or insignificant mounting presssure.
let z370 dies and rise in z390 again.


----------



## wingman99

asdkj1740 said:


> its okay, thanks for you reply.
> 1.8w/mk is above what i was expecting.
> 
> just one sincere suggestion to your new coming z390, dont replicate the stupidity on z370 vrm cooling (not the mosfet itself).
> no matter it is due to the poor cooling performance of the pad, or insignificant mounting presssure.
> let z370 dies and rise in z390 again.


I can't tell in the forums if other Z370 manufactures do better than Gigabyte with cooling the VRMs, they don't have VRM temp sensors and the VRMs throttle from what I have seen.


----------



## zGunBLADEz

AlphaC said:


> For people that love buildzoid he posted something on Z370-G
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cA2NQsgrJPk
> 
> He calls it "awful" which is a bit extreme ...
> 
> ---------
> 
> MSI M5 review : https://www.overclockers.ua/motherboard/msi-z370-gaming-m5/all/
> 
> Z370-A review http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/asus-prime-z370-a-atx-motherboard,5506-4.html


I agreed with him!!!!! i thought i was crazy, i paid almost $200 for that crap not even a temp sensor on the vrms and the funny thing they shutdown bcuz of the vrms. i had to turn the vrm thermal crap off. i dont know he was getting the readings from to do the shutdown. I even have to shed $$$ for a monoblock to deal with that crap and even that didnt help too much the fact that the mobo still "PORQUERIA" crap

I havent buy a "ROG" board since my z87 Maximus ITX and z97 Gene Maximus boards bcuz i wasnt into skylake or kabylake and damn man this OLD ROG boards are like 3 tiers ahead in quality than this crap..





sooo any word from asus after bullzoid went all over the vrms on the strix boards?


----------



## asdkj1740

wingman99 said:


> I can't tell in the forums if other Z370 manufactures do better than Gigabyte with cooling the VRMs, they don't have VRM temp sensors and the VRMs throttle from what I have seen.


there is nothing to do with other brands' vrm cooling.
gigabyte could have been better or even won among others.

https://www.reddit.com/r/intel/comments/7dz5qy/gigabyte_z370_aorus_gaming_7_high_vrm_temps/




https://www.reddit.com/r/intel/comments/7dz5qy/gigabyte_z370_aorus_gaming_7_high_vrm_temps/dq5dsfp/

i also tested this out and found that changing to thicker thermal pads significantly helps reducing vrm temp and avoiding throttling that used to be happened with the stock pad.


----------



## fak1t

Guys is the Asrock Z370 Fatality K6 a better motherboard than the Extreme 4? how is the Asrock motherboard compared to the Asus Z370 Prime A?

Cheers


----------



## GBT-MatthewH

asdkj1740 said:


> its okay, thanks for you reply.
> 1.8w/mk is above what i was expecting.
> 
> just one sincere suggestion to your new coming z390, dont replicate the stupidity on z370 vrm cooling (not the mosfet itself).
> no matter it is due to the poor cooling performance of the pad, or insignificant mounting presssure.
> let z370 dies and rise in z390 again.


VRM designs moving forward will follow the X470 focus on performance


----------



## AT0MAC

I know terrible little about VRMs, but as far as I can see all high-end Asus boards use the ZF906, just like my Z370 X Code board does, so I would imagine thats a great VRM capable of some nice OC










I replaced the thermal pads the other day with some Alphacool 14 W/mk high end pads, and have aimed a fan downwards above the heatsinks, to give it the best possible chance.


----------



## wingman99

asdkj1740 said:


> there is nothing to do with other brands' vrm cooling.
> gigabyte could have been better or even won among others.
> 
> https://www.reddit.com/r/intel/comments/7dz5qy/gigabyte_z370_aorus_gaming_7_high_vrm_temps/
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HKeGOkJoiIA
> https://www.reddit.com/r/intel/comments/7dz5qy/gigabyte_z370_aorus_gaming_7_high_vrm_temps/dq5dsfp/
> 
> i also tested this out and found that changing to thicker thermal pads significantly helps reducing vrm temp and avoiding throttling that used to be happened with the stock pad.


There is nothing wrong with Gigabyte VRMs I have not seen any failures or complaints of them not working correctly. Gigabytes VRM temperatures are fine. 120c MTTF (mean time to failure) 138,567,8490 Hours. http://www.onsemi.com/PowerSolutions/reliability.do?part=NTMFS4C10NT1G That is a long time till failure.

I see ASUS throttle with the same utilization in the same price range as Gigabyte. The reason there is no news on the other manufactures Z370 VRMs they don't have temp sensor reading for the public to scrutinize.


----------



## asdkj1740

wingman99 said:


> There is nothing wrong with Gigabyte VRMs I have not seen any failures or complaints of them not working correctly. Gigabytes VRM temperatures are fine. 120c MTTF (mean time to failure) 138,567,8490 Hours. http://www.onsemi.com/PowerSolutions/reliability.do?part=NTMFS4C10NT1G That is a long time till failure.
> 
> I see ASUS throttle with the same utilization in the same price range as Gigabyte. The reason there is no news on the other manufactures Z370 VRMs they don't have temp sensor reading for the public to scrutinize.


i dont really want to accuse gigabyte doing these on purposes. 
120c is fine 150c shut down point, you can keep saying these to the general.
but not to someone who cares about performance and the lifetimeo of the whole vrm including capacitiors.
again, gigabyte could have avioded throttling at all if they went for better and thicker thermal pad.
and i will tell you some good 3w/mk~5w/mk thermal pad is cheap as **** with respect to manufactuing side, namely go check those prices on china.


----------



## wingman99

asdkj1740 said:


> i dont really want to accuse gigabyte doing these on purposes.
> 120c is fine 150c shut down point, you can keep saying these to the general.
> but not to someone who cares about performance and the lifetimeo of the whole vrm including capacitiors.
> again, gigabyte could have avioded throttling at all if they went for better and thicker thermal pad.
> and i will tell you some good 3w/mk~5w/mk thermal pad is cheap as **** with respect to manufactuing side, namely go check those prices on china.


Again ASUS could avoid thermal throttle also with better thermal pads and they did not. Also Gigabyte VRM will last just as long as ASUS in the same price range.

Again whole Gigabyte VRM is fine, the power mostfets 120c will last 138,567,8490 Hours. With the VRM at 100c the capacitors are only 60c on my Z370 HD3 motherboard lasting 500,000 hours.


----------



## asdkj1740

wingman99 said:


> Again ASUS could avoid thermal throttle also with better thermal pads and they did not. Also Gigabyte VRM will last just as long as ASUS in the same price range.
> 
> Again whole Gigabyte VRM is fine, the power mostfets 120c will last 138,567,8490 Hours. With the VRM at 100c the capacitors are only 60c on my Z370 HD3 motherboard lasting 500,000 hours.


any sources for the asus z370 changes aftering replacing better/thicker pads?

if you see the links i provided above, cutting off only the washer (making tighter contact) is already enough to solve the "overheat" problem, a better mk/w rated thermal pad is not essentail but just some extra help.
or check this below link out that i recently found:
https://www.reddit.com/r/intel/comments/8f3wvb/save_vrm_temps_for_gigabyte_ultra_gaming_20/

whats more is that even asus really did what you said, that only means gigabyte is as bad as asus. its still not enough to justify the insufficient mounting presssure problem on gigabyte z370.


that build-in thermal sensor is not located inside the mosfet.
http://www.overclock.net/forum/27018601-post1777.html


----------



## Silencer23

Nichicon FP10K (asus) vs FP12K (asrock) - Does it matter for system reliability in extreme heat countries when no OC is involved ?


----------



## asdkj1740

Silencer23 said:


> Nichicon FP10K (asus) vs FP12K (asrock) - Does it matter for system reliability in extreme heat countries when no OC is involved ?


no differences.

how extreme heat is your countries???
35c ambient? it is still pretty fine for 10k or above.


----------



## asdkj1740

a z370 model from galax, china district specific?

http://www.expreview.com/60934-2.html
isl69318 vrm controller
using isl6596 drivers
1*MUD1516 & 1*MDU1514, if you treat this vrm as doubling.


----------



## asdkj1740

GBT-MatthewH said:


> VRM designs moving forward will follow the X470 focus on performance


good to hear that, and i will sure verify them.
the ultra gaming x470 has almost the same design as z370 ultra gaming2.0, so this new x470 is a good one to testify it


----------



## wingman99

asdkj1740 said:


> any sources for the asus z370 changes aftering replacing better/thicker pads?


Folks just use a fan on ASUS VRM for throttling, they don't know what the temperature is so they can't tell like folks can on Gigabyte. If Gigabyte did not have a VRM reading for the public we would not be having this conversation, it would be treated the same as ASUS who does not want the public to know what the VRM temperature is.


----------



## scracy

wingman99 said:


> Folks just use a fan on ASUS VRM for throttling, they don't know what the temperature is so they can't tell like folks can on Gigabyte. If Gigabyte did not have a VRM reading for the public we would not be having this conversation, it would be treated the same as ASUS who does not want the public to know what the VRM temperature is.


Some Asus boards DO have a VRM temperature sensor as mine DOES!!! as does the Apex. The only issue is that I cant monitor the temperature of the VRM with AIDA64 because it does not appear in the monitor tab of the UEFI.


----------



## wingman99

scracy said:


> Some Asus boards DO have a VRM temperature sensor as mine DOES!!! as does the Apex. The only issue is that I cant monitor the temperature of the VRM with AIDA64 because it does not appear in the monitor tab of the UEFI.


I'm comparing low to mid level ASUS that don't have VRM temperature monitoring for the public like Gigabyte does. And on ASUS Z370 some of the boards when they first were produced they allowed VRM monitoring and then discontinued allowing VRM monitoring further into production. ASUS decided to hide the VRM temperature.


----------



## KGPrime

Running 4.8Ghz all core boost on delided 8700k Asrock Fatal1ty and Cryorig Quad Lumi 1x120mm air, gaming my cpu temps hardly even reach even 50c. Cinebench, and or any normal real word testing i've done, hits 59c max. But really in games like 43c actually, at least in Quake Champions. 

Vrm actual temps, i don't know, but it's obviously a non issue if i put my hand near them or my cpu or exhaust it's only slightly warm. 

My plan when i bought all my stuff was just what i got. To run 4.8Ghz boost on 120mm Air with sub 65c temps, cheaper lower mhz ram and manually overclock to min 3.2Ghz with decent timings. It worked out perfectly, better than i expected actually and it took mere minutes to do all said and done. Ram is 32Gb Gskill bdie 2800mhz @ 3.2Ghz 14-14-14-35 2t. 

About +400Mhz on ram should be almost a given with decent sticks and board not having to loosen your timings or even raise voltage much if at all. I raised mine .01volts for the hell of it and just left it. I've never used xmp actually and don't really recommend buying much more expensive high clocked ram and relying on xmp if you don't have to since it can take less time to do it manually and not have to dick with xmp/bios issues which often occur. 

For cpu i only tried two things. One, offset with llc - random stab guess at settings, actually just used similar settings that i used on my Ivy Bridge and Biostar mobo, and it worked out to be nearly the same voltages at idle and under load, but still saw some voltage spiking on idle and i didn't like that so i just went with a manual static voltage of 1.26v, which was considerably better over all, it even dropped my highest temps by a good couple of degrees alone and didn't really affect my idle temps at all. It's basically 27-32c either way. 

I mean with manual voltage it errs towards 31c as opposed to 29c average, so pretty much nothing. I'm pretty sure this chip and board could do 5Ghz boost on 120mm air and never see 70c under normal usage or gaming, but it's good enough for me as is, i'm happy with it and don't want to have to possibly compromise my ram timings. I mean i spent mere minutes in my bios and it has ran perfectly. I did plan it, and somewhat expected it, but was still surprised that it worked out a bit better than i assumed. I thought my temps would be like 6-8c higher. 

Could possibly run less volts but doesn't seem to matter much and i'd rather give it slightly more that sufficient power than trying to run at the edge of instability since temps are a non issue anyway. Ill basically never touch it again as long as i own this pc, or might try bump to 5Ghz a few years from now when i'm nearing th itch to upgrade again, if even.


----------



## wingman99

KGPrime said:


> About +400Mhz on ram should be almost a given with decent sticks and board not having to loosen your timings or even raise voltage much if at all. I raised mine .01volts for the hell of it and just left it. I've never used xmp actually and don't really recommend buying much more expensive high clocked ram and relying on xmp if you don't have to since it can take less time to do it manually and not have to dick with xmp/bios issues which often occur.


XMP/BIOS isuses don't occur with my Gigabyte Z370 HD3 and G.SKill 3200 CL14 when using XMP. Also looking at the secondary timings with XMP enabled they are different than with XMP disabled. What XMP/BIOS issues do you have with ASRock?


----------



## Scotty99

Ya i used to run 4.8 because the volts were so much lower but really when you think about it why are we buying high end components and coolers to run at voltages entry level boards could handle lol, 5.0+ or bust


----------



## GeneO

wingman99 said:


> I'm comparing low to mid level ASUS that don't have VRM temperature monitoring for the public like Gigabyte does. And on ASUS Z370 some of the boards when they first were produced they allowed VRM monitoring and then discontinued allowing VRM monitoring further into production. ASUS decided to hide the VRM temperature.


Didn't hide mine and it gets to 70c under heaviest load (AVX), usually no more than 60c under load. That is good isn't it?


----------



## AT0MAC

wingman99 said:


> Again ASUS could avoid thermal throttle also with better thermal pads and they did not. Also Gigabyte VRM will last just as long as ASUS in the same price range.


I exchanged my thermal pads on X Code Z370 to a 14W/mk 1.5mm pad, up from the original 1.3mm pad at whatever W/mk the factory use.
I kind of wish I had measured temps before, but I am very sure I will not experience any throttling or VRM problems with a setup like this.


----------



## KGPrime

wingman99 said:


> XMP/BIOS isuses don't occur with my Gigabyte Z370 HD3 and G.SKill 3200 CL14 when using XMP. Also looking at the secondary timings with XMP enabled they are different than with XMP disabled. What XMP/BIOS issues do you have with ASRock?


Well i had none, because i never tried it. I've never used xmp. Just seen a lot of posts about it over the years. The point is really more that you don't necessarily have to buy much more expensive ram to get similar performance or overclock. Like when i bought a month ago the difference in cost between the ram i got and the most popular rams out there was 80 bucks minimum, which is a lot when it is already nearing 400 dollars or more. And those rams were cas 15-16 at best 3.2Ghz. I couldn't even find cas 14 3.2Ghz so i bought 2800 cas 14 and it overclocked to 3.2Ghz at cas 14 in a matter of minutes ( seconds really), and cost a lot less. That's all i'm saying. 

As far as secondary timings, not really a huge issue. I mean coming from a "it's good enough" standpoint. 

It's not really a point of nitpicking decimals. And whatever someone chooses for their needs is fine for them. It's simply this. It was cheaper and did what higher cost sticks and xmp do and seems pretty respectable for what it's worth. 

Example my kit first vs other random sample similar range kits or higher range kits with xmp. I actually couldn't find one that beat it handily off hand, though there's surely many. 

Respectable enough.. Maybe it could even be better, but i actually doubt it, and or at least i'm not going to bother spending the time changing it and rebooting a few times to even see, that's kind of how much i don't really care because the slight difference is nothing really tangible in the grande scheme of things. I wouldn't say i'm uninterested to see similar or higher speed kits with similar timings, like 3200-3600 kit marks, though this is the "vrm" thread i guess.
So, Vrm on Asrock are solid. :thumb:


----------



## AlphaC

GeneO said:


> Didn't hide mine and it gets to 70c under heaviest load (AVX), usually no more than 60c under load. That is good isn't it?


Is your board variant the OnSemi one?

It's good.

AVX2 and AVX are not the same by the way , AVX2 runs hotter.



AT0MAC said:


> I know terrible little about VRMs, but as far as I can see all high-end Asus boards use the ZF906, just like my Z370 X Code board does, so I would imagine thats a great VRM capable of some nice OC
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I replaced the thermal pads the other day with some Alphacool 14 W/mk high end pads, and have aimed a fan downwards above the heatsinks, to give it the best possible chance.


Eh I wouldn't worry about the ROG boards. The STRIX boards are problematic without airflow though.


----------



## GeneO

AlphaC said:


> Is your board variant the OnSemi one?
> 
> It's good.
> 
> AVX2 and AVX are not the same by the way , AVX2 runs hotter.
> 
> 
> Eh I wouldn't worry about the ROG boards. The STRIX boards are problematic without airflow though.


Yes I know that. This is an 8700 with latest prime96 and OCCT so AVX2. 

I didn't know there were variants of this board. I thought they all were Vishay ZF906. More info?


----------



## wingman99

GeneO said:


> Didn't hide mine and it gets to 70c under heaviest load (AVX), usually no more than 60c under load. That is good isn't it?


ASUS Maximus X Code is not a low to mid level motherboard that I was comparing.


----------



## asdkj1740

wingman99 said:


> Folks just use a fan on ASUS VRM for throttling, they don't know what the temperature is so they can't tell like folks can on Gigabyte. If Gigabyte did not have a VRM reading for the public we would not be having this conversation, it would be treated the same as ASUS who does not want the public to know what the VRM temperature is.


it is not the point of having vrm temp sensor or not / vrm mosfet is bad / vrm heatsink is bad, it is all about the mounting pressure that should never be not enough in origin. you are right in the sense that gigabyte vrm temp sensor helps users to dig in more easily about the reason behind vrm "overheat". enthusiasts will still find out the root of the problem no matter what.

unless you have evidents to show asus z370 mobo has insignificant mounting pressure on vrm heatsink that can be solved by tightening the vrm heatsink screw more/replacing stock pad with thicker one, pointing asus wont help gigabyte a bit.


----------



## wingman99

asdkj1740 said:


> it is not the point of having vrm temp sensor or not / vrm mosfet is bad / vrm heatsink is bad, it is all about the mounting pressure that should never be not enough in origin. you are right in the sense that gigabyte vrm temp sensor helps users to dig in more easily about the reason behind vrm "overheat". enthusiasts will still find out the root of the problem no matter what.
> 
> unless you have evidents to show asus z370 mobo has insignificant mounting pressure on vrm heatsink that can be solved by tightening the vrm heatsink screw more/replacing stock pad with thicker one, pointing asus wont help gigabyte a bit.


That is my point you can't prove anything with ASUS VRM heatsink on low to mid level motherboards, they don't have VRM temperature sensor for the pubic to see. Enthusiasts buy motherboards with public reading VRM temperature sensors and more efficient MOSFET RDS.


----------



## AlphaC

GeneO said:


> Yes I know that. This is an 8700 with latest prime96 and OCCT so AVX2.
> 
> I didn't know there were variants of this board. I thought they all were Vishay ZF906. More info?


I thought you had the STRIX Z370-E... nevermind.


----------



## encrypted11

Just yet another supplementary pic of the sinopower variant of the ASRock Z370 Gaming-ITX/ac.

Got another for a separate build.


----------



## ezveedub

Little off topic guys, but who here can possibly identify a SMD on a Japanese Tx module from 2008-2012 period? I've run out of options trying to find out how to identify this SMD that got fried on a unit that's discontinued. Its marked 47 20V and the PCB location is marked C3, so I figure its a tantalum capacitor....if anyone has a better ID, PM me and I'll delete this.


----------



## VeritronX

Only half on topic I guess, but I'm building an upgrade / replacement for my mate and I got the asrock B360M ITX/AC board.. and I'm pretty impressed with it. I'm not sure what the actual VRM solution is but the heatsink on it is pretty nice.. it's about an inch tall and looks like it has pretty good surface area, and it's screwed down as well. This board seems like a great choice for a small system with a locked cpu that you want to just work. It's also only half the price of the Z370 Gaming ITX/AC board I got for myself earlier so worth a look. This board with an i5 8400 and 16GB of 2666 C16 ram cost $600 posted from Newegg in the US to Australia, which is about $450 USD.


----------



## VeritronX

I tried to post a pic with that previous post and it didn't show up, and it won't let me edit it.. Here's the image on imgur instead =(


----------



## elmor

ezveedub said:


> Little off topic guys, but who here can possibly identify a SMD on a Japanese Tx module from 2008-2012 period? I've run out of options trying to find out how to identify this SMD that got fried on a unit that's discontinued. Its marked 47 20V and the PCB location is marked C3, so I figure its a tantalum capacitor....if anyone has a better ID, PM me and I'll delete this.


Most likely: https://www.chip1stop.com/web/USA/en/dispDetail.do?partId=TOKN-0012669&mpn=TEESVD1D476M-12R

6032 (6.0x3.2 mm) or 7343 (7.3x4.3mm) casing.


----------



## ezveedub

elmor said:


> Most likely: https://www.chip1stop.com/web/USA/en/dispDetail.do?partId=TOKN-0012669&mpn=TEESVD1D476M-12R
> 
> 6032 (6.0x3.2 mm) or 7343 (7.3x4.3mm) casing.


Most likely that SMD cap for sure, but I actually called the company of this module and explained the issue and it seems they can repair this unit with the fried SMD cap. Picture I posted was one I found online of the values since my is toast, lol. Thanks for the info.


----------



## rootmoto

@GBT-MatthewH Is the Z370 Aorus Gaming 5 2OZ Copper PCB in terms of thickness?


----------



## GBT-MatthewH

rootmoto said:


> @GBT-MatthewH Is the Z370 Aorus Gaming 5 2OZ Copper PCB in terms of thickness?


Nope, but it is 6 layer.


----------



## rootmoto

GBT-MatthewH said:


> Nope, but it is 6 layer.


Ah ok, so how many OZ copper PCB does it use by the way?


----------



## cba1986

is there a big difference in vrms wise. between the asus z370-a prime and the asrock k6?


----------



## AlphaC

cba1986 said:


> is there a big difference in vrms wise. between the asus z370-a prime and the asrock k6?


Yes , but it typically matters to people that video encode (AVX/AVX2) , do scientific calculations with AVX instructions, or have terrible airflow in their case. If it's just for 5-5.2GHz gaming without a delid, neither will be a large issue as without a delid you're limited by CPU cooling to around 140-150W.

Asrock K6 is using Dual N mosfets (low + high side mosfet copackaged) with 10 of them for CPU while the Asus Z370-A is using Vishay / Onsemi with 8 sets for CPU (high + low side separate). The PWM signal per Asrock is 5 PWM signals for the CPU V_Core with 5 ISL6596. The Asus Z370-A is using 4 PWM signals with an unidentified driver (4 of them).

The major features from Asrock K6 that set it apart are the dual BIOS and heatpipe. You could argue the use of all Japanese capacitors at the CPU section and 60A inductors are nice too , in addition to dual LAN solution.


----------



## cba1986

AlphaC said:


> Yes , but it typically matters to people that video encode (AVX/AVX2) , do scientific calculations with AVX instructions, or have terrible airflow in their case. If it's just for 5-5.2GHz gaming without a delid, neither will be a large issue as without a delid you're limited by CPU cooling to around 140-150W.
> 
> Asrock K6 is using Dual N mosfets (low + high side mosfet copackaged) with 10 of them for CPU while the Asus Z370-A is using Vishay / Onsemi with 8 sets for CPU (high + low side separate). The PWM signal per Asrock is 5 PWM signals for the CPU V_Core with 5 ISL6596. The Asus Z370-A is using 4 PWM signals with an unidentified driver (4 of them).
> 
> The major features from Asrock K6 that set it apart are the dual BIOS and heatpipe. You could argue the use of all Japanese capacitors at the CPU section and 60A inductors are nice too , in addition to dual LAN solution.


thank you very much for your explanation.


----------



## wingman99

I'm looking at the ASUS TUF Z370 Plus Gaming. How good is the VRM?


----------



## AlphaC

TUF is terrible now (in all aspects , it seems they even dropped the warranty from 5 year to 3 years). It's no longer like the Sabertooth days.


----------



## Volkswagen

Asus Z370-Gaming with 8700K Delided- safe for 5 GHZ Air Cooled?


----------



## AlphaC

Volkswagen said:


> Asus Z370-Gaming with 8700K Delided- safe for 5 GHZ Air Cooled?


Should be fine, just not my #1 pick at that price point. The Taichi is around $200 while the STRIX boards are around $180 ; the Fatal1ty K6 from Asrock runs around $150-160 typically. If you're looking for RGB there's also the ~$210 Z370 Gaming 7 with a top tier VRM but I feel the Taichi has the better overall design in terms of usability.

You're going to need some serious air cooling if you don't delid. I think EHume was only able to get 5GHz with air cooler using the NH-U14S and NH-D15 level coolers, he didn't delid.


----------



## zGunBLADEz

wingman99 said:


> I'm comparing low to mid level ASUS that don't have VRM temperature monitoring for the public like Gigabyte does. And on ASUS Z370 some of the boards when they first were produced they allowed VRM monitoring and then discontinued allowing VRM monitoring further into production. ASUS decided to hide the VRM temperature.


so any comments from asus that i missed?

How they can advertize this board in the "ROG" with a serious face and we are ok with it.

Cant wait for the 8core mainstream cpus from intel 10nm 8 cores lol we are going to see whats good


----------



## gammagoat

zGunBLADEz said:


> so any comments from asus that i missed?
> 
> How they can advertize this board in the "ROG" with a serious face and we are ok with it.
> 
> Cant wait for the 8core mainstream cpus from intel 10nm 8 cores lol we are going to see whats good


Not ok with it myself, really not ok with the missing/removed vrm sensor on my Max X. The fact that they will not speak on this issue, has me going with a different board manufacturer in the future.

My 8 core will likely be going on a Asrock board.


----------



## wingman99

gammagoat said:


> Not ok with it myself, really not ok with the missing/removed vrm sensor on my Max X. The fact that they will not speak on this issue, has me going with a different board manufacturer in the future.
> 
> My 8 core will likely be going on a Asrock board.


If I remember correctly ASRock does not have a VRM sensor for the public.


----------



## gammagoat

wingman99 said:


> If I remember correctly ASRock does not have a VRM sensor for the public.


Guess they cant lie about it then.


----------



## VickNet

Hi, I am again...

I changed the original pad, and I put it Fujipoly thermal pads:
/ mod/smart Ultra Extreme XR-m Thermal Pad - 60 x 50 x 1.0 - Thermal Conductivity 17.0 W/mK

no effect has been given, all the same degrees I have at VRM MOS.
the screw are tightened very well... 

Z370 Gaming 5, 8700k (delided) 4.9 Ghz, 1.35V (15 min Aida64 stres stest - 100c) 
can contact be weak? need more tight? how they solved this problem, that others are ok, 85c in aida strees

there are some washers, maybe they polish a bit, and they'll get better

http://funkyimg.com/i/2GeWg.jpg

Generally, problems are not in games 70C-80C VRM, but on other MB, they have 60-70C VRM Gaming and Stress Test.

Others who changed the original pad on fujipoly, helped them, but they did not ((


----------



## tiryn

Hey guys.

Running into VRM heat problems trying to get my 8700k stable at 5ghz. 

My hardware:

Delidded 8700k looks to be an average or poor chip
Nzxt Kraken X52 cooler (Water AIO 240 rad)
Asus Prime z370-a motherboard
Corsair rm750x white 750w power supply
Corsair ddr4 16gb (2x8gb) vengeance rgb 3200mhz 1.35v memory
6 case fans: 3 front intake (radiator obstructing top two), 2 top outtake, 1 rear outtake.

However during prolonged stability testing I've noticed in HWiNFO64 that the IA and RING VR Thermal Alert is being triggered and I think thats whats causing the CPU to often downclock itself.

The CPU temps are on average 62-69c and max 71-81c with 1 hr 40mins of testing so there is plenty of headroom.

I'm primarily using blend Prime95 v26.6 (no avx/fma) to test stability and it's not even the most heat generating/power hungry test I could run.

I've tried disabling the VRM Thermal Control in the BIOS and indeed the clocks stay stable during testing but I have no way to monitor the VRM temps and it eventually crashes. It doesn't crash when I keep VRM thermal control on.

BIOS Settings: 

Vcore:
manual 1.35v (once I find the best voltage will switch to offset/adaptive)
after 1hr 20 mins of prime95 load I read average 1.304v in HWiNFO64.

DIGI+ VRM:

LLC - lvl 5
current capability - 140%
spread spectrum - disabled
t.probe
phase control - extreme
vrm thermal control - enabled

Is this normal? Should I RMA the motherboard?
Am I using the wrong settings putting too much strain on the VRM unnecessarily?
I might try tightening the VRM heatsinks but they don't seem to have normal screws unless they are on the back of the motherboard?
Should I be installing a fan to cool the VRMs? MB came with fan holder for that purpose.

I have ordered a cheap refurbished Asus Maximus X Hero which I can still cancel or return later. I'm hoping to have better results with it.


----------



## asdkj1740

http://www.xfastest.com/thread-219498-1-1.html
Z370 AORUS GAMING 7-OP 
benchmark wise, Intel Optane Memory helps a lot.


more precisely speaking, Intel Optane Memory is included and preinstalled. it still eats one of the m.2 slots.


----------



## AlphaC

VickNet said:


> Hi, I am again...
> 
> I changed the original pad, and I put it Fujipoly thermal pads:
> / mod/smart Ultra Extreme XR-m Thermal Pad - 60 x 50 x 1.0 - Thermal Conductivity 17.0 W/mK
> 
> no effect has been given, all the same degrees I have at VRM MOS.
> the screw are tightened very well...
> 
> Z370 Gaming 5, 8700k (delided) 4.9 Ghz, 1.35V (15 min Aida64 stres stest - 100c)
> can contact be weak? need more tight? how they solved this problem, that others are ok, 85c in aida strees
> 
> there are some washers, maybe they polish a bit, and they'll get better
> 
> http://funkyimg.com/i/2GeWg.jpg
> 
> Generally, problems are not in games 70C-80C VRM, but on other MB, they have 60-70C VRM Gaming and Stress Test.
> 
> Others who changed the original pad on fujipoly, helped them, but they did not ((


Check the imprint on your VRM thermal pads , if it's poor then you need to check to see the plastic washer isn't preventing the proper mounting pressure on the mosfets.



tiryn said:


> Hey guys.
> 
> Running into VRM heat problems trying to get my 8700k stable at 5ghz.
> 
> My hardware:
> 
> Delidded 8700k looks to be an average or poor chip
> Nzxt Kraken X52 cooler (Water AIO 240 rad)
> Asus Prime z370-a motherboard
> Corsair rm750x white 750w power supply
> Corsair ddr4 16gb (2x8gb) vengeance rgb 3200mhz 1.35v memory
> 6 case fans: 3 front intake (radiator obstructing top two), 2 top outtake, 1 rear outtake.
> 
> However during prolonged stability testing I've noticed in HWiNFO64 that the IA and RING VR Thermal Alert is being triggered and I think thats whats causing the CPU to often downclock itself.
> 
> The CPU temps are on average 62-69c and max 71-81c with 1 hr 40mins of testing so there is plenty of headroom.
> 
> I'm primarily using blend Prime95 v26.6 (no avx/fma) to test stability and it's not even the most heat generating/power hungry test I could run.
> 
> I've tried disabling the VRM Thermal Control in the BIOS and indeed the clocks stay stable during testing but I have no way to monitor the VRM temps and it eventually crashes. It doesn't crash when I keep VRM thermal control on.
> 
> BIOS Settings:
> 
> Vcore:
> manual 1.35v (once I find the best voltage will switch to offset/adaptive)
> after 1hr 20 mins of prime95 load I read average 1.304v in HWiNFO64.
> 
> DIGI+ VRM:
> 
> LLC - lvl 5
> current capability - 140%
> spread spectrum - disabled
> t.probe
> phase control - extreme
> vrm thermal control - enabled
> 
> Is this normal? Should I RMA the motherboard?
> Am I using the wrong settings putting too much strain on the VRM unnecessarily?
> I might try tightening the VRM heatsinks but they don't seem to have normal screws unless they are on the back of the motherboard?
> Should I be installing a fan to cool the VRMs? MB came with fan holder for that purpose.
> 
> I have ordered a cheap refurbished Asus Maximus X Hero which I can still cancel or return later. I'm hoping to have better results with it.


It likely is hitting a thermal shutdown. I would say you need more airflow over the VRM. Without airflow it can easily hit 100°C+

If it's dropping down to 1.3V then it also may be just not enough voltage.

What PSU are you using?


----------



## VickNet

AlphaC said:


> Check the imprint on your VRM thermal pads , if it's poor then you need to check to see the plastic washer isn't preventing the proper mounting pressure on the mosfets.


ok, thx


----------



## tiryn

AlphaC said:


> It likely is hitting a thermal shutdown. I would say you need more airflow over the VRM. Without airflow it can easily hit 100°C+
> 
> If it's dropping down to 1.3V then it also may be just not enough voltage.
> 
> What PSU are you using?


Corsair rm750x white, 750w psu

I tried Asus Realbench v2.56 with above settings it failed. 

So I adjusted LLC to lvl 6 so it now only drops to 1.328v minimum and it passed 1 hr of stress testing no throttling or VR thermal alert trigger.

You're right without VRM thermal control on it could be there was too little voltage that was crashing it. 

But I did try 1.4v with it off aswell so there's a good chance it had enough voltage and crashed due to VRM overheating but yeah I can't say for sure. It could still be the case that I can't get it stable at 5ghz with any safe voltage.

I'll try a 4 hr Realbench later.

Am in the middle of OCCT testing. 20 mins and no VR Thermal Alert trigger yet. I'm now hoping it's only a problem with Prime95. I'll see after 1-2 hours.

But yeah if I can test my overclock with Realbench and OCCT with no throttling I'll be happy and might keep the board because in everyday usage I likely won't hit VRM issues although the Maximus does look great hmm


----------



## asdkj1740

1mm is not enough!!!!!!!!! i said that it needs 1.5mm at least!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## asdkj1740

VickNet said:


> ok, thx


you should have some pads left? 
double them(stick two vertically)....to make them 2mm thick....or break the washer.
1mm is not enough, as shown on the stock pad........


----------



## AlphaC

@VickNet

This is an example of poor pressure:














(source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HKeGOkJoiIA)


----------



## VickNet

asdkj1740 said:


> you should have some pads left?
> double them(stick two vertically)....to make them 2mm thick....or break the washer.
> 1mm is not enough, as shown on the stock pad........


am I the old ones, to unite them, to put one over another? will not the contact be worse?

I'll try to do something, maybe better make the washers thinner? will be better contact, hope, stronger, more pressure

but if I totally remove the washers, and I get the radiator, the mb is a bit bent, nothing? when he stays in the cage, he will straighten


----------



## asdkj1740

VickNet said:


> am I the old ones, to unite them, to put one over another? will not the contact be worse?
> 
> I'll try to do something, maybe better make the washers thinner? will be better contact, hope, stronger, more pressure
> 
> but if I totally remove the washers, and I get the radiator, the mb is a bit bent, nothing? when he stays in the cage, he will straighten


if you can return it to the store, go exchange for 1.5mm thickness pad.

not the old ones, try the new ones first if you have some new pad spares left.


removing the washer will surely then bend the mobo, therefore i dont recommand doing this, replacing stock pad with 1.5mm thinckness ones can solve the problem. keep in mind that you still have to tighten the screws very evenly, and remmember fill the space next to the washer so that you wont accidentally tighten one side too much.
https://holland.pk/uptow/i4/429b0c4f05dac58bb247aa09b7bb360a.jpg


if you dont have spares, try to place the doubled up thermal pad like these....
https://holland.pk/uptow/i4/d167d46550e1b80cd0c0bbabb1803c16.jpg


----------



## asdkj1740

https://www.gigabyte.com/Motherboard/Z370-AORUS-ULTRA-GAMING-20-rev-10#support-dl-driver-audio

do not update the 8433 reatek driver being avaliable on gigabyte website!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
the control panel cant be opened up once again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
and the smart amp is reset to level 1 for alc1220 now!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
level 3 helps a lot in gaming!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
****!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

matthewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww
how to open the realtek audio control panel to enable level 3 smart amp on the lastest driver provided on your gigabyte z370 ultra gaming 2.0 website!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

stay in 8346 version guys!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## tiryn

Just finished the 4 hr Realbench and no VR throttling and it passed so I'm reasonably happy its stable at 5ghz and 1.328v under load. 

Earlier I noticed at higher voltages VR throttling starts occurring in Realbench aswell.

This really is just crazy I'm hitting the limits of the VRM's cooling at just 1.3v (maybe even lower) in Prime95 and 1.344v in Realbench. 

I kinda expected to be able to input up to Intel's max spec of 1.52v or at least whats considered safe 1.4-1.45v without encountering this. 

I hope the Maximus X Hero will perform better. 

I'd rather not have to add a small fan to the VRM area. 

I could try configuring one of the top case fans over the VRM as intake and see if that helps but I'm dubious as it is offset so it wouldn't blow directly onto the heatsink but above it.


----------



## VickNet

asdkj1740 said:


> if you can return it to the store, go exchange for 1.5mm thickness pad.
> 
> not the old ones, try the new ones first if you have some new pad spares left.
> 
> 
> removing the washer will surely then bend the mobo, therefore i dont recommand doing this, replacing stock pad with 1.5mm thinckness ones can solve the problem. keep in mind that you still have to tighten the screws very evenly, and remmember fill the space next to the washer so that you wont accidentally tighten one side too much.
> https://holland.pk/uptow/i4/429b0c4f05dac58bb247aa09b7bb360a.jpg
> 
> 
> if you dont have spares, try to place the doubled up thermal pad like these....
> https://holland.pk/uptow/i4/d167d46550e1b80cd0c0bbabb1803c16.jpg


I do not have a backup, and I can not get them back ...
over those that I put myself 1.0mm, to put over the old ones? do you think it will help? I understand there will be more pressure ...

thx for reply


----------



## asdkj1740

VickNet said:


> I do not have a backup, and I can not get them back ...
> over those that I put myself 1.0mm, to put over the old ones? do you think it will help? I understand there will be more pressure ...
> 
> thx for reply


you should try it out as you have nothing to lose now.

or save those extremely good and expensive 1mm pads....buy some cheap pads with 1.5mm thick.


----------



## VickNet

asdkj1740 said:


> you should try it out as you have nothing to lose now.
> 
> or save those extremely good and expensive 1mm pads....buy some cheap pads with 1.5mm thick.


hmm, ok, thx


----------



## asdkj1740

seems @br0da needs to put this on #1:

to further improve gigabyte z370 vrm cooling performance (avoiding throttlings of vrm and cpu), replace the 1mm stock pad with
1.5MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM !!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## asdkj1740

VickNet said:


> hmm, ok, thx


i remember someone in reddit replaced the stock pad with the same third party extremely expensive theraml pad as yours, although his is 1.5mm/2mm, he said the improvment is very huge.


anyways your experience is crucial!!! thank you man, you just show us that replacing the stock pad with the same 1mm thick ones wont help reducing vrm temp (at all). so the problem then goes to thickness, only.
what i was guessing the root is about freaking poor stock pad quaility is totally wrong sorry about that.


----------



## AlphaC

tiryn said:


> Just finished the 4 hr Realbench and no VR throttling and it passed so I'm reasonably happy its stable at 5ghz and 1.328v under load.
> 
> Earlier I noticed at higher voltages VR throttling starts occurring in Realbench aswell.
> 
> This really is just crazy I'm hitting the limits of the VRM's cooling at just 1.3v (maybe even lower) in Prime95 and 1.344v in Realbench.
> 
> I kinda expected to be able to input up to Intel's max spec of 1.52v or at least whats considered safe 1.4-1.45v without encountering this.
> 
> I hope the Maximus X Hero will perform better.
> 
> I'd rather not have to add a small fan to the VRM area.
> 
> I could try configuring one of the top case fans over the VRM as intake and see if that helps but I'm dubious as it is offset so it wouldn't blow directly onto the heatsink but above it.


Most people can hit 5GHz at 1.3V and they won't be using AVX workloads. Realbench's video render component does have some AVX in it but it's not AVX2 so it doesn't constantly hammer the CPU like Prime95 or AIDA64 FPU.

The Maximus X Hero will do much better , that's for sure. The components generate much less heat.

What's your case airflow like?

------------

edit :







https://www.overclock3d.net/reviews/cpu_mainboard/gigabyte_z370_aorus_ultra_gaming_2_0_review/7

GBT Ultra Gaming 2.0 still may have issues with VRM heatsink.


----------



## tiryn

AlphaC said:


> What's your case airflow like?


Got 3 Corsair LL120 fans in front as intake, radiator is attached to 2.

2 LL120s in top and 1 in rear as exhaust.

The 2 radiator fans are linked to CPU temps, the rest are linked to GPU temps.

The radiator fans are set to go from 650 idle to 1500 rpm at 70c.
The rest are 650 idle 1250 rpm at 70c.

Case is Corsair Crystal 460x so its fairly compact.


----------



## asdkj1740

AlphaC said:


> edit :
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0wuT7cCgOCg
> 
> 
> https://www.overclock3d.net/reviews/cpu_mainboard/gigabyte_z370_aorus_ultra_gaming_2_0_review/7
> 
> GBT Ultra Gaming 2.0 still may have issues with VRM heatsink.


exactly the same as my initial experience.


----------



## tiryn

So Gigabyte Ultra Gaming 1 & 2 have the same VRM heating problem I have with my similarly priced ASUS Prime Z370-A. 

OCD seems to suggest hes tested similarly priced competitor boards from namely ASUS and MSI and they will perform much better but that's clearly not the case unless I've had bad luck? 

Can anyone confirm if this is usual or not for my particular ASUS board? Perhaps I can get it replaced.


----------



## GBT-MatthewH

tiryn said:


> OCD seems to suggest hes tested similarly priced competitor boards from namely ASUS and MSI and they will perform much better but that's clearly not the case unless I've had bad luck?


I would suggest that software monitoring for VRM temperatures will not give you apples to apples comparisons. A simple temperature gun would tell you the true temps of the VRM's if you want to compare different models with different components, sensors, and sensor placement. I have personally seen software report 30C lower than a temp gun shows on various boards... I encourage anyone with a temp gun to compare the software readouts to the actual readouts and let us know their experience.


----------



## WiSH2oo0

Sorry posted my question in the wrong thread.


----------



## VickNet

Hello again, regarding the VRM temperature.
Nothing helped, over the 1.0mm pad, I put over the original paddle from GB, also 1.0mm, and I totally have 2mm, but no effect.
I do not understand what the problem is, maybe just 1.5 a pad? 
15 min. Aida stress test, 100C, is it so? who can check? I checked the temperature with Aida64, and hwmonitor... I'm sorry, I did not have a laser scanner to check the temperature...

Below are screens,

I pinched the screws as hard as I could, but only a little doubted, to have some effect, to drop the degrees, but it did not help 

On the pictures you can see how the 1.0mm pad (Fujipoly) has no marks that it was well pressed, the contact is very weak it was practically no contact, and I put another pad on top so that the contact is better, but as I said, effect 0

Maybe too hard I got the screws, and in the middle of the radiator, did not press well?
Or is it just the temperature at VRM at Gigabyte?

Aida64: Stress test 15 min 100c VRM
Gaming: max 80c (example BF1) other games 60-70c VRM +/-
(i7 8700k delided) 5GHZ, 1.416V

I understand that there is little point in worrying, but yet, as far as I understand, others could have made the temperature a little bit smaller...
As far as I can see, on other plates, such as Asus, they have a maximum of 65-70C VRM
why Gigabyte has 100?

Maybe other sensor boards are placed further, that's what looks with 20-30C less? 
as mentioned by the user above „GBT-MatthewH”
Can anyone check?

Once in a lifetime i have a hardware product, and I've come across unpleasant moments, or?
I wanted to support Gigabyte,

This model (Aorus Gaming 5) has quite good features, compared to other models... and at good price...

By the way, weaken the screws a little? to correct MB? not to be doubted...

+ read pls:

http://funkyimg.com/i/2GoaH.png

There are 2 identical PCs, I do not understand, what's the problem? 

But, I was very curious to do this:
I tried at PCH to put the thermalpaste MX2, I removed the thermalpad and put the thermalpaste and still did not help, 0 effect
The contact between PCH crystal and radiator (PCH) is great, everything presses well, it's direct contact, but the effect 0, 0 Karl, 0!!! this not real!

The motherboard was procured in 2017, August-September
Can they now solve the problem?

P.s Last ver BIOS.

I'm very curious, why is this happening, and I want to know, just to me or not

Thx all for support.
I have no words, thank you for your attention...

;(

SCREENS:
https://imgur.com/a/QigfZpM

LOAD Difference:

http://funkyimg.com/i/2Goc1.jpg 1pc - this PC has not changed anything, neither the PCH pads nor thermal (VRM) pads... (procured - Jan.)
http://funkyimg.com/i/2Goc3.png 2pc

CPU Cooler: Kraken x62 280mm + 2x case fans.
Case: NZXT s340 Elite.

Good post)) - http://funkyimg.com/i/2Gof5.png


----------



## AlphaC

Your PCB is bent it looks like. That's why there wasn't enough contact.

The thermal pad should deform (indent) from the pressure of the mosfet pushing into it. It isn't supposed to sit on top of the mosfet.

Because it is a one piece heatsink it is important to tighten both sides gradually to maintain straightness.

Keep in mind anything over 1.5mm thermal pad thickness is pretty excessive , the maximum z-height of a Onsemi mosfet is around 1.1mm (it is with tolerance at 1mm +/-0.1mm).


----------



## VickNet

AlphaC said:


> Your PCB is bent it looks like. That's why there wasn't enough contact.
> 
> The thermal pad should deform (indent) from the pressure of the mosfet pushing into it. It isn't supposed to sit on top of the mosfet.
> 
> Because it is a one piece heatsink it is important to tighten both sides gradually to maintain straightness.
> 
> Keep in mind anything over 1.5mm thermal pad thickness is pretty excessive , the maximum z-height of a Onsemi mosfet is around 1.1mm (it is with tolerance at 1mm +/-0.1mm).


Okay, I'll defuse her, I'll fix it


----------



## asdkj1740

VickNet said:


> Okay, I'll defuse her, I'll fix it


your pic shows your mobo is bent too much. try to tighten two screws as even as you can.
1.5mm thickness is sure enough, so you should avoid tighten the screws too much.

your way (stacking up 2 separated thermal pads) should still have some improvement even there are little gaps between two pad reducing the heat transfer to the heatsink.
the best way is to buy a 1.5mm thick pad. go buy some cheap one....it is not wise to spend too much on third party thermal pads for z370.
thermal pad is not something you should reuse after, and the imprints are hard to recover to be flat surface after use, imo.


----------



## wingman99

AlphaC said:


> TUF is terrible now (in all aspects , it seems they even dropped the warranty from 5 year to 3 years). It's no longer like the Sabertooth days.


I was wondering if you know if I will have any problems in the future with ASUS using a metal cooler backplate? I saw small metal bumps near one one of the motherboard mounting holes.

Also when comparing the overclocking of TUF Z370-PLUS GAMING I thought it would do better than the Gigabyte Z370 HD3. However, it is worse I needed increased Vcore that caused my CPU temperature to increase 4c over what I was getting with Gigabyte at the same clock speed and stress test. Do you know why that is?


----------



## AlphaC

Because as stated multiple times in this thread , the TUF is horrible. It is a 4 phase design with only 4 high side fets and a doubled low side just to try to prevent overheating. There's no way you're going to pump 150W into a 6 core CPU with a 4 phase with any sort of efficiency. I had 6 PWM phases for my 4 core...

In fact, Raja @ ASUS stated already that ASUS won't fix LLC on TUF , Z370-P , STRIX z370-H because the V_Droop is "by Intel spec". In terms of PWM tuning, in order for them to have an adequate rise time the 4 phase boards likely need a crazy overshoot.

The Z370 HD3 is by no means a great board by any major metric except price, however it still has 4 phases with 2 mosfets per phase. So you have double the high side fets on it versus the TUF , meaning you need_ half _the current through each one when a phase turns on. Also having double the mosfets means you have half the effective RDS(on) , even if the high side conduction loss is not a major factor in overall heat production.

As a side note, if instead of constantly buying these cheapo boards you could have gotten an Asrock K6/ Extreme4 for example you wouldn't have these problems. On hardwareluxx's Z370 overclock listing all the non-AVX leaders are ROG Maximus , Taichi , and K6. There's a sprinkling of GBT Gaming 7 but due to Euro costs I suspect the ASUS/Asrock adoption is wider.


----------



## KGPrime

k6 is 167 dollars on Amazon right now, which is even cheaper than the Extreme 4. You cannot buy a better z370 performance board for the money.


----------



## wingman99

I was very happy with the Gigabyte Z370 HD3 CPU overclocking. It was the darn memory overclocking past stock 3200 speed. It was the auto secondary timings that was giving me trouble overclocking from 3200 to 3600. 3600 speed was stable until I rebooted 1-20 times. The ASUS TUF Z370 Plus Gaming does not do memory training so it is stable at 3600 speed 15-15-15-35 with all the reboots. I use my PC every day for everything so it needs to work well overclocked. So far everything is fine with ASUS TUF Z370 Plus Gaming at 5.0GHz and memory 3600 speed 15-15-15-35.


----------



## encrypted11

AlphaC said:


> Because as stated multiple times in this thread , the TUF is horrible. It is a 4 phase design with only 4 high side fets and a doubled low side just to try to prevent overheating. There's no way you're going to pump 150W into a 6 core CPU with a 4 phase with any sort of efficiency. I had 6 PWM phases for my 4 core...
> 
> In fact, Raja @ ASUS stated already that ASUS won't fix LLC on TUF , Z370-P , STRIX z370-H because the V_Droop is "by Intel spec". In terms of PWM tuning, in order for them to have an adequate rise time the 4 phase boards likely need a crazy overshoot.
> 
> The Z370 HD3 is by no means a great board by any major metric except price, however it still has 4 phases with 2 mosfets per phase. So you have double the high side fets on it versus the TUF , meaning you need_ half _the current through each one when a phase turns on. Also having double the mosfets means you have half the effective RDS(on) , even if the high side conduction loss is not a major factor in overall heat production.
> 
> As a side note, if instead of constantly buying these cheapo boards you could have gotten an Asrock K6/ Extreme4 for example you wouldn't have these problems. On hardwareluxx's Z370 overclock listing all the non-AVX leaders are ROG Maximus , Taichi , and K6. There's a sprinkling of GBT Gaming 7 but due to Euro costs I suspect the ASUS/Asrock adoption is wider.



https://rog.asus.com/forum/showthre...ion)-not-working-Bios-fix-required-ASAP/page9










Elmor on the 4 phase VRM design (also present on Strix-h)
https://rog.asus.com/forum/showthre...rking-Bios-fix-required-ASAP/page8#post680864


----------



## AlphaC

encrypted11, thanks for digging out the exact source

I didn't want to be airing dirty laundry , just stating facts.

edit: 

also if the z370 Gaming 5 is working properly (obviously it won't with a bent PCB)
here's what Xanxogaming attained







http://www.xanxogaming.com/reviews/gigabyte/z370aorusgaming5/5/

In the same review it attained 86°C in OCCT linpack AVX with 5.0 GHz @ 1.38v.

Not sure how accurate Tom's hardware is but they had a similar result in Prime95:
https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/gigabyte-z370-aorus-gaming-5-atx-motherboard,5569-4.html

This is in addition to the AVX-based findings by gecid (AIDA64 FPU) and overclockers.ua (LinX)


----------



## wingman99

I like to use the Intel specified Vdroop so that is not a problem for me overclocking to 5.0GHz with ASUS TUF Z370 Plus Gaming.


----------



## winter2

AlphaC said:


> encrypted11, thanks for digging out the exact source
> 
> I didn't want to be airing dirty laundry , just stating facts.
> 
> edit:
> 
> also if the z370 Gaming 5 is working properly (obviously it won't with a bent PCB)
> here's what Xanxogaming attained
> View attachment 190105
> 
> http://www.xanxogaming.com/reviews/gigabyte/z370aorusgaming5/5/
> 
> In the same review it attained 86°C in OCCT linpack AVX with 5.0 GHz @ 1.38v.
> 
> Not sure how accurate Tom's hardware is but they had a similar result in Prime95:
> https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/gigabyte-z370-aorus-gaming-5-atx-motherboard,5569-4.html
> 
> This is in addition to the AVX-based findings by gecid (AIDA64 FPU) and overclockers.ua (LinX)


I can also confirm no issues on my gaming 5 (5 GHz 1.4V) VRM temps about 70-80°C while avx loads and 60-70°C peaks during gaming.


----------



## wingman99

winter2 said:


> I can also confirm no issues on my gaming 5 (5 GHz 1.4V) VRM temps about 70-80°C while avx loads and 60-70°C peaks during gaming.


That is great temperatures.:thumb:


----------



## tiryn

So I received my Maximus X Hero today and sold the Prime -A on the same day! 

My Maximus has a VRM sensor (yay!) and I haven't seen it go past 82c maximum.

I don't remember which test it was but I've been running various benchmarks Prime95 v26.6 & v29.4, Small FFTs, Large FFTs, Realbench. 

Generally it's lower in the 60s or 70s depending on the test. 

Clock is stable at 5.0ghz no throttling no matter what I throw at it and the board looks even better in my TG case.

Very pleased! Got my perfect build now. Just a shame I had to spend more than I usually would to get a decent VRM.


----------



## wingman99

tiryn said:


> So I received my Maximus X Hero today and sold the Prime -A on the same day!
> 
> My Maximus has a VRM sensor (yay!) and I haven't seen it go past 82c maximum.
> 
> I don't remember which test it was but I've been running various benchmarks Prime95 v26.6 & v29.4, Small FFTs, Large FFTs, Realbench.
> 
> Generally it's lower in the 60s or 70s depending on the test.
> 
> Clock is stable at 5.0ghz no throttling no matter what I throw at it and the board looks even better in my TG case.
> 
> Very pleased! Got my perfect build now. Just a shame I had to spend more than I usually would to get a decent VRM.


For the same Price as the Prime A you could of purchased ASRock extreme 4 with a great VRM for running prime95 v.29.4.


----------



## tiryn

wingman99 said:


> For the same Price as the Prime A you could of purchased ASRock extreme 4 with a great VRM for running prime95 v.29.4.


Sadly I didn't look for info on VRMs before purchasing the Prime. I will in future. Throttling was happening in handbrake aswell, unacceptable in my opinion, never had a problem with VRM throttling the CPU before even if overclocked, assumed it would be fine. 

I did read bits of this thread and saw people recommending ASRock Extreme4 or Fatality K6 (kudos to ASRock!).

Prob would of bought one if I hadn't found a cheap refurbished Maximus X with 12 mth warranty for just a little more.


----------



## wingman99

tiryn said:


> Sadly I didn't look for info on VRMs before purchasing the Prime. I will in future. Throttling was happening in handbrake aswell, unacceptable in my opinion, never had a problem with VRM throttling the CPU before even if overclocked, assumed it would be fine.
> 
> I did read bits of this thread and saw people recommending ASRock Extreme4 or Fatality K6 (kudos to ASRock!).
> 
> Prob would of bought one if I hadn't found a cheap refurbished Maximus X with 12 mth warranty for just a little more.


Did you increase the TDP watts limit to try and help or was it VRM thermal throttling?

I have a question on the VRM list https://www.hardwareluxx.de/community/f12/lga-1151-mainboard-vrm-liste-1175784.html#z370 When it lists real phase 4 or 4X2 is the 2 doubler?


----------



## WiSH2oo0

How do I know if my VRM's are throttling while running Prime95 on a ASUS ROG Maximus X Hero (Wi-Fi AC)? I have noticed that in the first 20 minutes of Prime95 that my CPU Power Package is at 208 watts then drops down to about 135 watts. Is this VRM throttling? If so that sucks because I would have to start all over again!

Edit: I think I found my answer. So if the VRMs are throttling the CPU will throttle and drop my CPU clock speeds?


----------



## AlphaC

Unless you are delidded your CPU will throttle before your VRM will on the Maximus X Hero...

make sure you adjusted your short + long duration power limit if you're delidded and can actually cool the CPU.



wingman99 said:


> Did you increase the TDP watts limit to try and help or was it VRM thermal throttling?
> 
> I have a question on the VRM list https://www.hardwareluxx.de/community/f12/lga-1151-mainboard-vrm-liste-1175784.html#z370 When it lists real phase 4 or 4X2 is the 2 doubler?


4x2 means br0da didn't see any doublers. AKA fake doubled = only 4 PWM signals. You'll note 5x2 for the K6 and Extreme4 with Dual-N fets that have much lower RDS(on) than the competition.

edit: what isn't obvious from the chart is the Taichi is using 10 ISL6596 drivers which means it should have 10 PWM phases instead of 5.

There's two main ways to get more than 8 phases total:
*"fake double" *without additional inductor = 2 high / low side fets instead of one of each , higher heat production since the DCR (DC resistance) of two inductors is lower than one ; wiring 4 mosfets to one inductor (2 of them turn on at a given time) results in higher current through it
*
"fake double"* = 2 high / low side fets instead of one of each with a separate inductor for each set of high+low side mosfets

*doubler *= use a doubler chip such as IR3599 or IR3598 to run 2 high side and 2 low side out of phase (i.e. they turn on and off not at the same time) and a separate inductor for each set of mosfets

If a powerstage is used then usually it isn't fake doubled since there is a discrete driver in each powerstage.

Of course you will have ways to reduce on state resistance such as a doubled low side without touching the high side fets. The reason this is done is to halve the effective RDS(on) since two mosfets are run in parallel. This is what you see on the TUF board , which is 4 phases. They could have used NexFETs with much lower RDS(on) instead but it's a cheapo board with a terrible feature-set , poor VRM, and nobody should buy it IMO.

A good read is Steven's rundown:
https://www.tweaktown.com/guides/8482/intel-z370-motherboard-buyers-guide/index5.html

see also https://training.ti.com/introduction-multiphase-buck-regulators?cu=1134987 & the application note http://www.ti.com/lit/an/slva882/slva882.pdf


----------



## tiryn

wingman99 said:


> Did you increase the TDP watts limit to try and help or was it VRM thermal throttling?


Not sure, what setting controls the TDP watts limit on Asus boards?

In HWiNFO64 it would eventually show "Yes" under IA VR Thermal Alert and RING VR Thermal Alert. 

My CPU would then clock down to 3.7ghz or something until temps came down I assume. Board didn't have a VRM temp sensor.

If I disabled "VRM Thermal Control" in the BIOS the clock would be stable at 5ghz but it would eventually crash. 

I interpreted this to mean VRM was the problem.

If it was just happening in synthetics extreme tests I might have accepted it as I'm being unfair but it was also happening in handbrake encodes. Not cool.


----------



## tiryn

WiSH2oo0 said:


> How do I know if my VRM's are throttling while running Prime95 on a ASUS ROG Maximus X Hero (Wi-Fi AC)? I have noticed that in the first 20 minutes of Prime95 that my CPU Power Package is at 208 watts then drops down to about 135 watts. Is this VRM throttling? If so that sucks because I would have to start all over again!
> 
> Edit: I think I found my answer. So if the VRMs are throttling the CPU will throttle and drop my CPU clock speeds?


If you're using one of the presets in Prime95 like small fft, large fft or blend it will test the CPU in various ways that will use consume different amounts of power. So don't worry that is normal.

You are correct as far as I know if the VRMs are overheating some boards will downclock the CPU to bring temps down. 
Other brands/boards might let you do what you want but still at some limit it will shutdown the PC to prevent damage. 
Depends on how the motherboard manufacturer decided to handle this.


----------



## AlphaC

https://www.hardwareinside.de/asus-rog-maximus-x-hero-das-ultimative-z370-mainboard-im-test-33641/5/

Maximus X Hero confirmation : VRM heatsink ~ 46.6°C in Prime95 @ 5GHz


----------



## WiSH2oo0

AlphaC said:


> make sure you adjusted your short + long duration power limit if you're delidded and can actually cool the CPU



I'm delidded and using an EK-Supremacy EVO water block to cool my 8700K 5GHz @ Vcore 1.37. All my bios OC setting are in my sig. In Prime95 29.4 my max CPU temps are 71C. 

What do I set the short + long duration power limits too? 

Will I need to run my stability tests again after this bios setting change?

Or can I even OC my 8700K even higher after this bios setting change?



Thanks


----------



## wingman99

AlphaC said:


> Unless you are delidded your CPU will throttle before your VRM will on the Maximus X Hero...
> 
> make sure you adjusted your short + long duration power limit if you're delidded and can actually cool the CPU.
> 
> 
> 
> 4x2 means br0da didn't see any doublers. AKA fake doubled = only 4 PWM signals. You'll note 5x2 for the K6 and Extreme4 with Dual-N fets that have much lower RDS(on) than the competition.
> 
> edit: what isn't obvious from the chart is the Taichi is using 10 ISL6596 drivers which means it should have 10 PWM phases instead of 5.
> 
> There's two main ways to get more than 8 phases total:
> *"fake double" *without additional inductor = 2 high / low side fets instead of one of each , higher heat production since the DCR (DC resistance) of two inductors is lower than one ; wiring 4 mosfets to one inductor (2 of them turn on at a given time) results in higher current through it
> *
> "fake double"* = 2 high / low side fets instead of one of each with a separate inductor for each set of high+low side mosfets
> 
> *doubler *= use a doubler chip such as IR3599 or IR3598 to run 2 high side and 2 low side out of phase (i.e. they turn on and off not at the same time) and a separate inductor for each set of mosfets
> 
> If a powerstage is used then usually it isn't fake doubled since there is a discrete driver in each powerstage.
> 
> Of course you will have ways to reduce on state resistance such as a doubled low side without touching the high side fets. The reason this is done is to halve the effective RDS(on) since two mosfets are run in parallel. This is what you see on the TUF board , which is 4 phases. They could have used NexFETs with much lower RDS(on) instead but it's a cheapo board with a terrible feature-set , poor VRM, and nobody should buy it IMO.
> 
> A good read is Steven's rundown:
> https://www.tweaktown.com/guides/8482/intel-z370-motherboard-buyers-guide/index5.html
> 
> see also https://training.ti.com/introduction-multiphase-buck-regulators?cu=1134987 & the application note http://www.ti.com/lit/an/slva882/slva882.pdf


Yes the TUF Z370-PLUS GAMING sucks for overclocking the processor. The VRM has to much ripple and I had to increase the Vcore for prime95 intern creating more heat. From what I read the Taichi uses a five phase controller to ISL6596 that is a high frequency, MOSFET driver optimized to drive two N-Channel power MOSFETs in a synchronous. A driver only increase the signal to the mosfet so it is stronger signal. So in the end Taichi still only has a true 5 phase. 

I did not go with ASRock extreme 4 because of the PC freezing if you increase the vccio 1.1V and vccsa 1.15 above those levels. My main objective going from Gigabyte Z370 HD3 to ASUS TUF Z370-PLUS GAMING was memory overclocking with my G.SKILL 3200 cl 14. I overclocked to 3866 16-16-16-36 with ASUS TUF with ease. Gigabyte would not stabilizes memory above 3200 when rebooting. I just did not expect the TUF VRM not to be even close as good as the HD3.


----------



## wingman99

tiryn said:


> Not sure, what setting controls the TDP watts limit on Asus boards?
> 
> In HWiNFO64 it would eventually show "Yes" under IA VR Thermal Alert and RING VR Thermal Alert.
> 
> My CPU would then clock down to 3.7ghz or something until temps came down I assume. Board didn't have a VRM temp sensor.
> 
> If I disabled "VRM Thermal Control" in the BIOS the clock would be stable at 5ghz but it would eventually crash.
> 
> I interpreted this to mean VRM was the problem.
> 
> If it was just happening in synthetics extreme tests I might have accepted it as I'm being unfair but it was also happening in handbrake encodes. Not cool.


Thanks for the explanation. Sounds like VRM throttling was going on. How is the ASUS ROG Maximus X Hero doing and did you have to change any settings for it to run full load?


----------



## encrypted11

wingman99 said:


> I did not go with ASRock extreme 4 because of the PC freezing if you increase the vccio 1.1V and vccsa 1.15 above those levels. My main objective going from Gigabyte Z370 HD3 to ASUS TUF Z370-PLUS GAMING was memory overclocking with my G.SKILL 3200 cl 14. I overclocked to 3866 16-16-16-36 with ASUS TUF with ease. Gigabyte would not stabilizes memory above 3200 when rebooting. I just did not expect the TUF VRM not to be even close as good as the HD3.


Can't tell if that's a widespread issue with the extreme 4? BIOS freezing from bad memory settings are just potential quirks of bad memory tuning and its up to the user to solve that. I've personally found that even average chips yield excellent memory speeds without insane SA and IO levels, you'd have a lot of mileage even if you artificially limit them to say 1.2V.

[email protected] has also mentioned the ASUS 4-layer T-Topology boards (iirc they're up to Strix-F) do not have good 1DPC signalling; even 3733MHz aren't guaranteed.
https://rog.asus.com/forum/showthre...ll-Trident-Z-2x16GB-Samsung-B-Die)#post700041

Here's der8auer's yield on the entry level budget boards with each manufacturer. Apparently ASRock has put some work into their memory trace layouts. Even the budget models fly on memory speeds on 4 layer boards. They're touting the "ASRock Intel® 4-Layer Memory POOL (Planes on Outer Layers) Technology" on the 4 layers, and they do have an excellent track record in memory support (esp. circa 2015 with the OCF lineup)


----------



## wingman99

encrypted11 said:


> Can't tell if that's a widespread issue with the extreme 4? BIOS freezing from bad memory settings are just potential quirks of bad memory tuning and its up to the user to solve that.
> 
> [email protected] has also mentioned the ASUS 4-layer T-Topology boards (iirc they're up to Strix-F) do not have good 1DPC signalling; even 3733MHz aren't guaranteed.
> 
> Here's der8auer's yield on the entry level budget boards with each manufacturer. Apparently ASRock has put some work into their memory trace layouts. Even the budget models fly on memory speeds on 4 layer boards. They're touting the "ASRock Intel® 4-Layer Memory POOL (Planes on Outer Layers) Technology" on the 4 layers, and they do have an excellent track record in memory support (esp. circa 2015 with the OCF lineup)


Looks like I should have gone with ASRock, I was jut worried about the vccio 1.1V and vccsa 1.15 problem above those levels.


----------



## tiryn

wingman99 said:


> Thanks for the explanation. Sounds like VRM throttling was going on. How is the ASUS ROG Maximus X Hero doing and did you have to change any settings for it to run full load?


Same settings as on the Prime A except I noticed the LLC behaved differently.
On the Prime A I was using lvl 6 and on the Maximus X I use lvl 5 to give me similar voltages in the BIOS setting and under load.
(This is with Adaptive Mode, SVID behaviour set to Typical, AC & DC load line set to 0.01)

I'm pretty sure I have enough voltage headroom to get 5.1Ghz stable needs further testing.

Initial testing 5.2ghz at 1.440v was unstable so that's out of the question with my chip as I don't want to go higher in voltage for 24/7.

Max VRM temp I've recorded was 90c at 1.440v core voltage with the Blend test of Prime95 v29.4 FMA3 instructions. 

My setup probably isn't the best for airflow over the VRM though its optimised for looks and low noise (AIO cooling, Corsair LL120s fans etc).
Edit: But then again I think the mobo manufacturers should take this into account when designing as it's pretty common these days.

Wouldn't of been able to test this properly on the Prime A so I'm much happier with the Maximus X Hero.


----------



## wingman99

tiryn said:


> Same settings as on the Prime A except I noticed the LLC behaved differently.
> On the Prime A I was using lvl 6 and on the Maximus X I use lvl 5 to give me similar voltages in the BIOS setting and under load.
> (This is with Adaptive Mode, SVID behaviour set to Typical, AC & DC load line set to 0.01)
> 
> I'm pretty sure I have enough voltage headroom to get 5.1Ghz stable needs further testing.
> 
> Initial testing 5.2ghz at 1.440v was unstable so that's out of the question with my chip as I don't want to go higher in voltage for 24/7.
> 
> Max VRM temp I've recorded was 90c at 1.440v core voltage with the Blend test of Prime95 v29.4 FMA3 instructions.
> 
> My setup probably isn't the best for airflow over the VRM though its optimised for looks and low noise (AIO cooling, Corsair LL120s fans etc).
> Edit: But then again I think the mobo manufacturers should take this into account when designing as it's pretty common these days.
> 
> Wouldn't of been able to test this properly on the Prime A so I'm much happier with the Maximus X Hero.


That all sounds great, glad to see the VRM is working well. What does SVID behavior do for Adaptive? I have mine set on AUTO.


----------



## tiryn

wingman99 said:


> That all sounds great, glad to see the VRM is working well. What does SVID behavior do for Adaptive? I have mine set on AUTO.


As far as I know SVID is how much voltage the CPU requests at different frequencies and needs to be on for offset or adaptive mode to work. The offset amount will be deducted or added onto the base SVID value for any given frequency.

These base values may be unnecessarily high. So we are given several options to pick one that works best for our chip. 

"Best case scenario" setting will mean lower voltages across the frequency range but will cause instability unless you have a good chip. 
"Worst case scenario" will mean higher voltages and is like a safe option that will work on all chips at the expensive of extra power and higher temperatures.
"Typical" is the middle ground and is what I use.

No idea how auto works on this setting.


----------



## VickNet

AlphaC said:


> Your PCB is bent it looks like. That's why there wasn't enough contact.
> 
> The thermal pad should deform (indent) from the pressure of the mosfet pushing into it. It isn't supposed to sit on top of the mosfet.
> 
> Because it is a one piece heatsink it is important to tighten both sides gradually to maintain straightness.
> 
> Keep in mind anything over 1.5mm thermal pad thickness is pretty excessive , the maximum z-height of a Onsemi mosfet is around 1.1mm (it is with tolerance at 1mm +/-0.1mm).





asdkj1740 said:


> your pic shows your mobo is bent too much. try to tighten two screws as even as you can.
> 1.5mm thickness is sure enough, so you should avoid tighten the screws too much.
> 
> your way (stacking up 2 separated thermal pads) should still have some improvement even there are little gaps between two pad reducing the heat transfer to the heatsink.
> the best way is to buy a 1.5mm thick pad. go buy some cheap one....it is not wise to spend too much on third party thermal pads for z370.
> thermal pad is not something you should reuse after, and the imprints are hard to recover to be flat surface after use, imo.





Thanks a lot, I lowered the screws a little, and my MB unbend
now I am 85 c at AIDA64 4.9Ghz, 1.35v (but it was 102c ahead) delided 8700k + Aorus Gaming 5
thx to all... helped, as you said, to put thermal forests on top, and to have 2mm...
I'm happy
gaming max 75-80c (bf1, 155w-200w CPU) this is normal?
other games 60-65c

No OC, all stock http://funkyimg.com/i/2GMmu.png

OCC http://funkyimg.com/i/2GMqk.png
4.9ghz good?

I can put 5 ghz, but I get 4.9


----------



## asdkj1740

VickNet said:


> Thanks a lot, I lowered the screws a little, and my MB unbend
> now I am 85 c at AIDA64 4.9Ghz, 1.35v (but it was 102c ahead) delided 8700k + Aorus Gaming 5
> thx to all... helped, as you said, to put thermal forests on top, and to have 2mm...
> I'm happy
> gaming max 75-80c (bf1, 155w-200w CPU) this is normal?
> other games 60-65c
> 
> No OC, all stock http://funkyimg.com/i/2GMmu.png
> 
> OCC http://funkyimg.com/i/2GMqk.png
> 4.9ghz good?
> 
> I can put 5 ghz, but I get 4.9


dropping almost 20c is a huge improvement already, given the way you have done. 
vrm temp doesnt matter if there are no power throttlings & temp throttlings & cpu threads' usages dropped.


<80C is very great for 1.38v.
if you would like to further reduce the vrm (a bit), try installing a exhaust case fan on your case's top panel right above the vrm.


i would like to know did you bend the pcb when you replaced the stock pad with 1mm pad (single layer and no stacking up them)at the first time???
your experience is crucial to show the root of the cooling problem on gigabyte z370s.


----------



## VickNet

asdkj1740 said:


> dropping almost 20c is a huge improvement already, given the way you have done.
> vrm temp doesnt matter if there are no power throttlings & temp throttlings & cpu threads' usages dropped.
> 
> 
> <80C is very great for 1.38v.
> if you would like to further reduce the vrm (a bit), try installing a exhaust case fan on your case's top panel right above the vrm.
> 
> 
> i would like to know did you bend the pcb when you replaced the stock pad with 1mm pad (single layer and no stacking up them)at the first time???
> your experience is crucial to show the root of the cooling problem on gigabyte z370s.


thx, Even when I was 102, I did not throttlings VRM/CPU... it worked everything stable,

when I put the 1.0mm thermpad, the MB was not doubted, it was straight, it was normal, but it was not an effect, because it did not get enough of the mosfet thermpad by parts, it did not touch, a little, that's 0.

after we put the thermal pad on top, that old one, we had 2.0mm, I gathered hard, the MB was a bit bent, and it did not work, I weakened the screws slightly, and the effect came, I dropped the degrees! 

what do you think about Gaming 5?
I repeat, I bought this MB, basically when it appeared on Amazon, they had something wrong, instead of 1.5mm, they put 1.0, which is why I think the cooling was poor. A friend bought the MB later, and he has no problems with VRM Temp, he has the same degrees I have now, after I have solved the problem.

As far as I read on the forum, most z370s reach 75-80C even 90 if you start Prime AVX FPU

Who has problems with 100c, go 1.5mm thermal pads
But I do not already think this is the problem, who is currently purchasing these Mbs, the problem is already solved by Gigabyte, as I said, my friend does not have such problems as I had

By the way, at NZXT s340 Elite, how do I put the cooler at VRM? although I do not need it, it's normal and so!

#NZXT S340Elite/Kraken x62/8700k Delided/GTX 1070ti Duke

Thx to all


----------



## e-gate

Gigabyte Z370 Gaming 7 analysis


----------



## encrypted11

As worded by Jon a couple of times, no impact 

https://videocardz.com/newz/asus-to-introduce-rog-maximus-xi-series-for-z390-chipset

I hope there's a mOCF from Nick. Still holding up in 2018.


----------



## F-man4

encrypted11 said:


> As worded by Jon a couple of times, no impact
> 
> https://videocardz.com/newz/asus-to-introduce-rog-maximus-xi-series-for-z390-chipset
> 
> I hope there's a mOCF from Nick. Still holding up in 2018.


Wow, Z170 mod rules the game.


----------



## asdkj1740

msi z370 godlike's vrm should be 16 phases vcore entirely but not 12+4 (6+2 pwm signals).


----------



## br0da

According to Steve it's 12+4+1+1, sadly I can't really confirm that by my own since no one shows the backside of the board without those heatsinks completely.
Also I can't spot controllers for 16+2+1+1, there's only one dual loop controller for SA and IO and one IR35201 IIRC.


----------



## asdkj1740

br0da said:


> According to Steve it's 12+4+1+1, sadly I can't really confirm that by my own since no one shows the backside of the board without those heatsinks completely.
> Also I can't spot controllers for 16+2+1+1, there's only one dual loop controller for SA and IO and one IR35201 IIRC.


there is no graphic output header on the back io.

16phases vcore is confirmed by a msi engineer called toppc on his youtube channel speaking in mandarin.





this design is to be ready for the next coming cpu (8C16T).
i highly doubt could gigabyte z370s survive in 8c16t cpu.
still, it is said that currently gigabyte has no solution (at all) to the themal pad problem, although they are already acknowledged this problem.


----------



## br0da

Huh never noticed that. I'll update the list, thx!


----------



## wingman99

br0da said:


> According to Steve it's 12+4+1+1, sadly I can't really confirm that by my own since no one shows the backside of the board without those heatsinks completely.
> Also I can't spot controllers for 16+2+1+1, there's only one dual loop controller for SA and IO and one IR35201 IIRC.


I was just wondering what do the +2+1+1 represent?


----------



## encrypted11

I'm sitting on these settings since the initial adaptive (offset) mode fix in Nov-2017

http://www.overclock.net/forum/6-in...l1ty-gaming-itx-ac-review-6.html#post27465436


----------



## br0da

wingman99 said:


> I was just wondering what do the +2+1+1 represent?


VCC+VCCGT+VCCSA+VCCIO, those are all the major supply voltages a CPU on this platform gets which have been generated in buck converter designs in the past.


----------



## wingman99

br0da said:


> VCC+VCCGT+VCCSA+VCCIO, those are all the major supply voltages a CPU on this platform gets which have been generated in buck converter designs in the past.


Thanks for the information. Cores + IGPU + system agent + memory controller, shared cache.:specool:


----------



## leonman44

Hello mates , i have an Asus Prime z370 , i have overclocked my i5 8600k to 5ghz but even if the stress tests shows that my system is stable , sometimes when the cpu is idle for long and just click something simple like opening a folder it may freeze causing a blue screen , while that never happens under load.

I have found 2 solutions so far:

1) Increase the vcore of the chip so it can raise the general stability

Or

2) Manual set my vrms frequency to the maximum value of 500khz

I prefer the 2nd solution as i wont have to throw unnecessary extra voltage to the chip + the auto vrm setting seems to be pretty power conservative to cause such instability in the range of idle to medium stress levels.

The big question is , can they endure such stress 24/7 or they will blow up? 

I saw that they included a small bracket with the motherboard so i can mount a small fan 40-40 or 50-50 just for the vrms , kinda suspicious to give such things free.....


----------



## GorbazTheDragon

Hi all, looking for a decent board to throw a 7700k or 8350k in. Not per se looking for rock solid 5GHz but would like a decent board that will last long, under $130 would be nice.

Is there any accurate info on the VRMs used on the lower end boards like the pro4?

Is there any chance we can make some kind of comparison between the different fets used on the boards? I'd be up for helping get data for it but I would also like to have someone knowledgeable cross check the findings.

Last time I was looking for a board was Z97 era and I recall the SIRA12s GB were using on their boards had a lot of trouble getting consistent performance on 4790ks. Looks like those have spread to other boards and we are now looking at a multitude of upper midrange boards with 8 or less of what seem to be similar or lower quality fets but higher current requirements than we had on HSW (Vcore<Vin) which is a bit of a worrying trend.


----------



## Fediuld

Has anyone done a list of which Z370 boards could support the 8 core CFL on the power delivery department? 
Because It would need 300W-320W at 5Ghz if we take the current power consumption of the 8700K @ 5Ghz.


----------



## asdkj1740

Fediuld said:


> Has anyone done a list of which Z370 boards could support the 8 core CFL on the power delivery department?
> Because It would need 300W-320W at 5Ghz if we take the current power consumption of the 8700K @ 5Ghz.


very rare i guess.
vrm cooling on lots of z370s is insanely bad for 5ghz 8700k at 1.3v or above.
for what i have heard on 8700k running prime95 small ftt preset without crashes/thread usages dropped, <1.3v @ 5ghz are very good chip, 1.35V is near average level, >1.35v is bad.

the upcoming bios should have proper tuned for power consumption, 300w should be impossible to reach in general.


----------



## GorbazTheDragon

First thing I would look for is 8 phase IR3553s

Maybe if we're lucky they might start using directfets on motherboards again.


----------



## KedarWolf

Would I be better off going Asus Maximus X Formula or Asrock Fatal1ty Z370 Professional Gaming i7. I really like the thermal armour and water cooling out the Formula but I think the Asrock is better for overclocking from what I read. They are both around the same price here.


----------



## encrypted11

If ASRock had a 6+1 Intersil ISL isl99227 than a 5+2 isl99227 plus dual m.2s (like why would you need 2 60A phases over the Intel HD630??), a slightly less locked down BIOS relative to the Taichi they'd have a runaway champ in the ITX space that'd run the 8 core really well.

And perhaps heat sink design that'll allow use of a monoblock with a bitspower collaboration (the piped heatsink from the chipset to the vcore VRMs makes that unfeasible currently), it'll probably still sell at +$20 MSRP over the current model.

I suspect you'd need a board that supports 180A 1.4V safely to saturate the 8 core at ambient cooling.


----------



## KedarWolf

KedarWolf said:


> Would I be better off going Asus Maximus X Formula or Asrock Fatal1ty Z370 Professional Gaming i7. I really like the thermal armour and water cooling out the Formula but I think the Asrock is better for overclocking from what I read. They are both around the same price here.


Couldn't get the Asrock board locally so got the Formula.


----------



## Jpmboy

What is the ASUS X Apex hard to find these days?




F-man4 said:


> Wow, Z170 mod rules the game.


actually, the z170MOCF. It is the best z170 or 270 board...


----------



## KedarWolf

Jpmboy said:


> What is the ASUS X Apex hard to find these days?
> 
> 
> 
> actually, the z170MOCF. It is the best z170 or 270 board...


Wanted a four DIMM board, @Jpmboy


----------



## GorbazTheDragon

https://wccftech.com/intel-next-generation-8-core-cpu-support-z370-bios/

"Intel Board Partners Add Support For Next-Generation CPUs To Z370 Motherboards – Hints at 8 Core Processor Compatibility on Current Platforms"

Prepare the forums for a lot of destroyed Z370 VRMs...


----------



## KedarWolf

GorbazTheDragon said:


> https://wccftech.com/intel-next-generation-8-core-cpu-support-z370-bios/
> 
> "Intel Board Partners Add Support For Next-Generation CPUs To Z370 Motherboards – Hints at 8 Core Processor Compatibility on Current Platforms"
> 
> Prepare the forums for a lot of destroyed Z370 VRMs...


Maximus X Formula, add VRM waterblocks on motherboard to existing CPU loop, problem solved!!

And I'm getting 65C VRM temps stress testing the CPU RealBench for five minutes with that board on air. at 1.38V CPU LLC 5, 1.45v RAM with 1.2375 VCCIO and 1.25 SA in 30C+ 80F+ ambient temps. 

I think the VRM cooling on that board even under air is pretty good.

https://www.asus.com/ca-en/Motherboards/ROG-MAXIMUS-X-FORMULA/


----------



## GorbazTheDragon

Yeah great use of the highest end overclocking motherboard as an example...

You barely have to scratch the surface of this thread to realise that the vast majority of current motherboards are pretty inadequate for anything beyond the stock TDPs of the current 6 cores.

We don't all want to have to spend at least $200-250 to get decent VRM on our boards.


----------



## scracy

GorbazTheDragon said:


> https://wccftech.com/intel-next-generation-8-core-cpu-support-z370-bios/
> 
> "Intel Board Partners Add Support For Next-Generation CPUs To Z370 Motherboards – Hints at 8 Core Processor Compatibility on Current Platforms"
> 
> Prepare the forums for a lot of destroyed Z370 VRMs...


Kinda expected Z370 would be compatible with 8C/16T Coffee lake S CPU's considering there was no reason to change the 1151 socket to suit the 8700K as stated by Asus at the time Z370 was released. I will be interested to see how my Maximus X Formula board will cope VRM wise  Hopefully the new 8C/16T will clock above or around 5Ghz.


----------



## wingman99

GorbazTheDragon said:


> https://wccftech.com/intel-next-generation-8-core-cpu-support-z370-bios/
> 
> "Intel Board Partners Add Support For Next-Generation CPUs To Z370 Motherboards – Hints at 8 Core Processor Compatibility on Current Platforms"
> 
> Prepare the forums for a lot of destroyed Z370 VRMs...


Motherboard manufactures have VRM overload and thermal safety's built in. You won't see any failures, 3 year warranty guaranteed.


----------



## AlphaC

Not sure how valid testing is (Non AVX?), but just a point of discussion. It seems the MSI heatsinks held up better for Z370 low- midrange.

K3 and TUF perform as expected.


In reality you'd want the MSI SLI PLUS at a minimum if cheaping out, since Tomahawk lacks ALC1220.


----------



## KedarWolf

AlphaC said:


> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QNX8_13cBwA
> 
> Not sure how valid testing is (Non AVX?), but just a point of discussion. It seems the MSI heatsinks held up better for Z370 low- midrange.
> 
> K3 and TUF perform as expected.
> 
> 
> In reality you'd want the MSI SLI PLUS at a minimum if cheaping out, since Tomahawk lacks ALC1220.


On my Asus Maximus X Formula with a serious OC without water hooked up to my VRMs (parts on the way) while running RealBench or RamTest my VRMs stay under 65c, this in 28C ambient temps. 

Edit: non-AVX, no bin drop.


----------



## cletus-cassidy

Fediuld said:


> Has anyone done a list of which Z370 boards could support the 8 core CFL on the power delivery department?
> Because It would need 300W-320W at 5Ghz if we take the current power consumption of the 8700K @ 5Ghz.


Also curious about this. Maybe some of the members with expertise could hazard some guesses? I have an Asrock Z370 Taichi and curious if its VRM (and single 8 pin) could handle a 5ghz 8 core OC.


----------



## GorbazTheDragon

KedarWolf said:


> On my Asus Maximus X Formula with a serious OC without water hooked up to my VRMs (parts on the way) while running RealBench or RamTest my VRMs stay under 65c, this in 28C ambient temps.
> 
> Edit: non-AVX, no bin drop.


Good comparison lol...

That board is like 2x the price of the ones in the vid?


----------



## KedarWolf

GorbazTheDragon said:


> Good comparison lol...
> 
> That board is like 2x the price of the ones in the vid?


If you're seriously considering an MSI board you likely will not get the same performance as an Asus board. Not sure how the VRM cooling on it is but even a ROG STRIX Z370-F GAMING is a much better choice than MSI.

But if you want the best OCing board probably a Taichi is the way to go.

But I can afford the Formula and it has EK VRM water blocks on it to hook up to my existing CPU water loop. 

And the backplate and thermal armour is nice


----------



## GorbazTheDragon

The only thing making the difference in clocks is the VRM... that can't even account for a quarter of the price difference between the boards.

Not everyone wants to spend $300+ on a board with a backplate just to be able to get to the cooling limit of their CPU. We could push in excess of 200A very comfortably on $120 boards 4 years ago, why can't we do it now?

Oh, not to mention we are being hinted 4.7GHz 8c boost clocks for the 9900k (4.6 for 9700k) so these 4 phase affairs with low end fets are definitely not going to hold up because we're going to be well beyond the 95w TDP.


----------



## Icanthelplt90

*Question*



encrypted11 said:


> I'm sitting on these settings since the initial adaptive (offset) mode fix in Nov-2017
> 
> https://www.overclock.net/forum/6-i...l1ty-gaming-itx-ac-review-6.html#post27465436


Have you tried out Bios 1.91? I heard its supposed to have better L2 Voltage regulation. I'm running 5.1GHz at 1.365 with a -100MHz AVX offset but i really wish i could get that voltage more stable. Which then I could easily/comfortably get to 5.3 after a delid since it runs fine with 2 noctua 3000rpm fans at max hahaha


----------



## wingman99

GorbazTheDragon said:


> The only thing making the difference in clocks is the VRM... that can't even account for a quarter of the price difference between the boards.
> 
> Not everyone wants to spend $300+ on a board with a backplate just to be able to get to the cooling limit of their CPU. We could push in excess of 200A very comfortably on $120 boards 4 years ago, why can't we do it now?
> 
> Oh, not to mention we are being hinted 4.7GHz 8c boost clocks for the 9900k (4.6 for 9700k) so these 4 phase affairs with low end fets are definitely not going to hold up because we're going to be well beyond the 95w TDP.


They 4 phase amount and quality of the MOSFET is not how the engineers decide what is achieved for maximum output. It is the (Volts X total amps) of all the MOSFETs = maximum watts specification allowed. The watts for 8 cores 16 thread could all be done on 1 phase like the memory is. With 4 phases there is less ripple then one phase at any wattage output.


----------



## encrypted11

Icanthelplt90 said:


> Have you tried out Bios 1.91? I heard its supposed to have better L2 Voltage regulation. I'm running 5.1GHz at 1.365 with a -100MHz AVX offset but i really wish i could get that voltage more stable. Which then I could easily/comfortably get to 5.3 after a delid since it runs fine with 2 noctua 3000rpm fans at max hahaha


Maybe you should try P3.10. 
They've moved the march '18 BIOS's L2 to L3 (~60mV droop), LLC2 is currently ~16mV droop I've tested these in fixed voltages.
The L2 on BIOS 1.91E seemed slightly different from P3.10.


----------



## Icanthelplt90

encrypted11 said:


> Maybe you should try P3.10.
> They've moved the march '18 BIOS's L2 to L3 (~60mV droop), LLC2 is currently ~16mV droop I've tested these in fixed voltages.
> The L2 on BIOS 1.91E seemed slightly different from P3.10.


I shall try that, thanks!


----------



## winter2

so it looks like first benchmark for 9900k was leaked and it was running on STRIX Z370-F GAMING https://www.3dmark.com/spy/4126457, what do you VRM-gurus think about these 8 cores runing 5ghz on different z370 board. Which tiers should be safe to use for it and which not ?


----------



## wingman99

encrypted11 said:


> Maybe you should try P3.10.
> They've moved the march '18 BIOS's L2 to L3 (~60mV droop), LLC2 is currently ~16mV droop I've tested these in fixed voltages.
> The L2 on BIOS 1.91E seemed slightly different from P3.10.


Most motherboards only show 16mv increments so if the voltage is close the next step in vcore reading, it could only be 1 millivolt of variance instead of the Load Line settings. Motherboards use to be so much simpler with lintels Load Line specification. Load Line enable= Auto then disable was Load Line off.


----------



## Paramount

I wonder is my VRM on msi pro carbon AC is good or not ?


----------



## KedarWolf

Paramount said:


> I wonder is my VRM on msi pro carbon AC is good or not ?


https://www.overclock.net/forum/6-intel-motherboards/1638955-z370-z390-vrm-discussion-thread.html


----------



## Vlada011

ASUS Maximus X Code drop to 280$ on Newegg.
What specifications say about difference between Z370 and Z390.
Maybe could be save some money and invest i9-9900K.


----------



## buellersdayoff

Paramount said:


> I wonder is my VRM on msi pro carbon AC is good or not ?


It's average, though good enough for 5ghz on 8700k but dependant on the cpus silicone and higher clocks are usually dependent on silicone lottery anyways. It's also recommended to have a case fan directed at the vrm (intake fan top of case) and or a tower cooler, which will do the same thing. Most mid range boards are capable of this with the high end boards aiding in stability at absolute limit only. Don't completely cheap out on a board but the most expensive aren't necessary either, paying double for a high end that may net you up to 5% higher core speed (still dependant on silicone lottery) is something only you can decide is worth it or not to you. Also I'd imagine if z370 is compatible with new i9 cpus manufacturers will only update bios to boards that are sufficient for the higher power requirements which will most likely be above average boards. 
Edit, forgot to mention, to push an 8700k to around 5ghz and up you'll most likely need to delid and apply liquid metal as the stock TIM won't be sufficient, so if you aren't going to do that the vrm will be sufficient.


----------



## GorbazTheDragon

wingman99 said:


> They 4 phase amount and quality of the MOSFET is not how the engineers decide what is achieved for maximum output. It is the (Volts X total amps) of all the MOSFETs = maximum watts specification allowed. The watts for 8 cores 16 thread could all be done on 1 phase like the memory is. With 4 phases there is less ripple then one phase at any wattage output.


Not even sure what you are trying to say.

All I said is that 4 phases with those mosfets (even if they are running 2 sets of components in parallel in each phase) is inadequate for what the power draw of those chips is expected to be. They need either better fets or more phases. So idk where you got this 1 phase idea from, because there is no way in hell you are running 150A off a single phase of sira14s...


----------



## wingman99

GorbazTheDragon said:


> Not even sure what you are trying to say.
> 
> All I said is that 4 phases with those mosfets (even if they are running 2 sets of components in parallel in each phase) is inadequate for what the power draw of those chips is expected to be. They need either better fets or more phases. So idk where you got this 1 phase idea from, because there is no way in hell you are running 150A off a single phase of sira14s...





> so these 4 phase affairs with low end fets are definitely not going to hold up because we're going to be well beyond the 95w TDP.


I was just saying it is not all about phases and quality of the MOSFETs. However, the total watts they can produce. I believe most of the Z390s will use 4 phase with low end MOSFETs. However, the MOSFETs watts rating will be higher. A electrical engineer was making a point to me it's not all about the phases when you look at motherboards, they could and do make a MOSFET for 300+ watts just not for use with motherboards. MOSFETs 150 amps 12v =1800 watts link: http://e2e.ti.com/support/power_management/power_interface/f/204/p/390527/1382026


----------



## AlphaC

I don't think you realize how bad ripple would be with _one phase_. 4 phases is already shoddy (you turn them on 1/4 of the time), 6+ is ideal.


----------



## wingman99

I mentioned ripple in this post link: https://www.overclock.net/forum/6-i...0-vrm-discussion-thread-205.html#post27552558


----------



## rootmoto

Which mosfets are better? Sira18dp high side + sira12dp low side or 4c10n high side + 4c06n low side?


----------



## GorbazTheDragon

rootmoto said:


> Which mosfets are better? Sira18dp high side + sira12dp low side or 4c10n high side + 4c06n low side?


Basically the same spec wise, neither are particularly good.


----------



## KedarWolf

GorbazTheDragon said:


> Basically the same spec wise, neither are particularly good.


Can anyone tell me if the below is decent?

The Maximus X Formula uses a custom-packaged PWM controller marked “DIGI+ EPU ASP1405I F76G C730P”, which is most probably an IR35201 controller with 10 total phases. These phases use ten inductors, ten IR3535 drivers, ten Vishay Siliconix ZF906 MOSFETs and a number of Nichicon FPCAP Capacitors.

There are four International Rectifier IR3599 phase doublers in use too, three for the row of six and one for the row of four. Thus the likely configuration is that the PWM controller operates as a 4+2 VRM with the four IR3599 phase doublers turning those four phases into eight for a total of 8+2. Those ten phases probably split as eight phases for the vCore and two for the iGPU.

ASUS also uses a baseclock (BCLK) generator, IDT6V41638B, to increase the maximum capability of the CPU baseclock when overclocking.

The VCCSA and VCCIO CPU rails are formed from a number of other MOSFETs and regulators distributed between the CPU socket and first PCIe lane including some ON-SemiConductor MOSFETs (4C09B, 4C06B).

The memory runs a single two phase configuration using an ASP1103 VRM controller.


----------



## GorbazTheDragon

AFAIK the ASP1405 is 4+2 phase.

ZF906s (full designation is SiZF906DT) are comparable to the CSD87350 Ti NexFets. Seem to be a cheaper alternative, overall performance looks similar though the vishay one seems to have slightly worse switching characteristics. The 60 vs 40 A rating difference is insignificant in most cases for an 8 phase system, but as it is a fully doubled system, the switching characteristics are not as critical as they can be compensated for with a lower PWM frequency without sacrificing total frequency.

From what I've heard the cooling is fine even without a the waterblock being used and would probably do quite fine at least most of the way up to 320A (40 per phase) which is well beyond what you can do on watercooling.

Rest of the stuff is not as important and AFAIK in spec.


----------



## Maestro1337

Looking to buy an 8600k or an 8700k Still haven't decided yet and I want to OC to 5ghz. But I want to spend as little as possible while still having a decent board. Recomendations?


----------



## buellersdayoff

Maestro1337 said:


> Looking to buy an 8600k or an 8700k Still haven't decided yet and I want to OC to 5ghz. But I want to spend as little as possible while still having a decent board. Recomendations?


----------



## AlphaC

Maestro1337 said:


> Looking to buy an 8600k or an 8700k Still haven't decided yet and I want to OC to 5ghz. But I want to spend as little as possible while still having a decent board. Recomendations?



What is the purpose? If it's anything to do with video encoding or AVX instruction-sets it will have a different recommendation than a non-AVX application and/or use case.


The budget midrange pick is typically the Fatal1ty K6 from Asrock. It has increased in price slightly though while the EVGA Z370 FTW appears to have plummeted to around $120 at least in the USA.


----------



## AndyG

*One awful experience - Searching for best solution*

Apologies for jumping in here, I have already searched a lot here and everywhere and have come to a very general idea that mid-high range z370 ATX boards with 8700k over clocking in mind the ASROCK TAICHI seem to have the best all round comments about VRM TEMPs for OC (any OC).

Question: Regarding VRMS heat - is it a good choice to go with the TAIHI? I know there is no one size fits all, and I guess impossible to know which really is the VERY best, so my hope is well tested by users/no problems with VRMs. Any comments welcome:

Part 2. Ignore if you don't want to here a sob story about a busted MOBO. A few months back I bought the Gigabyte Aurous Gaming 7 top of the line mobo. The heat/voltage regulation is very good, no doubt so I bought it. Then I started reading about all sorts of VRM issues with Gigabyte z370. Some even for the top Gaming 7. Turns out the heat sinks are not working well in many cases. So, before switching on I gave a good visual inspection and properly tightned the 5 (or 6) screws that hold heatsink to VRMS. I thought good to go. WRONG!! After two weeks and not even any OC beyond all cores at 4.7GHz. It started to shut down, blue screens, final state is a restart loop. never posts or gets past the one little red led for CPU, off, again etc etc until unplug PSU.
Fully checked PSU, Memory, SSDs, cooling fans, connections and more. Couldn't fine anything wrong, but it was clear the board was 99% dead. During the very quick on time only fans, and then red led warning light came on. I got rid of it. Now somewhat paranoid about power delivery system (mainly VRMs mostets area).

After a lot of checking I settled on the Taichi. Got a good deal hence I jumped on it. Getting it tomorrow, along with a new H100X corsair AIO (H100X has no software, is new, and not available everywhere yet, but except for being louder than other corsairs it's their best cooler. Almost same as amazing Arctic 4 fan Freezer 240 240mm which I have too. (I will try both).

My CPU is a silicon lottery delid 5.2GHz version, dam expensive but in the short time with my Gigabyte, voltage could be dropped at stock.

So that's the sob story. I hope Asrock z370 Taichi is not another sob story.

BTW: It's natural to think I must be a newb and did something stupid but I have been building and overclocking CPUs since the first gen core. (back in 2009). I'm not a pro of course - rather it's my hobby which until this failure had gone well. 1000s of hours over all OC and testing on all gens of board since X58. (I'm not boasting - just said it because there is/was no simple solution with the Gigabyte.

Additional parts for Taichi planned build. G.Skill trident 2x 8GB sticks. XMP is only 3,000Mhz. Safe. 4x Samsung sata evo 960 SSDs. GTX 1080ti (EVGA ICS FTW3) PSU. New Seasonic gold FX 850 watt. AIO (Corsair or Arctic). Case huge Corsair Graphite 780T with additional venturi fans. CPU as stated - delidded professionally and binned up to 5.2GHz with AVX offset of 2.

Thanks guys. The sob story is just for background, really my question is only one - VRM reliability and experiences with AsROCK Z370 TAICHI. 
Thank you for any reply.


----------



## GorbazTheDragon

Taichi or the Hero are probably your best bets.

I hope you can solve the gaming 7 problem with GB or get a refund on it...


----------



## asdkj1740

recently gigabyte is replacing taiwanese 5k caps on mobo like x470 and z370 with japanese 5k fp caps.


----------



## AndyG

Thanks guys. Interesting about the new Gigabyte "upgrade." With the Z370, I think that gigabyte did in fact use some of the best power delivery systems. But it's incredible how they crippled it on a percentage of boards (like mine) with, a; loose heat sinks - easy to fix. b; Heat sinks that require more modification like cutting washers etc to make a good contact.
c; last but not least and what annoys me is that all the crazy over the top RGB hinders it. Seems sales team had more say than the engineers. I know this as I have totally taken apart heatsinks, and all of that area. There are wires running through the heatsinks which only are for RGB. There positioning surely hinders the sinks. Then, to cover up these wires the otherwise not too bad heatsinks were further compromised by an aluminium decorative plate. This prevents air flow, it's clear to see when you take it apart like I did. (yes, my warranty is screwde well and truely, but might make it a future project!?!)

I know that probably the majority of folks who bought the gaming 7 are impressed with it and have cool heat sinks. But a sizable amount (only really relevant for overclockers) get VRMs shooting up to 120c or more in no time. The little fan is to weak to help this kind of huge heat dissipation. Poor quality control. But I can live with it, I got a lemon and enjoyed totally disasembling it, kind of a learning exercise I guess.

Anyway, yesterday I got my Taichi. I am confident that the VRM cooling on this will be good. Going by reviews, and visual inspection this important section looks sturdy and well thought out.

Cheers.


----------



## asdkj1740

AndyG said:


> Thanks guys. Interesting about the new Gigabyte "upgrade." With the Z370, I think that gigabyte did in fact use some of the best power delivery systems. But it's incredible how they crippled it on a percentage of boards (like mine) with, a; loose heat sinks - easy to fix. b; Heat sinks that require more modification like cutting washers etc to make a good contact.
> c; last but not least and what annoys me is that all the crazy over the top RGB hinders it. Seems sales team had more say than the engineers. I know this as I have totally taken apart heatsinks, and all of that area. There are wires running through the heatsinks which only are for RGB. There positioning surely hinders the sinks. Then, to cover up these wires the otherwise not too bad heatsinks were further compromised by an aluminium decorative plate. This prevents air flow, it's clear to see when you take it apart like I did. (yes, my warranty is screwde well and truely, but might make it a future project!?!)
> 
> I know that probably the majority of folks who bought the gaming 7 are impressed with it and have cool heat sinks. But a sizable amount (only really relevant for overclockers) get VRMs shooting up to 120c or more in no time. The little fan is to weak to help this kind of huge heat dissipation. Poor quality control. But I can live with it, I got a lemon and enjoyed totally disasembling it, kind of a learning exercise I guess.
> 
> Anyway, yesterday I got my Taichi. I am confident that the VRM cooling on this will be good. Going by reviews, and visual inspection this important section looks sturdy and well thought out.
> 
> Cheers.


gigabyte x470 ultra gaming has the same upgrade too. these two mobos on the official site are shown as taiwaneses apaq caps even now. 
i think gigabyte is running out of taiwaneses apaq caps.

lets summon mattew to enlighten us 


currently asus has also some serious upgrade (new revision) on m10h wifi's vrm, making gaming 7 even less attractive.


----------



## AndyG

*Good thinking!!*



asdkj1740 said:


> gigabyte x470 ultra gaming has the same upgrade too. these two mobos on the official site are shown as taiwaneses apaq caps even now.
> i think gigabyte is running out of taiwaneses apaq caps.
> 
> lets summon mattew to enlighten us
> 
> 
> currently asus has also some serious upgrade (new revision) on m10h wifi's vrm, making gaming 7 even less attractive.


Heh Heh, I like it, running out of taiwanese caps! :specool:

Partly z370 was a bit of a rush job, so, similar to Kaby lake was used on many MOBOs. It's no excuse, the manufactures should have taken this into account, properly. Now months later there are quite a few RMAs due to problems caused by this. I like to think they have learnt their lesson, but I doubt it after watching one of Dbao8ers YouTube vids. (Sorry no link, forgot totally) (Oh, I know I spelt his name wrong - can just never remember it properly??:doh:


----------



## Icanthelplt90

encrypted11 said:


> Maybe you should try P3.10.
> They've moved the march '18 BIOS's L2 to L3 (~60mV droop), LLC2 is currently ~16mV droop I've tested these in fixed voltages.
> The L2 on BIOS 1.91E seemed slightly different from P3.10.


So this is soo much more stable! thanks


----------



## marcelock

I was in the doubt between creating a new Thread or post here ...
So if any moderator wants to delete one of them, no problem.
Thank you.

*Straight to the point, my question is which mATX motherboard to buy, considering only the options I can buy here in Brazil.
I was determined to buy the Z370-G Strix, but after watching a video of Buildzoid criticizing this card a lot, I was afraid I could not keep at least 5Ghz on my 8086K with it.*

As a designer, my main goal is work (Premiere, After Effects, Blender, Photoshop, etc.) and a few games in 1080p at the moment, my 4K monitor is just for work.

The options I can buy immediately here in Brazil are the below, in order of price converted to dollars. (Yes, prices in Brazil are absurd!!!)

- MSI Z370M Gaming Pro AC (Wi-Fi)
$ 398.92
Website: https://www.msi.com/Motherboard/Z370M-GAMING-PRO-AC









- Asus ROG STRIX Z370-G GAMING (Wi-Fi)
$ 236.79
Website: https://www.asus.com/Motherboards/ROG-STRIX-Z370-G-GAMING/overview/









- MSI Z370M Mortar
$ 185.39
Website: https://www.msi.com/Motherboard/Z370M-MORTAR









- ASROCK Z370M PRO 4
$ 180.02
Site: https://www.asrock.com/MB/Intel/Z370M Pro4/index.asp









- Gigabyte Z370M AORUS Gaming
$ 169.28
Website: https://www.gigabyte.com/Method/Z370M-AORUS-Gaming-rev-10#kf









My configuration so far, just missing the motherboard to finish:
i7 8086K (Long story short: A friend was going to bring the 8700K from the United States, but went out of stock the day I went to buy, and the price of 8086K on Amazon was still cheaper than buying 8700K here in Brazil.)
GTX 1070 TI ROG STRIX ADVANCED
NZXT H400i
NZXT KRAKEN X62
CORSAIR VENGEANCE RGB 32GB (2x16GB) DDR4 3000MHz
Samsung 960 EVO Series - 500GB NVMe
Crucial MX500 500GB 3D NAND
Corsair HX750 Platinum

If anyone can help, thank you very much !!!

(



)


----------



## GorbazTheDragon

Problem with the strix is the low efficiency combined with bad low side fets. I don't have much confidence in any of the options you listed, the MSi one is hardly better than the strix either...

EVGA Z370 micro is the only mATX board that really stands out as having a good VRM


----------



## mouacyk

I too am surprised EVGA wasn't on the list, for its adequate VRM and exceptional cooling. You are missing out on integrated graphics output and extra m.2 slot, though. However, that might be made up with the minimalist design and rotated connectors.


----------



## GorbazTheDragon

EVGA bios is usually shoddy and the motherboards are hard to get by in out of the way places (source: lived in chile for years)


----------



## marcelock

My list is based on the models that I can buy here in Brazil, I was not able to find any EVGA mATX boards in any brazilian vendors.
Considering the price, between Asus and MSI, I think I will bet in the Strix one...


----------



## wingman99

marcelock said:


> My list is based on the models that I can buy here in Brazil, I was not able to find any EVGA mATX boards in any brazilian vendors.
> Considering the price, between Asus and MSI, I think I will bet in the Strix one...


I wold purchase the ASUS it is the best choice.


----------



## otteros

Hello guys i have a question that has probably been asked before and i sorry for that, tomorrow i will be upgrading my processor to the I7 8700K only problem is that im not sure which motherboard should i go with. My budget are enough for GIGABYTE Z370 AORUS GAMING 5 and ASUS ROG STRIX Z370-F, at first i thought of just getting the Asus one then i found out this Z370 tier list stating that the Gigabyte Aorus gaming 5 are just a little ahead of the Asus one.
Z370 tier list - https://www.overclock.net/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=99753

Which motherboard should i go with? is the Gigabyte are way better than the Asus, or just a small amount?
Gigabyte are a little bit cheaper here in my country, and i guess they do have more LEDs. I will be doing light OC on my processor that will be cooled by Scythe Mugen 5rev.b and just be gaming.

Thanks, sorry my english is not my 1st language.


----------



## josephimports

Circuit analysis by Steve at Tweaktown for the EVGA Z370 Classified. Unfortunately, he too was unable to obtain a datasheet for the power stages. 

https://www.tweaktown.com/reviews/8712/evga-z370-classified-intel-motherboard-review/index3.html


----------



## GorbazTheDragon

otteros said:


> Hello guys i have a question that has probably been asked before and i sorry for that, tomorrow i will be upgrading my processor to the I7 8700K only problem is that im not sure which motherboard should i go with. My budget are enough for GIGABYTE Z370 AORUS GAMING 5 and ASUS ROG STRIX Z370-F, at first i thought of just getting the Asus one then i found out this Z370 tier list stating that the Gigabyte Aorus gaming 5 are just a little ahead of the Asus one.
> Z370 tier list - https://www.overclock.net/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=99753
> 
> Which motherboard should i go with? is the Gigabyte are way better than the Asus, or just a small amount?
> Gigabyte are a little bit cheaper here in my country, and i guess they do have more LEDs. I will be doing light OC on my processor that will be cooled by Scythe Mugen 5rev.b and just be gaming.
> 
> Thanks, sorry my english is not my 1st language.


Would really just suggest Z370 extreme4 or taichi for that price bracket and basically skip all other boards up to the hero.

EVGA boards are good but I haven't really heard much good about their BIOSes, but they might be interesting considering the prices too.


----------



## labeanchik

Do not know where to find the schematic for isl95866 ?

Nothing is in the datasheet : https://jp.intersil.com/content/dam/Intersil/documents/isl9/isl95866.pdf


----------



## cletus-cassidy

Gigabyte Z390 Aorus Elite leaked: https://hothardware.com/news/gigabyte-z390-aorus-elite-motherboard-leaks

Supposedly a 12+1 VRM, but the Elite apparently sits at the bottom of the rebadged product stack. 

Curious if manufacturers will include beefier VRMs and maybe a second 8-pin CPU power socket for the 8 core CPUs?


----------



## GorbazTheDragon

Any kind of "12" phase is probably an upgrade from their current Z370 lineup unless they pull that 1 high side fet for 2 chokes bull**** again...


----------



## AndyG

cletus-cassidy said:


> Gigabyte Z390 Aorus Elite leaked: https://hothardware.com/news/gigabyte-z390-aorus-elite-motherboard-leaks
> 
> Supposedly a 12+1 VRM, but the Elite apparently sits at the bottom of the rebadged product stack.
> 
> Curious if manufacturers will include beefier VRMs and maybe a second 8-pin CPU power socket for the 8 core CPUs?


One thing is sure. They will need to use better properly attatched heatsinks. I used to have Gaming 7 (z370) their flagship z370 board.
Mine died. Why? Because the heatsinks weren't properly attatched - this was after screwing them in a bit firmer. I know this happens to a minority of people, and the whole power delivery system on that board uses very high quality vrms - let down by pathetic heatsinks.
The cheaper Aorus gaming had to be changed to vs.2 But every review I read said the heatsinks AND vrms were just not enough.

It's only rumor but the the tdp is 95w same as coffee lake. A bit hard to believe but possible.
IMO, they and all mobo makers will need to add more or better vrms, and perhaps heatsinks. A lot of z370 boards used basically the kaby lake power delivery. This is enough probably without overclocking, but z370 was a rush job. I guess the manfacturers were rushing to get a product to market.

I now have a Taichi, and the vrms are just wonderful. Very impressed infact.

Gigabyte need to get their QC in order, and I hope that all manufactures will take this very seriously this time and provide good quality, and enough vrms mosfets etc. The heatsink but should be a given, but Gigabyte really screwed that up. Such a shame the mosfets and vrms were indeed some of the best.

Z390 boards should have good power delivery, with OC in mind. I can't really believe that with the extra cores it will be the same as coffee lake, but I may be wrong. It will all be very good if mobo makers use decent power delivery systems this time round.


----------



## AndyG

*Belated "Thank you." for Gorbaz*



GorbazTheDragon said:


> Taichi or the Hero are probably your best bets.
> 
> I hope you can solve the gaming 7 problem with GB or get a refund on it...


I forgot to thank you. You were spot on! I have read several of your posts on mobo/phases etc. You seem to be pretty well informed.

Good on ya!!:thumbsups


----------



## Glerox

Probably asked 100 times but can't read 209 pages... 

Do you guys thinks the Asus ROG strix z370-e will support the 9900K?

I don't see a good reason to pay the premium for z390 yet.
Also, I prefer the look of the Strix over the Maximus X hero (I know the Hero has better VRMs)

Thanks!


----------



## bl4ckdot

Glerox said:


> Probably asked 100 times but can't read 209 pages...
> 
> Do you guys thinks the Asus ROG strix z370-e will support the 9900K?
> 
> I don't see a good reason to pay the premium for z390 yet.
> Also, I prefer the look of the Strix over the Maximus X hero (I know the Hero has better VRMs)
> 
> Thanks!


Yes it does.


----------



## KedarWolf

Glerox said:


> Probably asked 100 times but can't read 209 pages...
> 
> Do you guys thinks the Asus ROG strix z370-e will support the 9900K?
> 
> I don't see a good reason to pay the premium for z390 yet.
> Also, I prefer the look of the Strix over the Maximus X hero (I know the Hero has better VRMs)
> 
> Thanks!


I might be wrong but I think Z370 only supports the 9700k and you need Z390 for a 9900k.


----------



## Glerox

KedarWolf said:


> I might be wrong but I think Z370 only supports the 9700k and you need Z390 for a 9900k.


Yes that seems unknow at the moment. Z370 will support "9th gen Intel cpus" but no confirmation yet that it will support the 8 cores/16 threads.


----------



## scracy

KedarWolf said:


> I might be wrong but I think Z370 only supports the 9700k and you need Z390 for a 9900k.


I think you will find Z370 does support 9900K as there has been a number of leaks that were on Z370 boards.
https://wccftech.com/intel-core-i9-9900k-cpu-3dmark-timespy-performance-benchmark-leak/


----------



## AlphaC

https://videocardz.com/newz/asrock-z390-series-motherboards-leaked
Asrock Z390 Phantom Gaming 9 (high end board / flagship)

Asrock Z390 Phantom Gaming 4 (appears to be low end budget board)
Asrock Z390 Phantom Gaming SLI/ac (seems similar to the Gaming 4 but with an upper heatsink) , this is a new change for Asrock as usually SLI/ac is lower in the product stack
Asrock Z390 Phantom Gaming ITX/ac --- looks to retain the ISL99227B powerstages, but wait for someone to take off the heatsinks
Asrock Z390 Extreme4 --- this appears to be the Z370 Extreme4 with a larger VRM heatsink , still no heatpipe though
Asrock Z390 Taichi ---- appearance change maybe , slightly larger VRM heatsink
* Taichi Ultimate (http://www.synnex.co.th/th/members/productdetail.aspx?Itemid=TVBHLVozOTAtR0FNSU5HLVBMVVM=)
Asrock Z390 Pro4 & Z390M Pro4 --- budget board , top VRM heatsink missing

https://videocardz.com/newz/asus-rog-strix-z390-i-and-prime-z390-a-motherboards-leaked
*STRIX Z390-I and PRIME Z390-A*

https://videocardz.com/newz/gigabytes-z390-i-aorus-pro-wifi-leaked
Gigabyte Z390 Aorus Extreme --- takes place of "Gaming 9" moniker

Gigabyte Z390 Aorus Master --- replaces "Gaming 7" naming
Gigabyte Z390 Aorus Ultra --- replaces "Gaming 5" naming
Gigabyte Z390 Aorus Pro --- replaces "Ultra Gaming"
Gigabyte Z390 Aorus Elite --- replaces "Gaming 3" 
Gigabyte Z390I Aorus Pro WIFI --- ITX

https://videocardz.com/newz/msis-mag-z390-tomahawk-and-mpg-z390-gaming-plus-motherboards-leaked
MSI MAG Z390 Tomahawk
MSI MPG Z390 Gaming Plus


Synnex (supplier) leaked MSI lineup
MEG-Z390-GODLIKE (http://www.synnex.co.th/th/members/productdetail.aspx?Itemid=TUVHLVozOTAtR09ETElLRQ==)

MEG-Z390-ACE (http://www.synnex.co.th/th/members/productdetail.aspx?Itemid=TUVHLVozOTAtQUNF)
MPG Z390 GAMING PRO CARBON AC (http://www.synnex.co.th/th/members/...emid=TVBHLVozOTAtR0FNSU5HLVBSTy1DQVJCT04tQUM=)
MPG Z390 GAMING EDGE AC (http://www.synnex.co.th/th/members/productdetail.aspx?Itemid=TVBHLVozOTAtR0FNSU5HLUVER0UtQUM=)
MPG Z390 GAMING PLUS (http://www.synnex.co.th/th/members/productdetail.aspx?Itemid=TVBHLVozOTAtR0FNSU5HLVBMVVM=)


----------



## asdkj1740

@br0da,
z370 m10h is confirmed to have the same vrm upgrade as m10h wifi.


----------



## scracy

New ROG Z390 Boards https://videocardz.com/78256/asus-z390-rog-maximus-xi-strix-prime-and-tuf-motherboards-leaked


----------



## encrypted11

scracy said:


> I think you will find Z370 does support 9900K as there has been a number of leaks that were on Z370 boards.
> https://wccftech.com/intel-core-i9-9900k-cpu-3dmark-timespy-performance-benchmark-leak/


The CPUID of the 8C+GT2 chip is 906EC. 906EC's microcode been in the Asus Z370 BIOS releases (1503) starting from late June.

We're on 906EA 6C+GT2


----------



## encrypted11

AlphaC said:


> https://videocardz.com/newz/asrock-z390-series-motherboards-leaked
> Asrock Z390 Phantom Gaming 9 (high end board / flagship)
> 
> Asrock Z390 Phantom Gaming 4 (appears to be low end budget board)
> Asrock Z390 Phantom Gaming SLI/ac (seems similar to the Gaming 4 but with an upper heatsink) , this is a new change for Asrock as usually SLI/ac is lower in the product stack
> Asrock Z390 Phantom Gaming ITX/ac --- looks to retain the ISL99227B powerstages, but wait for someone to take off the heatsinks
> Asrock Z390 Extreme4 --- this appears to be the Z370 Extreme4 with a larger VRM heatsink , still no heatpipe though
> Asrock Z390 Taichi ---- appearance change maybe , slightly larger VRM heatsink
> * Taichi Ultimate (http://www.synnex.co.th/th/members/productdetail.aspx?Itemid=TVBHLVozOTAtR0FNSU5HLVBMVVM=)
> Asrock Z390 Pro4 & Z390M Pro4 --- budget board , top VRM heatsink missing


The positioning is seemingly
Killer SLI/SLI ac ->Phantom Gaming 4
Extreme4 -> No change
Fatal1ty K6 -> Phantom Gaming 6
Fatal1ty Pro i7 -> Phantom Gaming 9
Fatal1ty Gaming-ITX/ac -> Phantom Gaming-ITX/ac
Taichi -> No change

There might be a different PCB out there that's unrelated to the Taichi (Phamtom Gaming 9 PCB, likely the relation shared last year). That's the Z390 Taichi Ultimate 

Source: ASrock


----------



## asdkj1740

seems lots of z390 have no upgrade on vrm phase count...i hope this time those 8 phases are achieved by doublers.


----------



## br0da

asdkj1740 said:


> @br0da,
> z370 m10h is confirmed to have the same vrm upgrade as m10h wifi.


Great stuff, thx mate! I'll put 'WiFi' in brackets by now for the new Rev.


----------



## asdkj1740

br0da said:


> Great stuff, thx mate! I'll put 'WiFi' in brackets by now for the new Rev.


rev1.01 ))
it is the the best supply shortage i have ever seen lol.


----------



## SpeedyIV

asdkj1740 said:


> rev1.01 ))
> it is the the best supply shortage i have ever seen lol.


Hi. I am confused. Are you saying Asus changed the VRM design in the Max X Hero / Hero WiFi, and that there is an updated REV of the MOBO? The reason I ask is soon after these boards were released, there were conflicting reports about VRM temperature reporting. A few people reported that VRM Temps were reported in the EC section, but most have reported that they don't get any VRM temp reporting from this board. Mine has never reported VRM temp so I ended up sticking a temp probe up under the heat sink and hoping for the best. If there was a VRM re-design (upgrade) that may explain the mystery of the vanishing VRM temp reporting.

Thanks

edit to add - I am attaching 2 screen shots of the Asus MAx X Hero WiFi web page. The one showing a thermometer at the VRM heat sink was taken in January of 2018. The one with no thermometer at the VRM heat sink was taken today. Despite repeated requests to an Asus rep who posts here on occasion, no comment or confirmation of a design changed that resulted in no VRM temp reporting was ever made. There were some threads about this on the ROG forum too. Again, no comment from Asus.


----------



## Glerox

Does anybody knows the reason for this Rev update?


----------



## fullderp

This is exactly the thread I need.


I have a friend I'm giving my AsRock Z370 ITX / AC to, it's been good for me, with an i5 8400, really happy with it (ESPECIALLY the price)

I have come into a bit of money, I want to run an AsRock z390 ITX (soon?) with an i9 9900k on it. I know it's a fairly budget board though.
How is AsRock for such a beasty CPU? I saw some comments suggesting z370 / 8700k the VRM struggled a lot.

I don't intend to overclock very much, except for memory. Is AsRock VRM getting better nowadays?


EDIT:
I just found some foreign news link, claiming the Z390 ITX AC (the basic one) is 6 phase only, I would like to think it's good enough but I defer to the experts here.


----------



## encrypted11

@elmor, the gene is covering the 1DPC spot in place of the missing impact?


----------



## elmor

encrypted11 said:


> @elmor, the gene is covering the 1DPC spot in place of the missing impact?


Can't comment on future products :h34r-smi


----------



## encrypted11

elmor said:


> Can't comment on future products :h34r-smi


But the buzz generation marketing people have told the internet!



Spoiler















Aww I should have put it another way! Has the impact been resurrected? :h34r-smi
I'd like to hear can't comment or no! :specool:


----------



## Sin0822

elmor said:


> Can't comment on future products :h34r-smi


Two 8-pin? Interesting


----------



## zGunBLADEz

ditching this strix 370-G asap for that gene maximus hell yeah...

asus should need to reimburse me full price for the money i wasted on the mobo and monoblock for using it


----------



## orbitalwalsh

Aorus Master will handle 480A across the VCore , same units as in X470 7


----------



## Knjaz136

Preview of MSI Z390's.


----------



## AlphaC

zGunBLADEz said:


> ditching this strix 370-G asap for that gene maximus hell yeah...
> 
> asus should need to reimburse me full price for the money i wasted on the mobo and monoblock for using it


While I don't think Buildzoid calling it trash is fair (the Z370-A it is based off is a midrange board) , that is a bit of an overreaction since you can run the top CPU at stock. I think I've stated before that nothing comes free, there's an audio upgrade on the ROG STRIX boards and a slightly different BIOS on it and those cost money on top of the ROG marketing premium. Trash would be those X370-A boards or B350/B450 ROG STRIX boards.



orbitalwalsh said:


> Aorus Master will handle 480A across the VCore , same units as in X470 7


Pictures are worth a thousand words 

How are you obtaining this figure? 12 x 40A Powerstages? Because if you factor in heat that isn't realistic.




Knjaz136 said:


> Preview of MSI Z390's.
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I4SXEeg9a8U


TL;DW
18 phase MEG Godlike 
MEG ACE ... a cut down Godlike with 13 phase (7 chokes at CPU side and 6 chokes at top so I don't think this is all for VCORE) , notable is the Debug LED

MPG Pro Carbon (MPG = Gaming segment) , looks to be a copy paste job of the Z370 version
MPG Gaming Edge --- 6 chokes at CPU side and 5 chokes at top ; audio shielding
MAG Tomahawk "built like a tank" , picture has 6 chokes at CPU side and 3 chokes at top so I wouldn't trust this marketing BS
MAG Mortar
Gaming Plus --- budget garbage

see also https://videocardz.com/newz/msis-z390-meg-godlike-mpg-gaming-pro-carbon-mpg-edge-leaked


----------



## TheTripleHelix

I know it's early to tell which are the most competitive z390 boards, but based on the design of the msi ACE and gaming pro carbon:

1) How do they fare against the existing z370 lineup?

2) Is it worth spending say 50 more dollars for the ace over the carbon ac?

I'm 4 years overdue a new build and mobo/cpu(9900k) are my only missing parts. Thanks


----------



## asdkj1740

asus recently rolls out lots of z370 reflesh models.
the z370a II is promising.
NCP302045, 45a
to me it seems to be (8)+1. 8 in parallel.
no doublers no drivers, same asp1400 controller.

i have seen some z390 msi models seem be to having just one phases for the igpu, so i guess the reflesh z370a II got the same design too.


----------



## asdkj1740

gigabyte hd3p z370's vrm output caps changes to Nippon Chemi-Con cap from fp5k.
seems gigabyte is running out of fp5k.


----------



## AlphaC

It looks like the ACE is higher up in the lineup by a long shot. It has a heatpipe and the upgraded chokes from the Godlike/Titanium boards. 13 phases could be achieved by 12+1 , 10+2+1,10+3, 8+5 , 8+3+2 ... we can't be sure at this time because there isn't a picture of the back of it. Keep in mind that the Z370 Taichi had 14 chokes but only 10 were for V_Core.

Given that the inductors/chokes aren't a typical failure point , I would say the (overclocking) point of buying the ACE is the debug code LED. That's a feature that is going to debut on some competing boards from Asrock (i.e. Taichi , whatever is above Extreme4) and Gigabyte (Aorus Master, Ultra) so I would hold on that board until the entire lineup from all manufacturers are launched. There's also Asus boards but nothing I've seen suggests there are any really major changes for the non-ROG boards outside of the power delivery (a ROG board is required to obtain a Code LED). Asus did manage to put more graffiti everywhere though .

asdkj1740 , can you check the continuity if you have access to the board? It would confirm how many are for V_Core.


http://www.onsemi.com/pub/Collateral/NCP302045-D.PDF
"Capable of Average Currents up to 45 A" , not much upgrade over IR3553 probably other than thermal monitor , I need to calculate


edit: TPU pricing leak


https://www.techpowerup.com/248210/newegg-canada-inadvertently-shows-z390-motherboard-pricing

_ORDER BY PRICE_:
MSI Z390 Godlike $858 CAD rolleyes
Gigabyte Aorus Master $469 CAD
MSI Z390 Ace $419 CAD <--- half the price of the Godlike ...
Gigabyte Z390 Aorus Ultra $410 CAD
MSI Z390 Pro Carbon AC $334 CAD <-- the Z370 one is $270 CAD
Gigabyte Aorus Pro WIFI $330 CAD
Gigabyte Aorus Pro $310 CAD
MSI Z390 Pro carbon $292 CAD <-- the Z370 one is $225 CAD
Gigabyte Aorus Elite $292 CAD

MSI Z390 Edge $278 CAD

Gigabyte Z390 Gaming SLI $261 CAD
Gigabyte Z390 Gaming X $245 CAD
Gigabyte Z390 UD $214 CAD
MSI Z390-A Pro $208 CAD


edit 2: see Taichi review https://www.chiphell.com/thread-1915173-1-1.html
seems TI NExFETs were used on it


----------



## tonyptony

Hi everyone. I've been away a long, long time, but it's now time to build a newer system. I've been looking at the ASRock Z370 boards, but was with respect to the quality of the VRMs couldn't tell if any of their Micro or Mini boards had a VRM of the same performance as like the Extreme 4 (which is the ATX I'm considering right now). Thanks.


----------



## asdkj1740

some news about gigabyte z390s:

1. the highest end model has 16 phases vcore, the second one has 12

2. all aorus mobo got ir3553 40a doubled by ir doublers(ir3599 or ir3598) and controlled by ir pwm contoller
interesting gigabyte explicilty states that 12 phases are "true". if you remeber what they had done on b450.

3. adds 2 times copper inside the pcb helping cooling (i guess it is like the kingpin 1080ti?)

*4. 1.5mm 5k/mk thermal pad from LAIRD is used!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!that is the most fcuking important thing that gigabyte has been fcuking up on z370!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 1.5MM MASTERRACEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!*

5. hdt as always....i dont like it in such way of not being soldered into the middle of the fin/heatsink. i remeber gamersnexus's review shows it is not efficient to really transfer the heat from mosfets to the upper fin/heatsink.

6. the fan controll now supports gpu temp as a source!!!!!!!!!!! great job!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

7. bios got tweaked to be more user friendly. lol.

8. still got dual bios, but dont know whether it is still implemented stupidly.

i am so happy gigabyte finally makes the right choice of thermal pad thickness being used. they could have stood out on the mid range z370 by ultra gaming 2.0.
gigabyte z370 ddr4 overclocking is shiit, i hope the z390s would be far better.
again, gigabyte seems dont even know the existence of ir3555 60a, sadly.


----------



## asdkj1740

@br0da
asus z370p
asp1400, true 4+2, "CHE" driver*6

vcore high side 4c09b*1 + low side 4c06b*1
igpu high side 4c09b*1 + low side 4c09b*1
the last phase should be vccsa, controlled by RT8125DGQW, a controller that integraded driver, controlling high side 4c09b*1 + low side 4c06b*1


----------



## asdkj1740

https://videocardz.com/newz/evga-z390-ftw-motherboard-leaked
evga z390 ftw cuts graphics output, seem none of the phases is for igpu.
then all 8 phaese should be for vcore, with 4+4 pcb layout which is the best to spread out the heat to each of the two heatsink !


----------



## asdkj1740

insane search engine bulit in @AlphaC. lol.

i dont have proper tools nor knowledge to do that sorry. 
asp1400 is a very popular asus controller and as far as i know it always come as 4+2 max. i doubit it has 8 pwm signal output.
asked elmor about that however becuase he is not working on prime series so we dont have a answer for that.
maybe you go ask elmor about the asp1400 controller info then we could confirm the vrm setup on this z370a II as well as some z390 with the same vrm layout.


taichi z390, csd87350d, asrock favorite mosfet
the chinese guy said it is 12+2, i doubt that.
i think it should be 10+2, 5 doubers for vcore, and 1 doublers for igpu.
the markings clear state that two SM7341EH phases are for vccsa and vccio. however asrock markings near phases on z370s are somehow messed up that we cant simply trust them.

z390 are already being sold on asia, we may see more info from chinese sites.
https://hk.xfastest.com/15882/asrock-z390-taichi-ultimate-motherboard-review/
https://www.hkepc.com/17294/全新_INTEL_Z390_晶片組_ASROCK_Z390_TAICHI_主機板
edited: csd87350d confirmed


----------



## AlphaC

It would be 10+2 on Taichi because it's labeled (same as Z370).


----------



## asdkj1740

AlphaC said:


> It would be 10+2 on Taichi because it's labeled (same as Z370).


agree
it also proves z370 taichi is not using any doubling scheme


----------



## GBT-MatthewH

Enjoy :0

CPU Vcore phase: 12 Digital 
CPU VccGT phase: 2 Digital 
Vcore PWM: IR35201 6(6)+2
Vcore phase doubler:	6 * IR3599
Vcore MOS: 12 * IR3553 40A
VccGT MOS: Vishay PPak 50A - 1H1L


----------



## wingman99

asdkj1740 said:


> agree
> it also proves z370 taichi is not using any doubling scheme


Real phase is 5X2 so it is doubled.


----------



## GBT-MatthewH

Heatsink + Voltage readouts


----------



## josephimports

GBT-MatthewH said:


> Enjoy :0
> 
> CPU Vcore phase: 12 Digital
> CPU VccGT phase: 2 Digital
> Vcore PWM: IR35201 6(6)+2
> Vcore phase doubler:	6 * IR3599
> Vcore MOS: 12 * IR3553 40A
> VccGT MOS: Vishay PPak 50A - 1H1L





GBT-MatthewH said:


> Heatsink + Voltage readouts


Very nice! Thanks for the pics.


----------



## AlphaC

The voltage readout points are what set it apart from the "wannabe" overclocking boards IMO.
If it's packing 12x IR3553 it's a stronger board in terms of ripple and heat vs the Taichi as well , especially given the heatpiped finned heatsink. The FP caps are unlabeled but given the number of phases I wouldn't be worried.


----


As far as other manufacturers, it looks like Asrock's Phantom Gaming 6 could be a good budget board if it's a copy paste job from Z370's K6 , although I would hold out for the full information on the GBT Aorus Ultra midrange board!
https://www.asrock.com/mb/Intel/Z390 Phantom Gaming 6/index.asp
" Dual-Stack MOSFET (DSM)" --- TI NEXFET or Sinopower dual-N fet

"ASRock Hyper BCLK Engine II" --- BCLK

"2 x 128Mb AMI UEFI Legal BIOS with multilingual GUI support (1 x Main BIOS and 1 x Backup BIOS)"
Power+ reset + Debug LED


edit:


*My personal list of boards to watch by category:*
*Ridiculous price category , why is this on mainstream boards socket?:*
MSI Godlike

*High end , OC i9-9900K material? (in alphabetical order) ... expect $250-300 valuation at launch: *
Asrock Phantom Gaming 9 , Taichi Ultimate / Taichi (Dual BIOS) ... geekbench with i9-9900k already, Z390 Phantom Gaming-ITX/ac
Asus ROG Extreme (EATX) ... probably more than $300, Formula/Code, Hero, Gene
EVGA Z390 Dark?
GBT Aorus Extreme (16x 60A powerstages ?), Aorus Master (heatpiped finned heatsink, IR3553x12) ... dual BIOS
MSI MEG Ace? ... bios flashback , unknown components with heatpiped heatsink
*
Mid-end , OC i9-9700K material ... expect $180-250 valuation at launch*
Asrock Phantom Gaming 6 --- debug LED, power +reset , dual-N FETS , heatpipe
EVGA Z390 FTW
(tentative) Gigabyte Aorus Ultra --- debug LED , heatpipe 

*
Honorable mentions*
Asus STRIX Z390-E, Z390-A --- powerstages but no debug features or heatpipe 
Asrock Extreme4 (Dual BIOS) --- this board is a cut down Phantom Gaming 6 without BCLK or debug LED / Power/reset , no heatpipe
Gigabyte Z390 Aorus Pro , Elite : these are clearly cut down but by how much? no debug LED or heatpipe visible
MSI Z390 MPG Pro Carbon / AC (preliminary pricing suggests it is priced too high) , no heatpipe , MPG Edge , MAG Tomahawk (maybe)



Tom's hardware did a straight CAD to USD conversion which is not the right way to go about it. https://www.tomshardware.com/news/gigabyte-msi-z390-motherboard-pricing,37890.html


----------



## GBT-MatthewH

Not really VRM but thought you might enjoy this too...


----------



## GBT-MatthewH

AlphaC said:


> The FP caps are unlabeled but given the number of phases I wouldn't be worried.


Caps say:
FP 
86GC
5 6 1
6.3


----------



## GBT-MatthewH

All with true doublers?  Enjoy the weekend

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1l2FHTvye2cYp6D2lfUqHJLqMltR0Z2dQkqGDDz119AQ/edit?usp=sharing


----------



## AlphaC

I mean the hours rating, for example the Taichi says FP 12K on it.

Anyhow: https://www.vishay.com/docs/76784/sic634.pdf

Looks to be better than the Z390-A for the lower models (Aorus Pro/Elite) because 12 are used for VCore.








edit: another Z390 Taichi review https://forum.gamer.com.tw/C.php?bsn=60030&snA=505109
TI NExFETs ; IR3599 on back again



Maxsun Z390 (https://videocardz.net/mobo/maxsun-z390-icraft/):


----------



## asdkj1740

GBT-MatthewH said:


> All with true doublers?  Enjoy the weekend
> 
> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1l2FHTvye2cYp6D2lfUqHJLqMltR0Z2dQkqGDDz119AQ/edit?usp=sharing


nice chart!

gigabyte finned heaksink will fly this time, with high quailty thermal pad!


----------



## Glerox

Hey guys, quick question.

I'm looking for a Z390/9900K Asus build and I won't do heavy OC. Just like put a waterblock and increase Frequency/Voltage, nothing crazy.
Do I really need a Maximus board for that (with more power/better VRMs) or just a ROG strix Z390-E would be plenty enough?

I know the difference between Maximus X Hero and Strix Z370-E with the 8700K was like 5.1Ghz vs 5 Ghz lol, so I wonder what's the point of getting a Maximus board?

Thanks


----------



## HKPolice

Seems to me like the old GB Z370 Gaming 7 has better mosfets: ISL99227B @ ~95% efficiency & 60A max whereas the new GB Z390 boards are using IR3553 @ 93% eff and 40A max or SiC634 @ 92% eff and 50A.


----------



## asdkj1740

Got the gigabyte ud to play with 8700k 
200w is piece of cake


----------



## czin125

Wouldn't it save board space to go with that infineon solution for 10x1 ( no doubling ) and can output 600-700A?



HKPolice said:


> Seems to me like the old GB Z370 Gaming 7 has better mosfets: ISL99227B @ ~95% efficiency & 60A max whereas the new GB Z390 boards are using IR3553 @ 93% eff and 40A max or SiC634 @ 92% eff and 50A.


The ISL99227B is somewhere around ~92-90% at 240A in 6phase operation.


----------



## AlphaC

HKPolice said:


> Seems to me like the old GB Z370 Gaming 7 has better mosfets: ISL99227B @ ~95% efficiency & 60A max whereas the new GB Z390 boards are using IR3553 @ 93% eff and 40A max or SiC634 @ 92% eff and 50A.


It's far cheaper to use a IR3553 since supplier agreements mean they likely have a whole bunch of them still lying around from the Z77/Z87 days. A business exists to make money.

The ISL99227B is better for higher voltage (the efficiency curve uses 1.8V as baseline) but is it 1.5X better? Unlikely even if you factor in the 6x6mm package vs 4x6mm package of IR3553 due to the thermal management of a thermal pad and VRM heatsink. ISL99227B datasheets do include inductor losses though.

We're talking about 8 phases of ISL99227B vs 12 phases of IR3553.

Since the i9-9900k and i7-9700k are still on 14nm we can presume that 160W from i7-8086K * 8 cores / 6 cores = 213W or so for an average OC ; keeping in mind the baseline standard for X299 i7s was around 250W

8 phase ISL99227B with 4x ISL6617 phase doublers = 1/8 of the current load , assuming 93% efficiency you obtain around 2W of heat <--- Z370 G7 (ISL99227B costs around $7 each)









12 phase IR3553 with 6 IR3599 phase doublers = 1/12 of the current load , for instance at 200 to 260W output it would be about 1.5 to 2W of heat per powerstage which should put temps in the low seventies at 22°C/W <--- Z390 Aorus Master (each IR3553 costs around $3 even when purchasing 10,000+ so this wasn't a large cost savings)









12 phase SiC634 (5x5mm packaging) with 6 ISL6617 phase doublers = 1/12 of the current load , at ~200W output and around 90% efficiency it would result in just under 2W of heat per powerstage and the thermal resistance is very low per Vishay (10.6°C/W to ambient , 1.6°C/W to the mosfet casing) <--- Z390 Aorus Elite/Pro , artificially held back by lack of heatpiping fins probably (each powerstage costs around $1.10 to $1.15 when purchased in rolls of 1000+)









16 phase TDA21462 <--- Z390 Aorus Extreme , no datasheet from Infineon but supposed to cost around $1.60 per powerstage (source: AVNET asia) so they aren't exactly cheap

10 phase TI NEXFET (aka CSD87350 with 6x4mm packaging) with 5 x IR3598 dual interleaved driver/doublers= 1/10 of current load , at 200W it will be 2W of losses which will be outright worse than the result from the aforementioned Aorus boards due to higher heat concentration, an added driver, and larger ripple <--- Z390 Taichi








Power numbers estimated from the latest 14nm i7-8086K:
https://www.anandtech.com/show/12945/the-intel-core-i7-8086k-review/3
https://www.gamersnexus.net/guides/3343-binning-a-cpu-volt-frequency-intel-i7-8086k




Glerox said:


> Hey guys, quick question.
> 
> I'm looking for a Z390/9900K Asus build and I won't do heavy OC. Just like put a waterblock and increase Frequency/Voltage, nothing crazy.
> Do I really need a Maximus board for that (with more power/better VRMs) or just a ROG strix Z390-E would be plenty enough?
> 
> I know the difference between Maximus X Hero and Strix Z370-E with the 8700K was like 5.1Ghz vs 5 Ghz lol, so I wonder what's the point of getting a Maximus board?
> 
> Thanks


If you're getting a Z390-E it probably won't overclock as well as the Hero. It's not just the mosfets but overall board design, in the past the STRIX boards have had the same PCB as the Z___-A so it is essentially a reskin with better audio and minor changes such as thermal sensors. For what I've seen of Z390-A and Z390-E STRIX boards I would expect average results. I'm sure it will do alright especially with a waterblock over the entire power delivery, but if the competitor boards do just as well but have quality of life features (Debug LED for example) and BIOS flashing options (even MSI does now) I would evaluate all options.

Why does it have to be ASUS? Just curious.

edit: if the Z390-E uses the same board design as the Z390-a it is likely 8+1 with Onsemi NCP302045

With 200w output and 8 phases , you're looking at 90-91% efficiency but with heat spread over 8 powerstages. That's about 2.5W per powerstage. The thermal conductivity is quoted as 12.4 °C/W so it should perform decently.















edit 2:


winter2 said:


> Hi guys what do you think, will be good to run Gigabyte gaming 5 with 9900k (with OC) ??
> I read about that 1x8 PIN for cpu will be not enough..do you agree ?
> Thanks


If it's the Z370 Gaming 5 with the Ultra PCB I personally wouldn't try it overclocked unless you slap a fan on it and don't expect spectacular results. 8x Onsemi 4C10N + 4C06N with ISL6625A suggests it isn't a "real" doubling scheme. In addition, those mosfets aren't as high efficiency as powerstages or dual-N fets such as TI NexFET.
It has nothing to do with the single 8 pin power connector.

https://www.tweaktown.com/reviews/8460/gigabyte-z370-aorus-gaming-5-motherboard-review/index3.html

I would have zero qualms with the implications of an i9-9900K on the successor z390 Aorus Ultra though.


----------



## zGunBLADEz

AlphaC said:


> While I don't think Buildzoid calling it trash is fair (the Z370-A it is based off is a midrange board) , that is a bit of an overreaction since you can run the top CPU at stock. I think I've stated before that nothing comes free, there's an audio upgrade on the ROG STRIX boards and a slightly different BIOS on it and those cost money on top of the ROG marketing premium. Trash would be those X370-A boards or B350/B450 ROG STRIX boards.



im sorry but the board is pure trash with ROG brand name on it.. overpriced too. That board is 125$ TOPS
ASUS killed the maximus brand and brought up the strix crap instead.
Had maximus boards all way up to z97 including mAtx and itx flavors even the first board with daughter board for the vrms P8z77-I deluxe which was a beauty of a board.


Im sorry but that Asus B350-I and the B450/X470-I variants can handle a 8core NO PROBLEMS and are better boards than intel counterparts


----------



## winter2

Hi guys what do you think, will be good to run Gigabyte gaming 5 with 9900k (with OC) ??
I read about that 1x8 PIN for cpu will be not enough..do you agree ?
Thanks


----------



## zGunBLADEz

anything that cant handle a 8700K overclocked getting close to 80-100c on the vrms would be able to handle a 9900k overclocked.

I have seen my 8700K at over 220W all by itself... I would not trust nothing with less than a good 8 phase to handle a 9900K overclocked with active cooled vrms..


----------



## asdkj1740

the heatsink design of gigabyte low end z390s is limiting the 10/12 phases's full potential.


----------



## farmdve

Anyone have any clue whether ASRock will update the z370 Extreme 4 to support 9900k?


----------



## asdkj1740

farmdve said:


> Anyone have any clue whether ASRock will update the z370 Extreme 4 to support 9900k?


hardwareunbox said all z370 are going to support 8c16t new cpu.


----------



## encrypted11

Glerox said:


> Hey guys, quick question.
> 
> I'm looking for a Z390/9900K Asus build and I won't do heavy OC. Just like put a waterblock and increase Frequency/Voltage, nothing crazy.
> Do I really need a Maximus board for that (with more power/better VRMs) or just a ROG strix Z390-E would be plenty enough?
> 
> I know the difference between Maximus X Hero and Strix Z370-E with the 8700K was like 5.1Ghz vs 5 Ghz lol, so I wonder what's the point of getting a Maximus board?
> 
> Thanks


If the last generation is an indication,
5K Apaq (MIL) vs Nichicon FP10K
4 layer PCB vs. ~8 layer PCB
Stable memory frequency yields are far lower on the 4 layer T-Topology boards.


----------



## AlphaC

asdkj1740 said:


> the heatsink design of gigabyte low end z390s is limiting the 10/12 phases's full potential.


 It is but at least it has a heatpipe on the low-midrange.
https://www.gigabyte.com/us/Motherboard/Z390-AORUS-PRO-WIFI-rev-10#kf


----------



## asdkj1740

AlphaC said:


> It is but at least it has a heatpipe on the low-midrange.
> https://www.gigabyte.com/us/Motherboard/Z390-AORUS-PRO-WIFI-rev-10#kf


this heatsink should be okay even without the heatpipe.
the z370 ug 2.0 heatsink may not have good enough surface area but it is thick and heavy.

the heatsinks of z390 ud and gaming x are not good, too light. the surface area on top is poor. 
putting a 80mm fan at 1500rpm verticaly blowing to the top of the heatsink just get ~4c drop, but blowing to the side of the heatsink got me ~10c drop.
still, even 10c is not great enough for active cooling. the heatsink is not good on low end z390 from gigabyte.


i am interesting in the lowest end z390 to see how far they can go with 8700k & 9900k.
the gigabyte z390 ud has 10 phases doubled.
8700K 5ghz delidded & maxing out all power limits on bios: 
1.4v / 210w / 106c vrm temp without any throttling /ambient temp 25c / open bench.
1.35v / 200w/ 97c vrm temp without any throttling /ambient temp 25c / open bench..
so z390 ud can just take 1.3~1.35v. and i doubt the power limit is getting hidden locked at 200w for 8700k. i cant break the 200w wall and i doubt on 9900k the z390 ud power consumption can go further significantly (the current limit on the bios is locked that users cant tweak it at all, just like the z370 hd3)

one thing for sure, even the cheapest end gigabyte z390 is using 1.5mm thick thermal pad, although it is not from larid 5w/mk.
it should be the same as z370, according to mattew it is 1.8w/mk.

too tired now at 4am, i will post some pics tmr


----------



## farmdve

asdkj1740 said:


> hardwareunbox said all z370 are going to support 8c16t new cpu.


Cool, and do you think the 9900k will be ok on such a motherboard? No issue OCing such a beast on it?


----------



## winter2

asdkj1740 said:


> hardwareunbox said all z370 are going to support 8c16t new cpu.


One thing is support from vendor and second overheating VRMS and thermal throttling.
It is hapening so often on different platforms so I rather trust guys on forums and not vendors.

btw new video from Buildzoid about z390 gigabyte is out


----------



## Kindredice

I am considering going from 8600K to 9700K, hope my 10 phase MSI Z370 SLI PLUS does well with overclocking it.


----------



## F-man4

fullderp said:


> EDIT:
> I just found some foreign news link, claiming the Z390 ITX AC (the basic one) is 6 phase only, I would like to think it's good enough but I defer to the experts here.


5 Phases IR > 6 Phases Powerblock.


----------



## asdkj1740

winter2 said:


> One thing is support from vendor and second overheating VRMS and thermal throttling.
> It is hapening so often on different platforms so I rather trust guys on forums and not vendors.
> 
> btw new video from Buildzoid about z390 gigabyte is out https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aVUON93T2j4


<125C overheat is not a problem if the power/cpu usage/voltage/cpu frequecncy do not drop.
what gigabyte has done on z370 beside the thermal pad thickness problem is that they have tweaked to very low thermal limits to the vrm casuing lots of drops on above factors hurting performance. the limit is like ~90c vrm temp.

i tested the z390 ud and put 1.42v on the vcore on prime95 small fft for ~30mins, even the vrm was near 110c, no any throttling at all.
i am not saying the cheapest ud mobo is good enough for all extensive workloads but it definitely helps extending the time before throttlings.

i am very curious on how 9900k behaves on stock as 9900k have super high turbo boost clock for all 8c that we may dont even need to manually overclock it to gain any practical benefit from it. i cant say for now that the cheapest gigabyte z390 can serve 9900k at stock well, this is the most interesting part to the z390 ann 9900k.

a golden sample of 9900k es can do 5.3ghz <1.4v on cinebench, same as 8700k.


----------



## asdkj1740

gigabyte z390 gaming x

8+4 eps cpu connector
ISL69138 in 5+2 mode
vcore 4C06N+4C10N
5*ISL6617A doublers
10*ISL6625A drivers
therefore 10 doubled
1.5mm thick thermal pad, the thermal conductivity seems to be the same as on z370 which is 1.8w/mk according to mattewh.

the heatsink design is better than that on z370 hd3p, and should be close to that on z370 ultra gaming.
not too bad, but dont good enough too.

for the igpu part, the mosfets are marked as 4c06 and 4c10 too, but in significantly small package.
the drivers behind are two isl6596. it proves that isl6596 is not a doubler although in its datasheet "Drives two N-Channel MOSFETs" is stated.


----------



## asdkj1740

z390 ud, cheapest atx model of gigabyte z390. 
the vrm design are identical to z390 gamingx, but the heatsink is worse...
i dont like gigabyte using heatsink desgin to differentiate product positioning.


8+4 eps cpu connector
ISL69138 in 5+2 mode

vcore 4C06N+4C10N
5*ISL6617A doublers
10*ISL6625A drivers
therefore 10 doubled vcore

igpu 4C06+4C10 in very samll package 
no doublers
2*ISL6596 drivers
therefore 2 phases for igpu

(black 1.8w/mk) 1.5mm thick thermal pad is being used too.
larid 5w/mk seems to be used only on z390 aorus master, and as far as i know larid 5w/mk is not in black color, i have been using the same model on my z370 ug2.0, they are very good and very expensive compared to 3m ~1w/mk pad.


----------



## asdkj1740

i pick z390 ud to test with 8700k because it is the cheapest atx model. i would like to see how far can this cheapest atx model go.

the bios on ud series (ud/gaming x/gaming sli) has the old unchanged user interface. the new user interface seems to be limited on aorus series.

for llc, there is a new level called ultra extreme, which overshoot almost 0.1v. i set 1.35v but on hwinfo64 it reports 1.43v.
on turbo mode slighly drops 0.05 only. i set 1.35 and on hwinfo64 it reports 1.344 lowest. but i also try setting it to 1.4v and it eventually drops to 1.38v.
didnt try the extreme mode but i would go for turbo mode only becuase you should not try 1.4v on this mobo.

for power limit watt and power limit time, the max units are 4090 and 127 respectively.
you cant type 9999 or 2555 to get the max level. very stupid bios lol.
core current limit is greyed out, cant tweak this at all, at leaset on f3 bios.

the lastest BETA version of hwinfo64 can read out the ite monitoring controller, otherwise temp 5 refers to vrm mos temp and temp 3 refers to cpu socket temp.

setup: 
z390 ud f3 bios, maxed out all power limit watt and time and disabling all c states.
open bench, placing the z390 ud on top of a large size foam (vrm heat on the pcb back side got trapped)
amibent temp 25c
8700k(not delidded and delidded afterward)
dual fans d15s cpu cooler, with another enermax 2000rpm 120mm fan mounted to the front side pushing.
adata xpg z1 3600c17 8g*2 samsung b die xmp enabled
gigabyte gt1030 lp for graphics output
was using antec hcp 850, but one of the wire accidentially got pulled off from the 24pin connector lol, changed to acbel i90m 700 (with dual 8pin eps cpu connector)

running prime95 small ftt preset
8700k 5ghz (didnt delidded )1.4v gives me cpu package power ~210w and cpu 120c, shutdown immediately lol.
then i delid it to aviod cpu temp throttling and instability.

turbro llc, maxing out all power limit, 5ghz cpu, xmp ddr4 3600.
for 1.35v vcore, the mos temp reported by hwinfo64 starts at 88c then go up to 93c after few minutes. i think the large foam under the mobo traps a lot of heat.
for 1.4v vcore, starts at 86c then go to 106c max on vrm temp reported by hwinfo64. 

tried to put a 8cm fan at 1500rpm pushing air vertically to the heatsink and result in only 4c mos temp drop; putting the fan blowing air to the side of the heatsink gets ~10c drop on mos temp.
however, even at 106c, there is not any throttling at all.

at 1.35v, i use thermal ir gun gif to check the vrm back side pcb temp, ~91c. 

about ddr4 overclocking, gigabyte has been doing great on xmp mode, but they are suck at manually tweaking. again, i cant oc the xpg 3600c17 8g*2 b die above the xmp rated frequency.

some thoughts:
1. you should not go above 1.35v vcore on z390 ud, the vrm heatsink cant take that for prime95.
2. turbo mode on llc is good enough. dont try ultra extreme mode. you could try extreme mode.
3. 200w is easy for z390 ud to handle on 8700k. however given the vrm temp at 1.35v vcore, i doubt ud z390 can go significantly further. 
4. z390 ud is at least on par with z370 ultra gaming 2.0. stop buying z370 except the refresh models like asus z370 a ii(it is 8+1 but that 8 is in parallel). gigabyte cheapest 10 phases z390 smashes them.
5. i sincerely ask for ddr4 manual oc guide on gigabyte mobo.


----------



## br0da

Thx to @asdkj1740 @GBT-MatthewH and @AlphaC for all your informative stuff posted. 
Unfortunately I'm ways to busy to dive deep into Z390 VRMs so I'm just gonna try to fill things up in the list. So just complain right away if I got things wrong.


----------



## AlphaC

@ asdkj1740 , I would never test anything thermally on foam unless you're trying to thermally isolate it from the table. Foam is a thermal insulator (what you have there looks to be on par with air conditioning foam actually), you'd be even better off just putting a bolt + nut with a few mm length on the corners and just having it empty underneath the board ; it'd also represent a case scenario better.

Also if it's a low priced "UD" or Gaming X non-Aorus board I wouldn't expect that much from it. If it performs at least at a midrange level it is already better than expected. Even feature-wise they aren't really differentiated from other brands' boards other than the Dual BIOS ; the brown tinged PCB suggesting possibly low thickness isn't going to be compelling to many people as well.

For Aorus boards I would think the audio section (MASTER has the high precision clock source , that I know) with WIMA caps, thermal headers, thermal sensors, post code on Master/Ultra, as well as dual BIOS features attract more performance-oriented buyers while RGB + cleaner design (i.e. vs ASUS STRIX grafitti) attracts the aesthetic minded ones. I'm unsure on how much of a price difference there will be between the Ultra,Pro , and Elite. However, the main difference I see is the post code on the Ultra and the heatpipe retained on the Pro but not on the Elite.



Chopping off "Gaming" in favor of names such as Elite/Pro/Ultra/Master should also net some sales , unless buyers are outright searching for "gaming" in the motherboard name. I believe that it is similar to how ROG is abbreviated for Republic of Gamers. We see a similar evolution in MSI's lineup where "MEG" supposedly is abbreviated enthusiast gaming and MPG is performance gaming whatever those terms are supposed to mean.

If you trust in the engineers' ability to select & size inductors, the very fact that the new mid-end Aorus boards use R30 (300nH) chokes versus R40 (400nH) ones suggests there is a lower ripple output versus previous midrange Z370. Boards such as the MSI Z370 M5 were using R40 , MSI's Z370 Pro Carbon was using R42. The Z370 Taichi + K6 were using R22 Cooper Bussman 60A inductors ; the Z370 Gaming 7 from Gigabyte had 150nH inductors from Cooper Bussman's Coiltronics (http://www1.cooperbussmann.com/pdf/79793630-1b1e-49f8-a6d0-ea9b2be9f2e4.pdf).

I believe anyone that ever considered Gigabyte a choice for motherboards should be stoked as to the new state of the Aorus boards , it seems every Z390 Aorus board has capability to be a respectable VRM.

Also here's a Geekbench on the Aorus MASTER with i9-9900k : 6200+ single core *https://browser.geekbench.com/v4/cpu/compare/9980316?baseline=9931617

---------------------

*Asrock Z390 Phantom Gaming 9* preview: https://news.xfastest.com/asrock/54351/asrock-z390-phantom-gaming-9-z390-taichi/

**
*


----------



## asdkj1740

AlphaC said:


> @ asdkj1740 , I would never test anything thermally on foam unless you're trying to thermally isolate it from the table. Foam is a thermal insulator (what you have there looks to be on par with air conditioning foam actually), you'd be even better off just putting a bolt + nut with a few mm length on the corners and just having it empty underneath the board ; it'd also represent a case scenario better.
> 
> Also if it's a low priced "UD" or Gaming X non-Aorus board I wouldn't expect that much from it. If it performs at least at a midrange level it is already better than expected. Even feature-wise they aren't really differentiated from other brands' boards other than the Dual BIOS ; the brown tinged PCB suggesting possibly low thickness isn't going to be compelling to many people as well.
> 
> For Aorus boards I would think the audio section (MASTER has the high precision clock source , that I know) with WIMA caps, thermal headers, thermal sensors, post code on Master/Ultra, as well as dual BIOS features attract more performance-oriented buyers while RGB + cleaner design (i.e. vs ASUS STRIX grafitti) attracts the aesthetic minded ones. I'm unsure on how much of a price difference there will be between the Ultra,Pro , and Elite. However, the main difference I see is the post code on the Ultra and the heatpipe retained on the Pro but not on the Elite.
> 
> 
> 
> Chopping off "Gaming" in favor of names such as Elite/Pro/Ultra/Master should also net some sales , unless buyers are outright searching for "gaming" in the motherboard name. I believe that it is similar to how ROG is abbreviated for Republic of Gamers. We see a similar evolution in MSI's lineup where "MEG" supposedly is abbreviated enthusiast gaming and MPG is performance gaming whatever those terms are supposed to mean.
> 
> If you trust in the engineers' ability to select & size inductors, the very fact that the new mid-end Aorus boards use R30 (300nH) chokes versus R40 (400nH) ones suggests there is a lower ripple output versus previous midrange Z370. Boards such as the MSI Z370 M5 were using R40 , MSI's Z370 Pro Carbon was using R42. The Z370 Taichi + K6 were using R22 Cooper Bussman 60A inductors ; the Z370 Gaming 7 from Gigabyte had 150nH inductors from Cooper Bussman's Coiltronics (http://www1.cooperbussmann.com/pdf/79793630-1b1e-49f8-a6d0-ea9b2be9f2e4.pdf).
> 
> I believe anyone that ever considered Gigabyte a choice for motherboards should be stoked as to the new state of the Aorus boards , it seems every Z390 Aorus board has capability to be a respectable VRM.
> 
> Also here's a Geekbench on the Aorus MASTER with i9-9900k : 6200+ single core *https://browser.geekbench.com/v4/cpu/compare/9980316?baseline=9931617
> 
> ---------------------
> 
> *Asrock Z390 Phantom Gaming 9* preview: https://news.xfastest.com/asrock/54351/asrock-z390-phantom-gaming-9-z390-taichi/
> 
> **
> *


indeed the foam is stupid, i just run some quick test and "tried" to add some vrm temp to simulate in-case scenario lol.
10+2 to me is very impressive, with the 1.5mm thick pad, i think even gaming 5 z370 cant beat z390 ud hard.
for practical usage like gaming, i have faith in ud z390.
other brands' z390 seems to have the same phase count on vcore part, even assuming all of them are real doubling, gigabyte this time still win the phase count as always lol.

as you said the feature sets is not great in z390 gigabtye.
gigabyte z370 hd3p is insanely good with cheap pricing. but on z390, only gaming sli seems to try delivering what hd3p z370 has given. 
alc1220 is very important to gamers without serious audio setup/equipment. it should not be cut on ud series, and this is the most important feature that shines hd3p z370 (the fp 5k caps on hd3p are another good looking feature).

i dont know why gigabyte opted for usb tpye c gen 1 front internal connector on so many entry-midrage z390. gigabyte really likes gen 1 type c port.


----------



## Kana Chan

wingman99 said:


> Real phase is 5X2 so it is doubled.


Could they do something like that? The IR35219 can apparently do a real 10 phase?
https://www.powersystemsdesign.com/images/articles/1509634591_Figure 4.png

https://www.powersystemsdesign.com/...esents-a-significant-power-challenge/22/12200
https://www.tweaktown.com/reviews/8565/supermicro-h11ssl-nc-server-motherboard-review/index3.html


----------



## asdkj1740

few updates on z390 ud:

1. 
the extreme llc mode overshoots about 0.03v. i set 1.35 and on hwinfo it is 1.38v
therefore turbo llc mode is recommended
turbo 1.35-->1.34
extreme 1.35-->1.38
ultra extreme 1.35-->1.4 more

2.
without the foam, supprisingly the vrm temp are more or less the same.
~10 mins prime95 test, max 91c now compared to 93c in the old test(placed the mobo on a foam covering all the vrm section). 


the z390 ud vrm (with 8700K) can hold at least 15mins on such intensive workload before throttlings, which is a significant improvement over the last generation.
this means if you dont want amd ryzen, and you wont go for 8c8t or 8c16t, then z390 must be your first choice over z370.

be sure to watch the coming videos from hardwareunbox as they are going to test the 9900k on z370 to revisit the z370 vrm disaster lol.

z370 ultra gaming 2.0 has 8 vcore phases in parallel, total 16 mosfets.
z390 ud has 10 vcore phases doubled, total 20 mosfets.
z390 is very interesting, it may give us some idea about how to properly treat "parallel vs doubling".


----------



## tostitobandito

Asus/Newegg livestream starts at 11am Pacific for anyone interested in Asus Z390 details/pricing.


----------



## asdkj1740

br0da said:


> Thx to @asdkj1740 @GBT-MatthewH and @AlphaC for all your informative stuff posted.
> Unfortunately I'm ways to busy to dive deep into Z390 VRMs so I'm just gonna try to fill things up in the list. So just complain right away if I got things wrong.


take you time dude


----------



## AlphaC

https://www.anandtech.com/show/13407/intel-z390-motherboard-overview-every-motherboard-analyzed/2

Anandtech has an incomplete power delivery chart.

But what I found interesting is that it claims Asrock's Z390 Phantom Gaming 6 uses UPI9521 PWM and so does the ASRock Z390 Extreme4.
Incidentally it is the same PWM claimed on the MSI boards under the Godlike & Ace.

Somehow they omitted every single ASUS board.

We also learned from Gigabyte Matt that the unreleased Z390 Aorus Extreme uses 16x TDA21462 (60A powerstage) for VCore, which is the same as MSI Godlike listing on that page (TDA21462).

In my opinion, given the price of the Ace, it is a horrible buy at *$290* along with the Godlike at *$600*. It's still using ONsemi 4c024n + 4c029n as the other lower end MSI boards which isn't bad but not stellar.

The star here is the ASRock Z390 Phantom Gaming-ITX/ac again. It's the only board with Thunderbolt 3 out of the box and ISL99227B powerstages. At $190 it is almost a steal compared to the competitor boards in its price bracket.

-----


https://www.hw-journal.de/testberic...i-mpg-z390-gaming-pro-carbon?showall=&start=3
upi9521 used on Pro Carbon with 4C029 and 4C024 MOSFETs (Onsemi)

https://www.tweaktown.com/articles/8755/asrock-z390-taichi-intel-motherboard-preview/index3.html --- Steven's review of Z390 Taichi with TI NexFETs

Hardware info NL claims Onsemi NCP302045 powerstage from Z390-A also used on Z390-E (not surprised) https://nl.hardware.info/product/487307/asus-rog-strix-z390-e-gaming/specificaties

Hardware info NL also claims the Maximus XI Hero WIFI uses Vishay SiC639 Powerstages https://nl.hardware.info/product/487391/asus-rog-maximus-xi-hero-wi-fi/specificaties
Maximus XI Formula also https://nl.hardware.info/product/487389/asus-rog-maximus-xi-formula/specificaties

Hardware info NL also confirms (I guess) Asrock's Z390 Extreme4 suffered a PWM downgrade to uP9521 despite retaining the same Fairchild Dual-N Fets https://nl.hardware.info/product/490361/asrock-z390-extreme4/specificaties

Maximus XI Extreme using IR3555 Powerstages https://www.hkepc.com/17297/問鼎_INTEL_Z390_板皇__ASUS_ROG_Maximus_XI_Extreme主機板

Lab501 review of Pro Carbon https://lab501.ro/placi-de-baza/prezentare-msi-z390-mpg-gaming-pro-carbon/4
Lab501 review of Z390 Aorus Master https://lab501.ro/placi-de-baza/prezentare-z390-aorus-master-z390-aorus-pro/4
Lab501 review of Z390 Aorus Pro https://lab501.ro/placi-de-baza/prezentare-z390-aorus-master-z390-aorus-pro/7

mobile01 overview (includes Maximus XI Extreme, Z390 Aorus Master , Z390 MEG ACE) https://www.mobile01.com/newsdetail...ard-rog-maximus-aorus-master-meg-corei9-9900k


MSI Z390 Pro Carbon layout http://www.expreview.com/64442-all.html

MSI Z390 Gaming Plus (tested on i5-8600k though) , NTMFS4C029N + NTMFS4C024N, https://www.overclockers.ua/motherboard/msi-mpg-z390-gaming-plus/all/


----------



## asdkj1740

sadly no official public datasheet for upi up9521.

dont know whether this is correct and accurate:
7 pwm max.
https://www.wpgholdings.com/procurement/procurement_detail/zhtw/16441


----------



## asdkj1740

why it is said 12+2 while mentioning 1+1 for vccsa and vccio
https://www.tweaktown.com/articles/8755/asrock-z390-taichi-intel-motherboard-preview/index3.html


----------



## winter2

some boards already available in stock on alza if some is interested to check prices (https://www.alza.co.uk/intel-motherboards-with-z390-chipset/18867034.htm)
PSA dont even try to check price for 9900k there


----------



## asdkj1740

https://youtu.be/DMfZ4ILJ7K8?t=91
1:30
taichi ultimate vrm test on a particular cpu likely to be 9900K


----------



## zGunBLADEz

Ordered the z390i from asus lets see


This guy is getting over 80c+ reading from the front of the mobo with a IR on the vrms





this dont look good lol
so it should be like 10c+ higher to his readings if reading correctly from the back and inside of the vrm probably is at 100c+

dont say what cpu/volts hes using


----------



## Knjaz136

zGunBLADEz said:


> <...>
> dont say what cpu/volts hes using


He mentioned it's 79 degrees at stock. 1:43


----------



## AlphaC

No VRM cooling was used. What did you expect with a closed loop liquid cooler? 60°C??


----------



## zGunBLADEz

Knjaz136 said:


> He mentioned it's 79 degrees at stock. 1:43


yeah but he had two charts stock vs overclocked need more info exactly what it is...

he is measuring temps wrong to begin with 80c from the front with an ir that means from the back can be 10c+ higher. and inside the vrm can be over 100c as it is...

If u have what multi and voltage you can round up ..

Those numbers look bad to me with that kind of vrm design and phases 80c from the front is quite hot


----------



## Pyromonkey83

So the Maximus X Hero sported 8x Infineon Optimos stages, and the XI Hero appears to have 8x Vishay SiC639. How much of a difference, if any, is there between the two?


----------



## jasonwaterfalls

anyone have any insight yet on the matx boards? trying to decide between the msi mpg z390m, the asus xi gene, and the asus tuf z390m. do we know how the vrms are looking on these boards? i'm considering the gene but the single pcie x16 is concerning. the tuf has 2, but i'm worried about its quality being a lower tier board.


----------



## AlphaC

Pyromonkey83 said:


> So the Maximus X Hero sported 8x Infineon Optimos stages, and the XI Hero appears to have 8x Vishay SiC639. How much of a difference, if any, is there between the two?


The Optimos is a 50A Dual-N FET / powerblock while the SiC639 is a 50A Powerstage with the driver integrated into it.


https://www.vishay.com/docs/76585/sic639.pdf

I would think that the powerstages do a better job with monitoring due to integrated driver but have a narrower section of efficient power band. The peak efficiency graph for the SiC639 is quite narrow: at around 2 to 25A it retains 90% efficiency.

The BSG0812NDI datasheet isn't available.


As far as key (inferred) metrics:
rise time for a 50A BSG0813NDI (50A Optimos) : 4.7ns , for a BSG0810NDI (50A Optimos) it's also 4.7ns @ V_GS=4.5V
fall time for a 50A BSG0813NDI (50A Optimos): 1.4ns , for a BSG0810NDI (50A Optimos) it's also 1.4ns @ V_GS=4.5V 
low side RDS(on) for a 50A BSG0813NDI (50A Optimos) : 1.2mΩ , for BSG0810NDI (50A Optimos) it's 0.9mΩ for V_GS=10V which is lower/better

https://www.infineon.com/dgdl/Infin...N.pdf?fileId=5546d46250cc1fdf0150ec95de1142a9

https://www.infineon.com/dgdl/Infin...N.pdf?fileId=5546d4624bcaebcf014c2d01f8520266

https://www.infineon.com/cms/en/about-infineon/press/market-news/2015/INFPMM201503-042.html , https://www.infineon.com/dgdl/Infin...N.pdf?fileId=5546d4624bcaebcf014c09f5f10e23f9
It seems to produce around 94% efficiency for a 8 phase sans driver/inductor/capacitor losses (via calculation and suggested spec of 95% peak) at around 190W. Not counting the IR3555 / ISL99227B there really isn't anything I can think of that's been used in the past that peaks over 92 or 93% efficiency.








---------------


Z390 Godlike in depth pictures , notice R22 chokes: https://www.hkepc.com/17354/神一般的存在__MSI_MEG_Z390_GODLIKE_主機板


----------



## Solarity

AlphaC said:


> The Optimos is a 50A Dual-N FET / powerblock while the SiC639 is a 50A Powerstage with the driver integrated into it.
> 
> 
> https://www.vishay.com/docs/76585/sic639.pdf
> 
> I would think that the powerstages do a better job with monitoring due to integrated driver but have a narrower section of efficient power band. The peak efficiency graph for the SiC639 is quite narrow: at around 2 to 25A it retains 90% efficiency.
> 
> The BSG0812NDI datasheet isn't available.
> 
> 
> As far as key (inferred) metrics:
> rise time for a 50A BSG0813NDI (50A Optimos) : 4.7ns , for a BSG0810NDI (50A Optimos) it's also 4.7ns @ V_GS=4.5V
> fall time for a 50A BSG0813NDI (50A Optimos): 1.4ns , for a BSG0810NDI (50A Optimos) it's also 1.4ns @ V_GS=4.5V
> low side RDS(on) for a 50A BSG0813NDI (50A Optimos) : 1.2mΩ , for BSG0810NDI (50A Optimos) it's 0.9mΩ for V_GS=10V which is lower/better
> 
> https://www.infineon.com/dgdl/Infin...N.pdf?fileId=5546d46250cc1fdf0150ec95de1142a9
> 
> https://www.infineon.com/dgdl/Infin...N.pdf?fileId=5546d4624bcaebcf014c2d01f8520266
> 
> https://www.infineon.com/cms/en/about-infineon/press/market-news/2015/INFPMM201503-042.html , https://www.infineon.com/dgdl/Infin...N.pdf?fileId=5546d4624bcaebcf014c09f5f10e23f9
> It seems to produce around 94% efficiency for a 8 phase sans driver/inductor/capacitor losses (via calculation and suggested spec of 95% peak) at around 190W. Not counting the IR3555 / ISL99227B there really isn't anything I can think of that's been used in the past that peaks over 92 or 93% efficiency.
> 
> View attachment 222880
> 
> ---------------
> 
> 
> Z390 Godlike in depth pictures , notice R22 chokes: https://www.hkepc.com/17354/神一般的存在__MSI_MEG_Z390_GODLIKE_主機板


 @AlphaC How do you think the Z370 Gaming 7 w/ it's 8 phases vs the newer Z390 boards that have 12 phases? 

While there are only 8 phases on the Z370, they are rated at 60A, vs the newer Gigabyte boards with the 12x50A mosfets. Think the Gaming 7 will be able to take the on the 9900K?


----------



## Solarity

Delete - DB Error Message?


----------



## Solarity

Delete


----------



## AlphaC

I think the Z370 Gaming 7 should be fine if you waterblock it (EK / Bitspower) as all the newer designs with 8 or 10 phases are using narrower efficiency band (cheaper) parts from Vishay or ONsemi. The old heatsinks really didn't have much exposed surface area so unless you are going to cut fins into it , that will likely hold you back after passing about 160-180W due to the thermal resistance of the heatsink to the air. In addition the ISL6617A used on the Z370 Gaming 7 has load balancing which is superior to outright doubling without that feature (although the difference shouldn't be enormous unless the trace length is largely different between the phases controlled by the doubler).

Monoblocks: https://www.ekwb.com/shop/ek-fb-ga-z270-z370-rgb-monoblock-nickel , https://shop.bitspower.com/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=5300

The one main overclock feature I saw that the Z370 Gaming 7 lacks that its successor has is the physical BIOS switch I believe.


This DIY ONLINE pc chinese review has a i7-8700k on the Z390 Master and Z370 Gaming 7 and it is within margin of error: http://diy.pconline.com.cn/1180/11802710_all.html



----
I don't want to make 100s of edits on the chart but I found out the Aorus Pro and Elite have another difference between them: the Pro appears to use a FP Cap + heatpipe (as noted earlier) while the Elite is using the Apaq capacitors
PRO https://quasarzone.co.kr/bbs/board.php?bo_table=qc_qsz&wr_id=184714

ELITE https://quasarzone.co.kr/bbs/board.php?bo_table=qc_qsz&wr_id=184714



----
Asrock Phantom ITX Preview is up confirming 5x ISL99227B again: https://www.tweaktown.com/articles/...gaming-itx-ac-motherboard-preview/index3.html



----

For ASUS-only people that don't give other brands a chance :

I found this interesting review of the new Z390 Formula but I still can't find if it has a heatpipe (probably not due to the built in waterblock):
https://www.pcgamesn.com/asus-rog-maximus-xi-formula-z390-review-benchmarks

The temperature reading isn't fully explained (i.e. is it from the sensor or a thermocouple and from where is it taken?).

Maximus XI Formula blog review thing: https://blog.naver.com/digiji1/221373762693

Sic639 visually confirmed on the Hero: https://blog.naver.com/preflow/221373773646

Also it may be that the Gene is better than the Hero this time around. I'm counting more chokes so unless the components are weaker per phase it could be a stronger board.

Tidbit on AI Overclocking software reveals quite a lot:


https://edgeup.asus.com/2018/z390-motherboard-guide-coffee-lake-8-core/ said:


> AI Overclocking is available on the Prime Z390-A, WS Z390-PRO, and all ROG models except for the Strix Z390-H Gaming. It’s not the only automated solution, either. Our newest 5-Way Optimization software offers an alternate approach to one-click tuning that simulates a human overclocker by increasing clock speeds, tweaking voltages, and testing stability before pursuing higher frequencies. This technique gets the CPU extremely close to the maximum speed that can be attained with manual tuning, and connected fans can also be calibrated as part of the process. TUF Gaming and lower-end ROG Strix and Prime models that lack 5-Way still have OC Tuner, which uses predefined profiles to hit higher speeds at the touch of a button.


----------



## asdkj1740

https://lab501.ro/placi-de-baza/prezentare-msi-z390-mpg-gaming-pro-carbon/4
the mpg gaming pro carbon has 4 little ic on the vrm back of the pcb, plus 2 on the front.
and judging by the pinout marks' pointing direction, it should be the same as the old gerneration using parallel vcore instead of real doubling.


----------



## borandi

AlphaC said:


> https://www.anandtech.com/show/13407/intel-z390-motherboard-overview-every-motherboard-analyzed/2
> 
> Anandtech has an incomplete power delivery chart.
> 
> But what I found interesting is that it claims Asrock's Z390 Phantom Gaming 6 uses UPI9521 PWM and so does the ASRock Z390 Extreme4.
> Incidentally it is the same PWM claimed on the MSI boards under the Godlike & Ace.
> 
> Somehow they omitted every single ASUS board.


We posted as much information as we could get from every vendor. Not every vendor wanted to share the correct information, and one vendor shared zero information at all.
The reason it's incomplete isn't our fault. It's the first time we've requested this detail before a product launch and I suspect a number of PR people we speak to didn't know who to ask to get the information, so it came in drips and isn't fully complete.

Ian Cutress, AnandTech Senior Editor


----------



## Glerox

AlphaC said:


> For ASUS-only people that don't give other brands a chance :
> 
> I found this interesting review of the new Z390 Formula but I still can't find if it has a heatpipe (probably not due to the built in waterblock):
> https://www.pcgamesn.com/asus-rog-maximus-xi-formula-z390-review-benchmarks
> 
> The temperature reading isn't fully explained (i.e. is it from the sensor or a thermocouple and from where is it taken?).
> 
> 
> Maximus XI Formula blog review thing: https://blog.naver.com/digiji1/221373762693
> 
> 
> 
> Also it may be that the Gene is better than the Hero this time around. I'm counting more chokes so unless the components are weaker per phase it could be a stronger board.


Thanks! I'm indeed looking for a ROG board hehe.

What would the Formula bring over the Hero apart from the esthetics? I think it's the same power delivery PCB.
Is it really useful to watercool VRMs instead of having a good heatsink? I'm doing a custom loop for the 3rd time and never included my MB's VRMs before.


----------



## asdkj1740

No one is blaming about that 
I am looking forward to see that chart got fully filled up accurately.
You guys are one of the biggest techsite that has much more power to do so compared to us here. We simply expect you guys could do more if you guys are willing to do so.

I know dealing with vendors or brands is scuk. Lol.


----------



## AlphaC

Glerox said:


> Thanks! I'm indeed looking for a ROG board hehe.
> 
> What would the Formula bring over the Hero apart from the esthetics? I think it's the same power delivery PCB.
> Is it really useful to watercool VRMs instead of having a good heatsink? I'm doing a custom loop for the 3rd time and never included my MB's VRMs before.



The Formula has a 5 GBps Aquantia LAN and more USB 3.1 gen 1 ports , plus drops the PS/2 port. Those are the main differences I spotted besides the waterblock & plastic covers.


Often times when people watercool their CPUs the airflow over the VRM heatsink is shoddy which is why if you plan to use a custom loop and have money for it, the Formula is a good option if you had decided to monoblock a ROG Hero.


In the past the Formula has included PWM doublers when the Hero did not. However since they switched to Vishay powerstages instead of the Dual-N Powerblocks this is less likely since each power stage has a driver in it.


----------



## gopalbose0

*Will the z370 Godlike from MSI be able to keep up with MCE on the 9900k*

I got a great deal on this board a while back due to the box being scuffed with warranty and all that, will this be able to keep the 9900k all core 5 Ghz. And if so can it be pushed further or the VRMs wouldn't be able to handle it ? 

Its under an 240mm AIO rad with ram OCed from 3333 Mhz to 3900 Mhz all slots occupied 32 Gb. 

Will I need to reduce timings on memory or reduce sticks ? I currently have it with the 8700k 4.7 Ghz all cores with reduced voltage . 

Max temps are 70-75 C under 20 C controlled ambient.

Greatly appreciate the help of this awesome community!


----------



## GBT-MatthewH

borandi said:


> We posted as much information as we could get from every vendor. Not every vendor wanted to share the correct information, and one vendor shared zero information at all.
> The reason it's incomplete isn't our fault. It's the first time we've requested this detail before a product launch and I suspect a number of PR people we speak to didn't know who to ask to get the information, so it came in drips and isn't fully complete.
> 
> Ian Cutress, AnandTech Senior Editor


On the other hand some PR people were on the ball ;-)


----------



## KedarWolf

Can some just give me the basics on a Maximus X Formula VRM setup?

Some posted a long convoluted explanation of it a while back but I can't decipher what they are saying.

Can someone just say the basic setup and would a 9900k do well with it?


----------



## tostitobandito

I believe the Hero/Code/Formula all have the same VRM config.


https://blog.naver.com/digiji1/221373762693


This link was pasted earlier in this thread and has some more details if you translate it. Their conclusion seemed to be that the VRM's were an upgrade from the Z370 boards and should do well with the 9900K. The whole Z390 MAXIMUS series was pretty much designed to be able to handle that CPU and overclock it. Probably safe to say the same about the top tier Z390 boards from Asrock, Gigabyte, EVGA, etc... as well.


----------



## HBizzle

Hello,

Anyone have suggestions for ram to purchase, speed/brand/latency, to pair up with a 9900k and a MSI MEG Z390 ACE? ACE arrives later this week, and collecting parts in anticipation of the chip arriving 10 days from now. Able to spend, so wondering if it is worth it getting faster Ram? Intend to overclock with a 240mm AIO water setup.


----------



## jasonwaterfalls

Anyone have any insight on the VRM situation between the MSI MPG Z390M Gaming Edge and the ASUS TUF Z390M? Trying to decide between these two MATX boards.


----------



## asdkj1740

Msi low end mobos seem to be 5+1
There are five little ic for the vcore. Without seeing the markings on these ic we are hard to tell they are doublers or drivers.


----------



## GBT-MatthewH

jasonwaterfalls said:


> Anyone have any insight on the VRM situation between the MSI MPG Z390M Gaming Edge and the ASUS TUF Z390M? Trying to decide between these two MATX boards.


Added M Gaming to VRM list.

10+2
Vcore: ISL69138 5(5)+2
Doubler: 5 * ISL6617A

https://www.gigabyte.com/Motherboard/Z390-M-GAMING-rev-10#kf


----------



## asdkj1740

Matthewh. What are the exact models of the igpu mosfets on z390 ud?


----------



## SpirosKGR

https://www.chiphell.com/thread-1916382-1-1.html will the asrock z370 Taichi able to play well with an 9900k at 5-5.1 like the Z390 variant?


----------



## AlphaC

The MSI Ace is a horrible value for money if you don't care for a Debug Code LED instead of 4 category (CPU/VGA/RAM/HDD) LEDs specifying the error , don't particularly need USB 3.1 front panel header, or plan on using over 3600 RAM divider , confirmed:
View attachment 222958

(translates to "back of board temp" , LinX is an AVX load)
View attachment 222960

https://ithardware.pl/testyirecenzje/msi_meg_z390_ace_test_plyty_glownej-7424-15.html


Power draw is listed around 200-215W in that test ; I'm not quite sure if it is whole system draw (idle is roughly 55-65W per the other graphs).

https://ithardware.pl/testyirecenzje/gigabyte_z390_aorus_pro_test_plyty_glownej-7423-17.html



*As far as value for money goes:*
At $290 the Ace is priced against the Taichi Ultimate (which is above the Taichi obviously) , Maximus Hero , and Aorus Master (which is above the Aorus Ultra). The Ace also notably only has 2 USB 3.1 gen 2 at the back panel (one type A and one type C). Aorus Pro WIFI could be one of the best midrange boards because it isn't cut down too far from the Ultra (which has the advantage of a better heatsink , ESS9118 at the audio section, USB 3.1 gen 2 front panel connector, 3rd M.2, + debug LED). The "Elite" board below the "Pro" and Pro WIFI drops the heatpipe , loses USB 3.1 gen 2 type C connector (only type-A), and goes with Apaq Taiwanese capacitors instead of the black Japanese FP caps. The Elite also seems to drop the temperature sensor and fan header count , so the $20 or so to step up from the Elite to the Pro WIFI is well worth it (per Newegg it's $10 for Elite to Pro so if you don't need WIFI that's an even better option). This is also the case when I checked prices in Europe.

If you compare the supposed midrange STRIX Z390-H for example, the IO at the back panel is pretty mediocre in comparison to the MSI/Gigabyte offerings and even their own Prime Z390-A. The Z390-H also has the unfortunate disadvantage of no auto overclocking capability, something that is present on the Z390-A and all other STRIX Boards in the Z390 lineup. It's a similar situation with the Asrock Phantom Gaming 6 , they haven't ditched D-Sub I hated in the Z370 version although it does have HDMI+DP instead of the DVI+HDMI combo. In addition, the Phantom Gaming 6 is technically a downgrade in power delivery from Z370 K6. The Z390 Pro Carbon also seems to have the anemic IO issue , the MPG Edge is a further downgrade overall despite a $190 price tag (~$10 less than the Pro Carbon on Newegg).


At $170-180 the Z390 Extreme4 isn't that compelling especially with the replacement of the PWM with the up9521, it isn't like the $120-150 the Z370 version ran when every other vendor was using 4 phase midrange VRMs with simply doubled up mosfets on boards up to ~$200 and absolute garbage at the $100-140 MSRP pricepoints. In fact the Z370 Extreme4 is $165 now ($10 MIR available to reduce it further) and the Z370 Fatal1ty ITX board is around $155-165 as well. The Z390 version of the Extreme4 is definitely not a board to buy at launch and I'd struggle with reasons to use it over a Z370 Extreme4 (required BIOS flashing for i7-9700K maybe).


At the lower price brackets: Similarly the Z390 Gaming Plus from MSI isn't that compelling in my opinion. It's missing the top VRM heatsink on at least one of the CPU Core phases (likely two) and the audio isn't shielded whatsoever. It still manages to MSRP at $150 / ~ €140 . The Z390 MAG Tomahawk should fare better at $160 / € 150 as it's a relatively minor price bump , one thing I definitely noticed was the presence of four USB 3.1 gen 2 at the back panel.
The ASUS TUF boards received an audio upgrade to ALC1220 , ALC892 is present on the MSI Z390 Tomahawk + Mortar (mATX), but the Gigabyte UD board still is stuck with ALC887 (try to go with Aorus boards if you go with Gigabyte, really) the Gaming X has ALC892 and until you get to the SLI PLUS you won't get ALC1220 on Gigabyte's lineup (which is understandable).



If you look at the older Z370s with power delivery capable for the new 9th gen CPUs:
Asus Maximus X Code runs $260 on Amazon & Microcenter's web shop , which is lower than the $270ish the Hero is costing

Gigabyte Z370 Gaming 7 runs $220 on Newegg / Amazon / Microcenter web shop

Asrock Z370 Taichi runs $220 ($210 after MIR) on Newegg / Amazon
Asrock Z370 Fatal1ty ITX runs around $150-160 on Newegg / Microcenter web shop

EVGA Z370 FTW is a mere $120 on Amazon , is about on par with the $160-170 Z390 cheaper boards --- this is an option for i7-9700K 8 core provided the power draw is lower



In short, I'd expect massive downward price swings on many boards after a few months (one fiscal quarter). If you decide to buy anything early make sure to get price protection from your credit card or something similar in nature. The price volatility should turn out to be quite high.




SpirosKGR said:


> https://www.chiphell.com/thread-1916382-1-1.html will the asrock z370 Taichi able to play well with an 9900k at 5-5.1 like the Z390 variant?


I'd expect them to be quite similar in performance. When an AVX load is introduced there might be differences due to the thermal characteristics at higher amperages but at the end of the day:
the Z370 Taichi uses 10 drivers with 10x Sinopower SM7341EHKP or Fairchild FDPC5030SG powerblocks (~90-92% efficient each)

the Z390 Taichi uses 5 doublers with 10x TI NExFET 87350 powerblocks (90% efficient up to ~25A each)


----------



## cletus-cassidy

AlphaC said:


> The MSI Ace is a horrible value for money if you don't care for a Debug Code LED instead of 4 category (CPU/VGA/RAM/HDD) LEDs specifying the error , don't particularly need USB 3.1 front panel header, or plan on using over 3600 RAM divider , confirmed:
> View attachment 222958
> 
> (translates to "back of board temp" , LinX is an AVX load)
> View attachment 222960
> 
> https://ithardware.pl/testyirecenzje/msi_meg_z390_ace_test_plyty_glownej-7424-15.html
> 
> 
> Power draw is listed around 200-215W in that test ; I'm not quite sure if it is whole system draw (idle is roughly 55-65W per the other graphs).
> 
> https://ithardware.pl/testyirecenzje/gigabyte_z390_aorus_pro_test_plyty_glownej-7423-17.html
> 
> 
> 
> *As far as value for money goes:*
> At $290 the Ace is priced against the Taichi Ultimate (which is above the Taichi obviously) , Maximus Hero , and Aorus Master (which is above the Aorus Ultra). The Ace also notably only has 2 USB 3.1 gen 2 at the back panel (one type A and one type C). Aorus Pro WIFI could be one of the best midrange boards because it isn't cut down too far from the Ultra (which has the advantage of a better heatsink , ESS9118 at the audio section, USB 3.1 gen 2 front panel connector, 3rd M.2, + debug LED). The "Elite" board below the "Pro" and Pro WIFI drops the heatpipe , loses USB 3.1 gen 2 type C connector (only type-A), and goes with Apaq Taiwanese capacitors instead of the black Japanese FP caps. The Elite also seems to drop the temperature sensor and fan header count , so the $20 or so to step up from the Elite to the Pro WIFI is well worth it (per Newegg it's $10 for Elite to Pro so if you don't need WIFI that's an even better option). This is also the case when I checked prices in Europe.
> 
> If you compare the supposed midrange STRIX Z390-H for example, the IO at the back panel is pretty mediocre in comparison to the MSI/Gigabyte offerings and even their own Prime Z390-A. The Z390-H also has the unfortunate disadvantage of no auto overclocking capability, something that is present on the Z390-A and all other STRIX Boards in the Z390 lineup. It's a similar situation with the Asrock Phantom Gaming 6 , they haven't ditched D-Sub I hated in the Z370 version although it does have HDMI+DP instead of the DVI+HDMI combo. In addition, the Phantom Gaming 6 is technically a downgrade in power delivery from Z370 K6. The Z390 Pro Carbon also seems to have the anemic IO issue , the MPG Edge is a further downgrade overall despite a $190 price tag (~$10 less than the Pro Carbon on Newegg).
> 
> 
> At $170-180 the Z390 Extreme4 isn't that compelling especially with the replacement of the PWM with the up9521, it isn't like the $120-150 the Z370 version ran when every other vendor was using 4 phase midrange VRMs with simply doubled up mosfets on boards up to ~$200 and absolute garbage at the $100-140 MSRP pricepoints. In fact the Z370 Extreme4 is $165 now ($10 MIR available to reduce it further) and the Z370 Fatal1ty ITX board is around $155-165 as well. The Z390 version of the Extreme4 is definitely not a board to buy at launch and I'd struggle with reasons to use it over a Z370 Extreme4 (required BIOS flashing for i7-9700K maybe).
> 
> 
> At the lower price brackets: Similarly the Z390 Gaming Plus from MSI isn't that compelling in my opinion. It's missing the top VRM heatsink on at least one of the CPU Core phases (likely two) and the audio isn't shielded whatsoever. It still manages to MSRP at $150 / ~ €140 . The Z390 MAG Tomahawk should fare better at $160 / € 150 as it's a relatively minor price bump , one thing I definitely noticed was the presence of four USB 3.1 gen 2 at the back panel.
> The ASUS TUF boards received an audio upgrade to ALC1220 , ALC892 is present on the MSI Z390 Tomahawk + Mortar (mATX), but the Gigabyte UD board still is stuck with ALC887 (try to go with Aorus boards if you go with Gigabyte, really) the Gaming X has ALC892 and until you get to the SLI PLUS you won't get ALC1220 on Gigabyte's lineup (which is understandable).
> 
> 
> 
> If you look at the older Z370s with power delivery capable for the new 9th gen CPUs:
> Asus Maximus X Code runs $260 on Amazon & Microcenter's web shop , which is lower than the $270ish the Hero is costing
> 
> Gigabyte Z370 Gaming 7 runs $220 on Newegg / Amazon / Microcenter web shop
> 
> Asrock Z370 Taichi runs $220 ($210 after MIR) on Newegg / Amazon
> Asrock Z370 Fatal1ty ITX runs around $150-160 on Newegg / Microcenter web shop
> 
> EVGA Z370 FTW is a mere $120 on Amazon , is about on par with the $160-170 Z390 cheaper boards --- this is an option for i7-9700K 8 core provided the power draw is lower
> 
> 
> 
> In short, I'd expect massive downward price swings on many boards after a few months (one fiscal quarter). If you decide to buy anything early make sure to get price protection from your credit card or something similar in nature. The price volatility should turn out to be quite high.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'd expect them to be quite similar in performance. When an AVX load is introduced there might be differences due to the thermal characteristics at higher amperages but at the end of the day:
> the Z370 Taichi uses 10 drivers with 10x Sinopower SM7341EHKP or Fairchild FDPC5030SG powerblocks (~90-92% efficient each)
> 
> the Z390 Taichi uses 5 doublers with 10x TI NExFET 87350 powerblocks (90% efficient up to ~25A each)


Helpful post as always. Any thoughts on the VRM throttling Tom's noted here: https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/intel-z390-motherboard-preview,5838-2.html

Trying to decide if I should should upgrade my z370 Taichi to a Maximus Formula, as I have a custom loop, and want to get at least a 5.1+ ghz OC.


----------



## Pyromonkey83

AlphaC said:


> If you look at the older Z370s with power delivery capable for the new 9th gen CPUs:
> Asus Maximus X Code runs $260 on Amazon & Microcenter's web shop , which is lower than the $270ish the Hero is costing


How well do you expect the Maximus X Hero/Code to fair on the 9900k in overclocking? I purchased it about a month ago for $200 new on Amazon during a sale, and was hoping the higher end VRM would support the 9900k, but the Toms Hardware report that VRM thermals and throttling are concerning with Z370 boards. Do you think I'll be limited on everyday overclock levels around 5-5.3Ghz? I'm using an AIO 280mm cooler as well, so the only airflow is the 120mm Maglev exhaust fan above in my H500i case. I'm starting to think I'll have to pony up another $100 for a Z390 Taichi or Maximus XI Hero instead (and I only have ~6 days left in my return window to come up with a decision).


----------



## bastian

As a current MSI Z370 Gaming Pro Carbon owner, does it make sense to upgrade to Z390? I will be getting the 9900K. I will of course be overclocking, on air, Noctua nh-d15s.


----------



## doom26464

I will be closely watching this thread in the comming weeks as I try to find a board for my 9900k.

Alot of the things in here are way over my head so hopefully some one does a basic buyers guide at given price points when the dust settles. 


Overclocking and on board audio are most important to me.


----------



## jasonwaterfalls

Can anyone tell what the VRMs are like on the Gene?


https://www.overclock3d.net/reviews/cpu_mainboard/asus_rog_z390_maximus_xi_gene_preview/1


----------



## jugs

jasonwaterfalls said:


> Can anyone tell what the VRMs are like on the Gene?
> 
> 
> https://www.overclock3d.net/reviews/cpu_mainboard/asus_rog_z390_maximus_xi_gene_preview/1


+1

Very interested in this board


----------



## joeh4384

jugs said:


> +1
> 
> Very interested in this board


Me too. I am currently running ITX but it is just a tad small for all these monster GPUs that are getting released. I wish mATX would make a comeback because it would be ideal since there is less need for cases with a lot of HD Mounts and add-on cards etc. There are absolutely no high end AMD mATX boards and a handle full of intel ones for Z370 and it looks like even less for Z390.


----------



## GBT-MatthewH

asdkj1740 said:


> Matthewh. What are the exact models of the igpu mosfets on z390 ud?


Vishay PPak 50A - 1H1L


----------



## sdch

@AlphaC can you do your thing? Let me know if you need more photos.

Strix Z390-I:


----------



## Hackslash

Pyromonkey83 said:


> How well do you expect the Maximus X Hero/Code to fair on the 9900k in overclocking? I purchased it about a month ago for $200 new on Amazon during a sale, and was hoping the higher end VRM would support the 9900k, but the Toms Hardware report that VRM thermals and throttling are concerning with Z370 boards. Do you think I'll be limited on everyday overclock levels around 5-5.3Ghz? I'm using an AIO 280mm cooler as well, so the only airflow is the 120mm Maglev exhaust fan above in my H500i case. I'm starting to think I'll have to pony up another $100 for a Z390 Taichi or Maximus XI Hero instead (and I only have ~6 days left in my return window to come up with a decision).


same (except the return possibility)... would love to know if my MXH is good enough for 5Ghz 9900k (with AVX)


----------



## AlphaC

cletus-cassidy said:


> Helpful post as always. Any thoughts on the VRM throttling Tom's noted here: https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/intel-z390-motherboard-preview,5838-2.html
> 
> Trying to decide if I should should upgrade my z370 Taichi to a Maximus Formula, as I have a custom loop, and want to get at least a 5.1+ ghz OC.



Tom's hardware USA is terrible at testing things as OCN users have noted in the past and they don't provide any evidence of where their numbers came from or how they derived their load, I've seen inconsistencies between their reviews and every hwbot overclocking team's site (i.e. lab501 , overclockers.ru, overclockers.ua, etc.). You should look toward Tom's hardware Europe (FR / DE) for stuff from Igor Wallossek as he usually uses FLIR thermal image pictures and shows the PCB shots as well as temperature / noise graphs with thermal imagery video.
read: https://www.tweaktown.com/news/62951/internal-struggles-toms-hardware-go-public/index.html

_The takeaways from the Toms hardware "non-article" (using Prime95 small FFT) with a i9-9900K are : all boards reached relatively the same frequency ("129%" - "131%") Z370 Gaming 7 heatsink isn't scaling great with airflow (not surprised), Z370 Taichi heatsink isn't great in general because 158CFM doesn't seem to affect it, Z390 Taichi has voltage fluctuation suggesting immature BIOS, Z390 Pro Carbon tripped Overcurrent protection, Z370 Pro Carbon unusable._

It could just be early pre-embargo BIOS might not have proper power limits. I9-9900k testing is still under embargo which is why I'm hesitant to say anything definitive as Z370 Taichi is a solid board. Basing it mainly off power draw, feature-set, and what was obviously removed for cost savings that is my impression. YMMV depending on BIOS implementation (version and bugs) , chip quality, and motherboard anomalies.


You should also note which version of the Z370 Taichi you have, apparently there's two versions: a Fairchild FDPC5030SG and Sinopower SM7341EHKP version. You can tell by the memory section's powerblock mosfets.



Pyromonkey83 said:


> How well do you expect the Maximus X Hero/Code to fair on the 9900k in overclocking? I purchased it about a month ago for $200 new on Amazon during a sale, and was hoping the higher end VRM would support the 9900k, but the Toms Hardware report that VRM thermals and throttling are concerning with Z370 boards. Do you think I'll be limited on everyday overclock levels around 5-5.3Ghz? I'm using an AIO 280mm cooler as well, so the only airflow is the 120mm Maglev exhaust fan above in my H500i case. I'm starting to think I'll have to pony up another $100 for a Z390 Taichi or Maximus XI Hero instead (and I only have ~6 days left in my return window to come up with a decision).


see above reason why I dont trust Tom's hardware USA. If you aren't using AVX instructions it should do fine as it uses 8x 60A powerblocks. At worst you can sell the Z370 off and get a Z390 but I highly doubt that it will be a large issue.





jasonwaterfalls said:


> Can anyone tell what the VRMs are like on the Gene?
> 
> https://www.overclock3d.net/reviews/cpu_mainboard/asus_rog_z390_maximus_xi_gene_preview/1


May be 10+2 phase since 12 chokes are used as opposed to an odd number such as 11 or 13. This assumes that IO + System Agent (SA) are not routed at that area. Mosfet quality is unknown , 10K FP caps from Japan are used. Impossible to tell anything definitive without heatsink removal or the back of the board.





Hackslash said:


> same (except the return possibility)... would love to know if my MXH is good enough for 5Ghz 9900k (with AVX)


i9-9900k performance (power scaling with voltage, AVX power usage) is under embargo so anything to do_ with AVX_ or AVX2 enabled is truly unknown or a guess based off the 14nm i7-8086K at this point.


----


sdch , it looks like the Z390-I STRIX is using the same Onsemi NCP302045 powerstage (rated 45A) as the other STRIX boards. I truly doubt it can effortlessly handle over 160W or so , it's half the powerstages as the STRIX Z390-E and Z390-A. Peak efficiency for the powerstage is roughly 91% and that's without a ~1.1X scaling factor for 1.3 or 1.4V output voltage. 
For example at 150W output and 1.3V you would have roughly 4.5W of power to be dissipated for each of the 4 powerstages (see figure 7 and figure 12). Even using the highly optimistic 12.4°C/W thermal resistance figure you'd be over 100°C quite easily ; using a realistic 20-30°C/W from an average VRM heatsink and you'd likely be well over the recommended 125°C. http://www.onsemi.com/pub/Collateral/NCP302045-D.PDF


Unless you _have_ to buy an ASUS board I'd probably look into the Asrock Z370 Fatal1ty ITX or Asrock Z390 Phantom ITX as they are proven to be able to push older i7 hexcores with airflow due to using 5x thermally enhanced 60A ISL99227B powerstages that are more efficient , are normalized against a much higher 1.8V, and have lower thermal resistance due to the exposed junction (get hot less easily when heatsinked). It also comes with Thunderbolt 3 built in.


-----------


There's been ROG Maximus XI Hero testing vs the older Maximus X Hero :
https://www.allround-pc.com/artikel/mainboards/2018/test-asus-rog-maximus-xi-hero


The newer board actually fared worse at times with the i7-8700K either due to vulnerability patches or due to early firmware.


----------



## Pyromonkey83

Thanks a ton for the reply AlphaC. My primary uses are gaming and Adobe Premiere, which to my knowledge don't use AVX, so I'll keep the MXH for now. Worst case scenario if I notice issues, I'll sell it and grab a Maximus XI Code or something for the fancy overlay (If I'm spending another $100 on a mobo, whats $50 more in the process for looks, right? XD). Appreciate as always your dedication to the forum!


----------



## Recipe7

Can anyone disway me from making the Maximus Formula as my motherboard of choice for z390? I am thinking it is the most obvious selection as i am already running a custom loop on my x99.


----------



## zGunBLADEz

¬¬ about the strix z390I board lol im going to burn that board up....

the whole IO shroud is metal







cannot be that bad for my 8700k


----------



## sdch

AlphaC said:


> sdch , it looks like the Z390-I STRIX is using the same Onsemi NCP302045 powerstage (rated 45A) as the other STRIX boards. I truly doubt it can effortlessly handle over 160W or so , it's half the powerstages as the STRIX Z390-E and Z390-A. Peak efficiency for the powerstage is roughly 91% and that's without a ~1.1X scaling factor for 1.3 or 1.4V output voltage.
> For example at 150W output and 1.3V you would have roughly 4.5W of power to be dissipated for each of the 4 powerstages (see figure 7 and figure 12). Even using the highly optimistic 12.4°C/W thermal resistance figure you'd be over 100°C quite easily ; using a realistic 20-30°C/W from an average VRM heatsink and you'd likely be well over the recommended 125°C. http://www.onsemi.com/pub/Collateral/NCP302045-D.PDF
> 
> 
> Unless you _have_ to buy an ASUS board I'd probably look into the Asrock Z370 Fatal1ty ITX or Asrock Z390 Phantom ITX as they are proven to be able to push older i7 hexcores with airflow due to using 5x thermally enhanced 60A ISL99227B powerstages that are more efficient , are normalized against a much higher 1.8V, and have lower thermal resistance due to the exposed junction (get hot less easily when heatsinked). It also comes with Thunderbolt 3 built in.



Thanks so much. Virtual rep for you.


----------



## tostitobandito

Just saw this video talking about the ASUS Maximus XI Hero board, including thermal testing with what I presume to be a 9900K.


----------



## Glerox

tostitobandito said:


> Just saw this video talking about the ASUS Maximus XI Hero board, including thermal testing with what I presume to be a 9900K.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C7lHP3_vsm4


Nice! I did ordered this board without having seen any reviews lol.
I hesitated with the Formula but the Hero seems to make a good job with the heatsync on the VRMs.
This board with a 9900K will be a pretty popular combo hehe. Can't wait to test it!


----------



## tostitobandito

Yeah, the Hero seems to be the Asus board to get unless you want some of the very specific things on the more expensive boards. The Code is the same with more plastic and the Formula has a better NIC and a waterblock. The Extreme is in its own category because it has different power delivery and a bunch of niche XOC features. So the reason to get the Code would be for the looks, and the reason to get the Formula would be if you run a custom loop. You pay a lot more for those relatively small features though.


Also, the Gene could be really interesting. It looks like it may have similar power delivery as the Extreme, given that it has two 8 pin connectors. It could end up being the best buy for people who don't mind the smaller form factor.


----------



## AlphaC

sdch said:


> Thanks so much. Virtual rep for you.


I was thinking about the STRIX Z390-I again after looking at the OC3D video. I looked at your pictures again and I think maybe you need an overview shot to make sure I'm not counting it incorrectly. It looks like some of the shots are the same angle?


If not, is there 8 powerstages instead of only the four I counted? 

Heat should be under 2W per powerstage if there's 8 of them. 



_I put two of your pictures together in paint, let me know if that's what it looks like:_









Seems to match their slide:










-----



MSI MPG EDGE confirmed 10 phases for VCORE

http://www.coolpc.com.tw/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=70&t=252499&




MSI MPG EDGE with i7-8086K hexcore @5.15GHz 1.33V or so, AIDA64 Extreme looks to hit ~80°C at a reported 156W or so

https://news.mydrivers.com/1/597/597926_3.htm


----------



## jasonwaterfalls

AlphaC said:


> I was thinking about the STRIX Z390-I again after looking at the OC3D video. I looked at your pictures again and I think maybe you need an overview shot to make sure I'm not counting it incorrectly. It looks like some of the shots are the same angle?
> 
> 
> If not, is there 8 powerstages instead of only the four I counted?
> 
> Heat should be under 2W per powerstage if there's 8 of them.
> 
> 
> 
> _I put two of your pictures together in paint, let me know if that's what it looks like:_
> View attachment 223110
> 
> 
> 
> Seems to match their slide:
> 
> View attachment 223124
> 
> 
> 
> -----
> 
> 
> 
> MSI MPG EDGE confirmed 10 phases for VCORE
> 
> http://www.coolpc.com.tw/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=70&t=252499&
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MSI MPG EDGE with i7-8086K hexcore @5.15GHz 1.33V or so, AIDA64 Extreme looks to hit ~80°C at a reported 156W or so
> 
> https://news.mydrivers.com/1/597/597926_3.htm


 Is this true for the MATX version as well? Z390M Gaming Edge AC. I'm trying to decide between the ASUS TUF Z390M and the MSI Z390M Gaming Edge AC, but I'm having a hard time of it. The MSI VRMs don't look very well cooled, which from what I understand was true on the Z370 version as well. The TUF looks better cooled, but I'm unsure of the VRM quality itself.


----------



## sdch

AlphaC said:


> I was thinking about the STRIX Z390-I again after looking at the OC3D video. I looked at your pictures again and I think maybe you need an overview shot to make sure I'm not counting it incorrectly. It looks like some of the shots are the same angle?
> 
> 
> If not, is there 8 powerstages instead of only the four I counted?
> 
> Heat should be under 2W per powerstage if there's 8 of them.
> 
> 
> 
> _I put two of your pictures together in paint, let me know if that's what it looks like:_
> View attachment 223110
> 
> 
> 
> Seems to match their slide:
> 
> View attachment 223124
> 
> 
> 
> -----
> 
> 
> 
> MSI MPG EDGE confirmed 10 phases for VCORE
> 
> http://www.coolpc.com.tw/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=70&t=252499&
> 
> 
> 
> 
> MSI MPG EDGE with i7-8086K hexcore @5.15GHz 1.33V or so, AIDA64 Extreme looks to hit ~80°C at a reported 156W or so
> 
> https://news.mydrivers.com/1/597/597926_3.htm


This is the best I can do with the lighting and camera I have:


----------



## ArneR

Just a heads up regarding the updated VRM on the Hero X rev. 1.01: 

My board is also rev. 1.01 and *does not* have an updated vrm as far as I can tell, at least not without removing the heatsink, but there are no extra components on the backside of the board as previously shown in this thread.

Will unmount the upper heatsink if needed, and confirm with pictures.


----------



## asdkj1740

That little ic with "fh" marking is upi up1962 which is a driver.
Therefore msi is confirmed to have 10 in parallel vcore on its edge model.


----------



## asdkj1740

ArneR said:


> Just a heads up regarding the updated VRM on the Hero X rev. 1.01:
> 
> My board is also rev. 1.01 and *does not* have an updated vrm as far as I can tell, at least not without removing the heatsink, but there are no extra components on the backside of the board as previously shown in this thread.
> 
> Will unmount the upper heatsink if needed, and confirm with pictures.


holly shiit, please take some pics and upload to here.
as far as i know that UPGRADE is due to supply issue, maybe asus got this fixed. unfortunately.


----------



## asdkj1740

zGunBLADEz said:


> ¬¬ about the strix z390I board lol im going to burn that board up....
> 
> the whole IO shroud is metal
> 
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4P37bDBH0q4
> 
> cannot be that bad for my 8700k


finally, a proper io cover.


----------



## asdkj1740

sdch said:


> This is the best I can do with the lighting and camera I have:


nice pic.
would you take a pic of the back pcb?
the vrm seems to be 8+1, i guess it is in 4+1 pwm mode, so any little ic on the back pcb at vrm area?


----------



## asdkj1740

sdch said:


> @AlphaC can you do your thing? Let me know if you need more photos.
> 
> Strix Z390-I:


well this is a new controller from asus: asp1401.
we have asp1400 and asp1405 in the past.
we need to summon @elmor for this.


----------



## sdch

asdkj1740 said:


> nice pic.
> would you take a pic of the back pcb?
> the vrm seems to be 8+1, i guess it is in 4+1 pwm mode, so any little ic on the back pcb at vrm area?


I should get a real camera and macro lens one of these days. Anyhow, does this help?


----------



## asdkj1740

sdch said:


> I should get a real camera and macro lens one of these days. Anyhow, does this help?


wow you are doing really great thank you.
that two ic on the back of the pcb are RT8125DGQW, a controller rather than a doubler or driver. 
https://stage.richtek.com/assets/product_file/RT8125C=RT8125D/DS8125CD-01.pdf

edited: given the brand new controller, cant confirm anything sorry.


----------



## SpeedyIV

tostitobandito said:


> Yeah, the Hero seems to be the Asus board to get unless you want some of the very specific things on the more expensive boards. The Code is the same with more plastic and the Formula has a better NIC and a waterblock. The Extreme is in its own category because it has different power delivery and a bunch of niche XOC features. So the reason to get the Code would be for the looks, and the reason to get the Formula would be if you run a custom loop. You pay a lot more for those relatively small features though.
> 
> 
> Also, the Gene could be really interesting. It looks like it may have similar power delivery as the Extreme, given that it has two 8 pin connectors. It could end up being the best buy for people who don't mind the smaller form factor.


I currently have a Max X Hero Wifi and am comparing the XI boards. The XI Code is close to the XI Hero but I think there are more differences than that plastic shroud thing. The PCIe connector arrangement is different, and the amount of USB3.0 Type A ports on the rear IO panel are different too. 

The Hero has:
2 x PCIe 3.0 x16 (x16 or dual x8 or x8/x4/x4)
1 x PCIe 3.0 x16 (x4 mode) *1
3 x PCIe 3.0 x1

The Code has:
2 x PCIe 3.0 x16 (x16, x8/x8, or x8/x4+x4) 
1 x PCIe 3.0 x16 (max at x4 mode) *
1 x PCIe 3.0 x16

Here are pics of the rear IO panels. The Code has more USB3.0 Type A ports. This layout stays the same for the Formula and the Extreme. Specs list an Asmedia USB3.1 Gen 1 controller that does not appear in the Hero spec. I suspect this is why the USB port count is higher.

The best place I have found for quick comparisons is 

https://www.anandtech.com/show/13407/intel-z390-motherboard-overview-every-motherboard-analyzed


----------



## tostitobandito

I was speaking at a high level. Yes there are a number of smaller differences, like the lack of additional PCIE slots on the Code due to the cover. And yeah, I/O config is slightly different as you noted with USB3 (it also loses the PS2 port). I suppose if someone had a need for a lot of USB3 ports, the $60 premium of the Code might make a little more sense.


----------



## elmor

jasonwaterfalls said:


> Can anyone tell what the VRMs are like on the Gene?
> 
> 
> https://www.overclock3d.net/reviews/cpu_mainboard/asus_rog_z390_maximus_xi_gene_preview/1





jugs said:


> +1
> 
> Very interested in this board



10x IR3555 without doublers for Vcore, ie 5x PWM signals each routed to two power stages. Same VRM on M11E.


----------



## GAN77

elmor said:


> 10x IR3555 without doublers for Vcore, ie 5x PWM signals each routed to two power stages. Same VRM on M11E.



I want this board


----------



## Glerox

tostitobandito said:


> the reason to get the Formula would be if you run a custom loop.


I run a custom loop but watercooling the VRMs for 200$ more is not worth it IMO. I won't run higher than 1.4V on the vcore aneways si the hero heatsync should be fine I guess.


----------



## jasonwaterfalls

GAN77 said:


> I want this board


 Anyone have a clue when it's coming out?


----------



## tostitobandito

Yeah the Gene looks pretty cool, like a pocket Extreme. Curious to see what the MSRP is. Probably less than the $500 Extreme, but it won't be cheap.


----------



## SpirosKGR

I really hope some of the new itx z390 boards ex. Asus z390i or Asrock z390 phantom itx can handle a 9900K at 5 for gaming usage. What do you guys think?


----------



## jasonwaterfalls

tostitobandito said:


> Yeah the Gene looks pretty cool, like a pocket Extreme. Curious to see what the MSRP is. Probably less than the $500 Extreme, but it won't be cheap.


 I'm willing to pick it up if it's good, but I wish I knew when it was coming out so I can decide if I want to bother waiting!


----------



## GAN77

tostitobandito said:


> Yeah the Gene looks pretty cool, like a pocket Extreme. Curious to see what the MSRP is. Probably less than the $500 Extreme, but it won't be cheap.


ASUS ROG Z390 Maximus XI Gene Preview

https://www.overclock3d.net/reviews/cpu_mainboard/asus_rog_z390_maximus_xi_gene_preview/2


----------



## br0da

@elmor any other VRM info to share?


----------



## AlphaC

Aorus Elite https://www.clubedohardware.com.br/...e-gigabyte-z390-aorus-elite-r36892/?nbcpage=6



Z390 Extreme4 confirmed uP9521P PWM https://www.xfastest.com/thread-223075-1-1.html


Aorus Master/Ultra vs ROG Hero (power , SSD performance, audio, other non CPU performance things) https://www.computerbase.de/2018-10...abyte-intel/3/#abschnitt_fazit_und_empfehlung
* Note the thermal backplate on the Master




elmor said:


> 10x IR3555 without doublers for Vcore, ie 5x PWM signals each routed to two power stages. Same VRM on M11E.


 Appreciate your input :thumb:




Glerox said:


> I run a custom loop but watercooling the VRMs for 200$ more is not worth it IMO. I won't run higher than 1.4V on the vcore aneways si the hero heatsync should be fine I guess.



Formula's cost over the Hero is justified by waterblock + the OLED display with monitoring. If you were to buy a monoblock for a board it'd cost you about $130.


----------



## GreedyMuffin

If I deciede to get a 9900K to replace my golden 8700K, would a Z370 Taichi still be plenty? I'm running a custom loop. Got a 120mm fan on the VRMs (better be safe than sorry).

Thank you.


----------



## SpeedyIV

tostitobandito said:


> I was speaking at a high level. Yes there are a number of smaller differences, like the lack of additional PCIE slots on the Code due to the cover. And yeah, I/O config is slightly different as you noted with USB3 (it also loses the PS2 port). I suppose if someone had a need for a lot of USB3 ports, the $60 premium of the Code might make a little more sense.


I wasn't trying to nit pick you. I just happened to be discovering these small differences when I read your post. Yeah the Code does not have the PS2 ports. The other difference I forgot to mention is the Hero has an HDMI and a DP1.4 video output for the IGPU. The Code just has a single HDMI port. I suspect most everyone here will not care about this at all. Personally, I actually use the IGPU, in tandem with a Titan, because i have a lot of displays connected (6), and since they are all 1920x1080 displays, the IGPU is fine. I don't game, so high resolutions and high frame rates are really not important to me. If I see a picture, I am happy. I know activating the IGPU can reduce performance a bit but I am not pushing my rig to the max. I took it up to 5GHz when I put it together, but then backed it off a bit for daily driving. The IGPU is there and for my use works fine so why not use it.

I thin the biggest difference is the PCIE slot arrangements. The Hero has 3 x PCIe 3.0 x1 whereas the Code has another 1 x PCIe 3.0 x16. I am still thinking about this. Then again, like other Asus boards I have owned, that last full length slot is so close to the edge of the motherboard that just about anything you plug into it is going to block all the headers, switches, and the post code display. There is no way you can put a 2-slot GPU in that last slot. Since the i9 9900K is still limited to 16 lanes, I guess it doesn't really matter. I do kind of like all those USB3.0 Type A ports on the Code. I have a lot of USB3.0 devices. I do not have a lot of devices that can fully utilize USB3.1 Gen 2. Discounting USB2.0 ports, the Code has 5 more USB3 ports than the Hero. Nothing a decent USB3.0 hub won't solve, but still.

So all in all, I am tempted to go with the Code, but really don't like the look of that plastic PCIE shroud. What is the point of it? Aesthetics? Maybe I am weird but I like looking at circuit boards more than I like looking at plastic...


----------



## bee144

SpeedyIV said:


> I wasn't trying to nit pick you. I just happened to be discovering these small differences when I read your post. Yeah the Code does not have the PS2 ports. The other difference I forgot to mention is the Hero has an HDMI and a DP1.4 video output for the IGPU. The Code just has a single HDMI port. I suspect most everyone here will not care about this at all. Personally, I actually use the IGPU, in tandem with a Titan, because i have a lot of displays connected (6), and since they are all 1920x1080 displays, the IGPU is fine. I don't game, so high resolutions and high frame rates are really not important to me. If I see a picture, I am happy. I know activating the IGPU can reduce performance a bit but I am not pushing my rig to the max. I took it up to 5GHz when I put it together, but then backed it off a bit for daily driving. The IGPU is there and for my use works fine so why not use it.
> 
> I thin the biggest difference is the PCIE slot arrangements. The Hero has 3 x PCIe 3.0 x1 whereas the Code has another 1 x PCIe 3.0 x16. I am still thinking about this. Then again, like other Asus boards I have owned, that last full length slot is so close to the edge of the motherboard that just about anything you plug into it is going to block all the headers, switches, and the post code display. There is no way you can put a 2-slot GPU in that last slot. Since the i9 9900K is still limited to 16 lanes, I guess it doesn't really matter. I do kind of like all those USB3.0 Type A ports on the Code. I have a lot of USB3.0 devices. I do not have a lot of devices that can fully utilize USB3.1 Gen 2. Discounting USB2.0 ports, the Code has 5 more USB3 ports than the Hero. Nothing a decent USB3.0 hub won't solve, but still.
> 
> So all in all, I am tempted to go with the Code, but really don't like the look of that plastic PCIE shroud. What is the point of it? Aesthetics? Maybe I am weird but I like looking at circuit boards more than I like looking at plastic...


Serious question, Intel ARK says 9900K has 24 PCI lanes and the 8700K has 16. Does the 9900K really have more?


----------



## zGunBLADEz

bee144 said:


> SpeedyIV said:
> 
> 
> 
> I wasn't trying to nit pick you. I just happened to be discovering these small differences when I read your post. Yeah the Code does not have the PS2 ports. The other difference I forgot to mention is the Hero has an HDMI and a DP1.4 video output for the IGPU. The Code just has a single HDMI port. I suspect most everyone here will not care about this at all. Personally, I actually use the IGPU, in tandem with a Titan, because i have a lot of displays connected (6), and since they are all 1920x1080 displays, the IGPU is fine. I don't game, so high resolutions and high frame rates are really not important to me. If I see a picture, I am happy. I know activating the IGPU can reduce performance a bit but I am not pushing my rig to the max. I took it up to 5GHz when I put it together, but then backed it off a bit for daily driving. The IGPU is there and for my use works fine so why not use it.
> 
> I thin the biggest difference is the PCIE slot arrangements. The Hero has 3 x PCIe 3.0 x1 whereas the Code has another 1 x PCIe 3.0 x16. I am still thinking about this. Then again, like other Asus boards I have owned, that last full length slot is so close to the edge of the motherboard that just about anything you plug into it is going to block all the headers, switches, and the post code display. There is no way you can put a 2-slot GPU in that last slot. Since the i9 9900K is still limited to 16 lanes, I guess it doesn't really matter. I do kind of like all those USB3.0 Type A ports on the Code. I have a lot of USB3.0 devices. I do not have a lot of devices that can fully utilize USB3.1 Gen 2. Discounting USB2.0 ports, the Code has 5 more USB3 ports than the Hero. Nothing a decent USB3.0 hub won't solve, but still.
> 
> So all in all, I am tempted to go with the Code, but really don't like the look of that plastic PCIE shroud. What is the point of it? Aesthetics? Maybe I am weird but I like looking at circuit boards more than I like looking at plastic...
> 
> 
> 
> Serious question, Intel ARK says 9900K has 24 PCI lanes and the 8700K has 16. Does the 9900K really have more?
Click to expand...

..


----------



## AlphaC

This isn't a great way to measure things but I think I finally found thermal imagery for the Z390-A / Z390-E STRIX boards. The article is titled: _Core i9-9900K is no problem! ASUS mainboard 'Prime Z390-A'_









Spoiler



Volts vs frequency for 71% silicon quality










_The Z390-A, which represents the Prime series, is of course also equipped with DrMOS, so the stability of the PWM temperature does not exceed the early 70's even during the load testing of the 8-core CPU with OCCT. When the load test was 69 degrees, this temperature would not have been possible without DrMOS._
https://kbench.com/?q=node/191974


* The caution here is that it doesn't say the CPU was overclocked when that image was taken.


----------



## GBT-MatthewH

Here are some VRM images of Z390 AORUS Master / Ultra. Keep in mind the Ultra shares the exact same VRM as Pro (Wifi)/Elite.

This is Prime95 Small FFTS for 20 minutes with no airflow on the VRM (open bench) using a 8700k @ 4.3

Master without heatsink:









Ultra without heatsink:









Master with Heatsink:










Ultra with Heatsink:


----------



## HKPolice

GBT-MatthewH said:


> Here are some VRM images of Z390 AORUS Master / Ultra. Keep in mind the Ultra shares the exact same VRM as Pro (Wifi)/Elite.
> 
> This is Prime95 Small FFTS for 20 minutes with no airflow on the VRM (open bench) using a 8700k @ 4.3
> 
> Master without heatsink:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ultra without heatsink:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Master with Heatsink:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ultra with Heatsink:


Is it just me or are the pics not showing up?


----------



## bastian

GBT-MatthewH said:


> Here are some VRM images of Z390 AORUS Master / Ultra. Keep in mind the Ultra shares the exact same VRM as Pro (Wifi)/Elite.
> 
> This is Prime95 Small FFTS for 20 minutes with no airflow on the VRM (open bench) using a 8700k @ 4.3
> 
> Master without heatsink:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ultra without heatsink:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Master with Heatsink:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ultra with Heatsink:


Images are not loading.

Are you aware of the review that mentioned the Gigabyte boards are not allowing booting into the BIOS with newer Samsung NVMe drives?

I have a Z390 Master on the way and have a Samsung 970 Evo. This will be a problem if it is wide spread.


----------



## GBT-MatthewH

HKPolice said:


> Is it just me or are the pics not showing up?


Fixed, but I can't figure out how to not double post the attachment and in-line images


----------



## GBT-MatthewH

bastian said:


> Are you aware of the review that mentioned the Gigabyte boards are not allowing booting into the BIOS with newer Samsung NVMe drives?
> 
> I have a Z390 Master on the way and have a Samsung 970 Evo. This will be a problem if it is wide spread.


Hmm let me look into it. Can you link the review?


----------



## bastian

GBT-MatthewH said:


> Hmm let me look into it. Can you link the review?


https://www.computerbase.de/2018-10...abyte-intel/3/#abschnitt_fazit_und_empfehlung

"The test showed that the Gigabyte motherboard still has a problem with M.2 and the 960 Pro. The BIOS simply does not allow operation, not even booting to the BIOS is possible if this M.2-SSD is installed in one of the three bays. Gigabyte was informed about the problem, but was not able to remedy it so soon before the start. However, the sample with an older 128 GB M.2 SSD Samsung XP941 shows that there is no general problem with M.2, as it worked in all three M.2 slots."


----------



## GBT-MatthewH

bastian said:


> https://www.computerbase.de/2018-10...abyte-intel/3/#abschnitt_fazit_und_empfehlung
> 
> "The test showed that the Gigabyte motherboard still has a problem with M.2 and the 960 Pro. The BIOS simply does not allow operation, not even booting to the BIOS is possible if this M.2-SSD is installed in one of the three bays. Gigabyte was informed about the problem, but was not able to remedy it so soon before the start. However, the sample with an older 128 GB M.2 SSD Samsung XP941 shows that there is no general problem with M.2, as it worked in all three M.2 slots."


Thanks, Ill check on this end and see what I find out.

Edit: Not sure whats going on with the testers system (we are working with him directly) however I am looking at internal test results for both the 960 and 970 Pro on our Z390. We will keep digging but I think there is something else going on, not a compatibility issue per se.


----------



## HKPolice

@GBT-MatthewH Is there a reason why the Aorus Master is using IR3553 40A DrMOS vs SiC634 50A DrMOS in the Aorus Ultra/Pro? On paper it seems like the SiC634 is a superior mosfet. The ISL6617A used on Ultra/Pro boards also seems like a superior doubler since it has current balancing capability.


----------



## GBT-MatthewH

HKPolice said:


> @GBT-MatthewH Is there a reason why the Aorus Master is using IR3553 40A DrMOS vs SiC634 50A DrMOS in the Aorus Ultra/Pro? On paper it seems like the SiC634 is a superior mosfet. The ISL6617A used on Ultra/Pro boards also seems like a superior doubler since it has current balancing capability.


You will see when we can release benchmarks with 9900k. There is a reason IR is more expensive. Higher capacity != lower temps 

Edit: Also for the IR there is current balancing, however it happens before the doubler not at the doubler. Let me prefaced this by saying I am not a VRM expert like Alpha/Buildzoid/etc but my understanding is its an order of operations thing - In the end its not like the IR solution will push 30A to one phase and 10A to the other. Others will be able to measure it and explain it more clearly when tests come out.

Tl;Dr on the ISL solution balancing happens at the doubler, on the IR solution it happens at the PWM controller. Tests should show the IR is cooler - look at the 8700K results


----------



## asdkj1740

Set them to run at 5ghz 1.35v pls.


----------



## Lass3

jasonwaterfalls said:


> Is this true for the MATX version as well? Z390M Gaming Edge AC. I'm trying to decide between the ASUS TUF Z390M and the MSI Z390M Gaming Edge AC, but I'm having a hard time of it. The MSI VRMs don't look very well cooled, which from what I understand was true on the Z370 version as well. The TUF looks better cooled, but I'm unsure of the VRM quality itself.


Same. I'm probably going mATX this time. MSI Z390M Edge AC looks great (I'm not sure if LED can be turned off in BIOS/UEFI tho, I hope so?!) - Any have experience with MSI boards knows if Mystic Light can be disabled WITHOUT windows software?

According to Anandtech MSI Z390M Gaming Edge AC is 8 phases
https://www.anandtech.com/show/13407/intel-z390-motherboard-overview-every-motherboard-analyzed/2

Not sure about the ASUS TUF Z390M, I can't find much info about it - It's only 8 pin but looks like some boards on Anandtech's list have better VRM with 8 than 8+4 ??


----------



## asdkj1740

Wow Matthewh this time rocks. Full of power to smash everything lol.😆


----------



## InsB

Do you have any infos regarding the MSI Z390 Gaming Pro Carbon and STRIX Z390-F? I was looking for a motherboard in the 200 euros price range and I am thinking about one of these two, I don't know which ones is better tho, I found no informations yet. I was wondering about the Z390 Aorus Pro as well but I am not a fan of gigabyte bios.


----------



## Cpfan1

Also looking for some 'budget' motherboard for my 9900k @ 4.9-5 ghz. I dont really care about LEDs, extra ports and all that kind of stuff. 

Could someone help me to choose new motherboard from this website?
https://www.computeruniverse.net/en.../motherboards?specs=f_Chipset+Type:Intel+Z370

Im not a specialist, but i think that aorus pro should be enough for 5ghz, am i right? Also, is there any difference in vrms/cooling between elite and pro? 

Thank you.


----------



## asdkj1740

Lass3 said:


> Same. I'm probably going mATX this time. MSI Z390M Edge AC looks great (I'm not sure if LED can be turned off in BIOS/UEFI tho, I hope so?!) - Any have experience with MSI boards knows if Mystic Light can be disabled WITHOUT windows software?
> 
> According to Anandtech MSI Z390M Gaming Edge AC is 8 phases
> https://www.anandtech.com/show/13407/intel-z390-motherboard-overview-every-motherboard-analyzed/2
> 
> Not sure about the ASUS TUF Z390M, I can't find much info about it - It's only 8 pin but looks like some boards on Anandtech's list have better VRM with 8 than 8+4 ??


if the MSI Z390M Gaming Edge AC is using up9521 then it cant be real 8 phases. it could only be doubled 8 or 8 in parallel.
it is easy to check on msi mobo, the mosfets solder points on the back of the pcb show whether two phases are linked together or not, if they are pointing to each other then it is in parellel design.

however, among other mobo on the same price range, msi has the best vrm heatsink which help a lot.


----------



## AlphaC

Cpfan1 said:


> Also looking for some 'budget' motherboard for my 9900k @ 4.9-5 ghz. I dont really care about LEDs, extra ports and all that kind of stuff.
> 
> Could someone help me to choose new motherboard from this website?
> https://www.computeruniverse.net/en.../motherboards?specs=f_Chipset+Type:Intel+Z370
> 
> Im not a specialist, but i think that aorus pro should be enough for 5ghz, am i right? Also, is there any difference in vrms/cooling between elite and pro?
> 
> Thank you.


 If the Aorus Pro can't do 5GHz non-AVX with the i9 I would be surprised , the power delivery is stronger than the Z390 ROG Maximus Hero. That's really not even debatable by the most diehard ASUS-only users, since they're using the same family of powerstages (with 50A rating in both cases) but 12 instead of 8 of them _and also using ISL6617 doublers_. The differences between the Aorus Ultra & Pro are featureset and the VRM heatsink : the Ultra has more surface area at the heatsink, USB 3.1 gen 2 front panel connector ,USB DAC UP, 3rd M.2, ESS chip for audio, and a debug code LED rather than LEDS that indicate which part (CPU/VGA/RAM) is not working right.


From what I see on the Gigabyte site, the Ultra lights up the VRM heatsink while the Pro (WIFI) lights up the RAM slots, so there's that. Not important though.


Between the elite and pro versions, I would definitely go for the Pro. Everywhere I've looked in Europe and North America the price difference is minor (about $10/ 10 € not including VAT). The Elite is packing Taiwanese capacitors from Apaq rather than the black FP Caps on the Aorus Pro. In addition, it loses the heatpipe that distributes heat between both VRM heatsinks which may result in higher likelihood for hot spots. Mentioned a few pages ago, but it also drops the thermal sensor and fan support to 6 sensors and 5 headers (instead of 10 sensors and 8 headers with 2 thermal probe header).

Aorus Pro WIFI 207.90 €: https://www.computeruniverse.net/en/gigabyte-z390-aorus-pro-wifi
Aorus Pro _194.90 €_ : https://www.computeruniverse.net/en/gigabyte-z390-aorus-pro
Aorus Elite 181.90 €: https://www.computeruniverse.net/en/gigabyte-z390-aorus-elite

Here's steven's unedited teardown of the Pro non-WIFI model 




Ultimately all the Aorus boards aren't budget boards. They're really _midrange_ boards with improved VRM if you look at featureset. They're priced relative to the midrange Z390-A from ASUS it looks like.
(To me, budget board would be something that is just above the cheapest boards with ALC892 or some other cut down featureset. Think ASUS TUF / MSI Tomahawk)

--------------


InsB said:


> Do you have any infos regarding the MSI Z390 Gaming Pro Carbon and STRIX Z390-F? I was looking for a motherboard in the 200 euros price range and I am thinking about one of these two, I don't know which ones is better tho, I found no informations yet. I was wondering about the Z390 Aorus Pro as well but I am not a fan of gigabyte bios.


Z390 Pro Carbon is probably 10X 4c029n+4c024n with a UPI9521 PWM in 5+1 (see hwjournal) unless it's 8X via 4+2. Nothing particularly amazing since it's similar to a budget Gigabyte board.
Z390-F is using 8x NCP302045 45A rated ONsemi powerstages with a rebranded PWM. It's a stronger board but it's a reskinned Z390-A.

Preview (German) https://www.hw-journal.de/testberic...i-mpg-z390-gaming-pro-carbon?showall=&start=3
Review (french) https://www.hardwarecooking.fr/test-msi-mpg-z390-gaming-pro-carbon/5

Z390 Aorus Pro is on the level of the ROG Maximus XI Hero at least from what we know. It's using the same family of Vishay 50A rated Powerstages (SIC634) as the Maximus XI Hero which has 8x SiC639 , but it also is using ISL6617 doublers and 12 of them. I've also seen the aorus audio implementation scoring on computerbase and it is above that of the Maximus XI Hero.

--------------
*@ Lass3* 

Z390M Gaming Edge AC is probably "8" phases obtained the same way as before:4 PWM phases with two phases connected together per channel.I have little faith in the UPI semiconductor 9521PWM.It's definitely weaker than the implementation by Gigabyte with 10 pairs of 4C10n+4C06n and doublers, although the 4C024+4C029N combination if used on the MSI board has a slight advantage per powerpak mosfet in terms of on state resistance (hence the Low(RDS)on term) and Gigabyte is using push pins to mount the VRM heatsink.

The TUF is similar to the Edge from what I can tell. Buying a TUF board is risky since they haven't supported their TUF lineup for overclocking very much, similar to the STRIX Z370-H (which isn't cheap price-wise at all). In this generation it appears the TUF and Z390-H don't have their AI overclocking ability with silicon quality rating and prediction, which is part of the convenience of buying an ASUS board. Right now it looks like the Z390 ROG Maximus Gene is the mATX board to buy (10X IR3555), but I'm not sure of the cost difference on that.Asus segments their boards quite clearly, ROG at the top , STRIX is essentially Z390-A level (except STRIX -H), and TUF is basic/budget(think non overclocking).

If you're thinking of buying the Z390M EDGE AC I would wait for reviews. The ASUS + Gigabyte boards are _generally_ priced according to their performance this generation.Buying the MSI board is technically a gamble this early on.


---------------------------



Recipe7 said:


> @*AlphaC* - Can you disway me from making the Maximus Formula XI as my motherboard of choice for z390? I am thinking it is the most obvious selection as i am already running a custom loop on my x99? My goal is higher clocks possible, like 5.3-5.4ghz if i find the right chip. I appreciate your input on all the mbs in discussion, definitely helpful



If you're buying a binned chip then anything less than Maximus XI Hero or Aorus Ultra (Pro if you can deal with lack of debug code LED) doesn't make sense. 

The Taichi was a great board for Z370 but it's selling mainly on features this time around since the power delivery didn't get updated (looks like heatsink enlargement was the main change for power delivery). The headroom isn't as high this time.



If you are watercooling the VRM and the CPU you will likely have better results than people watercooling the Hero without a monoblock. ROG Hero + monoblock is about the cost of a Formula (and you don't get a OLED display or the backplate), so you'd save money if you were planning on buying a monoblock or custom VRM block for a hero.


So no, until monoblocks come out for Z390 I think that's your best bet if you plan on going for 53-54x multiplier given it is still 14nm process and that means most ambient OC will likely hit a wall at 5.2-5.3.


--------------------------

Confirmed Extreme4 was changed to UP9521:

https://www.clubedohardware.com.br/...ca-mãe-asrock-z390-extreme4-r36893/?nbcpage=5


---------------------------





ZaknafeinGR said:


> Do you think the Z370 GBT Gaming 5 has a chance of properly handling the 9900K @ 5-5.2 with a monoblock or is that a rather ambitious plan? I know it will have issues without (as I ran into power delivery issues with the 8700K at 5.2+/1.4v+), just not sure if it's solely due to thermals.


 It's ambitious , especially if AVX instructions are involved at all. If I were in your situation I would probably sell it off (also goes for Z370 STRIX , Z370 M5 + Pro Carbon, and Z370-A users) and buy the successor Aorus Ultra/Pro. If you buy a monoblock and it doesn't work out it will be more money and it will be difficult to offload a monoblock for a midrange motherboard that doesn't share a power design with the top end board.


If you had stated it is the i7-9700K then it would be slightly different. Putting a $500+ CPU into a $170 board with a $150 monoblock isn't balanced in any way; $250-300 CPU into a $170 board makes more sense.



The Aorus Ultra is the direct successor to Gaming 5 but the Pro shares the power delivery design with the Ultra.


----------------------------


doom26464 said:


> Trying to find a board in the 300-350 Canadian range(200-250USD)
> I will be doing x264 encoding(which If I recall is AVX workload) so wondering if I can get into a board that will handle a 5.0-5.1 ghz with AVX workload going.
> 
> 
> If i have to push my price bracket up some I will take it into consideration.


x265 is AVX2 IIRC , while x264 should be AVX



I don't want to give wrong information so I think we need to wait until the 19th when NDA is up for anything definitive for AVX workloads.


From the power design on Z390, I would say Z390 Aorus Pro is the lowest one to watch (Ultra is 250 USD, Pro / Pro WIFI is ~$200 USD). It matches or exceeds Maximus XI Hero power design.


----------



## Recipe7

@AlphaC - Can you disway me from making the Maximus Formula XI as my motherboard of choice for z390? I am thinking it is the most obvious selection as i am already running a custom loop on my x99? My goal is higher clocks possible, like 5.3-5.4ghz if i find the right chip. I appreciate your input on all the mbs in discussion, definitely helpful


----------



## ZaknafeinGR

AlphaC said:


> So no, until monoblocks come out for Z390 I think that's your best bet if you plan on going for 53-54x multiplier given it is still 14nm process and that means most ambient OC will likely hit a wall at 5.2-5.3.


Do you think the Z370 GBT Gaming 5 has a chance of properly handling the 9900K @ 5-5.2 with a monoblock or is that a rather ambitious plan? I know it will have issues without (as I ran into power delivery issues with the 8700K at 5.2+/1.4v+), just not sure if it's solely due to thermals.


----------



## doom26464

Trying to find a board in the 300-350 Canadian range(200-250USD)
I will be doing x264 encoding(which If I recall is AVX workload) so wondering if I can get into a board that will handle a 5.0-5.1 ghz with AVX workload going. 


If i have to push my price bracket up some I will take it into consideration.


----------



## eric98k

Coolpc review: Asus Strix Z390-I & Z390-F 
http://www.coolpc.com.tw/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=252540

Z390-I: PWM ASP1401CTB, 6+2, 8x OnSemi NCP302045 (45A) and 4C10B + 4C06B

Z390-F: PWM ASP1400CTB, 8+2, 10x Vishay SiC639 (50A)


----------



## marcolisi

Hi guys, I have pre-ordered an Intel Core i9-9900K Coffee Lake and I was wondering what among the 2 motherboards MEG Z390 GODLIKE or the ASUS ROG Maximus XI Extreme would you get if you would use your pc for VR games using the new pimax headsets 8k or 5k+ or 8kx , and for playing car simulators games using a car simulator 3 DOF and 6 DOF rig and with butt-kickers and transducers for simulating the car vibration through the sound card. I also preordered a msi 2080 ti trio video card

Thanks!


----------



## AlphaC

@ eric98K , the Chinese site doesn't say anything about 6+2 , are you sure that it is 6+2 rather than 8 without doublers? The markings for the 4C09+4C06 are *PQ* while the ones for VCore are *PUQ*


For example , the B360M-A also uses that PWM controller and it has 5 phases total.

----


Also http://www.vmodtech.com/en/article/msi-mag-z390-tomahawk-unbox-preview/page/2

Tomahawk is looking to be some sort of connected 2 "phases" per PWM channel design rather than a proper doubling scheme.

Also unlike the Edge, it has an IO shield so the "extended heatsink" is actually impeded by that piece under it. Thermally the Z390 Edge might perform better than the Pro Carbon if they're the same power design.


-----


marcolisi said:


> Hi guys, I have pre-ordered an Intel Core i9-9900K Coffee Lake and I was wondering what among the 2 motherboards MEG Z390 GODLIKE or the ASUS ROG Maximus XI Extreme would you get if you would use your pc for VR games using the new pimax headsets 8k or 5k+ or 8kx , and for playing car simulators games using a car simulator 3 DOF and 6 DOF rig and with butt-kickers and transducers for simulating the car vibration through the sound card.
> 
> Thanks!


 Neither is_ required_.

You don't need a $600 board to run a i9-9900K for gaming, you didn't mention anything about overclocking.


(spoiler because slightly offtopic) 



Spoiler



*Asus ROG Maximus XI Extreme rear USB 3.0/3.1 outputs:*

4 x USB 3.1 Gen 2 (red) : 1 x Type-C+3 x Type-A
6 x USB 3.1 Gen 1
(1x USB 3.1 gen 2 internal connector)


*Maximus XI Hero rear USB 3.0/3.1 outputs:*
4 x USB 3.1 Gen 2 : 1 x Type-C+3 x Type-A
2 x USB 3.1 Gen 1 (blue) Type-A 

(1x USB 3.1 gen 2 front panel connector)


*Aorus Ultra (or Master) USB 3.0/3.1 rear ports:*
1 x USB Type-C™ port, with USB 3.1 Gen 2 support
3 x USB 3.1 Gen 2 Type-A ports (red)
2 x USB 3.1 Gen 1 ports
(1 x USB 3.1 Gen 2 front panel connector)


*MSI Ace USB 3.1 rear ports:*
5x USB 3.1 Gen2 Type A : 1x derived from Asmedia ASM3142 rather than the Intel Z390 chipset
1x USB 3.1 Gen2 Type-C : derived from Asmedia ASM3142 rather than the Intel Z390 chipset
(2x Type-C 3.1 gen 2 internal connectors)


*MSI Z390 Godlike rear USB 3.0/3.1 outputs:*
4 x USB 3.1 gen 2: 1 Type-C and 3 Type-A
2 x USB 3.1 Gen1 (SuperSpeed USB) ports on the back panel via Asmedia ASM1042
(2x USB 3.1 gen 2 type-C internal connectors)

*ASrock Z390 Taichi rear USB 3.0/3.1 rear ports:*
3 x USB 3.1 Gen2 Type-A Ports (10 Gb/s)
1 x USB 3.1 Gen2 Type-C Port (10 Gb/s) 
4 x USB 3.1 Gen1 Ports from Z390 chipset
(1x USB 3.1 gen 2 front panel connector) 

*Aorus Pro Wifi USB 3.0 / USB 3.1 rear ports:*
1 x USB Type-C™ port, with USB 3.1 Gen 2 support
2 x USB 3.1 Gen 2 Type-A ports (red)
3 x USB 3.1 Gen 1 ports
(main difference is no USB 3.1 gen 2 front panel header , it's USB 3.1 gen 1 type-C aka USB 3.0)


 
I'd probably look at the Maximus XI Hero or Gigabyte Aorus Ultra in your case for the USB 3.1 gen 2 ports. Godlike is definitely a bad choice for rear USB output.


edit: Godlike is also a bad choice for audio IMO since the advantage is minor and sometimes nonexistent



MSI Z390 MEG Godlike audio specs
ALC1220 codec x2 (one for front panel) 

ESS9018 DAC
WIMA film caps (source: https://www.hkepc.com/17354/神一般的存在__MSI_MEG_Z390_GODLIKE_主機板)


Asus Z390 ROG Maximus Extreme audio specs
ALC1220 codec

ES9023P DAC
SupremeFX shielding (whatever that is)



ASUS Z390 Maximus XI Hero audio specs
ALC1220 codec

ES9023P DAC
SupremeFX Shielding
There's a high precision clock source that I've seen on some tear-downs



Gigabyte Aorus Master audio spec
ALC1220-VB codec (newer)
ESS SABRE 9118 DAC
WIMA caps
High precision clock source / TXC oscillator
* in practice it doesn't perform as well as it could in hardware info NL audio testing , although computerbase testing had it and the Ultra ahead of the Maximus XI Hero https://www.computerbase.de/2018-10...gigabyte-intel/3/#abschnitt_ssdtest_und_sound



Gigabyte Aorus Ultra audio spec
ALC1220-VB codec
WIMA caps


MSI Z390 Ace audio spec
ALC1220 codec

ESS SABRE9018Q2C
(might have precision clock source)



Asrock Z390 Taichi audio spec
ALC1220 codec
Texas Instruments NE5532 amp




RMAA (rightmark audio analyzer) performance of some Z390 boards shows the Godlike isn't all that great:
https://nl.hardware.info/reviews/87...up-borden-voor-bij-je-8-core-geluidskwaliteit


see http://www.esstech.com/index.php/en/products/dac/





eric98k said:


> I read from the PCB markings. Vcc+Vccgt 8 stages: PWM ASP1401CTB (PU1000), left 4x NCP302045 (PUQ1011, PUQ1051, PUQ1021, PUQ1061), top 4x NCP302045 (PUQ1031, PUQ1071, PUQ1311, PUQ1321). PUQ1311, PUQ1321 seem to be Vccgt. Vccsa and Vccio single stages: left PWM RT8125DGQW (PU1500), 4C10B (PQ1511) + 4C06B (PQ1512); top PWM RT8125DGQW (PU2011), 3 mosfets (PQ2011, PQ2012, PQ2020).



I'll take your word on it as it is more cautious to list it as 6 phases for VCore.


----------



## marcolisi

AlphaC said:


> Neither is_ required_.
> 
> You don't need a $600 board to run a i9-9900K for gaming, you didn't mention anything about overclocking.
> 
> 
> 
> I'd probably look at the Maximus XI Hero or Gigabyte Aorus Ultra in your case for the USB 3.1 gen 2 ports. Godlike is definitely a bad choice for rear USB output.


Well, I need severe overclocking because the virtual reality pimax headsets will barely work with a 2080ti and I would not like to risk that the rest of the PC bottleneck the GPU. I need a high end pc also because I do a lot of video conversion and I need a fast pc for that. Would you still suggest the other 2 motherboards?

Also , how about the audio card? The reason why I thought about the Godlike was because of its audio quality and I thought to not buy a specific audio card for the butt-kickers if the on board audio card is good enough

Thanks!


----------



## eric98k

AlphaC said:


> @ eric98K , the Chinese site doesn't say anything about 6+2 , are you sure that it is 6+2 rather than 8 without doublers? The markings for the 4C09+4C06 are *PQ* while the ones for VCore are *PUQ*
> 
> 
> For example , the B360M-A also uses that PWM controller and it has 5 phases total.



I read from the PCB markings. Vcc+Vccgt 8 stages: PWM ASP1401CTB (PU1000), left 4x NCP302045 (PUQ1011, PUQ1051, PUQ1021, PUQ1061), top 4x NCP302045 (PUQ1031, PUQ1071, PUQ1311, PUQ1321). PUQ1311, PUQ1321 seem to be Vccgt. Vccsa and Vccio single stages: left PWM RT8125DGQW (PU1500), 4C10B (PQ1511) + 4C06B (PQ1512); top PWM RT8125DGQW (PU2011), 3 mosfets (PQ2011, PQ2012, PQ2020).


----------



## Recipe7

AlphaC said:


> If you're buying a binned chip then anything less than Maximus XI Hero or Aorus Ultra (Pro if you can deal with lack of debug code LED) doesn't make sense.
> 
> The Taichi was a great board for Z370 but it's selling mainly on features this time around since the power delivery didn't get updated (looks like heatsink enlargement was the main change for power delivery). The headroom isn't as high this time.
> 
> 
> 
> If you are watercooling the VRM and the CPU you will likely have better results than people watercooling the Hero without a monoblock. ROG Hero + monoblock is about the cost of a Formula (and you don't get a OLED display or the backplate), so you'd save money if you were planning on buying a monoblock or custom VRM block for a hero.
> 
> 
> So no, until monoblocks come out for Z390 I think that's your best bet if you plan on going for 53-54x multiplier given it is still 14nm process and that means most ambient OC will likely hit a wall at 5.2-5.3.


I'll be considering the Hero with Monoblock at this point as well. I already have a EK-Supremacy on my board but would be willing to make the cooling solution a single piece rather than a cpu block and seperate vrm cooler. Thanks for your input, AlphaC.


----------



## Telstar

I'll hit the plunge this round. Going for the Hero most likely with just an AIO for cooling. Any valid alternatives in the <300 pricerange?


----------



## lb_felipe

ROG MAXIMUS XI FORMULA without "water" is nonsense?


----------



## tconroy135

Telstar said:


> I'll hit the plunge this round. Going for the Hero most likely with just an AIO for cooling. Any valid alternatives in the <300 pricerange?


EVGA FTW is $239


----------



## tconroy135

lb_felipe said:


> ROG MAXIMUS XI FORMULA without "water" is nonsense?


I think the 'Code' version is the identical board without the water blocks and instead passive cooling.


----------



## lb_felipe

tconroy135 said:


> I think the 'Code' version is the identical board without the water blocks and instead passive cooling.


Yes, but it lacks an "over 1G ethernet". Here in my city we already have 2 Gbps internet download, therefore I would not want to get stuck 1 Gbps bound.


----------



## bastian

doom26464 said:


> Trying to find a board in the 300-350 Canadian range(200-250USD)
> I will be doing x264 encoding(which If I recall is AVX workload) so wondering if I can get into a board that will handle a 5.0-5.1 ghz with AVX workload going.
> 
> 
> If i have to push my price bracket up some I will take it into consideration.


The Gigabyte's look to have the best thermal and power. The Master and Ultra would be in your price range. I went with the Master.


----------



## doom26464

So what im getting is too go with gigabyte boards this time around? 

Whats there on board audio like on the master and ultra?


----------



## F-man4

ASUS recalled Hero & Formula because they had an automatically shutdown issue (caused by SiC639?).
But they didn't recall Code.
So does Code have different IC?


----------



## F-man4

BTW where is ASUS WS Z390 PRO?
(Edit)
Just googled it. No detail about its VRM except 10-phase.

BTW2 some Chinese users reported ASRock Fatal1ty Z370 Gaming-ITX/ac had a power limit that made 8700K can't OC much more than no-limit MBs.
If it's true, then this board shouldn't be better than mid-term tier.
So does Z390 Phantom Gaming-ITX/ac.


----------



## Naennon

F-man4 said:


> ASUS recalled Hero & Formula because they had an automatically shutdown issue (caused by SiC639?).
> But they didn't recall Code.
> So does Code have different IC?


source?


----------



## Hackslash

Naennon said:


> source?


there is no source because its BS....


----------



## Naennon

i know


----------



## tostitobandito

Still waiting for Amazon to get the Maximus boards in stock. I ordered on Monday and as far as I can tell they haven't received any yet. Newegg had some at launch but has since sold out of everything except for the COD version which nobody wants.


----------



## Cyph3r

F-man4 said:


> ASUS recalled Hero & Formula because they had an automatically shutdown issue (caused by SiC639?).
> But they didn't recall Code.
> So does Code have different IC?


Errrr wat?


----------



## CANTFINDCAPSLOCK

Has anyone updated the VRM tier list chart, for Z390? I have read a bunch of pages in this thread but haven't seen one. The charts are super useful. By the way, special thanks to AlphaC and br0da for all the hard work you guys put in.


----------



## tostitobandito

I think AlphaC posted a prelim screenshot of one a few pages back in this thread. If you're looking at the top, I don't think a lot is changing. The top couple tiers of Z390 boards are more or less the same models as the top couple tiers of Z370 boards, excepting a couple branding name changes.


----------



## F-man4

Naennon said:


> F-man4 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ASUS recalled Hero & Formula because they had an automatically shutdown issue (caused by SiC639?).
> But they didn't recall Code.
> So does Code have different IC?
> 
> 
> 
> source?
Click to expand...

Hong Kong market.


----------



## tostitobandito

F-man4 said:


> Hong Kong market.



Then why does Newegg once again have them in stock? Do you have a source?


As for other retailers, my guess is that Newegg had an agreement with Asus to be the first to get the boards and they'll trickle into Amazon and elsewhere next week. Asus did go over all the boards on Newegg's stream after all.


----------



## F-man4

tostitobandito said:


> F-man4 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hong Kong market.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Then why does Newegg once again have them in stock? Do you have a source?
> 
> 
> As for other retailers, my guess is that Newegg had an agreement with Asus to be the first to get the boards and they'll trickle into Amazon and elsewhere next week. Asus did go over all the boards on Newegg's stream after all.
Click to expand...

Can't find the BBS thread again but on Wednesday HK market did say currently unavailable for Hero & Formula. Code was still available.


----------



## Cyph3r

F-man4 said:


> Can't find the BBS thread again but on Wednesday HK market did say currently unavailable for Hero & Formula. Code was still available.


I'm sure if Asus had issued a recall it would be you know, announced somewhere. Literally can't find any source for this at all.


----------



## AlphaC

tostitobandito said:


> I think AlphaC posted a prelim screenshot of one a few pages back in this thread. If you're looking at the top, I don't think a lot is changing. The top couple tiers of Z390 boards are more or less the same models as the top couple tiers of Z370 boards, excepting a couple branding name changes.


There might be changes in the future but until real data arrives I'm likely leaving it as it is (as a prediction and a reference for people that are early adopters).

There's been people claiming the MSI Z390 Ace is unfairly placed at midrange level, but until we get reviews with oscilloscope or something with the PWM switching frequency I am hesitant to move it to Taichi level. In reality the Taichi _should_ be hotter than the Maximus boards and the Aorus boards but I don't want to chop the chart up so granularly because it is too early to know for sure. 

Everything in the white midrange zone is really down to heatsink implementation I think.


More detailed explanation


Spoiler



What we do know at this point is that *Ace *is using a IR35201 PWM with IR3598 phase doublers.


From sisoft sandra "leaks" I've seen at least 190-210W for i9-9900K and i7-9700K. Incidentally there also is a result of 5.2GHz and 5.1GHz (which can only happen overclocked). This means it is something along the lines of 160A peak roughly.



If we treat the *Ace* as a true 12 phase (i.e. it has 6x doublers and load balancing via the IR35201 PWM) and the switching frequency at 300kHz (the other boards with powerstages and powerblocks will be closer to 500kHz) then I obtain around 89% efficiency which would at worst be around ~80°C , this is without factoring in PCB and inductor winding losses or capacitor losses. I verified this in the ONsemi calculator , also discovering that the efficiency dips after 18A each (15A with 600kHz switching frequency would mean around 87%). Essentially while a board can be just as cool, if it's using half the switching frequency there is basically twice the ripple. There can easily be a 20°C temperature delta with double the switching frequency if the high side fet is slow (the Ace has a 4C029N high side fet which is rather slow).


Incidentally if you look at the NCP302045 Powerstages used on the *ASUS Z390-A* (& STRIX) , that is around 90% efficient at 20A (i.e. 8 phases for 160A) , and output voltage normalization graph included suggests that the power loss is about 10% more at voltages of 1.3-1.35V (i.e. ~ 89% efficient). This is the reason why STRIX boards are located at the same general area as the MSI Z390 Ace. Baseline switching frequency is 500kHz.



The Asrock *Phantom Gaming 6* and Extreme4 are also highly dependent on the PWM implementation in addition to heatsinks. It's the same as the IR35201 implementation but this time around we are driving 2 more cores and don't necessarily have the load balancing from the IR35201. Given that the up9521 is used on boards lower than the ACE I don't expect this to turn out very well for Asrock.



I also notated that the *Aorus Master* is relying heavily on the VRM heatsink. Since IR3553 is 90% efficient up to 25A I am hesitant to move it around ; a 160A load over 12 phases is merely 13A (in the optimal 92%ish efficiency area). What people often forget is according to the IR35201 datasheets there is a minimum amperage for a phase to turn on as part of the phase shedding function. The figure is 8A starting current per phase.

https://www.infineon.com/dgdl/Infin...N.pdf?fileId=5546d462576f347501579c95d19772b5


Via the Onsemi calculator, anything that's a 4C06 low side fet solution tends to be around 86-88% efficient at that 160A load if there's actually 10 phases. For a 160A load across 10 phases I obtain ~87%. This means the Gigabyte "Gaming" boards such as the SLI must definitely be below the Ace in performance.


So that leaves the MSI* Pro Carbon/Edge* implementations with Onsemi 4C029 and 4C024 : they're both using upi9521. We don't know enough about these PWMs. We do know there's 10 pairs of mosfets pushing that ~160A load which would be ~89% efficient _if properly doubled_. We haven't seen anything of that sort so we have to assume worst case. This means it's more likely to be around 86-87% efficient (confirmed via Onsemi calculator with 32A delivered to a 2 high mosfets and 2 low side mosfets per PWM phase) which is on par with non-Aorus Gigabyte Gaming boards.


The Tomahawk , Edge mATX, and Mortar are given quite a bit of leniency at the moment as they appear to be 8 phases for VCore but without doublers. If it's 4 PWM phases with 2 fets per phase, that's 40A per pair which is already below 85% efficient. I've put them at the bottom where it's labeled 150W , which is where I think the power level will be for people using it safely.





So no, it's not like I threw darts at a dart board to put things where they are contrary to what some people think. 




Cyph3r said:


> I'm sure if Asus had issued a recall it would be you know, announced somewhere. Literally can't find any source for this at all.




If I had an ASUS Maximus board on order I wouldn't cancel it just because of a rumor.



Worst outcome is you return it.


----------



## Cyph3r

AlphaC said:


> If I had an ASUS Maximus board on order I wouldn't cancel it just because of a rumor.
> 
> 
> 
> Worst outcome is you return it.


I've already got my Maximus XI Hero board installed - everything seems good to me!


----------



## AlphaC

Cyph3r said:


> I've already got my Maximus XI Hero board installed - everything seems good to me!


 Let us know how the efficiency /thermals are like in practice , I think it is the first time SiC639 / SiC634 is being used for cost savings on motherboards (they're like half the price of IR or TI parts)



The only other info we have is Gigabyte Matt's post with the comparison to IR3553 solution pushing a i7-8700K @ 4.3GHz , which is essentially stock clocks.


----------



## Cyph3r

AlphaC said:


> Let us know how the efficiency /thermals are like in practice , I think it is the first time SiC639 / SiC634 is being used for cost savings on motherboards (they're like half the price of IR or TI parts)
> 
> 
> 
> The only other info we have is Gigabyte Matt's post with the comparison to IR3553 solution pushing a i7-8700K @ 4.3GHz , which is essentially stock clocks.


Interesting. The VRM setup is worse than the Z370 Maximus Hero?

When running P95 29.4 (AVX) small ffts at 4.7GHz 1.2v the VRM temp probe read a max of 42c.

Is there anything you want me to test specifically?


----------



## AlphaC

I don't think the SiC639 powerstages are much worse (although the graph seems to have lower peak efficiency than a competing 60A powerstage and the baseline voltage is 1V) at normal loads , think they're a lot cheaper though. 

The only place I found information about voltage scaling was in the application notes.

Application note: http://www.vishay.com/docs/76949/vrpower.pdf









If the monitoring is worth anything, maybe a power draw from hwinfo64 at an average OC at 1.3 to 1.35V (around 4.9 - 5GHz) with a real AVX workload such as x264 (AVX) , x265 (AVX2), or Blender (AVX). In hwinfo64 sometimes there's* Power (Output)* and *Power (Input)* under the VRM temps as well as current in and current out.

Have you played with AI overclocking that's present on the board (omitted on Z390-H STRIX and TUF boards)? It's supposed to tell you how much voltage you need , how well your cooling cools the chip, power draw, silicon quality, etc. Since you probably had the i7-8700K overclocked beforehand, a comparison to manual overclocking and fine-tuning would be neat.

It's a huge convenience feature but it hasn't been proven to work and given that Intel i7 overclocking is mainly multiplier + voltage (rather than a bunch of memory subtimings) it isn't as huge a time saver as it could be.


----------



## Cyph3r

AlphaC said:


> If the monitoring is worth anything, maybe a power draw from hwinfo64 at an average OC at 1.3 to 1.35V (around 4.9 - 5GHz) with a real AVX workload such as x264 (AVX) , x265 (AVX2), or Blender (AVX). In hwinfo64 sometimes there's* Power (Output)* and *Power (Input)* under the VRM temps as well as current in and current out.
> 
> Have you played with AI overclocking that's present on the board (omitted on Z390-H STRIX and TUF boards)? It's supposed to tell you how much voltage you need , how well your cooling cools the chip, power draw, silicon quality, etc. Since you probably had the i7-8700K overclocked beforehand, a comparison to manual overclocking and fine-tuning would be neat.
> 
> It's a huge convenience feature but it hasn't been proven to work and given that Intel i7 overclocking is mainly multiplier + voltage (rather than a bunch of memory subtimings) it isn't as huge a time saver as it could be.



Some further testing. Initially I didn't want to go further than 4.7GHz as I was convinced my CPU was a dud - on my ASRock Z370 Taichi, my CPU would fall over at 5GHz even all the way up to 1.35v.

HOWEVER!

I've gone to 5GHz with 1.32v set in the BIOS. The real voltage seems to hover around 1.30v, and drops to 1.27v under load (this is with "Level 7" LLC). The BIOS describes the LLC as Level 1 having the most vdroop and Level 7 having the least. However this is more vdroop than I would like - I hope it's just due to immature BIOS. There is a "Level 8" option which I haven't tried - scared to because nowhere references it! 

More interestingly, even with the voltage dropping to 1.27v I've so far done about 20 mins of P95 (on my Taichi board it would fall over in seconds). Was my Taichi board a dud?

After 20 mins of P95, 5GHz @ 1.32v (1.27v real load), the VRM temp sensor has reported a max of 47c (33c on idle). The VRM heatsinks seem to be doing a really good job?

Regarding power draw - I used to use the 8700k: Enhanced Sensors for the "CPU Package Power". However HWINFO (even the latest beta version) seems stuck at 11w no matter what and I can't see the other sensors you mentioned.

According to the ASUS BIOS, my 8700k is "80% Sil Quality", my NH-D15S currently scores "176 pts" (apparently 140-150pts is a "good" air cooler and 160pts+ is customer WC. I assume because I'm delidded it thinks my cooler is better than it is? I don't know) and I can't remember what the predicted speeds and voltages were specifically (it changes when you change the core ratio) but when I first saw them I laughed cause of how low they were (remember my Taichi couldn't OC this CPU for crap). But lo and behold... it seems really accurate.

*EDIT*

So I looked at the AI optimised overclocking, super simple, uses the predictions to set an OC (so the OC can dynamically change boot to boot depending on temperatures and what not). They say you can use the AI options to set a predicted OC and then you can manually enter those settings to lock it in. The predictions are based on P95 small FFTs according to the BIOS.

APPARENTLY, my CPU can do 5.1GHz AVX load at 1.33v which I REALLY didn't believe, but figured I'd test it out.

I set 1.36v (1.35 real and drops to 1.30 under load)... and well, it's been running P95 for 10 mins so far, VRM temps have hit 51c. I'm honestly amazed. I know 10 mins is hardly a proof of stability, but 5GHz @ 1.35v would fail instantly on my Z370 Taichi, so the fact I'm doing 5.1GHz at 1.3v is blowing my mind right now.


----------



## Robbært

AlphaC said:


> I think it is the first time SiC639 / SiC634 is being used for cost savings on motherboards (they're like half the price of IR or TI parts)


Past 6min mark 51C 




SiC639 can't be cost savings ASUS ROG MAXIMUS XI FORMULA also have and only 10 of em
https://www.4gamer.net/games/047/G004755/20181008001/



AlphaC said:


> NCP302045 Powerstages used on the *ASUS Z390-A* (& STRIX) , that is around 90% efficient at 20A (i.e. 8 phases for 160A)


It doesn't matter. you can get 35A continuously from SiC639 with 83% at worst. 35*8 280W + loss 20% it will eat near 336W+.
What is important you can't get 35A from 4C024N / 4C029N / FDPC5030SG without very serious active cooling - they will be at 120C or more, supplying way under 20A. And these parts supposed to be cooled via board, not from case, where radiators touch them.
Earlier in this topic was video with FDPC5030SG at 132C 8700k z370 extreme4. it about 15A per at best.

I assume NCP302045 more or less equal to SiC639 and to IR3553. At least on paper it same chip.


----------



## AlphaC

There was probably something really wrong with your Z370 Taichi or its BIOS settings probably. There's plenty of delid i7-8700Ks on Z370 Taichis pushing 5.2GHz. Do you remember if you had the Fairchild or Sinopower one?

4.9-5.0GHz is a really average overclock on Coffee Lake if you have delid , maybe AVX offset higher than 2 is required if you don't have VRM cooling or your LLC settings are whack (wouldn't surprise me if it was a bugged BIOS).


Another alternative is the extra V_Droop is actually helping you on your new board as the chip is less power hungry as a result.


Seems to be a good result regardless if you are truly stable (i7-8700k hex core max current limit per Intel spec is 138A) so right now you're definitely under 180W or something around there.


https://www.intel.com/content/www/u...core/8th-gen-core-family-datasheet-vol-1.html
(page 127 of 143)


----------



## Cyph3r

AlphaC said:


> There was probably something really wrong with your Z370 Taichi or its BIOS settings probably. There's plenty of delid i7-8700Ks on Z370 Taichis pushing 5.2GHz. Do you remember if you had the Fairchild or Sinopower one?
> 
> 4.9-5.0GHz is a really average overclock on Coffee Lake if you have delid , maybe AVX offset higher than 2 is required if you don't have VRM cooling or your LLC settings are whack (wouldn't surprise me if it was a bugged BIOS).
> 
> 
> Another alternative is the extra V_Droop is actually helping you on your new board as the chip is less power hungry as a result.
> 
> 
> Seems to be a good result regardless if you are truly stable (i7-8700k hex core max current limit per Intel spec is 138A) so right now you're definitely under 180W or something around there.
> 
> 
> https://www.intel.com/content/www/u...core/8th-gen-core-family-datasheet-vol-1.html
> (page 127 of 143)


There was nothing out of place on the BIOS settings (I'm definitely not new to all this)! It was you who convinced me to go for the Z370 Taichi and I'd heard all sorts of great things about it - however there was some real strangeness going on with my particular Taichi (definitely not claiming it's ALL Taichi boards). I'd tried ALL the different BIOS versions for the Taichi (I've even got a 80 email thread with ASRock support regarding some CPU perf quirks I was having - they couldn't figure it out). 

I have the Fairchild Taichi (I still have it, it's sitting in the box). 

P95 is still going strong 5.1GHz/1.305v. Max core temp is 84c with a 5c spread. Like I said my Taichi would fail 5GHz/1.35v instantly (and I didn't bother testing higher than 1.35v because of temps), so yeah I'm pretty happy right now!

*EDIT*

According to the help pages in the Max XI Hero BIOS, Asus don't seem overly confident of the VRMs with an 8 core chip. They say that a LLC of level 5 should be used to strike a good balance of VRM performance/temps.

@AlphaC - Do you think the Aorus Master is a much better board than the Maximus XI Hero? Specs wise the Aorus Master seems to be a much better choice and Asus' seeming lack of confidence with 8 core chips is off putting. I really don't like the BIOS of GB boards though. @GBT-MatthewH Dare to offer some insight? How does the Aorus Master VRM setup compare to the Max XI Hero? Is the Aorus Master capable of handling high 9900k OC's without breaking a sweat?


----------



## eric98k

ASUS TUF Z390-PLUS GAMING WIFI and TUF Z390M-PRO GAMING WIFI
http://www.coolpc.com.tw/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=252597

VRM: PWM ASP1400CTB, 8+1, Vcc 8x (4C10B+4C06B), Vccgt 1x (4C10B+2x4C06B)


@AlphaC 

Z390-F: PWM ASP1400CTB, 8+2, 10x Vishay SiC639, not NCP302045 http://www.coolpc.com.tw/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=252540


----------



## inutile

I received my Maximus XI Code earlier this evening. I don't have a CPU for it yet but can post pics if that would be helpful in anyway.


----------



## tostitobandito

inutile said:


> I received my Maximus XI Code earlier this evening. I don't have a CPU for it yet but can post pics if that would be helpful in anyway.



Take off the VRM heatsink and throw up a close-up picture of that entire area. Don't think I've seen any on the interwebs yet.


----------



## Prospector

Can someone help me with my ultimate dilemma between Z390 Phantom 6 and Aorus Elite? Which one would you choose for higher chance of getting a good overclock? I like them both but Phantom 6 has more Oc features while Aorus Elite has a bit better vrms i think.


----------



## Cyph3r

@AlphaC - out of curiosity I went back to my Z370 Taichi - reset CMOS, reflashed bios etc. Ran 5.1GHz at 1.305v (Max XI Hero managed this for 40+ mins before I stopped it) and it BSOD'd within a minute.


----------



## Robbært

@Cyph3r what Asrock miss is VRM temperature sensor. It probably ran at 130C and die like in other youtube vid.

not saw link here ASUS ROG MAXIMUS XI FORMULA - SiC639


----------



## eric98k

From 4gamer's review, Maximus XI Formula running 8x SiC639 in parallel for vcore (PU10xx), and 2x SiC639 for vccgt (PU13xx)


----------



## cletus-cassidy

New Supermicro Z390s have launched. Steve has a basic description of VRMs here: https://www.tweaktown.com/news/63503/supermicros-c9z390-pgw-marries-pex8747-10g-lan-z390/index.html

Any thoughts on where these might fit in the hierarchy?


----------



## eric98k

Supermicro C9Z390-PGW: Vcc 6 phases (from user manual), TDA21232 50A stages


----------



## cletus-cassidy

eric98k said:


> Supermicro C9Z390-PGW: Vcc 6 phases (from user manual), TDA21232 50A stages


Looks like only a single 8 pin cpu power plug?


----------



## asdkj1740

i would say the aorus master's vrm are much more capable than our expectation.
the f3 launch bios on aorus mobo do not support the new user interface.
more importantly i can confirm that the the latest f5 bios support ddr4 manual overclocking, i can now be able to overclock the ddr4 beyond the xmp rated frequency. i try the adata xpg d41 3600c17 8*2 overclocking to 4000c19-25-25-45 @ 1.35v vccio and 1.35v vccsa and 1.5v ddr4 without any problem. those voltages are much more higher than it should be/ needed to be, i just wanted to exclude insufficient voltages problem.


the aorus master really supprise me in every aspect. 
z370 gaming 7 need a fan to suppress the vrm temp under 100c, while z390 aorus master easily handle 230w @ 1.35v without any heatsink mounted on the vrm nor active cooling. mattewh should not just post the vrm temp test on 8700k at stock, the mobo is insane.
and gigabyte finally fixes the ddr4 manual oc problem at least on aorus master, which is totally unexpected.


----------



## asdkj1740

eric98k said:


> ASUS TUF Z390-PLUS GAMING WIFI and TUF Z390M-PRO GAMING WIFI
> http://www.coolpc.com.tw/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=252597
> 
> VRM: PWM ASP1400CTB, 8+1, Vcc 8x (4C10B+4C06B), Vccgt 1x (4C10B+2x4C06B)
> 
> 
> @AlphaC
> 
> Z390-F: PWM ASP1400CTB, 8+2, 10x Vishay SiC639, not NCP302045 http://www.coolpc.com.tw/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=252540


 @br0da
z390f 
asp1400 4+1 mode
8 vcore and in parallel, 2 igpu are in parallel too
no any doublers or nor drivers
all vcore and igpu mosfet are NCP302045
vcore markings: pu1011~pu1081
igpu markings: pu1311~pu1321
asp1400 is marked as pu1000


heatsink is not bad, i like it. i dont like the layout of the vcore are spread as 6+2(=8 in parallel).
the vrm is similar to the z370 a ii. the z370 a ii has just one igpu phases in 4+1 mode and 8 vcore in parallel with the same mosfets.


----------



## asdkj1740

eric98k said:


> From 4gamer's review, Maximus XI Formula running 8x SiC639 in parallel for vcore (PU10xx), and 2x SiC639 for vccgt (PU13xx)


yes it should be in parallel, as it is using asp1400 but not the asp1405 on z370 forumla.


the asus tuf mobo has the same controller.
but the tuf has 8 drivers, 8 vcore in parallel with 8 drivers, its like the ex4/taichi z370. 
not too bad.


----------



## AlphaC

Cyph3r said:


> @*AlphaC* - out of curiosity I went back to my Z370 Taichi - reset CMOS, reflashed bios etc. Ran 5.1GHz at 1.305v (Max XI Hero managed this for 40+ mins before I stopped it) and it BSOD'd within a minute.



I don't think you can even sell that board to someone overclocking if that's the case. There's something awfully wrong then. Is there any way for you to RMA it?



-----------------------------------------------------------------------------



@ asdkj1740 , is your Z390-F a review sample or did you buy it?


hardwareinfo NL has the Onsemi NCP302045 powerstage for STRIX Z390-E as well (see https://nl.hardware.info/product/487307/asus-rog-strix-z390-e-gaming/specificaties), so I don't know whether to change the chart yet. As I said, unless something is awfully wrong I'm probably not going to change it until next week's NDA (19th).




Prospector said:


> Can someone help me with my ultimate dilemma between Z390 Phantom 6 and Aorus Elite? Which one would you choose for higher chance of getting a good overclock? I like them both but Phantom 6 has more Oc features while Aorus Elite has a bit better vrms i think.


There's a really low difference in price between the Aorus Elite / Pro and Phantom Gaming 6?


The only OC features the Phantom Gaming 6 has the Elite doesn't is the heatpipe and debug LED as far as I know. The Aorus Pro has a minimal price difference (~$10) to the Elite, so that is the board that is the "sweet spot" I guess. 



You have to mindful that the Phantom Gaming 6 is a downgraded Z370 K6 , since it's using the same components with a UPI9521 PWM instead of the IR35201. There's other things that aren't visible, such as the thicker PCB Gigabyte is using with more copper in it.




cletus-cassidy said:


> Looks like only a single 8 pin cpu power plug?


That wouldn't be my concern honestly , last time around on Z370 Supermicro had a power limit that it would hit with the slightest overclocking despite having a relatively decent VRM


If it's 6x 50A Infineon powerstages it's _probably_ around the STRIX Z390-I in capability (i.e. midrange)


----------



## GreedyMuffin

Cyph3r said:


> Some further testing. Initially I didn't want to go further than 4.7GHz as I was convinced my CPU was a dud - on my ASRock Z370 Taichi, my CPU would fall over at 5GHz even all the way up to 1.35v.
> 
> HOWEVER!
> 
> I've gone to 5GHz with 1.32v set in the BIOS. The real voltage seems to hover around 1.30v, and drops to 1.27v under load (this is with "Level 7" LLC). The BIOS describes the LLC as Level 1 having the most vdroop and Level 7 having the least. However this is more vdroop than I would like - I hope it's just due to immature BIOS. There is a "Level 8" option which I haven't tried - scared to because nowhere references it!
> 
> More interestingly, even with the voltage dropping to 1.27v I've so far done about 20 mins of P95 (on my Taichi board it would fall over in seconds). Was my Taichi board a dud?
> 
> After 20 mins of P95, 5GHz @ 1.32v (1.27v real load), the VRM temp sensor has reported a max of 47c (33c on idle). The VRM heatsinks seem to be doing a really good job?
> 
> Regarding power draw - I used to use the 8700k: Enhanced Sensors for the "CPU Package Power". However HWINFO (even the latest beta version) seems stuck at 11w no matter what and I can't see the other sensors you mentioned.
> 
> According to the ASUS BIOS, my 8700k is "80% Sil Quality", my NH-D15S currently scores "176 pts" (apparently 140-150pts is a "good" air cooler and 160pts+ is customer WC. I assume because I'm delidded it thinks my cooler is better than it is? I don't know) and I can't remember what the predicted speeds and voltages were specifically (it changes when you change the core ratio) but when I first saw them I laughed cause of how low they were (remember my Taichi couldn't OC this CPU for crap). But lo and behold... it seems really accurate.
> 
> *EDIT*
> 
> So I looked at the AI optimised overclocking, super simple, uses the predictions to set an OC (so the OC can dynamically change boot to boot depending on temperatures and what not). They say you can use the AI options to set a predicted OC and then you can manually enter those settings to lock it in. The predictions are based on P95 small FFTs according to the BIOS.
> 
> APPARENTLY, my CPU can do 5.1GHz AVX load at 1.33v which I REALLY didn't believe, but figured I'd test it out.
> 
> I set 1.36v (1.35 real and drops to 1.30 under load)... and well, it's been running P95 for 10 mins so far, VRM temps have hit 51c. I'm honestly amazed. I know 10 mins is hardly a proof of stability, but 5GHz @ 1.35v would fail instantly on my Z370 Taichi, so the fact I'm doing 5.1GHz at 1.3v is blowing my mind right now.





AlphaC said:


> There was probably something really wrong with your Z370 Taichi or its BIOS settings probably. There's plenty of delid i7-8700Ks on Z370 Taichis pushing 5.2GHz. Do you remember if you had the Fairchild or Sinopower one?
> 
> 4.9-5.0GHz is a really average overclock on Coffee Lake if you have delid , maybe AVX offset higher than 2 is required if you don't have VRM cooling or your LLC settings are whack (wouldn't surprise me if it was a bugged BIOS).
> 
> 
> Another alternative is the extra V_Droop is actually helping you on your new board as the chip is less power hungry as a result.
> 
> 
> Seems to be a good result regardless if you are truly stable (i7-8700k hex core max current limit per Intel spec is 138A) so right now you're definitely under 180W or something around there.
> 
> 
> https://www.intel.com/content/www/u...core/8th-gen-core-family-datasheet-vol-1.html
> (page 127 of 143)


My Z370 takes a delidded 5.3 ghz 8700K without issues. Been benching at 5.4 multiple times with 1.45V..


----------



## Prospector

So which one you would choose? 🙂 The price difference is 15£ here in Uk. If its a downgraded version of K6 then maybe I will go for gigabyte because my friend wasn't full satisfied with z370 K6, he had some ram issues (not reading 3200mhz i think) and can't make the 8700k at 5Gzh stable even with 1.38V! (delided)


----------



## marcolisi

I think after all I might go for the Asus Maximus XI Apex for the Core i9-9900K . 

Are they selling any water cooling system for it ?

What case would be needed to fit this pc in ?


----------



## vvoid

So maybe this was already brought up in this endless thread, but I want to ask anyway. It's about the difference/decision between Gigabyte Aorus Master or Ultra/Pro/Elite and Asus Hero.

What I don't understand within Gigaybte's range is why the Master has 6 doublers _without_ current balancing (IR3599), in contrast to the Ultra/Pro/Elite, which all employ 6x ISL6617 doublers. How would the Master's VRM be superior to Ultra/Pro/Elite?
Ok, the Master has IR35201 power stages which are probably a little more efficient in general than these SiC634 on Ultra/Pro/Elite, but on the other hand SiC634 is rated for higher max current (50A vs 40A). The datasheets are not directly comparable, at least with my amateurish understanding, and it looks to me that SiC634 will do just fine within the expected operating range of maybe max. 12A per phase in a heavy OC, non-LN2, scenario.

And where does the Hero fit in here? Only 8 phases according to the list on Hardwareluxx and without doublers? This can't be correct, can it? Is it really 4x2 in parallel?
But anyhow, 8 phases equate to 19A per phase in the example above and the SiC639 power stage is very similar to SiC634, marginally more efficient, but really the same. 19A per phase still is ok efficiency-wise, but with only 8 chips vs. 12 on Gigaybte models, temperatures should be significantly higher. Considering this and taking the Hero's steep price tag in to account, I'm really wondering why would I choose the Hero?


----------



## Telstar

marcolisi said:


> I think after all I might go for the Asus Maximus XI Apex for the Core i9-9900K .


Then you are in for a long wait. It's not even announced.


----------



## tostitobandito

I think the Extreme has more or less replaced the Apex this time around. Dunno if they're going to release an Apex later. What would it have that the Extreme doesn't?


----------



## HKPolice

asdkj1740 said:


> i would say the aorus master's vrm are much more capable than our expectation.
> the f3 launch bios on aorus mobo do not support the new user interface.
> more importantly i can confirm that the the latest f5 bios support ddr4 manual overclocking, i can now be able to overclock the ddr4 beyond the xmp rated frequency. i try the adata xpg d41 3600c17 8*2 overclocking to 4000c19-25-25-45 @ 1.35v vccio and 1.35v vccsa and 1.5v ddr4 without any problem. those voltages are much more higher than it should be/ needed to be, i just wanted to exclude insufficient voltages problem.
> 
> 
> the aorus master really supprise me in every aspect.
> z370 gaming 7 need a fan to suppress the vrm temp under 100c, while z390 aorus master easily handle 230w @ 1.35v without any heatsink mounted on the vrm nor active cooling. mattewh should not just post the vrm temp test on 8700k at stock, the mobo is insane.
> and gigabyte finally fixes the ddr4 manual oc problem at least on aorus master, which is totally unexpected.


GB Z370 Gaming 7 has a design defect with the VRM heatsink. The gap between the left sink & mosfets is too big so it does not make physical contact which is why some people are reporting high VRM temps when overclocking. The solution is to either sand the standoffs to narrow the gap or insert copper spacers between the thermal pad & heatsink.

I inserted copper spacers for my board and VRM temps dropped from ~90C to max of 60C. I've posted this solution elsewhere before and other users got the same results.


----------



## asdkj1740

HKPolice said:


> GB Z370 Gaming 7 has a design defect with the VRM heatsink. The gap between the left sink & mosfets is too big so it does not make physical contact which is why some people are reporting high VRM temps when overclocking. The solution is to either sand the standoffs to narrow the gap or insert copper spacers between the thermal pad & heatsink.
> 
> I inserted copper spacers for my board and VRM temps dropped from ~90C to max of 60C. I've posted this solution elsewhere before and other users got the same results.


we are gigabyte 1.5mm squad!


----------



## AlphaC

The people over at tistory seem to be implementing a_ sort of _VRM chart https://hwtips.tistory.com/2458


titled _Compare Intel Z370 / Z390 main board power and main specifications_

What is interesting is that ASUS' "MIL" capacitors are supposedly 5K hour rated APAQ capacitors.




-----


Asian (Japan) current pricing:
https://www.ark-pc.co.jp/search/?key=z390


Spoiler



ROG MAXIMUS XI HERO (WI-FI) 41,904円
MEG Z390 ACE 39,938円
Z390 AORUS MASTER 37,778円
Z390 Taichi 36,698円
ROG STRIX Z390-F GAMING 28,944円
Z390 Phantom Gaming-ITX/ac 27,864円
PRIME Z390-A 27,864円
MPG Z390 GAMING PRO CARBON 26,546円
Z390 Extreme4 25,704円
Z390 AORUS PRO 25,574円 <--- 
MPG Z390 GAMING EDGE AC 23,738円
Z390 AORUS ELITE 19,742円



https://www.dospara.co.jp/5shopping/search.php?ft=z390&gosearch=検索


Spoiler



ROG MAXIMUS XI HERO (WI-FI) 38,800円 
MEG Z390 ACE 36,980円 
Z390 AORUS MASTER 34,980円
Z390 Taichi 33,980円
ROG STRIX Z390-F GAMING 26,800円
Z390 Phantom Gaming-ITX/ac 25,800円
PRIME Z390-A 25,800円
MPG Z390 GAMING PRO CARBON 24,580円
Z390 Extreme4 23,800円
Z390 AORUS PRO 23,680円 <--- 
MPG Z390 GAMING EDGE AC 21,980円
Z390 AORUS ELITE 18,280円




https://shop.tsukumo.co.jp/search/go?w=z390&ts=&af=


Spoiler



ROG MAXIMUS XI HERO (WI-FI) *¥41,904* 
MEG Z390 ACE *¥39,938*
Z390 AORUS MASTER *¥37,778*
Z390 Taichi *¥36,698*
STRIX Z390-F GAMING *¥28,944*

PRIME Z390-A *¥27,864*
Z390 Phantom Gaming-ITX/ac *¥27,864*
MPG Z390 GAMING PRO CARBON *¥26,546*
Z390 Extreme4 *¥25,704*
Z390 AORUS PRO *25,574 *<---
MPG Z390 GAMING EDGE AC *¥23,738*
Z390 AORUS Elite *¥19,742*




https://www.pc-koubou.jp/products/list.php?category_ids=&name=z390


Spoiler



MEG Z390 ACE 36,980円
Z390 Taichi 33,980円
ROG STRIX Z390-F GAMING 26,800円
Z390 Phantom Gaming-ITX/ac 25,800円
PRIME Z390-A 25,146円
MPG Z390 GAMING PRO CARBON 24,580円
Z390 Extreme4 23,800円
Z390 AORUS PRO 23,680円
Z390 AORUS ELITE 18,280円




Korean pricing:



http://www.joyzen.co.kr/search/?skey=z390


Spoiler



ROG MAXIMUS XI EXTREME *684,000*원
ROG MAXIMUS XI FORMULA iBORA *592,120*원
ROG MAXIMUS XI HERO (WI-FI AC) *483,000*원
ROG MAXIMUS XI HERO (WI-FI AC) iBORA *469,500*원
ROG MAXIMUS XI HERO iBORA *449,590*원
AORUS MASTER *419,000*원
AORUS Master *395,000*원 (listed twice)

ROG STRIX Z390-E GAMING GAMING IBORA* 378,320*원
AORUS Ultra *365,000*원
AORUS Ultra *355,000*원 (listed twice)

Taichi *347,000*원

Taichi *345,000*원
Pro Carbon *309,000*원
ROG STRIX Z390-F GAMING IBORA* 306,010*원
AORUS PRO WIFI *299,000*원 <---

Edge AC *269,000*원
AORUS PRO *279,000*원 <---

PRIME Z390-A *277,720*원
PRIME Z390-A iBORA *264,090*원
Extreme4 *242,000*원 
Extreme4 *241,000*원 (listed twice)

AORUS Elite *239,000*원


----------



## F-man4

tostitobandito said:


> I think the Extreme has more or less replaced the Apex this time around. Dunno if they're going to release an Apex later. What would it have that the Extreme doesn't?


Why not Gene replacing Apex?
Lots of things match the style.
Due to the following reason, this MB suits for ATX chassis more than its mATX form also makes it more Apex.
- Gene's PCIe x16 on 2nd Slot also makes it have a BAD VGA air-cooling on mATX/3-Slot-mATX cases because 3-Slot-VGA/2-Slot-VGA has no space for the air intake, especially with PSU-on-bottom chassis.


----------



## GBT-MatthewH

Cyph3r said:


> @AlphaC - Do you think the Aorus Master is a much better board than the Maximus XI Hero? Specs wise the Aorus Master seems to be a much better choice and Asus' seeming lack of confidence with 8 core chips is off putting. I really don't like the BIOS of GB boards though. @GBT-MatthewH Dare to offer some insight? How does the Aorus Master VRM setup compare to the Max XI Hero? Is the Aorus Master capable of handling high 9900k OC's without breaking a sweat?


No sweat. My guess is we come in 10C cooler than Hero, give or take. Sorry for the bad picture but heres the master vs a similar competitor without heatsinks using a high core count CPU. The delta should get bigger with heatsinks because, well, we have fins 

(Master is the lower one)


----------



## marcolisi

Hi guys, i was thinking about the Apex because supporting faster RAM .

https://www.anandtech.com/show/13407/intel-z390-motherboard-overview-every-motherboard-analyzed/17


----------



## Tennobanzai

I just updated my BIOS and now I notice there's options for GT Frequency and VCore Frequency. Both are defaulted to 300K. Is this something I should disable or adjust?


----------



## Cyph3r

GBT-MatthewH said:


> No sweat. My guess is we come in 10C cooler than Hero, give or take. Sorry for the bad picture but heres the master vs a similar competitor without heatsinks using a high core count CPU. The delta should get bigger with heatsinks because, well, we have fins
> 
> (Master is the lower one)


Thanks Matthew! Can you reveal the frequency/voltage of this "high core count" cpu? 

What about the actual setup of the VRMs themselves? The Max XI Hero uses 8 x SiC639, the Aorus Master uses 12 x IR3553 right? How do these setups compare - because the Aorus Master looks just straight up better in every regard on paper (inc price).

I jumped on the Max XI Hero board because well Asus' BIOS is just, well, right. And I really missed it being on my ASRock board. I really don't like the Gigabyte Z390 BIOS (please work with GN/Buildzoid/anyone to make it what it should be) but I'm willing to deal with it if the board itself is better.
@AlphaC I've re-opened my email thread with ASRock explaining to them (their customer support is really nice to be fair to them). Waiting to hear back my RMA options for this board.


----------



## asdkj1740

how to destroy aorus master vrm before blowing up the cpu?
ambient temp was about 25c. 
the aorus master bios has more oc settings than the ud/gamingx bios, please guide me to max out all these oc settings in order to blow up the aorus master vrm mattewh, thanks.
and i request a 360mm aio lol.
aorus master is savage.

PS. i ran the prime95 sfft for more than 20mins, the vrm temp held up at ~80c.
but i accidentially closed the hwinfo so i did not have the >20mins screen cap of hwinfo64.


----------



## Cyph3r

asdkj1740 said:


> how to destroy aorus master vrm before blowing up the cpu?


Judging by those temps your CPU is going to die before the VRMs on the Master does. Impressive.


----------



## eric98k

Anandtech updated Z390 VRM list: 

Supermicro C9Z390-PGW: PXE1610C (6+1) + PXM1310C (3+1), TDA21232 (?)
Supermicro C9Z390-CG-IW: PXE1520 (5+2), TDA21232 (?)
Supermicro C9Z390-CG: MP2949A (6) + MP2940A (2), MP86945 (6) + MP86908 (2)


----------



## asdkj1740

ud/gamingx vs aorus master
10*(4c06+4c09) vs 12*ir3553
ud/gamingx with heatsink vs aorus master no heatsink vs aorus master with heatsink
100c/103c vs 81c vs 53c

i ran ~30min more for the aorus master with heatsink to confirm the madness...

ps. i wont recommand gaming x over ud, trust me, i will disscus the gaming x later after getting response from gigabyte.
go buy ud to save ~20usd if what you care is the vrm only.


----------



## Hackslash

is that an 9900k?
iam very interested to know what package power @ 5ghz (avx or fma3) it pulls


----------



## Dymblos

What about Master vs Ultra ? Ultra is very similar to Master 
i want to know the vrm temp with the same OC


----------



## bastian

Dymblos said:


> What about Master vs Ultra ? Ultra is very similar to Master
> i want to know the vrm temp with the same OC


There are screenshots from Matt back a few pages. The temp difference between Master and Ultra is not huge. However, Master has better power delivery and more BIOS options.


----------



## F-man4

asdkj1740 said:


> ud/gamingx vs aorus master
> 10*(4c06+4c09) vs 12*ir3553
> ud/gamingx with heatsink vs aorus master no heatsink vs aorus master with heatsink
> 100c/103c vs 81c vs 53c
> 
> i ran ~30min more for the aorus master with heatsink to confirm the madness...
> 
> ps. i wont recommand gaming x over ud, trust me, i will disscus the gaming x later after getting response from gigabyte.
> go buy ud to save ~20usd if what you care is the vrm only.


So IR3553 isn't that bad but OnSemi is really trustless, right?


----------



## et7878789

hi everyone 

I have a Z370F+8700K delid+H150i+Coollaboratory Liquid Ultra
AVX=0，Level＝7，RAM=3000MHz(16x2)

all clock V-manual V-r15 Temp-r15 R15 Temp-FPU
5.0G 1.216V 1.232V 50°C 1630 68°C
5.1G 1.255V 1.280V 55°C 1665 70°C
5.2G 1.300V 1.328V 57°C 1697 75°C
5.3G 1.360V 1.392V 61°C 1725 80°C
5.4G 1.420V 1.456V 68°C 1759 no test
V-manual+0.06V can pass FPU

so i alway set 8700K V [email protected](6C12T)

I want to know M X [email protected](8C8T) this combination VRM is OK? 
Should i buy a new MB M11H?(I already have M10H)

Z370F ASP1400BT 4x2 SiRA14DP+SiRA12DP ???
M10H ASP1400BT 4x2 BSG0812ND 8x50A
M11H ASP1400CTB 4x2 ??? 8x50A 

Z370








Z390
https://forum.gamer.com.tw/C.php?bsn=60030&snA=505686


----------



## et7878789

hi everyone 

I have a Z370F+8700K delid+H150i+Coollaboratory Liquid Ultra
AVX=0，Level＝7，RAM=3000MHz(16x2)

all clock V-manual V-r15 Temp-r15 R15 Temp-FPU
5.0G 1.216V 1.232V 50°C 1630 68°C
5.1G 1.255V 1.280V 55°C 1665 70°C
5.2G 1.300V 1.328V 57°C 1697 75°C
5.3G 1.360V 1.392V 61°C 1725 80°C
5.4G 1.420V 1.456V 68°C 1759 no test
V-manual+0.06V can pass FPU

so i alway set 8700K V [email protected](6C12T)

I want to know M X [email protected](8C8T) this combination VRM is OK? 
Should i buy a new MB M11H?(I already have M10H)

Z370F ASP1400BT 4x2 SiRA14DP+SiRA12DP ???
M10H ASP1400BT 4x2 BSG0812ND 8x50A
M11H ASP1400CTB 4x2 ???  8x50A 

Z370


----------



## Bandaidsrmyjob

Many pages here...

Which board has best vrm and power delivery? Price not an issue. I'm upgrading from 2500k so anything is a huge leap for me. TIA


----------



## Knjaz136

Bandaidsrmyjob said:


> Many pages here...
> 
> Which board has * best vrm and power delivery? Price not an issue.* I'm upgrading from 2500k so anything is a huge leap for me. TIA


Z390 Aorus Extreme and MSI MEG Godlike. Those 2 in the top.
https://www.overclock.net/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=223640&d=1539304287


Link to the post itself:
https://www.overclock.net/forum/6-i...0-vrm-discussion-thread-216.html#post27657582


----------



## eric98k

Bandaidsrmyjob said:


> Which board has best vrm and power delivery?


EVGA Z390 Dark


----------



## Ichirou

Hi, just curious about what Z390 board I should grab that could power an i7-8086k at 5 GHz all-core.
I've been reading that the XI Hero is the cream of the crop for overclocking so far, but I'd like more opinions.

Price is somewhat of an issue, so if you could recommend something that's not super overpriced, that would be nice.
I basically have no use for most of the features on a Z390 motherboard, don't ever plan to SLI, and would like at least five USB ports.

Thanks!


----------



## Cyph3r

Ichirou said:


> I've been reading that the XI Hero is the cream of the crop for overclocking so far, but I'd like more opinions.


The XI Hero is certainly ok, but I wouldn't call it cream of the crop. The high end Gigabyte boards seem to be offering the best VRM setups for the price.


----------



## eric98k

ASUS Prime Z390M-Plus Review
PWM: ASP1400CTB
VCC: 8x (4C10B+4C06B) in parallel 
VCCGT: 1x (4C10B+2x4C06B)


----------



## asdkj1740

eric98k said:


> ASUS Prime Z390M-Plus Review
> PWM: ASP1400CTB
> VCC: 8x (4C10B+4C06B) in parallel
> VCCGT: 1x (4C10B+2x4C06B)


9 drivers in total.


----------



## zGunBLADEz

asdkj1740 said:


> ud/gamingx vs aorus master
> 10*(4c06+4c09) vs 12*ir3553
> ud/gamingx with heatsink vs aorus master no heatsink vs aorus master with heatsink
> 100c/103c vs 81c vs 53c
> 
> i ran ~30min more for the aorus master with heatsink to confirm the madness...
> 
> ps. i wont recommand gaming x over ud, trust me, i will disscus the gaming x later after getting response from gigabyte.
> go buy ud to save ~20usd if what you care is the vrm only.


no need to confirm thats a 9900K i just know XD 

like i said lol hot as hell even soldered and no "easy" chance of delidding XD
only at 1.35v XD but everybody blessing intel for the soldered XD 

well, thats the sole reason of it lol


----------



## eric98k

Gigabyte Z390 Overclocking Guide (PDF)


----------



## tostitobandito

Cyph3r said:


> The XI Hero is certainly ok, but I wouldn't call it cream of the crop. The high end Gigabyte boards seem to be offering the best VRM setups for the price.



Yeah there's certainly other boards out there with better power delivery than the Hero from Gigabyte/Asrock/MSI, as well as the Extreme/Gene from Asus. That said, I prefer the Asus BIOS and some of their other features which is why I went with them. I also don't have a custom loop or LN2 so the VRM difference between the Hero and something like the Godlike is probably meaningless to me since I won't be pushing enough power for it to matter.


----------



## AlphaC

~250W confirmed at 5GHZ AVX?

My guesstimate wasn't bad eh? 




Attach image looks to be broken again.




Spoiler


----------



## GTANY

eric98k said:


> Gigabyte Z390 Overclocking Guide (PDF)


Thank you.

Interesting since I bought a Gigabyte Z390 Aorus Pro a few days ago and I never used Gigabyte boards.

Nevertheless, I would have liked a more torough guide, in particular concerning the voltages : what are VCCIO, VCC sustained, VCCPLL and when are the overvoltages applied (CPU core voltage control) ?

Indeed, when overclocking, I don't like letting voltages on Auto since the auto values can be too high.

So if someone can answer me concerning the voltages, it is welcome.

+1 for Gigabyte for such a guide, it is really an added value.


----------



## Ichirou

AlphaC said:


> ~250W confirmed at 5GHZ AVX?
> 
> My guesstimate wasn't bad eh?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Attach image looks to be broken again.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler


Seeing temperatures of 90~100C makes me scream internally D:


----------



## Hackslash

AlphaC said:


> ~250W confirmed at 5GHZ AVX?
> 
> My guesstimate wasn't bad eh?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Attach image looks to be broken again.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler



seems about right.

my 8700K @ 5ghz @ 1,26V AVX pulls about 186 Watts.


----------



## ADRO3

Ichirou said:


> Seeing temperatures of 90~100C makes me scream internally D:


Thats even using Bitspower custom loop kit

REKT!


----------



## cletus-cassidy

AlphaC said:


> ~250W confirmed at 5GHZ AVX?
> 
> My guesstimate wasn't bad eh?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Attach image looks to be broken again.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler


I ordered that exact board (Master) this morning. Besides the huge power draw and high CPU temps, I'm a bit spooked that the VRM are at 90 degrees. I know, I know, air cooling, etc. But was hoping it would be lower based on the VRM upgrades they built in this generation.


----------



## doom26464

So seems as 5.0 with avx on 9900k is the norm and 5.3ghz if you have no avx workloads. 

Hrmm that is toasty hot though. Have to see how a 240mm AIO cooler does. May have to upgrade.

Also in the guide why do they reccomend setting the TJmax to 110c??


----------



## Robbært

eric98k said:


> Gigabyte Z390 Overclocking Guide (PDF)


thanks, most interesting part
5.0GHz
91C DrMOS VRM 12+1 in unknown configuration
192A
234W
They had other screenshots, with lesser numbers at 5.3GHz OC, but it very good example of what motherboards should be capable to OC new 9900K 8/16 CPU.

Is it too early to say all non-DrMOS boards not compatible with 9900K OC?
I don't think so.

now most funny part:
There no point to buy Z390 if you not plan to OC.
Dual N-MOS cost near 0.5$ (idk about driver, can be anything up to $0.5)
new DrMOSes cost $0.9-$2 per, TDA chips can be more expensive.
Manufacturers tried to save $12 per board like we not paying it after all.


----------



## zGunBLADEz

AlphaC said:


> ~250W confirmed at 5GHZ AVX?
> 
> My guesstimate wasn't bad eh?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Attach image looks to be broken again.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler


poor poor lol
thats only at less than 1.3v i guaranteed you that avx cpu would be around 300w+ or even more
i seen a 8700k pull 220w all by itself


----------



## zGunBLADEz

doom26464 said:


> So seems as 5.0 with avx on 9900k is the norm and 5.3ghz if you have no avx workloads.
> 
> Hrmm that is toasty hot though. Have to see how a 240mm AIO cooler does. May have to upgrade.
> 
> Also in the guide why do they reccomend setting the TJmax to 110c??


they recommend that on x299 for example. But 2066 chips are more robust than this chips like miles head robust i would not touch that lol


----------



## AlphaC

cletus-cassidy said:


> I ordered that exact board (Master) this morning. Besides the huge power draw and high CPU temps, I'm a bit spooked that the VRM are at 90 degrees. I know, I know, air cooling, etc. But was hoping it would be lower based on the VRM upgrades they built in this generation.


_cletus-cassidy_ , considering that the Z370 midrange boards were hitting over 100°C with i7-8700K with <5GHz (typically 4.8Ghz with AVX offset 2) in prime95 small FFT I'd say it's an alright result , not in comparison to other Z390 boards but in general. Small FFT is not a real workload in that it isn't GPU/memory/disk/chipset bound so much as a real workload. Also the CPU cooling was a bitspower cooling loop per the guide's notes with no mention of how the airflow was setup. Additionally it depends on how well the SuperIO monitoring chip (ITE8688 in this instance) + sensor implementation is set up. This means any typical user with a 240 AIO isn't going to achieve the same results.

We currently don't have a full comparison of the competitor boards so I'd be skeptical of how well/mediocre that board is doing. When you only have one datapoint and it's a synthetic it isn't enough to draw a conclusion. If were something lighter such as OCCT non-AVX , Cinebench, Blender (AVX), any game, or AIDA64 I'd be alarmed.

Also see:
https://thetechrevolutionist.com/20...i9-9900k-with-gigabyte-z390-aorus-master.html



> To even make the Core i9 9900K possible, Intel had to undo their mistake of placing sub-par thermal interface material between the processor core and the heatspreader. This time, they are using a Solder Thermal Interface Material (STIM) to improve heat dissipation and increase core clocks. Based on our tests, the CPU ran at a *idle temperature of 30 degree Celsius* (at a controlled room temperature of 24 degree Celsius) and at a *load temperature of 75 degree Celsius* (during Cinebench Benchmark). Also, we measured the power consumption of the whole system to be at about *43W in idle* and *330W when on load* (Cinebench).


Seems the CPU itself is going to be at least 75°C and that's with a 280mm AIO (Cryorig A80 280mm AIO Hybrid Liquid Cooler) that has an airflow fan for VRM.



----

Robbært , it's not too early to say that the powerpak using boards with less than 10 phases and doublers aren't recommended for AVX loads if you want to overclock your i9 CPU. As I mentioned earlier, those boards are limited to around 87-88% efficiency not including inductor/capacitor/PCB at that sort of load and that's with 10V for V_Gs and 300kHz (most powerstages are normalized to 500kHz). The ESR (equivalent series resistance) on cheaper capacitors is higher also.

Whether the i9-9900K and i7-9700K have similar current loads remains to be seen (from what I saw in sisoft database it's quite close in power an the power range is around 170-210W), but anyone planning on buying a low mid-range board *should do their due diligence* and double-check their vendor return policies. It's outright reckless for anyone buying a $500 CPU to not wait for reviews on those <$180 boards.

In short that means anyone buying a Tomahawk or a STRIX-H or TUF is better off waiting (also why buy ASUS Z390 boards without auto OC?). We also don't know how well the contact pressure fares on the Gigabyte Z390 lineup below the Aorus Elite which means that it could turn out to be mediocre for this level of load. The Z390 UD has been covered in this thread already and it hit 100°C with i7-8700k pushing anything over 1.35V in Prime95 small FFT. The Z390 Pro Carbon and Edge AC are largely going to come down to the PWM implementation and heatsink capability (there's a low side mosfet RDS(on) advantage for them but the PWM implementation may not be optimal); the Extreme4 and Phantom Gaming 6 probably are going to suffer due to the PWM controller change so I'd be wary of them at this point.

What I do know is that if you plan on replicating the AORUS overclock guide on their ITX board the 6 phases will be pushing about 32A each (190A) which is well above what I would consider a good idea. You'd have to dissipate at least 4W of heat per phase : with any mediocre VRM heatsink you'd be over 120°C. The same goes for the Asrock Phantom ITX board with its 5x ISL99227B 60A powerstage implementation in terms of power dissipation, but the ISL99227B has a thermally enhanced package so it comes down to the heatsinking capabilities and the heatpipe. Also I believe the power limit is something around 200W on that board so 250W really isn't even possible without BIOS mods.

-----------------

SiC639 on Formula
https://www.hardwareluxx.de/index.p...le-ausstattung-inkl-5-gbit-s-lan.html?start=1


Power/thermal throttle on Z370-I STRIX (100°C , i7-8700K at 4.8Ghz AVX)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YiISL1IT6FQ


----------



## cletus-cassidy

AlphaC said:


> _cletus-cassidy_ , considering that the Z370 midrange boards were hitting over 100°C with i7-8700K with <5GHz (typically 4.8Ghz with AVX offset 2) in prime95 small FFT I'd say it's an alright result , not in comparison to other Z390 boards but in general. Small FFT is not a real workload in that it isn't GPU/memory/disk/chipset bound so much as a real workload. Also the CPU cooling was a bitspower cooling loop per the guide's notes with no mention of how the airflow was setup. Additionally it depends on how well the SuperIO monitoring chip (ITE8688 in this instance) + sensor implementation is set up. This means any typical user with a 240 AIO isn't going to achieve the same results.
> 
> We currently don't have a full comparison of the competitor boards so I'd be skeptical of how well/mediocre that board is doing. When you only have one datapoint and it's a synthetic it isn't enough to draw a conclusion. If were something lighter such as OCCT non-AVX , Cinebench, Blender (AVX), any game, or AIDA64 I'd be alarmed.
> 
> Also see:
> https://thetechrevolutionist.com/20...i9-9900k-with-gigabyte-z390-aorus-master.html
> 
> Seems the CPU itself is going to be at least 75°C and that's with a 280mm AIO (Cryorig A80 280mm AIO Hybrid Liquid Cooler) that has an airflow fan for VRM.
> 
> 
> 
> ----
> 
> Robbært , it's not too early to say that the powerpak using boards with less than 10 phases and doublers aren't recommended for AVX loads if you want to overclock your i9 CPU. As I mentioned earlier, those boards are limited to around 87-88% efficiency not including inductor/capacitor/PCB at that sort of load and that's with 10V for V_Gs and 300kHz (most powerstages are normalized to 500kHz). The ESR (equivalent series resistance) on cheaper capacitors is higher also.
> 
> Whether the i9-9900K and i7-9700K have similar current loads remains to be seen (from what I saw in sisoft database it's quite close in power an the power range is around 170-210W), but anyone planning on buying a low mid-range board *should do their due diligence* and double-check their vendor return policies. It's outright reckless for anyone buying a $500 CPU to not wait for reviews on those <$180 boards.
> 
> In short that means anyone buying a Tomahawk or a STRIX-H or TUF is better off waiting (also why buy ASUS Z390 boards without auto OC?). We also don't know how well the contact pressure fares on the Gigabyte Z390 lineup below the Aorus Elite which means that it could turn out to be mediocre for this level of load. The Z390 UD has been covered in this thread already and it hit 100°C with i7-8700k pushing anything over 1.35V in Prime95 small FFT. The Z390 Pro Carbon and Edge AC are largely going to come down to the PWM implementation and heatsink capability (there's a low side mosfet RDS(on) advantage for them but the PWM implementation may not be optimal); the Extreme4 and Phantom Gaming 6 probably are going to suffer due to the PWM controller change so I'd be wary of them at this point.
> 
> What I do know is that if you plan on replicating the AORUS overclock guide on their ITX board the 6 phases will be pushing about 32A each (190A) which is well above what I would consider a good idea. You'd have to dissipate at least 4W of heat per phase : with any mediocre VRM heatsink you'd be over 120°C. The same goes for the Asrock Phantom ITX board with its 5x ISL99227B 60A powerstage implementation in terms of power dissipation, but the ISL99227B has a thermally enhanced package so it comes down to the heatsinking capabilities and the heatpipe. Also I believe the power limit is something around 200W on that board so 250W really isn't even possible without BIOS mods.
> 
> -----------------
> 
> SiC639 on Formula
> https://www.hardwareluxx.de/index.p...le-ausstattung-inkl-5-gbit-s-lan.html?start=1
> 
> 
> Power/thermal throttle on Z370-I STRIX (100°C , i7-8700K at 4.8Ghz AVX)
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YiISL1IT6FQ


Agreed we don't have enough data and sorry if it sounded like I thought the sky was falling. I run a custom loop, but Maximus Formula hasn't been in stock for a week or two and Aorus Master looks to have one of the most robust VRMs for air cooling. My comment came from the fact that I was hoping I could easily run my system at 5ghz+ without watercooling the VRM, but that appears to be riskier than anticipated.


----------



## inutile

Hi guys, a couple of pages ago I said I would take some pics of my Maximus Code. I got around to tearing it down today and posted an album here:

https://imgur.com/a/E5zLNZJ

Hope this helps!


----------



## doom26464

I knew an 8 core intel cpu would be power hungry but man oh man. Good thing these things launch right in time for winter, ill just heat my house with it. 


Summer time will require its own profile/overclock though. I could see people dieing of heat stroke at there pc's


----------



## Abaidor

doom26464 said:


> I knew an 8 core intel cpu would be power hungry but man oh man. Good thing these things launch right in time for winter, ill just heat my house with it.
> 
> 
> Summer time will require its own profile/overclock though. I could see people dieing of heat stroke at there pc's


Summer time in Mediterranean countries like mine will be 4.6-4,8Ghz with custom loops if you want silence. This is approaching HEDT CPUs.


----------



## doom26464

I feel leaving it stock and leaving the 5.0 turbo on 2 cores and 4.7 all core do its work for the summer might be best. Hopefully even at stock its not too silly. 

Winter time I dont care ill run some fans out of the pc room and dump the hot air into the rest of the house and heat it.


----------



## Danesh_italiano

Annnnndd none of the manufacturers made a MICRO ATX board with gud VRMs that can handle 5Ghz... Those days a "gamer" pc only uses one GPU and one m.2 drive. I want 5Ghz on a small case (fractal define c mini) :'(


----------



## AlphaC

Danesh_italiano said:


> Annnnndd none of the manufacturers made a MICRO ATX board with gud VRMs that can handle 5Ghz... Those days a "gamer" pc only uses one GPU and one m.2 drive. I want 5Ghz on a small case (fractal define c mini) :'(


What do you call the Maximus XI GENE?


----------



## Ichirou

Hi AlphaC, I just read your post on the last page about VRMs and stuff and you definitely know your stuff.
What Z390 mobo can you recommend I get that would work for an i7-8086K at 5 GHz all-core, but also not break the bank?

I know VRMs are important, but I'm also not sure what exactly is the minimum I need. It'll be cooled with an NH-D15.


----------



## Danesh_italiano

AlphaC said:


> What do you call the Maximus XI GENE?


Ehhhhh... hmmm.... A affordable Micro-ATX board. I wouldn't mind paying 200$ for a z390 taichi "mini". Just an z390 taichi smaller with less pci, m.2 and sata. Using a itx board on a micro-atx case seems too weird.


----------



## F-man4

Ichirou said:


> Seeing temperatures of 90~100C makes me scream internally D:


Not only the CPU temperature but also the VRM temperature.
AORUS Master VRM 91℃ on 9900K 8C16T 5GHz AVX!?


----------



## F-man4

>> Maximus XI Gene

1) Bad design for 3-slot VGA card's air cooling on MATX case
2) It's actually M11A more than M11G

3) Personally I don't buy non-HDMI-2.0 115X boards including this


----------



## DarkSnipa

Hi guys is the new MSI Z390I Gaming Edge AC's VRM good enough for a 9900K at stock or a 9700K with a bit of overclocking? I just bought the board from my local store and here is my current finding:


Main VRM PWM: _UPI uP9521p (No idea on the configuration I cannot find datasheet)_
_Vcore and IGPU: __TI 87350D 40A NexFET (7 of these)_
_Memory,__VCCIO and VCCSA: Not sure but two __NIKOS PK612DZ and a NIKOS __P5003QVG are present on the board._


----------



## newls1

ive gone throught and read a hand full of recent pages of information, as im trying to find VRM results for the MSI MEG Z390 ACE board. I bought 1 on launch day and its still sitting untouched in box as im waiting for my pre ordered 9900k to arrive (if ever!) How is the VRM on the MEG ACE board?? hoping it is "Decent" and better then the pro carbon... any input?? Like i said, i read multi pages and found nothing about this board in this thread.. thanks


----------



## zGunBLADEz

Be glad this cpu doesnt have AVX512 even with the tacky i9 branding on it idk wth intel was thinking when he put the i9 on this cpu bcuz of i9 nada. I be laughing people trying to do 50x under avx512 XD


----------



## Robbært

DarkSnipa said:


> Hi guys is the new MSI Z390I Gaming Edge AC's VRM good enough for a 9900K at stock or a 9700K with a bit of overclocking? I just bought the board from my local store and here is my current finding:
> 
> 
> Main VRM PWM: _UPI uP9521p (No idea on the configuration I cannot find datasheet)_
> _Vcore and IGPU: __TI 87350D 40A NexFET (7 of these)_
> _Memory: __NIKOS PK612DZ_
> _VCCIO and VCCSA: Not sure but there is another __NIKOS PK612DZ on the board as well._


it 25A Dual N-MOS, 150A should be enough for some 8700K OC
there no onboard VRM temperature sensor
and with 87350 you have to monitor VRM temperature not go over 80-85C
if you can find a way to constantly watch MOSFET temperatures you can try this board to run 9900k without OC.


----------



## bl4ckdot

Hello,
Just a quick question, I'm sorry if it already has been asked, how does a Formula X handle new CPU ? Is a 9900K at 5Ghz or more for gaming ok on this board ?


----------



## Telstar

nevermind.


----------



## asdkj1740

Robbært said:


> thanks, most interesting part
> 5.0GHz
> 91C DrMOS VRM 12+1 in unknown configuration
> 192A
> 234W
> They had other screenshots, with lesser numbers at 5.3GHz OC, but it very good example of what motherboards should be capable to OC new 9900K 8/16 CPU.
> 
> Is it too early to say all non-DrMOS boards not compatible with 9900K OC?
> I don't think so.
> 
> now most funny part:
> There no point to buy Z390 if you not plan to OC.
> Dual N-MOS cost near 0.5$ (idk about driver, can be anything up to $0.5)
> new DrMOSes cost $0.9-$2 per, TDA chips can be more expensive.
> Manufacturers tried to save $12 per board like we not paying it after all.


i am very i am surprised about the power usage, way too low than my expectation.
if 234w is already enough for 9900k to run without significantly drop of performance, then z390 ud may be able to handle it too. ud and gamingx with active cooling to the vrm definitelycan suck the 9900k.


----------



## asdkj1740

zGunBLADEz said:


> no need to confirm thats a 9900K i just know XD
> 
> like i said lol hot as hell even soldered and no "easy" chance of delidding XD
> only at 1.35v XD but everybody blessing intel for the soldered XD
> 
> well, thats the sole reason of it lol


no it is not, 9900k's supply is too limited even reviewers are hard to get one from aib.
1.35v is alraedy quiet high in fact. 
yes soldered is a must for 8c8t and 8c16t, it is not a gift from intel, it is what intel has to do.

super high end cooling is needed for 9900k and 9700k.
for air cooling, d15 is entry level.
for aio, you better get 280mm for lower noise.
cpu temp is what you should care about first.


----------



## garryrich

Hi guys is the EVGA z370 micro-ATX's VRM good enough for a 9900K at stock or a 9700K with a bit of overclocking? 

here is some data I found:
VRM PWM: IR35201 with IR3599
Vcore mosfet: 8x TDA88240(35A DrMOS,sth like TDA21241)


----------



## et7878789

GIGA PDF P95
[email protected]@5G=(Core Temp:1.2112V/250.2W/243.5W/NA/6.7W/NA /93°C)
[email protected]@5G=(Core Temp:1.3300V/111.9W/104.2W/NA/7.6W/4.1W/72°C)

why 2C+140W? 

some benchmark from china


----------



## zGunBLADEz

et7878789 said:


> GIGA PDF P95
> [email protected]@5G=(Core Temp:1.2112V/250.2W/243.5W/NA/6.7W/NA /93°C)
> [email protected]@5G=(Core Temp:1.3300V/111.9W/104.2W/NA/7.6W/4.1W/72°C)
> 
> why 2C+140W?
> 
> some benchmark from china


wait what>>?? cb @ 55x 2375 multi score??
thats it?


i have done over 2200 on 48x and 49x

but intel ipc and the increases over the years where they went???


the heat question, the 8700k probably wrong watt reported specially at that voltage. They can pull as much as 200w on a moderated overclock under stress testing.
Also heat and watts goes in increments of 2 so ends more more heat and power draw.


----------



## GAN77

Asus Formula XI, Hero XI , Code XI have an identical power system?


----------



## tostitobandito

GAN77 said:


> Asus Formula XI, Hero XI , Code XI have an identical power system?



As far as I know, yes they all have the same VRM's. The Hero and the Code definitely do, and we know since people have them in-hand. I'm not sure we have official confirmation on the Formula, but I think AlphaC's most recent draft tier list says it's the same.


----------



## asdkj1740

GAN77 said:


> Asus Formula XI, Hero XI , Code XI have an identical power system?


yes.


----------



## AlphaC

Ichirou said:


> Hi AlphaC, I just read your post on the last page about VRMs and stuff and you definitely know your stuff.
> What Z390 mobo can you recommend I get that would work for an i7-8086K at 5 GHz all-core, but also not break the bank?
> 
> I know VRMs are important, but I'm also not sure what exactly is the minimum I need. It'll be cooled with an NH-D15.


You didn't specify workload _or where you can buy from_ but anything from truly midrange z390 or anything closer to the higher end of Z370 should do fine.

Boards such as the ROG Hero (z370/Z390), Asus Z390-A / STRIX-E / STRIX-F boards, any of the Aorus Z390 boards (the Pro is a safe bet as it is the same as Ultra in terms of power design and retains the heatpipe), Z370 Gaming 7 if you get one without the heatsink issue (some have a contact issue at the VRM heatsink), Asrock Taichi (z370/z390) for example. All these boards are using at least 8 phases digitally controlled with IR35201 or ISL69138 PWM (i.e. high end , more accurate) and either powerblocks or powerstages rather than older technology less efficient Powerpaks. For outright ease of use, the ASUS Z390 boards probably are easiest due to the new AI overclock software (it identifies silicon quality), but if you're willing to plug in a voltage and multiplier for core ratio and uncore ratio then run a stress test or two (not sure which stress test AI OC uses for stability so manual OC might be more stable) it might not be worth the price premium.

If you're not using AVX instruction-sets (especially AVX2 which is even higher power draw) then the Asrock Z370 K6 has had decent results (it also uses a IR35201 PWM & powerblocks) with hex-cores, whereas the Z390 Phantom Gaming 6 that came after has a new PWM from uPI semiconductor that is used on lower end MSI boards so I don't have much confidence in it. Additionally, the Z390 Phantom Gaming 6 is priced relatively high relative to its predecessor and other competing boards. There's really no other Z370 board than the Gigabyte Z370 Gaming 7 that really stands out vs Z390. It's a testament to the superiority of the Z370 K6 design vs other midrange Z370 boards when every other manufacturer had to ditch their entire mid-range power design for Z390 and Asrock kept theirs , made heatsink bigger, and somehow decided to cheapen the PWM. My biggest complaint with the Z370 K6 overall was the ridiculously outdated IO choices: it has a VGA port and DVI. Right now it's not really as good of a price/performance board due to its end of life status.

There's other boards such as the Z390 Pro Carbon and Z390 Edge AC that haven't been tested yet. We do know that boards such as the Z370 Pro Carbon / Ultra Gaming / STRIX Z370-E / Z370-F are not that great relative to their Z390 counterparts which have been upgraded.



newls1 said:


> ive gone throught and read a hand full of recent pages of information, as im trying to find VRM results for the MSI MEG Z390 ACE board. I bought 1 on launch day and its still sitting untouched in box as im waiting for my pre ordered 9900k to arrive (if ever!) How is the VRM on the MEG ACE board?? hoping it is "Decent" and better then the pro carbon... any input?? Like i said, i read multi pages and found nothing about this board in this thread.. thanks


Definitely better than pro carbon. Pro Carbon has no indication of having doublers so the ripple will be outright worse. Also the Pro carbon has 2 fewer high/low side mosfets.

ACE might perform on the Taichi level thermally but that's only if the heatsink is as good. Also that doesn't account for the switching frequency : the switching frequency on a powerblock or powerstage is typically 500kHz , which is nearly double that of a typical Powerpak implementation (~300kHz).

AFAIK early indications are Z390 Hero > Z390 Taichi this time. (per Tech Yes City)

If I had to take a guess then I would think the z390 Ace performs about as well as a z390 Taichi in terms of thermals but worse in terms of ripple (due to 300kHz default switching frequency vs 500kHz). With 160A output you're looking at anywhere from 1.2 to 2W of heat output per high side fet depending on switching frequency due to the high side fet being a slow switching one.



DarkSnipa said:


> Hi guys is the new MSI Z390I Gaming Edge AC's VRM good enough for a 9900K at stock or a 9700K with a bit of overclocking? I just bought the board from my local store and here is my current finding:
> 
> 
> Main VRM PWM: _UPI uP9521p (No idea on the configuration I cannot find datasheet)_
> _Vcore and IGPU: __TI 87350D 40A NexFET (7 of these)_
> _Memory,__VCCIO and VCCSA: Not sure but two __NIKOS PK612DZ and a NIKOS __P5003QVG are present on the board._


You probably need a fan for anything more than stock. Even supposed stock results on sisoft were pulling 170W - 210W. You really took a risk buying that board if you can't return it since i9 NDA isn't over until Friday.

The NexFETs aren't all for the VCORE so it's likely 6+1. I'd say about 20A-25A per phase is expected, which is around 160-200W since NexFETs are normalized to 1.3V.

It's going to be a similar scenario on all ITX boards although their approaches are different (i.e. Onsemi NCP302045 powerstage on the ASUS one and IR3553 on the Gigabyte Aorus one , also the ASUS/Gigabyte boards use a better PWM). The Asrock Z390 Phantom Gaming ITX has the advantage of a heatpiped heatsink (it uses the PCH heatsink to double the effective heatsink area), better mosfet packaging due to the exposed junction and built in thermal/current monitoring with ISL99227B which reduces the thermal resistance and has more safeties. 

The Z370 Fatal1ty ITX predecessor has been shown to have a 200W power limit if I recall , so the main advantages to the Phantom Gaming ITX are mainly the thermals and the inclusion of Thunderbolt 3 (rather than requiring an add-in card).



bl4ckdot said:


> Hello,
> Just a quick question, I'm sorry if it already has been asked, how does a Formula X handle new CPU ? Is a 9900K at 5Ghz or more for gaming ok on this board ?


If it's for gaming I don't think there will be any issues with either Formula (z370/z390).


----------------
et7878789 , i9-9900K power draw on Gigabyte pdf was in Prime95 AVX not Cinebench 
---------------


GAN77 said:


> Asus Formula XI, Hero XI , Code XI have an identical power system?


Yes as far as we know it is mainly IO and other modifications.


----------



## GAN77

Thanks guys for the answer!


----------



## et7878789

=AlphaC said:


> et7878789 , i9-9900K power draw on Gigabyte pdf was in Prime95 AVX not Cinebench


no,that both data are run P95 Watt. R15 data is BTW.
but 8700K seems run the third test.

i find other 8700K P95 FFT data
[email protected]@5G=(1.2112V/250.2W/93°C)
[email protected]@5G=(1.2960V/195.7W/78°C)

so 2C=+55W:h34r-smi



zGunBLADEz said:


> wait what>>?? cb @ 55x 2375 multi score??
> thats it?
> 
> 
> i have done over 2200 on 48x and 49x
> 
> but intel ipc and the increases over the years where they went???
> 
> 
> the heat question, the 8700k probably wrong watt reported specially at that voltage. They can pull as much as 200w on a moderated overclock under stress testing.
> Also heat and watts goes in increments of 2 so ends more more heat and power draw.


These two values(<-) are the calculated results and are used as a reference, not actual R15 data.
Added: Complete data that has been revealed


----------



## Falkentyne

Cyph3r said:


> The XI Hero is certainly ok, but I wouldn't call it cream of the crop. The high end Gigabyte boards seem to be offering the best VRM setups for the price.


Isn't the high end Gigabyte Z390 using 'phase doubled' VRM's as well as International Rectifier on the Master, but Intersil (which is arguably better specs) on the Ultra?

How does that compare to the Asus Maximus XI Extreme?


----------



## newls1

AlphaC said:


> You didn't specify workload _or where you can buy from_ but anything from truly midrange z390 or anything closer to the higher end of Z370 should do fine.
> 
> Boards such as the ROG Hero (z370/Z390), Asus Z390-A / STRIX-E / STRIX-F boards, any of the Aorus Z390 boards (the Pro is a safe bet as it is the same as Ultra in terms of power design and retains the heatpipe), Z370 Gaming 7 if you get one without the heatsink issue (some have a contact issue at the VRM heatsink), Asrock Taichi (z370/z390) for example. All these boards are using at least 8 phases digitally controlled with IR35201 or ISL69138 PWM (i.e. high end , more accurate) and either powerblocks or powerstages rather than older technology less efficient Powerpaks. For outright ease of use, the ASUS Z390 boards probably are easiest due to the new AI overclock software (it identifies silicon quality), but if you're willing to plug in a voltage and multiplier for core ratio and uncore ratio then run a stress test or two (not sure which stress test AI OC uses for stability so manual OC might be more stable) it might not be worth the price premium.
> 
> If you're not using AVX instruction-sets (especially AVX2 which is even higher power draw) then the Asrock Z370 K6 has had decent results (it also uses a IR35201 PWM & powerblocks) with hex-cores, whereas the Z390 Phantom Gaming 6 that came after has a new PWM from uPI semiconductor that is used on lower end MSI boards so I don't have much confidence in it. Additionally, the Z390 Phantom Gaming 6 is priced relatively high relative to its predecessor and other competing boards. There's really no other Z370 board than the Gigabyte Z370 Gaming 7 that really stands out vs Z390. It's a testament to the superiority of the Z370 K6 design vs other midrange Z370 boards when every other manufacturer had to ditch their entire mid-range power design for Z390 and Asrock kept theirs , made heatsink bigger, and somehow decided to cheapen the PWM. My biggest complaint with the Z370 K6 overall was the ridiculously outdated IO choices: it has a VGA port and DVI. Right now it's not really as good of a price/performance board due to its end of life status.
> 
> There's other boards such as the Z390 Pro Carbon and Z390 Edge AC that haven't been tested yet. We do know that boards such as the Z370 Pro Carbon / Ultra Gaming / STRIX Z370-E / Z370-F are not that great relative to their Z390 counterparts which have been upgraded.
> 
> 
> 
> Definitely better than pro carbon. Pro Carbon has no indication of having doublers so the ripple will be outright worse. Also the Pro carbon has 2 fewer high/low side mosfets.
> 
> ACE might perform on the Taichi level thermally but that's only if the heatsink is as good. Also that doesn't account for the switching frequency : the switching frequency on a powerblock or powerstage is typically 500kHz , which is nearly double that of a typical Powerpak implementation (~300kHz).
> 
> AFAIK early indications are Z390 Hero > Z390 Taichi this time. (per Tech Yes City)
> 
> If I had to take a guess then I would think the z390 Ace performs about as well as a z390 Taichi in terms of thermals but worse in terms of ripple (due to 300kHz default switching frequency vs 500kHz). With 160A output you're looking at anywhere from 1.2 to 2W of heat output per high side fet depending on switching frequency due to the high side fet being a slow switching one.
> 
> 
> You probably need a fan for anything more than stock. Even supposed stock results on sisoft were pulling 170W - 210W. You really took a risk buying that board if you can't return it since i9 NDA isn't over until Friday.
> 
> The NexFETs aren't all for the VCORE so it's likely 6+1. I'd say about 20A-25A per phase is expected, which is around 160-200W since NexFETs are normalized to 1.3V.
> 
> It's going to be a similar scenario on all ITX boards although their approaches are different (i.e. Onsemi NCP302045 powerstage on the ASUS one and IR3553 on the Gigabyte Aorus one , also the ASUS/Gigabyte boards use a better PWM). The Asrock Z390 Phantom Gaming ITX has the advantage of a heatpiped heatsink (it uses the PCH heatsink to double the effective heatsink area), better mosfet packaging due to the exposed junction and built in thermal/current monitoring with ISL99227B which reduces the thermal resistance and has more safeties.
> 
> The Z370 Fatal1ty ITX predecessor has been shown to have a 200W power limit if I recall , so the main advantages to the Phantom Gaming ITX are mainly the thermals and the inclusion of Thunderbolt 3 (rather than requiring an add-in card).
> 
> 
> 
> If it's for gaming I don't think there will be any issues with either Formula (z370/z390).
> 
> 
> ----------------
> et7878789 , i9-9900K power draw on Gigabyte pdf was in Prime95 AVX not Cinebench
> ---------------
> 
> Yes as far as we know it is mainly IO and other modifications.



as far as the MEG ACE goes, can i adjust switching freq in bios to 500khz?


----------



## zGunBLADEz

et7878789 said:


> no,that both data are run P95 Watt. R15 data is BTW.
> but 8700K seems run the third test.
> 
> i find other 8700K P95 FFT data
> [email protected]@5G=(1.2112V/250.2W/93°C)
> [email protected]@5G=(1.2960V/195.7W/78°C)
> 
> so 2C=+55W:h34r-smi
> 
> 
> 
> These two values(<-) are the calculated results and are used as a reference, not actual R15 data.
> Added: Complete data that has been revealed
> https://imgur.com/HkEXGrF.jpg



oh ok, im still *not impress by it* it looks so skylake-ish thats 3 gens ago perf XD


the 8700k wattage looks around the right ballpark to me but at that vcore idk.

now, i doubt also the one from the 9900k specially the vcore they are using..


both vcore looks fishy to me svid its NOT the real vcore, so i cant say what they using and what they calling stable and how they running it.


----------



## JsBee

Trying to decide between the Asrock Taichi, MSI Meg Ace, Strix Z390-E or the Maximus VI Hero for the 9900k, which one should I go for? I've only used Asus boards in my systems but I've heard good things about ASRock as well. Not too familar on the Gigabyte boards but I would be open to the idea.

I'm planning on going with a Noctua D15s, Kraken x62 or h115i pro for cooling.


----------



## newls1

JsBee said:


> Trying to decide between the Asrock Taichi, MSI Meg Ace, Strix Z390-E or the Maximus VI Hero for the 9900k, which one should I go for? I've only used Asus boards in my systems but I've heard good things about ASRock as well. Not too familar on the Gigabyte boards but I would be open to the idea.
> 
> I'm planning on going with a Noctua D15s, Kraken x62 or h115i pro for cooling.


if my opinion means anything here, i will say this..... Asrock has very weird bios'es to the point they are confusing and a complete mess. Gigabyte is in this same class to me. MSI has very straight foward bios, easy to navigate, and usually everything "just works" My thoughts on asus is unless you go super highend, their quality has tanked the past few years. I went 15ish years as a asus hardcore loyal user... NO MORE. Im really stuck on MSI now. I build a 2-3 PC's a month for about 30 a year, and MSI hasent let me down yet


----------



## cletus-cassidy

JsBee said:


> Trying to decide between the Asrock Taichi, MSI Meg Ace, Strix Z390-E or the Maximus VI Hero for the 9900k, which one should I go for? I've only used Asus boards in my systems but I've heard good things about ASRock as well. Not too familar on the Gigabyte boards but I would be open to the idea.
> 
> I'm planning on going with a Noctua D15s, Kraken x62 or h115i pro for cooling.


My $0.02. I think the "BIOS issues" raised with Asrock and Gigabyte are a bit overblown. I've owned both (x370 and z370 Taichis, Gig X99 Ultra), and also Asus and MSI. My take is I'm almost always able to work around an unintuitive or otherwise challenging BIOS. I've yet to be able to work around poor power delivery or overheating VRMs. 

I went with the z390 Aorus Master this time around given its VRM improvements (but may also grab Maximus Formula if they ever come in stock).


----------



## the1corrupted

Lass3 said:


> Same. I'm probably going mATX this time. MSI Z390M Edge AC looks great (I'm not sure if LED can be turned off in BIOS/UEFI tho, I hope so?!)
> 
> According to Anandtech MSI Z390M Gaming Edge AC is 8 phases
> https://www.anandtech.com/show/13407/intel-z390-motherboard-overview-every-motherboard-analyzed/2
> 
> Not sure about the ASUS TUF Z390M, I can't find much info about it - It's only 8 pin but looks like some boards on Anandtech's list have better VRM with 8 than 8+4 ??





asdkj1740 said:


> if the MSI Z390M Gaming Edge AC is using up9521 then it cant be real 8 phases. it could only be doubled 8 or 8 in parallel.
> it is easy to check on msi mobo, the mosfets solder points on the back of the pcb show whether two phases are linked together or not, if they are pointing to each other then it is in parellel design.
> 
> however, among other mobo on the same price range, msi has the best vrm heatsink which help a lot.


I did a lot of internet digging. The UP9521 is a 1/2/3/4 phase controller. asdkj1740 is right in that they are probably use a doubling scheme. As I am also interested in the Z390M Edge, I tried my best to source anything else on this board. I pulled Anandtech's list, and tried to find out what MOSFETs were being used.

(Source for controller: https://www.wpgholdings.com/aitg/procurement_detail/zhtw/16441)

I could only (sort of) locate data for the low side MOSFETs. I think it's made by On Semiconductor. I believe that ON4C024N is actually NTMFS4C024N. I can't read these data sheets. Would these be good FETs for low-side?

https://www.onsemi.com/pub/Collateral/NTMFS4C024N-D.PDF

I currently have a Maximus 8 Gene, and may actually be switching to MSI this time around. The Maximus XI Gene looks like a confused mess of what an mATX board really should be. I can't wait to see OC results for the Z390M Edge. I just wish there were more published reviews using 8700K data and extrapolating what the extra 2 cores do. I think it would be perfectly reasonable to run an 8700K and add 33% extra power for the additional cores for power consumption.

Personally, I find the i9 9900K TDP super suspiciously low. I think it will be a lot closer to the 7820X in terms of power/performance.


----------



## Telstar

JsBee said:


> Trying to decide between the Asrock Taichi, MSI Meg Ace, Strix Z390-E or the Maximus VI Hero for the 9900k, which one should I go for? I've only used Asus boards in my systems but I've heard good things about ASRock as well. Not too familar on the Gigabyte boards but I would be open to the idea.


As you see from the table Gigabyte Aorus boards have a better price/quality ratio at this round. You could save some money and get one of them (even the Pro will overclock very well), or dish some more for the best bios in the industry (Asus). I'm also debating between these 3: Hero, Aorus Master (best VRM in my budget and still cheaper than the Asus), Aorus Pro (cheapest option). I'm not getting MSI or Asrock at this time, as they can be fickery IME.


----------



## marcolisi

Hi guys, I was able to preorder today the Z390 Asus maximus XI Extreme.

I have also pre-odered the msi 2080ti trio

I have also pre-ordered the i9-9900K (8-Core)

I have a few questions and I hope you can help me please.

1) Could you please suggest me what type of pc case would fit this motherboard? I am not looking for an expensive pc case. I have a Thermaltake View 22 Tempered Glass Edition Mid-Tower Chassis for my current pc. Would this case work for the new motherboard ?

2) If I would go for the best air cooling for the CPU, what would you suggest me to get? I am afraid of the water cooling since I leave my PC on 24/7 and at times I let it run for days without checking on it

3) What 65 GB RAM would you suggest for this motherboard/processor?

4) I have a power unit corsair cx750m , would that be enough for running this pc and overclocking it? 

thanks!


----------



## tostitobandito

marcolisi said:


> Hi guys, I was able to preorder today the Z390 Asus maximus XI Extreme.
> 
> I have also pre-odered the msi 2080ti trio
> 
> I have also pre-ordered the i9-9900K (8-Core)
> 
> I have a few questions and I hope you can help me please.
> 
> 1) Could you please suggest me what type of pc case would fit this motherboard? I am not looking for an expensive pc case
> 
> 2) If I would go for the best air cooling for the CPU, what would you suggest me to get? I am afraid of the water cooling since I leave my PC on 24/7 and at times I let it run for days without checking on it
> 
> 3) What 65 GB RAM would you suggest for this motherboard/processor?
> 
> 4) I have a power unit corsair cx750m , would that be enough for running this pc and overclocking it?
> 
> thanks!



1. Most any normal size mid-tower will fit that MB fine. Most of them support ATX and EATX. Check to make sure, but you should have basically the full selection of cases to choose from.
2. Noctua NH-D15. However, if you want to push that 9900K very far you'll probably want it on water. It makes a lot of heat. I'd advise a 280mm or 360mm AIO if you don't want to do a custom loop.
3. I don't think 64GB of RAM is necessary or advisable. 32GB is fine. I'd go with either G.Skill or Corsair, at least DDR4-3200.
4. Maybe, but you might be cutting it close. An 850 or 1000 would be safer.


----------



## bastian

The Master has arrived. Currently running a 8086k @ 5.2Ghz All Core Turbo no sweat. 9900k coming soon.


----------



## Glerox

marcolisi said:


> Hi guys, I was able to preorder today the Z390 Asus maximus XI Extreme.
> 
> I have also pre-odered the msi 2080ti trio
> 
> I have also pre-ordered the i9-9900K (8-Core)
> 
> I have a few questions and I hope you can help me please.
> 
> 1) Could you please suggest me what type of pc case would fit this motherboard? I am not looking for an expensive pc case. I have a Thermaltake View 22 Tempered Glass Edition Mid-Tower Chassis for my current pc. Would this case work for the new motherboard ?
> 
> 2) If I would go for the best air cooling for the CPU, what would you suggest me to get? I am afraid of the water cooling since I leave my PC on 24/7 and at times I let it run for days without checking on it
> 
> 3) What 65 GB RAM would you suggest for this motherboard/processor?
> 
> 4) I have a power unit corsair cx750m , would that be enough for running this pc and overclocking it?
> 
> thanks!


Why the extreme with a air cooler?
The extreme is built for extreme overclocking, like LN2 territory. I would at bare minimum put a AIO liquid cooler with the Extreme MB and don't expect to get better performance over any high end Z390.
But maybe you just like the looks or money is no issue.

Also yeah go for at least 850w. I have the same combo as you and I fear my RM850x won't be enough...


----------



## Robbært

the1corrupted said:


> I did a lot of internet digging. The UP9521 is a 1/2/3/4 phase controller. asdkj1740 is right in that they are probably use a doubling scheme. As I am also interested in the Z390M Edge, I tried my best to source anything else on this board. I pulled Anandtech's list, and tried to find out what MOSFETs were being used.
> 
> (Source for controller: https://www.wpgholdings.com/aitg/procurement_detail/zhtw/16441)
> 
> I could only (sort of) locate data for the low side MOSFETs. I think it's made by On Semiconductor. I believe that ON4C024N is actually NTMFS4C024N. I can't read these data sheets. Would these be good FETs for low-side?
> 
> https://www.onsemi.com/pub/Collateral/NTMFS4C024N-D.PDF
> 
> I currently have a Maximus 8 Gene, and may actually be switching to MSI this time around. The Maximus XI Gene looks like a confused mess of what an mATX board really should be. I can't wait to see OC results for the Z390M Edge. I just wish there were more published reviews using 8700K data and extrapolating what the extra 2 cores do. I think it would be perfectly reasonable to run an 8700K and add 33% extra power for the additional cores for power consumption.
> 
> Personally, I find the i9 9900K TDP super suspiciously low. I think it will be a lot closer to the 7820X in terms of power/performance.


uP9521P should be 6+2 at worst as there 12 FDPC5030SG and 2 more phases in asrock z390 extreme4

Anandtech's list has typo and pair for NTMFS4C024N-D (ON4C024N) is NTMFS4C029N-D (ON4C029N), not 4C929

...enhancements enable 3 % better efficiency and over 50 °C lower operating temperatures compared to previous generation DrMOS, previous generation had same Tjmax 150C
4C024N: Continuous Drain Current Ta = 25C 34.8A, Ta = 80°C 26.0A
DrMOS SiC634: up to 50 A continuous current (Ta = 25C)
I think they assume Tcase <=125C in both scenarios.
And there 105C capacitors around.
When chip not work at limit it will heat less.

my 5¢
All boards have temperature sensor under CPU socket, near PCIE area and in whatever else places. It complete useless. 
Gigabyte put temperature sensors in VRM area and it a board to go with (z390), unless you can afford ASUS.
MSI is joke manufacturer, but not worst one.
pre-z390 Gigabyte is no-no (still have low failure rate).
z370 is ASRock time, unless you can afford ASUS.
ASUS is their "AI Overclocking" capable boards only, rest is overpriced junk with extra BIOS code since Pentium-1.


----------



## TahoeDust

JsBee said:


> Trying to decide between the Asrock Taichi, MSI Meg Ace, Strix Z390-E or the Maximus VI Hero for the 9900k, which one should I go for? I've only used Asus boards in my systems but I've heard good things about ASRock as well. Not too familar on the Gigabyte boards but I would be open to the idea.
> 
> I'm planning on going with a Noctua D15s, Kraken x62 or h115i pro for cooling.


My current board is a GIgabyte x299 Aorus Gaming 7...This was my first Gigabyte board and I was never a fan of the bios. This time I went back to Asus and went with the Hero...


----------



## the1corrupted

Robbært said:


> uP9521P should be 6+2 at worst as there 12 FDPC5030SG and 2 more phases in asrock z390 extreme4
> 
> Anandtech's list has typo and pair for NTMFS4C024N-D (ON4C024N) is NTMFS4C029N-D (ON4C029N), not 4C929
> 
> ...enhancements enable 3 % better efficiency and over 50 °C lower operating temperatures compared to previous generation DrMOS, previous generation had same Tjmax 150C
> 4C024N: Continuous Drain Current Ta = 25C 34.8A, Ta = 80°C 26.0A
> DrMOS SiC634: up to 50 A continuous current (Ta = 25C)
> I think they assume Tcase <=125C in both scenarios.
> And there 105C capacitors around.
> When chip not work at limit it will heat less.
> 
> my 5¢
> All boards have temperature sensor under CPU socket, near PCIE area and in whatever else places. It complete useless.
> Gigabyte put temperature sensors in VRM area and it a board to go with (z390), unless you can afford ASUS.
> MSI is joke manufacturer, but not worst one.
> pre-z390 Gigabyte is no-no (still have low failure rate).
> z370 is ASRock time, unless you can afford ASUS.
> ASUS is their "AI Overclocking" capable boards only, rest is overpriced junk with extra BIOS code since Pentium-1.


While I can afford ASUS, my current case is restricted to mATX or smaller. 
I cannot fit a larger case on my desk.
That being said, I am not sure anything would come close to my dear Maximus 8 Gene in terms of VRM other than the Maximus XI but that board has yet to appear anywhere. I don't have an issue with the hardware side of an ASRock board, but I have heard not to trust the BIOS on them.


----------



## Robbært

marcolisi said:


> Hi guys, I was able to preorder today the Z390 Asus maximus XI Extreme.
> 
> I have also pre-odered the msi 2080ti trio
> 
> I have also pre-ordered the i9-9900K (8-Core)
> 
> I have a few questions and I hope you can help me please.
> 
> 1) Could you please suggest me what type of pc case would fit this motherboard? I am not looking for an expensive pc case. I have a Thermaltake View 22 Tempered Glass Edition Mid-Tower Chassis for my current pc. Would this case work for the new motherboard ?
> 
> 2) If I would go for the best air cooling for the CPU, what would you suggest me to get? I am afraid of the water cooling since I leave my PC on 24/7 and at times I let it run for days without checking on it
> 
> 3) What 65 GB RAM would you suggest for this motherboard/processor?
> 
> 4) I have a power unit corsair cx750m , would that be enough for running this pc and overclocking it?
> 
> thanks!


I suggest to cancel 2080ti order as they have mass defect with onscreen dot artifacts and more.

As selecting case would be visual only, USB front panel boards go for $12 at Amazon if your case not have enough.

"afraid of the water cooling" there now water flow sensor (at least in ASUS MB). Don't get something without for water.
If air: Noctua D15 and there some with cool names: Thermalright Macho Rev.B, Lucifer V2, RAIJINTEK TISIS / Ereboss, one of Scythe coolers is ok.
Lucifer is cheapest. They all in range of 1-3% same perfomance.
If you have cats in house don't get D15/TISIS as clearing them could annoy and require removing of cooler.
There no high performance horizontal coolers (easy to clean) anymore.
Macho with two coolers and if one breaks you can live with other while replacement get to you.

Also thermal paste MX-4 is "thermal grease" and you don't have to replace it at all.


----------



## TahoeDust

Robbært said:


> I suggest to cancel 2080ti order as they have mass defect with onscreen dot artifacts and more.


From what I have seen it is the Founders Edition cards that are having the problems. It seems like maybe something they have fixed though as most people's replacements have been fine.


----------



## marcolisi

tostitobandito said:


> marcolisi said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hi guys, I was able to preorder today the Z390 Asus maximus XI Extreme.
> 
> I have also pre-odered the msi 2080ti trio
> 
> I have also pre-ordered the i9-9900K (8-Core)
> 
> I have a few questions and I hope you can help me please.
> 
> 1) Could you please suggest me what type of pc case would fit this motherboard? I am not looking for an expensive pc case
> 
> 2) If I would go for the best air cooling for the CPU, what would you suggest me to get? I am afraid of the water cooling since I leave my PC on 24/7 and at times I let it run for days without checking on it
> 
> 3) What 65 GB RAM would you suggest for this motherboard/processor?
> 
> 4) I have a power unit corsair cx750m , would that be enough for running this pc and overclocking it?
> 
> thanks!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 1. Most any normal size mid-tower will fit that MB fine. Most of them support ATX and EATX. Check to make sure, but you should have basically the full selection of cases to choose from.
> 2. Noctua NH-D15. However, if you want to push that 9900K very far you'll probably want it on water. It makes a lot of heat. I'd advise a 280mm or 360mm AIO if you don't want to do a custom loop.
> 3. I don't think 64GB of RAM is necessary or advisable. 32GB is fine. I'd go with either G.Skill or Corsair, at least DDR4-3200.
> 4. Maybe, but you might be cutting it close. An 850 or 1000 would be safer.
Click to expand...

My problem with going with water cooling is that I have never had a pc with a water cooling system and I keep on my pc 24/7 for months and months in a row without turning it off. I am not sure what water cooling requires in term of maintainance . Are they safe or without periodically checking I would end up destroying my pc?

Is there any water cooling system that is safe ? What is the maintainance required by water cooling system?

As for the pc case , I wish I would be able to use the one that I have now 
(Thermaltake View 22 Tempered Glass Edition Mid-Tower Chassis)
. It seems it does not support eats. I was wondering of somehow I can make it fit by modding the atx case I have.

I would use my pc with the most demanding vr headset on the market , the pimax 8k and when ready, the pimax 8kx. I need the most from power as possible from this pc, becasue the pimax headset is very demanding at its widest field of view.

Thanks!


----------



## marcolisi

Delete pls


----------



## marcolisi

TahoeDust said:


> Robbært;27671246 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I suggest to cancel 2080ti order as they have mass defect with onscreen dot artifacts and more.
> 
> 
> 
> From what I have seen it is the Founders Edition cards that are having the problems. It seems like maybe something they have fixed though as most people's replacements have been fine.
Click to expand...

I have got a msi trio , so I guess I should be fine. Let's keep the finger crossed


----------



## marcolisi

Glerox said:


> marcolisi said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hi guys, I was able to preorder today the Z390 Asus maximus XI Extreme.
> 
> I have also pre-odered the msi 2080ti trio
> 
> I have also pre-ordered the i9-9900K (8-Core)
> 
> I have a few questions and I hope you can help me please.
> 
> 1) Could you please suggest me what type of pc case would fit this motherboard? I am not looking for an expensive pc case. I have a Thermaltake View 22 Tempered Glass Edition Mid-Tower Chassis for my current pc. Would this case work for the new motherboard ?
> 
> 2) If I would go for the best air cooling for the CPU, what would you suggest me to get? I am afraid of the water cooling since I leave my PC on 24/7 and at times I let it run for days without checking on it
> 
> 3) What 65 GB RAM would you suggest for this motherboard/processor?
> 
> 4) I have a power unit corsair cx750m , would that be enough for running this pc and overclocking it?
> 
> thanks!
> 
> 
> 
> Why the extreme with a air cooler?
> The extreme is built for extreme overclocking, like LN2 territory. I would at bare minimum put a AIO liquid cooler with the Extreme MB and don't expect to get better performance over any high end Z390.
> But maybe you just like the looks or money is no issue.
> 
> Also yeah go for at least 850w. I have the same combo as you and I fear my RM850x won't be enough...
Click to expand...

I need to push the performance of my pc the best I can (based on my zero knowledge about water cooling and the continuos hours of usage of the pc) for using my PC with the highest hardware demanding consumer vr headset on the market , this is why I have got the high end asus.
I am afraid of using the water cooling but that does not mean that at some point I would not try water cooling, so having a card that is better for water cooling, leaves me that option open, at $50 more compared to the one step down/ lower asus model , so I do not see drama about the money i spent for the asus Extreme version .

Can anyone assure me that leaving on the pc 24/7 for months and months , would not be an issue while using water cooling?


----------



## marcolisi

the1corrupted said:


> Robbært;27671194 said:
> 
> 
> 
> uP9521P should be 6+2 at worst as there 12 FDPC5030SG and 2 more phases in asrock z390 extreme4
> 
> Anandtech's list has typo and pair for NTMFS4C024N-D (ON4C024N) is NTMFS4C029N-D (ON4C029N), not 4C929
> 
> ...enhancements enable 3 % better efficiency and over 50 °C lower operating temperatures compared to previous generation DrMOS, previous generation had same Tjmax 150C
> 4C024N: Continuous Drain Current Ta = 25C 34.8A, Ta = 80°C 26.0A
> DrMOS SiC634: up to 50 A continuous current (Ta = 25C)
> I think they assume Tcase <=125C in both scenarios.
> And there 105C capacitors around.
> When chip not work at limit it will heat less.
> 
> my 5¢
> All boards have temperature sensor under CPU socket, near PCIE area and in whatever else places. It complete useless.
> Gigabyte put temperature sensors in VRM area and it a board to go with (z390), unless you can afford ASUS.
> MSI is joke manufacturer, but not worst one.
> pre-z390 Gigabyte is no-no (still have low failure rate).
> z370 is ASRock time, unless you can afford ASUS.
> ASUS is their "AI Overclocking" capable boards only, rest is overpriced junk with extra BIOS code since Pentium-1.
> 
> 
> 
> While I can afford ASUS, my current case is restricted to mATX or smaller. /forum/images/smilies/frown.gif
> I cannot fit a larger case on my desk.
> That being said, I am not sure anything would come close to my dear Maximus 8 Gene in terms of VRM other than the Maximus XI but that board has yet to appear anywhere. I don't have an issue with the hardware side of an ASRock board, but I have heard not to trust the BIOS on them.
Click to expand...

I have pre-ordered the asus xi maximum extreme from here:

https://www.shopblt.com/item/asus-rog-maximus-xi-extreme/asus_rogmaximusxiextreme.html


----------



## eric98k

Robbært said:


> uP9521P should be 6+2 at worst as there 12 FDPC5030SG and 2 more phases in asrock z390 extreme4


There are probably 2 stages for VCCIO and VCCSA controlled by Richtek RT8120 separately, similar to Taichi. So 12 FDPC5030SG for 10 VCC + 2 VCCGT.


----------



## Recipe7

marcolisi said:


> I have pre-ordered the asus xi maximum extreme from here:
> 
> https://www.shopblt.com/item/asus-rog-maximus-xi-extreme/asus_rogmaximusxiextreme.html


Hmm, i might get the extreme insteqd of formula. I dont want to wait months for a monoblock though. 

What has been the trend for monoblock release with new chipsets? Will the X fit the XI?


----------



## eric98k

Did anyone notice ASUS' new Z370 II models? They all seem to be using Z390 VRMs.

Prime Z370-A II
Z370-P II
Z370M-Plus II
TUF Z370-Plus Gaming II


----------



## fullderp

Does anyone know if the ASRock h370 will run a 9900k at stock speeds?




edit;;


'''Some interesting caveats for H370 include the fact that the i7-8700K CPU KitGuru tests with has an all-core Turbo frequency of 3.9GHz rather than the 4.3GHz we’ve seen on other H370 and B360 motherboards. As we’ll see later this does affect system performance. ASRock were notified of this in advance of publication and explained to us that this is a deliberate decision as the H370M-ITX/ac is an “entry level” motherboard which is not designed to run a Core i7-8700K at a 4.3GHz turbo frequency for an extended period of time.'''



just found this on kitguru, asrock h370 review.. so sadly i think i have my answer


----------



## GreedyMuffin

Worth it to sell my Z370 Taichi for about 200 usd, and buy a GB Master for 380 usd?

Will be using a 9900K and a hefty loop.


----------



## cletus-cassidy

GreedyMuffin said:


> Worth it to sell my Z370 Taichi for about 200 usd, and buy a GB Master for 380 usd?
> 
> Will be using a 9900K and a hefty loop.


Just made that choice. Exactly the same boards, CPU and large custom loop. Note Master is $290 USD at Newegg.


----------



## eric98k

[ocaholic] ASUS ROG Maximus XI Gene pictured: gallery 
https://www.ocaholic.co.uk/modules/extgallery/public-album.php?id=1318


----------



## cletus-cassidy

Additional detail on Z390 Aorus Master VRM here: https://www.techbang.com/posts/6166...-open-box-introduction-and-measurement?page=1


----------



## Hackslash

cletus-cassidy said:


> Additional detail on Z390 Aorus Master VRM here: https://www.techbang.com/posts/6166...-open-box-introduction-and-measurement?page=1


link not working


----------



## cletus-cassidy

Hackslash said:


> link not working


Taken down. Try the web cached version: https://webcache.googleusercontent....ion-and-measurement+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us


----------



## eric98k

Buildzoid reviews the MSI Z390 Godlike VRM and PCB, talking about overclocking capabilities and whether it's worth spending $600 for this board.


----------



## tostitobandito

Yeah, great video. Hoping he hits some more of the high end Z390 boards, especially the ones with $300+ price tags.


----------



## Cyph3r

Still looking out for Aorus Master vs Maximus XI Hero specifically.

I returned my Maximus XI Hero board and waiting to see if the Aorus Master is the one to go for instead.


----------



## AlphaC

Gigabyte's Z390 Aorus Xtreme spotted 






It has the backplate as the Z390 Master as well as the heatpiped heatsink with fins.

Also a 90° angle ATX connector , 4 way SLI, audio upgrades (such as anti-pop relay + TI OPA1622 op amp), extra PCIE power connector for GPUs, and some sort of dual LAN solution (AQUANTIA 10Gbps) and Thunderbolt 3. There's also an OC touch connector for BLCK and ratio adjustment via the OC touch add-in card.


edit: https://www.gigabyte.com/kr/Motherboard/Z390-AORUS-XTREME-rev-10#kf


----------



## tostitobandito

Cyph3r said:


> Still looking out for Aorus Master vs Maximus XI Hero specifically.
> 
> I returned my Maximus XI Hero board and waiting to see if the Aorus Master is the one to go for instead.



What was wrong with the Hero? Are you just after the most possible power phases?


----------



## eric98k

OC3D: Intel Core i9-9900K and ASUS Z390 Strix-E Review

Guru3D: MSI MEG Z390 ACE review
ASUS ROG Maximum XI Hero review

Tom'sHardware: MSI MPG Z390 Gaming Pro Carbon Review


----------



## Robbært

eric98k said:


> Tom'sHardware: MSI MPG Z390 Gaming Pro Carbon Review


VRM at 41 and 43C, how it this low? idle? better than asus xi hero?

Edit: And Guru3D VRM results for both boards visually look wrong too


----------



## asdkj1740

https://www.techbang.com/posts/6180...carbon-motherboard-test?comment_page=1&page=1
MPG Z390 Gaming Pro Carbon

5+1 pwm mode confirmed. 10 in parallel.

btw the up9521 controller is not bad, it supports (at least on this mobo) llc / switching frequency tweaking etc.



https://www.techbang.com/posts/6188...xi-extreme-powered-by-z390-chipset-regression
asp1405 used to be paired with doublers like ir3599 or ir3598.
but on z390 asp1405 seems to be used for controlling 5 pwm signals to vcore as asp1400 is 4+2 only.
wonder why asus no longer uses doublers on z390.


----------



## eric98k

ASRock Z390 Extreme4 review: https://news.xfastest.com/review/review-03/54631/asrock-z390-extreme4/

PCB back: 5 dual driver (doubler?) + 2 drivers

uP9521 & SM7341EH

VRM front: 12x SM7341EH (PQVC marking) + 2x 1H1L stages

So uP9521(5+2), 5x2 (doubled or in parallel?) SM7341EH for VCC, 2 SM7341EH for VCCGT, 2 extra single stages for VCCIO & VCCSA


----------



## Robbært

ASUS ROG STRIX Z390-E GAMING
10x NCP302045 ?4*2 +2, no closeup, but it clearly seen 10x DrMOS
LinX VRM at 95C OC 9700K
and ASUS ROG Strix B360-F Gaming uses same ASP1400CTB + sets of 4C10+4C06 4*2 +VCCSA/VCCIO
HWiNFO 105C should be VRM and it only 8700K OC


----------



## jasonwaterfalls

asdkj1740 said:


> https://www.techbang.com/posts/6180...carbon-motherboard-test?comment_page=1&page=1
> MPG Z390 Gaming Pro Carbon
> 
> 5+1 pwm mode confirmed. 10 in parallel.
> 
> btw the up9521 controller is not bad, it supports (at least on this mobo) llc / switching frequency tweaking etc.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.techbang.com/posts/6188...xi-extreme-powered-by-z390-chipset-regression
> asp1405 used to be paired with doublers like ir3599 or ir3598.
> but on z390 asp1405 seems to be used for controlling 5 pwm signals to vcore as asp1400 is 4+2 only.
> wonder why asus no longer uses doublers on z390.


 Should this be identical on the MSI MPG Z390M then?


----------



## asdkj1740

jasonwaterfalls said:


> Should this be identical on the MSI MPG Z390M then?


no msi mpg z390m should be 8+1, 8 in parallel.


----------



## eric98k

jasonwaterfalls said:


> Should this be identical on the MSI MPG Z390M then?


MSI MPG Z390M would be 4+1 mode, with 4x2 in parallel for VCC, 1 for VCCGT


----------



## jasonwaterfalls

eric98k said:


> MSI MPG Z390M would be 4+1 mode, with 4x2 in parallel for VCC, 1 for VCCGT


 Are there no good matx boards then this time around? The Gene is AWOL and still no news on it from what I can tell.


----------



## AlphaC

*POWER DRAW*



https://www.anandtech.com/show/13400/intel-9th-gen-core-i9-9900k-i7-9700k-i5-9600k-review/21









----
Also I don't think i9 with less than 280mm AIO is going to reliably hit 5GHz:

https://quasarzone.co.kr/bbs/board.php?bo_table=qc_qsz&wr_id=187337
(Kraken X62)
















http://playwares.com/pcreview/56966692#






(H110i)


http://www.comptoir-hardware.com/ar...core-i9-9900k-i7-9700k-i5-9600k.html?start=15








https://www.nag.co.za/2018/10/19/intel-core-i9-9900k-review/









https://www.tweaktown.com/reviews/8768/intel-core-i9-9900k-9th-gen-coffee-lake-review/index7.html


> We measure at the 8-pin power connector, and we see some pretty high power consumption as we did with the 2700X and PBOD. It could be motherboard vendors didn't securely power lock the CPU, but we do see that *default power limits are set at 95W for PL1 and 118W at PL2, which is in line with a 15% decrease in converter power efficiency costs. The CPU will pull roughly 20-25W more than 95W if you use an AVX load at 100%* on all cores at stock, and while that isn't too much, it is 25% more than what you might expect.


https://www.hardocp.com/article/2018/10/19/intel_core_i99900k_9th_generation_cpu_review/5
MSI MEG Z390 ACE motherboard was used with a XPSC Raystorm Pro water cooler with 480 radiator











> ...the best (9900K) CPUs are not doing more than 5.1~5.2 all-core on great water. Most in our labs are around the 4.9~5 with a triple radiator and high flow fan setup. A H115i might get you 4.8 all core. The higher end boards are going to help you maintain the OC longer, but with the way these CPUs are, it is going to be a shock to a lot of people expecting more. Intel has these on the ragged edge for that ... 5GHz turbo boost.


 https://www.pcper.com/reviews/Proce...on-Renewed/Power-Consumption-Overclocking-and









https://www.gamersnexus.net/hwrevie...paste-delid-gaming-benchmarks-vs-2700x/page-2







Maximus XI Hero was used


http://yujihw.com/review/intel-core-i7-9700k-1080p-game-test/5









https://www.kitguru.net/components/...9900k-review-mighty-processor-mighty-price/6/


----------



## Robbært

jasonwaterfalls said:


> Are there no good matx boards then this time around? The Gene is AWOL and still no news on it from what I can tell.


XI Gene is 5*2 IR3555. So far it best DrMOS avail.
TDA21462 is more expensive chips, but there no datasheet.


----------



## jasonwaterfalls

Robbært said:


> XI Gene is 5*2 IR3555. So far it best DrMOS avail.
> TDA21462 is more expensive chips, but there no datasheet.


 Yeah, the Gene sounds great, but it's nowhere to be found. That's the problem. There's no release date or anything, either.


----------



## eric98k

OC3D: ASUS ROG Z390-I Strix ITX Review 
https://www.overclock3d.net/reviews/cpu_mainboard/asus_rog_z390-i_strix_itx_review/1


----------



## ASUSTECHMKTJJ

As of now, GENE will not be available in the US. If we see enough demand possibly but due to high cost and specific focus on OC it is not being brought in. If you want the SAME VRM design then it would be the EXTREME. GENE and EXTREME share the same VRM. HERO/FORMULA/CODE are 8+2 no phase extender with OptiMos 302045 and the EXTREME and GENE are 10+2 no phase extender and use IR3555


----------



## AlphaC

https://ru.gecid.com/mboard/asus_prime_z390-a/ , https://www.ixbt.com/platform/asus-prime-z390-a-review.html

Onsemi NCP302045

https://ru.gecid.com/mboard/gigabyte_z390_aorus_master/?s=0

https://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/ASRock/Z390_Taichi/14.html
[email protected] on Alphacool Eisbaer 240
Load Power:251 W VRM Temperature:52.0°C


https://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/MSI/MEG_Z390_GODLIKE/15.html
[email protected] on Alphacool Eisbaer 240
Load power: 251W VRM Temperature: 49.6°C


*https://thinkcomputers.org/asrock-z390-phantom-gaming-sli-ac-motherboard-review/11/
*


> Intel XTU told us that our processor was “Motherboard VR Thermal Throttling”. After doing some research it seemed our VRM components were getting too hot. Looking at the Phantom Gaming series the Gaming SLI/ac has much smaller VRM heatsinks than the Gaming 6 and Gaming 9 boards. We even brought the CPU frequency down to 4.8 GHz across all eight cores and we had the same result, which was a little disappointing.
> We found a solution, which was placing two fans on top of the VRM heatsink, but obviously this is not a viable solution for most people.
> 
> 
> 
> *Cons:– VRM cooling not adequate for overclocking*


https://www.msn.com/zh-tw/news/tech...i-mpg-z390-gaming-pro-carbon-主機板測試/ar-BBOB8fa
ONsemi 4C029N + 4C024N again on MSI Pro carbon


http://www.vmodtech.com/th/article/msi-mag-z390-tomahawk-intel-core-i7-8700k-review/page/10
Not sure if bad CPU sample, but at 1.456V the Nongkoo overclock team reviewer only achieved 5040MHz on i7-8700k (50x multiplier) with Z390 Tomahawk


https://thinkcomputers.org/msi-mag-z390-tomahawk-motherboard-review/5/This reviewer had i9-9900K @ 5.1GHz with 240AIO on the Tomahawk but stability testing was done via AIDA64 stability test



https://post.smzdm.com/p/780233/
Pro Carbon heatsink is pretty low surface area plus it's covered by the plastic , I'm not sure whether there's an advantage over the Edge AC

It managed 5.1GHz on i9-9900K


http://www.coolaler.com/threads/msi-mpg-z390-gaming-edge-ac-core-i9-9900k.352947/
Edge AC with i9-9900k at 51x multiplier but no mention on temps


----------



## jasonwaterfalls

ASUSTECHMKTJJ said:


> As of now, GENE will not be available in the US. If we see enough demand possibly but due to high cost and specific focus on OC it is not being brought in. If you want the SAME VRM design then it would be the EXTREME. GENE and EXTREME share the same VRM. HERO/FORMULA/CODE are 8+2 no phase extender with OptiMos 302045 and the EXTREME and GENE are 10+2 no phase extender and use IR3555


 I am looking to OC on matx, so I was looking forward to the Gene. Now I am not sure what to go with.


----------



## eric98k

ASUSTECHMKTJJ said:


> As of now, GENE will not be available in the US. If we see enough demand possibly but due to high cost and specific focus on OC it is not being brought in. If you want the SAME VRM design then it would be the EXTREME. GENE and EXTREME share the same VRM. HERO/FORMULA/CODE are 8+2 no phase extender with OptiMos 302045 and the EXTREME and GENE are 10+2 no phase extender and use IR3555


@ASUSTECHMKTJJ
SiC639 was spotted in Hero/Formula. Are you using both in the same model?
Why does ASUS hate "phase extender" so much?


----------



## Robbært

AlphaC said:


> Taichi, [email protected] on Alphacool Eisbaer 240
> Load Power:251 W VRM Temperature:52.0°C
> 
> GODLIKE, [email protected] on Alphacool Eisbaer 240
> Load power: 251W VRM Temperature: 49.6°C


I doubt these numbers. Can they be ok for non AVX load?
10* 87350 40A rated, at 50C already 33A, "90% system Efficiency at 25 A", with 9900k @5.1GHz, it pull from them not less than 200A.
Should they go hot? can +90W to 160W be only +4C?

GODLIKE has 16 of some expensive TDA. Also almost no difference Stock vs OC, but this VRM is overkill.

There also have link to guru3d tests...
ASUS ROG Maximus XI Hero
Stock vs OC.
OC picture (lower) has clearly brighter heatsinks (relative to overall picture brightness) and less M4 point (board) temp.
Visually much hotter heatsink at 1C cooler board?
Also with any color picker tool 1st (stock) photo near M4 more 52C color than 50C.
It can't be person doing tech thing not see it.


9900K fail to OC to 5.1 with Noctua D15


----------



## Stryfe2000Turbo

Hey all! Long time reader, first time poster

Are there any reviews of the Gigabyte Aorus Pro (with or without wifi) out there? Haven't had much luck finding them yet

Keep up the good work here!


----------



## Telstar

Stryfe2000Turbo said:


> Are there any reviews of the Gigabyte Aorus Pro (with or without wifi) out there? Haven't had much luck finding them yet


I found only this so far (from Tweaktown youtube channel):


----------



## AlphaC

Stryfe2000Turbo said:


> Hey all! Long time reader, first time poster
> 
> Are there any reviews of the Gigabyte Aorus Pro (with or without wifi) out there? Haven't had much luck finding them yet
> 
> Keep up the good work here!


 None that feature VRM cooling that I can tell


http://en.ocworkbench.com/review-of...h-intel-core-i7-9700k-coffeelake-processor/5/
https://ithardware.pl/testyirecenzje/gigabyte_z390_aorus_pro_test_plyty_glownej-7423.html
https://hk.xfastest.com/16703/gigabyte-z390-aorus-pro-review/
https://www.hkepc.com/17373/用料規格再提升__GIGABYTE_Z390_AORUS_PRO_主機板
https://www.hwbox.gr/reviews/cpu-apu/41940-intel-9th-gen-gigabyte-z390-aorus-motherboard-review.html

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DX5BqRfEEZo (tweaktown overview of nonwifi)
https://www.computerbase.de/2018-10/z390-mainboard-test-asus-gigabyte-intel/3/ <--- Ultra uses same PCB



If you look at the product positioning as a whole (rather than just power delivery) I'd say it's up against the STRIX Z390-E/Z390-F and MSI Z390 MPG Pro Carbon (maybe Edge too) as well as the Asrock Z390 Phantom Gaming 6. So look at the features you need and want and if you're on the fence about buying something wait for further coverage.


As it is now, unless you're using custom water (i.e. D5 pump + 280mm or 360mm radiator) you probably won't be able to overclock the i9 much if at all for AVX let alone AVX2 workloads regardless of which motherboard you choose. This has been noted by multiples sites.


----------



## lb_felipe

Is an ASUS Maximus XI Formula with a be quiet! Dark Rock Pro 4 and an Intel Core i9-9000K a good match? If it is not, what is a good extremely quiet pump?


----------



## AlphaC

lb_felipe said:


> Is an ASUS Maximus XI Formula with a be quiet! Dark Rock Pro 4 and an Intel Core i9-9000K a good match? If it is not, what is a good extremely quiet pump?



Anyone buying a i9-9900K with a decent motherboard is holding themselves back without going for custom water.


I'd say a D5 pump with 280 or 360 copper radiator and a copper CPU waterblock is a minimum if you want to have a sufficient gain over the 4.7GHz all core clock.


You shouldn't be buying the Formula instead of the Code or Hero if you aren't using custom water. The Formula omits a heatpipe and the extra fin area on the VRM heatsink in favor of the VRM waterblock.


edit: for Brazil here's some parts I saw



Spoiler



D5 PWM pump from EKWB: https://gbawatercooler.com.br/shop/index.php?route=product/product&path=116_144_146&product_id=522
EK Supremacy Evo CPU block: https://gbawatercooler.com.br/shop/index.php?route=product/product&path=116_118_125&product_id=513
Nexxos ST30 360 slim radiator https://www.terabyteshop.com.br/produto/9688/radiador-alphacool-nexxxos-st30-puro-cobre-360mm

Nexxos ST30 360 slim radiator _retailer #2_ (not as good as hardwarelabs slim which I can't seem to find in Brazil): http://www.aquatuning.com.br/detail/index/sArticle/10/sCategory/8


_Global shipping options_
Aquacomputer Kryos NEXT CPU Block https://shop.aquacomputer.de/product_info.php?products_id=3504
Heatkiller IV PRO CPU block http://shop.watercool.de/epages/WatercooleK.sf/en_GB/?ObjectPath=/Shops/WatercooleK/Products/18003


_Budget kit with all copper parts, better than 360 AIO generally
_
EK kit with 6W pump , MX CPU block, and the weaker SE radiator https://www.newegg.com/global/br/Product/Product.aspx?Item=9SIAC8W4Z05835
Swiftech 360 AIO with 6W pump ,copper block + copper radiator https://www.newegg.com/global/br/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835108223



see: https://www.xtremerigs.net/2015/02/11/radiator-round-2015/10/


----------



## lb_felipe

AlphaC said:


> Anyone buying a i9-9900K with a decent motherboard is holding themselves back without going for custom water.
> 
> 
> I'd say a D5 pump with 280 or 360 copper radiator and a copper CPU waterblock is a minimum if you want to have a sufficient gain over the 4.7GHz all core clock.
> 
> 
> You shouldn't be buying the Formula instead of the Code or Hero if you aren't using custom water. The Formula omits a heatpipe and the extra fin area on the VRM heatsink in favor of the VRM waterblock.


Thank you.

Please, recommend me all components and its quanties (tubes, fitings, coolant, etc) for a great water cooler to use with those components plus a be quiet! Dark Base Pro 900 rev. 2. I would like to make that thing extremely quiet.

My preference for the Formula is because just it and Extreme have 2.5+G ethernet.


----------



## porksmuggler

AlphaC said:


> None that feature VRM cooling that I can tell
> If you look at the product positioning as a whole (rather than just power delivery) I'd say it's up against the STRIX Z390-E/Z390-F and MSI Z390 MPG Pro Carbon (maybe Edge too) as well as the Asrock Z390 Phantom Gaming 6. So look at the features you need and want and if you're on the fence about buying something wait for further coverage.


Help me out with that feature positioning. The Gigabyte Gaming SLI / X appear to be what's up against the Asus STRIX E / F, MSI Pro Carbon / Edge and Asrock Phantom Gaming 6. What features are you thinking the Gigabyte Aorus Pro / Pro WIFI are missing that they don't stack against the Asus Hero, Asrock Phantom Gaming 9, Taichi, or MSI Ace?


----------



## lb_felipe

If I buy this kit, will I have everything that is necessary fora custom loop to gear up an M11 with a 9900K inside a Dark Base Pro 900 Rev. 2 (inc. enough fitings, brackets, enough length tubing, fans etc)?

Would it be reasonable quiet? Any alternatives? I would like to get suggestion of complete kits in the box.

https://www.ekwb.com/shop/ek-xtop-revo-d5-rgb-pwm-plexi-incl-sl-pump

https://www.ekwb.com/shop/ek-kit-rgb-360


----------



## AlphaC

porksmuggler said:


> Help me out with that feature positioning. The Gigabyte Gaming SLI / X appear to be what's up against the Asus STRIX E / F, MSI Pro Carbon / Edge and Asrock Phantom Gaming 6. What features are you thinking the Gigabyte Aorus Pro / Pro WIFI are missing that they don't stack against the Asus Hero, Asrock Phantom Gaming 9, Taichi, or MSI Ace?


If you're talking about the chart, it's mainly based off the main things people look for which are VRM (power delivery to the CPU), USB 3.1 gen 2 ports (I/O) _which is something I haven't really checked over for Z390 since it's part of chipset_, storage options (M.2/SATA/etc), and whether audio is stuck in the 20th century (ALC887 lol).

Given the cross section of people going for a 3rd M.2 slot is low and the number of people using more than one GPU is also low, I narrowed it down to the two main things: whether audio is absolute garbage and whether the VRM is worth even spending time to look at.

The MSI Ace has a 3rd M.2 , supposedly an ESS DAC (not sure if Aorus Pro has it, I think it's only on the Aorus Master and maybe Ultra), a Debug Code LED + power /reset (also uses Killer LAN only which I'm not a fan of) as well as 2nd USB 3.1 gen 2 front panel connector (really niche use case). There's a semi-useless Game Boost knob too if you're into that.

Phantom Gaming 9 has 2nd and 3rd LAN (not really needed for most people) , 3x M.2, Debug LED + power/reset, and PS/2 port for backwards compatibility for some things. It also has support for 8+ SATA ports but again that's a really narrow section of the market that can make use of that many drives on a mainstream socket. In the past Asrock board have also been the best memory overclockers for 4 DIMM boards even at the mid and low end markets so there's also that.

Features don't come for free so generally you know so either a board is making less margins (i.e. profit) or there's something cut from it. Obviously you would rather go for lower margin boards rather than cut down ones.

Gigabyte's Gaming X for example has ALC892 audio (cheaper than ALC1220 and newer ALC1220-VB implementations) and the heatsinks are attached with push pins. Many of the boards that are packing wifi ac don't mention their AC implementation is absolute garbage and can't do over 433Mbps (it's one of the minor differences between Taichi and Taichi Ultimate ; also MSI Edge has this concern). It's something to be mindful of if you actually use the wifi for anything whether it is fast internet (i.e. some areas have Gigabit internet) or streaming to a different device with ac wifi that is decently fast and over 1Gbps.

Someone over at Tom's hardware has been compiling the non power delivery information but it's by no means all inclusive:
(https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1IY6W6YhyjnzSvi8BqEqiK1xykSiTDF2Lt1FO8cNhI6I/edit?usp=sharing)

source: http://www.tomshardware.com/forum/id-3529650/z370-motherboards-lga1151v2-comparison-tables.html


I've mentioned it earlier that someone has a similar comparison on hwtips Korea that has the display outputs (who buys an i9 and uses display outputs I have no idea) , VRM info (they include capacitors), audio and LAN. Post is here: https://hwtips.tistory.com/2458



lb_felipe said:


> If I buy this kit, will I have everything that is necessary fora custom loop to gear up an M11 with a 9900K inside a Dark Base Pro 900 Rev. 2 (inc. enough fitings, brackets, enough length tubing, fans etc)?
> 
> Would it be reasonable quiet? Any alternatives? I would like to get suggestion of complete kits in the box.
> 
> https://www.ekwb.com/shop/ek-xtop-revo-d5-rgb-pwm-plexi-incl-sl-pump


That's just the pump.

You need radiator + CPU block + tubing + fittings + coolant + drain/fill port (if needed for convenience) + etc. Fans I would probably buy separate.


----------



## lb_felipe

AlphaC said:


> Anyone buying a i9-9900K with a decent motherboard is holding themselves back without going for custom water.
> 
> 
> I'd say a D5 pump with 280 or 360 copper radiator and a copper CPU waterblock is a minimum if you want to have a sufficient gain over the 4.7GHz all core clock.
> 
> 
> You shouldn't be buying the Formula instead of the Code or Hero if you aren't using custom water. The Formula omits a heatpipe and the extra fin area on the VRM heatsink in favor of the VRM waterblock.
> 
> 
> edit: for Brazil here's some parts I saw
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> D5 PWM pump from EKWB: https://gbawatercooler.com.br/shop/index.php?route=product/product&path=116_144_146&product_id=522
> EK Supremacy Evo CPU block: https://gbawatercooler.com.br/shop/index.php?route=product/product&path=116_118_125&product_id=513
> Nexxos ST30 360 slim radiator https://www.terabyteshop.com.br/produto/9688/radiador-alphacool-nexxxos-st30-puro-cobre-360mm
> 
> Nexxos ST30 360 slim radiator _retailer #2_ (not as good as hardwarelabs slim which I can't seem to find in Brazil): http://www.aquatuning.com.br/detail/index/sArticle/10/sCategory/8
> 
> 
> _Global shipping options_
> Aquacomputer Kryos NEXT CPU Block https://shop.aquacomputer.de/product_info.php?products_id=3504
> Heatkiller IV PRO CPU block http://shop.watercool.de/epages/WatercooleK.sf/en_GB/?ObjectPath=/Shops/WatercooleK/Products/18003
> 
> 
> _Budget kit with all copper parts, better than 360 AIO generally
> _
> EK kit with 6W pump , MX CPU block, and the weaker SE radiator https://www.newegg.com/global/br/Product/Product.aspx?Item=9SIAC8W4Z05835
> Swiftech 360 AIO with 6W pump ,copper block + copper radiator https://www.newegg.com/global/br/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835108223
> 
> 
> 
> see: https://www.xtremerigs.net/2015/02/11/radiator-round-2015/10/


Just right now I saw you have edited your post. Thank you.


----------



## lb_felipe

AlphaC said:


> If you're talking about the chart, it's mainly based off the main things people look for which are VRM (power delivery to the CPU), USB 3.1 gen 2 ports (I/O) _which is something I haven't really checked over for Z390 since it's part of chipset_, storage options (M.2/SATA/etc), and whether audio is stuck in the 20th century (ALC887 lol).
> 
> Given the cross section of people going for a 3rd M.2 slot is low and the number of people using more than one GPU is also low, I narrowed it down to the two main things: whether audio is absolute garbage and whether the VRM is worth even spending time to look at.
> 
> The MSI Ace has a 3rd M.2 , supposedly an ESS DAC (not sure if Aorus Pro has it, I think it's only on the Aorus Master and maybe Ultra), a Debug Code LED + power /reset (also uses Killer LAN only which I'm not a fan of) as well as 2nd USB 3.1 gen 2 front panel connector (really niche use case). There's a semi-useless Game Boost knob too if you're into that.
> 
> Phantom Gaming 9 has 2nd and 3rd LAN (not really needed for most people) , 3x M.2, Debug LED + power/reset, and PS/2 port for backwards compatibility for some things. It also has support for 8+ SATA ports but again that's a really narrow section of the market that can make use of that many drives on a mainstream socket. In the past Asrock board have also been the best memory overclockers for 4 DIMM boards even at the mid and low end markets so there's also that.
> 
> Features don't come for free so generally you know so either a board is making less margins (i.e. profit) or there's something cut from it. Obviously you would rather go for lower margin boards rather than cut down ones.
> 
> Gigabyte's Gaming X for example has ALC892 audio (cheaper than ALC1220 and newer ALC1220-VB implementations) and the heatsinks are attached with push pins. Many of the boards that are packing wifi ac don't mention their AC implementation is absolute garbage and can't do over 433Mbps (it's one of the minor differences between Taichi and Taichi Ultimate ; also MSI Edge has this concern). It's something to be mindful of if you actually use the wifi for anything whether it is fast internet (i.e. some areas have Gigabit internet) or streaming to a different device with ac wifi that is decently fast and over 1Gbps.
> 
> Someone over at Tom's hardware has been compiling the non power delivery information but it's by no means all inclusive:
> (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1IY6W6YhyjnzSvi8BqEqiK1xykSiTDF2Lt1FO8cNhI6I/edit?usp=sharing)
> 
> source: http://www.tomshardware.com/forum/id-3529650/z370-motherboards-lga1151v2-comparison-tables.html
> 
> 
> I've mentioned it earlier that someone has a similar comparison on hwtips Korea that has the display outputs (who buys an i9 and uses display outputs I have no idea) , VRM info (they include capacitors), audio and LAN. Post is here: https://hwtips.tistory.com/2458
> 
> 
> That's just the pump.
> 
> You need radiator + CPU block + tubing + fittings + coolant + drain/fill port (if needed for convenience) + etc. Fans I would probably buy separate.


My bad. The correct link shoul have been this (500 USD in the USA). https://www.ekwb.com/shop/ek-kit-rgb-360


----------



## porksmuggler

AlphaC said:


> Features don't come for free so generally you know so either a board is making less margins (i.e. profit) or there's something cut from it. Obviously you would rather go for lower margin boards rather than cut down ones.


I'm not referencing any user made charts. The features and VRM choice of the Gigabyte Aorus line put it in competition with the Asus Maximus line, and Asrock Taichi / Phantom Gaming 9 models. I think its short selling the Aorus Pro models by suggesting they're up against the STRIX, any of the MSI models announced (excepting the vastly overpriced "Godlike"), or the Asrock Phantom Gaming 6. 

The Gigabyte Aorus Pro Wifi in particular seems to be the best value proposition without any real feature compromise, given that the Asrock Phantom Gaming 9 comes at a significant additional cost for the extra features you mentioned, and the Asus Maximus line seems overpriced in general, as expected with Asus.

Maybe I seem like a Gigabyte fanboy, but I've never personally used anything other than Asus boards from what brands are currently available, though as a semi-retired system builder, I've built many Asrock and Gigabyte motherboard based systems for customers.

It seems like you're acknowledging most of the features beyond what's available on the Aorus Pro Wifi have limited use case, 3rd M.2, third party extra LANs, etc., so that's why I asked if maybe I was missing some meaningful features.


----------



## cletus-cassidy

AlphaC said:


> lb_felipe said:
> 
> 
> 
> Is an ASUS Maximus XI Formula with a be quiet! Dark Rock Pro 4 and an Intel Core i9-9000K a good match? If it is not, what is a good extremely quiet pump?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Anyone buying a i9-9900K with a decent motherboard is holding themselves back without going for custom water.
> 
> 
> I'd say a D5 pump with 280 or 360 copper radiator and a copper CPU waterblock is a minimum if you want to have a sufficient gain over the 4.7GHz all core clock.
> 
> 
> You shouldn't be buying the Formula instead of the Code or Hero if you aren't using custom water. The Formula omits a heatpipe and the extra fin area on the VRM heatsink in favor of the VRM waterblock.
> 
> 
> edit: for Brazil here's some parts I saw
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> D5 PWM pump from EKWB: https://gbawatercooler.com.br/shop/index.php?route=product/product&path=116_144_146&product_id=522
> EK Supremacy Evo CPU block: https://gbawatercooler.com.br/shop/index.php?route=product/product&path=116_118_125&product_id=513
> Nexxos ST30 360 slim radiator https://www.terabyteshop.com.br/produto/9688/radiador-alphacool-nexxxos-st30-puro-cobre-360mm
> 
> Nexxos ST30 360 slim radiator _retailer #2_ (not as good as hardwarelabs slim which I can't seem to find in Brazil): http://www.aquatuning.com.br/detail/index/sArticle/10/sCategory/8
> 
> 
> _Global shipping options_
> Aquacomputer Kryos NEXT CPU Block https://shop.aquacomputer.de/product_info.php?products_id=3504
> Heatkiller IV PRO CPU block http://shop.watercool.de/epages/WatercooleK.sf/en_GB/?ObjectPath=/Shops/WatercooleK/Products/18003
> 
> 
> _Budget kit with all copper parts, better than 360 AIO generally
> _
> EK kit with 6W pump , MX CPU block, and the weaker SE radiator https://www.newegg.com/global/br/Product/Product.aspx?Item=9SIAC8W4Z05835
> Swiftech 360 AIO with 6W pump ,copper block + copper radiator https://www.newegg.com/global/br/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835108223
> 
> 
> 
> see: https://www.xtremerigs.net/2015/02/11/radiator-round-2015/10/
Click to expand...

Based on Der8auer’s findings of the thicker solder and silicon on the chip, I wonder if custom water will even be enough. It might that the CPU water block cannot pull heat away quickly enough because of poor heat conductivity inside the IHS.


----------



## tconroy135

lb_felipe said:


> Thank you.
> 
> Please, recommend me all components and its quanties (tubes, fitings, coolant, etc) for a great water cooler to use with those components plus a be quiet! Dark Base Pro 900 rev. 2. I would like to make that thing extremely quiet.
> 
> My preference for the Formula is because just it and Extreme have 2.5+G ethernet.


Just wondering, but if the only reason you are leaning toward the Formula is for Ethernet Capacity, why not choose a different cheaper board that offers the Ethernet Capacity you are looking for at a much lower price point.


----------



## encrypted11

Read more


Spoiler






















 @AlphaC
https://www.intel.com/content/dam/w...heets/8th-gen-core-family-datasheet-vol-1.pdf


----------



## n4noAbyss

ASUSTECHMKTJJ said:


> As of now, GENE will not be available in the US. If we see enough demand possibly but due to high cost and specific focus on OC it is not being brought in. If you want the SAME VRM design then it would be the EXTREME. GENE and EXTREME share the same VRM. HERO/FORMULA/CODE are 8+2 no phase extender with OptiMos 302045 and the EXTREME and GENE are 10+2 no phase extender and use IR3555


This seems weird... Well if you aren't going to release the best mATX to us, can you give us a GOOD matx?

I'm frustrated that I have a matx case and a i9 9900 that's been on preorder for a few weeks and now I have no good mobo for it. (Yes I have a custom loop planned out).


----------



## AlphaC

I've sort of got a rough figure for power and current from some reviews (see post https://www.overclock.net/forum/27675542-post2421.html)


Interesting that 1.52V and 193A current is the suggested limit.


The datasheet wasn't up earlier, so it was added relatively recently today.


----------



## Robbært

ASUS ROG Maximus XI Hero (LGA 1151v2, Intel Z390);
9900K @4.8GHz 1,225V ~260W (NZXT Kraken X72 CPU @100C) VRM 81C 240W (4*2 SiC634)
VRM, not heatsink temperature can be seen under watermark
they also note custom water needed for better OC


----------



## eric98k

Anandtech updated their review of 9900K. 
https://www.anandtech.com/show/13400/intel-9th-gen-core-i9-9900k-i7-9700k-i5-9600k-review/21

Ian Cutress: I've redone the power numbers on the MSI MPG Z390 Gaming Edge AC. There was an issue with the ASRock Z370 motherboard supplying 1.47 volts at load. Benchmarking seems unaffected, but power numbers look a bit better, around 166W for the 9900K and 123W for the 9700K.


----------



## GreedyMuffin

So manually clocking a 9900K on a Taichi with additional cooling should be enough? 

I'm looking for a 5.1-5.2 ghz OC at around 1.3V.


----------



## Telstar

eric98k said:


> Anandtech updated their review of 9900K.
> https://www.anandtech.com/show/13400/intel-9th-gen-core-i9-9900k-i7-9700k-i5-9600k-review/21
> 
> Ian Cutress: I've redone the power numbers on the MSI MPG Z390 Gaming Edge AC. There was an issue with the ASRock Z370 motherboard supplying 1.47 volts at load. Benchmarking seems unaffected, but power numbers look a bit better, around 166W for the 9900K and 123W for the 9700K.



They were off the charts, compared to other reviews indeed.
These seem allright.


----------



## F-man4

GreedyMuffin said:


> So manually clocking a 9900K on a Taichi with additional cooling should be enough?
> 
> I'm looking for a 5.1-5.2 ghz OC at around 1.3V.


Better add a fan to VRM heatsink or change VRM heatsink to a monoblock.


----------



## nyk20z3

Any word on a Z390 Asus Apex ?


----------



## ReDXfiRe

Hello guys, ReDXfiRe (also known as Xanxo) from XanxoGaming here. Leave you a link with Data on Z390 Aorus Master with images.

https://www.facebook.com/xanxogaming/posts/2208431199169123 (never outlinked a FB website, if it's against OCN rules let me know and if so, excuse me and if need to edit lmk).

Might try to do some Youtube video later (but still need to finish a lot of articles before actually jump on that ship).

Normally I would measure the VRM temp from the back of the board with IR gun, but Z390 AORUS Master do have some thermal pads between the back of the plate and the armor it uses so I guess it does some thermal work there (maybe not that significant but probably contributes some, might try to take off armor later), but the last few GIGABYTE motherboards I've tested with IR GUN on the hottest spot (X470 AORUS G7Wifi armor off since it does not have any thermal pads, B450 AORUS Pro and some B360/H370 ones) the difference between HWInfo64 VRM Mosfet Temperature Sensor and IR gun has been around +1-2 degrees celsius so I can say I trust the HWInfo64 a lot by now.

The ES sample I have does not overclock well, but by now it seems unless doing some crazy stuff like delidding the 9900K, use a razor blade to remove the solder material and replace it with liquid metal (or even die lapping, all this info is from der8auer, kudos to him) the voltage you can feed without worrying too much on temps start from 1.25v (1.28 I'd suggest) to 1.32. More than 1.32v or even 1.32 might give you 100 degrees temps on which stress test you use. For these tests I'm using Prime95 26.6 (non-avx) and I'm running blender cycles (avx) and see if its stable.

Using 1.32v on BIOS (Z390 AORUS Master) LLC Turbo you can see the following temps on the CPU. VRM Temps are great according to HWInfo64 sensor. Open bench no fans except the AIO is on top of case pulling aire outside but it is pushing some decent air flow below to the VRM portion of the motherboard. Ambient temp is 20 degrees right now. Really impressed with the Z390 AORUS Master (according to HWInfo64).

Also did test on a ASrock Z370 FK6 (going to check which variant) with same voltage and CPU and used IR Gun and I measure up to 117 degrees after 20-25 mins prime95 26.6 and decided to just shut down in case OTP was not functionally working. Added a fan on the heatsink but temp just went down 5 degrees less, although but did run stress test for one hour and a half. Ambient temp for the FK6 was 17 degrees.

Really impressive stuff from Z390 AORUS Master. GBT has sampled me also the Z390 AORUS Pro (non Wi-Fi version) and I'll be doing the same test and measuring with IR gun; but should take another couple of days; got a lot of work and I'm a one man team for benchmark/testing and stuff.

Hope info helps you out. If you need any other info, even though is FB, actually you can find me there easier. Been reading this thread though the last week. Always kudos to AlphaC for all the info and insights he gives on this thread (and others).


----------



## lb_felipe

tconroy135 said:


> Just wondering, but if the only reason you are leaning toward the Formula is for Ethernet Capacity, why not choose a different cheaper board that offers the Ethernet Capacity you are looking for at a much lower price point.


Just because I prefer onboard whose connector is on the IO block to the offboard card. Among some reasons, esthetics and air flow enhancement are the main points.

What do you think about these:

Intel Core i9-9900K
ASUS ROG MAXIMUS XI FORMULA
G.SKILL [Trident Z RGB] F4-3733C17Q-64GTZR
ASUS ROG-STRIX-RTX2080TI-O11G-GAMING
Intel Optane SSD 905P 1.5TB AIC
WD Red 10TB
be quiet! Dark Base Pro 900 Black rev. 2
be quiet! Dark Power Pro 11 850W
EKWB EK-KIT RGB 360
Thermal Grizzly Hydronaut

Is it missing anything? I know I will have to provide distilled water. Beside that whot else should I have to have to?


----------



## marcolisi

After the first benchmarks of the asus maximus extreme with the i9-9900k overclocked to 5ghz on all 8 cores , I am still puzzled about the proper cooling system to buy....

Some review say that air cooling would work and others say that water cooling is a must.

So what should I go for ?

A NH-D15 or a water cooling system and which water cooling system that is not that high end and would not give issue while leaving on the pc 24/7 ?


----------



## tostitobandito

An NH-D15 might be ok at 5GHz, but if you want to go anywhere beyond that you will want at the very least a large CLC in the 280-360mm range. If you want to go beyond 5.2GHz you'll want a custom loop.

GN did a stream last night where they OC'd a delidded 9900K on the Maximus Hero with a custom loop including a massive 540mm radiator and some extremely loud fans on it. He got to 5.3 but I don't think he made it to 5.4. At 5.3 I think his prime temps were in the mid 80's with that setup (an air cooler would have exceeded tjmax for sure).

But yeah, I'm in the same boat building a new rig with a 9900K and I opted for a 360mm CLC so I can at least overclock it to 5GHz or slightly beyond with acceptable temps.


----------



## bastian

tostitobandito said:


> An NH-D15 might be ok at 5GHz, but if you want to go anywhere beyond that you will want at the very least a large CLC in the 280-360mm range. If you want to go beyond 5.2GHz you'll want a custom loop.
> 
> GN did a stream last night where they OC'd a delidded 9900K on the Maximus Hero with a custom loop including a massive 540mm radiator and some extremely loud fans on it. He got to 5.3 but I don't think he made it to 5.4. At 5.3 I think his prime temps were in the mid 80's with that setup (an air cooler would have exceeded tjmax for sure).
> 
> But yeah, I'm in the same boat building a new rig with a 9900K and I opted for a 360mm CLC so I can at least overclock it to 5GHz or slightly beyond with acceptable temps.


My NH-D15S on a 8086k does 5.2Ghz 1.32 no problem. Load in Cinebench and Aida64 is 80 degrees. Liquid metal of course. I refuse to use AIO's anymore. They are all cheap and pump noise is annoying.

There appears to be heavy variance on 9900k's in regards to heat/voltage.


----------



## doom26464

Im in the same boat. Cooling this thing will be a pain. 


I keep hearing high end air is just as good as most AIO 280-360mm coolers.


----------



## SpirosKGR

Will a asrock z390 itx phantom be enough for at least a 8700K @5GHZ oc for only 24/7 gaming usage? or it is a valueable chance to face off thermal throttling / power limit issues? 
or to go with asus z390 rog strix itx instead?

*sorry for my bad english guys


----------



## octiny

SpirosKGR said:


> Will a asrock z390 itx phantom be enough for at least a 8700K @5GHZ oc for only 24/7 gaming usage? or it is a valueable chance to face off thermal throttling / power limit issues?
> or to go with asus z390 rog strix itx instead?
> 
> *sorry for my bad english guys


Easily. In my itx build, currently running a delidded w/copper IHS 8086K @ 5.2ghz w/ 32GB 3733 in my Dan A4 case w/ a 545LC on the Z370 Fatality ITX. Which is essentially the same hardware as the new Phantom ITX, except Phantom has a slightly bigger heatsink to better cope with a 9900K. My understanding is that the Asus Z390-I is better than their previous Z370-I (30 amp vs 45 amp power stages w/ better vrm cooling), but still not as good as the Asrock Fatality/Phantom ITX boards (60 amp power stages). 


Edit: On another note, the Z390-I does look pretty sweet in terms of the actual design/looks


----------



## the1corrupted

octiny said:


> Easily. In my itx build, currently running a delidded w/copper IHS 8086K @ 5.2ghz w/ 32GB 3733 in my Dan A4 case w/ a 545LC on the Z370 Fatality ITX. Which is essentially the same hardware as the new Phantom ITX, except Phantom has a slightly bigger heatsink to better cope with a 9900K. My understanding is that the Asus Z390-I is better than their previous Z370-I (30 amp vs 45 amp power stages w/ better vrm cooling), but still not as good as the Asrock Fatality/Phantom ITX boards (60 amp power stages).
> 
> 
> Edit: On another note, the Z390-I does look pretty sweet in terms of the actual design/looks


Powerdraw is another factor, however. Running an 8086K @ 5 Ghz results in an average of 240-250W pulled from the wall. The 9900K will pull another 20W on top of that @ 5Ghz for the added cores.

A GTX 1080 (non-Ti) can consume somewhere between 260 and 290W on stock configuration.

EDIT: I was *WRONG*.

When I run my SF-600 at 350W for a couple hours, it gets quite warm. Heat degrades your components, after all. I had a Silverstone SFX-700 before the Corsair supply and it blew a cap. Luckily it did not kill my computer. (I am not buying Silverstone again). Choose your power target wisely.


----------



## XanthiSkye

I can't decide which motherboard i should get! I will buy 9900k and don't plan on overclocking it over 5Ghz. What's a vfm mobo for me? I don't really mind about features like wifi, 3 m2 etc


----------



## Shiftstealth

AlphaC said:


> Z370-E STRIX appears to be exclusively Vishay SiRA12 + SiRA14dp. I haven't seen an Onsemi version.
> 
> Z370-A seems to have two variants. One is the same as the Z370-E STRIX and Z370-F STRIX. One has OnSemi 4C09 + 4C06 similar to Gigabyte's boards. It's likely a supplier variance. Because of it's status as a volume board there needs to be an alternate part when the Vishay mosfet parts are not available or low stock.
> 
> The Z370-A's Vishay variant seems to heat up more (per reviews) for whatever reason. On paper the Vishay variant has faster switching times but that is going to be limited by the dual driver used. It's believed to be a Richtek part.
> 
> Unless you are thinking of pushing over 20A per mosfet (so over 160A to the CPU, which is over Intel's 138A spec) I wouldn't worry too much about it. The SirA12dp is package limited to 25A. If you cool the VRM both should have comparable results if ASUS felt they are interchangeable. If you aren't using AVX2 instructions (such as rendering or encoding) you will likely not see any thermal limitations, since you would need to push roughly 160-180W before you see the mosfets start to hit a higher temperature and even a 5GHz CPU will consume ~140-150W if not using AVX instructions. The design operating point was clearly non-delidded chips that are Intel TIM limited to around 140-150W.
> 
> Asrock's Fatal1ty K6 or Extreme4 have a better setup for similar monetary outlay (i.e. price) but if you can find the Z370-A or Z370-E for cheap (<$130) I wouldn't hesitate to buy them provided you update your BIOS to avoid LLC issues.
> 
> In summary, if you aren't going for a $200+ MSRP *** "high end" board (such as Gigabyte Gaming 7, Asus ROG Apex/Formula/Hero, or Asrock Taichi), I would still recommend the Asrock K6 or Extreme4. The Extreme4 has been recommended by PC Gameshardware.de, hardware.info, hardwareunboxed, etc. The K6 is a slightly better version of it with Debug LED, dual LAN, an external base clock generator, & power/reset buttons. To get a Debug LED on other vendors' midrange boards you need to buy a MSI M5 , or Gigabyte Gaming 5.
> 
> In fact Level1techs also uploaded a new video on the Extreme4 to explore how Asrock cut costs and they couldn't find anything major (even though I listed what they cut in the above paragraph):
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=guoufY-F97I
> 
> K6 voltage regulator overview on hardwaresecrets http://www.hardwaresecrets.com/asrock-fatal1ty-z370-gaming-k6-motherboard/5/
> 
> *** MSRP doesn't mean much. A product is only worth how much people are willing to pay for it! The massive drop on boards valued at $180-200 such as the Z370-F STRIX , Z370 Pro Carbon & M5, and Z370 Ultra Gaming 2.0 demonstrates it. Those boards were worth about 20% more at launch and now they are all around the $150 area.




Alpha, I was looking at purchasing an i9 9900k, and i already have the Prime Z370-A. Do you think i'd be safe to run an i9 9900k @ stock on the Prime Z370-A?


I'd still rep you if i could.



EDIT:
Looking at this review: https://www.overclock3d.net/reviews/cpu_mainboard/asus_z370_maximus_x_apex_review/3
When the i7 8700k is pushed to 1.32v the VRMs go up to 89c during AVX loads. From what i was able to find that is about 225W package power. Which is around where the i9 9900k draws. So is 89c a safe temp for the VRMs? I believe some are safe up to 125c, not that you'd want to push that. Mostly i plan on gaming so the 89C is really a worst case scenario, and not what i typically will put the Z370-A through.

Thanks!


3rd Ninja Edit:

So for anyone researching this. If you watch Buildzoids video here:
https://www.reddit.com/r/hardware/comments/94qepg/buildzoid_what_are_safe_vrm_temperatures/

He covers a lot, i only watched up to the Mosfet part, but they are "safe" up to 150C internally, but have bad readings. So that 89C outside reading is actually more like 100C internally. However they recommend operating them around 125C for longevity, and only 150C briefly. So 100C is more than safe. So i'm fairly certain an i9 9900k pulling 225W and putting the Mosfets at 89C at the VRM reading would leave plenty of room to be safe. Would i overclock the i9 9900k on the Z370-A? Doesn't sound like a good idea, but stock it should be fine for a long time.


----------



## Telstar

nyk20z3 said:


> Any word on a Z390 Asus Apex ?


No apex at this round. Gene or Extreme offer the best OC of Asus offering.


----------



## the1corrupted

XanthiSkye said:


> I can't decide which motherboard i should get! I will buy 9900k and don't plan on overclocking it over 5Ghz. What's a vfm mobo for me? I don't really mind about features like wifi, 3 m2 etc


I would recommend anything but the cheapest to be honest. I looked over MSI's MPG (Pro-Gaming) lineup from the Z90M to the Pro Carbon AC. Seems like those boards should be able to pull it off based on hardware alone. I believe that falls well within the $200 range for a motherboard.


----------



## webwilli

Telstar said:


> No apex at this round. Gene or Extreme offer the best OC of Asus offering.


There is an Apex listed on some germany stores:

https://geizhals.de/asus-rog-maximus-xi-apex-90mb0xv0-m0eay0-a1906336.html?hloc=de


----------



## octiny

the1corrupted said:


> Powerdraw is another factor, however. Running an 8086K @ 5 Ghz results in an average of 240-250W pulled from the wall. The 9900K will pull another 20W on top of that @ 5Ghz for the added cores.
> 
> A GTX 1080 (non-Ti) can consume somewhere between 260 and 290W on stock configuration.
> 
> So it also depends on if you have full ATX power supply support. I would not rely on an SFX power supply to push that much juice. The most they go up to is 600/700W. You can have all the power stages in the world until your power supply starts dropping voltage.
> 
> When I run my SF-600 at 400W for a couple hours, it gets quite warm. Heat degrades your components, after all. I had a Silverstone SFX-700 before the Corsair supply and it blew a cap. Luckily it did not kill my computer. (I am not buying Silverstone again).


Just like to clarify things so people do not read your post and think it's the correct info in regards to wattage.

A GTX 1080 absolutely does NOT draw 260-290 stock. Sure, If you're talking about the WHOLE computer from the wall with a 1080. Stock for just the card pulls around 180W, with great overclock & +20 on the power limit putting it between 205w-210w. 

In regards to an 8700K, that also does NOT draw more than 125-135W @ 5GHZ unless you are pushing the vcore to unrealistic levels/got a crap chip. Even pushing 100% AVX hardcore which would puts it only between 155w-165w.

Personally running a SX650-G on it and rarely pulls over 510w from the wall @ 4K with all components OC'd & pushed to the fullest (full load on main components) with respect to temps which are great by the way for an SFX setup. Again, that's for an OC'd 2080 TI (310w PL) & delidded w/ copper ihs 8086K 5.2ghz 1.32v 545LC. That's measured from the wall, take efficiency into play and the actual amount is even less.

Edit: It just seems like you had a string of bad luck with your build or poor ventilation.


----------



## marcolisi

tostitobandito said:


> An NH-D15 might be ok at 5GHz, but if you want to go anywhere beyond that you will want at the very least a large CLC in the 280-360mm range. If you want to go beyond 5.2GHz you'll want a custom loop.
> 
> GN did a stream last night where they OC'd a delidded 9900K on the Maximus Hero with a custom loop including a massive 540mm radiator and some extremely loud fans on it. He got to 5.3 but I don't think he made it to 5.4. At 5.3 I think his prime temps were in the mid 80's with that setup (an air cooler would have exceeded tjmax for sure).
> 
> But yeah, I'm in the same boat building a new rig with a 9900K and I opted for a 360mm CLC so I can at least overclock it to 5GHz or slightly beyond with acceptable temps.


Which 360mm CLC are going to buy?
Can you share the model please?


----------



## marcolisi

bastian said:


> tostitobandito said:
> 
> 
> 
> An NH-D15 might be ok at 5GHz, but if you want to go anywhere beyond that you will want at the very least a large CLC in the 280-360mm range. If you want to go beyond 5.2GHz you'll want a custom loop.
> 
> GN did a stream last night where they OC'd a delidded 9900K on the Maximus Hero with a custom loop including a massive 540mm radiator and some extremely loud fans on it. He got to 5.3 but I don't think he made it to 5.4. At 5.3 I think his prime temps were in the mid 80's with that setup (an air cooler would have exceeded tjmax for sure).
> 
> But yeah, I'm in the same boat building a new rig with a 9900K and I opted for a 360mm CLC so I can at least overclock it to 5GHz or slightly beyond with acceptable temps.
> 
> 
> 
> My NH-D15S on a 8086k does 5.2Ghz 1.32 no problem. Load in Cinebench and Aida64 is 80 degrees. Liquid metal of course. I refuse to use AIO's anymore. They are all cheap and pump noise is annoying.
> 
> There appears to be heavy variance on 9900k's in regards to heat/voltage.
Click to expand...

Hi there!

Is the NH-D15S the best air cooling fan?

What is the best air cooling fan that I could by for the 9900K on a asus maximus extreme ?


----------



## marcolisi

doom26464 said:


> Im in the same boat. Cooling this thing will be a pain.
> 
> 
> I keep hearing high end air is just as good as most AIO 280-360mm coolers.


I have read that too, this is why I am opting first for the best air cooling system and then based on the results , I would decide to stay with it or going toward water cooling . I am really afraid of water cooling and complications about its use and its maintainance.


----------



## the1corrupted

octiny said:


> Just like to clarify things so people do not read your post and think it's the correct info in regards to wattage.
> 
> A GTX 1080 absolutely does NOT draw 260-290 stock. Sure, If you're talking about the WHOLE computer from the wall with a 1080. Stock for just the card pulls around 180W, with great overclock & +20 on the power limit putting it between 205w-210w.
> 
> In regards to an 8700K, that also does NOT draw more than 125-135W @ 5GHZ unless you are pushing the vcore to unrealistic levels/got a crap chip. Even pushing 100% AVX hardcore which would puts it only between 155w-165w.
> 
> Personally running a SX650-G on it and rarely pulls over 510w from the wall @ 4K with all components OC'd & pushed to the fullest (full load on main components) with respect to temps which are great by the way for an SFX setup. Again, that's for an OC'd 2080 TI (310w PL) & delidded w/ copper ihs 8086K 5.2ghz 1.32v 545LC. That's measured from the wall, take efficiency into play and the actual amount is even less.
> 
> Edit: It just seems like you had a string of bad luck with your build or poor ventilation.


I might have been misinterpreting numbers for all those reviews then o.o Nevermind. OC to your hearts content, apparently. Glad to be wrong though.


----------



## ReDXfiRe

marcolisi said:


> I have read that too, this is why I am opting first for the best air cooling system and then based on the results , I would decide to stay with it or going toward water cooling . I am really afraid of water cooling and complications about its use and its maintainance.


I can confirm my Noctua NH D15 is giving a run for its money againt the CLC 280 I have. Pretty much same temps.


----------



## octiny

the1corrupted said:


> I might have been misinterpreting numbers for all those reviews then o.o Nevermind. OC to your hearts content, apparently. Glad to be wrong though.


No worries, it's always best to look for the reviewers who can measure the individual wattage for each component, such as Tomshardware, Anandtech etc. Even with them, numbers are sometimes inflated or skewed due to worse than average chip/high temps aka poor tim/overly high voltage/bad bios settings. On the whole, the majority of review sites measure the whole system when they put out consumption numbers or don't subtract idle components correctly when using the kill-o-meter. Definitely can get confusing, especially in an SFX build.


----------



## nyk20z3

Telstar said:


> No apex at this round. Gene or Extreme offer the best OC of Asus offering.


Sucks I had the last 2 Apex boards and they are wicked....


----------



## sdch

eric98k said:


>



8086K: 94.45W
7700K: 95.14W
8700K: 150.91W

Uh, does this seem off to anyone else?


----------



## tostitobandito

marcolisi said:


> Which 360mm CLC are going to buy?
> Can you share the model please?



I bought the Corsair H150i Pro and replaced all the fans with Noctua NF-A12x25's for better airflow/pressure and the same or less noise. The pump/radiator is the same Asetek gen6 unit in any of the newer AIO's from Corsair, NZXT, Thermaltake, or Coolermaster from the last year or so. The fans, RGB/design, and software are the main differences.


----------



## Ichirou

AlphaC said:


> You didn't specify workload _or where you can buy from_ but anything from truly midrange z390 or anything closer to the higher end of Z370 should do fine.
> 
> Boards such as the ROG Hero (z370/Z390), Asus Z390-A / STRIX-E / STRIX-F boards, any of the Aorus Z390 boards (the Pro is a safe bet as it is the same as Ultra in terms of power design and retains the heatpipe), Z370 Gaming 7 if you get one without the heatsink issue (some have a contact issue at the VRM heatsink), Asrock Taichi (z370/z390) for example. All these boards are using at least 8 phases digitally controlled with IR35201 or ISL69138 PWM (i.e. high end , more accurate) and either powerblocks or powerstages rather than older technology less efficient Powerpaks. For outright ease of use, the ASUS Z390 boards probably are easiest due to the new AI overclock software (it identifies silicon quality), but if you're willing to plug in a voltage and multiplier for core ratio and uncore ratio then run a stress test or two (not sure which stress test AI OC uses for stability so manual OC might be more stable) it might not be worth the price premium.
> 
> If you're not using AVX instruction-sets (especially AVX2 which is even higher power draw) then the Asrock Z370 K6 has had decent results (it also uses a IR35201 PWM & powerblocks) with hex-cores, whereas the Z390 Phantom Gaming 6 that came after has a new PWM from uPI semiconductor that is used on lower end MSI boards so I don't have much confidence in it. Additionally, the Z390 Phantom Gaming 6 is priced relatively high relative to its predecessor and other competing boards. There's really no other Z370 board than the Gigabyte Z370 Gaming 7 that really stands out vs Z390. It's a testament to the superiority of the Z370 K6 design vs other midrange Z370 boards when every other manufacturer had to ditch their entire mid-range power design for Z390 and Asrock kept theirs , made heatsink bigger, and somehow decided to cheapen the PWM. My biggest complaint with the Z370 K6 overall was the ridiculously outdated IO choices: it has a VGA port and DVI. Right now it's not really as good of a price/performance board due to its end of life status.
> 
> There's other boards such as the Z390 Pro Carbon and Z390 Edge AC that haven't been tested yet. We do know that boards such as the Z370 Pro Carbon / Ultra Gaming / STRIX Z370-E / Z370-F are not that great relative to their Z390 counterparts which have been upgraded.


Thanks for your reply, and sorry for the delay in replying back.

Judging from what you've described, it seems that the Z370 boards are largely inadequate and should be avoided for their better Z390 counterparts, so I'll do that. I looked into the Z390 Aorus Pro just now, and people have been reporting that their BIOS and software is kind of garbage (no surprise there), so I'm considering sticking to ASUS even if it costs a higher premium. And I've heard from many friends that ASRock has a terrible-looking BIOS, so I'll just avoid them in general.

Looking back at your chart from page 216 (I'm not sure if you've uploaded a more recent one), it seems that the ASUS XI Hero is the lowest one in the green area, but it does cost around $100 more than the Aorus Pro. However, you obviously know better than me; would the ASUS Z390-A be adequate for my 8086k at 5 GHz all-core? It costs about the same price as the Aorus Pro. I'm really interested in it as I don't need a ton of bloat features that I'll never use anyway. I also don't need Wi-Fi, if that's useful to know.

My computer will be used for gaming and streaming, watching movies, Photoshop, and Premiere Pro. Primarily those. I don't really know what AVX means.

Thank you very much!


----------



## octiny

sdch said:


> 8086K: 94.45W
> 7700K: 95.14W
> 8700K: 150.91W
> 
> Uh, does this seem off to anyone else?



7700K ran extremely hot on some chips, as did the 8700K due to poor TIM application which would explain the inflated numbers. Possibly had it on auto voltage settings w/ mce on as seen in this chart (stock clocks 8086K auto voltage = high @ 1.370v in chart) as well. A lot of reviewers seem to be having issues with auto settings on the 9900k, similar to the 8700K. Here's from their actual 8086K review, albeit still a tad bit high on the wattage for the overclocks due to voltage (5ghz 1.364v) but more inline with what one would expect.

Stock all-core boost 4.4ghz: 95w
5ghz overclock: 152W 1.364v (higher than normal voltage for an 8086k)


----------



## AlphaC

nyk20z3 said:


> Any word on a Z390 Asus Apex ?


Only Maximus XI Extreme , no Apex


-----


https://www.chiphell.com/portal.php?mod=view&aid=20933&page=5
Z390 Taichi teardown



Z390 Aorus Master thermal result in CB R15 , no indication of overclocking involved
https://quasarzone.co.kr/bbs/board.php?bo_table=qc_qsz&wr_id=187621









https://www.profesionalreview.com/2018/10/21/asus-rog-strix-z390-e-gaming-review/
STRIX Z390-E : Onsemi NCP302045 implementation



-------
MSI slides
https://gigglehd.com/gg/review/3700756






























-------


Shiftstealth said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> Alpha, I was looking at purchasing an i9 9900k, and i already have the Prime Z370-A. Do you think i'd be safe to run an i9 9900k @ stock on the Prime Z370-A?
> 
> 
> I'd still rep you if i could.
> 
> 
> 
> EDIT:
> Looking at this review: https://www.overclock3d.net/reviews/cpu_mainboard/asus_z370_maximus_x_apex_review/3
> When the i7 8700k is pushed to 1.32v the VRMs go up to 89c during AVX loads. From what i was able to find that is about 225W package power. Which is around where the i9 9900k draws. So is 89c a safe temp for the VRMs? I believe some are safe up to 125c, not that you'd want to push that. Mostly i plan on gaming so the 89C is really a worst case scenario, and not what i typically will put the Z370-A through.
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> 
> 3rd Ninja Edit:
> 
> So for anyone researching this. If you watch Buildzoids video here:
> https://www.reddit.com/r/hardware/comments/94qepg/buildzoid_what_are_safe_vrm_temperatures/
> 
> He covers a lot, i only watched up to the Mosfet part, but they are "safe" up to 150C internally, but have bad readings. So that 89C outside reading is actually more like 100C internally. However they recommend operating them around 125C for longevity, and only 150C briefly. So 100C is more than safe. So i'm fairly certain an i9 9900k pulling 225W and putting the Mosfets at 89C at the VRM reading would leave plenty of room to be safe. Would i overclock the i9 9900k on the Z370-A? Doesn't sound like a good idea, but stock it should be fine for a long time.





Spoiler






Spoiler



The Z370-A and the STRIX Z370-E / Z370-F share a power design. Reportedly they have a 200W power limit in BIOS. As long as you aren't overclocking the i9-9900K it should respect the PL1 (85W) and PL2 (210W) limits set by Intel.



If you already have the board and Asus has the BIOS update for it, I wouldn't hesitate to try a i9-9900K at stock settings.




sdch said:


> 8086K: 94.45W
> 7700K: 95.14W
> 8700K: 150.91W
> 
> Uh, does this seem off to anyone else?


Probably with stock settings and short/long duration power limits set to Intel spec , though I would expect i7-8700K to be closer to ~130W unless it's an AVX load.




tostitobandito said:


> I bought the Corsair H150i Pro and replaced all the fans with Noctua NF-A12x25's for better airflow/pressure and the same or less noise. The pump/radiator is the same Asetek gen6 unit in any of the newer AIO's from Corsair, NZXT, Thermaltake, or Coolermaster from the last year or so. The fans, RGB/design, and software are the main differences.


I would have gone for a Swiftech H360 X3 if it's for i9. (https://www.swiftech.com/drivex3aio.aspx, https://www.newegg.com/global/br/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835108223)
It's fully copper unlike Corsair's Asetek built solution so you don't have galvanic corrosion risk , have expandability, and have higher thermal conductivity to the coolant.



Alphacool is supposed to launch a D5 pump powered Eisbaer Extreme but no word on release date and price. At its current pricing , EK-MLC Phoenix is just really expensive pre-fab watercooling.





Ichirou said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for your reply, and sorry for the delay in replying back.
> 
> Judging from what you've described, it seems that the Z370 boards are largely inadequate and should be avoided for their better Z390 counterparts, so I'll do that. I looked into the Z390 Aorus Pro just now, and people have been reporting that their BIOS and software is kind of garbage (no surprise there), so I'm considering sticking to ASUS even if it costs a higher premium. And I've heard from many friends that ASRock has a terrible-looking BIOS, so I'll just avoid them in general.
> 
> Looking back at your chart from page 216 (I'm not sure if you've uploaded a more recent one), it seems that the ASUS XI Hero is the lowest one in the green area, but it does cost around $100 more than the Aorus Pro. However, you obviously know better than me; would the ASUS Z390-A be adequate for my 8086k at 5 GHz all-core? It costs about the same price as the Aorus Pro. I'm really interested in it as I don't need a ton of bloat features that I'll never use anyway. I also don't need Wi-Fi, if that's useful to know.
> 
> My computer will be used for gaming and streaming, watching movies, Photoshop, and Premiere Pro. Primarily those. I don't really know what AVX means.
> 
> Thank you very much!


Video editing and transcoding tends to use AVX instruction-sets on the CPU. Z390-A should be plenty fine for the i7-8086K , when I made the Z390 chart I was keeping i9 in mind with a bit of leeway.

We've already seen the Z390 Taichi , Z390 ROG Hero, and Z390 Aorus Master with the i9.

When we get a more accurate picture of the boards' performance I will probably adjust the chart accordingly.


From RedXFire's testing with i9 on the Z370 K6 I would think the i9 on the Z390 version isn't going to be that great. 



---------------------------------


XanthiSkye said:


> I can't decide which motherboard i should get! I will buy 9900k and don't plan on overclocking it over 5Ghz. What's a vfm mobo for me? I don't really mind about features like wifi, 3 m2 etc


It is quite risky (at this point without a bunch of reviews) to buy anything lower than a Z390 Aorus Pro/Elite , Z390-A , or the Z390 ACE if you plan to use AVX instructions with an i9.

As not everyone is going to drop ~$200 on a motherboard when using an i9, it would be interesting to see the results with the i9 on the :
Asrock Z390 Gaming 6 / Extreme4 (I have my doubts)

Asus lower end STRIX Z390-H and TUF boards (TUF is basically 8 phases of cheaper Onsemi mosfets , of unknown method to obtain the 8 phases)

Gigabyte non Aorus boards (using a push pin heatsink though 10 phases of cheaper Onsemi mosfets)

MSI Tomahawk & Edge (I have many concerns about the Tomahawk as it might not be using doublers to reach 8 phases)


Right now we don't have a complete picture so unless you need to buy it now I'd wait for more coverage.


----------



## tostitobandito

AlphaC said:


> I would have gone for a Swiftech H360 X3 if it's for i9. (https://www.swiftech.com/drivex3aio.aspx, https://www.newegg.com/global/br/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835108223)
> It's fully copper unlike Corsair's Asetek built solution so you don't have galvanic corrosion risk , have expandability, and have higher thermal conductivity to the coolant.
> 
> Alphacool is supposed to launch a D5 pump powered Eisbaer Extreme but no word on release date and price. At its current pricing , EK-MLC Phoenix is just really expensive pre-fab watercooling.



I agree that the Swiftechs look like quality units from what I've read, but they aren't really CLC's. They are all in one open loops. Maintenance is simpler than with a larger custom loop, but you still need to flush/clean the loop and worry about coolant, additives, and all that (I've seen some reviews saying they were gunky and needed to be flushed out of the box). Also potential leaks if you screw something up badly.


I debated a custom loop but decided I just didn't want the hassle and I'd go with a 5 year warranty CLC instead and then re-evaluate in several years. If I wanted something more than this, I would've just built a loop rather than buying a half-measure like the Swiftech. I guess the Swiftechs and other similar AIO open/semi-open products have a niche for smaller cases which don't have room for a reservoir, but I would've just bought a slightly larger case if I was going to do a loop and go custom.


Anyways, that's just me. If you want to have an open loop to play with but don't want the expense of a custom setup, I can certainly see these being appealing at the price they're at.


----------



## Shiftstealth

AlphaC said:


> Only Maximus XI Extreme , no Apex
> 
> 
> -----
> 
> 
> https://www.chiphell.com/portal.php?mod=view&aid=20933&page=5
> Z390 Taichi teardown
> 
> 
> 
> Z390 Aorus Master thermal result in CB R15 , no indication of overclocking involved
> https://quasarzone.co.kr/bbs/board.php?bo_table=qc_qsz&wr_id=187621
> View attachment 225910
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.profesionalreview.com/2018/10/21/asus-rog-strix-z390-e-gaming-review/
> STRIX Z390-E : Onsemi NCP302045 implementation
> 
> 
> 
> -------
> MSI slides
> https://gigglehd.com/gg/review/3700756
> 
> View attachment 225918
> View attachment 225920
> View attachment 225922
> View attachment 225924
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -------
> 
> 
> 
> The Z370-A and the STRIX Z370-E / Z370-F share a power design. Reportedly they have a 200W power limit in BIOS. As long as you aren't overclocking the i9-9900K it should respect the PL1 (85W) and PL2 (210W) limits set by Intel.
> 
> 
> 
> If you already have the board and Asus has the BIOS update for it, I wouldn't hesitate to try a i9-9900K at stock settings.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Probably with stock settings and short/long duration power limits set to Intel spec , though I would expect i7-8700K to be closer to ~130W unless it's an AVX load.
> 
> 
> 
> I would have gone for a Swiftech H360 X3 if it's for i9. (https://www.swiftech.com/drivex3aio.aspx, https://www.newegg.com/global/br/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835108223)
> It's fully copper unlike Corsair's Asetek built solution so you don't have galvanic corrosion risk , have expandability, and have higher thermal conductivity to the coolant.
> 
> 
> 
> Alphacool is supposed to launch a D5 pump powered Eisbaer Extreme but no word on release date and price. At its current pricing , EK-MLC Phoenix is just really expensive pre-fab watercooling.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Video editing and transcoding tends to use AVX instruction-sets on the CPU. Z390-A should be plenty fine for the i7-8086K , when I made the Z390 chart I was keeping i9 in mind with a bit of leeway.
> 
> We've already seen the Z390 Taichi , Z390 ROG Hero, and Z390 Aorus Master with the i9.
> 
> When we get a more accurate picture of the boards' performance I will probably adjust the chart accordingly.
> 
> 
> From RedXFire's testing with i9 on the Z370 K6 I would think the i9 on the Z390 version isn't going to be that great.
> 
> 
> 
> ---------------------------------
> 
> 
> It is quite risky (at this point without a bunch of reviews) to buy anything lower than a Z390 Aorus Pro/Elite , Z390-A , or the Z390 ACE if you plan to use AVX instructions with an i9.
> 
> As not everyone is going to drop ~$200 on a motherboard when using an i9, it would be interesting to see the results with the i9 on the :
> Asrock Z390 Gaming 6 / Extreme4 (I have my doubts)
> 
> Asus lower end STRIX Z390-H and TUF boards (TUF is basically 8 phases of cheaper Onsemi mosfets , of unknown method to obtain the 8 phases)
> 
> Gigabyte non Aorus boards (using a push pin heatsink though 10 phases of cheaper Onsemi mosfets)
> 
> MSI Tomahawk & Edge (I have many concerns about the Tomahawk as it might not be using doublers to reach 8 phases)
> 
> 
> Right now we don't have a complete picture so unless you need to buy it now I'd wait for more coverage.



Thanks for those images. That is quite the binning difference between the 9700k, and 9900k. 1.32v @5.0Ghz boost on the 9900K, but 1.37v for 4.9Ghz boost on the 9700K.


Yowza.


----------



## kens30

Hi everyone.
I just wanted to know if i could run a core i9 9900k at least default clocks on my current Maximus X Code.
I have no idea about what VRM's it is using, if someone knows the specs of my mobo vrm i would really appreciate it.


----------



## AlphaC

kens30 said:


> Hi everyone.
> I just wanted to know if i could run a core i9 9900k at least default clocks on my current Maximus X Code.
> I have no idea about what VRM's it is using, if someone knows the specs of my mobo vrm i would really appreciate it.


Should be fine, it's using 8x 50A Infineon Optimos powerblocks for V_Core.


----------



## kens30

AlphaC said:


> Should be fine, it's using 8x 50A Infineon Optimos powerblocks for V_Core.


So to get a better idea is it similar to the Maxumus XI hero or closer to the strix XI boards in quality.
Sorry for asking these type of questions but i have no idea of all these vrm's, mosfets, number of phases and doublers.


----------



## Robbært

kens30 said:


> So to get a better idea is it similar to the Maxumus XI hero or closer to the strix XI boards in quality.
> Sorry for asking these type of questions but i have no idea of all these vrm's, mosfets, number of phases and doublers.


All ASUS XI boards have DrMOS, it better.
ASUS X Code have 8* SiZF906DT, it 41A @70C(air near VRM) Dual N-MOSFET with integrated diodes.
You don't want them go over 130C.

Non overclocked 9900K drain up to 130A, OC 5GHz near 190A
Overclocked 8700k want 150A
If you can keep em under 70C your ASUS X Code should be enough to OC 9900K

Using extra cooler for VRM area should be good idea.
You have 105C capacitors near VRM area so it better to keep under 95 with extra cooling.


----------



## Glottis

Are you guys aware of this? Some motherboards power limit 9900K to 95W.


----------



## eric98k

https://gigglehd.com/gg/review/3700756
MSI OC Workshop: 
Specs of MSI Z390 boards lineup (11):


MEG Godlike & Ace
MPG Pro Carbon (AC) & Gaming Plus
MPG Edge AC (ATX, mATX, ITX)
A Pro
MAG Tomahawk & M Mortar

Power phases:

MEG Godlike: 16+0+2
MEG Ace: 12+0+1
MPG I Gaming Edge AC: 6+1+1
MPG Pro Carbon (AC): 5(->10)+1+1
MPG Edge AC: 5(->10)+1+1
MPG M Edge AC: 4(->8)+1+1
MPG Gaming Plus: 4(->8)+1+1
MAG Tomahawk: 4(->8)+1+1
MAG M Mortar: 4(->8)+1+1
A Pro: 4(->8)+1+1


----------



## F-man4

the1corrupted said:


> When I run my SF-600 at 350W for a couple hours, it gets quite warm. Heat degrades your components, after all. I had a Silverstone SFX-700 before the Corsair supply and it blew a cap. Luckily it did not kill my computer. (I am not buying Silverstone again). Choose your power target wisely.


How can you put an overclockable 2080Ti (which requires 700W+ and it has already doomed several RM650xes) on a SFX-PSU build without Silverstone?
Corsair has no 601W+ SFX PSUs.
EVGA has no 651W+ SFX PSUs.
FSP has no 451W+ SFX PSUs.
......


----------



## asdkj1740

msi engineer toppc lin talks about "can 9900k really handle 5ghz easily?"

1. yes, it is easy but also depends on the silicon lottery of the cpu and what software for testing 5ghz, and what is 5ghz like all cores 5ghz or few cores at 5ghz only

2. msi version of cpuz can reflect the true cpu voltage reading, while the normal version cant 

3. 1.35v 5ghz is already above the average of the silicon lottery.

4. cpu usage is an essential figure to see whether the cpu is throttling or not, 100% is a must to show the cpu is running without throttling

5. >10c difference among cores in 9900k is normal. ~20c is acceptable.
on x299 we can adjust independ voltages of each core to reduce the temp differential between cores.

6. becuase of the high temp differential among cores in 9900k, intel allows the standard of 9900k tjmax to be 115c, those z390 positioning as overclocking having 100c thermal limit are silly. 

7. in godlike once users tweak the cpu ratio, all limitaion of power will be removed correspondingly.

8. if you are afraid of 115c cpu temp, and you are not luckly enough/rich enough to get the best silicon lottery's 9900k, then
dont use 9900k. the stereotype of 100c is no longer suitable for 9900k.

9. cpu cooling is very very important, as well as the cpu lottery. then you need a good mobo with good vrm.

10. intel turbo is good for general users, dont chase for all cores 5ghz for nothing and without considering your constriants/usages.

11. different prime95 version would give you different cpu temp and cpu power consumption.

12. godlike is powerful.


----------



## asdkj1740

1. msi has been spending lots of times and efforts to make 1-click oc for users. started from z370 msi auto tweaking becomes even smarter.
2. by setting cpu raito to 50x only and the rest remaining as auto, msi mobo would tweak the rest for you.
3. the first 8700k set to 50x and after reboot the msi auto-set vcore voltage is 1.33. the second 8700k is 1.28v. it shows how msi is fine tuning the cpu voltage for users, and it also shows the silicon lottery of the cpu in one setting.
4. not just the cpu voltage, the llc & power limit etc are already correspondingly tweaked for users but they are just shown as auto like no changes ever.
5. users should dont blame too much to the auto settings done by the bios becuase with respect to factory tuning they have to consider everything like silicon & cooling.


----------



## F-man4

Glottis said:


> Are you guys aware of this? Some motherboards power limit 9900K to 95W.


Yes. This is a true problem.
Some MB manufacturers won't tell you about this (such as ASRock Fatal1ty/Phantom Gaming-ITX/ac series or Supermicro CG-IW series) unless you discover/find out it yourself.
Even these MBs have better VRM, they should not have a high rank because the power limit makes them unable to do something what a MB with worse VRM can do.


----------



## tostitobandito

F-man4 said:


> Yes. This is a true problem.
> Some MB manufacturers won't tell you about this (such as ASRock Fatal1ty/Phantom Gaming-ITX/ac series or Supermicro CG-IW series) unless you discover/find out it yourself.
> Even these MBs have better VRM, they should not have a high rank because the power limit makes them unable to do something what a MB with worse VRM can do.



This is a non-issue since it's circumvented by BIOS settings. It's just that out of the box, some boards limit and some don't, which can be confusing. Steve from GN went to 5.3 all cores on a Maximus XI and was drawing a crapton of power, so I don't see how this is a problem with the board.


----------



## eric98k

MSI OC Workshop: Coffee Lake Refresh OC Performance Stats after testing "several hundreds" samples
https://gigglehd.com/gg/review/3700756

9900K, 8700K, 9600K average voltage vs clock









i9-9900K voltage & current (prime95)









i9-9900K power & temp (prime95)









i7-9700K voltage & current (prime95)









i7-9700K power & temp (prime95)









i5-9600K voltage & current (prime95)









i5-9600K power & temp (prime95)









i9-9900K Cinebench R15









i7-9700K Cinebench R15


----------



## Shiftstealth

Glottis said:


> Are you guys aware of this? Some motherboards power limit 9900K to 95W.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NGHiRrQ2AAo


I mean, that would be the motherboards following Intel specs. I don't see a problem with this.


----------



## eric98k

GIGABYTE Z390 Aorus Master Circuit Analysis
https://www.tweaktown.com/reviews/8...s-master-intel-motherboard-review/index3.html

VCCGT: 2x (4C10N + 4C06N)


----------



## Robbært

> msi engineer talks about
> by setting cpu raito to 50x only and the rest remaining as auto, msi mobo would tweak the rest for you.
> not just the cpu voltage, the llc & power limit etc are already correspondingly tweaked for users


tell us what you detect, $600 detector without option to tell result to owners.
same goes to asus ai overclocking
no point to hide it. it almost 2019 and in 2020 can intel make past 14nm or not there will be next something with DDR5


----------



## zGunBLADEz

Glottis said:


> Are you guys aware of this? Some motherboards power limit 9900K to 95W.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NGHiRrQ2AAo


that and he forgot about phantom throttling as well...

When you have seen a 8700k pulling over 220w+ ON A NO LIMITS overclock you know theres something fishy about temps and power usage in this reviews


----------



## vvoid

This might be buried somewhere in this epic thread, but can someone explain the Asus ROG Maximus XI boards, specifically the Hero, to me?
Is it really correct they don't have doubler chips, effectively running 2 VRM phases each in parallel? Or is there some other hidden magic within their proprietary VRM controller?
Thanks!


----------



## elmor

nyk20z3 said:


> Any word on a Z390 Asus Apex ?





Telstar said:


> No apex at this round. Gene or Extreme offer the best OC of Asus offering.





nyk20z3 said:


> Sucks I had the last 2 Apex boards and they are wicked....





AlphaC said:


> Only Maximus XI Extreme , no Apex



Good things come to those who wait


----------



## asdkj1740

elmor said:


> Good things come to those who wait


is m11a in 16phases squad?

hi elmor would you mind sharing some thoughts of why asus z390s are no longer having dobulers?


----------



## the1corrupted

F-man4 said:


> How can you put an overclockable 2080Ti (which requires 700W+ and it has already doomed several RM650xes) on a SFX-PSU build without Silverstone?
> Corsair has no 601W+ SFX PSUs.
> EVGA has no 651W+ SFX PSUs.
> FSP has no 451W+ SFX PSUs.
> ......


I'm confused.

I don't have a 2080Ti. I have a Gigabyte 1080 Mini.


----------



## tostitobandito

asdkj1740 said:


> is m11a in 16phases squad?
> 
> hi elmor would you mind sharing some thoughts of why asus z390s are no longer having dobulers?



Where are you getting this info? The Z390 Maximus Hero/Code/Formula all have 4*2 SiC634 which is an 8 phase design using doublers. This is mentioned multiple times from multiple sources earlier in this thread.


----------



## asdkj1740

tostitobandito said:


> Where are you getting this info? The Z390 Maximus Hero/Code/Formula all have 4*2 SiC634 which is an 8 phase design using doublers. This is mentioned multiple times from multiple sources earlier in this thread.


didnt follow that close, may i have the link please, thx


----------



## eric98k

tostitobandito said:


> The Z390 Maximus Hero/Code/Formula all have 4*2 SiC634 which is an 8 phase design using doublers. This is mentioned multiple times from multiple sources earlier in this thread.


Mind showing the source? Never seen any doublers for Asus Z390.


----------



## Teemu

Hi,

Can someone maybe help me to get new motherboard for 9700k?
Budget 200 to 250€ and I prefer to get wifi/bluethooth with it. 
I have thinking these boards but I can't decide which one to get:
Asus ROG STRIX Z390-F GAMING
ASRock Z390 Extreme4
Gigabyte Z390 AORUS PRO WIFI
MSI MPG Z390 GAMING PRO CARBON AC


----------



## sdch

elmor said:


> Good things come to those who wait


I've been waiting for an ITX Impact for years... ;_;


----------



## tostitobandito

I'm not gonna go dig it up, but if you search this thread you can find the info/sources. A few pages back someone posted VRM pics of their formula board as well. I'll post pics and analysis of my Hero when I have it tomorrow.


Edit: found it quickly.


https://hwtips.tistory.com/2458


Punch that into Google translate and look at the giant table of all the boards with VRM info. The Maximus non-Extreme/Gene boards are listed as 4x2 with 50A per phase.


----------



## Robbært

vvoid said:


> This might be buried somewhere in this epic thread, but can someone explain the Asus ROG Maximus XI boards, specifically the Hero, to me?
> Is it really correct they don't have doubler chips, effectively running 2 VRM phases each in parallel? Or is there some other hidden magic within their proprietary VRM controller?


if PWM controller can control 8 phases you don't need any extra doublers for 4*2 (8) phase VRM solution. their mode of operation programmed every time computer starts from BIOS or chipset.

Asus XI boards all have DrMOS, integrated MOSFET + driver.
you do need doubler to run DrMOS in "parallel" since phase driver report back current and termal data, it has to be averaged for extra phase.
PWM controller use data from phases to adjust / skip phases
you run in "parallel" only via doublers.

initially they decide to use doublers to minimize amount of control lines at boards - it's how extra chips appear at board, to reduce number of lines in usually overloaded CPU area.
there no real technical limitations to make 32 16*2 (or 64 phase 32*2) capable PWM controller.

you can read ISL6617 datasheet to learn more about doubler operation modes, current balance and current monitoring.


----------



## Stockman

*Asus Maximus Hero XI VRM temps*

Hi everyone. So much good information here. I wanted to share my experience so far with the 9700k @ 5.3Ghz so I created an account.

System-
MB: Asus Maximus Hero XI
CPU: i-7 9770k @ 5.3GHz
Ram: 2x 8GB Tridentz 3200 (B-die) F4-3200C14D-16GTZSK
SSD: Samsung Evo 960 M.2 1TB
Power: EVGA 850 G2
GPU: Zotac Amp Extreme GTX 1080ti
Cooler: EVGA CLC 280 (AIO)
Case: Thermaltake open frame. AIO radiator is set perpendicular to MB so that air flows over components. 

This is my first Asus motherboard so I have no previous experience with the brand. I let the AI Overclock do it's thing and it settled on 5.3GHz. If you understand its weaknesses, the AI Overclock feature is actually pretty cool.
Settings I've changed in BIOS:
Multi Core Enhancement: AUTO (a must)
Speedstep: disabled
C States: disabled
XMP profile: II for memory
All voltage settings have been left on AUTO

All readings from HWinfo.

Blender "Quick Benchmark"
Time to finish: 19min:20sec:12
Max Vcore: 1.376
Clock min/max: 5300Mhz
Max CPU package temp: 84C
Max VRM temp: 65C
Max CPU package watts: 207
Max wattage at AC plug: 270
Fans operating at 2200 RPM

And for fun, here are my results from Cinebench and Passmark. I didn't include VRM temp info because they're both too short to matter.

Cinebench 15
All threads: 1654
Single thread: 225

Passmark 9.0
CPU Mark: 20228
Single thread: 3213

Happy I went with the 9700k instead of 9900k. For me (100% gamer) frequency is more important than thread count. From what I've read seems like people are able to get more frequency out of the 9700k than the 9900k. Will probably use the money I saved towards a custom water loop.

Upgraded from delidded 3770k OC @ 4.8Ghz 1.4V. This thing was awesome for 6 years, but every once in a while it couldn't quite keep up with the Zotac 1080 ti @ 3440x1440, depending on the game. Obviously that is no longer an issue now (these 9th gen CPUs are overkill for games).

Happy to retest or answer any questions.
I almost went with a Gigabyte AORUS board given all their fancy marketing about the VRM. Ended up picking ASUS Maximus in the end after reading better things about its BIOS and Asus software support. I'm so tempted to buy the AORUS Master to see how my OC results with this chip would be different...


----------



## the1corrupted

Teemu said:


> Hi,
> 
> Can someone maybe help me to get new motherboard for 9700k?
> Budget 200 to 250€ and I prefer to get wifi/bluethooth with it.
> I have thinking these boards but I can't decide which one to get:
> Asus ROG STRIX Z390-F GAMING
> ASRock Z390 Extreme4
> Gigabyte Z390 AORUS PRO WIFI
> MSI MPG Z390 GAMING PRO CARBON AC


Right, so a few notes about the MSI boards (as I already did some research on them). I believe they are 4 phases either doubled or (more likely) parallel. I am awaiting validation. This is for (almost) the entire MPG lineup. See the reference table from Anandtech for the vrm structure. So the Gaming Pro Carbon AC would have a similar CPU power performance to the MPG Gaming Edge Pro AC (which can save you some money).



the1corrupted said:


> I did a lot of internet digging. The UP9521 is a 1/2/3/4 phase controller. asdkj1740 is right in that they are probably use a doubling scheme.
> 
> (Source for controller: https://www.wpgholdings.com/aitg/procurement_detail/zhtw/16441)
> 
> I could only (sort of) locate data for the low side MOSFETs. I think it's made by On Semiconductor.





Robbært said:


> uP9521P should be 6+2 at worst as there 12 FDPC5030SG and 2 more phases in asrock z390 extreme4
> 
> Anandtech's list has typo and pair for NTMFS4C024N-D (ON4C024N) is NTMFS4C029N-D (ON4C029N)
> 
> ...enhancements enable 3 % better efficiency and over 50 °C lower operating temperatures compared to previous generation DrMOS, previous generation had same Tjmax 150C
> 4C024N: Continuous Drain Current Ta = 25C 34.8A, Ta = 80°C 26.0A
> DrMOS SiC634: up to 50 A continuous current (Ta = 25C)
> I think they assume Tcase <=125C in both scenarios.
> And there 105C capacitors around.
> When chip not work at limit it will heat less.


ASRock also literally lies about what is on their board. Verify if you buy.


----------



## Penicilyn

the1corrupted said:


> Right, so a few notes about the MSI boards (as I already did some research on them). I believe they are 4 phases either doubled or (more likely) parallel. I am awaiting validation. This is for (almost) the entire MPG lineup. See the reference table from Anandtech for the vrm structure. So the Gaming Pro Carbon AC would have a similar CPU power performance to the MPG Gaming Edge Pro AC (which can save you some money).


I own the MSI MPG Z390 GAMING PRO CARBON AC. Picked it up yesterday with an 8700K that I'll exchange for the 9700K once it's available.

So far it's been a really nice board. Only one minor gripe with it so far. If you have an overclocking profile saved on the board and then update the BIOS to the new 1.1 version then the profile is no longer compatible, even if you've exported it to a USB stick. It complains that it's for a previous version.

Other than that, it's a really nice board. It easily put my 8700K to 4.7Ghz on all cores on an old Noctua and hasn't had any hickups.


----------



## AlphaC

Teemu said:


> Hi,
> 
> Can someone maybe help me to get new motherboard for 9700k?
> Budget 200 to 250€ and I prefer to get wifi/bluethooth with it.
> I have thinking these boards but I can't decide which one to get:
> Asus ROG STRIX Z390-F GAMING
> ASRock Z390 Extreme4
> Gigabyte Z390 AORUS PRO WIFI
> MSI MPG Z390 GAMING PRO CARBON AC



I'd pick between Aorus Pro WIFI for feature set (such as dual BIOS) with stronger VRM and more USB + thermal sensor headers with 2 thermistors included,* or* ASUS STRIX Z390-F for the Auto OC features , PS/2 port. Personally I feel the Aorus Pro WIFI is more well rounded feature-wise and has a cleaner aesthetic than the STRIX lineup's graffiti but that's an opinion.

Aorus Pro WIFI overview


Spoiler















Z390-F Board overview


Spoiler













 
Whatever you do don't pay for a STRIX Z390-H. It's been shown on Z370 that anything from ASUS with the same limitations as the lower end Asus boards (lack of Auto OC in this case) is using a different PWM and power design. It is quite likely you will get the same design as a TUF , but with ROG price premium for IO. 

Not recommending the Extreme4 or Pro Carbon. The Extreme4 this time around has a cheaper PWM and it doesn't have the heatpipe to dissipate more heat that the Aorus Pro Wifi has. It doesn't have any status lights for errors as far as I can tell and the power design is weaker than the ASUS or Gigabyte board.

If you're looking at bang for buck on MSI, I'd say the Edge AC (worse VRM vs ACE but same VRM as Pro Carbon with a bigger heatsink that doesn't have plastic over it). It isn't priced well but within their own lineup it is the true midrange. I'm leery of Tomahawk : it hasn't been tested in AVX as far as I can tell.


All ASUS/Gigabyte/MSI boards have ~20% price premium at the moment. You see most of boards that are normally ~$150 going for $180-200 , budget things that are normally ~$100 are selling for close to $140. 


--------------

@ Stockman , you made a good choice to buy the Hero over the STRIX boards if you have an 8 core. The Hero still has some convenience features that the Aorus boards don't have such as LN2 slow mode and such so while it isn't financially responsible to buy one if you just overclock your CPU and use it, it is plenty fine for people using it for extreme OCs.

Given the results people are having on Maximus ROG Hero and Aorus Master I would say they were definitely designed with i9-9900k in mind.


i.e. https://elchapuzasinformatico.com/2018/10/gigabyte-z390-aorus-master-review/
https://www.tweaktown.com/reviews/8...s-master-intel-motherboard-review/index7.html
https://www.guru3d.com/articles_pages/gigabyte_z390_aorus_master_review,19.html
https://www.tech-critter.com/gigabyte-z390-aorus-master-review/


-------------




TUF board layout from marketing page

https://www.asus.com/us/Motherboards/TUF-Z390-PRO-GAMING/




Spoiler















(direct link https://www.asus.com/websites/global/products/KqzNAInQ59omFm3X/img/component/component-1.jpg)


(direct link for TUF PLUS https://www.asus.com/websites/global/products/LvsIWThtKVeBL5MG/img/component/component-1.jpg)


(direct link for TUF PRO mATX https://www.asus.com/websites/global/products/ooVazr1ND7kl7Nhs/img/component/component-1.jpg)



Hero confirmation SiC 639 : http://greentechreviews.ru/2018/10/19/obzor-materinskoj-platy-asus-rog-maximus-xi-hero/


bittech used MSI Ace for Prime95 at 5GHz , no word on temperatures other than CPU temp https://bit-tech.net/reviews/tech/cpus/intel-core-i9-9900k-review-coffee-lake-refresh/7/
-------------





I doubt Asrock is using 12 phases for VCore on their boards. On the Taichi for example two phases are labeled IO and SA.


----------



## vvoid

Robbært said:


> if PWM controller can control 8 phases you don't need any extra doublers for 4*2 (8) phase VRM solution. their mode of operation programmed every time computer starts from BIOS or chipset.
> 
> Asus XI boards all have DrMOS, integrated MOSFET + driver.
> you do need doubler to run DrMOS in "parallel" since phase driver report back current and termal data, it has to be averaged for extra phase.
> PWM controller use data from phases to adjust / skip phases
> you run in "parallel" only via doublers.
> 
> initially they decide to use doublers to minimize amount of control lines at boards - it's how extra chips appear at board, to reduce number of lines in usually overloaded CPU area.
> there no real technical limitations to make 32 16*2 (or 64 phase 32*2) capable PWM controller.
> 
> you can read ISL6617 datasheet to learn more about doubler operation modes, current balance and current monitoring.


Hmm, I'm not sure I understand you correctly. So you're saying the Hero has 8 real phases for vcore + probably 2 phases for the igpu, thus a controller running in 10 phase mode. Then why is Hero always listed as 4 x 2 vcore VRM? See here https://www.hardwareluxx.de/community/f12/lga-1151-mainboard-vrm-liste-1175784.html#z370 or here https://hwtips.tistory.com/2458


----------



## vvoid

tostitobandito said:


> I'm not gonna go dig it up, but if you search this thread you can find the info/sources. A few pages back someone posted VRM pics of their formula board as well. I'll post pics and analysis of my Hero when I have it tomorrow.
> 
> Edit: found it quickly.
> 
> https://hwtips.tistory.com/2458
> 
> Punch that into Google translate and look at the giant table of all the boards with VRM info. The Maximus non-Extreme/Gene boards are listed as 4x2 with 50A per phase.


This table does not mention doublers afaict. 4x2 could mean doublers, or just 4 "virtual" phases as seen from the VRM controller, each consisting of 2 phases in parallel.
Look at the Gigabyte lineup for example. Aorus is known to have doublers, Gaming not, yet you cannot distinguish this from looking at that specific table.
EDIT: Ok, Gigabyte bad example, Gaming also has doublers. Then take MSI, you get the idea. Or it might be I'm stupid and cannot read the table correctly, but I just can't identify doublers mentioned there for any board.


----------



## GBT-MatthewH

vvoid said:


> This table does not mention doublers afaict. 4x2 could mean doublers, or just 4 "virtual" phases as seen from the VRM controller, each consisting of 2 phases in parallel.
> Look at the Gigabyte lineup for example. Aorus is known to have doublers, Gaming not, yet you cannot distinguish this from looking at that specific table.
> EDIT: Ok, Gigabyte bad example, Gaming also has doublers. Then take MSI, you get the idea. Or it might be I'm stupid and cannot read the table correctly, but I just can't identify doublers mentioned there for any board.


Actually most of the GIGABYTE models user doublers as well!

AORUS w/ doublers: Xtreme, Master, Ultra, Pro/Wifi, Elite. 
GIGABYTE w/ doublers: M Gaming (mATX), Gaming SLI, Gaming X, UD.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1l2FHTvye2cYp6D2lfUqHJLqMltR0Z2dQkqGDDz119AQ/edit?usp=sharing


----------



## Robbært

vvoid said:


> Hmm, I'm not sure I understand you correctly. So you're saying the Hero has 8 real phases for vcore + probably 2 phases for the igpu, thus a controller running in 10 phase mode. Then why is Hero always listed as 4 x 2 vcore VRM? See here https://www.hardwareluxx.de/community/f12/lga-1151-mainboard-vrm-liste-1175784.html#z370 or here https://hwtips.tistory.com/2458


What I did said is correct for ISL solution only.


> resulting average current IAVG, also goes out from the IOUT pin for current monitoring and can also be fed back to the controller’s ISEN lines for current balance


ISL6617 do Current Sensing.

Ofc they listed 4*2 because they most likely use 4phase PWM controller. Technically it 4 more efficient phases if they in parallel.
If board have doublers they can work as any, in parallel or as extra phase, making 8 phases out of 4-phase PWM controller.

It unclear how ASP1400ASP/ASP140x operates.
My first thought was "you don't run DrMOS in parallel, like you can do with MOSFET".
Now I doubt it.
And if Asus parallel SiC639 they skip THWn (Thermal warning open drain output) from every second DrMOS.
It not big deal, SiC634 not have it at all.

edit1: efficient


----------



## F-man4

tostitobandito said:


> F-man4 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes. This is a true problem.
> Some MB manufacturers won't tell you about this (such as ASRock Fatal1ty/Phantom Gaming-ITX/ac series or Supermicro CG-IW series) unless you discover/find out it yourself.
> Even these MBs have better VRM, they should not have a high rank because the power limit makes them unable to do something what a MB with worse VRM can do.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is a non-issue since it's circumvented by BIOS settings. It's just that out of the box, some boards limit and some don't, which can be confusing. Steve from GN went to 5.3 all cores on a Maximus XI and was drawing a crapton of power, so I don't see how this is a problem with the board.
Click to expand...

So what you want to say is that "Since Maximus XI Unknown Version allows Unknown CPU to be overclocked to 5.3GHz, the motherboard power limit intended to be hidden by manufacturer is not a generic problem"?
That's ridiculous.


----------



## F-man4

Shiftstealth said:


> Glottis said:
> 
> 
> 
> Are you guys aware of this? Some motherboards power limit 9900K to 95W.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NGHiRrQ2AAo
> 
> 
> 
> I mean, that would be the motherboards following Intel specs. I don't see a problem with this.
Click to expand...

It should be an issue if someone buys a motherboard for OC.
If a manufacturer hides the MB's power limitation intentionally which makes the MB unable to boost CPU up to a decent clock, then consumers with OC purpose can be deceived in this. Especially who bought a MB from "trusting the motherboard's VRM ranking place in this post" but discovered the MB's power limit after the purchase.


----------



## F-man4

elmor said:


> nyk20z3 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Any word on a Z390 Asus Apex ?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Telstar said:
> 
> 
> 
> No apex at this round. Gene or Extreme offer the best OC of Asus offering.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> nyk20z3 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sucks I had the last 2 Apex boards and they are wicked....
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> AlphaC said:
> 
> 
> 
> Only Maximus XI Extreme , no Apex
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> 
> Good things come to those who wait /forum/images/smilies/smile.gif
Click to expand...

Gene = Apex, but with a smaller form size & weaker VRM


----------



## Alias

Would the VRMs on a Z370 Maximus Hero X be fine for a 5Ghz overclock on a 9900K? 

Or would that depend on the voltage required? 
Asking since I had a pre order on the 9900K and my earlier plan was to replace the 8700K with the 9900K but it does sound like my board may not be up to the task and all this discussion about the 9900K heat is troubling also..


----------



## F-man4

the1corrupted said:


> F-man4 said:
> 
> 
> 
> How can you put an overclockable 2080Ti (which requires 700W+ and it has already doomed several RM650xes) on a SFX-PSU build without Silverstone?
> Corsair has no 601W+ SFX PSUs.
> EVGA has no 651W+ SFX PSUs.
> FSP has no 451W+ SFX PSUs.
> ......
> 
> 
> 
> I'm confused.
> 
> I don't have a 2080Ti. I have a Gigabyte 1080 Mini.
Click to expand...

Common cards except Fury X / VEGA 64 / 2080Ti-OC are fine for 600W- SFX PSUs.
But these three are huge consumers which make 650W not enough.
Before Corsair's newly announced 700W SFX PSU release, we have no choice but Silverstone to reach 700W+ on SFX form.


----------



## orion932

Hello,

so, do you guys think ROG Hero XI and Dark Rock Pro 4 is enough to do 5Ghz at decent temp, i dont plan to push more than that.

thank you


----------



## swifttwitchy

Hey dude,

Can you let me know what CPU voltage is set ? Also do stress test and let me know temps and power draw? I will have similar setup as you but with 9900k when it arrives.
I hear the auto overclock and MCE can add extra volts when not needed and thus create extra heat..


----------



## tostitobandito

F-man4 said:


> It should be an issue if someone buys a motherboard for OC.
> If a manufacturer hides the MB's power limitation intentionally which makes the MB unable to boost CPU up to a decent clock, then consumers with OC purpose can be deceived in this. Especially who bought a MB from "trusting the motherboard's VRM ranking place in this post" but discovered the MB's power limit after the purchase.





What are you even talking about? All this is is differing BIOS setting implementations. It has absolutely nothing to do with the hardware capability. In the stupid test Linus ran he set SVID behavior to "Intel failsafe" and disabled MCE, along with who knows what else (nobody has been able to fully replicate it). This along with whatever else they did appears to have either disabled turbo or lowered clocks on their 9900K, given the ridiculous temps they had under load. If you change SVID back to best case and either set voltage/clocks manually (ideally) or enable MCE, you can push more power through it than the chip can thermally handle (at least under air/water cooling).


GN also noted that unlike other MB vendors Asus seems to be following the Intel specs for power/boosting behavior. This doesn't mean they're power limited in any way, it just means that out of the box the settings will tend to default to a less aggressive mode and you have to go tell it in the BIOS or set a voltage if you want more power. What exactly is wrong with this?


----------



## Glerox

So according to hardware unboxed, the Asus Maximus XI Hero is 4 phases VRMs.






I have a custom loop with the 9900k and the XI Hero... does it mean I should send back the motherboard?
I think this video is misinformation but I don't know who to trust anymore lol.


----------



## tostitobandito

Sure, it has a 4 phase controller just like many other similar Z390 boards. It uses doublers to achieve 8+2 phases. All the high end boards with lots of phases use doublers in similar ways, including the ridiculous MSI Godlike and EVGA dark which have 8 phases doubled to 16. All of the sub-$500 Z390 boards appear to have a voltage controller for between 4 and 6 phases with doublers. The Maximus boards are in this category.


And yeah, that video is really misleading since it labels the Hero MB as inferior in some way when it really isn't. It's got one of the beefier 8+2 phase setups you'll see with 50 amp phases. Its VRM capability is similar to many other competing high end boards from other makes, and nothing unusual.


----------



## GBT-MatthewH

tostitobandito said:


> also noted that unlike other MB vendors Asus seems to be following the Intel specs for power/boosting behavior. This doesn't mean they're power limited in any way, it just means that out of the box the settings will tend to default to a less aggressive mode and you have to go tell it in the BIOS or set a voltage if you want more power. What exactly is wrong with this?


Just to be clear gigabyte has mce off by default, and we adhear to Intels turbo policy by default, which is 4.7 for all cores.


----------



## Glerox

tostitobandito said:


> Sure, it has a 4 phase controller just like many other similar Z390 boards. It uses doublers to achieve 8+2 phases. All the high end boards with lots of phases use doublers in similar ways, including the ridiculous MSI Godlike and EVGA dark which have 8 phases doubled to 16. All of the sub-$500 Z390 boards appear to have a voltage controller for between 4 and 6 phases with doublers. The Maximus boards are in this category.
> 
> 
> And yeah, that video is really misleading since it labels the Hero MB as inferior in some way when it really isn't. It's got one of the beefier 8+2 phase setups you'll see with 50 amp phases. Its VRM capability is similar to many other competing high end boards from other makes, and nothing unusual.


Thanks


----------



## SpeedyIV

tostitobandito said:


> Sure, it has a 4 phase controller just like many other similar Z390 boards. It uses doublers to achieve 8+2 phases. All the high end boards with lots of phases use doublers in similar ways, including the ridiculous MSI Godlike and EVGA dark which have 8 phases doubled to 16. All of the sub-$500 Z390 boards appear to have a voltage controller for between 4 and 6 phases with doublers. The Maximus boards are in this category.
> 
> 
> And yeah, that video is really misleading since it labels the Hero MB as inferior in some way when it really isn't. It's got one of the beefier 8+2 phase setups you'll see with 50 amp phases. Its VRM capability is similar to many other competing high end boards from other makes, and nothing unusual.


I would watch this (twice) before considering an MSI Godlike. I think Buildzoid does excellent in depth, component level analysis. It's eye opening.


----------



## The Pook

SpeedyIV said:


> I would watch this (twice) before considering an MSI Godlike. I think Buildzoid does excellent in depth, component level analysis. It's eye opening.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y4s1gQVPGlY



Big fan of Buildzoid too. Kind of shocked me when I found out how young he was, dude is a smart cookie.


----------



## DrunknFoo

OMG trying to go over this thread is so damn overwhelming!

My original plan was to get the godlike, but after the buildzoid video it appears money is better spent elsewhere...
I'm a bit impatient and the asus extreme and gene are probably boards that I won't pickup as their ETA for Canada is still TBD... *unless they just happen to be available then I'll grab one or the other....


Eyeing the XI Formula now, from what I can gather, the SIC639 is a newer IPS and its capabilities are relatively on par with all the other boards for that mobo price range and throughout the maximus line... is this a correct interpretation?

My new build can incorporate and make use of the VRM block, but was wondering if we have any indication how much heat we can expect to generate from this set of VRMS with the applied controller. It is to be piared with the 9900k....
Would like to clock the cpu in hopes of 5.2 and the 3600 bdie to about 3866-4000 with some tight timings... (HWL GTS360 + GTX360)

In other words, would this board be for me? Is the SIC639 efficient and capable?
or would i be better off going with another model?


***I'm very outdated with the new chipsets, my last OC was with a q6600 on a dfi p35 clocked @4.8 and am super excited playing with this coming cpu and chipset


----------



## lb_felipe

For a M11F + i9-9900K + bq! DBP900rev2, does this kit have everything what I need (distilled water and thermal grease aside)? https://www.ekwb.com/shop/ek-kit-rgb-360


----------



## DrunknFoo

lb_felipe said:


> For a M11F + i9-9900K + bq! DBP900rev2, does this kit have everything what I need (distilled water and thermal grease aside)? https://www.ekwb.com/shop/ek-kit-rgb-360


the list on the url tells you exactly what is included...


----------



## elmor

asdkj1740 said:


> is m11a in 16phases squad?
> 
> hi elmor would you mind sharing some thoughts of why asus z390s are no longer having dobulers?





Glerox said:


> So according to hardware unboxed, the Asus Maximus XI Hero is 4 phases VRMs.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NGHiRrQ2AAo
> 
> I have a custom loop with the 9900k and the XI Hero... does it mean I should send back the motherboard?
> I think this video is misinformation but I don't know who to trust anymore lol.


M11A will have the highest specced VRM in the Maximus line.

On M10H/C/F, there are 4x PWM signals driving 8x power stages (package with driver, high-side and low-side MOSFET). A doubler will interleave a single PWM signal into two power stages, alternatively switching between them. As long as you still have one driver per power stage, the output current capability is roughly the same in both scenarios. What you should watch out for are VRMs where a single driver is used for multiple high-side/low-side MOSFET pairs, which severely increases switching losses.

When using a doubler, much of the behavior is the same as a real 8-phase PWM solution. At any given time only a single power stage will be activated which has benefits like lower input and output ripple. That allows you to use fewer components for input/output filtering. Depending on the specific doubler used, it may still be possible to do current balancing which allows for better thermals.

The primary benefit of using double components is faster response time. When you use a doubler, the PWM signal has to go through an additional IC which slightly delays the signal. For example IR3599 has a typical propagation delay of ~10-30 ns.



sdch said:


> I've been waiting for an ITX Impact for years... ;_;


Sorry, still no Impact.


----------



## tostitobandito

SpeedyIV said:


> I would watch this (twice) before considering an MSI Godlike. I think Buildzoid does excellent in depth, component level analysis. It's eye opening.



Yeah I almost mentioned that. I definitely encourage anyone who cares enough to read this thread to watch any/all of buildzoid's videos. He does a great job breaking down the architecture on these boards and GPU's, and he also translates that into what it actually means for performance.


----------



## lb_felipe

DrunknFoo said:


> the list on the url tells you exactly what is included...


The point is I don't know whether what is included is enough or is not enough.

For example, screws, brackets to do the pump+reservoir fit, etc. I am thinking of DBP(9*(10^2)) rev(2^1) may get in trouble wraping that kit. Also, I don't know if fitings on M11F's mosfets heatsink are compatible with EK Kit's tubing etc. In other words, I am too r3traded.


----------



## DrunknFoo

lb_felipe said:


> The point is I don't know whether what is included is enough or is not enough.
> 
> For example, screws, brackets to do the pump+reservoir fit, etc. I am thinking of DBP(9*(10^2)) rev(2^1) may get in trouble wraping that kit. Also, I don't know if fitings on M11F's mosfets heatsink are compatible with EK Kit's tubing etc. In other words, I am too r3traded.


hardware is all included to fit any case that supports fan mounts upto a given rad size.... otherthan that... you'd need to purchase 2x additional compression fittings if you plan to extend the loop to the vrm block... 2 fittings per item, in and out


----------



## tostitobandito

DrunknFoo said:


> My original plan was to get the godlike, but after the buildzoid video it appears money is better spent elsewhere...
> I'm a bit impatient and the asus extreme and gene are probably boards that I won't pickup as their ETA for Canada is still TBD... *unless they just happen to be available then I'll grab one or the other....
> 
> 
> Eyeing the XI Formula now, from what I can gather, the SIC639 is a newer IPS and its capabilities are relatively on par with all the other boards for that mobo price range and throughout the maximus line... is this a correct interpretation?
> 
> My new build can incorporate and make use of the VRM block, but was wondering if we have any indication how much heat we can expect to generate from this set of VRMS with the applied controller. It is to be piared with the 9900k....
> Would like to clock the cpu in hopes of 5.2 and the 3600 bdie to about 3866-4000 with some tight timings... (HWL GTS360 + GTX360)
> 
> In other words, would this board be for me? Is the SIC639 efficient and capable?
> or would i be better off going with another model?



I don't run a custom loop myself, but in my research I've read mixed things about what water cooling the VRM's actually gets for you. Sure the VRM's will be cooler, but you're also putting more heat into your loop and possibly (depending on your config) adding that heat to your CPU/GPU. That, and most of these high end boards to a good job keeping VRM's cool with air and the heatsinks. Hell, Steve at GN always says in his streams that even in extreme OC scenarios all it takes is a fan directly on the VRM's to keep them plenty cool.

That said, if you want a high end Z390 board the first one that comes to mind is the EVGA Dark which is probably a better Godlike, but it probably won't be available until around the same time as the Asus Extreme. If you want something now, any of the Asus Hero/Code/Formula, Asrock Taichi, and Gigabyte Aorus Master all come to mind. There's info on all of them in this thread I think.

As for your question about the Asus SiC639 boards, yes all indications are that they can handle power needs to 5.3 GHz and beyond if you have a CPU that can do it. Small sample size, but it's already been proven in at least a couple instances. Including at the Intel launch event where a Hero got a 9900K to 6.8 GHz on LN2.


----------



## lb_felipe

DrunknFoo said:


> hardware is all included to fit any case that supports fan mounts upto a given rad size.... otherthan that... you'd need to purchase 2x additional compression fittings if you plan to extend the loop to the vrm block... 2 fittings per item, in and out


Thank you.

This is very tricky for a chip that possibly hits its 5GHz clock barrier.

I am now thinking of leaving the i9-9900K in total stock.

What would be the best ASUS motherboard to use air cooler (I am give up >gigabit LAN)? What air cooler do you recommend?

EDIT:

M11F's VRM blocks don't come with integrated compression fitings? Sorry if my question is stupid. If don't so, then I should buy more two EK-ACF to sum to the six on the EK kit, right?


----------



## DrunknFoo

tostitobandito said:


> As for your question about the Asus SiC639 boards, yes all indications are that they can handle power needs to 5.3 GHz and beyond if you have a CPU that can do it. Small sample size, but it's already been proven in at least a couple instances. Including at the Intel launch event where a Hero got a 9900K to 6.8 GHz on LN2.
> 
> 
> https://youtu.be/zN7VwAmp-_s


true true, cool thanks for the confirmation


----------



## nerfon

lb_felipe said:


> For a M11F + i9-9900K + bq! DBP900rev2, does this kit have everything what I need (distilled water and thermal grease aside)? https://www.ekwb.com/shop/ek-kit-rgb-360


You have all inside and some parts more than needed even grizzly hydronaut . But for every block you add need extra fitting for it.

ek kit 360 + 2080ti velocity + 2nd radiator pe360 and a lot extra 45 and 90 curves fittings https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/157107549630496768/503488604903964712/IMG_20181021_104332.jpg


----------



## ScomComputers

Hi all, please help me!
I'll see the Strix Z390F motherboard and see the SIC 639 and the NCP302045 chip, what is true?
http://home.coolpc.com.tw/fb/ASUS/Z390-I-F-GAMING/coolpc-Z390-ROG-62.jpg
https://www.overclock.net/forum/6-i...0-vrm-discussion-thread-230.html#post27665900
Because this is very important!
I want this motherboard and 9900K, the target is 5 Ghz, is it a good idea or is it a hero?
Thanks!


----------



## lb_felipe

nerfon said:


> You have all inside and some parts more than needed even grizzly hydronaut . But for every block you add need extra fitting for it.
> 
> ek kit 360 + 2080ti velocity + 2nd radiator pe360 and a lot extra 45 and 90 curves fittings https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/157107549630496768/503488604903964712/IMG_20181021_104332.jpg


Wow. Nice build. Thanks for the helping.

For now, I want to keep graphics card on air. What do you think of this setup? Is missing any part?

Why have you said that thermal compound is unecessary? Does EK kit come with some one?

Intel Core i9-9900K
ASUS ROG Maximus XI Formula
ASUS Fan Extension Card

Lian li PC-O11 WGX

EKWB EK-Velocity RGB - Full Nickel
EKWB EK-CoolStream XE 360
EKWB EK-XRES 140 Revo D5 RGB PWM
EKWB EK-DuraClear 9,5/15,9mm 3M
EKWB EK-ACF Fitting 10/16mm - Nickel (4-pack)
EKWB EK-ACF Fitting 10/16mm - Nickel (4-pack)
EKWB EK-UNI Pump Bracket (120mm FAN)
EKWB EK-CryoFuel Clear Concentrate 100 mL
Alphacool Ultra Pure Water 1000ml
Thermal Grizzly Hydronaut

Noctua NF-A12x25 PWM
Noctua NF-A12x25 PWM
Noctua NF-A12x25 PWM
Noctua NF-A12x25 PWM
Noctua NF-A12x25 PWM
Noctua NF-A12x25 PWM
Noctua NF-A12x25 PWM
Noctua NF-A12x25 PWM
Noctua NF-A12x25 PWM


----------



## nerfon

Looks good  Nm my mistake, the hydronaut was inside the 2080ti ek waterblock. If you buy it get kryonaut , it's a bit more performing.


----------



## lb_felipe

nerfon said:


> Looks good  Nm my mistake, the hydronaut was inside the 2080ti ek waterblock. If you buy it get kryonaut , it's a bit more performing.


Thank you. I would love to block the gfx card, but it'd get into too expensive in Brazil. However I aways can put the EK-Vector RTX 2080 Ti Or whatever on my custom cooling, no?

So with those parts, plus keys and tools, will I be ready to build the rig, without surprises or tricks on the compatiblity side etc? I will take your suggestion about themral paste. Thanks.

I think MXIF is the perfect motherboard for my needs since it has excelent VRM, 5 Gigabit LAN, great UEFI, looks good etc.


----------



## Stockman

Do "better" VRMs allow for the same OC frequency at lower voltages? If not, I think I'm missing the point because unless you're on LN2 you'll hit thermal limits on the new 8 core chips long before you "max out" the VRM on a decent board. If the above is true (please correct me if not) then I don't understand comparing, say, the Hero with the Extreme only in terms of VRM. (See my Hero results a couple pages back.) Thanks!


----------



## the1corrupted

Stockman said:


> Do "better" VRMs allow for the same OC frequency at lower voltages? If not, I think I'm missing the point because unless you're on LN2 you'll hit thermal limits on the new 8 core chips long before you "max out" the VRM on a decent board. If the above is true (please correct me if not) then I don't understand comparing, say, the Hero with the Extreme only in terms of VRM. (See my Hero results a couple pages back.) Thanks!


Short answer: Yes.

The more efficient a phase design, the less overall voltage needed. The more phases that are actually interleaved, the more stable the voltage delivered to the CPU that would (in theory) allow for more overclocking.

Most motherboards are sporting 4 phase controllers, so it's down to the doublers to actually double the phases. I use Buildzoid's definition of a phase.

The new chips are more power hungry than ever, so you almost need an over-engineered VRM just to run them at stock. The point of comparing two motherboards based on VRM design is because that is the core of overclocking for your chip. If the Hero is sporting the exact same VRM as the Formula, you would not see any performance difference for the CPU on either of those boards.


----------



## ScomComputers

Oh...what this.....
https://rog.asus.com/forum/showthre...Z390-XI-Hero-s-power-phasing/page2#post740134
:O


----------



## Teemu

AlphaC said:


> I'd pick between Aorus Pro WIFI for feature set (such as dual BIOS) with stronger VRM and more USB + thermal sensor headers with 2 thermistors included,* or* ASUS STRIX Z390-F for the Auto OC features , PS/2 port. Personally I feel the Aorus Pro WIFI is more well rounded feature-wise and has a cleaner aesthetic than the STRIX lineup's graffiti but that's an opinion.
> 
> Aorus Pro WIFI overview
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 226160
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Z390-F Board overview
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 226158
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Whatever you do don't pay for a STRIX Z390-H. It's been shown on Z370 that anything from ASUS with the same limitations as the lower end Asus boards (lack of Auto OC in this case) is using a different PWM and power design. It is quite likely you will get the same design as a TUF , but with ROG price premium for IO.
> 
> Not recommending the Extreme4 or Pro Carbon. The Extreme4 this time around has a cheaper PWM and it doesn't have the heatpipe to dissipate more heat that the Aorus Pro Wifi has. It doesn't have any status lights for errors as far as I can tell and the power design is weaker than the ASUS or Gigabyte board.
> 
> If you're looking at bang for buck on MSI, I'd say the Edge AC (worse VRM vs ACE but same VRM as Pro Carbon with a bigger heatsink that doesn't have plastic over it). It isn't priced well but within their own lineup it is the true midrange. I'm leery of Tomahawk : it hasn't been tested in AVX as far as I can tell.
> 
> 
> All ASUS/Gigabyte/MSI boards have ~20% price premium at the moment. You see most of boards that are normally ~$150 going for $180-200 , budget things that are normally ~$100 are selling for close to $140.
> 
> --------------





the1corrupted said:


> Right, so a few notes about the MSI boards (as I already did some research on them). I believe they are 4 phases either doubled or (more likely) parallel. I am awaiting validation. This is for (almost) the entire MPG lineup. See the reference table from Anandtech for the vrm structure. So the Gaming Pro Carbon AC would have a similar CPU power performance to the MPG Gaming Edge Pro AC (which can save you some money).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ASRock also literally lies about what is on their board. Verify if you buy.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kEjCq_bO4Uc



Thank you guys for answers. It seems like I'm picking Asus ROG STRIX Z390-F GAMING or Gigabyte Z390 AORUS PRO WIFI. I have told that gigabyte's bios sucks and asus rog strix auto oc mode is pretty good so maybe the asus might be right for me although gigabyte has better vrm and wifi features so it would be more for less money. So hard to decide 


Is that ROG SupremeFX S1220A audio any good? Gigabyte has a Realtek ALC1220-VB.


----------



## eric98k

the1corrupted said:


> Right, so a few notes about the MSI boards (as I already did some research on them). I believe they are 4 phases either doubled or (more likely) parallel. I am awaiting validation. This is for (almost) the entire MPG lineup. See the reference table from Anandtech for the vrm structure. So the Gaming Pro Carbon AC would have a similar CPU power performance to the MPG Gaming Edge Pro AC (which can save you some money).


Some specs from MSI OC Workshop:


eric98k said:


> https://gigglehd.com/gg/review/3700756
> MSI OC Workshop:
> Specs of MSI Z390 boards lineup (11):
> 
> 
> MEG Godlike & Ace
> MPG Pro Carbon (AC) & Gaming Plus
> MPG Edge AC (ATX, mATX, ITX)
> A Pro
> MAG Tomahawk & M Mortar
> 
> Power phases:
> 
> MEG Godlike: 16+0+2
> MEG Ace: 12+0+1
> MPG I Gaming Edge AC: 6+1+1
> MPG Pro Carbon (AC): 5(->10)+1+1
> MPG Edge AC: 5(->10)+1+1
> MPG M Edge AC: 4(->8)+1+1
> MPG Gaming Plus: 4(->8)+1+1
> MAG Tomahawk: 4(->8)+1+1
> MAG M Mortar: 4(->8)+1+1
> A Pro: 4(->8)+1+1


MSI MPG Pro Carbon and Edge AC both 10 in parallel for VCC. MPG Z390M and lower models 8 in parallel. MPG ITX 6. Only MEG Godlike & Ace use doublers.

Other references: hardware.info and Anandtech list.


----------



## asdkj1740

elmor said:


> M11A will have the highest specced VRM in the Maximus line.
> 
> On M10H/C/F, there are 4x PWM signals driving 8x power stages (package with driver, high-side and low-side MOSFET). A doubler will interleave a single PWM signal into two power stages, alternatively switching between them. As long as you still have one driver per driver stage, the output current capability is roughly the same in both scenarios. What you should watch out for are VRMs where a single driver is used for multiple high-side/low-side MOSFET pairs, which severely increases switching losses.
> 
> When using a doubler, much of the behavior is the same as a real 8-phase PWM solution. At any given time only a single power stage will be activated which has benefits like lower input and output ripple. That allows you to use fewer components for input/output filtering. Depending on the specific doubler used, it may still be possible to do current balancing which allows for better thermals.
> 
> The primary benefit of using double components is faster response time. When you use a doubler, the PWM signal has to go through an additional IC which slightly delays the signal. For example IR3599 has a typical propagation delay of ~10-30 ns.
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry, still no Impact.


thanks!
too many ppl freak out about parallel design. hope this clears the myth.


----------



## Veliladon

Never mind, I'm an idiot.


----------



## Stockman

the1corrupted said:


> Short answer: Yes.
> 
> The more efficient a phase design, the less overall voltage needed. The more phases that are actually interleaved, the more stable the voltage delivered to the CPU that would (in theory) allow for more overclocking.
> 
> Most motherboards are sporting 4 phase controllers, so it's down to the doublers to actually double the phases. I use Buildzoid's definition of a phase.
> 
> The new chips are more power hungry than ever, so you almost need an over-engineered VRM just to run them at stock. The point of comparing two motherboards based on VRM design is because that is the core of overclocking for your chip. If the Hero is sporting the exact same VRM as the Formula, you would not see any performance difference for the CPU on either of those boards.


Thanks for the reply. Based on your answer it seems like a better (more efficient) VRM will draw less power from the PSU for a given VCORE, but I'd think the chip would need the same voltage, all else equal. Obviously I'm not an expert, so here is my original thinking: if a specific 9900k chip needs 1.4V to run 5GHz stable then it will need that voltage regardless of the motherboard. The breakdown in my understanding is how the same chip could still run at 5Ghz at a lower voltage (say 1.35V) on a "better VRM". Could you or someone please elaborate on this?

I know I'm missing something here because my 5 year old ASRock Z77 Extreme 4 could deliver reliable 1.4V to my 3770k, so based on my understanding the VRM on that board would be able to power a 9900k (which I know is not the case at all).


----------



## Fckbutton

eric98k said:


> Some specs from MSI OC Workshop:
> 
> 
> MSI MPG Pro Carbon and Edge AC both 10 in parallel for VCC. MPG Z390M and lower models 8 in parallel. MPG ITX 6. Only MEG Godlike & Ace use doublers.
> 
> Other references: hardware.info and Anandtech list.


You think the MPG Z390M would be fine for a 9700K @ stock?


----------



## eric98k

9700k @ stock should work well on MPG Z390M and most Z390 boards.


----------



## The Pook

Is there really much difference between Z390 boards in the sub-$200 price range? 

Been looking through the thread and unless I grab a >$250 board there's not too much differences between them unless I'm missing something. More worried about VRM - but it looks like they're all at least _adequate_.


----------



## tconroy135

The Pook said:


> Is there really much difference between Z390 boards in the sub-$200 price range?
> 
> Been looking through the thread and unless I grab a >$250 board there's not too much differences between them unless I'm missing something. More worried about VRM - but it looks like they're all at least _adequate_.



If you going for low price, I would go with the Gigabyte boards, I think the entire z390 line has excellent performance.


----------



## eric98k

Optimum Tech: MSI Z390 Ace & Edge
VRM inspection: 5:00
https://youtu.be/7P2A6ADcq38?t=300

VRM thermals:


----------



## Dymblos

If you put a top 10 
Which are the z390 motherboards with better vrm?


----------



## eric98k

Dymblos said:


> If you put a top 10
> Which are the z390 motherboards with better vrm?


AlphaC's summary: https://www.overclock.net/forum/27657582-post2156.html

Top tier: EVGA Dark, MSI Godlike, GBT Aorus Extreme, Asus M11E & M11G


----------



## Robbært

The Pook said:


> Is there really much difference between Z390 boards in the sub-$200 price range?
> 
> Been looking through the thread and unless I grab a >$250 board there's not too much differences between them unless I'm missing something. More worried about VRM - but it looks like they're all at least _adequate_.


gigabyte z390 aorus elite cheapest board with drmos successfully connected via doublers.
$178 @Newegg, $190+ other places.
it should run 5GHz 9900k as entry level

what was considered good z370 asrock extreme4 cost $165 so you don't save much buying better than average z370
you want extra vrm cooler for 9900k with this

you can try $130 MSI Z370-A PRO or Gigabyte Z390 UD + $5 extra vrm cooler. it should run 8700k/9700k at stock with active cooling.



eric98k said:


> Optimum Tech: MSI Z390 Ace & Edge


msi edge 10 of








16*10 is less than 9900k ask.
why they do it to z390 (oc) board is unknown to me


----------



## AlphaC

Let me know if you think a board deserves to be in a higher/lower tier , with reviews or testing. I have a sneaking suspicion that the Tomahawk and Edge mATX board shouldn't be as high as they are.

The MSI Ace review on Guru3D had it with an i9-9900K yet only 60°C or so but there was no mention on whether the i9 was throttling due to CPU temp.

The MSI Ace review by Optimumtech didn't show the switching frequency, but I'm thinking it is 300kHz default based off prior implementations. It really doesn't bode well for it. The ASUS low-midrange offerings are using 45A Powerstages with 500kHz switching frequency in mind and they likely have better thermals due to the mosfet package (thermal resistance is stated at 12.4°C/W to the mosfet casing).

From elmor's comment it basically means that my Z370 board summary was rather spot on (I put all the 4 PWM phase mid-range stuff without doublers in one category , with the 10 Driver Taichi above that and the ROG / Gaming 7 around the Taichi level).

I try to be as accurate as possible, I labeled the Z390 image as a "likely" positioning for a reason.


Still iffy on STRIX Z390-H , found this image from https://www.asus.com/us/Motherboards/ROG-STRIX-Z390-H-GAMING/:


https://www.asus.com/websites/globa...Vg44/img/performance/power/power-design-0.jpg


The same page has "DrMos" there in the icons.





The Pook said:


> Is there really much difference between Z390 boards in the sub-$200 price range?
> 
> Been looking through the thread and unless I grab a >$250 board there's not too much differences between them unless I'm missing something. More worried about VRM - but it looks like they're all at least _adequate_.


Gigabyte Aorus Pro or ASUS Z390-E / Z390-F / Z390-A are safer bets. Asrock Taichi is ~$200 after MIR.

Cost is around $180-200.
~$180 Aorus Pro https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?item=N82E16813145098
~$200 Aorus Pro WIFI https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?item=N82E16813145091
~$190 Z390-A https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813119152
~$200 Taichi ($215 before MIR) https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813157857

No reason to buy Aorus elite when the Pro costs $1 more...


----------



## vvoid

AlphaC, may I ask you what you think about Gigabyte's Aorus ranking. I mean, why is the Master considered a higher tier VRM-wise? Ok, it has IR components, but on the other hands its IR3553 power stages are only 40A each, compared to 50A for the SIC634 on Ultra/Pro/Elite. Also, Ultra/Pro/Elite's doublers (ISL6617) seem more intelligent being able to actively power balance and not just blindly interleave phases, like the IR3599 on Master. So on paper, Ultra/Pro/Elite do look superior to Master VRM-wise, what am I missing?


----------



## eric98k

AlphaC said:


> Let me know if you think a board deserves to be in a higher/lower tier , with reviews or testing. I have a sneaking suspicion that the Tomahawk and Edge mATX board shouldn't be as high as they are.


MSI Z390I Edge: 6+1, TI 87350D. Should be higher tier?
https://www.overclock.net/forum/27679334-post2487.html
https://www.anandtech.com/show/13407/intel-z390-motherboard-overview-every-motherboard-analyzed/2


----------



## The Pook

AlphaC said:


> Gigabyte Aorus Pro or ASUS Z390-E / Z390-F / Z390-A are safer bets. Asrock Taichi is ~$200 after MIR.
> 
> Cost is around $180-200.
> ~$180 Aorus Pro https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?item=N82E16813145098
> ~$200 Aorus Pro WIFI https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?item=N82E16813145091
> ~$190 Z390-A https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813119152
> ~$200 Taichi ($215 before MIR) https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813157857
> 
> No reason to buy Aorus elite when the Pro costs $1 more...



Awesome info, thank you sir


----------



## Robbært

vvoid said:


> AlphaC, may I ask you what you think about Gigabyte's Aorus ranking. I mean, why is the Master considered a higher tier VRM-wise? Ok, it has IR components, but on the other hands its IR3553 power stages are only 40A each, compared to 50A for the SIC634 on Ultra/Pro/Elite. Also, Ultra/Pro/Elite's doublers (ISL6617) seem more intelligent being able to actively power balance and not just blindly interleave phases, like the IR3599 on Master. So on paper, Ultra/Pro/Elite do look superior to Master VRM-wise, what am I missing?


sorry, i'm not AlphaC
as it implemented in aorus z390 both IR3553 / SiC634 can deliver two or three times more current than top platform/socket processor ask.
as consumer look at board with IR3553 it fair to have more expensive parts at more expensive board.
it only this.

Asus Master xi boards seems to have better resulting termals.


----------



## AlphaC

vvoid said:


> AlphaC, may I ask you what you think about Gigabyte's Aorus ranking. I mean, why is the Master considered a higher tier VRM-wise? Ok, it has IR components, but on the other hands its IR3553 power stages are only 40A each, compared to 50A for the SIC634 on Ultra/Pro/Elite. Also, Ultra/Pro/Elite's doublers (ISL6617) seem more intelligent being able to actively power balance and not just blindly interleave phases, like the IR3599 on Master. So on paper, Ultra/Pro/Elite do look superior to Master VRM-wise, what am I missing?


I actually thought about this before the Intel i9 spec was released , it was a concern I relayed to Matt earlier in this thread (i.e. why did R&D spend double and dump money).

IMO Gigabyte's R&D department needed to reevaluate their boards' bill of materials and maybe they still do. They dumped $7 ISL Smart powerstages and 70A Cooper Bussman R15 chokes into their $200 Gaming 7 for hexcores and then manage to screw up the VRM heatsink with RGB and extremely low fin area. That was compounded by some Z370 Gaming 7 boards having poor thermal pad contact and without a BIOS switch there was no outright superiority to z370 Taichi in that aspect when you account for 138A recommended current maximum for i7 hexcores. Their Z370 midrange was basically their lowest z370 boards with more RGB / audio upgrades and an extra high side fet + drivers. With Z390 they've done a lot better with this, the VRM heatsink is well finned on the Master/Ultra despite having RGB under-lighting and the cost of the VRM is lower by nearly half on the Master board compared to Z370 G7. Gigabyte's design change has been the polar opposite of MSI's: MSI has been using close to the cheapest mosfets (~$0.25-0.30 each or around $0.50 to $0.60 per phase if doublers aren't used) for the CPU V_Core and dumping R&D money into memory optimization.

The Gigabyte z390 Aorus Master has overclocking features such as the voltage readout points , BIOS socket-able chip, power/reset/clear CMOS, and the BIOS switch (the dual BIOS on the other boards don't have the switch) compared to the Ultra. Much money they spent in R&D was dumped into the audio (ESS DAC , etc), cooling, RGB (the VRM heatsink change was a nice touch as I've stated before), and other stuff as well.

Unless you push more than 200A into the CPU (Intel spec is 193A max for octocore i9) it is probably within margin of error for the Master & Ultra with heatsinks. 

193A over 12 phases is around 16A per phase. At 16A per phase you're looking at around 1.7W per phase that needs to be dissipated per IR3553 (>92% efficiency per graph) , which is just over 20W for the VRM heatsink and thermal backplate to handle. As long as it has a 150nH inductor or more it will have this much power loss or less.

For the SiC634 that's around 1.2W per phase per Figure 10 , around 15W total for the VRM heatsink to dissipate. Somehow it's stated as ~92% efficient at ~15A (but that's with 1V output). We don't have access to a voltage scaling graph or inductor scaling. From the graph of the SiC620 performance in the VRPower pdf I would think it is within 1% efficiency difference.

 * For a competitive comparison, the ROG Hero is using 8 of those SiC639 , which would be just under 2.5W per phase in heat production. 2.5W x 8 = 20W
* Also a competitive comparison to the Taichi, 10x TI CSD87350 is around 2.6W per phase (~19A per phase) not including drivers, 2.6x10 = 26W and thermal resistance is higher at 20°C/W junction to mosfet casing


However, since the Master has a massively increased surface area and a thermal backplate the board will be likely be cooler in practice. If you look at the datasheet for the IR3553, thermal resistance into the PCB is lower than to the casing (2.5 °C/W into PCB while 23.2 °C/W to casing). At lower loads with fixed voltage the Master might have a higher peak efficiency due to the SiC634 datasheet being normalized for 1V. The factor for IR3553 is 1.05X from the 1.2V standard to ~1.3V and 1.1X at 1.4V. Power loss vs switching frequency has fairly minimal difference unless you push over 600kHz (<3% additional scaling).

1.6°C/W is the stated thermal resistance for the SiC634 to its casing. 

The price premium (as far as power design) is mainly because IR3553 costs more than SiC634. I suspect since SiC634 is not a tried and true design that R&D wanted to make sure they had a board that definitely know worked well after the Z370 / B450 midrange misgivings.

https://octopart.com/search?q=ir35201&start=0 --- price per 1000 ~ $3 each
https://octopart.com/search?q=ir3553&start=0 --- price per 1000 ~ $3 each
https://octopart.com/search?q=ir3599&start=0 --- price per 1000 ~ $0.50 each
https://octopart.com/search?q=isl69138&start=0 --- price per 1000 ~ $8.50?
https://octopart.com/search?q=sic634&start=0 --- price per 1000 ~$1.15 each
https://octopart.com/search?q=isl6617&start=0 --- price per 1000 ~ $1.80 each

I'd say the cost difference for V_Core is around $20-30 between Ultra/Pro and the Master. The Master manages to save some cost by using Onsemi 4C10N+4C06N for iGPU (doesn't matter for anyone buying $300 motherboard with i9 IMO). There's other features that cost them money as well.

VRPower ref: http://www.vishay.com/docs/76784/sic634.pdf , https://www.vishay.com/docs/76585/sic639.pdf , http://www.vishay.com/docs/76949/vrpower.pdf

IR3553 ref: https://www.infineon.com/dgdl/ir3553.pdf?fileId=5546d462533600a4015355cd94ee1767




eric98k said:


> MSI Z390I Edge: 6+1, TI 87350D. Should be higher tier?
> https://www.overclock.net/forum/27679334-post2487.html
> https://www.anandtech.com/show/13407/intel-z390-motherboard-overview-every-motherboard-analyzed/2


 Changed accordingly, though my confidence level on everything in the middle section below Z390-A is pretty low ; Z390 Edge hitting over 80°C with an i7-8700K is not boding well either since that is within 10°C of the Gigabyte non Aorus board. The lack of doublers on the Edge means that the ~30% RDS(on) advantage it has over the 4C06N solution on the Gigabyte non Aorus boards is largely negated.


Still haven't seen Z390 Phantom Gaming 6 result for example , it likely has 2 variants again.


----------



## vvoid

Robbært said:


> sorry, i'm not AlphaC
> as it implemented in aorus z390 both IR3553 / SiC634 can deliver two or three times more current than top platform/socket processor ask.
> as consumer look at board with IR3553 it fair to have more expensive parts at more expensive board.
> it only this.
> 
> Asus Master xi boards seems to have better resulting termals.


Sure, np, thanks for the answer! 
I get what you're saying, but still I'm wondering what Gigabyte's reasoning was regarding the Master. Just because IR components are more expensive doesn't mean they're better and the datasheets kind of proof that. Ok, not exactly comparable due to different voltages and switching frequencies tested in the datasheets, but my assumption would be that both perform about similar within the expected operation range of maybe 25A max per phase for a very heavy OC setting. Technically I just cannot see any advantage for the Master, yet it's positioned above the others in Gigabyte's lineup. Why does Gigabyte think Master's VRM is "better"?

You've mentioned thermals and I've seen the comparing images a few pages back. Without the heatsinks the difference wasn't much (2-3°, probably margin of error), only with the heatsinks attached the difference increased. This might be attributed to the additional fins on the Master, however we'd have to see how the thermal interface between these small fins and the main heatsinks actually is. Judging by pictures, it actually looks more cosmetic than anything functional imo. But don't misunderstand me, I'm not questioning the measurements we were shown, but more like wondering where the difference comes from. As said, according to the datasheets I wouldn't believe it's because of IR3533 vs. SiC634. If anything, I had expected it would be in favour for the SiC actually...

EDIT: Oh I see, Alpha has posted very comprehensively in the meantime. Great answer, needs some more contemplating on my part. Thanks!


----------



## GBT-MatthewH

I think you guys are extrapolating way too much based off IR not having "load balancing" in the doubler, and assumptions based off data sheets at 1V. On the master the load balancing happens in the PWM as the IR components are specifically built to work in tandem. The IR is a 'smarter' solution than drmos, which requires load balancing at the doubler. From all the testing I have expect Master to be atleast 10C lower VRM at 5 GHZ w/ 9900k. You want a huge jump? Try 20C+ lower on Xtreme 

Guys we spend months ahead of a launch testing all kinds of configurations and results. At computex last year I sat down with our R&D to discuss possible VRM solutions, costs, up and downsides to each. We decided on the IR for Xtreme/Master because they are better all around, including temps. As more CPU's trickle into the communities hands you will see this bare out, unfortunately due to the immense amount of launches (Z390, RTX, etc) we don't have the usual flood of reviews for boards we can start comparing... They will come


----------



## nyk20z3

Another Player -

https://www.gigabyte.com/Motherboard/Z390-AORUS-XTREME-rev-10#kf


----------



## Robbært

GBT-MatthewH said:


> discuss possible VRM solutions, costs, up and downsides to each.


Can 10x 4c06+4c10 supply 195A continuously, 0 LFM?
What temperature Tj(Tcase) it should be? I mean there no way it possible to keep Ta=25C near VRM area.
Replacing 10* 4c with 8 634/639 can be even profitable as there 2 coil/capacitor less.


----------



## porksmuggler

GBT-MatthewH said:


> I think you guys are extrapolating way too much based off IR not having "load balancing" in the doubler, and assumptions based off data sheets at 1V. On the master the load balancing happens in the PWM as the IR components are specifically built to work in tandem. The IR is a 'smarter' solution than drmos, which requires load balancing at the doubler. From all the testing I have expect Master to be atleast 10C lower VRM at 5 GHZ w/ 9900k. You want a huge jump? Try 20C+ lower on Xtreme
> 
> Guys we spend months ahead of a launch testing all kinds of configurations and results. At computex last year I sat down with our R&D to discuss possible VRM solutions, costs, up and downsides to each. We decided on the IR for Xtreme/Master because they are better all around, including temps. As more CPU's trickle into the communities hands you will see this bare out, unfortunately due to the immense amount of launches (Z390, RTX, etc) we don't have the usual flood of reviews for boards we can start comparing... They will come


^This. I was also wondering where the disconnect was, its 10-15 year old tech, digital VRM with load balancing happening in the PWM. There's a lot of pages here where its all discussed as new, but effectively, as far as I can tell the big change over the years are the thermal limits of the mosfets improving in newer designs, and how well doubling and load balancing can manage keeping them cool and happy without something exotic like 20 plus "real" phases.

Props to Gigabyte's IR and ISL implementations. I feel MSI really dropped the ball with meeting the increased demands of the 9000 series, and Asus may be cutting it close with the 4x2 design this go round. I'm really just considering the Asrock and Aorus lines for customers already eager to adopt Z390, though the availability of 9900Ks has given me more time to review, which is nice.


----------



## jasonwaterfalls

Does anyone know what's better VRM wise between the Gigabyte Z390 M compared to the MSI MPG Z390M Edge? I was about to pick up the MSI, but I'm feeling less confident about MSI overall this time around.


----------



## eric98k

jasonwaterfalls said:


> Does anyone know what's better VRM wise between the Gigabyte Z390 M compared to the MSI MPG Z390M Edge? I was about to pick up the MSI, but I'm feeling less confident about MSI overall this time around.


https://www.overclock.net/forum/27657582-post2156.html
M11 Gene > Gigabyte Z390 M > MSI MPG Z390M Edge


----------



## eric98k

MSI engineer Toppc Lin talks about "How Z390 mobo was blamed for the 9900K power consumption controversy"

1. Running 9900K Prime95(w/AVX) turbo boost off (3.6GHz all core): 84W (within PL1 95W), turbo boost on (default, 4.7GHz all core, vcore 1.219v): 211W

2. Mobo preset voltage level was determined by the worst quality silicon tested (~1000). 

3. MSI BIOS option "CPU Lite Load" for coarse tuning the CPU voltage levels by percentage. "Mode 11" by default for MSI Z390 boards.

4. Undervolting dramatically improves power consumption. "CPU Lite Load" lowered to "Mode 5" (tuning specific to that silicon quality), Prime95(w/AVX) power consumption (4.7GHz all core, vcore 1.123v): 153W.


----------



## Robbært

MSI MEG Z390 ACE $300 board
12* 4C024+4C029 ($0.3 for pair)
9700K @4.9GHz 96C 0LFM Linx, link
While person who made review clearly stated "ready to OC" my personal thoughts kinda different as it only 9700K, which is similar to 8700K in terms of power consumption and performance. It could be good Z370 VRM.

They had previously 115C Asus ROG STRIX Z390-E GAMING same OC, link (8* NCP302045)
Gigabyte "-gaming" boards VRM (10* 4C06+4C10 on paper it worse than 4C024) not look like made for overclocking too.


----------



## Telstar

The Pook said:


> Is there really much difference between Z390 boards in the sub-$200 price range?


The Aorus Pro is 180-190$ and has good vrm.


----------



## Danny Bui

I have a quick question, the Gene has 12 phases at the vrm section. It also uses ASP14051 (IR35201) controller which is a 8 phase controller. I was just wondering how its vrm being implemented here? I also found 2 controllers near the vrm section which are both up01320, no official data found but I found that this controller is presented as the memory controller for Asus Strix 1070. Confused!

VRM picture here:









Strix 1070 here
https://www.google.com.vn/search?rl...CbbwKHR9IBw8Q5t4CMAB6BAgGEAg&biw=1745&bih=808 

Thanks guys for all your information of this great thread, looking forward to seeing your reply.


----------



## tostitobandito

Asus seems to be doing some new/different stuff with their VRM's this gen, particularly on the MAXIMUS boards. Specifically around not using doublers and running fewer beefier phases. Performance looks to be as good as expected, and I'm looking forward to in-depth PCB analysis from buildzoid or others explaining what they're doing and why it's effective.


As for the Gene, maybe it's an 8+2+1+1 or something along those lines? Or it has doublers on the back, or they're actually running fewer phases in parallel like the Hero/Code/Formula.


----------



## AlphaC

Robbært said:


> Can 10x 4c06+4c10 supply 195A continuously, 0 LFM?
> What temperature Tj(Tcase) it should be? I mean there no way it possible to keep Ta=25C near VRM area.
> Replacing 10* 4c with 8 634/639 can be even profitable as there 2 coil/capacitor less.


It would be if you follow the Onsemi calculator and don't account for the heatsink (push pins don't have the same mounting pressure), doubler delays, suboptimal case airflow, RDS(on) scaling with temperature, or ambient temperatures in hot places. It's about 86% efficient at V_GS=4.5V including inductor/PCB Loss for 193A (~37W total loss for high+low side), would be peaking around 110-120°C with 35°C board temp I'd think due to low side having ~2.2W of losses. If it's V_GS=10V it's around 89% efficient.

asdkj1740 tested the absolute lowest *Z390 UD* and it peaked around 100°C or so at 200W on a piece of foam, which for a sub $150 board isn't that surprising. https://www.overclock.net/forum/27666926-post2319.html

Competitor comparison to a MSI board with 5 phases without doubling (i.e. Pro Carbon or Edge) would in theory result in something similar if not worse (~83% at V_GS=4.5V and ~87% at V_GS=10V). The lack of doubling largely negates the RDS(on) advantage because current per phase is halved when you have double the phases ; conduction loss is proportional to the square of current but only linear with RDS(on). Also the UP9521 PWM isn't encouraging. 

It's a similar situation with the Asrock Z370 Extreme4 implementation, where 200W is more or less at the limits of the board due to PWM implementation & heatsinking (uses ISL69138 PWM with 5x ISL6596 drivers). Z390 Extreme4 doesn't inspire confidence for this reason despite the larger VRM heatsink, since it also went with a UP9521 PWM. Additionally Asrock z370 boards have been having BIOS issues with it going to 1.5V on i9.


----

Another Z390-I STRIX confirmation (Onsemi NCP302045 powerstages) 
















----



jasonwaterfalls said:


> Does anyone know what's better VRM wise between the Gigabyte Z390 M compared to the MSI MPG Z390M Edge? I was about to pick up the MSI, but I'm feeling less confident about MSI overall this time around after the Buildzoid video.


Gigabyte has load balancing on their mATX via ISL6617. MSI is just using double the components (it's also 8x rather than 10x pairs of high+low side fets) and a UP9521 PWM with unknown specs with a larger VRM heatsink and the low side fets are slightly higher efficiency (lost largely due to lack of doubling). Per mosfet the 4C024N is about 33% less RDS(on) vs the 4c06N used on the Gigabyte. The high side fets didn't have any major difference.

Due to the tradeoffs that's a difficult thing to say. I wouldn't try to push over 180W through either of them , run an AVX offset if you do buy them. One thing the MSI does have that Gigabyte doesn't on their mATX is the ALC1220.

I'd not try to push over 40A per PWM phase on the MSI mATX whatsoever. The Gigabyte mATX implementation is a copy paste job from the ATX versions so it can likely handle around ~180W without hitting 100°C , the ATX version was hitting 100°C at around 200W.


-------




Danny Bui said:


> I have a quick question, the Gene has 12 phases at the vrm section. It also uses ASP14051 (IR35201) controller which is a 8 phase controller. I was just wondering how its vrm being implemented here? I also found 2 controllers near the vrm section which are both up01320, no official data found but I found that this controller is presented as the memory controller for Asus Strix 1070. Confused!
> 
> VRM picture here:
> _[image removed from quote due to size]_
> 
> Strix 1070 here
> https://www.google.com.vn/search?rl...CbbwKHR9IBw8Q5t4CMAB6BAgGEAg&biw=1745&bih=808
> 
> Thanks guys for all your information of this great thread, looking forward to seeing your reply.


 Elmor already stated it is 10X IR3555 for VCORE. Each powerstage has a driver so it's not as big a deal as if you run all low RDs(on) / Powerpak mosfets with no monitoring built in.



Robbært said:


> MSI MEG Z390 ACE $300 board
> 12* 4C024+4C029 ($0.3 for pair)
> 9700K @4.9GHz 96C 0LFM Linx, link
> While person who made review clearly stated "ready to OC" my personal thoughts kinda different as it only 9700K, which is similar to 8700K in terms of power consumption and performance. It could be good Z370 VRM.
> 
> They had previously 115C Asus ROG STRIX Z390-E GAMING same OC, link (8* NCP302045)
> Gigabyte "-gaming" boards VRM (10* 4C06+4C10 on paper it worse than 4C024) not look like made for overclocking too.


That's quite poor for $300 since it has a heatpipe (doesn't need airflow to distribute heat) but that's with zero airflow in LinX . If the MSI is running 300kHz switching frequency it's only about as good as a 8 powerstage / NexFET 500kHz design in terms of ripple even if the thermals end up better , rise time is roughly double and at V_GS=5V for NexFETs it's going to be a lot higher rise and RDS(on) for the MSI's parts. At V_GS=4.5V the 4c029N + 4c024n combination is ~34ns rise time , ~ 9 milliohms resistance at high side fet and ~32ns rise time plus 4 milliohms resistance for the low side fet.

4c029n and 4c024n are around $0.25 to $0.30 each.




ScomComputers said:


> AlphaC:
> The Strix Z390 F works fine with 9900K/5Ghz ?
> Or better Hero XI ?
> 
> Elmor,write me this:
> "I believe there are boards available with either SIC 639 or NCP302045 due to supply constraints. The performance difference between the two is negligible."
> 
> I'm also curious about your opinion.
> Thank you!


As long as you are not using AVX instructions 100% load I would think the Z390-F is fine. I would not run it without airflow. For the price I feel the Aorus Pro offers more though.



If the SiC639 shows up on more STRIX boards it makes the Hero look like a terrible board for the money when a $100 cheaper board has the same power layout. SiC639 should be marginally better vs NCP302045 based on graphs and the thermal resistance numbers. Spec sheet doesn't show NCP302045 thermal resistance to mosfet casing , only to PCB.


For your own judgment & verification:

https://www.vishay.com/docs/76585/sic639.pdf
http://www.onsemi.com/pub/Collateral/NCP302045-D.PDF


----------



## asdkj1740

eric98k said:


> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qaXSs_U0HhI
> 
> MSI engineer Toppc Lin talks about "How Z390 mobo was blamed for the 9900K power consumption controversy"
> 
> 1. Running 9900K Prime95(w/AVX) turbo boost off (3.6GHz all core): 84W (within PL1 95W), turbo boost on (default, 4.7GHz all core, vcore 1.219v): 211W
> 
> 2. Mobo preset voltage level was determined by the worst quality silicon tested (~1000).
> 
> 3. MSI BIOS option "CPU Lite Load" for coarse tuning the CPU voltage levels by percentage. "Mode 11" by default for MSI Z390 boards.
> 
> 4. Undervolting dramatically improves power consumption. "CPU Lite Load" lowered to "Mode 5" (tuning specific to that silicon quality), Prime95(w/AVX) power consumption (4.7GHz all core, vcore 1.123v): 153W.


this video is fcuking infomative and it clears all the controversy about the results of oc3d and linus reviews' super low temp and power consumption.
need someone to add english sub into the video.

msi seems doing very great on fine tuning by providing different modes presets, i just wonder there these settings/ presets are avaliable on its lower end mobo.


----------



## ScomComputers

AlphaC:
The Strix Z390 F works fine with 9900K/5Ghz ?
Or better Hero XI ?

Elmor,write me this:
"I believe there are boards available with either SIC 639 or NCP302045 due to supply constraints. The performance difference between the two is negligible."

I'm also curious about your opinion. 
Thank you!


----------



## Teemu

Does anyone know when we can see first reviews of z390 motherboards? I have been looking tests for Gigabyte Z390 AORUS PRO WIFI or Asus ROG STRIX Z390-F.
Is there other differences between Asus ROG STRIX Z390-F and Asus ROG STRIX Z390-E than bluethooth and wifi?


----------



## asdkj1740

@br0da

strix z390h 
pwm: asp1400 4+1 mode
vcore: (4c06+4c10)*8, in parallel.
igpu: (4c06+4c10)*2, in paralle.
vcore driver: 8* "CHN" drivers
igpu driver: 1* "CHN" drivers
therefore it is 8+2 in parallel, where each vocre phases has its own drivers, but the igpu 2 phases in parallel has one driver only.
vcore part has full doubled up components (inductor, high side mosfet, low side mosfet, driver), a complete parallel design.
the heatsink seems to be exactly the same as the heatsink on strix f.


----------



## AlphaC

asdkj1740 , nice Z390-H find. Let us know how well it does 


------

 Per Silicon Lottery, they now have Gigabyte's Aorus lineup on their QVL:


ASUS Z390 ROG Maximus XI Code
ASUS Z390 ROG Maximus XI Extreme
ASUS Z390 ROG Maximus XI Gene
ASUS Z390 ROG Maximus XI Hero
ASUS Z390 ROG Maximus XI Formula

*Gigabyte Z390 Aorus Elite*
Gigabyte Z390 Aorus Extreme
Gigabyte Z390 Aorus Master
*Gigabyte Z390 Aorus Pro*
Gigabyte Z390 Aorus Ultra


https://siliconlottery.com/pages/intel-coffee-lake-r


----------



## asdkj1740

to be fair in my opinion, the gigabyte ud costs only $130 msrp, the cheapest atx on newegg us. we then should not blame it too much of its features/funtions lagging behind. doublers, drivers, pwm controller, 1.5mm pad all of it cost gigabyte a lot that gigabyte has to cut-cost on other features to maintain its profit.

few times when i was testing the ud, the ud reached ~230w before cpu temp throttlings, i was planning to get rid of the cpu temp throttling with the same d15s dual fan setup, but the 9700k sample got token out suddenly.
and the vrm heatsink really really scuks, very dissappointed about its super low weight & thickness although given its weight the surface area is already very good. it is a waste to the 10 phases doubled up vrm.

good news is that, i ordered 9900k. i dont know whether i will sell it or use it personally.
i may use 9900k to torture my z370 ultra gaming2.0 as well as the z390 ud if i turn out decided to keep it for my own use.


an interesting question, to me, is then what feature(s) would you want to sacrifice for better vrm heatsink on gigabyte ud z390?
mine is, 12v rgb and metal pcie slot and pcb color design


----------



## Carnajo

Hello everyone, trying to pick a mobo to go with a 9700K and boy have things gotten confusing these days (or perhaps I've never gone into the detail before...). Unfortunately all this talk of phases, doublers, couplers and flux capacitors is a little over my head (though I'm keen to learn). Unfortunately my budget is around the $200 range (things get expensive in my country, so a $200 mobo costs around $300 to $400 here). So far from this thread (well, the last few pages, I haven't read all 259..) I have gathered I should avoid the ASRock Exteme 4 and the MSI Carbon. Guess my choice is between the Asus Prime z390-A, Asus Strix Z390-E/F and Aorus Pro.


So, if I understood the sentiments of this thread so far the Aorus Pro will probably be my best bet for overclocking, but Gigabyte doesn't have the greatest BIOS (is this just looks/ui/feel or is it missing actual functions/features?). Of the Asus boards I prefer the looks of the Z390-A to the Strix "Graffiti" boards and should give me the same performance as the E or F right? So the Aorus would be a little better performance wise but the Asus would have the AI Overclocking so would make it a little more beginner friendly (ironically this isn't my first time overclocking, just that it has been 10 years or so and boy is it overwhelming now. Never had AVX offsets, variable boost, variable voltage. All I did was mess with a multiplier here and base frequency there).


Any reason to get the Strix Z390 E/F vs the Z390 A and how much better would the Aorus Pro be vs the Asus boards if I'm not afraid to get my hands dirty in the BIOS?
Am I mistaken in overlooking the ASRock because I can get it for at least 20% cheaper than the Aorus Pro or Z390-A?



Honestly, just want to do this for fun and run a mild/moderate overclock. Not looking to extreme OC, will initially have an air cooler MSI FROZR L but will move to 280mm or 260mm AIO watercooling.
(EDIT: Thought I'd add that I don't need WiFi)



Thanks for any feedback!


----------



## Stockman

asdkj1740 said:


> @br0da
> 
> strix z390h
> pwm: asp1400 4+1 mode
> vcore: (4c06+4c10)*8, in parallel.
> igpu: (4c06+4c10)*2, in paralle.
> vcore driver: 8* "CHN" drivers
> igpu driver: 1* "CHN" drivers
> therefore it is 8+2 in parallel, where each vocre phases has its own drivers, but the igpu 2 phases in parallel has one driver only.
> vcore part has full doubled up components (inductor, high side mosfet, low side mosfet, driver), a complete parallel design.
> the heatsink seems to be exactly the same as the heatsink on strix f.


Thanks for this. If the STRIX is 8+2 then is it safe to assume the Hero XI is at least as good? Is the Hero VRM controversy finally over???


----------



## DarkEnigma

Knowing what we now know about the i9900k and the z370 extreme 4 VRMS what can I expect out of this combination?

I was aiming for 5.0ghz but can settle for 4.8~4.9 for the increased core count over the 8700k.


----------



## asdkj1740

Stockman said:


> Thanks for this. If the STRIX is 8+2 then is it safe to assume the Hero XI is at least as good? Is the Hero VRM controversy finally over???


there is no controversy whatsoever in this thread, some of us are already awared of the asus z390s having no doublers at all once we saw the naked pcb (with the back side too). we know/believe that the C1E/CHN chip is not a doubler. and on z170 z270 z370 x370 x470 as far as i know asus uses only ir3599 or ir3598 for doubling; asp1400 is 4+2 max; asp1405 is 8+0 max; since there is no another controller for the igpu part, and asus m11e and m11g opted asp1405 5+2 instead of asp1400, then i think asp1400 is 4+2 locked meaning it cant be interchanged for 5+1 or 3+3.


strix h is not the same as strix e and f. 
depends on which cpu you are going to use and what level of oc you are going to sustain.
for 8700k and 9700k, tuf and strix h is generally fine for 200w. 
strix f and e are better.


----------



## Kand

Stockman said:


> Thanks for this. If the STRIX is 8+2 then is it safe to assume the Hero XI is at least as good? Is the Hero VRM controversy finally over???


They have 10 physical phases but they aren't configured to act independently. If something looks like an 8+2, additional circuitry known as "doublers" are commonly used because a voltage controller ic is capable of only 8 pwm phases. 4 going to cpu, 2 to soc and 2 to ram.

So in a "10 phase design" without doublers on the cpu phases, 4 pwm signals are used for 8 physical power phases, activating 2 of them at the same time. This does not share or distribute the workload.

Doublers allow for a pwm signal to be split between two phases.

The XI hero lacks said doublers.

Don't count power phases by the visible chokes.

Z390 Hero: https://imgur.com/a/RfDLGbz


----------



## Silicon Lottery

AlphaC said:


> asdkj1740 , nice Z390-H find. Let us know how well it does
> 
> 
> ------
> 
> Per Silicon Lottery, they now have Gigabyte's Aorus lineup on their QVL:
> 
> 
> ASUS Z390 ROG Maximus XI Code
> ASUS Z390 ROG Maximus XI Extreme
> ASUS Z390 ROG Maximus XI Gene
> ASUS Z390 ROG Maximus XI Hero
> ASUS Z390 ROG Maximus XI Formula
> 
> *Gigabyte Z390 Aorus Elite*
> Gigabyte Z390 Aorus Extreme
> Gigabyte Z390 Aorus Master
> *Gigabyte Z390 Aorus Pro*
> Gigabyte Z390 Aorus Ultra
> 
> 
> https://siliconlottery.com/pages/intel-coffee-lake-r


Gigabyte did very well on their boards, I'm impressed with them besides the unintuitive BIOS.


----------



## Stockman

Kand said:


> They have 10 physical phases but they aren't configured to act independently. If something looks like an 8+2, additional circuitry known as "doublers" are commonly used because a voltage controller ic is capable of only 8 pwm phases. 4 going to cpu, 2 to soc and 2 to ram.
> 
> So in a "10 phase design" without doublers on the cpu phases, 4 pwm signals are used for 8 physical power phases, activating 2 of them at the same time. This does not share or distribute the workload.
> 
> Doublers allow for a pwm signal to be split between two phases.
> 
> The XI hero lacks said doublers.
> 
> Don't count power phases by the visible chokes.
> 
> Z390 Hero: https://imgur.com/a/RfDLGbz


Thanks. What are the drawbacks then of this design (and seemingly the cause of confusion/anger on other sites)? Based on reviews so far it seems like this board overclocks as well as others at similar price points. Is the drawback just price? (i.e. at ~$280 this board is overpriced given its VRM design)

I was able to reach 5.3GHz stable @1.385 on my 9700k using the Hero XI. What do I have to gain by returning the Hero XI and exchanging it for the Aorus Master which appears to have a superior VRM (if we ignore other feature differences)? Is it just a cooler VRM temp?


----------



## cletus-cassidy

Silicon Lottery said:


> AlphaC said:
> 
> 
> 
> asdkj1740 , nice Z390-H find. Let us know how well it does /forum/images/smilies/tongue.gif
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ------
> 
> Per Silicon Lottery, they now have Gigabyte's Aorus lineup on their QVL:
> 
> 
> ASUS Z390 ROG Maximus XI Code
> ASUS Z390 ROG Maximus XI Extreme
> ASUS Z390 ROG Maximus XI Gene
> ASUS Z390 ROG Maximus XI Hero
> ASUS Z390 ROG Maximus XI Formula
> 
> *Gigabyte Z390 Aorus Elite*
> Gigabyte Z390 Aorus Extreme
> Gigabyte Z390 Aorus Master
> *Gigabyte Z390 Aorus Pro*
> Gigabyte Z390 Aorus Ultra
> 
> 
> https://siliconlottery.com/pages/intel-coffee-lake-r
> 
> 
> 
> Gigabyte did very well on their boards, I'm impressed with them besides the unintuitive BIOS.
Click to expand...

Thanks SL. Did you see any substantial OC/performance difference between the Aorus Master vs Ultra/Pro/Elite with the “9900K?


----------



## porksmuggler

Carnajo said:


> Hello everyone, trying to pick a mobo to go with a 9700K and boy have things gotten confusing these days (or perhaps I've never gone into the detail before...). Unfortunately all this talk of phases, doublers, couplers and flux capacitors is a little over my head (though I'm keen to learn). Unfortunately my budget is around the $200 range (things get expensive in my country, so a $200 mobo costs around $300 to $400 here). So far from this thread (well, the last few pages, I haven't read all 259..) I have gathered I should avoid the ASRock Exteme 4 and the MSI Carbon. Guess my choice is between the Asus Prime z390-A, Asus Strix Z390-E/F and Aorus Pro.


At that price point, its the Aorus Pro, the Prime A and Strix boards are not competitive, the Maximus boards are inline with the Aorus, and are priced much higher, as expected for Asus. I'm not saying you need an Aorus or Maximus for the 9700K, but if you're spending $200, the Aorus Pro / Wifi are the picks.



Carnajo said:


> So, if I understood the sentiments of this thread so far the Aorus Pro will probably be my best bet for overclocking, but Gigabyte doesn't have the greatest BIOS (is this just looks/ui/feel or is it missing actual functions/features?). Of the Asus boards I prefer the looks of the Z390-A to the Strix "Graffiti" boards and should give me the same performance as the E or F right? So the Aorus would be a little better performance wise but the Asus would have the AI Overclocking so would make it a little more beginner friendly (ironically this isn't my first time overclocking, just that it has been 10 years or so and boy is it overwhelming now. Never had AVX offsets, variable boost, variable voltage. All I did was mess with a multiplier here and base frequency there).


For the Gigabyte BIOS' its the UI/UX, apparently an issue with mostly younger reviewers, as far as I can tell. Pre-UEFI, they were all about the same. When Asus "restructured" in '07-'08 a lot of the talented bios engineers went with Asrock, so Asus and Asrock have more similar and prettier UEFI bios'. The only functional knitpicking I could do with Gigabyte is the LLC settings could be more granular.

Forget the AI overclocking gimmick, you can do better with manual OC. There's an OC guide Gigabyte has put out if you need refreshers on newer settings like AVX offsets.


----------



## Kand

Stockman said:


> Thanks. What are the drawbacks then of this design (and seemingly the cause of confusion/anger on other sites)? Based on reviews so far it seems like this board overclocks as well as others at similar price points. Is the drawback just price? (i.e. at ~$280 this board is overpriced given its VRM design)
> 
> I was able to reach 5.3GHz stable @1.385 on my 9700k using the Hero XI. What do I have to gain by returning the Hero XI and exchanging it for the Aorus Master which appears to have a superior VRM (if we ignore other feature differences)? Is it just a cooler VRM temp?


Cooler VRM temps means longer component lifespan. You're on a 9700k though, perhaps you'd be safe with that. Try to measure your VRM temps sometime if you feel uncomfortable.


----------



## porksmuggler

Kand said:


> Cooler VRM temps means longer component lifespan. You're on a 9700k though, perhaps you'd be safe with that. Try to measure your VRM temps sometime if you feel uncomfortable.


Cooler VRMs are also a great indication of a better design with less ripple/fluctuation/noise/whatever term enthusiasts are using now. Also a good indicator of less loading resistance, power loss to heat through the ground and power planes and dinky heatsinks.

For a 9700K, maybe not so much an issue, for the 9900K draw at above 5 Ghz, well you already know.


----------



## AlphaC

I found a *TUF *review in which the hw monitor shows 200W but I'm skeptical since it did not list time duration or load type given we know those "8 phase" ONsemi 4C10+4C06 solutions typically don't fare well

https://www.geeknetic.es/Review/1532/Review-Placa-Base-ASUS-TUF-Z390-Pro-Gaming.html

*Z390 Formula *teardown https://www.technopat.net/2018/10/24/asus-rog-maximus-xi-formula-z390-anakart-incelemesi/

*Taichi review* https://www.mmorpg.com/hardware-reviews/asrock-z390-taichi-ultimate-motherboard-review-1000013137/page/2


> Since the only ninth gen CPU we have on hand is the Intel i9-9900K, that’s what we chose to test with. We disabled multicore enhancement and avoided the overclocking presets as these often provide unnecessarily high voltage to the CPU and generate unnecessary heat. Surprisingly, I was actually able to push my overclock slightly further than on yesterday’s ASUS board (Z390-E). Yesterday, we found ourselves locked in at a solid 5.0 GHz across all cores but experience instability when attempting to push further. The Taichi Ultimate allowed me to push to 5.1 GHz with only slightly more voltage at 1.35v. This was a pleasant surprise as previously the system would crash with even a sideways glance past 5 GHz. I’m no overclocking expert but this does lead me to wonder _why_. Could it be the additional power phases? Superior components used, perhaps?


-----


As to your idea about Z390 UD: I would cut the Z390 UD PCB size to mATX to save cost , maybe cut some RGB , drop the extra 4 pin CPU power connector. Most people using single GPU don't need ATX size.

-----


@ Carnajo :

Your MSI 120mm air cooler with would hold you back more than the board. Aorus Pro is around the same level as a Maximus XI Hero in power delivery if not better.

STRIX Z390-E/Z390-F have larger VRM heatsinks than the Z390-A.



https://www.conseil-config.com/2018/test-asus-prime-z390-a-rog-strix-z390-i-gaming/5/ said:


> Here, exception point and our Core i9 9900K easily mounts to 5 GHz, all with an applied voltage of 1.29V, and this on both motherboards! The only noticeable difference between the Z390-A Prime and the ROG Strix Z390-I Gaming is the need to use a higher level of LLC (6 vs. 7, the highest setting) on ​​the latter, which does not



No word on temps or load though they did use it in Handbrake and Cinebench.


-------




Stockman said:


> Thanks for this. If the STRIX is 8+2 then is it safe to assume the Hero XI is at least as good? Is the Hero VRM controversy finally over???


STRIX Z390-H is not the same as STRIX Z390-E or STRIX Z390-F.

The STRIX Z390-H is using the same design as a cheap TUF board but with a bigger VRM heatsink.

There was no controversy here: the Hero definitely had 8 drivers since it was using 8 powerstages. The powerstage efficiency and default switching frequency is high enough such that doubling is going to have much less impact than for a Powerpak (i.e. on a TUF , Ace, Gaming X, or a Pro Carbon). It's at least as good as the Ace if you consider that both boards are using R40 inductors (400nH) assuming the engineers properly size their inductors for current ripple. 

ASUS has pretty clearly segmented their range this time except the Z390-H: if you want good ASUS boards buy a ROG Maximus XI Hero, if you want decent then STRIX-E/F or Z390-A, if you want cheapo stuff get the TUF boards if you will only buy ASUS (foolish IMO since they don't even have the Auto AI OC feature).


edit: z390-E with ~ 190W power draw passing AIDA64
https://www.vortez.net/articles_pages/asus_rog_strix_z390_e_gaming_review,6.html


----------



## GBT-MatthewH

Just a heads up as reviews start to trickle in, specifically for VRM temps. When trying to compare boards make sure the review specifies what speed the cores are running.

Intel turbo spec (default) for all cores on the 9900k is 4.7, if the board throttles or runs below that the VRM temps will obviously be lower but so will the performance.

Heres our Z390 AORUS PRO: Running stock/default @ 4.7 all core with no active VRM cooling using Prime95 w/ AVX. - No problem










If we're going to compare hardware lets make sure it's apples to apples.


----------



## Robbært

Carnajo said:


> but Gigabyte doesn't have the greatest BIOS (is this just looks/ui/feel or is it missing actual functions/features?).


Gigabyte BIOS not had non-XMP memory OC settings. I assume they there from F6f version. link
Gigabyte BIOS have VRM PWM controller switch rate frequency settings. No other BIOS has it. link
If you still missing some features you can switch to Chinese, it doubles amount of settings.


----------



## webwilli

Asus X11A @ Asus Page:

https://www.asus.com/Motherboards/ROG-MAXIMUS-XI-APEX/overview/

Sadly no X-Shape


----------



## sdch

If only your BIOS team was as on point as your hardware and marketing teams...


----------



## asdkj1740

16phases squaddddd.
I love this in atx side.
I hate those stupid eatx with 90degrees rotated 24pin header. It's just can't fit on so many cases that is able to fit a eatx size of mobo.


----------



## xXxatrush1987

hi i have some news for the z390 aorus ultra. got it cheap for 200€/~225$.

first the good stuff, the vrm section has great thermal properties.
i7 8700k @ 5ghz 1.4V(yeah , lucky me...) prime 29.4 and the vrms get barely warm.
i first thought the vrm sensor was broken, but manual measurements came to this:

1h prime 95 small fft vrm sensor 47°C and a sensor on the back with 35°C(@19°C ambient)
with prime 26.6 it is even colder, like 38°C vrm sensor.

so great work @GigaByte, i came from a prime z370 a which just shut off because vrm overheating.

now the bad stuff,( all [email protected])

the llc is a joke versus the old asus prime a, the prime a could rock non avx load 5ghz @ 1.325V with llc level 6(so like 1.33 idle and 1.325 under load)
but the prime is a trash board so i was quite impressed.
the aorus ultra was unstable with this settings, and even 1.4V isn´t 100% stable, so i fired up hwinfo, and holy..
@1.325V with llc extreme(!) it fluctuates from 1.296-1.368V
@1.4V the range is 1.375-1.464V
i think it´s nuts, like, ***? and i am not talking about vid of cause.

i don´t know if gb has a different sensor readout setup, but for me this explains the really bad voltage scaling.

another thing: on german/english and both chinese bios languages are no settings for vrm switching frequency or duty mode(like, how much are on and are some disabled for better efficency, sometimes you want to disable such things).
i think they are important, because the asus prime a could run much better in full phase mode, like 200mhz better.

with that knowledge you cannot recommend this board to anyone, exept someone who just wants a cool board for his ultra silent watercooling setup, as the board cools itself so damn good.
but anything oc related it is just carried by it´s vrm section to a certain degree and then the bios just says: nope!

great thanks to all in this thread it is a great read, thx(or not?  ) to GBT-MatthewH and buildzoid for convincing me to buy the gb board, technically it is real top.

special thanks to alphaC, i like graphs and equations 

@GBT-MatthewH: i dont care if i take 5minutes to find something just because i am used to asus, but, i care about missing features and even more do i care about stuff not working(llc? ***?).
do you know of a fix coming anytime soon?
it would be good to put an audio driver up with an actual GUI too, i mean i have a asus xonar d2x so i´m fine, but still no quality support feeling to have to install the driver+gui from an z370board just because there is everything available.


----------



## Carnajo

porksmuggler said:


> At that price point, its the Aorus Pro, the Prime A and Strix boards are not competitive, the Maximus boards are inline with the Aorus, and are priced much higher, as expected for Asus. I'm not saying you need an Aorus or Maximus for the 9700K, but if you're spending $200, the Aorus Pro / Wifi are the picks.


Thanks random stranger whose advice I will take without questioning 
But thanks, it seems like it really is the best bang-for back at the price point after going through this. I had originally dismissed Gigabyte because of bad previous experience with a motherboard, but that was a while ago. I love the 10 USB ports, not I can have my mouse, kb and HOTAS setup plugged in, along with my PS3 Eye Cam, Oculus sensors, external drive.



porksmuggler said:


> For the Gigabyte BIOS' its the UI/UX, apparently an issue with mostly younger reviewers, as far as I can tell. Pre-UEFI, they were all about the same. When Asus "restructured" in '07-'08 a lot of the talented bios engineers went with Asrock, so Asus and Asrock have more similar and prettier UEFI bios'. The only functional knitpicking I could do with Gigabyte is the LLC settings could be more granular.
> 
> Forget the AI overclocking gimmick, you can do better with manual OC. There's an OC guide Gigabyte has put out if you need refreshers on newer settings like AVX offsets.


That's okay with me, last time I fiddled in the BIOS it was pre UEFI days anyway (well, other than assigning boot drives).


----------



## Carnajo

Sorry for second post, I couldn't get multi-quote to work (Edge browser at work)


AlphaC said:


> @ Carnajo :
> 
> Your MSI 120mm air cooler with would hold you back more than the board. Aorus Pro is around the same level as a Maximus XI Hero in power delivery if not better.
> 
> STRIX Z390-E/Z390-F have larger VRM heatsinks than the Z390-A.


Thanks. Should have been more specific, the 120mm air cooler is just a temporary stop-gap, I intend to go AIO watercooling, at least 240mm but most likely 280mm or 360mm. Case is Lian Li P-o11 Dynamic so will have top mount radiator as intake and 2 or 3 120mm at the bottom as intake, then 3 side fans as exhaust. I hope and assume that the radiator as intake will provide adeuqate cooling for the VRMs, I know technically it will be slightly warmer air having come through the radiator but I believe this is only a few degrees warmer.


----------



## eric98k

Gigabyte Z390 M Gaming
http://www.coolpc.com.tw/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=252979

Same VRM as Z390 UD & Gaming X:

8+4 pin EPS connector
PWM ISL69138 (5+2)
VCC: 4C10N+4C06N, 10 phases, doubler 5xISL6617A
VCCGT: 4C10+4C06 (smaller package), 2 phases
push pin heatsink


----------



## toncij

From what I see, ROG Maximus 370 and 390 boards don't differ much. A Formula Z370 should pretty much be as good as Formula Z390 for the 9900K overclocked. Are there any changes not visible to a skimming eye?


----------



## asdkj1740

Is there any chance on m11a the 16 phases are still in parallel design for better respond time.


----------



## ScomComputers

AlphaC:

"STRIX Z370-E / Z370-F ... Reportedly they have a 200W power limit in BIOS."
This is true?
Do you have any new information?


----------



## Dymblos

xXxatrush1987 said:


> @GBT-MatthewH: i dont care if i take 5minutes to find something just because i am used to asus, but, i care about missing features and even more do i care about stuff not working(llc? ***?).
> *do you know of a fix coming anytime soon?*
> it would be good to put an audio driver up with an actual GUI too, i mean i have a asus xonar d2x so i´m fine, but still no quality support feeling to have to install the driver+gui from an z370board just because there is everything available.


I hope they fix the problem with the LLC.. 

This problem should be also in Pro, Pro Wifi and Elite
If im correct, they use the same vrm


----------



## KedarWolf

The VRMs on my Maximus X Formula without water cooling hit about 60C with an 8700k at 5.1GHZ at 1.37v and memory at 1.45v.

If I upgrade to a 9900k will my motherboard have issues overclocking it?

Edit: @Jpmboy

For you. 

https://www.asus.com/Motherboards/ROG-MAXIMUS-XI-APEX/


----------



## GBT-MatthewH

Dymblos said:


> xXxatrush1987 said:
> 
> 
> 
> @GBT-MatthewH: i dont care if i take 5minutes to find something just because i am used to asus, but, i care about missing features and even more do i care about stuff not working(llc? ***?).
> *do you know of a fix coming anytime soon?*
> it would be good to put an audio driver up with an actual GUI too, i mean i have a asus xonar d2x so i´m fine, but still no quality support feeling to have to install the driver+gui from an z370board just because there is everything available.
> 
> 
> 
> I hope they fix the problem with the LLC..
> 
> This problem should be also in Pro, Pro Wifi and Elite
> If im correct, they use the same vrm
Click to expand...

Use llc turbo, it should be +/-. 03 of what you manually set for vcore. Extreme will go higher than what you set.

Edit: also make sure you are on f4

https://www.gigabyte.com/Motherboard/Z390-AORUS-ULTRA-rev-10#support-dl


----------



## tostitobandito

toncij said:


> From what I see, ROG Maximus 370 and 390 boards don't differ much. A Formula Z370 should pretty much be as good as Formula Z390 for the 9900K overclocked. Are there any changes not visible to a skimming eye?



VRM's are different and should be a bit better overall on the Z390 boards. Both Z370 and Z390 have 10 power stages, but Z370 uses doublers for an 8+2 phase config and Z390 uses a "wide" configuration with 4+2 phases and two power stages per core phase. The removal of the doublers should improve response time. The components in the VRM's were also uprated from Z370 to Z390. There's a bunch of discussion on this in this and other threads over the last week or so since there was some drama/confusion over the VRM config on the Z390 Maximus boards being 4 phase and not having doublers.


----------



## vvoid

xXxatrush1987 said:


> another thing: on german/english and both chinese bios languages are no settings for vrm switching frequency or duty mode(like, how much are on and are some disabled for better efficency, sometimes you want to disable such things).
> i think they are important, because the asus prime a could run much better in full phase mode, like 200mhz better.


 @GBT-MatthewH: Can you confirm Elite/Pro/Ultra not having BIOS options for changing switching freq and duty mode? Maybe it's planned to be added in a future version?

And @xXxatrush, thanks for posting your findings on the Ultra. I had actually planned to get that one, but now I'm not so sure anymore. Please check again the LLC settings with latest BIOS version. Would be a real shame if vcore fluctuates that much, this shouldn't be normal. Maybe there's a defect of some sort on your board?


----------



## Raghar

Silicon Lottery said:


> Gigabyte did very well on their boards, I'm impressed with them besides the unintuitive BIOS.


What about ASrock?


----------



## Falkentyne

vvoid said:


> @GBT-MatthewH: Can you confirm Elite/Pro/Ultra not having BIOS options for changing switching freq and duty mode? Maybe it's planned to be added in a future version?
> 
> And @xXxatrush, thanks for posting your findings on the Ultra. I had actually planned to get that one, but now I'm not so sure anymore. Please check again the LLC settings with latest BIOS version. Would be a real shame if vcore fluctuates that much, this shouldn't be normal. Maybe there's a defect of some sort on your board?


Ok 
may i please ask what is the purpose of changing vrm switching and frequency modes?
what exactly does this do to begin with?


----------



## GBT-MatthewH

GBT-MatthewH said:


> Use llc turbo, it should be +/-. 03 of what you manually set for vcore. Extreme will go higher than what you set.
> 
> Edit: also make sure you are on f4
> 
> https://www.gigabyte.com/Motherboard/Z390-AORUS-ULTRA-rev-10#support-dl


Edit #2: Quick test on my Z390 Master w/ 9900K @ 5Ghz.
LLC: Turbo
Multi: 50x
Vcore: 1.35


----------



## Raghar

GBT-MatthewH said:


> Just a heads up as reviews start to trickle in, specifically for VRM temps. When trying to compare boards make sure the review specifies what speed the cores are running.
> 
> Intel turbo spec (default) for all cores on the 9900k is 4.7, if the board throttles or runs below that the VRM temps will obviously be lower but so will the performance.
> 
> Heres our Z390 AORUS PRO: Running stock/default @ 4.7 all core with no active VRM cooling using Prime95 w/ AVX. - No problem
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If we're going to compare hardware lets make sure it's apples to apples.


Is this open air, or in case?
And what's that CPU min temperature? It's bit too low resolution to read it. (BTW Was the test done at room temperature on in assembly hall?) Also how long that Prime test ran before snapshot?


----------



## AlphaC

xXxatrush1987 said:


> hi i have some news for the z390 aorus ultra. got it cheap for 200€/~225$.
> 
> first the good stuff, the vrm section has great thermal properties.
> i7 8700k @ 5ghz 1.4V(yeah , lucky me...) prime 29.4 and the vrms get barely warm.
> i first thought the vrm sensor was broken, but manual measurements came to this:
> 
> 1h prime 95 small fft vrm sensor 47°C and a sensor on the back with 35°C(@19°C ambient)
> with prime 26.6 it is even colder, like 38°C vrm sensor.
> 
> so great work @*GigaByte* , i came from a prime z370 a which just shut off because vrm overheating.
> 
> now the bad stuff,( all [email protected])
> 
> the llc is a joke versus the old asus prime a, the prime a could rock non avx load 5ghz @ 1.325V with llc level 6(so like 1.33 idle and 1.325 under load)
> but the prime is a trash board so i was quite impressed.
> the aorus ultra was unstable with this settings, and even 1.4V isn´t 100% stable, so i fired up hwinfo, and holy..
> @1.325V with llc extreme(!) it fluctuates from 1.296-1.368V
> @1.4V the range is 1.375-1.464V
> i think it´s nuts, like, ***? and i am not talking about vid of cause.
> 
> i don´t know if gb has a different sensor readout setup, but for me this explains the really bad voltage scaling.
> 
> another thing: on german/english and both chinese bios languages are no settings for vrm switching frequency or duty mode(like, how much are on and are some disabled for better efficency, sometimes you want to disable such things).
> i think they are important, because the asus prime a could run much better in full phase mode, like 200mhz better.
> 
> with that knowledge you cannot recommend this board to anyone, exept someone who just wants a cool board for his ultra silent watercooling setup, as the board cools itself so damn good.
> but anything oc related it is just carried by it´s vrm section to a certain degree and then the bios just says: nope!
> 
> great thanks to all in this thread it is a great read, thx(or not?  ) to GBT-MatthewH and buildzoid for convincing me to buy the gb board, technically it is real top.
> 
> special thanks to alphaC, i like graphs and equations


Is it on adaptive voltage or fixed? People have better luck with Turbo LLC by the way.




Falkentyne said:


> Ok
> may i please ask what is the purpose of changing vrm switching and frequency modes?
> what exactly does this do to begin with?


Default should be 400kHz on the Master using IR3553 and 500kHz on the other Aorus boards using Vishay parts.

I wouldn't touch it unless you plan on spending time fine-tuning things and have equipment to properly test what you changed. Switching frequency accounts for ripple as well as affects the output capacitor, deadtime, driver and mosfet switching loss (faster switching frequency is generally more loss). The board is probably tuned for the default switching frequency (in terms of inductor/capacitors). You may introduce unintended inductor ringing and other such effects.


Duty cycle is dependent on the ratio of input to output voltage , it's how often something is active. You're stepping down 12V input into anywhere from 1V to 1.52V. So 1.35V/12 = 0.1125 duty cycle (i.e. 11.25%). The duty cycle directly affects the high side fet performance , the more voltage you need the more your high side fet needs to switch on to let voltage pass from +12V rather than the low side fet. This is the main reason for the superiority of a powerblock (low+high side copackaged) or a powerstage (includes driver).



--------------------------------------------


More independent testing



*Prime95 with AIO , 5GHz 1.35V:*

Godlike : http://playwares.com/pcreview/56974481#






<--- 5 GHz MCE













(LLC levels) 



Spoiler
















Aorus Master : http://playwares.com/pcreview/56978764#






<--- 5GHz MCE














(LLC levels)


Spoiler


----------



## voidcrus

Thank you to all regular posters for providing a lot of useful info about boards and VRM.

What is the latest version of Z390 tier list? Old link seems to be broken.


----------



## GBT-MatthewH

Raghar said:


> Is this open air, or in case?
> And what's that CPU min temperature? It's bit too low resolution to read it. (BTW Was the test done at room temperature on in assembly hall?) Also how long that Prime test ran before snapshot?


CPU Min was 26C, max 77C. 

Open air test bench @ room temperature, don't know the exact ambient but it was done in an office in taiwan so not chilly by any means. SS shows 15 minutes, Prime95 29.4b8, Small FFT.

I attached a bigger/clearer shot.


----------



## xXxatrush1987

GBT-MatthewH said:


> Use llc turbo, it should be +/-. 03 of what you manually set for vcore. Extreme will go higher than what you set.
> 
> Edit: also make sure you are on f4
> 
> https://www.gigabyte.com/Motherboard/Z390-AORUS-ULTRA-rev-10#support-dl


thx for teh reply^^

testet again on turbo, was on f4 already.

1.4V 4,9ghz now because it wouldn´t be stable otherwise, 1.380V-1.416V, which is ~in your mentioned 0.03 range give or take.
i don´t care about the overshot, no problem with that, im just used to a tighter spread and no drop below bios setting(~0.01 spread on the asus prime z370 a on llc lvl 6).

i think the oc stability would greatly improve if the llc settings this high(turbo/extreme) would at least not go so far under the set voltage, so that i don´t have to "buy" me oc stability with that huge overshot on extreme. can´t be that a puny z370 130€ board just gets the whole voltage stuff better, even though it does a private vrm bbc while doing so.

strongly IME, might be bs:
and thats where the vrm switching and duty control would help, i guess, because in "full phase mode" the asus´s voltage was rock solid.
for the ones asking: higher vrm frequency cost quite some efficiency but can stabilize overclocks at changing load states(benchmarking or processing images), but can be unstable under long term load(like rendering for a long time).
vrm duty control can help with that too, but even on long term load scenarios, you pay with efficiency again, as 50A phases in full phase mode on an idling desktop would use more energy(heat) switching on and off than providing stupidly low Ampere to the cpu

both together can lower the needed voltage on a cpu quite a bit, so like super simplyfied(so much it hurts) yes the vrm on the ultra would get 15° hotter, but would give me a 10° cooler 8700k with stable 5ghz.
@GBT-MatthewH
so no vrm settings(frequency/duty) are not in the bios(f4).
0.03V is quite a bit i guess? but if it`s spec on turbo i have swallow the pill i guess? lucky me again?
i hope a later bios, or statement that certain things are not or are intended(vrm stuff+onboard audio gui missing)will follow. would like a headsup on that.
would like to recommend the new gigabyte lineup to my small community, but now i just struggle with writing a review .


----------



## Cyph3r

xXxatrush1987 said:


> onboard audio gui missing


Download the Realtek Audio Console from the MS app store. Realtek has dropped the old included GUI.


----------



## GBT-MatthewH

xXxatrush1987 said:


> thx for teh reply^^
> 
> testet again on turbo, was on f4 already.
> 
> 1.4V 4,9ghz now because it wouldn´t be stable otherwise, 1.380V-1.416V, which is ~in your mentioned 0.03 range give or take.
> i don´t care about the overshot, no problem with that, im just used to a tighter spread and no drop below bios setting(~0.01 spread on the asus prime z370 a on llc lvl 6).
> 
> i think the oc stability would greatly improve if the llc settings this high(turbo/extreme) would at least not go so far under the set voltage, so that i don´t have to "buy" me oc stability with that huge overshot on extreme. can´t be that a puny z370 130€ board just gets the whole voltage stuff better, even though it does a private vrm bbc while doing so.
> 
> strongly IME, might be bs:
> and thats where the vrm switching and duty control would help, i guess, because in "full phase mode" the asus´s voltage was rock solid.
> for the ones asking: higher vrm frequency cost quite some efficiency but can stabilize overclocks at changing load states(benchmarking or processing images), but can be unstable under long term load(like rendering for a long time).
> vrm duty control can help with that too, but even on long term load scenarios, you pay with efficiency again, as 50A phases in full phase mode on an idling desktop would use more energy(heat) switching on and off than providing stupidly low Ampere to the cpu
> 
> both together can lower the needed voltage on a cpu quite a bit, so like super simplyfied(so much it hurts) yes the vrm on the ultra would get 15° hotter, but would give me a 10° cooler 8700k with stable 5ghz.
> 
> @GBT-MatthewH
> so no vrm settings(frequency/duty) are not in the bios(f4).
> 0.03V is quite a bit i guess? but if it`s spec on turbo i have swallow the pill i guess? lucky me again?
> i hope a later bios, or statement that certain things are not or are intended(vrm stuff+onboard audio gui missing)will follow. would like a headsup on that.
> would like to recommend the new gigabyte lineup to my small community, but now i just struggle with writing a review .


Are you talking about these? I can ask about Ultra (since I don't have one on my test bench).


----------



## xXxatrush1987

GBT-MatthewH said:


> Are you talking about these? I can ask about Ultra (since I don't have one on my test bench).


yes, these.

been used to them for years and even the old asus has them.

little update, thought i give turbo a shot at 1.325V:
1.296-1368

llc turbo, f4 bios


----------



## GBT-MatthewH

xXxatrush1987 said:


> yes, these.
> 
> been used to them for years and even the old asus has them.
> 
> little update, thought i give turbo a shot at 1.325V:
> 1.296-1368
> 
> llc turbo, f4 bios


Just double checking you set "CPU Vcore" LLC... Some early testers had issues because they kinda glanced over and set the "CPU Internal AC/DC" LLC by mistake.


----------



## xXxatrush1987

GBT-MatthewH said:


> Just double checking you set "CPU Vcore" LLC... Some early testers had issues because they kinda glanced over and set the "CPU Internal AC/DC" LLC by mistake.


yes i know this fauxpax^^, but no ist the second option with the same wording as your screenshot, the whole system is in english so no missunderstanding there either. as i find the english terminology in pc tech terms more precise.

so yes vcore llc on turbo, with this diminishing returns
@Cyph3r

thx, works, the asus board installed the app automaticly with the driver, i´m getting old -.-...


----------



## Robostyle

Hello everyone - as I see there's been tons of posts written over 9 series launch. 
Sorry for my laziness to read it all over, but could someone tell - any massive changes made between X and XI maximuses? 

And BTW, I've saw two revisions of Maximus X Hero wifi on luxx.de - dunno which is better/worse, and how to define which revision do I have?


----------



## Falkentyne

GBT-MatthewH said:


> Edit #2: Quick test on my Z390 Master w/ 9900K @ 5Ghz.
> LLC: Turbo
> Multi: 50x
> Vcore: 1.35


 @GBT-MatthewH
Thank you for your post.

Why are there two different vcore sensors, with different volt values?
is one "VID" and one "Vcore"?


----------



## GBT-MatthewH

Falkentyne said:


> @GBT-MatthewH
> Thank you for your post.
> 
> Why are there two different vcore sensors, with different volt values?
> is one "VID" and one "Vcore"?


VID is voltage the CPU requests and coded into the CPU itself. VCore is actual voltage delivered to the CPU by the motherboard.


----------



## SpeedyIV

GBT-MatthewH said:


> VID is voltage the CPU requests and coded into the CPU itself. VCore is actual voltage delivered to the CPU by the motherboard.


Yes that is true, but I think the question is why is HWINFO showing 2 items both called "Vcore" not VID. Top one is 1.368VDC and second one down is 1.342VDC - 2 different values, same name - "Vcore". So is one of these actually VID? HWINFO lists a VID for each core of my 8700K but only 1 Vcore. I have never seen HWINFO lists 2 Vcore values.


----------



## porksmuggler

Robostyle said:


> Hello everyone - as I see there's been tons of posts written over 9 series launch.
> Sorry for my laziness to read it all over, but could someone tell - any massive changes made between X and XI maximuses?
> 
> And BTW, I've saw two revisions of Maximus X Hero wifi on luxx.de - dunno which is better/worse, and how to define which revision do I have?


I'll probably stir up trouble saying this, but I'd say the revision 1,01 X Hero is the better VRM implementation, obviously over the revision 1,00 X Hero, but also the XI Hero. The PWM, doublers, and mosfet arrangement seems better to me than the older style parallel, non-doubler arrangement on the XI Hero, regardless of the SiC639s.


----------



## Falkentyne

GBT-MatthewH said:


> VID is voltage the CPU requests and coded into the CPU itself. VCore is actual voltage delivered to the CPU by the motherboard.


Hi Matthew.
Yes I know this and I also know that "VID" can be manipulated by changing "IA AC DC Loadline".
But in your screenshot, you have two VCORE readouts showing two different values.

Not vid but VCORE and they are two different values.
so I am asking if this is perhaps a "Bios bug" and if one of those "Vcore" readouts was actually supposed to be "VID".

This is a legitimate and genuine question and a possible bug.
@GBT-MatthewH

Please investigate that.


----------



## Robbært

Falkentyne said:


> Not vid but VCORE and they are two different values.
> Please investigate that.


there two vrm heatsinks and other (cooler one) has phases for internal gpu


----------



## GBT-MatthewH

Falkentyne said:


> Hi Matthew.
> Yes I know this and I also know that "VID" can be manipulated by changing "IA AC DC Loadline".
> But in your screenshot, you have two VCORE readouts showing two different values.
> 
> Not vid but VCORE and they are two different values.
> so I am asking if this is perhaps a "Bios bug" and if one of those "Vcore" readouts was actually supposed to be "VID".
> 
> This is a legitimate and genuine question and a possible bug.
> 
> @GBT-MatthewH
> 
> Please investigate that.


Its 2 different chips - ITE8688 and ITE8792... Not a bug lol. This is not new either... Anyways use the 8688 Vcore readings.


----------



## Falkentyne

Robbært said:


> there two vrm heatsinks and other (cooler one) has phases for internal gpu


That is absolutely not the iGPU voltage though.
iGPU doesn't use the CPU vcore voltage.


----------



## Falkentyne

GBT-MatthewH said:


> Its 2 different chips - ITE8688 and ITE8792... Not a bug lol. This is not new either... Anyways use the 8688 Vcore readings.


Thank you for clearing that up <3
I'll be buying this motherboard as soon as it goes up on Amazon
Thank you @GBT-MatthewH


----------



## Robostyle

porksmuggler said:


> I'll probably stir up trouble saying this, but I'd say the revision 1,01 X Hero is the better VRM implementation, obviously over the revision 1,00 X Hero, but also the XI Hero. The PWM, doublers, and mosfet arrangement seems better to me than the older style parallel, non-doubler arrangement on the XI Hero, regardless of the SiC639s.


Anyhow you can define which one is on ur hands, without vrm heatsink dissasembly?


----------



## AlphaC

porksmuggler said:


> I'll probably stir up trouble saying this, but I'd say the revision 1,01 X Hero is the better VRM implementation, obviously over the revision 1,00 X Hero, but also the XI Hero. The PWM, doublers, and mosfet arrangement seems better to me than the older style parallel, non-doubler arrangement on the XI Hero, regardless of the SiC639s.


Well this isn't youtube so no pitchforks.



Rev 1.01 Hero X is probably going to run a bit hotter vs the Z390, due to switching times (Channel 1= 35ns typical at V_Gen =10V and 80ns at V_Gen=4.5V) and the thermal resistance (~3°C/W) . It's a 60A powerblock though. If you use the typical values for V_GS=10V it is around 89% efficient for 138A to 190A and power dissipation is quoted at 2.5W max for Channel 1 / Channel 2 so it should be able to work if the heatsink functions. The issue is the Z370 ROG Maximus X Hero heatsink is a decoration without a heatpipe or much surface area.



The ZF906 is mainly advantageous vs Powerpaks / Low RDS(on) mosfets by the low on state resistance (0.9 to 1.2 milliohms for the low side fet depending on V_GS=10V or V_GS=4.5V; 3 to 4 milliohms for high side). 



See https://www.vishay.com/docs/67547/sizf906dt.pdf


They're about $0.75 each https://octopart.com/sizf906dt-t1-ge3-vishay-76953641


The 50A Infineon Optimos powerblock on the old Hero 1.0 had a lower power rating but switching times for the parts in the family were quite low (below 10ns). 

https://www.infineon.com/cms/en/pro...n-channel-power-mosfet/bsg0810ndi/#!documents
https://www.infineon.com/cms/en/pro...n-channel-power-mosfet/bsg0813ndi/#!documents


SiC639 now used on the new z390 ROG Hero runs around $1.15 and is a powerstage.




------


hicookie looks like having fun with Aorus Xtreme:







> I like to share you what CPU power can deliver on a Z390 motherboard with i9-9900K, ambient 25c, a open loop bitspower water system cooled a 5.2GHz 9900K, the video is showing, a sFFT (default)prime95 stressing 3hrs with avx2 on a 9900K, meanwhile the CPU is drawing around 350watts, the aorus extreme mosfets without heatshink are just below 90c, would this is the most power-house deisgn mb of Z390?


----------



## GBT-MatthewH

AlphaC said:


> hicookie looks like having fun with Aorus Xtreme:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gxNXU1JPgNg


WOW Cookie ran 5.2 with no heatsink and still didn't hit 90C... Not bad? :-0

(For those who don't know HiCookie is GIGABYTE's in-house XOC'er and part of the R&D team that is responsible for all our VRM design.)


----------



## Robostyle

AlphaC said:


> porksmuggler said:
> 
> 
> 
> I'll probably stir up trouble saying this, but I'd say the revision 1,01 X Hero is the better VRM implementation, obviously over the revision 1,00 X Hero, but also the XI Hero. The PWM, doublers, and mosfet arrangement seems better to me than the older style parallel, non-doubler arrangement on the XI Hero, regardless of the SiC639s.
> 
> 
> 
> Well this isn't youtube so no pitchforks.
> 
> 
> 
> Rev 1.01 Hero X is probably going to run a bit hotter vs the Z390, due to switching times (Channel 1= 35ns typical at V_Gen =10V and 80ns at V_Gen=4.5V) and the thermal resistance (~3°C/W) . It's a 60A powerblock though. If you use the typical values for V_GS=10V it is around 89% efficient for 138A to 190A and power dissipation is quoted at 2.5W max for Channel 1 / Channel 2 so it should be able to work if the heatsink functions. The issue is the Z370 ROG Maximus X Hero heatsink is a decoration without a heatpipe or much surface area.
> 
> 
> 
> The ZF906 is mainly advantageous vs Powerpaks / Low RDS(on) mosfets by the low on state resistance (0.9 to 1.2 milliohms for the low side fet depending on V_GS=10V or V_GS=4.5V; 3 to 4 milliohms for high side).
> 
> 
> 
> See https://www.vishay.com/docs/67547/sizf906dt.pdf
> 
> 
> They're about $0.75 each https://octopart.com/sizf906dt-t1-ge3-vishay-76953641
> 
> 
> The 50A Infineon Optimos powerblock on the old Hero 1.0 had a lower power rating but switching times for the parts in the family were quite low (below 10ns).
> 
> https://www.infineon.com/cms/en/pro...n-channel-power-mosfet/bsg0810ndi/#!documents
> https://www.infineon.com/cms/en/pro...n-channel-power-mosfet/bsg0813ndi/#!documents
> 
> 
> SiC639 now used on the new z390 ROG Hero runs around $1.15 and is a powerstage.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ------
> 
> 
> hicookie looks like having fun with Aorus Xtreme:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I like to share you what CPU power can deliver on a Z390 motherboard with i9-9900K, ambient 25c, a open loop bitspower water system cooled a 5.2GHz 9900K, the video is showing, a sFFT (default)prime95 stressing 3hrs with avx2 on a 9900K, meanwhile the CPU is drawing around 350watts, the aorus extreme mosfets without heatshink are just below 90c, would this is the most power-house deisgn mb of Z390?
> 
> Click to expand...
Click to expand...

And now please, for the folks who doesn’t dig the thing? 😄


----------



## F120

@GBT-MatthewH Can you help check this for the Z370 Gaming 7 board as well?

It has two ITE chips as well, IT8686E and IT8792E. 8686 tends to give stranger readings, while 8792 is more stable.
My own readings show 1.38V max on 8686 and 1.353V on 8792, and it should be around 1.35V.

From your picture, it looks like the second sensor is more accurate? Just want to confirm.

Also, the 8686 tends to bug out when HWinfo is open. Do you know if this is a problem on the HWinfo side?


----------



## porksmuggler

Robostyle said:


> Anyhow you can define which one is on ur hands, without vrm heatsink dissasembly?


I'm assuming, but you should be able to see the PWM controller at least, Asus calls it an "EPU", and its the ASP1405I on the X Hero 1,01. It's the ASP1400BT on the first revision.

I stand by my statement before also, there's more to the thermals than the switching time, and the bulk of the heat dissipation is into the board, power and ground planes, not the dinky heatsinks. The XI Hero uses an inferior ASP1400CTB controller, I believe the same as Asus used on the H370 line. At least on paper the newer revision 1,01 X Hero IR3599 / ZF906 arrangement should be better in regards to ripple/fluctuation/noise than the XI Hero 4x2 setup.


----------



## tostitobandito

porksmuggler said:


> I'm assuming, but you should be able to see the PWM controller at least, Asus calls it an "EPU", and its the ASP1405I on the X Hero 1,01. It's the ASP1400BT on the first revision.
> 
> I stand by my statement before also, there's more to the thermals than the switching time, and the bulk of the heat dissipation is into the board, power and ground planes, not the dinky heatsinks. The XI Hero uses an inferior ASP1400CTB controller, I believe the same as Asus used on the H370 line. At least on paper the newer revision 1,01 X Hero IR3599 / ZF906 arrangement should be better in regards to ripple/fluctuation/noise than the XI Hero 4x2 setup.



And yet Silicon Lottery is seeing much better 9900K OC results on the XI compared to the X. Enough so they don't really recommend any Z370 boards for it, and the Maximus XI is on their QVL list.


https://www.overclock.net/forum/180...ffee-lake-refresh-binning-6.html#post27682624


----------



## porksmuggler

tostitobandito said:


> And yet Silicon Lottery is seeing much better 9900K OC results on the XI compared to the X. Enough so they don't really recommend any Z370 boards for it, and the Maximus XI is on their QVL list.
> 
> 
> https://www.overclock.net/forum/180...ffee-lake-refresh-binning-6.html#post27682624


Whoa there fella, you'd need to compare the X Code / Formula to the XI Hero, since those boards are what they upgraded the X Hero revision 1,01 VRM. I haven't seen any indication SL has tested the X Hero 1,01. Unless you're trying to say the X Code / Formula are inferior to the XI Hero for 9900K OC, might want to get an opinion from Asus on that.

I know you think the SiC639 are "beefier" from your previous posts, but there's a bit more to it than that, no offense.


----------



## tostitobandito

porksmuggler said:


> Whoa there fella, you'd need to compare the X Code / Formula to the XI Hero, since those boards are what they upgraded the X Hero revision 1,01 VRM. I haven't seen any indication SL has tested the X Hero 1,01. Unless you're trying to say the X Code / Formula are inferior to the XI Hero for 9900K OC, might want to get an opinion from Asus on that.
> 
> I know you think the SiC639 are "beefier" from your previous posts, but there's a bit more to it than that, no offense.



SL stated in that thread that they've been using rev1.01 X Hero/Code boards in their tests.

https://www.overclock.net/forum/180...ffee-lake-refresh-binning-7.html#post27684992
https://www.overclock.net/forum/180...ffee-lake-refresh-binning-7.html#post27685378

I think the Maximus X Formula had different/better VRM so it may perform differently, and SL hasn't explicitly stated that they've tested it (though they seem to be testing all major Z370 boards). The Hero and Code should be the same though, as far as I know.


----------



## Robostyle

porksmuggler said:


> Robostyle said:
> 
> 
> 
> Anyhow you can define which one is on ur hands, without vrm heatsink dissasembly?
> 
> 
> 
> I'm assuming, but you should be able to see the PWM controller at least, Asus calls it an "EPU", and its the ASP1405I on the X Hero 1,01. It's the ASP1400BT on the first revision.
> 
> 
> 
> I stand by my statement before also, there's more to the thermals than the switching time, and the bulk of the heat dissipation is into the board, power and ground planes, not the dinky heatsinks. The XI Hero uses an inferior ASP1400CTB controller, I believe the same as Asus used on the H370 line. At least on paper the newer revision 1,01 X Hero IR3599 / ZF906 arrangement should be better in regards to ripple/fluctuation/noise than the XI Hero 4x2 setup.
Click to expand...

Well I’ll be damned but Ive got hero with 1405I. And this one is already a year old! Ive bought it december 2017!

I can see ZF906 mosfets on high side aswell.

But I’m not really sure what does mean “dopler” in luxx’s table - does it mean my MB is 8phase design? Or its still 4?


----------



## GBT-MatthewH

F120 said:


> @GBT-MatthewH Can you help check this for the Z370 Gaming 7 board as well?
> 
> It has two ITE chips as well, IT8686E and IT8792E. 8686 tends to give stranger readings, while 8792 is more stable.
> My own readings show 1.38V max on 8686 and 1.353V on 8792, and it should be around 1.35V.
> 
> From your picture, it looks like the second sensor is more accurate? Just want to confirm.
> 
> Also, the 8686 tends to bug out when HWinfo is open. Do you know if this is a problem on the HWinfo side?


Here's what I found: Z390 Master, 9900k, LLC Turbo, Vcore 1.35 (Edit: at 5 GHz)

Voltage readout points via multimeter: 1.348
ITE8688: 1.368
ITE8792: 1.342

So looks like on Z390 ITE8792 is closer to the real voltage. YMMV.


----------



## porksmuggler

tostitobandito said:


> SL stated in that thread that they've been using rev1.01 X Hero/Code boards in their tests.
> 
> https://www.overclock.net/forum/180...ffee-lake-refresh-binning-7.html#post27684992
> https://www.overclock.net/forum/180...ffee-lake-refresh-binning-7.html#post27685378
> 
> I think the Maximus X Formula had different/better VRM so it may perform differently, and SL hasn't explicitly stated that they've tested it (though they seem to be testing all major Z370 boards). The Hero and Code should be the same though, as far as I know.


That they did, I stand corrected, but I still stand by what I posted before. They're all fine for 9900K OC, though many Z370 boards I would say no, including the first revision X Hero. I'm still stacking them first revision X Hero, XI Hero, 1,01 X Hero / X Code / X Formula still. All accounts I know of have the VRM the same on those three Z370 boards, but feel free to dig.

I can't blame them for only including the Z390 boards on the QVL for the 9900K, given what they're going to be selling the binned ones for, and wanting to avoid any customer complaints, but obviously there are those top end VRM Z370 boards that should not really have any issues, so its not rational to use their list exclusively or anything.


----------



## porksmuggler

Robostyle said:


> Well I’ll be damned but Ive got hero with 1405I. And this one is already a year old! Ive bought it december 2017!
> 
> I can see ZF906 mosfets on high side aswell.
> 
> But I’m not really sure what does mean “dopler” in luxx’s table - does it mean my MB is 8phase design? Or its still 4?


Congratulations on the better VRM, dopler refers to the doublers, in this case IR3599. Really and truly its 4 phase, but using doublers is almost always marketed as 8 phases, but still better than nearly any you see listed as 4x2, which are not using doublers.

The VRM discussions usually devolve to a count of phases > being better, but that's not nearly the whole story, as generation to generation, there's some if minor improvements to cap quality (solid vs electrolytic ages ago), iron vs ferrite chokes, PWM controller complexity / "intelligence", and a slew of different FET configurations with sometimes improving characteristics, if implemented correctly.

I've read over this whole thread, and its mostly aggregation of component specs, reviews, graphs, not so much explanation of the voltage regulation circuit designs as a whole, but maybe worth going back and reading if you have time.


----------



## ArneR

Sorry for the delay, but here is the response to the Hero X 1.01 not necessarily having an updated vrm, mine clearly don't at least. 

Bad pictures I know, hard to get the camera in the right spot, but it has the ASP1400BT voltage controller, and the 0812ND Power blocks, and finally no doublers of any kind on the back of the board..





































Never lucky I guess.


----------



## CANTFINDCAPSLOCK

Looks like the old link to the tier list is broken. Can anyone post the updated Z390 tier list? Thanks!


----------



## voidcrus

CANTFINDCAPSLOCK said:


> Looks like the old link to the tier list is broken. Can anyone post the updated Z390 tier list? Thanks!


I was wondering the same, but with help from google images I was able to locate it. Here you go:
https://www.overclock.net/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=226512&d=1540327995


----------



## elmor

Extended 8-phase = 4x PWM signals + doubler IC in interleaving mode
Twin 8-phase = 4x PWM signals each to two power stages

Load step from 45A to 193A. What you see is the transient response, ie the resulting output voltage with load changes. It's not that the VRM has less droop, it's that the VRM is faster at adapting to the new load scenario resulting in less undershoot.























asdkj1740 said:


> Is there any chance on m11a the 16 phases are still in parallel design for better respond time.



Twin 16-phase (8 PWM signals, each connected to two power stages).


----------



## asdkj1740

ArneR said:


> Sorry for the delay, but here is the response to the Hero X 1.01 not necessarily having an updated vrm, mine clearly don't at least.
> 
> Bad pictures I know, hard to get the camera in the right spot, but it has the ASP1400BT voltage controller, and the 0812ND Power blocks, and finally no doublers of any kind on the back of the board..
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
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> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
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> 
> 
> Never lucky I guess.


thanks for your time dude. so sorry about your bad luck.
seems asus finaly solves the supply issue.
@br0ad, doublers on rev1.01's m10h & m10h wifi are all gone.


----------



## asdkj1740

elmor said:


> Extended 8-phase = 4x PWM signals + doubler IC in interleaving mode
> Twin 8-phase = 4x PWM signals each to two power stages
> 
> Load step from 45A to 193A. What you see is the transient response, ie the resulting output voltage with load changes. It's not that the VRM has less droop, it's that the VRM is faster at adapting to the new load scenario resulting in less undershoot.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Twin 16-phase (8 PWM signals, each connected to two power stages).


wow that is so impressive. asus m11a should be the only 16 phases vcore mobo that is not using doublers, this is mind blowing of not choosing to use extended design on such topest tier line. those "fake phases" haters must piss their pants lol.

i have heard that the twin desigin will have lower mosfets temp than the mosfets temp on extended design with doublers, is that generally true?
thanks, elmor.


----------



## tostitobandito

Great stuff elmor.


----------



## elmor

asdkj1740 said:


> wow that is so impressive. asus m11a should be the only 16 phases vcore mobo that is not using doublers, this is mind blowing of not choosing to use extended design on such topest tier line. those "fake phases" haters must piss their pants lol.
> 
> i have heard that the twin desigin will have lower mosfets temp than the mosfets temp on extended design with doublers, is that generally true?
> thanks, elmor.


Well as mentioned before, there are pros and cons with each design choice. You just have to figure out what makes more sense for you.

In terms of output current and MOSFET temperatures they perform similarly. With a doubler that's able to do current balancing, it would be possible to reduce peak temperatures. Typically the outer phases are colder than the central ones since they only have one neighbor (they heat each other). With current balancing you can shift current from the inner to the outer phases, reducing the temperatures of the hottest phases while increasing it for the coldest. This can also be done on a design level, so that phases turn on in an order that's optimal for thermal balancing.


----------



## asdkj1740

elmor said:


> Well as mentioned before, there are pros and cons with each design choice. You just have to figure out what makes more sense for you.
> 
> In terms of output current and MOSFET temperatures they perform similarly. With a doubler that's able to do current balancing, it would be possible to reduce peak temperatures. Typically the outer phases are colder than the central ones since they only have one neighbor (they heat each other). With current balancing you can shift current from the inner to the outer phases, reducing the temperatures of the hottest phases while increasing it for the coldest. This can also be done on a design level, so that phases turn on in an order that's optimal for thermal balancing.


thanks for the explanation. learn a lot from it


----------



## Robostyle

porksmuggler said:


> Congratulations on the better VRM, dopler refers to the doublers, in this case IR3599. Really and truly its 4 phase, but using doublers is almost always marketed as 8 phases, but still better than nearly any you see listed as 4x2, which are not using doublers.
> 
> The VRM discussions usually devolve to a count of phases > being better, but that's not nearly the whole story, as generation to generation, there's some if minor improvements to cap quality (solid vs electrolytic ages ago), iron vs ferrite chokes, PWM controller complexity / "intelligence", and a slew of different FET configurations with sometimes improving characteristics, if implemented correctly.
> 
> I've read over this whole thread, and its mostly aggregation of component specs, reviews, graphs, not so much explanation of the voltage regulation circuit designs as a whole, but maybe worth going back and reading if you have time.


Well yes, I know that mosfet quality comes first, and 4 solid phases would do the job better than poor quality 6-8, higher chance of whole vrm failure with higher count but poor quality, etc.
But what does mean 4x2 then? I thought they’ve meant doublers..


----------



## Raghar

ArneR said:


> Sorry for the delay, but here is the response to the Hero X 1.01 not necessarily having an updated vrm, mine clearly don't at least.
> 
> Bad pictures I know, hard to get the camera in the right spot, but it has the ASP1400BT voltage controller, and the 0812ND Power blocks, and finally no doublers of any kind on the back of the board..


https://www.ocaholic.ch/uploads/extgallery/public-photo/medium/ASUS-ROGMaximusXHero_52_642_a082c.JPG
This is image from OCaholic, doublers should be on left side.


----------



## eric98k

GIGABYTE Z390 UD & AORUS MASTER VRM testing & comparison
http://yujihw.com/review/gigabyte-ud-aorus-master-vrm-comparison

Setup: 9700K, 5.0GHz, vcore 1.35V
C-STATE & powersaving OFF, LLC=TURBO, XMP, AVX OFFSET=0, CPU RATIO=50
NOCTUA NH-D15S + 120MM 2000RPM FAN*2 (FULL SPEED)
Prime95 smallFFT 20min
No throttling


----------



## GAN77

Raghar said:


> https://www.ocaholic.ch/uploads/extgallery/public-photo/medium/ASUS-ROGMaximusXHero_52_642_a082c.JPG
> This is image from OCaholic, doublers should be on left side.


One more photo rev.1.01


----------



## elmor

A note on voltage reporting on the Maximus XI-series, and voltage measurements in general. Like on Crosshair VII Hero, we've improved the SIO voltage readings for better accuracy. The CPU Core Voltage is now reading very close to the voltage the CPU is getting. Applied voltages and load-line levels are comparable to before, but not the software voltage readings.

When measuring voltages on a motherboard and large currents are involved, it's important to use accurate measurement points due to resistance/impedance present on the board. The power plane for example can be modeled as a resistor connected in series between the VRM output and the target device, together with Ohm's law, U = R*I. The larger the current, the larger the voltage drop. If you measure the voltage at the VRM output, for example at the inductor, you'll see a large difference compared to the voltage measured at the CPU socket MLCC. What we're interested in is what voltage the CPU die is actually getting after passing through the output filter, power plane, socket and package.










The Super I/O controller is used by BIOS/AiSuite/CPU-Z/HWInfo/AIDA64 for reading most voltages, temperatures and fan speeds. Its single-ended ADC inputs measure the input voltage referenced to the local SIO ground. With increased VRM output currents, this reading will be more and more inaccurate. We've added a circuit for measuring the differential CPU-die sense and converting it to a single-ended signal to the SIO. The CPU-die sense is accessible through two dedicated pins on the CPU, and are routed to the supply and ground on the CPU die itself. It's typically used by the CPU VRM controller for output voltage control.

Something to look out for is when you're seeing a voltage reported during load which is much higher than what you've set. It would require a negative load-line which is just not supported on any controller as far as I know. At 0 mOhm load-line, you get exactly what you set (Level 8 on M11).

The resulting difference can be seen in the graph below. 

Prime95 26.6 12K FFTs

Manual Mode Voltage = Voltage set in BIOS
CPU-die Sense = DMM measurement of the CPU die-sense pins, "true" CPU Core Voltage
Socket MLCC = DMM measurement of the capacitors at the back of the socket
SIO (traditional) = Software reading with standard SIO voltage sense circuit
SIO (Maximus XI Hero) = Software reading with the improved SIO voltage sense circuit


----------



## toncij

GBT-MatthewH said:


> Here's what I found: Z390 Master, 9900k, LLC Turbo, Vcore 1.35 (Edit: at 5 GHz)
> 
> Voltage readout points via multimeter: 1.348
> ITE8688: 1.368
> ITE8792: 1.342
> 
> So looks like on Z390 ITE8792 is closer to the real voltage. YMMV.


A bit of a digression, but critical in my consideration of those boards: is MSR 0xE2 locked for your boards?


----------



## toncij

eric98k said:


> AlphaC's summary: https://www.overclock.net/forum/27657582-post2156.html
> 
> Top tier: EVGA Dark, MSI Godlike, GBT Aorus Extreme, Asus M11E & M11G


Not updated somewhere with ASRock Taichi Ultimate info, maybe? Godlike seems way overpriced. Any point in that?


----------



## vvoid

elmor said:


> A note on voltage reporting on the Maximus XI-series, and voltage measurements in general.
> ...


Thanks elmor, very interesting! 
Do I understand this correctly: No matter which board, the highest LLC-setting can never supply more than the BIOS-set vcore voltage to the cpu. (Well, apart from some fixed under/overvolting maybe.) The readouts we see in software have always been far too high, only with Maximus XI series this has changed. Right?


----------



## Stockman

Did another run last night, this time with no airflow on open frame case.

AIDA64 stress test for 30 min
Maximus Hero XI
EVGA AIO
9700k @ 5.4GHz @ 1.385v
Max package: 92c
Max package power: 167w
Max VRM: 64c
I've maxed out most, if not all of the current settings in BIOS similar to what Steve did at GN video.
Also changed BIOS VRM setting to "Full Phase Mode". I can't remember the exact name of the setting.

Hopefully someone finds this useful, then again most are more interested in the 9900k. 🙂

My Max package power for this test was 167w...when I run Cinebench it is closer to 200w. What is the maximum watts the Hero XI can deliver?


----------



## mosfetx

Robostyle said:


> Well yes, I know that mosfet quality comes first, and 4 solid phases would do the job better than poor quality 6-8, higher chance of whole vrm failure with higher count but poor quality, etc.
> But what does mean 4x2 then? I thought they’ve meant doublers..


4x2 means it's 4-phases with no doublers (unless stated), double the components but not double the PWM signals.


----------



## Robbært

Stockman said:


> Maximus Hero XI
> My Max package power for this test was 167w...when I run Cinebench it is closer to 200w. What is the maximum watts the Hero XI can deliver?


8* SiC639 can deliver 200A (277W) with 90% effectivity, up to about 440W while 82% effective.


----------



## porksmuggler

Robostyle said:


> Well yes, I know that mosfet quality comes first, and 4 solid phases would do the job better than poor quality 6-8, higher chance of whole vrm failure with higher count but poor quality, etc.
> But what does mean 4x2 then? I thought they’ve meant doublers..


4x2 references an arrangement without doublers. elmor actually just described asus' nomenclature for each a few posts back. They're referring to 4 true phases with doublers ( a virtual 8 phase) as extended, and the older in general, but newer for z390, 4 true phases to parallel integrated FETs (also a virtual 8 phase) as twin.

elmor pointed out a posivite for that arrangement, and a few positives for the doubler arrangment. The main reason I think were seeing the twin is saving space and cost reduction through fewer discrete components. Looks good for the twin 8 phase top of the line maximus xi board, but again in my eyes, not as good as the maximus x arrangement with doublers when down to 4 phase, due to thermal and noise concerns from the increased duty load of the lower amperage FETs. It seems asus unfortunately went the same way as asrock previously, with multiple vrm designs on same revisions, in this case the 1,01 x hero, with however many x heros using the doubler design same as the x code / formula being obviously better than the first revision x hero.


----------



## toncij

Robbært said:


> 8* SiC639 can deliver 200A (277W) with 90% effectivity, up to about 440W while 82% effective.


So that's pretty much enough for a 9900K at 1.35V-1.39V and 5.2GHz-5.3GHz...? From my calculations.


----------



## Raghar

vvoid said:


> Do I understand this correctly: No matter which board, the highest LLC-setting can never supply more than the BIOS-set vcore voltage to the cpu.











When VRM is supplying low power demand, and CPU abruptly request higher consumption, the voltage supplied tend to overshot. It tends to overshot more with high LLC because LLC tries to compensate for voltage drop caused by power consumption. 

It's nicely visible in the above image, posted by elmor few pages ago.
Intel specification expects drop in voltage when CPU runs at max power. Aka the most safe setting is with LLC off.



> (Well, apart from some fixed under/overvolting maybe.) The readouts we see in software have always been far too high, only with Maximus XI series this has changed. Right?


You need oscilloscope when you want to see the overshot. Majority of multimeters are showing only voltage averages. And I'm pretty sure MB manufacturers wants to show voltage readings when voltage stabilized into that thick line.

Voltage readings should be always seen as relatively imprecise, it's only third best thing after oscilloscope and multimeter.


----------



## asdkj1740

porksmuggler said:


> 4x2 references an arrangement without doublers. elmor actually just described asus' nomenclature for each a few posts back. They're referring to 4 true phases with doublers ( a virtual 8 phase) as extended, and the older in general, but newer for z390, 4 true phases to parallel integrated FETs (also a virtual 8 phase) as twin.
> 
> elmor pointed out a posivite for that arrangement, and a few positives for the doubler arrangment. The main reason I think were seeing the twin is saving space and cost reduction through fewer discrete components. Looks good for the twin 8 phase top of the line maximus xi board, but again in my eyes, not as good as the maximus x arrangement with doublers when down to 4 phase, due to thermal and noise concerns from the increased duty load of the lower amperage FETs. It seems asus unfortunately went the same way as asrock previously, with multiple vrm designs on same revisions, in this case the 1,01 x hero, with however many x heros using the doubler design same as the x code / formula being obviously better than the first revision x hero.


i highly doubt asus needs to save cost on m11e and m11a, that is freaking nonsense. asus can charge what ever they want on these two mobos, especially the m11a aims at ln2 overclocking which needs the best vrm.


----------



## porksmuggler

asdkj1740 said:


> i highly doubt asus needs to save cost on m11e and m11a, that is freaking nonsense. asus can charge what ever they want on these two mobos, especially the m11a aims at ln2 overclocking which needs the best vrm.


Not what I said, and reading some of your other posts, not worth explaining to you.


----------



## tostitobandito

toncij said:


> So that's pretty much enough for a 9900K at 1.35V-1.39V and 5.2GHz-5.3GHz...? From my calculations.



The board has been used in LN2 overclocking in the realm of 1.7-1.8v and 6.5-7.0GHz, so it can go well higher than that.


----------



## vvoid

Raghar said:


> When VRM is supplying low power demand, and CPU abruptly request higher consumption, the voltage supplied tend to overshot. It tends to overshot more with high LLC because LLC tries to compensate for voltage drop caused by power consumption.
> 
> It's nicely visible in the above image, posted by elmor few pages ago.
> Intel specification expects drop in voltage when CPU runs at max power. Aka the most safe setting is with LLC off.
> 
> You need oscilloscope when you want to see the overshot. Majority of multimeters are showing only voltage averages. And I'm pretty sure MB manufacturers wants to show voltage readings when voltage stabilized into that thick line.
> Voltage readings should be always seen as relatively imprecise, it's only third best thing after oscilloscope and multimeter.



Yes, I should have mentioned over/undershooting due to changing power consumption, that's clear and not what I meant. Voltage spikes will occur, dependent on LLC level. I was more refering to these graphs in general:










Can we deduce from this that every board up to Maximus XI series showed far too high "averaged" vcore voltage? And that the stabilized voltage after overshoot never can be higher than BIOS set voltage, regardless of LLC setting?
I'm asking this specifically, because literally for decades, lol, I was under the impression that high LLC settings really do provide higher voltages than set in BIOS, under load that is. But if I interpret elmor's post correctly, this always was due to bad sensor readings or even bad manual measurements and is technically impossible.

But if this is true, why wouldn't the manufacturers have taken actions to correct the readouts long ago? Is Asus the only company and only for Maximus XI-series boards? Seems strange to me...
(Edit: Would be quite clever though: Reviews can state "CPU OC-stable on 1.3V on Hero, whereas board XYZ needed 1.42V!" )


----------



## Alex Atkin UK

Has anyone checked the ROG STRIX Z370-I?

I believe its meant to be a beast for an ITX and comparable to the ATX boards. I could have sworn the BIOS had a 255W limit but that seems a little high and I wouldn't want to get a 9900k and kill the VRMs. Odds are in an ITX case I'm going to hit thermal limits first mind you.


----------



## Falkentyne

Raghar said:


> When VRM is supplying low power demand, and CPU abruptly request higher consumption, the voltage supplied tend to overshot. It tends to overshot more with high LLC because LLC tries to compensate for voltage drop caused by power consumption.
> 
> It's nicely visible in the above image, posted by elmor few pages ago.
> Intel specification expects drop in voltage when CPU runs at max power. Aka the most safe setting is with LLC off.
> 
> 
> You need oscilloscope when you want to see the overshot. Majority of multimeters are showing only voltage averages. And I'm pretty sure MB manufacturers wants to show voltage readings when voltage stabilized into that thick line.
> 
> Voltage readings should be always seen as relatively imprecise, it's only third best thing after oscilloscope and multimeter.


Do you have any recommendations for a decent (read: not cheap) oscilloscope that won't cost as much as a small car (meaning: NOT for rich people?)


----------



## AlphaC

Z390 Extreme4 (i7-8700k CPU used): https://www.ocinside.de/review/mainboard_asrock_z390_extreme4/3/

ROG Hero : https://www.overclock3d.net/reviews/cpu_mainboard/asus_rog_z390_maximus_xi_hero_review/6




porksmuggler said:


> Congratulations on the better VRM, dopler refers to the doublers, in this case IR3599. Really and truly its 4 phase, but using doublers is almost always marketed as 8 phases, but still better than nearly any you see listed as 4x2, which are not using doublers.
> 
> The VRM discussions usually devolve to a count of phases > being better, but that's not nearly the whole story, as generation to generation, there's some if minor improvements to cap quality (solid vs electrolytic ages ago), iron vs ferrite chokes, PWM controller complexity / "intelligence", and a slew of different FET configurations with sometimes improving characteristics, if implemented correctly.
> 
> I've read over this whole thread, and its mostly aggregation of component specs, reviews, graphs, not so much explanation of the voltage regulation circuit designs as a whole, but maybe worth going back and reading if you have time.


I don't think any vendor uses iron chokes anymore. It's been the same FP solid caps on multiple generations now at the high end and top of midrange.

I'm not sure what you want here , it's a _discussion_ of VRM quality not an EE thread or fearmongering "ASUS ROG is terrible"  thread that some people are trying to turn it into. The whole reason why the tiering list was made (based off the amperage maximums quoted by the CPU manufacturer as well as reviewers' CPU power use) was people complaining about having to figure out which solutions weren't outright poor choices at a glance without having to read spec sheets. Likewise there's no sane reason for someone to buy a $600 Godlike for example if they're using a Coolermaster 212 only capable of ~150W tops at 1500RPM. I've seen people still complain about how it is _"too hard"_ to read and how even though they are using AIO water they want to have an even more granular market segmentation (doesn't make sense to me when there's a 193A limit). Sin0822 (tweaktown's Steven) used to do it but for whatever reason he stopped and now his reviews are either at stock speed or with fans maxed out at 2000RPM.

A while back for example, Asrock was using DPAKS on their Z77 Extreme4 which are really poor even though they advertised the board for overclocking. Now all boards are at least running SO-8 mosfet Low RDS(on) packages (yes even those NIKOS people hate). For Z370 there was a pretty big problem with >100°C and power throttle across all lineups.

Basically each board is trying to achieve 12V DC to 1.2 (up to 1.52V) DC voltage stepdown (aka buck converter). The goal of a multiphase buck converter is to maintain peak efficiency and lower thermals across the load range which is why phase shedding (turn off phases on low load) and such is used. The second main electrical goal of a multiphase buck converter is to reduce ripple and improve transient performance. Heat generation is just a side effect of a poor design , heat concentration is typically due to low efficiency , poor PWM tuning, and/or low thermal conductivity via the thermal solution.

Output capacitance across the entire lineup of all boards is quite similar from what I've seen. It is used to minimize overshoot , but higher capacitance results in slower transient.

The inductor and output capacitor act as an output filter.

Component specs define the physical limits of the board. If your car has 140HP for example, do you think you can hit 200mph if it weighs 3200lb? Do you think if a chassis + suspension can only do a slalom at <60mph and skidpad at < 0.8g that it will be good handling? If we had the resistances, input filter capacitor values, output capacitor values, inductor values and all other specs you could probably make a PSPICE model and simulate each circuit. But that's not what the board does in reality , which is why multiple reviews are used.

If you look an AN6005 from ONsemi or TI's slva882 it will be probably be of help to you. 

https://www.fairchildsemi.com/application-notes/AN/AN-6005.pdf 

http://www.ti.com/lit/an/slva882/slva882.pdf
http://www.ti.com/lit/an/slyt449/slyt449.pdf
https://training.ti.com/multiphase-buck-regulator-design-case-study
https://www.eetimes.com/document.asp?doc_id=1273224 ---- ISL99227B
http://www.ti.com/lit/an/slta055/slta055.pdf --- input/output capacitor selection
http://www.onsemi.com/pub/Collateral/AND9135-D.PDF --- inductor / cap selection
https://www.analog.com/en/analog-dialogue/articles/applying-dc-to-dc-step-down-buck-regulators.html
https://www.eetimes.com/document.asp?doc_id=1224753
https://www.electronicdesign.com/po...onverters-solve-tough-power-design-challenges
https://www.fairchildsemi.com/application-notes/AN/AN-4162.pdf ---- switch node ringing

Not as reliable reading: https://en.wikichip.org/wiki/voltage_regulator_module

One thing I haven't seen yet for low load applications on motherboards is the use of Volterra PWM with coupled inductor for low phase counts.

-----------------


*elmor* , is it because the same inductor + capacitor is used in both cases? The doubled scheme looks more under-damped.

Are both using the same powerstages in the oscilloscope output graph you provided or is it the IR3555 for the doubled scheme with SiC639 for the "extended"?

Also it's probably worth noting that people won't have nearly the same performance (thermal or otherwise) with a "extended" Powerpak implementation. Otherwise people will buy TUF or MSI midrange boards thinking they'll get this performance level... 

P.S. thanks for taking time out of your day to reply to these threads 


------




Falkentyne said:


> Do you have any recommendations for a decent (read: not cheap) oscilloscope that won't cost as much as a small car (meaning: NOT for rich people?)


For 2 channel probably a Keysight (relatively new within the past year to entry level market), Tektronix, or Siglent of some sort.

You need something with at least five times the signal bandwidth to get a decent measurement within 2% error. This shouldn't be an issue , everything is normally 500kHz so at most you'll need 10MHz for 2MHz (500kHz quadrupled). 

It'll also have to have at most one fifth of the rise time of the mosfets if you want the most accuracy. You'd need something with <400 picosecond rise (Sinopower SM7341 powerblock + Nexfets and such have below 10ns rise times ; below 5ns for Infineon Optimos).


You want at least 10x the sample rate of the highest frequency to be accurate , so 2MHz (500kHz quadrupled) is around 20MSa/s. This is generally not the biggest issue as the rise time on lower end scopes is by far a larger issue.



There's scopes with edge trigger and PWM trigger.

i.e. 


Siglent SDS1202X-E: 1 GSa/s, 200MHz bandwidth , typical 1.8 ns rise time
Keysight DSOX1102A : 2 Gs/s, 70MHz bandwidth, 5ns rise time 

Rigol DS1054Z spec: 1Gs/s , 50MHz bandwidth , 7ns rise time --- rise time might be a problem , this is what Buildzoid used previously


----------



## porksmuggler

AlphaC said:


> I don't think any vendor uses iron chokes anymore. It's been the same FP solid caps on multiple generations now at the high end and top of midrange.
> 
> I'm not sure what you want here , it's a _discussion_ of VRM quality not an EE thread or fearmongering "ASUS ROG is terrible"  thread that some people are trying to turn it into.


To be clear, I'm not here seeking your understanding of VRMs, though its great you're aggregating the reviews and datasheets for others. I imagine the review sites would rather you didn't copy and paste so much of their content, and prefer the forum members click the links at least, lol. I'm here mostly for the responses from the professionals at Asus, Gigabyte, etc.

While I'm here, I might respond to questions I was seeing throughout the forum about comparing the VRMs, and that's what I'll continue doing. I have a background in CE/EE, degrees, diplomas, certs in all manner of electronics, and 30 years of system building. When I reference some outdated information, its just historical. I in no way meant any current boards used iron chokes, and I think you honestly were aware of that.

Like I said in one of my previous posts, I'm a semi-retired system builder, but my former day job, which I'm fully retired was overseeing financial analytics for a corporation roughly ten times the size of Asus, in revenue, in profit, in employees, so I think I should be able to make comments as to their product decisions, without another forum members saying its "freaking nonsense".

Sounds like a few of you don't want any counter points, that's fine, but there's no Asus witch hunt in my comments in this thread to date. I did mention I use their boards for my personal builds.


----------



## Falkentyne

AlphaC said:


> For 2 channel probably a Keysight (relatively new within the past year to entry level market), Tektronix, or Siglent of some sort.
> 
> You need something with at least five times the signal bandwidth to get a decent measurement within 2% error. This shouldn't be an issue , everything is normally 500kHz so at most you'll need 10MHz for 2MHz (500kHz quadrupled).
> 
> It'll also have to have at most one fifth of the rise time of the mosfets if you want the most accuracy. You'd need something with <400 picosecond rise (Sinopower SM7341 powerblock + Nexfets and such have below 10ns rise times ; below 5ns for Infineon Optimos).
> 
> 
> You want at least 10x the sample rate of the highest frequency to be accurate , so 2MHz (500kHz quadrupled) is around 20MSa/s. This is generally not the biggest issue as the rise time on lower end scopes is by far a larger issue.
> 
> 
> 
> There's scopes with edge trigger and PWM trigger.
> 
> i.e.
> 
> 
> Siglent SDS1202X-E: 1 GSa/s, 200MHz bandwidth , typical 1.8 ns rise time
> Keysight DSOX1102A : 2 Gs/s, 70MHz bandwidth, 5ns rise time
> 
> Rigol DS1054Z spec: 1Gs/s , 50MHz bandwidth , 7ns rise time --- rise time might be a problem , this is what Buildzoid used previously


Thank you.
So 
https://www.amazon.com/Siglent-Technologies-SDS1202X-Oscilloscope-Channels/dp/B06XZML6RD 
it will be then.

But shouldn't I be buying a 4 channel version instead of a 2 channel?

Also,
Would this one be a better choice?

https://www.amazon.com/Siglent-Technologies-SDS1102X-Digital-Oscilloscope/dp/B01410O5D2

Found the 4 channel one:

https://www.amazon.com/Siglent-SDS1104X-oscilloscope-Channels-Standard/dp/B0771N1ZF9

I'll choose one of those two.

I'm new to this so i'm sorry if i'm asking silly questions. Any accessories recommended so i can properly hook up and measure the vcore without making the magic smoke come out?
And any other advice (or you can just PM me if you want).

But first I need a motherboard and CPU and DDR4 (and Noctua NH D15 heatsink of course), before I can even think of an oscilloscope!


----------



## elmor

vvoid said:


> Yes, I should have mentioned over/undershooting due to changing power consumption, that's clear and not what I meant. Voltage spikes will occur, dependent on LLC level. I was more refering to these graphs in general:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Can we deduce from this that every board up to Maximus XI series showed far too high "averaged" vcore voltage? And that the stabilized voltage after overshoot never can be higher than BIOS set voltage, regardless of LLC setting?
> I'm asking this specifically, because literally for decades, lol, I was under the impression that high LLC settings really do provide higher voltages than set in BIOS, under load that is. But if I interpret elmor's post correctly, this always was due to bad sensor readings or even bad manual measurements and is technically impossible.
> 
> But if this is true, why wouldn't the manufacturers have taken actions to correct the readouts long ago? Is Asus the only company and only for Maximus XI-series boards? Seems strange to me...
> (Edit: Would be quite clever though: Reviews can state "CPU OC-stable on 1.3V on Hero, whereas board XYZ needed 1.42V!" )



With rapidly increasing output currents this error is getting larger and larger. It needs additional circuitry, which is why we only have it on the Maximus-line. If you have a board with an IR controller, it should show up in HWInfo showing the CPU-die sense voltage. You can compare this value with the SIO reported value.




AlphaC said:


> I don't think any vendor uses iron chokes anymore.


Wouldn't be so sure of that.



AlphaC said:


> *elmor* , is it because the same inductor + capacitor is used in both cases? The doubled scheme looks more under-damped.
> 
> Are both using the same powerstages in the oscilloscope output graph you provided or is it the IR3555 for the doubled scheme with SiC639 for the "extended"?
> 
> Also it's probably worth noting that people won't have nearly the same performance (thermal or otherwise) with a "extended" Powerpak implementation. Otherwise people will buy TUF or MSI midrange boards thinking they'll get this performance level...
> 
> P.S. thanks for taking time out of your day to reply to these threads


Measurements were provided by our power team, same components in both cases except the topology. Dr MOS power stages are better in every way AFAIK, both in efficiency and turn on/off delay.

edit:

Correction:

Extended 8-phase - ASP1405 + IR3599 + IR3535 + ZF906
Twin 8-phase - ASP1400 + SIC639


----------



## asdkj1740

hi @elmor, can you confirm the z370 m10h(wifi) rev1.01 are no longer having the extended vrm design and go back to the original twin vrm design?
thank you.


----------



## Sin0822

elmor said:


> Measurements were provided by our power team, same components in both cases except the topology. Dr MOS power stages are better in every way AFAIK, both in efficiency and turn on/off delay.


Are you including PowIRstages as DrMOS?


----------



## asdkj1740

porksmuggler said:


> Not what I said, and reading some of your other posts, not worth explaining to you.


it is fine so be it. it is good to have your professional and experienced comments here contributing to the thread.


----------



## porksmuggler

asdkj1740 said:


> it is fine so be it. it is good to have your professional and experienced comments here contributing to the thread.


I think we both share one similar question currently. What is the prevalence of those rev 1,01 x hero boards with the doubler circuit topos, and which 1,01 boards is SL testing on, because that's going to factor into the determination of which if any Asus Z370 boards end up on their CLR QVL. Not particularly relevant to me, but I think many X hero users might want to know before they decide whether to budget another board to go with their shiny new 9900K (Prescott 2,0).


----------



## ScomComputers

Another review.....ROG Z390-F GAMING:
8xSiC639
https://www.unikoshardware.com/2018...-96JjwvxzNYevWt7QQ6zh1xWdpiA4Z89hpmfiuU6RT7Sw
I dont understands....Asia SiC639,Eu NCP302045.
Now what is this?
But it's about the same, +-5A Not the big difference.
True?


----------



## toncij

AlphaC said:


> Z390 Extreme4 (i7-8700k CPU used): https://www.ocinside.de/review/mainboard_asrock_z390_extreme4/3/
> 
> ROG Hero : https://www.overclock3d.net/reviews/cpu_mainboard/asus_rog_z390_maximus_xi_hero_review/6



As someone already using a ROG Maximus X Formula, just trying to figure out if it's required to get a new board for a 9900K swap overclocked under water and with high load on IMC (4,266GHz)...


----------



## DVH2015

Hi guys, do you think a Asrock Z370 Prof. Fat. that I currently have can handle 9900k @5GHZ all cores?


----------



## elmor

asdkj1740 said:


> hi @elmor, can you confirm the z370 m10h(wifi) rev1.01 are no longer having the extended vrm design and go back to the original twin vrm design?
> thank you.


I think the extended design was temporarily used because of supply issues, if those got solved I'd assume they went back to the previous design. I don't think the PCB Revision would indicate anything about which VRM configuration is on there.




Sin0822 said:


> Are you including PowIRstages as DrMOS?


Yes. Anything with driver, high-side and low-side fets in the same package.


----------



## asdkj1740

elmor said:


> I think the extended design was temporarily used because of supply issues, if those got solved I'd assume they went back to the previous design. I don't think the PCB Revision would indicate anything about which VRM configuration is on there.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yes. Anything with driver, high-side and low-side fets in the same package.


oic thanks for the update.
the best supply issue ever is solved, what a shame lol.
so what are the changes on rev1.01 m10h(wifi)?


@br0da, sorry about the misleading info, please delete the rev1.01 for asus m10h (wifi) vrm info.


----------



## Robostyle

So I've just got lucky to get M10H with M10F-type VRM? 

BTW, there were reports about M10H not having VRM T sensor - I wonder if it's somehow related....


----------



## Robbært

Robostyle said:


> So I've just got lucky to get M10H with M10F-type VRM?
> 
> BTW, there were reports about M10H not having VRM T sensor - I wonder if it's somehow related....


No, it was because it not there if you look at Asus product page.
XI Hero, click "thrilling perfomance" - "cooling design"
X Hero, under "cooler by design"
And XI Extreme do show VRM sensor, click "thrilling perfomance" - "cooling design"
Misleading product information.


----------



## SpeedyIV

elmor said:


> I think the extended design was temporarily used because of supply issues, if those got solved I'd assume they went back to the previous design. I don't think the PCB Revision would indicate anything about which VRM configuration is on there.





Robbært said:


> No, it was because it not there if you look at Asus product page.
> XI Hero, click "thrilling perfomance" - "cooling design"
> X Hero, under "cooler by design"
> And XI Extreme do show VRM sensor, click "thrilling perfomance" - "cooling design"
> Misleading product information.


Asus Max X Hero wifi web page used to show a Thermometer over the VRM. Now that Thermometer does not appear. I posted screen shots of both images of the board, one with a Thermometer over the VRM and a later one with no Thermometer over the VRM. Here they are again. A few people report that they do get a VRM Temp reported but most do not. I even Googled a bunch of Max X Hero reviews that had Bios screen shots in them. None of them showed a VRM Temp in the BIOS. Curiously, none of the reviews even mentioned that there was no VRM temp reported. 

There were many posts about the disappearing VRM temp on Max X Hero and Hero wifi on this forum and the ROG forum, but no one from Asus ever responded. The author of HWINFO told me it was due to a component change in the VRM circuitry. I was advised by some experts here not to worry about it since VRM temps were not really a concern on Z370 like they are with X299. Now with Z390, VRM design is the subject of intense scrutiny and (I guess) because of this, the differences in the 2 versions of Max X Hero / Hero Wifi are coming up again. 

My Max X Hero wifi does not report VRM temp. I ended up sticking a temp probe up under the VRM heat sink and hoping it's close to accurate. I am 99% sure my board is rev1.01. I guess I need to inspect it and compare against the close up photos to be sure since Elmor states that PCB revision does not necessarily indicate which VRM design is present.

I will say I feel slighted by Asus. Their web page used to infer (but did not state) that there is a VRM Temp sensor by showing a Thermometer in that location. That Thermometer has vanished from the image on the web page, and apparently what is now an important, previously advertised feature was removed from some (most) Max X Hero / Hero wifi boards. When people noticed and started posting about it, Asus reps refused to comment even though they were actively posting in the same threads. Asus never did respond to any posts about this (AFAIK). 

So Elmor, will you please respond to this and confirm that the Max X Hero / Hero Wifi did report VRM temp, and then the design was changed (for whatever reason) and the revised design does NOT report a VRM Temp, and that Asus quietly removed the Thermometer symbol over the VRM from the MOBO image on the web page?

Edit to add - I just looked at the current Asus web page for the Max X Hero Wifi and it looks like Asus has totally redesigned the web page. Now it does not seem to have any picture of the MOBO with little thermometers floating over the areas with temp sensors. Maybe its just me but I find the new web page layout confusing and difficult to extract information from. Maybe Asus marketing decided to stop putting pictures of motherboards with thermometers showing temp sensor locations so when they decide to modify the design due to component sourcing problems (or whatever reason), and in doing so remove an important temp sensor without saying anything so they can keep moving product, that they can't get caught by someone with before and after pics liker I have posted here.

What offends me the most is that Asus apparently did this and then refused to comment on it, confirm or deny, and then the thermometer over the VRM disappears from their website. Now, a year later, when I am wondering if my Max X Hero can fully support an i9 9900K, I have a MOBO with no VRM temp semsor (other than the probe I stuck under the heat sink), and an inferior VRM design that Asus switched to so they could keep shipping boards. So I am really anxious to see if Elmor will address this. At least he has now admitted that there are in fact 2 versions of VRM on the Max X Hero / Hero wifi. I would like a confirmation that one version of VRM reports a VRM temp and the other version they jumped to due to component sourcing issues, does not report a VRM temp, and that Asus did not and would not confirm this on this forum or the ROG forum.


----------



## Robostyle

Here - mine M10H does have VRM sensor


----------



## rt123

elmor said:


> Good things come to those who wait


Better have XP.


----------



## g7713019

SpeedyIV said:


> What offends me the most is that Asus apparently did this and then refused to comment on it, confirm or deny, and then the thermometer over the VRM disappears from their website. Now, a year later, when I am wondering if my Max X Hero can fully support an i9 9900K, I have a MOBO with no VRM temp semsor (other than the probe I stuck under the heat sink), and *an inferior VRM design* that Asus switched to so they could keep shipping boards. So I am really anxious to see if Elmor will address this. At least he has now admitted that there are in fact 2 versions of VRM on the Max X Hero / Hero wifi. I would like a confirmation that one version of VRM reports a VRM temp and the other version they jumped to due to component sourcing issues, does not report a VRM temp, and that Asus did not and would not confirm this on this forum or the ROG forum.


Can you clarify which version of Maximus X Hero is inferior?(Original or rev 1.01?)

If I recall, the original is this: http://112.172.165.208/data/editor/1710/thumb-Bimg_20171012145258_gxbdqovi.jpg

And the revision 1.01 looks like this: https://www.overclock.net/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=219246&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1537441897


----------



## porksmuggler

asdkj1740 said:


> oic thanks for the update.
> the best supply issue ever is solved, what a shame lol.
> so what are the changes on rev1.01 m10h(wifi)?
> 
> 
> @br0da, sorry about the misleading info, please delete the rev1.01 for asus m10h (wifi) vrm info.





g7713019 said:


> Can you clarify which version of Maximus X Hero is inferior?(Original or rev 1.01?)
> 
> If I recall, the original is this: http://112.172.165.208/data/editor/1710/thumb-Bimg_20171012145258_gxbdqovi.jpg
> 
> And the revision 1.01 looks like this: https://www.overclock.net/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=219246&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1537441897


The original ROG Maximus X Hero / (WiFi) use an ASP1400BT PWM controller and a parallel 4 x 2 BSG0812ND FET arrangment. Likely most of the ROG Maximus X Hero / (WiFi) Rev.1.01 boards have that same VRM. Possibly due to a supply shortage, there are these boards with the ASP1405I PWM controller, IR3599 doublers and ZF906 FETs, like used in the ROG Maximus X Formula and Code.

@br0da I think it would be best to indicate both voltage regulation circuits exist in the table, just as you have for the boards with multiple MOSFET arrangements.


----------



## Feklar

SpeedyIV said:


> Asus Max X Hero wifi web page used to show a Thermometer over the VRM. Now that Thermometer does not appear. I posted screen shots of both images of the board, one with a Thermometer over the VRM and a later one with no Thermometer over the VRM. Here they are again. A few people report that they do get a VRM Temp reported but most do not. I even Googled a bunch of Max X Hero reviews that had Bios screen shots in them. None of them showed a VRM Temp in the BIOS. Curiously, none of the reviews even mentioned that there was no VRM temp reported.
> 
> There were many posts about the disappearing VRM temp on Max X Hero and Hero wifi on this forum and the ROG forum, but no one from Asus ever responded. The author of HWINFO told me it was due to a component change in the VRM circuitry. I was advised by some experts here not to worry about it since VRM temps were not really a concern on Z370 like they are with X299. Now with Z390, VRM design is the subject of intense scrutiny and (I guess) because of this, the differences in the 2 versions of Max X Hero / Hero Wifi are coming up again.
> 
> My Max X Hero wifi does not report VRM temp. I ended up sticking a temp probe up under the VRM heat sink and hoping it's close to accurate. I am 99% sure my board is rev1.01. I guess I need to inspect it and compare against the close up photos to be sure since Elmor states that PCB revision does not necessarily indicate which VRM design is present.
> 
> I will say I feel slighted by Asus. Their web page used to infer (but did not state) that there is a VRM Temp sensor by showing a Thermometer in that location. That Thermometer has vanished from the image on the web page, and apparently what is now an important, previously advertised feature was removed from some (most) Max X Hero / Hero wifi boards. When people noticed and started posting about it, Asus reps refused to comment even though they were actively posting in the same threads. Asus never did respond to any posts about this (AFAIK).
> 
> So Elmor, will you please respond to this and confirm that the Max X Hero / Hero Wifi did report VRM temp, and then the design was changed (for whatever reason) and the revised design does NOT report a VRM Temp, and that Asus quietly removed the Thermometer symbol over the VRM from the MOBO image on the web page?
> 
> Edit to add - I just looked at the current Asus web page for the Max X Hero Wifi and it looks like Asus has totally redesigned the web page. Now it does not seem to have any picture of the MOBO with little thermometers floating over the areas with temp sensors. Maybe its just me but I find the new web page layout confusing and difficult to extract information from. Maybe Asus marketing decided to stop putting pictures of motherboards with thermometers showing temp sensor locations so when they decide to modify the design due to component sourcing problems (or whatever reason), and in doing so remove an important temp sensor without saying anything so they can keep moving product, that they can't get caught by someone with before and after pics liker I have posted here.
> 
> What offends me the most is that Asus apparently did this and then refused to comment on it, confirm or deny, and then the thermometer over the VRM disappears from their website. Now, a year later, when I am wondering if my Max X Hero can fully support an i9 9900K, I have a MOBO with no VRM temp semsor (other than the probe I stuck under the heat sink), and an inferior VRM design that Asus switched to so they could keep shipping boards. So I am really anxious to see if Elmor will address this. At least he has now admitted that there are in fact 2 versions of VRM on the Max X Hero / Hero wifi. I would like a confirmation that one version of VRM reports a VRM temp and the other version they jumped to due to component sourcing issues, does not report a VRM temp, and that Asus did not and would not confirm this on this forum or the ROG forum.


I have the Hero X non-WIFI and it does report vrm temps. I have a few friends that have the Hero X non-wifi and some with the Hero X wifi. Those with the Hero X have a vrm temp reporting and those with the Hero X wifi do not have vrm temp reporting. Perhaps a coincidence, perhaps not.


----------



## eric98k

ASUS ROG: How to overclock your system using AI Overclocking
https://rog.asus.com/articles/overclocking/how-to-overclock-your-system-using-ai-overclocking/


----------



## eric98k

*der8auer*: i9-9900K at the Limit | OC the easy way | *ASUS MAXIMUS XI Overclocking Guide*

ASUS MAXIMUS XI EXTREME
Intel i9-9900K (Caseking pretested)
Noctua NH-D15
Thermal Grizzly Kryonaut
G.Skill TridentZ RGB 3600C16
ASUS RTX 2080 Ti Strix OC


----------



## ScomComputers

eric98k said:


> *der8auer*: i9-9900K at the Limit | OC the easy way | *ASUS MAXIMUS XI Overclocking Guide*


Thanks!


----------



## Robostyle

eric98k said:


> *der8auer*: i9-9900K at the Limit | OC the easy way | *ASUS MAXIMUS XI Overclocking Guide*
> 
> ASUS MAXIMUS XI EXTREME
> Intel i9-9900K (Caseking pretested)
> Noctua NH-D15
> Thermal Grizzly Kryonaut
> G.Skill TridentZ RGB 3600C16
> ASUS RTX 2080 Ti Strix OC
> *1000 us$*


Since he’ german, I think this LITTLE detail has been unfairly forgotten


----------



## AlphaC

ScomComputers said:


> Another review.....ROG Z390-F GAMING:
> 8xSiC639
> https://www.unikoshardware.com/2018...-96JjwvxzNYevWt7QQ6zh1xWdpiA4Z89hpmfiuU6RT7Sw
> I dont understands....Asia SiC639,Eu NCP302045.
> Now what is this?
> But it's about the same, +-5A Not the big difference.
> True?


You have to take into account the feature-set and validation on the Maximus boards. There's more hardware on the Maximus boards as well as a heatpiped heatsink on the Hero + Code.

For what I can tell SiC639 is slightly better.



DVH2015 said:


> Hi guys, do you think a Asrock Z370 Prof. Fat. that I currently have can handle 9900k @*5GHZ* all cores?


If the BIOs is still buggy with i9s then no. Some people including Anandtech were finding that it pumps 1.5V into their CPU which means it had a lot more power draw than normal.

If you have a normal power draw with a non-AVX load (or you use an AVX offset) because there's 10 discrete drivers and a powerblock per phase I would think that you can hit 5GHz.

---------------------

Asrock Z390 Taichi overclocking












~85°C while pushing 267W package power on custom loop without direct air


----------



## porksmuggler

Robostyle said:


> Since he’ german, I think this LITTLE detail has been unfairly forgotten


It's a solid beginners guide to overclocking to 5GHz, on a board that isn't for beginners. Should have been on the XI Hero, so we could see how the VRM topo used on all the lower Maximus boards would handle 160A loaded when he went to 5.1.

Big difference between 5x2 60A integrated FETs on the Extreme, and the 4x2 50A FETs on the lower boards.


----------



## Nizzen

Got my 9900k in Norway 

Asus z390 Gene EK water


----------



## Brafall

AlphaC said:


> If the BIOs is still buggy with i9s then no. Some people including Anandtech were finding that it pumps 1.5V into their CPU which means it had a lot more power draw than normal.


Has AsRock acknowledged this or other any BIOS issue? I'm worried my Z390 Taichi might have the same problem once I get the 9900k.




AlphaC said:


> Asrock Z390 Taichi overclocking
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aP6JaK5LeF0
> 
> View attachment 227698
> 
> ~85°C while pushing 267W package power on custom loop without direct air


Is that out of the ordinary? The temps seem high but so is the W being pushed through.


----------



## porksmuggler

Nizzen said:


> Got my 9900k in Norway
> 
> Asus z390 Gene EK water


Now that's more like it, mind showing the VRM temps and CPU wattage?


----------



## AlphaC

Brafall said:


> Has AsRock acknowledged this or other any BIOS issue? I'm worried my Z390 Taichi might have the same problem once I get the 9900k.
> 
> Is that out of the ordinary? The temps seem high but so is the W being pushed through.


It's about on par with the Godlike / Z390 Aorus boards' result from Playwares with an AIO in Prime95 AVX.

It's not normal for someone to run it without airflow at all. I'm just putting that since there's a reason why I put the Taichi in the green zone and in practice this shows that 260W is not an issue for anyone running it in a case with fans in it.

The wattage is normal for Prime95 but as the Maximus XI Extreme video showed, you're more likely to be in the sub 200W range with non stress, non-AVX.

z370 Taichi had a Microcode update in BIOS 3.20 dated 2018/9/27 although I'm not sure if that's the one that is fixing the supposed issue raised by Anandtech or not.

Per z390 Taichi BIOs updates (https://www.asrock.com/mb/Intel/Z390 Taichi/index.asp#BIOS):
Version 1.38 dated 2018/10/23 lists Improve system performance and power consumption


----------



## GAN77

AlphaC said:


> z370 Taichi had a Microcode update in BIOS 3.20 dated 2018/9/27 although I'm not sure if that's the one that is fixing the supposed issue raised by Anandtech or not.



Maybe together with Management Engine?


----------



## br0da

elmor said:


> Extended 8-phase = 4x PWM signals + doubler IC in interleaving mode
> Twin 8-phase = 4x PWM signals each to two power stages
> 
> Load step from 45A to 193A. What you see is the transient response, ie the resulting output voltage with load changes. It's not that the VRM has less droop, it's that the VRM is faster at adapting to the new load scenario resulting in less undershoot.
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Twin 16-phase (8 PWM signals, each connected to two power stages).



Hi elmor,
since I'd guess you've used a IR controller: Was the ATA feature enabled in any of those two tests?


----------



## Robbært

> ~85°C while pushing 267W package power on custom loop without direct air





Brafall said:


> Is that out of the ordinary? The temps seem high but so is the W being pushed through.


85C for any other board is good numbers.
Asrock Z390 Taichi and Phantom Gaming 9 is only boards using CSD87350Q5D and they have 85C Tjmax,
while or other boards have parts with 135C(150C) Tjmax.
It also worth to note 87350 at 85C can supply 20A max (it not 100% effective too?).
There 10 of them, it 200A total and 5.0GHz 9900K eat 193-196A.
So Taichi at 85C already throttling (or gonna break soon, have to see if it throttle).
Active VRM cooling is a must in this case.


----------



## porksmuggler

Robbært said:


> 85C for any other board is good numbers.
> Asrock Z390 Taichi and Phantom Gaming 9 is only boards using CSD87350Q5D and they have 85C Tjmax,
> while or other boards have parts with 135C(150C) Tjmax.
> It also worth to note 87350 at 85C can supply 20A max (it not 100% effective too?).
> There 10 of them, it 200A total and 5.0GHz 9900K eat 193-196A.
> So Taichi at 85C already throttling (or gonna break soon, have to see if it throttle).
> Active VRM cooling is a must in this case.


This appears incorrect. The CSD87350 used is absolute 150C max and recommended max 125C. This TI NexFET is also 25A at 90% efficiency. They're also up to 40A. Also 12 on the Z390 Phantom Gaming 9, not 10.

Correction: Z390 Phantom Gaming 9 is 10 phase after all, same as Taichi (Ultimate).


----------



## Robbært

porksmuggler said:


> This appears incorrect. The CSD87350 used is absolute 150C max and recommended max 125C. This TI NexFET is also 25A at 90% efficiency. They're also up to 40A. Also 12 on the Z390 Phantom Gaming 9, not 10.


You right. They 150C normal MOSFETs. I was looking at








Somehow I memorized this and assumed it bad part.
My bad.
12 because 2 for iGPU, it only 10 for CPU part.
And 40A... till 85C or till 30C it 40A


----------



## porksmuggler

Robbært said:


> You right. They 150C normal MOSFETs. I was looking at
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Somehow I memorized this and assumed it bad part.
> My bad.
> 12 because 2 for iGPU, it only 10 for CPU part.
> And 40A... till 85C or till 30C it 40A


No, not a bad part. Also, not 12 because 2 for iGPU. On the Z390 Phantom Gaming 9, the IR35201 is working as 6+2, not 5+2. So 6 IR3598 doublers, 12 CSD87350 NexFETs for the CPU. 2 additional SM7341EH FETs for the iGPU.

Actually, one of the top boards, VRM-wise, one of only a few I would pick for OC above 5.2, given what testing data is available so far.

Correction: Z390 Phantom Gaming 9 is 10 phase after all, same as Taichi (Ultimate).


----------



## Robbært

porksmuggler said:


> No, not a bad part. Also, not 12 because 2 for iGPU. On the Z390 Phantom Gaming 9, the IR35201 is working as 6+2, not 5+2. So 6 IR3598 doublers, 12 CSD87350 NexFETs for the CPU. 2 additional SM7341EH FETs for the iGPU.
> 
> Actually, one of the top boards, VRM-wise, one of only a few I would pick for OC above 5.2, given what testing data is available so far.


nvm 3598 can drive it and IR35201 has diode emulation


----------



## Sin0822

porksmuggler said:


> No, not a bad part. Also, not 12 because 2 for iGPU. On the Z390 Phantom Gaming 9, the IR35201 is working as 6+2, not 5+2. So 6 IR3598 doublers, 12 CSD87350 NexFETs for the CPU. 2 additional SM7341EH FETs for the iGPU.
> 
> Actually, one of the top boards, VRM-wise, one of only a few I would pick for OC above 5.2, given what testing data is available so far.


Actually, the iGPU is powered by the NexFETs, what you thought powers the iGPU actually powers the VCCSA and VCCIO. The sixth IR3598 is most likely in the alternative dual driver mode for the IR3598 with two PWM inputs from the main PWM.


----------



## porksmuggler

Sin0822 said:


> Actually, the iGPU is powered by the NexFETs, what you thought powers the iGPU actually powers the VCCSA and VCCIO. The sixth IR3598 is most likely in the alternative dual driver mode for the IR3598 with two PWM inputs from the main PWM.


Not my thought, R1 link here https://www.hardwareluxx.de/community/f12/lga-1151-mainboard-vrm-liste-1175784.html#z370


----------



## sdch

Sin0822 said:


> Actually, the iGPU is powered by the NexFETs, what you thought powers the iGPU actually powers the VCCSA and VCCIO. The sixth IR3598 is most likely in the alternative dual driver mode for the IR3598 with two PWM inputs from the main PWM.


Do you still plan on reviewing the ITX boards? Specifiallly the AsRock and Asus models. Always like seeing your reviews.


----------



## Sin0822

sdch said:


> Do you still plan on reviewing the ITX boards? Specifically the AsRock and Asus models. Always like seeing your reviews.


Yea, I did the first half of the nice ASRock ITX board and the second is on the way. I haven't got anything from ASUS yet, and I always get at least one board and it's typically ITX. I did talk to my rep and he said he would send a Formula if he had an extra, but there was some personnel switch around at that time, so that might have effected it. Oddly enough I have had a few email requests to review a few of their boards, so if I don't get anything I will just go buy whatever board they want most in demand, if that's ITX then it could be ITX lol, but so far most people have been asking for ATX Prime boards. I have had like 10 motherboards from before release and I like to prioritize them by when they come in, but if i get an ASUS board I will move it up in the queue just so I have one board review from every vendor. I have more boards on the way too, hopefully DHL doesn't pretend deliver my boards, not only does it say the board is delivered, but there is no signature under proof of delivery. Not only that, I was in the office at the time of "delivery" (although I can't see the front), there is nowhere for the guy to leave it, and there are obvious security cameras in the hallway of the building and I have a security camera pointed straight at the front glass doors he would have had to be at. 



porksmuggler said:


> Not my thought, R1 link here https://www.hardwareluxx.de/community/f12/lga-1151-mainboard-vrm-liste-1175784.html#z370


Yea I know, they need to fix it. It's clearly labeled on the PCB too.


----------



## porksmuggler

Sin0822 said:


> Yea, I did the first half of the nice ASRock ITX board and the second is on the way. I haven't got anything from ASUS yet, and I always get at least one board and it's typically ITX. I did talk to my rep and he said he would send a Formula if he had an extra, but there was some personnel switch around at that time, so that might have effected it. Oddly enough I have had a few email requests to review a few of their boards, so if I don't get anything I will just go buy whatever board they want most in demand, if that's ITX then it could be ITX lol, but so far most people have been asking for ATX Prime boards. I have had like 10 motherboards from before release and I like to prioritize them by when they come in, but if i get an ASUS board I will move it up in the queue just so I have one board review from every vendor. I have more boards on the way too, hopefully DHL doesn't pretend deliver my boards, not only does it say the board is delivered, but there is no signature under proof of delivery. Not only that, I was in the office at the time of "delivery" (although I can't see the front), there is nowhere for the guy to leave it, and there are obvious security cameras in the hallway of the building and I have a security camera pointed straight at the front glass doors he would have had to be at.
> 
> 
> 
> Yea I know, they need to fix it. It's clearly labeled on the PCB too.


Again no, it is correct on the link. Hint, do you see the uP1674P?


----------



## Sin0822

porksmuggler said:


> Again no, it is correct on the link. Hint, do you see the uP1674P?


That uP PWM controller is for the memory. Okay, so here are some things to consider:
#1. ASRock labels their VRMs quite well (no one else really does), check out what I have underlined in different colors, the iGPU ones are clearly labeled GT (for VCCGT), while the individual VCCIO and VCCSA are labaled SA and IO, and the VCore are VC. 
#2. The one IR3598 under the iGPU NexFETs has pin #8 connected while none of the others do, this is perhaps the most clear evidence other than the labeling other than measuring physically. What is Pin 8? It's the pin for the second optional PWM signal from the IR35201, making the doubler not a doubler, but rather a dual driver. So the PWM is in a 5+2 phase configuration. 
#3. That uPI controller you mentioned is clearly the memory VRM's PWM controller. 

Those two non-NexFET dual N-channels had two RT8120 near them, and that freaked me out b/c I initially thought what hardwareluxx has stated, but upon closer physical examination it turns out those are VCCSA and VCCIO phases, and next to them are their single phase PWM/driver chips, so not for the iGPU. I made the original VRM List, but it was extremely hard to ensure information is 100% correct, it took me many months to compile it, and in the end it makes more sense to make a list when you have the motherboard in hand to run tests or put it under a thermal camera (which also confirms what I have said here). I am glad you guys have crowd-sourced it, but there is always the possibility mistakes will be ma

Edit: forgot one pic.

Edit again: I wanted to add that ASRock has designed the Taichi very well, this change doesn't warrant any change in the motherboards ranking because they used very good parts, and they have designed the VRM to not restrict CPU power at stock with AVX full 4.7Ghz Turbo. I tested the board and it's VRM performed very well. I think Intel didn't really give the motherboard vendors guidance on whether or not to limit the CPu power, and I think they did it to combat what happened at Ryzen 2000 launch, when they introduced PBOD which lifts power restrictions, and then AMD basically let board vendors decide if it was on or off by default (obviously they wanted it on but couldn't say it since it would void warranty). So in this case it looks like Intel let the board vendor choose what power limits to set on their CPUs or just turned a blind eye (or who knows maybe they told board vendors to by ready for an almost 200A AVX load at 4.7GHz all core), it looks like on some boards you get current restrictions and on others you don't.


----------



## porksmuggler

Sin0822 said:


> That uP PWM controller is for the memory.


I literally got it right before you posted that. I actually wasn't talking about the separate image for the uP1674P PWM memory controller, but regardless, what I was looking at wasn't a uP1674P anyway. I'm looking at postage stamp size pics and well, I'm old.

That, and I was second guessing it all, because well, you're who you are and all.


----------



## Sin0822

porksmuggler said:


> I literally got it right before you posted that. I actually wasn't talking about the separate image for the uP1674P PWM memory controller, but regardless, what I was looking at wasn't a uP1674P anyway. I'm looking at postage stamp size pics and well, I'm old.
> 
> That, and I was second guessing it all, because well, you're who you are and all.


No worries, and hey, I like ASUS, ASRock, Biostar, GBT, MSI, and Supermicro, I have nothing against any of them lol, I work a lot with ASRock actually. Was just talking to Nick Shih a few mins ago, but not about this lol


----------



## porksmuggler

Sin0822 said:


> No worries, and hey, I like ASUS, ASRock, Biostar, GBT, MSI, and Supermicro, I have nothing against any of them lol, I work a lot with ASRock actually. Was just talking to Nick Shih a few mins ago, but not about this lol


With the hundreds I've built now, the list of the brands I like usually only goes down as they go out of business sadly. Not that I haven't hit a few or dozen duds along the way, but its rarely brand specific.


----------



## encrypted11

Sin0822 said:


> No worries, and hey, I like ASUS, ASRock, Biostar, GBT, MSI, and Supermicro, I have nothing against any of them lol, I work a lot with ASRock actually. Was just talking to Nick Shih a few mins ago, but not about this lol


Did you ask Nick for a Z390 MOCF or at least a kickstarter for that?

Maybe ISL69138 in 5x2+2 with ISL99227B Smart Powerstages?


----------



## Sin0822

encrypted11 said:


> Did you ask Nick for a Z390 MOCF or at least a kickstarter for that?
> 
> Maybe ISL69138 in 5x2+2 with ISL99227B Smart Powerstages?


Lol nah not yet, but I pointed him at this thread at the comment about the "85C" TjMax on the NexFETs they use, hahaha. It's safe to say every vendor is closely watching this thread, it's a marketing battleground. It makes sense, VRMs are a technical subject, so the opinions formed here spread to other places with sshorter threads like Reddit. It goes from most technical to least, an example OCN (opinion formed)>reddit r/hardware (opinion spread)> reddit r/hardware (second user opinion formed based on comment from original OCNer)> reddit r/buildapc (second user spreads that opinion to a much larger subset of PC users who know nothing about VRMs). Vendors know this.


----------



## porksmuggler

Sin0822 said:


> Lol nah not yet, but I pointed him at this thread at the comment about the "85C" TjMax on the NexFETs they use, hahaha.


I got hotter than the NexFETs when I saw the comment, and then defended them to the point I fell on my own sword.


----------



## Sin0822

porksmuggler said:


> I got hotter than the NexFETs when I saw the comment, and then defended them to the point I fell on my own sword.


I looked up the datasheet b/c I thought that can't be true. I found it and saw tjmax at 150C, and then I went through the charts and figured he got that number b/c they only measured up to 85C ambient. It was an honest mistake on his part.


----------



## asdkj1740

Sin0822 said:


> No worries, and hey, I like ASUS, ASRock, Biostar, GBT, MSI, and Supermicro, I have nothing against any of them lol, I work a lot with ASRock actually. Was just talking to Nick Shih a few mins ago, but not about this lol


would you mind helping me to ask nickshih about why asrock on z390 changes to use doublers on taichi over the parallel design on z370. thanks.

asus and asrock actually changed opposite on z390 over z370. interesting. 
gigabytes gone mad on vrm doubling everything.
asus arock gigabyte all of them have independent drivers for each set of mosfets, but msi is still using one driver to drive two sets of mosfets.
msi is the only manufacturer on big4 using the same old vrm design. was asking msi about that but sadly the source said they are not going to answer this publicly.


----------



## asdkj1740

Sin0822 said:


> Lol nah not yet, but I pointed him at this thread at the comment about the "85C" TjMax on the NexFETs they use, hahaha. It's safe to say every vendor is closely watching this thread, it's a marketing battleground. It makes sense, VRMs are a technical subject, so the opinions formed here spread to other places with sshorter threads like Reddit. It goes from most technical to least, an example OCN (opinion formed)>reddit r/hardware (opinion spread)> reddit r/hardware (second user opinion formed based on comment from original OCNer)> reddit r/buildapc (second user spreads that opinion to a much larger subset of PC users who know nothing about VRMs). Vendors know this.


vendors wont know/care this until someone finally reach the r&d team. without gbt mattewh reaching the gigabyte r&d team in person we may still suffer from problems on gigabyte z370s. 
r&d team are mainly from taiwan and sadly on chinses site/forum there are no such concentration like here to vrm discussion.


----------



## Sin0822

asdkj1740 said:


> would you mind helping me to ask nickshih about why asrock on z390 changes to use doublers on taichi over the parallel design on z370. thanks.
> 
> asus and asrock actually changed opposite on z390 over z370. interesting.
> gigabytes gone mad on vrm doubling everything.
> asus arock gigabyte all of them have independent drivers for each set of mosfets, but msi is still using one driver to drive two sets of mosfets.
> msi is the only manufacturer on big4 using the same old vrm design. was asking msi about that but sadly the source said they are not going to answer this publicly.


What might be beneficial for Vendor A's design might not be beneficial for Vendor B's design. There are trade offs, transient response is only one aspect of VRM performance. The Z390 Taichi VRM is superior to their Z370 Taichi, especially when it comes to handling the power hungry chips. Right now it's the first time most of the vendors RD teams have seen ASUS's post, ASUS posted it at midnight my time on a Thursday, which means it was Friday at noon in TW. It's more of a marketing person's issue and it wouldn't make it down the pipeline to their RD departments that quickly.


----------



## porksmuggler

Here's the one I'm asking myself as of this go round. The rebranded PWM controllers Asus uses, are they ISL958xx chips?

Edit: I mean the ASP1400-1401 chips specifically, already assumed the ASP1405I are IR35201s.


----------



## asdkj1740

Sin0822 said:


> What might be beneficial for Vendor A's design might not be beneficial for Vendor B's design. There are trade offs, transient response is only one aspect of VRM performance. The Z390 Taichi VRM is superior to their Z370 Taichi, especially when it comes to handling the power hungry chips. Right now it's the first time most of the vendors RD teams have seen ASUS's post, ASUS posted it at midnight my time on a Thursday, which means it was Friday at noon in TW. It's more of a marketing person's issue and it wouldn't make it down the pipeline to their RD departments that quickly.



the reason you said z390 taichi is superior than z370 taichi is ir3598 doublers being used on z390 ?
the heatsink is clearly better on z390 taichi.

edited: i saw your z390 taichi preview saying z390 taichi is doubling up from 5 to 10 phases.
z390 taichi has csd83750. so the dual n channel mosfets need driver to work with.
and there are only 6 ir3598 on the back pcb, no little ic near mosfets on the front pcb.
i didnt know ir3598 can simultaneously take 2 pwm signals driving 2 mosfets and doubling the pwm signal at the same time? 
if ir3598 is used as doubler then can ir3598 still drives 2 mosfets independently?
ah i forgot something sorry.


----------



## Sin0822

porksmuggler said:


> Here's the one I'm asking myself as of this go round. The rebranded PWM controllers Asus uses, are they ISL958xx chips?
> 
> Edit: I mean the ASP1400-1401 chips specifically, already assumed the ASP1405I are IR35201s.


I always felt those other PWMs were Richtek based on the drivers used, but that's just conjecture. 



asdkj1740 said:


> the reason you said z390 taichi is superior than z370 taichi is ir3598 doublers being used on z390 ?
> the heatsink is clearly better on z390 taichi.
> 
> edited: i saw your z390 taichi preview saying z390 taichi is doubling up from 5 to 10 phases.
> z390 taichi has csd83750. so the dual n channel mosfets need driver to work with.
> and there are only 6 ir3598 on the back pcb, no little ic near mosfets on the front pcb.
> i didnt know ir3598 can simultaneously take 2 pwm signals driving 2 mosfets and doubling the pwm signal at the same time?
> if ir3598 is used as doubler then can ir3598 still drives 2 mosfets independently?
> ah i forgot something sorry.


Nah not b/c of the doublers bur rather because of the better MOSFETs and switch to IR's digital PWM.


----------



## GBT-MatthewH

So ya it's the weekend and just catching up on the thread. Re: transient response time on parallel Vs interleaving - of course the transient response time is increased, that follows neccaserily. By adding an ic there will always be some added delay. We increase the switching frequency to account for this, but the delay still has to be nonzero. Is the assertion really that a lower transient response outweighs the benefits of interleaving? If so why do all the top end xoc/ln2 boards feature (now and previously) use doublers - including all the top brands.

Edit: here's what our xtreme (16 phase doubled) can do with no heatsinks


----------



## asdkj1740

Sin0822 said:


> I always felt those other PWMs were Richtek based on the drivers used, but that's just conjecture.
> 
> 
> Nah not b/c of the doublers bur rather because of the better MOSFETs and switch to IR's digital PWM.


oic, thanks for your clarification.
but i double lots of ppl would think of the doubler as a huge improvement over the last generation design, including me lol.
how to stop the controversy between doubling and parallel, lol.


----------



## GBT-MatthewH

asdkj1740 said:


> oic, thanks for your clarification.
> but i double lots of ppl would think of the doubler as a huge improvement over the last generation design, including me lol.
> how to stop the controversy between doubling and parallel, lol.


Simple, run a doubled board and compare to a parallel board


----------



## tostitobandito

GBT-MatthewH said:


> So ya it's the weekend and just catching up on the thread. Re: transient response time on parallel Vs interleaving - of course the transient response time is increased, that follows neccaserily. By adding an ic there will always be some added delay. We increase the switching frequency to account for this, but the delay still has to be nonzero. Is the assertion really that a lower transient response outweighs the benefits of interleaving? If so why do all the top end xoc/ln2 boards feature (now and previously) use doublers - including all the top brands.



Sounds like the forthcoming Maximus XI Apex is going to be parallel as well; no doublers just 8 phases with 16 stages (according to elmor). Since that's definitely an XOC/LN2 board, I'm assuming Asus has found a way to make their new parallel configuration more effective than the doubled configurations they've used in the past. They're definitely committing to it across the entire top of their product line.


----------



## GBT-MatthewH

tostitobandito said:


> Sounds like the forthcoming Maximus XI Apex is going to be parallel as well; no doublers just 8 phases with 16 stages (according to elmor). Since that's definitely an XOC/LN2 board, I'm assuming Asus has found a way to make their new parallel configuration more effective than the doubled configurations they've used in the past. They're definitely committing to it across the entire top of their product line.


 super confident our design is much cooler and performs better.


----------



## porksmuggler

GBT-MatthewH said:


> Is the assertion really that a lower transient response outweighs the benefits of interleaving? If so why do all the top end xoc/ln2 boards feature (now and previously) use doublers - including all the top brands.


Short answer from me, no, it does not outweigh the benefits of interleave mode doublers, given the high current draw of the 9900K, and the not so controversial advantage of doublers handling those temperatures more effectively, especially on more phases.

Long answer, lets look at the bet. Here's Intel, stuck on 14nm for whatever reason we're to believe, record profits, but AMD with the buzz. We know they're throwing a hail mary, Prescott 2.0 aka 9900K. 

Do you, as a vendor, prepare for that power draw we on this forum will try to kill them with across your whole enthusiast line? Knowing Intel will have supply issues for that specific CPU? and do you do that at a decent price, and take a smaller margin?

Or, do you as a vendor, knowing the vast bulk of the availability and sales will be 9700K and down, and you've totally got all of those covered with a 4 phase parallel VRM, just prepare the flag ship / halo boards to handle the power draw of the 9900K.

At this point, I see more of the Aorus line selling to those wanting north of 5.1GHz on the 9900K, obviously due to the VRMs higher current capability, and the better price point for those models.


I guess we'll see, forum members like tostitobandito have already purchased the Asus XI Hero, I think, and asdkj1740, if I'm recalling the right forum member, wasn't thrilled with a previous Z370 Aorus Ultra Gaming purchase.


----------



## eric98k

Sin0822 said:


> No worries, and hey, I like ASUS, ASRock, Biostar, GBT, MSI, and Supermicro, I have nothing against any of them lol, I work a lot with ASRock actually. Was just talking to Nick Shih a few mins ago, but not about this lol


So u don't like EVGA i would assume  Pls review more EVGA & Supermicro boards. I can't find any datasheet about the fets they use. And the OC capabilities. Do u think EVGA Z370 Micro can handle 9900K?


----------



## Sin0822

eric98k said:


> So u don't like EVGA i would assume  Pls review more EVGA & Supermicro boards. I can't find any datasheet about the fets they use. And the OC capabilities. Do u think EVGA Z370 Micro can handle 9900K?


hahaha, I actually really like EVGA, especially from a hardware design standpoint, totally forgot about them. That X299 Dark might be one of my favorite motherboards. When I got it, I messaged Vince to tell him that's the most badass motherboard for X299, I think I said its like a blunt object I can hit people with (its the most heavy and sturdy X299 board I had ever handled), and he said that was the best description he had heard yet lol But seriously its super over engineered which is awesome, and even though their UEFI is different, Tin's OC guide really helps a ton. Not gonna comment on any Z370 motherboard supporting a 9900K without testing the combo out first, but I will say Z370 boards aren't designed to handle the type of load a 9900K puts on them, so they would have to be over engineered.


----------



## br0da

GBT-MatthewH said:


> Re: transient response time on parallel Vs interleaving - of course the transient response time is increased, that follows neccaserily. By adding an ic there will always be some added delay. We increase the switching frequency to account for this, but the delay still has to be nonzero. Is the assertion really that a lower transient response outweighs the benefits of interleaving? If so why do all the top end xoc/ln2 boards feature (now and previously) use doublers - including all the top brands.


Yeah of course it's marketing talking like that about parallel vs. interleaved phases but isn't that what every manufacturer is aiming for at least a little if he takes part in this thread?


----------



## Jrw8FJBbLPkkJpB

eric98k said:


> So u don't like EVGA i would assume  Pls review more EVGA & Supermicro boards. I can't find any datasheet about the fets they use. And the OC capabilities. Do u think EVGA Z370 Micro can handle 9900K?


Don't EVGA boards still have vdroop issues? I was looking into buying one and their forums are still full of people asking when it's going to be fixed.


----------



## SpeedyIV

elmor said:


> I think the extended design was temporarily used because of supply issues, if those got solved I'd assume they went back to the previous design. I don't think the PCB Revision would indicate anything about which VRM configuration is on there.





g7713019 said:


> Can you clarify which version of Maximus X Hero is inferior?(Original or rev 1.01?)
> 
> If I recall, the original is this: http://112.172.165.208/data/editor/1710/thumb-Bimg_20171012145258_gxbdqovi.jpg
> 
> And the revision 1.01 looks like this: https://www.overclock.net/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=219246&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1537441897





porksmuggler said:


> The original ROG Maximus X Hero / (WiFi) use an ASP1400BT PWM controller and a parallel 4 x 2 BSG0812ND FET arrangment. Likely most of the ROG Maximus X Hero / (WiFi) Rev.1.01 boards have that same VRM. Possibly due to a supply shortage, there are these boards with the ASP1405I PWM controller, IR3599 doublers and ZF906 FETs, like used in the ROG Maximus X Formula and Code.





Feklar said:


> I have the Hero X non-WIFI and it does report vrm temps. I have a few friends that have the Hero X non-wifi and some with the Hero X wifi. Those with the Hero X have a vrm temp reporting and those with the Hero X wifi do not have vrm temp reporting. Perhaps a coincidence, perhaps not.


I don't know which revision of the Max X Hero ( or wifi) is inferior, since Elmor stated that he does not "think the PCB Revision would indicate anything about which VRM configuration is on there." So maybe the rev1.01 has nothing to do with the apparent fact that there are at least 2 different VRM designs floating around on the Max X Hero boards. Maybe the rev1.01 boards have some other difference. What I do know that is my Max X Hero wifi absolutely does NOT report a VRM temp, or have any option or setting for it in the Bios. No VRM Temp reported in HWINFO64 or SIV. Some other do get a VRM temp reported - maybe most. It's hard to tell because more people post with a problem than without. The 8 or so reviews I read with BIOS screen shots did not show it, and it was never mentioned as being present or not.

So if I have this right, they designed the board with VRM design A. Mid production, they had a component sourcing issue, so they started using VRM design B, then when back to VRM design A when the parts shortage was over. Whether the rev number (1.01) directly relates to that is unknown. From what porksmuggler says, VRM B was actually the better design, already used on the Max X Formula and Code. In the pics g7713019 provided links to, you can see additional components (doublers?) around the VRM area that are absent on the original version. It looks like the solder pad and traces are there but unused. Maybe the board trace work is done so they can populate it with either VRM design. So they switched to the better. more expensive solution when they had to, and then went back to the cheaper design when they could. Maybe they just never stopped printing "rev1.01" on the boards after that.

What I don't get is why one version reports a VRM temp and the other does not. This seems like a pretty basic function, and they used to advertise it by having a thermometer over the VRM on the web page for the board. So it seems like they intended to provide a VRM Temp. So does the inferior (standard for Max X Hero) VRM design not report a VRM temp and the better design that was temporarily used does? And the thermometer over the VRM on the web site was a marketing error? I am happy with my Max X Hero board. It overclocks my 8700K just fine and I have never had a thermal issue with the VRMs (that I am aware of). I am guessing on VRM temps with a temp probe and would just like to know why there is no VRM temp reported on my Max X Hero wifi, and I would like an answer from Asus.

As for the practice of switching components mid production, I guess this sort of thing happens now and then, but switching out critical components (like the VRM section), and taking away a basic system monitoring feature - that bugs me. Still hoping that Elmor or someone in the know at Asus will step up and address this issue.


----------



## SpeedyIV

Sin0822 said:


> hahaha, I actually really like EVGA, especially from a hardware design standpoint, totally forgot about them. That X299 Dark might be one of my favorite motherboards. When I got it, I messaged Vince to tell him that's the most badass motherboard for X299, I think I said its like a blunt object I can hit people with (its the most heavy and sturdy X299 board I had ever handled), and he said that was the best description he had heard yet lol But seriously its super over engineered which is awesome, and even though their UEFI is different, Tin's OC guide really helps a ton. Not gonna comment on any Z370 motherboard supporting a 9900K without testing the combo out first, but I will say Z370 boards aren't designed to handle the type of load a 9900K puts on them, so they would have to be over engineered.


I saw a Buildzoid video wherein he indicated that he has been giving a lot of input into the VRM design for the EVGA Z390 MOBO - I guess the Z390-FTW which seems to be the only Z390 they have, at least now. That guy seems to know his stuff. Their specs says its an 11 Phase Digital VRM. Not sure what that actually means. I bought an EVGA board for my X58 rig in 2010 and it is still running today. I have never even changed the TIM under the Corsair pump (almost afraid to now).


----------



## AlphaC

_Recommended_ maximum T_J is listed at 125°C

http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/csd87350q5d.pdf

85°C at the PCB is probably around 95°C at junction

Safe operating area (SOA) is up to ~ 20A each even with no airflow. 85°C you see on the graphs is for ambient temperature.

-------------------
another confirmation of Taichi's use of TI NexFETs:
https://post.smzdm.com/p/akmr6q7r/







-------------------

https://www.io-tech.fi/artikkelit/testissa-intel-core-i9-9900k-core-i7-9700k/

i9-9900k 204W power consumption Prime95 , Package TDP 214-253W


-------------------


Z390 STRIX ITX ~62°C in AIDA64 , 9700K @ 5GHz , 1.29V

https://ru.gecid.com/mboard/asus_rog_strix_z390-i_gaming/?s=all

-------------------

Power phase shedding at idle seems to be better on Aorus Master on overclocked CPUs:







https://adrenaline.uol.com.br/2018/10/28/56949/analise-placa-mae-msi-meg-z390-ace/


Z390-P is listed here with i9-9900k @ 5GHz , with Be Quiet 280 AIO (fully copper) with apparently no direct airflow, no word on the load besides OCCT AVX off @ 1.35V







https://www.purepc.pl/plyty_glowne/..._wifi_test_wypasionej_plyty_glownej?page=0,17



> Motherboard warming has been performed by OCCT program (CPU Linpack; 64bit ON, AVX OFF; Logical Cores ON, 50% RAM) for 5 minutes.


Z390-P likely still a bad choice unless you are going for i5-9600K (why even bother waiting for that CPU?) since you lose ASUS auto OC features and it definitely has a worse VRM than say a budget/ midrange MSI Tomahawk or any Gigabyte z390 board 

-----------------

As far as the ROG Hero goes, I feel like the pitchforks are coming out again. If you don't like it don't necessarily need to buy it. There's definitely an argument for it and against it , that much we have established.

The Z390-F variant with SiC639 should be tested versus the Hero to see the impact of the heatpiped heatsink and extra output filtering capacitors that are Nichicon 10K hour rated on the ROG Hero vs 5K ones likely from Apaq (Taiwan).

-------------------
@*Sin0822* good to see you again.


----------



## Shiftstealth

AlphaC said:


> _Recommended_ maximum T_J is listed at 125°C
> 
> http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/csd87350q5d.pdf
> 
> 85°C at the PCB is probably around 95°C at junction
> 
> Safe operating area (SOA) is up to ~ 20A each even with no airflow. 85°C you see on the graphs is for ambient temperature.
> 
> -------------------
> another confirmation of Taichi's use of TI NexFETs:
> https://post.smzdm.com/p/akmr6q7r/
> View attachment 227882
> 
> -------------------
> 
> https://www.io-tech.fi/artikkelit/testissa-intel-core-i9-9900k-core-i7-9700k/
> 
> i9-9900k 204W power consumption Prime95 , Package TDP 214-253W
> 
> -------------------
> 
> Power phase shedding at idle seems to be better on Aorus Master on overclocked CPUs:
> View attachment 227886
> 
> https://adrenaline.uol.com.br/2018/10/28/56949/analise-placa-mae-msi-meg-z390-ace/
> 
> 
> Z390-P is listed here with i9-9900k @ 5GHz , with Be Quiet 280 AIO (fully copper) with apparently no direct airfoil, no word on the load besides OCCT AVX off @ 1.35V
> View attachment 227890
> 
> https://www.purepc.pl/plyty_glowne/..._wifi_test_wypasionej_plyty_glownej?page=0,17
> 
> Z390-P likely still a bad choice unless you are going for i5-9600K (why even bother waiting for that CPU?) since you lose ASUS auto OC features and it definitely has a worse VRM than say a budget/ midrange MSI Tomahawk or any Gigabyte z390 board
> 
> -----------------
> 
> As far as the ROG Hero goes, I feel like the pitchforks are coming out again. If you don't like it don't necessarily need to buy it. There's definitely an argument for it and against it , that much we have established.
> 
> The Z390-F variant with SiC639 should be tested versus the Hero to see the impact of the heatpiped heatsink and extra output filtering capacitors that are Nichicon 10K hour rated on the ROG Hero vs 5K ones likely from Apaq (Taiwan).
> 
> -------------------
> @*Sin0822* good to see you again.



Make OCN bring rep back so we can rep you for informative posts.

Edit: This review makes me feel better about a stock i9 9900k on my Z370-A. It should be slightly better than a Z390-P, and obviously the Z390-P only hits 72C after a high 5 minute load, which mine will only be for gaming so it should be fine around there


----------



## Sin0822

AlphaC said:


> @*Sin0822* good to see you again.


 @AlphaC Good to see you as well! I only left b/c of the new layout and stuff, it looks like they have normalized things a bit, hopefully they will bring back rep.


----------



## Telstar

Jrw8FJBbLPkkJpB said:


> Don't EVGA boards still have vdroop issues? I was looking into buying one and their forums are still full of people asking when it's going to be fixed.


The z390 dark is supposed to have NO vdroop.


----------



## NamelessGF

porksmuggler said:


> Short answer from me, no, it does not outweigh the benefits of interleave mode doublers, given the high current draw of the 9900K, and the not so controversial advantage of doublers handling those temperatures more effectively, especially on more phases.
> 
> Long answer, lets look at the bet. Here's Intel, stuck on 14nm for whatever reason we're to believe, record profits, but AMD with the buzz. We know they're throwing a hail mary, Prescott 2.0 aka 9900K.
> 
> Do you, as a vendor, prepare for that power draw we on this forum will try to kill them with across your whole enthusiast line? Knowing Intel will have supply issues for that specific CPU? and do you do that at a decent price, and take a smaller margin?
> 
> Or, do you as a vendor, knowing the vast bulk of the availability and sales will be 9700K and down, and you've totally got all of those covered with a 4 phase parallel VRM, just prepare the flag ship / halo boards to handle the power draw of the 9900K.
> 
> At this point, I see more of the Aorus line selling to those wanting north of 5.1GHz on the 9900K, obviously due to the VRMs higher current capability, and the better price point for those models.
> 
> 
> I guess we'll see, forum members like tostitobandito have already purchased the Asus XI Hero, I think, and asdkj1740, if I'm recalling the right forum member, wasn't thrilled with a previous Z370 Aorus Ultra Gaming purchase.


Transient response time is important, but only for LN2/He XOC area, interleave is way more important for average users (if we see 9900K buyers are average users). ASUS M11H 4x2 no doubler design has one huge design flaw: the load isn't balance in each PWN signal 2 phase, load balance happens in 4 PWM signal but inside each signal 2 phase, no one know how electricity goes, maybe one is 80% and the other is 20%. That's the main reason IR3599 doubler is needed to control the interleaving to make sure load is perfectly balance in each PWM signal phase behind doubler. Without load balance, no doubler is essentially parallel design. IR doubler operate in un-sync mode which each phase behind doubler still works independently in half main PWM chip clock (but we can always use higher clock to compensate that, and the PWM highest clock is rarely used), the communication between IR35201 and IR3599 to make sure PWM chip can do interleaving and load balance on each phase behind doubler. On the other hand, Intersil PWM & Doubler operate in sync mode, so ISL69138+ISL6617 means every 2 phase work independently, but ISL6617 clearly specify it has load balance function otherwise it is useless and become parallel design. Not sure which one is better, but IR is the first company to go digital pwm and i'm pretty sure they already experimented both un-sync and sync mode, and decide to go more expensive/complicated and maybe better un-sync mode. i heard Intersil also is experimenting un-sync mode in new product.

From what i see it, M11H power design is more like cost decision instead of design decision, Z390 chipset net price is $3~$5 higher than Z370 depends on different Intel incentive program, so maybe asus want to control the cost is almost the same as similar segment between Z370 and Z390. They beef up DrMOS spec and remove doubler to save some cost (each doubler cost ~$0.3) to maintain same PWM design cost. However I'm surprise they ignore load balance issue in parallel design, especially IR has special debug tool/software to read each DrMOS temperature and loading, maybe that tool can't work on any DrMOS except IR own PowIRstage.

I'm sure M11H can handle 9900K default clock just fine based on their heatsink design, but after 5GHz and torture loading test, I'm pretty sure M11H will go overheating because 9900K overclocking draw massive power and load balance between PWM phases is critical. I'm also surprised no one post any result of M11H + 9900K 5GHz yet, guess on one can buy 9900K anywhere for now....


----------



## porksmuggler

NamelessGF said:


> Transient response time is important, but only for LN2/He XOC area, interleave is way more important for average users (if we see 9900K buyers are average users). ASUS M11H 4x2 no doubler design has one huge design flaw: the load isn't balance in each PWN signal 2 phase, load balance happens in 4 PWM signal but inside each signal 2 phase, no one know how electricity goes, maybe one is 80% and the other is 20%. That's the main reason IR3599 doubler is needed to control the interleaving to make sure load is perfectly balance in each PWM signal phase behind doubler. Without load balance, no doubler is essentially parallel design. IR doubler operate in un-sync mode which each phase behind doubler still works independently in half main PWM chip clock (but we can always use higher clock to compensate that, and the PWM highest clock is rarely used), the communication between IR35201 and IR3599 to make sure PWM chip can do interleaving and load balance on each phase behind doubler. On the other hand, Intersil PWM & Doubler operate in sync mode, so ISL69138+ISL6617 means every 2 phase work independently, but ISL6617 clearly specify it has load balance function otherwise it is useless and become parallel design. Not sure which one is better, but IR is the first company to go digital pwm and i'm pretty sure they already experimented both un-sync and sync mode, and decide to go more expensive/complicated and maybe better un-sync mode. i heard Intersil also is experimenting un-sync mode in new product.
> 
> From what i see it, M11H power design is more like cost decision instead of design decision, Z390 chipset net price is $3~$5 higher than Z370 depends on different Intel incentive program, so maybe asus want to control the cost is almost the same as similar segment between Z370 and Z390. They beef up DrMOS spec and remove doubler to save some cost (each doubler cost ~$0.3) to maintain same PWM design cost. However I'm surprise they ignore load balance issue in parallel design, especially IR has special debug tool/software to read each DrMOS temperature and loading, maybe that tool can't work on any DrMOS except IR own PowIRstage.
> 
> I'm sure M11H can handle 9900K default clock just fine based on their heatsink design, but after 5GHz and torture loading test, I'm pretty sure M11H will go overheating because 9900K overclocking draw massive power and load balance between PWM phases is critical. I'm also surprised no one post any result of M11H + 9900K 5GHz yet, guess on one can buy 9900K anywhere for now....


Agreed on all points, cannot stress load balance, duty-cycle, and thermal distribution across the voltage regulation circuit enough. Too many points of gaining thermal impedance with such high current draw north of 5GHz to ignore. I could discuss sync / asynch modes further, but regardless preference is for the IR to ISL. I'm sure most too will handle the 9900K at stock, most enthusiast at 5GHz, but only few beyond 5.1/5.2 w/ AVX. Look forward to more user testing once availability is better. Z390 w/ 9900K is good case study for non-HEDT platform extremes for general consumer Air or AIO.


----------



## bom

EDIT: Can anyone comment on the Z390 Master? It's been awhile since, I've been back to OCN and looking for a new board if I can get my hands on an i9 9900K.

Caught this over on reddit, can anyone comment if they are getting similar cases?

Seems like some people are encountering throttling with the Z390 Hero and MSI Z390 ACE boards.

https://imgur.com/gallery/ZSEk5nB


----------



## porksmuggler

bom said:


> EDIT: Can anyone comment on the Z390 Master? It's been awhile since, I've been back to OCN and looking for a new board if I can get my hands on an i9 9900K.
> 
> Caught this over on reddit, can anyone comment if they are getting similar cases?
> 
> Seems like some people are encountering throttling with the Z390 Hero and MSI Z390 ACE boards.
> 
> https://imgur.com/gallery/ZSEk5nB


Looks as expected with those VRM thermal readings, and at least showing on the first screenshot, over 200A current draw and over 100C core temp.

We've been actively discussing the topic, if you look back over the last few days.

I would not expect the same with the Z390 Aorus Master.


----------



## asdkj1740

bom said:


> EDIT: Can anyone comment on the Z390 Master? It's been awhile since, I've been back to OCN and looking for a new board if I can get my hands on an i9 9900K.
> 
> Caught this over on reddit, can anyone comment if they are getting similar cases?
> 
> Seems like some people are encountering throttling with the Z390 Hero and MSI Z390 ACE boards.
> 
> https://imgur.com/gallery/ZSEk5nB


this should be cpu throttlnig.
try increase the tj max temp first


----------



## lichncjx

TjMax is already 115C, isn't it?


----------



## Robbært

lichncjx said:


> TjMax is already 115C, isn't it?


135(150).
capacitors nearby not gonna like it


----------



## Robostyle

bom said:


> EDIT: Can anyone comment on the Z390 Master? It's been awhile since, I've been back to OCN and looking for a new board if I can get my hands on an i9 9900K.
> 
> Caught this over on reddit, can anyone comment if they are getting similar cases?
> 
> Seems like some people are encountering throttling with the Z390 Hero and MSI Z390 ACE boards.
> 
> https://imgur.com/gallery/ZSEk5nB


OMG! 110C with 9900k on stock? Is it all boards that bad? I guess, Z370 doesnt have a chance at all, no matter which one based on 370 to choose?


----------



## zGunBLADEz

Guys instead of fighting with the llc try having vdroop instead on ur desired voltage.

I notice since kaby lake this cpus are more stable/responsive having a higher voltage with vdroop at your desired voltage.

Instead of the traditional set voltage of ie 1.35v and having llc close to maintaining 1.35v and +0.016 or 0.032mV variance in load.

Try having like ie 1.38v with a vdroop that ends around 1.35v area.

I find out to stabilize that better than having llc as close to set voltage.

Also stop using P95 avx on this cpus if you dont want to cry about power and heat like seriously.

P95 is as useful as furmark for gpus now a days XD.

What's next AVX512 on mainstream and seeing people trying to avx the crap out of them?

Just no stop it lol

Use x264 like the one for rog bench for example


Btw when i read something below 220w load on a 9900k on p95 avx i just laugh thats just plain impossible. Seen a 8700k myself with no limits holders around that wattage usage.


----------



## Cyph3r

zGunBLADEz said:


> Guys instead of fighting with the llc try having vdroop instead on ur desired voltage.
> 
> I notice since kaby lake this cpus are more stable/responsive having a higher voltage with vdroop at your desired voltage.
> 
> Instead of the traditional set voltage of ie 1.35v and having llc close to maintaining 1.35v and +0.016 or 0.032mV variance in load.
> 
> Try having like ie 1.38v with a vdroop that ends around 1.35v area.
> 
> I find out to stabilize that better than having llc as close to set voltage.
> 
> Also stop using P95 avx on this cpus if you dont want to cry about power and heat like seriously.
> 
> P95 is as useful as furmark for gpus now a days XD.
> 
> What's next AVX512 on mainstream and seeing people trying to avx the crap out of them?
> 
> Just no stop it lol
> 
> Use x264 like the one for rog bench for example
> 
> 
> Btw when i read something below 220w load on a 9900k on p95 avx i just laugh thats just plain impossible. Seen a 8700k myself with no limits holders around that wattage usage.


Agree 100% with everything you said - I find factoring in vdroop results in stable OCs at slightly lower voltages. In fact, using offset voltage has worked out really well for me on the ASRock Taichi. For 5GHz using the tightest LLC (no vdroop), I need ~1.36v for stable. Factoring in vdroop I can set 1.38v which levels at 1.35v under load. using offset though I can get stable at 1.344v!

Also, my 8700k @ 5GHz/1.34v uses ~230-240w in P95 AVX small ffts with peaks to 250w on my ASRock Z370 Taichi. Only 220w on the Gigabyte Aorus Master though.


----------



## AlphaC

Z390 Aorus Elite might need to be relocated to top of midtier depending on other competing board results out of the box. IIRC Matt obtained a result ~ 80°C with CLC on the Aorus Pro

http://playwares.com/pcreview/56988495#








Prime95 no airflow , Celsius S24 AIO (240mm aluminum rad)

Might be the 5K Apaq caps (possibly higher ESR) and lack of heatpipe holding it back in no airflow situations. It still didn't break 100°C (don't use MCE) but it's a good 20ish °C higher than the Master which was running ~ 72°C (77°C with EMC P/ "MCE").
http://www.apaq.com.tw/images/Product/4324158281_SE.pdf
http://www.apaq.com.tw/images/Product/4316556465_SE.pdf


Different tester on the Aorus Elite on a Kraken X62:
https://quasarzone.co.kr/bbs/board.php?bo_table=qc_qsz&wr_id=189233








(Aorus Master < 60°C _in CB R15_ https://quasarzone.co.kr/bbs/board.php?bo_table=qc_qsz&wr_id=187621&page=2)

Z390 Gaming X = 115°C without airflow , not an AVX advisable board surely...







https://quasarzone.co.kr/bbs/board.php?bo_table=qc_qsz&wr_id=191227

------------------
Another Taichi with NexFETs:
https://www.ocaholic.ch/modules/extgallery/public-photo.php?photoId=46409

------------------

Z390 STRIX ITX , AIDA64 non FPU hit 4.9GHz on i7-9700k:
https://itc.ua/articles/obzor-materinskoy-platyi-asus-rog-strix-z390-i-gaming/

------------------
Independent testing on ROG Hero on Kraken X62:







https://quasarzone.co.kr/bbs/board.php?bo_table=qc_qsz&wr_id=189564

------------------

In other news I was looking at inductors used, something that has been largely forgotten. TUF board uses MILR68 similar to the older gen STRIX with 4 PWM phases.








ROG Hero has a few more output filtering capacitors vs STRIX-E/F as well.

The MSI Edge & pro carbon look to have far fewer output filtering capacitors vs ACE (nearly halved). Clearly there's a stark difference in design between the so called "8 phase" low midrange boards bordering on budget (ASUS TUF/STRIX z390-H and MSI Z390 Tomahawk). Tomahawk was able to hit 5.1GHz @1.35V with AIDA64 CPU test (not FPU) https://thinkcomputers.org/msi-mag-z390-tomahawk-motherboard-review/5/


----------



## porksmuggler

zGunBLADEz said:


> Guys instead of fighting with the llc try having vdroop instead on ur desired voltage.
> 
> I notice since kaby lake this cpus are more stable/responsive having a higher voltage with vdroop at your desired voltage.


Advice much older than KL  but llc is shortcut for most.




zGunBLADEz said:


> Also stop using P95 avx on this cpus if you dont want to cry about power and heat like seriously.


Realistic workloads are no fun, crying counts as water cooling, right?


----------



## zGunBLADEz

Well i dont count an AiO as water cooling perse. You too limited on this kind of cpus. With that type of load.

I wish this cpus have AVX512 so i can amuse myself a little here xD

I just picture them trying 50x on that and i just smile XD


----------



## porksmuggler

zGunBLADEz said:


> Well i dont count an AiO as water cooling perse. You too limited on this kind of cpus. With that type of load.


Perhaps when the dust settles, someone will make a decent AIO now, since this is now mainstream chip. Pigs could fly also.


----------



## NamelessGF

NamelessGF said:


> Transient response time is important, but only for LN2/He XOC area, interleave is way more important for average users (if we see 9900K buyers are average users). ASUS M11H 4x2 no doubler design has one huge design flaw: the load isn't balance in each PWN signal 2 phase, load balance happens in 4 PWM signal but inside each signal 2 phase, no one know how electricity goes, maybe one is 80% and the other is 20%. That's the main reason IR3599 doubler is needed to control the interleaving to make sure load is perfectly balance in each PWM signal phase behind doubler. Without load balance, no doubler is essentially parallel design. IR doubler operate in un-sync mode which each phase behind doubler still works independently in half main PWM chip clock (but we can always use higher clock to compensate that, and the PWM highest clock is rarely used), the communication between IR35201 and IR3599 to make sure PWM chip can do interleaving and load balance on each phase behind doubler. On the other hand, Intersil PWM & Doubler operate in sync mode, so ISL69138+ISL6617 means every 2 phase work independently, but ISL6617 clearly specify it has load balance function otherwise it is useless and become parallel design. Not sure which one is better, but IR is the first company to go digital pwm and i'm pretty sure they already experimented both un-sync and sync mode, and decide to go more expensive/complicated and maybe better un-sync mode. i heard Intersil also is experimenting un-sync mode in new product.
> 
> From what i see it, M11H power design is more like cost decision instead of design decision, Z390 chipset net price is $3~$5 higher than Z370 depends on different Intel incentive program, so maybe asus want to control the cost is almost the same as similar segment between Z370 and Z390. They beef up DrMOS spec and remove doubler to save some cost (each doubler cost ~$0.3) to maintain same PWM design cost. However I'm surprise they ignore load balance issue in parallel design, especially IR has special debug tool/software to read each DrMOS temperature and loading, maybe that tool can't work on any DrMOS except IR own PowIRstage.
> 
> I'm sure M11H can handle 9900K default clock just fine based on their heatsink design, but after 5GHz and torture loading test, I'm pretty sure M11H will go overheating because 9900K overclocking draw massive power and load balance between PWM phases is critical. I'm also surprised no one post any result of M11H + 9900K 5GHz yet, guess on one can buy 9900K anywhere for now....





porksmuggler said:


> Advice much older than KL  but llc is shortcut for most.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Realistic workloads are no fun, crying counts as water cooling, right?



p95 avx is more like "if I can pass this, I can pass everything" benchmark. it's still useful IMHO.
and it's the fastest benchmark to measure VRM temperature, no need to wait long the reach the highest temp. Easier for reviewers I guess.


----------



## Santi74

Hello,

I pre order an i9 9900k.

Actually i have an MSI z370 Gaming M5, do you think it will be a problem with OC and VRm ? I have a WC custom on 420 radiator.

Thanks a lot and sorry for my bad english


----------



## Shiftstealth

AlphaC said:


> Z390 Aorus Elite might need to be relocated to top of midtier depending on other competing board results out of the box. IIRC Matt obtained a result ~ 80°C with CLC on the Aorus Pro
> 
> http://playwares.com/pcreview/56988495#
> View attachment 228106
> 
> 
> Prime95 no airflow , Celsius S24 AIO (240mm aluminum rad)
> 
> Might be the 5K Apaq caps (possibly higher ESR) and lack of heatpipe holding it back in no airflow situations. It still didn't break 100°C (don't use MCE) but it's a good 20ish °C higher than the Master which was running ~ 72°C (77°C with EMC P/ "MCE").
> http://www.apaq.com.tw/images/Product/4324158281_SE.pdf
> http://www.apaq.com.tw/images/Product/4316556465_SE.pdf
> 
> 
> Different tester on the Aorus Elite on a Kraken X62:
> https://quasarzone.co.kr/bbs/board.php?bo_table=qc_qsz&wr_id=189233
> View attachment 228138
> 
> 
> (Aorus Master < 60°C _in CB R15_ https://quasarzone.co.kr/bbs/board.php?bo_table=qc_qsz&wr_id=187621&page=2)
> 
> Z390 Gaming X = 115°C without airflow , not an AVX advisable board surely...
> View attachment 228156
> 
> https://quasarzone.co.kr/bbs/board.php?bo_table=qc_qsz&wr_id=191227
> 
> ------------------
> Another Taichi with NexFETs:
> https://www.ocaholic.ch/modules/extgallery/public-photo.php?photoId=46409
> 
> ------------------
> 
> Z390 STRIX ITX , AIDA64 non FPU hit 4.9GHz on i7-9700k:
> https://itc.ua/articles/obzor-materinskoy-platyi-asus-rog-strix-z390-i-gaming/
> 
> ------------------
> Independent testing on ROG Hero on Kraken X62:
> View attachment 228122
> 
> https://quasarzone.co.kr/bbs/board.php?bo_table=qc_qsz&wr_id=189564
> 
> ------------------
> 
> In other news I was looking at inductors used, something that has been largely forgotten. TUF board uses MILR68 similar to the older gen STRIX with 4 PWM phases.
> View attachment 228108
> 
> 
> ROG Hero has a few more output filtering capacitors vs STRIX-E/F as well.
> 
> The MSI Edge & pro carbon look to have far fewer output filtering capacitors vs ACE (nearly halved). Clearly there's a stark difference in design between the so called "8 phase" low midrange boards bordering on budget (ASUS TUF/STRIX z390-H and MSI Z390 Tomahawk). Tomahawk was able to hit 5.1GHz @1.35V with AIDA64 CPU test (not FPU) https://thinkcomputers.org/msi-mag-z390-tomahawk-motherboard-review/5/




Do these "no airflow" situations use case fans, or is that just strictly referencing AIOs? Makes me curious if i'm causing issues with my board with my AIO, but i do have 5 120's running in my case so i think i'd be ok. Not sure where, or how much one of these temp guns would be.


----------



## AlphaC

Shiftstealth said:


> Do these "no airflow" situations use case fans, or is that just strictly referencing AIOs? Makes me curious if i'm causing issues with my board with my AIO, but i do have 5 120's running in my case so i think i'd be ok. Not sure where, or how much one of these temp guns would be.


 It's literally no direct airflow at least on playwares , quasarzone measures at the back (might be more accurate if PCB doesn't conduct heat through it well):


----------



## Shiftstealth

AlphaC said:


> It's literally no direct airflow at least on playwares , quasarzone measures at the back (might be more accurate if PCB doesn't conduct heat through it well):


Hmph, I'd have to wonder how much my case fans would lower the temperature then.


----------



## tostitobandito

Case fans should improve things over a bench with no airflow, though it depends on your configuration. In most cases the rear and possibly top exhaust fans will help pull air through the VRM heatsink area and out of the case. If you have good airflow from your intakes, I think this would be better than a static bench. Especially since the benches pictured above were using a water cooled CPU so they didn't even have the CPU cooler fans helping out with the VRM's, which they tend to do.


----------



## vvoid

@AlphaC: Is there an updated list of your Z390 "VRM Tier List"? The old link seems to be down... Thanks!

I'm still unsure what board to get for an i7-9700k.
On the one hand, I kind of like Gigabyte's Aorus lineup, especially concerning their VRM design, but am somewhat being put down by various reports about bad memory overclocking and generally the BIOS.
Then there's Asus, where I'm sceptical about their VRM "Twin Phase" story, sounds a lot like marketing bs to me, sorry. But they seem to do quite well in reviews, so I don't know, maybe it's just not that relevant after all. Wouldn't it be for their huge price premium, I think I'd get the Hero or maybe the Gene...
What about Asrock? Taichi seems ok'ish, but also not exactly cheap and I'm wondering if, for example, the Aorus Ultra wouldn't be a better choice, especially considering it is even a bit cheaper. What about Phantom Gaming 6?
MSI is out for me I guess, because only ACE could be considered comparable, but it's more expensive and I don't kind of like the look/image/software/etc.
EVGA FTW maybe? Not much info yet...

I guess my question is, what would be a really solid high mid-range board for heavy overclocking of an i7-9700k without issues and compromises? Top-End boards likely are overkill for the i7 and I also don't need a ton of esoteric features like 3 NICs and the like.
Edit: To be clear, custom water loop is in place, so CPU temp should not be an issue, even on higher voltages like 1.4V.


----------



## AlphaC

Oh for i7-9700k the power draw is not as high due to no hyperthreading. The original post I had the chart in is updated (https://www.overclock.net/forum/27657582-post2156.html).

Depending on if you plan on using video editing or AVX applications for scientific/engineering (FFT)/mathematics use , you can use a heftier AVX offset (4 or more to reach the "stock" 4.2-4.3ish AVX clocks) if you end up with a cheap board $130-140 so long as it is fully heatsinked. There ARE terrible choices in the current market climate though such as the STRIX z390-H which is a reskinned better IO & audio z390-P as well as TUF boards selling for $180 USD despite having 3 audio jacks and nothing worthy of note. I really don't see why someone would buy those over a MSI edge ATX or Aorus board , it's not like they have the auto AI OC feature that supposedly saves people time OC-ing.

For your use case I would look at the Aorus Pro. There's really no point to buy an Aorus Elite from what I've seen price-wise it's about $5-10 difference to Pro and you get many things for that money including better capacitors, a heatsink heatpipe, more fan headers, more thermal sensors, etc. For about the price of the Phantom Gaming 6 / STRIX boards you get something that is a known quantity (Silicon Lottery endorsed and also several datapoints with Infrared imaging). The audio section is supposed to be better as well and IO appears to be less sparse.

It seems MSI has had their low end (it's more high volume especially in Asian markets) more in order, except for the few SKUs that are missing heatsinks entirely. Their 4c024n low side mosfet solution has a ~33% advantage in on state resistance vs the 4c06n on the Gigabyte and Asus low end boards so it remains to be seen how well they do in practice fully loaded.

The only people that wouldn't be looking at Aorus boards are those people that need a PS/2 port (i.e. for Windows 7 or other things) because I've seen some reports that the USB ports are all Intel and not Asmedia so there needs to be some time before those see full support outside windows 10 / Linux with Intel z390 support. Those people ought to look at the Taichi or Hero / STRIX-E (it looks to do alright with i9 non-AVX but it should be more than fine for non AVX i7).

I was looking at pugetsystems and it seems their Z390 platform is offering MSI Z390M Edge AC and the Aorus Pro WIFI as the default options, so at least one vendor feels those are the optimal "standard" choices.

This is their thermal imagery of the Z390M Edge AC at stock inside a Fractal Design Define case of some sort (NH-U12s cooler , Quadro P2000 75W GPU)


Spoiler













From https://www.pugetsystems.com/parts/Motherboard/MSI-Z390M-Edge-AC-12858 , under thermal images

This is the Aorus Pro Wifi, stock inside a Fractal Design Define of some sort (NH-U12s cooler , likely EVGA GTX1050 ti 75W GPU)


Spoiler















This is with a higher powered MSI GPU heating the inside of a Define case


Spoiler













https://www.pugetsystems.com/parts/Motherboard/Gigabyte-Z390-Aorus-Pro-WiFi-12856


----------



## cletus-cassidy

Based on the information we have now, and with regard to VRM and CPU overclocking, it seems like the data shows the Aorus Master as the best ~$300 Z390 motherboard. Do others concur or am I missing something?


----------



## Robostyle

Any plans on updating Z370 chart? Alot of motherboards gonna be discounted + I think there were solid options for 9900K


----------



## Sin0822

I think only a few Z370 motherboards are going to be able to handle the 9900K well. Intel updated their power guidance for the new "95W" 9900K, the power spec guidance for 95W CPUs during Z370 launch is not the same as new guidance for "95W" CPUs right before Z390 launch.


----------



## toncij

Sin0822 said:


> I think only a few Z370 motherboards are going to be able to handle the 9900K well. Intel updated their power guidance for the new "95W" 9900K, the power spec guidance for 95W CPUs during Z370 launch is not the same as new guidance for "95W" CPUs right before Z390 launch.


No problems with a 9900K at 1.36V 5.2, AVXoffset 0, 4000MHzC17 RAM, 4.3GHz cache on Asus Maximus X Formula Z370.


----------



## Shiftstealth

toncij said:


> No problems with a 9900K at 1.36V 5.2, AVXoffset 0, 4000MHzC17 RAM, 4.3GHz cache on Asus Maximus X Formula Z370.


Nice. Seems like the 9900K is super binned.


----------



## toncij

I've seen better chips online; people running 5.2 on 1.29V, but I think slower RAM so IMC probably didn't eat as much.
And it's a hot chip: 360mm AIO, slim rad,, 300RPM push-pull, ~40°C idle (ambient is 26°C).


----------



## porksmuggler

toncij said:


> I've seen better chips online; people running 5.2 on 1.29V, but I think slower RAM so IMC probably didn't eat as much.
> And it's a hot chip: 360mm AIO, slim rad,, 300RPM push-pull, ~40°C idle (ambient is 26°C).


If you don't mind me asking, which AIO is that on?


----------



## porksmuggler

cletus-cassidy said:


> Based on the information we have now, and with regard to VRM and CPU overclocking, it seems like the data shows the Aorus Master as the best ~$300 Z390 motherboard. Do others concur or am I missing something?


It's the only consideration for me at that price point, and one of four I'm probably going to end up using for any 9900K requests, depending on OC requested and some of the other gaming friendly features.

Down from there, I'm still waiting to see more results on the Phantom Gaming 9, then its the Aorus Ultra and Pro WiFi.


----------



## dudy80

Just wondering, i jumped the gun and ordered a MSI gaming edge AC before all this came out and i enlightened myself. Is it going to be ok for a i9 still? Dont plan to do much more then MCE on as it seems like unless you running a custom loop your not gonna get much more then that without insane power draw and temps. Pairing it with a X72 AIO and a 2080ti FE.


----------



## Sin0822

toncij said:


> No problems with a 9900K at 1.36V 5.2, AVXoffset 0, 4000MHzC17 RAM, 4.3GHz cache on Asus Maximus X Formula Z370.



Yea i said most, that motherboard has a very good VRM


----------



## elmor

bom said:


> EDIT: Can anyone comment on the Z390 Master? It's been awhile since, I've been back to OCN and looking for a new board if I can get my hands on an i9 9900K.
> 
> Caught this over on reddit, can anyone comment if they are getting similar cases?
> 
> Seems like some people are encountering throttling with the Z390 Hero and MSI Z390 ACE boards.
> 
> https://imgur.com/gallery/ZSEk5nB





Robostyle said:


> OMG! 110C with 9900k on stock? Is it all boards that bad? I guess, Z370 doesnt have a chance at all, no matter which one based on 370 to choose?


The same user already has a screenshot of Gigabyte Aorus Z390 Master in an album "AORUS Z390 Master 5.0 GHz OC". The Asus and Msi screenshots are in a separate album "ASUS Z390 Maximus XI Hero and MSI MEG Z390 ACE Thermal Throttling?!". This is obviously from a Gigabyte employee or similar. That said, I don't doubt that the Aorus Master will have better VRM temperatures than M11H or MEG Z390 ACE.

A few things to note:

- CPUs are not at stock, seems to be ~5GHz 1.3V on all boards
- Tjmax has been increased to 115*C to prevent CPU thermal throttling
- CPU Cores are reaching 109*C
- CPU Power consumption ~250-260W
- Prime95 with unknown settings, but most likely small FFTs + AVX
- Probably no airflow to the VRM

https://imgur.com/gallery/EykspSb
https://imgur.com/gallery/ZSEk5nB


----------



## cg4200

Welljust ordered the msi meg ace... 12+1 13 phase i know its not the best but should do ok for now.. cons no igp would be good to have for that price.

I really wanted the supermicro pgw nice looking board plx chip so 16x 16x gpu 10 phase listed for 140 cpu but only 1 8 pin for cpu?
Any one know much about this board looks like some server class parts also mentions digital 50 ir but i don't know alot about that.i have 9900k will be here thursday.
Biggest turn off was does not look like much support for drivers bios updates at there website. 
Any input would be great that is the board i was gonna buy but i have had great luck last few Msi thanks


----------



## Sin0822

cg4200 said:


> Welljust ordered the msi meg ace... 12+1 13 phase i know its not the best but should do ok for now.. cons no igp would be good to have for that price.
> 
> I really wanted the supermicro pgw nice looking board plx chip so 16x 16x gpu 10 phase listed for 140 cpu but only 1 8 pin for cpu?
> Any one know much about this board looks like some server class parts also mentions digital 50 ir but i don't know alot about that.i have 9900k will be here thursday.
> Biggest turn off was does not look like much support for drivers bios updates at there website.
> Any input would be great that is the board i was gonna buy but i have had great luck last few Msi thanks


I am reviewing that board now, the VRM is in a 6+2 phase configuration, will let you know how it goes under the thermal camera.


----------



## encrypted11

Sin0822 said:


> I am reviewing that board now, the VRM is in a 6+2 phase configuration, will let you know how it goes under the thermal camera.


 @Sin0822 the ASRock Fatal1ty Gaming-ITX/ac came with a PL1/PL2 cap of 200W from BIOS restrictions, VDIMM/SA adjustments go in 50mV increments with IO cap at 1.2V, SA at 1.35V, VDIMM at 1.5V.

Were the limits revised on the Z390 Phantom Gaming-ITX/ac?


----------



## KedarWolf

Sin0822 said:


> Yea i said most, that motherboard has a very good VRM


I have a Maximus X Formula. want to buy a 9900k today's pay, but I'm like a $100 short after bills and stuff I can't put off.


----------



## porksmuggler

Sin0822 said:


> I am reviewing that board now, the VRM is in a 6+2 phase configuration, will let you know how it goes under the thermal camera.


Interested in that VRM, I couldn't find shots for confirmation, but think it was IR35201(6+2), 6x IR3598, and what 4C029N High / 4C024N Low?

Edit: And the +1, is that choke printed with Ti?


----------



## sdch

encrypted11 said:


> @Sin0822 the ASRock Fatal1ty Gaming-ITX/ac came with a PL1/PL2 cap of 200W from BIOS restrictions, VDIMM/SA adjustments go in 50mV increments with IO cap at 1.2V, SA at 1.35V, VDIMM at 1.5V.
> 
> Were the limits revised on the Z390 Phantom Gaming-ITX/ac?


I'm curious about this as well.


----------



## Santi74

Hello

I pre order a i9 9900k. Actually i have a Z370 Msi Gaming M5 with Wc custom radiator 420. 

This Motherboard can can handle about the vrm ? 

Thanks and sorry for my english


----------



## Sin0822

porksmuggler said:


> Interested in that VRM, I couldn't find shots for confirmation, but think it was IR35201(6+2), 6x IR3598, and what 4C029N High / 4C024N Low?
> 
> Edit: And the +1, is that choke printed with Ti?


The Supermicro? It's Primarion and Infineon power stages




KedarWolf said:


> I have a Maximus X Formula. want to buy a 9900k today's pay, but I'm like a $100 short after bills and stuff I can't put off.


Almost there!



encrypted11 said:


> @Sin0822 the ASRock Fatal1ty Gaming-ITX/ac came with a PL1/PL2 cap of 200W from BIOS restrictions, VDIMM/SA adjustments go in 50mV increments with IO cap at 1.2V, SA at 1.35V, VDIMM at 1.5V.
> 
> Were the limits revised on the Z390 Phantom Gaming-ITX/ac?


Ill check it's next up on the table, but even with those limits, you should know Intel has speced higher than that.. TDP looks to be a suggestion with SSE in certain conditions lol Prime 95 AVX always go way further.


----------



## porksmuggler

Sin0822 said:


> The Supermicro? It's Primarion and Infineon power stages


Actually was referring to the MEG Ace, I thought that was the one you were reviewing, sorry.


----------



## Sin0822

Here you go, nvm this is the edge ac, the naming is crazy this round


----------



## porksmuggler

Sin0822 said:


> Here you go, nvm this is the edge ac, the naming is crazy this round


Tell me about it, and yes, that's the Edge AC. I know because even when I'm mining for images of the MEG Ace, half come back for the Edge AC. I'm tired of seeing that VRM, lol.

Edit: Think this is the closest shot I can find. IR35201(6+2)?(6+0)?, 6x IR3598, and what 4C029N High / 4C024N Low, right, but what up with the Ti printed choke?


----------



## KedarWolf

KedarWolf said:


> I have a Maximus X Formula. want to buy a 9900k today's pay, but I'm like a $100 short after bills and stuff I can't put off.


I forgot I had already paid off a bill early. Bought a 9900k online for pickup in the a.m.!!

But, I'm soooooo sick, 'cough cough', needed the day off work, totally not to mess with the CPU, I kid you not!


----------



## toncij

porksmuggler said:


> If you don't mind me asking, which AIO is that on?


Corsair H150i Pro with 6 fans instead of 3 (probably to no difference tho).



Sin0822 said:


> Yea i said most, that motherboard has a very good VRM


Sure, np, just "reporting with data" if anyone is interested. Seems to do its job fine so far. Will put all under water soon and see how good it gets. At this moment, with gaming and typical desktop work I do (programming with occasional compilation/build) the VRM sits at about 50-60°C. The highest I've seen it was 74°C at full load. Under water it will do better I guess.


----------



## Jann

Picking from MSI Z390M Edge AC or Asus TUF Z390M-PRO GAMING (WI-FI). Both actually cost almost the same locally.
The VRM setup seems similar. So which one seems more suitable for 8700k now, and maybe a 9900k later?
Want ability to set up two gpus for 3d rendering (so need proper 8x/8x split at least), and 64Gb ram option (starting with 32Gb).
Sad to see so few proper mAtx boards, as they make great medium systems for mixed gaming/workstation use.


----------



## Telstar

Any review of the Gene with VRM thermals?


----------



## encrypted11

Bought the Phantom ITX
First thoughts, from a Z370 Fatal1ty ITX perspective

1. Phantom Gaming ITX/ac Rev 1.02 (Sin0822 has a 1.01)
2. GT Cores using multilayer polymer caps instead of horizontal nichicon 12k cans?
3. I recall the Z370 was using 1.5mm pads, this is likely no different. The thickness of the nut along the VRM sink seemed a little thinner, the pad contact has likely improved as a result (though there were no VRM heating issues with the Z370). I'm seeing slight sweating on the chipset from the thermal pad without any usage, might replace them with 11W/mK fujipolys. The previous grey pads on the Z370 don't sweat at all at least after 10 months of use. The yellow pads are making good contact though, neither of these are squishy pads.
4. Arghh, I've got a SM7341EH than the FDPC5030SG

Overall satisfied with what I'm noticing so far. Nothing alarmist. But I'll probably replace the pads before using it anyway with my 5.3G 8700K.


----------



## Santi74

Nobody for answer me ?


----------



## asdkj1740

Santi74 said:


> Hello
> 
> I pre order a i9 9900k. Actually i have a Z370 Msi Gaming M5 with Wc custom radiator 420.
> 
> This Motherboard can can handle about the vrm ?
> 
> Thanks and sorry for my english


msi z370 m5 uses upi doublers to get doubled 8 phases. should be all fine if you put a small fan on the heatsink.


----------



## asdkj1740

encrypted11 said:


> Bought the Phantom ITX
> First thoughts, from a Z370 Fatal1ty ITX perspective
> 
> 1. Phantom Gaming ITX/ac Rev 1.02 (Sin0822 has a 1.01)
> 2. GT Cores using multilayer polymer caps instead of horizontal nichicon 12k cans?
> 3. I recall the Z370 was using 1.5mm pads, this is likely no different. The thickness of the nut along the VRM sink seemed a little thinner, the pad contact has likely improved as a result (though there were no VRM heating issues with the Z370). I'm seeing slight sweating on the chipset from the thermal pad without any usage, might replace them with 11W/mK fujipolys. The previous grey pads on the Z370 don't sweat at all at least after 10 months of use. The yellow pads are making good contact though, neither of these are squishy pads.
> 4. Arghh, I've got a SM7341EH than the FDPC5030SG
> 
> Overall satisfied with what I'm noticing so far. Nothing alarmist. But I'll probably replace the pads before using it anyway with my 5.3G 8700K.


sp caps on the back of the pcb are good.
after the lesson learnt from gigabyte and evga, i always go for thick pad first, mounting pressure is king.
dont need to worry about ddr4 vrm.

i also spot that the a regulator differs from two rev.
tweaktown's preview of rev1.01 is rt9045 from richtek.
yours with rev1.02 is NCT3101S from NUVOTON.

https://www.tweaktown.com/image.php...om-gaming-itx-ac-motherboard-preview_full.jpg
https://abload.de/image.php?img=5vcc9cc71.jpg

the markings printed near on the mosfets indicate it is a 7 phases vrm for vcore only.
i was thinking the rt9045 or NCT3101S is a vrm controller that integrated everything inside controlling the igpu....


----------



## Santi74

asdkj1740 said:


> msi z370 m5 uses upi doublers to get doubled 8 phases. should be all fine if you put a small fan on the heatsink.


Well i think its better To buy the gigabyte z390 master and sell my motherboard. Cant mount a fan on vrm


----------



## encrypted11

asdkj1740 said:


> sp caps on the back of the pcb are good.
> after the lesson learnt from gigabyte z370, i always go for thick pad first, mounting pressure is king.
> dont need to worry about ddr4 vrm.



Yup, improvements overall for $10!
I'm hoping it has improved memory signalling margin over the Z370 that was already awesome for a $190 board, also hoping for a larger power limit over the Z370.


----------



## asdkj1740

encrypted11 said:


> Yup, improvements overall for $10!
> I'm hoping it has improved memory signalling margin over the Z370 that was already awesome for a $190 board, also hoping for a larger power limit over the Z370.


you should buy msi one for ddr4 oc.


----------



## Duality92

What do you guys think about a 9900K on a Gigabyte Z370N WiFi


----------



## asdkj1740

Duality92 said:


> What do you guys think about a 9900K on a Gigabyte Z370N WiFi


terrible idea.


----------



## Shiftstealth

Duality92 said:


> What do you guys think about a 9900K on a Gigabyte Z370N WiFi


Oof, it only has 6 phases. I am concerned about a 9900K on my 8 phase Z370-A. I don't think i'd put it in a board with 6 phases.


----------



## encrypted11

asdkj1740 said:


> you should buy msi one for ddr4 oc.


While the MSI Z370 ITX held the former world record for raw DRAM frequency, it isn't a proven board for running low tCAS and tight subs (~8ns's the b-die sweetspot without getting into large VDIMM increases) at daily use Google Stressapptest stablility. I can't give the 36W PD charging a miss either, it takes about 10 minutes less for a full Google Pixel 2 charge on my motherboard over the Google stock charger on 220/240V wall outlets.


----------



## asdkj1740

Shiftstealth said:


> Oof, it only has 6 phases. I am concerned about a 9900K on my 8 phase Z370-A. I don't think i'd put it in a board with 6 phases.


single 4 phases with 1H2L...good luck with that little heatsink.
i just cancelled my 9900k order on amazon...sadly, i have a z370n wifi on office, otherwise i would have pushed 1.35v on that lol.


----------



## KedarWolf

With only options in Nvidia Control Panel changed being Maximum Performance, Prerendered Frames at 1, Shader Cache off, Anisotropic Sample Optimization On, and V-Sync off with the Palit BIOS, 1080 Ti and CPU under custom water.

8700k, Z370 Maximus X Formula motherboard. 

https://www.3dmark.com/3dm/29901822










9900k, Z370 Maximus X Formula motherboard, slightly better graphics score, a huge jump in CPU score. VRM's while stress testing with RealBench hover around 61C WITHOUT water cooling. 

https://www.3dmark.com/3dm/29916352


----------



## vvoid

AlphaC said:


> ...
> For your use case I would look at the Aorus Pro. There's really no point to buy an Aorus Elite from what I've seen price-wise it's about $5-10 difference to Pro and you get many things for that money including better capacitors, a heatsink heatpipe, more fan headers, more thermal sensors, etc.
> ...


Yeah, Aorus Pro is sound advice for the i7, certainly the most cost-effective solution.

What I'm worried about is that Elite/Pro/Ultra probably have a stripped set of BIOS-options concerning overclocking, in contrast to Master at least. For example, they seem to be missing VRM switching frequency and duty cycle settings. I suppose I could live with that, but are there further differences? Anyone has more insight?
Thanks again guys, great forum!

Edit (as always it seems, lol): I've got a bonus question regarding VRM switching frequency. Why is it that boards with doublers (aka "extended phase" in Asus terms) seem to be using the same (or very similar) freq per default compared to boards without doublers? In my understanding, shouldn't doubler'd boards set double the freq from a PWM-controller view? Doublers effectively half the freq for each single powerstage, right? Wouldn't the resulting 250KHz per "phase" be too low in terms of improving ripple, or more like in general, what the doubler'd design is trying to archive in the first place?


----------



## porksmuggler

encrypted11 said:


> Bought the Phantom ITX
> 
> 4. Arghh, I've got a SM7341EH than the FDPC5030SG


So many different FETs on that board revisions, review I saw was ISL9927 on it.


----------



## Sin0822

porksmuggler said:


> So many different FETs on that board revisions, review I saw was ISL9927 on it.


I believe he is talking about memory VRM, not CPU, that should still be the nice Interstil SPS


----------



## porksmuggler

Sin0822 said:


> I believe he is talking about memory VRM, not CPU, that should still be the nice Interstil SPS


Thank you, I see now, and of course he had it circled in red. New eyes, needed more than new boards, yet I will have new boards first. This hobby, going blind for it.


----------



## Sin0822

porksmuggler said:


> Thank you, I see now, and of course he had it circled in red. New eyes, needed more than new boards, yet I will have new boards first. This hobby, going blind for it.


Haha no worries, when i do some inspections I use a small magnifying glass with an integrated light under it, it works well, especially when the lighting in the room sucks.


----------



## AlphaC

Jann said:


> Picking from MSI Z390M Edge AC or Asus TUF Z390M-PRO GAMING (WI-FI). Both actually cost almost the same locally.
> The VRM setup seems similar. So which one seems more suitable for 8700k now, and maybe a 9900k later?
> Want ability to set up two gpus for 3d rendering (so need proper 8x/8x split at least), and 64Gb ram option (starting with 32Gb).
> Sad to see so few proper mAtx boards, as they make great medium systems for mixed gaming/workstation use.


TUF is pretty pathetic for the money IMO as they don't use doublers or the higher quality mosfets. Due to the use of the 4C06N low side fet without doubler it is a weaker board than one with a 4c024N with ~33% less RDS(on) and a larger heatsink such as the Z390M Edge. In that particular situation, it means your low side RDS(on) isn't as massively reduced since it has to handle 1/4 of the total current through every pair of them and the high side fet switches on 1/4 of the time rather than 1/8 of the time. Because they aren't using powerstages or powerblocks there's no way to very effectively reduce the RDS(on) of the low side fet (no Schottky diode either) and they need to use resistors and such to do sensing. 

Onsemi's calculator suggests that at 193A for 4 phases with 2x 4C024N low side (8 low side mosfets) it's going to be ~4.8W of low side conduction losses per pair at 1.35V. That's a very large amount that's going to be difficult to cool. With a 4C06 as on the TUF it'll be ~6.2W of losses per pair which is basically not going to happen with that heatsink they have on there. For the implementations with Powerpak the low side conduction losses are the largest factor.

For a hexcore the 138A current limit would result in ~3.1W per pair of 4c06N (on the TUF) or ~2.4W per pair of 4C024N on the MSI Edge. This is much more manageable.

If you look a few pages ago I posted a MILR68 inductor for the TUF. That means versus the R42 inductor on the MSI lower midrange boards it requires a larger inductor by design, or the inductor is simply oversized.

The Z390M Edge is a better buy even when you don't count the VRM or the larger VRM heatsink, the audio is better since it's using ALC1220P-VB2 instead of some custom 1200S solution (with only 3 rear jacks) and the memory support on the QVL is higher. There's also debug status LEDs on the Edge for if things go wrong.

It remains to be seen how well the Gigabyte implementation is on mATX (Onsemi suggests about 1.9W per low side fet will need to be dissipated for a octocore or ~0.44W for hexcore), but even if it were slightly better due to use of a doubler & 2 more phases, the Edge mATX is a better all around board in terms of design decisions such as ALC892 and the push pin heatsink. It's not an Aorus board so I don't expect anything really amazing (and B450 shows that going off branding is a fallacy) since AFAIK only recently the Aorus division is focused on overclocking similar to the difference between ROG and PRIME. 

Side note: It's shame that the ATX version of the Edge is using 433 Mbps WIFI and the IO at the rear is more or less the same as the mATX. One of the things worth noting that doesn't make sense to me.

Also ASUS may have over 50% marketshare so don't buy their low end boards just because it's ASUS and increase it unwittingly especially if another board manufacturer has a better offering for your needs:
https://nl.hardware.info/nieuws/60793/asus-mikt-op-60-marktaandeel-bij-moederborden
From Digitimes:


> Asustek Computer is expected to be the only company capable of shipping over 10 million motherboards worldwide in 2019, according to market sources.
> The sources said that Asustek may maintain its 2018 global motherboard shipments at the level of 16 million as recorded in 2017, and Gigabyte Technology's shipments are likely to fall under 12 million units from 12.7 million in 2017.
> 
> Asustek has not only stayed as the number one motherboard vendor in China, the US, and Europe, but also seen its market shares hit a new high of over 50% in Southeast Asia, Japan and South Korea so far this year, the sources continued.
> 
> Kris Huang, general manager of Gaming Gear & ACCY Business Unit at Asus Republic of Gamers (ROG), said that he is confident that Asustek will continue to enjoy unshakeable leadership in the motherboard sector. He stressed that Asustek's latest high-end ROG gaming motherboard featuring Intel Z390 chipset is expected to enjoy booming patronage from customers, helping to drive up the firm's global market share to over 60% and boost its average selling price (ASP) for motherboards.
> Jackie Hsu, global vice president and general manager of worldwide sales for the Open Platform Business Group at Asustek, said that despite the fading of the cryptocurrency mining fever, the shipment and revenue performances for the firm's open platform products including motherboards, gaming monitors, servers and wireless routers have bucked the industry's downward sales trend, managing to score higher single-digit increases in 2018.
> Karl Chu, general manager of Asia Pacific sales business unit at Asustek, said over 50% of motherboards sold in seven out of 13 markets in Asia Pacific are now supplied by Asustek. Thanks to rapid increases in demand from the gaming sector, the Southeast Asia market is now serving as the largest growth engine for the firm's motherboard revenue and profit performances.


TL;DR: Unless buying a ROG Gene, the Edge mATX is a well rounded board.



Telstar said:


> Any review of the Gene with VRM thermals?


You don't need a review to tell you that the ROG Gene with 10x IR3555 60A powerstages is overkill for ambient provided the VRM heatsink isn't a joke. Similar to my response to people complaining about the ROG Hero being only a "4 phase board" when it really isn't as large an issue as the Internet is making it out to be when it's using powerstages, just because a youtube benchmarker told them so.



asdkj1740 said:


> msi z370 m5 uses upi doublers to get doubled 8 phases. should be all fine if you put a small fan on the heatsink.


They use a UP1962 which only says that it drives two mosfets (https://www.upi-semi.com/en-article-upi-681-1847 , https://www.upi-semi.com/files/1847/ba4ca758-28a3-11e6-8889-c5d1c66ed1d0) so I would hesitate to call that doubled. The Z370 M5 has a heatpipe but it's basically the same as a Z390 Tomahawk . Should be fine with airflow , not sure about no offset and AVX. I've seen Tomahawk boards push i9 to 5.1GHz but that is in very light loads.



Duality92 said:


> What do you guys think about a 9900K on a Gigabyte Z370N WiFi


Was heating up even with the i7-8700K due to use of Powerpaks (in 4 phase doubled up low side), I'd go for the Z390 Phantom Gaming ITX ... it's a known quantity with 5x 60A powerstages and a much larger heatsink

The STRIX Z390-I ITX should do alright, but I doubt even with the whole IO shield that the NCP302045 45A powerstages can match the outright efficiency of 60A Smart powerstages just by adding one phase


-------------------

In other news there's going to be a Z390 Designare with 12 phases , 2x M.2, and ALC1220-VB , so it's likely a reskinned Ultra or Aorus Pro WIFI USB 3.1 gen 2 front panel header so it's a reskinned Ultra lacing 3rd M.2 with Thunderbolt+ Dual LAN given the lack of the Debug LED and the product page

https://www.gigabyte.com/Press/News/1647 , https://www.gigabyte.com/Motherboard/Z390-DESIGNARE-rev-10#kf

Mentions a direct touch heatpipe + "blackplate", but with the low fin area I wouldn't expect miracles from the front heatsink. Gigabyte probably could have hidden some fins under IO shield and then put a emergency fan there as they usually do. It's a bad design decision to not reuse heatsinks , you increase tooling costs and the number of production lines.

The Aorus Xtreme has been reviewed at Eteknix in a very conservative manner. 

https://www.eteknix.com/aorus-xtreme-z390-gaming-motherboard-review/5/


----------



## GBT-MatthewH

Designare same VRM as Ultra/Pro/Elite


----------



## Jann

AlphaC said:


> Also ASUS may have over 50% marketshare so don't buy their low end boards just because it's ASUS and increase it unwittingly especially if another board manufacturer has a better offering for your needs: ...
> TL;DR: Unless buying a ROG Gene, the Edge mATX is a well rounded board.


Thanks for the expansive answer. Edge it is then!
As stated before, I checked all Z390 mAtx boards, and only those two have proper dual gpu support.
Gene, for my use case, is just an oversized itx board


----------



## GreedyMuffin

You guys worrying about a 9900K on mid-end Z370 boards, and I'm afraid of using a 9900K on my Z370 Taichi.


----------



## AlphaC

GreedyMuffin said:


> You guys worrying about a 9900K on mid-end Z370 boards, and I'm afraid of using a 9900K on my Z370 Taichi.


 If you're using a custom loop as in your signature, I would try using the Z370 Taichi monoblock if you want to keep it and use AVX instructions with low or no offset.


Which variant do you have? check the memory VRM for sinopower or Fairchild. The Sinopower one should respond better to cooling due to lower thermal resistance to casing and lower RDS(on) but the Fairchild one should be better for light load due to faster switching.


----------



## cg4200

Sin0822 said:


> I am reviewing that board now, the VRM is in a 6+2 phase configuration, will let you know how it goes under the thermal camera.


Hey thanks a lot when you find out how it performs would be great to get some info and your opinion ... Thanks again


----------



## eric98k

GN: Optimized vs. Cheating: Z390 Motherboard BCLK Comparison
https://www.gamersnexus.net/guides/3385-cheating-or-optimized-z390-motherboard-bclk-comparison


----------



## sdch

eric98k said:


> GN: Optimized vs. Cheating: Z390 Motherboard BCLK Comparison
> https://www.gamersnexus.net/guides/3385-cheating-or-optimized-z390-motherboard-bclk-comparison
> --snip--


I like the spirit of this testing and Gamers Nexus seems to be one of the more decent YouTube personalities, but it seems to miss the mark. The difference in power consumption can also be due to VRM implementation and how the vendor has chosen to set the default power/current limits. Plus Cinebench runs so quick that the typical boost limits are never hit. I'm not sure why he chose to focus so much effort on just one part of the puzzle.


----------



## porksmuggler

sdch said:


> I like the spirit of this testing and Gamers Nexus seems to be one of the more decent YouTube personalities, but it seems to miss the mark. The difference in power consumption can also be due to VRM implementation and how the vendor has chosen to set the default power/current limits. Plus Cinebench runs so quick that the typical boost limits are never hit. I'm not sure why he chose to focus so much effort on just one part of the puzzle.


I was certain that whole series of graphs was to demonstrate how power thrifty the EVGA Z390 FTW is, no?


----------



## sdch

porksmuggler said:


> I was certain that whole series of graphs was to demonstrate how power thrifty the EVGA Z390 FTW is, no?


Not really. One of his assertions is that BLCK adjustments by board vendors affect power consumption. While true, I would argue that measuring power at the EPS, thus including VRM losses in the power measurement, would have a greater impact since every motherboard tested has a different power delivery implementation. That and not considering how each board has configured power and current limits in the BIOS. He ALMOST figures this out with his comments regarding IccMax and Asus.


----------



## porksmuggler

sdch said:


> Not really. One of his assertions is that BLCK adjustments by board vendors affect power consumption. While true, I would argue that measuring power at the EPS, thus including VRM losses in the power measurement, would have a greater impact since every motherboard tested has a different power delivery implementation. That and not considering how each board has configured power and current limits in the BIOS. He ALMOST figures this out with his comments regarding IccMax and Asus.


It was sarcasm, sorry. should have added  at the end.


----------



## sdch

porksmuggler said:


> It was sarcasm, sorry. should have added  at the end.


Haha, so sorry, I'm dense today.


----------



## porksmuggler

sdch said:


> Haha, so sorry, I'm dense today.


No worries, deadpan is easy in text. I should go ask him, he looks familiar, and I used to have lan parties near where they are.


----------



## dudy80

Asked before but it got lost in the shuffle, will a MSI gaming edge AC be ok for the 9900k at stock or 5.0 MCE, or should i return it and get something else? Thanks.


----------



## Sin0822

should be okay at stock, just keep up airflow in your case


----------



## dudy80

Sin0822 said:


> should be okay at stock, just keep up airflow in your case


Thanks, will have two 140mm exhaust fans and then i will have a 360mm rad in the front with 6 fans in push/pull.


----------



## Robbært

dudy80 said:


> Thanks, will have two 140mm exhaust fans and then i will have a 360mm rad in the front with 6 fans in push/pull.


6 fans and case allow only mATX boards?


----------



## dudy80

Robbært said:


> 6 fans and case allow only mATX boards?


Theres a ATX version of the gaming edge.


----------



## encrypted11

@Sin0822, are you able to verify the memory topology of the various boards around?

For ASRock in particular, the Z390 Extreme4/Phantom 6, Taichi/Ultimate and the Phantom 9. Are they on the T-topology?


----------



## asdkj1740

AlphaC said:


> They use a UP1962 which only says that it drives two mosfets (https://www.upi-semi.com/en-article-upi-681-1847 , https://www.upi-semi.com/files/1847/ba4ca758-28a3-11e6-8889-c5d1c66ed1d0) so I would hesitate to call that doubled. The Z370 M5 has a heatpipe but it's basically the same as a Z390 Tomahawk . Should be fine with airflow , not sure about no offset and AVX. I've seen Tomahawk boards push i9 to 5.1GHz but that is in very light loads.


yes up1962 is a driver only and being used on the rest below m5, with the "FH"//"FG" marking ic.
but gaming m5 z370 is not the case. by checking the back pcb it is confirmed by the solder points' direction that the each phases are independent, unlike carbon/tomahawk etc.

z370 gaming m5 is a predecessor of z390 ace. z390 ace further changes the vrm controller and doublers and increase the phases count to 12 from 8. if we consider m5 z370 is priced fairly than ace z390 is not that worse. ace is not coming from nowhere afaic.


----------



## asdkj1740

GBT-MatthewH said:


> Designare same VRM as Ultra/Pro/Elite


the x8x4x4 is really good, some ppl need this for single gpu with 2*pcie ssd. 

i dont know whether this is good or bad, after gigabyte renaming/repositioning of different line up, even the highest end aorus xtreme does not support x8x4x4. seems gigabyte really position their lineup very accurately.



i really doubt the heatpipe helps transferring heats from mosfets to heatsinks... seems gigabyte desperately strike for not just current balacne on phases but thermal balance via this heat direct touch heatpipe lol.
but i think the thermal performance of vrm will be good anyways, the heaksinks look beefy while the pcb still got 2x copper which is unexpected. 

"Direct Touch Heatpipe
Direct Touch Heatpipe helps transfer heat from MOSFET to heatsink, also connects two parts of MOSFET heatsink for the best cooling performance."
https://www.gigabyte.com/Motherboard/Z390-DESIGNARE-rev-10#kf


----------



## GBT-MatthewH

encrypted11 said:


> @Sin0822, are you able to verify the memory topology of the various boards around?
> 
> For ASRock in particular, the Z390 Extreme4/Phantom 6, Taichi/Ultimate and the Phantom 9. Are they on the T-topology?


AORUS/GIGABYTE uses t-topology except on I AORUS pro (itx) which uses tabbed.


----------



## asdkj1740

porksmuggler said:


> I was certain that whole series of graphs was to demonstrate how power thrifty the EVGA Z390 FTW is, no?


not the first time....evga z370 has good mosfets and good heatsink....but evga simply locks the power...
no wonder why evga z370 on us amazon are on sales for months...


----------



## encrypted11

GBT-MatthewH said:


> AORUS/GIGABYTE uses t-topology except on I AORUS pro (itx) which uses tabbed.


I wish there was a rep button! :thumb:


----------



## asdkj1740

encrypted11 said:


> I wish there was a rep button! :thumb:


only four (if not 8) dim slots care about this. 2 slots are fine.


----------



## toncij

So what are the best boards atm? Aside from obvious Godlike that's way too expensive because of those extension cards.

GB having unlocked NVRAM is still a mistery tho...


----------



## encrypted11

asdkj1740 said:


> only four (if not 8) dim slots care about this. 2 slots are fine.


T tops have better memory frequency margins with all slots populated. The reason why commonly linked QVL sheets (Gigabyte Z390 Aorus Elite) have noticeably higher 4 DIMM QVLs over 2. The commonly linked Z370 Asus X Formula QVL (linked on hero's QVL if I recall) is another example.

If you'd like peaked memory performance, memory topology of a particular board matters too.

A brief explanation by MSI's Toppc Lin. (In Chinese)


----------



## swddeluxx

You think, using tabbed topology boards is better with two Ram Sticks?, right?


----------



## eric98k

TomsHardware: Supermicro C9Z390-CG-IW Review
https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/supermicro-c9z390-cg-iw-mini-itx-motherboard,5874-4.html


----------



## AlphaC

@ eric98k , the Pro Carbon result at Tom's Hardware is suspicious to me. Look at the Pro Carbon heatsink and the 4c024n specs and tell me whether you think that result is right for a Prime95 load...


https://www.anandtech.com/show/13468/the-asrock-z390-taichi-review/2


Either power reporting is wrong or this person's chip is really good:
<210W Prime95 on Taichi at 5.2GHz , 56°C with IR thermometer at front of board 


Spoiler













https://www.chiphell.com/thread-1924272-1-1.html




https://www.mobile01.com/topicdetail.php?f=488&t=5615878
TUF PLUS


----------



## Robbært

AlphaC said:


> Either power reporting is wrong or this person's chip is really good:
> <210W Prime95 on Taichi at 5.2GHz , 56°C with IR thermometer at front of board
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 228518
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.chiphell.com/thread-1924272-1-1.html


Toms VRM results are top of heatsink or paid hard, under 50C in 5GHz while they say board shutdowns as test start.
Chinese 56C link also comes with 97C in HWiNFO
While person with gun found 56C top of heatsink it clearly seen VR T1 97C in same picture he draw circle over VR T2 56C
This thread not needed if 10* CSD87350 would be able to stay under 60C in 200A load.


Spoiler















edit:
1. while looking closer at other photos, it seen, he measure TOP of second (smaller, iGPU) heatsink.
2. HWiNFO also show only 183A load 5.1GHz. 9900K eat 193-196A at 5.0. I think it had 100C thermal limit in BIOS and throttle a little as max CPU core was at 97C, 85-97C across cores.


----------



## GeneO

Shiftstealth said:


> toncij said:
> 
> 
> 
> No problems with a 9900K at 1.36V 5.2, AVXoffset 0, 4000MHzC17 RAM, 4.3GHz cache on Asus Maximus X Formula Z370.
> 
> 
> 
> Nice. Seems like the 9900K is super binned.
Click to expand...

I expect that means the that the 9700k get the lower binned chips.


----------



## Duality92

@GBT-MatthewH I'm really gonna put your little Z370N Wifi to the test with a 9900K


----------



## Penicilyn

Penicilyn said:


> I own the MSI MPG Z390 GAMING PRO CARBON AC. Picked it up yesterday with an 8700K that I'll exchange for the 9700K once it's available.
> 
> So far it's been a really nice board. Only one minor gripe with it so far. If you have an overclocking profile saved on the board and then update the BIOS to the new 1.1 version then the profile is no longer compatible, even if you've exported it to a USB stick. It complains that it's for a previous version.
> 
> Other than that, it's a really nice board. It easily put my 8700K to 4.7Ghz on all cores on an old Noctua and hasn't had any hickups.


I have to rescind the recommendation for the MSI board. The fan controller went insane and started revving all the fans to maximum and then no longer could control them in BIOS.

Have since exchanged for an Asus board and I'm much happier.


----------



## chowbaby

Penicilyn said:


> I have to rescind the recommendation for the MSI board. The fan controller went insane and started revving all the fans to maximum and then no longer could control them in BIOS.
> 
> Have since exchanged for an Asus board and I'm much happier.


Which Asus board did you end up getting?


----------



## AlphaC

https://wccftech.com/review/asus-ro...og-strix-z390-e-gaming-motherboard-review/12/


----------



## marcolisi

Hey guys, I am still waiting for the asus maximus XI extreme that I pre-ordered but I just received the i9 9900K cpu.

I own a asus z170 deluxe.

Do you know if the i9 9900K would work on the z170 deluxe?

If yes, Would it be worthed to temporary mount the i9 9900K on the z170 motherboard , or not?


----------



## porksmuggler

marcolisi said:


> Hey guys, I am still waiting for the asus maximus XI extreme that I pre-ordered but I just received the i9 9900K cpu.
> 
> I own a asus z170 deluxe.
> 
> Do you know if the i9 9900K would work on the z170 deluxe?
> 
> If yes, Would it be worthed to temporary mount the i9 9900K on the z170 motherboard , or not?


Not compatible, sorry.

Edit: More info, if you're interested.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGA_1151


----------



## tostitobandito

AlphaC said:


> https://wccftech.com/review/asus-ro...og-strix-z390-e-gaming-motherboard-review/12/



VRM's below 70C overclocked @5.3Ghz with a 9900K is respectable, and is about as hot as anyone is going to get them short of LN2. The Aorus Master runs really cool though, probably partly due to having more power stages to spread the load/heat to.


----------



## tostitobandito

AlphaC said:


> https://wccftech.com/review/asus-ro...og-strix-z390-e-gaming-motherboard-review/12/



VRM's below 70C overclocked @5.3Ghz with a 9900K is respectable, and is about as hot as anyone is going to get them short of LN2. The Aorus Master runs really cool though, probably partly due to having more power stages to spread the load/heat to. FWIW, in their 5.3GHz tests the 9900K was at 1.34v on the Hero XI and at 1.35v on the Aorus Master, so pretty similar.


----------



## HKPolice

GBT-MatthewH said:


> Designare same VRM as Ultra/Pro/Elite


Why such a medicore VRM on a $549 motherboard? 

I expected at least Z390 Master VRM.


----------



## AlphaC

HKPolice said:


> Why such a medicore VRM on a $549 motherboard?
> 
> I expected at least Z390 Master VRM.


 Not really a fair assessment since Thunderbolt costs money (around $60-$90 for a Thunderbolt 3 add-in card). I don't like that they made a new heatsink just for the Designare when they could have used the one from the Ultra without putting a bunch of plastic over it and saved tooling costs. Also the Ultra has a debug code LED.

"Z390 Designare costs less than half as much—it has a *$269.99 MSRP.*" - https://hothardware.com/news/gigabyte-unleashes-z390-aorus-xtreme-designare-coffee-lake-motherboards

I think tweaktown has the price of the Xtreme mixed with the Designare or there is some wrong information. It's also supposed to have Quad SLI but I'm unsure if there's a PLX chip on it and realistically I don't think you can do anything more than SLI.

Another reason why the Z390 Phantom Gaming ITX from Asrock is a great board, honestly.


----------



## GBT-MatthewH

HKPolice said:


> GBT-MatthewH said:
> 
> 
> 
> Designare same VRM as Ultra/Pro/Elite
> 
> 
> 
> Why such a medicore VRM on a $549 motherboard? /forum/images/smilies/frown.gif
> 
> I expected at least Z390 Master VRM.
Click to expand...

They have the wrong msrp. It's $269... As alphac mentioned the $549 price tag is for the xtreme


----------



## spunkey

So I bought a Meshify C Mini wanting to get a Gene, but it isn't coming to the US. Been reading this thread but still not sure what the best mATX board would be based on just performance. I have a DAC/amp so I don't care about audio, nor WiFi. I plan on just 2 sticks of RAM and no SLI. Does the Gigabyte z390m or MSI edge have the better vrm? Or since I'm ok with just 1 pcie slot and 2 dimms would something like the ASRock phantom ITX perform better? I saw a Newegg review that said they couldn't fit Trident z sticks in the slots without them being bent, and I have 2 sticks of Trident z ram right now.

Or is it dumb to pair a 9900k/nh-d15 with a mini mobo? I can still return the case and just go with a full size rig, the money isn't an issue, but I kind of like the idea of an matx build for a change.


----------



## VeritronX

If the asrock phantom itx board has a higher power limit i'll buy it, still waiting for info unfortunately.


----------



## GAN77

VeritronX said:


> If the asrock phantom itx board has a higher power limit i'll buy it, still waiting for info unfortunately.


Is this board about?

https://www.tweaktown.com/articles/...gaming-itx-ac-motherboard-preview/index3.html


----------



## marcolisi

porksmuggler said:


> marcolisi said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hey guys, I am still waiting for the asus maximus XI extreme that I pre-ordered but I just received the i9 9900K cpu.
> 
> I own a asus z170 deluxe.
> 
> Do you know if the i9 9900K would work on the z170 deluxe?
> 
> If yes, Would it be worthed to temporary mount the i9 9900K on the z170 motherboard , or not?
> 
> 
> 
> Not compatible, sorry.
> 
> Edit: More info, if you're interested.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGA_1151
Click to expand...

Thanks for replying!

I have read also the link and now I understand why it would not work.
Thanks!


----------



## encrypted11

VeritronX said:


> If the asrock phantom itx board has a higher power limit i'll buy it, still waiting for info unfortunately.


I'm waiting for my Fujipoly 17mK/W before I'll install it, don't have a spare proc  Hopefully @Sin0822 get the answers meanwhile. :thumb:


----------



## Telstar

AlphaC said:


> Any review of the Gene with VRM thermals?
> 
> 
> 
> You don't need a review to tell you that the ROG Gene with 10x IR3555 60A powerstages is overkill for ambient provided the VRM heatsink isn't a joke.
Click to expand...

I use an open bench case, with fans only on rad, therefore I'm looking for the coolest VRM solution without breaking a bank (anything above 350€/$).
More often than not reviews use a bench test. I have found so far only one review of the Gene on a dutch site that shows promises. The price point here is VERY close to the one of the Hero, so the Gene looks a no-brainer for me, as I do not need the extra slots provided by an ATX board.


----------



## larrydavid

Anyone know what the VRM setup is on the Asus WS Z390 Pro? Memory topology? It's either this or the Supermicro P9Z390-PGW, since I want a PLX chip and 4-slot spacing for a 2080Ti SLI setup.


----------



## Sin0822

larrydavid said:


> Anyone know what the VRM setup is on the Asus WS Z390 Pro? Memory topology? It's either this or the Supermicro P9Z390-PGW, since I want a PLX chip and 4-slot spacing for a 2080Ti SLI setup.


The SM board don't support SLI.


----------



## toncij

If you think PLX chip would magically run your cards or anything else faster, you're wrong. It's just a way to cheat the system into thinking it has more than it does. You're still limited to 16x on the CPU and 4x for everything else to the CPU at any same time.


----------



## AlphaC

No idea what load this guy is using for 5GHz, CPU temps are _really_ low for a 240 AIO (I would presume < 150W) unless it is out of the box with no MCE:

[email protected] on Z390 Aorus Master , CPU temp ~50°C and the VRM 30-32°C (yeh it is ridiculous , this should be around 50-60°C) https://www.geeknetic.es/Review/1529/Review-Placa-Base-Gigabyte-Z390-Aorus-Master.html
---> reviewer says 120-150W in overclocking...

5GHz on Z390 TUF Pro , CPU temp ~96°C and VRM from thermal image is 58°C https://www.geeknetic.es/Review/1532/Review-Placa-Base-ASUS-TUF-Z390-Pro-Gaming.html
(Something in Spanish about needing 1.4V to be stable)



> Here we can see well the maximum, minimum temperatures and also the voltages used to achieve in this stable 5GHz motherboard stable in the Core i9-900K.Use peaks of 1.44v, when in bios we had marked 1.4v, we also allow a certain state of rest in resting states to reduce temperatures and consumption.It oscillates between the 4.8 and 5GHz in these states with a high performance profile in Windows.


 5GHz on Z390 Gaming Plus @ 1.328V or so, CPU temp ~60°C and VRM from thermal image is 71°C https://www.geeknetic.es/Review/1537/Review-Placa-Base-MSI-MPG-Z390-Gaming-Plus.html

-----------

5K hours life x 2 times life for capacitors for every 10°C drop per Arrhenius's law ---> 8 hours a day for 3 years motherboard warranty is ~9K hours ; 24/7 is ~26K hours

105 - 10°C = <95°C for "casual use" 8hr/day at 100% load with 5K hour capacitors
105 - 25°C = <80°C for 24/7 load with 5K capacitors


----------



## marcolisi

Looking forward to try my new i9 9900k 

https://ibb.co/euijCf

on the asus maximus XI extreme , in the hope that it would be shipped to me soon!

I am still hoping that the nh-d14 would be enough 

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=95Ujni7-fVM


----------



## encrypted11

Dumped the rest of the Phantom ITX pics I've taken here

https://imgur.com/a/8qGXe5c


----------



## Cyph3r

New HWUnboxed video stating the Asus Maximus XI board uses a 4-phase VRM setup and that Asus is lying to their customers:





 @AlphaC - Any comment? I trust your judgement over HWUnboxed.


----------



## Nizzen

We need Elmor here 🙂


----------



## The L33t

What's the point? Even if it was true 8 phase design... the results speak for themselves, and that is what matters. Is it not?

For this price range the option to go with this vrm setup for such a popular board was an odd one to say the least. 

At the very least they should have added a proper thermal solution to aliviate some of the vrm shortcomings.


----------



## Raghar

Cyph3r said:


> New HWUnboxed video stating the Asus Maximus XI board uses a 4-phase VRM setup and that Asus is lying to their customers:
> 
> @AlphaC - Any comment? I trust your judgement over HWUnboxed.


It's very well done review that states facts. GB should get rid of that plastic above heatsinks. Asus heatsinks accumulate temperature and have problems to get rid of excess heat. And Asus VRM is hotter than VRM in lower priced boards.

(Now we need also comparison how these boards handle Linux, and W7.)


----------



## Cyph3r

Raghar said:


> It's very well done review that states facts. GB should get rid of that plastic above heatsinks. Asus heatsinks accumulate temperature and have problems to get rid of excess heat. And Asus VRM is hotter than VRM in lower priced boards.
> 
> (Now we need also comparison how these boards handle Linux, and W7.)


From my personal test it's just not true. 

I've had both the Gigabyte Aorus Master and Asus Maximus XI Hero. I wasn't happy with the Max XI, so I returned it and got the Aorus Master. I was far more unhappy with the Aorus Master so it's been returned and I'm going back to the Max XI Hero.

In a real world setup (i.e in a case with airflow), running an 8700k @ 5GHz 1.344v in P95 AVX, the Maximus XI Hero reported VRM temps of 53c-55c. The Aorus Master reported 45-47c. Yes the Asus board is hotter, but nowhere near to the extent that the video claims, which is why I've completely disregarded it. What I'm asking about is HWUnboxed's claims about Asus lying about the VRM setup.


----------



## Robbært

Cyph3r said:


> I've had both the Gigabyte Aorus Master and Asus Maximus XI Hero. I wasn't happy with the Max XI, so I returned it and got the Aorus Master. I was far more unhappy with the Aorus Master so it's been returned and I'm going back to the Max XI Hero.


Can you, please, speak more about?


----------



## chowbaby

Cyph3r said:


> From my personal test it's just not true.
> 
> I've had both the Gigabyte Aorus Master and Asus Maximus XI Hero. I wasn't happy with the Max XI, so I returned it and got the Aorus Master. I was far more unhappy with the Aorus Master so it's been returned and I'm going back to the Max XI Hero.
> 
> In a real world setup (i.e in a case with airflow), running an 8700k @ 5GHz 1.344v in P95 AVX, the Maximus XI Hero reported VRM temps of 53c-55c. The Aorus Master reported 45-47c. Yes the Asus board is hotter, but nowhere near to the extent that the video claims, which is why I've completely disregarded it. What I'm asking about is HWUnboxed's claims about Asus lying about the VRM setup.


What were your problems with both boards?


----------



## tostitobandito

Cyph3r said:


> New HWUnboxed video stating the Asus Maximus XI board uses a 4-phase VRM setup and that Asus is lying to their customers:
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6lAE3PgWoRc&
> 
> @*AlphaC* - Any comment? I trust your judgement over HWUnboxed.



We've been over this extensively already, and Elmor from Asus has chimed in. Please search this thread.

Yes it's technically a 4 phase but is still uses 8 full "smart" power stages on vcore in a parallel configuration with lower response times than doubler configurations. Performance should be at least as good as a board using similar components with an "8 phase" config using doublers to achieve that. Overclocking results with the board seem to confirm that. I believe Asus is using the same parallel config on all their Maximus Z390 boards, including the Apex and Extreme (which have more phases, but still no doublers).


----------



## Cyph3r

Robbært said:


> Can you, please, speak more about?





chowbaby said:


> What were your problems with both boards?


This probably isn't the right thread to post about it. I'll consider putting together a thread comparing the Aorus Master and Maximus XI Hero in detail (so I'll probably have to rebuy the Aorus Master again). I get very frustrated reading "professional" motherboard reviews as all high-end boards basically get 9/10 or are skewed in really strange ways (like HWUnboxed's VRM temps). Just between the Z370 Taichi, Maximus XI Hero and Aorus Master there are so many important nuances that never seem to be discussed unless you trawl through obscure forum posts where some weirdo has decided to put in a ridiculous amount of hours testing and confirming them (i.e me).

A quick overview of my main points of each board:

ASRock Z370 Taichi:

- Pokey VRM heatsink - no VRM temp sensor so no idea what temp it's actually running at.
- "Meh" memory training on the secondary ram timings with XMP enabled
- Onboard audio is poorly isolated (if you've got a good pair of headphones I hope you like hearing electrical interference from GPU load)
- Onboard audio quality seems to deteriorate with high overclocks. 4.7GHz 1.2v everything is fine, 5GHz 1.344v there is a "fizz" to everything - confirmed on my Philips X2s and Senn HD558s. 
- CPU power draw - I've spoken in depth with ASRock support and BIOS team about this. The Taichi would seem to report much higher CPU wattage than other boards. I had a few special BIOS versions made for me to test, and eventually we got the power draw lowered by ~20w or so ([Beta] 1.61	2018/3/8	CPU TDP watts reading correction.). However power draw is still very high compared to other boards, at 5GHz @ 1.344v in P95 AVX the Taichi pulls a whopping 240-250w, the Aorus Master only pulls 205-215w in the same scenario. Before the BIOS update, the Taichi was reporting close to 300w in this scenario. 

Asus Maximus XI Hero:

- Asus Armoury non-sense or whatever it was would insert itself into fresh windows installations which I hate - though I've heard you can now disable this in the BIOS. 
- The main reason I returned it - there was a very odd hard-freeze that would come up ~1 time every 24 hours. It was completely unrelated to what load the PC was currently under and it happened both at stock and OC. The PC would freeze and soundloop, with other PCs this would just continue until you did a hard reset however if you left it for 10-15 seconds, it would resolve itself and the PC would continue as if nothing happened. I've had it happen while web browsing, during a game - I even had it happen during a Cinebench test and the score was 100% unaffected which means the PC is operating as expected in the background during the "freeze". I contacted Asus support and got the most mindblowingly useless reply so I just returned it. Was it due to premature BIOS? Ram sub timings (I found out side that Asus does some pretty aggressive sub timings) - I'm not sure, but I'm now curious to get another one to see if I had a bad board previously or if there was some other explanation.
- Doubts regarding the performance of the VRM setup - in my own testing the temps on the VRMs were great, but there was and still is a lot of doubts in the air about the VRM setup. If I'm spending this much money on a motherboard I want a damn good VRM setup. 

Gigabyte Aorus Master: 

- AFAIK the Gigabyte board has 2 superio's to control all the fan headers. For some reason if I connected my fans to the headers on the second superio and set the fan curve to hit 100% RPM when running P95, the fans would run at full speed, but then randomly "die" and go to 0 rpm. They would then start themselves back up after 5-15 seconds and follow the correct fan curve as if nothing had happened. Didn't happen with the fans connected through the main superio. Tested with different fans (NZXT AER Ps, Vardars, Noctuas, Fractals) - same deal. I've got no answer for what was going on here.
- Gigabyte control center apps (specifically Smart Fan) - A big draw for me to the GB board was that you could control fan headers from GPU temps. I then found out you can't do it through BIOS but have to use the windows app which sucks (might as well use SpeedFan). But I figured I'd give the app a try... It's terrible. It has to calibrate the fans and it would get different calibration results everytime you ran it - and the 100% calibration would always be ~800-1000 rpm for some reason (on 2000RPM Vardars) and 90% would be like 1800 RPM. And then half way through the PWM range it would say 60% - 0 RPM. No gigabyte, running a 60% PWM signal does not result in 0 RPM, c'mon now. I got around the wonky calibrating by first setting the fans to run at 100% using the "auto full speed" profile - the fans would now calibrate properly and I could switch to manual control. However, even though I specified a fan to follow the GPU temp (which it could see in the app) the fan would never change speed no matter how I adjusted the curve/fan settings. After a few restarts the GPU temp option just flat out disappeared from the Smart Fan app so I uninstalled it. 
- The BIOS is not great. Version F4 is basically a crime against the tech world and is borderline unusable. F5 is much better but still not great at all vs say the Asus BIOS - it's at least usable. 
- "Meh" memory training on the secondary ram timings.
- Onboard audio isn't well isolated - even though they've put a great DAC in there, the isolation isn't great and you can hear interference from the GPU load. No where near as bad as the Taichi, but not as good as the Asus. 
- Weird frametiming issue in some games and benchmarks - for some reason the Aorus Master would post 400pts less GPU score on the Timespy benchmark than the Taichi or Maximus XI Hero (a 2-4fps lower average fps). It's because the frametimes are absurd for some reason the FPS counter in 3DMark updates very quickly, and it was pinging around so fast you actually couldn't read the number - why is the motherboard having any effect on the GPU frametimes? Tried numerous fresh installs, different driver versions etc, couldn't get rid of it. Went back to the Taichi and problem's gone - FPS counter is absolutely rock solid, correct GPU scores and no micro-stuttering. This is frankly unacceptable and was the main reason I returned it.


Basically, pick your poison. In my experience every motherboard sucks in some way or another.


----------



## AlphaC

Cyph3r said:


> New HWUnboxed video stating the Asus Maximus XI board uses a 4-phase VRM setup and that Asus is lying to their customers:
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6lAE3PgWoRc&
> 
> @*AlphaC* - Any comment? I trust your judgement over HWUnboxed.



It's clearly an attempt to garner more views based off a fearmongering preview image but his testing was based off thermocouples so it probably is correct as long as they were calibrated. I think ASUS should respond to this video as *A.* it's not my responsibility to go patrol youtube for misinformation since I don't work for ASUS *B.* Asus makes enough money as it is that someone that isn't elmor that is in marketing rather than R&D should have been on this youtube fanaticism against ASUS Maximus boards last month at the latest. Do they have a ROG premium? definitely yes. Are they 4 phase boards that are garbage? absolutely not.


For the B450 review he suggested that he was using Blender for testing (AVX). This time he said he is benchmarking / stress testing so I am unsure if it is a Blender workload.



I'm not sure where he saw ASUS writing it is a "10 phase". ASUS would only be lying to their customers if it was advertised as an 8 phase IR VRM or something similar and it didn't perform on par with the Taichi + Aorus boards thermally/OC. I don't like how he is doubling down on this concept because several other places have the Hero merely below 10°C more than the Master with the Taichi between the Master and Hero. The heatsink simply doesn't respond as well to airflow. Elmor has already responded in this thread explaining it was for transient performance with that given inductor + output capacitor setup.


I think ASUS R&D needs to look at the stock idle numbers. The board shouldn't be using as much power at idle (multiple reviews showed it), that's the reason why it is hotter.



The MSI Ace seems to perform decently well there (mainly due to the heatsink) but you need to take into account switching frequency as I mentioned before. The Hero and the Ace should be compared more thoroughly, the Hero is likely using 500kHz frequency while the MSI Ace probably uses 300kHz or 350kHz. To be honest though, the MSI with current split across 6 PWM phases is mainly limited by the rise time of the 4C029N. 

Anyone that purchased the Ace at launch day should get a credit card price match however, since it _already_ dropped to $250 (and it likely will drop more to $180-210ish once everything levels out): it simply is cheaper for MSI to make the Ace due to how cheap the Powerpaks are in bulk compared to powerstages. If you look at the Edge and compare it to the Ace , you're paying for a few more mosfets and different inductor + capacitor layout , power/reset/clear CMOS, ESS DAC (unlisted in the spec page) but in marketing section for audio, 2nd USB 3.1 gen 2 front panel header (fluff for most people) , better wifi module, Killer LAN (gimmick), and a heatpiped VRM heatsink with some RGB. If you look at the X370 Titanium you will see what I mean: at launch it was $300 and then it dropped all the way to $150 because it just doesn't cost much for them to make it.



They all use the same controller (except ASUS maybe , we don't know for sure) and for a phase to turn on within a IR35201 the minimum current is ~8A (see Table 25).

https://www.infineon.com/dgdl/Infin...N.pdf?fileId=5546d462576f347501579c95d19772b5




Also, Asrock has been caught with misinformation before on their marketing while putting "IR PWM" on their X470 Master SLI.


edit: also if all 3 boards had issues with audio noise / freeze / random fan issues it might be your PSU giving out.


----------



## Telstar

Cyph3r said:


> Basically, pick your poison. In my experience every motherboard sucks in some way or another.


This happens EVERY time there is a new chipset release. Need 3+ months for bioses and bugs to be ironed out. Basically we early adopters are the debuggers.


----------



## Cyph3r

Telstar said:


> This happens EVERY time there is a new chipset release. Need 3+ months for bioses and bugs to be ironed out. Basically we early adopters are the debuggers.


I'm talking about all motherboards, not just Z390 - I added my criticisms of the Z370 Taichi as well.


----------



## Cyph3r

AlphaC said:


> edit: also if all 3 boards had issues with audio noise / freeze / random fan issues it might be your PSU giving out.


ASRock/Asus has no fan issues

ASRock/Gigabtyte has no freeze issues

Asus has the best audio isolation from GPU load interference.


----------



## zGunBLADEz

AlphaC said:


> It's clearly an attempt to garner more views based off a fearmongering preview image but his testing was based off thermocouples so it probably is correct as long as they were calibrated. I think ASUS should respond to this video as *A.* it's not my responsibility to go patrol youtube for misinformation since I don't work for ASUS *B.* Asus makes enough money as it is that someone that isn't elmor that is in marketing rather than R&D should have been on this youtube fanaticism against ASUS Maximus boards last month at the latest. Do they have a ROG premium? definitely yes. Are they 4 phase boards that are garbage? absolutely not.


strix z370s rings any bells XD move a tier down once again XD
and they call this boards rog.

Im up for surprises when i finally shoot up that z390I >?

after what i saw they did on the CHVI topic elmor and the rest of his crew can keep their "WORD" to themselves


----------



## Falkentyne

Cyph3r said:


> This probably isn't the right thread to post about it. I'll consider putting together a thread comparing the Aorus Master and Maximus XI Hero in detail (so I'll probably have to rebuy the Aorus Master again). I get very frustrated reading "professional" motherboard reviews as all high-end boards basically get 9/10 or are skewed in really strange ways (like HWUnboxed's VRM temps). Just between the Z370 Taichi, Maximus XI Hero and Aorus Master there are so many important nuances that never seem to be discussed unless you trawl through obscure forum posts where some weirdo has decided to put in a ridiculous amount of hours testing and confirming them (i.e me).
> 
> A quick overview of my main points of each board:
> 
> ASRock Z370 Taichi:
> 
> - Pokey VRM heatsink - no VRM temp sensor so no idea what temp it's actually running at.
> - "Meh" memory training on the secondary ram timings with XMP enabled
> - Onboard audio is poorly isolated (if you've got a good pair of headphones I hope you like hearing electrical interference from GPU load)
> - Onboard audio quality seems to deteriorate with high overclocks. 4.7GHz 1.2v everything is fine, 5GHz 1.344v there is a "fizz" to everything - confirmed on my Philips X2s and Senn HD558s.
> - CPU power draw - I've spoken in depth with ASRock support and BIOS team about this. The Taichi would seem to report much higher CPU wattage than other boards. I had a few special BIOS versions made for me to test, and eventually we got the power draw lowered by ~20w or so ([Beta] 1.61	2018/3/8	CPU TDP watts reading correction.). However power draw is still very high compared to other boards, at 5GHz @ 1.344v in P95 AVX the Taichi pulls a whopping 240-250w, the Aorus Master only pulls 205-215w in the same scenario. Before the BIOS update, the Taichi was reporting close to 300w in this scenario.
> 
> Asus Maximus XI Hero:
> 
> - Asus Armoury non-sense or whatever it was would insert itself into fresh windows installations which I hate - though I've heard you can now disable this in the BIOS.
> - The main reason I returned it - there was a very odd hard-freeze that would come up ~1 time every 24 hours. It was completely unrelated to what load the PC was currently under and it happened both at stock and OC. The PC would freeze and soundloop, with other PCs this would just continue until you did a hard reset however if you left it for 10-15 seconds, it would resolve itself and the PC would continue as if nothing happened. I've had it happen while web browsing, during a game - I even had it happen during a Cinebench test and the score was 100% unaffected which means the PC is operating as expected in the background during the "freeze". I contacted Asus support and got the most mindblowingly useless reply so I just returned it. Was it due to premature BIOS? Ram sub timings (I found out side that Asus does some pretty aggressive sub timings) - I'm not sure, but I'm now curious to get another one to see if I had a bad board previously or if there was some other explanation.
> - Doubts regarding the performance of the VRM setup - in my own testing the temps on the VRMs were great, but there was and still is a lot of doubts in the air about the VRM setup. If I'm spending this much money on a motherboard I want a damn good VRM setup.
> 
> Gigabyte Aorus Master:
> 
> - AFAIK the Gigabyte board has 2 superio's to control all the fan headers. For some reason if I connected my fans to the headers on the second superio and set the fan curve to hit 100% RPM when running P95, the fans would run at full speed, but then randomly "die" and go to 0 rpm. They would then start themselves back up after 5-15 seconds and follow the correct fan curve as if nothing had happened. Didn't happen with the fans connected through the main superio. Tested with different fans (NZXT AER Ps, Vardars, Noctuas, Fractals) - same deal. I've got no answer for what was going on here.
> - Gigabyte control center apps (specifically Smart Fan) - A big draw for me to the GB board was that you could control fan headers from GPU temps. I then found out you can't do it through BIOS but have to use the windows app which sucks (might as well use SpeedFan). But I figured I'd give the app a try... It's terrible. It has to calibrate the fans and it would get different calibration results everytime you ran it - and the 100% calibration would always be ~800-1000 rpm for some reason (on 2000RPM Vardars) and 90% would be like 1800 RPM. And then half way through the PWM range it would say 60% - 0 RPM. No gigabyte, running a 60% PWM signal does not result in 0 RPM, c'mon now. I got around the wonky calibrating by first setting the fans to run at 100% using the "auto full speed" profile - the fans would now calibrate properly and I could switch to manual control. However, even though I specified a fan to follow the GPU temp (which it could see in the app) the fan would never change speed no matter how I adjusted the curve/fan settings. After a few restarts the GPU temp option just flat out disappeared from the Smart Fan app so I uninstalled it.
> - The BIOS is not great. Version F4 is basically a crime against the tech world and is borderline unusable. F5 is much better but still not great at all vs say the Asus BIOS - it's at least usable.
> - "Meh" memory training on the secondary ram timings.
> - Onboard audio isn't well isolated - even though they've put a great DAC in there, the isolation isn't great and you can hear interference from the GPU load. No where near as bad as the Taichi, but not as good as the Asus.
> - Weird frametiming issue in some games and benchmarks - for some reason the Aorus Master would post 400pts less GPU score on the Timespy benchmark than the Taichi or Maximus XI Hero (a 2-4fps lower average fps). It's because the frametimes are absurd for some reason the FPS counter in 3DMark updates very quickly, and it was pinging around so fast you actually couldn't read the number - why is the motherboard having any effect on the GPU frametimes? Tried numerous fresh installs, different driver versions etc, couldn't get rid of it. Went back to the Taichi and problem's gone - FPS counter is absolutely rock solid, correct GPU scores and no micro-stuttering. This is frankly unacceptable and was the main reason I returned it.
> 
> 
> Basically, pick your poison. In my experience every motherboard sucks in some way or another.


400 less GPU score?

Disable C-states.


----------



## Cyph3r

Falkentyne said:


> 400 less GPU score?
> 
> Disable C-states.


Why would c-states on the GB board cause frametime issues, but c-states on the Asus or ASRock are fine?


----------



## robertr1

Cyph3r said:


> Why would c-states on the GB board cause frametime issues, but c-states on the Asus or ASRock are fine?


Are you getting another Hero or sticking to the Z370 and calling it a day?


----------



## Cyph3r

robertr1 said:


> Are you getting another Hero or sticking to the Z370 and calling it a day?


I've got an order in for Hero on Amazon because they had it listed cheap. It's going to be a while until it's dispatch though.


----------



## Raghar

> Asus Maximus XI Hero:
> 
> - The main reason I returned it - there was a very odd hard-freeze that would come up ~1 time every 24 hours. It was completely unrelated to what load the PC was currently under and it happened both at stock and OC. The PC would freeze and soundloop, with other PCs this would just continue until you did a hard reset however if you left it for 10-15 seconds, it would resolve itself and the PC would continue as if nothing happened.


That's real bad, I use my PC as disability aid, and this might cause problems.



> Gigabyte Aorus Master:
> 
> - The BIOS is not great. Version F4 is basically a crime against the tech world and is borderline unusable. F5 is much better but still not great at all vs say the Asus BIOS - it's at least usable.


Yea, that's pretty common. They has been known for that for at least 20 years. Still, if I'd be assembling office computers, I'd prefer them over Asus.



Cyph3r said:


> ASRock Z370 Taichi:
> 
> - Onboard audio is poorly isolated (if you've got a good pair of headphones I hope you like hearing electrical interference from GPU load)
> - Onboard audio quality seems to deteriorate with high overclocks. 4.7GHz 1.2v everything is fine, 5GHz 1.344v there is a "fizz" to everything - confirmed on my Philips X2s and Senn HD558s.
> 
> Gigabyte Aorus Master:
> 
> - Onboard audio isn't well isolated - even though they've put a great DAC in there, the isolation isn't great and you can hear interference from the GPU load. No where near as bad as the Taichi, but not as good as the Asus.


I have the same problem on my Z170 Ranger. For some reason when I play, I hear from my M-Audio BX5v2 a bit of rumbling sound, which seems to be VRM from my GTX 660. Well I'm using BX only as secondary speakers. As main speakers, I'm using optical cable to connect my PC to my HiFi to prevent problems in case VRM on my MB explodes.

And after I had ear bleed from when I put my headphones into SB-Z sound card which automatically reset sound to default values without even asking, I refuse putting my headphones into anything that doesn't assume I'm putting in a 16 ohm device, and doesn't ask about ohm rating of unknown headphones. 

Well, obviously optical link is the best solution. But another solution is using 80-160 ohm headphones, which would reduce interference. Or using USB DAC and hope it has sufficient noise reduction circuits.

(Now I'm in stage: Isn't 4'' too little? I know BX 5 were too strong for gaming, but... ...4'' can't do 50Hz sounds. Yea using headphones with HiFi is overkill, but using HiFi speakers for acoustically correct reproduction of DSHK is harsh to speakers...)


But, it's kinda silly when user needs to use optical link to solve interference problems. That's kinda a waste of decent on-board audio.


----------



## robertr1

Cyph3r said:


> I've got an order in for Hero on Amazon because they had it listed cheap. It's going to be a while until it's dispatch though.


haha I'm in that wait list with you it seems (wifi edition).

I think I'm a bit burnt out of tinkering and being a beta tester. Asus should be the most plug n play at this point. The extra few degrees in VRM temps doesn't make up for the inadequacies in other areas.


----------



## asdkj1740

on reviewer perpective:
tweaktown steven has said the improved vrm of z390 taichi is not mainly because of using doubler over the last gen z370 taichi using parallel deisgn.
while probably the best mobo review site writing in chinese -- techbang has expressed parallel design in theroy can output the same current level given others things equal. 

on industrial perpective:
elmor (asus) explained why asus goes for parallel design on z390, and said parallel design is not weaker in terms of current output capability.
another vendor (anonymous source) shared the same thought about "doubling vs parallel". there are lots of factors affecting the whole vrm capability other than just comparing "doubling vs parallel".


i see no contradiction between third party reviewers and vendors, especially z370 taichi has already shown how strong a parallel design can be, so let jokers dance outside this thread.


asrock nickshih used to show up here talked about the design of asrock mobo, maybe we can get some idea from him if tweaktown steven would do us a favor


----------



## AlphaC

Can someone Russian translate this ? It's an i7-9700k on MSI Z390 Gaming Plus








(source: 



)


https://ru.gecid.com/mboard/asus_rog_strix_z390-i_gaming/?s=all
STRIX Z390-I , i7-9700k @ *5GHZ* in AIDA64 FPU = 62°C measured at front of board with NH-U14S (~1500RPM fan airflow)



> According to the results of manual overclocking, the operating frequency of the test processor Intel Core i7-9700K was 5000 MHz. To do this, we raised the voltage in the BIOS to 1.29 V and a multiplier to "x50". The temperatures of the cores during the stress test reached 92 ° C, but there was no throttling and the system worked stably. Recall that the critical value is 100 ° C.


https://ru.gecid.com/mboard/msi_mpg_z390_gaming_plus/
MSI Z390 Gaming Plus , i7-9700K @ 5GHz in AIDA64 FPU = 69°C measured at front of board with NH-U14s cooler (~1500RPM fan airflow)


> According to the results of manual overclocking, the operating frequency of the test processor Intel Core i7-9700K was 4,700 MHz, although in the BIOS we set the “x50” coefficient at 1.3 V. In the AIDA64 stress test, the maximum temperature of the cores reached 79 ° C at a critical value of 100 ° C, so there were no problems with the stability of the work.


Throttle?


* NH-U14S fan is 1500RPM similar to the NF-A15 Chromax. The CFM is derived from 140,2 m³/h --> for a 140mm duct it's about 500 LFM (linear feet per minute)


---------------------

Also doubling matters more for Powerpaks than powerstages/powerblocks because of RDS(on) and switching effects.


----------



## Robbært

AlphaC said:


> Can someone Russian translate this ? It's an i7-9700k on MSI Z390 Gaming Plus
> View attachment 229004
> 
> 
> (source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BC0VUdU3jbI)


top left: MOSFET 61C(69C OC)
next line: 55C (64C OC) coils
48C (52C OC) heatsink
right side: 31C (31C OC) chipset heatsink

youtube video main poster says: "no frills"



AlphaC said:


> Throttle?


screenshot show it was 5GHz at some point.

my 5 cents. 69C VRM and 52C VRM heatsink so I assume they know where to check temperature.
it can be they still had 200W package in BIOS or something since 70C is too low to throttle.
and it only 9700K (=8700K)



Cyph3r said:


> Basically, pick your poison. In my experience every motherboard sucks in some way or another.


tyvm, it was very informative post.


----------



## Falkentyne

Cyph3r said:


> Why would c-states on the GB board cause frametime issues, but c-states on the Asus or ASRock are fine?


Was discussed on the eVGA forums a few years back.
Also verified on several gaming laptops.
Basically, C states trigger some sort of ASPM power management on the PEG port, which decreases the graphics score.
Maybe Asus forcibly disables ASPM (bad design, disabling stuff without user's permission) while Gigabyte enables it.

On my MSI "throttlebook", enabled Cstates (C3 or deeper) causes a 600-700 reduction in Graphics score (not CPU score). Disabling cstates prevents that.


----------



## Cyph3r

Falkentyne said:


> Was discussed on the eVGA forums a few years back.
> Also verified on several gaming laptops.
> Basically, C states trigger some sort of ASPM power management on the PEG port, which decreases the graphics score.
> Maybe Asus forcibly disables ASPM (bad design, disabling stuff without user's permission) while Gigabyte enables it.
> 
> On my MSI "throttlebook", enabled Cstates (C3 or deeper) causes a 600-700 reduction in Graphics score (not CPU score). Disabling cstates prevents that.


Well neither the ASRock nor Asus exhibit the issue. Only the Gigabyte, and it wasn't a straight up reduction in GPU performance - it was crazy high frametime variance.


----------



## HKPolice

Falkentyne said:


> Was discussed on the eVGA forums a few years back.
> Also verified on several gaming laptops.
> Basically, C states trigger some sort of ASPM power management on the PEG port, which decreases the graphics score.
> Maybe Asus forcibly disables ASPM (bad design, disabling stuff without user's permission) while Gigabyte enables it.
> 
> On my MSI "throttlebook", enabled Cstates (C3 or deeper) causes a 600-700 reduction in Graphics score (not CPU score). Disabling cstates prevents that.


Ya, I don't see the point of C-states either for desktops. I couldn't read any power savings when idling with my UPS power meter.


----------



## tostitobandito

I dunno why the Hardware Unboxed guy seems to have such a hard-on for going after Asus. Sure, there are valid questions about the marketing language from Asus that I and many others have said they should probably address. However, none of that means the Maximus VRM’s are fake, bad, or otherwise inadequate for pretty aggressive 9900K overclocking (independent tests at up to 6.8GHz indicate otherwise). Seems like he’s just going for clickbait like in his initial video when he claimed the 4 phase VRM couldn’t deliver enough power and was the reason for LTT’s low temps.


----------



## porksmuggler

tostitobandito said:


> I dunno why the Hardware Unboxed guy seems to have such a hard-on for going after Asus. Sure, there are valid questions about the marketing language from Asus that I and many others have said they should probably address. However, none of that means the Maximus VRM’s are fake, bad, or otherwise inadequate for pretty aggressive 9900K overclocking (independent tests at up to 6.8GHz indicate otherwise). Seems like he’s just going for clickbait like in his initial video when he claimed the 4 phase VRM couldn’t deliver enough power and was the reason for LTT’s low temps.


Sure, I'll take the bait. I think its mostly because of the response he got from Asus fans, when stating basic facts about the parallel VRM topo. It's been similar on this thread, but its still worth pointing out. The VRM could and should be better, given the price point. Not that its inherently bad or anything, just not as good, objectively for enthusiast users.

If Asus had gone with the same design used on the XI Gene and XI Extreme, which they certainly could have done, again due to the price points, you'd see me rushing to their defense too, typed from one of several PCs here with Asus motherboards in them  but they didn't, they went with a parallel 4 phase, which has been done countless times before yes, but not really the best pick given the OC needs of the 9900K.


----------



## Alex11223

Raghar said:


> That's real bad, I use my PC as disability aid, and this might cause problems.


Well, it can't be a feature of this board 
Unless there are multiple reports about freezes on Asus z390, I guess it's just a faulty board and can happen with any brand.


----------



## Abaidor

So what now...I am planning a Gaming build in the next months and the Asus boards where on my radar but now..

I was actually thinking of the Maximus VI Formula but I am not sure what VRMs it is using? Is it the same as the Hero or something better?


----------



## porksmuggler

Abaidor said:


> So what now...I am planning a Gaming build in the next months and the Asus boards where on my radar but now..
> 
> I was actually thinking of the Maximus VI Formula but I am not sure what VRMs it is using? Is it the same as the Hero or something better?


The Maximus XI Formula is the same VRM as the XI Hero. It depends on your budget and what you're going for. Under 5GHz 9900K, no issues, but why spend extra on the Formula. 9900K at 5GHz, still not really an issue, depending on the voltage your chip needs, but again why spend extra on the Formula, go with something like the Taichi or Aorus boards. North of 5GHz, have a custom loop better than all the Air or AIO options, go Phantom Gaming 9, Taichi Ultimate, Aorus Master, or Asus XI Extreme.

There's lots of options, was there a specific feature/s you saw on the Formula you wanted?


----------



## Abaidor

porksmuggler said:


> The Maximus XI Formula is the same VRM as the XI Hero. It depends on your budget and what you're going for. Under 9900K, no issues, but why spend extra on the Formula. 9900K at 5GHz, still not really an issue, depending on the voltage your chip needs, but again why spend extra on the Formula, go with something like the Taichi or Aorus boards. North of 5GHz, have a custom loop better than all the Air or AIO options, go Phantom Gaming 9, Taichi Ultimate, Aorus Master, or Asus XI Extreme.
> 
> There's lots of options, was there a specific feature/s you saw on the Formula you wanted?


Well I thought of it somehow related to the Asus Rampage VIE that I have on my main rig + it has onboard waterblock for the VRMs (that are not that good after all) and it also has 5GB/s NIC. I am not going to pay for it just because it looks cool though when boards like Asus Maximus XI Extreme or Gigabyte Master are better boards. 

The build is going to be for gaming primarily (mostly my young son) and will be placed in game room (sort of) that the kids use mostly but I want it to serve as a backup machine for mine (see sig) just in case something goes wrong. That is the deal with my kid and that is why I want it to be strong and made by quality parts. 

So I want a top of the line motherboard. The Asus Extreme then is one option but the Gigabyte also has a really nice Extreme model with 10GB/s NIC + Thunderblot 3 + Extra card with fan headers. For cooling I will go custom with D5 pump, the best RADs I can fit inside a Phanteks Evolve X, an EK Velocity (that I want to test on my 7940X first) and a heatkiller RES maybe. This build will also get a Asus Strix 1080Ti OC with a full cover waterblock in the future that is now in my main RIG. 

I plan on networking everything at home with 10GB NICs in the future and connect them to a SYNOLOGY DS1618+ with 10GB NIC as well. 

So I understand that no matter how much I like Asus the Maximus VI Formula is not worth it and I should either go for the Extreme or get the Gigabyte Extreme which features wise is the best (the 10GB + Thunderbolt 3 are easily worth more than $150-200)..

For CPU I will most probably get an i9-9900K.


----------



## lb_felipe

porksmuggler said:


> The Maximus XI Formula is the same VRM as the XI Hero. It depends on your budget and what you're going for. Under 9900K, no issues, but why spend extra on the Formula. 9900K at 5GHz, still not really an issue, depending on the voltage your chip needs, but again why spend extra on the Formula, go with something like the Taichi or Aorus boards. North of 5GHz, have a custom loop better than all the Air or AIO options, go Phantom Gaming 9, Taichi Ultimate, Aorus Master, or Asus XI Extreme.
> 
> There's lots of options, was there a specific feature/s you saw on the Formula you wanted?


Is Taichi Ultimate a good pick for someone who wants a 2.5+ Gbit LAN?


----------



## porksmuggler

Abaidor said:


> I plan on networking everything at home with 10GB NICs in the future and connect them to a SYNOLOGY DS1618+ with 10GB NIC as well.


For this chipset, and your requirements, the Gigabyte Aorus Xtreme is likely the best pick. The Asus XI Extreme uses Aquantia, but its the 5G AQC111C. The Taichi Ultimate has the 10G Aquantia AQC107, same as the Aorus Xtreme, just for reference.



lb_felipe said:


> Is Taichi Ultimate a good pick for someone who wants a 2.5+ Gbit LAN?


Same line of question, if you're going north of the Intel 1G, the Phantom Gaming 9 has the 2.5G, then its those boards described above and beyond.


----------



## ArneR

Ok, I can't just sit back and watch anymore, don't take this as trying to entice the mob against asus or anything, but:

It seems people are afraid of calling it as it is to asus, they are using an inferior design. Why? Well, certainly the vrm performs plenty good in regards to temps, and has more than enough amperage to support a heavy overclock without too much trouble. But then again there is the subject of ripple, and the review stated than the asus board needed a higher vcore to stabilize a 5,1 GHz all core than the other boards. This in term means higher cpu temp, and for the most part that is what is important right? Whether the vrms between boards differ by 20*C under load is just not as important as they stay far below what would be any danger. But limiting the overclock because the cpu gets "uncoolable" is imo not acceptable. Especially at the price premium asked.

I would much rather have 8 interleaved phases than 4x2 parallell wired "twin 8" as Asus called it, simply because of the reduced vcore necessary. My particular 8700k is limited by voltage in my max x hero, I cannot for the life of me get it stable at 5.2 without dumping voltage into it, and I can't help but think it would be a little better if I got the max x hero wifi version or something with a real doubled 4 phase. Thinking I should sell this board and just get a aorus one and see if I can get more out of this 8700k.


----------



## Babel

I purchased the Maximus XI Hero. I'm considering sending it back before I start using it. Seeing how bad it is compared to the other boards.


----------



## asdkj1740

helped a guy who bought gigabyte z390 aorus pro wifi and 8700k and adata d41 3600c17 8g82 to get them work on xmp.
it just wont work with xmp on aorus pro wifi, no matter f4 or f6 latest bios.
maxing all related voltages out, still cant be stable on stress test, no matter enabling xmp or manually set to xmp rated spec.
finally i found that the xmp rated timing is too tight for the z390 aorus pro, when i loosened it from 17 18 18 38 to 19 19 19 45, then it is then all fine.

it is supprise for me to see gigabyte z390 aorus pro wifi cant work with xmp 3600c17. and adata d41 3600c17 is b die.
on f4 stock bios enabling xmp wont boot at all, on f6 bios it boots to windows but got me blue screen when i was running prime95 sfft.

btw, the cpu upgrade function on gigabyte bios (1 click overclock) seems to be implementing so good, i choose 8700k 4.8g, works great, voltages are fine.


----------



## kabes

Falkentyne said:


> Was discussed on the eVGA forums a few years back.
> Also verified on several gaming laptops.
> Basically, C states trigger some sort of ASPM power management on the PEG port, which decreases the graphics score.
> Maybe Asus forcibly disables ASPM (bad design, disabling stuff without user's permission) while Gigabyte enables it.
> 
> On my MSI "throttlebook", enabled Cstates (C3 or deeper) causes a 600-700 reduction in Graphics score (not CPU score). Disabling cstates prevents that.


Wanted to chime in and say that disabling c-states does fix 3dmark performance issue on my gigabyte z390 ultra board (I tried with and without). When c-states are on, frame rate is highly unstable and there is major stuttering (especially graphics test 2 on time spy). It doesn't make any difference on time spy extreme or any of the firestrikes though, just normal time spy. I also don't notice anything in games either. /shrug


----------



## Robbært

asdkj1740 said:


> it is supprise for me to see gigabyte z390 aorus pro wifi cant work with xmp 3600c17. and adata d41 3600c17 is b die.
> on f4 stock bios enabling xmp wont boot at all, on f6 bios it boots to windows but got me blue screen when i was running prime95 sfft.


is this dimm work in other motherboard?
how well this memory overclock in other motherboard?

cleaning dimm contacts with eraser seems to be most effective method, i would recommend to try it before sending your ram back (as incompatible).
1. you have to watch for no rubber pieces left after.
2. don't break small parts near contacts while doing this (there often small resistors and capacitors).
3. not bend your dimms much in process.
not use vodka to clean contacts as it not clean, there 96% alcohol for this.

i would recommend using an 1.2V memory with intel (as there some of them with broken memory channels (?by dimm overvoltage) at second market).

there very good program to test mem MemTest86


----------



## Amanbra

The Z390 i Aorus Pro.

they say it's a 6 phase board, if you look at the product page 5 of the mosfets are under a heatsink the 6th one next to the eps connector isn't... is this an issue? Should I be putting a separate mosfet heatsink on it?


----------



## DarkSnipa

asdkj1740 said:


> helped a guy who bought gigabyte z390 aorus pro wifi and 8700k and adata d41 3600c17 8g82 to get them work on xmp.
> it just wont work with xmp on aorus pro wifi, no matter f4 or f6 latest bios.
> maxing all related voltages out, still cant be stable on stress test, no matter enabling xmp or manually set to xmp rated spec.
> finally i found that the xmp rated timing is too tight for the z390 aorus pro, when i loosened it from 17 18 18 38 to 19 19 19 45, then it is then all fine.
> 
> it is supprise for me to see gigabyte z390 aorus pro wifi cant work with xmp 3600c17. and adata d41 3600c17 is b die.
> on f4 stock bios enabling xmp wont boot at all, on f6 bios it boots to windows but got me blue screen when i was running prime95 sfft.
> 
> btw, the cpu upgrade function on gigabyte bios (1 click overclock) seems to be implementing so good, i choose 8700k 4.8g, works great, voltages are fine.



Not really a surprise considering the PCB layout of the Adata D41 3600C17 RGB memory Kit and kits alike are using a newer PCB layout (ICs close to gold finger) which allows higher speed at the cost of tight timings and Gigabyte seems to have very poor support for memories with such layout even with their latest Aorus Z390I Pro wifi board it can only run kits with such layout with one dimm populated.


Interestingly I run into the similar problem as yours with MSI Z390I Gaming Edge AC on latest BIOS all my 3600C15 and 4600C19 kits do not work with xmp enabled regardless the CPU but going back to Z370I gaming pro carbon AC everything is fine unless a Coffeelake CPU is installed.


----------



## Robbært

DarkSnipa said:


> Interestingly I run into the similar problem as yours with MSI Z390I Gaming Edge AC on latest BIOS all my 3600C15 and 4600C19 kits do not work with xmp enabled regardless the CPU but going back to Z370I gaming pro carbon AC everything is fine unless a Coffeelake CPU is installed.


try to add dimm voltage, 0.02v or more to make it work
but it best to use 1.2v ram with intels


----------



## Abaidor

porksmuggler said:


> For this chipset, and your requirements, the Gigabyte Aorus Xtreme is likely the best pick. The Asus XI Extreme uses Aquantia, but its the 5G AQC111C. The Taichi Ultimate has the 10G Aquantia AQC107, same as the Aorus Xtreme, just for reference.


Soon I will be ordering the Case & PSU (first) so that I can design the loop (have some parts) so any MOBO/CPU purchase will take place last which means after Christmas....This I suppose will allow for sufficient time in order for the "picture" to clear along with BIOS updates and more feedback through owners threads..

I am not that fond of either the aesthetics nor the BIOSes of Gigabyte compared to Asus but this round their hardware looks to be better. Sad but true and its a fact that the Maximus VI line owed to be better on the inside.

Now with that said if the only compromises by going with the Maximus VI Extreme is the 5G chip along with "why the hell doesn't it come with a VRM waterblock that the cheaper Formula has" maybe I am willing to accept it if all else is great.


----------



## Abaidor

Now what is going on here? He mentions 10 phase and gets great temps and results on the Hero?????

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=391&v=C7lHP3_vsm4


----------



## vvoid

Robbært said:


> try to add dimm voltage, 0.02v or more to make it work
> but it best to use 1.2v ram with intels


The XMP profiles certainly won't work at 1.2V... (?)
Also, try disabling XMP and set freq, primary timings and DRAM voltage (1.35V) manually, leaving everything else memory-related on Auto. Does this work on the Gigabyte boards?


----------



## Alex11223

Abaidor said:


> gets great temps and results on the Hero?????


We don't know what was his test setup, OC etc., iirc HU had good temps in some tests https://youtu.be/6lAE3PgWoRc?t=1178

And there is no comparison with other boards.


----------



## Robbært

vvoid said:


> The XMP profiles certainly won't work at 1.2V... (?)
> Also, try disabling XMP and set freq, primary timings and DRAM voltage (1.35V) manually, leaving everything else memory-related on Auto. Does this work on the Gigabyte boards?


if he can't get it work at 1.35 or 1.4(1.5) XMP it worth trying to add 0.02 or a bit more is what i mean

as your question gigabyte have non-xmp (manual) memory oc since F6 (late october) bios


----------



## marcolisi

Do you guys can suggest a step by step overclocking of the i9 9000k on an asus maximum XI extreme with air cooling?


----------



## AlphaC

marcolisi said:


> Do you guys can suggest a step by step overclocking of the i9 9000k on an asus maximum XI extreme with air cooling?


 Just follow _der8auer_ 's guide linked earlier



Spoiler












---------------


As for the "4 phase" ROG VRM debacle I was looking at a recent review on hardwareluxx and it isn't bad even electrically. Although the discrepancy in voltage may be due to the difference in SuperIO monitoring of voltage as mentioned by elmor, I'd imagine it isn't very different given the power consumption.

https://www.hardwareluxx.de/index.p...izienz-dank-besserem-vrm-bereich.html?start=5


----------



## Robbært

AlphaC said:


> As for the "4 phase" ROG VRM debacle I was looking at a recent review on hardwareluxx and it isn't bad even electrically. Although the discrepancy in voltage may be due to the difference in SuperIO monitoring of voltage as mentioned by elmor, I'd imagine it isn't very different given the power consumption.
> 
> https://www.hardwareluxx.de/index.p...izienz-dank-besserem-vrm-bereich.html?start=5


what the point two taichi, one 1.184v, other 1.312?
their cpu not run with 1.184 in z370 or? i not get it.


----------



## lb_felipe

AlphaC said:


> Just follow _der8auer_ 's guide linked earlier
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=95Ujni7-fVM
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ---------------
> 
> 
> As for the "4 phase" ROG VRM debacle I was looking at a recent review on hardwareluxx and it isn't bad even electrically. Although the discrepancy in voltage may be due to the difference in SuperIO monitoring of voltage as mentioned by elmor, I'd imagine it isn't very different given the power consumption.
> 
> https://www.hardwareluxx.de/index.p...izienz-dank-besserem-vrm-bereich.html?start=5


I don't know English, but I understood he could achieve great marks with air cooling. For me, who wants a nearly silent setup, does make sense sticking with a NH-D15 or similar (Le Grand Macho etc) along a M11E? I really don't want bother with water cooling because I have never built a watercooled system (I know I can do it, but I am lazy).

What extreme air cooler don't cover the back IO cover in orther to keep the OLED display visible?

Is the MXIE's VRM better than others M11's VRMs?

I really think that with President Bolsonaro, the Brazilian Currency (BRL) will get sronger compared to the American Dollar (nowadsay ratio is 3.7 to 1, but I hope it'll get 2/1 or something like that), so price is not that concern, do you know?


----------



## Telstar

How does it compare the Gene to the Aorus Master? I assume that Gene, Apex and Extreme have a different, stronger VRM setup.


----------



## Alex11223

lb_felipe said:


> For me, who wants a nearly silent setup


Why do you want to OC then? It will be louder because of the more heat, the fans will have to spin faster.
Usually people don't OC when building silent PCs, sometimes even a bit underclock.


----------



## tostitobandito

Telstar said:


> How does it compare the Gene to the Aorus Master? I assume that Gene, Apex and Extreme have a different, stronger VRM setup.



I believe Elmor stated that the Apex has the same general VRM config as the Hero except it's got an 8 phase controller feeding 16 power stages (compared to 4 phases, 8 stages on the Hero). As for the Extreme/Gene I'm not sure if they use doublers or not but I believe they have at least 2 additional power stages on the board compared to the Hero. So maybe a "fat" 5 phase?


----------



## AlphaC

Robbært said:


> what the point two taichi, one 1.184v, other 1.312?
> their cpu not run with 1.184 in z370 or? i not get it.


auto Translated from German: _And the main reason for the differences is the built-in VCore under load. The ASRock Z390 Taichi predicted a humane 1.184V, and the Z370 Taichi with 1.312V saturated 128mV more._




Telstar said:


> How does it compare the Gene to the Aorus Master? I assume that Gene, Apex and Extreme have a different, stronger VRM setup.


 hardwareluxx hasn't reviewed it yet but I think they'll be relatively close with the Gene / Extreme doing better over ~280W due to the 10x 60A IR Powerstages even if they aren't doubled

IR3555 maintains efficiency for a wider range , up to ~ 45A each.

Apex has 16x 60A powerstages so it will likely be even better.


----------



## lb_felipe

Alex11223 said:


> Why do you want to OC then? It will be louder because of the more heat, the fans will have to spin faster.
> Usually people don't OC when building silent PCs, sometimes even a bit underclock.


I have built a lot OCed systems and all ov em are much quiet. If it is possible a OCed 9900K runs quiet, why not? Der Bauer shoud have made a very quiet 9900K + M11E + D15 system, by what I have got from his video possted by AlphaC.


----------



## Abaidor

Alex11223 said:


> Why do you want to OC then? It will be louder because of the more heat, the fans will have to spin faster.
> Usually people don't OC when building silent PCs, sometimes even a bit underclock.


You can overclock a alot and still have a really silent PC....you just have to invest in more cooling (i.e. big fat radiators with low rpm spinning fans). I know, I am doing it and my fans are running @ 450 rpm while my CPU draws over 400 Watt if pushed and that is without the GPU that is also on the same loop and overclocked (1080Ti). My PC is VERY silent.


----------



## eric98k

Buildzoid analyzes the ASUS Maximus XI Hero VRM to talk about the "twin-8 phase" design and what it really means


----------



## asdkj1740

eric98k said:


> Buildzoid analyzes the ASUS Maximus XI Hero VRM to talk about the "twin-8 phase" design and what it really means
> https://youtu.be/bLO-vYjJN-I


did he just say "it is cost saving"?
i am looking forward to see his video about m11a.


----------



## lionc

I assume the original Maximus X Hero (without doublers on the back of the PCB) then uses the same 2x4 Phase as the XI? Maybe that's why the VRM temp sensor is mysteriously non-functional?


----------



## zGunBLADEz

So where are the Asus reps?
Cost savings? This mobos are expensier than previous ones been more crappy...

I think im returning the Asus z390-I back to newegg

Bullzoid said elmor dont work for asus no more i wonder why lol


----------



## chowbaby

zGunBLADEz said:


> So where are the Asus reps?
> I think im returning the Asus z390-I back to newegg
> 
> Bullzoid said elmor dont work for asus no more i wonder why lol


I thought he said in the C6H thread that he left to do more of a product development job:

https://www.overclock.net/forum/11-...vi-overclocking-thread-3897.html#post27694604


----------



## lionc

Regarding the older Maximus X Hero (2x4 Infineon BSG0812ND), does it make sense to run these at 500 kHz switching frequency or does efficiency drop off a cliff?


----------



## voidcrus

DarkSnipa said:


> Not really a surprise considering the PCB layout of the Adata D41 3600C17 RGB memory Kit and kits alike are using a newer PCB layout (ICs close to gold finger) which allows higher speed at the cost of tight timings and Gigabyte seems to have very poor support for memories with such layout even with their latest Aorus Z390I Pro wifi board it can only run kits with such layout with one dimm populated.


I bought TridentZ 3200 CL15 B-Die for Aorus Ultra. Should I worry about this incompatibility?
https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820232388

Thank you for info.


----------



## The L33t

The GENE, Extreme and Apex are the only "worth" having from this z390/Asus lot. And even those would benefit from a proper cooling solution, not that chunk of metal.

The rest of the lot should not really be in the maximus range.


----------



## Raghar

lionc said:


> Regarding the older Maximus X Hero (2x4 Infineon BSG0812ND), does it make sense to run these at 500 kHz switching frequency or does efficiency drop off a cliff?


You shouldn't run MB on high switching frequency without reason. If your tests shows the CPU works better on high switching frequency, then as long as you don't blow up MB by running VRM too fast, it's fine. But frankly if CPU works equally well on 300 Hz as on 400 Hz then using 400 Hz is pointless and only consumes more electricity.

The problem is manuals don't state optimal frequency, or safe frequency ranges.


----------



## Abaidor

I smell incoming Rev 2.0 boards if this "issue" becomes widespread all over the Internet, sales tank and returns pile up at Asus home....
Well I am full of Asus products but they deserve some backslash to get off their high horse..


----------



## AlphaC

lionc said:


> Regarding the older Maximus X Hero (2x4 Infineon BSG0812ND), does it make sense to run these at 500 kHz switching frequency or does efficiency drop off a cliff?


 Efficiency probably doesn't drop off a cliff because switching times and the RDS(on) are both very low. However, if 300-400kHz is good enough then they likely won't use 500kHz.




eric98k said:


> Buildzoid analyzes the ASUS Maximus XI Hero VRM to talk about the "twin-8 phase" design and what it really means
> https://youtu.be/bLO-vYjJN-I



Buildzoid is sort of misinformed because in this very thread Elmor said it's the same components for both circuits (powerstage / inductor / cap) when I mentioned that concern about the scope shots.


_Elmor edited post_


----------



## KedarWolf

I have a Maximus X Formula which has a decent VRM setup. If I'm going to a mid-range Z390 board, is the Taichi the way to go or should I go with another board to do better than my Formula?

I'm already getting 5.0GHZ 4.6GHZ cache 4000 memory on my 9900k at 16-16-16-30 2T 4x8GB with really tight RTLs etc. at a low 1.43v Eventual, 1.2125 SA and 1.2125 VCCIO.


----------



## Raghar

AlphaC said:


> Buildzoid is sort of misinformed because in this very thread Elmor said it's the same components for both circuits (powerstage / inductor / cap) when I mentioned that concern about the scope shots.


What?


elmor said:


> Measurements were provided by our power team, same components in both cases except the topology. Dr MOS power stages are better in every way AFAIK, both in efficiency and turn on/off delay.
> 
> edit:
> 
> Correction:
> 
> Extended 8-phase - ASP1405 + IR3599 + IR3535 + ZF906
> Twin 8-phase - ASP1400 + SIC639


I managed to find elmors post where he clarifies stuff.


----------



## buildzoid

Elmor made an edit to his post about the parts used in those scopeshots the parts weren't the same: https://www.overclock.net/forum/27687198-post2683.html



elmor said:


> Measurements were provided by our power team, same components in both cases except the topology. Dr MOS power stages are better in every way AFAIK, both in efficiency and turn on/off delay.
> 
> edit:
> 
> Correction:
> 
> Extended 8-phase - ASP1405 + IR3599 + IR3535 + ZF906
> Twin 8-phase - ASP1400 + SIC639


So the extended 8 phase was on completely different FETs. The chokes are the same for both but putting the 400nH chokes that ASUS uses in parallel cuts them down to 200nH.

BTW. Efficiency at high Fsw isn't about RDSon it's about rise and fall times. Which the BSG fets are great at(probably why ASUS didn't bother with doublers on those).


----------



## porksmuggler

voidcrus said:


> I bought TridentZ 3200 CL15 B-Die for Aorus Ultra. Should I worry about this incompatibility?
> https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820232388
> 
> Thank you for info.


 No, I would not worry about incompatibility, there are plenty of b-dies on the that board's QVL. This issue is likely specific to either that sample or ADATAs topo used with the b-die on those sticks. Regardless, as with every motherboard literally ever, future bios versions always update memory support.


----------



## postem

Hi folks i have 2 questions.
Currently i have one 8700K @ 5ghz, dellided, 1.35v, at most running 65C.
Im using Asus Hero X for it.

1) Do you believe Asus Hero X VRMs can handle it in a stable way 9900K 5ghz ? Im probably considering dialing down AVX, but still, i dont need to do it right now, running 5.0 avx no issues
2) Does every ROG X / XI uses the same power scheme on VRMs? Looking at photos of Maximus Apex X, it seen power circuits looks like the same
3) The VRM heatsink on Hero X looks like a big chunk of metal. Since there is no vrm temp sensor, it can handle 9900K power?

About non AVX loads, how much current can we typically expect on a 9900K @ 5ghz maxed non AVX load?

thansk


----------



## Robbært

lionc said:


> I assume the original Maximus X Hero (without doublers on the back of the PCB) then uses the same 2x4 Phase as the XI? Maybe that's why the VRM temp sensor is mysteriously non-functional?


temperature sensor cost whole $1. they expensive.
@NamelessGF nono, it really cost $1, there some $0.80 and others $1.10, in Vishay pricelist
edit3: NTCS0402E3472 is $0.10, somehow I've found more expensive first :doh:



lionc said:


> Regarding the older Maximus X Hero (2x4 Infineon BSG0812ND), does it make sense to run these at 500 kHz switching frequency or does efficiency drop off a cliff?


if doublers are used then it work at 500/2=250 kHz
if you want to change working frequency by a margin you'll have to change some parts too video


----------



## NamelessGF

Robbært said:


> temperature sensor cost whole $1. they expensive.


Thermistor IC is not that expensive, less than <$0.1. the reasons you can't see them is HWINFO64 are: 1. ASUS don't want you to see them. 2. They didn't tell HWINFO64 how to read them (thermistor connect to Super IO chip, but HWINFO64 need to know which address to read them).

There must be a thermistor in VRM area otherwise the board can not control VRM throttling trigger. so, ASUS don't want to you see the VRM temperature.


----------



## Feklar

lionc said:


> I assume the original Maximus X Hero (without doublers on the back of the PCB) then uses the same 2x4 Phase as the XI? Maybe that's why the VRM temp sensor is mysteriously non-functional?


I have both the Hero X non-wifi and the Hero XI WiFi and I can read vrm temps on both using AIDA64 without issue.


----------



## porksmuggler

Feklar said:


> I have both the Hero X non-wifi and the Hero XI WiFi and I can read vrm temps on both using AIDA64 without issue.


We covered this a few pages back, but a recap. If your Hero X has the better VRM topo from the X Code and Formula, ASP1405I (4+2), 4x IR3599, ZF906, then yes, you can read the VRM temp. Every example I've seen so far of X Hero without VRM temp read out, is the original VRM topo, ASP1400BT (4+2), BSG0812ND.

Unless you are certain of your X Hero VRM being the lesser of the two and having the VRM temperature sensor, then please confirm.


----------



## Feklar

Are you saying that some Hero X have better vrm topography than others for the same price using the same model? Yikes. Was there a new revision? As for mine, it was one of the first Hero X available from Newegg when they were released. It's in it's box now, how would I check to let you know?


----------



## porksmuggler

Feklar said:


> Are you saying that some Hero X have better vrm topography than others for the same price using the same model? Yikes. Was there a new revision? As for mine, it was one of the first Hero X available from Newegg when they were released. It's in it's box now, how would I check to let you know?


There was a new revision, but the VRM change appeared independent of the revision. Supposedly due to supply issues, Asus moved up to the VRM topo from the other boards, then back down once resolved.

You possibly can see the PWM controller, either ASP1400BT or ASP1405I, without removing heatsinks. If not, then the IR3599 doublers will be visible on the back of the board, if its the X Code / Formula design.


----------



## EastCoast

porksmuggler said:


> There was a new revision, but the VRM change appeared independent of the revision. Supposedly due to supply issues, Asus moved up to the VRM topo from the other boards, then back down once resolved.
> 
> You possibly can see the PWM controller, either ASP1400BT or ASP1405I, without removing heatsinks. If not, then the IR3599 doublers will be visible on the back of the board, if its the X Code / Formula design.


This gives the term "lottery" a whole new satire meaning.


----------



## elmor

Alex11223 said:


> We don't know what was his test setup, OC etc., iirc HU had good temps in some tests https://youtu.be/6lAE3PgWoRc?t=1178
> 
> And there is no comparison with other boards.



The hardware unboxed test results are pretty much in line and paint a fair picture. At the same price point you'll have lower VRM temperatures on other boards. In terms of "stability" or VRM capability to overclock a 9900K to its limits, I've not seen any measurable difference between ASP1400 + 8xSiC639 and ASP1405 + 10xIR3555. More real world testing on the different solutions is really needed before jumping to any conclusions.




AlphaC said:


> Buildzoid is sort of misinformed because in this very thread Elmor said it's the same components for both circuits (powerstage / inductor / cap) when I mentioned that concern about the scope shots.



I received new information about the test scenario and updated the post. I apologize for any misconceptions that might have caused. The benefits are still valid, but the test scenario probably makes the difference larger than if all the same components were used.


----------



## sdch

elmor said:


> The hardware unboxed test results are pretty much in line and paint a fair picture. At the same price point you'll have lower VRM temperatures on other boards. In terms of "stability" or VRM capability to overclock a 9900K to its limits, I've not seen any measurable difference between ASP1400 + 8xSiC639 and ASP1405 + 10xIR3555. More real world testing on the different solutions is really needed before jumping to any conclusions.
> 
> I received new information about the test scenario and updated the post. I apologize for any misconceptions that might have caused. The benefits are still valid, but the test scenario probably makes the difference larger than if all the same components were used.


Can you comment on the Z390-I VRM in relation to its ATX siblings? Is it doing something similar, such as 3 "real" phases in a 6 "twin" configuration?

Also, best of luck to you post-Asus.


----------



## elmor

sdch said:


> Can you comment on the Z390-I VRM in relation to its ATX siblings? Is it doing something similar, such as 3 "real" phases in a 6 "twin" configuration?
> 
> Also, best of luck to you post-Asus.



I'm not sure, didn't test that product. Are there any pictures available?


----------



## postem

elmor said:


> I'm not sure, didn't test that product. Are there any pictures available?


 @elmor, so the Hero X is basically the same design (except better vrm heatsink and extra 12v input), but with doublers or its also running the same config?


----------



## Robbært

elmor said:


> I'm not sure, didn't test that product. Are there any pictures available?


so far two links: one, two


----------



## encrypted11

elmor said:


> I'm not sure, didn't test that product. Are there any pictures available?




















Appreciate your work on true ROG products, the last I bought was the M8I but Asus wouldn't build the ITX I wanted anymore.
ROG won't be the same without elmor seeding BIOSes!

Best of luck with your post-asus endeavours!


----------



## elmor

encrypted11 said:


> Appreciate your work on true ROG products, the last I bought was the M8I but Asus wouldn't build the ITX I wanted anymore.
> ROG won't be the same without elmor seeding BIOSes!
> 
> Best of luck with your post-asus endeavours!


Thanks! From what I can tell there are no doublers on there, but higher-resolution images would be needed to confirm.


----------



## Glerox

I'm really thinking about returning my Maximus XI Hero after having seen Buildzoid and hardware unboxed videos... I feel like Asus really made the Maximus Hero a mid-range board.
For around same price, other boards seem to have way better build quality and better components...


----------



## SpeedyIV

porksmuggler said:


> There was a new revision, but the VRM change appeared independent of the revision. Supposedly due to supply issues, Asus moved up to the VRM topo from the other boards, then back down once resolved.
> 
> You possibly can see the PWM controller, either ASP1400BT or ASP1405I, without removing heatsinks. If not, then the IR3599 doublers will be visible on the back of the board, if its the X Code / Formula design.


Is there a picture handy that shows exactly where to look for the PWM controller on the Max X Hero (wifi)? I have one and I do not get a VRM temp reported. I, and others, posted about this a bunch of times on this forum and on ROG back then, and no one from Asus would ever comment on this. The HWINFO author told me last year that Asus changed the VRM design and that the new design did not report VRM temp. Now that everyone is analyzing every component of the VRM on Z390, the details of the 2 versions of Max X Hero are finally coming out. If I have this right, the "original" Max X Hero VRM design did not report a VRM temp, then when they had a component sourcing issue, they temporarily started using the better VRM design that the higher level ROG boards had (which does report a VRM temp), then went back to the original, inferior design, which does not report a VRM temp. Is this correct?

I want to confirm once and for all which version I have, since the rev 1.01 marking on the board does not relate to the VRM design change (per Elmor), I guess the only way to tell (other than no VRM temp reported) is to look at the physical components. I just don't want to pull the heat sink or take the rig apart to look for the doublers on the back of the board. So if I can see the ASP1400BT or ASP1405I with a casual inspection, that is what I want to do. So if someone can post a pic of exactly where to look I would appreciate it. 

This whole VRM temp reporting issue with the Max X Hero has been bugging me since I realized others were getting a VRM temp reported, and I wasn't, and no one from Asus would comment. Then I noticed the thermometer they used to show over the VRM on the web page for the Max X Hero wifi just disappeared. What I don't get is if the original VRM design did not report a VRM temp, and only the interim boards with the better VRM did, then why did Asus advertise VRM temp monitoring in the first place? Here are the 2 screen shots I took of the Max X Hero wifi Asus web page, with the magically disappearing thermometer over the VRM. I guess if my board is one of the "original" Max X Hero wifi boards, and I am not one of the "lucky ones" that got the temporary better VRMs, I can't complain, other than about being mislead by a deceptive picture showing a thermometer over the VRM. But the fact that no one from Asus would own up to this bugs me. It also bugs me that Asus would change critical components on a motherboard, so they can keep shipping product, and then refuse to admit it. Reviews are meaningless if there is no way to know if the board you got shipped has the same components as the board being reviewed. And now we have a 4-phase VRM design being called a "Twin 8-phase" when its not.

I know this is yesterday's news, and most people here couldn't care less since its a Z370 board. It just leaves a bad taste, and now with all this controversy about the Max XI Hero VRM, I am seriously considering making the jump to Gigabyte and hoping I can figure out their BIOS.

Thanks


----------



## Feklar

porksmuggler said:


> We covered this a few pages back, but a recap. If your Hero X has the better VRM topo from the X Code and Formula, ASP1405I (4+2), 4x IR3599, ZF906, then yes, you can read the VRM temp. Every example I've seen so far of X Hero without VRM temp read out, is the original VRM topo, ASP1400BT (4+2), BSG0812ND.
> 
> Unless you are certain of your X Hero VRM being the lesser of the two and having the VRM temperature sensor, then please confirm.


Here is back of my Hero X. Purchased when it first came out here in the U.S. fro Newegg. I do get vrm temp reading. Not in the bios, but in Aida64. Not sure which topo this is though.


----------



## porksmuggler

SpeedyIV said:


> I just don't want to pull the heat sink or take the rig apart to look for the doublers on the back of the board. So if I can see the ASP1400BT or ASP1405I with a casual inspection, that is what I want to do. So if someone can post a pic of exactly where to look I would appreciate it.


I mentioned it to another forum user a while back and they were able to confirm the PWM controller, but honestly, assuming you have a normal size cutout on the back of your motherboard tray, you probably can see if the doublers are there. 

Spoiler alert, its highly unlikely you're going to see any. I sent you a PM about a week ago with a bit more detail also.



Feklar said:


> Here is back of my Hero X. Purchased when it first came out here in the U.S. fro Newegg. I do get vrm temp reading. Not in the bios, but in Aida64. Not sure which topo this is though.


Those are the doublers, you have the VRM used on the X Code / Formula.


I'm not quoting since the questions were to elmor, but the Asus Z390 I is not the same VRM as the XI Hero or any of the other boards for that matter. Please look at the images linked in the thread, and the list here: https://www.hardwareluxx.de/community/f12/lga-1151-mainboard-vrm-liste-1175784.html#z370

There are images in the last cell for each board on the list. The Z390 I is a 4 phase parallel, with 8 On-Semi NCP302045.


----------



## lionc

Just to add a datapoint, my Maximus X Hero has no VRM temperature readout and no doublers on the back of the PCB, so presumably the ASP1400BT + BSG0812ND setup.

One does wonder if it is a coincidence that the hotter running VRM layout doesn't have a functioning VRM readout. It'd be interesting to know if day-one reviewers got sampled with both VRM variants or just one of them...


I still wonder if it would make sense to run these at the maximum switching frequency but I guess that'd be too risky anyway, seeing how there's no easy way to keep an eye on VRM temps.


----------



## Feklar

Every high end board should have the capability to monitor those temps. These boards have overclocking features built in to the bios so temperature monitoring should be made available. It doesn't make any sense not to.


----------



## sdch

elmor said:


> Thanks! From what I can tell there are no doublers on there, but higher-resolution images would be needed to confirm.


Here are some photos I snapped. Let me know if you need a closer look at anything:

Front:
https://www.overclock.net/forum/27659616-post2196.html

Front (full):
https://www.overclock.net/forum/27660278-post2208.html

Back:
https://www.overclock.net/forum/27660896-post2215.html


----------



## elmor

sdch said:


> Here are some photos I snapped. Let me know if you need a closer look at anything:
> 
> Front:
> https://www.overclock.net/forum/27659616-post2196.html
> 
> Front (full):
> https://www.overclock.net/forum/27660278-post2208.html
> 
> Back:
> https://www.overclock.net/forum/27660896-post2215.html


3 PWM signals each one to 2x NCP302045, no doublers


----------



## SpeedyIV

porksmuggler said:


> I mentioned it to another forum user a while back and they were able to confirm the PWM controller, but honestly, assuming you have a normal size cutout on the back of your motherboard tray, you probably can see if the doublers are there.
> 
> Spoiler alert, its highly unlikely you're going to see any. I sent you a PM about a week ago with a bit more detail also.
> 
> Those are the doublers, you have the VRM used on the X Code / Formula.


Thanks and sorry about not seeing the PM. I don't get PM notices since the forum changed format. I will check for the doublers on the back, and the ASP1400BT. Buildzoid's video on the Max XI Hero shows its location on that board, which should be in the same general location. Its already pretty clear which version I got. 



lionc said:


> Just to add a datapoint, my Maximus X Hero has no VRM temperature readout and no doublers on the back of the PCB, so presumably the ASP1400BT + BSG0812ND setup.
> 
> One does wonder if it is a coincidence that the hotter running VRM layout doesn't have a functioning VRM readout. It'd be interesting to know if day-one reviewers got sampled with both VRM variants or just one of them....


When I first looked into this, I Googled Max X Hero wifi reviews and found 6 to 8 reviews with BIOS and/or HWINFO screen shots and none of them showed VRM Temp. IIRC, some people (not reviewers) saw VRM Temp in the BIOS and some didn't. Maybe an early BIOS vs later BIOS thing. What's interesting is that none of the reviews even mentioned VRM temps or whether a value was reported. VRM design topology and temps just were not a concern with Z370. I was advised by an expert here to just not worry about it. 



Feklar said:


> Every high end board should have the capability to monitor those temps. These boards have overclocking features built in to the bios so temperature monitoring should be made available. It doesn't make any sense not to.


Agreed. And if the original, intended VRM design for the Max X Hero did not report VRM temp, then why did the web page for the board have a Thermometer over the VRM (which is how Asus shows what areas of the board have temp sensors). I ended up sticking a temp probe up under the VRM heat sink and hoping it's somewhere near accurate. Pretty lame but all I could think of to do. 

The whole thing reeks. Asus should not change components critical to performance on a product mid production, not tell anyone, then refuse to confirm or deny it for a year. Raja was actively posting in the same threads and would not comment or even acknowledge the issue.

As I said before, reviews are useless if your board has a completely different design than the board being reviewed. How can a consumer make an informed decision when there are undocumented variants with major design changes?!?! I used an EVGA on X58 then Asus on every build past that. Between this debacle and now the Max XI Hero 4-phase VRM, I think it's time to start getting familiar with Gigabyte's BIOS. I can't trust Asus anymore. YMMV....


----------



## Glerox

Yup, so I returned my maximus XI hero and ordered a Gigabye Aorus Master.

I like Asus but this time, they really low-balled the Maximus XI serie...


----------



## toncij

Glerox said:


> Yup, so I returned my maximus XI hero and ordered a Gigabye Aorus Master.
> 
> I like Asus but this time, they really low-balled the Maximus XI serie...


Since VRM temps are fine on X Formula (Z370) for [email protected] and AVX 0, I somehow doubt Asus would go to be worse than previous series. 
While some Youtubers have expressed concerns, keep in mind they're journalists mostly, not electronics engineers and can be wrong in critics of Asuses choice to go a different path. Power delivery is not my expertise, but if Asus uses "parallel 4+4" to get better responsiveness (less latencies) there might be arguments in favor of that.
That guy from Nexus channel is learning fast and that one guy helping him (that analyzes PCBs) knows his thing so I'd rather wait for a comment by them, before making radical moves.


----------



## The L33t

toncij said:


> Glerox said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yup, so I returned my maximus XI hero and ordered a Gigabye Aorus Master.
> 
> I like Asus but this time, they really low-balled the Maximus XI serie...
> 
> 
> 
> Since VRM temps are fine on X Formula (Z370) for [email protected] and AVX 0, I somehow doubt Asus would go to be worse than previous series.
> While some Youtubers have expressed concerns, keep in mind they're journalists mostly, not electronics engineers and can be wrong in critics of Asuses choice to go a different path. Power delivery is not my expertise, but if Asus uses "parallel 4+4" to get better responsiveness (less latencies) there might be arguments in favor of that.
> * That guy from Nexus channel is learning fast and that one guy helping him (that analyzes PCBs) knows his thing so I'd rather wait for a comment by them, before making radical moves.*
Click to expand...

Buikdzoid already commented on this situation and this has been posted here a few pages back. But here it is again:
https://youtu.be/bLO-vYjJN-I


----------



## vvoid

Also, somewhat in Asus' defense, yes, VRM temperatures are higher in comparison to other mid-high end boards, but by no means are they too high. 85°C still is fine and no problem at all. I've yet to see examples where they actually overheated and/or began thermal throttling under heavy OC-load...
I think this whole VRM "issue" discussion is technically not that relevant after all, and, at least for most of us, the Hero XI would be just fine. What I have a problem with is the marketing bs, false advertising and steep pricing, which have no technical foundation at all, yet customers are led to believe it would.


----------



## Cyph3r

vvoid said:


> Also, somewhat in Asus' defense, yes, VRM temperatures are higher in comparison to other mid-high end boards, but by no means are they too high. 85°C still is fine and no problem at all. I've yet to see examples where they actually overheated and/or began thermal throttling under heavy OC-load...
> I think this whole VRM "issue" discussion is technically not that relevant after all, and, at least for most of us, the Hero XI would be just fine. What I have a problem with is the marketing bs, false advertising and steep pricing, which have no technical foundation at all, yet customers are led to believe it would.


I think that'st he problem most people are having with this. The Max XI Hero is a premium board (more expensive than the Aorus Master in the UK at least) but has lack of features and components in comparison. Plus the false advertising.

If the Maximus XI Hero was £200-220 and the Code/Formula had upgraded VRM circuitry for £300-£360 then no one would have a problem because you'd be getting value for money.

Even though its actually unlikely to cause any problems, I still don't think anyone should buy the Maximus XI Hero/Code/Formula otherwise Asus will keep thinking they can charge this ridiculous premium for essentially mid-range boards.


----------



## cletus-cassidy

Cyph3r said:


> vvoid said:
> 
> 
> 
> Also, somewhat in Asus' defense, yes, VRM temperatures are higher in comparison to other mid-high end boards, but by no means are they too high. 85°C still is fine and no problem at all. I've yet to see examples where they actually overheated and/or began thermal throttling under heavy OC-load...
> I think this whole VRM "issue" discussion is technically not that relevant after all, and, at least for most of us, the Hero XI would be just fine. What I have a problem with is the marketing bs, false advertising and steep pricing, which have no technical foundation at all, yet customers are led to believe it would.
> 
> 
> 
> I think that'st he problem most people are having with this. The Max XI Hero is a premium board (more expensive than the Aorus Master in the UK at least) but has lack of features and components in comparison. Plus the false advertising.
> 
> If the Maximus XI Hero was £200-220 and the Code/Formula had upgraded VRM circuitry for £300-£360 then no one would have a problem because you'd be getting value for money.
> 
> Even though its actually unlikely to cause any problems, I still don't think anyone should buy the Maximus XI Hero/Code/Formula otherwise Asus will keep thinking they can charge this ridiculous premium for essentially mid-range boards.
Click to expand...

+1000

You hit the nail on the head. This would be fine on a lower end board or if it wasn’t marketed in a shady manner or didn’t cost $300. It feels distinctly like Asus are cutting costs and riding on their reputation and that buyers won’t do their diligence this time around. 

As a former Maximus owner I voted with my wallet and cancelled my Maximus XI Hero order and went with the Aorus Master.


----------



## Alex11223

Which features it lacks comparing to other boards?

For example, Asus UEFI seems to be considered the best. Also I think some people said it has better audio.

But yeah, Asus products always were more expensive than others.


----------



## Cyph3r

Alex11223 said:


> Which features it lacks comparing to other boards?
> 
> For example, Asus UEFI seems to be considered the best.
> 
> But yeah, Asus products always were more expensive than others.


The Asus bios is nice - but it's just a convenience and certainly doesn't warrant the premium. Basically everything the Asus bios has, so does ASRock, MSI and Gigabyte - but it's just not laid out as nicely. 

In the UK the Aorus Master can be found for £260-£274 and the Max XI Here is £296.

The Aorus Master has a far far better VRM setup, additional USB ports with voltage compensation, better on board audio, thermal backplate and some other bits and bobs.

The Max XI Hero has... ermm, a nice bios and a higher price? Everything else is worse.


----------



## The L33t

A nice bios is nice, but once you dial-in your overclock.. It's of "no use" anymore.

And let's not confuse nice looking and organized bios with a good one, I had a X399 Zenith and that never worked as intended. Full of bugs and features that never worked at all. A 600€ board... Many complaints on the AMD section about it... I gave up and returned it to Amazon.


----------



## GAN77

Feklar said:


> Here is back of my Hero X. Purchased when it first came out here in the U.S. fro Newegg. I do get vrm temp reading. Not in the bios, but in Aida64. Not sure which topo this is though.


VRM as Code 10


----------



## PuD

Cyph3r said:


> ...Gigabyte Aorus Master:
> 
> - AFAIK the Gigabyte board has 2 superio's to control all the fan headers. For some reason if I connected my fans to the headers on the second superio and set the fan curve to hit 100% RPM when running P95, the fans would run at full speed, but then randomly "die" and go to 0 rpm. They would then start themselves back up after 5-15 seconds and follow the correct fan curve as if nothing had happened. Didn't happen with the fans connected through the main superio. Tested with different fans (NZXT AER Ps, Vardars, Noctuas, Fractals) - same deal. I've got no answer for what was going on here.
> ...



Hello to all, new user, but a lot of "lurking" in this thread. I've just bought an Aorus Master with a 9600k (waiting price down). Pretty good and happy with it, but I found the same problem too. 

What I noticed, however, is that this behavior occurs only when in p95 a thread got in error (one core stop to work, overclocking not stable, voltage too low) and repeats itself every time a new thread fails.


Also for me the "Smart Fan 5" and generally all the apps seem incomplete software or with several sometimes annoying bugs; such as self-calibration or the choice of temperature sensor that can not be changed.
I hope for some improvement in the future.


----------



## Robbært

toncij said:


> Since VRM temps are fine on X Formula (Z370) for [email protected] and AVX 0, I somehow doubt Asus would go to be worse than previous series.
> While some Youtubers have expressed concerns, keep in mind they're journalists mostly, not electronics engineers and can be wrong in critics of Asuses choice to go a different path. Power delivery is not my expertise, but if Asus uses "parallel 4+4" to get better responsiveness (less latencies) there might be arguments in favor of that.
> That guy from Nexus channel is learning fast and that one guy helping him (that analyzes PCBs) knows his thing so I'd rather wait for a comment by them, before making radical moves.


still, 114C screenshot. (can it be unequal DrMOS in "twin" pair?).
most of motherboard manufactures make videocards too - it huge proof, they can make quality VRM.
z370/390 is for overclocking *only*, they can put casual vrm in B360 or H3-something.


----------



## Abaidor

I really wonder what were they thinking when they designed the Formula....the only thing that I can suppose is that it handles VRM temps better while being placed in a watercooled system that might have less airflow but for the price this is all that you get and it could be dealt with through other means (better heatsinkgs). Ah, and it looks great, I'll give them that and looking like the Rampage VIE may make some people believe it "oozes" quality....and power.....yeah right...


Even the Maximus XI Extreme lacks a lot compared to the Gigabyte Aorus Extreme in features and in hardware design:

The Aorus Extreme might be expensive but you get:

-10GB NIC
-Thunderbolt 3
-2X USB Type C connectors at the back
-Better audio (looks like although Asus has a tradition in audio so I reserve judgment here)
-OC Panel with 8X PWM fan connectors 
-RGB Controller that also serves as a fan controller with 8X ports (for addressable leds too). In comparison the extra Aura Controller costs over 100 Euros
-Better VRM cooling and backplate cooling
-Metal angled 24-pin connector

Yes the BIOS is not better but as mentioned above it has everything too and I guess they are improving fast too so the gap might close sooner than later. 

I am a heavy Asus fan/user and all my PCs use Asus boards but this time I might switch for my upcoming gaming build.


----------



## Cyph3r

PuD said:


> Hello to all, new user, but a lot of "lurking" in this thread. I've just bought an Aorus Master with a 9600k (waiting price down). Pretty good and happy with it, but I found the same problem too.
> 
> What I noticed, however, is that this behavior occurs only when in p95 a thread got in error (one core stop to work, overclocking not stable, voltage too low) and repeats itself every time a new thread fails.
> 
> 
> Also for me the "Smart Fan 5" and generally all the apps seem incomplete software or with several sometimes annoying bugs; such as self-calibration or the choice of temperature sensor that can not be changed.
> I hope for some improvement in the future.


I had this problem even though everything was completely stable, no threads would fail but the fans would still die.
@GBT-MatthewH - someone else reporting the same issue I had. Was there any news on getting this resolved?


----------



## toncij

The L33t said:


> Buikdzoid already commented on this situation and this has been posted here a few pages back. But here it is again:
> https://youtu.be/bLO-vYjJN-I


Thanks for that.

Valid points tho. So, what about MSI? Seems they got it right with Godlike?



Abaidor said:


> I really wonder what were they thinking when they designed the Formula....the only thing that I can suppose is that it handles VRM temps better while being placed in a watercooled system that might have less airflow but for the price this is all that you get and it could be dealt with through other means (better heatsinkgs). Ah, and it looks great, I'll give them that and looking like the Rampage VIE may make some people believe it "oozes" quality....and power.....yeah right...
> 
> 
> Even the Maximus XI Extreme lacks a lot compared to the Gigabyte Aorus Extreme in features and in hardware design:
> 
> The Aorus Extreme might be expensive but you get:
> 
> -10GB NIC
> -Thunderbolt 3
> -2X USB Type C connectors at the back
> -Better audio (looks like although Asus has a tradition in audio so I reserve judgment here)
> -OC Panel with 8X PWM fan connectors
> -RGB Controller that also serves as a fan controller with 8X ports (for addressable leds too). In comparison the extra Aura Controller costs over 100 Euros
> -Better VRM cooling and backplate cooling
> -Metal angled 24-pin connector
> 
> Yes the BIOS is not better but as mentioned above it has everything too and I guess they are improving fast too so the gap might close sooner than later.
> 
> I am a heavy Asus fan/user and all my PCs use Asus boards but this time I might switch for my upcoming gaming build.


Extreme is nowhere to be found to be bought so...


----------



## Alex11223

Cyph3r said:


> The Aorus Master has a far far better VRM setup, additional USB ports with voltage compensation, *better on board audio*, thermal backplate and some other bits and bobs.


I thought you said it was bad?


Cyph3r said:


> Gigabyte Aorus Master:
> - Onboard audio isn't well isolated - even though they've put a great DAC in there, the isolation isn't great and you can hear interference from the GPU load. No where near as bad as the Taichi, but not as good as the Asus.



Also besides OC afaik Asus has better fan control, both in BIOS and in Windows software.


----------



## Cyph3r

Alex11223 said:


> I thought you said it was bad?
> 
> 
> 
> Also besides OC afaik Asus has better fan control, both in BIOS and in Windows software.


Better from a DAC stand point - I've re bought both the Max XI hero and Master boards to get a side by side comparison of the isolation quality (and some other things).

Yeah that fan control on the Gigabyte kind of sucks - see the issue about the fans dying randomly.


----------



## The L33t

The problem is value as some have pointed, the understand of the branding and positioning on the Z390 offer spectrum. Maybe this vrm would be OK for a Strix/Deluxe?... Probably. 

Folks expected a VRM with a bit of an overkill situation at this price range. They did it with the Hero on the AMD side and that paid dividends.

Asus users buying ROG boards usually are ok with paying more for the privilege(rog tax) but skimping on the vrm leaves a bad taste in the mouth. 

Yes, it's sufficient with proper cooling but sufficient is not what most expect from a ROG Maximus board, much less the Formula at an even higher price point! 

I won't beat this dead horse anymore. What's done is done, hopefully they will do better next time.


----------



## Babel

I'm really on the fence about keeping the Maximus XI board. I Just got it today. I ordered it before the in depth videos was published. I paid premium for a motherboard for the first time and I ended up picking the worst of the lot.


----------



## Alex11223

I wouldn't say it's the worst... Looks like they all suck at something


----------



## Stockman

Returned the Maximus Hero XI and exchanged for Aorus Master this weekend. I'm in the camp that we're not getting our money's worth with the Hero XI - just my opinion.

Only had about 4 hours to test yesterday, but the Aorus Master offered some interesting OC results with my 9700k vs. the Hero XI. Everything else (hardware-wise) was the same except the XMP profile. Gigabyte BIOS XMP gets my 2x 8GB Tridentz 3200 (B-die) F4-3200C14D-16GTZSK to 3200MHz 14-14-14-34 no problem. The Maximus XI on the other hand has a second XMP profile that resulted in the same RAM frequency and timings but was somehow "ASUS optimized". Not sure what else this changed and if this difference helps explain my results outlined below.

AIDA64 stress test for 30 min @ 5.3Ghz.

Hero XI: 1.38V was required to hit 5.3GHz. Max package CPU temp was 88C.
Aorus Master: 1.33 was required to hit 5.3GHz. Max package CPU temp was 77C. So Aorus Master VRM clearly wins.
I realize the Vcore readings can vary per manufacture/board, but the lower core temp is clearly a win.

Now here's the weird part. I was able to hit 5.4GHz "stable" on the Hero XI running AIDA64 stress for 30 min @ 1.385.
The Aorus Master will boot to windows @ 5.4GHz, but crashes immediately on any stress test or even when loading a game - no matter how much voltage I throw at it/LLC level.

So the Aorus Master is clearly more capable of the 5.3GHz OC, but completely fails @ 5.4GHz. And the Hero XI ran a hotter 5.3GHz but was stable @ 5.4GHz. What gives??

Other impressions of Aorus Master:
I'm also experiencing the audio shielding problem pointed out by @Cyph3r. It's an absolute shame. Can't believe Gigabyte screwed this up on a higher end board. Is there a way to self-repair this?
I have no problems navigating and using the Gigabyte F5 bios. Took me about 30 minutes to find out where everything was and I was good to go. I find it no more difficult to use than the ASUS bios - again, my opinion.


----------



## Robbært

Stockman said:


> The Aorus Master will boot to windows @ 5.4GHz, but crashes immediately on any stress test or even when loading a game - no matter how much voltage I throw at it/LLC level.


try this option
try 5.4 with less memory oc or with more memory voltage (have to set manually)


----------



## Cyph3r

Stockman said:


> Returned the Maximus Hero XI and exchanged for Aorus Master this weekend. I'm in the camp that we're not getting our money's worth with the Hero XI - just my opinion.
> 
> Only had about 4 hours to test yesterday, but the Aorus Master offered some interesting OC results with my 9700k vs. the Hero XI. Everything else (hardware-wise) was the same except the XMP profile. Gigabyte BIOS XMP gets my 2x 8GB Tridentz 3200 (B-die) F4-3200C14D-16GTZSK to 3200MHz 14-14-14-34 no problem. The Maximus XI on the other hand has a second XMP profile that resulted in the same RAM frequency and timings but was somehow "ASUS optimized". Not sure what else this changed and if this difference helps explain my results outlined below.
> 
> AIDA64 stress test for 30 min @ 5.3Ghz.
> 
> Hero XI: 1.38V was required to hit 5.3GHz. Max package CPU temp was 88C.
> Aorus Master: 1.33 was required to hit 5.3GHz. Max package CPU temp was 77C. So Aorus Master VRM clearly wins.
> I realize the Vcore readings can vary per manufacture/board, but the lower core temp is clearly a win.
> 
> Now here's the weird part. I was able to hit 5.4GHz "stable" on the Hero XI running AIDA64 stress for 30 min @ 1.385.
> The Aorus Master will boot to windows @ 5.4GHz, but crashes immediately on any stress test or even when loading a game - no matter how much voltage I throw at it/LLC level.
> 
> So the Aorus Master is clearly more capable of the 5.3GHz OC, but completely fails @ 5.4GHz. And the Hero XI ran a hotter 5.3GHz but was stable @ 5.4GHz. What gives??
> 
> Other impressions of Aorus Master:
> I'm also experiencing the audio shielding problem pointed out by @Cyph3r. It's an absolute shame. Can't believe Gigabyte screwed this up on a higher end board. Is there a way to self-repair this?
> I have no problems navigating and using the Gigabyte F5 bios. Took me about 30 minutes to find out where everything was and I was good to go. I find it no more difficult to use than the ASUS bios - again, my opinion.


Yep - both Guru3D and Hardwareluxx reported a similar 100MHz discrepancy in max overclocks vs the Maximus XI and Aorus Master. 

Regarding the audio shielding issue, well at least I'm not the only person experiencing that. Do you recall having the audio shielding issue on the Maximus XI? Because I don't... It's not really something you can resolve yourself unfortunately. 

It's so frustrating that every board does something better than the other one - but no single board does everything right. It's not that bloody hard.


----------



## toncij

So, all about Aorus, but what about MSI boards? Godlike any good (ignore the price)?


----------



## Raghar

Stockman said:


> Other impressions of Aorus Master:
> I'm also experiencing the audio shielding problem pointed out by @Cyph3r. It's an absolute shame. Can't believe Gigabyte screwed this up on a higher end board. Is there a way to self-repair this?


FiiO D03K TAISHAN

It's kinda cheap, and does its job right.

Also you can try grounding your case, which might cause problems when there is lightning storm nearby in case you have PC behind some surge protection.


----------



## et7878789

ROG MB does not have a complete temperature sensor. It's really bad. 
It can only be replaced with T-sensor.

However, ROG's UEFI BIOS and desktop software are really good.

Like AI SUITE 3 and AURA's RGB, I really like the (FAN Xpert 4) Q fan function.

It can select three temperatures as a fan control reference based on the temperature sensor provided by the motherboard.

Even GPU temperature can be used as a control option. (limits ASUS graphics card or any VGA flash to ASUS VBIOS)









The audio software Sonic Studio 3 is also very useful, perfect for game sound effects or automatic switching of multiple speakers.

These softwares are so good that it's hard to get used to it without it.


Maybe..

Maybe....

ROG VRM can be configured boldly because ASUS has a small fan kit?









Or EK Monoblock liquid cooling solution for ROG MB(CPU+VRM)?









Or ASUS new product "ROG RYUJIN AIO" has a fan to cool the VRM?

























So we speculate that ASUS believes that the power supply signal is more important than the VRM temperature.

Maybe the CPU temperature limit will limit you overclock before the power reaches the VRM limit?


----------



## GTANY

Stockman said:


> Returned the Maximus Hero XI and exchanged for Aorus Master this weekend. I'm in the camp that we're not getting our money's worth with the Hero XI - just my opinion.
> 
> Only had about 4 hours to test yesterday, but the Aorus Master offered some interesting OC results with my 9700k vs. the Hero XI. Everything else (hardware-wise) was the same except the XMP profile. Gigabyte BIOS XMP gets my 2x 8GB Tridentz 3200 (B-die) F4-3200C14D-16GTZSK to 3200MHz 14-14-14-34 no problem. The Maximus XI on the other hand has a second XMP profile that resulted in the same RAM frequency and timings but was somehow "ASUS optimized". Not sure what else this changed and if this difference helps explain my results outlined below.
> 
> AIDA64 stress test for 30 min @ 5.3Ghz.
> 
> Hero XI: 1.38V was required to hit 5.3GHz. Max package CPU temp was 88C.
> Aorus Master: 1.33 was required to hit 5.3GHz. Max package CPU temp was 77C. So Aorus Master VRM clearly wins.
> I realize the Vcore readings can vary per manufacture/board, but the lower core temp is clearly a win.
> 
> Now here's the weird part. I was able to hit 5.4GHz "stable" on the Hero XI running AIDA64 stress for 30 min @ 1.385.
> The Aorus Master will boot to windows @ 5.4GHz, but crashes immediately on any stress test or even when loading a game - no matter how much voltage I throw at it/LLC level.
> 
> So the Aorus Master is clearly more capable of the 5.3GHz OC, but completely fails @ 5.4GHz. And the Hero XI ran a hotter 5.3GHz but was stable @ 5.4GHz. What gives??
> 
> Other impressions of Aorus Master:
> I'm also experiencing the audio shielding problem pointed out by @Cyph3r. It's an absolute shame. Can't believe Gigabyte screwed this up on a higher end board. Is there a way to self-repair this?
> I have no problems navigating and using the Gigabyte F5 bios. Took me about 30 minutes to find out where everything was and I was good to go. I find it no more difficult to use than the ASUS bios - again, my opinion.


For the shielding problem, the solution is simple : buy a sound card with a power connector (ASUS Essence STX...). 

The sound quality of a card is far better than every motherboard audio stage. Plus you can keep a sound card a very long time, their value does not decrease with years.


----------



## Cyph3r

GTANY said:


> For the shielding problem, the solution is simple : buy a sound card with a power connector (ASUS Essence STX...).
> 
> The sound quality of a card is far better than every motherboard audio stage. Plus you can keep a sound card a very long time, their value does not decrease with years.


Not even necessarily true.

1. Dedicated sound cards can still experience shielding issues.

2. The Gigabyte board has an ESS Sabre DAC (a slightly better one than the ESS Sabre DAC used on Maximus XI Hero) and similar to the ESS Sabre DAC used on the Creative AE-5 Soundcard. ESS Sabre DACs are well regarded in the audio world. And these high-end motherboards have decent support componentry (amp, nichikon caps and wima film caps). It's just a shame that Gigabyte dropped the ball with audio isolation - the Asus did better in regards to isolation.


----------



## GTANY

Cyph3r said:


> Not even necessarily true.
> 
> 1. Dedicated sound cards can still experience shielding issues.
> 
> 2. The Gigabyte board has an ESS Sabre DAC (a slightly better one than the ESS Sabre DAC used on Maximus XI Hero) and similar to the ESS Sabre DAC used on the Creative AE-5 Soundcard. ESS Sabre DACs are well regarded in the audio world. And these high-end motherboards have decent support componentry (amp, nichikon caps and wima film caps). It's just a shame that Gigabyte dropped the ball with audio isolation - the Asus did better in regards to isolation.


For your problems, contact GBT-MatthewH : https://www.overclock.net/forum/6-i...1478-gigabyte-aorus-z390-owners-thread-6.html

He may transmit them to the technical department.


----------



## vvoid

GTANY said:


> For the shielding problem, the solution is simple : buy a sound card with a power connector (ASUS Essence STX...).
> The sound quality of a card is far better than every motherboard audio stage. Plus you can keep a sound card a very long time, their value does not decrease with years.


As somewhat of an audiophile person, having used/tested multiple expensive DACs in my main HIFI setup, I have to strongly agree. Every motherboard audio stage I ever had in my various PCs over many years always sucked. Don't believe this ESS Sabre DAC stuff beeing automatically superior or anything. The actual DAC chip doesn't by far play the most important role. It's about the implementation and circuit design around it, especially the audio output stage. PC mainboards just cannot deliver in this regard, no matter what. Just forget about onboard audio if you care about sound quality, at least that's my opinion. (But yes, audible parasitic sound distortions really mustn't be present on any mainboards in this price range, what a shame really!)

Cheaper, but ok'ish solutions were mentioned, but for simple 2-channel audio I would stay away from the cheap Soundblaster-like, PC-gaming targeted external soundcards. Good options, including a decent headphone amp, in the price range <$100 are for example:
Schiit Fulla
SMSL M3
FiiO E10K
(in this order, lol)


----------



## GBT-MatthewH

Cyph3r said:


> I had this problem even though everything was completely stable, no threads would fail but the fans would still die.
> 
> @GBT-MatthewH - someone else reporting the same issue I had. Was there any news on getting this resolved?


Sounds like 2 different problems. I still can't reproduce any fans simply turning off, but we are testing various fan configurations.



PuD said:


> Hello to all, new user, but a lot of "lurking" in this thread. I've just bought an Aorus Master with a 9600k (waiting price down). Pretty good and happy with it, but I found the same problem too.
> 
> What I noticed, however, is that this behavior occurs only when in p95 a thread got in error (one core stop to work, overclocking not stable, voltage too low) and repeats itself every time a new thread fails.
> 
> 
> Also for me the "Smart Fan 5" and generally all the apps seem incomplete software or with several sometimes annoying bugs; such as self-calibration or the choice of temperature sensor that can not be changed.
> I hope for some improvement in the future.


Can you elaborate? Maybe in the Master thread so we don't derail this thread into tech support: https://www.overclock.net/forum/6-i...1478-gigabyte-aorus-z390-owners-thread-7.html


----------



## Pictus

vvoid said:


> As somewhat of an audiophile person, having used/tested multiple expensive DACs in my main HIFI setup,(...)


You may like this


----------



## doom26464

Having still waiting for my 9900k, I just been sitting back watching the mobo discusion going on. 

Its a pity there has been no clear winner yet found though, this is scaring me by time my chip ships I still wont know what to pick. 

Asus is kind of disaponting with there vrm choice. 

While gigabyte looks to have a really good vrm the audio issues really make me sad as on board audio is very important to me. I mean I can always get a USB DAC but I would excpet a high end board like the master to at least have decent audio/issolation. 

Not much on asrock/msi as of latly mostly seems to be a gigabyte vrs asus battle taking place for best 300ish board.


----------



## AlphaC

toncij said:


> So, all about Aorus, but what about MSI boards? Godlike any good (ignore the price)?


It's not so much the price as what you get for the money. So here's what I think about the entire MSI lineup:

The *Godlike *is pricier than the ASUS/Gigabyte AORUS high end but doesn't have the parts to show for it (where's the 10GBps LAN? Where's the thunderbolt? Where's the DIMM.2? Why is the heatsink so shoddy with no backplate? where's the Dual BIOS?). Maybe if you value Killer xTend as $150 or something ( a decent WIFI router's cost) and the "OLED to show off your own personality" as $30-50. Because it is a low volume product you're paying for exclusivity to a point. 

So if you decide to drop $600 on it, I would try to price out all the features you can make use of before buying it. If you're not using LN2 or some other exotic cooling solution I don't know why you would bother other than for bragging rights of 16 phases. I think Gordon Ma Ung at PCWorld in his i9-9900k video pointed out there's two kinds of overclockers: the ones that run a benchmark for 5 minutes to reach a world record ( i.e. quad SLI to reach a Timespy record but rarely do non-compute applications support more than SLI nowadays) and the people that just overclock for 24/7 usage (i.e. people running [email protected] or rendering on 4 GPUs). This isn't really optimized for 24/7 usage at all because you're missing IO improvements such as Thunderbolt or a PLX chip. For all the audio improvements touted such as 2x ALC1220 and ESS DAC, the Techpowerup Rightmark Audio Analyzer result was very close to a Z390 Taichi.

The* Ace* seems to be a better buy now that it dropped to $250 USD / EURO but at the end of the day it's still using $0.30 powerpaks similar to their lowest end $120 boards. It would have to be run at a lower switching frequency (~300kHz) relative to the Taichi and Aorus Master / Pro to be efficient since the switch times & RDS(on) aren't great ; efficiency should peak around 89-90% with light load efficiency tanking if phase shedding isn't working well. Let's disregard that for a minute and temporarily forget this is a VRM thread. It has a power/reset/clear CMOS button that is not going to be more than $20-30 in parts , a debug LED that can't be more than $10 to implement. There's a 3rd M.2 slot (arguably not very useful on Z390 due to PCIE lanes) which the lower end boards don't have and a second USB 3.1 gen 2 front panel connector which is pretty much a fluff feature at this current time. Apparently there's an ASM3142 to provide USB 3.1 gen2 so maybe there is a minor increase in speed relative to Z390 chipset. The only LAN on the board is Killer E2500 which arguably has less compatibility than the Intel Gigabit LAN. Also MSI dropped the ball on marketing since only recently the marketing page has the ESS DAC , in the specs it doesn't list that. Ultimately it is up against the Taichi / z390 Phantom Gaming 6 (2 x M.2 only) / Aorus Ultra / STRIX (2 x M.2 only), so the downward price pressure on this board is quite high.

The *Edge* is the highlight of the MSI lineup , although there's a price premium tacked on from z390. Firstly it isn't gamer branded so people that actually use 16 threads might buy it. It's good enough to be considered OK for a i7-9700k or an i9-9900k with large AVX offsets but at the same time it costs close to what other midrange boards cost. There's debug status LEDs , USB 3.1 gen 2 front panel connector, ALC1220 with shielding. They let down with the choice of 433 Mbps wifi though. The problem with the board isn't that it's bad at all : it's that it doesn't exist in a vacuum since there's the STRIX-E / STRIX-F boards , Z390-A, Aorus boards, and the Taichi / Gaming 6 on the market. Given the Gaming 6 is a minor iteration (might even be worse) than the Z370 K6 except for heatsink size, it's a minor let down but still decent.

I don't know what happened with respect to the *Pro Carbon*. There's way too much plastic at the IO area , the VRM heatsink is lame in fin area and the way it is covered in plastic RGB covers, and I don't see a compelling reason to pay more for this over the Edge (ALC1220P-VB2 vs ALC1220P differences are likely minor). For people that are into VR, like on the Edge board the USB port count is rather low. _This situation is very similar to the Aorus Elite situation (except in reverse), where the price jump is minimal to the Pro non-WIFI in exchange for a few feature upgrades that in total just aren't worth forgoing for the roughly $10 MSRP difference._

*Z390I GAMING EDGE AC *isn't too bad relatively to its competition power delivery wise but the audio is budget level ALC892 , the WIFI is 433Mbps, and it uses a Realtek LAN.

The *mATX Edge* is a decent board if AVX loading is not considered , but the VRM is mediocre at best (8x powerpaks without doublers). The featureset is well rounded for a mATX board. To put it into perspective: it retains USB 3.1 gen 2 front panel connector and 2x M.2 and comes with >1 Gbps WIFI.

The *Tomahawk *is basically a mediocre VRM with a cheap audio solution and the USB 3.1 gen 2 front panel connector is gone (no qualms about this, it's just worthy of note). The price is close to inline with its components. The design could have put less emphasis on IO cover IMO (see the Edge) and the presence of a second Intel LAN seems odd at the pricepoint. I'd rather get the mATX Edge (possibly even the Mortar), especially given the IO is more or less the same (sans WIFI).

*Mortar *is essentially a Tomahawk mATX without second LAN.

Gaming Plus / Z390 A Pro aren't boards I would consider buying. They're cut down extremely and this early on the price premium is high percentage-wise even for bottom of the barrel boards. There's easily a 15-20% price premium on Z390 overall.

-----

The only board on the market I would not hesitate to buy _at all_ is the Phantom ITX. There's no way at all that you can match 2x2 wifi ac, $7 powerstages with a heatpipe, and Thunderbolt 3 out of the box support on a sub $200 board. The cheapest z390 board from any vendor currently is $100 USD , so even if you value the Thunderbolt3 at a mere $60 and the 1Gbps wifi at $20 it's already at $180.


Asrock didn't do _as well_ for midrange this time around however especially when they ask for $170 USD / 170 Euros for the Extreme4 which is a sort of copy paste job still missing debug LED. Luckily they kept the dual BIOS. Also in the Asian markets, good luck selling things with the number 4 in the name. The up9521 hasn't been proven to be better than IR35201 PWM so I don't have utmost confidence in the Phantom Gaming 6 either.


Phantom SLI ac is still a joke if the Anandtech Z390 overview article is correct since it is using random no spec sheet NIKOS mosfets mounted with push pins and an ALC892 solution with no shielding. Phantom Gaming 4 is a budget board with a slight gaming price premium , it's a budget board in all aspects (power, sound, IO, everything) and the same goes for the Pro4.


-------------------
Z390-E confirmation (for br0da)








https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pxkr9dOhybk



STRIX Z390-I (ASP1401CTB PWM , Onsemi NCP302045): http://greentechreviews.ru/2018/11/04/obzor-materinskoj-platy-asus-rog-strix-z390-i-gaming/


Z390 Maximus XI Formula (ASP1400CTB , SiC639) : http://greentechreviews.ru/2018/10/28/obzor-materinskoj-platy-asus-rog-maximus-xi-formula/


ROG Hero: http://greentechreviews.ru/2018/10/19/obzor-materinskoj-platy-asus-rog-maximus-xi-hero/


----------



## Telstar

Pictus said:


> You may like this


Those ratings are just based on technical measurements, which tells only half of the story on how a DAC will sound. 
ALC1120 is pretty good and the real difference between it and ESS9xxxx is trivial, while somebody may actually prefer the realteck dac, provided it is well isolated and has separate power lines in the mainboard. 
Motherboards with the older inferior ALC chipsets should be excluded unless one wants to use a separate DAC (usb or pcie).


my 2c offtopic.


----------



## Zyvv

So, the mb I have right now for the new build is Asus Maximus XI Formula, 9900k is still on the way, so I can still return this Maximus XI Formula. I'm eyeing on Aorus Z390 Xtreme, if the cost difference is no issue, do you guys think I should swap base on the VRM info we have so far? I'll do OC but not extreme OC.

Thanks


----------



## Robbært

AlphaC said:


> ROG Hero: http://greentechreviews.ru/2018/10/19/obzor-materinskoj-platy-asus-rog-maximus-xi-hero/





> 5 GHz all cores, VRM temperature 110


another 110C VRM ASUS XI Hero confirmation (page 3 of your link)



AlphaC said:


> Z390 Maximus XI Formula (ASP1400CTB , SiC639) : http://greentechreviews.ru/2018/10/28/obzor-materinskoj-platy-asus-rog-maximus-xi-formula/


95C VRM without water
with water 71C (-24C)



AlphaC said:


> STRIX Z390-I (ASP1401CTB PWM , Onsemi NCP302045): http://greentechreviews.ru/2018/11/04/obzor-materinskoj-platy-asus-rog-strix-z390-i-gaming/3/


97C with OC
no OC VRM 64C, heatsink 55C


----------



## tostitobandito

Zyvv said:


> So, the mb I have right now for the new build is Asus Maximus XI Formula, 9900k is still on the way, so I can still return this Maximus XI Formula. I'm eyeing on Aorus Z390 Xtreme, if the cost difference is no issue, do you guys think I should swap base on the VRM info we have so far? I'll do OC but not extreme OC.
> 
> Thanks



It depends what is important to you. The Formula VRM will be plenty for any reasonable OC you might want to do, especially if you run water through the VRM. All boards/makes have pros and cons as you can see from this thread. You can undoubtedly find a different and cheaper non-Asus board with a more robust VRM configuration, but that board will probably have other things that it might not do as well as the Asus.


I'd advise against focusing solely on the VRM of a board when making purchasing decisions, unless you're planning on using it in an extreme overclocking bench or something like that. It's important, but most/all of the high end boards have VRM's which are so overbuilt for non-extreme OC scenarios that they should all be fine. It's just the degree to which they're overbuilt and the temps they run at which can vary a bit, and those may not have any bearing on what stable clock a given board can achieve.


----------



## GBT-MatthewH

Zyvv said:


> So, the mb I have right now for the new build is Asus Maximus XI Formula, 9900k is still on the way, so I can still return this Maximus XI Formula. I'm eyeing on Aorus Z390 Xtreme, if the cost difference is no issue, do you guys think I should swap base on the VRM info we have so far? I'll do OC but not extreme OC.
> 
> Thanks


In terms of VRM if you like the master temps you should see the Xtreme when VRM reviews start coming out... The cooling is insane (4 heat pipes!)

I would really be asking myself if I will use 10G Lan and/or Tb3. If you simply want the best of the best go for it, but if it were my $ and I am not using these 2 features I would get master. My 2 cents.


----------



## toncij

AlphaC said:


> ...


Thank you very much for this!

So, for an ITX board, Phantom is the best choice. In case of a full-size board, GB seems the best with Master or Xtreme, if their UEFI got better...



GBT-MatthewH said:


> In terms of VRM if you like the master temps you should see the Xtreme when VRM reviews start coming out... The cooling is insane (4 heat pipes!)
> 
> I would really be asking myself if I will use 10G Lan and/or Tb3. If you simply want the best of the best go for it, but if it were my $ and I am not using these 2 features I would get master. My 2 cents.


Two questions remain: when? NVRAM unlocked or not?


----------



## tostitobandito

Robbært said:


> another 110C VRM ASUS XI Hero confirmation (page 3 of your link)
> 
> 
> 95C VRM without water
> with water 71C (-24C)



To be fair, that was deliberately with zero airflow. In all the OC streams and whatnot I've seen using that board in either a case with good airflow or on a test bench with fans, the VRM temp was reasonable even at 5.3GHz or higher. I recall Steve from GN was specifically checking VRM temps as he OC'd that board on his livestream a few weeks back, and they were fine. I don't recall the exact numbers, but it's in there somewhere.

Yeah the Hero VRM's are definitely a bit hotter than the other boards, but not by a massive amount (maybe 10% or so). Buildzoid does a good job explaining why in his video.


----------



## Robbært

tostitobandito said:


> To be fair, that was deliberately with zero airflow. In all the OC streams and whatnot I've seen using that board in either a case with good airflow or on a test bench with fans, the VRM temp was reasonable even at 5.3GHz or higher. I recall Steve from GN was specifically checking VRM temps as he OC'd that board on his livestream a few weeks back, and they were fine. I don't recall the exact numbers, but it's in there somewhere.


they should stay under 95(100)C with 0 airflow
and XI Hero is $300 board, not $140


----------



## tostitobandito

Robbært said:


> they should stay under 95(100)C with 0 airflow
> and XI Hero is $300 board, not $140



How is that any sort of valid test or non-arbitrary number? Who overclocks a board with no airflow who doesn't have a waterblock on the VRM's? Nobody. It's not representative at all of real-world use. Also, I bet many other boards get to similar temps under the same restrictions. The boards with more stages and surface area or bigger heatsinks will do a little better, but it will still get really hot because the hot air will just sit around the VRM/heatsink and hamper its ability to cool off due to the high ambient temperature. Even a little bit of airflow from case fans will drop those temps 20-30C.


----------



## Abaidor

toncij said:


> Thanks for that.
> 
> Valid points tho. So, what about MSI? Seems they got it right with Godlike?
> 
> 
> 
> Extreme is nowhere to be found to be bought so...





GBT-MatthewH said:


> In terms of VRM if you like the master temps you should see the Xtreme when VRM reviews start coming out... The cooling is insane (4 heat pipes!)
> 
> I would really be asking myself if I will use 10G Lan and/or Tb3. If you simply want the best of the best go for it, but if it were my $ and I am not using these 2 features I would get master. My 2 cents.


It has some nice extras as I listed above here is what I found so far vs the Asus

-10GB NIC
-Thunderbolt 3
-2X USB Type C connectors at the back
-Better audio (looks like although Asus has a tradition in audio so I reserve judgment here)
-OC Panel with Extra 8X PWM fan connectors 
-RGB Controller that also serves as a fan controller with 8X ports (for addressable leds too). In comparison the extra Aura Controller costs over 100 Euros
-Better VRM cooling and backplate cooling
-Metal angled 24-pin connector


I am also really torn between this and Asus Formula & Extreme but since I will buy after Christmas the "dust will have settled" by then...I never buy upon release anyway...I always wait but that's just me.


----------



## AlphaC

MSI Edge result , Linpack AVX in openbench setup with Eisbaer 360 LT full copper AIO in exhaust (see page 5) , the fans range to 1700RPM but the RPM is unlisted:
http://www.gdm.or.jp/review/2018/1030/280274/7









> The surface temperature of the heat sink is not worried at all in the first half of 40 ℃. Also, in sensor readings on the motherboard, rated 67.5 ° C and overclocking 69 ° C. Given that some MOSFETs had a MOSFET temperature as high as 90 ° C when operating a 6-core / 12-thread CPU with the previous-generation motherboard, the MOSFET heatsink equipped with "MPG Z390 GAMING EDGE AC" It can be said that it is demonstrating the cooling performance.


Phantom Gaming 9 teardown
http://www.gdm.or.jp/review/2018/1104/280453/5


Taichi teardown
http://www.gdm.or.jp/review/2018/1009/277744/5

Aorus Master teardown
http://www.gdm.or.jp/review/2018/1019/279046/5
(Audio section: page 4 http://www.gdm.or.jp/review/2018/1019/279046/4)

ROG Hero teardown
http://www.gdm.or.jp/review/2018/1022/279698/5
(the only difference I see is the http://www.ti.com/product/RC4580 OP amp ,as far as the semi-offtopic audio discussion goes)

Hero thermal result with Eisbaer LT 360 AIO (full copper) setup as open bench where a top mount exhausting AIO would be in a case
















-----------------------------


Pro Carbon result 5GHz i7-9700K with LinX = 77°C maybe (no duration mention) on some Corsair AIO

https://hwtips.tistory.com/2671


-----------------------------


Maximus XI Extreme + i9-9900K / i7-9700K on LN2
https://vonguru.fr/2018/11/06/test-asus-maximus-xi-extreme-z390-9900k/


----------



## sdch

elmor said:


> 3 PWM signals each one to 2x NCP302045, no doublers


Ah, so the Z390-I uses a "twin 6-phase" design, to use marketing speak. Thanks for your insight.


----------



## sdch

toncij said:


> ...
> So, for an ITX board, Phantom is the best choice.
> ...


This looks to be the case.


----------



## Cyph3r

sdch said:


> Ah, so the Z390-I uses a "twin 6-phase" design, to use marketing speak. Thanks for your insight.


3-phase*


----------



## sdch

Cyph3r said:


> 3-phase*


Yep. 3 true phases. That's really disappointing.


----------



## postem

I have one question? What about Asus Apex X? z370 board, it have 8 CPU Phases, it uses the same VRM scheme, its 8 real phases or its 4 doubled?
Theorically it was sold as the overkill option for Z370, including the 2 12v power pins.


----------



## AlphaC

https://siliconlottery.com/pages/intel-coffee-lake-r


z370 APEX is on the QVL


also it's using 8x Infineon 50A Optimos AFAIK so even if they're not doubled the RDS(on) and switch times are really low which is why that family of powerblocks stated as ~94% peak efficiency


----------



## porksmuggler

postem said:


> I have one question? What about Asus Apex X? z370 board, it have 8 CPU Phases, it uses the same VRM scheme, its 8 real phases or its 4 doubled?
> Theorically it was sold as the overkill option for Z370, including the 2 12v power pins.


The Z370 Maximus X Apex used a design similar to the X Code / Formula, but with different FETs. It's a ASP1405I PWM, 4x IR3599 doublers, and 8 BSG0812ND. So 4 phases doubled, not 4 phase parallel like most of the X Hero boards, or the newer XI Hero, Code, Formula boards.


----------



## elmor

postem said:


> I have one question? What about Asus Apex X? z370 board, it have 8 CPU Phases, it uses the same VRM scheme, its 8 real phases or its 4 doubled?
> Theorically it was sold as the overkill option for Z370, including the 2 12v power pins.





AlphaC said:


> https://siliconlottery.com/pages/intel-coffee-lake-r
> 
> 
> z390 APEX is on the QVL
> 
> 
> also it's using 8x Infineon 50A Optimos AFAIK so even if they're not doubled the RDS(on) and switch times are really low which is why that family of powerblocks stated as ~94% peak efficiency



M11A is using 8 PWM signals, each to 2x IR3555.


----------



## Adamastor

Is there any new information about the EVGA Z390 FTW?


----------



## Astral85

For anyone with the Maximus X Hero not getting VRM readings in your monitoring software do you have SVID enabled in the BIOS? As far as I know you need it enabled to get the VRM reading. Also some X Hero's didn't come with VRM sensors.


----------



## AlphaC

elmor said:


> M11A is using 8 PWM signals, each to 2x IR3555.


 oops, that was typo meant z370


----------



## postem

porksmuggler said:


> The Z370 Maximus X Apex used a design similar to the X Code / Formula, but with different FETs. It's a ASP1405I PWM, 4x IR3599 doublers, and 8 BSG0812ND. So 4 phases doubled, not 4 phase parallel like most of the X Hero boards, or the newer XI Hero, Code, Formula boards.


So i guess APEX X is a good alternative if i choose to replace my Hero X? 
Too bad i cant monitor my VRM temps on hwinfo now. Last test i done so far is prime95, which draws up to 178W. For my most heavy usage it stays around 110-130W, so below 100A. 

Summing all i read here, main concerns, about 9900K is about power draw (and every Hero X/XI can manage to draw 300W+ without blowing), but i cant be sure at what temps. Also, realistic, on a 9900K @ 5ghz, what is the typical non AVX Power/Amp i should expect @ 1.3v?


----------



## postem

Astral85 said:


> For anyone with the Maximus X Hero not getting VRM readings in your monitoring software do you have SVID enabled in the BIOS? As far as I know you need it enabled to get the VRM reading. Also some X Hero's didn't come with VRM sensors.


I tried enabling SVID and it didnt make any difference.
Also there is some temperature readings reporting wrong numbers, and its not a calibration issue since it keeps same values regardless of load.


----------



## porksmuggler

postem said:


> So i guess APEX X is a good alternative if i choose to replace my Hero X?
> Too bad i cant monitor my VRM temps on hwinfo now. Last test i done so far is prime95, which draws up to 178W. For my most heavy usage it stays around 110-130W, so below 100A.
> 
> Summing all i read here, main concerns, about 9900K is about power draw (and every Hero X/XI can manage to draw 300W+ without blowing), but i cant be sure at what temps. Also, realistic, on a 9900K @ 5ghz, what is the typical non AVX Power/Amp i should expect @ 1.3v?


You seem to be answering your own questions, then asking for agreement maybe? No, I don't think I personally would consider the X Apex, unless you're getting a great deal on one used or something.

You can't monitor VRM temps because you very likely have the original VRM design on your X Hero, and no I don't think putting 300W through that board's VRM is a great idea. Look for a board that can handle at least 200A with decent VRM temps, regardless of the details AVX or no, 1.2 or 1.4v, 5GHz or 5.1GHz, etc.


----------



## postem

porksmuggler said:


> You seem to be answering your own questions, then asking for agreement maybe? No, I don't think I personally would consider the X Apex, unless you're getting a great deal on one used or something.
> 
> You can't monitor VRM temps because you very likely have the original VRM design on your X Hero, and no I don't think putting 300W through that board's VRM is a great idea. Look for a board that can handle at least 200A with decent VRM temps, regardless of the details AVX or no, 1.2 or 1.4v, 5GHz or 5.1GHz, etc.


The question about Apex X is because i probably can cut a deal where i can get it spending much less money for a brand new card. Things are crappy here in Brazil we have lots of taxes.

Regarding 9900K, do you consider 200A should be be the reliability norm? Considering the combined power phases of Hero XI (and the rest of ROG XI line except extreme/APEX), it should be capable of delivering 200A+, but probably strained or too hot?

In the end, what we have as recommended boards for z390 after all these pages, Gigabyte, Asrock top tiers and (?) MSI?


----------



## porksmuggler

postem said:


> The question about Apex X is because i probably can cut a deal where i can get it spending much less money for a brand new card. Things are crappy here in Brazil we have lots of taxes.
> 
> Regarding 9900K, do you consider 200A should be be the reliability norm? Considering the combined power phases of Hero XI (and the rest of ROG XI line except extreme/APEX), it should be capable of delivering 200A+, but probably strained or too hot?
> 
> In the end, what we have as recommended boards for z390 after all these pages, Gigabyte, Asrock top tiers and (?) MSI?


Sorry, didn't realize Brazil. 

200A at least, so its more complicated than adding up the FET avg currents and phases, even though I keep seeing those remedial calculations on OCN. The quality of the PWM, its operation in interleave or no, count of true phases that are not linearly impactful, the robustness of the power/ground planes, and I could go on and on. There's also misunderstanding here with the FETs thermal dissipation, dependent on type, most is into the board, not the heatsinks.

I don't know which post I recommended boards in, so hopefully this works for now: https://pcpartpicker.com/products/motherboard/#c=135&sort=-price&m=7,18&X=19056,99900


----------



## postem

porksmuggler said:


> Sorry, didn't realize Brazil.
> 
> 200A at least, so its more complicated than adding up the FET avg currents and phases, even though I keep seeing those remedial calculations on OCN. The quality of the PWM, its operation in interleave or no, count of true phases that are not linearly impactful, the robustness of the power/ground planes, and I could go on and on. There's also misunderstanding here with the FETs thermal dissipation, dependent on type, most is into the board, not the heatsinks.
> 
> I don't know which post I recommended boards in, so hopefully this works for now: https://pcpartpicker.com/products/motherboard/#c=135&sort=-price&m=7,18&X=19056,99900


So you can get an idea how bad things are about taxes:
Aorus master here is being sold at around 2300 BRL, this give us about 620$, or about 100% taxes.

Yes you need to really want hardware to pay those prices. And im still waiting delivery for my 2080ti , fortunally im going to pay less than half since i will sell both my 1080s.

I seen you put Aorus Pro wifi on list, what about Asus MEG ? Any info on it?

Damn, it seen Asus really dropped the ball this time, and Asus is usually cheaper here, usually due to large volume shipping dealers do to resell.


----------



## encrypted11

KedarWolf said:


> I have a Maximus X Formula which has a decent VRM setup. If I'm going to a mid-range Z390 board, is the Taichi the way to go or should I go with another board to do better than my Formula?
> 
> I'm already getting 5.0GHZ 4.6GHZ cache 4000 memory on my 9900k at 16-16-16-30 2T 4x8GB with really tight RTLs etc. at a low 1.43v Eventual, 1.2125 SA and 1.2125 VCCIO.


At some point, the limits are clearly VRM cooling so the use of a monoblock may be preferred. The bare taichi PCB (also used on ultimate/phantom 9) is probably a good pick for cost savings over a formula that'll probably buy you a monoblock.
ASRock's the other manufacturer apart from Asus that has memory designs that'll manage tight timings and high frequency.

Here's @swddeluxx's run on the Z370 Taichi (Fatal1ty i7 PCB). It does manage 2 DIMM phenomenally well for a 4DIMM board (likely better than the Hero on 2 DIMMs). 



Spoiler















But it is still an unknown if the Taichi's are using T-Topology on the memory because the 4DIMM maximus's are T. I've seen good 4xSR B-die stressapptest results including your results and those of a friend that's sitting on the fence on an upgrade to the Taichi Ultimate.
If The Taichi+'s are a T, in theory the 4 DIMM frequency yields you'd expect are probably better on 4 than 2. This would be extremely promising considering the 4200-4500 tight memory overclocks a number of people on a 4333+ rated board. In retrospect, the Z390 Taichi+'s landing webpage advertises 4200+ on the memory (either on hardware changes or down to a nascent bios).

The limited amounts of 4DIMM 4000+ mem OC runs from peeps with the smaller user base are making the Taichi PCB a tough buy over the 8 layer asus t tops. Unless someone out there steps up and tests the 4xSR B-die performance extensively on the Taichi there's still no confirmation that these boards are any better in 2DPC configs.
(Worth noting Asus's ads are citing 4 DIMM frequencies while ASRocks are citing 2, they run their QVLs quite differently it would seem).

Tl;dr, it might be better but tell us more when you find out the answer =


----------



## Astral85

postem said:


> I tried enabling SVID and it didnt make any difference.
> Also there is some temperature readings reporting wrong numbers, and its not a calibration issue since it keeps same values regardless of load.


If it's going to show it will be under Asus EC sensors. Is it not there?


----------



## porksmuggler

postem said:


> So you can get an idea how bad things are about taxes:
> Aorus master here is being sold at around 2300 BRL, this give us about 620$, or about 100% taxes.
> 
> Yes you need to really want hardware to pay those prices. And im still waiting delivery for my 2080ti , fortunally im going to pay less than half since i will sell both my 1080s.
> 
> I seen you put Aorus Pro wifi on list, what about Asus MEG ? Any info on it?
> 
> Damn, it seen Asus really dropped the ball this time, and Asus is usually cheaper here, usually due to large volume shipping dealers do to resell.


Yes, the Asus boards I would recommend XI Extreme / Gene / Apex, all much, much more. If XI Extreme / Gene around $300 US, sure, XI Apex $350, sure.

Asus MEG? You mean MSI MEG Ace maybe? I do not recommend, no.


----------



## Raghar

tostitobandito said:


> How is that any sort of valid test or non-arbitrary number? Who overclocks a board with no airflow who doesn't have a waterblock on the VRM's?


I do. And I also need to use silent case, which while it has airflow, it definitely doesn't equal a vacuum cleaner. Frankly, airflow doesn't equal airflow to VRM mini heatsinks. Some cases are spill resistant, which mean the area directly above VRM heatsinks is solid metal.

Proper MB should have enough fin and proper heatpipes and should handle 8 core without problems.


----------



## postem

Astral85 said:


> If it's going to show it will be under Asus EC sensors. Is it not there?


No, not info, probably its one of the dud thermistors, it dont report under EC.



porksmuggler said:


> Yes, the Asus boards I would recommend XI Extreme / Gene / Apex, all much, much more. If XI Extreme / Gene around $300 US, sure, XI Apex $350, sure.
> 
> Asus MEG? You mean MSI MEG Ace maybe? I do not recommend, no.


Typo. Yes MSI MEG. I ditched MSI boards since Haswell since several issues i had, Bios dying, needing a lot of voltage to stablize.

Im probably considering Gene, since it is 5 phases and personally i was prone going mAtx. Gonna wait some more time, 9900k has a long road until i arrives here.


----------



## postem

Raghar said:


> I do. And I also need to use silent case, which while it has airflow, it definitely doesn't equal a vacuum cleaner. Frankly, airflow doesn't equal airflow to VRM mini heatsinks. Some cases are spill resistant, which mean the area directly above VRM heatsinks is solid metal.
> 
> Proper MB should have enough fin and proper heatpipes and should handle 8 core without problems.


The worse trend in motherboards, apart from RGB, is the replacement of real fins for chunks of metal, usually coated in shinny plastic, or even worse, filled with rgb leds


----------



## et7878789

Astral85 said:


> If it's going to show it will be under Asus EC sensors. Is it not there?


T.Probe
Leading Active Cooling Technology
The T.Probe microchip detects and balances power phase loads and temperatures real-time. With optimal power phase functions, components run cooler and extend system lifespan. 

VRM can set T.Probe mode but cannot read VRM temp.This is really strange.


----------



## Zammin

I'm a bit late to this thread, but I am one of the people that had already purchased a Maximus XI board (Formula) before the videos from HWU and Buildzoid came out over the weekend. I am of the same opinion as many of the earlier comments in this thread that while I think the "twin 8 phase" marketing is false and misleading, and the VRM design/cost saving measures are disappointing for the price you pay, I don't think that the boards are inadequate for that anyone simply wanting a modest overclock on a 9900k like myself. Pretty much all the reviews I read regarding the Maximus XI Hero and Formula were all able to get 5Ghz fairly easily, and while the VRM temps on the Hero in Hardware Unboxed's testing were higher than the rest at 5Ghz without airflow, once they were placed in a case with fans the OC VRM temps came down to about the same as the Taichi Ultimate which isn't that bad. I expect the Formula to cool better with the water block plumbed into my loop.

GN also mentioned in a livestream today that he doesn't believe the VRM on the Hero/Code/Formula is inadequate since they got 5.4Ghz on it, the board is just overpriced. Which is pretty much inline with the general consensus with many of us here and on the ROG forum (see 31:38): https://youtu.be/FrSRypkm1uc?t=1898

As someone said earlier there are still other things to take into account when choosing a board for our builds like features, BIOS, software and watercooling support etc. In my case I am not looking to do any extreme overclocking and I do like the features the Formula comes with, so even though it's overpriced I think it will do the job for me. I also agree with some previous comments about how all the competing Z390 boards have their pros and cons. These are the kind of things to consider when deciding whether to keep your Maximus XI board or not.

With that aside I must state again I do not agree with the way ASUS has advertised and priced the boards, or how they are not commenting on the thread about it on the ROG forum even though the thread has been up for weeks now. None of this looks good for the brand and I think anyone who returns their board is totally justified. Hopefully ASUS will learn from this and deliver us something better for our money next time.

Thanks to everyone for contributing so much useful info to this thread


----------



## HKPolice

@GBT-MatthewH Buildzoid analyzed the VRM on the GB Z390-I Aorus board and said the IR3553 DrMOS used runs inefficiently @ 5v drive so he assumes that GB is running them @ 6.8V. Can you confirm this? Most other mosfets are run at the standard 5V. How about on the Z390 Master which uses the same IR3553, does it also use 6.8V drive?

https://youtu.be/vISjNb2jIVI?t=7m35s


----------



## Astral85

Does anyone know of any technical analysis articles on the Asus Maximus X Z370 series VRM's particularly the Maximus X Hero?

BTW I don't know how some reviewers get their VRM temps. I'm lucky enough to have the VRM sensor on my X-Hero and my VRM doesn't break 51C under sustained load with my 8700K at 5Ghz. That seems very good.


----------



## Kana Chan

IR pic in some cases


----------



## Amanbra

HKPolice;27703378 [USER=500510 said:


> @GBT-MatthewH[/USER] Buildzoid analyzed the VRM on the GB Z390-I Aorus board and said the IR3553 DrMOS used runs inefficiently @ 5v drive so he assumes that GB is running them @ 6.8V. Can you confirm this? Most other mosfets are run at the standard 5V. How about on the Z390 Master which uses the same IR3553, does it also use 6.8V drive?
> 
> https://youtu.be/vISjNb2jIVI?t=7m35s


 @GBT-MatthewH


why did you not put a heatsink on the 6ths mosfet?


----------



## eric98k

Guru3D ASUS ROG STRIX Z390-E review:
https://www.guru3d.com/articles-pages/asus-rog-strix-z390-e-gaming-review,1.html
9900K, Corsair H110 , CR15 2035 (same as M11H)
power consumption: 198W all core wPrime stress test, temp ~70C
OC: 5.2GHz, 1.34V, CR15 2233
VRM thermal: stock 53C, OC 63C

---

HKEPC ASRock Z390 Phantom Gaming-ITX/ac:
https://www.hkepc.com/17419/組建高效電競_Mini-PC_ASROCK_Z390_Phantom_Gaming-ITXac

PWM ISL69138, 5+2 ISL99227B SPS, Nichicon 12K cap, R22 inductor


----------



## lionc

Astral85 said:


> Does anyone know of any technical analysis articles on the Asus Maximus X Z370 series VRM's particularly the Maximus X Hero?


Sadly no, I was hoping buildzoid would make one but he didn't. I recall him commenting that a Z370 review wasn't not worth it when Z390 would make it obsolete after only a few months. That was before 9th gen compatibility for Z370 was confirmed.

Note that two completely different VRM layouts for the Maximus X Hero seem to exist, if yours has a VRM temperature readout you likely have the "better one". The "worse" layout doesn't appear have a temperature readout.

Also "sustained load at 5 GHz" can mean a lot of things, a good 5 GHz 8700K without AVX may consume 130W while a 5 GHz 9900K with AVX may pull 260W depending on voltages.


----------



## zGunBLADEz

So the asus z390-i its only 3-phases how hard you can push those phases before start getting into danger territory? My z370-G wasnt too nice with the 8700k to begin with before i monoblock her.

I bought the board mainly for shrinking the build and the 8700k + overclock. Havent even opened yet...


----------



## encrypted11

elmor's open letter written last year seemed almost like Deja Vu
I'm personally unhappy with the RGB sync, io plastic shroud, aluminium slab trends that are ongoing with boards in general.

https://www.reddit.com/r/hardware/comments/6atydw/open_but_personal_letter_to_the_pc_components/


----------



## GTANY

encrypted11 said:


> elmor's open letter written last year seemed almost like Deja Vu
> I'm personally unhappy with the RGB sync, io plastic shroud, aluminium slab trends that are ongoing with boards in general.
> 
> https://www.reddit.com/r/hardware/comments/6atydw/open_but_personal_letter_to_the_pc_components/


Completely agree : I remember the motherboards with copper and fins heatsinks : ASUS P5E3 Deluxe, ASUS Rampage Formula...

Nowadays, we have only aluminium and plastic.


----------



## Telstar

porksmuggler said:


> Yes, the Asus boards I would recommend XI Extreme / Gene / Apex, all much, much more. If XI Extreme / Gene around $300 US, sure, XI Apex $350, sure.


Prices are about 350 for Gene and 400 (unconfirmed) for Apex. 
Here you can find the Gene at about the same price as the Hero, which makes it a no-brainer.


----------



## Telstar

GTANY said:


> Completely agree : I remember the motherboards with copper and fins heatsinks : ASUS P5E3 Deluxe, ASUS Rampage Formula...


Raw copper prices have skyrocketed in the last 10 years.


----------



## asdkj1740

encrypted11 said:


> elmor's open letter written last year seemed almost like Deja Vu
> I'm personally unhappy with the RGB sync, io plastic shroud, aluminium slab trends that are ongoing with boards in general.
> 
> https://www.reddit.com/r/hardware/comments/6atydw/open_but_personal_letter_to_the_pc_components/


see this first time, i almost cry.


----------



## asdkj1740

zGunBLADEz said:


> So the asus z390-i its only 3-phases how hard you can push those phases before start getting into danger territory? My z370-G wasnt too nice with the 8700k to begin with before i monoblock her.
> 
> I bought the board mainly for shrinking the build and the 8700k + overclock. Havent even opened yet...


i dont understand why almost everyone loves the asrock z370 taichi, while keep attacking asus z390.
there are so many important factors influencing the vrm capability that we cant judge by eyes.


----------



## Solarity

AlphaC said:


> https://www.anandtech.com/show/13407/intel-z390-motherboard-overview-every-motherboard-analyzed/2
> 
> Anandtech has an incomplete power delivery chart.
> 
> But what I found interesting is that it claims Asrock's Z390 Phantom Gaming 6 uses UPI9521 PWM and so does the ASRock Z390 Extreme4.
> Incidentally it is the same PWM claimed on the MSI boards under the Godlike & Ace.
> 
> Somehow they omitted every single ASUS board.
> 
> We also learned from Gigabyte Matt that the unreleased Z390 Aorus Extreme uses 16x TDA21462 (60A powerstage) for VCore, which is the same as MSI Godlike listing on that page (TDA21462).
> 
> In my opinion, given the price of the Ace, it is a horrible buy at *$290* along with the Godlike at *$600*. It's still using ONsemi 4c024n + 4c029n as the other lower end MSI boards which isn't bad but not stellar.
> 
> The star here is the ASRock Z390 Phantom Gaming-ITX/ac again. It's the only board with Thunderbolt 3 out of the box and ISL99227B powerstages. At $190 it is almost a steal compared to the competitor boards in its price bracket.
> 
> -----
> 
> 
> https://www.hw-journal.de/testberic...i-mpg-z390-gaming-pro-carbon?showall=&start=3
> upi9521 used on Pro Carbon with 4C029 and 4C024 MOSFETs (Onsemi)
> 
> https://www.tweaktown.com/articles/8755/asrock-z390-taichi-intel-motherboard-preview/index3.html --- Steven's review of Z390 Taichi with TI NexFETs
> 
> Hardware info NL claims Onsemi NCP302045 powerstage from Z390-A also used on Z390-E (not surprised) https://nl.hardware.info/product/487307/asus-rog-strix-z390-e-gaming/specificaties
> 
> Hardware info NL also claims the Maximus XI Hero WIFI uses Vishay SiC639 Powerstages https://nl.hardware.info/product/487391/asus-rog-maximus-xi-hero-wi-fi/specificaties
> Maximus XI Formula also https://nl.hardware.info/product/487389/asus-rog-maximus-xi-formula/specificaties
> 
> Hardware info NL also confirms (I guess) Asrock's Z390 Extreme4 suffered a PWM downgrade to uP9521 despite retaining the same Fairchild Dual-N Fets https://nl.hardware.info/product/490361/asrock-z390-extreme4/specificaties
> 
> Maximus XI Extreme using IR3555 Powerstages https://www.hkepc.com/17297/問鼎_INTEL_Z390_板皇__ASUS_ROG_Maximus_XI_Extreme主機板
> 
> Lab501 review of Pro Carbon https://lab501.ro/placi-de-baza/prezentare-msi-z390-mpg-gaming-pro-carbon/4
> Lab501 review of Z390 Aorus Master https://lab501.ro/placi-de-baza/prezentare-z390-aorus-master-z390-aorus-pro/4
> Lab501 review of Z390 Aorus Pro https://lab501.ro/placi-de-baza/prezentare-z390-aorus-master-z390-aorus-pro/7
> 
> mobile01 overview (includes Maximus XI Extreme, Z390 Aorus Master , Z390 MEG ACE) https://www.mobile01.com/newsdetail...ard-rog-maximus-aorus-master-meg-corei9-9900k
> 
> 
> MSI Z390 Pro Carbon layout http://www.expreview.com/64442-all.html
> 
> MSI Z390 Gaming Plus (tested on i5-8600k though) , NTMFS4C029N + NTMFS4C024N, https://www.overclockers.ua/motherboard/msi-mpg-z390-gaming-plus/all/



AlphaC, could you please post a link for your different VRM rating charts? It would help a lot as I like to reference it.


----------



## toncij

asdkj1740 said:


> i dont understand why almost everyone loves the asrock z370 taichi, while keep attacking asus z390.
> there are so many important factors influencing the vrm capability that we cant judge by eyes.


Well, that 4-phase probably? I mean, I'm running an Formula X (AIO ATM) and it's simply fine with a 9900K at 5.2 and AVX-2 for 100% load. No issues so far.

Asus has a great BIOS, works for hackintoshes and that's a lot of value for me.


----------



## tostitobandito

Telstar said:


> Prices are about 350 for Gene and 400 (unconfirmed) for Apex.
> Here you can find the Gene at about the same price as the Hero, which makes it a no-brainer.



The XI Extreme was $500 US when it was listed/available. I expect the XI Apex to be a $600 board in the US.


----------



## Nizzen

tostitobandito said:


> The XI Extreme was $500 US when it was listed/available. I expect the XI Apex to be a $600 board in the US.



Asus z390 is listed here in Norway for 4990 NOK
Asus z390 Gene is listed in Norway for 3690 NOK

I use z390 Gene for my 9900k


----------



## GBT-MatthewH

Amanbra said:


> @GBT-MatthewH
> 
> 
> why did you not put a heatsink on the 6ths mosfet?


It's kind of on an island therefore does not have any thermal build up from surrounding (in this case lack of surrounding) components. In the past we generally don't cover this area on ITX. (See Z370N WIFI https://www.gigabyte.com/Motherboard/Z370N-WIFI-rev-10#kf )



HKPolice said:


> @GBT-MatthewH Buildzoid analyzed the VRM on the GB Z390-I Aorus board and said the IR3553 DrMOS used runs inefficiently @ 5v drive so he assumes that GB is running them @ 6.8V. Can you confirm this? Most other mosfets are run at the standard 5V. How about on the Z390 Master which uses the same IR3553, does it also use 6.8V drive?
> 
> https://youtu.be/vISjNb2jIVI?t=7m35s


I'll ask!

Edit: Runs off standard 5V.


----------



## bee144

encrypted11 said:


> elmor's open letter written last year seemed almost like Deja Vu
> I'm personally unhappy with the RGB sync, io plastic shroud, aluminium slab trends that are ongoing with boards in general.
> 
> https://www.reddit.com/r/hardware/comments/6atydw/open_but_personal_letter_to_the_pc_components/


Damn, now ASUS is in that position with root kits and fake VRM. According to that message, we should boycott Asus for the Z390 generation.

Maybe that’s why he left? (Not putting words in his mouth. These are my own conclusions.)


----------



## tostitobandito

bee144 said:


> Damn, now ASUS is in that position with root kits and fake VRM. According to that message, we should boycott Asus for the Z390 generation.
> 
> Maybe that’s why he left? (Not putting words in his mouth. These are my own conclusions.)



I think this situation is a bit different. In that thread he's talking about vendors not even trying to put out boards with meaningful and functional overclocking features. With the Z390 it's more of a case of their marketing department coining some dubious terms like "twin 8 phase", while the boards themselves more or less work as advertised and have the full suite of OC features/capability you'd expect. Other arguments could also be made around Asus's pricing or perhaps whether their strategy of not chasing phase count (like everyone else seems to) is wise for sales, even if it's not necessary for performance.


----------



## Alex11223

Nizzen said:


> Asus *z390* is listed here in Norway for 4990 NOK
> Asus z390 Gene is listed in Norway for 3690 NOK
> 
> I use z390 Gene for my 9900k


z390 what?

Gene is mATX, only two memory slots


----------



## Nizzen

Alex11223 said:


> Nizzen said:
> 
> 
> 
> Asus *z390* is listed here in Norway for 4990 NOK
> Asus z390 Gene is listed in Norway for 3690 NOK
> 
> I use z390 Gene for my 9900k /forum/images/smilies/smile.gif
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> z390 what?
> 
> Gene is mATX, only two memory slots /forum/images/smilies/frown.gif
Click to expand...

Sorry, forgot to write Apex z390.

I don't need more than 16GB memory for gaming. 32GB+ is still possible.

Have 32 GB ram on my x299 Apex with 7980xe.


----------



## Timur Born

GBT-MatthewH said:


> In terms of VRM if you like the master temps you should see the Xtreme when VRM reviews start coming out... The cooling is insane (4 heat pipes!)
> 
> I would really be asking myself if I will use 10G Lan and/or Tb3. If you simply want the best of the best go for it, but if it were my $ and I am not using these 2 features I would get master. My 2 cents.


Where does the Designare stand in (between) this? It's VRM layout looks quite different from the other two boards, at least going by images.


----------



## GBT-MatthewH

Timur Born said:


> Where does the Designare stand in (between) this? It's VRM layout looks quite different from the other two boards, at least going by images.


Same VRM as Elite/Pro(Wifi)/Ultra - (12+1): 12 * Vishay DrMOS (SiC634) / 6 ISL6117A doublers + 1 * Vishay DrMOS (SiC634).

I'd put it between Ultra and Pro in terms of heatsink. Ultra has a larger heatsink and direct touch heatpipe. Designare heatsink is smaller than ultra but also has direct touch heatpipe.


----------



## jelome1989

Nizzen said:


> Sorry, forgot to write Apex z390.
> 
> I don't need more than 16GB memory for gaming. 32GB+ is still possible.
> 
> Have 32 GB ram on my x299 Apex with 7980xe.


Wait what, Z390 Apex is already available? 
Listing means stock availability correct?


----------



## Robbært

Timur Born said:


> Where does the Designare stand in (between) this? It's VRM layout looks quite different from the other two boards, at least going by images.


Designare seems to be more practical board, DisplayPort In, QUADRO, PCIe CPU, Thunderbolt and only $270


----------



## zool65

Still run my P67 sabertoot as a second computer 2[email protected] it can monitor the vram my my Hero X can not have the bad v of the hero yes mayby the copper prices have skyrocketed but if i look at the Aurus Masters heat sink it has dual fins an thats a cheper bord compered to my hero X and it has
6+2 phase mode. The 12 phases are doubled up by IR3599, and each of those phases is an IR3553 40A PowIRstage .

Read more: https://www.tweaktown.com/reviews/8...s-master-intel-motherboard-review/index2.html


----------



## AlphaC

Solarity said:


> AlphaC, could you please post a link for your different VRM rating charts? It would help a lot as I like to reference it.


Z87 through Z270 nobody really cared since it's all 4 cores. We had threads for that and until Z170 or so Steven from Tweaktown still had sinshardware up online so he had a chart already (hence no motivation to do it). I still have a local copy of it but I'm not going to post his content since I don't own it when he can re-upload it on tweaktown or somewhere. Actually br0da started making the lists around this time for Z170/Z270. Asrock was using NexFETs on their mid level boards such as Extreme 6 back in Z87.

Only made one for Z370 because it was copy paste jobs from quadcore VRM on ASUS + Gigabyte at the mid level , with MSI close to being as bad (all of them except Asrock midrange K6 + Extreme 4). Basically it was a nudge for manufacturers to get their act together .

For AM4 it's pretty straightforward as below X470 top tier (except MSI M7) you basically have a bunch of 4 phase two high+low side mosfet per PWM channel setups except for ASUS x470 Pro (6x 40A IR3553) and STRIX X470-F (6x 60A IR3555). There's a few outliers but generally other than the B450 Pro Carbon there's not much at the B450 level worth buying and the B450 Pro Carbon is basically roughly equal to a mid level X470 from Asrock/Gigabyte/MSI , albeit it has its own issues with PBO.
https://www.hardwareluxx.de/community/f12/pga-am4-mainboard-vrm-liste-1155146.html

X99: https://www.overclock.net/forum/6-intel-motherboards/1518458-x99-vrm-discussion-thread.html
Haven't seen CrazyElf around a lot anymore. Kind of had it filled in to a point.

For X299 I think the only one that uses a garbage setup is the MSI low midrange such as X299 SLI PLUS & Tomahawk, they're using Low RDS(on) Powerpaks on both sides of the board when everyone else is using Powerstages. Elmor tested that and when every other board was putting out 250W on the first round of X299 they could only handle ~ 175W. I made a thread on that but other than the first real showing of ISL99227B smart powerstages from Asrock and later Gigabyte (delayed a lot), not much is notable other than the heatsink surface area.
https://www.hardwareluxx.de/community/f12/lga-2066-mainboard-vrm-liste-1167715.html

X399 everyone is using more or less the same powerstages so br0da's list is_ very easy_ to use and get a picture of the X399 board landscape. Gigabyte has since put out boards with IR3575 thermally enhanced powerstages but they had a weaker 50A IR3556 powerstage compared to every other vendors' IR3555 (which has the same footprint so I don't understand that choice TBH).
https://www.hardwareluxx.de/community/f12/lga-tr4-mainboard-vrm-liste-1171058.html

The problem with highlighting VRM limit concerns on a gaming oriented channel like Hardware Unboxed is pretty evident. It's why unless the VRM is absolutely atrocious you won't see me posting about it in threads not asking about the VRM. Youtube & other social media viewers are less concerned about the technical limitations and reliability / thermal aspect of it and more on the branding and kneejerk reactions " (vendor) boards are garbage". It's an indictment of the _one sentence_ twitter culture. That's one of the reasons why I avoid using the brand name and use the model name , i.e. K6 , Taichi , or ROG Hero.

Is there a socket you are interested in particular?



Timur Born said:


> Where does the Designare stand in (between) this? It's VRM layout looks quite different from the other two boards, at least going by images.


 Designare has been stated to have the same VRM design as the Ultra + Pro (12x SiC634 via ISL6617 doublers), with a direct touch heatpipe similar to the Ultra / Master. So it's above the Pro WIFI but you're paying a bit extra for Thunderbolt and dual LAN. It lacks a debug code LED from the Ultra but retains debug status lights.

It is good enough for most people (including content creators and people that actually intend to use FFTs for non-stress testing purposes) and arguably better than the ROG Hero. I don't like the VRM heatsink design on the Designare but the featureset (PS/2 port , WIFI , Thunderbolt 3 , and Dual LAN) make it a rather compelling option given the $270 MSRP.



asdkj1740 said:


> see this first time, i almost cry.


Happens in every industry. Go where the money is (customer wants) not where you want unless you want to go out of business. If everyone is selling black umbrellas and you are selling white ones unless you're a boutique shop that people go to for white umbrellas you're out of business. The only thing that will change this is if people stop buying overpriced RGB gaming branded garbage that costs at most $10 to make light up.

WS2812B addressable RGB LED: https://octopart.com/search?q=WS2812B&start=0

The other underlying problem is the desktop market especially _non-gaming _DIY isn't very strong relative to the mobile market (cell phones, laptops, tablets). Outside of OCUK ,Boxx, Maingear, Origin PC, Caseking , Xi Computer, Falcon NW, ScanUK, a handful of Alienware, & CyberpowerPC there's not many places that offer overclocked desktops in the Western hemisphere.




Robbært said:


> Designare seems to be more practical board, DisplayPort In, QUADRO, PCIe CPU, Thunderbolt and only $270


You don't need a special motherboard to run a Nvidia Quadro. Maybe it is certified to work in the board, but that's about it. Similar to how you can run a Geforce or Radeon non-Pro card in a variety of applications but you can't expect any bugs or performance issues to be ironed out (especially bad on Geforce).


----------



## Shiftstealth

AlphaC said:


> Z370-E STRIX appears to be exclusively Vishay SiRA12 + SiRA14dp. I haven't seen an Onsemi version.
> 
> Z370-A seems to have two variants. One is the same as the Z370-E STRIX and Z370-F STRIX. One has OnSemi 4C09 + 4C06 similar to Gigabyte's boards. It's likely a supplier variance. Because of it's status as a volume board there needs to be an alternate part when the Vishay mosfet parts are not available or low stock.
> 
> The Z370-A's Vishay variant seems to heat up more (per reviews) for whatever reason. On paper the Vishay variant has faster switching times but that is going to be limited by the dual driver used. It's believed to be a Richtek part.
> 
> Unless you are thinking of pushing over 20A per mosfet (so over 160A to the CPU, which is over Intel's 138A spec) I wouldn't worry too much about it. The SirA12dp is package limited to 25A. If you cool the VRM both should have comparable results if ASUS felt they are interchangeable. If you aren't using AVX2 instructions (such as rendering or encoding) you will likely not see any thermal limitations, since you would need to push roughly 160-180W before you see the mosfets start to hit a higher temperature and even a 5GHz CPU will consume ~140-150W if not using AVX instructions. The design operating point was clearly non-delidded chips that are Intel TIM limited to around 140-150W.
> 
> Asrock's Fatal1ty K6 or Extreme4 have a better setup for similar monetary outlay (i.e. price) but if you can find the Z370-A or Z370-E for cheap (<$130) I wouldn't hesitate to buy them provided you update your BIOS to avoid LLC issues.
> 
> In summary, if you aren't going for a $200+ MSRP *** "high end" board (such as Gigabyte Gaming 7, Asus ROG Apex/Formula/Hero, or Asrock Taichi), I would still recommend the Asrock K6 or Extreme4. The Extreme4 has been recommended by PC Gameshardware.de, hardware.info, hardwareunboxed, etc. The K6 is a slightly better version of it with Debug LED, dual LAN, an external base clock generator, & power/reset buttons. To get a Debug LED on other vendors' midrange boards you need to buy a MSI M5 , or Gigabyte Gaming 5.
> 
> In fact Level1techs also uploaded a new video on the Extreme4 to explore how Asrock cut costs and they couldn't find anything major (even though I listed what they cut in the above paragraph):
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=guoufY-F97I
> 
> K6 voltage regulator overview on hardwaresecrets http://www.hardwaresecrets.com/asrock-fatal1ty-z370-gaming-k6-motherboard/5/
> 
> *** MSRP doesn't mean much. A product is only worth how much people are willing to pay for it! The massive drop on boards valued at $180-200 such as the Z370-F STRIX , Z370 Pro Carbon & M5, and Z370 Ultra Gaming 2.0 demonstrates it. Those boards were worth about 20% more at launch and now they are all around the $150 area.



Hey man, I know i've asked you a lot of things, and i appreciate the help. I was just looking for a *little* bit more help. Got the i9 9900k in the Z370-A seems to work well. I have it at 4.9Ghz @1.225v 

With those settings i see the following package power:
XTU Stress Test Package power - 103W
CPUZ Stress Test Package power - 134W
Realbench Stress Test Package power - 145W


Do you think those are sustainable on the Z370-A? I wish i had a way to view VRM temperatures, but sadly i don't have a heat gun. From research i've done i've seen that an i5 4690K could pull around 150-160W when heavily overclocked so i feel that 145W in the realbench is an extremely safe load for the motherboard.

The question i have for you is how rough would it be on my motherboard if i see those 160-180W peaks that you mentioned "heat up" the motherboard. From what i've read the Mosfets are good to 125C, and i *might* hit 160W rarely, and only for a few seconds, but i'd be curious as to what "heat up" means in regards to that.

Thanks for all you do for the community!


----------



## Timur Born

Robbært said:


> Designare seems to be more practical board, DisplayPort In, QUADRO, PCIe CPU, Thunderbolt and only $270


The Designare is about 30 EUR more expensive than the Master around here. A Gigabyte addin Thunderbolt card costs about 50 EUR and uses the 4x PCIe slot, the Designare lacks one 1x PCIe slot above the x16 slot, though.

Unfortunately the back-panel USB 3.0 ports seem to be run via a hub on the Designare. What use for "DAC UP" ports if they are run via hub? Anyway, this is about VRM setups. So what is the verdict of the "12+1" solution on the Designare for overclocking a 9900K?


----------



## AlphaC

*For Z370-A *

145W with 1.225V VCore is around 30A per 2 high/low side fets and since SIRA14dp+SIRA12dp is more common we'll assume that it is the layout to use.

No idea on what the ASP1400BT full specifications are so let's just use ISL6625A , for 5V V_GS , for each pair of high/low side fets:
From onsemi efficiency calculator (http://m.onsemi.com/support/documents?type=tools) at 30A for 2,
Low side Conduction: 2.66W 
Dead time loss: 309mW 
total low side ~ 3W (per pair)

High side switching: ~1.1W for 2 ~ 0.6 mW 
High side conduction: ~0.5W for 2 ~ 0.25W
total high side : ~1.6W per pair

HS Driver loss = 57mW
LS Driver loss = 99mW

Inductor winding loss (R68 inductor) ~ 1.5W <-- not sure on this inductor
5K hour APAQ Capacitor = 8milliohms resistance for each 560uF , we don't know how the capacitors are wired up

PCB Loss ~ 1W assuming 1 milliohm resistance

High and low side are both around 70°C/W maximum steady state thermal resistance to ambient, if your heatsink is bad it will be horrific but as a baseline that gives you around +105°C for low side _fet but we have a heatsink_
_* _The Onsemi variant has 50°C/W to ambient stated on the spec sheet but without any note on it being steady state , only maximum.

With a more realistic ~28°C/W (the non steady state figure given by Vishay) in the 1"x1" board area test case we obtain around 80°C if the board temp is around 30°C , not accounting for around 1W of PCB losses

High side fet has a stated 34°C/W non steady state figure , which would also put it in the mid 80s easily

*4c09+4c06 *

For a board with 4c09+4c06 per the Onsemi calculator we're looking at:
~2.31W low side conduction per pair
deadtime ~ 0.35W per pair
diode / reverse recovery ~0.16W per pair

~1.4W high side switching per pair
~0.48W high side conduction per pair

HS driver loss ~ 55mW per 2
LS driver loss ~58mW per 2

----

Method 2:

Using AN-6005 (https://www.fairchildsemi.com/application-notes/AN/AN-6005.pdf) methodology and max RDS(on) and switch time values at V_GS=4.5V for 1.225V and 118A:
1.12W high side switching , 0.38W high side conduction = total ~1.5W for high side fet

*1.* Conduction loss at low side is obtained by (1-D)*(I_out_true)^2**0.5**R_DS(on),LS where D is the duty cycle (about 0.1) and I_out_true is the current per PWM phase , a 0.5 multiplier is added to represent the use of two mosfets per PWM phase to halve the RDS(on)
We obtain 2.34W for low side conduction loss per low side mosfet through this way , otherwise you'd end up with 1.17W via "halving the current"
---> This is the reason why doubling is so contentious for high RDS(on) Powerpaks such as 4c06n and I don't give so much weight to it for higher efficiency < 2 milliohm RDs(on) designs such as NexFETs & powerblocks

*2.* Dead time loss is obtained by P_DIODE = t_DEADTIME •F_SW • V_F •I_OUT , where deadtime is approximated by turn on + turn off delay times (not rise/fall times) and for V_F you use diode forward voltage
---> It's around 0.25W for deadtime loss
Total ~ 2.66W per each ---> resulting temperature around 100°C based off 30°C board temp "ambient" with 28°C/W thermal resistance

3. Q_RR reverse recovery loss is obtained from P_QRR = Q_RR • V_IN •f_SW and using typical Q_RR values for SIRA12dp you obtain around 0.05W , this is considered for low side losses

If you use the 1.17W low side conduction loss obtained by halving the current as if it were doubled you get an an unrealistic ~1.4W total and ~+40°C relative to ambient/board temp which is why I am doubtful on that.

Gate drive losses obtained by Q_G for the high and low side totaled around 0.16W so there's low discrepancy there.

Mosfet capacitive losses from C_OSS are really low in the order of 0.01W , if you want to obtain it: 0.5*C_OSS*V_In^2*f_sw

Any way you cut it the board is going to start to struggle at around 180W (been shown multiple times in this thread) so you have maybe a few amps to spare (130A) since it doesn't exist in an ideal scenario especially since SiRA12dp is package limited to 25A each at any temperature. Efficiency at 5V V_GS should be in the mid 80 percentiles (even at V_GS=10V you're looking at around 85% for the load you stated), the new Z390-A has ~ 91% efficiency at those sort of loads since it is well within the peak efficiency area (see NCP302045 http://www.onsemi.com/pub/Collateral/NCP302045-D.PDF). The loss at ~15A per powerstage is around 1.5W.

Vishay has taken down the datasheets for SIRA12dp but I have attached it for your own inspection & verification.

--------------

TUF Pro , AIDA64 FPU + i7-9700k choke temp 68,4°C while cooled by NH-U14S

https://ru.gecid.com/mboard/asus_tuf_z390-pro_gaming/?s=0

STRIX Z390-F spotted with the SiC639 Powerstage : https://www.ocaholic.ch/modules/ext...tart=15&id=1323&orderby=ASC&sortby=photo_name

Taichi confirmation of TI NexFET 87350 for vcore
https://www.ocaholic.ch/modules/ext...tart=15&id=1324&orderby=ASC&sortby=photo_name

Phantom ITX with ISL99227B

https://www.ocaholic.ch/modules/ext...tart=30&id=1322&orderby=ASC&sortby=photo_name

--------------



sdch said:


> @*AlphaC* , would you mind doing a quick estimated power loss budget for the Asus ROG Strix Z390-I and ASRock Z390 Phantom Gaming-ITX/ac, given the latest information we have on both boards? Let's assume 9900K ~5GHz OC, so ~200A draw or whatever you think appropriate, in a power virus scenario. Major props to your commitment to this thread.


Oh those are really quick since you can read the curves :thumb:

STRIX z390-I has been stated by elmor to use only 3 phases and we're not given the RDS(on) component of the losses. I'm not sure how that pans out, I thought it was in 6+2 PWM configuration. However we do know it uses NCP302045 http://www.onsemi.com/pub/Collateral/NCP302045-D.PDF

The i9-9900k spec been capped at 193A max , unless the motherboard doesn't limit it. However in practice (non AVX) many people are getting ~ 170-200W with ~1.3V , which I would just round to ~160A to make it an even number.

160A over 6 powerstages is around 27A each. From figure 7 we obtain ~3.5W of losses per powerstage. From figure 12 for an output voltage of 1.3V you end up with a 1.05x normalization factor , so suppose it is ~3.7W. This would mean with their quoted 12.4°C/W it's about +46°C relative to ambient / board temperature which would be around 80°C. However I would caution trusting 12.4°C/W number, it is likely higher on that packed PCB even with the IO shield heatsink.

If you're pushing a full 193A then it's about 4.7W of losses per powerstage which with their quoted thermal resistance is into the 90°C range.

For the Phantom ITX/ac with the heatpipe , the ISL99227B has a higher efficiency which allows for a 5 phase to compete. We know on the Z370 version it is capable of 200W. At 193A over 5 phases you're looking at around 4.5W , at 160A over 5 phases you're looking at a bit over 2.5W (much safer) per figure 10.

https://www.intersil.com/content/dam/Intersil/documents/isl9/isl99227-27b.pdf

The thermal resistance is stated at 10.7°C/W which is lower and at 400LFM of airflow you have 9.3°C/W. With those sort of numbers you'll end up with ~60-75°C . Once again I would caution following these thermal resistance numbers since they assume a large PCB to dissipate heat. However it is quite apparent the Phantom ITX is a superior board not only due to 5 PWM phases but also due to the higher efficiency.


----------



## sdch

@AlphaC, would you mind doing a quick estimated power loss budget for the Asus ROG Strix Z390-I and ASRock Z390 Phantom Gaming-ITX/ac, given the latest information we have on both boards? Let's assume 9900K ~5GHz OC, so ~200A draw or whatever you think appropriate, in a power virus scenario. Major props to your commitment to this thread.


@AlphaC, thanks a ton. I'll digest this laster. +rep


----------



## Shiftstealth

AlphaC said:


> *For Z370-A *
> 
> 145W with 1.225V VCore is around 30A per 2 high/low side fets and since SIRA14dp+SIRA12dp is more common we'll assume that it is the layout to use.
> 
> No idea on what the ASP1400BT full specifications are so let's just use ISL6625A , for 5V V_GS , for each pair of high/low side fets:
> From onsemi efficiency calculator (http://m.onsemi.com/support/documents?type=tools) at 30A for 2,
> Low side Conduction: 2.66W
> Dead time loss: 309mW
> total low side ~ 3W (per pair)
> 
> High side switching: ~1.1W for 2 ~ 0.6 mW
> High side conduction: ~0.5W for 2 ~ 0.25W
> total high side : ~1.6W per pair
> 
> HS Driver loss = 57mW
> LS Driver loss = 99mW
> 
> Inductor winding loss (R68 inductor) ~ 1.5W <-- not sure on this inductor
> 5K hour APAQ Capacitor = 8milliohms resistance for each 560uF , we don't know how the capacitors are wired up
> 
> PCB Loss ~ 1W assuming 1 milliohm resistance
> 
> High and low side are both around 70°C/W maximum steady state thermal resistance to ambient, if your heatsink is bad it will be horrific but as a baseline that gives you around +105°C for low side _fet but we have a heatsink_
> _* _The Onsemi variant has 50°C/W to ambient stated on the spec sheet but without any note on it being steady state , only maximum.
> 
> With a more realistic ~28°C/W (the non steady state figure given by Vishay) in the 1"x1" board area test case we obtain around 80°C if the board temp is around 30°C , not accounting for around 1W of PCB losses
> 
> High side fet has a stated 34°C/W non steady state figure , which would also put it in the mid 80s easily
> 
> *4c09+4c06 *
> 
> For a board with 4c09+4c06 per the Onsemi calculator we're looking at:
> ~2.31W low side conduction per pair
> 
> deadtime ~ 0.35W per pair
> diode / reverse recovery ~0.16W per pair
> 
> ~1.4W high side switching per pair
> 
> ~0.48W high side conduction per pair
> 
> HS driver loss ~ 55mW per 2
> 
> LS driver loss ~58mW per 2
> 
> ----
> 
> Method 2:
> 
> Using AN-6005 (https://www.fairchildsemi.com/application-notes/AN/AN-6005.pdf) methodology and max RDS(on) and switch time values at V_GS=4.5V for 1.225V and 118A:
> 1.12W high side switching , 0.38W high side conduction = total ~1.5W for high side fet
> 
> *1.* Conduction loss at low side is obtained by (1-D)*(I_out_true)^2**0.5**R_DS(on),LS where D is the duty cycle (about 0.1) and I_out_true is the current per PWM phase , a 0.5 multiplier is added to represent the use of two mosfets per PWM phase to halve the RDS(on)
> We obtain 2.34W for low side conduction loss per low side mosfet through this way , otherwise you'd end up with 1.17W via "halving the current"
> ---> This is the reason why doubling is so contentious for high RDS(on) Powerpaks such as 4c06n and I don't give so much weight to it for higher efficiency < 2 milliohm RDs(on) designs such as NexFETs & powerblocks
> 
> *2.* Dead time loss is obtained by P_DIODE = t_DEADTIME •F_SW • V_F •I_OUT , where deadtime is approximated by turn on + turn off delay times (not rise/fall times) and for V_F you use diode forward voltage
> ---> It's around 0.25W for deadtime loss
> Total ~ 2.66W per each ---> resulting temperature around 100°C based off 30°C board temp "ambient" with 28°C/W thermal resistance
> 
> 3. Q_RR reverse recovery loss is obtained from P_QRR = Q_RR • V_IN •f_SW and using typical Q_RR values for SIRA12dp you obtain around 0.05W , this is considered for low side losses
> 
> If you use the 1.17W low side conduction loss obtained by halving the current as if it were doubled you get an an unrealistic ~1.4W total and ~+40°C relative to ambient/board temp which is why I am doubtful on that.
> 
> Gate drive losses obtained by Q_G for the high and low side totaled around 0.16W so there's low discrepancy there.
> 
> Mosfet capacitive losses from C_OSS are really low in the order of 0.01W , if you want to obtain it: 0.5*C_OSS*V_In^2*f_sw
> 
> Any way you cut it the board is going to start to struggle at around 180W (been shown multiple times in this thread) so you have maybe a few amps to spare (130A) since it doesn't exist in an ideal scenario especially since SiRA12dp is package limited to 25A each at any temperature. Efficiency at 5V V_GS should be in the mid 80 percentiles (even at V_GS=10V you're looking at around 85% for the load you stated), the new Z390-A has ~ 91% efficiency at those sort of loads since it is well within the peak efficiency area (see NCP302045 http://www.onsemi.com/pub/Collateral/NCP302045-D.PDF). The loss at ~15A per powerstage is around 1.5W.
> 
> Vishay has taken down the datasheets for SIRA12dp but I have attached it for your own inspection & verification.
> 
> --------------
> 
> TUF Pro , AIDA64 FPU + i7-9700k choke temp 68,4°C while cooled by NH-U14S
> 
> https://ru.gecid.com/mboard/asus_tuf_z390-pro_gaming/?s=0


Thanks for the detailed output. I appreciate it even if i have trouble following it. 80C-90C seems to be safe albeit uncomfortable temperatures for the VRM's considering they quote 125C as still allowing long term functionality. Considering the highest, normal load i put through it ATM is BO4 @ 115W I'm probably more than safe. Especially with 5 120mm fans running in the case.

With the fans, and 115W COD4 load i hope a safe ballpark uneducated assumption is about 70C while gaming. Which seems pretty reasonable for longevity.

I think i might have to turn down the clocks to [email protected] or lower when games utilize the cpu more in a few years, and thus higher package powers.


----------



## thedeceiver

Here in the US was hoping to get a XI Gene but not sure how likely that is. Anyone know of a good reliable place to source one from without breaking the bank? If not the Gene what is the next best mATX/ITX board for moderate OCs? Maybe paired with a 9700k or or 8086k? Thanks in advance.


----------



## LordSilver

Hello, could somebody please point me out to the best Z390 motherboard I can get in the 200-250 EUR price range? I was initially thinking either MSI MPG Z390 GAMING PRO CARBON AC (217 EUR) or ASUS ROG STRIX Z390-E GAMING (250 EUR), but after reading all the bad things about ASUS VRMs getting crazy hot (expecially bad reviews on Z390-E and Maximus XI Hero) and even crashes while using their integrated Wi-Fi, I'm probably going to dodge their brand. There would be also the MSI ACE (260 EUR), but there I'm worried about the Msi Killer NIC which has caused tons of problems to many people in the past, so I'd rather stay with Intel on that side.

Eventually I'm still considering the MSI Carbon Pro AC (217 EUR) and the ASRock Taichi non-Ultimate (240 EUR). I would pick the first one if you guy say it's good since it's cheaper, it has everything I want and I like it more as it comes down to aestethics.

Also, is it true that the ASUS Maximus XI Hero has only 4 VRMs instead of the 8 declared? How do you count them on the PCB?


----------



## F-man4

Duality92 said:


> What do you guys think about a 9900K on a Gigabyte Z370N WiFi


Boooooom at stock.
The VRM had already been 99C on running 8700 AVX2.


----------



## F-man4

porksmuggler said:


> marcolisi said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hey guys, I am still waiting for the asus maximus XI extreme that I pre-ordered but I just received the i9 9900K cpu.
> 
> I own a asus z170 deluxe.
> 
> Do you know if the i9 9900K would work on the z170 deluxe?
> 
> If yes, Would it be worthed to temporary mount the i9 9900K on the z170 motherboard , or not?
> 
> 
> 
> Not compatible, sorry.
> 
> Edit: More info, if you're interested.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGA_1151
Click to expand...

You should know Z170 BIOS can be modified for 8th Gen
(which made Maximus VIII Impact SUPERIOR to all 8th Gen ITXes)

Anyway, unless you own a Z170(M) OCF, you can't expect any modified Z170 to be enough for 9900K OC.


----------



## Astral85

This mentions some of the power circuit components on the Maximus X Hero: https://nl.hardware.info/product/413349/asus-rog-maximus-x-hero/specificaties


----------



## vvoid

AlphaC said:


> *For Z370-A *
> STRIX Z390-F spotted with the SiC639 Powerstage : https://www.ocaholic.ch/modules/ext...tart=15&id=1323&orderby=ASC&sortby=photo_name


STRIX Z390-F with SiC639 seems to be identical to Hero/Code/Formula VRM-wise. Ok, the heatsinks are all a bit different, but that's all difference there is in regards to VRM design, right?
Any other major differences between Hero and Z390-F I should know about? Thanks!


----------



## Zammin

LordSilver said:


> Also, is it true that the ASUS Maximus XI Hero has only 4 VRMs instead of the 8 declared? How do you count them on the PCB?


It's a 4-phase VRM with 8 power stages (mosfets). ASUS' advertising where they say all their Z390 ATX motherboards have at least 8 power phases is misleading advertising.


----------



## Telstar

LordSilver said:


> Hello, could somebody please point me out to the best Z390 motherboard I can get in the 200-250 EUR price range??


Aorus z390 ultra at around 220. You may want to consider also the Asrock Taichi (not sure of price, may be 250 or more in your country).


----------



## toncij

So, in general, if we want to run all cores 9900K at 1.35V-1.4V (water-cooled) with AVX, where to go? What is the best board to get? 10GbE would be great to have, so I guess GB Aorus Xtreme? Abandoning Asus EFI is worth it I guess.

Not really sure my Asus X Formula can handle 9900 at 1.35V at full load. So far tested only for short bursts, no rendering thus far. Phantom ITX looks better on paper.


----------



## eric98k

Buildzoid PCB breakdown: Gigabyte Z390 Aorus Xtreme

Dual BIOS switch & S/H mode switch
No PLX PCIe switch, last PCIex16 slot wired to PCH, optional PCIe power connector unnecessary
Extra 8-pin EPS power connector unnecessary except for sub-zero OC
VRM super efficient, heatsink becomes unnecessary
VCC: PWM IR35201 (8+0), 16x TDA21462 (60A) DrMOS with doubler IR3599 (no current balancing)
VCCGT: PWM IR35204 (2+0), dual driver IR3598, 2x (4C10N+4C06N)
VCCSA: PWM RT8120 (1), 4C06N 1H1L (reduced package size variant)
VCCIO: PWM RT8120 (1), 4C06N 1H1L (reduced package size variant)
Vmem: PWM RT8120 (1), 4C06N 1H2L
Mem trace T-topology
VCC power loss under 400KHz, 1.3Vout:
- 150A: 12W on 8-phase mode
- 200A: 16W on 12-phase mode
- 250A: 20W on 16-phase mode
- 300A: 24W
- 350A: 28W
- 400A: 34W


----------



## toncij

eric98k said:


> Buildzoid PCB breakdown: Gigabyte Z390 Aorus Xtreme
> Dual BIOS switch & S/H mode switch
> No PLX PCIe switch, last PCIex16 slot wired to PCH
> VRM super efficient, heatsink becomes unnecessary
> VCC: PWM IR35201 (8+0), 16x TDA21462 (60A) DrMOS with doubler IR3599 (no current balancing)
> VCCGT: PWM IR35204 (2+0), dual driver IR3598, 2x (4C10N+4C06N)
> VCCSA: PWM RT8120 (1), 4C06N 1H1L (reduced package size variant)
> VCCIO: PWM RT8120 (1), 4C06N 1H1L (reduced package size variant)
> Vmem: PWM RT8120 (1), 4C06N 1H2L
> Mem trace T-topology
> VCC power loss under 400KHz, 1.3Vout
> - 150A: 12W on 8-phase mode
> - 200A: 16W on 12-phase mode
> - 250A: 20W on 16-phase mode
> - 300A: 24W
> - 350A: 28W
> - 400A: 34W
> https://youtu.be/cl945TWWEg8


That's impressive!


----------



## eric98k

Timur Born said:


> The Designare is about 30 EUR more expensive than the Master around here. A Gigabyte addin Thunderbolt card costs about 50 EUR and uses the 4x PCIe slot, the Designare lacks one 1x PCIe slot above the x16 slot, though.


Designare also supports x8+x4+x4 enabling NVMe RAID via CPU lanes.


----------



## LordSilver

Telstar said:


> Aorus z390 ultra at around 220. You may want to consider also the Asrock Taichi (not sure of price, may be 250 or more in your country).


I'd rather avoid Gigabyte as I don't really like their software suite. So my question is: how much worse is MSI Carbon Pro AC (194€) compared to ASRock Taichi (242€)? I will be using either a i7 8700 (non-K) or i5 8600K/9600K, so I probably don't require an insanely good mobo. Just wondering if it's worth spending those extra 50€ or not.


----------



## HKPolice

GBT-MatthewH said:


> It's kind of on an island therefore does not have any thermal build up from surrounding (in this case lack of surrounding) components. In the past we generally don't cover this area on ITX. (See Z370N WIFI https://www.gigabyte.com/Motherboard/Z370N-WIFI-rev-10#kf )
> 
> 
> 
> I'll ask!
> 
> Edit: Runs off standard 5V.


That's disappointing. According to Infineon's datasheet, the IR3553 has 17% higher power loss when run @ 5v instead of 7v: https://www.infineon.com/dgdl/ir3553.pdf?fileId=5546d462533600a4015355cd94ee1767


----------



## INGRAMLI

For me none of the brand is good enough when we talk about Z390.
Asus: Poor value for money (as usual), and epic fail marketing this time (I still choose M11H though as i dont really have much choice to choose from after evaluating all the alternatives)
Gigabyte: Poor BIOS (My Z170X-UD5 couldnt get the RAM perform properly either xmp or manual for anything beyond 2666, even using the latest BIOS 3 years after first release)
MSI: Meh VRM config (with the exception of GODLIKE, but then i cant fit a EATX board in my case), and no choice for Intel Lan (I dont like Killer Lan, and MSI dont offer me a choice)
Asrock: Good value for money, but too many bad reputation from people i know for numerous issues (from fail to boot for unknown reason to many other issues else), no thank you.


----------



## Subby

my VRM temps looked good so far on my z390 MSI Pro Carbon w/ 9700k at 5ghz, which "realistic" stress tests are you guys using to watch VRM temps?


----------



## KedarWolf

Subby said:


> my VRM temps looked good so far on my z390 MSI Pro Carbon w/ 9700k at 5ghz, which "realistic" stress tests are you guys using to watch VRM temps?


I use RealBench and have the memory set at 16GB of my 32GB of RAM in the stress test. If you run 32GB on 32GB of RAM in it it'll use the page file or crash if you have the page file disabled like I do on my RAID 0 M.2's.


----------



## The L33t

toncij said:


> So, in general, if we want to run all cores 9900K at 1.35V-1.4V (water-cooled) with AVX, where to go? What is the best board to get? 10GbE would be great to have, so I guess GB Aorus Xtreme? Abandoning Asus EFI is worth it I guess.
> /forum/images/smilies/biggrin.gif


The Taichi Ultimate seems like a fine model, very well priced and with the 10Gbe covered. Unless you really need TB3 or dislike Asrock for some reason, why spend 250 more on the extreme?


----------



## AlphaC

vvoid said:


> STRIX Z390-F with SiC639 seems to be identical to Hero/Code/Formula VRM-wise. Ok, the heatsinks are all a bit different, but that's all difference there is in regards to VRM design, right?
> Any other major differences between Hero and Z390-F I should know about? Thanks!


 Other than QOL features (such as debug LED/power reset/clear CMOS , LN2 + slow mode switch) and maybe audio improvements (ESS DAC), the VRM on the STRIX Z390-E and Z390-F are using different inductors and fewer output capacitors. The Maximus XI Hero also has a heatpiped heatsink. The STRIX's capacitors are 5K hour rated capacitors and there's a korean site that believes the "MIL 5K" is from APAQ (Taiwan) rather than a Japanese manufacturer such as Nichicon or Chemicon.


Also I think the memory layout and power delivery is different , which might explain the difference in guaranteed memory speeds (4266MHz vs 4400MHz).

Side by side SiC639 variants:











LordSilver said:


> I'd rather avoid Gigabyte as I don't really like their software suite. So my question is: how much worse is MSI Carbon Pro AC (194€) compared to ASRock Taichi (242€)? I will be using either a i7 8700 (non-K) or i5 8600K/9600K, so I probably don't require an insanely good mobo. Just wondering if it's worth spending those extra 50€ or not.


I would advise buying the Taichi if you intend to upgrade in the future or save money with Edge AC especially if you don't intend to use the WIFI on the Pro Carbon. The Edge AC has 433Mbps WiFI but just about every other feature is there from the Pro Carbon and the heatsink is much larger and uncovered on the Edge AC.


For a i7-8700 non-K you can buy the cheapest z390 board out there but I would avoid doing that since the cheapest boards tend to have cut down IO , build quality, cooling features (such as thermal sensors and fan headers), and audio. If you factor in audio the minimum boards for each brand that have ALC1220 are :
*Asrock* z390 Extreme4 ~170 USD/EURO

*Asus *Z390-A (relatively the same price as a STRIX Z390-H so nobody should really buy the z390-H) with AI OC ~190 USD / ~170 EURO

*Gigabyte *Z390 Gaming SLI ~ 150 USD/EURO without toslink , the lowest one with toslink would be Z390 Aorus Elite which is around 170 USD/EURO or the ITX one around 160USD

*MSI *Z390M Edge (mATX) ~170 USD / ~160 EURO




anticommon said:


> Going from a 8700k to 9900k is it even worth upgrading from z370 gaming 7? My understanding was the gaming 7 vrm is overbuilt and seeing as some of the z390 boards (hero xi...) have pretty shotty vrms but can still handle the 9900k then why bother with an 'upgrade'? Feature support? Performance per clock?
> 
> The performance at the same overclock is one of my more major concerns - I would venture a guess that Intel has decided to include some new efficiency features on z390 boards allowing the 9900k to beat an equivalent chip on a z370 board at the same clock speeds. I recall seeing a cinebench score before comparing two similar boards and the z370 was somewhere along the lines of 50pts below the z390 which could be a settings missmatch or even the change one sees from run to run (although 50pts is pushing it).


Z370 Gaming 7 was incredibly overbuilt but the VRM heatsink was pretty lame with focus on RGB and not performance. I cringed when I saw the cross section of the heatsink, there's a air gap inside for the LEDs which is insulating. The Intel power spec was changed for 9th gen which is why you could expect whatever tuning they had for z370 was a bit looser. If you decide to use z370 G7 with an octocore and render on it or do something with AVX, there's a monoblock available for it that would put it on par with at least the Z370/Z390 ROG Formula boards.








If I were in your position I wouldn't buy a new board, I'd try the z370 G7 with whatever workloads you normally use and gauge if the temperatures are OK for the intended lifespan of your build. i.e. if it's running 85-90°C _hypothetically_ * I would think about how to cool it properly (whether it is better thermal pads , a monoblock, removing the RGB nonsense on top), otherwise it's basically usable.


* The VRM fan underneath the IO shroud on the Z370 G7 turns on at 90°C.




SoldierRBT said:


> Hi,
> 
> I currently have a MSI Z370 Gaming Pro Carbon AC motherboard with an 8086K OC to 5.0GHz at 1.256v. I'd like to upgrade to a MSI MEG Z390 ACE. Are the VRMs on the MSI MEG Z390 ACE much better than the ones on the Z370 Gaming Carbon Pro? Will I be able to run the 8086K at lower voltage on the MEG Z390 ACE?


Ace is a better board because the z370 Pro Carbon AC is using only 8 mosfets in total without doublers and the heatsink is really not great. I don't think it's worth the money to upgrade to it unless you plan on getting an octocore (or you're using AVX on your hexcore without offsets) especially when it is still $250. Maybe if it drops in price during Black Friday or something and provided you can get a decent buyer for your Pro Carbon around $150.


----------



## anticommon

Going from a 8700k to 9900k is it even worth upgrading from z370 gaming 7? My understanding was the gaming 7 vrm is overbuilt and seeing as some of the z390 boards (hero xi...) have pretty shotty vrms but can still handle the 9900k then why bother with an 'upgrade'? Feature support? Performance per clock? 

The performance at the same overclock is one of my more major concerns - I would venture a guess that Intel has decided to include some new efficiency features on z390 boards allowing the 9900k to beat an equivalent chip on a z370 board at the same clock speeds. I recall seeing a cinebench score before comparing two similar boards and the z370 was somewhere along the lines of 50pts below the z390 which could be a settings missmatch or even the change one sees from run to run (although 50pts is pushing it).


----------



## SoldierRBT

Hi, 

I currently have a MSI Z370 Gaming Pro Carbon AC motherboard with an 8086K OC to 5.0GHz at 1.256v. I'd like to upgrade to a MSI MEG Z390 ACE. Are the VRMs on the MSI MEG Z390 ACE much better than the ones on the Z370 Gaming Carbon Pro? Will I be able to run the 8086K at lower voltage on the MEG Z390 ACE?


----------



## Robbært

SoldierRBT said:


> I currently have a MSI Z370 Gaming Pro Carbon AC motherboard with an 8086K OC to 5.0GHz at 1.256v. I'd like to upgrade to a MSI MEG Z390 ACE. Are the VRMs on the MSI MEG Z390 ACE much better than the ones on the Z370 Gaming Carbon Pro? Will I be able to run the 8086K at lower voltage on the MEG Z390 ACE?


vrm is upgrade. 8 vs 12 phases.
motherboard upgrade not gonna help with cpu voltage. chip selection can help.



anticommon said:


> Going from a 8700k to 9900k is it even worth upgrading from z370 gaming 7? My understanding was the gaming 7 vrm is overbuilt and seeing as some of the z390 boards (hero xi...) have pretty shotty vrms but can still handle the 9900k then why bother with an 'upgrade'? Feature support? Performance per clock?


(hero xi) 4 phase DrMOS vrm is better than your 10-phase SM7341
hero xi go to 110C(114C) with 0 airflow 9900K OC ~193A
i assume z370 extreme4 has same 10*SM7341 as your gaming7 and extreme4 can go to 130C with 8700K OC ~160A
looking at numbers i would not use z370 extreme4 for 9900K 5GHz.
gaming7 has heatpipe but when it at 130C it not gonna help much.


edit3:
hwtips updated his vrm list
ASUS Z390-H and Z390-Plus Gaming listed as TWIN 4C06+4C10 mosfets ...are they paralleled before or after driver?


----------



## encrypted11

AlphaC said:


> Other than QOL features (such as debug LED/power reset/clear CMOS , LN2 + slow mode switch) and maybe audio improvements (ESS DAC), the VRM on the STRIX Z390-E and Z390-F are using different inductors and fewer output capacitors. The Maximus XI Hero also has a heatpiped heatsink. The STRIX's capacitors are 5K hour rated capacitors and there's a korean site that believes the "MIL 5K" is from APAQ (Taiwan) rather than a Japanese manufacturer such as Nichicon or Chemicon.


I believe the MIL 5K's are Taiwanese APAQs as well.

Here's a pic of the bottom right section of the ASUS X470-I STRIX board (courtesy of a friend that wanted gsat stable memory tuning).
There are a couple of capacitors near the PCIe slot with the Apaq logo including this shot that have accidental leftovers of the apaq branding.

The "MIL" caps are almost likely a marketing BS.


----------



## encrypted11

Continued..
Notice the Apaq logos on the lower side of the board.


----------



## asdkj1740

encrypted11 said:


> Continued..
> Notice the Apaq logos on the lower side of the board.


nice found out!
i believe the mil caps are made by taiwan apaq too.
lots of reviews claim mil caps are japaneses caps, just like saying asus 8 phases are doubled phases with 4 "c1e" ic and asp1400 being used.


----------



## asdkj1740

anticommon said:


> Going from a 8700k to 9900k is it even worth upgrading from z370 gaming 7? My understanding was the gaming 7 vrm is overbuilt and seeing as some of the z390 boards (hero xi...) have pretty shotty vrms but can still handle the 9900k then why bother with an 'upgrade'? Feature support? Performance per clock?
> 
> The performance at the same overclock is one of my more major concerns - I would venture a guess that Intel has decided to include some new efficiency features on z390 boards allowing the 9900k to beat an equivalent chip on a z370 board at the same clock speeds. I recall seeing a cinebench score before comparing two similar boards and the z370 was somewhere along the lines of 50pts below the z390 which could be a settings missmatch or even the change one sees from run to run (although 50pts is pushing it).


if you replace the stock vrm thermal pad, and get the little fan turnning on, then z370 g7 should be able to deal with 9900k.
you should first consider cpu cooling for 9900k.


----------



## asdkj1740

Robbært said:


> edit3:
> hwtips updated his vrm list
> ASUS Z390-H and Z390-Plus Gaming listed as TWIN 4C06+4C10 mosfets ...are they paralleled before or after driver?


z370 taichi is parallel design while z390 taichi is doubling design, but on the chart it said both of them are 5x2.
it also states asus z390 are twin/parallel, so you better focus on mosfet info on this chart only.


----------



## anticommon

asdkj1740 said:


> if you replace the stock vrm thermal pad, and get the little fan turnning on, then z370 g7 should be able to deal with 9900k.
> you should first consider cpu cooling for 9900k.


I'm currently using 2x 360mm rads in a loop with a 2.1ghz 2080 ti and 5.1ghz 8700k which should be a decent enough amount of thermal headroom for the 9900k.

And are the stock pads really that bad on the vrm sink? Would a glob of kryonaut solve this? Or better does anyone know what the thickness/heat transfer rate is for the stock pads?


----------



## cg4200

I am still testing my new Msi ace with 9900k build quality is good I don't like io shield covering part of heatsink a lot of boards do that now I think it traps heat. 
So far good board running good but warm. load line calibration is at 5 cpu core 1.260 adaptive auto 0.20 1.280 total.
With v-points and multimeter 1.30 reading 5.1 all core will pass real bench but ouch hit 96 degrees gaming still testing.
That is with 2 360 black ice dual rads and my titan xp not in loop yet f...k I will have to delid and sand to get safe temps .
Vram does not feel to warm I don't have a heat gun for readings though..
So I would say this board is not the limiting factor Chip luck and quality of solder job
Does asus realbench do avx? I see some people set -2


----------



## cg4200

Does anyone here own a supermicro pgw ? any info on vrm and overclocking with it good bad indifferent? thanks


----------



## Subby

cg4200 said:


> I am still testing my new Msi ace with 9900k build quality is good I don't like io shield covering part of heatsink a lot of boards do that now I think it traps heat.
> So far good board running good but warm. load line calibration is at 5 cpu core 1.260 adaptive auto 0.20 1.280 total.
> With v-points and multimeter 1.30 reading 5.1 all core will pass real bench but ouch hit 96 degrees gaming still testing.
> That is with 2 360 black ice dual rads and my titan xp not in loop yet f...k I will have to delid and sand to get safe temps .
> Vram does not feel to warm I don't have a heat gun for readings though..
> So I would say this board is not the limiting factor Chip luck and quality of solder job
> Does asus realbench do avx? I see some people set -2


realbench is the one that has tripped me up when going pasted 5ghz on my 9700k, I think it does use AVX commands. Ouch, that temp is rough. With llc at auto and cpu volage at 1.32 in bios my CPU temps don't go above mid 70s (with 480 black ice rad), VRM temp was about the same.


----------



## LordSilver

AlphaC said:


> I would advise buying the Taichi if you intend to upgrade in the future or save money with Edge AC especially if you don't intend to use the WIFI on the Pro Carbon. The Edge AC has 433Mbps WiFI but just about every other feature is there from the Pro Carbon and the heatsink is much larger and uncovered on the Edge AC.
> 
> 
> For a i7-8700 non-K you can buy the cheapest z390 board out there but I would avoid doing that since the cheapest boards tend to have cut down IO , build quality, cooling features (such as thermal sensors and fan headers), and audio. If you factor in audio the minimum boards for each brand that have ALC1220 are :
> *Asrock* z390 Extreme4 ~170 USD/EURO
> 
> *Asus *Z390-A (relatively the same price as a STRIX Z390-H so nobody should really buy the z390-H) with AI OC ~190 USD / ~170 EURO
> 
> *Gigabyte *Z390 Gaming SLI ~ 150 USD/EURO without toslink , the lowest one with toslink would be Z390 Aorus Elite which is around 170 USD/EURO or the ITX one around 160USD
> 
> *MSI *Z390M Edge (mATX) ~170 USD / ~160 EURO


I'm actually going to use the Wi-Fi, so 1.73Gbps vs 433Mbps makes a difference for me. The Gaming Edge AC (non-ITX) is 20€ cheaper than Carbon Pro AC but slower Wi-Fi, and those antennas are in the worst possible position since they mess up with cables and cover some of the I/O. ASRock was smarter in the design of the Taichi, putting the antennas right at the top of the I/O. So yeah, I'd save 50€ and go with Carbon Pro AC: we are talking about 8 VRMs for Msi vs 12 on the Taichi right? Another user said he has no problems with 9600K OCed to 5GHz, so I should be fine as well I guess... I'm just not sure if I would need a beefy PSU and connect all the 12 pins on the mobo, or if 8 pins and 300W are enough. It seems kinda overkill for a mobo like that to have 12 pins, the ASUS Z390-E costs 60€ more and has only 8 pins.


----------



## postem

AlphaC said:


> Other than QOL features (such as debug LED/power reset/clear CMOS , LN2 + slow mode switch) and maybe audio improvements (ESS DAC), the VRM on the STRIX Z390-E and Z390-F are using different inductors and fewer output capacitors. The Maximus XI Hero also has a heatpiped heatsink. The STRIX's capacitors are 5K hour rated capacitors and there's a korean site that believes the "MIL 5K" is from APAQ (Taiwan) rather than a Japanese manufacturer such as Nichicon or Chemicon.
> 
> 
> Also I think the memory layout and power delivery is different , which might explain the difference in guaranteed memory speeds (4266MHz vs 4400MHz).


Regardless of component quality, which ultimately defines what kind of total load a vrm can deliver, its kind of very lame to see all ROG Z390 boards not using any doublers and instead just using fat 4-5 phases.
Why did Asus decided to go this route? I dont think its about to save money for doubles on a board costly as Formula, why having worse temperatures and more output ripple when you could just use doublers?
And dont tell me its all about transients.


----------



## AlphaC

Z390 Extreme 4 SM7341EHKP variant at a site I don't recognize:







up1965P on back it looks like , which is a 5V driver per https://www.upi-semi.com/en-article-upi-292-1900
uP9521p PWM confirmed
http://www.gamebase.com.tw/forum/37001/topic/99110485
@ 5GHz and DDR4-4000 16GB kit (8G*2) CL16-17-17-28:
HWBOT x265 FHD Benchmark :69.54
HWBOT x265 4K Benchmark :17.13


The same user links to his wordpress site, with the following:
https://3cjohnhardware.wordpress.com/2018/10/19/asrock-z390-taichi-9900k/
5.1GHz (AVX offset 1)
DDR4-4000 16GB kit (8G*2) CL16-17-17-28
HWBOT x265 FHD Benchmark :68.81
HWBOT x265 4K Benchmark :16.99


https://3cjohnhardware.wordpress.com/2018/10/20/rog-maximus-xi-hero-9900k/
5GHz 
DDR4-4000 16GB kit (8G*2) CL16-17-17-28
HWBOT x265 FHD Benchmark :71.26
HWBOT x265 4K Benchmark :17.08


ROG Hero might have better subtimings compared to Taichi


Edge AC (ATX) - confirmation on 4c029n+4c024n
https://expreview.com/65071-2.html



PCGH has a paid article if someone wants to go read it:
http://www.pcgameshardware.de/Mainb...-1151-Mainboards-mit-Z390-im-Test-1268602/#a7




LordSilver said:


> I'm actually going to use the Wi-Fi, so 1.73Gbps vs 433Mbps makes a difference for me. The Gaming Edge AC (non-ITX) is 20€ cheaper than Carbon Pro AC but slower Wi-Fi, and those antennas are in the worst possible position since they mess up with cables and cover some of the I/O. ASRock was smarter in the design of the Taichi, putting the antennas right at the top of the I/O. So yeah, I'd save 50€ and go with Carbon Pro AC: we are talking about 8 VRMs for Msi vs 12 on the Taichi right? Another user said he has no problems with 9600K OCed to 5GHz, so I should be fine as well I guess... I'm just not sure if I would need a beefy PSU and connect all the 12 pins on the mobo, or if 8 pins and 300W are enough. It seems kinda overkill for a mobo like that to have 12 pins, the ASUS Z390-E costs 60€ more and has only 8 pins.


The Taichi non-Ultimate also has 433Mbps WIFI though. The Taichi has a much stronger power delivery as it has 40A rated TI NexFET powerblocks which retain higher efficiency > 90% even when at 20-25A and it uses a doubling scheme to get to 10 phases. As you are using a locked CPU or an i5 I don't think it's necessary unless you plan on upgrading later on.

The microATX Edge AC has >1.7Gbps WIFI like the Pro Carbon AC (Intel 9560) , the difference is the slightly weaker power delivery (it is using 8 pairs of mosfets instead of 10 on the Pro Carbon) and the antenna provided. As you stated you will be using a i7-8700 or i5-9600K I wouldn't worry too much about it , especially if it's non AVX workloads and use cases.

If a motherboard has more than an 8 pin CPU power connector you really don't need to use the extra 4 pin.




postem said:


> Regardless of component quality, which ultimately defines what kind of total load a vrm can deliver, its kind of very lame to see all ROG Z390 boards not using any doublers and instead just using fat 4-5 phases.
> Why did Asus decided to go this route? I dont think its about to save money for doubles on a board costly as Formula, why having worse temperatures and more output ripple when you could just use doublers?
> And dont tell me its all about transients.


I don't have an answer for the real reason as I don't work for ASUS. Likely they felt the thermal and efficiency performance was good enough, transient performance is just another factor. There's quite a few output capacitors to deal with the output ripple.


Also everyone seems to be forgetting ASUS AI OC likely required a lot of R&D money in their software department to not be a buggy mess. That money is put into the product costs , which is why I strongly suggest anyone intent on buying an ASUS Z390 buy one with Silicon quality and AI OC features as otherwise you're not getting full benefit from the R&D. This is part of why the Z390-H and TUF boards are terrible for the money.


----------



## postem

toncij said:


> So, in general, if we want to run all cores 9900K at 1.35V-1.4V (water-cooled) with AVX, where to go? What is the best board to get? 10GbE would be great to have, so I guess GB Aorus Xtreme? Abandoning Asus EFI is worth it I guess.
> 
> Not really sure my Asus X Formula can handle 9900 at 1.35V at full load. So far tested only for short bursts, no rendering thus far. Phantom ITX looks better on paper.


As far as it concerns me, personally hero X here, im considering trying first with fan over heatsink, it probably will handle, but anything ASUS is leaving me with bad taste on mouth. Last time i used asus i changed for Intel X58 Pro board, at that time, intel board was awesome. Got one MSI, died on me, then Asrock, which was very solid and very cheap, and then Asus again.

Asus Bios is awesome, but asrock bios isnt a complete crap, plus, Asrock always puts 2 physical bios, 5 doubled phases (even at z170), heatpipes, and a reasonable price. Im very sad getting back to Asus, its pretty and sexy, but it costs a lot and now it has some strange design decisions.

Formula is capable, and considering its true that z390 formula dont use doublers i think it can actually run colder. If you can use water on vrms there isnt any problem over it, the real problem is overheating the mosfets for long periods and it reducing life span. The worse it could happen is loss of efficiency and in extreme cases shutdown. 

Even Hero and other insulting cards arent that horrible like turning mosfets to 150C over 190A, it eventually could happen on cheaper boards.


----------



## postem

AlphaC said:


> Also everyone seems to be forgetting ASUS AI OC likely required a lot of R&D money in their software department to not be a buggy mess. That money is put into the product costs , which is why I strongly suggest anyone intent on buying an ASUS Z390 buy one with Silicon quality and AI OC features as otherwise you're not getting full benefit from the R&D. This is part of why the Z390-H and TUF boards are terrible for the money.


Someone actually uses these AI overclock features? It has been always a crap, with voltage overshoots and i think most overclocking folks dont really care for it.

Tuf is its own kind of special crap.
I remember some generations ago tuf used to be a good line, now its kinda of crap budget with cheap components.


----------



## toncij

The L33t said:


> The Taichi Ultimate seems like a fine model, very well priced and with the 10Gbe covered. Unless you really need TB3 or dislike Asrock for some reason, why spend 250 more on the extreme?


Looking at them, but not sure if this one will work as a hackintosh.  And then, that one thing... oh, I began to hate boards that don't have a built-in IO shield. The most annoying thing when mounting a board is that piece of c...



postem said:


> As far as it concerns me, personally hero X here, im considering trying first with fan over heatsink, it probably will handle, but anything ASUS is leaving me with bad taste on mouth. Last time i used asus i changed for Intel X58 Pro board, at that time, intel board was awesome. Got one MSI, died on me, then Asrock, which was very solid and very cheap, and then Asus again.
> 
> Asus Bios is awesome, but asrock bios isnt a complete crap, plus, Asrock always puts 2 physical bios, 5 doubled phases (even at z170), heatpipes, and a reasonable price. Im very sad getting back to Asus, its pretty and sexy, but it costs a lot and now it has some strange design decisions.
> 
> Formula is capable, and considering its true that z390 formula dont use doublers i think it can actually run colder. If you can use water on vrms there isnt any problem over it, the real problem is overheating the mosfets for long periods and it reducing life span. The worse it could happen is loss of efficiency and in extreme cases shutdown.
> 
> Even Hero and other insulting cards arent that horrible like turning mosfets to 150C over 190A, it eventually could happen on cheaper boards.


I'm not overly concerned with money here, since it all falls into "cheap working machine" and with all the other components, the board cost is pretty much irrelevant. Except for that Godlike which is simply atrocious.
Using Asus for 5 years now in continuity (7 boards so far) and not even sure if I'd swap Z370 Formula for a new one. It seems to handle 9900 fine for now, but not sure what will happen on 100% load overclocked and if that VRM will actually survive it in Summer.


----------



## el touristo

*Finally, TB in affordable ATX.*

my $.02: I will probably get the z390 Designaire (gigabyte). It seems this is the first ATX socket 1151 mb with TB built in since z270 ! (if then?) Otherwise I would probably get the Aurous Master. (the extreme is a ridiculous price IMO). I know this is OC.net, but I don't care for any more than very marginal overvolt, and then only if I need it. For example, I OC my q9650 from 3.0 to 3.6 on about .0325 OV (from 1.23 to 1.265), and that's makes all the difference for getting BF4 playable. It's still runs very cool on copper air and the fans stay low under load. I feel the inefficiencies and shortened life of OV OC is not worth it, and it's not elegant building. I do believe in binning. You don't have to fuss about a lot of heat and coolers if you are sensible about OC. Wherever a well-binned cpu 'wants' to run is where it should, IMO. I follow the sensible principle of 'diminishing returns'. So I don't care too much that the VRM heatsinks on the Designaire don't appear as capable as those on the Master. IDK what 'direct touch' really means, since it seems there is 'thick thermal pad' there anyway? GB's inclusion of TB at a fairly reasonable price leaves one wondering if this could have been offered all along. Intel has been greedy about TB, but it's not clear that's the main reason for is rarity. TB headers are NOT the same thing. The AICs are hard to find sometimes, extra cost/expensive (almost never included), less reliable it seems(driver and boot/hackintosh etc), and consume a slot, which matters. 9900K is not a 'hot' chip if you run it at 8700k-like speeds/volts, (which is the only fair comparison), but obviously is going to produce about 33% more heat than 8700k. I was very much considering X299, but coffee-lake is a better arch, and now with the 8 core Z390, and cost considerations, the decision seems 'easier'. I am disappointed there was no 'coffee lake-x', but am not willing to wait another year etc. Fun thought, watts are all heat...in the summer, if you use AC, watts of your PC are over 2X what you might think. Consider it takes watts to remove that heat from your house ! (unless you run outdoor rads, lol). In the winter, there is no extra waste really, same story for incandescent bulbs that are not in the ceiling.


----------



## eric98k

MSI MPG Z390I (ITX):
PWM uP9521P 6+1
Vcore: 6x CSD87350D 40A powerblock
Vccgt:: 1x CSD86360D 50A powerblock

https://www.chiphell.com/thread-1926161-1-1.html
https://www.overclock.net/forum/27679334-post2487.html
https://www.anandtech.com/show/13407/intel-z390-motherboard-overview-every-motherboard-analyzed/2


----------



## LordSilver

I can't find the equivalent chart of this for the Z390 motherboards: https://www.overclock.net/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=99753

Did it get removed?


----------



## GreedyMuffin

Since I wanted a 9900K, and my Z370 Taichi would hold be back.. I've sold it.

Looking st the Z390 Master, it is a bit cheaper than the Z390 Hero for reference.

Best board for OCing in that price-range?


----------



## asdkj1740

anticommon said:


> I'm currently using 2x 360mm rads in a loop with a 2.1ghz 2080 ti and 5.1ghz 8700k which should be a decent enough amount of thermal headroom for the 9900k.
> 
> And are the stock pads really that bad on the vrm sink? Would a glob of kryonaut solve this? Or better does anyone know what the thickness/heat transfer rate is for the stock pads?


you need 1.5mm thermal pad to replace the stock 1mm pad. dont need to buy super high w/mk and pricey one.
then turn on that litte fan behind the io shield, and set tj max as high as possible in the bios.


----------



## cletus-cassidy

cg4200 said:


> I am still testing my new Msi ace with 9900k build quality is good I don't like io shield covering part of heatsink a lot of boards do that now I think it traps heat.
> So far good board running good but warm. load line calibration is at 5 cpu core 1.260 adaptive auto 0.20 1.280 total.
> With v-points and multimeter 1.30 reading 5.1 all core will pass real bench but ouch hit 96 degrees gaming still testing.
> That is with 2 360 black ice dual rads and my titan xp not in loop yet f...k I will have to delid and sand to get safe temps .
> Vram does not feel to warm I don't have a heat gun for readings though..
> So I would say this board is not the limiting factor Chip luck and quality of solder job
> Does asus realbench do avx? I see some people set -2


I'm in the same boat. I have 1320mm of rad space (2x420 Black Ice and 1x480 EK XE) on my custom loop with a 9900K and 2080ti. 2080ti never goes above 40 degrees, even under load. The 9900K is a different story. At 5.1ghz (-1 AVX offset) @1.356v (HWINFO), I hit 89 degrees on Small FFTs in Prime95 26.6 (no AVX) and 99-101 in Prime 95 29.4 (AVX). I think I have just an average chip and the solder is bottlenecking me for sure. Considering paying Silicon Lottery to delid for me, as sanding and delidding myself sounds painful.


----------



## voidcrus

LordSilver said:


> I can't find the equivalent chart of this for the Z390 motherboards: https://www.overclock.net/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=99753
> 
> Did it get removed?


Still there, but attachment number changed: https://www.overclock.net/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=228376&d=1541020763
It's better to save the link to original post, this way you can always pull the most recent version:
https://www.overclock.net/forum/27657582-post2156.html


----------



## encrypted11

Review by @Sin0822
Is it still a 5+2 or 7+0 phase?
https://www.tweaktown.com/reviews/8...m-gaming-itx-ac-motherboard-review/index.html


----------



## Kana Chan

Looks like there might be a 90A component at some point.

avnet.com/shop/apac/products/infineon/tda21490-3074457345635513234/


----------



## Timur Born

Everyone is only talking about heat when it comes to VRMs, but I would like to know about noise! Mainboard VRMs not only induce their noise on all the ground lines, but can also be very audible all by themselves. The noise may be drowned by fans and especially graphic-card VRM noise, but in an otherwise silent case it can be quite audible.

My Asus Crosshair VI Hero "features" a very audible VRM section, depending on current CPU load and power profile. It sounds a bit like mechanical harddrives during massive seek (head) movements, albeit fortunately lower in volume.

Which of the currently discussed Z390 mainboards offers low noise VRMs (both audible and ground lines)?


----------



## Robbært

Timur Born said:


> Everyone is only talking about heat when it comes to VRMs, but I would like to know about noise! Mainboard VRMs not only induce their noise on all the ground lines, but can also be very audible all by themselves. The noise may be drowned by fans and especially graphic-card VRM noise, but in an otherwise silent case it can be quite audible.
> 
> My Asus Crosshair VI Hero "features" a very audible VRM section, depending on current CPU load and power profile. It sounds a bit like mechanical harddrives during massive seek (head) movements, albeit fortunately lower in volume.
> 
> Which of the currently discussed Z390 mainboards offers low noise VRMs (both audible and ground lines)?


not sure, changing vrm frequency can remove coil whine? many motherboards have this option.


----------



## GreedyMuffin

For overclocking purposes only (beside gaming..) Would the Gigabyte Z390 Pro be as good as the Z390 Master in that regard?

Thanks.


----------



## Timur Born

I also read that changing VRM frequency would have an impact on audible noise, but it surely does not remove the noise on my C6H. And how would it, anyway? VRM frequency is in the 300 - 500 kHz range, audible noise is in the 0.05 - 12 kHz range. The higher the CPU clock/voltage the louder the motherboard VRM noise.

Graphic-card VRM noise is interesting in that its base frequency usually corresponds to the current frame-rate (5000 fps = 5 kHz noise), but motherboard noise is much more random chirping. To do away with that you have to disable power-saving features (C-states), which suggests that the frequency of the noise corresponds to the frequency of C-state changes.


----------



## cg4200

cletus-cassidy said:


> I'm in the same boat. I have 1320mm of rad space (2x420 Black Ice and 1x480 EK XE) on my custom loop with a 9900K and 2080ti. 2080ti never goes above 40 degrees, even under load. The 9900K is a different story. At 5.1ghz (-1 AVX offset) @1.356v (HWINFO), I hit 89 degrees on Small FFTs in Prime95 26.6 (no AVX) and 99-101 in Prime 95 29.4 (AVX). I think I have just an average chip and the solder is bottlenecking me for sure. Considering paying Silicon Lottery to delid for me, as sanding and delidding myself sounds painful.


Yeah i am ordering some sandpaper kit to delid and smooth out imperfectrions.
I will go down extra 0.15 on chip and sand down top to make good contact apply liquid metal.
I have not bought a delid from Silicon Lottery not to bash them they get results but look at the picture lurking around here { I would not want my chip to look like that yikes} 
I think my chip is average also.. vrm seems good although maybe i will get vrm watercooling at some point this round anyone know good kit fits z390 ace?


----------



## eric98k

encrypted11 said:


> Review by @Sin0822
> Is it still a 5+2 or 7+0 phase?
> https://www.tweaktown.com/reviews/8...m-gaming-itx-ac-motherboard-review/index.html


Z370 ITX: https://www.tweaktown.com/reviews/8...-gaming-itx-ac-motherboard-review/index3.html
Z390 ITX: https://www.tweaktown.com/articles/...gaming-itx-ac-motherboard-preview/index3.html
https://www.tomshardware.com/review...gaming-itxac-i9-9900k-motherboard,5878-4.html


----------



## Stockman

I would also like to know more about VRM noise / coil whine. My Hero XI had very noticeable whine at idle, C states disabled. Dragging a large window across the screen would create quite a screech. I have a open frame case so it was easy to locate the source (i.e. not GPU). I also tried swapping GPUs, swapping PSUs, changing VRM frequency - all to no avail. Even moving mouse cursor across the screen created whine. Also tried different power outlets, surge protectors etc. So I added this to my list of reasons to return the Hero XI. 
Now my Aorus Master has the same problem!
Only way to get rid of the noise is to disable CPU idle through a registry edit. But this seems over kill and should not be necessary. Did I really get two defective boards in a row (from two brands!)?
Under extreme load (prime95) they're silent. Under lighter loads like booting windows there is some intermittent chirping. They are loudest at idle. Again, all c states disabled for both boards.
Is this normal? I've never had an open frame case with minimal fans before so maybe my prior builds just covered up the whine?


----------



## Telstar

GreedyMuffin said:


> Since I wanted a 9900K, and my Z370 Taichi would hold be back.. I've sold it.
> 
> Looking st the Z390 Master, it is a bit cheaper than the Z390 Hero for reference.
> 
> Best board for OCing in that price-range?


Probably the Aorus Master that you have chosen


----------



## Timur Born

Stockman said:


> I would also like to know more about VRM noise / coil whine. My Hero XI had very noticeable whine at idle, C states disabled. Dragging a large window across the screen would create quite a screech.


Dragging something across the screen is a bit of a special case, because several components are involved. One of these is the USB connection, the frequency of which (125 Hz default) can sometimes be heard as noise, even more so on ground lines.

Also keep in mind that "disabling" C-states might not be as easy as it seems. C1E is one of those that may not be possible to disable in UEFI and sometimes you can only disable C5/7+, but not C3.


----------



## elmor

Timur Born said:


> I also read that changing VRM frequency would have an impact on audible noise, but it surely does not remove the noise on my C6H. And how would it, anyway? VRM frequency is in the 300 - 500 kHz range, audible noise is in the 0.05 - 12 kHz range. The higher the CPU clock/voltage the louder the motherboard VRM noise.
> 
> Graphic-card VRM noise is interesting in that its base frequency usually corresponds to the current frame-rate (5000 fps = 5 kHz noise), but motherboard noise is much more random chirping. To do away with that you have to disable power-saving features (C-states), which suggests that the frequency of the noise corresponds to the frequency of C-state changes.





Stockman said:


> I would also like to know more about VRM noise / coil whine. My Hero XI had very noticeable whine at idle, C states disabled. Dragging a large window across the screen would create quite a screech. I have a open frame case so it was easy to locate the source (i.e. not GPU). I also tried swapping GPUs, swapping PSUs, changing VRM frequency - all to no avail. Even moving mouse cursor across the screen created whine. Also tried different power outlets, surge protectors etc. So I added this to my list of reasons to return the Hero XI.
> Now my Aorus Master has the same problem!
> Only way to get rid of the noise is to disable CPU idle through a registry edit. But this seems over kill and should not be necessary. Did I really get two defective boards in a row (from two brands!)?
> Under extreme load (prime95) they're silent. Under lighter loads like booting windows there is some intermittent chirping. They are loudest at idle. Again, all c states disabled for both boards.
> Is this normal? I've never had an open frame case with minimal fans before so maybe my prior builds just covered up the whine?


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetically_excited_acoustic_noise_and_vibration

Usually the noise will vary with the current running through the inductor. Some boards have it some don't, I would guess it's down to manufacturing tolerances.


----------



## Alexandrus

GreedyMuffin said:


> For overclocking purposes only (beside gaming..) Would the Gigabyte Z390 Pro be as good as the Z390 Master in that regard?
> 
> Thanks.


Depends on the BIOS, most likely, but otherwise, just by tech specs, I would say the PRO should be better.


----------



## AlphaC

GreedyMuffin said:


> For overclocking purposes only (beside gaming..) Would the Gigabyte Z390 Pro be as good as the Z390 Master in that regard?
> 
> Thanks.


Probably , at least Silicon Lottery testing suggests that it will be just as good for the overclocks people use 24/7 on ambient. From what I've seen at multiple places it does just as well. It loses QOL features such as the debug LED , physical BIOS switch + clear CMOS/power/reset, so it's not just VRM heatsink fins + backplate that you lose. I think there's some other things missing such as 3rd M.2 and ESS DAC.

The only other board around that price that's worth it for people that aren't truly audiophiles (i.e. no DAC) is the Taichi.

The memory overclocking on Gigabyte Z390 is still in contention, it probably isn't as strong as Asrock's but I've seen one review with the Aorus Master hitting 4400MHz and the QVL has over 4000MHz as well. The same review has 5.3GHz and 3600MHz memory. This is a niche criteria for most people, but worth mentioning. Maybe it's more sensitive to the kit used or something.

https://www.nexthardware.com/recensioni/gigabyte-z390-aorus-master-1356/15/



Timur Born said:


> Everyone is only talking about heat when it comes to VRMs, but I would like to know about noise! Mainboard VRMs not only induce their noise on all the ground lines, but can also be very audible all by themselves. The noise may be drowned by fans and especially graphic-card VRM noise, but in an otherwise silent case it can be quite audible.
> 
> My Asus Crosshair VI Hero "features" a very audible VRM section, depending on current CPU load and power profile. It sounds a bit like mechanical harddrives during massive seek (head) movements, albeit fortunately lower in volume.
> 
> Which of the currently discussed Z390 mainboards offers low noise VRMs (both audible and ground lines)?


 That's probably inductor ringing.

https://micro.rohm.com/en/techweb/knowledge/dcdc/dcdc_pwm/dcdc_pwm03/3164 "In general, switching frequencies tend to range from 500 kHz to 1 MHz, and so ringing occurs at frequencies that are 100 to 200 times higher."

For CSD87350 used on your Crosshair VI Hero it's been mentioned that it has features to reduce ringing:
"Fast-switching MOSFETs such as the Texas Instruments (TI) CSD87350Q5D incorporate a stacked MOSFET pair that limits the parasitic inductances through innovative packaging techniques"
http://www.ti.com/lit/an/slyt465/slyt465.pdf

The electrical noise probably translates to acoustic noise through the inductor.


----------------------

Not that I recommend anyone buy the Gaming Plus (not just due to power delivery of course) when the Z390M Edge exists at the low end (also Z390M Mortar looks to be the same price as Gaming Plus) but here's another review on it:
https://lanoc.org/review/motherboards/7876-msi-mpg-z390-gaming-plus?start=5
>303°F in thermal camera is odd to me, that's over 150°C; under the heatsink was around 181°F/82°C


edit: Looks like the NH-U12S was oriented the opposite way it would be in a case with the fan blowing air from the IO shield side...





Spoiler



*Price/Performance at the low end
*
For people buying the i7-9700K with non-AVX workloads (or large AVX offsets to drop below 4.5-4.7GHz) that don't care so long as it isn't a 3 rear audiojack board there's options all the way down to $140 or so. USB 3.1 gen 2 is integrated into Z390 chipset so there's no excuse for a z390 board not to have it.

1. Gigabyte Z390M Gaming (mATX) --- this isn't fit for i9-9900K in AVX obviously but it's around 140USD/€130 & from testing done on UD we can presume it can handle roughly 180W despite a push pin heatsink . I would not buy the Gaming X that is missing USB 3.1 type C on the rear panel due to the existence of the Z390M Gaming
2. MSI Z390 Tomahawk --- cheapest MSI board that is heatsinked (but don't expect to run an i9 without AVX offset), has toslink, around €135 but in the USA it's priced at ~ $155 which is really high for it
--> the design choice of a second LAN on a gaming branded budget board is baffling.
3. MSI Z390M Mortar (mATX) --- for most people in USA this is a better buy at $140ish vs the $150ish Tomahawk especially since the lack of IO shield means more surface area

4. Gigabyte Z390 SLI --- this isn't fit for i9-9900k in AVX ; missing rear USB type C port, has ALC1220 without toslink for $150 USD (More or less the same price as a Gaming Plus in USA)
5. MSI Z390M Edge AC (mATX) --- ~150€ (the $170 USD price is high in comparison) has ALC1220VB +WIFI/BT and ticks most of the features , will likely retain value until a more featured midrange mATX board debuts ... this is my recommendation to anyone considering the TUF Z390M mATX board that runs $180ish

At ~€165 / ~$170 USD you have the Aorus Elite (advise getting Aorus Pro as always), Extreme4 , and Z390-A so really you have to wonder how much cost savings you obtain. In Eurozone the MSI Edge ATX board is also around €170.


----------



## Timur Born

Thanks for the explanations on noise sources, albeit I am a bit confused by the last explanation: "In general, switching frequencies tend to range from 500 kHz to 1 MHz, and so ringing occurs at frequencies that are 100 to 200 times higher." 100 times 1 MHz is 100 MHz, that's nowhere near the audible band (usually below 16 KHz).

And the question remains: Which boards do emit noise and which do not?

Mainboard noise usually is a lesser problem compared to graphic-card (VRM) noise, but it still exists. I don't intend on disabling idle features or to run the CPU at low clock-rates just to keep the mainboard from buzzing. I'd rather put my money where my ears are and get a board that keeps the noise down on its own.

Generally I would appreciate if mainboards were able to filter their own, PSU and the GPU's noise from their ground-lines, too. Because that noise travels via cable shield (like USB->XLR) to the amplifier/powered speakers (three prong with safety/earth) and thus becomes even more audible in speakers. I once had a PSU for testing that would induce a whine of decreasing frequency over ground lines and then cable shield when the PC was shut down (switch), likely while a big capacitor lost its charge.


----------



## LordSilver

voidcrus said:


> Still there, but attachment number changed: https://www.overclock.net/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=228376&d=1541020763
> It's better to save the link to original post, this way you can always pull the most recent version:
> https://www.overclock.net/forum/27657582-post2156.html


Thank you for your advice, much appreciated.


----------



## GreedyMuffin

Hi! 

Thank you both for,answering!

The Z390 Taichi cost the same as the Master. (About 400 USD in Norway). The Elite is priced at around 280 USD. Is the extra 120 USD going to make a difference?

I have a set of G.skill 4266 Cl19, AX1500I and MO-RA420 with 2x D5s. So I'm looking to push it to what my cooling can handle.


----------



## Foritain

Since this data seems to be missing still in earlier table:

Asus Prime Z390-A:
ASP1400CTB controller (4+1)
NCP302045 x8 (Vcore) / NCP302045 x1 (vgpu)

Heatsink has ok-ish surface.


----------



## Alexandrus

AlphaC said:


> The only other board around that price that's worth it for people that aren't truly audiophiles (i.e. no DAC) is the Taichi.


No audiophile uses onboard sound, by definition, no matter what the onboard sound is, realistically speaking, no onboard sound can be anywhere on the same continent as audiophile grade.


----------



## postem

Alexandrus said:


> No audiophile uses onboard sound, by definition, no matter what the onboard sound is, realistically speaking, no onboard sound can be anywhere on the same continent as audiophile grade.


Im no audiophile by any means, but usually i just ignore the existance of sound chips on motherboards.
Even my current board has a ESS Dac, but it still sounds worse than my sound board card. For best results you should use external dac/amp.

Even with all circuit isolation (i didnt hear any interference while trying onboard audio), sounds is muffled and it feels like it has worse dynamic ratio. 
For me anyway sound chips on motherboards are completely useless, its best to spend some money on decent board or even better some external dac and use it for a long time.


----------



## AlphaC

GreedyMuffin said:


> Hi!
> 
> Thank you both for,answering!
> 
> The Z390 Taichi cost the same as the Master. (About 400 USD in Norway). The Elite is priced at around 280 USD. Is the extra 120 USD going to make a difference?
> 
> I have a set of G.skill 4266 Cl19, AX1500I and MO-RA420 with 2x D5s. So I'm looking to push it to what my cooling can handle.


I wouldn't buy the Aorus Elite at the current price differential to the Aorus Pro. AFAIK pricing in North America , Europe, and Asia are all showing the Elite as ~$10 off from the Aorus Pro.
I've stated many times that the Elite lacks a heatpipe and is using Apaq Taiwanese 5K hour capacitors so any case without active airflow is going to make it hotter (so expect a STRIX or Z390-A like result rather than a Maximus XI Hero like result). It also lacks the extra thermal monitoring and fan headers which I would presume is especially useful for your situation. IO wise it is missing USB 3.1 gen 2 type C at back panel , it only has type A.

The Aorus Master has massive amounts of surface area since the backplate also acts as a heatsink. There's overclocking features such as the BIOS switch, Debug LED (vs status LEDs with VGA+CPU+RAM), voltage read points, and clear CMOS + Power/reset. If you intend to use 3rd M.2 slot there's also a third M.2. USB 3.1 gen 2 front panel header isn't present below the Aorus Ultra. Whether it is worth it to you is up to your own judgment 

Official memory support on the QVL is 4133MHz for all the Aorus ATX sized boards.

The Taichi suffered a regression from Z370 in that I don't see a "BIOS B SELECT JUMPER" anymore. It's still a good board but not without compromises (433Mbps WIFI for example).



> This motherboard has two BIOS chips, an active BIOS (BIOS_ A) and a backup BIOS (BIOS_B), which enhances the safety and stability of your system. Use “Secure Backup UEFI” to duplicate a working copy of the BIOS files to the active BIOS to ensure normal system operation. Normally, the system will work on the active BIOS. However if the active BIOS is corrupted or damaged, after several failed boot attempts, the backup BIOS will take over. For safety issues, users are not able to update the backup BIOS manually. Users may refer to the BIOS LEDs (BIOS_ A_LED or BIOS_B_LED) to identify which BIOS is currently activated


Also Newegg Black Friday ad is up:







https://www.newegg.com/promotions/nepro/18-3230/index.html#p=6


----------



## GreedyMuffin

AlphaC said:


> I wouldn't buy the Aorus Elite at the current price differential to the Aorus Pro. AFAIK pricing in North America , Europe, and Asia are all showing the Elite as ~$10 off from the Aorus Pro.
> I've stated many times that the Elite lacks a heatpipe and is using Apaq Taiwanese 5K hour capacitors so any case without active airflow is going to make it hotter (so expect a STRIX or Z390-A like result rather than a Maximus XI Hero like result). It also lacks the extra thermal monitoring and fan headers which I would presume is especially useful for your situation. IO wise it is missing USB 3.1 gen 2 type C at back panel , it only has type A.
> 
> I mixed the Pro and Elite. The Pro is around 250 USD or so. The extra 150+ bucks isn't deal-breaking to me honestly. I'll just take one more shift from work and it should give me something a lot to spare as well. So I think I'm just going with the Master. That's what I ordered a few hours ago at least. Since I'm taking it all out on my rig anyways.. I hope for a 5.1-5.2 ghz for 24/7 with my equipment. We'll see early next month when the CPU gets back to stock. The Master's colour scheme should match my Heatkiller IV block nicely. If this is a good overclocker I might delid, if not I'm just going to run it at 90'C++ compared to the 50'C in CB R15 with delidded 8700K at 5 ghz. Again, thanks a lot!


----------



## encrypted11

It's worth noting that the 4133MHz rating on Aorus boards are only applicable for 4 DIMM configs since T topology runs better on 4 than 2 DIMMs.

There are limited QVLs at 4000MHz for 2 DIMMs and they aren't running flat timings you'd see on Asus/ASRock QVLs typically. (e.g. 16-16-16-36, 17-17-17-37, 19-19-19-39). The 3866 XMP timings aren't flat either and are 18-19-19-39 to 18-22-22-40. With tightly tuned timings on 2 DIMMs the probable realistic memory frequency targets are likely around +-3733MHz. Abit higher for 4 DIMMs.

There's a user in my local forum community on a 9700k+ aorus ultra + 3600 b-die 16-16-16-36 2x8GB non-rgb kit (excellent for memory tuning). The "plug and play" limits have topped out at 3600MHz as it stands. Overall, it could be up to the nascent BIOS but while gigabyte makes boards with great VRMs this refresh, memory hasn't been their strength for awhile. At least for boards available at retail excluding the Gigabyte Z390 XOC.


----------



## LordSilver

Damn, I envy all of you Americans with those real Black Friday steals... Not EU fake Black Friday done by Amazon and other shops with just the crappiest warehouse leftovers at barely decent discounts.

Anyway, I was considering getting the Gigabyte Z390 AORUS PRO WIFI over the MSI Z390 CARBON PRO AC even if I don't like it, just because it has the same price (200€ shipped) but with much better power delivery. Just one thing: am I blind or the mobo really doesn't have any fan connector on the left side? Like, is it even possible to forget to put a connector for the fan on the rear side of the case? If that's true, this is the best thought design I've seen in years...


----------



## AlphaC

rear fan connector is right under the CPU power


----------



## eric98k

Tweaktown: Supermicro C9Z390-PGW
https://www.tweaktown.com/reviews/8...-pgw-intel-z390-motherboard-review/index.html

VRM: 
Vcore PWM Primarion PXE1610 (6+1), 6x Infineon TDA21232 50A DrMOS, Vitec PR72-151 inductors (66A, 150nH)
Vccsa: 1x Infineon TDA21240 40A DrMOS, R33 inductor
Vccgt: PWM PrimarionPXM1310 (2), 2x Infineon TDA21240 40A DrMOS, Vitec PR72-151 inductors (66A, 150nH)
Vmem: Primarion PXE1110 (1), 1x Infineon TDA21240 40A DrMOS, Vitec PR72-151 inductor (66A, 150nH)

PLX: PEX8747


----------



## SpirosKGR

Im ready to choose the Z390 Aorus Pro with a 9900K. Will the mobo be ok without any modifications like fan at vrm with the cpu at 5 Ghz ;


----------



## Robbært

SpirosKGR said:


> Im ready to choose the Z390 Aorus Pro with a 9900K. Will the mobo be ok without any modifications like fan at vrm with the cpu at 5 Ghz ;


Aorus boards are only with potential for this in pre $400 price range.
It very unclear what few ASRock boards capable, but I not gonna bet my money on 10* CSD87350 can stay under 90C 0LFM airflow 9900K 5GHz OC. There one, single test with termals, they did reach 86C (possibly throttled). Still open test bench and in case it will be few C more.


----------



## eric98k

Buildzoid PCB Breakdown: ASUS ROG Maximus XI Gene





A typical Asus XOC board but more expensive (310 GBP) than before 
Dual 8-pin EPS, only one needed except for sub-ambient OC
More accurate voltage reading on Maximus XI with redesigned monitoring circuitry: https://www.overclock.net/forum/27686004-post2664.html

VRM:

Better than Maximus 9 & 10 Apex
PWM ASP1405I (5+2), 5-phase Vcore, 2-phase Vgpu, 
10+2 IR3555 60A PowerIRstage: OTP, current monitoring, Body-Braking mode, Diode emulation mode
No doublers: no current balancing, but have a sort of self-balancing mechanism between a pair of mosfets based on temp, Rds(on) and current
Good efficiency: Fsw 400kHz, Vout 1.3V, 5Vdrv
- Iout 150A, power loss 17.5W
- Iout 200A, power loss 21.5W
- Iout 250A, power loss 28W
- Iout 300A, power loss 36W
- Iout 350A, power loss 45W
- Iout 400A, power loss 58W​Vccsa: PWM APW8723 (1) at 300kHz, 2x 4C10B (1H1L)
Vccio: TI TPS51362 10A integrated FET converter
Vmem: 2-phase, redesigned output filtering with extensive amount of 150uF caps 

Debugging features:

MemOK switch useless
Color-coded troubleshooting LED
LN2 mode jumper: lifts all security limits
Slow mode switch: forces CPU running at 8x ratio
RSVD switch (for LN OC): removes cold bug
Retry button
Safeboot button
Probe-It connector: dumb design
Clear CMOS & BIOS Flashback on the rear panel


----------



## postem

eric98k said:


> Buildzoid PCB Breakdown: ASUS ROG Maximus XI Gene
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZM7kinrgyyY
> 
> No doublers: no current balancing, but have a sort of self-balancing mechanism between a pair of mosfets based on temp, Rds(on) and current
> Good efficiency: Fsw 400kHz, Vout 1.3V, 5Vdrv
> - Iout 150A, power loss 17.5W
> - Iout 200A, power loss 21.5W
> - Iout 250A, power loss 28W
> - Iout 300A, power loss 36W
> - Iout 350A, power loss 45W
> - Iout 400A, power loss 58W​Vccsa: PWM APW8723 (1) at 300kHz, 2x 4C10B (1H1L)
> Vccio: TI TPS51362 10A integrated FET converter
> Vmem: 2-phase, redesigned output filtering with extensive amount of 150mF caps


That power loss, unless there is a real vrm heatsink, with a small case likely used with this board will mean bad temps. 

About Asrock, the top boards as i remember correctly are using IS components. With 5 phases doubled + bigger heatsink + heatpipe it should work without much trouble on big load. 
The only issue i found with Gigabyte is their horrible UEFI Bios.


----------



## SpeedyIV

I don't get why Asus would put this beefy VRM on the Gene but not on the Code or Formula (or Hero).

I also don't get why they would not plan to sell the Gene in the USA. Seems like it is the only alternative to the Extreme (and Apex?) that does not have the new Asus 4-Phase ("Twin 8-Phase") VRM design. I suspect there will be a lot of people in the US market that will want a better VRM but can't or don't want to spend the $ on the Extreme (or the Apex). I guess the jury is still out on this new VRM design used on the Xi Hero, Code, and Formula.


----------



## Javeran

Hey guys, 

i have read a lot about the Z390 boards here. But i'm still not sure which one i should buy. The GA Master or the Asus Hero. Or maybe spend some extra bugs for the Asus Code. I want to run the 9900k all core 5.0GHz with Silent loop 240. 

Are there any critical differences (tech, not features) between these boards?

thanks a lot. 

Frank


----------



## Brafall

ASRock Z390 Taichi Ultimate analysis:






Buildzoid isn't happy about the VRM on this one. I wonder how relevant it is to the average gamer with an i9-9900k that doesn't go crazy with overclocking.

I'm sitting on the non-Ultimate Taichi which should be pretty much the same in terms of VRM and I'm wondering if I should return it or just stick with it.

Later addendum by buildzoid on Reddit:


> Apparently my memory is garbage I called the VRM lacking in the video. This board was unlucky enough to be first one I did a video on. Since compared to the other boards I've been working on since at this price point it really isn't out of line. Also it's worth noting that the Taich Ultimate is a Taichi + 10G lan. The 10G lan chip is 36USD in bulk so really you're getting the VRM of a 240USD board + 10G lan. Though TBH the X370 Taichi was 200USD and still had a 12phase Vcore so yeah.


----------



## Telstar

Robbært said:


> Aorus boards are only with potential for this in pre $400 price range.


Add the Gene, which is not available in USA. EU prices are around €330.


----------



## AlphaC

Horrible video title.

"Not the most efficient thing ever" when it is over 90% efficient per powerblock at 20A per phase and at *1.3V*. 200A x 1.3V = 260W and in reality most users won't push it that high. Recommended current limit per intel is 193A.

If you go by the datasheets it's ~ 2.7W at 20A per phase which if you go by efficiency = Power Out/ Power IN = (20A x 1.3V)/(20A x 1.3V +2.7W) = 90.5%

At this point I think GamersNexus is just picking the most controversial titles possible to get views.

----------------------------


SpeedyIV said:


> I don't get why Asus would put this beefy VRM on the Gene but not on the Code or Formula (or Hero).
> 
> I also don't get why they would not plan to sell the Gene in the USA. Seems like it is the only alternative to the Extreme (and Apex?) that does not have the new Asus 4-Phase ("Twin 8-Phase") VRM design. I suspect there will be a lot of people in the US market that will want a better VRM but can't or don't want to spend the $ on the Extreme (or the Apex). I guess the jury is still out on this new VRM design used on the Xi Hero, Code, and Formula.


There's an easy explanation: ROG Gene is a 2 DIMM board also meant for overclocking on LN2 , ROG Formula/Hero/Code are boards meant for everyday use

----------------------------


Also ROG Extreme has been un-heatsinked : 10X IR3555

https://www.bjorn3d.com/2018/11/asus-maximus-xi-extreme-review/4/


https://proclockers.com/reviews/mot...s-xi-extreme-z390-motherboard-review/page/0/3





chowbaby said:


> Anyone know if there is much difference across the maximus line between heatsinks? They all look a bit different but I don't know if that's mostly aesthetically driven.


I wouldn't worry too much unless you buy a Formula and don't run custom water through the block, I don't see a point in buying that board for an AIO or aircooler build.



---------------


Aorus Ultra 74°C at 4.7GHz AVX , ~88°C at 5GHz AVX Prime95 with 250W package power


> To verify overclocking stability, we used Prime95 for a 30-minute copy test to keep the CPU fully loaded. During the test, the CPU frequency was stable at 5 GHz and the core temperature was up to 104 °C. On the motherboard side, the temperature of the VRM MOS is up to 88 °C. We use a temperature gun to measure the surface temperature of the area, and the surface temperature is only around 70 °C.


*https://www.gamersky.com/hardware/201811/1121566_6.shtml
*








Gaming Pro Carbon ~ 82°C _with a TY141 fan_ blowing on it at 4.9GHz in Prime95 , peak package power 225W








http://www.pceva.com.cn/portal.php?mod=view&aid=3891&page=7


Tomahawk in the wild









Code:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CyoK0Kz8f8I


----------



## postem

*"*



AlphaC said:


> Horrible video title.
> 
> "Not the most efficient thing ever" when it is over 90% efficient per powerblock at 20A per phase and at *1.3V*. 200A x 1.3V = 260W and in reality most users won't push it that high. Recommended current limit per intel is 193A.
> 
> If you go by the datasheets it's ~ 2.7W at 20A per phase which if you go by efficiency = Power Out/ Power IN = (20A x 1.3V)/(20A x 1.3V +2.7W) = 90.5%
> 
> At this point I think GamersNexus is just picking the most controversial titles possible to get views.


This points me to question, at what point Buildzoid is going to be actually shilling for gigabyte boards?
I mean, okay, Asus VRM decisions are questionable, they dont expose vrm temps, and so on, asrock efficiency is bad, probably MSI is gonna be bad, so only conclusion going by Buildzoid alone is gigabyte is the only one capable of dealing with heat or have the proper vrm.
Maybe the conclusion is logic, and he is right on most conclusions, but, for most 9900K, people are going to reach 200A?

Like 
"Asus uses 4 phases, they lied but their phases are beefy, but this is not the best"
"Asrock has 10 phases, but it would be better to have 12 phases"

Personally (i dont have any z390), asrock is ok considering price point. But from sum of Buildzoid told until now i can only conclude the next videos where he does Aorus main boards (apart from extreme), he is going to say "these are the best".



AlphaC said:


> Aorus Ultra 74°C at 4.7GHz AVX , ~88°C at 5GHz AVX Prime95 with 250W package power


Buildzoid on the early video about gigabyte all line stated he would probably select Ultra even over Master considering specs.


----------



## eric98k

TI 87350 datasheet: http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/csd87350q5d.pdf

Buildzoid clearly uses Tj=125C data. I found it confusing to read the datasheet. If u compare the power loss figure on page 1 (Ta=25C) and Figure 1 in section 5.6 (Tj=125C), the ratio is about 3:4. Yet according to Figure 2 of section 5.6 (power loss vs junction temp), the equivalent junction temp (at 75%) is Tj=-15C (!) for Ta=25C . 

Pls point out the correct way to read the datasheet.


----------



## chowbaby

AlphaC said:


> Horrible video title.
> 
> 
> ----------------------------
> 
> 
> Also ROG Extreme has been un-heatsinked : 10X IR3555
> 
> https://www.bjorn3d.com/2018/11/asus-maximus-xi-extreme-review/4/


Anyone know if there is much difference across the maximus line between heatsinks? They all look a bit different but I don't know if that's mostly aesthetically driven.


----------



## Robbært

eric98k said:


> Buildzoid clearly uses Tj=125C data. I found it confusing to read the datasheet. If u compare the power loss figure on page 1 (Ta=25C) and Figure 1 in section 5.6 (Tj=125C), the ratio is about 3:4. Yet according to Figure 2 of section 5.6 (power loss vs junction temp), the equivalent junction temp (at 75%) is Tj=-15C (!) for Ta=25C .
> 
> Pls point out the correct way to read the datasheet.


There is no Ta=25C unless cooler blowing.
Figure 5 is one to see and Taichi go to 97C VRM temperature at 183A (not 193A) load
This board can run 9900K 5GHz, close to edge (edit).
There no correct way to read this. Fig.5 is one that show 12.5A @120C. there 10 of them.


----------



## Robostyle

Guys - is there any decent motherboard on 390 to upgrade to from M10C/M10H, released so far? 
Something really advanced - ATM, I see only XI gene and extreme...


----------



## Raghar

Robostyle said:


> Guys - is there any decent motherboard on 390 to upgrade to from M10C/M10H, released so far?
> Something really advanced - ATM, I see only XI gene and extreme...


Asus? Only extreme*1, otherwise it's nearly the same. (Aim 10-20$ fan at VRM, if needed.) Why upgrade? 


*1 It's bit waste of money when you don't do LN2 OC, or similar OC to the max stuff. And I suspect Z390 Apex would be better for OC to the max stuff.


----------



## vvoid

Javeran said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> i have read a lot about the Z390 boards here. But i'm still not sure which one i should buy. The GA Master or the Asus Hero. Or maybe spend some extra bugs for the Asus Code. I want to run the 9900k all core 5.0GHz with Silent loop 240.


All current Z390 mid-highend boards seem to have their downsides. I'm also still unsure, here's a quick breakdown from my point of view.

Asus: Hero is too weak VRM-wise and way overpriced. Gene is good, but even more expensive and I don't like the DIMM.2 slot limiting PCI-E to x8. In practice this means don't use DIMM.2, so what's the point including it?? Strix-F might be worth a consideration, not that much different to Hero.

Asrock: Taichi would be my only consideration, but buildzoid pulled its VRM to pieces. Not quite sure though, it might be sufficient imo. Anyways, it doesn't have a temp-header and price isn't exactly cheap either for what it offers, so I guess it's out for me. (Want to monitor water temperature.).

MSI: Nah, ACE would be my only candidate, but also no temp-header and VRM is kind of old-school.

Gigabyte: Elite/Pro/Ultra/Master all have great VRM, but there's more to consider. For me, their memory T-topology kills all of them. I have some good Samsung B-die memory and I want to push it. That rules out all of the Gigabyte boards sadly.

EVGA: FTW somewhat unknown, but it also has no a temp-header, so... not for me.

Recommendations? Feels like 'pick your poison' at this point...  For me, the best compromise probably would be Asus Gene, but I feel it's a little too expensive so I'm hesitating...


----------



## AlphaC

STRIX z390-E runs around 10°C hotter than the Hero (58°C vs 49°C) with i7-9700k overclocked in AIDA64 FPU (AVX) per gecid due to the lack of heatpipe and also the different input/output filtering capacitor and chokes. gecid tests with a NH-U14S so that's with 1500RPM fan airflow over the VRM heatsink and using an i7.

The roughest testing I've seen is on quasarzone and playwares which both use Prime95 AVX i9-9900K with no fans.

Overclockers.ru uses LinX without fans, their testing of Maximus XI Hero:


https://overclockers.ru/lab/show/94024_2/obzor-materinskoj-platy-asus-rog-maximus-xi-hero-wi-fi-luchshaya-model-dlya-coffee-lake-refresh#9 said:


> At the rated frequency and without blowing the VRM zone of the motherboard ASUS ROG Maximus XI Hero (WI-FI) reaches a temperature of 68 ° C.
> 
> ...
> 
> Peak power consumption with VRM losses is more than 300 watts. And eight cores 9700K at 4.9 GHz cannot even be cooled by a custom loop. The processor is really hot. But the result is obvious, VRM without cooling only heats up to 84 ° C.


Overclockers.ru testing of STRIX Z390-E without fans



https://overclockers.ru/lab/show/94010_2/obzor-materinskoj-platy-asus-rog-strix-z390-e-gaming-k-razgonu-coffee-lake-refresh-gotova#9 said:


> Naturally, the heating was insignificant, while the load on the power supply system was moderate. However, it showed such a commendable demonstration of strength only with the ASUS Multicore enhancement function turned off. The radiators of the power supply system did not heat up above 66 ° C.
> ...
> CPU Core / Cache Current Limit Max - set 255.50. And then expose the voltage and multiplier. The test sample Intel Core i7-9700K, previously tested for maximum overclocking, provides 100% stability at a voltage of Vcore 1.375-1.400 V and a frequency of 4.9 GHz with AVX 0. In this combination, the VRM temperature did not rise above 82 ° C without additional cooling. With the fan installed, it was possible to reduce it to 57 ° C. Do not forget to set the maximum TDP level of the processor, which it can use in overclocking. This parameter is set in the menu Digi + VRM.


As on z370 I'm compiling temperatures, if someone wants to help I can put it in a google doc but for now it's locally stored.

-------------------



lb_felipe said:


> For a Maximus XI Extreme, does this setup make sense?
> 
> Intel Core i9-9900K
> ASUS ROG Maximus XI Extreme
> G.SKILL [Trident Z] F4-3733C17Q-64GTZKK
> ASUS ROG-STRIX-RTX2080TI-O11G-GAMING
> 2 x Samsung 970 PRO 1TB
> WD Red 10TB
> Lian Li PC-O11 WGX
> Seasonic PRIME Ultra 850 Titanium
> EKWB EK-Velocity RGB - Nickel + Acetal
> EKWB EK-XRES 140 Revo D5 RGB PWM
> Hardware Labs Nemesis 360GTS
> 9 x Noctua NF-A12x25 PWM
> EKWB EK-ACF Fitting 10/16mm - Black (6-pack)
> EKWB EK-Tube ZMT Matte Black 15,9/9,5mm (3m RETAIL)
> EKWB EK-CryoFuel Clear Premix 900 mL
> EKWB EK-UNI Pump Bracket (120mm FAN) Vertical
> 
> I want it as quiet as possible.


Be Quiet Silent Wings 3 is also worth looking into as well as the Phanteks PH-F120MP on radiator. The NF-A12x25 is slightly better but the Be Quiet Silent Wings 3 120mm fan is close enough (especially at 1000-1250RPM) and doesn't come in brown so if you have a windowed case with RGB it wouldn't clash with your aesthetic.
https://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/Noctua/NF-A12x25_PWM/5.html

Hardwarelabs Nemesis 360GTS is optimized for sub 800RPM fan speeds.

If you are looking into RGB for your loop at the pump, there's the new Aquacomputer D5 NEXT as well.

Seems fine though.



Shark00n said:


> Very helpful post!
> 
> I was wondering if your opinion has changed at all meanwhile? Do you think the MSI Edge is still a better option regarding the TUF and Gigabyte Z390M?
> I don't need onboard audio or WiFi, just want the highest quality components and performance with a 9900K. Seems like that's difficult with mATX boards right now.
> I would go with the Gene but there's a big price gap. Although it has better power-delivery it also has a bunch of features I have no particular need for. And it only has 2 RAM slots, I need 4.
> 
> Thanks


Haven't seen the same reviewer review both the Gigabyte Z390M Gaming and MSI Z390M Edge mATX. What I do know is the Edge is better featured (it also has USB 3.1 type C front panel connector) and unless you plan on maxing out i9-9900k on it with Prime95 you ought to be fine with the Edge for Blender AVX or something like that provided you cool it well (AVX offset might be required). The Gigabyte Z390M Gaming has a better VRM if all 10 phases are used but the heatsink contact pressure is lower due to the push pins and surface area is also lower. The same design was tested on the Z390 UD and it was able to sustain around 200W at 95-100°C so I would expect around 180W at ~85°C.


Feature overview , not including dual BIOS:








With a lifetime of 5K on the capacitors it's 2x life for every 10°C drop (Arrhenius equation) so about 20K hours is expected. That's well over 10 hours a day for 5 years

The Edge mATX splits 6 mosfets on one larger VRM heatsink and then 2 on the top heatsink while the Z390M Gaming has 6 mosfets on one VRM heatsink with another 4 on the top heatsink.

There's really only a handful of heatsinked boards I'm truly concerned about: the Z390 Tomahawk (copy paste job of Z370 Pro Carbon with a lot of plastic), STRIX Z390-H (basically midrange Z370 level) which at the current pricing nobody should buy , TUF Pro (basically midrange Z370-A level without a larger heatsink) which at the current pricing nobody should buy, Z390-P , Prime Plus mATX, and Phantom SLI/ac (proven to need a fan). If you look at the $90-130 H370 boards and then compare the $160-170 Z390 boards you have to wonder whether it was necessary to make those unheatsinked boards with poor featuresets. I was second guessing the Pro Carbon ATX with the plastic cover on but I have seen one Japanese review with a TY-147 blowing on it (~1300RPM) and maintaining ~80°C so while it isn't great given how its VRM should be cooler for that kind of load, it still gets a reasonable result <100°C.


Power components + fin area / contact pressure are king, since thermal pads are something that is easily replaceable with over 5 w/mK solutions (see Arctic 6 w/mK , Thermal Grizzly 8 w/mK, Alphacool Eisschicht 11W/mK which is rebrand Fujipoly Sarcon XR-e + 14w/mK which is Sarcon XR-H and 17 W/mK which is rebrand Fujipoly Sarcon XR-m)
see https://www.hardwareluxx.de/community/f136/alphacool-eisschich-co-waermeleitpad-test-1093326.html

On a low fin area heatsink such as the one on the Gigabyte X370 series, the gain is only about 5°C going from stock 1mm thick pad to 1.5mm Arctic 6w/mK while going from 1mm to 1mm Arctic 6W/mK net no gains: https://www.hwcooling.net/en/test-of-chewing-gums-3-arctic-and-thermal-grizzly-minus-pads/3/




-----------------




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-HcscybW-Z8 said:


> this board is the 09:49
> only board that I've been able to make
> 
> 
> 09:51
> over night stable at five point two
> 
> 
> 09:53
> gigahertz and only one point two seven
> 
> 
> 09:56
> volts so that's with my retail CPU


Level1techs on Aorus Master


----------



## Robostyle

Raghar said:


> Asus? Only extreme*1, otherwise it's nearly the same. (Aim 10-20$ fan at VRM, if needed.) Why upgrade?
> 
> 
> *1 It's bit waste of money when you don't do LN2 OC, or similar OC to the max stuff. And I suspect Z390 Apex would be better for OC to the max stuff.


Well, no, I mean overall - all manufacturers. I like ASRock, respect ASUS (but only their motherboards, because everything else they're making is pure lowgrade bull****). Didn't had any experience with top-tier gigabyte/msi. 
Yeah, now I have M10H with M10F VRM (lucky one), as for M11 series - maybe, new motherboards are far superior solutions for [email protected], than M10?, idk. That's why I'm asking 
Moreover, there's new stuff regarding both vrm (see voltage monitoring in M11H) and peripherals, which I'm interested in - however not at that extra pay they want from me. Even considering my current M10H being sold.


----------



## toncij

vvoid said:


> All current Z390 mid-highend boards seem to have their downsides. I'm also still unsure, here's a quick breakdown from my point of view.
> 
> Asus: Hero is too weak VRM-wise and way overpriced. Gene is good, but even more expensive and I don't like the DIMM.2 slot limiting PCI-E to x8. In practice this means don't use DIMM.2, so what's the point including it?? Strix-F might be worth a consideration, not that much different to Hero.
> 
> Asrock: Taichi would be my only consideration, but buildzoid pulled its VRM to pieces. Not quite sure though, it might be sufficient imo. Anyways, it doesn't have a temp-header and price isn't exactly cheap either for what it offers, so I guess it's out for me. (Want to monitor water temperature.).
> 
> MSI: Nah, ACE would be my only candidate, but also no temp-header and VRM is kind of old-school.
> 
> Gigabyte: Elite/Pro/Ultra/Master all have great VRM, but there's more to consider. For me, their memory T-topology kills all of them. I have some good Samsung B-die memory and I want to push it. That rules out all of the Gigabyte boards sadly.
> 
> EVGA: FTW somewhat unknown, but it also has no a temp-header, so... not for me.
> 
> Recommendations? Feels like 'pick your poison' at this point...  For me, the best compromise probably would be Asus Gene, but I feel it's a little too expensive so I'm hesitating...


Just a quick note: Asus Z370 Formula is running a 9900K on about 1.36V 5GHz just fine. No water. With water, I can probably go 5.2 (still can but I'm afraid of burning it on AVX loads).


Regarding M2.DIMM, well, there is no solution to only 16x on the CPU. If you need dual M2 on DIMM.2, you're out of 8x. Can't fix what doesn't exist. 8x is enough for even 2080Ti.



AlphaC said:


> STRIX z390-E runs around 10°C hotter than the Hero (58°C vs 49°C) with i7-9700k overclocked in AIDA64 FPU (AVX) per gecid due to the lack of heatpipe and also the different input/output filtering capacitor and chokes. gecid tests with a NH-U14S so that's with 1500RPM fan airflow over the VRM heatsink and using an i7.
> 
> The roughest testing I've seen is on quasarzone and playwares which both use Prime95 AVX i9-9900K with no fans.
> 
> Overclockers.ru uses LinX without fans, their testing of Maximus XI Hero:
> 
> 
> Overclockers.ru testing of STRIX Z390-E without fans
> 
> As on z370 I'm compiling temperatures, if someone wants to help I can put it in a google doc but for now it's locally stored.


Prime95? AVX or not?


----------



## Falkentyne

vvoid said:


> All current Z390 mid-highend boards seem to have their downsides. I'm also still unsure, here's a quick breakdown from my point of view.
> 
> Asus: Hero is too weak VRM-wise and way overpriced. Gene is good, but even more expensive and I don't like the DIMM.2 slot limiting PCI-E to x8. In practice this means don't use DIMM.2, so what's the point including it?? Strix-F might be worth a consideration, not that much different to Hero.
> 
> Asrock: Taichi would be my only consideration, but buildzoid pulled its VRM to pieces. Not quite sure though, it might be sufficient imo. Anyways, it doesn't have a temp-header and price isn't exactly cheap either for what it offers, so I guess it's out for me. (Want to monitor water temperature.).
> 
> MSI: Nah, ACE would be my only candidate, but also no temp-header and VRM is kind of old-school.
> 
> Gigabyte: Elite/Pro/Ultra/Master all have great VRM, but there's more to consider. For me, their memory T-topology kills all of them. I have some good Samsung B-die memory and I want to push it. That rules out all of the Gigabyte boards sadly.
> 
> EVGA: FTW somewhat unknown, but it also has no a temp-header, so... not for me.
> 
> Recommendations? Feels like 'pick your poison' at this point...  For me, the best compromise probably would be Asus Gene, but I feel it's a little too expensive so I'm hesitating...


There's always the Maximus Extreme !


----------



## Shark00n

AlphaC said:


> TUF is pretty pathetic for the money IMO as they don't use doublers or the higher quality mosfets. Due to the use of the 4C06N low side fet without doubler it is a weaker board than one with a 4c024N with ~33% less RDS(on) and a larger heatsink such as the Z390M Edge. In that particular situation, it means your low side RDS(on) isn't as massively reduced since it has to handle 1/4 of the total current through every pair of them and the high side fet switches on 1/4 of the time rather than 1/8 of the time. Because they aren't using powerstages or powerblocks there's no way to very effectively reduce the RDS(on) of the low side fet (no Schottky diode either) and they need to use resistors and such to do sensing.
> 
> Onsemi's calculator suggests that at 193A for 4 phases with 2x 4C024N low side (8 low side mosfets) it's going to be ~4.8W of low side conduction losses per pair at 1.35V. That's a very large amount that's going to be difficult to cool. With a 4C06 as on the TUF it'll be ~6.2W of losses per pair which is basically not going to happen with that heatsink they have on there. For the implementations with Powerpak the low side conduction losses are the largest factor.
> 
> For a hexcore the 138A current limit would result in ~3.1W per pair of 4c06N (on the TUF) or ~2.4W per pair of 4C024N on the MSI Edge. This is much more manageable.
> 
> If you look a few pages ago I posted a MILR68 inductor for the TUF. That means versus the R42 inductor on the MSI lower midrange boards it requires a larger inductor by design, or the inductor is simply oversized.
> 
> The Z390M Edge is a better buy even when you don't count the VRM or the larger VRM heatsink, the audio is better since it's using ALC1220P-VB2 instead of some custom 1200S solution (with only 3 rear jacks) and the memory support on the QVL is higher. There's also debug status LEDs on the Edge for if things go wrong.
> 
> It remains to be seen how well the Gigabyte implementation is on mATX (Onsemi suggests about 1.9W per low side fet will need to be dissipated for a octocore or ~0.44W for hexcore), but even if it were slightly better due to use of a doubler & 2 more phases, the Edge mATX is a better all around board in terms of design decisions such as ALC892 and the push pin heatsink. It's not an Aorus board so I don't expect anything really amazing (and B450 shows that going off branding is a fallacy) since AFAIK only recently the Aorus division is focused on overclocking similar to the difference between ROG and PRIME.


Very helpful post!

I was wondering if your opinion has changed at all meanwhile? Do you think the MSI Edge is still a better option regarding the TUF and Gigabyte Z390M?
I don't need onboard audio or WiFi, just want the highest quality components and performance with a 9900K. Seems like that's difficult with mATX boards right now.
I would go with the Gene but there's a big price gap. Although it has better power-delivery it also has a bunch of features I have no particular need for. And it only has 2 RAM slots, I need 4.

Thanks


----------



## lb_felipe

For a Maximus XI Extreme, does this setup make sense?

Intel Core i9-9900K
ASUS ROG Maximus XI Extreme
G.SKILL [Trident Z] F4-3733C17Q-64GTZKK
ASUS ROG-STRIX-RTX2080TI-O11G-GAMING
2 x Samsung 970 PRO 1TB
WD Red 10TB
Lian Li PC-O11 WGX
Seasonic PRIME Ultra 850 Titanium
EKWB EK-Velocity RGB - Nickel + Acetal
EKWB EK-XRES 140 Revo D5 RGB PWM
Hardware Labs Nemesis 360GTS
9 x Noctua NF-A12x25 PWM
EKWB EK-ACF Fitting 10/16mm - Black (6-pack)
EKWB EK-Tube ZMT Matte Black 15,9/9,5mm (3m RETAIL)
EKWB EK-CryoFuel Clear Premix 900 mL
EKWB EK-UNI Pump Bracket (120mm FAN) Vertical

I want it as quiet as possible.


----------



## Abaidor

lb_felipe said:


> For a Maximus XI Extreme, does this setup make sense?
> 
> Intel Core i9-9900K
> ASUS ROG Maximus XI Extreme
> G.SKILL [Trident Z] F4-3733C17Q-64GTZKK
> ASUS ROG-STRIX-RTX2080TI-O11G-GAMING
> 2 x Samsung 970 PRO 1TB
> WD Red 10TB
> Lian Li PC-O11 WGX
> Seasonic PRIME Ultra 850 Titanium
> EKWB EK-Velocity RGB - Nickel + Acetal
> EKWB EK-XRES 140 Revo D5 RGB PWM
> Hardware Labs Nemesis 360GTS
> 9 x Noctua NF-A12x25 PWM
> EKWB EK-ACF Fitting 10/16mm - Black (6-pack)
> EKWB EK-Tube ZMT Matte Black 15,9/9,5mm (3m RETAIL)
> EKWB EK-CryoFuel Clear Premix 900 mL
> EKWB EK-UNI Pump Bracket (120mm FAN) Vertical
> 
> I want it as quiet as possible.


2X Samsun 970 Pro 1TB - Waste of money and forget any RAID on this platform. You simply don't have the lanes to run 2X NVME drives at full speed through DMI unless you want 8X for the GPU (lose about 3% performance) and then use the DIMM 2.0 slot. Again no point in using 2 of them. What do you have in mind with the two Samys? I would get an intel 905 instead which will give you much faster random reads that matter but still it depends on your usage - if it is only a games PC then even the Samsung Pro is overkill. Buy more SSDs (even SATA) instead of the WD 10TB. 

I would also get the WD Gold 10Tb vs the RED - (I have it and it's great for what it is mad for)

Get a 1000 Watt PSU - I would! However I am biased and I never like borderline PSUs anyway. I want big units that run @ 50% and less (like the Corsair AXi big units) so the fan never turns on. 

I wouldn't get an "ACRYLIC" reservoir in 2018 - most good manufacturers offer glass tubes like Watercool with the Heatkiller Tube + D5 Pump - you won't believe how nicely machine this thing is until you hold it in your hands. 

Fittings - I use Bitspower in my main system but for my upcoming 9900K build I will get Barrows to test that are great value for money. 


Happy Shopping!


----------



## Brafall

Everything makes sense depending on the goal and budget.

If you're going for quiet and don't care about looks/temperature then consider a bequiet case. The Silent Base 601 for a good and quiet mid-range case or the Dark Base Pro 900 for a high end case.



AlphaC said:


> Horrible video title.
> 
> "Not the most efficient thing ever" when it is over 90% efficient per powerblock at 20A per phase and at *1.3V*. 200A x 1.3V = 260W and in reality most users won't push it that high. Recommended current limit per intel is 193A.
> 
> If you go by the datasheets it's ~ 2.7W at 20A per phase which if you go by efficiency = Power Out/ Power IN = (20A x 1.3V)/(20A x 1.3V +2.7W) = 90.5%
> 
> At this point I think GamersNexus is just picking the most controversial titles possible to get views.


He said on Reddit that the video is more negative than it should be. I'm happy with my Taichi and sticking to it as I believe it still is the best in its class.

Thanks for the advice Alpha!


----------



## lb_felipe

Abaidor said:


> 2X Samsun 970 Pro 1TB - Waste of money and forget any RAID on this platform. You simply don't have the lanes to run 2X NVME drives at full speed through DMI unless you want 8X for the GPU (lose about 3% performance) and then use the DIMM 2.0 slot. Again no point in using 2 of them. What do you have in mind with the two Samys? I would get an intel 905 instead which will give you much faster random reads that matter but still it depends on your usage - if it is only a games PC then even the Samsung Pro is overkill. Buy more SSDs (even SATA) instead of the WD 10TB.
> 
> I would also get the WD Gold 10Tb vs the RED - (I have it and it's great for what it is mad for)
> 
> Get a 1000 Watt PSU - I would! However I am biased and I never like borderline PSUs anyway. I want big units that run @ 50% and less (like the Corsair AXi big units) so the fan never turns on.
> 
> I wouldn't get an "ACRYLIC" reservoir in 2018 - most good manufacturers offer glass tubes like Watercool with the Heatkiller Tube + D5 Pump - you won't believe how nicely machine this thing is until you hold it in your hands.
> 
> Fittings - I use Bitspower in my main system but for my upcoming 9900K build I will get Barrows to test that are great value for money.
> 
> 
> Happy Shopping!


Thank you.

I would use two 970 PRO on DIMM.2. I know GPU would be capped to x8, but I think as you said I would lose just 3%. I would prefer 905, but AIC would block bottom fans airflow and M11E does not have U.2 port.

What are the advantages from Red to Gold?

Seen Cybenetic, 850W is even quieter than 1000W even all wattage range. Take a look on its database PDF.

I think EK has a glass reservoir. I will give a look at. Nice tip.

Which are the advantages of Bitspower rather than EK fittings. I will have to buy everythink together since I live in Brazil, so I can not make mistakes. Which fitting do you recommend for that loop, in that case, including angled adptors etc?



Brafall said:


> Everything makes sense depending on the goal and budget.
> 
> If you're going for quiet and don't care about looks/temperature then consider a bequiet case. The Silent Base 601 for a good and quiet mid-range case or the Dark Base Pro 900 for a high end case.
> 
> 
> He said on Reddit that the video is more negative than it should be. I'm happy with my Taichi and sticking to it as I believe it still is the best in its class.
> 
> Thanks for the advice Alpha!


I disagree with that. A M11E with a Core i7-8100 make no sense. Not a thing one. I waonder if I should water block the GPU too. These things have to make sense, you know. Please, help me. I ever never build a custom loop yet.

Note: bq! 601/801 miss USB-C front panel it is shame.


----------



## Telstar

chowbaby said:


> Anyone know if there is much difference across the maximus line between heatsinks? They all look a bit different but I don't know if that's mostly aesthetically driven.


Yes, it was in the old table from alphaC.
IIRC, about VRM capability (what they have is beyond my memory):
top Extreme and Apex
high: Gene
every other maximus XI board have the same (inferior to the above ones).


----------



## Abaidor

lb_felipe said:


> Thank you.
> 
> I would use two 970 PRO on DIMM.2. I know GPU would be capped to x8, but I think as you said I would lose just 3%. I would prefer 905, but AIC would block bottom fans airflow and M11E does not have U.2 port.


There are M2 -> U.2 adapters and with some proper sleeving and creativity you could put one on the DIMM 2.0 or on the board and install a U.2 905..

https://click.intel.com/u-2-to-m-2-...nvme-supporting-intel-solid-state-drives.html
https://www.startech.com/eu/HDD/Adapters/u2-m2-adapter-nvme~M2E4SFF8643
https://www.google.gr/search?q=u.2+...UIDigB&biw=1840&bih=939#imgrc=lX7PW2ZCAzc-UM:




> What are the advantages from Red to Gold?


The Red (5400rpm) is not actually comparable to the Gold (7200rpm) - the Red Pro is. The gold is an enterprise class drive, has 5 years warranty and is Helium filled. It's a Hitachi drive I think (WD owns them anyway). However, by looking at WD page they have changed their naming scheme once again and I can't see the Red or the Gold anymore. 

As I suspected they are replacing them with the HGST UltraStar 10TB (all the range actually) which has identical specs and is even a fit for a defective equivalent Gold in a RAID array. 

Anyway, the Gold/HGST Ultrastar is a faster drive and more reliable. 




> Which are the advantages of Bitspower rather than EK fittings. I will have to buy everythink together since I live in Brazil, so I can not make mistakes. Which fitting do you recommend for that loop, in that case, including angled adptors etc?


Bitspower are rated as the highest quality fitting around but some find them overpriced (and they are a bit). They have the greatest range of fitting (BY FAR) from any manufacturer and I have been using them for years with no complaints. 

However, if they come up expensive for you a good alternative is Barrows (search them). 

Nobody can really recommend any specific fittings for you before you design you loop and post an image. It is simply not possible to do. I suggest that you start a thread/build log on the watercooling section with all the details and take it from there.

It takes time to design a proper build, research all the parts and gathers them and I don't want to sound pessimistic but there is almost ZERO chance that you will get everything for a custom build in one order. There is always something missing and you will need to order again unfortunately. 

Anyway, we are off-topic here so I suggest you begin at the watercooling section.


----------



## shaolin95

vvoid said:


> MSI: Nah, ACE would be my only candidate, but also no temp-header and VRM is kind of old-school.


Also no iGPU support on this one.


----------



## Shark00n

Are posts disapearing?


----------



## Nephalem89

Hello everyone coming soon I will mount a team with a 9900k and a EVGA 2080ti.. I look for the best plate to get to the last MHz to my 9900k that you recommend thanks


----------



## et7878789

Nephalem89 said:


> Hello everyone coming soon I will mount a team with a 9900k and a EVGA 2080ti.. I look for the best plate to get to the last MHz to my 9900k that you recommend thanks


i got a
Malaysia
week30 i9-9900K (my friend borrow me)
week32 i7-9700K

simple test with ASUS ROG MAXIMUS X HERO (Z370 M10H)/ ASUS ROG MAXIMUS XI HERO(Z390 M11H)
H150i 360 AIO with six fan(ML120).

1.open BIOS lowest V-core @M10H
50X 9900K set1.150(run1.136V) 9700K set1.850(run1.168V)
51X 9900K set1.185(run1.168V) 9700K set1.225(run1.216V)
52X 9900K set1.225(run1.216V) 9700K set1.270(run1.264V)
53X 9900K set1.270(run1.264V) 9700K set1.305(run1.296V)
54X 9900K set1.325(run1.312V) 9700K set1.375(run1.360V)
55X 9900K set1.410(run1.408V) 9700K set1.485(run1.472V)
*to start windows to desktop you must add about 0.15V or more on V-core.

maybe 9700K are binning from 9900K second quality /lower quality ? and remove HT to get a lower temperature and more overclock possibility.


2. 9900K 5GHz 0AVX @4 phase M10H is no problem to burn in test.
If you want to get higher GHz, your cooler will die first instead of VRM.
I think the new low-temp solder TIM is not very good for 9900K, but for 9700K that can be accept a little.
or delid is a good way to OC 9900K.

3. 8GEN CPU IMC maybe is better than 9 GEN CPU.
@M10H i3 8100 can [email protected],i9 9900K/i7 9700K only can [email protected]
@M10H i3 8100 can [email protected],i9 9900K/i7 9700K only can [email protected]
B-die CL18-20-20-44 1.35V
M10H

4.and you can find YOUTUBE 8700K/9700K/[email protected] gaming test

9900k early ver maybe have some HW bug, cause the giming FPS will lower than the other.

So I decided to cancel Amazon's 9900K order. 9700K YES!


----------



## Robbært

et7878789 said:


> 4.and you can find YOUTUBE 8700K/9700K/[email protected] gaming test
> 
> 9900k early ver maybe have some HW bug, cause the giming FPS will lower than the other.


can it be these gaming tests do test nothing since videocard capped at ultra?
nvidia driver tests?


----------



## Robostyle

et7878789 said:


> i got a
> Malaysia
> week30 i9-9900K (my friend borrow me)
> week32 i7-9700K
> 
> simple test with ASUS ROG MAXIMUS X HERO (Z370 M10H)/ ASUS ROG MAXIMUS XI HERO(Z390 M11H)
> H150i 360 AIO ML120
> 
> 1.open BIOS lowest V-core @M10H
> 50X 9900K set1.150(run1.136V) 9700K set1.850(run1.168V)
> 51X 9900K set1.185(run1.168V) 9700K set1.225(run1.216V)
> 52X 9900K set1.225(run1.216V) 9700K set1.270(run1.264V)
> 53X 9900K set1.270(run1.264V) 9700K set1.305(run1.296V)
> 54X 9900K set1.325(run1.312V) 9700K set1.375(run1.360V)
> 55X 9900K set1.410(run1.408V) 9700K set1.485(run1.472V)
> *to start windows to desktop you must at least about 0.15V on V-core. or aid more V-core.
> 
> maybe 9700K are binning from 9900K second quality /lower quality ? and remove HT to get a lower temperature and more overclock possibility.
> 
> 
> 2. 9900K 5GHz 0AVX @4 phase M10H is no problem to burn in test.
> If you want to get higher GHz, your cooler will die first instead of VRM.
> I think the new low-temp solder TIM is not very good for 9900K, but for 9700K that can be accept a little.
> or delid is a good way to OC 9900K.
> 
> 3. 8GEN CPU IMC maybe is better than 9 GEN CPU.
> @M10H i3 8100 can [email protected],i9 9900K/i7 9700K only can [email protected]
> @M10H i3 8100 can [email protected],i9 9900K/i7 9700K only can [email protected]
> B-die CL18-20-20-44 1.35V
> M10H
> 
> 4.and you can find YOUTUBE 8700K/9700K/[email protected] gaming test
> 
> 9900k early ver maybe have some HW bug, cause the giming FPS will lower than the other.
> 
> So I decided to cancel Amazon's 9900K order. 9700K YES!



Wait, I don’t get it.....ure saying, ur (friend’s) 9900K is capable of 5.5GHz at 1.4v??? Completely stable even with AVX?


----------



## et7878789

Robostyle said:


> Wait, I don’t get it.....ure saying, ur (friend’s) 9900K is capable of 5.5GHz at 1.4v??? Completely stable even with AVX?


sorry, my translation cause some mistake.
that test just can see 9700K and 9900K between Vcore difference.








H150i with six fan (ML120).

to get in to windows or do some burn in test you need add more higher voltage.
and more higher GHz you will limit with bad-solder-TIM and temperature.
delid is necessary for 9900K to overclock more high frequence.



Robbært said:


> can it be these gaming tests do test nothing since videocard capped at ultra?
> nvidia driver tests?


i dont know... maybe it is
to me 9700k is more easy control temp and get high frequency and stable work in game , it was more worth to overclock.
or you can turn off your 9900k's HT, you will get a fake 9700K with high quality low voltage CPU.


----------



## Mo2k

Hey guys,

Just registered for asking this Question:

I have bought a i5 9600K and looking for the right board! 

I want to overclock to 5Ghz! 

First I wanted to buy Asrock Z370 Extreme4 then saw Z390 extreme4 for just some Euros more! 

But then I read here that the Z390 extreme is not recommended! 

Is that meant for i5 9600K at OC too or only for i7 Processors of 9th Gen? I especially mean table on Page 216 - is this table made „for i7 9Gen“ or does it also fit when using a i5 9600K?

Does a Z390 extreme4 handle a 9600K at OC? Or better stick to Z370 extreme4? Or shall I go with a board with better power solutions (VRM, heat sink, heat pipes)?

For now I would buy a Z390 Aorus Pro Wifi since it was recommended a few times in this thread! Evdnthough its a bit more expensive!

Good Choice? 

In Short: Which Board from 100-200 Euros for my 9600K at 5Ghz OC? 

Regards 🙂


----------



## Mo2k

Add:

Or shall I prefer Z370 Taichi before any Z390 Board, even if its the GB Aorus Pro Wifi?


----------



## porksmuggler

Mo2k said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> Just registered for asking this Question:
> 
> I have bought a i5 9600K and looking for the right board!
> 
> I want to overclock to 5Ghz!
> 
> First I wanted to buy Asrock Z370 Extreme4 then saw Z390 extreme4 for just some Euros more!
> 
> But then I read here that the Z390 extreme is not recommended!
> 
> Is that meant for i5 9600K at OC too or only for i7 Processors of 9th Gen? I especially mean table on Page 216 - is this table made „for i7 9Gen“ or does it also fit when using a i5 9600K?
> 
> Does a Z390 extreme4 handle a 9600K at OC? Or better stick to Z370 extreme4? Or shall I go with a board with better power solutions (VRM, heat sink, heat pipes)?
> 
> For now I would buy a Z390 Aorus Pro Wifi since it was recommended a few times in this thread! Evdnthough its a bit more expensive!
> 
> Good Choice?
> 
> In Short: Which Board from 100-200 Euros for my 9600K at 5Ghz OC?
> 
> Regards 🙂


All would be fine for the 9600K, but buying new, preference should be for the Z390 boards, unless significantly less for Z370. I consider the Z390 Aorus Pro Wifi the best value, but I'm not following Euro prices.


----------



## Robbært

Mo2k said:


> Just registered for asking this Question:
> I have bought a i5 9600K and looking for the right board!
> I want to overclock to 5Ghz!


hwtips list
9600k you should be fine with any z370/390 motherboard with >160A in Ta=25 column.
if you accept cooler at VRM any of them should be OK.


----------



## Mo2k

Trank you for your answers!

Ok, no 370 Board!

So the decision must be between: 

Aorus z390 Pro Wifi at 400A (200 Euro)
Z390 Phantom Gaming6 at 170A (198 Euro)
Z390 Extreme4 at 170A (170 Euro)

I think in case of small price difference I should go with Aorus Pro Wifi! It has Integration Wifi, better power solution and more USB in Backpanel! 

I had a Gigabyte GA-EP35-DS4 now for about ten years without any further problem. But in Germany nobody recommends a Gigabyte Board at the moment, all go with Asrock or Asus. Dont know why. Do you have any idea? 

Is GB UEFI such a mess or can I set all things like in Asrock/Asus Uefi but maybe just a bit more complicated?

Or is there another reason? 

Regards


----------



## Robbært

Mo2k said:


> nobody recommends a Gigabyte Board at the moment, all go with Asrock or Asus. Dont know why. Do you have any idea?


z370(b360) gigabyte was worst.
z370 asrock extreme4 was best for money



Mo2k said:


> (BIOS) Or is there another reason?


yes, MSI BIOS "colored" i'm not gonna explain this.


----------



## Mo2k

Robbært;27711864 said:


> Mo2k said:
> 
> 
> 
> nobody recommends a Gigabyte Board at the moment, all go with Asrock or Asus. Dont know why. Do you have any idea?
> 
> 
> 
> z370(b360) gigabyte was worst.
> z370 asrock extreme4 was best for money
> 
> 
> 
> Mo2k said:
> 
> 
> 
> (BIOS) Or is there another reason?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> yes, MSI BIOS "colored" i'm not gonna explain this.
Click to expand...

Ah okay, that must be the reason! 

But how do we know that GB Z390 will be better? Just because of Specs? I haven‘t found any reviews or benchmarks for Z390 Aorus Pro (Wifi), only for ITX! 

And please explain your last sentence since I dont Unterstand it. do you mean that colored MSI Bios is even worse than GB or what do you mean? 🙂 

Thank you for your answer!


----------



## Timur Born

What are the correct points to measure voltages directly on the backplate of the CPU (resistors)? Which voltages can we measure there beside Vcore?


----------



## ScomComputers

Asus Z390F Gaming Sic639 version!
Ambient Temp: 23 C......
8cm Fan On The VRM Heatsink......


----------



## eric98k

Hexus Review: Asus ROG Strix Z390-I Gaming
https://hexus.net/tech/reviews/mainboard/123827-asus-rog-strix-z390-i-gaming/

i9-9900K + single-fan Noctua NH-D14

AI Overclocking:


> You see that our Core i9-9900K has '87 per cent silicon quality' and our cooler score, which is a single-fan Noctua NH-D14, is 167. Putting the two together results in a 4.8GHz all-core and 5.0GHz low-core speeds at 1.247V for AVX workloads and 1.19V for regular workloads. That's pretty good voltages, though the all-core overclock is only 100MHz faster than stock.
> 
> In fact, we are able to hit an all-core 5.0GHz manually using 1.325V - Asus doesn't want to go this high - but this sort of environment-specific auto-overclocking is here to stay. What we can say is that, once applied, the board was completely stable, albeit representing a minor overclock.


OC:


> What these set of results shows is that all the talk of cooling, VRMs, and extra power phases don't appear to make that much of a difference for our test chip. The mini-ITX board does as well as the others, though examining more closely, the under-load voltage is 0.05V higher than the MSI, even though both are set to 1.35V in the BIOS.


----------



## Stockman

On the side topic of Z390 boards VRM noise..
Quick recap: I've owned both the Hero XI and Aorus Master. Both boards exhibit very audible, high pitch squealing that originates from the VRM with my 9700k. It's most noticeable while at idle - just moving the mouse around and dragging windows, for example. When gaming it's more of an intermittent chirping. I've tried different PSU, different GPU, all USB ports for mouse hookup, changing BIOS settings for VRM and VRM frequency, OC CPU vs no OC. Nothing made a difference. So I gave up thinking it's because I switched to an open frame case from traditional, closed case, making it easier to hear these sounds.

Today I decided to research it again so I swapped out the Aorus Master for my old ASRock Z77 Extreme 4 with 3770k. All other hardware is the same; still on open case. There is zero VRM whine/chirping from my old board - both with and without CPU OC.

To the experts on this thread: what is going on here? The Hero XI and Aorus Master exhibited the exact same symptoms. Is it the 9700k itself? Have VRMs really gotten noisier since 2012?
I find it hard to believe I bought two Z390 boards from different manufacturers that both have the same defect - if this should be called such. Thanks


----------



## sdch

Stockman said:


> On the side topic of Z390 boards VRM noise..
> Quick recap: I've owned both the Hero XI and Aorus Master. Both boards exhibit very audible, high pitch squealing that originates from the VRM with my 9700k. It's most noticeable while at idle - just moving the mouse around and dragging windows, for example. When gaming it's more of an intermittent chirping. I've tried different PSU, different GPU, all USB ports for mouse hookup, changing BIOS settings for VRM and VRM frequency, OC CPU vs no OC. Nothing made a difference. So I gave up thinking it's because I switched to an open frame case from traditional, closed case, making it easier to hear these sounds.
> 
> Today I decided to research it again so I swapped out the Aorus Master for my old ASRock Z77 Extreme 4 with 3770k. All other hardware is the same; still on open case. There is zero VRM whine/chirping from my old board - both with and without CPU OC.
> 
> To the experts on this thread: what is going on here? The Hero XI and Aorus Master exhibited the exact same symptoms. Is it the 9700k itself? Have VRMs really gotten noisier since 2012?
> I find it hard to believe I bought two Z390 boards from different manufacturers that both have the same defect - if this should be called such. Thanks


What you're talking about is "coil whine" (colloquial phrase), aka high frequency inductor vibrations, which you see on GPUs too. Unfortunately it's an issue that's here to stay with today's technology. There are some questionable workarounds which include adjusting switching frequency or phase configuration, swapping boards and hoping for a slightly different batch of board components, or even applying epoxy to the inductors to help isolate them better. The other thing you can do is simply get older and then you won't be able to hear it anymore since around the age of 40 you begin to greatly lose the ability to hear sounds above 4kHz.


----------



## AlphaC

https://news.mydrivers.com/1/602/602791_3.htm


> In the BIOS, the processor voltage is set to 1.2V, and all other defaults, the i9-9900K frequency is 4.7GHz. After 12 minutes of running the AIDA64 FPU, the processor temperature was 82 degrees and the MOS temperature was 93 degrees. It may seem horrible, but the MOSFET can withstand temperatures above 200 degrees, but usually the processor will start to down after the temperature rises to 105 degrees.


Z390 Pro Carbon 





Maximus XI Extreme confirmation (10X IR3555 for VCORE): http://www.itheat.com/view/7175.html


----------



## superino

Guys an advice, between but Asus maximus XI formula / extreme or the gigabyte z390 aorus Xtreme which is convenient?


----------



## marcolisi

Hey guys, what RAM would you suggest for an asus maximus extreme mounting the i9 9900k and how much RAM?

I would use my pc for very high demanding VR gaming with the latest headsets with wide (up to 200 degree) FOV and for video conversion.

Thanks!


----------



## Fornowagain

16GB (2X8GB) DDR4 C14 3200MHz using Samsung B-Die chips, e.g. G.Skill F4-3200C14D-16GTZR


----------



## GBT-MatthewH

It looks like most of the temperature data for various VRM designs is starting to trickle down as CPU's become available. One other data point most end users cannot see (without some very expensive equipment) is ripple. Thought I'd share some tests we ran on our Z390 Master vs a similar board (same price range atleast) with 8 phase in parallel to show what's going on under the hood past just temperature differences:

Z390 Master










Parallel 8 Phase


----------



## AlphaC

STRIX Z390-I :
https://lanoc.org/review/motherboards/7880-asus-rog-strix-z390-i-gaming?start=5
170°F= 77°C or so


Phantom ITX:
https://www.chiphell.com/portal.php?mod=view&aid=21036&page=3



----



@ Matt, thanks. It shows that the peak to peak is still smaller with a doubled 6 phases. Ultimately the peak to peak voltage delta is lower even if there is a more underdamped response.


Is that the default switching frequency in both cases? I thought the powerstages would run at 400-500kHz?


----------



## GBT-MatthewH

AlphaC said:


> @ Matt, thanks. It shows that the peak to peak is still smaller with a doubled 6 phases. Ultimately the peak to peak voltage delta is lower even if there is a more underdamped response.
> 
> 
> Is that the default switching frequency in both cases? I thought the powerstages would run at 400-500kHz?


The boards are default, but the scope is set to scan at 300


----------



## Sneakyshadow

vvoid said:


> All current Z390 mid-highend boards seem to have their downsides. I'm also still unsure, here's a quick breakdown from my point of view.
> 
> Gigabyte: Elite/Pro/Ultra/Master all have great VRM, but there's more to consider. For me, their memory T-topology kills all of them. I have some good Samsung B-die memory and I want to push it. That rules out all of the Gigabyte boards sadly.


Could anyone elaborate this more for me or point me in the right direction to find more information on this? I have never heard of this term before and I tried googling but could only find stuff related to Asus boards (I also PMd him directly but he has yet to respond). I am planning on getting a Gigabye Master and also using high speed B-die memory and OCing it and don't want this to be a possible issue.


----------



## Robbært

GBT-MatthewH said:


> The boards are default, but the scope is set to scan at 300


is it 12V line? (purple)


----------



## encrypted11

Nothing wrong with 2DPC T boards, the 4 DIMM maximus(s) were an example. They performed well on memory when all slots are populated.

It's probably the vendors's implementation (bios and hardware) that determines the maximum supported frequencies. But there are far more nuances you'd consider aside from the VRM though that's likely a key factor on top of your list.


----------



## vvoid

Sneakyshadow said:


> Could anyone elaborate this more for me or point me in the right direction to find more information on this? I have never heard of this term before and I tried googling but could only find stuff related to Asus boards (I also PMd him directly but he has yet to respond). I am planning on getting a Gigabye Master and also using high speed B-die memory and OCing it and don't want this to be a possible issue.


Might be I've used the term wrong and all are using T-topo by now, not sure. AFAIK T-topo means all 4 slots are connected with equal trace lengths/parameters in parallel on a PCB-level, thus performing on an equal level. In theory, this means there should be no need to lower clocks/timings when all 4 slots are populated.

Anyhow, all mem o/c tests I've seen seem to confirm that Gigabyte boards are not able to overclock 2 good sticks as high as some other boards, noticeably Asus. Sorry Gigabyte, but it seems to be a fact. Why this is, you'd have to tell us.


----------



## Timur Born

I set up a 9900K on a Gigabyte Aorus Master. Even with the plastic foil protection still on the VRM heatsinks I could not push the "VRM MOS" temperature over 75°C after 10 minutes of Realbench stress testing (over 220 W package power).

My main problem is not the board, but the CPU's inability to get the heat off its die. I hit 90 - 100°C at 5 GHz while my AIO (Arctic Liquid Freezer 240 with thick radiator and 4 push/pull fans) doesn't even reach 35°C at the hottest part of its radiator. So my VRM testing currently is limited my CPU trapping its heat inside.


----------



## zervun

superino said:


> Guys an advice, between but Asus maximus XI formula / extreme or the gigabyte z390 aorus Xtreme which is convenient?


I'm leaning towards the aorus Xtreme (which I can't find in stock anywhere) or the EVGA dark which isn't released yet but I don't like only the 2 memory slots.

I'd pull the trigger on the aorus xtreme but it looks like it is only available at newegg and out of stock.

I'm scared to touch the asus boards due to the VRM breakdowns from buildozer, the MSI godlike is a bit lackluster for the price and he didn't seem happy with the tachi vrm's either.


----------



## asdkj1740

gigabyte could have done better by putting bigger heatsink on its low end models.

huge props to msi heatsinks, after the joke on x370 carbon.


----------



## eric98k

asdkj1740 said:


> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZcqw-K1drY
> gigabyte could have done better by putting bigger heatsink on its low end models.
> 
> huge props to msi heatsinks, after the joke on x370 carbon.


 @AlphaC
He mentioned Asrock Z390 Pro4: 4x up1961s doublers for Vcore.


----------



## asdkj1740

eric98k said:


> @AlphaC
> He mentioned Asrock Z390 Pro4: 4x up1961s doublers for Vcore.


yeah it supprises me too.


----------



## Zyvv

superino said:


> Guys an advice, between but Asus maximus XI formula / extreme or the gigabyte z390 aorus Xtreme which is convenient?


one thing you need to check for aorus xtreme is the 90 degree 24pin connector, I had to cut a bigger opening in my Lianli pc-v3000 to properly connect the cable, but I'm doing acrylic backpanel anyway so no big deal for me. This might not work with some cases (even full/super tower) without modding. Might not be a problem if you dont care about aesthetic tho, since you can always extend the cable and route it from some opening at the far right and have a lot of cable showing.


----------



## zervun

Zyvv said:


> one thing you need to check for aorus xtreme is the 90 degree 24pin connector, I had to cut a bigger opening in my Lianli pc-v3000 to properly connect the cable, but I'm doing acrylic backpanel anyway so no big deal for me. This might not work with some cases (even full/super tower) without modding. Might not be a problem if you dont care about aesthetic tho, since you can always extend the cable and route it from some opening at the far right and have a lot of cable showing.


Where did you get the motherboard from? I can't find it in stock anywhere


----------



## AlphaC

eric98k said:


> @*AlphaC*
> He mentioned Asrock Z390 Pro4: 4x up1961s doublers for Vcore.


 It's still unheatsinked, but if the Phantom SLI has the same setup maybe I could move that up to the 150W board zone (thinkcomputers had throttling though it doesn't say which variant) as it should compare with the Tomahawk in the best case scenario (the main VRM heatsink is still low mass and push pin however). You have to keep in mind the board he tested wasn't the version with NIKOs. It has SM4337+SM4336 which is slightly worse than the Onsemi mosfets being used on competing boards in terms of RDS(on) but having better switching characteristics in terms of rise times.









see H370 Performance board with NIKOS: https://www.kitguru.net/components/...ty-h370-performance-motherboard-review/all/1/
which links to https://www.upi-semi.com/en-article-upi-681-1844


> The PEM interleaves the single PWM input and drives dual-phase synchronous buck power stages.


& H370 Pro4 with Sinopower : https://news.xfastest.com/review/48355/asrock-h370-pro4-xf/


Not sure why someone would buy it over the cheap Gigabyte boards though (mATX gaming / Gaming X is minimally more money than UD), as they were the only ones to work without airflow. Gigabyte needs to fix autovoltage obviously , maybe Hardwareunboxed didn't put any power limits (doesn't seem they did).

As a side note, that MSI board tested is very brown with traces basically showing through and doesn't seem to have a compelling featureset either. Not really a $130 board quality-wise when you compare it to their own ~$130 B360 / H370 Pro Carbon for example (https://www.kitguru.net/components/...-motherboard-review/all/1/?PageSpeed=noscript).

Ultimately what should have been tested is not the cheapest boards, but the boards people might actually buy on a tight budget. For ASUS there's really no reason to get the Z390-P whatsoever or anything less than Z390-A but if there was an insistence on testing all 4 main vendors maybe the TUF Pro could have been tested as the featuresets on those aren't absolutely abysmal and the heatsinks are screwed in (around $160 on Provantage so value for money is still horrible). For Asrock it could have been the Phantom SLI/ac or Extreme4 (price difference between the two is around $10...) depending on regional price and for MSI it could have been the Tomahawk and Edge mATX. Even the half un-heatsinked MSI Gaming Plus would have been a better choice as it is using the Onsemi 4c029+4c024n mosfets.

That was a really poor showing by the Z390-P though. At that rate the only advantage over a STRIX H370-F that is cheaper is likely the memory settings. AFAIK H370 is locked to 2666MHz memory.


----------------------------------------------


Also the Z390 Phantom Gaming 6 appears to be doing decently. In AIDA64 testing (not FPU) with 200-220W in Hwmonitor it hit ~70°C VRM temp per thermal camera largely due to the heatpiped heatsink that supposedly weighs ~250g (245g per scale). It is mentioned that their board variant uses SM7341EHKP.


----------



## Timur Born

Does anyone need/want me to test the Gigabyte Aorus Master for anything specific? I'm the guy who turned off his AIO pump so that its hose exploded off due to heat, just to prove to Asus that their default BIOS settings kept the CPU from doing an emergency shutdown. So I'm not too shy to test the stuff the hurts.


----------



## Zyvv

zervun said:


> Where did you get the motherboard from? I can't find it in stock anywhere


I bought it last Tuesday at newegg, should have more coming in December


----------



## GBT-MatthewH

zervun said:


> I'm leaning towards the aorus Xtreme (which I can't find in stock anywhere).


Should have more next week @ newegg.


----------



## chowbaby

AlphaC said:


> It's still unheatsinked, but if the Phantom SLI has the same setup maybe I could move that up to the 150W board zone (thinkcomputers had throttling though it doesn't say which variant) as it should compare with the Tomahawk in the best case scenario (the main VRM heatsink is still low mass and push pin however). You have to keep in mind the board he tested wasn't the version with NIKOs. It has SM4337+SM4336 which is slightly worse than the Onsemi mosfets being used on competing boards in terms of RDS(on) but having better switching characteristics in terms of rise times.
> View attachment 231442
> 
> 
> 
> see H370 Performance board with NIKOS: https://www.kitguru.net/components/...ty-h370-performance-motherboard-review/all/1/
> which links to https://www.upi-semi.com/en-article-upi-681-1844
> & H370 Pro4 with Sinopower : https://news.xfastest.com/review/48355/asrock-h370-pro4-xf/
> 
> 
> Not sure why someone would buy it over the cheap Gigabyte boards though (mATX gaming / Gaming X is minimally more money than UD), as they were the only ones to work without airflow. Gigabyte needs to fix autovoltage obviously , maybe Hardwareunboxed didn't put any power limits (doesn't seem they did).
> 
> As a side note, that MSI board tested is very brown with traces basically showing through and doesn't seem to have a compelling featureset either. Not really a $130 board quality-wise when you compare it to their own ~$130 B360 / H370 Pro Carbon for example (https://www.kitguru.net/components/...-motherboard-review/all/1/?PageSpeed=noscript).
> 
> Ultimately what should have been tested is not the cheapest boards, but the boards people might actually buy on a tight budget. For ASUS there's really no reason to get the Z390-P whatsoever or anything less than Z390-A but if there was an insistence on testing all 4 main vendors maybe the TUF Pro could have been tested as the featuresets on those aren't absolutely abysmal and the heatsinks are screwed in (around $160 on Provantage so value for money is still horrible). For Asrock it could have been the Phantom SLI/ac or Extreme4 (price difference between the two is around $10...) depending on regional price and for MSI it could have been the Tomahawk and Edge mATX. Even the half un-heatsinked MSI Gaming Plus would have been a better choice as it is using the Onsemi 4c029+4c024n mosfets.
> 
> That was a really poor showing by the Z390-P though. At that rate the only advantage over a STRIX H370-F that is cheaper is likely the memory settings. AFAIK H370 is locked to 2666MHz memory.
> 
> 
> ----------------------------------------------
> 
> 
> Also the Z390 Phantom Gaming 6 appears to be doing decently. In AIDA64 testing (not FPU) with 200-220W in Hwmonitor it hit ~70°C VRM temp per thermal camera largely due to the heatpiped heatsink that supposedly weighs ~250g (245g per scale). It is mentioned that their board variant uses SM7341EHKP.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VeTuJJmDT8


Anyone know if the Asrock Z390 Phantom Gaming 6 is basically the same as the Taichi, Taichi Ultimate and Phantom Gaming 9 design wise except that it lacks wifi and is missing a ethernet port? 

I think I read that the heatsinks might be slightly different but I can't tell by looking. I did notice that the 6 didn't make the silicon lottery QVL for coffee lake refresh.


----------



## AlphaC

chowbaby said:


> Anyone know if the Asrock Z390 Phantom Gaming 6 is basically the same as the Taichi, Taichi Ultimate and Phantom Gaming 9 design wise except that it lacks wifi and is missing a ethernet port?
> 
> I think I read that the heatsinks might be slightly different but I can't tell by looking. I did notice that the 6 didn't make the silicon lottery QVL for coffee lake refresh.


 Uh no , this time around the power design is completely different between the Gaming 6 and Taichi.

The Phantom Gaming 6 appears to have 7 driver ICs on the back, likely 5 for the VCORE drivers (up1965P). The powerblocks used were around 90% efficient at the i7-8700K load points but now at the 138A to 193A load point and with the new 5V drivers they have on the back it is going to dip to somewhere around 87% for both variants which is only marginally better than what you would get from the Gigabyte non-Aorus and MSI midrange boards which are going to be around 83-85% per Onsemi's (mosfet manufacturer) calculator. 

see what I found at one site for the Z390 Extreme4: https://www.overclock.net/forum/6-i...0-vrm-discussion-thread-311.html#post27705864

Taichi is using 5 doublers but the powerblocks used are TI NexFET powerblocks which are more efficient at the 5V PWM gate drive voltage. The efficiency is easily over 90% even at Intel's maximum 193A load. Also the IR35201 PWM is tried and true, if it wasn't better then MSI wouldn't be using it on the ACE instead of the UPI9521 as it isn't cheap to buy.

The Phantom Gaming 6 dilemma is not that it is a bad board, it's priced too high for a very minor update and too close to Taichi pricing (~$200). If it was ~$160 like the prior iteration it would likely fly off the shelves even in this current Z390 market. The pricing is even worse in Europe where Asrock boards command a price premium for whatever reason.

That said, what would make you pay extra for a Phantom Gaming 6 over an Aorus board? Even if the Aorus boards don't have Debug LED on the ones below the Ultra, the Aorus Pro has the debug lights. The Aorus Pro is stronger in most aspects besides 2.5G LAN: USB connectivity , VRM solution, fan headers, audio is better supposedly, and Gigabyte's dual BIOS situation is likely more refined than that of the Gaming 6.


----------



## peppi4k

Hey,


can anyone help me out?
im currently building a mATX system with a 9900k and searching for a Board that doesnt throttle the performance of my 9900k through the VRMs

currently i want to buy the MSI MPG Z390M GAMING EDGE AC.


any guess if this Board is ok for the 9900k?


----------



## Robbært

AlphaC said:


> Also the Z390 Phantom Gaming 6 appears to be doing decently. In AIDA64 testing (not FPU) with 200-220W in Hwmonitor it hit ~70°C VRM temp per thermal camera largely due to the heatpiped heatsink that supposedly weighs ~250g (245g per scale). It is mentioned that their board variant uses SM7341EHKP.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VeTuJJmDT8


That dude claimed in other video, he (will) use tests that "simulate real life load".
He also said in video "12+2 VRM" while it not.
His 9900K consume only 220W (like 8700K) and or throttle badly (221W / 1.382 = 159A 9900K OC?).
So here comes impossible 70C (10*SM7341) VRM with 9900K.
Very good 8700k motherboard.



chowbaby said:


> Anyone know if the Asrock Z390 Phantom Gaming 6 is basically the same as the Taichi, Taichi Ultimate and Phantom Gaming 9 design wise except that it lacks wifi and is missing a ethernet port?
> 
> I think I read that the heatsinks might be slightly different but I can't tell by looking. I did notice that the 6 didn't make the silicon lottery QVL for coffee lake refresh.


no, asrock phantom gaming 6 is same as extreme4 + heatpipe (true both for 370 and 390)
asrock *Z390* phantom gaming 6 with SM7341 similar to *Z370* taichi


----------



## Alexandrus

chowbaby said:


> Anyone know if the Asrock Z390 Phantom Gaming 6 is basically the same as the Taichi, Taichi Ultimate and Phantom Gaming 9 design wise except that it lacks wifi and is missing a ethernet port?
> 
> I think I read that the heatsinks might be slightly different but I can't tell by looking. I did notice that the 6 didn't make the silicon lottery QVL for coffee lake refresh.


No, as usual, the Gaming 6, be it Fatality or Phantom, are just an Extreme4 with a bit more features, but PCB and VRM wise it's identical. Just has the 2.5G LAN and different heatsinks and colorway, a few other things too, like Q-LED.


----------



## asdkj1740

again, toppc explains intel's temp protections, using msi ace with 9900k.

intels has set 2 limits for vrm temp, one is called "vr hard" meaning the highest hardest limit; another lower one is called "vr XXX" (i dont understand that word). these two limits are set by percentage, "vr hard" is set to be 100% and the lower limit "vr XXX" is 97%. this 3% differential is by intel definition.

for example if intel has the "vr hard" limit set at 100c, then the lower limit "vr XXX" would be 97c.
when vrm temp hits the lower limit at 97c, 9900k cpu clock will drop to 3600mhz (36x).
when vrm temp hits the highest limit ("vr hard") at 100c, 9900k cpu clock will drop to 800mhz (8x).

msi thinks this 3% gap is meaningless, because the cpu clock will eventually run at 800mhz (8x) over time given some serious loading to the cpu and vrm. therefore msi starts to extend this gap from 3% to 6%. 
also started from next generation msi will allow users to tweak these two limits manually; a new pwm ic is developing special for this function). 
by having larger gap between these two limit, the average cpu clock would be higher so the cpu performace drop would be smaller. the cpu can then run at 3600mhz (36x) prolonged time, less chances for vrm temp to hit the highest limit that would brake the cpu to 8x.

the reason behind this new tweak from msi is to protect the pcb. 
pcb is made of fibreglass that has 120c~130c highest operation temp in long run. in the past when pcb was in yellow color, the pcb's vrm area will turn to black color by serious overclocking. nowadays pcb is in dark color that we are hard to spot this changes implicating the high vrm temp.
to protect pcb longevity and increase cpu performance overall, vrm temp throttlings are needed. but the intel spec somehow hurting the pcb more becuase the cpu clock by intel spec will fluctuate frequently from 47x to 8x to 36x to 8x and so on. therefore msi has started to have 6% differential.

in the perspective of R&D, two limits for vrm temp are essentail.
if you are those who dont like vrm temp throttlings and want your mobo vrm to be stressed at most extensive loading at all time, then msi has still got you cover, by having a settings in msi bios called "cpu vrm over temp protection". in msi ace z390 the highest settings for this is 127c. however you should not expect 127c as an absolute value. none mobo manufacture can elimiate this margin of error for every mobo. when you check the vrm temp by software and see when vrm temp is reported at 124c the cpu then starts to throttle, it is normal but not inaccurate implementaion of vrm temp protection(throttling point).

msi has another settings in bios called "cpu light load'. it is to adjust the cpu voltages and protection accordingly by percentage.
lots of users apply fixed voltages for cpu, then the cpu voltages will be fixed at all time exogenously. while the msi cpu light load would adjust all overclocking related settings by percentage "in origin" (endogenously?).
intel has set the 9900k to be run at ~210w, which is in level 11 in msi cpu light load option. if you set this option to level 5, then 9900k power draw would drop to ~150w. the small level is msi cpu light low, the harder to the cpu to survive.
becuase the silicon differential of 9900k is so high, only those very good 9900k can survive in level 5 at ~150w.
by tweaking this single settings in msi bios, you then dont need to worry the rest, just set larger level if your cpu is not stable enough.
the true reason why z370 godlike is that 'hot' is msi set the cpu light load to level 21 becuase msi has one test example that need level 21 to pass the extreme situation.


----------



## marcolisi

I have just ordered the CORSAIR - VENGEANCE RGB Series 32GB (2PK 16GB) 3.2GHz DDR4 for the 9900K on the asus maximum xi extreme.

Was that a bad choice ? 

What do you think?

Of course I would overclock the RAM


----------



## NekoCatMao

Actually he said "vr hot". Other one I don't understand either.


----------



## Fornowagain

marcolisi said:


> I have just ordered the CORSAIR - VENGEANCE RGB Series 32GB (2PK 16GB) 3.2GHz DDR4 for the 9900K on the asus maximum xi extreme.
> 
> Was that a bad choice ?
> 
> What do you think?
> 
> Of course I would overclock the RAM


That looks like the old style RGB and only C16. Can't tell without the part number. But you can do better if it is.


----------



## marcolisi

Fornowagain said:


> marcolisi said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have just ordered the CORSAIR - VENGEANCE RGB Series 32GB (2PK 16GB) 3.2GHz DDR4 for the 9900K on the asus maximum xi extreme.
> 
> Was that a bad choice ?
> 
> What do you think?
> 
> Of course I would overclock the RAM
> 
> 
> 
> That looks like the old style RGB and only C16. Can't tell without the part number. But you can do better if it is.
Click to expand...

Model:CMR32GX4M2C3200C16

Would this help?

Please let me know if I should get something better and which one. I can return what I bought or even change the order.

In terms of more money, for more performance, what would be worth to get in place of the memory I have ordered above?

Thank you so so much!


----------



## marcolisi

Hey guys, do you think this power unit

EVGA - 1000W ATX12V / EPS12V GQ Modular Power Supply 
Model:210-GQ-1000-V1

Would be enough to power on an 
Asus maximus XI extreme mounting a i9 9900K overclocked to 5ghz on all cores and with a Noctua NH-D15 and a msi 2080 ti trio to ok overclock?

thanks!


----------



## The L33t

marcolisi said:


> Hey guys, do you think this power unit
> 
> EVGA - 1000W ATX12V / EPS12V GQ Modular Power Supply
> Model:210-GQ-1000-V1
> 
> Would be enough to power on an
> Asus maximus XI extreme mounting a i9 9900K overclocked to 5ghz on all cores and with a Noctua NH-D15 and a msi 2080 ti trio to ok overclock?
> 
> thanks!


Absolutely. Even a 850W will do just fine.


----------



## marcolisi

The L33t said:


> marcolisi said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hey guys, do you think this power unit
> 
> EVGA - 1000W ATX12V / EPS12V GQ Modular Power Supply
> Model:210-GQ-1000-V1
> 
> Would be enough to power on an
> Asus maximus XI extreme mounting a i9 9900K overclocked to 5ghz on all cores and with a Noctua NH-D15 and a msi 2080 ti trio to ok overclock?
> 
> thanks!
> 
> 
> 
> Absolutely. Even a 850W will do just fine.
Click to expand...

Thanks!

I have got also a coarsair cx750m on my old pc. Would that work too ?


----------



## cletus-cassidy

marcolisi said:


> I have just ordered the CORSAIR - VENGEANCE RGB Series 32GB (2PK 16GB) 3.2GHz DDR4 for the 9900K on the asus maximum xi extreme.
> 
> Was that a bad choice ?
> 
> What do you think?
> 
> Of course I would overclock the RAM


If you got ver 4.31 (you can see on the back of the dimm) you got a low bin Samsung b-die that overclocks ok. Otherwise it’s likely Hynix.


----------



## GreedyMuffin

marcolisi said:


> Thanks!
> 
> I have got also a coarsair cx750m on my old pc. Would that work too ?


It probably would, but the CX is a very cheap powersupply.

The real question is how do you think you're getting 5 gz on a 9900K with a noctua aircooler?


----------



## Timur Born

I pushed my CPU to 280 watts package power (105°C) on the Aorus Master, no problem for its VRM even with the protection stickers still on the VRM cooler.


----------



## marcolisi

https://youtu.be/95Ujni7-fVM

Doable and I do not go by the propaganda that floats around that goes either pro - intel or against intel, because there is no question that there is a lot of propaganda talk going around either directions to give credit or discredit 1 product vs another


----------



## marcolisi

cletus-cassidy said:


> marcolisi said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have just ordered the CORSAIR - VENGEANCE RGB Series 32GB (2PK 16GB) 3.2GHz DDR4 for the 9900K on the asus maximum xi extreme.
> 
> Was that a bad choice ?
> 
> What do you think?
> 
> Of course I would overclock the RAM
> 
> 
> 
> If you got ver 4.31 (you can see on the back of the dimm) you got a low bin Samsung b-die that overclocks ok. Otherwise it’s likely Hynix.
Click to expand...

What RAM would you suggest instead of this package I bought ?

It should arrive to me next week and then I can decide to return it and get better RAM if I want to


----------



## Tomate0815

With all that Maximus XI twin-8 (4-phase) stuff going on, i'm a little hesistant on going with ASUS this time. However, i'm interested in the WS-series and i'm hoping they might be different.

Does anybody know, what VRM components are used on the ASUS WS Z390 Pro (https://www.asus.com/us/Commercial-Servers-Workstations/WS-Z390-PRO/)?
I can't find anything on google and ASUS support isn't helping out. And I could only find pictures with the heatsinks on and none of the backside.
If anybody has some more infos, would you care to share, please?


----------



## Dillmiester

marcolisi said:


> Hey guys, do you think this power unit
> 
> EVGA - 1000W ATX12V / EPS12V GQ Modular Power Supply
> Model:210-GQ-1000-V1
> 
> Would be enough to power on an
> Asus maximus XI extreme mounting a i9 9900K overclocked to 5ghz on all cores and with a Noctua NH-D15 and a msi 2080 ti trio to ok overclock?
> 
> thanks!


I'd stay away from EVGA power supplies unless you wanna burn your house down.


----------



## Knjaz136

I finally managed to get my hands on 9900k, but since this thread added like 100 pages since I've last digged it, I'll just ask it here:
do I have anything to gain vrm/overclock wise if I get Aorus Ultra instead of Aorus Pro WiFi? I have zero need for ultra's additional pcie and M.2 slots. My plan is trying to hit 5ghz with nh-d15s if im lucky. Psu will be seasonic 750w platinum or gold.

Case will be CoolerMaster H500. (not a P or M)


----------



## cletus-cassidy

marcolisi said:


> cletus-cassidy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> marcolisi said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have just ordered the CORSAIR - VENGEANCE RGB Series 32GB (2PK 16GB) 3.2GHz DDR4 for the 9900K on the asus maximum xi extreme.
> 
> Was that a bad choice ?
> 
> What do you think?
> 
> Of course I would overclock the RAM
> 
> 
> 
> If you got ver 4.31 (you can see on the back of the dimm) you got a low bin Samsung b-die that overclocks ok. Otherwise it’s likely Hynix.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> What RAM would you suggest instead of this package I bought ?
> 
> It should arrive to me next week and then I can decide to return it and get better RAM if I want to
Click to expand...

I think this ram will be fine. With Intel you should get 3200mhz at CL16 with XMP. Even if Hynix you might get it a little faster. If you get lucky and get b-die from ver 4.31 you can push it further. I got my ver 4.31 32GB to 3600mhz CL16 and it was rated the same as yours.


----------



## Robbært

Knjaz136 said:


> I finally managed to get my hands on 9900k, but since this thread added like 100 pages since I've last digged it, I'll just ask it here:
> do I have anything to gain vrm/overclock wise if I get Aorus Ultra instead of Aorus Pro WiFi? I have zero need for ultra's additional pcie and M.2 slots. My plan is trying to hit 5ghz with nh-d15s if im lucky. Psu will be seasonic 750w platinum or gold.
> 
> Case will be CoolerMaster H500. (not a P or M)


aorus pro, -wifi and ultra is same.
elite missing heatpipe
pro heatpipe not direct touch
master has backplate (which helps cooling a lot) and few reports of coil whine (when 8700k idle)
you have to update bios
it can be you have to increase VCCSA/VCCIO to make high-speed ram stable
you have to disable win10 "fast startup" feature


----------



## Knjaz136

Robbært said:


> aorus pro, -wifi and ultra is same.
> elite missing heatpipe
> pro heatpipe not direct touch
> master has backplate (which helps cooling a lot) and few reports of coil whine (when 8700k idle)
> you have to update bios
> it can be you have to increase VCCSA/VCCIO to make high-speed ram stable
> you have to disable win10 "fast startup" feature


Thank you.
So Z390 Aorus Ultra's heatpipe makes direct contact, while Aorus Pro doesn't? Are there any tests in temp difference between Ultra and Pro/Pro Wifi ?


----------



## peppi4k

peppi4k said:


> Hey,
> 
> 
> can anyone help me out?
> im currently building a mATX system with a 9900k and searching for a Board that doesnt throttle the performance of my 9900k through the VRMs
> 
> currently i want to buy the MSI MPG Z390M GAMING EDGE AC.
> 
> 
> any guess if this Board is ok for the 9900k?





no one knows if the VRM will Throttle the CPU on allcore 4,7ghz?


----------



## Robbært

peppi4k said:


> no one knows if the VRM will Throttle the CPU on allcore 4,7ghz?


this board vrm 8*(4C024+4C029) is not made for overclocking 9900k

asus maximus xi gene if you (have money) don't care 2xdimm slots should be very good choice


----------



## peppi4k

the gene is 5+2
its better than the 8 of the MSI ?


----------



## Fornowagain

marcolisi said:


> Thanks!
> 
> I have got also a coarsair cx750m on my old pc. Would that work too ?


I wouldn't, CX is tier 4 or even 5. Not very good, especially V1

http://www.jonnyguru.com/modules.php?name=NDReviews&op=Story&reid=416


----------



## marcolisi

Dillmiester said:


> marcolisi said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hey guys, do you think this power unit
> 
> EVGA - 1000W ATX12V / EPS12V GQ Modular Power Supply
> Model:210-GQ-1000-V1
> 
> Would be enough to power on an
> Asus maximus XI extreme mounting a i9 9900K overclocked to 5ghz on all cores and with a Noctua NH-D15 and a msi 2080 ti trio to ok overclock?
> 
> thanks!
> 
> 
> 
> I'd stay away from EVGA power supplies unless you wanna burn your house down.
Click to expand...

2 years of running 24/7 my pc with a low level (bronze) power supply of corsair cx750m and nothing happened. 

I doubt I would burn my house with the step up I am having with the evga


----------



## Fornowagain

marcolisi said:


> Model:CMR32GX4M2C3200C16
> 
> Would this help?
> 
> Please let me know if I should get something better and which one. I can return what I bought or even change the order.
> 
> In terms of more money, for more performance, what would be worth to get in place of the memory I have ordered above?
> 
> Thank you so so much!


Yeah that's Hynix, you can do better for the price. 

https://www.reddit.com/r/Amd/comments/62vp2g/clearing_up_any_samsung_bdie_confusion_eg_on/

You want 3200 C14, cheapest on the b-die list. Not much point going faster, but the latency timings help a bit. RGB costs more for the pretty light. Do you need 32GB? 16Gb usually enough.


----------



## insektmute

I'm normally an Asus guy, but in light of the VRM on the XI's, I'm really torn now between the Z390 Aorus Ultra, Z390 Aorus Master, and Z390 Ace. Anyone spotted VRM thermal tests on the Ultra yet? I haven't seen any real reviews on that board, but it looks like maybe the most promising from a 'bank for the buck' perspective. Looking to run it with a 9600K.


----------



## marcolisi

cletus-cassidy said:


> marcolisi said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> cletus-cassidy said:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> marcolisi said:
> 
> 
> 
> I have just ordered the CORSAIR - VENGEANCE RGB Series 32GB (2PK 16GB) 3.2GHz DDR4 for the 9900K on the asus maximum xi extreme.
> 
> Was that a bad choice ?
> 
> What do you think?
> 
> Of course I would overclock the RAM
> 
> 
> 
> If you got ver 4.31 (you can see on the back of the dimm) you got a low bin Samsung b-die that overclocks ok. Otherwise it’s likely Hynix.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> What RAM would you suggest instead of this package I bought ?
> 
> It should arrive to me next week and then I can decide to return it and get better RAM if I want to
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I think this ram will be fine. With Intel you should get 3200mhz at CL16 with XMP. Even if Hynix you might get it a little faster. If you get lucky and get b-die from ver 4.31 you can push it further. I got my ver 4.31 32GB to 3600mhz CL16 and it was rated the same as yours.
Click to expand...

Do u see anything better here

https://www.bestbuy.com/site/comput...00&qp=currentprice_facet=Price~$250 - $499.99

compared to the CORSAIR - VENGEANCE RGB Series 32GB (2PK 16GB) 3.2GHz DDR4 I ordered from them?

What is the difference between c14 c16 and up?


----------



## Fornowagain

marcolisi said:


> Do u see anything better here
> 
> https://www.bestbuy.com/site/comput...00&qp=currentprice_facet=Price~$250 - $499.99
> 
> compared to the CORSAIR - VENGEANCE RGB Series 32GB (2PK 16GB) 3.2GHz DDR4 I ordered from them?
> 
> What is the difference between c14 c16 and up?


C14 to C16 just lower latency, so better timings. What it generally means with C14 is the chip manufacturer is Samsung. B-die is the one's you want. They overclock better and run tighter timings.

Check B-die list against the stock you can find.

e.g. CMW16GX4M2C3200C14

https://translate.google.de/transla...er-16-03-18-a-1161530.html&edit-text=&act=url


----------



## SpeedyIV

Dillmiester said:


> I'd stay away from EVGA power supplies unless you wanna burn your house down.


What is your issue with EGVA power supplies? Did one burn your house down?

I have been using EVGA power supplies for my last 3 builds and my house has not burned down yet. My latest Supernova G3 1000W is made by Super Flower which is one of the best PSU manufacturers out there. Johnny Guru's review gave it a 9.8 out of 10. He dinged them for price, and for having capacitors in some of the cables. Performance 10, Build Quality 10. You don't see those numbers often in his PSU reviews. Plenty of other in depth reviews gave it highest ratings as well. It also comes with 16 gauge cables (vs 18) has a 10 year warranty. Am I missing something?

http://www.jonnyguru.com/modules.php?name=NDReviews&op=Story&reid=494


----------



## zervun

SpeedyIV said:


> What is your issue with EGVA power supplies? Id one burn your house down?
> 
> I have been using EVGA power supplies for my last 3 builds and my house has not burned down yet. My latest Supernova G3 1000W is made by Super Flower which is one of the best PSU manufacturers out there. Johnny Guru's review gave it a 9.8 out of 10. He dinged them for price, and for having capacitors in some of the cables. Performance 10, Build Quality 10. You don't see those numbers often in his PSU reviews. Plenty of other in depth reviews gave it highest ratings as well. It also comes with 16 gauge cables (vs 18) has a 10 year warranty. Am I missing something?
> 
> http://www.jonnyguru.com/modules.php?name=NDReviews&op=Story&reid=494


I'm confused about this too. Most of the reviews are stellar for the EVGA's. I have 4 different EVGA models about 1000 watts and never had an issue. (2x 1300 gold, 1x 1200 gold and 1x 1600 titanium)


----------



## Jrw8FJBbLPkkJpB

What is the URL for the new z390 list? The rev7 link was removed.

Aslo, how does the new Tomahawk stand up against the z370 boards? I'm looking for a cheaper motherboard that will get my 8086k to 5ghz on all cores.


----------



## eric98k

Jrw8FJBbLPkkJpB said:


> What is the URL for the new z390 list? The rev7 link was removed.


Link to the post: https://www.overclock.net/forum/27657582-post2156.html. The attachment is updated.
@GBT-MatthewH
Any VRM info about C246-WU4? Seems it supports 9900K and ECC memory.


----------



## marcolisi

zervun said:


> SpeedyIV said:
> 
> 
> 
> What is your issue with EGVA power supplies? Id one burn your house down?
> 
> I have been using EVGA power supplies for my last 3 builds and my house has not burned down yet. My latest Supernova G3 1000W is made by Super Flower which is one of the best PSU manufacturers out there. Johnny Guru's review gave it a 9.8 out of 10. He dinged them for price, and for having capacitors in some of the cables. Performance 10, Build Quality 10. You don't see those numbers often in his PSU reviews. Plenty of other in depth reviews gave it highest ratings as well. It also comes with 16 gauge cables (vs 18) has a 10 year warranty. Am I missing something?
> 
> http://www.jonnyguru.com/modules.php?name=NDReviews&op=Story&reid=494
> 
> 
> 
> I'm confused about this too. Most of the reviews are stellar for the EVGA's. I have 4 different EVGA models about 1000 watts and never had an issue. (2x 1300 gold, 1x 1200 gold and 1x 1600 titanium)
Click to expand...

Guys , I guess it is about wanting me to buy 1 brand over another brand , same as like many of the posts I see around related to motherboards and cpu. 
Frankly, I see so many talks trying to demolish 1 brand or 1 model of a brand to have ppl buy another model from a different brand


----------



## porksmuggler

marcolisi said:


> Guys , I guess it is about wanting me to buy 1 brand over another brand , same as like many of the posts I see around related to motherboards and cpu.
> Frankly, I see so many talks trying to demolish 1 brand or 1 model of a brand to have ppl buy another model from a different brand


At any given time there's best picks, from a number of vendors. Sounds like the user had a bad experience with one EVGA unit. That's how the forums work, just like all the recommendations in this thread for Z390 boards, based on how the Z370 boards performed, or whatever individual board that person bought.

If the advice is not coming from a builder, someone who builds more systems than just personal use, its anecdotal. Better off following testing sites, several of them, not just JG, for PSUs.

EVGA PSUs are great, but for the money, there's plenty of others built by and rebranded the same. There's also plenty that are much quieter, my only complaint from a few client builds I did with them around the G2 models.

https://www.cybenetics.com/index.php?option=power-supplies

*Off-topic, but seems this thread is a catch-all now.


----------



## Fornowagain

marcolisi said:


> Guys , I guess it is about wanting me to buy 1 brand over another brand , same as like many of the posts I see around related to motherboards and cpu.
> Frankly, I see so many talks trying to demolish 1 brand or 1 model of a brand to have ppl buy another model from a different brand


Stick to the tier list and JonnyGuru reviews and you won't go far wrong.

http://www.jonnyguru.com/modules.php?name=NDReviews&op=Review_Cat&recatnum=13

https://linustechtips.com/main/topic/631048-psu-tier-list-updated/


----------



## postem

Dillmiester said:


> I'd stay away from EVGA power supplies unless you wanna burn your house down.


IMO Seasonic are the top tier PSUs. 
I had one 750 Seasonic MK bronze, a lightning strike down my building, and it fried the elevator circuit and several televisions and fridges.
My PSU still ran for more 2 weeks until it give up, but it not only managed to stay alive but also didnt damaged any hardware inside.

Replaced with a killed deal i got on a Seasonic-SS-850KM3 gold.
PSU is fantastic, always quiet, run 8700K OC + 1080 sli for 3 years.

https://www.amazon.com/Seasonic-SS-850KM3-Active-ATX12V-EPS12V/dp/B004ETEFTK

If you live in Europe or US, i cant recommend any other manufacturer, seasonic has the best quality, lowest ripple and noise psus. Even the cheaper versions are much better than corsair and other brand cheap psus.


----------



## shaolin95

zervun said:


> I'm confused about this too. Most of the reviews are stellar for the EVGA's. I have 4 different EVGA models about 1000 watts and never had an issue. (2x 1300 gold, 1x 1200 gold and 1x 1600 titanium)


Indeed and the current deals for the Evga 1000 G3 are a steal for sure!


----------



## tostitobandito

I looked at the EVGA G3 PSU's for my build but ended up getting a Corsair instead. The main thing the G3's have is compact size, but that also means a smaller fan and more noise because it's harder to cool them. Benchmarks back this up.

That said, nothing wrong with the EVGA G3 from what I've seen. I just had the space in my build for a bigger/better PSU so I did that instead. I ended up getting a Corsair HX1000 which is a platinum PSU, but only because I thought it was substantially better than the RMx 1000 and happened to be like the same price at the time. But yeah, the G3 is a great buy in general, and especially if space is at a premium in your build.


----------



## marcolisi

Fornowagain said:


> marcolisi said:
> 
> 
> 
> Do u see anything better here
> 
> https://www.bestbuy.com/site/comput...00&qp=currentprice_facet=Price~$250 - $499.99
> 
> compared to the CORSAIR - VENGEANCE RGB Series 32GB (2PK 16GB) 3.2GHz DDR4 I ordered from them?
> 
> What is the difference between c14 c16 and up?
> 
> 
> 
> C14 to C16 just lower latency, so better timings. What it generally means with C14 is the chip manufacturer is Samsung. B-die is the one's you want. They overclock better and run tighter timings.
> 
> Check B-die list against the stock you can find.
> 
> e.g. CMW16GX4M2C3200C14
> 
> https://translate.google.de/transla...er-16-03-18-a-1161530.html&edit-text=&act=url
Click to expand...

Hi there! Thanks for the link!

I do not see in that list, the ram I ordered. 

Is it because the ram I ordered is a 2 (× 16 GB) ram?

Would it be better to go for 4 x (8 gb) ram banks , losing the possibility to one day update to 64 GB 

or 

Is it better the idea of 2 × (16 gb) ram banks that would leave open the possibility to upgrade to 64 gb by using 2 more 16gb ?


----------



## ElectroManiac

Hey guys.

I want to do a 9600k/9700k mATX or ITX build, so would like to know what would be a good MB that won't break the bank on those forms? Will like to be able to OC any of those two CPU up to 5ghz at least.

This PC will be only use for gaming alone on a 1440p 144hz monitor. Still trying to decide if I'm going 9600k or 9700k to. Planing to pair any of this two with a 240mm rad.

Was checking the MSI boards as they come with AC Odyssey for free.


----------



## Nephalem89

Hello in this moment that motherboard is the best option for 9900k for oc, and gaming thanks a lot


----------



## Alex11223

For gaming it should not matter. Also it doesn't make much sense to buy 9900k just for gaming.


----------



## Robbært

Alex11223 said:


> For gaming it should not matter. Also it doesn't make much sense to buy 9900k just for gaming.


9900k is gaming cpu and nothing else.
9900 only problem is $370 8700k 4 of 5 cpu can reach 5GHz


----------



## Telstar

postem said:


> If you live in Europe or US, i cant recommend any other manufacturer, seasonic has the best quality, lowest ripple and noise psus. Even the cheaper versions are much better than corsair and other brand cheap psus.


I agree. I went with Corsair (HX850) last time only because of the fanless mode at low power, and because of their top-notch customer service.


----------



## Alex11223

Robbært said:


> 9900k is gaming cpu


Is there any game that has significant performance increase from 9900k (compared to 8700k or 9700k)? Especially in 1440p or 4K, not sure why would anyone buy such expensive CPU instead of better monitor.


----------



## Robbært

Alex11223 said:


> Is there any game that has significant performance increase from 9900k (compared to 8700k or 9700k)? Especially in 1440p or 4K, not sure why would anyone buy such expensive CPU instead of better monitor.


yep, 4k monitor and you will be video card capped with i5-8500.
why would they buy 9900?



Spoiler


----------



## marcolisi

Alex11223 said:


> Robbært;27719518 said:
> 
> 
> 
> 9900k is gaming cpu
> 
> 
> 
> Is there any game that has significant performance increase from 9900k (compared to 8700k or 9700k)? Especially in 1440p or 4K, not sure why would anyone buy such expensive CPU instead of better monitor.
Click to expand...

For VR. No need of a fancy monitor


----------



## marcolisi

Should I go for the 32GB(4x8GB) DDR4-4500MHz CL19-22-22-42 from g.skill

https://wccftech.com/gskill-ddr4-trident-z-rgb-dc-and-trident-z-4800-mhz-memory-kits/

Instead of the 

CORSAIR - VENGEANCE RGB Series 32GB (2PK 16GB) 3.2GHz DDR4 

https://www.bestbuy.com/site/corsai...th-rgb-lighting-black/6063200.p?skuId=6063200

CMR32GX4M2C3200C16

?

If I keep 32gb of the CMR32GX4M2C3200C16 , would I later be able somehow to add only 2× (8gb) of DDR4-4500MHz CL19 to the asus maximus XI extreme ?


----------



## shaolin95

Robbært said:


> 9900k is gaming cpu and nothing else.


Complete nonsense. The 9900k as a gaming only cpu is kind of wasted. May as well get the 8700 instead. The 9900k value comes from the performance not only for games but non game related apps. Inform yourself better.


----------



## Dillmiester

marcolisi said:


> Guys , I guess it is about wanting me to buy 1 brand over another brand , same as like many of the posts I see around related to motherboards and cpu.
> Frankly, I see so many talks trying to demolish 1 brand or 1 model of a brand to have ppl buy another model from a different brand


Its not about being loyal to one brand or another its just that a post was made on here I think originally he posted it on reddit with EVGA that he pretty much narrowed it down that it was the cause. But the funny thing was when I was helping someone choose a PSU I went on Newegg and saw an EVGA for a decent price and guess what, someone in the reviews said his EVGA almost caught on fire as well. Its when you have multiple correlations from multiple people using a product that have the exact same issue, does EVGA build thier own PSUs I guarantee not.


----------



## shaolin95

Dillmiester said:


> Its not about being loyal to one brand or another its just that a post was made on here I think originally he posted it on reddit with EVGA that he pretty much narrowed it down that it was the cause. But the funny thing was when I was helping someone choose a PSU I went on Newegg and saw an EVGA for a decent price and guess what, someone in the reviews said his EVGA almost caught on fire as well. Its when you have multiple correlations from multiple people using a product that have the exact same issue, does EVGA build thier own PSUs I guarantee not.


Of course they don't but go read the jonnyuguru review for the 1000 g3 for example and find out who makes it...hint is a great company and the reason it scored such high marks. 
You can find issues for any product if you Google for it. 
But hey go ahead with your weird anti EVGA crusade. Your loss...


----------



## Fornowagain

marcolisi said:


> snip


I'd love some of that G.Skill, forget the Corsair. 

You wouldn't mix the ram, ends up running all of it at the slowest frequency and timings of the set to accommodate the worst timings of the lot.

Why do you want 32GB?


----------



## Raghar

There was reason for v2 in some EVGA PSUs. Just because EVGA improved them after theirs massive screw up, it doesn't mean some EVGA PSUs didn't blow up.

Frankly, a lot of high end companies are screwing up badly, just receintly I heard complain about Seasonic PSU of not having that component that prevents current inrush when you connect PSU to grid. (And I personally can attest SSR-600TL has buzzing noise when PC is off or in sleep mode, which prevents sleep when your bed is in the same room and you still have hearing. I had to return it in 14 days deadline, then got into trouble because seller expected that delivery service that says ETA is Friday, doesn't deliver until Monday. It's kinda funny Seasonic increased prices recently.)


----------



## marcolisi

Fornowagain said:


> marcolisi said:
> 
> 
> 
> snip
> 
> 
> 
> I'd love some of that G.Skill, forget the Corsair.
> 
> You wouldn't mix the ram, ends up running all of it at the slowest frequency and timings of the set to accommodate the worst timings of the lot.
> 
> Why do you want 32GB?
Click to expand...

I would like 32gb because I would use my asus maximus extreme + i9 9900K to perform video conversion and play vr games on the pimax 8k(the highest demanding vr headset) in hopefully the widest fov of the headset for playing also sim car games using a 6 dof motion rig from dofreality.

I have a msi 2080 ti trio and I think the problem might still remain the video card limitation for playing smooth vr....but at this point I want to try to get a high end pc and see what are the results .

Do you think 32gb is over killing?

Do you know if these g.skill ram would become available in bestbuy stores?


----------



## Dillmiester

shaolin95 said:


> Of course they don't but go read the jonnyuguru review for the 1000 g3 for example and find out who makes it...hint is a great company and the reason it scored such high marks.
> You can find issues for any product if you Google for it.
> But hey go ahead with your weird anti EVGA crusade. Your loss...


Can't say Super Flower is what I think of when I think about companies that have years of proven design experience.

Power supply is something you dont want to mess around with, you should be weary when a company designs a product that has the potential to catch fire until you know exactly what product line or series has the affected component at least, I dont think thats good practice to continue to recomend it. If it was any other brand Id be saying the same thing if theres evidence to show it.


----------



## Fornowagain

marcolisi said:


> Do you think 32gb is over killing?
> 
> Do you know if these g.skill ram would become available in bestbuy stores?


Just from maximizing the overclock it's generally better to use only two sticks of ram, less strain on the memory controller.

32GB is application specific, i.e. video editing, 3D modeling. Just wondered if you knew how much you needed. Again generally, most systems won't use that much. And 2x16GB really limits your choices for the best overclocking b-die ram. See builders buying 32GB for bragging rights, when money is better spent elsewhere on the build. 

Sorry no Bestbuy in my country. Try this > https://benzhaomin.github.io/bdiefinder/

e.g. https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820232560


----------



## VeritronX

Super Flower made a design that beats Seasonic's in most metrics for less money, that's worthy of respect. That's the design used in the Evga G3's.

Any PSU can get sweat or mouse poop or something inside it and catch fire, it doesn't matter who made it or how good the design is. Did the guy sweat into the psu while moving the pc and short something out? Sneeze sideways while looking into the pc? we may never know, and people blame others before themselves most of the time regardless.

My Z370 itx board is dead, trips the psu safety.. and do I blame asrock? not in the slightest. It's been sitting next to me in an open case for months and I have no idea what caused it to fail.


----------



## shaolin95

VeritronX said:


> Super Flower made a design that beats Seasonic's in most metrics for less money, that's worthy of respect. That's the design used in the Evga G3's.
> 
> Any PSU can get sweat or mouse poop or something inside it and catch fire, it doesn't matter who made it or how good the design is. Did the guy sweat into the psu while moving the pc and short something out? Sneeze sideways while looking into the pc? we may never know, and people blame others before themselves most of the time regardless.
> 
> My Z370 itx board is dead, trips the psu safety.. and do I blame asrock? not in the slightest. It's been sitting next to me in an open case for months and I have no idea what caused it to fail.


Completely agree with all you said!


----------



## Robbært

MSI MPG Z390 Gaming Pro Carbon (10* 4C024+4C029)
9900K, 4.9GHz, *217W*, 2400MHz ram, noctua D15 2fan, LinX screenshot
down to 4.7Ghz, *188W*, 3200 ram, same 1.3v vcore, LinX screenshot

VRM 80C both, 217W and 188W runs
MSI z390 Pro Carbon VRM throttle 9900K even in LinX and 188W is low number for 8700k too.


----------



## Alexandrus

Knjaz136 said:


> Thank you.
> So Z390 Aorus Ultra's heatpipe makes direct contact, while Aorus Pro doesn't? Are there any tests in temp difference between Ultra and Pro/Pro Wifi ?


Makes no difference, really, or not in any real scenario for every day use.

I have the PRO, very solid board but the BIOS is awful, worse than awful, bugged down by a LOT of issues, even the latest version.
Smart FAN 5 settings not always saved, they sometimes revert to default for ALL fans.
Stupidly high voltage on CPU at boot, in BIOS even, my 8086K is kept at 5GHz in BIOS for some ******** reason only Gigabyte might understand, at ... wait for it, 1.465V. That's the stock config, everything on AUTO.
Wonderful, right ? And no way to set boot performance mode like on ASUS, or many other options.
The fun does not stop here, as in Windows, with all Power settings in Control Panel set as I like them, the CPU idles at 800MHz on ASUS Z370, but anywhere in the 1000-5000 MHz range on the AORUS Z390.

As I said, great board, build wise (looks are good, or decent, VRM is awesome, position of all fan headers is awesome, pretty much everything is awesome except the M.2 heatsinks which are pure crap, with no SSD installed they rattle, a lot, and with SSD installed, they simply do NOT put enough pressure so they still have slight play, whoever designed those should be punished by whip lashes ), the BIOS is garbage to say the least, in every single way (interface is garbage, organization wise is garbage, default settings are garbage, even the one feature I craved and was one of two reasons I bought this board, Smart FAN 5, is garbage interface wise, with only mouse based GUI and not text mode at all, takes forever to set 5 values per fan header).


----------



## marcolisi

Dillmiester said:


> shaolin95 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Of course they don't but go read the jonnyuguru review for the 1000 g3 for example and find out who makes it...hint is a great company and the reason it scored such high marks.
> You can find issues for any product if you Google for it.
> But hey go ahead with your weird anti EVGA crusade. Your loss...
> 
> 
> 
> Can't say Super Flower is what I think of when I think about companies that have years of proven design experience.
> 
> Power supply is something you dont want to mess around with, you should be weary when a company designs a product that has the potential to catch fire until you know exactly what product line or series has the affected component at least, I dont think thats good practice to continue to recomend it. If it was any other brand Id be saying the same thing if theres evidence to show it.
Click to expand...

Evidence ?

U mean people paid to write bad reviews....becuse u know that all these companies have such ppl going around writing bad reviews on purpose to swing buyers's choices around?


----------



## Dillmiester

marcolisi said:


> Evidence ?
> 
> U mean people paid to write bad reviews....becuse u know that all these companies have such ppl going around writing bad reviews on purpose to swing buyers's choices around?


I dont buy that for a second its the nature of these kind of electronics. Just like Z68 Motherboards that had the Vrm area light up.

However it doesnt change the fact there's something going on with them.

Believe me I love a good conspiracy.


----------



## Telstar

VeritronX said:


> Any PSU can get sweat or mouse poop or something inside it and catch fire, it doesn't matter who made it or how good the design is.


Actually, no. This means a bad designed PSU, or poor assembly, and quality control.


----------



## Nephalem89

Hello I'm dude to buy mother board.. My dude is where the buy... Gigabyte aorus extreme z390 or asus extrem xi z390 o msi goodlike z390 my dude is where the best inversion for maximum oc for my new 9900k thanks a lot


----------



## Falkentyne

Nephalem89 said:


> Hello I'm dude to buy mother board.. My dude is where the buy... Gigabyte aorus extreme z390 or asus extrem xi z390 o msi goodlike z390 my dude is where the best inversion for maximum oc for my new 9900k thanks a lot


If I may ask, why are you choosing the Xtreme over the Master?
Both have the 2x8 pins for the CPU. Isn't the Xtreme for people who want SLI or LN2? It's a nice board for its $230 more than the Master.
If all you want is maximum CPU overclock, you're better off using that price difference and buying a binned 9900K. An Extreme isn't going to help you if you get a bad clocking CPU.

Ask yourself:
Is $230 worth it?

Only buy something like this if you plan on going sub-zero. That's what these super high end boards are for. Otherwise just use that money for a high clocking pre-binned 9900K.


----------



## VeritronX

Telstar said:


> Actually, no. This means a bad designed PSU, or poor assembly, and quality control.


What makes you so sure? what if the protection circuitry is shorted first in a way that it doesn't notice? Nothing designed for mass production will cover every edge case.. I have a Seasonic G-series 650W psu sitting here from a mate's pc that has failed in such a way that it's always powered on even with nothing connected to it.. Doesn't mean Seasonic is bad.

The Leadex platform seems to rival or beat Seasonic's competition for build quality from what I've seen so far, to the point that I ordered in a G3 for my fileserver because it was the design I trusted the most after looking at teardowns and voltage regulation of different psu's on the market at the time.. including a Seasonic Prime.


----------



## Raghar

VeritronX said:


> Any PSU can get sweat


How can PSU sweat?


----------



## VeritronX

Raghar said:


> How can PSU sweat?


I said "get" sweat inside it, as in some can fall off you into it while you are working on or carrying the pc. Not everyone lives somewhere cool.. I have to wear a hat when working on my pc to prevent this as it gets to 30C+ in here at times (86F+)


----------



## eric98k

Buildzoid PCB Breakdown: Gigabyte Z390 Aorus Master


----------



## eric98k

GBT Z390 Designare review:
http://www.coolpc.com.tw/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=253842

2x Thunderbolt 3 ports (Intel JHL7540)
DisplayPort input for external graphic card
CPU lanes x8/x4/x4 distribution for NVMe RAID
Dual LAN Intel i211AT + i219V
Intel 9560 (1733Mbps) 802.11ac Wave2 + BT5.0
Dual bios but no switch
No Postcode or other debugging buttons

8+4-pin EPS power connector, 6-pin PCIe power connector
VRM heatsink: direct touch heatpipe
12+1 phases
PWM: ISL69138 (6+1)
Doublers: 6x ISL6617A
Vcc: 12x SiC634 (50A) DrMOS	
Vccgt: 1x SiC620A (60A) DrMOS


----------



## AlphaC

https://quasarzone.co.kr/bbs/board.php?bo_table=qc_qsz&wr_id=197855
Z390-I Aorus Pro WIFI , Prime95 AVX 4.9GHz with Kraken x62 AIO = 90°C









https://thinkcomputers.org/msi-mag-z390-tomahawk-motherboard-review/5/
Tomahawk @ 5.1GHz in AIDA64 CPU only (not AVX) on a 240 Kraken X52 AIO

https://hwtips.tistory.com/2679
MSI Pro carbon with heatsink removed and picture of the back of board

https://www.bodnara.co.kr/bbs/article.html?num=150594
Z390 Extreme4 article suggesting it is Sinopower SM7341EHKP


Z370 SOC Force hitting 4800Mhz memory (too bad it's not sold)








-----------------

Techspot's top Z390 boards: https://www.techspot.com/bestof/intel-z390-motherboards/
Best budget: Gigabyte Z390 UD ---- this is sort of debatable, I would think the other Gigabyte boards are better especially if you are looking for USB type-C or better audio than ALC887 (Z390 M Gaming has it)

Best value all rounder: Gigabyte Aorus Pro --- not debatable unless a competing board in terms of feature-set such as Z390 Phantom Gaming 6 (doesn't make sense given Taichi pricing right now) or Z390-F STRIX (z390-A also if the thermals hold up) dip massively in pricepoint
--> I'd give a runner-up to Designare for people that can make use of Thunderbolt , Displayport in, and PS/2 port, honestly. It's a minor price increase for the Thunderbolt.
--> Taichi non-ultimate is decently priced as well but this is not occurring worldwide

Best top end: MSI Godlike --- I would say Aorus Xtreme is a better board overall and if you're playing around with LN2 probably one of the ROG Gene/Apex boards is better for that

Best mATX: MSI Z390M Edge AC --- it has the superior featureset to Gigabyte's Z390 M Gaming but the VRM is weaker . The _true _best mATX would be ROG Gene.

Best ITX: Asrock Z390 Phantom ITX/ac --- no contest , no other ITX board has this strong of a tried-and-true VRM (same as Z370 version with better heastink) and Thunderbolt included



--------------


P.S. Aorus Master is on sale for $240 on Newegg after $20 rebate at the moment https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813145089
Aorus Pro non-WIFI on Amazon for $160 after clipping $20 coupon https://www.amazon.com/GIGABYTE-Z390-AORUS-PRO-Motherboard/dp/B07HRZRBRJ


----------



## kignt

In terms of overclockability... I have the z370 taichi now, but would getting the z390 aorus pro make any difference?


----------



## Robbært

kignt said:


> In terms of overclockability... I have the z370 taichi now, but would getting the z390 aorus pro make any difference?


if you plan to disable intel turbo / cpu idle it can be worth to consider.


----------



## marcolisi

Fornowagain said:


> marcolisi said:
> 
> 
> 
> Do you think 32gb is over killing?
> 
> Do you know if these g.skill ram would become available in bestbuy stores?
> 
> 
> 
> Just from maximizing the overclock it's generally better to use only two sticks of ram, less strain on the memory controller.
> 
> 32GB is application specific, i.e. video editing, 3D modeling. Just wondered if you knew how much you needed. Again generally, most systems won't use that much. And 2x16GB really limits your choices for the best overclocking b-die ram. See builders buying 32GB for bragging rights, when money is better spent elsewhere on the build.
> 
> Sorry no Bestbuy in my country. Try this > https://benzhaomin.github.io/bdiefinder/
> 
> e.g. https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820232560
Click to expand...

Today the memory cards arrived.
How do I checked that they are b-die RAM?

I am thinking to return these memory rams in 1-2 months because I would like to maybe get this instead 

F4-4266C17Q-32GTZR

https://www.gskill.com/en/product/f4-4266c17q-32gtzr

Have you seen it in any online store around? 

Also, can you please tell me if 4 RAM is worse than 2 RAM ? In other words would you keep the 2 × 16gb coarsair or go for the 4 × 8gb gskill ?

Is there any of these that you would suggest?

https://www.gskill.com/en/finder?cat=31&series=2860


----------



## voidcrus

Alexandrus said:


> Makes no difference, really, or not in any real scenario for every day use.
> 
> I have the PRO, very solid board but the BIOS is awful, worse than awful, bugged down by a LOT of issues, even the latest version.
> Smart FAN 5 settings not always saved, they sometimes revert to default for ALL fans.
> Stupidly high voltage on CPU at boot, in BIOS even, my 8086K is kept at 5GHz in BIOS for some ******** reason only Gigabyte might understand, at ... wait for it, 1.465V. That's the stock config, everything on AUTO.
> Wonderful, right ? And no way to set boot performance mode like on ASUS, or many other options.
> The fun does not stop here, as in Windows, with all Power settings in Control Panel set as I like them, the CPU idles at 800MHz on ASUS Z370, but anywhere in the 1000-5000 MHz range on the AORUS Z390.
> 
> As I said, great board, build wise (looks are good, or decent, VRM is awesome, position of all fan headers is awesome, pretty much everything is awesome except the M.2 heatsinks which are pure crap, with no SSD installed they rattle, a lot, and with SSD installed, they simply do NOT put enough pressure so they still have slight play, whoever designed those should be punished by whip lashes ), the BIOS is garbage to say the least, in every single way (interface is garbage, organization wise is garbage, default settings are garbage, even the one feature I craved and was one of two reasons I bought this board, Smart FAN 5, is garbage interface wise, with only mouse based GUI and not text mode at all, takes forever to set 5 values per fan header).



I don't get it why so many people have issues with Gigabyte BIOS.

- My fan settings still there from the day I set them up, no changes
- Stock voltage it supplied to 9700K was in 1.188-1.260 range, no issues
- Stock clocks were in 4.6-4.8 range, no overclock out of the box
- Parked CPU cores were idling at 800 MHz, as expected
- M.2 heatsink works and doesn't rattle, keeps my SX8200 at pretty much ambient 32C (which is actually bad for flash)
- I changed Smart FAN settings at BIOS with both keyboard and mouse, took may be 10 minutes for 4 fans, no issues. It's a bit easier with keyboard.
- Interface not pretty but it works and I had no issues finding things I need

That's AORUS Ultra with F4 bios and 9700K @ 4.9.

I must be doing something wrong.


----------



## Fornowagain

marcolisi said:


> Today the memory cards arrived.
> How do I checked that they are b-die RAM?
> 
> I am thinking to return these memory rams in 1-2 months because I would like to maybe get this instead
> 
> F4-4266C17Q-32GTZR
> 
> https://www.gskill.com/en/product/f4-4266c17q-32gtzr
> 
> Have you seen it in any online store around?
> 
> Also, can you please tell me if 4 RAM is worse than 2 RAM ? In other words would you keep the 2 × 16gb coarsair or go for the 4 × 8gb gskill ?
> 
> Is there any of these that you would suggest?
> 
> https://www.gskill.com/en/finder?cat=31&series=2860


You would have to plug them in and run thaiphoon, but those part numbers a going to be Hynix chips.

4 is worse than 2, and no I wouldn't keep the Corsair. As I said earlier I would buy 2x8GB b-die or if you really need 32GB then 2x16GB b-die if you can find it.

https://www.gskill.com/en/finder?ca...series=2860&prop_3=3200MHz&prop_4=14-14-14-34


----------



## elmor

marcolisi said:


> Today the memory cards arrived.
> How do I checked that they are b-die RAM?
> 
> I am thinking to return these memory rams in 1-2 months because I would like to maybe get this instead
> 
> F4-4266C17Q-32GTZR
> 
> https://www.gskill.com/en/product/f4-4266c17q-32gtzr
> 
> Have you seen it in any online store around?
> 
> Also, can you please tell me if 4 RAM is worse than 2 RAM ? In other words would you keep the 2 × 16gb coarsair or go for the 4 × 8gb gskill ?
> 
> Is there any of these that you would suggest?
> 
> https://www.gskill.com/en/finder?cat=31&series=2860





Fornowagain said:


> You would have to plug them in and run thaiphoon, but those part numbers a going to be Hynix chips.
> 
> 4 is worse than 2, and no I wouldn't keep the Corsair. As I said earlier I would buy 2x8GB b-die or if you really need 32GB then 2x16GB b-die if you can find it.
> 
> https://www.gskill.com/en/finder?ca...series=2860&prop_3=3200MHz&prop_4=14-14-14-34



Why would you say they are going to be Hynix-based? The "ver 4.31" marking indicates Samsung B-die.

http://forum.corsair.com/v3/showpost.php?p=958135&postcount=2


----------



## Sneakyshadow

eric98k said:


> Buildzoid PCB Breakdown: Gigabyte Z390 Aorus Master
> https://youtu.be/6J7qnr0YNH8


In this video he says this board (and most gigabyte boards) use T-topology. Would you get better performance overclocking using 4 sticks vs 2?


----------



## Fornowagain

Thank you for the information. You are correct to point out this is an assumption. The one's I've seen have been Hynix and they don't appear on any 'found to be' b-die list. At C16 3200, it is generally not Samsung, They usually at a premium and bin higher at C14. As i said, plug them in and find out to be sure


----------



## elmor

Fornowagain said:


> Thank you for the information. You are correct to point out this is an assumption. The one's I've seen have been Hynix and they don't appear on any 'found to be' b-die list. At C16 3200, it is generally not Samsung, They usually at a premium and bin higher at C14. As i said, plug them in and find out to be sure.


Fair enough, if he didn't already have the sticks and could read the label it would be a healthy assumption.


----------



## Alexandrus

voidcrus said:


> I don't get it why so many people have issues with Gigabyte BIOS.
> 
> - My fan settings still there from the day I set them up, no changes
> - Stock voltage it supplied to 9700K was in 1.188-1.260 range, no issues
> - Stock clocks were in 4.6-4.8 range, no overclock out of the box
> - Parked CPU cores were idling at 800 MHz, as expected
> - M.2 heatsink works and doesn't rattle, keeps my SX8200 at pretty much ambient 32C (which is actually bad for flash)
> - I changed Smart FAN settings at BIOS with both keyboard and mouse, took may be 10 minutes for 4 fans, no issues. It's a bit easier with keyboard.
> - Interface not pretty but it works and I had no issues finding things I need
> 
> That's AORUS Ultra with F4 bios and 9700K @ 4.9.
> 
> I must be doing something wrong.


Well, different boards, but one thing I very much doubt in what you are saying, and that is the part about the M.2 heatsinks not rattling.
I very much doubt Gigabyte uses different design for those based on which Z390 board they are for, and I am quite sure they are ALL bad design and rattle without the SSD under them and DO NOT apply enough pressure with the SSD under them. The screw that holds both heatsink and SSD should be designed with a spring, like the ones used for GPU heatsinks. Such a simple solution it's amazing how Gigabyte could fail so much in this.
Every other motherboard manufacturer uses either hard mounted M.2 heatsinks, with screws on both ends, on some solution that actually work well, does not rattle and applies more than enough pressure.
Funny enough, I have the same model SSD, SX8200, so that cannot be to blame.
The rest can be attributed to BIOS settings, maybe even the Smart FAN 5 issues, I guess, although I am far from being the only one that complains about that randomly losing settings.
I am not one to complain, but setting the fan curves with the mouse, or the way the mouse actually works in the Gigabyte BIOS, is far from easy. I had to resort to using the keyboard and SHIFT key, though that is not easy either. Should have been double interface, like on EVERY SINGLE OTHER motherboard manufacturer's BIOS (I think even MSI), with both text input fields and GUI.

I can probably guess why many people are having issues with the Gigabyte BIOS, it is because it's so badly designed it's almost stupid, there are options that are hard coded and cannot be changed, like the boot up performance, for instance, and so on and so forth.

Do not get me wrong, it's a good board, very well built, but the downsides are so bad it's incredible.


----------



## BradleyW

Any news on boards not loading the BIOS when used with an M.2 Samsung 970?


----------



## marcolisi

elmor said:


> Fornowagain said:
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you for the information. You are correct to point out this is an assumption. The one's I've seen have been Hynix and they don't appear on any 'found to be' b-die list. At C16 3200, it is generally not Samsung, They usually at a premium and bin higher at C14. As i said, plug them in and find out to be sure.
> 
> 
> 
> Fair enough, if he didn't already have the sticks and could read the label it would be a healthy assumption.
Click to expand...

I have them with me . 

Would they work on a z170 Deluxe or do they work only on news motherboards like the new z390 motherboard ?


----------



## marcolisi

Fornowagain said:


> marcolisi said:
> 
> 
> 
> Today the memory cards arrived.
> How do I checked that they are b-die RAM?
> 
> I am thinking to return these memory rams in 1-2 months because I would like to maybe get this instead
> 
> F4-4266C17Q-32GTZR
> 
> https://www.gskill.com/en/product/f4-4266c17q-32gtzr
> 
> Have you seen it in any online store around?
> 
> Also, can you please tell me if 4 RAM is worse than 2 RAM ? In other words would you keep the 2 × 16gb coarsair or go for the 4 × 8gb gskill ?
> 
> Is there any of these that you would suggest?
> 
> https://www.gskill.com/en/finder?cat=31&series=2860
> 
> 
> 
> You would have to plug them in and run thaiphoon, but those part numbers a going to be Hynix chips.
> 
> 4 is worse than 2, and no I wouldn't keep the Corsair. As I said earlier I would buy 2x8GB b-die or if you really need 32GB then 2x16GB b-die if you can find it.
> 
> https://www.gskill.com/en/finder?ca...series=2860&prop_3=3200MHz&prop_4=14-14-14-34
Click to expand...

Do you know where I can find the 2 x 16gb ram that u pointed 

[Trident Z RGB] F4-3200C14D-32GTZR

?


----------



## Fornowagain

marcolisi said:


> I have them with me .
> 
> Would they work on a z170 Deluxe or do they work only on news motherboards like the new z390 motherboard ?


DDR4 so yes should do on stock. Use Thaiphoon Burner to read the manufacturer's SPD. 



marcolisi said:


> Do you know where I can find the 2 x 16gb ram that u pointed
> 
> [Trident Z RGB] F4-3200C14D-32GTZR
> 
> ?


In the USA?

https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820232560
https://www.amazon.com/G-SKILL-TridentZ-288-Pin-Desktop-F4-3200C14D-32GTZR/dp/B071VRMFDQ


----------



## asdkj1740

aside from z390, what a nice split of 4 vcore phases' layout on this b360m ds3h.


----------



## marcolisi

Fornowagain said:


> marcolisi said:
> 
> 
> 
> Today the memory cards arrived.
> How do I checked that they are b-die RAM?
> 
> I am thinking to return these memory rams in 1-2 months because I would like to maybe get this instead
> 
> F4-4266C17Q-32GTZR
> 
> https://www.gskill.com/en/product/f4-4266c17q-32gtzr
> 
> Have you seen it in any online store around?
> 
> Also, can you please tell me if 4 RAM is worse than 2 RAM ? In other words would you keep the 2 × 16gb coarsair or go for the 4 × 8gb gskill ?
> 
> Is there any of these that you would suggest?
> 
> https://www.gskill.com/en/finder?cat=31&series=2860
> 
> 
> 
> You would have to plug them in and run thaiphoon, but those part numbers a going to be Hynix chips.
> 
> 4 is worse than 2, and no I wouldn't keep the Corsair. As I said earlier I would buy 2x8GB b-die or if you really need 32GB then 2x16GB b-die if you can find it.
> 
> https://www.gskill.com/en/finder?ca...series=2860&prop_3=3200MHz&prop_4=14-14-14-34
Click to expand...

https://www.gskill.com/en/product/f4-4000c19d-32gtzr

How about this?


----------



## Timur Born

Found some time for tinkering, so here we go for the first bug reports of my GB Aorus Master:

Vcore LLC settings are broken! This was tested with F7 beta, but I am quite sure that I first noticed the oddities using F5. F4 does not even allow to manually set Vcore or Vcore LLC, but for comparison I list its base values.

- LLC cannot be disabled via UEFI, Auto, Normal and Standard all set a LLC equivalent to Low.

- Low, Medium and High all set a LLC that is one step higher than what they suggest. Furthermore they disallow EasyTune from changing LLC setting from within Windows.

- Turbo, Extreme and Ultra set LLC correctly.

All tests were done using Prime v26.6 1344K (in-place FFT), Vcore was set to fixed 1.4 V, Multi-core Enhancement enabled, CPU multiplier set to 48x (no AVX offset). F7 sets Uncore to x43 on Auto (F4 sets to x47).

Vcore according to 2nd (ITE 8792E) sensor, measured via Hwinfo.

F4:

1.342 - 1.353, drops down to 1.265 at start of P95 load.

F7 beta, comparison of UEFI settings vs. EasyTune display vs. measured Vcore:



Code:


BIOS	EasyTune	HWinfo

Auto	Low		1.254 - 1.265
Normal	Low		1.254 - 1.265
Stand.	Low		1.254 - 1.265
Low	Standard*	1.287 - 1.298
Medium	Standard*	1.320 - 1.331
High	Standard*	1.353
Turbo	Turbo		1.397
Extreme	Extreme		1.419
Ultra	Ultra		1.441 - 1.452

*LLC settings in EasyTune display Standard, but are greyed out and locked.

Vcore measurements of EasyTune settings:



Code:


Stand.	1.221
Low	1.254 - 1.265
Medium	1.287 - 1.298
High	1.320
Turbo	1.386 - 1.397
Extreme	1.408 - 1.419
Ultra	1.452

Settings LLC to "Standard" via EasyTune software seems to be the only way to disable LLC. Setting "High" via UEFI results in a setting that cannot be achieved via EasyTune at all.


----------



## voidcrus

Alexandrus said:


> Well, different boards, but one thing I very much doubt in what you are saying, and that is the part about the M.2 heatsinks not rattling.
> I very much doubt Gigabyte uses different design for those based on which Z390 board they are for, and I am quite sure they are ALL bad design and rattle without the SSD under them and DO NOT apply enough pressure with the SSD under them. The screw that holds both heatsink and SSD should be designed with a spring, like the ones used for GPU heatsinks. Such a simple solution it's amazing how Gigabyte could fail so much in this.
> Every other motherboard manufacturer uses either hard mounted M.2 heatsinks, with screws on both ends, on some solution that actually work well, does not rattle and applies more than enough pressure.
> Funny enough, I have the same model SSD, SX8200, so that cannot be to blame.
> The rest can be attributed to BIOS settings, maybe even the Smart FAN 5 issues, I guess, although I am far from being the only one that complains about that randomly losing settings.
> I am not one to complain, but setting the fan curves with the mouse, or the way the mouse actually works in the Gigabyte BIOS, is far from easy. I had to resort to using the keyboard and SHIFT key, though that is not easy either. Should have been double interface, like on EVERY SINGLE OTHER motherboard manufacturer's BIOS (I think even MSI), with both text input fields and GUI.
> 
> I can probably guess why many people are having issues with the Gigabyte BIOS, it is because it's so badly designed it's almost stupid, there are options that are hard coded and cannot be changed, like the boot up performance, for instance, and so on and so forth.
> 
> Do not get me wrong, it's a good board, very well built, but the downsides are so bad it's incredible.


So what you saying is they rattle *without *the drive installed, I agree with that. But once the drive was there it fit pretty tight and I don't recall any movement. None of the M.2 slots rattle during operation either, I have silent build and would notice any sound.
Yes shift+keyboard is what I used too, again didn't took me long and only had to do it once.

Like for me those issues are so minor I don't really care.

My biggest gripe with this motherboard so far is that it's Auto settings for b-die that I'm using (F4-3200C15D-32GTZSK) are inadequate and it doesn't boot. That forces me to overclock with XMP profile enabled because I can't figure out which one of the 70 RAM-related settings Gigabyte messed up and so instead of running it 3600/15 like this RAM is perfectly capable of I'm sitting at 3400/15. Waste of money on b-die.


----------



## voidcrus

Timur Born said:


> Found some time for tinkering, so here we go for the first bug reports of my GB Aorus Master:
> 
> Vcore LLC settings are broken! This was tested with F7 beta, but I am quite sure that I first noticed the oddities using F5. F4 does not even allow to manually set Vcore or Vcore LLC, but for comparison I list its base values.


That's scary. I'm still using F4 on my Ultra and to be honest LLC there is flawless. I'm using Turbo mode, 4.9 @ 1.25v and there is literally zero Vdroop. Readings are consistent between BIOS, HWInfo and AIDA.

I'm really happy with my setup and if they screwed it up with F5 I'm just not going to upgrade at all.


----------



## Timur Born

I currently use F4 in main BIOS slot and F7 beta in backup BIOS. F4 does not allow me to set Vcore or LLC, the options are blocked (do not react when Enter is pressed), so I cannot compare directly.


----------



## eric98k

Asrock Z390 Phantom Gaming SLI/ac review:
https://www.hkepc.com/17414/2.5Gbps_電競_Ethernet__ASROCK_Z390_Phantom_Gaming_SLIac
Note: no front & back Vcore area pictures

PWM uP9521P
Mosfet NIKOS PZ0903BK + PK618BA
Dual driver uP1962S (for Vccgt?)
LR36 inductors
FP12K caps


----------



## AlphaC

so the up1962S is used and not the up1961s?


I find it odd that Asrock would choose to use the up1961s on the Pro4 and then use a up1962s on the Phantom SLI. Did Steve from Hardwareunboxed read the number wrong maybe?


The only thing I can think of is the up1961s isn't used as a doubler so they can substitute a up1962s.


edit: also hardware info seems to be doing temperature testing now albeit it appears the testing is with an i7-8700k (achterzijde= rear side)


https://us.hardware.info/category/1/motherboards/testresults?products[]=501535&specId=23669&tcId=439


----------



## eric98k

AlphaC said:


> so the up1962S is used and not the up1961s?
> 
> 
> I find it odd that Asrock would choose to use the up1961s on the Pro4 and then use a up1962s on the Phantom SLI. Did Steve from Hardwareunboxed read the number wrong maybe?
> 
> 
> The only thing I can think of is the up1961s isn't used as a doubler so they can substitute a up1962s.


This review lacks the important pictures of front & back vcore area. That uP1962s is seemingly driving Vccgt fets (given the PCB marking and 1H2L config). No evidence for or against uP1961s existence, not to say doubling mode or dual driver mode.

It does seem odd if uP1962s on Phantom SLI vcore considering the positioning of Pro4.



AlphaC said:


> also hardware info seems to be doing temperature testing now albeit it appears the testing is with an i7-8700k (achterzijde= rear side)
> 
> 
> https://us.hardware.info/category/1/motherboards/testresults?products[]=501535&specId=23669&tcId=439
> View attachment 232968


Noice! RIP Phantom SLI & Pro4


----------



## asdkj1740

the hkepc review claims up1962 is a doubler...


----------



## Alexandrus

voidcrus said:


> So what you saying is they rattle *without *the drive installed, I agree with that. But once the drive was there it fit pretty tight and I don't recall any movement. None of the M.2 slots rattle during operation either, I have silent build and would notice any sound.
> Yes shift+keyboard is what I used too, again didn't took me long and only had to do it once.
> 
> Like for me those issues are so minor I don't really care.
> 
> My biggest gripe with this motherboard so far is that it's Auto settings for b-die that I'm using (F4-3200C15D-32GTZSK) are inadequate and it doesn't boot. That forces me to overclock with XMP profile enabled because I can't figure out which one of the 70 RAM-related settings Gigabyte messed up and so instead of running it 3600/15 like this RAM is perfectly capable of I'm sitting at 3400/15. Waste of money on b-die.


Well, have you tried the M.2 heatsinks when the SSD is installed, because I tried both, they do not rattle, obviously, but still not enough pressure on the SSD, I can pull on the heatsink and push in ack to make contact with the SSD, it's a small give but it's a give. The only think keeping it in contact with the SSD is the thermal pad being sticky.
I am sure it works and it cools, but it's far from being perfect, or even decent. Which is too bad since the solution is so simple, really.

As for the other issues, you are not affected, it looks like, but they are still there, like the horrid GUI and silly options hidden or completely missing.


----------



## mouacyk

rocking 9900k 5ghz at 1.264v on evga z370 micro with avx power maxing at 190w. I'm only using the 8pin eps cable now. Should i also plug in the 4 pin supplemental?


----------



## Robbært

mouacyk said:


> rocking 9900k 5ghz at 1.264v on evga z370 micro with avx power maxing at 190w. I'm only using the 8pin eps cable now. Should i also plug in the 4 pin supplemental?


single ATX12V 8pin is up to 408W. also 150A is low numbers for 9900k 5.0GHz


----------



## voidcrus

mouacyk said:


> rocking 9900k 5ghz at 1.264v on evga z370 micro with avx power maxing at 190w. I'm only using the 8pin eps cable now. Should i also plug in the 4 pin supplemental?


That's weird because I hit 220w on 9700K @ 4.9 Ghz, 1.25v. You have more threads, higher clock and higher voltage, you should be pushing 250w. Check if your CPU is throttled.


----------



## Falkentyne

voidcrus said:


> That's weird because I hit 220w on 9700K @ 4.9 Ghz, 1.25v. You have more threads, higher clock and higher voltage, you should be pushing 250w. Check if your CPU is throttled.


Something's wrong with your results.

I set my 9900K to HT off, 4.9 ghz and 1.25v.

Prime95 small FFT with 8 cores, 8 threads with AVX enabled had a max power draw of 175W.
(CPUSupportsAVX=1 and CPUSupportsFMA3=0 in local.txt in the prime95 folder).

Were you using AVX or FMA3?


----------



## scracy

Robbært said:


> single ATX12V 8pin is up to 408W. also 150A is low numbers for 9900k 5.0GHz


Um are you sure? I thought single 8 pin eps cable was good for up to around 235-240W


----------



## Fornowagain

mouacyk said:


> rocking 9900k 5ghz at 1.264v on evga z370 micro with avx power maxing at 190w. I'm only using the 8pin eps cable now. Should i also plug in the 4 pin supplemental?


No that's more than enough capacity on one plug for 190w. Each pair is 75w, then de-rated a bit in the plug. 280w or so, @1.26v that's 220A, more than the chips 193A Iccmax

Though I doubt the power figure if it's not throttling. I've seen 270w with similar settings.


----------



## lb_felipe

Does it make sense Z390 Aorus Xtreme + Core i9-9900K using an air cooler? If so, which is the best CPU air cooler for thar scenario noise wise?


----------



## shalafi

AlphaC said:


> edit: also hardware info seems to be doing temperature testing now albeit it appears the testing is with an i7-8700k (achterzijde= rear side)
> 
> 
> https://us.hardware.info/category/1/motherboards/testresults?products[]=501535&specId=23669&tcId=439
> View attachment 232968


Aorus Pro 57°C and Aorus Pro WiFI 78°C?! That can't be right, can it?


----------



## xXxatrush1987

shalafi said:


> Aorus Pro 57°C and Aorus Pro WiFI 78°C?! That can't be right, can it?


yes there is something wrong, it´s your eyes^^.
78°C on the ITX(!) Aorus pro  and 57°C on the ATX(!) Aorus pro.

which seems ok, with a slow but steady airflow in my case the Aorus Ultra(same vrm as the ATX Pro) hovers around 45°[email protected](i7 8700k ~ 185watts)


----------



## shalafi

xXxatrush1987 said:


> yes there is something wrong, it´s your eyes^^.
> 78°C on the ITX(!) Aorus pro  and 57°C on the ATX(!) Aorus pro.
> 
> which seems ok, with a slow but steady airflow in my case the Aorus Ultra(same vrm as the ATX Pro) hovers around 45°[email protected](i7 8700k ~ 185watts)


Sorry, to me it looked like the pipe character |, never thought the ITX variant would be labeled like this. I stand corrected. 
My ATX Pro is ready for pickup, so I'll see how it goes when I build it later today.


----------



## mouacyk

voidcrus said:


> That's weird because I hit 220w on 9700K @ 4.9 Ghz, 1.25v. You have more threads, higher clock and higher voltage, you should be pushing 250w. Check if your CPU is throttled.





Falkentyne said:


> Something's wrong with your results.
> 
> I set my 9900K to HT off, 4.9 ghz and 1.25v.
> 
> Prime95 small FFT with 8 cores, 8 threads with AVX enabled had a max power draw of 175W.
> (CPUSupportsAVX=1 and CPUSupportsFMA3=0 in local.txt in the prime95 folder).
> 
> Were you using AVX or FMA3?


Is the voltage difference making that much of a difference in total power consumption? My 8700K at same clocks at 1.384v was reporting 219W on same board. Maybe I need to reset HWiNFO64, because it's reading wrong.


----------



## Falkentyne

mouacyk said:


> Is the voltage difference making that much of a difference in total power consumption? My 8700K at same clocks at 1.384v was reporting 219W on same board. Maybe I need to reset HWiNFO64, because it's reading wrong.


Looks fine to me.
You have 6 cores, 12 threads. 8 cores/8 threads is very similar power usage as 6 cores 12 threads. And 1.384v vs 1.25v. looks fine to me.


----------



## Robbært

mouacyk said:


> Is the voltage difference making that much of a difference in total power consumption? My 8700K at same clocks at 1.384v was reporting 219W on same board. Maybe I need to reset HWiNFO64, because it's reading wrong.


219W / 1.384V = 158A which is good (close to top) number for 8700K

When people get much less A (Ampere) readings for same cpu/system most obvious reason is their CPU throttle or they use very light tests or report in-game power consumption.
Your reading not wrong.
That other dude 175W @1.25V = 140A 9900K prime95 is in throttle city or still has power limit in BIOS (EVGA + MSI owner club).

Also there funny damage limitation MSI video link


> if you set this option to level 5, then 9900k power draw would drop to ~150w. the small level is msi cpu light low, the harder to the cpu to survive.
> becuase the silicon differential of 9900k is so high, only those very good 9900k can survive in level 5 at ~150w.


they save $5 in parts making board.
now telling us about level5 silicon quality
their story not go with overclock statistics "buy their $600 board to avoid level5"


----------



## Falkentyne

Robbært said:


> 219W / 1.384V = 158A which is good (close to top) number for 8700K
> 
> When people get much less A (Ampere) readings for same cpu/system most obvious reason is their CPU throttle or they use very light tests or report in-game power consumption.
> Your reading not wrong.
> That other dude 175W @1.25V = 140A 9900K prime95 is in throttle city or still has power limit in BIOS (EVGA + MSI owner club).
> 
> Also there funny damage limitation MSI video link
> 
> they save $5 in parts making board.
> now telling us about level5 silicon quality
> their story not go with overclock statistics "buy their $600 board to avoid level5"


"other dude"?
Are you talking about me?
Perhaps you should work on your reading comprehension skills.
I HAD HYPERTHREADING OFF. 
I don't throttle. Not with current limit=255 amps and power limits=300 watts.


----------



## voidcrus

Falkentyne said:


> Something's wrong with your results.
> 
> I set my 9900K to HT off, 4.9 ghz and 1.25v.
> 
> Prime95 small FFT with 8 cores, 8 threads with AVX enabled had a max power draw of 175W.
> (CPUSupportsAVX=1 and CPUSupportsFMA3=0 in local.txt in the prime95 folder).
> 
> Were you using AVX or FMA3?


That's AVX because OP stated he is using "avx power" for 9900K below 200w, so I was trying to use same scenario.
Non-AVX it is much lower of course, 175-176w same as yours.


----------



## Falkentyne

voidcrus said:


> That's AVX because OP stated he is using "avx power" for 9900K below 200w, so I was trying to use same scenario.
> Non-AVX it is much lower of course, 175-176w same as yours.


I am using AVX !! I said I set my i9 to 4900 mhz, disabled hyperthreading, and ran AVX small FFT.
power draw was 175W.


----------



## AlphaC

Anyway... full article at hwinfo is up



> To investigate which Intel Z390 motherboards are well suited to keep an overclocked Core i9 9900K stable under all conditions, we have conducted a VRM test on all tested models. For this we mount every motherboard in a Be quiet! Silent Base 700 housing with exactly the same cooling (an outtake mounted NZXT M22 water cooler and a Be quiet! Case fan in the front, both at fixed speeds).
> 
> 
> We always installed the installed Core i9 9900K processor from an overclock to 5.0 GHz on all cores. We chose a relatively safe voltage of 1.3 volts, so that the overclock is certainly stable. We perform two 20-minute runs in the Intel XTU stress test, and note the maximum temperature at both the front and rear of the VRM components, measured with a Flir heat camera, just before the end. Usually the second run is the warmest, but the difference between the two tests was never more than 3 degrees. You will always find the highest measured temperature in the graphs.
> 
> There are no fixed guidelines that state how hot a cpu power supply should be, although always a lower temperature is better for life. Many components have a rating up to 120 or 150 degrees Celsius, but that certainly does not mean that such temperatures do not affect their durability. In general we can say that temperatures below 60 degrees are excellent, while between 60 and 80 degrees is still fine. Above 80 degrees we can continue, but temperatures above 100 degrees we would prefer to avoid.
> 
> 
> The VRM test proves to produce enormous differences between the Z390 motherboards. Let's first look at the models that score best on this point. Those are the Gigabyte Z390 Aorus Xtreme and Aorus Master - that the manufacturer at these signs hits the drum over the high quality power supply, is evidently right. The top models of Asus and MSI also remain below 60 degrees, which is simply excellent.
> 
> Almost all other signs will be between 60 and 80 degrees at the end of our stress test, which is still more than sufficient. Two boards stand out negatively: the ASRock Z390 Pro4 and the Z390 Phantom Gaming SLI, which are almost 120 degrees Celsius at the rear. This makes it the only models that we would really recommend to use them in combination with an overclocked Intel Core i9 9900K, especially if you consider that our test system still had the necessary airflow.


https://nl.hardware.info/reviews/88...rd-is-echt-8-core-waardig-benchmarks-vrm-test


Edge performed fairly well, about 10°C better than the Pro Carbon. (Click the "achterzijde" tab for backside PCB result)


Taichi performed worse than expected vs other reviewer results , but so did the Z390-E STRIX.


The Edge AC needs some BIOS optimization though, as the UEFI startup time seems to be quite long vs even the Pro Carbon.


Worthy of note is the Phantom SLI board in the review is stated to be the Sinopower SM4336NSKP + SM4337NSKP and the Pro4 had NIKO-SEM PK618BA + PZ0903BK. This means both variants are not good. The ON Semiconductor NCP302045 was present on both ASUS Z390-E and Z390-A.


One peculiarity I saw was the Aorus Xtreme was listed with TDA21482 rather than TDA21462.


Hardware info awarded the following:
Best value = Gigabyte Z390 UD , Aorus ITX
Best midrange = ASUS Z390-A, Gigabyte Aorus Pro, MSI Pro Carbon
Best high end = Asrock Taichi Ultimate , Phantom Gaming 9 , Gigabyte Aorus Xtreme


edit: they omitted Asrock Phantom Gaming 6 , Extreme4 as well as MSI's cheaper Z390M edge and Tomahawk so we'll still need to wait on those boards' results from elsewhere


----------



## voidcrus

Falkentyne said:


> I am using AVX !! I said I set my i9 to 4900 mhz, disabled hyperthreading, and ran AVX small FFT.
> power draw was 175W.


Well, I'm sorry didn't catch that. Pull AIDA and HWInfo alongside and monitor your clocks/voltage and throttle flags. That power draw is too low, something limiting the system.

You can check reviews if you want, 200+ watts is pretty common figure for AVX 8-core loads on overclocked 9th gen.

I didn't change any settings in Prime95, just using 29.4 as is.

221W: https://imgur.com/a/UhLfhj1


----------



## Falkentyne

voidcrus said:


> Well, I'm sorry didn't catch that. Pull AIDA and HWInfo alongside and monitor your clocks/voltage and throttle flags. That power draw is too low, something limiting the system.
> 
> You can check reviews if you want, 200+ watts is pretty common figure for AVX 8-core loads on overclocked 9th gen.
> 
> I didn't change any settings in Prime95, just using 29.4 as is.
> 
> 221W: https://imgur.com/a/UhLfhj1


I already checked. Nothing is limiting the system. No throttling at all.
I'll set IA AC DC loadline back to auto and see if that changes the power draw later.
It could be the DC loadline setting that I set to 1. Because according to the intel document:

14. Load Line (AC/DC) should be measured by the VRTT tool and programmed accordingly via the BIOS Load Line override setup
options. AC/DC Load Line BIOS programming directly affects operating voltages (AC) and power measurements (DC). A
superior board design with a shallower AC Load Line can improve on power, performance, and thermals compared to boards
designed for POR impedance.


----------



## Falkentyne

voidcrus said:


> Well, I'm sorry didn't catch that. Pull AIDA and HWInfo alongside and monitor your clocks/voltage and throttle flags. That power draw is too low, something limiting the system.
> 
> You can check reviews if you want, 200+ watts is pretty common figure for AVX 8-core loads on overclocked 9th gen.
> 
> I didn't change any settings in Prime95, just using 29.4 as is.
> 
> 221W: https://imgur.com/a/UhLfhj1


Here's a screenshot of the intel pdf. I attached the entire PDF in a previous message somewhere here a few days ago.

*Edit*
Finished testing.
4900 mhz, HT off, voltage=1.250v, Loadline Calibration=Turbo.
The IA AC DC setting is influencing the reported power draw, even though the temps are identical.
It reported 195W of power draw before I took the picture on the "Auto" setting but when i took it it dropped to 183W. Yuck.
I'll try this again.

First picture:
IA AC DC loadline= IA AC DC loadline=1 (0.01 mOhms) (if its out of order, the "1" has the lower VID) Max power draw was 184W.

Second picture: IA AC DC loadline=auto (reference value 160 or 1.60 mOhms), equal to setting it to 160 in the bios. (has the higher VID if its out of order). Max power draw was 195W


----------



## Robbært

AlphaC said:


> Anyway... full article at hwinfo is up
> https://nl.hardware.info/reviews/88...rd-is-echt-8-core-waardig-benchmarks-vrm-test


Their test bench had cooler over VRM. and very hungry 9900K

MSI Z390 MPG Gaming Edge AC - 66C - 4*2 4C024+4C029
MSI Z390 MPG Gaming Pro Carbon - 75C - 5*2 4C024+4C029
Gigabyte Z390 UD - 75C - 5*2 4C06+4C10 (this one we know run with doubler)

4 paralleled or even twin MOSFETs perform this well or it easier to cool 8 transistors?
I think this test show us that while one VRM not gonna be much cooler other can drop 50C (or more?) with airflow.

Everything under 90 is very good.
I don't like these results.
16* TDA21462 perform like 12* SiC634

If motherboard need a cooler there should be cooler holder or something (along with motherboard package).
They aren't selling like that. They shouldn't be compared with extra parts attached.

PC cases not coming with solution to hold a cooler in position so it can blow directly over VRM. Why they do it in tests?


----------



## Fornowagain

Falkentyne said:


> Here's a screenshot of the intel pdf. I attached the entire PDF in a previous message somewhere here a few days ago.
> 
> *Edit*
> Finished testing.
> 4900 mhz, HT off, voltage=1.250v, Loadline Calibration=Turbo.
> The IA AC DC setting is influencing the reported power draw, even though the temps are identical.
> It reported 195W of power draw before I took the picture on the "Auto" setting but when i took it it dropped to 183W. Yuck.
> I'll try this again.
> 
> First picture:
> IA AC DC loadline= IA AC DC loadline=1 (0.01 mOhms) (if its out of order, the "1" has the lower VID) Max power draw was 184W.
> 
> Second picture: IA AC DC loadline=auto (reference value 160 or 1.60 mOhms), equal to setting it to 160 in the bios. (has the higher VID if its out of order). Max power draw was 195W


Confused, that's what you would expect isn't it? With dynamic or adaptive voltage whatever its called, increasing the loadline will increase the VID the IA cores request. An increase will bias the AC/DC Q point on the power curve to be more permissive, so the cores think it's safer to run in those conditions than it might otherwise do. So it pulls more current and the power goes up.


----------



## AlphaC

Robbært said:


> Their test bench had cooler over VRM. and very hungry 9900K
> 
> MSI Z390 MPG Gaming Edge AC - 66C - 4*2 4C024+4C029
> MSI Z390 MPG Gaming Pro Carbon - 75C - 5*2 4C024+4C029
> Gigabyte Z390 UD - 75C - 5*2 4C06+4C10 (this one we know run with doubler)
> 
> 4 paralleled or even twin MOSFETs perform this well or it easier to cool 8 transistors?
> I think this test show us that while one VRM not gonna be much cooler other can drop 50C (or more?) with airflow.
> 
> Everything under 90 is very good.
> I don't like these results.
> 16* TDA21462 perform like 12* SiC634
> 
> If motherboard need a cooler there should be cooler holder or something (along with motherboard package).
> They aren't selling like that. They shouldn't be compared with extra parts attached.
> 
> PC cases not coming with solution to hold a cooler in position so it can blow directly over VRM. Why they do it in tests?





ATX sized Edge is the same VRM as Pro Carbon. The difference is temperature is instead of having a plastic shroud and small VRM heatsink, the Edge has a larger uncovered VRM heatsink.


----------



## ivoryg37

I finally got my 9900K today. However, I'm still lacking a motherboard. I'm looking to spend about $350 on a motherboard. Would the Gigabyte Z390 Designare or the Asus code or the hero be the better purchase? I generally go for asus due to their bios and fan control. This time around I heard asus doesn't have as good of a VRM?


----------



## Falkentyne

Fornowagain said:


> Confused, that's what you would expect isn't it? With dynamic or adaptive voltage whatever its called, increasing the loadline will increase the VID the IA cores request. An increase will bias the AC/DC Q point on the power curve to be more permissive, so the cores think it's safer to run in those conditions than it might otherwise do. So it pulls more current and the power goes up.


I'm using *STATIC* voltages, not dynamic.
So no, I don't expect this.

Take a look at these two charts.
I attached the datasheet for this platform also if you want to waste a few hours of your life getting dizzy 

Basically, there are two kinds of vdroop compensation
The first is from the IA AC DC loadline reference value.
This is designed to be used with "automatic" voltages, aka a "set and forget" system
In this case, the CPU VID, which is pre-programmed in 100mhz steps from 800 mhz up to the highest turbo multiplier from the factory, with each chip having a unique VID based on binning, is then influenced by the resistance value.
The higher the resistance value, the more the VID will rise, and the more current there is, the more resistance there will be, thus the higher the VID will rise.
The IA AC loadline setting is the operating power supply. The VID will be raised by the amount of resistance set in the IA AC value (reference values: 1.60 mOhms=Z390, 2.10 mOhms=Z370, 1.80 mOhms=Kaby Lake, whatever chipset that is). This is done to help counter mainboard/VRM vdroop, by boosting the VID signal at heavy loads, as the CPU Vcore is based on this VID signal.

The IA DC value is for power measurements. I'm not exactly sure how it works, but it seems to change the "reported" VID that is set by IA AC loadline, as well as the power consumption. I believe the SVID / VID is where the CPU gets part of its power consumption values from, but that's beyond me.


the second kind of vdroop compensation is Loadline Calibration or LLC.
This is done on the motherboard level, and is designed for static voltages (manual). When static voltages are used, the CPU Vcore ignores the VID (which is set by IA AC / DC loadline) and overrides it. Since this is now being overridden, you need to use the mainboard based Loadline Calibration to counter vdroop.

I do not know for sure, or think that Loadline Calibration is designed to be used at the same time as the IA AC/DC settings on adaptive voltages. MSI laptops incorrectly will boost the "Static" CPU override voltage, based on the IA AC DC auto setting, AND MSI laptops also have a built in loadline calibration preset that no one has access to. (I own one). With the reference kaby Lake 1.80 mOhms setting, setting 1.25v override voltage on a MSIbook will wind up giving you 1.35-1.4v (!!) at full load, causing a lot of overheating. That's why so many people have to use adaptive voltage and undervolt. There is no vcore sensor in these laptops, so the CPU voltage is derived from the VID, even on static override voltages. (Yuck). The only way to stop this is to set IA AC DC loadline to "1", which keeps the VID very close to the static override voltage with only about a 5mv variance (unless AVX instructions are used).

Anyway, for some reason, on these desktop mainboards, while the static voltage overrides the VID, the power consumption is being affected by the DC loadline setting (maybe the AC loadline too), so its unclear which is more accurate.


----------



## Timur Born

Curious observation on my GB Aorus Master running everything stock (Optimal BIOS defaults):

Using EasyTune LLC "Standard" (no corresponding setting in BIOS available) uses less power compared to what TomsHardware measured and it is *not* P95 29.4B8 Small FFTs stable (reproducible errors within 2 minutes).

Using EasyTune LLC "Low" (corresponds to BIOS "Auto/Standard/Normal") uses more power compared to what TomsHardware measured and it is P95 29.4B8 Small FFTs stable (at least for the last 15 minutes I let it run in the background now).


----------



## AlphaC

ivoryg37 said:


> I finally got my 9900K today. However, I'm still lacking a motherboard. I'm looking to spend about $350 on a motherboard. Would the Gigabyte Z390 Designare or the Asus code or the hero be the better purchase? I generally go for asus due to their bios and fan control. This time around I heard asus doesn't have as good of a VRM?


 I would buy the Designare because it has Thunderbolt 3 and the power delivery has been shown to be better than the Code/Hero. There's no good reason to get the Code over the Hero unless you need additional IO stuff on the back. 



I would only buy the Hero if you plan on using the Auto AI overclocking feature's Silicon Quality Prediction, which per Silicon Lottery is still not accurate enough.


----------



## OhForPetesSake

*Z390 extreme4 for 9700k?*

After digging through this thread, I'm not sure how much I should be second guessing my decision to purchase an ASRock z390 extreme4. It was on sale for $139.99, and given the quality of its predecessor, I pulled the trigger. Now, after reading this thread, I'm worried it won't be adequate for overclocking with a 9700k (which I also purchased). My hope was to be able to overclock the processor up to 5 ghz. Should I return the extreme4 and replace it with an Aorus pro for 50 dollars more? For further reference, I'm using a Kraken x62 for CPU cooling in a Lian Li pc-o11 dynamic with the 2 radiator fans and six additional case fans.

Any guidance here would be appreciated.


----------



## encrypted11

If you'd use the C6 HT SKU's power draw as a yardstick against a non HT 8C SKU, the extreme4's VRMs should be more than adequate for a daily overclock. With the added benefit of ASRock's high frequency memory support despite being kneecapped with a 4 layer PCB you'd typically see on sub $150 boards.

No idea how the current BIOSes are working, I don't have it on my ITX board just yet.

Also worth mentioning, aorus pro's a 4 layer PCB board just like the extreme4. But I'd doubt that the memory support's better than the Extreme4's.

I don't see an outright winner in the mid range segment.
Better vCore VRM or memory capability. Pick your poison.


----------



## AlphaC

The main issue I see with the Extreme4 is zero debug features. If it is anything like the Z370 version it also lacks BCLK adjustment, not that people usually use it on Intel CPUs. There's a debug LED for all boards that plugs into TPM being sold on caseking now with development work by elmor. Since it has a Dual BIOs but no status LEDs or Debug code LED it's something worth considering.

https://www.caseking.de/en/der8auer-port80-debug-anzeige-fsd8-025.html


The featureset is alright for the price it is now ($130 after $10 MIR on Newegg). At $170 it is foolish to buy it IMO.



The VRM itself is decent , at least on par with the Edge AC and Pro Carbon as well as the Z390 UD / Gaming SLI type boards from Gigabyte. The lack of a heatpipe compared to the Phantom Gaming 6 is another omission, but even boards such as the Edge AC and STRIX z390-E , Z390-A as well as Aorus Elite don't have a heatpipe either.


----------



## postem

Robbært said:


> 219W / 1.384V = 158A which is good (close to top) number for 8700K
> 
> When people get much less A (Ampere) readings for same cpu/system most obvious reason is their CPU throttle or they use very light tests or report in-game power consumption.
> Your reading not wrong.
> That other dude 175W @1.25V = 140A 9900K prime95 is in throttle city or still has power limit in BIOS (EVGA + MSI owner club).
> 
> Also there funny damage limitation MSI video link
> 
> they save $5 in parts making board.
> now telling us about level5 silicon quality
> their story not go with overclock statistics "buy their $600 board to avoid level5"


Dunno, i have 8700K @ 5ghz 1.34v. When prime small FFT i tops at around 180W. 
Hero X board.
When on real bench it goes around 150W. 

Last time i checked all my power limits are topped at max values, and monitoring i dont have any throttling, even stressing. This might be related to my silicon quality or the fact its dellided?

Just another question: its worth a shoot to try running a 9900K in Hero X? Im considering to top around 4900-5000Mhz.
From what im seeing, when you hit north of 200W, due to bad solder TIM, it will basically uncoolable unless you have some really strong custom loop, its right or im wrong? 
So it would in fact, in a realistic scenario with 360/280 AIO, without delid, be able to thermally handle around 200W or 150A ~ 1,35v, which is a fairly average assumption over silicion quality.


----------



## Robbært

postem said:


> Dunno, i have 8700K @ 5ghz 1.34v. When prime small FFT i tops at around 180W.
> Hero X board.
> When on real bench it goes around 150W.
> 
> Last time i checked all my power limits are topped at max values, and monitoring i dont have any throttling, even stressing. This might be related to my silicon quality or the fact its dellided?
> 
> Just another question: its worth a shoot to try running a 9900K in Hero X? Im considering to top around 4900-5000Mhz.
> From what im seeing, when you hit north of 200W, due to bad solder TIM, it will basically uncoolable unless you have some really strong custom loop, its right or im wrong?
> So it would in fact, in a realistic scenario with 360/280 AIO, without delid, be able to thermally handle around 200W or 150A ~ 1,35v, which is a fairly average assumption over silicion quality.


as your 8700k do 180W. motherboard can report at same time: 183A @1.363V and 235W while 183*1.363=250W. I think PWM controller report numbers as it see (as it programmed for current) working MODE to work with other connected parts/phases. It also can be PWM controller show us what CPU consume while extra is what needed to keep current/voltage output stable under load. There little to none publicly avail PWM controller documentation.
delidding help to run it cooler. and 1.34v is nice number for 8700k. while running at 5.0 it not mean you pull everything your cpu can.
8700k top numbers is 160A, 225W
9900k top numbers 196A, 265W
looking at Maximus X Hero VRM on paper running 9900k is no.
looking at premium status and price of X Hero it should run it (at least with VRM cooler).
9900k should be air coolable with gaming load all way till 5.3GHz but you have to test it with some stress load too. 5.1GHz would be end of air cooling. only 14% of 9900k hit 5.1GHz at 1.312v as siliconlottery stats go.
you can set (in bios) 100C CPU package and it will throttle in tests, while never reach it in games. it safe to set max temp 110C for 9x00K.
some programs do heavy cpu load. ffmpeg is one of them.
I personally don't like idea of $400 custom water for $500 recommend customer price CPU.
5.0GHz you can do on air. especially when it will be hot only in stress tests for next year or two.


----------



## Timur Born

Some more measurements on Aorus Master (ET = EasyTune software):

- Internal LLC Auto + ET LLC Low (BIOS Auto/Standard/Normal) is stable. This is the current default behavior.

- Internal LLC Auto + ET LLC Standard is at least P95 Small FFTs unstable. This should be the "fixed" behavior, but causes stability issues.

- Internal LLC Power-Saving + ET LLC Low is unstable even for normal desktop operation.

- Internal LLC Performance + ET LLC Standard is stable, but Performance not only is more aggressive than Auto, but even the combination with ET Standard is still more aggressive than Auto + ET Low.


----------



## eric98k

Buildzoid: The Best Z390 Motherboards for VRMs, 10Gb LAN, Mini-ITX, Micro-ATX (2018)





BTW he forgot to mention GBT Z390 Designare which has the same VRM as Ultra/Pro and unique features like Thunderbolt 3, CPU PCIe distribution x8/x4/x4 for NVMe RAID, dual LAN, etc. Also EVGA FTW & Dark are by no means "meh" in VRM, just not yet a reviewer is paid/care to review them.


----------



## Telstar

I bet he forgot the Gene too, because not available in North America.


----------



## postem

Robbært said:


> as your 8700k do 180W. motherboard can report at same time: 183A @1.363V and 235W while 183*1.363=250W. I think PWM controller report numbers as it see (as it programmed for current) working MODE to work with other connected parts/phases. It also can be PWM controller show us what CPU consume while extra is what needed to keep current/voltage output stable under load. There little to none publicly avail PWM controller documentation.
> delidding help to run it cooler. and 1.34v is nice number for 8700k. while running at 5.0 it not mean you pull everything your cpu can.
> 8700k top numbers is 160A, 225W
> 9900k top numbers 196A, 265W
> looking at Maximus X Hero VRM on paper running 9900k is no.
> looking at premium status and price of X Hero it should run it (at least with VRM cooler).
> 9900k should be air coolable with gaming load all way till 5.3GHz but you have to test it with some stress load too. 5.1GHz would be end of air cooling. only 14% of 9900k hit 5.1GHz at 1.312v as siliconlottery stats go.
> you can set (in bios) 100C CPU package and it will throttle in tests, while never reach it in games. it safe to set max temp 110C for 9x00K.
> some programs do heavy cpu load. ffmpeg is one of them.
> I personally don't like idea of $400 custom water for $500 recommend customer price CPU.
> 5.0GHz you can do on air. especially when it will be hot only in stress tests for next year or two.


I tried running higher frequency, it goes up Amps. The throttling flags are all false on hw info.
I measured Amps on Asus EC on hwinfo, but its really hard to know how much real wattage its drawing without a proper anmeter. 
Anyway, i dont really care much more for over 5.0ghz, the heat and voltage starts to rump up.
Even with 9900K, it dont matter much for me beyond 4.9-5ghz frequency, im going to use 280mm AIO. The only benefit i see from 9900K is the extra 2 cores i can use in certain apps and developing. There is much less return in gaming, especially considering im sitting on summer here around 30C and my 8700K is running at 
65-70c max.


----------



## lexlazootin

my results with Asus X Hero with a True Spirit 140 Power.

Green is after a delid, all wattage numbers were from the mobo sensor and not what the CPU reports.

I thought you guys might find this intresting.


----------



## AlphaC

https://www.profesionalreview.com/2018/11/23/gigabyte-z390-designare-review/
Designare ~70°C with Prime95 after 12 hours , cooler is H100i v2


https://ru.gecid.com/mboard/asus_tuf_z390-pro_gaming/?s=1
TUF Pro with i7-9700k on NH-U14S (4c10+4c06n variant) peak temp 68°C


> chipset cooling radiator - 35.8 ° C (during acceleration - 35.9 ° C);
> upper radiator for cooling the elements of the processor power subsystem - 48 ° C (during acceleration - 52.9 ° C);
> side heatsink for cooling the elements of the processor power subsystem - 50.6 ° C (during overclocking - 54.4 ° C);
> throttles (chokes) - 58.2 ° C (during acceleration - 68.4 ° C).



https://www.bjorn3d.com/2018/11/msi-mpg-z390-gaming-edge-ac-motherboard-review/4/
MSI Edge AC ATX : Confirmation on up9521p with Onsemi 4c029 + 4c024n


----------



## B3MMi

I would be happy if anyone has the answers for my questions. 

I'm going for 9700K with a custom loop. I will be running the fans on low RPM and the VRM might not get that much airflow. Also I'm aiming for the max overclock I can get out of the chip. I'll will be benching it hard so I'd love to get the last 0.1GHz out of it. 

Prices are:
Maximus XI Gene = 390€
Maximus XI Hero (WiFI) = 380€
Z390 Taichi = 295€
Z390 Aorus Ultra = 290€

First: I need to control my fan speed based on water temp sensor. I know Asus boards allow that BUT does Gigabyte and Asrock boards?

Gene would be perfect for me except 2 flaws. The minor is that it might look silly in an ATX case. But I might use a vertical GPU mount which would hide it anyways. The big problem is that there's ONLY 1 controllable fan header that's not a CPU fan header. At least on IX Hero I can't use the CPU fan headers if I want to control my fans with water temp. How am I going to connect 9 fans to 1 header? I would control them in 3x clusters of 3 fans. So I would need at least 3 controllable fan headers that I can control using water temperature.

Hero would also be good but if the weaker VRM means that I'll be losing that 0.1GHz on CPU and like 300MHz on memory, I won't be happy. 

Taichi would be good if I just can control my fans based on W temp. Well, the BIOS sucks and I might get frustrated using it after a Asus board. Also it has weaker VRM than the Gene.

Aorus Ultra has the same problems as Taichi.

Edit: Also the fact that I got the 9700K for 300€ makes me really sad I gotta pay at least the same amount for a decent board. :/


----------



## Alexandrus

B3MMi said:


> I would be happy if anyone has the answers for my questions.
> 
> I'm going for 9700K with a custom loop. I will be running the fans on low RPM and the VRM might not get that much airflow. Also I'm aiming for the max overclock I can get out of the chip. I'll will be benching it hard so I'd love to get the last 0.1GHz out of it.
> 
> Prices are:
> Maximus XI Gene = 390€
> Maximus XI Hero (WiFI) = 380€
> Z390 Taichi = 295€
> Z390 Aorus Ultra = 290€
> 
> First: I need to control my fan speed based on water temp sensor. I know Asus boards allow that BUT does Gigabyte and Asrock boards?
> 
> Gene would be perfect for me except 2 flaws. The minor is that it might look silly in an ATX case. But I might use a vertical GPU mount which would hide it anyways. The big problem is that there's ONLY 1 controllable fan header that's not a CPU fan header. At least on IX Hero I can't use the CPU fan headers if I want to control my fans with water temp. How am I going to connect 9 fans to 1 header? I would control them in 3x clusters of 3 fans. So I would need at least 3 controllable fan headers that I can control using water temperature.
> 
> Hero would also be good but if the weaker VRM means that I'll be losing that 0.1GHz on CPU and like 300MHz on memory, I won't be happy.
> 
> Taichi would be good if I just can control my fans based on W temp. Well, the BIOS sucks and I might get frustrated using it after a Asus board. Also it has weaker VRM than the Gene.
> 
> Aorus Ultra has the same problems as Taichi.
> 
> Edit: Also the fact that I got the 9700K for 300€ makes me really sad I gotta pay at least the same amount for a decent board. :/


You are wrong, the ASRock BIOS is quite decent, just looks a bit old school due to text mode.

Not sure if you can control the fans based on water temp, really, but if the boards have external temp sensors, then yes, you most likely can.

As for the VRM, the Gigabyte Ultra is the strongest of the bunch, clear advantage, then Gene, but it's mATX, then Taichi. Although, I do not think any of them will lack in the OC department, even the Hero.


----------



## Fornowagain

B3MMi said:


> The big problem is that there's ONLY 1 controllable fan header that's not a CPU fan header. At least on IX Hero I can't use the CPU fan headers if I want to control my fans with water temp. How am I going to connect 9 fans to 1 header? I would control them in 3x clusters of 3 fans. So I would need at least 3 controllable fan headers that I can control using water temperature.
> 
> Hero would also be good but if the weaker VRM means that I'll be losing that 0.1GHz on CPU and like 300MHz on memory, I won't be happy.
> :/


It can be done, I've tried this on Hero XI which works. Sata powered, 10 way PWM fan splitter connected to CPU header. 10K G1/4 sensor in the loop connected to T_Sensor. All fans will respond to PWM signal, take their power from the PSU and report speed based on the one designated primary fan. T_Sensor1 selected as reference. I prefer to reference CPU temps personally. And just a FYI, I tried the Gigabyte Aorus Master and found the Hero XI was able to clock slightly higher, but took a bit more voltage. The Hero Xi VRM's do run a bit hotter, but they're fine. Btw also had some fan/pump issues on the Master.


----------



## B3MMi

Fornowagain said:


> It can be done, I've tried this on Hero XI which works. Sata powered, 10 way PWM fan splitter connected to CPU header. 10K G1/4 sensor in the loop connected to T_Sensor. All fans will respond to PWM signal, take their power from the PSU and report speed based on the one designated primary fan. T_Sensor1 selected as reference. I prefer to reference CPU temps personally. And just a FYI, I tried the Gigabyte Aorus Master and found the Hero XI was able to clock slightly higher, but took a bit more voltage. The Hero Xi VRM's do run a bit hotter, but they're fine. Btw also had some fan/pump issues on the Master.


Currently I have Z270 Maximus IX Hero. I've connected 10K G1/4 sensor to T_Sensor header. For some unknown reason there's no option for selecting temperature source on CPU_Fan header. It's locked to CPU temps. That means I have to use CHA_Fan header for all my fans that I want to control using T_Sensor. Which means currently 6 fans and soon 9 fans. MXI Gene only has 1 controllable CHA_Fan header and other 3 are full speed only. I would need 3 PWM headers that I can use to control my fans + 1 to control my pump. There's no problem if I can also use the CPU_Fan headers and still control my fans using T_Sensor/Water IN/Water OUT as their source for temps.

Could you confirm that they've changed the CPU_Fan headers to allow using T_Sensor as their temp source? 

Edit: I think you can't really compare software voltage readings of different motherboards from different manufacturers. How high did you clock your CPU with the boards?


----------



## B3MMi

Alexandrus said:


> You are wrong, the ASRock BIOS is quite decent, just looks a bit old school due to text mode.
> 
> Not sure if you can control the fans based on water temp, really, but if the boards have external temp sensors, then yes, you most likely can.
> 
> As for the VRM, the Gigabyte Ultra is the strongest of the bunch, clear advantage, then Gene, but it's mATX, then Taichi. Although, I do not think any of them will lack in the OC department, even the Hero.


I've heard Asrock lacks some options in BIOS that for example Asus has.

I'd rather not gamble getting a board that might not support controlling fans using water temp as source. Would be awesome if someone knew the answer 

According to Buildzoid the Gigabyte Z390 Aorus Master's VRM will produce 19.5W of heat at 150A. The Gene would produce 17.5W of heat at 150A.

I know the Master uses completely different VRM than Ultra but it seems that Master has the cooler VRM anyways. And yeah 2 extra phases will probably waste more energy at low current draw but it seems Gene wins even at very high loads.


----------



## Alexandrus

Since they use the same VRM controller and pretty much everything else is the same, but the Master is 6 doubled phases, while the Gene is 5 doubled phases, I fail to see how the lower count one would be better. OK, maybe the IR3555 is more efficient or better in some way than the IR3553 (Gigabyte uses the IR3553 power stages), but still, I would think the Master is better, VRM wise.
As for the BIOS, well, I actually found ASRock has a few options that ASUS does not, on the Z270 platform at least. Perhaps ASUS has other options that ASRock does not, but then again, they should pretty obscure and useless, I would imagine.
The only BIOS which I found to be awful is the Gigabyte one, not only missing options, but some are so well hidden they might as well be missing. Plus options that do several things at the same time, and you have no control to tweak it properly, like MCE for instance, sets a LOT of things, some of which I really want OFF but they are ON or OFF based on MCE option, whereas in the ASUS BIOS they can be set individually.


----------



## B3MMi

Alexandrus said:


> Since they use the same VRM controller and pretty much everything else is the same, but the Master is 6 doubled phases, while the Gene is 5 doubled phases, I fail to see how the lower count one would be better. OK, maybe the IR3555 is more efficient or better in some way than the IR3553 (Gigabyte uses the IR3553 power stages), but still, I would think the Master is better, VRM wise.
> As for the BIOS, well, I actually found ASRock has a few options that ASUS does not, on the Z270 platform at least. Perhaps ASUS has other options that ASRock does not, but then again, they should pretty obscure and useless, I would imagine.
> The only BIOS which I found to be awful is the Gigabyte one, not only missing options, but some are so well hidden they might as well be missing. Plus options that do several things at the same time, and you have no control to tweak it properly, like MCE for instance, sets a LOT of things, some of which I really want OFF but they are ON or OFF based on MCE option, whereas in the ASUS BIOS they can be set individually.


Thanks for the info. I won't be buying Gigabyte then. The Asus BIOS is easier to use than Asrock. The fact that I'm used to Asus BIOS makes it even more appealing to me.

The Gene uses stronger 60A power stages than Aorus Ultra (50A) or Master (40A). Btw VRM on Gene doesn't use doublers. It's a 5 phase with 2 powers tages and chokes per phase. Doublers on a VRM has some advantages but also disadvantages.


----------



## Falkentyne

Alexandrus said:


> Since they use the same VRM controller and pretty much everything else is the same, but the Master is 6 doubled phases, while the Gene is 5 doubled phases, I fail to see how the lower count one would be better. OK, maybe the IR3555 is more efficient or better in some way than the IR3553 (Gigabyte uses the IR3553 power stages), but still, I would think the Master is better, VRM wise.
> As for the BIOS, well, I actually found ASRock has a few options that ASUS does not, on the Z270 platform at least. Perhaps ASUS has other options that ASRock does not, but then again, they should pretty obscure and useless, I would imagine.
> The only BIOS which I found to be awful is the Gigabyte one, not only missing options, but some are so well hidden they might as well be missing. Plus options that do several things at the same time, and you have no control to tweak it properly, like MCE for instance, sets a LOT of things, some of which I really want OFF but they are ON or OFF based on MCE option, whereas in the ASUS BIOS they can be set individually.


What things does MCE set on?


----------



## Fornowagain

B3MMi said:


> Could you confirm that they've changed the CPU_Fan headers to allow using T_Sensor as their temp source?


Just looking on the Hero Xi, T_Sensor is a control option on the x3-chassis, high power, AIO, WPUMP and x3-ext_fan header. The CPU and CPU_OPT share control and are excluded. Water IN/Water OUT are not available as control option.


----------



## B3MMi

Fornowagain said:


> Just looking on the Hero Xi, T_Sensor is a control option on the x3-chassis, high power, AIO, WPUMP and x3-ext_fan header. The CPU and CPU_OPT share control and are excluded. Water IN/Water OUT are not available as control option.


Thank you. That's exactly what I was worried about. It's the same as M9H. No idea how am I going to add 9 fans to a MXI Gene and still control them.


----------



## brentsg

I already own the Z370 Maximus Hero X and the 9900K. 

Currently I just have it set to ~stock config, so it boosts to all core 4700 for a period of time, but then settles down to a 95W config.

I'm using it for both work and play, so stability is key.. but I'd like to push 4700 indefinitely if possible. Is it safe with this motherboard, or do I need to grab a Z390?

Edit: To be clear, just looking to push 4700 for encoding and such, but settle back down with C-states as possible.


----------



## Fornowagain

B3MMi said:


> Thank you. That's exactly what I was worried about. It's the same as M9H. No idea how am I going to add 9 fans to a MXI Gene and still control them.


Only possible if they're all controlled as one.

You want three separate control profiles?


----------



## Falkentyne

brentsg said:


> I already own the Z370 Maximus Hero X and the 9900K.
> 
> Currently I just have it set to ~stock config, so it boosts to all core 4700 for a period of time, but then settles down to a 95W config.
> 
> I'm using it for both work and play, so stability is key.. but I'd like to push 4700 indefinitely if possible. Is it safe with this motherboard, or do I need to grab a Z390?
> 
> Edit: To be clear, just looking to push 4700 for encoding and such, but settle back down with C-states as possible.


The 9900k is guaranteed stable at 4.7 ghz with adaptive voltage, without offsets, with loadline calibration disabled or set to normal in the bios.
It would only crash if somehow the IA AC DC loadline reference values (NOT the same as LLC!!) are not working right.

Should be no problems unless your bios is buggy.


----------



## B3MMi

Fornowagain said:


> Only possible if they're all controlled as one.
> 
> You want three separate control profiles?


Yeah that would be great. Maybe I could do with two separate control profiles but that would already be on the edge.


----------



## brentsg

Falkentyne said:


> The 9900k is guaranteed stable at 4.7 ghz with adaptive voltage, without offsets, with loadline calibration disabled or set to normal in the bios.
> It would only crash if somehow the IA AC DC loadline reference values (NOT the same as LLC!!) are not working right.
> 
> Should be no problems unless your bios is buggy.


By reference values, do you mean default (Auto?)?

I seem to recall with my 8700K that I had the IA AC DC loadline values set to .01 or the board would push too much voltage to my CPU. I dropped back to board defaults when I installed the 9900K, so they are at default now.

I'll admit that I've lost some overclocking chops over the past several years, since my play machine has become a work machine. I'm sorta trying to straddle the line now.


----------



## Falkentyne

brentsg said:


> By reference values, do you mean default (Auto?)?
> 
> I seem to recall with my 8700K that I had the IA AC DC loadline values set to .01 or the board would push too much voltage to my CPU. I dropped back to board defaults when I installed the 9900K, so they are at default now.
> 
> I'll admit that I've lost some overclocking chops over the past several years, since my play machine has become a work machine. I'm sorta trying to straddle the line now.


When I say reference value, I mean all settings at default except all cores set to x47.
In this case, the IA AC DC loadline setting will "boost" the default VID of your CPU, based on the current/power draw/heat, and the cpu vcore should take that setting from the VID and use that. (you can check in HWinfo64). Loadline Calibration (LLC) must be disabled when doing this, or set to normal or auto (if normal is not an option).

I know about the overvolting problem.
On some motherboards, the IA AC DC loadline setting was boosting the CPU VCORE override when using static voltages. Static voltages are supposed to ignore the VID setting completely, but on some boards it is or was still linked, causing the vcore to show as much higher, to match the CPU VID.

I thought all those VID / vcore / IA AC DC bugs had long been fixed.

On MSI laptops (Most of them), the problem is even worse.
There is no vcore sensor, so the CPU VID is directly derived from the vcore, and the actual CPU Voltage sent when using static (manual) voltages is boosted by the IA AC loadline setting.

So if you set 1250mv as your core voltage, and the IA AC DC loadline setting were at its default (either 1.80 mOhms or 2.10 mOhms), and you put a load on the processor, the CPU VID would rise to 1.35v to 1.4v(!) and that would be your voltage. The IA DC loadline setting would then "droop" this VID down to around 1.26v and show that as the resulting VID, but you would actually be putting 1.35v+ into the chip, not 1.26, because MSI also uses a hardwired mainboard based Loadline Calibration in addition to this, and the IA AC/IA DC setting has no knowledge of this.

I found this out by setting IA AC and IA DC loadline to 1 and then seeing that my VID then is within 6mv-30mv of my manual voltage

So setting IA AC DC loadline to 1 stops the VID from being boosted up and "fixes" the problem.

But this should not be set to 1 for adaptive voltages unless you have a very buggy motherboard.
Also, with adaptive voltages, default IA AC DC loadline should never be used with mainboard LLC as they basically stack on each other and will cause extreme overshoot.


----------



## B3MMi

Is it possible to control fans using water temperature on Asrock Z390 Taichi? I guess it's 100€ cheaper than Asus options and I can't forget about that.


----------



## umutcan15

Hello guys, just bought 9900k.
Should I go for Z390 Asus Maximus XI Hero, Z390 Gigabyte Aorus Master or Aorus Ultra? Asus is more expensive. I'm currently using a 2nd gen Gigabyte X series extreme board with i7 2600k and its usb ports had problems over time.
Also its bios was a lackluster. This time, for my new system, I actually want to try a Asus mobo since people generally recommend/use Asus. Seems like Asus has less VRMs, can it be a problem for 9900k at 5ghz?
On paper, Gigabyte Aorus Master seems to be clearly better than Asus Maximus Hero XI.


----------



## AlphaC

Interesting news from Tom's Hardware if true:


https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/mag-z390-tomahawk-core-i9-9900k-msi-atx-motherboard said:


> Testing with MSI’s monitoring software allowed us to find the sweet-spot, where the voltage regulator would hover around 100 °C at full load at the CPU’s rated 4.70 GHz when running Prime95 small-FFTs. But that’s when we found out that the voltage regulator _heat sink_ temperature was around 40° lower than its _MOSFET_ (transistor) temperature. Ouch.
> ...
> 
> Thus, we get efficiency scores that mean absolutely nothing. The board can’t power our CPU to full load without cranking down its core voltage, but doing so isn’t fair to any of the other products.


Basically Tomahawk can't do 4.7GHz Prime95 on i9-9900k and the thermal transfer to the heatsink is poor (40°C delta between heatsink and the mosfets).
--------------
Gigabyte sponsored article how-to:
https://www.tweaktown.com/guides/8812/gigabyte-z390-9th-gen-oc-guide-vrm-thermal-test/index6.html
------------
http://koolshare.cn/thread-150796-1-1.html
another Taichi confirmation of TI NexFET , SM7341 used for io/SA section
------------


umutcan15 said:


> Hello guys, just bought 9900k.
> Should I go for Z390 Asus Maximus XI Hero, Z390 Gigabyte Aorus Master or Aorus Ultra? Asus is more expensive. I'm currently using a 2nd gen Gigabyte X series extreme board with i7 2600k and its usb ports had problems over time.
> Also its bios was a lackluster. This time, for my new system, I actually want to try a Asus mobo since people generally recommend/use Asus. Seems like Asus has less VRMs, can it be a problem for 9900k at 5ghz?
> On paper, Gigabyte Aorus Master seems to be clearly better than Asus Maximus Hero XI.


I would buy the Aorus Master , Ultra, Designare , or Pro over the Hero if you're looking for non LN2 featureset.

ASUS is more user friendly but the hardware this generation isn't as strong , even against their own older offerings when you normalize for monoblocks or without heatsink. That said, on air/water it should be more than fine if you buy anything better than Z390-A from ASUS' lineup, such as Z390-E STRIX or Maximus XI Hero. The main appeal of the ASUS boards above the Z390-A in the product stack is the Auto AI OC feature.


see z390-E , ONsemi variant: https://quasarzone.co.kr/bbs/board.php?bo_table=qc_qsz&wr_id=199696







It's basically hotter than Aorus Elite in the same test (though acceptable at 77°C), with 100MHz less despite 1.28V. Adding a 40mm fan drops it to 58°C.


ROG Hero: https://quasarzone.co.kr/bbs/board.php?bo_table=qc_qsz&wr_id=189564&page=4
5GHz @ 1.27V = 85°C , Blender 5GHZ @ 1.27V = 75°C


(5GHz Aorus Elite @ 1.27V = 75°C , Blender is just under 70°C)


--------------


Overclockers ru teardown of Phantom Gaming 6 has SM7341 :
https://overclockers.ru/lab/show/94...rinskoj-platy-asrock-z390-phantom-gaming-6#10


----------



## zervun

GBT-MatthewH said:


> Should have more next week @ newegg.


Any light at the end of the tunnel? They have it on backorder now. Paid attention all last week.


----------



## Alexandrus

Falkentyne said:


> What things does MCE set on?


Boot up performance mode, for one, or boot frequency, whatever you want to call it, which on ASUS can be set individually and separately from MCE. On Gigabyte, MCE on Auto and disabled sets Boot up performance to 4GHz, on Enabled it sets it to 5GHz, so the CPU will be all cores at 5GHz in BIOS and all the way in the boot sequence. Quite silly if you ask me.
On top of it all, it sets a ridiculous voltage for it, in my case, with a 8086K, VCore set to Auto, when MCE was Enabled the VCore was 1.465V.


----------



## Alexandrus

B3MMi said:


> Thanks for the info. I won't be buying Gigabyte then. The Asus BIOS is easier to use than Asrock. The fact that I'm used to Asus BIOS makes it even more appealing to me.
> 
> The Gene uses stronger 60A power stages than Aorus Ultra (50A) or Master (40A). Btw VRM on Gene doesn't use doublers. It's a 5 phase with 2 powers tages and chokes per phase. Doublers on a VRM has some advantages but also disadvantages.


Yeah, if easy to use BIOS is a must, then for sure Gigabyte is dead last 
ASRock to me is as easy or easier than ASUS, but ASUS is just prettier and sometimes a bit easier organized, just barely.

I figured, with the ASUS marketing, that at least the Gene and Extreme use doublers, looks like I was wrong.
Yes, doublers, especially the IR dumb ones, have some disadvantages, but then again, without them, there also some disadvantages.
The max amperage of the power stages is pretty much irrelevant, you will probably not reach their top rating anyway. It's more important that they are smarter and more efficient, in my opinion.


----------



## Alexandrus

AlphaC said:


> Interesting news from Tom's Hardware if true:
> 
> 
> 
> Basically Tomahawk can't do 4.7GHz Prime95 on i9-9900k and the thermal transfer to the heatsink is poor (40°C delta between heatsink and the mosfets).
> 
> --------------
> 
> Gigabyte sponsored article how-to:
> https://www.tweaktown.com/guides/8812/gigabyte-z390-9th-gen-oc-guide-vrm-thermal-test/index6.html
> 
> ------------
> 
> http://koolshare.cn/thread-150796-1-1.html
> another Taichi confirmation of TI NexFET , SM7341 used for io/SA section
> 
> 
> ------------
> 
> I would buy the Aorus Master , Ultra, Designare , or Pro over the Hero if you're looking for non LN2 featureset.
> 
> 
> ASUS is more user friendly but the hardware this generation isn't as strong , even against their own older offerings when you normalize for monoblocks or without heatsink. That said, on air/water it should be more than fine if you buy anything better than Z390-A from ASUS' lineup, such as Z390-E STRIX or Maximus XI Hero. The main appeal of the ASUS boards above the Z390-A in the product stack is the Auto AI OC feature.


Z390-A also has the AI OC features.

As for the Gigabyte, well, I cannot speak for the Master or Ultra, but the PRO, except for the VRM, is not all that, really.
I am tempted to order the Z390 AORUS Master, but my experience with the Gigabyte BIOS, it will probably be also quite bad, for me I mean.


----------



## Alexandrus

B3MMi said:


> Is it possible to control fans using water temperature on Asrock Z390 Taichi? I guess it's 100€ cheaper than Asus options and I can't forget about that.


Here : https://youtu.be/d8rY4TrcDXg?t=853
It looks that for the Gigabyte, it should work.
There should be such a video for the ASRock BIOS too, no matter if it's a different board, they all have the same options, pretty much.


----------



## B3MMi

Alexandrus said:


> Here : https://youtu.be/d8rY4TrcDXg?t=853
> It looks that for the Gigabyte, it should work.
> There should be such a video for the ASRock BIOS too, no matter if it's a different board, they all have the same options, pretty much.


Thanks for the info. Probably won't be buying Gigabyte anyways.
Couldn't find a video showing the fan control options on Asrock board sadly. I can't buy a board if I'm not sure it works.


----------



## Solarity

AlphaC said:


> Z87 through Z270 nobody really cared since it's all 4 cores. We had threads for that and until Z170 or so Steven from Tweaktown still had sinshardware up online so he had a chart already (hence no motivation to do it). I still have a local copy of it but I'm not going to post his content since I don't own it when he can re-upload it on tweaktown or somewhere. Actually br0da started making the lists around this time for Z170/Z270. Asrock was using NexFETs on their mid level boards such as Extreme 6 back in Z87.
> 
> Only made one for Z370 because it was copy paste jobs from quadcore VRM on ASUS + Gigabyte at the mid level , with MSI close to being as bad (all of them except Asrock midrange K6 + Extreme 4). Basically it was a nudge for manufacturers to get their act together .
> 
> For AM4 it's pretty straightforward as below X470 top tier (except MSI M7) you basically have a bunch of 4 phase two high+low side mosfet per PWM channel setups except for ASUS x470 Pro (6x 40A IR3553) and STRIX X470-F (6x 60A IR3555). There's a few outliers but generally other than the B450 Pro Carbon there's not much at the B450 level worth buying and the B450 Pro Carbon is basically roughly equal to a mid level X470 from Asrock/Gigabyte/MSI , albeit it has its own issues with PBO.
> https://www.hardwareluxx.de/community/f12/pga-am4-mainboard-vrm-liste-1155146.html
> 
> X99: https://www.overclock.net/forum/6-intel-motherboards/1518458-x99-vrm-discussion-thread.html
> Haven't seen CrazyElf around a lot anymore. Kind of had it filled in to a point.
> 
> For X299 I think the only one that uses a garbage setup is the MSI low midrange such as X299 SLI PLUS & Tomahawk, they're using Low RDS(on) Powerpaks on both sides of the board when everyone else is using Powerstages. Elmor tested that and when every other board was putting out 250W on the first round of X299 they could only handle ~ 175W. I made a thread on that but other than the first real showing of ISL99227B smart powerstages from Asrock and later Gigabyte (delayed a lot), not much is notable other than the heatsink surface area.
> https://www.hardwareluxx.de/community/f12/lga-2066-mainboard-vrm-liste-1167715.html
> 
> X399 everyone is using more or less the same powerstages so br0da's list is_ very easy_ to use and get a picture of the X399 board landscape. Gigabyte has since put out boards with IR3575 thermally enhanced powerstages but they had a weaker 50A IR3556 powerstage compared to every other vendors' IR3555 (which has the same footprint so I don't understand that choice TBH).
> https://www.hardwareluxx.de/community/f12/lga-tr4-mainboard-vrm-liste-1171058.html
> 
> The problem with highlighting VRM limit concerns on a gaming oriented channel like Hardware Unboxed is pretty evident. It's why unless the VRM is absolutely atrocious you won't see me posting about it in threads not asking about the VRM. Youtube & other social media viewers are less concerned about the technical limitations and reliability / thermal aspect of it and more on the branding and kneejerk reactions " (vendor) boards are garbage". It's an indictment of the _one sentence_ twitter culture. That's one of the reasons why I avoid using the brand name and use the model name , i.e. K6 , Taichi , or ROG Hero.
> 
> Is there a socket you are interested in particular?
> 
> 
> Designare has been stated to have the same VRM design as the Ultra + Pro (12x SiC634 via ISL6617 doublers), with a direct touch heatpipe similar to the Ultra / Master. So it's above the Pro WIFI but you're paying a bit extra for Thunderbolt and dual LAN. It lacks a debug code LED from the Ultra but retains debug status lights.
> 
> It is good enough for most people (including content creators and people that actually intend to use FFTs for non-stress testing purposes) and arguably better than the ROG Hero. I don't like the VRM heatsink design on the Designare but the featureset (PS/2 port , WIFI , Thunderbolt 3 , and Dual LAN) make it a rather compelling option given the $270 MSRP.
> 
> 
> Happens in every industry. Go where the money is (customer wants) not where you want unless you want to go out of business. If everyone is selling black umbrellas and you are selling white ones unless you're a boutique shop that people go to for white umbrellas you're out of business. The only thing that will change this is if people stop buying overpriced RGB gaming branded garbage that costs at most $10 to make light up.
> 
> WS2812B addressable RGB LED: https://octopart.com/search?q=WS2812B&start=0
> 
> The other underlying problem is the desktop market especially _non-gaming _DIY isn't very strong relative to the mobile market (cell phones, laptops, tablets). Outside of OCUK ,Boxx, Maingear, Origin PC, Caseking , Xi Computer, Falcon NW, ScanUK, a handful of Alienware, & CyberpowerPC there's not many places that offer overclocked desktops in the Western hemisphere.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You don't need a special motherboard to run a Nvidia Quadro. Maybe it is certified to work in the board, but that's about it. Similar to how you can run a Geforce or Radeon non-Pro card in a variety of applications but you can't expect any bugs or performance issues to be ironed out (especially bad on Geforce).


I left out that you should post it in your signature.


----------



## GBT-MatthewH

zervun said:


> Any light at the end of the tunnel? They have it on backorder now. Paid attention all last week.


_Should_ be today (Newegg should receive the shipment today atleast). Backorders will be filled first, then whatever is left will go up for sale.


----------



## zervun

GBT-MatthewH said:


> _Should_ be today (Newegg should receive the shipment today atleast). Backorders will be filled first, then whatever is left will go up for sale.


Cool beans thanks - I have mine on backorder.


Not sure you can answer this question - I have looked through the manual a little. It appears that the M.2s and the 4x PCIE slot run through the chipset not directly with the CPU. What is the total shared PCI bus between those?

I'm trying to figure out my hard drive layout. I currently have a PCIE 900p which I'm planning on using on the PCIE 4x slot that is shared on the chipset. How many m.2 drives can I run at maximum speed before it uses all the bus?

I'd like ideally to use at least the optane in the 4x slot and a 970 Pro in one of the m.2 slot. Is it possible to have 2x M.2's and the optane run at full speeds?


----------



## Solarity

How are peoples experiences with OC'ing the 9900K on the Z370?

I saw the 30% Samsung Pay cash back offer for Best Buy coupled with the used market of the 8600K and I decided to upgrade my CPU to a 9900K. Just got it yesterday and would like to play with it on my Z370 Gaming 7. I know the VRM Heat sink is less than ideal as they decided to cover it with a LEDs, though it has a very good VRM. It am running a custom loop with dual 360mm rads. I will see how it takes the heat. If I am worried about the VRM, then I might have to look into modding it. I think I can remove the LED cover as it looks like they are stuck on it with adhesive. If that doesn't work I might try DIY VRM water block. I picked up one of these locally for $20: http://www.frozencpu.com/products/2...pper_Nickel_11435.html?id=j3CfrotE&mv_pc=3686

With these blocks you can remove the bottom and replace it with a custom made plate. I might use the chipset block for a Nano-PC T4 and mount the SBC to a PCIe bracket.


----------



## GBT-MatthewH

zervun said:


> Cool beans thanks - I have mine on backorder.
> 
> 
> Not sure you can answer this question - I have looked through the manual a little. It appears that the M.2s and the 4x PCIE slot run through the chipset not directly with the CPU. What is the total shared PCI bus between those?
> 
> I'm trying to figure out my hard drive layout. I currently have a PCIE 900p which I'm planning on using on the PCIE 4x slot that is shared on the chipset. How many m.2 drives can I run at maximum speed before it uses all the bus?
> 
> I'd like ideally to use at least the optane in the 4x slot and a 970 Pro in one of the m.2 slot. Is it possible to have 2x M.2's and the optane run at full speeds?


This should help


----------



## Falkentyne

GBT-MatthewH said:


> This should help


Matthew, what is x0 ?


----------



## zervun

GBT-MatthewH said:


> This should help


That helps a lot. From that I get that I can do 2x m.2 (one on one m2_110, and one the other m2_110) and 1x optane (on the last PCIE slot m2_80) at full speed, with my Titan V at 16x direct to the CPU, is that correct?

What is the total bus from the chipset to the CPU?


----------



## GBT-MatthewH

Falkentyne said:


> Matthew, what is x0 ?


Means its not using any lanes... IE if you use the top PCIe lane and the 2nd PCIe slot is empty the top is at 16x and the middle is running 0x



zervun said:


> That helps a lot. From that I get that I can do 2x m.2 (one on one m2_110, and one the other m2_110) and 1x optane (on the last PCIE slot m2_80) at full speed, with my Titan V at 16x direct to the CPU, is that correct??


The GPU is easy, dont put anything in the middle PCIe slot and the top slot runs at full 16x from CPU. 

For M.2 the 80mm switches with the bottom PCIe slot. If that bottom PCIe slot is empty you will get full x4 out of the M.2

For the other (2) M.2 if you dont use sata 4/5 they will also both run at full x4.

So long story short with (1) GPU in top slot and not using SATA 4/5 you will get 16x for GPU and x4 for all (3) M.2



zervun said:


> What is the total bus from the chipset to the CPU?


24 from chipset

For those interested here are all the PCIe diagrams for our Z390 boards: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1L7YKBNnMJKg1GRj7xOibt7_WQa7Geibh


----------



## Falkentyne

GBT-MatthewH said:


> Means its not using any lanes... IE if you use the top PCIe lane and the 2nd PCIe slot is empty the top is at 16x and the middle is running 0x
> 
> 
> 
> The GPU is easy, dont put anything in the middle PCIe slot and the top slot runs at full 16x from CPU.
> 
> For M.2 the 80mm switches with the bottom PCIe slot. If that bottom PCIe slot is empty you will get full x4 out of the M.2
> 
> For the other (2) M.2 if you dont use sata 4/5 they will also both run at full x4.
> 
> So long story short with (1) GPU in top slot and not using SATA 4/5 you will get 16x for GPU and x4 for all (3) M.2
> 
> 
> 24 from chipset
> 
> For those interested here are all the PCIe diagrams for our Z390 boards: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1L7YKBNnMJKg1GRj7xOibt7_WQa7Geibh


Thank you for your help and clarification!
I'm using 7 drives (3 SATA HDD, one SATA bluray/ODD, 1 SATA SSD, one M.2 SATA SSD and NVME SSD). The NVME SSD is in the bottom slot right above a sound blaster x-fi that's a x1 card. The NVME is running at x4.
I have the m.2 SATA in m.2 slot #2 in the middle.

Going to assume if I someday put a NVME in slot #2 it will also run x4.


----------



## zervun

GBT-MatthewH said:


> Means its not using any lanes... IE if you use the top PCIe lane and the 2nd PCIe slot is empty the top is at 16x and the middle is running 0x
> 
> 
> 
> The GPU is easy, dont put anything in the middle PCIe slot and the top slot runs at full 16x from CPU.
> 
> For M.2 the 80mm switches with the bottom PCIe slot. If that bottom PCIe slot is empty you will get full x4 out of the M.2
> 
> For the other (2) M.2 if you dont use sata 4/5 they will also both run at full x4.
> 
> So long story short with (1) GPU in top slot and not using SATA 4/5 you will get 16x for GPU and x4 for all (3) M.2
> 
> 
> 24 from chipset
> 
> For those interested here are all the PCIe diagrams for our Z390 boards: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1L7YKBNnMJKg1GRj7xOibt7_WQa7Geibh


Thanks for the info! This really puts me at ease, this board is really flexible storage wise.


----------



## asdkj1740

AlphaC said:


> Interesting news from Tom's Hardware if true:
> 
> 
> Basically Tomahawk can't do 4.7GHz Prime95 on i9-9900k and the thermal transfer to the heatsink is poor (40°C delta between heatsink and the mosfets).
> --------------


i have been doubting msi has got the same vrm heatsink's insufficient mouting preesure issue on its new extended heatsinks. i have checked the thermal pads' imprints on b450 msi, and they are not impressive at all. need some dude who have the same mobo to try replace the stock thermal pad to test it out. 
40c delta is insane, i think active cooling wont help much in this case.


----------



## asdkj1740

Alexandrus said:


> Yeah, if easy to use BIOS is a must, then for sure Gigabyte is dead last
> ASRock to me is as easy or easier than ASUS, but ASUS is just prettier and sometimes a bit easier organized, just barely.
> 
> I figured, with the ASUS marketing, that at least the Gene and Extreme use doublers, looks like I was wrong.
> Yes, doublers, especially the IR dumb ones, have some disadvantages, but then again, without them, there also some disadvantages.
> The max amperage of the power stages is pretty much irrelevant, you will probably not reach their top rating anyway. It's more important that they are smarter and more efficient, in my opinion.


asus marketing is a joke on z390. if they really think their parallel/twin design is good enough to beat its competitors then asus should have promoted this point on their site in advance, rather than posting some proofs of advantages of its twin design having faster response and less over/under shoot after having serious complaints all over the world.
one thing i appreciate about elmor posted proofs of less over/under shoot pics is that asus really manage to suppress the ripple on its latest twin design compared to m10h doubling version. the ripples seem to be more or less the same on m11h now which is unexpected.


----------



## asdkj1740

GBT-MatthewH said:


> This should help


this is the best presentation i have ever seen.
manufactures tends to hide this informative diagram, please include this on every new gigabyte mobo guide.

show us the designare one pls.


----------



## Solarity

@GBT-MatthewH Have you guys done much testing with the Z370 and 9900K? I am planning on installing the new chip tonight on my Gaming 7.


Also a question about the VRM heat sink on the Z370 Gaming 7 motherboard. Is this a fairly standard heat sink w/ heat pipe with some LEDs and a metal cover stuck to it? I am thinking of removing it to allow for better VRM thermals to help offset the extra wattage generated by the 9900k. Are there any picture of what it looks like w/o the LEDs and diffuser on it? I just don't want it to look like it was butchered.


----------



## Stockman

An update on my Z390 VRM coil whine issues. Would love to hear any thoughts from the community on this. Running with a 9700k.

1) Asus Maximus Hero XI - returned because of coil whine
2) Gigabyte Z390 Aorus Master - returned because of coil whine
3) Gigabyte Z390 Aorus Ultra - still own - coil whine is present, but less noticeable than what the Master and Hero produced

I have another Aorus Master board on the way to see if I'm just incredibly unlucky.

The crazy thing is that the whine is/was impressively consistent across all three boards. Zero noise under partial or full load. LOTS of noise when at idle. In addition, all three boards exhibit a screeching sound from CPU VRM when dragging Chrome windows across the screen. This is helped, but not eliminated, by reducing mouse polling rate from 1000Hz to 125Hz. 

In my quest to solve this I've swapped out every piece of hardware, tried numerous combinations of BIOS/Windows Power settings, and ran the 9700k at stock and OC at different voltages.

The ONLY standard setting that makes a difference is C-States. Disabling all c-states lowered the idle coil whine on the Hero and Master, but it was still loud enough to give me a headache. On the Ultra, disabling c-states lowers the whine to the point it's almost tolerable. Having all c-states disabled except for C1E makes no difference. Every one (including C1E) must be disabled to see improvement. (Side note #1: I've noticed that even after disabling all C states on the Gigabyte boards, including C1E, Windows perfmon still shows the CPU entering C1 when at idle. I don't know why - using High Performance power setting.)

As for non-standard settings, disabling processor idle state in windows power options completely removes the whine. To get this setting to show up you have to edit the registry. After disabling idle state, the CPU will consume somewhere between 50-70w at idle - not ideal. (Side note #2: when processor idle state is disabled, pefmon no longer shows CPU enter C1 when at idle)

So when I'm gaming, or doing any other process that puts load on the CPU, no problem. When I'm browsing the web or sending email, however, it's really hard to concentrate. 

Is there a design difference in the VRM for Z390 boards that is causing this? Maybe I'm just unlucky? I haven't seen any reviewers report this issue, but there are other cases of end-users experiencing VRM whine on their Z390 boards reported on this site and others.


----------



## B3MMi

I already feel like an idiot because I'm going to spend 380€ on a Maximus XI Hero. 4-phase VRM for almost 400€! It seems I have no other choice. At least I can control my fans using water temperatures. Will it struggle with 9700K @5.2-5.4GHz? I'm not gonna run AVX loads for 24/7, it's gonna be for gaming and ofc benchmarking.


----------



## clucernoni

B3MMi said:


> I already feel like an idiot because I'm going to spend 380€ on a Maximus XI Hero. 4-phase VRM for almost 400€! It seems I have no other choice. At least I can control my fans using water temperatures. Will it struggle with 9700K @5.2-5.4GHz? I'm not gonna run AVX loads for 24/7, it's gonna be for gaming and ofc benchmarking.



Why do you have no other choice?


----------



## Falkentyne

B3MMi said:


> I already feel like an idiot because I'm going to spend 380€ on a Maximus XI Hero. 4-phase VRM for almost 400€! It seems I have no other choice. At least I can control my fans using water temperatures. Will it struggle with 9700K @5.2-5.4GHz? I'm not gonna run AVX loads for 24/7, it's gonna be for gaming and ofc benchmarking.


Do you have a 9700K in your possession?

If you're aiming for 5.2-5.4 ghz, you are actually better off buying a 9900K and disabling hyper-threading, which will get you there a lot easier as they are higher binned. The struggle depends on your cpu's silicon lottery (not the website) and default VID settings; the lower the default VID (default VID is preset from 800 mhz up to the highest official Intel 8 core turbo boost multiplier of x46, x47 on 9900K), usually the higher the CPU will be able to overclock, using less voltage. 69% of silicon lottery's 9700K's can reach 5 ghz with an AVX offset of 2, but they require up to 1.350v to get there.

The reason 69% of 9900K's don't reach 5 ghz with a test setting of 1.350v (if you could use this, they would) is because the heat output gets out of control. If you could keep the temps down, more than 69% of 9900K's would reach 5 ghz at 1.350v. But keeping temps reasonable is a problem, that's why their cutoff is 1.30v with AVX offset of 2, which 46% of 9900K's can reach. That's to keep temps reasonable under decent cooling solution.


----------



## Solarity

Stockman said:


> An update on my Z390 VRM coil whine issues. Would love to hear any thoughts from the community on this. Running with a 9700k.
> 
> 1) Asus Maximus Hero XI - returned because of coil whine
> 2) Gigabyte Z390 Aorus Master - returned because of coil whine
> 3) Gigabyte Z390 Aorus Ultra - still own - coil whine is present, but less noticeable than what the Master and Hero produced
> 
> I have another Aorus Master board on the way to see if I'm just incredibly unlucky.
> 
> The crazy thing is that the whine is/was impressively consistent across all three boards. Zero noise under partial or full load. LOTS of noise when at idle. In addition, all three boards exhibit a screeching sound from CPU VRM when dragging Chrome windows across the screen. This is helped, but not eliminated, by reducing mouse polling rate from 1000Hz to 125Hz.
> 
> In my quest to solve this I've swapped out every piece of hardware, tried numerous combinations of BIOS/Windows Power settings, and ran the 9700k at stock and OC at different voltages.
> 
> The ONLY standard setting that makes a difference is C-States. Disabling all c-states lowered the idle coil whine on the Hero and Master, but it was still loud enough to give me a headache. On the Ultra, disabling c-states lowers the whine to the point it's almost tolerable. Having all c-states disabled except for C1E makes no difference. Every one (including C1E) must be disabled to see improvement. (Side note #1: I've noticed that even after disabling all C states on the Gigabyte boards, including C1E, Windows perfmon still shows the CPU entering C1 when at idle. I don't know why - using High Performance power setting.)
> 
> As for non-standard settings, disabling processor idle state in windows power options completely removes the whine. To get this setting to show up you have to edit the registry. After disabling idle state, the CPU will consume somewhere between 50-70w at idle - not ideal. (Side note #2: when processor idle state is disabled, pefmon no longer shows CPU enter C1 when at idle)
> 
> So when I'm gaming, or doing any other process that puts load on the CPU, no problem. When I'm browsing the web or sending email, however, it's really hard to concentrate.
> 
> Is there a design difference in the VRM for Z390 boards that is causing this? Maybe I'm just unlucky? I haven't seen any reviewers report this issue, but there are other cases of end-users experiencing VRM whine on their Z390 boards reported on this site and others.


You must have very sensitive hearing. I only notice coil wine on my MSI GPU, when loading Farcry 5. You could always run prime95, till you run a game 



B3MMi said:


> I already feel like an idiot because I'm going to spend 380€ on a Maximus XI Hero. 4-phase VRM for almost 400€! It seems I have no other choice. At least I can control my fans using water temperatures. Will it struggle with 9700K @5.2-5.4GHz? I'm not gonna run AVX loads for 24/7, it's gonna be for gaming and ofc benchmarking.


I think a lot of other boards can control fans using water temps, my Z370 Gaming 7 can do that, granted I use iCUE w/ a Lighting Node Pro to control my fans based off coolant temp as I am a closed beta tester for Corsair. If I wasn't I would use my MB again, I have two headers for temp sensors that I can use on my Gaming 7. I do use the 3A header on my MB to power my D5 pump, I have been less of a fan of Asus over the past couple of years. The boards they sell are a tier less than the boards the compete in price for. People seem to love that ROG name and are willing to pay for the name and less for VRM. A lot of people love Asus's UEFI. A UEFI can always be improved, though you can't upgrade a VRM. Marketing, the reason why my VRM heatsink is stupid. 

Call me crazy though I think the X470 Gaming 7 VRM heat sink looks awesome!


----------



## B3MMi

Falkentyne said:


> Do you have a 9700K in your possession?
> 
> If you're aiming for 5.2-5.4 ghz, you are actually better off buying a 9900K and disabling hyper-threading, which will get you there a lot easier as they are higher binned. The struggle depends on your cpu's silicon lottery (not the website) and default VID settings; the lower the default VID (default VID is preset from 800 mhz up to the highest official Intel 8 core turbo boost multiplier of x46, x47 on 9900K), usually the higher the CPU will be able to overclock, using less voltage. 69% of silicon lottery's 9700K's can reach 5 ghz with an AVX offset of 2, but they require up to 1.350v to get there.
> 
> The reason 69% of 9900K's don't reach 5 ghz with a test setting of 1.350v (if you could use this, they would) is because the heat output gets out of control. If you could keep the temps down, more than 69% of 9900K's would reach 5 ghz at 1.350v. But keeping temps reasonable is a problem, that's why their cutoff is 1.30v with AVX offset of 2, which 46% of 9900K's can reach. That's to keep temps reasonable under decent cooling solution.


Yeah, I already have the 9700K. I know it's down to silicon lottery but let's say I got a good chip. Would the M11H then be a bottleneck? What kind of temperatures should I expect the VRM to hit in gaming AND also synthetic AVX loads? My 7700K did 5.2GHz on M9H. I'd love to match that with the 9700K.  I got 2x HW Labs GTS 360 rads so cooling shouldn't be the problem. Maybe Intel's crappy soldering will.


----------



## galu

Hi, I'd appreciate some help.

I have a 9700k and a Scythe Ninja 5 cooler.
I need a micro ATX board now.

I've narrowed it down to these two:
Gigabyte Z390 M GAMING - 140€
MSI MPG Z390M GAMING EDGE AC - 175€

I like the MSI's extra features (wifi, BT, bigger heatsink), but the Gigabyte has some extra phases. Price difference aside, which is the better board? How much difference would those extra VRM phases actually do to a max OC (100, 200, 500, ... Mhz)?

Thanks for your help!


----------



## B3MMi

clucernoni said:


> Why do you have no other choice?


I explained it a couple of times before. Basically Gigabyte BIOS is bad, Asrock is decent but not good. And I have no idea if I can plug my water temp sensor in their motherboards and use it to control my fans. That's the short version of it.


Solarity said:


> You must have very sensitive hearing. I only notice coil wine on my MSI GPU, when loading Farcry 5. You could always run prime95, till you run a game
> 
> 
> 
> I think a lot of other boards can control fans using water temps, my Z370 Gaming 7 can do that, granted I use iCUE w/ a Lighting Node Pro to control my fans based off coolant temp as I am a closed beta tester for Corsair. If I wasn't I would use my MB again, I have two headers for temp sensors that I can use on my Gaming 7. I do use the 3A header on my MB to power my D5 pump, I have been less of a fan of Asus over the past couple of years. The boards they sell are a tier less than the boards the compete in price for. People seem to love that ROG name and are willing to pay for the name and less for VRM. A lot of people love Asus's UEFI. A UEFI can always be improved, though you can't upgrade a VRM. Marketing, the reason why my VRM heatsink is stupid.
> 
> Call me crazy though I think the X470 Gaming 7 VRM heat sink looks awesome!


I actually want to control my fans from my BIOS, not Windows. I love the simplicity of using BIOS for that. I hate Corsair Link and their other software. I'm not going to download yet again another buggy software that I need to run all the time. So BIOS is the only option I think.

Also I don't care for their ROG name anymore since first they used it with bad Strix boards and then made the Maximus series mid range with high end price. Also I don't care for LED's and other stuff like that. I'd actually like manufacturers to use more X470 Gaming 7 like VRM heat sinks that are actually useful. And not cover them in plastic ffs. The only good thing about Asus it their BIOS nowadays.


----------



## Alex11223

B3MMi said:


> I already feel like an idiot because I'm going to spend 380€ on a Maximus XI Hero.


looks like prices are much higher in your country.
It's 295 in my country.


----------



## Falkentyne

B3MMi said:


> Yeah, I already have the 9700K. I know it's down to silicon lottery but let's say I got a good chip. Would the M11H then be a bottleneck? What kind of temperatures should I expect the VRM to hit in gaming AND also synthetic AVX loads? My 7700K did 5.2GHz on M9H. I'd love to match that with the 9700K.  I got 2x HW Labs GTS 360 rads so cooling shouldn't be the problem. Maybe Intel's crappy soldering will.


Check the reviews on gamersnexus and that other youtube site, buildzoid I think for VRM temperatures. No one here is going to be able to tell you exactly what your temps will be, but the Maximus will not be holding you back.


----------



## Solarity

B3MMi said:


> I explained it a couple of times before. Basically Gigabyte BIOS is bad, Asrock is decent but not good. And I have no idea if I can plug my water temp sensor in their motherboards and use it to control my fans. That's the short version of it.
> 
> 
> I actually want to control my fans from my BIOS, not Windows. I love the simplicity of using BIOS for that. I hate Corsair Link and their other software. I'm not going to download yet again another buggy software that I need to run all the time. So BIOS is the only option I think.
> 
> Also I don't care for their ROG name anymore since first they used it with bad Strix boards and then made the Maximus series mid range with high end price. Also I don't care for LED's and other stuff like that. I'd actually like manufacturers to use more X470 Gaming 7 like VRM heat sinks that are actually useful. And not cover them in plastic ffs. The only good thing about Asus it their BIOS nowadays.


Good news, Link is gone and it was replaced with iCUE. 

I to prefer controlling my fans via the UEFI (bios), as running an app to do it creates additional overhead. I am guessing you haven't used a Gigabyte in a while. You can create fan curves control fans and map them to different temp sensors.

https://techreport.com/r.x/2017_09_...Gaming_8_motherboard_reviewed/smartfanefi.png

I am not going to say Gigabyte has the most intuitive UEFI, I cursed it a few times trying to setup a NVME RAID 0 and I have setup HW raid a lot at work. Gigabyte's UEFI might not be the best intuitive, though it can do everything the others do and you can learn to use it. With the Maximus though you are stuck with an inferior VRM at a higher price.


----------



## B3MMi

Falkentyne said:


> Check the reviews on gamersnexus and that other youtube site, buildzoid I think for VRM temperatures. No one here is going to be able to tell you exactly what your temps will be, but the Maximus will not be holding you back.


I watch Gamers Nexus and Buildzoid but they haven't done VRM temp tests between Z390 boards. Thank you for the information. 

Edit: deleted the unnecessary quote.


----------



## B3MMi

Solarity said:


> Good news, Link is gone and it was replaced with iCUE.
> 
> I to prefer controlling my fans via the UEFI (bios), as running an app to do it creates additional overhead. I am guessing you haven't used a Gigabyte in a while. You can create fan curves control fans and map them to different temp sensors.
> 
> https://techreport.com/r.x/2017_09_...Gaming_8_motherboard_reviewed/smartfanefi.png
> 
> I am not going to say Gigabyte has the most intuitive UEFI, I cursed it a few times trying to setup a NVME RAID 0 and I have setup HW raid a lot at work. Gigabyte's UEFI might not be the best intuitive, though it can do everything the others do and you can learn to use it. With the Maximus though you are stuck with an inferior VRM at a higher price.


Okay, thank you for all the information. So it supports controlling fans using my water temp sensor? 

How does Gigabyte at memory overclocking? I watched Buildzoid's PCB analysis of Z390 Aorus Master and he said that the board is optimized for 4 dimms. That means 2 memory dimms aren't going to OC that well. I got some Samsung B-Die that I'll be running at 1.6V to get as far as I can. I'll be setting the most useful timings manually. 

I'll probably get the Ultra and not Master but they quite similar. (I know the VRM is completely different) 

Thanks for taking the time to answer a difficult "customer" like me and sorry for bothering you all so much. I just don't want to regret my choice later so I'll do a lot of researching and ask a lot of questions.


----------



## B3MMi

Should I actually burn the extra 40€ on the Master? Ultra 289€ vs Master 329€.


----------



## Solarity

B3MMi said:


> Okay, thank you for all the information. So it supports controlling fans using my water temp sensor?
> 
> How does Gigabyte at memory overclocking? I watched Buildzoid's PCB analysis of Z390 Aorus Master and he said that the board is optimized for 4 dimms. That means 2 memory dimms aren't going to OC that well. I got some Samsung B-Die that I'll be running at 1.6V to get as far as I can. I'll be setting the most useful timings manually.
> 
> I'll probably get the Ultra and not Master but they quite similar. (I know the VRM is completely different)
> 
> Thanks for taking the time to answer a difficult "customer" like me and sorry for bothering you all so much. I just don't want to regret my choice later so I'll do a lot of researching and ask a lot of questions.


Check out some videos on SmartFan 5 (tool inside of UEFI) to see everything it does. I only use it for setting my D5 pump on the 3A for constant 12v. The settings are there, granted I haven't touched them as I am a BETA tester. The CoPro can't support the amperage that the D5 can draw, hence that is the reason I am using it. The Gaming 7 I bought came with two 10k temp sensors, which is pretty standard. Setting up the RAID was a lot harder than OC'ing on the Gaming 7. I think they put NVME stuff under a SATA sub-menu ><.

I am not a RAM expert, though from my limited knowledge you tend not to see much improvement over 3200Mhz. Also the XMP profiles are based off the voltage that is specified on the DIMM. I think you can get better timings and higher speeds with more voltage, though I haven't looked into this much. Granted I should I went from 16GB of 3200 CAS14 to 32GB 2666 CAS16 RGB RAM (testing). Again from my very limited knowledge of RAM OC'ing I also hear that RAM OC helps AMD due to its infinity fabric or something like that  Also I know Samsung B-Die tends to play nicer than some of the other dies from Micron or Hynix in 1st gen Ryzen. Granted when I set my XMP profiles I have had no issues on my Gaming 7, I think I heard about the Taichi having better Memory OC, though I am also hearing that the Gaming 7 has a better chance of taking on the 9900K than most other z370 boards. Also according to SL, the Z370 Maximus X and Taichi weren't able to handle OC'ing the 9900K that well. I am going to find out how well or bad it does. I just need to set my RGB VRM to Blue to help keep them cool, else I might have to make a water block for my VRM.


----------



## Falkentyne

B3MMi said:


> I watch Gamers Nexus and Buildzoid but they haven't done VRM temp tests between Z390 boards. Thank you for the information.
> 
> Edit: deleted the unnecessary quote.


Sorry I cant help you then. You're on your own.
Just check and read reviews. People haven posted VRM temp comparisons between these boards on this forum.
Someone did a temp comparison between Aorus Master and Maximus XI. I don't remember where or when.

You can also look here.


----------



## Alexandrus

asdkj1740 said:


> asus marketing is a joke on z390. if they really think their parallel/twin design is good enough to beat its competitors then asus should have promoted this point on their site in advance, rather than posting some proofs of advantages of its twin design having faster response and less over/under shoot after having serious complaints all over the world.
> one thing i appreciate about elmor posted proofs of less over/under shoot pics is that asus really manage to suppress the ripple on its latest twin design compared to m10h doubling version. the ripples seem to be more or less the same on m11h now which is unexpected.


It all depends on what you want from the board.
But yes, their marketing is a joke, their design of the VRM is less with each generation, for some stupid reason. I remember when the Hero was ASP1405i on the time of the Z97 chipset, lol.
Heck, even with the Z170 they used the ASP1405i with the proper VRM design even for the Sabertooth series, which they later killed for some reason, and that was awesome, at least on the Z170, proper board, proper VRM, proper design, aesthetics, placement of connectors, fan control, everything really. Now we have those cheapo TUF boards, lol.


----------



## Alexandrus

B3MMi said:


> I explained it a couple of times before. Basically Gigabyte BIOS is bad, Asrock is decent but not good. And I have no idea if I can plug my water temp sensor in their motherboards and use it to control my fans. That's the short version of it.
> 
> 
> I actually want to control my fans from my BIOS, not Windows. I love the simplicity of using BIOS for that. I hate Corsair Link and their other software. I'm not going to download yet again another buggy software that I need to run all the time. So BIOS is the only option I think.


Correct, but then again, if you are not that fussed about the look and ease of use of the BIOS, the Gigabyte boards are a better option.
Depending on how many fans you have, the HERO might actually be a bad choice because it has not that many FAN headers and they are not placed very well. Gigabyte is better here as well.



B3MMi said:


> The only good thing about Asus it their BIOS nowadays.


That and the aesthetics, for me.


----------



## GeneO

Stockman said:


> An update on my Z390 VRM coil whine issues. Would love to hear any thoughts from the community on this. Running with a 9700k.
> 
> 1) Asus Maximus Hero XI - returned because of coil whine
> 2) Gigabyte Z390 Aorus Master - returned because of coil whine
> 3) Gigabyte Z390 Aorus Ultra - still own - coil whine is present, but less noticeable than what the Master and Hero produced
> 
> I have another Aorus Master board on the way to see if I'm just incredibly unlucky.
> 
> The crazy thing is that the whine is/was impressively consistent across all three boards. Zero noise under partial or full load. LOTS of noise when at idle. In addition, all three boards exhibit a screeching sound from CPU VRM when dragging Chrome windows across the screen. This is helped, but not eliminated, by reducing mouse polling rate from 1000Hz to 125Hz.
> 
> In my quest to solve this I've swapped out every piece of hardware, tried numerous combinations of BIOS/Windows Power settings, and ran the 9700k at stock and OC at different voltages.
> 
> The ONLY standard setting that makes a difference is C-States. Disabling all c-states lowered the idle coil whine on the Hero and Master, but it was still loud enough to give me a headache. On the Ultra, disabling c-states lowers the whine to the point it's almost tolerable. Having all c-states disabled except for C1E makes no difference. Every one (including C1E) must be disabled to see improvement. (Side note #1: I've noticed that even after disabling all C states on the Gigabyte boards, including C1E, Windows perfmon still shows the CPU entering C1 when at idle. I don't know why - using High Performance power setting.)
> 
> As for non-standard settings, disabling processor idle state in windows power options completely removes the whine. To get this setting to show up you have to edit the registry. After disabling idle state, the CPU will consume somewhere between 50-70w at idle - not ideal. (Side note #2: when processor idle state is disabled, pefmon no longer shows CPU enter C1 when at idle)
> 
> So when I'm gaming, or doing any other process that puts load on the CPU, no problem. When I'm browsing the web or sending email, however, it's really hard to concentrate.
> 
> Is there a design difference in the VRM for Z390 boards that is causing this? Maybe I'm just unlucky? I haven't seen any reviewers report this issue, but there are other cases of end-users experiencing VRM whine on their Z390 boards reported on this site and others.



Perhaps it is your power supply. What is it? It can whine under load.


----------



## Telstar

B3MMi said:


> Should I actually burn the extra 40€ on the Master? Ultra 289€ vs Master 329€.


I would. Better VRMs, debug codes, and more bios options.


----------



## AlphaC

Alexandrus said:


> It all depends on what you want from the board.
> But yes, their marketing is a joke, their design of the VRM is less with each generation, for some stupid reason. I remember when the Hero was ASP1405i on the time of the Z97 chipset, lol.
> Heck, even with the Z170 they used the ASP1405i with the proper VRM design even for the Sabertooth series, which they later killed for some reason, and that was awesome, at least on the Z170, proper board, proper VRM, proper design, aesthetics, placement of connectors, fan control, everything really. Now we have those cheapo TUF boards, lol.


I think people overestimate how good Sabertooth was. When they had the extended warranty it was decent but overpriced midrange, since on:
z77/x79/z97 it still used LFPAKs aka low RDS(on) mosfets

z87 it still used the Powerpaks instead of NexFETs vs Maximus boards.
z170 it dropped to TUF Sabertooth and used Onsemi 4c09+4c06 Powerpaks

----

The main reasons to get a Master board are the level of control IR35201 allows you and the BIOS switch if you're tweaking your memory overclock constantly (whereas multiplier normally doesn't corrupt BIOS memory OC easily will). Supposedly there's an ESS DAC on the Master as well , but in independent testing it is within margin of error. The Ultra has a debug code LED already and the cooling isn't that far off from the Master even with the backplate.


The Designare is the best bang for buck if you need Thunderbolt 3 with the Asrock Phantom ITX a close second (low power Thunderbolt chip is used which is limited to 20Gbps).


----------



## Falkentyne

AlphaC said:


> I think people overestimate how good Sabertooth was. When they had the extended warranty it was decent but overpriced midrange, since on:
> z77/x79/z97 it still used LFPAKs aka low RDS(on) mosfets
> 
> z87 it still used the Powerpaks instead of NexFETs vs Maximus boards.
> z170 it dropped to TUF Sabertooth and used Onsemi 4c09+4c06 Powerpaks
> 
> ----
> 
> The main reasons to get a Master board are the level of control IR35201 allows you and the BIOS switch if you're tweaking your memory overclock constantly (whereas multiplier normally doesn't corrupt BIOS memory OC easily will). Supposedly there's an ESS DAC on the Master as well , but in independent testing it is within margin of error. The Ultra has a debug code LED already and the cooling isn't that far off from the Master even with the backplate.
> 
> 
> The Designare is the best bang for buck if you need Thunderbolt 3 with the Asrock Phantom ITX a close second (low power Thunderbolt chip is used which is limited to 20Gbps).


I just had a RAM timing fail after trying to boot 2x16GB TridentZ b-die 3200mhz at 4000 mhz cas 18-18-18-42 @ 1.40v.
Board took a few minutes then I heard 5 very loud long beeps, then the board shut off and booted at bios defaults (CPU vcore was at 4700 mhz @ 1.18v, RAM was at 2133 mhz, 1.2v etc).
I then loaded a saved profile and was back to the races.

Now I'm memtesting the default cas 14-14-14-34 3200 mhz with command rate 1T instead of 2T.

Some stupid joker earlier said that command rate 1T woudn't work on 16 GB dimms as it only worked on single sided memory. That guy was a complete fool.


----------



## B3MMi

Alexandrus said:


> B3MMi said:
> 
> 
> 
> I explained it a couple of times before. Basically Gigabyte BIOS is bad, Asrock is decent but not good. And I have no idea if I can plug my water temp sensor in their motherboards and use it to control my fans. That's the short version of it.
> 
> 
> I actually want to control my fans from my BIOS, not Windows. I love the simplicity of using BIOS for that. I hate Corsair Link and their other software. I'm not going to download yet again another buggy software that I need to run all the time. So BIOS is the only option I think.
> 
> 
> 
> Correct, but then again, if you are not that fussed about the look and ease of use of the BIOS, the Gigabyte boards are a better option.
> Depending on how many fans you have, the HERO might actually be a bad choice because it has not that many FAN headers and they are not placed very well. Gigabyte is better here as well.
> 
> 
> 
> B3MMi said:
> 
> 
> 
> The only good thing about Asus it their BIOS nowadays.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> That and the aesthetics, for me.
Click to expand...

9 or 12 fans that I will be controlling in clusters of 3 each. Of course I'm going to use splitters though.


----------



## Raghar

Stockman said:


> The crazy thing is that the whine is/was impressively consistent across all three boards. Zero noise under partial or full load. LOTS of noise when at idle. In addition, all three boards exhibit a screeching sound from CPU VRM when dragging Chrome windows across the screen. This is helped, but not eliminated, by reducing mouse polling rate from 1000Hz to 125Hz.


I'd guess VRMs are too OP. Have you used manual, or adaptive? Did you use onboard graphic?

I remember I returned Seasonic Prime Fanless because it had buzzing sound when PC was off, and less buzzing sound but still, when PC was in sleep mode. I need noiseless PC, and I need to power it off/send it to sleep mode at least once per day.


----------



## Solarity

@GBT-MatthewH One thing I noticed, when mounting a vertical GPU, the GPU blocks the diagnostic LEDs as they are at the bottom of the board on the Z370 Gaming 7


----------



## AlphaC

https://thinkcomputers.org/evga-z390-ftw-motherboard-review/4/


> The next overclocking option is the new “OC Robot”. This will actually test different overclocks and decide what your system can handle based on your cooling. It has a very cool interface as well. Our our case it gave us an overclock of 5.2 GHz across all eight cores.
> 
> Now this overclock would have worked, except that when you apply the changes it keeps the voltage on “Auto”. So when you put full load on the CPU the temperature jumps up quite high. Less than a minute into our stress test and we were at 96C! So with that I went back into the BIOS and set the Vcore voltage manually to 1.35V.


 Z390 FTW looks promising but no word on package power

---------------







https://www.sakhtafzarmag.com/مادربرد/27883/asus-z390-rog-maximus-xi-formula-review

AIDA64 FPU on Aorus Master , no direct airflow on 360 AIO

https://www.expreview.com/65529-all.html


> After the temperature limit is up to half an hour, the temperature is basically stable. Some core temperatures have exceeded 100 °C, some are only 90 °C, and the power supply temperature is also 90 °C. The surface temperature of the heat sink is 67 °C, while the temperature at the back is At 74 ° C, although Gigabyte has provided a strong VRM power supply, the temperature still looks a bit high, but in fact these power supply components, especially Mosfet are high temperature resistant, IR3553M's maximum operating temperature can reach 150 ° C, so now This temperature is not a problem, and it is unlikely that such a load will be used in actual use.


Z390-E STRIX (OnSemi variant) with VRM fan , front of PCB








Without fan, 5GHz result is not great at least in Prime95







https://diy.pconline.com.cn/1196/11969724_all.html#content_page_2


https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/asus-rog-maximus-xi-hero-wi-fi-i9-9900k-motherboard,5918-4.html


> The “default” settings drag the CPU down to 3.60 GHz at just under one volt, which helps keep the temperature of both the voltage regulator and CPU cores in check. But that’s not the 4.70 GHz that the other boards are running. With the power limits uncapped to allow the board to hold the CPU’s 4.70 GHz Turbo Boost mode, the Maximus XI Hero _still_ has the lowest CPU core temperature, but it also has the second-highest voltage regulator temperature.



Also memory overclock wasn't much better , Taichi Ultimate was the top board for that.



-------
MSI put up the slides I posted earlier on their site https://tw.msi.com/blog/intel-9th-cpu-overclocking-5ghz-with-z390-motherboards

-------
Gigabyte Gaming X review at Xfastest
https://news.xfastest.com/review/review-03/55617/gigabyte-z390-gaming-x/



-------




Knjaz136 said:


> Still wonder, why Aorus Ultra getting so little review coverage and spotlight, in comparison to Master and Pro? It seems a pretty solid choice for 9900k.


Because the Aorus Pro ticks most of the boxes for people and it has been on sale. The Ultra has a 3rd M.2 which is a niche feature, as well as Debug LED (rather than status LEDs) and USB 3.1 front header (also present on the Designare). The cooling is improved, but as shown by hardware.info NL the Aorus Pro does well enough in a normal situation (non Prime95 with Be Quiet case fans) and even the Aorus Elite can do 5GHz Prime95 AVX although the features cut make the $10 increase to the Pro well worth it.

Essentially it comes down to the pricepoint, the $200 pricepoint is what most people are willing to spend for mainstream boards that aren't absolutely garbage.


Anything awarded to the Aorus Pro likely also applies to the Aorus Ultra , the audio section doesn't appear to have any major differences.


----------



## Knjaz136

Still wonder, why Aorus Ultra getting so little review coverage and spotlight, in comparison to Master and Pro? It seems a pretty solid choice for 9900k.


----------



## GBT-MatthewH

Knjaz136 said:


> Still wonder, why Aorus Ultra getting so little review coverage and spotlight, in comparison to Master and Pro? It seems a pretty solid choice for 9900k.


That's partly on us. For media samples I got Master/Pro - hence that's the bulk of the reviews you see. Motherboard reviews take time so we tend to focus on 1-2 each launch.


----------



## B3MMi

Does the Z390 Aorus master have High current fan headers? 3A for example?


----------



## GBT-MatthewH

B3MMi said:


> Does the Z390 Aorus master have High current fan headers? 3A for example?


(2) 2 Amp headers seen in teal....

Blue = normal fan header
Red Thermostat = Internal temperature readings
Green Thermostat = External temperature readings (2 pin thermistor header, included in the box)


----------



## Solarity

I am running my 24 hour leak test now, I am hoping to test the Z370 Gaming 7 vs. 9900K OC this weekend. I will log ambient, coolant, CPU, and VRM temps. I will run Prime95 for stress testing. If my VRM gets to hot, I will remove the LEDs and metal diffuser that covers the heat sinks. If that isn't enough, I will try a two mosfet blocks I have laying around. The VRM cooling is my biggest concern. I have a 2x360mm Rads cooling a 1080 and a 9900K. Wonder if I should use my standard fan profile based off coolant or run fans at 100%


----------



## Alexandrus

AlphaC said:


> I think people overestimate how good Sabertooth was. When they had the extended warranty it was decent but overpriced midrange, since on:
> z77/x79/z97 it still used LFPAKs aka low RDS(on) mosfets
> 
> z87 it still used the Powerpaks instead of NexFETs vs Maximus boards.
> z170 it dropped to TUF Sabertooth and used Onsemi 4c09+4c06 Powerpaks


As I said, VRM is not the end all of motherboards, in my opinion.
The Sabertooth boards had a great layout, lots of FAN headers with FAN Stop function in BIOS, which for ASUS is still tricky, unless you use the graphical interface or software in OS, nice aesthetics, clean, etc.
Sure, they did not have the greatest VRM, but they had a 5 year warranty for 24/7 operation, which is nice.
I mean, the Sabertooths were never designed for OC anyway, so VRM was not a priority.
Still, they used the ASP1405i controller, unlike today's ROG boards, lol. And more phases, but who's counting 
In that range, today we have the TUF boards, which are craptastic in all aspects, aesthetics, VRM, features, even pricing


----------



## AlphaC

Power delivery on an overclocking chipset should be priority # 1 (not just overclocking but power consumption). Otherwise you could just buy H series or B series chipset.


Connectivity should be priority 2 , because every single user can make use of it and it's one of the highlights of Z390 over H370. On Z370 many boards didn't have USB 3.1 gen 2 at all.



Audio is debatable since some people might use USB DACs, but anything with ALC1220 performs relatively close. Z390-A didn't put out a result that impressive but it still performed better than ALC892 based solutions.


Memory XMP speeds should be another focus, with at least 3600+ memory speed support. Over 3866 without manual tuning is rare on all vendors, so those claims are CPU dependent. The number of people that buy high speed memory kits that cost more than the motherboard is low so this can't be a top priority.


If you look at the ~$130 H370 Pro Carbon, STRIX H370-F , or Aorus H370 Gaming 3 , it begs the question of why even bother to have low end Z390 boards with power delivery that can't be pushed.


I'm still waiting for more Tomahawk + STRIX Z390-H reviews by the way.


-----------------
https://www.kitguru.net/components/...-z390-phantom-gaming-9-motherboard-review/11/

Phantom Gaming 9 review on Kitguru is rather in depth:
Stock – 67 degrees Celsius bank 1 (VCore) and 52 degrees Celsius bank 2 (VCore, iGPU, VCCSA, VCCIO)
OC – 73 degrees Celsius bank 1 (VCore) and 56 degrees Celsius bank 2 (VCore, iGPU, VCCSA, VCCIO)


> The Powenetics software provides the power consumption at 12v input (pre-CPU VRM), and the CPU provides the power consumption (CPU Package Power) after the CPU VRM has translated the power into a useful format (post-VRM). Based on this we can provide a _rough estimate _of VRM efficiency and “wasted” energy that likely translates into heat.
> 
> 
> Stock: 137-watts reported by CPU, 161-watts recorded, approximately *85%* efficient and *24-watts* of heat output.
> Overclocked: 160-watts reported, 175-watts recorded, approximately *91%* efficient and *15-watts* of heat output.
> ASRock also provides VRM level input and output power statistics and these give the following results:
> 
> 
> Stock: 127-watts VRM output, 153-watts VRM input, approximately *83%* efficient and *26-watts* of heat output.
> Overclocked: 138-watts VRM output, 167-watts VRM input, approximately *83%* efficient and *27-watts* of heat output.


----------



## Robbært

AlphaC said:


> https://www.kitguru.net/components/...-z390-phantom-gaming-9-motherboard-review/11/
> 
> Phantom Gaming 9 review on Kitguru is rather in depth:
> Stock – 67 degrees Celsius bank 1 (VCore) and 52 degrees Celsius bank 2 (VCore, iGPU, VCCSA, VCCIO)
> OC – 73 degrees Celsius bank 1 (VCore) and 56 degrees Celsius bank 2 (VCore, iGPU, VCCSA, VCCIO)


Taichi VRM go to 85C and Phantom Gaming 9 stay 73C?
looking at their OC screens:
168W 5.0GHz 9900K 1.3v (it 130A instead of 190)
146W 4.7GHz 9900K 1.3v (112A)
130A is very light load.
I think LinX small FFT should be entry-level test. Nothing less.
There no point. Any cheapest z370 with VRM cooler can 130A and support 9900k.


----------



## asdkj1740

well well well it is here.
come on apex, show us what you have got.


----------



## Robostyle

Hm, so hwluxx does claim that M11EX has doublers, however I can't see any on the photos provided, just in the same table. Anyone could prove/disapprove?


----------



## AlphaC

asdkj1740 said:


> well well well it is here.
> come on apex, show us what you have got.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VzM_RBnwHkU



Looks like some sort of exposed junction powerstage. IR3575 or ISL99227B




Robostyle said:


> Hm, so hwluxx does claim that M11EX has doublers, however I can't see any on the photos provided, just in the same table. Anyone could prove/disapprove?


 AFAIK it has no doublers.


----------------------------------

Z390 Edge ATX sized teardown
http://itlink.tistory.com/227


----------



## The Stilt

Robostyle said:


> Hm, so hwluxx does claim that M11EX has doublers, however I can't see any on the photos provided, just in the same table. Anyone could prove/disapprove?


MXIE uses the same non-interleaved "parallel" config as MXIG.
Therefore no doublers used.

Can't see HWLux table stating that doublers would be used, thou.


----------



## Wihglah

mouacyk said:


> rocking 9900k 5ghz at 1.264v on evga z370 micro with avx power maxing at 190w. I'm only using the 8pin eps cable now. Should i also plug in the 4 pin supplemental?


The real question is - why not?


----------



## Falkentyne

mouacyk said:


> rocking 9900k 5ghz at 1.264v on evga z370 micro with avx power maxing at 190w. I'm only using the 8pin eps cable now. Should i also plug in the 4 pin supplemental?


Why wouldn't you plug in the 4 pin? Unless you're really hurting for space no harm can come from it and if you ever wind up exceeding more power then only benefits. Also I don't know if load is balanced out, but having two cables plugged in can also help the cables last longer.

Heck I plugged in both 8 pin cables just because they are there.


----------



## mouacyk

Wihglah said:


> The real question is - why not?





Falkentyne said:


> Why wouldn't you plug in the 4 pin? Unless you're really hurting for space no harm can come from it and if you ever wind up exceeding more power then only benefits. Also I don't know if load is balanced out, but having two cables plugged in can also help the cables last longer.
> 
> Heck I plugged in both 8 pin cables just because they are there.


Yes, I will be plugging in the additional 4pin, especially since this is such a power-hungry CPU. How common are 4+4 pin cable arrangements that come stock with PSU's? I seem to be out of stock 4+4pin cables. Luckily, I ordered a few custom ones from Moddiy that can be split if need to for my X79 server, so will be re-appropriating one of those.


----------



## Robostyle

ROG Maximus XI Extreme| ASP1405I| 5 x 2
Doesn't 5x2 means it is doubled aswell, but yet, and yes, non-interleaved? 
I thought, it both ("echte" and "pseudo") means phases are doubled - only difference if pwm signal is being seperated or not. 
And does that mean M11XE has only 5 true phases?


----------



## Falkentyne

mouacyk said:


> Yes, I will be plugging in the additional 4pin, especially since this is such a power-hungry CPU. How common are 4+4 pin cable arrangements that come stock with PSU's? I seem to be out of stock 4+4pin cables. Luckily, I ordered a few custom ones from Moddiy that can be split if need to for my X79 server, so will be re-appropriating one of those.


I thought that on most PSU's, if a second 8 pin is included, the second 8 pin EPS can be split into 4+4? At least I know mine can.


----------



## asdkj1740

AlphaC said:


> Looks like some sort of exposed junction powerstage. IR3575 or ISL99227B


the power consumption is quiet low, as that guys said it was running non avx loadings.
would like to see more on running avx prime95 so as to compared with gigabyte aorus xtreme.


----------



## jelome1989

asdkj1740 said:


> well well well it is here.
> come on apex, show us what you have got.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VzM_RBnwHkU


Yeah, really curious how the Apex performs. I'll be buying it regardless the moment it becomes available. Hope it won't be later than January


----------



## asdkj1740

bought a evga classified k z370 on newegg recently (then realised buying in amazon is $20usd cheaper after my purchase....).

some interesting figures to me:

1. speedfan works with evga fintek F71889A, amazing software allowing me to controll fans according to gpu temp now.
vs gigabyte ultra gaming 2.0 is not being supported by speedfan sadly.

2. i cant get boot into window with default evga bios. cant even see my ssd as a boot drive on evga classified k z370 although all drives are detected. then i have to set to legacy mode in order to activate my ssd boot drive and got booted eventaully.
vs gigabyte has no issue on locating boot drive.

3. cant be stable when 1.35v is set on evga classified k z370 bios.
vs supprisingly at the same 1.35v on gigabyte ug2.0 my 8700k can run without problems.

4. no fcuking options in bios that can raise the tjmax and power/current limit on evga bios...there are only two options for llc, one is enable another one is disable. 
vs gigabyte ug2.0 has them all although the max power draw i can get is ~190w only.

5. readings on different super i/o chips & pwm chips & cpu enhanced are different on hwinfo64...i dont know which one is accurate. 
vs hwinfo64 readings on gigabyte ug2.0 are consistent.

6. 4pin fan headers on evga classified k z370, but only 3 of them are real pwm controlled, while the rest are dc controlled only. on speedfan reading the fintek io chip it shows 3 fan headers only, indicating only 3 real pwm controlled are controlled by fintek i/o.
vs. gigabyte has 5 in total and all of them are real pwm controlled fan headers, plus a relatively better fan controll in bios.


breaking news:
that guy who bought my ug2.0 has a hof II 4000 8*2 kit, and of course he cant get booted with xmp enabled, but he can manually tweak settings like c19 25 25 25 47 at 1.4v vddr and 1.35v for vccsa &vccio to get 3900mhz...seems the latest f11 gigabyte bios really help in ram oc.
i was getting 3600c14 stuck on gigabyte 2.0 at older bios, i have never tried the latest f11 bios sadly. i am so regret lol.


----------



## Raghar

Robostyle said:


> Hm, so hwluxx does claim that M11EX has doublers, however I can't see any on the photos provided, just in the same table. Anyone could prove/disapprove?


No doublers. If they wanna to add doublers they would add them on hero as well. In fact if they wanted to be nice, they could run proper 8 phase... ... and add 100$ to your bill. Remember current z390 Asus line is about keeping costs down and sell at high prices. Asus kinda jumped the shark with this behavior.


----------



## Timur Born

I ran quite a few Prime95 passes and crashes (up to 250W package power) on my Aorus Master while still leaving the (air blocking) protective stickers on the VRM section. VRM temps were no problem at all yet.


----------



## asdkj1740

Raghar said:


> No doublers. If they wanna to add doublers they would add them on hero as well. In fact if they wanted to be nice, they could run proper 8 phase... ... and add 100$ to your bill. Remember current z390 Asus line is about keeping costs down and sell at high prices. Asus kinda jumped the shark with this behavior.


acutally asus z390 vrm under maximus lineup are all upgraded.


----------



## Robostyle

Well, can't say it was decent upgrade.

Anyway - Well, can't say it was much of an upgrade...

Anyway - https://www.hardwareluxx.de/community/f12/lga-1151-mainboard-vrm-liste-1175784.html here's what I'm looking at - presuming the table provides correct info - we have M11EX with only 5 true phases, doubled up to 10, but without dedicated pwm signal. 
So, I'm kinda confused because of such "cheap" approach from Asus, for the top-of-the-line platform motherboard...even VIII Extreme had 8 true phases provided only for IA! 
At the same time Z390 has only 5 - how are they intended to run 8core. 
I mean, yeah, that's still 60A mosfets, high quality, etc,etc...but cmon. They could have made something more "enthusiastic" for 500$ board...

Thus, I still doubt that phases were "pseudo-doubled" - so I'm looking for someone who already obtained one, just to check if that info is truth. 

P.S. The link they have for M11EX vrm review - totally untranslatable chinese.


----------



## Falkentyne

Robostyle said:


> Well, can't say it was decent upgrade.
> 
> Anyway - Well, can't say it was much of an upgrade...
> 
> Anyway - https://www.hardwareluxx.de/community/f12/lga-1151-mainboard-vrm-liste-1175784.html here's what I'm looking at - presuming the table provides correct info - we have M11EX with only 5 true phases, doubled up to 10, but without dedicated pwm signal.
> So, I'm kinda confused because of such "cheap" approach from Asus, for the top-of-the-line platform motherboard...even VIII Extreme had 8 true phases provided only for IA!
> At the same time Z390 has only 5 - how are they intended to run 8core.
> I mean, yeah, that's still 60A mosfets, high quality, etc,etc...but cmon. They could have made something more "enthusiastic" for 500$ board...
> 
> Thus, I still doubt that phases were "pseudo-doubled" - so I'm looking for someone who already obtained one, just to check if that info is truth.
> 
> P.S. The link they have for M11EX vrm review - totally untranslatable chinese.


I keep seeing this chart and all this "Asus cheaped out" stuff, but does it actually perform or overclock worse or have worse voltage regulation? And that other thread with over 100 pages.
Also the Maximus XI is the only line with proper accurate vcore monitoring (<16mv off from VR Vout, which is the raw vcore sensor).


----------



## Raghar

Robostyle said:


> Thus, I still doubt that phases were "pseudo-doubled" - so I'm looking for someone who already obtained one, just to check if that info is truth.
> 
> P.S. The link they have for M11EX vrm review - totally untranslatable chinese.


From that Chinese link controller is ASP1405I, which can't run 12 phases. 5 fat+2 = 7. Frankly I wonder what can be hurt by running it at 6 true + 2. Or 7 true + 1 (nobody wants that iGPU anyway). I'd prefer if Asus released true 8 without iGPU, and add USB ports instead. Fat chance.

MOSFET is IR3550M. I didn't see ANY mention of any doubler in Chinese review nor in this https://www.bjorn3d.com/2018/11/asus-maximus-xi-extreme-review/4/ review. Only 10K capacitors. MB for these who needs slow mode and a lot of components on MB.

I'd prefer WS board with a lot of addon cards I used on previous boards. But current Asus WS PRO should be priced 70$ less, and still it desperately needs fins on heatsinks. (And there are complains that WS PRO can't run 4000 MHz RAM stable even on 3000 MHz.) Basically real high end from Asus doesn't exist for Z390. Apex possibly, but Apex has only 2 RAM slots I use 4x kits to have compatibility between quad channel boards (when I can get decent second hand for CHEAP) and mainstream.


----------



## Robostyle

Falkentyne said:


> I keep seeing this chart and all this "Asus cheaped out" stuff, but does it actually perform or overclock worse or have worse voltage regulation? And that other thread with over 100 pages.
> Also the Maximus XI is the only line with proper accurate vcore monitoring (<16mv off from VR Vout, which is the raw vcore sensor).


If I was about going for "just fine" - I would buy taichi. With Maximus Extreme, I would like to have maximized stuff, real high grade, even if it will be too overkill. Especially for 500$ motherboard in mass desktop segment.
And again, MVIII Extreme had 8 true, straight phases for only 6700K - and now they have this 5x2 for 8 core. That just doesn't make any sence.



Raghar said:


> From that Chinese link controller is ASP1405I, which can't run 12 phases. 5 fat+2 = 7. Frankly I wonder what can be hurt by running it at 6 true + 2. Or 7 true + 1 (nobody wants that iGPU anyway). I'd prefer if Asus released true 8 without iGPU, and add USB ports instead. Fat chance.
> 
> MOSFET is IR3550M. I didn't see ANY mention of any doubler in Chinese review nor in this https://www.bjorn3d.com/2018/11/asus-maximus-xi-extreme-review/4/ review. Only 10K capacitors. MB for these who needs slow mode and a lot of components on MB.
> 
> I'd prefer WS board with a lot of addon cards I used on previous boards. But current Asus WS PRO should be priced 70$ less, and still it desperately needs fins on heatsinks. (And there are complains that WS PRO can't run 4000 MHz RAM stable even on 3000 MHz.) Basically real high end from Asus doesn't exist for Z390. Apex possibly, but Apex has only 2 RAM slots I use 4x kits to have compatibility between quad channel boards (when I can get decent second hand for CHEAP) and mainstream.


Yeah, don't think they have anything cheap to propose, for control over 10-phase ATM - at least for PC market. 
That will do, nice review over there, yet, they didn't actually stated the exact configuration particullary on extreme - only mentioning it "one of those 10-phase asus top boards". 
I have M10H here with ASP1405I - powerstages are Vishay Si7905DN though, don't know if those are of good/great/poor quality - at least they are capable of 60A delivery as IR ones. Can't say anything against quality of power delivery or overall stability, it runs great - though temps and voltage stability could have been a little bit better.

P.S. they didn't saw any doublers because seems like EX's VRM was built this way 
https://img.tweakpc.de/image/cheap-doubled-phase-circuit.j3j


----------



## Falkentyne

Robostyle said:


> If I was about going for "just fine" - I would buy taichi. With Maximus Extreme, I would like to have maximized stuff, real high grade, even if it will be too overkill. Especially for 500$ motherboard in mass desktop segment.
> And again, MVIII Extreme had 8 true, straight phases for only 6700K - and now they have this 5x2 for 8 core. That just doesn't make any sence.
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, don't think they have anything cheap to propose, for control over 10-phase ATM - at least for PC market.
> That will do, nice review over there, yet, they didn't actually stated the exact configuration particullary on extreme - only mentioning it "one of those 10-phase asus top boards".
> I have M10H here with ASP1405I - powerstages are Vishay Si7905DN though, don't know if those are of good/great/poor quality - at least they are capable of 60A delivery as IR ones. Can't say anything against quality of power delivery or overall stability, it runs great - though temps and voltage stability could have been a little bit better.


Are the phases exactly the same brand, type and manufacturer?
I mean there is a difference between International Rectifier (infineon?) and Intersil. All that stuff is beyond me though.


----------



## Solarity

Z370 Gaming 7 on stock settings is having issues with the 9900K. I had a couple of prime95 runs when the system bounced a few seconds after it started. Another run before that was able to run, and I stopped the run as the VRM temps were in excess if 100C. Any suggestions? The UEFI is on F11, which is the latest.


----------



## Falkentyne

Solarity said:


> Z370 Gaming 7 on stock settings is having issues with the 9900K. I had a couple of prime95 runs when the system bounced a few seconds after it started. Another run before that was able to run, and I stopped the run as the VRM temps were in excess if 100C. Any suggestions? The UEFI is on F11, which is the latest.


Suggestions?
Don't run prime95 on a lower end z370 motherboard?


----------



## Solarity

Falkentyne said:


> Suggestions?
> Don't run prime95 on a lower end z370 motherboard?


Haha, you think it should be able to handle it, I would like to know the reason as to why it is doing what it is doing. I understand that when it did ran, why the VRM got hot, though I am curious to find out why it would reboot the machine at the start of prime95. I ran Aida64 for 17 minutes, the VRM got up to ~94. I am trying to figure out what to do at this point.


----------



## Falkentyne

Solarity said:


> Haha, you think it should be able to handle it, I would like to know the reason as to why it is doing what it is doing. I understand that when it did ran, why the VRM got hot, though I am curious to find out why it would reboot the machine at the start of prime95. I ran Aida64 for 17 minutes, the VRM got up to ~94. I am trying to figure out what to do at this point.


Did you increase the CPU and vcore current protections to the highest level?
Really hard to troubleshoot these kind of things. Like no one here can really tell you what's going on. You would need an oscilloscope and the proper read points to see what's making the system reboot, as well as monitoring the "On die sense" cpu voltage (NOT the vcore measuring point shown on the motherboard but the actual on-die sense point). etc etc....


----------



## Raghar

Solarity said:


> though I am curious to find out why it would reboot the machine at the start of prime95. I ran Aida64 for 17 minutes, the VRM got up to ~94. I am trying to figure out what to do at this point.


Does Windows still have that feature "reboot on problems"?


----------



## elmor

Solarity said:


> Z370 Gaming 7 on stock settings is having issues with the 9900K. I had a couple of prime95 runs when the system bounced a few seconds after it started. Another run before that was able to run, and I stopped the run as the VRM temps were in excess if 100C. Any suggestions? The UEFI is on F11, which is the latest.


This kind of shutdown is most likely PSU OCP/UVP.


----------



## Solarity

elmor said:


> This kind of shutdown is most likely PSU OCP/UVP.


The PSU is a EVGA 850w SuperNova G3. Granted I did install a cable extension.

I haven't heard about reboot on problem setting.


----------



## elmor

Solarity said:


> The PSU is a EVGA 850w SuperNova G3. Granted I did install a cable extension.
> 
> I haven't heard about reboot on problem setting.


While the PSU might be rated for a high average 12V current, how it deals with transients is another matter. Might be a good idea to try it without the cable extension and see if there's any improvement. Also depends on how good the input filtering is on the board. You could try a higher VRM switching frequency if you can control it on your board, or a steeper load-line (more droop) which should reduce the 12V inrush current.


----------



## Raghar

OCP should shut down PC immediately, no reboot. Then refuse to start for at least 30 seconds until safety stop buzzing and disengage. Though last time I see PSU doing OCP was on Gembird PSU. I think my last OCP was initiated by MB. (Which was shutdown no reboot. Nobody wants reboot immediately after OCP, that could damage PC.) 

My BlueStorm II allowed 2.7V on 5V just fine when it overheated by combination of GTX 560 and low noise PSU fan I used as repair. So not sure about OVP. These things might be legendary, people heard about them but didn't see them. Not even crazy reviewers who put PSU into towel and poured on it hot air, and put these PSU in strain that dropped voltage to unsafe levels. (Of course when PSU manufacturers only declare PSU to be 500W, and actually designed PSU 600W, and set OCP appropriately, it's awesome customer service. The problem is you can never be sure if the PSU is durable and will last years running at higher power consumption, or if the PSU was designed for OCP/OVP/UVP/OTP but not fitted with.)

Personally I hate when I discover that manufacturer fitted PSU by 10K 110C quality capacitors, but then set OTP to 45C for PSU designed to run at passive. You practically can't run PC at 37C air temperature.



Solarity said:


> I haven't heard about reboot on problem setting.


System -> advanced settings -> Startup and Recovery -> untick "Automatic restart"


----------



## elmor

Raghar said:


> OCP should shut down PC immediately, no reboot. Then refuse to start for at least 30 seconds until safety stop buzzing and disengage. Though last time I see PSU doing OCP was on Gembird PSU. I think my last OCP was initiated by MB. (Which was shutdown no reboot. Nobody wants reboot immediately after OCP, that could damage PC.)
> 
> My BlueStorm II allowed 2.7V on 5V just fine when it overheated by combination of GTX 560 and low noise PSU fan I used as repair. So not sure about OVP. These things might be legendary, people heard about them but didn't see them. Not even crazy reviewers who put PSU into towel and poured on it hot air, and put these PSU in strain that dropped voltage to unsafe levels. (Of course when PSU manufacturers only declare PSU to be 500W, and actually designed PSU 600W, and set OCP appropriately, it's awesome customer service. The problem is you can never be sure if the PSU is durable and will last years running at higher power consumption, or if the PSU was designed for OCP/OVP/UVP/OTP but not fitted with.)
> 
> Personally I hate when I discover that manufacturer fitted PSU by 10K 110C quality capacitors, but then set OTP to 45C for PSU designed to run at passive. You practically can't run PC at 37C air temperature.
> 
> 
> System -> advanced settings -> Startup and Recovery -> untick "Automatic restart"



That really depends. If the OCP is triggered by sustained high current and/or temperature then yes. If it's triggered by a momentary rush current, or UVP is detected, it often manifests like this. There's not only one PSU design, you can't apply a single case to all.


----------



## Falkentyne

elmor said:


> While the PSU might be rated for a high average 12V current, how it deals with transients is another matter. Might be a good idea to try it without the cable extension and see if there's any improvement. Also depends on how good the input filtering is on the board. You could try a higher VRM switching frequency if you can control it on your board, or a steeper load-line (more droop) which should reduce the 12V inrush current.


Nice to see you here again, Elmor.
What exactly does "VRM switching frequency" and "PWM phase control" actually do, anyway?
Does it help with a CPU's maximum overclock (let's say you were borderline unstable at 5.2 ghz 1.375v)?

I was under the impression these settings only helped keep the power stable going from idle to load to idle (not talking about transient vcore overshooting), especially when C-states were enabled......


----------



## elmor

VRM switching frequency controls how often the controller is turning on/off the MOSFETs feeding power to the output. If that's done at a higher frequency, you get shorter PWM pulses which results in lower input and output ripple. Unless you're at a very low frequency (<300 KHz) there's questionable benefit to overclocking stability. The wrong switching frequency will hurt efficiency of your VRM leading to higher temperatures. For example switching losses increase at higher frequency since the MOSFETs changes states more often. Modern power stages achieve peak efficiency around 300-600 KHz. 

"PWM phase control" is some kind of marketing name, but it's either related to phase current balancing or phase shedding. 

Current balancing allows for asymmetrical PWM control of the MOSFETs, steering more current through phases that have better thermal dissipation. For example the edge phases will run cooler and are often configured to output higher currents, which reduces the load and thus temperatures on the hotter "center" phases. It evens out the heat distribution of the VRM and reduces the peak temperature. It's similar to the physical layout change we did on Crosshair VII Hero where we put the two cool SOC phases right in the middle of the Vcore phases (https://www.overclock.net/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=154289&d=1524143181). 

Phase shedding allows the VRM controller to disable phases for lighter loads to improve efficiency. Power stages have an efficiency curve based on output current, in addition to as previously mentioned switching frequency. If you're idle at desktop and your CPU is only consuming 10A, most likely a single phase will yield the highest efficiency. When the output current increases the controller will enable additional phases based on the programmed thresholds.


----------



## Falkentyne

elmor said:


> VRM switching frequency controls how often the controller is turning on/off the MOSFETs feeding power to the output. If that's done at a higher frequency, you get shorter PWM pulses which results in lower input and output ripple. Unless you're at a very low frequency (<300 KHz) there's questionable benefit to overclocking stability. The wrong switching frequency will hurt efficiency of your VRM leading to higher temperatures. For example switching losses increase at higher frequency since the MOSFETs changes states more often. Modern power stages achieve peak efficiency around 300-600 KHz.
> 
> "PWM phase control" is some kind of marketing name, but it's either related to phase current balancing or phase shedding.
> 
> Current balancing allows for asymmetrical PWM control of the MOSFETs, steering more current through phases that have better thermal dissipation. For example the edge phases will run cooler and are often configured to output higher currents, which reduces the load and thus temperatures on the hotter "center" phases. It evens out the heat distribution of the VRM and reduces the peak temperature. It's similar to the physical layout change we did on Crosshair VII Hero where we put the two cool SOC phases right in the middle of the Vcore phases (https://www.overclock.net/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=154289&d=1524143181).
> 
> Phase shedding allows the VRM controller to disable phases for lighter loads to improve efficiency. Power stages have an efficiency curve based on output current, in addition to as previously mentioned switching frequency. If you're idle at desktop and your CPU is only consuming 10A, most likely a single phase will yield the highest efficiency. When the output current increases the controller will enable additional phases based on the programmed thresholds.


Thank you very much for the PDF and explanation, Elmor !


----------



## ReDXfiRe

http://www.xanxogaming.com/reviews/gigabyte/z390-aorus-pro-wifi/#page5

For those interested on VRM temps on Z390 AORUS Pro/Pro Wifi. I talked a few weeks ago with AlphaC about the issue of doublers on the AORUS Pro getting higher temps on at least two doublers. The conclusion I reached was pretty much the doubler which gets hots are pretty much cramped and somewhat close to the chokes. That said, I'm pretty sure I left the motherboard running 3 hours P95v29.4 at 1.32v with no airflow and PC did not shut down. Adding airflow helped temps both on VRM and doublers lower up. Z390 AORUS Master is next in line after some other things. If there is any reviewers who has done a review on AORUS Pro/Pro Wifi, would be great if they measure doubler itself and PCB nearby to corroborate data.

Hopefully it is useful.

On a side note on these leaked 9900KF, I wonder if Intel might improve solder and if the iGPU removal might help on temps and we would again apply higher voltages.


----------



## Robostyle

BTW, I was wondering - is it possible to adjust properly vdroop and voltage with IA loadlines? Like, it could be more precise method rather that llc calibration provided by mb manufacturers, right?


----------



## Solarity

elmor said:


> That really depends. If the OCP is triggered by sustained high current and/or temperature then yes. If it's triggered by a momentary rush current, or UVP is detected, it often manifests like this. There's not only one PSU design, you can't apply a single case to all.


I will remove the extension cable and plug the PSU ESP cable directly into the 8pin. I know some of the newer boards have 8+4pin or 8+8pin ESP, my board is only limited to a single 8pin ESP. I understand the current limitations with the connectors, though didn't think this would be an issue. 

I also might delid my VRM heatsink as they covered it with LEDs and a metal shroud, this should at least help a little bit for the Aida64 stress tests. I saw the VRM go up to ~90C: 
https://techreport.com/r.x/2017_10_...ng_7_motherboard_reviewed/heatsink-inside.jpg

My system is currently on stock settings, just find it odd that I would need to adjust settings to allow it to work as stock. I was just trying to establish a baseline, then again I have never ran Prime95 on a non-OC system. 

I am doing this more out of curiosity as I haven't seen or heard many people doing this. Granted people who have the money to buy a 9900K, would buy a new MB. I upgraded from a 8600K. I got such a great deal on the CPU + MB that I said I would upgrade next year to the latest gen. That and the 30% cash back at BB made me jump on top of the deal. Though in all it seems like these newer CPUs have less room for OC'ing. In any case this CPU is a HOT one!


----------



## GeneO

Robostyle said:


> BTW, I was wondering - is it possible to adjust properly vdroop and voltage with IA loadlines? Like, it could be more precise method rather that llc calibration provided by mb manufacturers, right?



Yes you can fine tune it to boost the VID and hence vcore using it. I have done so to get, for instance, a resultant effective load line between LL5 and LL6.


----------



## Falkentyne

Robostyle said:


> BTW, I was wondering - is it possible to adjust properly vdroop and voltage with IA loadlines? Like, it could be more precise method rather that llc calibration provided by mb manufacturers, right?


Yes you can but only with adaptive voltage, not manual, because this setting affects the CPU VID only. 
And how it works is very .....bizarre.
Also the intel spec sheets say that the maximum reference value should never be exceeded, and lower values can improve power consumption with good hardware (pretty obvious; the idle VID will be much lower if IA AC and IA DC are set to the lowest non-zero value).

Even if you set it to 1 (0.01 on Asus boards), the VID is still affected by CPU current and other weird factors.
For example, at very low manual voltages (like 1.05v), CPU VID will remain very close to the same at idle and load
At higher voltages (like 1.28v), idle will be low and load will rise a bit, sometimes by 40-60mv or higher if trying to run AVX prime95 or something.
This requires a lot more testing. Even using "Loadline Calibration" will affect the VID somehow.

With the default reference value (1.60 mOhms, or 160 on Gigabyte, 16 on Asus), the VID will be higher at idle than at load. The higher the current, the higher the VID will be.

All I can tell you is that IA AC is the power supply and IA DC is the power measurement. Setting IA AC to a higher value will raise the input voltage.
Setting IA DC to a higher value will raise the "droop" on the VID.

It's up to you if you want to mess around with this. 
You can try stuff like:

IA AC=180 (18 on Asus---do NOT enter a value of 180 on Asus--EVER) for 1.8 mOhms
IA DC=1 (0.01 on Asus) for 0.01 mOhms

IA AC=1 (0.01 mOhms)
IA DC=180 (1.8 mOhms)

IA AC=160
IA DC=160 (default reference values for 8 core on 8/9th gen)

IA AC=210
IA DC=210 (default for 4 and 6 cores on 8th/9th gen)

IA AC=1
IA DC=1 (lowest non zero values on Gigabyte. Remember these are equal to 0.01 on Asus.

REMEMBER: GIGABYTE GOES FROM 1 TO 6249, value of 100=1.0 mOhms
ASUS GOES FROM 0.01 TO 62.49, value of 1= 1.0 mOhms

Going too close to the higher values is *DANGEROUS*.
Try to stay below 2.1 mOhms when testing this.
Best to disable loadline calibration (or set it to Normal, or Standard).

Remember to use adaptive voltages.
Consider starting this test at 4 ghz then go up to 4.7 ghz.

Note: VID has a preset base value at all CPU steps starting at 800 mhz and going up to a certain point where it stops scaling, depending on product SKU. Seems to stop scaling at the intel turbo boost 8 core CPU value on 9th gen (4600 mhz and 4700 mhz)


----------



## ElectroManiac

Decide I'm just gonna go with full ATX.

Taichi vs MSI Meg ACE are my only two decent options available. The gigabytes are out of stock around here.

Don't know what to do.


----------



## AlphaC

ITX board roundup: Asrock cheap ITX fails stock i9, Phantom ITX is top overclocker with lowest voltage


Phantom Gaming 9:


https://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/ASRock/Z390_Phantom_Gaming_9/14.html said:


> The ASRock Z390 Phantom Gaming 9 did a little better than the Taichi I tested a few weeks ago because it would boot at up to 5.3 GHz. However, stability is a lot more than just making it into Windows. Ultimately, the ASRock Z390 Phantom Gaming 9 produced the same results as the other two boards I have looked at; 5.1 GHz at 1.380 volts. Still, this board came closer than any other to passing the test at 5.2 GHz, though a few weeks of BIOS updates could account for the difference.
> ...
> The ASRock Z390 Phantom Gaming 9 proved equally well suited to memory stability. My G.Skill 3866 MHz had no trouble booting with XMP on this board. I am very glad the rock-solid memory compatibility that I have come to expect from ASRock's Taichi boards has carried over on to the Phantom Gaming line.


Load power 260 W --> 50°C
Load power 176 W (stock) --> 43.9°C


----------



## Alexandrus

ElectroManiac said:


> Decide I'm just gonna go with full ATX.
> 
> Taichi vs MSI Meg ACE are my only two decent options available. The gigabytes are out of stock around here.
> 
> Don't know what to do.


Gigabyte Z390 Ultra/Master, or the ASRock Taichi.
MSI MEG Ace I would not buy. The others are cheaper and arguably better.


----------



## ElectroManiac

Alexandrus said:


> ElectroManiac said:
> 
> 
> 
> Decide I'm just gonna go with full ATX.
> 
> Taichi vs MSI Meg ACE are my only two decent options available. The gigabytes are out of stock around here.
> 
> Don't know what to do.
> 
> 
> 
> Gigabyte Z390 Ultra/Master, or the ASRock Taichi.
> MSI MEG Ace I would not buy. The others are cheaper and arguably better.
Click to expand...

Yeah went yesterday to Microcenter and they did have the Gigabyte boards. For some reason it wasn't showing them on stock on the store close to here on their webpage but they have it.

I them was jumping around between the Aorus Pro and the Ultra. Couldn't find that much info about the Ultra online but it seems is kind similar to the Master without the bios switch.

After a while searching online and checking both boards at the store I decide to get the Ultra because my wife was getting tire of waiting lol and because of the bigger heatsink on the VRM.

Apart from the bigger heatsink what other benefits the Ultra has over the Pro?

Trying to think if I should save the $50 difference and go with the Pro instead.


----------



## Solarity

Apparently I did not post this last night - Z370 Gaming 7 vs. 9900K:

I removed the 8pin EPS extender cable and plugged the SuperNova G3 850 w/ EPS cable w/ inline caps directly into the 8pin EPS on the motherboard. I launched Prime95 4 different times last night without incident. The last time was after leaving it on for a few hours. I wasn't able to reproduce the power off scenario that I encountered more than half the time I tried to run Prime95. I also disabled "restart on problems", as suggested. 

I was able to run Prime95 for a minute or so, but manually killed it, after I saw the VRM hit 100c each time. The ambient air temp was 18.8c and the coolant temp of the loop was 20c. The CPU did reach 80c, though went down a few degrees and seemed to hold there, when the fans ramped. I know the CPU would eventually get warmer as the fluid soaks up the heat, though can't say off hand. I know the VRM is currently the weakest link and I am thinking of doing a couple of things:

1) Removing the LED and diffuser covering the VRM. It looks like a heat gun at low temp can be use to warm up the adhesive holding it on. Though It also looks like the LEDs tie into a header that is also connected to the LED in the shroud. It looks like it can a lot more air flow and I am a bit curious how it would work, though at the same time with how quickly the VRM Temps went up, I am unsure if this would help much. I do see it has heat pipe, though it doesn't look like it will do much as it isn't directly contacting the VRM. I also could see if I can torque down the screws as some early boards like mine had issues with this. I didn't have any heat issues with my VRM w/ a 8600K @ 5Ghz. I didn't OC it any further than that as the amount of voltage required didn't seem worth it to reach 5.1Ghz.

https://techreport.com/r.x/2017_10_...ng_7_motherboard_reviewed/heatsink-inside.jpg

2) Mod a VRM water block set to mount it to my motherboard: http://www.frozencpu.com/products/2...or_Water_Block_Kit_-_Copper_Nickel_11435.html

I think this would be the cheapest option, and buying a Monoblock for $150 doesn't make sense when I get a newer board for not much more.

3) Buy a high end z390 Motherboard. This would help with the VRM heat issue as the these boards have more phases and a much better designed VRM cooling. Though that is throwing money at the problem and not as fun investigating. Then again with the CPU running at 78c w/ a 2x360mm custom loop and an 18.8c ambient air temp, I don't know how much heat I can extract from the 9900K. 

In all, it really feels like Intel is pushing it's limit with the 9900K and it feels like for an unlocked chip, you really don't get much custom OC headroom for your money, compared to my 3570k and my 8600k. It almost feels like this CPU should run stock turbo. Also even with the solder TIM, it feels like it still doesn't do a good enough job extracting heat. With great cooling and low ambient temp, it isn't enough as it feels there are still thermal limitations between the die and the water block. I wouldn't recommend the 9900K to people building a new system, the 2700X seems like a much better idea. Many games are starting to move past the 4 core/4 thread rule of thumb. Farcry5 and BF5 are good examples of this. The rule of thumb feels like it is being changed, due to the core war going on between team red and team blue.


----------



## eric98k

EVGA Z390 Dark Motherboard and LUUMI set Cinebench 8-Core CPU World Record
https://www.evga.com/about/pressrelease/?id=327
http://hwbot.org/submission/4000398_luumi_CINEBENCH___r15_core_i9_9900k_3142_cb/


----------



## Telstar

eric98k said:


> EVGA Z390 Dark Motherboard


Price?


----------



## Alexandrus

ElectroManiac said:


> Yeah went yesterday to Microcenter and they did have the Gigabyte boards. For some reason it wasn't showing them on stock on the store close to here on their webpage but they have it.
> 
> I them was jumping around between the Aorus Pro and the Ultra. Couldn't find that much info about the Ultra online but it seems is kind similar to the Master without the bios switch.
> 
> After a while searching online and checking both boards at the store I decide to get the Ultra because my wife was getting tire of waiting lol and because of the bigger heatsink on the VRM.
> 
> Apart from the bigger heatsink what other benefits the Ultra has over the Pro?
> 
> Trying to think if I should save the $50 difference and go with the Pro instead.


Ultra has the same PCB, or very similar, to the Master.
Pro has a different PCB, 4 layer, not something you should care about unless you want high RAM speeds and such.
Otherwise, the Pro is just a fine board, but the Ultra is better in almost every way, except the price. You get the same 12+1 VRM on the Ultra, but you get the diagnose LEDs, 6-8 layer PCB, not sure, and so on.
Hopefully, the BIOS is also a tad better than the PRO


----------



## nyk20z3

For those that said the Apex wasn't coming to Z390 -

https://www.asus.com/us/Motherboards/ROG-MAXIMUS-XI-APEX/overview/


----------



## Falkentyne

Alexandrus said:


> Ultra has the same PCB, or very similar, to the Master.
> Pro has a different PCB, 4 layer, not something you should care about unless you want high RAM speeds and such.
> Otherwise, the Pro is just a fine board, but the Ultra is better in almost every way, except the price. You get the same 12+1 VRM on the Ultra, but you get the diagnose LEDs, 6-8 layer PCB, not sure, and so on.
> Hopefully, the BIOS is also a tad better than the PRO


An old and interesting and still relevant post about board layers and why they are important:

https://www.quora.com/What-is-an-8-layer-PCB-good-for-that-a-4-layer-PCB-cant-do


----------



## ElectroManiac

Alexandrus said:


> ElectroManiac said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah went yesterday to Microcenter and they did have the Gigabyte boards. For some reason it wasn't showing them on stock on the store close to here on their webpage but they have it.
> 
> I them was jumping around between the Aorus Pro and the Ultra. Couldn't find that much info about the Ultra online but it seems is kind similar to the Master without the bios switch.
> 
> After a while searching online and checking both boards at the store I decide to get the Ultra because my wife was getting tire of waiting lol and because of the bigger heatsink on the VRM.
> 
> Apart from the bigger heatsink what other benefits the Ultra has over the Pro?
> 
> Trying to think if I should save the $50 difference and go with the Pro instead.
> 
> 
> 
> Ultra has the same PCB, or very similar, to the Master.
> Pro has a different PCB, 4 layer, not something you should care about unless you want high RAM speeds and such.
> Otherwise, the Pro is just a fine board, but the Ultra is better in almost every way, except the price. You get the same 12+1 VRM on the Ultra, but you get the diagnose LEDs, 6-8 layer PCB, not sure, and so on.
> Hopefully, the BIOS is also a tad better than the PRO /forum/images/smilies/smile.gif
Click to expand...

Yeah I do plan to overclock my memory. It has Samsung E. Not as good as the B but I seen some decent results with the E.

Can't wait to finally be able to assemble everything.

I just saw that Microcenter lower the Ultra prices $12 more. Will call them to see if they will honor that as I just bought the board a day before.



Falkentyne said:


> Alexandrus said:
> 
> 
> 
> Ultra has the same PCB, or very similar, to the Master.
> Pro has a different PCB, 4 layer, not something you should care about unless you want high RAM speeds and such.
> Otherwise, the Pro is just a fine board, but the Ultra is better in almost every way, except the price. You get the same 12+1 VRM on the Ultra, but you get the diagnose LEDs, 6-8 layer PCB, not sure, and so on.
> Hopefully, the BIOS is also a tad better than the PRO /forum/images/smilies/smile.gif
> 
> 
> 
> An old and interesting and still relevant post about board layers and why they are important:
> 
> https://www.quora.com/What-is-an-8-layer-PCB-good-for-that-a-4-layer-PCB-cant-do
Click to expand...

Thanks for the reading.


----------



## Solarity

Falkentyne said:


> An old and interesting and still relevant post about board layers and why they are important:
> 
> https://www.quora.com/What-is-an-8-layer-PCB-good-for-that-a-4-layer-PCB-cant-do


There should also be some thermal benefits as well, I have been designed a couple PCBs in the past couple of months. It is interesting how they do use ground planes and power planes to allow for higher current to be pushed with less resistance. Also the planes can help soak up/transfer some of the heat.


----------



## Alexandrus

Falkentyne said:


> An old and interesting and still relevant post about board layers and why they are important:
> 
> https://www.quora.com/What-is-an-8-layer-PCB-good-for-that-a-4-layer-PCB-cant-do


I know the advantages of having more PCB layers, but I am not sure if it helps in real life, it all depends on usage scenario, as some are happy with 3200-3600 RAM and so on, in fact, most are happy with that, few try higher or see any benefit from higher RAM speeds.
Plus, I have no idea how many layers does the Ultra and Master PCBs have, I would think it's at least 6, but I've never seen it mentioned anywhere.
@nyk20z3, ASUS Maximus XI APEX has been up since at least one month ago, the product page I mean. Some ASUS sponsored OCers already had the board before that eve, they say the VRM is awesome, bla bla.
Looks like a decent board, really, but if the price is outrageous, in pure ASUS style, it might not be enough to save face for the meh VRM used on Hero, Code, Formula.
However, if the price trend is similar to what has been so far, it would be around the same price as the Hero WiFi, in which case...awesome.


----------



## GBT-MatthewH

Alexandrus said:


> Ultra has the same PCB, or very similar, to the Master.


Xtreme - 8 layer
Master/Ultra/Designare - 6 Layer
Pro/Elite - 4 Layer


----------



## jelome1989

Alexandrus said:


> @nyk20z3, ASUS Maximus XI APEX has been up since at least one month ago, the product page I mean. Some ASUS sponsored OCers already had the board before that eve, they say the VRM is awesome, bla bla.
> Looks like a decent board, really, but if the price is outrageous, in pure ASUS style, it might not be enough to save face for the meh VRM used on Hero, Code, Formula.
> However, if the price trend is similar to what has been so far, it would be around the same price as the Hero WiFi, in which case...awesome.


Yeah there's no way the Apex will be priced as the Hero wifi. I would assume it would be priced in between the Formula and the Extreme wouldn't be surprised if it's as expensive as the Extreme. Would love to be proven wrong, of course, as I plan to buy this board


----------



## elmor

jelome1989 said:


> Yeah there's no way the Apex will be priced as the Hero wifi. I would assume it would be priced in between the Formula and the Extreme wouldn't be surprised if it's as expensive as the Extreme. Would love to be proven wrong, of course, as I plan to buy this board


I would expect M11A to be priced similarly to Code, time will tell.


----------



## Alexandrus

Previous gen APEX have been priced somewhere between Hero WiFi and Code, yes. I hope the trend continues and we don't get Extreme prices 
But then again, previous APEX have been E-ATX, with fancy cutouts and heatsinks, the M11A looks more ... normal, regular ATX, no fancy heatsink design, might be priced lower, I hope.


----------



## Falkentyne

Alexandrus said:


> Previous gen APEX have been priced somewhere between Hero WiFi and Code, yes. I hope the trend continues and we don't get Extreme prices
> But then again, previous APEX have been E-ATX, with fancy cutouts and heatsinks, the M11A looks more ... normal, regular ATX, no fancy heatsink design, might be priced lower, I hope.


So the Maximus XI Extreme is going to be the one with the overengineered VRMs and power delivery and stuff?
Does anyone even have this board yet?

I assume this competes with the MSI Godlike and Gigabyte Aorus Xtreme with all those phases and VRM's.
But I still want to see some oscilloscope overshoot tests with loadline calibration at the highest level (0 mOhms). Why hasn't anyone done this?
@elmor can you do this for us?


----------



## moorhen2

Falkentyne said:


> So the Maximus XI Extreme is going to be the one with the overengineered VRMs and power delivery and stuff?
> Does anyone even have this board yet?
> 
> I assume this competes with the MSI Godlike and Gigabyte Aorus Xtreme with all those phases and VRM's.
> But I still want to see some oscilloscope overshoot tests with loadline calibration at the highest level (0 mOhms). Why hasn't anyone done this?
> 
> @elmor can you do this for us?


I have the Extreme now, as well as the Hero, VRM's didn't get above 43c at 1.235Vv vcore for 5.1ghz overclock stressed for over an hour with the Extreme, that's not using FPU/AVX.


----------



## SpeedyIV

moorhen2 said:


> I have the Extreme now, as well as the Hero, VRM's didn't get above 43c at 1.235Vv vcore for 5.1ghz overclock stressed for over an hour with the Extreme, that's not using FPU/AVX.


That's pretty impressive. How about the MXI Hero? Since you have both, I am interested in your opinions on the differences between the 2, particularly with respect to VRM performance. The Hero has the same VRM as the Code and Formula, and I think the Gene has the same VRM as the Extreme. Not sure about the Apex. I am leaning towards Code over Hero (due to other differences), but am really interested in what VRM performance I am giving up by not stepping up to the Extreme (or Gene or Apex).

Thanks!


----------



## moorhen2

SpeedyIV said:


> That's pretty impressive. How about the MXI Hero? Since you have both, I am interested in your opinions on the differences between the 2, particularly with respect to VRM performance. The Hero has the same VRM as the Code and Formula, and I think the Gene has the same VRM as the Extreme. Not sure about the Apex. I am leaning towards Code over Hero (due to other differences), but am really interested in what VRM performance I am giving up by not stepping up to the Extreme (or Gene or Apex).
> 
> Thanks!


The Hero's VRM will cope very well with anything you want to throw at it, the Extreme just has an upgraded VRM, as you would expect for a premium board. Don't believe all the internet blurb about Asus boards and dodgy VRM's, BS in my opinion.


----------



## Falkentyne

moorhen2 said:


> The Hero's VRM will cope very well with anything you want to throw at it, the Extreme just has an upgraded VRM, as you would expect for a premium board. Don't believe all the internet blurb about Asus boards and dodgy VRM's, BS in my opinion.


The VRM's aren't dodgy at all.
It's just that they were advertised as being one thing while being lower grade (aka marketing spin).
Doesn't mean that they can't possibly push a 9900K to 5.5 ghz on chilled water+delid+LM or have excellent voltage regulation or not....such things can only be tested with an Oscilloscope. And the only person I know who has one here is Elmor.

What i really want to see is someone who can test overshoot on all of these boards, with a scope, and Loadline set to 0 mOhms (maximum loadline calibration), at both low and high overclocks, going from idle to heavy load (AVX Prime95, etc) back to idle.

That would be a wonderful test.
Asus XI Maximus Hero vs Extreme, vs MSI Aorus Master vs Aorus Xtreme (with those super efficient VRM's) vs MSI Godlike vs Asrock whatever.
@elmor I would gladly pay someone a nice $50 if they did something like this (obviously they would have to have access to all of the boards).

I want to see if a 0 mOhms loadline is actually doable without huge spikes.
The IR 35201 says its supposed to handle transient spikes but no where does it mention what will happen if a 0 mOhm loadline is used...

https://www.infineon.com/dgdl/Infin...N.pdf?fileId=5546d462576f347501579c95d19772b5


----------



## AlphaC

moorhen2 said:


> I have the Extreme now, as well as the Hero, VRM's didn't get above 43c at 1.235Vv vcore for 5.1ghz overclock stressed for over an hour with the Extreme, that's not using FPU/AVX.


Hard to take this seriously since nobody requires a $600 Maximus _Extreme_ for that kind of load. Why would anyone expect anything less than excellent performance from a Maximus XI Extreme even without airflow, especially on non-AVX workloads? It has ten 60A powerstages (rated at 1.2V), even if they aren't doubled that's at least 25% stronger than a Hero with eight 50A powerstages (rated at 1V) by virtue of more powerstages. For $600 though ASUS could have at least put Thunderbolt and 10Gbps LAN (they have a 5Gbps) as it is a 4 DIMM board. The ASUS XG-C100C 10G adapter and Aquantia AQtion are less than $100 so I don't understand the rationale there.

If you don't want to go nuts with Prime95 AVX2, at least use a real workload such as Blender , OpenSSL, FFMPEG , or x264. What lasts in AIDA64 isn't stable for sustained BOINC (LHC uses AVX and so does Asteroids) or any AVX heavy load such as Blender , that's for sure. The Linux kernel and glibc can both make use of AVX instructions. Can you even pass XTU with an only AIDA64 stable CPU?

This isn't even including virtualized OS workloads that really hammer the CPU due to the Spectre/Meltdown patches.

The Apex could very well be the best ASUS board on Z390 as the Gene has to contend with the mATX size restraints as far as non power delivery portions of the board such as networking, connectivity (as far as M.2 this is achieved through DIMM.2), audio, and expandability. If you luck out and get a STRIX Z390-E with the 50A SiC639 powerstages, I'm pretty sure it would do sufficiently well with case airflow (doubt it without airflow as shown by multiple sites) but most people are better off getting a Hero if loyal to ASUS and the Gene/Apex aren't available at reasonable prices. The reason is the Hero has the debug LED and clear CMOS features as well as a better VRM heatsink with a heatpipe, better inductors, and FP 10K hour capacitors.

-----------------

https://www.hardocp.com/article/2018/12/06/msi_meg_z390_ace_motherboard_review/7


> When it comes to overclocking, new motherboards and CPUs tend to have an inherent learning curve. That said, I was using the same Core i5 8600K I’ve used for awhile and this motherboard and chipset behaved exactly as it always has with all the motherboards we’ve used with it. The only thing that really changes from one motherboard to the next is the amount of CPU voltage used in most cases. In this instance, 1.25v was used although it shows 1.152v in CPU-Z during testing. The system’s VRM cooling seemed to perform well with temperatures that never exceeded 134F (~57°C) or so with a standard 140mm case fan blowing across the VRMs.
> ...
> Overclocking with the 9900K on the MEG Z390 ACE was pusing some wattage through this board's VRM configuration. CPU Package Power was ~160 watts under Prime95 load. Our VRMs were getting to 150F/65C with the surfaces of our VRM heatsinks getting to 111F/44C. Considering what we were doing with the 9900K at 5.14GHz under a full Prime95 load, I felt like the MEG Z390 ACE was handling itself very well in terms of cooling. This is not cool, but it is far from "HOT" in the world of aq high end motherboard with 8-Core CPUs running full-tilt. That said, if you are going to do this as well, you will want to have some airflow down across the VRMs on this motherboard...as you should with any motherboard pulling this kind of load
> ...
> *Bottom Line*
> 
> 
> The MSI MEG Z390 ACE Motherboard proved to be a valuable asset during our Core i9-9900K testing. We have tested several other Z390 motherboards since then, and I have not found one that would overclock the 9900K higher than it would, so that is certainly saying something.


I found a typo in the HardOCP article. I'm not sure if Dan tested it with an i5 and then Kyle tested with i9.


-------------------

Z390-A review , 12 hour Prime95 = 66°C at stock clocks with an AIO
https://www.profesionalreview.com/2018/12/06/asus-prime-z390-a-review/

Taichi Ultimate https://www.overclockers.ua/motherboard/asrock-z390-taichi-ultimate/all/


> Considering the high voltage, the general nature of the complex load and the degree of its duration, it was here that I carefully measured the temperature of various sections of the board, the top of the product warmed up the most, which is not surprising, recalling the high concentration of elements in that sector. 83 ° C - the highest mark that I managed to fix. At the same time, the upper part of the radiators connected together with a tube heated up no more than up to 46 ° C. Ignoring bursts of consumption, borders can be delineated as 48 and 338 watts.


----------



## moorhen2

^^^^^^^

Blah blah blah. Something like ####head springs to mind son. Nothing worse than a yank with a big I am syndrome.


----------



## Falkentyne

Anyone want to get me one of these so I can do some 0 mOhm loadline overshoot testing ?


----------



## Wihglah

Falkentyne said:


> Anyone want to get me one of these so I can do some 0 mOhm loadline overshoot testing ?




To make it worth it, you would need to get several motherboards for comparison...


----------



## Robbært

Falkentyne said:


> Anyone want to get me one of these so I can do some 0 mOhm loadline overshoot testing ?


ebay full of cheap oscilloscopes
put a probe on 10x with this one.


----------



## Falkentyne

Those things are complete garbage.


----------



## Robbært

Falkentyne said:


> Those things are complete garbage.


for 400khz signal?
i'm not sure if you know what you talking about.


----------



## SpeedyIV

If you are serious, you can usually rent test equipment like that quite reasonably. Local availability will depend on where you live. In my work, we rent expensive video calibration gear and OTDRs (for optical cable certification). 

Here are a few links. You can rent that Fluke for $140 for 2 days, $210 for a full week.

https://www.pmc-rentals.com/products/fluke-scopemeter-190-102/

https://jmtest.com/i/fluke-190-scopemeter-series-ii/

http://www.transcat.com/fluke-190-204-s-for-rent


----------



## Falkentyne

SpeedyIV said:


> If you are serious, you can usually rent test equipment like that quite reasonably. Local availability will depend on where you live. In my work, we rent expensive video calibration gear and OTDRs (for optical cable certification).
> 
> Here are a few links. You can rent that Fluke for $140 for 2 days, $210 for a full week.
> 
> https://www.pmc-rentals.com/products/fluke-scopemeter-190-102/
> 
> https://jmtest.com/i/fluke-190-scopemeter-series-ii/
> 
> http://www.transcat.com/fluke-190-204-s-for-rent


Wow this is handy to know. Useful for people that know what they're doing to test but don't have $3,000 burning a hole in their pocket!
(of course buying is always better...but this Fluke costs more than a RTX Titan !)


----------



## elmor

Falkentyne said:


> So the Maximus XI Extreme is going to be the one with the overengineered VRMs and power delivery and stuff?
> Does anyone even have this board yet?
> 
> I assume this competes with the MSI Godlike and Gigabyte Aorus Xtreme with all those phases and VRM's.
> But I still want to see some oscilloscope overshoot tests with loadline calibration at the highest level (0 mOhms). Why hasn't anyone done this?
> 
> @elmor can you do this for us?





Falkentyne said:


> The VRM's aren't dodgy at all.
> It's just that they were advertised as being one thing while being lower grade (aka marketing spin).
> Doesn't mean that they can't possibly push a 9900K to 5.5 ghz on chilled water+delid+LM or have excellent voltage regulation or not....such things can only be tested with an Oscilloscope. And the only person I know who has one here is Elmor.
> 
> What i really want to see is someone who can test overshoot on all of these boards, with a scope, and Loadline set to 0 mOhms (maximum loadline calibration), at both low and high overclocks, going from idle to heavy load (AVX Prime95, etc) back to idle.
> 
> That would be a wonderful test.
> Asus XI Maximus Hero vs Extreme, vs MSI Aorus Master vs Aorus Xtreme (with those super efficient VRM's) vs MSI Godlike vs Asrock whatever.
> 
> @elmor I would gladly pay someone a nice $50 if they did something like this (obviously they would have to have access to all of the boards).
> 
> I want to see if a 0 mOhms loadline is actually doable without huge spikes.
> The IR 35201 says its supposed to handle transient spikes but no where does it mention what will happen if a 0 mOhm loadline is used...
> 
> https://www.infineon.com/dgdl/Infin...N.pdf?fileId=5546d462576f347501579c95d19772b5



Currently I'm not in a position to do anything like this, perhaps in 1-2 months. I also doubt any vendor would agree to sample products for this kind of testing.


----------



## Robostyle

Falkentyne said:


> IA AC=180 (18 on Asus---do NOT enter a value of 180 on Asus--EVER) for 1.8 mOhms
> IA DC=1 (0.01 on Asus) for 0.01 mOhms


BTW, here what I've got:

M10H wifi description defines values like this >> "100=1.00 mOhm, 1255=12.55 mOhm, range is 0-6249, 0 is default". 

However, it doesn't actually recognize either of that values proposed, instead, one must type the actual mOhm value in AC/DC loadline boxes. 
I.e., It is unpossible to enter something like 100 or 1255 in - the maximum value I was able to type in loadline boxes were exactly 62.49. 
So, IMHO, for 1.8 mOhm you should type "1.8", when tweaking asus m/b. 

So, Asus makes even more confusion, I might say.....


----------



## Falkentyne

Robostyle said:


> BTW, here what I've got:
> 
> M10H wifi description defines values like this >> "100=1.00 mOhm, 1255=12.55 mOhm, range is 0-6249, 0 is default".
> 
> However, it doesn't actually recognize either of that values proposed, instead, one must type the actual mOhm value in AC/DC loadline boxes.
> I.e., It is unpossible to enter something like 100 or 1255 in - the maximum value I was able to type in loadline boxes were exactly 62.49.
> So, IMHO, for 1.8 mOhm you should type "1.8", when tweaking asus m/b.
> 
> So, Asus makes even more confusion, I might say.....


Ok so I was wrong about the Asus values because my brain doesn't work. You're 100% correct you enter the raw values for asus (0.01 to 62.49).
I actually knew this before but had forgotten. Clearly I don't own an Asus uefi board.

those help values you got are from AMI. those are the reference values they give in their base bios build
Gigabyte and MSI uses those. Asus uses the exact mOhm value (without telling you).


----------



## Robostyle

ATM, I have enough info regarding my rig, and how does it reacts on both ac/dc loadlines being changed. Though, I still don't understand exactly the nature of those, or "what are they exactly, and why they're being measured in Ohms". 

So far, AC loadline affected only overall voltage being supplied, while DC loadline changes did nothing at all. 
As an example: setup, adaptive 1.3V, no offsets, 4.5GHz allcore (for excessed stability), LLC set to default (on auto, m/b keeps pushing LLC6 or 7, especially at high clocks - AI Suite shows me that LLC2 is being enabled after boot right now) 
100% load was provided by prime95 (I've made "short bursts" for 15-30 seconds, just in order to see voltage under load)

AC - 2.00 mOhms load ~1.4V
DC - 2.00 mOhms total: idle 1.45-1.5V

AC - 2.00 mOhms load ~1.4V
DC - 0.01 mOhms total: idle 1.45-1.5V

AC - 0.01 mOhms load 1.2V
DC - 2.00 mOhms total: idle 1.28V

AC - 0.01 mOhms load 1.2V
DC - 0.01 mOhms total: idle 1.26-1.28V

AC - 0.50 mOhms load 1.29V
DC - 1.00 mOhms total: idle 1.3-1.34V


----------



## Falkentyne

Robostyle said:


> ATM, I have enough info regarding my rig, and how does it reacts on both ac/dc loadlines being changed. Though, I still don't understand exactly the nature of those, or "what are they exactly, and why they're being measured in Ohms".
> 
> So far, AC loadline affected only overall voltage being supplied, while DC loadline changes did nothing at all.
> As an example: setup, adaptive 1.3V, no offsets, 4.5GHz allcore (for excessed stability), LLC set to default (on auto, m/b keeps pushing LLC6 or 7, especially at high clocks - AI Suite shows me that LLC2 is being enabled after boot right now)
> 100% load was provided by prime95 (I've made "short bursts" for 15-30 seconds, just in order to see voltage under load)
> 
> AC - 2.00 mOhms load ~1.4V
> DC - 2.00 mOhms total: idle 1.45-1.5V
> 
> AC - 2.00 mOhms load ~1.4V
> DC - 0.01 mOhms total: idle 1.45-1.5V
> 
> AC - 0.01 mOhms load 1.2V
> DC - 2.00 mOhms total: idle 1.28V
> 
> AC - 0.01 mOhms load 1.2V
> DC - 0.01 mOhms total: idle 1.26-1.28V
> 
> AC - 0.50 mOhms load 1.29V
> DC - 1.00 mOhms total: idle 1.3-1.34V


These tests are similar to what I've seen.
AC loadline is indeed operating voltages (how much they are boosted up from "default VID".
DC loadline is supposed to be power consumption/reporting.

What I found about DC loadline is that increasing DC loadline drops the VID range makng it 'droop' more.
At least when I tested it. However I only tested it on manual voltages (static) as I didn't want the VID influencing my vcore.
I did test this on my laptop, where the IA AC DC settings are -linked- to VID AND influence override voltages also (there is no vcore sensor at all).
On my laptop, if IA AC loadline is kept at 1 (0.01 mOhms), raising DC loadline makes the load voltage droop more the higher the DC value is. It also actually makes the operating voltage rise a little as well, just a LOT less than AC does. But the 'droop is actually fake (long story); for example:

i tested iA AC loadline of 1 and DC loadline of 680. with 1.178v static voltage entered. VID at idle was 1.20v as expected.

at full load, the VID dropped by 300mv (but no way in hell that was real, as my power draw and temps were higher than default)--i estimated the CPU was getting about 1.24v at full load.

I'll mess around with this on my Z390 in a bit.


btw to answer your question, it's in mOhms because it has to match the "Default" loadline calibration slope so that the CPU Vcore matches the CPU VID. That's why.
It's basically Intel pre-programmed Loadline calibration with a 1.60 (8 core) or 2.10 (6 core) loadline.

When you use manual voltages, you change the loadline mOhms amount only by changing Loadline Calibration (higher levels of LLC reduce the mOhms)
When you change IA AC/IA DC, you change the VID response in mOhms (basically performing both operating voltage boost and loadline on the VID).

Changing loadline calibration when using adaptive voltages changes the loadline on the vcore itself, which will then cause the vcore and VID to read differently.

The only issue with your results is, changing DC loadline to 0.01 is supposed to stop the VID from drooping.
The problem is the VCORE may still droop---I did not test this yet. I don't know if the VCORE follows the reference vdroop resistance of 1.60 mOhms when IA DC is set to 0.01, or if it follows a 0 mOhm loadline but according to your results, it doesn't. That means setting IA DC to 1 is unlinking the VIDs lack of vdroop to the vcore's vdroop. I don't know if this is intended.

In your tests, did you look at BOTH the VID and VCORE?
I think you need to double check that.


----------



## tostitobandito

What's the advantage of increasing AC loadline over just adding a vcore voltage offset or increasing vcore voltage? Seems like it essentially does the same thing, increasing both idle and load voltages by comparable amounts.


----------



## Falkentyne

Robostyle said:


> ATM, I have enough info regarding my rig, and how does it reacts on both ac/dc loadlines being changed. Though, I still don't understand exactly the nature of those, or "what are they exactly, and why they're being measured in Ohms".
> 
> So far, AC loadline affected only overall voltage being supplied, while DC loadline changes did nothing at all.
> As an example: setup, adaptive 1.3V, no offsets, 4.5GHz allcore (for excessed stability), LLC set to default (on auto, m/b keeps pushing LLC6 or 7, especially at high clocks - AI Suite shows me that LLC2 is being enabled after boot right now)
> 100% load was provided by prime95 (I've made "short bursts" for 15-30 seconds, just in order to see voltage under load)
> 
> AC - 2.00 mOhms load ~1.4V
> DC - 2.00 mOhms total: idle 1.45-1.5V
> 
> AC - 2.00 mOhms load ~1.4V
> DC - 0.01 mOhms total: idle 1.45-1.5V
> 
> AC - 0.01 mOhms load 1.2V
> DC - 2.00 mOhms total: idle 1.28V
> 
> AC - 0.01 mOhms load 1.2V
> DC - 0.01 mOhms total: idle 1.26-1.28V
> 
> AC - 0.50 mOhms load 1.29V
> DC - 1.00 mOhms total: idle 1.3-1.34V


*Edit* finished a battery of tests and my conclusions were right. I took 12 screenshots but i found there's no point in posting them unless you really want them.
IA AC loadline is the operating voltage (boosted up in mOhms).
IA DC loadline is the *VDROOP* measurement of the operating voltage and power measurement DC=0.01 mOhms=no droop. DC=5 mOhms= tons of droop (100 amps load * 5 mOhms= 500mv droop).

The problem is, the CPU VCORE's own droop is based on the reference value, which is stored in "Loadline Calibration". Auto, Standard and Normal (when using adaptive voltage) all seem to use the exact same vdroop (1.60 mOhms) and totally IGNORES the DC loadline value completely.

With IA AC loadline and IA DC loadline both set to 160, the CPU Vcore completely followed the VID at both idle and load.
With other combinations of settings, the IA AC setting is the only one that affected the CPU vcore.
The DC setting didn't affect the vdroop on the core at all, *ONLY* on the VID.
It seems the "loadline calibration" setting is hardwired to the vcore's vdroop, rather than the DC setting. I don't know if this is intentional or a bug. (i tested loadline on Auto, Standard and Normal, with DC loadline on both 1 and 160. No differences).

First 2 pictures are IA AC both at 160 (yes I have 4 cores disabled).
Second 2 pictures are IA at 160 and DC at 1. You can see how the vcore droops now but the VID doesn't.

Only way to stop the vcore from dropping is to use loadline calibration.

DC Loadline does seem to have some sort of influence over reported power draw, however....


----------



## Cleander

Hello guys..... after spending few days to try read 350 pages and try to memorize as many info as i can i stil try to figure out if the Asus Formula XI is wort it for 9900k oc at 5.0ghz if posible.
Atm i own a Formula X which to be honest i like it more for the looks and supports 9900k.
I made my build as an Asus theme and go fot gigabyte ruins everything to me......

So is it better to keep the old Formula X or Move to Formula XI ?
Or are they both that bad for 9900k that i should get Gene or Extreme ?

Thanks a lot in advance 😕


----------



## Wihglah

Cleander said:


> Hello guys..... after spending few days to try read 350 pages and try to memorize as many info as i can i stil try to figure out if the Asus Formula XI is wort it for 9900k oc at 5.0ghz if posible.
> Atm i own a Formula X which to be honest i like it more for the looks and supports 9900k.
> I made my build as an Asus theme and go fot gigabyte ruins everything to me......
> 
> So is it better to keep the old Formula X or Move to Formula XI ?
> Or are they both that bad for 9900k that i should get Gene or Extreme ?
> 
> Thanks a lot in advance 😕



Pretty sure you will get 5Ghz on your Formula X - assuming the CPU isn't a lemon.


----------



## Robostyle

Yup, didn't payed much attention to VID, simply was checking if IA loadlines setting could help me flatten vcore slope a little, while adaptive mode on the line - though, as You figured aswell, it doesn't work that way. 
Actually, I still remember I've had voltage vdroop like *0.25v!!*, going from 1.5V at idle down to 1.26V under load - it happend just after I started experimenting - however, I'm not sure what loadline values I've set.




Cleander said:


> Hello guys..... after spending few days to try read 350 pages and try to memorize as many info as i can i stil try to figure out if the Asus Formula XI is wort it for 9900k oc at 5.0ghz if posible.
> Atm i own a Formula X which to be honest i like it more for the looks and supports 9900k.
> I made my build as an Asus theme and go fot gigabyte ruins everything to me......
> 
> So is it better to keep the old Formula X or Move to Formula XI ?
> Or are they both that bad for 9900k that i should get Gene or Extreme ?
> 
> Thanks a lot in advance 😕


Well, I'm not a guru (so correct me if I'm wrong), but AFAIK M10F has better VRM shcematics than M11F: true 4 phases doubled to 8 on M10F vs 8 cheap/fake on M11F, both have 60A mosfets (IDK if vishay is worse/better than IR mosfets, for purpose of running 9900K though, sorry). So, as I dig this stuff, in terms of temps, M10F and M11F are equal; in terms of power delivery M10F should be a little bit better.


----------



## GeneO

Falkentyne said:


> The only issue with your results is, changing DC loadline to 0.01 is supposed to stop the VID from drooping.



How can a VID droop? Core voltage droops with load because it is characteristic of the electronic circuit. VID is not a real voltage - it is what the processor calculates the voltage should be set to. How can it droop? I don't understand.


----------



## Falkentyne

GeneO said:


> How can a VID droop? Core voltage droops with load because it is characteristic of the electronic circuit. VID is not a real voltage - it is what the processor calculates the voltage should be set to. How can it droop? I don't understand.


It's just a term. There's no reason to be politically correct about it.

DC loadline affects vdroop on the VID the same way that loadline calibration affects vdroop on the vcore itself, except DC loadline is set by mOhms, while LLC is set by "levels" (which are a certain amount of mOhms too). With 0 mOhm loadline being the highest level (no vdroop).

The "Issue" is that, on adaptive voltage, the cpu vcore doesn't respond to the DC loadline dropping (or not dropping, at 0.01 mOhms) the VID. I'm not sure if it is supposed to or if there is a setting where you relegate it to the vcore. You would THINK the "Auto" setting for Loadline Calibration would pass this to "DC Loadline" but it doesn't. At least not on the Aorus Master. Auto, Standard and Normal all seem to do the same thing. (set reference loadline value of 1.6 mOhms for 8 cores). It *DOES* respond to the AC loadline value RAISING the VID, however!


----------



## scracy

Sin0822 said:


> Yea i said most, that motherboard has a very good VRM


https://www.overclock.net/forum/6-i...8955-z370-z390-vrm-discussion-thread-279.html



Cleander said:


> Hello guys..... after spending few days to try read 350 pages and try to memorize as many info as i can i stil try to figure out if the Asus Formula XI is wort it for 9900k oc at 5.0ghz if posible.
> Atm i own a Formula X which to be honest i like it more for the looks and supports 9900k.
> I made my build as an Asus theme and go fot gigabyte ruins everything to me......
> 
> So is it better to keep the old Formula X or Move to Formula XI ?
> Or are they both that bad for 9900k that i should get Gene or Extreme ?
> 
> Thanks a lot in advance 😕


Based on what Sin0822 has said you would be better off sticking with the Maximus X Formula from a VRM point of view :thumb:


----------



## elmor

Cleander said:


> Hello guys..... after spending few days to try read 350 pages and try to memorize as many info as i can i stil try to figure out if the Asus Formula XI is wort it for 9900k oc at 5.0ghz if posible.
> Atm i own a Formula X which to be honest i like it more for the looks and supports 9900k.
> I made my build as an Asus theme and go fot gigabyte ruins everything to me......
> 
> So is it better to keep the old Formula X or Move to Formula XI ?
> Or are they both that bad for 9900k that i should get Gene or Extreme ?
> 
> Thanks a lot in advance 😕





Robostyle said:


> Yup, didn't payed much attention to VID, simply was checking if IA loadlines setting could help me flatten vcore slope a little, while adaptive mode on the line - though, as You figured aswell, it doesn't work that way.
> Actually, I still remember I've had voltage vdroop like *0.25v!!*, going from 1.5V at idle down to 1.26V under load - it happend just after I started experimenting - however, I'm not sure what loadline values I've set.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Well, I'm not a guru (so correct me if I'm wrong), but AFAIK M10F has better VRM shcematics than M11F: true 4 phases doubled to 8 on M10F vs 8 cheap/fake on M11F, both have 60A mosfets (IDK if vishay is worse/better than IR mosfets, for purpose of running 9900K though, sorry). So, as I dig this stuff, in terms of temps, M10F and M11F are equal; in terms of power delivery M10F should be a little bit better.





scracy said:


> https://www.overclock.net/forum/6-i...8955-z370-z390-vrm-discussion-thread-279.html
> 
> 
> 
> Based on what Sin0822 has said you would be better off sticking with the Maximus X Formula from a VRM point of view :thumb:



Maximus XI Formula has a much better VRM. Theoretically you should get better overclocks on M11F, but I doubt you'll see large gains in most cases. Primarily you should see much lower VRM temperatures, if you care about that. Since you already have the M10F, why don't you try out the 9900K there first and if the temperatures are too high then you can consider upgrading? Or watercool the VRM, as intended on that board.


----------



## Robostyle

elmor said:


> Maximus XI Formula has a much better VRM. Theoretically you should get better overclocks on M11F, but I doubt you'll see large gains in most cases. Primarily you should see much lower VRM temperatures, if you care about that. Since you already have the M10F, why don't you try out the 9900K there first and if the temperatures are too high then you can consider upgrading? Or watercool the VRM, as intended on that board.


Could you please tell why M11F's vrm is considered as much better?


----------



## jelome1989

Falkentyne said:


> An old and interesting and still relevant post about board layers and why they are important:
> 
> https://www.quora.com/What-is-an-8-layer-PCB-good-for-that-a-4-layer-PCB-cant-do


Thanks for the link, now I'm curious how many layers Maximus XI boards have. Tried searching but to no avail.


----------



## Cleander

Wow thanks a lot for your replys 😮
Well in both cases M10F or M11F i plan to custom loop anyway.
I prefer the looks on the M10F but i also like some features on M11F like the 2 hidden m.2 slots as i plan 970 evo 250gb and 970 evo 1tb to have as less wiring as posible.
The system will also have 1 X 2080ti 
So about lanes of using 1 gpu and 2 X m.2 no problem for both ?


----------



## NekoCatMao

*my z390 taichi vrm at 110° cause CPU throttling*

My z390 taichi vrm at 110° cause CPU throttling.

I did a stree test on my z390 taichi use a 1.29V 9700K run p95 newest version FFT 8K about total 24 min(edit: Sorry, it's 22 min), with and without a electric fan to cool the vrm.

Here is my setup:
https://www.overclock.net/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=237052&thumb=1
(Notice the VRM area is hang in the air)

Here is the data recorded.
https://www.overclock.net/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=237050&thumb=1

I don't think it's normal, I bought it from China, maybe a diffrent version?


----------



## Falkentyne

NekoCatMao said:


> My z390 taichi vrm at 110° cause CPU throttling.
> 
> I did a stree test on my z390 taichi use a 1.29V 9700K run p95 newest version FFT 8K about total 24 min(edit: Sorry, it's 22 min), with and without a electric fan to cool the vrm.
> 
> Here is my setup:
> https://www.overclock.net/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=237052&thumb=1
> (Notice the VRM area is hang in the air)
> 
> Here is the data recorded.
> https://www.overclock.net/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=237050&thumb=1
> 
> I don't think it's normal, I bought it from China, maybe a diffrent version?


It's 100% normal.
You are using the MOST stressful test on the planet!!
You're using Fused multiply and add small FFT's! That's even WORSE than AVX! FMA3 is a subset (or superset) of AVX2. You were probably pulling over 200 amps from those vrm's.

Open local.txt and add the lines CPUSupportsAVX=0 and CPUSupportsFMA3=0 then do another small FFT test and compare the temps.


----------



## NekoCatMao

Falkentyne said:


> It's 100% normal.
> You are using the MOST stressful test on the planet!!
> You're using Fused multiply and add small FFT's! That's even WORSE than AVX! FMA3 is a subset (or superset) of AVX2. You were probably pulling over 200 amps from those vrm's.
> 
> Open local.txt and add the lines CPUSupportsAVX=0 and CPUSupportsFMA3=0 then do another small FFT test and compare the temps.


Thanks.
I tried, but the power consumption also reduced significantly. I thought it would stay at 250W and vrm gets cooler.
So it is normal a 250W rating MB (From AlphaC's Z390 positioning chart) throttle at 250W at no direct airflow condition?


----------



## Robbært

NekoCatMao said:


> Thanks.
> I tried, but the power consumption also reduced significantly. I thought it would stay at 250W and vrm gets cooler.
> So it is normal a 250W rating MB (From AlphaC's Z390 positioning chart) throttle at 250W at no direct airflow condition?


example of Asus XI Hero 114C VRM and throttle
normal or not you should be fine with everyday/gaming usage without extra cooling.


----------



## scracy

Cleander said:


> Wow thanks a lot for your replys 😮
> Well in both cases M10F or M11F i plan to custom loop anyway.
> I prefer the looks on the M10F but i also like some features on M11F like the 2 hidden m.2 slots as i plan 970 evo 250gb and 970 evo 1tb to have as less wiring as posible.
> The system will also have 1 X 2080ti
> So about lanes of using 1 gpu and 2 X m.2 no problem for both ?


Like you I run a custom loop (see below) either Maximus X or XI are well suited for that purpose. You wont have any issue with lanes on either board with 2x M.2 and 2080Ti as the lanes for the GPU come from the CPU and the lanes for M.2 are from the PCH


----------



## AlphaC

@ NekoCatMao


Well other recent testing done with Z390 Taichi has shown otherwise. The ~250W figure is derived from 10 phases at the peak efficiency up to 20-25A per 40A TI NexFET and is meant more of a rough guideline of what it can handle. If you want to be super careful about that number, I was a bit lax in giving the distinction to the ROG Hero since that dips below 90% efficiency at 25A each (i.e. 200A for 8 of them) but it is using powerstage rather than a powerblock.















http://www.hwbattle.com/bbs/board.php?bo_table=hottopic&wr_id=10120

https://www.overclockers.ua/motherboard/asrock-z390-taichi-ultimate/all/


> Considering the high voltage, the general nature of the complex load and the degree of its duration, it was here that I carefully measured the temperature of various sections of the board, the top of the product warmed up the most, which is not surprising, recalling the high concentration of elements in that sector. 83 ° C - the highest mark that I managed to fix. At the same time, the upper part of the radiators connected together with a tube heated up no more than up to 46 ° C. Ignoring bursts of consumption, borders can be delineated as 48 and 338 watts.


Maybe it has to do with BIOS version. Version 1.60 dated 2018/11/21 lists: 1.Update Instant Flash module , 2.Update the Microcode , 3.Improve system performance

That's in addition to testing done from hardware info NL , TPU, Tweaktown, hardwareunboxed (youtube _6lAE3PgWoRc_ / techspot) , tech yes city, wccftech and other places. That's not including results from the Phantom Gaming 9 which appears to be the same PCB (see review by kitguru for example).

If it's truly running at 110°C I'd look into adjusting the settings such that it is below ~85°C. As it uses 12K hour @ 105°C FP capacitors it should still last longer than a STRIX with 5K Apaq capacitors for example (Hero uses 10K hour rated FP cap) if lowered to what reviewers experienced. The IR3598 doubler and CSD87350 powerblock both have recommended operating temperature under 125°C.

If anything maybe check your VRM heatsink contact if it occurs with a load such as Blender or AVX2-based x265.


----------



## KedarWolf

My Maximus X Formula with Prime95 no AVX Offset, no AVX enabled in Prime95 Small FFT's maxes out about 200W in CPU Power and CPU Package Power in HWInfo and this is with the 9900k at 1.38v. I get 5GHZ CPU, 4.6GHZ cache, 4100MHZ RAM with my Maximus X Formula. I get about 175W with RealBench.

Would it be a huge improvement and could I overclock better with say a Gigabyte Master motherboard?


----------



## DarknightOCR

I've read many posts here, but I still have doubts about 2 or 3 boards.

I have already seen that the maximus XI Hero seems to have only 4 phases and not 8 reals.
So far so good, as long as you do the job due.

Now you doubt, for a daily use of a 9900K to 5Ghz (or more if the cpu gives), a StriX -F Z390 (I do not need BT nor Strix-E wifi)
Does the Strix hold up well? (even if you have to put the fan in the VRMs)
Strix-F uses the same VRMs as Strix-E

Or you will need to pay a lot more for a Hero, or Asrock Taichi
I did not want gigabyte, I do not like Bios, but it might be an option since Master is at the price level of Hero and Taichi
But the idea was even the Strix


----------



## BurritoJustice

I'm hovering over a Gigabyte Z390 Aorus Xtreme in my cart right now, the only thing that I am reserved about is the upcoming release of the "Waterforce" variant. Does anyone know if there are any changes other than the obvious waterblock? The VRM temps seem insanely low which seems to make the waterblock redundant, but if there are other features like flow sensors or more IO then I will consider waiting. Any word on availability or is it just the short blurb in the Xtreme product release?

Going into my loop of delidded 9900K, 760mm of radiator, so cooling should be sorted for the CPU at least.

@GBT-MatthewH?


----------



## B3MMi

DarknightOCR said:


> I've read many posts here, but I still have doubts about 2 or 3 boards.
> 
> I have already seen that the maximus XI Hero seems to have only 4 phases and not 8 reals.
> So far so good, as long as you do the job due.
> 
> Now you doubt, for a daily use of a 9900K to 5Ghz (or more if the cpu gives), a StriX -F Z390 (I do not need BT nor Strix-E wifi)
> Does the Strix hold up well? (even if you have to put the fan in the VRMs)
> Strix-F uses the same VRMs as Strix-E
> 
> Or you will need to pay a lot more for a Hero, or Asrock Taichi
> I did not want gigabyte, I do not like Bios, but it might be an option since Master is at the price level of Hero and Taichi
> But the idea was even the Strix


Strix Z390-E has a fan for the VRM. That might come in handy with 9900K.


----------



## elmor

Robostyle said:


> Could you please tell why M11F's vrm is considered as much better?


Higher efficiency and better transient response.


----------



## yarly

so I got my 9900k today and has been testing 5ghz overclock on a z370 aorus gaming 7 motherboard, I ran prime95 for 20 min on that oc and those are the temps, so the question is do I need to get a z390?


----------



## Falkentyne

yarly said:


> so I got my 9900k today and has been testing 5ghz overclock on a z370 aorus gaming 7 motherboard, I ran prime95 for 20 min on that oc and those are the temps, so the question is do I need to get a z390?


Well that's a nice looking bug you seem to have there!


----------



## yarly

yea idk why it keeps bugging out like that after 10 min of prime but before it bugged out its still pretty high


----------



## yarly

here is the temps with a 3 min run without it being bug


----------



## tostitobandito

yarly said:


> here is the temps with a 3 min run without it being bug


Anything sub-80C in Prime is amazing. What is your cooling setup?


----------



## yarly

tostitobandito said:


> Anything sub-80C in Prime is amazing. What is your cooling setup?


im just using the alphacool eisbaer 420 aio also idk if those temps reading are accurate, im gonna have to get a z390 board


----------



## Hothicron

So what's the word on the Z390 PRIME mobo? I'm thinking of a 9700k build which is likely gonna be my last gaming rig for a long time and I won't be overclocking it so prevent breaking it for longevity reasons. Will the VRMs hold up ok well air cooled setup in a modified Phanteks Evolv atx with upgraded 140mm fans?


----------



## Jspinks020

Well that's the More cores thing too..that could use more in the VRM department. 4-8 phase could still run what you are talking about. And Nice chokes and SMDs.


----------



## eric98k

ASUS WS Z390 PRO teardown: http://www.coolpc.com.tw/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=254286

Power: 2x 8-pin EPS 12V, 1x 6-pin PCIe power









VRM: 8+2, PWM ASP1400CTB (4+2), NCP302045 DrMOS (45A), R40 inductors, FP10K caps

































PLX PXE8747 PCIe switch









LAN: Intel I210-AT, I219-LM

















Dual M.2 22110:









Crystal Sound:


----------



## asdkj1740

yarly said:


> so I got my 9900k today and has been testing 5ghz overclock on a z370 aorus gaming 7 motherboard, I ran prime95 for 20 min on that oc and those are the temps, so the question is do I need to get a z390?


screw the vrm heatsink tighter.
or replace the vrm thermal pad with 1.5mm thickness ones.


----------



## SpeedyIV

Robostyle said:


> Could you please tell why M11F's vrm is considered as much better?





elmor said:


> Higher efficiency and better transient response.





elmor said:


> The hardware unboxed test results are pretty much in line and paint a fair picture. At the same price point you'll have lower VRM temperatures on other boards. In terms of "stability" or VRM capability to overclock a 9900K to its limits, I've not seen any measurable difference between ASP1400 + 8xSiC639 and ASP1405 + 10xIR3555. More real world testing on the different solutions is really needed before jumping to any conclusions.


OK so the new, formerly known as "Twin 8-Phase" VRM design does not use doublers, which results in improved CPU voltage transient response. Great! But how can this design have "higher efficiency" when it is also stated that we will get "lower VRM temps on other boards"? So if the VRM runs hotter than other boards, then it has Higher Efficiency than what? Reports from multiple sources say this new VRM design performs OK, but it definitely runs hotter than competitor's designs that have 8 phases using doublers, so I am confused about what it has higher efficient than? Can you clarify this statement please?

Also, on an unrelated topic, does anyone know if Asus has stopped putting thread locker on the Max XI Hero (wifi) M.2 heat sink screws? Amazon and New Egg are full of reviews complaining about these screws being so tight and/or gooped with thread locker that they are stripping the heads out or having to flip the board over and remove the screws that hold the entire heat sink assembly on. Some have given up on ever using both M.2 slots. Lots of pictures of stripped screws. Asus support solution is to RMA the entire board. I have not read a single case where Asus just dropped a few replacement screws in the mail. They are evidently rather long and impossible to find anywhere.

Thanks!


----------



## SpeedyIV

eric98k said:


> ASUS WS Z390 PRO teardown: http://www.coolpc.com.tw/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=254286


I am getting very interested in this board, because of the PLX chip and dual LAN. Has there been analysis analysis or breakdown of the VRM on the WS Z390? 4-phase? Doublers?

Thanks!


----------



## tostitobandito

SpeedyIV said:


> OK so the new, formerly known as "Twin 8-Phase" VRM design does not use doublers, which results in improved CPU voltage transient response. Great! But how can this design have "higher efficiency" when it is also stated that we will get "lower VRM temps on other boards"? So if the VRM runs hotter than other boards, then it has Higher Efficiency than what? Reports from multiple sources say this new VRM design performs OK, but it definitely runs hotter than competitor's designs that have 8 phases using doublers, so I am confused about what it has higher efficient than? Can you clarify this statement please?



VRM temp is dependent on a lot of factors including surface area of mosfets/inductors, heatsink/pads, thermal conductivity of components, and of course the amount of power going through it which is dependent on load/voltage. The M11 should/does behave more or less like most comparable 8 phase boards when it comes to VRM temps, disregarding differences in heatsink design. Boards with more than 8 stages will have better temps because they get to divide current/heat over more surface area. So yeah, of course it's going to be hotter than a board with 10+ power stages which can spread the load that much more.

All that said, why is this a concern? If a VRM is a few degrees warmer but still well under any temperature where it might impact performance or cause damage, how is that an issue? If you absolutely need the best VRM temperatures go buy the biggest and most expensive boards which absolutely aren't the M11 Hero/Code/Formula. Otherwise, accept that there will be variances depending on the many factors I mentioned above.


----------



## Falkentyne

SpeedyIV said:


> OK so the new, formerly known as "Twin 8-Phase" VRM design does not use doublers, which results in improved CPU voltage transient response. Great! But how can this design have "higher efficiency" when it is also stated that we will get "lower VRM temps on other boards"? So if the VRM runs hotter than other boards, then it has Higher Efficiency than what? Reports from multiple sources say this new VRM design performs OK, but it definitely runs hotter than competitor's designs that have 8 phases using doublers, so I am confused about what it has higher efficient than? Can you clarify this statement please?
> 
> Also, on an unrelated topic, does anyone know if Asus has stopped putting thread locker on the Max XI Hero (wifi) M.2 heat sink screws? Amazon and New Egg are full of reviews complaining about these screws being so tight and/or gooped with thread locker that they are stripping the heads out or having to flip the board over and remove the screws that hold the entire heat sink assembly on. Some have given up on ever using both M.2 slots. Lots of pictures of stripped screws. Asus support solution is to RMA the entire board. I have not read a single case where Asus just dropped a few replacement screws in the mail. They are evidently rather long and impossible to find anywhere.
> 
> Thanks!


laptopscrews.com should have them as long as they aren't a whacky design.


----------



## eric98k

SpeedyIV said:


> I am getting very interested in this board, because of the PLX chip and dual LAN. Has there been analysis analysis or breakdown of the VRM on the WS Z390? 4-phase? Doublers?
> 
> Thanks!


No doublers on the PCB, same config as Strix E and other highend Asus Z390 line.


----------



## GBT-MatthewH

BurritoJustice said:


> I'm hovering over a Gigabyte Z390 Aorus Xtreme in my cart right now, the only thing that I am reserved about is the upcoming release of the "Waterforce" variant. Does anyone know if there are any changes other than the obvious waterblock? The VRM temps seem insanely low which seems to make the waterblock redundant, but if there are other features like flow sensors or more IO then I will consider waiting. Any word on availability or is it just the short blurb in the Xtreme product release?
> 
> Going into my loop of delidded 9900K, 760mm of radiator, so cooling should be sorted for the CPU at least.
> 
> @GBT-MatthewH?


Should be exactly the same specs - just a mono block  If the stars align its possible it could be up next week, otherwise right after the holiday break.


----------



## Robostyle

SpeedyIV said:


> OK so the new, formerly known as "Twin 8-Phase" VRM design does not use doublers, which results in improved CPU voltage transient response. Great! But how can this design have "higher efficiency" when it is also stated that we will get "lower VRM temps on other boards"? So if the VRM runs hotter than other boards, then it has Higher Efficiency than what? Reports from multiple sources say this new VRM design performs OK, but it definitely runs hotter than competitor's designs that have 8 phases using doublers, so I am confused about what it has higher efficient than? Can you clarify this statement please?
> 
> Also, on an unrelated topic, does anyone know if Asus has stopped putting thread locker on the Max XI Hero (wifi) M.2 heat sink screws? Amazon and New Egg are full of reviews complaining about these screws being so tight and/or gooped with thread locker that they are stripping the heads out or having to flip the board over and remove the screws that hold the entire heat sink assembly on. Some have given up on ever using both M.2 slots. Lots of pictures of stripped screws. Asus support solution is to RMA the entire board. I have not read a single case where Asus just dropped a few replacement screws in the mail. They are evidently rather long and impossible to find anywhere.
> 
> Thanks!


hehe, yeah.."Twin". 
As I see it - yes, new XI series have no doublers - that means they just throw 2phase on 1 signal, i.e. "fake doubled". In this case, you might get better temps in mediocre loads, but worse response and voltage stability. That's what I don't like about it. And I'm pretty sure phases with doubler perform better than "simply" doubled in terms of this "transient response", if any other parametr is the same. 
Thus, asus just throws "better effieciency" fable, justifying that simplification they've made this time.

So, they use better parts for power stages, but the quality overall is way worse -> we get just the same perfomance under 100% load. Maybe even worse, if layout is dud, so this "better parts" overheat greately, making their efficieny even lower.


----------



## AlphaC

SpeedyIV said:


> OK so the new, formerly known as "Twin 8-Phase" VRM design does not use doublers, which results in improved CPU voltage transient response. Great! But how can this design have "higher efficiency" when it is also stated that we will get "lower VRM temps on other boards"? So if the VRM runs hotter than other boards, then it has Higher Efficiency than what? Reports from multiple sources say this new VRM design performs OK, but it definitely runs hotter than competitor's designs that have 8 phases using doublers, so I am confused about what it has higher efficient than? Can you clarify this statement please?
> 
> Also, on an unrelated topic, does anyone know if Asus has stopped putting thread locker on the Max XI Hero (wifi) M.2 heat sink screws? Amazon and New Egg are full of reviews complaining about these screws being so tight and/or gooped with thread locker that they are stripping the heads out or having to flip the board over and remove the screws that hold the entire heat sink assembly on. Some have given up on ever using both M.2 slots. Lots of pictures of stripped screws. Asus support solution is to RMA the entire board. I have not read a single case where Asus just dropped a few replacement screws in the mail. They are evidently rather long and impossible to find anywhere.
> 
> Thanks!


It's supposedly higher efficiency than the 4 doubled to 8 phase design ASUS were using on Z370. The thermals are better mainly due to the heatsink which now has a heatpipe and more surface area. They're not comparing to other boards on Z390 , but the prior Z370 Maximus X Hero out of the box. As far as I can tell the output capacitors and chokes haven't changed , although the input filtering seems to have undergone revision. What might be optimal inductance and capacitance for one design may or may not be better for another design ; with the removal of doublers the inductance is essentially half if the layout is the same.

I'd be somewhat skeptical if the z370 Maximus X Formula with Infineon Optimos BSG0812ND parts (not the Vishay 60A powerblock with really long rise times on par with Low RDS(on) Powerpaks) was compared with the z390 Maximus XI Formula though , as those are really quick switching so I wouldn't think that adding doubler + driver losses would somehow drop the efficiency that severely. Maybe the BIOS is tuned for the lowest common denominator Vishay part. SiC639 is normalized to 1V for all graphs and the peak efficiency is only while under 25A per phase.

https://www.vishay.com/docs/76585/sic639.pdf

slower , old powerblock used https://www.vishay.com/docs/67547/sizf906dt.pdf

Infineon product info for parts from the Optimos 5 lineup: https://www.infineon.com/dgdl/Infin...N.pdf?fileId=5546d4624bcaebcf014c09f5f10e23f9








z370 vs z390:








There really isn't any point on dwelling on the Z370 Hero anymore, since it is inferior to the Z390 Hero in thermals even if it were better in theory, simply due to the heatsink and i9 optimizations at the software firmware level and at the PCB. It'd be interesting to see a Z370 Formula with Infineon powerblocks face off against the new Z390 Formula, but most people shouldn't waste money upgrading to the Z390 version anyway and those that have not bought a Z370 Formula are going to have to gamble on Infineon or Vishay powerblocks.

Frankly, the people that should be happiest are those that _always_ buy the midrange Z390-A board since it is no longer merely electrically on par with a competing board 50% cheaper... the change to Onsemi powerstage on the STRIX and Z390-A was probably the best decision ASUS made for Z390. TUF & STRIX z370-H / z390-H remain their worst ideas , because relying on the customer to do extra research on a STRIX board is pretty foolhardy. The only early indication that the Z390-H was terrible for the price is the absence of Auto AI OC , which is essentially ASUS' "killer feature" for Z390 much like FanXpert was a long while back.

If you_ really_ don't like what ASUS did you could always buy something else, noone is forced to buy ASUS ROG products. I really don't understand why people still fixate on the Z370 vs Z390 Hero.




Robostyle said:


> So, technically, if my only concern is voltage (stability, precise monitoring, etc.), and VRM temps, M XI series would fit me better than X?
> Sitting on Maximus X Hero, zf906 version here.


The VRM temps will surely be lower and the voltage will be more accurate due to the new measurement method. Some people will get a placebo effect from moving to the Z390 board thinking their chip requires lower voltage.


Stability depends on the implementation of the PWM tuning, since essentially you have to deal with more current per PWM phase. Obviously the Z390 board will have optimizations for i9. The loss of a doubler definitely results in faster transient relative to ZF906 which on its own is already slow.


Unless you're pushing AVX loads for actual usage or are too lazy to manually overclock instead of using the Auto AI OC I wouldn't even bother. It's too early on in the lifecycle to start switching boards unless you can find a high paying buyer for the Z370 one. It'd only be enticing if the Z390 Hero goes on sale for ~30% less in line with the competing Taichi and Aorus lineup. There's some crazies on EBay trying to get $250 for the Z370 Hero despite recent listings mostly going for ~$170, so who knows maybe there's actually people buying them.



SpeedyIV said:


> I am getting very interested in this board, because of the PLX chip and dual LAN. Has there been analysis analysis or breakdown of the VRM on the WS Z390? 4-phase? Doublers?
> 
> Thanks!


It's verbatim from the Z390-A and STRIX Z390-E it looks like , with inductors and capacitors upgraded similar to the ROG Hero.


8x Onsemi NCP302045 Powerstages
"R40" inductors likely from Vishay

FP10K capacitors (Japanese)




yarly said:


> so I got my 9900k today and has been testing 5ghz overclock on a z370 aorus gaming 7 motherboard, I ran prime95 for 20 min on that oc and those are the temps, so the question is do I need to get a z390?


 Better off with an AVX offset , better VRM heatsinking (aftermarket VRM block for example), or a monoblock.

The board itself is fine, it's the decorative and sometimes low contact heatsink that is wrecking the thermals.


----------



## Luck100

SpeedyIV said:


> Also, on an unrelated topic, does anyone know if Asus has stopped putting thread locker on the Max XI Hero (wifi) M.2 heat sink screws? Amazon and New Egg are full of reviews complaining about these screws being so tight and/or gooped with thread locker that they are stripping the heads out or having to flip the board over and remove the screws that hold the entire heat sink assembly on. Some have given up on ever using both M.2 slots. Lots of pictures of stripped screws. Asus support solution is to RMA the entire board. I have not read a single case where Asus just dropped a few replacement screws in the mail. They are evidently rather long and impossible to find anywhere.
> Thanks!


I just got my Asus Z390 Hero Wifi a few days ago (Amazon UK). It had the thread lock on the M2 screws. I just used a hairdryer to heat up the heatsink for a minute and they came out quite easily. I used a Philips #1 screw tip and no slipping or stripping.


----------



## Robostyle

AlphaC said:


> It's supposedly higher efficiency than the 4 doubled to 8 phase design ASUS were using on Z370. The thermals are better mainly due to the heatsink which now has a heatpipe and more surface area. They're not comparing to other boards on Z390 , but the prior Z370 Maximus X Hero out of the box. As far as I can tell the output capacitors and chokes haven't changed , although the input filtering seems to have undergone revision. What might be optimal inductance and capacitance for one design may or may not be better for another design ; with the removal of doublers the inductance is essentially half if the layout is the same.
> 
> I'd be somewhat skeptical if the z370 Maximus X Formula with Infineon Optimos BSG0812ND parts (not the Vishay 60A powerblock with really long rise times on par with Low RDS(on) Powerpaks) was compared with the z390 Maximus XI Formula though , as those are really quick switching so I wouldn't think that adding doubler + driver losses would somehow drop the efficiency that severely. Maybe the BIOS is tuned for the lowest common denominator Vishay part. SiC639 is normalized to 1V for all graphs and the peak efficiency is only while under 25A per phase.
> 
> https://www.vishay.com/docs/76585/sic639.pdf
> 
> slower , old powerblock used https://www.vishay.com/docs/67547/sizf906dt.pdf
> 
> Infineon product info for parts from the Optimos 5 lineup: https://www.infineon.com/dgdl/Infin...N.pdf?fileId=5546d4624bcaebcf014c09f5f10e23f9
> View attachment 237498
> 
> 
> z370 vs z390:
> View attachment 237496
> 
> 
> There really isn't any point on dwelling on the Z370 Hero anymore, since it is inferior to the Z390 Hero in thermals even if it were better in theory, simply due to the heatsink and i9 optimizations at the software firmware level and at the PCB. It'd be interesting to see a Z370 Formula with Infineon powerblocks face off against the new Z390 Formula, but most people shouldn't waste money upgrading to the Z390 version anyway and those that have not bought a Z370 Formula are going to have to gamble on Infineon or Vishay powerblocks.
> 
> Frankly, the people that should be happiest are those that _always_ buy the midrange Z390-A board since it is no longer merely electrically on par with a competing board 50% cheaper... the change to Onsemi powerstage on the STRIX and Z390-A was probably the best decision ASUS made for Z390. TUF & STRIX z370-H / z390-H remain their worst ideas , because relying on the customer to do extra research on a STRIX board is pretty foolhardy. The only early indication that the Z390-H was terrible for the price is the absence of Auto AI OC , which is essentially ASUS' "killer feature" for Z390 much like FanXpert was a long while back.
> 
> If you_ really_ don't like what ASUS did you could always buy something else, noone is forced to buy ASUS ROG products. I really don't understand why people still fixate on the Z370 vs Z390 Hero.
> 
> 
> Better off with an AVX offset , better VRM heatsinking (aftermarket VRM block for example), or a monoblock.
> 
> The board itself it's fine, it's the decorative and sometimes low contact heatsink that is wrecking the thermals.


So, technically, if my only concern is voltage (stability, precise monitorin, etc.), and VRM temps, M XI series would fit me better than X? 
Sitting on Maxmius X Hero, zf906 version here.


----------



## elmor

SpeedyIV said:


> OK so the new, formerly known as "Twin 8-Phase" VRM design does not use doublers, which results in improved CPU voltage transient response. Great! But how can this design have "higher efficiency" when it is also stated that we will get "lower VRM temps on other boards"? So if the VRM runs hotter than other boards, then it has Higher Efficiency than what? Reports from multiple sources say this new VRM design performs OK, but it definitely runs hotter than competitor's designs that have 8 phases using doublers, so I am confused about what it has higher efficient than? Can you clarify this statement please?
> 
> Also, on an unrelated topic, does anyone know if Asus has stopped putting thread locker on the Max XI Hero (wifi) M.2 heat sink screws? Amazon and New Egg are full of reviews complaining about these screws being so tight and/or gooped with thread locker that they are stripping the heads out or having to flip the board over and remove the screws that hold the entire heat sink assembly on. Some have given up on ever using both M.2 slots. Lots of pictures of stripped screws. Asus support solution is to RMA the entire board. I have not read a single case where Asus just dropped a few replacement screws in the mail. They are evidently rather long and impossible to find anywhere.
> 
> Thanks!


Lower temps on other competing Z390 boards with 6x2 doubled designs, that's for M11H/C/F. The M11 series has cooler VRMs at the same load compared to M10.



Robostyle said:


> hehe, yeah.."Twin".
> As I see it - yes, new XI series have no doublers - that means they just throw 2phase on 1 signal, i.e. "fake doubled". In this case, you might get better temps in mediocre loads, but worse response and voltage stability. That's what I don't like about it. And I'm pretty sure phases with doubler perform better than "simply" doubled in terms of this "transient response", if any other parametr is the same.
> Thus, asus just throws "better effieciency" fable, justifying that simplification they've made this time.
> 
> So, they use better parts for power stages, but the quality overall is way worse -> we get just the same perfomance under 100% load. Maybe even worse, if layout is dud, so this "better parts" overheat greately, making their efficieny even lower.


With the same components used and the only difference being using a doubler ic or connecting the power stages in parallel, you get slightly better efficiency with doublers = lower temperatures. Transient response is worse if adding doublers, how much can be debated or better investigated. The efficiency on M11 is better than on M10 due to better components. The overall quality is better than previous gen, not worse.


----------



## Robostyle

elmor said:


> With the same components used and the only difference being using a doubler ic or connecting the power stages in parallel, you get slightly better efficiency with doublers = lower temperatures. Transient response is worse if adding doublers, how much can be debated or better investigated. The efficiency on M11 is better than on M10 due to better components. The overall quality is better than previous gen, not worse.


Well, yeah, that's what i was thinking about. I still can't figure (at least, in case it's not corporation's top floor greed), why M11EX got vrm simpler than, for instance, M8EX..and I can't say infineon mosfets are that much worse/bulky/ineffective, than IR one provided for newest extreme


----------



## SpeedyIV

Thanks Elmor and AlphaC. Your explanations make sense.I have been reading reviews on Amazon and New Egg for the Xi Hero and these 2 issues come up again and again. There are a lot of people who heard about the whole "Twin 8-Phase" when its really a 4-Phase design that feel mislead and ripped off by Asus. The other recurring complaint is the M.2 heat sink screws. 

I am still a bit sensitive about the mid-stream change of VRM on the X Hero. I spent quite a bit of time trying to figure out why my X Hero wifi was not reporting a VRM temp when others did. No one from Asus would comment. The author of HWINFO first told me that there were 2 versions of the X Hero floating around. What is the point of reading and watching reviews, component breakdowns, performance metrics, etc. if the board manufacturer changes critical circuitry mid-production, to a totally different circuit topology, and then absolutely will not admit it or comment on it until a year later?!? Elmor said the Rev # on the board does not even guarantee which VRM implementation is present. That suggests that there are other undocumented differences in the same model board. This is all old news and water under the bridge, but the whole thing left a foul taste in my mouth about Asus. Now this whole "Twin 8-Phase" debacle. If you look through the descriptions and specs of the Xi Hero/Code/Formula today, there is no mention of VRM anywhere. All references have quietly been removed from the marketing materials. Shady Asus, very shady.


----------



## Robostyle

SpeedyIV said:


> Thanks Elmor and AlphaC. Your explanations make sense.I have been reading reviews on Amazon and New Egg for the Xi Hero and these 2 issues come up again and again. There are a lot of people who heard about the whole "Twin 8-Phase" when its really a 4-Phase design that feel mislead and ripped off by Asus. The other recurring complaint is the M.2 heat sink screws.
> 
> I am still a bit sensitive about the mid-stream change of VRM on the X Hero. I spent quite a bit of time trying to figure out why my X Hero wifi was not reporting a VRM temp when others did. No one from Asus would comment. The author of HWINFO first told me that there were 2 versions of the X Hero floating around. What is the point of reading and watching reviews, component breakdowns, performance metrics, etc. if the board manufacturer changes critical circuitry mid-production, to a totally different circuit topology, and then absolutely will not admit it or comment on it until a year later?!? Elmor said the Rev # on the board does not even guarantee which VRM implementation is present. That suggests that there are other undocumented differences in the same model board. This is all old news and water under the bridge, but the whole thing left a foul taste in my mouth about Asus. Now this whole "Twin 8-Phase" debacle. If you look through the descriptions and specs of the Xi Hero/Code/Formula today, there is no mention of VRM anywhere. All references have quietly been removed from the marketing materials. Shady Asus, very shady.


Yes, there is two different M10H, 
One has 4x2 formula, eight BSG0812ND mosfets, controlled by ASP1400BT
Other has similar to Code and Formula VRM, doubled (IR3599) 8x Vishay ZF906, controlled by ASP1405I

As already suggested before, it happened due to standard M10H components shortage. 
But then again, vrm diode was actively advertised as m10h feature + I don’t really sure that there’s no standard M10H with vrm sensor included. Moreover, a kind of viral marketing was also actively pushed throughout forums, regarding “all M10 series being entirely the same, exept for apex”.
Simply, my idea is that they actually planned to make entire M10 family with the same components, but then faced shortages, or simply scared of poor formula/code sales - thus deciding to change/worsen X hero vrm a little bit, removing sensor, using mosfets, intended for apex (but it was not apex though, right? ), etc.


----------



## BurritoJustice

GBT-MatthewH said:


> Should be exactly the same specs - just a mono block  If the stars align its possible it could be up next week, otherwise right after the holiday break.


Is it a CPU inclusive monoblock or just for the VRM? I don't want to reorder/complicate my runs with separate VRM blocks, but if I can have a monoblock with the CPU then it's definitely worth waiting a week, aesthetically, haha.

(I know this is the definition of a monoblock I just want to double check)


----------



## Raghar

What are differences between On Semi NCP302045, and Hero MOSFETs? Also what's reliability of each brand?
More efficient means less power consumption. When your MB eats 15 W more 24/7, you could give damn about transient response. 8-phase and properly designed output filtering should remove most problems anyway.

I have kinda suspicion that the better transient response is somehow similar to situation when user changed VRM frequency from 250 to 400kHz. Power is smoother, but VRM eats more power (and needs finned heatsinks that can handle 400-500 kHz 24/7 operation). 

With all these false phases, plastic covers, aversion to finned heatsinks, industry drove itself into a corner.


----------



## SpeedyIV

Robostyle said:


> Yes, there is two different M10H,
> One has 4x2 formula, eight BSG0812ND mosfets, controlled by ASP1400BT
> Other has similar to Code and Formula VRM, doubled (IR3599) 8x Vishay ZF906, controlled by ASP1405I
> 
> As already suggested before, it happened due to standard M10H components shortage.
> But then again, vrm diode was actively advertised as m10h feature + I don’t really sure that there’s no standard M10H with vrm sensor included. Moreover, a kind of viral marketing was also actively pushed throughout forums, regarding “all M10 series being entirely the same, exept for apex”.
> Simply, my idea is that they actually planned to make entire M10 family with the same components, but then faced shortages, or simply scared of poor formula/code sales - thus deciding to change/worsen X hero vrm a little bit, removing sensor, using mosfets, intended for apex (but it was not apex though, right? ), etc.


Yes I read Elmor's post that the X Hero VRM was changed due to a component shortage. The problem (I think) with your theory is that the X Hero original design was actually not the same as the more expensive models. The "base" Hero VRM design was the inferior version. I think they only provided the superior VRM design for an interim period due to the parts shortage. They then went back to the original, inferior, cheaper VRM design when they could. I bought mine soon after they came out, which is probably why mine has the original, inferior VRM design.

As for VRM temp reporting, the Asus web site for the board clearly had a Thermometer symbol over the VRM. They would never respond to posts about VRM temp reporting, but the Thermometer symbol over the VRM quietly disappeared - just like all references to VRM on the current XI H/C/F Z390 boards have quietly disappeared from the marketing materials and specs. So #1 they changed critical components on the X Hero mid-stream, and would not admit it. #2 they clearly marketed the X Hero as having a VRM Temp sensor when it didn't, except for those boards that had the superior VRM design used on the more expensive models. 

The whole idea of having undocumented different versions of the same exact model board invalidates the value of every review, as there is no way to know if what you got is the same thing as what the reviewer got. I understand that revisions may be necessary for a complex product like a MOBO. If a Rev results in an improvement, then once it's rolled out it should be permanent. Of course everyone who bought a pre Rev board would then be pissed that they did not get the improved version. Revs muddy the water unless they are fully identified and documented. Reviewers would need to specify which version they had. The manufacturer could roll out an improved Rev as "Enhanced" or "+" or "II" like Asus has sometimes done in the past (X99 Deluxe II). Then they can even charge more $ for it. At least the consumer would know which version they have. I am totally disappointed with how Asus would not admit that there were 2 versions of the X Hero. The "Twin 8-Phase" debacle was probably a marketing attempt to win a VRM phase count war as they felt they could not come out and say the XI H/C/F feature a 4-phase VRM. Not when their competitors have "real" 8, 10, and even 12 phase VRM designs for the same or less money! In hindsight they were right. A lot of people who bought these boards before Elmor's explanation and Buildzoid's tear down, etc. were pissed when the Twin 8-Phase is really a 4-phase accusations came out.

With the X Hero, Asus was being intentionally dishonest. They would not admit there were 2 different VRM designs. The XI H/C/F Twin 8-Phase thing was deceptive marketing and it pretty much blew up in their faces. Asus lost at least some life long customers, and the trust of many others, judging by reviews. Their customer service is famous for being worse than useless. If I do buy another Asus board, it will be with the understanding that what I will receive is a crap shoot, and if I have an issue with the board, I will not be able to depend on Asus for any kind of meaningful or useful support. It is what it is. YMMV...


----------



## elmor

Robostyle said:


> Well, yeah, that's what i was thinking about. I still can't figure (at least, in case it's not corporation's top floor greed), why M11EX got vrm simpler than, for instance, M8EX..and I can't say infineon mosfets are that much worse/bulky/ineffective, than IR one provided for newest extreme


There are quite significant efficiency gains by using power stages with integrated drives like IR3555 compared to discrete driver + FETs. And 10 power stages vs 8 driver + fet stages will be better suited for high loads, no matter the topology. Afaik, since M8E there has not been any "mainstream desktop" board with a true 8-phase design. By doing that, they had to put a second VRM controller on the board for GT power which is costly, then again it's an Extreme board ...


----------



## Nizzen

Raghar said:


> What are differences between On Semi NCP302045, and Hero MOSFETs? Also what's reliability of each brand?
> More efficient means less power consumption. When your MB eats 15 W more 24/7, you could give damn about transient response. 8-phase and properly designed output filtering should remove most problems anyway.
> 
> I have kinda suspicion that the better transient response is somehow similar to situation when user changed VRM frequency from 250 to 400kHz. Power is smoother, but VRM eats more power (and needs finned heatsinks that can handle 400-500 kHz 24/7 operation).
> 
> With all these false phases, plastic covers, aversion to finned heatsinks, industry drove itself into a corner.


For 24/7 opperation, you don't buy an desktopboard. Then you buy a serverboard like Supermicro 😉


----------



## asdkj1740

SpeedyIV said:


> Also, on an unrelated topic, does anyone know if Asus has stopped putting thread locker on the Max XI Hero (wifi) M.2 heat sink screws? Amazon and New Egg are full of reviews complaining about these screws being so tight and/or gooped with thread locker that they are stripping the heads out or having to flip the board over and remove the screws that hold the entire heat sink assembly on. Some have given up on ever using both M.2 slots. Lots of pictures of stripped screws. Asus support solution is to RMA the entire board. I have not read a single case where Asus just dropped a few replacement screws in the mail. They are evidently rather long and impossible to find anywhere.
> 
> Thanks!


asus m.2 screw sucks as always, really really suck. i i have seen this a lot on b350 b450 x370 x470 z370 z390.

btw
i just checked a z390 strix f today and i didnt fint any screws for that fan mounting bracket.
on the guide it states nothing about the fan screws, and inside the pack of fan mounting there is definitely no screws inside!


----------



## AlphaC

Raghar said:


> What are differences between On Semi NCP302045, and Hero MOSFETs? Also what's reliability of each brand?
> More efficient means less power consumption. When your MB eats 15 W more 24/7, you could give damn about transient response. 8-phase and properly designed output filtering should remove most problems anyway.
> 
> I have kinda suspicion that the better transient response is somehow similar to situation when user changed VRM frequency from 250 to 400kHz. Power is smoother, but VRM eats more power (and needs finned heatsinks that can handle 400-500 kHz 24/7 operation).
> 
> With all these false phases, plastic covers, aversion to finned heatsinks, industry drove itself into a corner.


NCP302045 (45A powerstage) https://www.onsemi.com/pub/Collateral/NCP302045-D.PDF

Note peak efficiency ~92%

SiC639 (50A powerstage) https://www.vishay.com/docs/76585/sic639.pdf


----------



## guitarmageddon88

Wow I just spent an hour reading through many of these pages. Very interesting info. I'm a bit confused on where my Maximus x code falls into the big picture. If I got a certain build revision , did I get screwed? Or is generally of good quality and the issues mentioned don't affect the code as much?


----------



## SpeedyIV

guitarmageddon88 said:


> Wow I just spent an hour reading through many of these pages. Very interesting info. I'm a bit confused on where my Maximus x code falls into the big picture. If I got a certain build revision , did I get screwed? Or is generally of good quality and the issues mentioned don't affect the code as much?


I think it was only the Max X Hero and Hero wifi that had a mid-production VRM change. AFAIK, the Code and Formula both had the better VRM and the Hero was intended to have the cheaper one. They only started putting the better one on the Hero when they had a sourcing issue with the intended components. Once that cleared up, they went back to stuffing the boards with the original cheaper components. Some Hero wifi boards have REV1.01 stenciled on them. Mine does, and it has the inferior VRM design. Elmor said in a post a while back that the presence of that REV1.01 label is not related to the VRM version on the board. That (to me) infers 2 things. 1 - you can't tell which VRM you have by that REV1.01 label - you have to look for the doublers on the back side. 2 - REV1.01 must mean something else, so there must be other variations on the Hero REV1.01 boards verses not REV1.01 boards. I have no idea what REV1.10 signifies. Maybe Elmor will pipe in here with those details. 

I have never heard of multiple versions of the other Max X ROG boards. There well could be, since Asus seems to have no problem changing components critical to performance, and not publicly documenting it, or even admitting to it when asked.


----------



## SpeedyIV

BurritoJustice said:


> I'm hovering over a Gigabyte Z390 Aorus Xtreme in my cart right now, the only thing that I am reserved about is the upcoming release of the "Waterforce" variant. Does anyone know if there are any changes other than the obvious waterblock? The VRM temps seem insanely low which seems to make the waterblock redundant, but if there are other features like flow sensors or more IO then I will consider waiting. Any word on availability or is it just the short blurb in the Xtreme product release?
> 
> Going into my loop of delidded 9900K, 760mm of radiator, so cooling should be sorted for the CPU at least.
> 
> @GBT-MatthewH?





GBT-MatthewH said:


> Should be exactly the same specs - just a mono block  If the stars align its possible it could be up next week, otherwise right after the holiday break.


Looks like its been released, at least the press release has been released...

https://wccftech.com/z390-aorus-xtr...tqid=ke27dSM9GkoB2cFLfAvP8IKgbcGCXo6v1EtcJ.0$


----------



## GAN77

SpeedyIV said:


> 1 - you can't tell which VRM you have by that REV1.01 label - you have to look for the doublers on the back side.


Yes. This VRM analog Code X.


----------



## Solarity

yarly said:


> im just using the alphacool eisbaer 420 aio also idk if those temps reading are accurate, im gonna have to get a z390 board


 @yarly - I was having the same problem in HWINFO64. It didn't happen all of the time, though noticed twice during two different RealBench stress tests. 

I am too have a Z370 Gaming 7 and a 9900K. I have been playing with all week trying to figure out a solution. I removed the LED and covers off the VRM heatsinks, that only helped 2-4C at most. The issue is the poor design of the heatsink is it can't carry away the heat quick enough. I use to use Prime95, though switched to RealBench as my VRM temps would skyrocket. 

Looking at the Z390 Master it has much better cooling, and 12 phases, though the phases have less efficient power stages and each one is rated at 40A to the 60A of the Gaming 7. So in theory other than VRM cooling, I don't think it offers much. Also as we are both doing custom loops and that can have impact of airflow over the heatsink. My solution is the following:

I bought this old kit for $19 off FrozenCPU: http://www.frozencpu.com/products/2...or_Water_Block_Kit_-_Copper_Nickel_11435.html

I then did a lot of measuring and cut one bracket down a little bit and drilled three holes. I then attached it to my motherboard. It only took me a couple hours on Sunday. I am in the process of rebuilding my loop (OCD and rigid tubing). I have two more runs to do tonight and hopefully I can start leak testing tonight as well. I had to remove the rear IO shroud to get it to fit, though I am fine with that. So after $20 in parts, I should be fine. It has been an interesting journey doing this. Though I think I have found a solution. If I didn't already have the MB, I would have bought Z390, though I really couldn't find a good reason to upgrade, other than cooling. With this mod, it should be better than the Z390 Master.


----------



## mouacyk

Some pics would rock


----------



## Solarity

mouacyk said:


> Some pics would rock


----------



## eric98k

Gigabyte Z390 Aorus Xtreme Waterforce Motherboard
https://www.gigabyte.com/Motherboard/Z390-AORUS-XTREME-WATERFORCE-rev-10#kf


----------



## mouacyk

Solarity said:


> Spoiler


Beautiful. Are you able to get any VRM temperature measurements before and after?


----------



## guitarmageddon88

So on my Maximus x code, after reading this thread I went and checked my vrm temp reading in hwinfo. It was the tail end of a 20 hour prime run at 5.1....it.said 50c. Does that sound right? It was barely budging up or down at.all. wonder if it's the right sensor .


----------



## BurritoJustice

SpeedyIV said:


> Looks like its been released, at least the press release has been released...
> 
> https://wccftech.com/z390-aorus-xtr...tqid=ke27dSM9GkoB2cFLfAvP8IKgbcGCXo6v1EtcJ.0$



Awesome, so sold. Just the right kind of "extra" for me!


----------



## tostitobandito

asdkj1740 said:


> asus m.2 screw sucks as always, really really suck. i i have seen this a lot on b350 b450 x370 x470 z370 z390.
> 
> btw
> i just checked a z390 strix f today and i didnt fint any screws for that fan mounting bracket.
> on the guide it states nothing about the fan screws, and inside the pack of fan mounting there is definitely no screws inside!


I had no issues with the M2 screws on my M11 Hero. No threadlocker as far as I can recall.


----------



## Exilon

yarly said:


> so I got my 9900k today and has been testing 5ghz overclock on a z370 aorus gaming 7 motherboard, I ran prime95 for 20 min on that oc and those are the temps, so the question is do I need to get a z390?


No, it's fine. The sensors are bugged on the Z370 Gaming 7


----------



## Exilon

Falkentyne said:


> It's just a term. There's no reason to be politically correct about it.
> 
> DC loadline affects vdroop on the VID the same way that loadline calibration affects vdroop on the vcore itself, except DC loadline is set by mOhms, while LLC is set by "levels" (which are a certain amount of mOhms too). With 0 mOhm loadline being the highest level (no vdroop).
> 
> The "Issue" is that, on adaptive voltage, the cpu vcore doesn't respond to the DC loadline dropping (or not dropping, at 0.01 mOhms) the VID. I'm not sure if it is supposed to or if there is a setting where you relegate it to the vcore. You would THINK the "Auto" setting for Loadline Calibration would pass this to "DC Loadline" but it doesn't. At least not on the Aorus Master. Auto, Standard and Normal all seem to do the same thing. (set reference loadline value of 1.6 mOhms for 8 cores). It *DOES* respond to the AC loadline value RAISING the VID, however!


Here's what I got on my 9900K with a Z370 Gaming 7.










Based on my observations, all the LLC levels add a Vcore boost that kicks in at certain Icc. Turbo is nuts; It'll do +100mV over VID.

Even the lowest LLC level I can't get Vcore to drop below 1.3v reliably.

Between this LLC behavior, the buggy ITE 8686E sensor, wildy different Vcore readings, software dual bios boot loops, and UEFI profiles freezing on load ... my confidence in Gigabyte motherboards is shot. The best VRM can't make up for the firmware and pushing overclocks is a pain. 

I'll just leave my overclock as it is and hope it's actually not feeding 1.45v to the CPU at idle despite the IT8792E saying it's maxing out at 1.38v


----------



## Exilon

Solarity said:


> @yarly - I was having the same problem in HWINFO64. It didn't happen all of the time, though noticed twice during two different RealBench stress tests.
> 
> I am too have a Z370 Gaming 7 and a 9900K. I have been playing with all week trying to figure out a solution. I removed the LED and covers off the VRM heatsinks, that only helped 2-4C at most. The issue is the poor design of the heatsink is it can't carry away the heat quick enough. I use to use Prime95, though switched to RealBench as my VRM temps would skyrocket.
> 
> Looking at the Z390 Master it has much better cooling, and 12 phases, though the phases have less efficient power stages and each one is rated at 40A to the 60A of the Gaming 7. So in theory other than VRM cooling, I don't think it offers much. Also as we are both doing custom loops and that can have impact of airflow over the heatsink. My solution is the following:
> 
> I bought this old kit for $19 off FrozenCPU: http://www.frozencpu.com/products/2...or_Water_Block_Kit_-_Copper_Nickel_11435.html
> 
> I then did a lot of measuring and cut one bracket down a little bit and drilled three holes. I then attached it to my motherboard. It only took me a couple hours on Sunday. I am in the process of rebuilding my loop (OCD and rigid tubing). I have two more runs to do tonight and hopefully I can start leak testing tonight as well. I had to remove the rear IO shroud to get it to fit, though I am fine with that. So after $20 in parts, I should be fine. It has been an interesting journey doing this. Though I think I have found a solution. If I didn't already have the MB, I would have bought Z390, though I really couldn't find a good reason to upgrade, other than cooling. With this mod, it should be better than the Z390 Master.


I'm surprised that we see so much variance between the Z370 Gaming 7 VRM temperatures. If I recall correctly, someone on their forums found that there was poor mounting pressure on some of their boards due to warping. My board is fine and I don't see the VRMs exceeding 80C even under constant 250W package power (x265 encoding). More worried about melting the EPS connector


----------



## Falkentyne

Exilon said:


> Here's what I got on my 9900K with a Z370 Gaming 7.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Based on my observations, all the LLC levels add a Vcore boost that kicks in at certain Icc. Turbo is nuts; It'll do +100mV over VID.
> 
> Even the lowest LLC level I can't get Vcore to drop below 1.3v reliably.
> 
> Between this LLC behavior, the buggy ITE 8686E sensor, wildy different Vcore readings, software dual bios boot loops, and UEFI profiles freezing on load ... my confidence in Gigabyte motherboards is shot. The best VRM can't make up for the firmware and pushing overclocks is a pain.
> 
> I'll just leave my overclock as it is and hope it's actually not feeding 1.45v to the CPU at idle despite the IT8792E saying it's maxing out at 1.38v


You need to look at VR VOUT to see what the actual voltage is, not the IT8792E.
This is important.


----------



## Solarity

Exilon said:


> I'm surprised that we see so much variance between the Z370 Gaming 7 VRM temperatures. If I recall correctly, someone on their forums found that there was poor mounting pressure on some of their boards due to warping. My board is fine and I don't see the VRMs exceeding 80C even under constant 250W package power (x265 encoding). More worried about melting the EPS connector


What stress tests are you running? I tried tightening them and didn't see any improvements. My 8600K didn't have any issues. Also I looked at the bottom of the VRM heatsink after removing it. I did see the the mosfets were imprinted into the thermal pads. I am doing a leak test, so hopefully tonight I will be able to verify temps and etc.


----------



## guitarmageddon88

SpeedyIV said:


> Also, on an unrelated topic, does anyone know if Asus has stopped putting thread locker on the Max XI Hero (wifi) M.2 heat sink screws? Amazon and New Egg are full of reviews complaining about these screws being so tight and/or gooped with thread locker that they are stripping the heads out or having to flip the board over and remove the screws that hold the entire heat sink assembly on. Some have given up on ever using both M.2 slots. Lots of pictures of stripped screws. Asus support solution is to RMA the entire board. I have not read a single case where Asus just dropped a few replacement screws in the mail. They are evidently rather long and impossible to find anywhere.
> 
> Thanks!


Yes what the heck?!?? I was sweating bullets on build day for my x code. I stripped one out and it came out by the grace of God. What a STUPID idea !


----------



## KedarWolf

guitarmageddon88 said:


> Yes what the heck?!?? I was sweating bullets on build day for my x code. I stripped one out and it came out by the grace of God. What a STUPID idea !


Someone said they heated up the screws with a hair dryer before removing them and had no issues, but yes, this shouldn't be necessary.


----------



## Exilon

Falkentyne said:


> You need to look at VR VOUT to see what the actual voltage is, not the IT8792E.
> This is important.


I don't have a VR_OUT on Z370 Gaming 7


----------



## Falkentyne

Exilon said:


> I don't have a VR_OUT on Z370 Gaming 7


Ah i understand.
Then remember that the onboard voltage sensors are going to be quite erratic. Every single manufacturer has this problem, Elmor discussed this issue in this thread some pages back.
If you have two vcore sensors, the second of the two may be the more accurate sensor (whichever sensor is closer to your bios voltage and has a smaller delta in min/max).

https://www.overclock.net/forum/27686004-post2664.html

The VR VOUT sensor on some Z390 boards (MSI MEG Ace has it, most of the Aorus ones have it; Elite seems to read a dummy value) gets its data directly from the CPU on-die sense pins, so that voltage is going to be an extremely accurate voltage and would help your test, which you clearly took alot of time and patience to do. I'm assuming on your board, the vcore sensor you read would be consistently higher than the on-die sense pins, which would show a lot more vdroop, except at the maximum LLC, where the vdroop would be zero and it would read the same voltage set in the bios (assuming you are using manual vcore of course). But regardless, it would always read lower than the onboard sensors. (note that maximum LLC is not safe to use higher than 1.15-1.20v due to dangerous transient voltage spikes).


----------



## Exilon

Falkentyne said:


> Ah i understand.
> Then remember that the onboard voltage sensors are going to be quite erratic. Every single manufacturer has this problem, Elmor discussed this issue in this thread some pages back.
> If you have two vcore sensors, the second of the two may be the more accurate sensor (whichever sensor is closer to your bios voltage and has a smaller delta in min/max).
> 
> https://www.overclock.net/forum/27686004-post2664.html
> 
> The VR VOUT sensor on some Z390 boards (MSI MEG Ace has it, most of the Aorus ones have it; Elite seems to read a dummy value) gets its data directly from the CPU on-die sense pins, so that voltage is going to be an extremely accurate voltage and would help your test, which you clearly took alot of time and patience to do. I'm assuming on your board, the vcore sensor you read would be consistently higher than the on-die sense pins, which would show a lot more vdroop, except at the maximum LLC, where the vdroop would be zero and it would read the same voltage set in the bios (assuming you are using manual vcore of course). But regardless, it would always read lower than the onboard sensors. (note that maximum LLC is not safe to use higher than 1.15-1.20v due to dangerous transient voltage spikes).


Fortunately it was part of me trying to optimize the new overclock so no real wasted effort.

However I was watching the power consumption when running these tests so I know that something is up with LLC on the Gaming 7. Lowering VID would not have any effect on power use in HWInfo or at the wallmeter once some invisible threshold was hit at each LLC level. Maximum/Turbo LLC definitely added voltage over the VID in adaptive mode, probably over 100mV, since power usage climbed over even static 1.35v by a staggering 30W before thermal throttling.


----------



## Falkentyne

Exilon said:


> Fortunately it was part of me trying to optimize the new overclock so no real wasted effort.
> 
> However I was watching the power consumption when running these tests so I know that something is up with LLC on the Gaming 7. Lowering VID would not have any effect on power use in HWInfo or at the wallmeter once some invisible threshold was hit at each LLC level. Maximum/Turbo LLC definitely added voltage over the VID in adaptive mode, probably over 100mV, since power usage climbed over even static 1.35v by a staggering 30W before thermal throttling.


I only did a few tests with adaptive mode and found the IA AC setting affects the default VID, and thus the default vcore, but the IA DC setting didn't seem to affect anything except VID decreasing (a loadline slope) as DC increased, but vcore was completely unaffected, but power draw seemed to change based on the VID.

These two screenshots should be sufficient.

(First: IA 160, DC 1, LLC standard, load)
(Second: IA 160, DC 160, LLC standard, load)

You can see VID decreased (drooped) with DC 160 vs DC 1, but VR VOUT remained identical, thus power usage was identical also.

Also did a few LLC tests yesterday with low vcore, which shows that VR VOUT is the true voltage (I had it set so bios voltage + LLC Turbo would equal lower bios voltage+LLC Extreme, at full load). In the 1344K AVX test the VR OUT voltage is lower at 5.1 ghz with LLC Extreme because the power draw (amps) is higher= more vdroop with AVX while the turbo+higher vcore in bios vs Extreme with lower vcore in bios converge with non AVX.

4.7 ghz HT Off, llc high: bios 1.200v
vrvout 1.193v, vcore 1.188v idle
vrvout 1.174v, vcore 1.188v load (No AVX), watts 77.500, amps 67.250A, TS 87.6W
vrvout 1.168v, vcore 1.188v (FMA3) watts 100.5W, amps 87.650, TS 115.0

4.7 ghz HT Off llc extreme bios: 1.200v
vrvout 1.197v, vcore 1.199v idle
vrvout 1.186v, vcore 1.199v-1.210v load (No AVX), Watts:80.000, amps 68.250A, TS 89.4W
vrvout 1.180v, vcore 1.199v-1.210v load (FMA3), watts 102.500, amps 87.250A (TS:115W)

4.7ghz HT Off llc ultraextreme bios 1.180v
vrvout 1.180v, vcore 1.188v idle
vrvout 1.180v, vcore 1.199v (No AVX), watts 79.500, amps 67.750A, TS 88.6W
vrvout 1.180v, vcore 1.210v load (FMA3), watts 102.500, amps 87.250A, TS 115.5W

5.1 ghz 1.335v bios, LLC Turbo
vrvout 1.326v, vcore 1.331v idle
vrvout 1.273v, vcore 1.331v (no avx), watts 200.5W, amps 159.250v TS 209W
1344K AVX: VRvout 1.287v, watts 158W, amps 123.5A

5.1 ghz HT On, 1.315 bios, LLC Extreme
vrvout 1.311v, vcore 1.309v idle
vrvout 1.277v, vcore 1.342v (no avx), watts 208, amps 163.250A, TS 216W

5.1 ghz, HT On 1.310v bios, LLC Extreme
vrvout 1.305v, vcore 1.309v idle
vrvout 1.273v, vcore 1.331v (no avx), watts 202W, amps 159.250A, TS 210W
vrvout 1.281v, vcore 1.331v (1344K avx), watts 158W, amps 124A


----------



## Solarity

So I have my system "together" enough to run some benchmarks and stress tests. Keeping all the same settings, I am seeing a ~70C drop in temps, after I removed the "heatsink" off my Z370 Gaming 7 and replaced it with modified VRM blocks. I have never seen a dramatic difference in temperature going from stock to a mod like this. The stock VRM cooling is extremely flawed on these boards. I am glad I am getting these temps. Though I am having a problem that seems to keep occurring. HWINFO64 motherboard sensors are acting weird and not showing the proper temps after running it for about 13 minutes. Restarting HWINFO64 the stats are all gone not even showing. I have to reboot my machine. This is very frustrating if you want to do a stress test, then you lose all your sensors.


----------



## Falkentyne

Solarity said:


> So I have my system "together" enough to run some benchmarks and stress tests. Keeping all the same settings, I am seeing a ~70C drop in temps, after I removed the "heatsink" off my Z370 Gaming 7 and replaced it with modified VRM blocks. I have never seen a dramatic difference in temperature going from stock to a mod like this. The stock VRM cooling is extremely flawed on these boards. I am glad I am getting these temps. Though I am having a problem that seems to keep occurring. HWINFO64 motherboard sensors are acting weird and not showing the proper temps after running it for about 13 minutes. Restarting HWINFO64 the stats are all gone not even showing. I have to reboot my machine. This is very frustrating if you want to do a stress test, then you lose all your sensors.


Did this happen BEFORE you removed the stock shroud?
If no, then double check for shorting somewhere.


----------



## Exilon

That's an issue with the Gaming 7. 

IT8686E bugs out after running stress tests


----------



## Solarity

It was happening prior to me doing the mod. I have gone 40mins without the issue this last run. I think my Corsair RGB RAM and having software mode was causing something with the SMBus to wig out. Disabling software mode seems to have fixed it. I didn't have the issue for a long time, then I am guessing I started running into after enabled it. Will monitor the issue.


----------



## marcolisi

Hi guys, I have just received the asus maximus XI extreme and I have 2 questions. 


The asus maximus extreme comes with a Dimm.2

Would it somehow limit the power of the 2080 ti video card if I put two m2 cards in it?


https://rog.asus.com/forum/showthread.php?105476-Maximus-XI-Extreme-DIMM-2-slot-question

What is the difference instead if I install the m2 directly on the motherboard compared to install the the M2 card inside the dimm.2 heatsink block ?


----------



## Robbært

marcolisi said:


> Hi guys, I have just received the asus maximus XI extreme and I have 2 questions.
> 
> 
> The asus maximus extreme comes with a Dimm.2
> 
> Would it somehow limit the power of the 2080 ti video card if I put two m2 cards in it?


edit:upper PCIEx16 goes to CPU (in almost any motherboard) so it x16 unless 2nd (of 3) PCIE used.


----------



## Hawkeye360

marcolisi said:


> Hi guys, I have just received the asus maximus XI extreme and I have 2 questions.
> 
> 
> The asus maximus extreme comes with a Dimm.2
> 
> Would it somehow limit the power of the 2080 ti video card if I put two m2 cards in it?
> 
> 
> https://rog.asus.com/forum/showthread.php?105476-Maximus-XI-Extreme-DIMM-2-slot-question
> 
> What is the difference instead if I install the m2 directly on the motherboard compared to install the the M2 card inside the dimm.2 heatsink block ?


The DIMM.2 uses CPU lanes, using it will cause the x16 PCIe slot to run at x8 which will will reduce the performance of a 2080 Ti by about 2-3%. You won’t notice such a difference during gameplay but it does exist.

If you install the M.2 drive on the motherboard instead of the DIMM.2 card it will run off the chipset lanes allowing the x16 slot to run at full x16 speed.


----------



## marcolisi

Hawkeye360 said:


> marcolisi said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hi guys, I have just received the asus maximus XI extreme and I have 2 questions.
> 
> 
> The asus maximus extreme comes with a Dimm.2
> 
> Would it somehow limit the power of the 2080 ti video card if I put two m2 cards in it?
> 
> 
> https://rog.asus.com/forum/showthread.php?105476-Maximus-XI-Extreme-DIMM-2-slot-question
> 
> What is the difference instead if I install the m2 directly on the motherboard compared to install the the M2 card inside the dimm.2 heatsink block ?
> 
> 
> 
> The DIMM.2 uses CPU lanes, using it will cause the x16 PCIe slot to run at x8 which will will reduce the performance of a 2080 Ti by about 2-3%. You won’t notice such a difference during gameplay but it does exist.
> 
> If you install the M.2 drive on the motherboard instead of the DIMM.2 card it will run off the chipset lanes allowing the x16 slot to run at full x16 speed.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the reply! 
Got it!

And how much is the difference in the speed of the m2 between having the m2 using the cpu lines to run, versus having the m2 using the chipset to run?


----------



## SpeedyIV

Solarity said:


> It was happening prior to me doing the mod. I have gone 40mins without the issue this last run. I think my Corsair RGB RAM and having software mode was causing something with the SMBus to wig out. Disabling software mode seems to have fixed it. I didn't have the issue for a long time, then I am guessing I started running into after enabled it. Will monitor the issue.


Corsair decided to abandon using the proper interlock mutex while accessing the SMBus when they released the LL series fans which require software control. I am pretty sure this is what is causing HWINFO to wig out. IIRC, HWINFO will give you a pop up warning about this if it detects a Corsair Link product. You can click the box to have it not poll the Corsair device. Controlling RAM LEDs over the SMBUs has issues. When G.Skill Trident Z RGB RAM was initially released, there were lots of posts on their forum about DIMM SPD data being corrupted due to SMBUs access contention. If you run SIV, you can see what other programs are trying to access the bus. 

Since Corsair stopped using the interlock, you can't run Link or iCue while any other monitoring software is running.


----------



## toncij

Has anyone overclocked 9900K on Asus boards? XI Formula looks very attractive for a water cooled VRM and 5.0-5.2 overclock (and fast 4x8GB 4.273 RAM).


----------



## guitarmageddon88

So having read many of these pages so far, and being glad I got at least a decent board it seems (Maximus X code) that doesnt have incinerator oven VRMs, what is the "gold standard" of VRMs on motherboards these days? Who is known to use the highest quality, that youd buy if you were doing it all again? Or is it not a fair question because there will always be something you must prioritize, while giving up certain other features?


----------



## Falkentyne

guitarmageddon88 said:


> So having read many of these pages so far, and being glad I got at least a decent board it seems (Maximus X code) that doesnt have incinerator oven VRMs, what is the "gold standard" of VRMs on motherboards these days? Who is known to use the highest quality, that youd buy if you were doing it all again? Or is it not a fair question because there will always be something you must prioritize, while giving up certain other features?


Aorus Xtreme has the best VRM's (I believe MSI Godlike uses the same ones but doesn't have iGPU access).


----------



## Wihglah

toncij said:


> Has anyone overclocked 9900K on Asus boards? XI Formula looks very attractive for a water cooled VRM and 5.0-5.2 overclock (and fast 4x8GB 4.273 RAM).




Don't - go with Gigabyte. Better VRM solution.


----------



## Falkentyne

Wihglah said:


> Don't - go with Gigabyte. Better VRM solution.


Both are a wash unless someone with EE experience and equipment is willing to take an Oscilloscope directly to the vcore/on die sense pins or caps behind the socket and measure transient spikes at high and maximum loadline calibration levels (at low voltage), with full idle to full load-full idle cycles. But no one here seems to have an oscilloscope and the people that do seem to be too busy ...


----------



## Pictus

I do not know if already posted...
Hardware.Info Belgie


----------



## guitarmageddon88

Pictus said:


> I do not know if already posted...
> Hardware.Info Belgie


My vrms show 45-50 after the hardest of avx loads. Wonder if it's pulling the info in correctly? Asus Maximus x code


----------



## KedarWolf

@Jpmboy I have a Z370 Maximus X Formula that has a decent VRM.

I got a Christmas bonus. You think the Aorus Master would be a decent upgrade? Or can anyone answer here?

Edit: With my 9900k.

Second Edit: Maybe even the Aorus Xtreme, has to be a pretty huge upgrade.


----------



## tostitobandito

toncij said:


> Has anyone overclocked 9900K on Asus boards? XI Formula looks very attractive for a water cooled VRM and 5.0-5.2 overclock (and fast 4x8GB 4.273 RAM).


Yes, my 9900K is in a Maximus XI Hero. Doing just fine at 5.1GHz for a 24/7 config. No issues overclocking at all.


----------



## marcolisi

Hey guys , I have just got a MasterCase MC500 Mid-Tower Case for the asus maximux XI extreme motherboard but I have hard time trying to understand how to properly connect the case wires for the power and buttons of the case 
Do u have a close up skematic showing the proper way to connect the case to the motherboard. 

Tx


----------



## Nizzen

toncij said:


> Has anyone overclocked 9900K on Asus boards? XI Formula looks very attractive for a water cooled VRM and 5.0-5.2 overclock (and fast 4x8GB 4.273 RAM).


I'm using Asus z390 gene with my 9900k. Running with ht=off @ 5.3ghz and 4133 c16 memory. Max gaming performance for me. 1.34v on cpu.


----------



## mattxx88

Nizzen said:


> I'm using Asus z390 gene with my 9900k. Running with ht=off @ 5.3ghz and 4133 c16 memory. Max gaming performance for me. 1.34v on cpu.


Can i ask why you leaned towards for an 9900k rather than 9700k?


----------



## Exilon

I think a 250W package power 9900K is the limit of my Gigabyte Z370 Gaming 7.

Edit: This is with aftermarket pads too.










In other news, the IT8686E VRM sensor was -20C lower than my thermal probe on the back of the board until it cut out. The one job it was supposed to be good for...


----------



## asdkj1740

https://www.chiphell.com/thread-1940045-1-1.html
apex


----------



## asdkj1740

Exilon said:


> I think a 250W package power 9900K is the limit of my Gigabyte Z370 Gaming 7.
> 
> Edit: This is with aftermarket pads too.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In other news, the IT8686E VRM sensor was -20C lower than my thermal probe on the back of the board until it cut out. The one job it was supposed to be good for...


vrm fan is on?
and 1.5mm thick aftermarket pad?


----------



## toncij

Wihglah said:


> Don't - go with Gigabyte. Better VRM solution.





Pictus said:


> I do not know if already posted...
> Hardware.Info Belgie





KedarWolf said:


> @Jpmboy I have a Z370 Maximus X Formula that has a decent VRM.
> 
> I got a Christmas bonus. You think the Aorus Master would be a decent upgrade? Or can anyone answer here?
> 
> Edit: With my 9900k.
> 
> Second Edit: Maybe even the Aorus Xtreme, has to be a pretty huge upgrade.





tostitobandito said:


> Yes, my 9900K is in a Maximus XI Hero. Doing just fine at 5.1GHz for a 24/7 config. No issues overclocking at all.





Nizzen said:


> I'm using Asus z390 gene with my 9900k. Running with ht=off @ 5.3ghz and 4133 c16 memory. Max gaming performance for me. 1.34v on cpu.



Well, since Formula is going to get watercooled, temperatures don't really matter, only the ability to run those things. I'm a bit hesitant to go with GB since I'm using a relatively fast RAM, 4266C17 on 4 sticks (32GB).
Also, the ability to run macOS by having a true access to NVRAM is not something I know GB has (unlike Asus that has protection flag in BIOS). Not sure if anything of those is an upgrade to Maximus X Formula already used, aside from possible 10GbE on Xtreme, which is nice due to pathetic number of PCIE slots and lanes overall across the Z390 board (pun intended).


----------



## Nizzen

How is the performance of Gigabyte z390 other than low vrm temp? Does it like high overclock to the memory with tweaks like Asus?


----------



## Telstar

Pictus said:


> I do not know if already posted...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> [/URL]


It makes no sense that the Gene has higher temp than hero/formula etc.


----------



## asdkj1740

KedarWolf said:


> @Jpmboy I have a Z370 Maximus X Formula that has a decent VRM.
> 
> I got a Christmas bonus. You think the Aorus Master would be a decent upgrade? Or can anyone answer here?
> 
> Edit: With my 9900k.
> 
> Second Edit: Maybe even the Aorus Xtreme, has to be a pretty huge upgrade.


your bonus must be huge too.
apex is around the corncer btw.


----------



## KedarWolf

asdkj1740 said:


> your bonus must be huge too.
> apex is around the corncer btw.


Want a four DIMM MB so I got the Aorus Xtreme. If I was going with Asus it would of been the Extreme but the VRMs on the Aorus Xtreme are so good. 

Was concerned about the VRM setup with Asus.


----------



## AlphaC

The Stilt tested Z390 boards:
Asrock Taichi (TI NexFET) --- BIOS screenshot dated 11/15/2018
ASUS STRIX Z390-E (Onsemi NCP302045 variant) -- 0602 BIOS dated 10/19/2018 , BIOS screenshot 11/18/2018
Gigabyte Aorus Z390 Ultra (SiC634) --- screenshot dated 11/18/2018
MSI Z390 Pro Carbon (onsemi 4c029N+4c024N) --- E7B17IMS.121 BIOS dated 10/25/2018 , BIOS screenshot 11/18/2018

https://www.io-tech.fi/artikkelit/testissa-intel-z390-emolevyt-asrock-asus-gigabyte-msi/




> The power efficiency and temperature measurements of the power supply proved to be quite in line with the anticipated expectations on the basis of their structure, for all but the case of Asus. Despite the smaller number of phases and the parallel structure of the same price range competitors, Asus managed to wedge itself to the top of every segment. Its efficiency was the highest, albeit with a small margin and the same power supply temperatures were the lowest in both test cases. On the motherboard of Asus, it should be noted that although a separate power fan cooling fan is supplied with the motherboard, no such fan was used during the tests. The reason for this is that the fan is delivered from the motherboard as a stand-alone, so its use is to be considered voluntary.
> 
> There were no significant differences between the ASRock, Asus and Gigabytes in power supply efficiency. At MSI, however, the old-fashioned power supply implementation on the motherboard is shown and its efficiency remains around 5-6% after other tested motherboards.
> 
> The spread at the power supply temperatures, on the other hand, was higher than expected, and particularly the ASRock's motherboard's high power temperature, raised a little bit of wonder. However, based on a direct airflow test, it is quite clear that the high temperatures of the ASRock are mainly due to the design of the power supply radiator and the covering shell. The design of the radiator used by ASRock does not seem to make the airflow coming from the processor cooler as efficient as any other tested motherboards. Installing the fan in the rear of the enclosure The ceiling fan at the place where the ASRock's power supply dropped was massive 18 degrees, with the average for other tested motherboards being only 8 degrees.
> 
> As expected, the motherboard of MSI was the highest temperature readings of the test as the power supply temperatures rose without a separate fan to 102 degrees. Since temperatures were not even reached below 94 degrees with the help of direct air flow, it can be quite straightforward to say that there is much to be desired both in the power supply itself and in the cooler itself.
> 
> The temperatures measured on the motherboard of Asus were, in turn, so low that the undersigned had to suspend the tests to ensure proper contact between the thermocouple. However, there was no problem with the installation of the heat sensor, and the power supply also works really cool. Without the airflow produced by a separate fan, Asus's power supply was up to 13 degrees cooler than its closest competitor, Gigabyte reached 85 degrees Celsius. When the fan was installed in the rear seat of the casing ceiling fan, Asus' power supply temperature dropped to 66 degrees and Gigabytes temperature to 75 degrees.
> 
> Based on the results, it can be said that, despite the parallel power supply structure, Asus's design has gone quite a bit thanks to the enhancements made to the PCB, the power supply cooler and the high efficiency components used.
> 
> Temperature measurements also revealed a disadvantage of a Gigabyte motherboard. Gigabyte has released PowerPoint for Z390 motherboards, which compares the power supply temperatures of different motherboards and compares them to their own products. In the same presentation, Gigabyte instructs the media to use their motherboards, the readings displayed to them specifically by the VRM MOS thermometer added to determine the power supply temperature. The value of this thermocouple can be read in both the motherboard bios and through multiple monitoring software. However, in the tests, it was found that Gigabyte has been obviously creative with the positioning of that probe because the temperature reported by the VRM MOS sensor was found to be up to 23 degrees below the external voltage of the K-type thermometer.
> 
> The most tragic thing about this is that the Gigabyte power supply actually includes a realistic temperature reader, but no monitoring program can read it at the writing of the article. However, support for Gigabytes and many other manufacturers for the same power supply driver circuit boards has already been added to HWInfo, and in the future the correct temperature readings can be seen in the new versions of the program. In the power supply driver circuit, the readings reported by its own thermal sensor were on average within the degree measured by an external sensor, or about 22 degrees higher than the values ​​reported by the Gigabyte's own VRM MOS sensor. We are leaving here the reasons for the strange inaccuracy of the Gigabyte VRM MOS sensor, for each reader to estimate.












> Since the power supply systems for the tested motherboards differ quite significantly from each other, we also decided to test whether their differences in electrical properties are large enough to produce practical differences as well. Since the Core i9-9900K processors are fully-temperature-restricted by maximum frequency, we performed the test by searching for the minimum required voltage on each motherboard at a fixed 4.8 GHz clock frequency.
> 
> The test program used was the FIRESTARTER test for the load testing of processors. The program includes a handwritten and optimized FMA3 code path for Skylake architecture processors, and thus it is able to strain the test processor very efficiently. The power consumption caused by the FIRESTARTER test program is comparable to the Prime95 FMA3 test, with the difference that it exacerbates the processor's cache even more. For processors using Skylake architecture, caches are the first defective part of the core when the operating voltage of the processor falls down or down.
> 
> Despite the relatively moderate 4.8 GHz test frequency, processor power consumption exceeded the 201-221 watts of the FIRESTARTER test depending on the voltage being used. The actual operating voltage was measured from the ceramic or tantalum capacitor behind the processor base, using a Fluke 179 multimeter.












I'm just leaving this here for discussion, since results from other places are very different _with thermal camera shots_ and also K-type thermocouple probes. I don't know if those were review samples with old BIOs versions but it just seems odd that ASUS outperforms the other boards in his test when everywhere else has evidence to the contrary.


---------------


Z390-I at hwinside https://www.hardwareinside.de/asus-rog-strix-z390-i-gaming-im-test-38113/5/
60°C with Prime95 on i7, 115W or so, so it suggests it isn't overclocked



Z390-E at Kitguru https://www.kitguru.net/components/...og-strix-z390-e-gaming-motherboard-review/11/


Taichi at Guru3d https://www.guru3d.com/articles_pages/asrock_z390_taichi_ultimate_review,20.html


ROG Gene : 61-64°C after 12 hour Prime95 https://www.profesionalreview.com/2018/12/11/asus-rog-maximus-xi-gene-review/


----------



## Wihglah

toncij said:


> Well, since Formula is going to get watercooled, temperatures don't really matter, only the ability to run those things. I'm a bit hesitant to go with GB since I'm using a relatively fast RAM, 4266C17 on 4 sticks (32GB).
> Also, the ability to run macOS by having a true access to NVRAM is not something I know GB has (unlike Asus that has protection flag in BIOS). Not sure if anything of those is an upgrade to Maximus X Formula already used, aside from possible 10GbE on Xtreme, which is nice due to pathetic number of PCIE slots and lanes overall across the Z390 board (pun intended).


My VRMs are watercooled.

4266MHz is a pipe dream

vdroop is a joke.

8 phase VRM is frankly a lie. It's a 4 phase. On a £400 motherboard....


----------



## Nephalem89

Good afternoon that board z390 recommend for OC to a 9900k I have ample budget greetings and thanks


----------



## zervun

BurritoJustice said:


> Awesome, so sold. Just the right kind of "extra" for me!


I wonder if the waterblock can be bought as an add-on for those of us with the Xtreme.

I'm a bit torn though as it's most likely not as good performing for the CPU as a Kryos Next or a Heatkiller. The VRMs are already running cool, so I'm not sure it's much of an issue there. Maybe just mainly benefits for the coverage of the rest of the chipset?


----------



## Nephalem89

In your opinion what is the best option for buying for overclock my 9900k and gskill ram under custom loop.. Asus extrem.. Gigabyte extreme. Msi goodlike.... Gigabyte aorus or msi ace...or other options 

Thanks a lot! Guy's


----------



## Falkentyne

Nephalem89 said:


> In your opinion what is the best option for buying for overclock my 9900k and gskill ram under custom loop.. Asus extrem.. Gigabyte extreme. Msi goodlike.... Gigabyte aorus or msi ace...or other options
> 
> Thanks a lot! Guy's


Asus is best for RAM overclocking.
For CPU it's a wash.


----------



## Nephalem89

Falkentyne said:


> Nephalem89 said:
> 
> 
> 
> In your opinion what is the best option for buying for overclock my 9900k and gskill ram under custom loop.. Asus extrem.. Gigabyte extreme. Msi goodlike.... Gigabyte aorus or msi ace...or other options
> 
> Thanks a lot! Guy's
> 
> 
> 
> Asus is best for RAM overclocking.
> For CPU it's a wash.
Click to expand...

If it were you who would choose the best choice between the OC balance for the CPU and the RAM


----------



## Falkentyne

Nephalem89 said:


> If it were you who would choose the best choice between the OC balance for the CPU and the RAM


Uh....I don't know?


----------



## Nephalem89

Falkentyne said:


> Nephalem89 said:
> 
> 
> 
> If it were you who would choose the best choice between the OC balance for the CPU and the RAM
> 
> 
> 
> Uh....I don't know?
Click to expand...

In the gigabyte extrem that such the OC of the CPU and the ram


----------



## toncij

Wihglah said:


> My VRMs are watercooled.
> 
> 4266MHz is a pipe dream
> 
> vdroop is a joke.
> 
> 8 phase VRM is frankly a lie. It's a 4 phase. On a £400 motherboard....


Well, my 8700K ran 4266 with no issues on X Formula and its VRM. For 9900K it seems that CPU IMC is a culprit for not running it above 4000.


----------



## SpeedyIV

AlphaC said:


> The Stilt tested Z390 boards:
> Asrock Taichi (TI NexFET) --- BIOS screenshot dated 11/15/2018
> ASUS STRIX Z390-E (Onsemi NCP302045 variant) -- 0602 BIOS dated 10/19/2018 , BIOS screenshot 11/18/2018
> Gigabyte Aorus Z390 Ultra (SiC634) --- screenshot dated 11/18/2018
> MSI Z390 Pro Carbon (onsemi 4c029N+4c024N) --- E7B17IMS.121 BIOS dated 10/25/2018 , BIOS screenshot 11/18/2018
> 
> https://www.io-tech.fi/artikkelit/testissa-intel-z390-emolevyt-asrock-asus-gigabyte-msi/
> 
> 
> The temperatures measured on the motherboard of Asus were, in turn, so low that the undersigned had to suspend the tests to ensure proper contact between the thermocouple. However, there was no problem with the installation of the heat sensor, and the power supply also works really cool. Without the airflow produced by a separate fan, Asus's power supply was up to 13 degrees cooler than its closest competitor, Gigabyte reached 85 degrees Celsius. When the fan was installed in the rear seat of the casing ceiling fan, Asus' power supply temperature dropped to 66 degrees and Gigabytes temperature to 75 degrees.
> 
> Based on the results, it can be said that, despite the parallel power supply structure, Asus's design has gone quite a bit thanks to the enhancements made to the PCB, the power supply cooler and the high efficiency components used.
> 
> Temperature measurements also revealed a disadvantage of a Gigabyte motherboard. Gigabyte has released PowerPoint for Z390 motherboards, which compares the power supply temperatures of different motherboards and compares them to their own products. In the same presentation, Gigabyte instructs the media to use their motherboards, the readings displayed to them specifically by the VRM MOS thermometer added to determine the power supply temperature. The value of this thermocouple can be read in both the motherboard bios and through multiple monitoring software. However, in the tests, it was found that Gigabyte has been obviously creative with the positioning of that probe because the temperature reported by the VRM MOS sensor was found to be up to 23 degrees below the external voltage of the K-type thermometer.
> 
> The most tragic thing about this is that the Gigabyte power supply actually includes a realistic temperature reader, but no monitoring program can read it at the writing of the article. However, support for Gigabytes and many other manufacturers for the same power supply driver circuit boards has already been added to HWInfo, and in the future the correct temperature readings can be seen in the new versions of the program. In the power supply driver circuit, the readings reported by its own thermal sensor were on average within the degree measured by an external sensor, or about 22 degrees higher than the values ​​reported by the Gigabyte's own VRM MOS sensor. We are leaving here the reasons for the strange inaccuracy of the Gigabyte VRM MOS sensor, for each reader to estimate.


If this is true then my head may possibly spin 360°! After reading many posts about Asus "Twin 8-Phase" really being a 4-phase, higher VRM temps, life long Asus customers feeling ripped off, returning boards, etc. Then praise for Gigabyte, with their no BS 8, 10, and 12-phase VRMs - many first time buyers moving away from Asus and their deceptive marketing practices, going with Gigabyte despite loving the Asus UEFI BIOS. Now these guys reading temps so low on Asus that they thought they had a setup problem, and then claiming that the new Asus parallel design runs cooler than any of the competition, and that Gigabyte is playing sensor placement games resulting in huge temp under-reporting. This is almost like trying to find an honest politician!


----------



## Nephalem89

SpeedyIV said:


> AlphaC said:
> 
> 
> 
> The Stilt tested Z390 boards:
> Asrock Taichi (TI NexFET) --- BIOS screenshot dated 11/15/2018
> ASUS STRIX Z390-E (Onsemi NCP302045 variant) -- 0602 BIOS dated 10/19/2018 , BIOS screenshot 11/18/2018
> Gigabyte Aorus Z390 Ultra (SiC634) --- screenshot dated 11/18/2018
> MSI Z390 Pro Carbon (onsemi 4c029N+4c024N) --- E7B17IMS.121 BIOS dated 10/25/2018 , BIOS screenshot 11/18/2018
> 
> https://www.io-tech.fi/artikkelit/testissa-intel-z390-emolevyt-asrock-asus-gigabyte-msi/
> 
> 
> The temperatures measured on the motherboard of Asus were, in turn, so low that the undersigned had to suspend the tests to ensure proper contact between the thermocouple. However, there was no problem with the installation of the heat sensor, and the power supply also works really cool. Without the airflow produced by a separate fan, Asus's power supply was up to 13 degrees cooler than its closest competitor, Gigabyte reached 85 degrees Celsius. When the fan was installed in the rear seat of the casing ceiling fan, Asus' power supply temperature dropped to 66 degrees and Gigabytes temperature to 75 degrees.
> 
> Based on the results, it can be said that, despite the parallel power supply structure, Asus's design has gone quite a bit thanks to the enhancements made to the PCB, the power supply cooler and the high efficiency components used.
> 
> Temperature measurements also revealed a disadvantage of a Gigabyte motherboard. Gigabyte has released PowerPoint for Z390 motherboards, which compares the power supply temperatures of different motherboards and compares them to their own products. In the same presentation, Gigabyte instructs the media to use their motherboards, the readings displayed to them specifically by the VRM MOS thermometer added to determine the power supply temperature. The value of this thermocouple can be read in both the motherboard bios and through multiple monitoring software. However, in the tests, it was found that Gigabyte has been obviously creative with the positioning of that probe because the temperature reported by the VRM MOS sensor was found to be up to 23 degrees below the external voltage of the K-type thermometer.
> 
> The most tragic thing about this is that the Gigabyte power supply actually includes a realistic temperature reader, but no monitoring program can read it at the writing of the article. However, support for Gigabytes and many other manufacturers for the same power supply driver circuit boards has already been added to HWInfo, and in the future the correct temperature readings can be seen in the new versions of the program. In the power supply driver circuit, the readings reported by its own thermal sensor were on average within the degree measured by an external sensor, or about 22 degrees higher than the values ​​reported by the Gigabyte's own VRM MOS sensor. We are leaving here the reasons for the strange inaccuracy of the Gigabyte VRM MOS sensor, for each reader to estimate.
> 
> 
> 
> If this is true then my head may possibly spin 360°! After reading many posts about Asus "Twin 8-Phase" really being a 4-phase, higher VRM temps, life long Asus customers feeling ripped off, returning boards, etc. Then praise for Gigabyte, with their no BS 8, 10, and 12-phase VRMs - many first time buyers moving away from Asus and their deceptive marketing practices, going with Gigabyte despite loving the Asus UEFI BIOS. Now these guys reading temps so low on Asus that they thought they had a setup problem, and then claiming that the new Asus parallel design runs cooler than any of the competition, and that Gigabyte is playing sensor placement games resulting in huge temp under-reporting. This is almost like trying to find an honest politician!
Click to expand...

 in your opinion where this the best option for buying z390 motherboard?


----------



## AlphaC

I try to bring counterpoints to everything ; I don't try to hide things if I find them 


Other testing with thermal cameras and thermocouples showed the Master as cooler than the Hero, so maybe it's just a situation of the Ultra (on that particular firmware) vs Asus on the 602 BIOS


To be clear , this _doesn't _invalidate hwinfo NL or quasarzone Prime95 AVX @ 5GHz testing since they used non-contact thermal imagery. I just thought the Stilt's findings are interesting.


----------



## Nephalem89

AlphaC said:


> I try to bring counterpoints to everything ; I don't try to hide things if I find them /forum/images/smilies/tongue.gif
> 
> 
> Other testing with thermal cameras and thermocouples showed the Master as cooler than the Hero, so maybe it's just a situation of the Ultra (on that particular firmware) vs Asus on the 602 BIOS
> 
> 
> To be clear , this _doesn't _invalidate hwinfo NL or quasarzone Prime95 AVX @ 5GHz testing since they used non-contact thermal imagery. I just thought the Stilt's findings are interesting.


 @AlphaC A question given that you are very understood and active in this post... I wanted to ask what would be the best option for OC 9900k and a few rams Samsung B die Gskill... I have broad budget and use RL thanks


----------



## Robbært

Nephalem89 said:


> If it were you who would choose the best choice between the OC balance for the CPU and the RAM


Different motherboard not gonna change CPU OC unless we compare with something with trash VRM, like 10x (or even 8x) 4C10 MOSFETs.
Any z390 board should work fine with 3600 and slower memory.
Asus need extra cooler and still cost extra money. However it difficult not to assume all OC RAM tested with Asus and should work with.

As RAM OC it not overclock that well with new -9x00 Intel's.
And some modules still work fine with new CPU and default VCCSA/VCCIO/dram voltage. Or RAM OC is also silicon lottery now?



SpeedyIV said:


> If this is true then my head may possibly spin 360°! After reading many posts about Asus "Twin 8-Phase" really being a 4-phase, higher VRM temps, life long Asus customers feeling ripped off, returning boards, etc. Then praise for Gigabyte, with their no BS 8, 10, and 12-phase VRMs - many first time buyers moving away from Asus and their deceptive marketing practices, going with Gigabyte despite loving the Asus UEFI BIOS. Now these guys reading temps so low on Asus that they thought they had a setup problem, and then claiming that the new Asus parallel design runs cooler than any of the competition, and that Gigabyte is playing sensor placement games resulting in huge temp under-reporting. This is almost like trying to find an honest politician!


Not true, it paid review at it best.
Same Asus Z390-E VRM 115C 4.9GHz 9700k link


----------



## AlphaC

Nephalem89 said:


> @*AlphaC* A question given that you are very understood and active in this post... I wanted to ask what would be the best option for OC 9900k and a few rams Samsung B die Gskill... I have broad budget and use RL thanks


Depends on the number of DIMMs. If it's 2 DIMMs then probably ASUS ROG Gene/Apex given your CPU has a good memory controller.

For 2 DIMM > 4200MT/s the Gene lists:


Spoiler



CORSAIR CMK16GX4M2B4333C19R 4333Mhz 8GBx2 SS 1.4V 19-26-26-46 V
CORSAIR CMK16GX4M2E4333C19R 4333Mhz 8GBx2 SS 1.4V 19-26-26-46 V
Gskill F4-4333C19D-16GTZKKE 4333Mhz 8GBx2 SS 1.4V 19-19-19-39 V
Gskill F4-4333C19D-16GTZR 4333Mhz 8GBx2 SS 1.4V 19-19-19-39 V
CORSAIR CMK16GX4M2F4400C19 4400Mhz 8GBx2 SS 1.4V 19-19-19-39 V
Gskill F4-4400C19D-16GTZSW 4400Mhz 8GBx2 SS 1.4V 19-19-19-39 V
Gskill F4-4400C19D-16GTZKK 4400Mhz 8GBx2 SS 1.4V 19-19-19-39 V
Gskill F4-4400C19D-16GTZR 4400Mhz 8GBx2 SS 1.4V 19-19-19-39 V
CORSAIR CMK16GX4M2F4500C19 4500Mhz 8GBx2 SS 1.45V 19-19-19-39 V
CORSAIR CMK16GX4M2F4500C19R 4500Mhz 8GBx2 SS 1.45V 19-19-19-39 V
Gskill F4-4500C19D-16GTZKK 4500Mhz 8GBx2 SS 1.5V 19-23-23-43 V
Gskill F4-4500C19D-16GTZKKE 4500Mhz 8GBx2 SS 1.45V 19-19-19-39 V
Gskill F4-4500C19D-16GTZSWE 4500Mhz 8GBx2 SS 1.45V 19-19-19-39 V
Galax HOF4KXL1BST4500P19MG162 4500Mhz 8GBx2 SS 1.45V 19-19-19-39 V
TeamGroup TXKD416G4500HC18EDC01 4500Mhz 8GBx2 SS 1.45V 18-20-20-44 V
TeamGroup TXD416G4500HC18EDC01 4500Mhz 8GBx2 SS 1.45V 18-20-20-44 V
TeamGroup TF6D416G4500HC18EDC01 4500Mhz 8GBx2 SS 1.45V 18-20-20-44 V
TeamGroup TF5D416G4500HC18EDC01 4500Mhz 8GBx2 SS 1.45V 18-20-20-44 V
CORSAIR CMW16GX4M2K4600C19 4600Mhz 8GBx2 SS 1.5V 19-26-26-46 V
Gskill F4-4600C18D-16GTZR 4600Mhz 8GBx2 SS 1.5V 18-22-22-42 V
CORSAIR CMW16GX4M2K4700C19 4700Mhz 8GBx2 SS 1.5V 19-26-26-46 V
Gskill F4-4700C18D-16GTZR 4700Mhz 8GBx2 SS 1.5V 19-22-22-42 V


* Phantom ITX , a 2 DIMM ITX board, lists 2 DIMMs at 4500MHz: https://www.asrock.com/mb/Intel/Z390 Phantom Gaming-ITXac/index.asp#Memory
* MSI Ace (not advised) lists a few kits at 4500MHz with 2 DIMMs: https://www.msi.com/Motherboard/support/MEG-Z390-ACE#support-mem-3
* Aorus Xtreme / Aorus Master seem to have 4333MHz for 2 DIMMs 

I've seen at least one person with 4500MHz effective on the Gigabyte Aorus Master board so it's a _guideline_ to use the QVL, not a rule.
For 4 DIMMs they're more or less the same if you look at vendor QVLs.

* For example MSI Godlike (very expensive) lists one kit 4133 for 4 DIMM , mostly 4000MHz: https://www.msi.com/Motherboard/support/MEG-Z390-GODLIKE#support-mem-3
* MSI Ace (not advised) lists 3866 for 4 DIMMs: https://www.msi.com/Motherboard/support/MEG-Z390-ACE#support-mem-3
* Taichi lists 4 DIMMs at 3866 : https://www.asrock.com/mb/Intel/Z390 Taichi Ultimate/index.asp#Memory
* 4000MHz on Phantom Gaming 9: https://www.asrock.com/mb/Intel/Z390 Phantom Gaming 9/index.asp#Memory
* 4200-4266MHz or so on Aorus Master: https://www.gigabyte.com/Motherboard/Z390-AORUS-MASTER-rev-10#support-doc
* 4000-4266MHz on Aorus Xtreme: https://www.gigabyte.com/Motherboard/Z390-AORUS-XTREME-rev-10#support-doc
* 4266MHz on Maximus XI Hero: https://dlcdnets.asus.com/pub/ASUS/...IFI/ROG_MAXIMUS_XI_HERO_SERIES_Memory_QVL.pdf
* 4400MHz on Maximus XI Extreme: https://dlcdnets.asus.com/pub/ASUS/.../Memory_QVL_ROG_MAXIMUS_XI_EXTREME_181008.pdf
--> Basically only GSKILL F4-4400C18Q-32*** kits

The Stilt's review showed the ASUS ROG STRIX board lagging behind at 2 DIMMs so you definitely want a 2 DIMM ROG not STRIX board if you buy ASUS.







^ note the difference for 2 Dimms Per Channel with DR (Dual rank) memory. Zero difference with 2 DIMM per channel single rank.


Also note the existence of 4266MHz on the Z390-E STRIX QVL: https://dlcdnets.asus.com/pub/ASUS/...E_GAMING/ROG_Strix_Z390-E_Gaming_QVL_1011.pdf



It's been noted that for Gigabyte boards around the Internet you need something on the memory QVL, if you don't get something on the QVL likely the hidden sub timings are all off.


----------



## stephenn82

asdkj1740 said:


> bought a evga classified k z370 on newegg recently (then realised buying in amazon is $20usd cheaper after my purchase....).
> 
> some interesting figures to me:
> 
> 1. speedfan works with evga fintek F71889A, amazing software allowing me to controll fans according to gpu temp now.
> vs gigabyte ultra gaming 2.0 is not being supported by speedfan sadly.
> 
> 2. i cant get boot into window with default evga bios. cant even see my ssd as a boot drive on evga classified k z370 although all drives are detected. then i have to set to legacy mode in order to activate my ssd boot drive and got booted eventaully.
> vs gigabyte has no issue on locating boot drive.
> 
> 3. cant be stable when 1.35v is set on evga classified k z370 bios.
> vs supprisingly at the same 1.35v on gigabyte ug2.0 my 8700k can run without problems.
> 
> 4. no fcuking options in bios that can raise the tjmax and power/current limit on evga bios...there are only two options for llc, one is enable another one is disable.
> vs gigabyte ug2.0 has them all although the max power draw i can get is ~190w only.
> 
> 5. readings on different super i/o chips & pwm chips & cpu enhanced are different on hwinfo64...i dont know which one is accurate.
> vs hwinfo64 readings on gigabyte ug2.0 are consistent.
> 
> 6. 4pin fan headers on evga classified k z370, but only 3 of them are real pwm controlled, while the rest are dc controlled only. on speedfan reading the fintek io chip it shows 3 fan headers only, indicating only 3 real pwm controlled are controlled by fintek i/o.
> vs. gigabyte has 5 in total and all of them are real pwm controlled fan headers, plus a relatively better fan controll in bios.
> 
> 
> breaking news:
> that guy who bought my ug2.0 has a hof II 4000 8*2 kit, and of course he cant get booted with xmp enabled, but he can manually tweak settings like c19 25 25 25 47 at 1.4v vddr and 1.35v for vccsa &vccio to get 3900mhz...seems the latest f11 gigabyte bios really help in ram oc.
> i was getting 3600c14 stuck on gigabyte 2.0 at older bios, i have never tried the latest f11 bios sadly. i am so regret lol.


I would also concur on what you said about settings max power for turbo. I never found it in the BIOS, but I did however find it in Intel XTU. IT was already at maximum with default bios settings. Disabling vdroop adds about 80mv extra on vcore, so be careful. I really wish that they would allow you to pick a settings other than on or off....which is actually opposite of what it is.
I left mine alone and just set multi to 4.8ghz with 1.25v. it runs at 1.256 with 0 avx offset and temps hit 77-80c. I need to delid this beast  It did run 6 passes of 2gb linpack extreme no issues. max temp was 84c on any of the cores. I am going to attempt less vcore, or go higher on multi. or both.


----------



## marcolisi

Hey guys. Have anyone of installed the ASUS Thermal Sensor Cable on you asus motherboard? I have got the asus maximus XI extreme and the ASUS Thermal Sensor Cable came in the box for free.

Is it worth to use?

Would the led Info screen work without installing this sensor?


----------



## Mdtape

Hi,

can someone please educate me?
I wanted to build in a mATX case with an overclocked 9700k.
I just dont know which Mainboard in this form factor has the VRMs required for this.
The Asus Gene is too expensive for me and i think mATX Mainboards like the gigabyte z390m gaming should be better than itx Mainboards like the Asrock Phantom Gaming itx, because Bigger equals better.
But again, i dont really have a clue and cant find any posts directly comparing the capabillities of the Mainboard VRMs.

Thank you.


----------



## Nephalem89

Hello good afternoon in your opinion buy asus code z390 is a good choice? Sorry I don't decide to buy it z390 motherboard... Where is the best option for overclok choice for overclock 9900k thanks a lot


----------



## stephenn82

Nephalem89 said:


> Hello good afternoon in your opinion buy asus code z390 is a good choice? Sorry I don't decide to buy it z390 motherboard... Where is the best option for overclok choice for overclock 9900k thanks a lot


That is a nice board and would be capable of handling whatever you want to throw at it.


----------



## Wihglah

Nephalem89 said:


> Hello good afternoon in your opinion buy asus code z390 is a good choice? Sorry I don't decide to buy it z390 motherboard... Where is the best option for overclok choice for overclock 9900k thanks a lot



Worst of the Z390 choices.

Expensive trash

Go with Gigabyte


----------



## stephenn82

Wihglah said:


> Worst of the Z390 choices.
> 
> Expensive trash
> 
> Go with Gigabyte


You talk of the Code as if it was the TUF branded boards...lol
The Hero and Code are some top notch boards. Apex and extreme are for those looking to do some crazy LN2 cooling....even the Code is almost to that point.

Not going to knock the Aorus lineup (you meant this by the Gigabyte comment, right?) but I have never owned one. I have been so engrained in Asus BIOS settings, I can set them in my sleep.
Its a learning experience with the newer EVGA one (yucky trash bios for sure)


----------



## tostitobandito

marcolisi said:


> Hey guys. Have anyone of installed the ASUS Thermal Sensor Cable on you asus motherboard? I have got the asus maximus XI extreme and the ASUS Thermal Sensor Cable came in the box for free.
> 
> Is it worth to use?
> 
> Would the led Info screen work without installing this sensor?


Yes, I use one on my M11 Hero. I use it because I want to use GPU temp to control my case fans and the BIOS only has access to the GPU temp if you have an Asus GPU, which I don't. So I ran the sensor to the back of the GPU directly behind the die where it usually reads within 1-2C of the GPU temp. Anyways, all the cable does is add another temp value that you can use in the BIOS or in HWInfo for whatever you please.


----------



## tostitobandito

Wihglah said:


> Worst of the Z390 choices.
> 
> Expensive trash
> 
> Go with Gigabyte


Please expand on that if you will, using objective data. Every single test and user report I've seen indicates that the M11 H/C/F does just fine with non-extreme OC scenarios for the 9900K and is competitive with or better than any of the competing boards in that segment. Yes Asus charges a little bit more than others, however if money is tight you probably aren't in the market for a $280+ MB. The extra $10-20 was worth it for me for the BIOS and Aura alone.


----------



## AlphaC

Mdtape said:


> Hi,
> 
> can someone please educate me?
> I wanted to build in a mATX case with an overclocked 9700k.
> I just dont know which Mainboard in this form factor has the VRMs required for this.
> The Asus Gene is too expensive for me and i think mATX Mainboards like the gigabyte z390m gaming should be better than itx Mainboards like the Asrock Phantom Gaming itx, because Bigger equals better.
> But again, i dont really have a clue and cant find any posts directly comparing the capabillities of the Mainboard VRMs.
> 
> Thank you.


You're better off with the Asrock z390 Phantom ITX rather than a maTX board (other than the ASUS Maximus XI Gene).

The Phantom ITX has a stronger VRM (5x 60A exposed top ISL 99227B powerstages) that is capable of overclocking the i9-9900K , the audio codec is ALC1220 w/ TI AMP, it has Thunderbolt built in as well (albeit the 20Gbps rather than 40Gbps). The only hesitation regarding the Phantom ITX is if you need to split the fan headers more than 3 ways or if you need more than 6 rear USB ports that the USB type C thunderbolt connector can't handle from splitting via a hub.

You don't gain anything on the back panel by going with MSI Z390M edge and the power delivery on that is pretty weak relative to the Phantom ITX (it has 8 sets of mosfets driven by 4 PWM signals , each Onsemi 4c029n/4c024n Powerpak ideally should not run more than ~20-25A each). The only things you really gain are the fan and USB internal headers (one is 3.1) as well as the additional PCIE + M.2 slots. I don't think anyone really use mATX for SLI. If you're into RGB there's supposedly 2 A-RGB headers.


The MSI z390M Mortar is supposed to be a budget version of the Z390M Edge. I don't think the ~$30 cost savings is worth it for all people because you lose quite a few features. The audio is dropped down to ALC892, the SLI support is removed, A-RGB is gone, WIFI is gone, rear output is mostly USB 2.0, and drops one fan header. People looking at the Mortar should be considering the Gigabyte Z390 M Gaming.


The Gigabyte Z390 M Gaming has a decent VRM for its pricepoint (it has 5 phases with doublers with 10 sets of Onsemi 4c10+4c06 Powerpaks) but everything else is rather budget grade (i.e. ALC892 , fan header count, etc) similar to Asrock's mATX Pro4 boards. It's been shown to be able to overclock the i9. Basically if you can put up with ALC892 due to a USB sound solution or can overlook the ALC892 due to the 6 audio outputs (although ALC892 is worse than ALC1220) then this board is usable.

Wouldn't bother with the Asrock z390m Pro4 (it's not even heatsinked at part of the CPU VCORE , audio is poor, power delivery components have 2 variants and both aren't good) , Asus Prime z390m plus (SATA port orientation is poor, audio is garbage, doesn't even have USB type C and the power delivery has been shown to be terrible ... no redeeming qualities essentially) , or the Asus TUF z390M Pro (worse overall and more expensive than the MSI Z390M Edge , also garbage audio outputs if you care about that).

For normal loads (non stress testing) the Asrock Z390 Phantom ITX will be a fair bit cooler than the Z390 mATX boards except for the Gene. For Blender/x264/x265 or stress loads with AVX involved I would not consider the mATX Z390M Edge from MSI and the Gigabyte board typically needs airflow.


----------



## Wihglah

tostitobandito said:


> Please expand on that if you will, using objective data. Every single test and user report I've seen indicates that the M11 H/C/F does just fine with non-extreme OC scenarios for the 9900K and is competitive with or better than any of the competing boards in that segment. Yes Asus charges a little bit more than others, however if money is tight you probably aren't in the market for a $280+ MB. The extra $10-20 was worth it for me for the BIOS and Aura alone.


----------



## KedarWolf

I'm getting a Z390 Aorus Xtreme and after reading the BIOS settings in the manual it's not a huge change from what I'm used to from Asus, really easy to figure out what is what. :thumb:


----------



## stephenn82

It looks like Asus is doing to the Hero line what they have done to the TUF line from the Z77/87 days. REally making it trash. I would expect that VRM from a Prime -A board. not a Maximus board. 
So, the Code or Apex would be better, and cost a lot. The Gaming k7 or Top Aorus model will be great then. Gigabyte has stepped up their game.


----------



## KedarWolf

Decent Gigabyte Z390 overclock guide.


----------



## Abaidor

KedarWolf said:


> Decent Gigabyte Z390 overclock guide.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8rY4TrcDXg



I am really torn between the Gigabyte Aorus Extreme and the Asus Extreme but only because of the UEFI. Besides that the Gigabyte board is a much better board hardware wise (better VRMs & Cooling) and offers more features (10Gbit, Adressable RGB expansion Cars, Fan Controllers).....

I have not bought anything else than Asus for more than 12 years but the Z390 boards from Asus are not the top dogs anymore. With that said, they seem to be doing fine overclocking wise from what I read despite the mediocre VRMs.


----------



## B3MMi

Robbært said:


> Different motherboard not gonna change CPU OC unless we compare with something with trash VRM, like 10x (or even 8x) 4C10 MOSFETs.
> Any z390 board should work fine with 3600 and slower memory.
> Asus need extra cooler and still cost extra money. However it difficult not to assume all OC RAM tested with Asus and should work with.
> 
> As RAM OC it not overclock that well with new -9x00 Intel's.
> And some modules still work fine with new CPU and default VCCSA/VCCIO/dram voltage. Or RAM OC is also silicon lottery now?
> 
> 
> Not true, it paid review at it best.
> Same Asus Z390-E VRM 115C 4.9GHz 9700k link


So you decide what's true and what's not?


----------



## Robbært

B3MMi said:


> So you decide what's true and what's not?


there HD thermal gun image in my link.


----------



## Exilon

asdkj1740 said:


> vrm fan is on?
> and 1.5mm thick aftermarket pad?


From the looks of it, even a 1.5mm pad isn't enough. The motherboard is slightly bowed from CPU heat sink mounting pressure and some power stages are not making good contact. 

Ripping off the decorative covering, applying new pads (this time with paste), and some percussive maintenance improved things at 250W and it can hold 280W at 90C now.

Full power load at the wall seems to have improved by 10-15W... These are supposed to be integrated power stages with temperature sensing and balancing. I guess the few making poor contact were throttled and the rest were working overtime?

Edit: LLC behavior is different too. How strange.


----------



## eric98k

ROG Maximus XI Apex: https://news.mydrivers.com/1/607/607573.htm


----------



## Robbært

eric98k said:


> ROG Maximus XI Apex: https://news.mydrivers.com/1/607/607573.htm


Two PS2 ports.
Are they work in windows 7?


----------



## Dialelo

Hi everyone,


First of all, thank you for reading my first message here. I've been trying to learn about the different MOSFETs used in motherboards' VRM, in order to have a deeper insight of each model characteristics. First I checked this list by @br0da. Then inspected every MOSFET's datasheet to see its values.
My problem comes from a poor understanding of some kind of MOSFETs functioning I guess.


When checking the Sinopower SM4503NHKP datasheet I can see several values for what I understand is the rated output current:
- Diode Continuous Forward Current: 23 A
- Continuous Drain Current: 80 A (Max. continue current is limited by bonding wire)
- Continuous Drain Current: 23.5 A


I guess those are different outputs at different pins of the MOSFET. What I don't understand is how do they combine or how to apply this information to see if this is a stronger MOSFET than some other.
And what's more: looking for more information to try to solve this problem, I found discrepancies in the information regarding this particular MOSFET:


Here it says the SM4503NHKP in the MSI B360M Pro-VDH provides 60A:

https://us.hardware.info/reviews/81...ds-msi-b360m-pro-vdh-a-b360-gaming-pro-carbon


Here it says the SM4503NHKP in the Gainward GeForce GTX 1060 6GB Phoenix GS provides 30A: 

https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/nvidia-geforce-gtx-1060-graphics-card-roundup,4724-5.html


Of course I'm not claiming those pages are wrong. What I'm asking, please, is if someone could explain this to me or refer me to a proper website where I can learn this I can't understand.


Thank you very much!


----------



## AlphaC

http://www.pcgameshardware.de/Mainb...1151-Mainboards-mit-Z390-im-Test-1268602/#a12


---
Dialelo , you need to look at RDS(on) and Q_G or rise/fall times (T_r, T_f). The RDS(on) is more important for low side fet while the Q_G (total gate charge) and rise/fall times matter more for the high side fet. Those are the largest metrics and typically labeled "figures of merit". The maximum current will depend on temperature and also the output voltage.

see https://www.electronicdesign.com/power/figure-merit-refresher-course , https://eepower.com/semiconductors/rethinking-power-mosfet-figure-merit-vishay-siliconix-842







(TCR = temperature coefficient of resistance)

For higher efficiency solutions typically the RDS(on) is below 2-3milliohms. For fastest switching times it's usually under 20ns rise (for example TI NexFET , Infineon Optimos 5, or Fairchild Powerblock FDPC5030SG). Really fast mosfets such as Infineon Optimos or TI NexFET usually have < 10nC Q_G. It's also true for the Fairchils FDPC5030SG or Sinopower SM7341EHKP powerblock when run at 4.5 V_GS.

Low RDs(on) Powerpaks with separate high and low side such as on cheaper boards are usually around 4-6 milliohms RDS(on) with switching times in the 25ns-35ns rise time area.
examples: UBIQ QN3103 +QN3107 , Vishay SiRA14DP+SiRA12DP, Onsemi 4C09N+4C06N , Sinowpower SM4337+SM4336 , Sinopower SM4377+SM4364

You'll notice some anomalies such as the very slow rise time on the Vishay ZF906 powerblock with 35ns typical rise time, but efficiency-wise it makes up for this via the ~1milliohm on state resistance which is far lower than that of separate high+low side fet.


Realistically the SM4503 low side fet you linked is no good for more than 20-25A and that's true for most Low RDS(on) powerpaks with air cooling rather than a waterblock. What this means in practice is that it is inadvisable to push over 160W on a board with 4 phases of SM4337+SM4503 "fake doubled".


Hope that helps.


--------------

Edge AC review at playwares, Prime95 needs airflow to be below 105°C , it's 103°C with 5GHz Prime95 AVX and an AIO

http://playwares.com/pcreview/57084485#

---

Gigabyte launched a Z390 M recently , which is probably what the Z390 M Gaming would have been if there wasn't a full lineup overhaul:
https://www.gigabyte.com/Motherboard/Z390-M-rev-10#kf
(4+2 phase Low RDS(on) with a push pin heatsink, i.e. not i7/i9 material if you want to overclock at all)
* non-power delivery wise it's mediocre : the USB type C at rear panel is 3.1 gen 2, it's using ALC892 unsurprisingly, and there's only 4 fan headers
* would have been a reasonable offering if the USB 3.1 gen 2 type C was retained , I can't imagine this board being cheap enough to justify downgrading.

It'd be interesting to see how it stacks up to the ASUS Prime Z390-P or the cheapest mATX boards from MSI + Asrock. I have a feeling it should be better than the Asrock Pro4 but likely worse than the the Tomahawk & Mortar (which has 4c029n+4c024n with a screwed in heatsink).


----------



## Feklar

Robbært said:


> Two PS2 ports.
> Are they work in windows 7?


It won't work. I tried for days to load win7 pro with a z390 with no success. USB 2 ports will be disabled as soon as you get to the desktop. It wouldn't even let me install USB 3 drivers saying the system did not meet the minimum requirements. I finally gave up.


----------



## KedarWolf

Feklar said:


> It won't work. I tried for days to load win7 pro with a z390 with no success. USB 2 ports will be disabled as soon as you get to the desktop. It wouldn't even let me install USB 3 drivers saying the system did not meet the minimum requirements. I finally gave up.


https://www.win-raid.com/t834f25-USB-Drivers-original-and-modded.html


----------



## eric98k

Der8auer: Z390 Aorus Master - Aka the VRM Master (en)


----------



## elmor

Robostyle said:


> Well, yeah, that's what i was thinking about. I still can't figure (at least, in case it's not corporation's top floor greed), why M11EX got vrm simpler than, for instance, M8EX..and I can't say infineon mosfets are that much worse/bulky/ineffective, than IR one provided for newest extreme





Feklar said:


> It won't work. I tried for days to load win7 pro with a z390 with no success. USB 2 ports will be disabled as soon as you get to the desktop. It wouldn't even let me install USB 3 drivers saying the system did not meet the minimum requirements. I finally gave up.


Windows 7 works with some caveats. The Intel Z390 USB controller don't have working Windows 7 drivers, not sure if it's possible with modifications. On-board 3rd party USB controllers from Asmedia works, which are present on M11G and A. Maybe on others as well, I've only tested those two. Or PCI-E cards with USB controllers from Asmedia/NEC/others.


----------



## Mdtape

AlphaC said:


> You're better off with the Asrock z390 Phantom ITX rather than a maTX board (other than the ASUS Maximus XI Gene).
> 
> The Phantom ITX has a stronger VRM (5x 60A exposed top ISL 99227B powerstages) that is capable of overclocking the i9-9900K , the audio codec is ALC1220 w/ TI AMP, it has Thunderbolt built in as well (albeit the 20Gbps rather than 40Gbps). The only hesitation regarding the Phantom ITX is if you need to split the fan headers more than 3 ways or if you need more than 6 rear USB ports that the USB type C thunderbolt connector can't handle from splitting via a hub.
> 
> You don't gain anything on the back panel by going with MSI Z390M edge and the power delivery on that is pretty weak relative to the Phantom ITX (it has 8 sets of mosfets driven by 4 PWM signals , each Onsemi 4c029n/4c024n Powerpak ideally should not run more than ~20-25A each). The only things you really gain are the fan and USB internal headers (one is 3.1) as well as the additional PCIE + M.2 slots. I don't think anyone really use mATX for SLI. If you're into RGB there's supposedly 2 A-RGB headers.
> 
> 
> The MSI z390M Mortar is supposed to be a budget version of the Z390M Edge. I don't think the ~$30 cost savings is worth it for all people because you lose quite a few features. The audio is dropped down to ALC892, the SLI support is removed, A-RGB is gone, WIFI is gone, rear output is mostly USB 2.0, and drops one fan header. People looking at the Mortar should be considering the Gigabyte Z390 M Gaming.
> 
> 
> The Gigabyte Z390 M Gaming has a decent VRM for its pricepoint (it has 5 phases with doublers with 10 sets of Onsemi 4c10+4c06 Powerpaks) but everything else is rather budget grade (i.e. ALC892 , fan header count, etc) similar to Asrock's mATX Pro4 boards. It's been shown to be able to overclock the i9. Basically if you can put up with ALC892 due to a USB sound solution or can overlook the ALC892 due to the 6 audio outputs (although ALC892 is worse than ALC1220) then this board is usable.
> 
> Wouldn't bother with the Asrock z390m Pro4 (it's not even heatsinked at part of the CPU VCORE , audio is poor, power delivery components have 2 variants and both aren't good) , Asus Prime z390m plus (SATA port orientation is poor, audio is garbage, doesn't even have USB type C and the power delivery has been shown to be terrible ... no redeeming qualities essentially) , or the Asus TUF z390M Pro (worse overall and more expensive than the MSI Z390M Edge , also garbage audio outputs if you care about that).
> 
> For normal loads (non stress testing) the Asrock Z390 Phantom ITX will be a fair bit cooler than the Z390 mATX boards except for the Gene. For Blender/x264/x265 or stress loads with AVX involved I would not consider the mATX Z390M Edge from MSI and the Gigabyte board typically needs airflow.


Thank you. You should publish this somewhere, this is great information. Could you tell me a Motherboard thats not from Gigabyte in atx format which would perfom similarly? To get a feel for the phantom gaming itx s Value.


----------



## tostitobandito

*Maximus XI Hero/Code/Formula VRM temps.*

A new version of HWinfo just came out which has the VRM sensor enabled for these boards for the first time. I fired up Prime95 small FFT full blast for 5-10 min or so with my case fans on their standard profile and the hottest my VRM got was 59C. Under a longer test I could see maybe low-mid 60's before it levels off. This was with a 9900K @ 5.1Ghz running with 1.305v vcore setting, pulling in excess of 200W under load.

Do with this what you will, but it seems to me like the VRM temps are fine as long as you have reasonable case airflow. In my case the rear/top exhausts right by the VRM heatsink seem to do a good job at pulling the cool air through them.


----------



## FedeX299I57640X

So what us the vrm in the formula in the extreme and in the godlike?


----------



## Wihglah

FedeX299I57640X said:


> So what us the vrm in the formula in the extreme and in the godlike?


Formula is a joke


----------



## Mdtape

Is there an updated Version of this tier List? https://www.overclock.net/forum/27657582-post2156.html#/topics/1638955?page=216&gid=1&pid=1


----------



## FedeX299I57640X

Wihglah said:


> Formula is a joke


So for me that is the first loop with this motherboard is an Ideal motherboard?


----------



## Jspinks020

Well if you think the Higher resistance and Impedance helps or not. But that is Supressive and shielding like. Same similar sort of scaling in Lv 1 or 2megs is already really high.


----------



## tostitobandito

FedeX299I57640X said:


> So for me that is the first loop with this motherboard is an Ideal motherboard?



Don't feed the troll.


----------



## Sheyster

eric98k said:


> Der8auer: Z390 Aorus Master - Aka the VRM Master (en)
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=10J4oWL6Jt0



No doubt that the VRM's are great on the Z390 Gigabyte boards. Unfortunately high-speed DDR4 memory support is terrible. If you're targeting 4000+ memory speeds be prepared to spend lots of time and probably fail in the end.


----------



## asdkj1740

Sheyster said:


> No doubt that the VRM's are great on the Z390 Gigabyte boards. Unfortunately high-speed DDR4 memory support is terrible. If you're targeting 4000+ memory speeds be prepared to spend lots of time and probably fail in the end.


a big bios update is coming soon a month later


----------



## AlphaC

FedeX299I57640X said:


> So what us the vrm in the formula in the extreme and in the godlike?


 Godlike is using top tier VRM but it simply isn't worth the cost (16x 60A TDA21462 Powerstages via doublers) unless you plan on using it as a WIFI accesspoint. It's the same as Aorus Xtreme but with a worse heatsink , no backplate , no 10GBps LAN (easily $70-100), and lack of Thunderbolt (worth $60-100 easily). Similarly I'd find it hard to rationalize the Aorus Xtreme Waterforce since the Xtreme already runs incredibly cool as shown by hicookie (Gigabyte's inhouse overclocker) : it's more of a Veblen good at $900. The Aorus Xtreme's backplate also uses heatpipes, so it isn't only dissipating heat to the air but also via phase change of the working fluid.

The ROG Maximus XI Extreme is using 10x IR3555 60A powerstages and per elmor there's no doublers. Functionally I would buy the Apex over the Extreme. If you look at the memory overclocking done, it's higher on Apex and Gene. The backplate on the Extreme is only aesthetic, it doesn't cover the back of the VRM section and has no thermal properties.

The ROG Maximus XI Formula is essentially verbatim from the Hero (8x Sic639 50A powerstages) , you're paying for the VRM block + backplate and fluff features.



Mdtape said:


> Is there an updated Version of this tier List? https://www.overclock.net/forum/27657582-post2156.html#/topics/1638955?page=216&gid=1&pid=1


Other than putting Gigabyte Z390 M non gaming (likely 4 phase board with 4 sets of mosfets or doubled low side) in the red section , there's nothing of note that is worth changing. If there's more information on the MSI Tomahawk & Phantom Gaming 6 I'll move them around a bit if necessary. Until there's more definitive information I will leave it as is.

The recent video by der8auer and the testing done by Hwinfo NL suggests Godlike / Extreme / Gene are better for situations where the power draw exceeds that of air/AIO level water (> 250W) but worse than the well heatsinked Aorus Master in real situations. I saw a recent zero airflow test on xfastest where the Aorus Pro hit 90°C with a Asetek style closed loop water cooler only at 260W , it was below 80°C at ~210W. It just happens that the CPU will likely roast (on ambient) before the Aorus Master becomes a concern , as 90% efficiency is maintained up until 25A per powerstage which is ~300A for that board as it uses 12 of them. _Keep in mind that the Intel spec is 193A for 8 cores and 138A for 6 cores_. The testing by a user on OCN with a reworked z370 Gaming 7 using 8x ISL9927B powerstages ($7 each versus <$2 each) as opposed to the 12x SiC634 used on the Aorus Pro performed similarly.

For the ROG Extreme/Gene the IR3555 is likely 90% efficient up to 40-45A per powerstage (~400-450A for the whole power delivery) based off IR3550 numbers, but the contention comes from the weaker heatsinking and the lack of doubling scheme. Even if peak power it is capable of is higher, the heat density is higher due to fewer powerstages in addition to the worse heatsinking. In addition, you would need to exceed Intel spec for that to be relevant (likely over 300W to the CPU) and require immense cooling either subzero or a ridiculous custom water loop just for the CPU. Most users hitting 200W or so already reach ~95°C on the CPU and multiple instances I have seen people exceed 105°C (the default TJMax) on the CPU with 250W.

The thing to remember is that any weak cooler will heat the board higher due to the CPU heat also going into the PCB. You're combating both the excess heat from the CPU as well as that from the power delivery to it. As you scale your CPU cooling you also relieve heat from the power delivery. The conduction of the copper in the PCB is massively higher than the fluid in a loop , the liquid cooler's radiator to the air, or from an air cooler to the air. That is what makes the Aorus Master's backplate effective.

I'm pretty impressed by the increase in overall featureset & power delivery on the Aorus Xtreme (~$550), Aorus Master ($250-300 typically), and Pro (~$180-200) at their respective pricepoints. There's minor differences noted such as PCB layers or whatnot, but for the average user with 1 GPU and one or two M.2 the Pro is already capable of doing what they need to do , short of > 4 GHz memory which is extremely niche and CPU quality dependent. The Aorus Master has been seen clocking memory to 4500MHz, so that's definitely possible and for people that actually intend to extensively finetune overclock their memory the "single BIOS" switch is more of a necessity.
* There's a $10-15 premium from the Aorus Elite to the Aorus Pro. The Aorus Elite lacks a heatpipe at the VRM heatsink, is using Apaq Taiwanese capacitors rather than Japanese FP caps, has lower number of fan headers, and also lacks USB 3.1 gen 2 type C at the rear panel. I don't feel that going $10-15 cheaper is worth it for this reason.

ASUS has sort of a PR crisis with the ROG series this time around but for most people the difference is minor to what was implemented on Z370 especially with the older slower Vishay ZF906 powerblock variant. PCBs were reworked and measurement of voltage was reworked but ultimately overall the boards haven't been as thoroughly overhauled.

The Taichi was reworked a slight bit from Sinopower/Fairchild variants to only TI NexFET powerblocks with doublers. This means a higher peak efficiency as the switch times are quicker ; the RDS(on) is relatively similar.

Not really sure of the reasoning that MSI had to keep using Onsemi powerpaks on their $300 MSI MEG Ace. It was a poor decision and has led to a price drop early on to ~$260. They sort of get away with it due to the ASUS PR fiasco and the larger VRM heatsink. There's room to cut the price further due to the cost of making it and as the Taichi and Aorus Ultra are both performing roughly on par and have 3 M.2 and debug code LEDs.

That's not to say the midrange Asus Z390-E STRIX , Asrock Phantom Gaming 6, or the MSI Edge AC (ATX version) are terrible. The Z390-E is a rework from Z370 , eschewing the 8 sets of low RDS(on) mosfets for 8x 45A Onsemi powerstages (some have the Vishay 50A ones too), despite retaining 5K hour Taiwanese Apaq capacitors. I just don't find the value proposition as strong for these three midrange boards because they don't exist in a vacuum. The MSI Pro Carbon is an anomaly in that it is worse thermally than the MSI Edge as shown on multiple sites, with the only notable upgrade being the WIFI speed. Asrock dropped the IR35201 from Z370 K6 in favor of UPI semi's UPI9521 , albeit retaining the same 2 variants of powerblocks. As it (the UPI PWM) is used on the midrange MSI edge and pro carbon there's no reason to believe it's superior to the IR35201 which are used on the higher end boards.

The Asrock Extreme4 has the issue of not having any debug features whatsoever other than the dual BIOS. If it retained the Debug Code LED from the Phantom Gaming 6 it'd be a far better board. Another odd design choice it and the Phantom Gaming 6 have is the lack of extra USB on the rear panel (6 total only , although all are USB 3.0 and 3.1) and the inclusion of D-sub display output on a Z390 board.

While non Aorus boards from Gigabyte such as the Gaming SLI , Gaming X, and M Gaming are adequate, you'd be well advised to pay attention to the featuresets.

Lower than that in the product stacks you're looking at boards that are iffy if you intend to run any AVX workloads (such as Handbrake x264 or Blender) while overclocked. The Z390 Edge mATX and Tomahawk from MSI aren't proven yet , I've only seen one or two reviews. The STRIX Z390-H is an outright cash grab based on its specs vs its naming, the Z390 Phantom SLI/ac has been shown to throttle even in AIDA64. TUF boards carry an ASUS premium but otherwise aren't noteworthy.

For ITX however, the Asrock Z390 Phantom ITX is definitely the board to get : it's the only one with Thunderbolt and the only one with a power delivery that truly won't limit you on ambient. Stepping down from mATX to ITX means the audio is typically slimmed down in footprint , which is meaningless to the people that claim USB DAC is the only way to truly isolate audio. The 2nd M.2 slot is retained on all Z390 ITX (ASUS STRIX, Gigabyte Aorus ITX, MSI edge). USB count at the rear panel between mATX and ITX is relatively the same (except the ROG Gene) and worst case with the Phantom ITX you can use the Thunderbolt with a hub for more USB ports.


----------



## FedeX299I57640X

AlphaC said:


> Godlike is using top tier VRM but it simply isn't worth the cost (16x 60A TDA21462 Powerstages via doublers) unless you plan on using it as a WIFI accesspoint. It's the same as Aorus Xtreme but with a worse heatsink , no backplate , no 10GBps LAN (easily $70-100), and lack of Thunderbolt (worth $60-100 easily). Similarly I'd find it hard to rationalize the Aorus Xtreme Waterforce since the Xtreme already runs incredibly cool as shown by hicookie (Gigabyte's inhouse overclocker) : it's more of a Veblen good at $900. The Aorus Xtreme's backplate also uses heatpipes, so it isn't only dissipating heat to the air but also via phase change of the working fluid.
> 
> The ROG Maximus XI Extreme is using 10x IR3555 60A powerstages and per elmor there's no doublers. Functionally I would buy the Apex over the Extreme. If you look at the memory overclocking done, it's higher on Apex and Gene. The backplate on the Extreme is only aesthetic, it doesn't cover the back of the VRM section and has no thermal properties.
> 
> The ROG Maximus XI Formula is essentially verbatim from the Hero (8x Sic639 50A powerstages) , you're paying for the VRM block + backplate and fluff features.
> 
> Other than putting Gigabyte Z390 M non gaming (likely 4 phase board with 4 sets of mosfets or doubled low side) in the red section , there's nothing of note that is worth changing. If there's more information on the MSI Tomahawk & Phantom Gaming 6 I'll move them around a bit if necessary. Until there's more definitive information I will leave it as is.
> 
> The recent video by der8auer and the testing done by Hwinfo NL suggests Godlike / Extreme / Gene are better for situations where the power draw exceeds that of air/AIO level water (> 250W) but worse than the well heatsinked Aorus Master in real situations. I saw a recent zero airflow test on xfastest where the Aorus Pro hit 90°C with a Asetek style closed loop water cooler only at 260W , it was below 80°C at ~210W. It just happens that the CPU will likely roast (on ambient) before the Aorus Master becomes a concern , as 90% efficiency is maintained up until 25A per powerstage which is ~300A for that board as it uses 12 of them. _Keep in mind that the Intel spec is 193A for 8 cores and 138A for 6 cores_. The testing by a user on OCN with a reworked z370 Gaming 7 using 8x ISL9927B powerstages ($7 each versus <$2 each) as opposed to the 12x SiC634 used on the Aorus Pro performed similarly.
> 
> For the ROG Extreme/Gene the IR3555 is likely 90% efficient up to 40-45A per powerstage (~400-450A for the whole power delivery) based off IR3550 numbers, but the contention comes from the weaker heatsinking and the lack of doubling scheme. Even if peak power it is capable of is higher, the heat density is higher due to fewer powerstages in addition to the worse heatsinking. In addition, you would need to exceed Intel spec for that to be relevant (likely over 300W to the CPU) and require immense cooling either subzero or a ridiculous custom water loop just for the CPU. Most users hitting 200W or so already reach ~95°C on the CPU and multiple instances I have seen people exceed 105°C (the default TJMax) on the CPU with 250W.
> 
> The thing to remember is that any weak cooler will heat the board higher due to the CPU heat also going into the PCB. You're combating both the excess heat from the CPU as well as that from the power delivery to it. As you scale your CPU cooling you also relieve heat from the power delivery. The conduction of the copper in the PCB is massively higher than the fluid in a loop , the liquid cooler's radiator to the air, or from an air cooler to the air. That is what makes the Aorus Master's backplate effective.
> 
> I'm pretty impressed by the increase in overall featureset & power delivery on the Aorus Xtreme (~$550), Aorus Master ($250-300 typically), and Pro (~$180-200) at their respective pricepoints. There's minor differences noted such as PCB layers or whatnot, but for the average user with 1 GPU and one or two M.2 the Pro is already capable of doing what they need to do , short of > 4 GHz memory which is extremely niche and CPU quality dependent. The Aorus Master has been seen clocking memory to 4500MHz, so that's definitely possible and for people that actually intend to extensively finetune overclock their memory the "single BIOS" switch is more of a necessity.
> * There's a $10-15 premium from the Aorus Elite to the Aorus Pro. The Aorus Elite lacks a heatpipe at the VRM heatsink, is using Apaq Taiwanese capacitors rather than Japanese FP caps, has lower number of fan headers, and also lacks USB 3.1 gen 2 type C at the rear panel. I don't feel that going $10-15 cheaper is worth it for this reason.
> 
> ASUS has sort of a PR crisis with the ROG series this time around but for most people the difference is minor to what was implemented on Z370 especially with the older slower Vishay ZF906 powerblock variant. PCBs were reworked and measurement of voltage was reworked but ultimately overall the boards haven't been as thoroughly overhauled.
> 
> The Taichi was reworked a slight bit from Sinopower/Fairchild variants to only TI NexFET powerblocks with doublers. This means a higher peak efficiency as the switch times are quicker ; the RDS(on) is relatively similar.
> 
> Not really sure of the reasoning that MSI had to keep using Onsemi powerpaks on their $300 MSI MEG Ace. It was a poor decision and has led to a price drop early on to ~$260. They sort of get away with it due to the ASUS PR fiasco and the larger VRM heatsink. There's room to cut the price further due to the cost of making it and as the Taichi and Aorus Ultra are both performing roughly on par and have 3 M.2 and debug code LEDs.
> 
> That's not to say the midrange Asus Z390-E STRIX , Asrock Phantom Gaming 6, or the MSI Edge AC (ATX version) are terrible. The Z390-E is a rework from Z370 , eschewing the 8 sets of low RDS(on) mosfets for 8x 45A Onsemi powerstages (some have the Vishay 50A ones too), despite retaining 5K hour Taiwanese Apaq capacitors. I just don't find the value proposition as strong for these three midrange boards because they don't exist in a vacuum. The MSI Pro Carbon is an anomaly in that it is worse thermally than the MSI Edge as shown on multiple sites, with the only notable upgrade being the WIFI speed. Asrock dropped the IR35201 from Z370 K6 in favor of UPI semi's UPI9521 , albeit retaining the same 2 variants of powerblocks. As it (the UPI PWM) is used on the midrange MSI edge and pro carbon there's no reason to believe it's superior to the IR35201 which are used on the higher end boards.
> 
> The Asrock Extreme4 has the issue of not having any debug features whatsoever other than the dual BIOS. If it retained the Debug Code LED from the Phantom Gaming 6 it'd be a far better board.
> 
> While non Aorus boards from Gigabyte such as the Gaming SLI , Gaming X, and M Gaming are adequate, you'd be well advised to pay attention to the featuresets.
> 
> Lower than that in the product stacks you're looking at boards that are iffy if you intend to run any AVX workloads (such as Handbrake x264 or Blender) while overclocked. The Z390 Edge mATX and Tomahawk from MSI aren't proven yet , I've only seen one or two reviews. The STRIX Z390-H is an outright cash grab based on its specs vs its naming, the Z390 Phantom SLI/ac has been shown to throttle even in AIDA64. TUF boards carry an ASUS premium but otherwise aren't noteworthy.
> 
> For ITX however, the Asrock Z390 Phantom ITX is definitely the board to get : it's the only one with Thunderbolt and the only one with a power delivery that truly won't limit you on ambient. Stepping down from mATX to ITX means the audio is typically slimmed down in footprint , which is meaningless to the people that claim USB DAC is the only way to truly isolate audio. The 2nd M.2 slot is retained on all Z390 ITX (ASUS STRIX, Gigabyte Aorus ITX, MSI edge). USB count at the rear panel between mATX and ITX is relatively the same (except the ROG Gene) and worst case with the Phantom ITX you can use the Thunderbolt with a hub for more USB ports.


Thanks for the clarification id go for aorus z390 xtreme and for the cpu i5 9600k or 9700k and for the water cooling i go for ek/alphacool kit 240/280 or 360 my case is 1 h500m from cooler master!


----------



## AlphaC

FedeX299I57640X said:


> Thanks for the clarification id go for aorus z390 xtreme and for the cpu i5 9600k or 9700k and for the water cooling i go for ek/alphacool kit 240/280 or 360 my case is 1 h500m from cooler master!


There's a $150 or less premium from i7 to i9 though.

To be honest the Aorus Xtreme is utter overkill for most users. If you're _not_ getting an i9 I'd probably drop it to Aorus Master or Aorus Ultra if not lower (Aorus Pro) as you'd gain more than 20% from hyperthreading in well-threaded situations versus overclocking it from the typical 4.3-4.7GHz (depends on TDP limit) to 5 or 5.1GHz. Designare is a decent choice if you want Thunderbolt as the price premium isn't large versus buying it separate and the overall IO panel (and interior airflow) will be much cleaner with it already integrated.

If you're going for the i7 you can probably save some money with the Swiftech Drive X3 AIO 240/280/360 or the Alphacool Eisbaer LT 240/360 or Eisbaer 280/360/420 (for the Euro people since they don't pay the ridiculous shipping of $40-50) as those won't cost as much as any EK kit that's using the SPC-60 MX 6W pump (Aluminum ripoff kits, MLC Phoenix AIO kits, or those SE slim kits withSPC-60 MX pump) yet perform on par or better. Someone over on the watercooling section found this one for $150 for example: https://www.amazon.com/Swiftech-H280-X3-Edge-Prestige/dp/B07JG9YGDG and it's a bargain when you consider the 240 version without the compression fittings or eloops is $140 on Newegg: https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835108222

The i5-9600K is a poor choice with an Aorus Xtreme, since for the extra price of the motherboard you could easily get an i9 + Z390 Aorus Master or Z390 Aorus Ultra. Hexcores will only use up to 138A per Intel spec which is attainable on just about any decent Z390 board. It's also a poor choice to watercool it with a custom loop unless you plan on a i7 / i9 in the future.

To put it into perspective, Puget systems uses the Z390 Aorus Pro for their workstation builds these days and prior to that they used the Z370 Gaming 5. They're one of the only system integrators to provide thermal imaging of every build. In the past they often would use the ASUS Prime "A" midrange board (for example the Z270-A , Z170-A, Z97-A, P8Z77-V Pro , or Prime X370 Pro), so I would use their choice as a baseline as they need to provide lifetime labor support to their customers.

To break it down numerically:
Cost of i9-9900K = $540 on average , Aorus Pro is $180 or so , Aorus Master is ~$240 at the moment which is really reasonable, the Aorus Ultra is ~$230 (Designare is ~$270). Total is anywhere ~$700-800
--> there's competing boards such as the recently price dropped Z390 Phantom Gaming 6 that have dipped to $165 , the Aorus Elite ~$160, Z390-A ~$175, Taichi ~ $230, STRIX Z390-E at ~$235, just as a note

Cost of i7-9700K = $400 or so , Aorus Xtreme is $550 typically --> total = $950

So keep that in mind. You can get a board that won't hold you back on ambient (Aorus master/Ultra/Designare) with an i9 and be ahead price-wise of a i7 with Aorus Xtreme.


----------



## FedeX299I57640X

AlphaC said:


> There's a $150 or less premium from i7 to i9 though.
> 
> To be honest the Aorus Xtreme is utter overkill for most users. If you're _not_ getting an i9 I'd probably drop it to Aorus Master or Aorus Ultra if not lower (Aorus Pro) as you'd gain more than 20% from hyperthreading in well-threaded situations versus overclocking it from the typical 4.3-4.7GHz (depends on TDP limit) to 5 or 5.1GHz. Designare is a decent choice if you want Thunderbolt as the price premium isn't large versus buying it separate and the overall IO panel (and interior airflow) will be much cleaner with it already integrated.
> 
> If you're going for the i7 you can probably save some money with the Swiftech Drive X3 AIO 240/280/360 or the Alphacool Eisbaer LT 240/360 or Eisbaer 280/360/420 (for the Euro people since they don't pay the ridiculous shipping of $40-50) as those won't cost as much as any EK kit that's using the SPC-60 MX 6W pump (Aluminum ripoff kits, MLC Phoenix AIO kits, or those SE slim kits withSPC-60 MX pump) yet perform on par or better. Someone over on the watercooling section found this one for $150 for example: https://www.amazon.com/Swiftech-H280-X3-Edge-Prestige/dp/B07JG9YGDG and it's a bargain when you consider the 240 version without the compression fittings or eloops is $140 on Newegg: https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835108222
> 
> The i5-9600K is a poor choice with an Aorus Xtreme, since for the extra price of the motherboard you could easily get an i9 + Z390 Aorus Master or Z390 Aorus Ultra. Hexcores will only use up to 138A per Intel spec which is attainable on just about any decent Z390 board. It's also a poor choice to watercool it with a custom loop unless you plan on a i7 / i9 in the future.
> 
> To put it into perspective, Puget systems uses the Z390 Aorus Pro for their workstation builds these days and prior to that they used the Z370 Gaming 5. They're one of the only system integrators to provide thermal imaging of every build. In the past they often would use the ASUS Prime "A" midrange board (for example the Z270-A , Z170-A, Z97-A, P8Z77-V Pro , or Prime X370 Pro), so I would use their choice as a baseline as they need to provide lifetime labor support to their customers.
> 
> To break it down numerically:
> Cost of i9-9900K = $540 on average , Aorus Pro is $180 or so , Aorus Master is ~$240 at the moment which is really reasonable, the Aorus Ultra is ~$230 (Designare is ~$270). Total is anywhere ~$700-800
> --> there's competing boards such as the recently price dropped Z390 Phantom Gaming 6 that have dipped to $165 , the Aorus Elite ~$160, Z390-A ~$175, Taichi ~ $230, STRIX Z390-E at ~$235, just as a note
> 
> Cost of i7-9700K = $400 or so , Aorus Xtreme is $550 typically --> total = $950
> 
> So keep that in mind. You can get a board that won't hold you back on ambient (Aorus master/Ultra/Designare) with an i9 and be ahead price-wise of a i7 with Aorus Xtreme.


Ok thanks at the moment i have make the the order of aorus z390 xtreme then the kit liquid and the ram for the last the CPU!


----------



## Wihglah

FedeX299I57640X said:


> So for me that is the first loop with this motherboard is an Ideal motherboard?



Do 

Not

Get

An

Asus Z390 Motherboard. Of ANY type.

They have the worst VRM implementation

Get a Gigabyte Aurus - Gigabyte have the best VRM implementation.


edit - oh you already did - excellent.


----------



## FedeX299I57640X

Wihglah said:


> Do
> 
> Not
> 
> Get
> 
> An
> 
> Asus Z390 Motherboard. Of ANY type.
> 
> They have the worst VRM implementation
> 
> Get a Gigabyte Aurus - Gigabyte have the best VRM implementation.
> 
> 
> edit - oh you already did - excellent.


Yes aorus z390 xtreme is on the way [emoji48]


----------



## The Pook

Wihglah said:


> Do
> 
> Not
> 
> Get
> 
> An
> 
> Asus Z390 Motherboard. Of ANY type.
> 
> They have the worst VRM implementation
> 
> Get a Gigabyte Aurus - Gigabyte have the best VRM implementation.
> 
> 
> edit - oh you already did - excellent.




I almost ordered a Aorus Z390 Pro last night, I was trying to make the Christmas cut-off date for delivery since my rig decided to die unexpectedly super late last night. Newegg has a combo deal for both the Aorus Pro and Aorus Elite along with the 9900K for ~$700.

Ended up grabbing a AsRock Z390 Taichi instead for about $60 more, pretty much solely for the fancy clear-CMOS button on the rear I/O and the fact I hate Gigabyte's BIOSes. 

(the good things I've heard about the Taichi helped too)


----------



## chowbaby

Wihglah said:


> Do
> 
> Not
> 
> Get
> 
> An
> 
> Asus Z390 Motherboard. Of ANY type.
> 
> They have the worst VRM implementation
> 
> Get a Gigabyte Aurus - Gigabyte have the best VRM implementation.
> 
> 
> edit - oh you already did - excellent.


Are you going to get rid of your formula then?


----------



## tostitobandito

Wihglah said:


> Do
> 
> Not
> 
> Get
> 
> An
> 
> Asus Z390 Motherboard. Of ANY type.
> 
> They have the worst VRM implementation
> 
> Get a Gigabyte Aurus - Gigabyte have the best VRM implementation.
> 
> 
> edit - oh you already did - excellent.


Dude, go away. We get it, you have some sort of vendetta against Asus.

Everyone else, the Asus Z390 boards are fine. Whether they are worth the price premium over other boards is up for debate depending on which features you value, but the VRM is fine for any realistic overclocking scenario up to and including custom loop cooling. As others have said, you have to balance the full feature set not just the VRM. Once you get to the $250+ boards all the VRM's are generally way overbuilt for any non-extreme overclocking and the real-life differences will be negligable between them. Most of you are not going to be pushing the 250+ amps through your VRM that you'd need to in order to start finding the limits of any of these higher-end VRM configurations, because nobody can cool that without an icebox, dry ice, LN2, etc...


----------



## Wihglah

tostitobandito said:


> Dude, go away. We get it, you have some sort of vendetta against Asus.
> 
> Everyone else, the Asus Z390 boards are fine. Whether they are worth the price premium over other boards is up for debate depending on which features you value, but the VRM is fine for any realistic overclocking scenario up to and including custom loop cooling. As others have said, you have to balance the full feature set not just the VRM. Once you get to the $250+ boards all the VRM's are generally way overbuilt for any non-extreme overclocking and the real-life differences will be negligable between them. Most of you are not going to be pushing the 250+ amps through your VRM that you'd need to in order to start finding the limits of any of these higher-end VRM configurations, because nobody can cool that without an icebox, dry ice, LN2, etc...


I will go wherever the hell I like.

Asus are pedaling 4 phase VRMs on top end motherboards and lieing about it.




chowbaby said:


> Are you going to get rid of your formula then?



I cannot afford to do that unfortunately.


----------



## scracy

The Pook said:


> I almost ordered a Aorus Z390 Pro last night, I was trying to make the Christmas cut-off date for delivery since my rig decided to die unexpectedly super late last night. Newegg has a combo deal for both the Aorus Pro and Aorus Elite along with the 9900K for ~$700.
> 
> Ended up grabbing a AsRock Z390 Taichi instead for about $60 more, pretty much solely for the fancy clear-CMOS button on the rear I/O and* the fact I hate Gigabyte's BIOSes.
> *
> (the good things I've heard about the Taichi helped too)


+1 to that Gigabyte UEFI is the worst period, always has been.


----------



## The Pook

Wihglah said:


> I will go wherever the hell I like.
> 
> Asus are pedaling 4 phase VRMs on top end motherboards and lieing about it..



What? The WS Z390 Pro/Maximus XI Gene are high end and have plenty competent VRMs and aren't 4 phase. Their cheap boards, sure ... but pretty much everyone but Gigabyte and AsRock seem to have crappy cheap Z390 boards when to comes to VRM (the Z390 UD is kinda bad, but it's also only ~$130).



scracy said:


> +1 to that Gigabyte UEFI is the worst period, always has been.



Kind of a shame, they seem to have the best VRM at every price point just about it seems.


----------



## scracy

The Pook said:


> What? The WS Z390 Pro/Maximus XI Gene are high end and have plenty competent VRMs and aren't 4 phase. Their cheap boards, sure ... but pretty much everyone but Gigabyte and AsRock seem to have crappy cheap Z390 boards when to comes to VRM (the Z390 UD is kinda bad, but it's also only ~$130).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Kind of a shame, they seem to have the best VRM at every price point just about it seems.


I have owned several Gigabyte boards and never had an issue with Gigabyte on a hardware level but yeah UEFI has never been good and has always had bugs that never seem to get fixed. Never had an issue with Asrock or ROG except on occasions with an early UEFI which Asus seem to fix pretty quickly in general. Overall Im really happy with ROG branded stuff as for me at least it has been reliable and performs well


----------



## Cristu

br0da said:


> Socket LGA 1151 - here we go again!
> Let's collect and discuss all the info we can gather about the VRMs on boards with Z370 or Z390 PCHs in this thread.
> 
> Comments:
> 
> 
> 
> Useful links:
> 
> Motherboard list @ videocardz.net
> 
> LGA 1151 Mainboard VRM list @ hardwareluxx


Isn't there a more recent vrm temperature list with the z390s out there?

Here are some stuff I found: 
https://wccftech.com/review/asrock-z390-phantom-gaming-9-motherboard-review/9/ 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZcqw-K1drY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6lAE3PgWoRc

I wanted info on the asus prime z390-a compared to these other actually, if anyone can find me, ty a lot


----------



## AlphaC

Cristu said:


> Isn't there a more recent vrm temperature list with the z390s out there?
> 
> Here are some stuff I found:
> https://wccftech.com/review/asrock-z390-phantom-gaming-9-motherboard-review/9/
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZcqw-K1drY
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6lAE3PgWoRc
> 
> I wanted info on the asus prime z390-a compared to these other actually, if anyone can find me, ty a lot



There's a more thorough one on hardware info NL but it's not using Prime95 , Intel XTU is used. I've been trying to compile more information.



The key points to remember is the difference between measuring the back of the board vs the front , as well as the load power and cooling method (no airflow openbench + water cooling, low airflow 1000RPM case fans, full on 1500+ RPM fans with direct airflow). There won't be a _large_ difference unless you are pushing over 160W.


https://nl.hardware.info/reviews/88...rd-is-echt-8-core-waardig-benchmarks-vrm-test


----------



## lb_felipe

Does it make sense to buy Z390 Aorus Xtreme + 9900K + air cooling? I wish Xtreme over Master just because of 2+ Gbit LAN.


----------



## The Pook

lb_felipe said:


> Does it make sense to buy Z390 Aorus Xtreme + 9900K + air cooling? I wish Xtreme over Master just because of 2+ Gbit LAN.



Overkill is better than inadequate


----------



## Wihglah

The Pook said:


> What? The WS Z390 Pro/Maximus XI Gene are high end and have plenty competent VRMs and aren't 4 phase. Their cheap boards, sure ... but pretty much everyone but Gigabyte and AsRock seem to have crappy cheap Z390 boards when to comes to VRM (the Z390 UD is kinda bad, but it's also only ~$130).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Kind of a shame, they seem to have the best VRM at every price point just about it seems.


I am not familiar with the Gene [edit : it's 5+2 phases] - but the Hero, Code and Formula have a 4+2 phase VRM, which frankly is unacceptable on motherboards priced as they are.


Gigabyte does have the best VRM layout this cycle. If I knew then what I know now - I would have gone for the Aurus Xtreme (16+2 phases), but the Master (12+2 phases) is almost as good for a great price.


----------



## SpeedyIV

Wihglah said:


> I will go wherever the hell I like.
> 
> Asus are pedaling 4 phase VRMs on top end motherboards and lieing about it.


Actually, they have (at least) stopped lieing about it. Looking at the current marketing web pages for the XI Hero/Code/Formula, there is no mention of VRM design at all. All references to "Twin 8-Phase" have been quietly removed. I was ready to upgrade my Max X Hero wifi / 8700k to a Max XI Hero (or Code) / 9900k, but after the whole ROG Z-390 "Twin 8-Phase" VRM debacle, I decided to skip this release. I am still annoyed with Asus because of the fact that they thougt it was fine to sell Max X Hero boards with 2 completely different VRM designs, then refuse to admit it. 

Asus support is the worst, and their marketing is deceptive. They have no problem with changing critical components in a product mid stream, then refusing to admit it. I understand that with a complex product like a MOBO, oopses may happen and a revision may be necessary. If this happens, the Rev should be clearly documented. They could even call it "Mark II" or "+" or whatever and charge a bit more for it (like the X-99 Deluxe II). Then at least the customer knows what they are getting. Reading reviews and watching tear downs is pointless if there is no way to know that the board you got is the same as boards in the reviews. What Asus did with the Max X Hero was quite shady. Their UEFI Bios is the only reason I would consider giving Asus any more of my hard earned money. 

As for the new Asus VRM design on the XI H/C/F, real world reports indicate that they perform OK, but no one (that I am at aware of) has determined that their new VRM design is "better" than the more robust VRMs offered by some of their competitors. It will be interesting to see what Asus does next time around. YMMV...


----------



## Falkentyne

SpeedyIV said:


> Actually, they have (at least) stopped lieing about it. Looking at the current marketing web pages for the XI Hero/Code/Formula, there is no mention of VRM design at all. All references to "Twin 8-Phase" have been quietly removed. I was ready to upgrade my Max X Hero wifi / 8700k to a Max XI Hero (or Code) / 9900k, but after the whole ROG Z-390 "Twin 8-Phase" VRM debacle, I decided to skip this release. I am still annoyed with Asus because of the fact that they thougt it was fine to sell Max X Hero boards with 2 completely different VRM designs, then refuse to admit it.
> 
> Asus support is the worst, and their marketing is deceptive. They have no problem with changing critical components in a product mid stream, then refusing to admit it. I understand that with a complex product like a MOBO, oopses may happen and a revision may be necessary. If this happens, the Rev should be clearly documented. They could even call it "Mark II" or "+" or whatever and charge a bit more for it (like the X-99 Deluxe II). Then at least the customer knows what they are getting. Reading reviews and watching tear downs is pointless if there is no way to know that the board you got is the same as boards in the reviews. What Asus did with the Max X Hero was quite shady. Their UEFI Bios is the only reason I would consider giving Asus any more of my hard earned money.
> 
> As for the new Asus VRM design on the XI H/C/F, real world reports indicate that they perform OK, but no one (that I am at aware of) has determined that their new VRM design is "better" than the more robust VRMs offered by some of their competitors. It will be interesting to see what Asus does next time around. YMMV...


Not to rain on your parade, but "Lieing" is not a word.
Why do people keep writing that? Seen it twice in this thread.


----------



## SpeedyIV

Falkentyne said:


> Not to rain on your parade, but "Lieing" is not a word.
> Why do people keep writing that? Seen it twice in this thread.


Yeah I thought it looked wrong but was too lazy to fix it. So they were "Lying" OK?


----------



## Falkentyne

SpeedyIV said:


> Yeah I thought it looked wrong but was too lazy to fix it. So they were "Lying" OK?


As Spock said: "They exaggerated."


----------



## SpeedyIV

Well they certainly weren't going to call it a "4-Phase" or a "Twin 4-Phase" or anything else with a "4" in it...


----------



## F-man4

ROG STRIX Z390-I
9700K
Prime95 Small FFTs can't keep 4.6GHz on default settings:
0-10s 4.6GHz 160W 68C
10-15s 4.4GHz
16s 3.8GHz 95W 56C
If OC the CPU to 1C 5.0GHz & all the other keeps default settings, then Prime95 = PC shutdown.
Why?


----------



## Wihglah

Toms Hardware are drinking the cool aid

Apparently the Gene XI has 12 phases. (it's a 5+2)

https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/asus-rog-maximus-xi-gene-z390-micro-atx,5941.html




F-man4 said:


> ROG STRIX Z390-I
> 9700K
> Prime95 Small FFTs can't keep 4.6GHz on default settings:
> 0-10s 4.6GHz 160W 68C
> 10-15s 4.4GHz
> 16s 3.8GHz 95W 56C
> If OC the CPU to 1C 5.0GHz & all the other keeps default settings, then Prime95 = PC shutdown.
> Why?



Sounds like you haven't disabled the VRM power throttle or adjusted your vcore appropriately

Follow der8auers guide:


----------



## F-man4

Wihglah said:


> F-man4 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ROG STRIX Z390-I
> 9700K
> Prime95 Small FFTs can't keep 4.6GHz on default settings:
> 0-10s 4.6GHz 160W 68C
> 10-15s 4.4GHz
> 16s 3.8GHz 95W 56C
> If OC the CPU to 1C 5.0GHz & all the other keeps default settings, then Prime95 = PC shutdown.
> Why?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sounds like you haven't disabled the VRM power throttle or adjusted your vcore appropriately
> 
> Follow der8auers guide:
Click to expand...

Actually if I disable any option of the motherboard's power limit without OC it still gets shutdown on clicking Prime95 Small FFTs to run.
CineBench R15 which doesn't use AVX/FMA doesn't have such the problem.


----------



## lowdog

Use Prime95 v26.6 and phuck AVX right off, I have a 9700K @ 5GHZ with 1.3v LLC 5 currently on the Maximus XI Gene and it's a pure gaming rig....who needs POS AVX for a gaming rig.


----------



## KedarWolf

lowdog said:


> Use Prime95 v26.6 and phuck AVX right off, I have a 9700K @ 5GHZ with 1.3v LLC 5 currently on the Maximus XI Gene and it's a pure gaming rig....who need POS AVX for a gaming rig.


Or use the latest Prime95, no AVX Offset in BIOS, 1344 both FFT's, Run In Place, 15 minute interval. I get an average of 70C a core with AVX using those settings.


----------



## Wihglah

F-man4 said:


> Actually if I disable any option of the motherboard's power limit without OC it still gets shutdown on clicking Prime95 Small FFTs to run.
> CineBench R15 which doesn't use AVX/FMA doesn't have such the problem.




In that case, your vcore is insufficient. 


Are you using auto, manual, offset or adaptive?


----------



## F-man4

lowdog said:


> Use Prime95 v26.6 and phuck AVX right off, I have a 9700K @ 5GHZ with 1.3v LLC 5 currently on the Maximus XI Gene and it's a pure gaming rig....who needs POS AVX for a gaming rig.


Video encoding required.


Wihglah said:


> F-man4 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Actually if I disable any option of the motherboard's power limit without OC it still gets shutdown on clicking Prime95 Small FFTs to run.
> CineBench R15 which doesn't use AVX/FMA doesn't have such the problem.
> 
> 
> 
> In that case, your vcore is insufficient.
> Are you using auto, manual, offset or adaptive?
Click to expand...

Auto.


----------



## cole2109

Hey guys,

my 9700K is stable on Prime95 5000MHz 1.32V (max temp 70). But 5100MHz is a no go. Always after 15-20min i get BSOD in prime95. No difference if i set 1.36V or 1.44V. Temp. are fine. I can run Cinebench on 5200MHz with 1.44v. 
No BSOD with games...
I have Asus Z370-F + 120mm fan on VRM
Do you guys think that motherboard is the problem?


----------



## ej369

hello !! ASROCK Z390 EXTREME4 and ASROCK phantom gaming 6 ---VRM one?


----------



## Robbært

ej369 said:


> hello !! ASROCK Z390 EXTREME4 and ASROCK phantom gaming 6 ---VRM one?


extreme4 and g6 is same, pg6 has heatpipe.
z370 extreme4 had up to 130C VRM temperatures with 8700K
z390 extreme4 (FDPC5030) VRM worse on paper compared to z370 (SM7341) version
by consumption 9700k at same level with 8700k



cole2109 said:


> my 9700K is stable on Prime95 5000MHz 1.32V (max temp 70). But 5100MHz is a no go. Always after 15-20min i get BSOD in prime95. No difference if i set 1.36V or 1.44V. Temp. are fine. I can run Cinebench on 5200MHz with 1.44v.
> No BSOD with games...
> I have Asus Z370-F + 120mm fan on VRM
> Do you guys think that motherboard is the problem?


if you have LLC 5(6) set there nothing really to change. try to disable iGPU if you haven't.
27% of tested 9700Ks were able to hit 5.1GHz or greater.


----------



## ej369

VRM до 130C с 8700K -- 5000 GHz?


----------



## GeneO

ej369 said:


> VRM до 130C с 8700K -- 5000 GHz?



Yeah, pretty good temperature for 5000 GHz


----------



## ej369

stock -3.6 i7 9700k ASROCK Z390 EXTREME4 =ok? I know bad English sorry )))


----------



## wingman99

ej369 said:


> stock -3.6 i7 9700k ASROCK Z390 EXTREME4 =ok? I know bad English sorry )))


That motherboard will be fine for stock and over clocking.


----------



## Robbært

ej369 said:


> stock -3.6 i7 9700k ASROCK Z390 EXTREME4 =ok?


it should run 9900k stock without problem. or with extra VRM cooler.


----------



## ej369

wingman99


Robbært




thanks


----------



## Alex11223

Is there any VRM temperature tests comparing Gigabyte Master and Ultra (or Pro, Elite)?

Buildzoid said that Ultra/Pro/Elite have better VRM components but it's unclear whether the implementation is actually better.


----------



## Wihglah

F-man4 said:


> Video encoding required.
> Auto.



Bingo

Auto will only follow the CPU defined VID, which is only good enough for 1 core at 5Gz

You will need to set it manually, at some number higher than it is currently at to get stability


----------



## wingman99

Wihglah said:


> Bingo
> 
> Auto will only follow the CPU defined VID, which is only good enough for 1 core at 5Gz
> 
> You will need to set it manually, at some number higher than it is currently at to get stability


Auto will apply the same set voltage to one core or all depending on how you set the cores multiplier. If one core has 1.3v then all cores can have 1.3v at the same clock frequency.


----------



## Wihglah

wingman99 said:


> Auto will apply the same set voltage to one core or all depending on how you set the cores multiplier. If one core has 1.3v then all cores can have 1.3v at the same clock frequency.



Yes - but whatever voltage is applied is enough for only 1 core to manage 5Ghz - i.e. fully boosted stock settings. If you overclock by making all cores at 5GHz, then you will need more voltage depending on your CPU.


----------



## Falkentyne

Wihglah said:


> Yes - but whatever voltage is applied is enough for only 1 core to manage 5Ghz - i.e. fully boosted stock settings. If you overclock by making all cores at 5GHz, then you will need more voltage depending on your CPU.


Need to correct everyone here a bit btw.
VID is based on cpu cache ratio, not on core speed. So VID will stop scaling if you stop increasing cache ratio. But no one knows how far VID will scale (might go up to x50, x47 is already tested).
Catch 22 however: quite a few CPU's will be unstable at higher multipliers if cache and core are set to the same ratio without a high degree of LLC, possibly even more voltage applied manually. Many good chips can do 50 core, 47 cache at a reasonable voltage, but 50 core, 50 cache is going to be difficult for many. YMMV. But you're going to need quite a bit more voltage for x50/x50 compared to x50/x47 in many cases.


----------



## Wihglah

Falkentyne said:


> Need to correct everyone here a bit btw.
> VID is based on cpu cache ratio, not on core speed. So VID will stop scaling if you stop increasing cache ratio. But no one knows how far VID will scale (might go up to x50, x47 is already tested).
> Catch 22 however: quite a few CPU's will be unstable at higher multipliers if cache and core are set to the same ratio without a high degree of LLC, possibly even more voltage applied manually. Many good chips can do 50 core, 47 cache at a reasonable voltage, but 50 core, 50 cache is going to be difficult for many. YMMV. But you're going to need quite a bit more voltage for x50/x50 compared to x50/x47 in many cases.



TL : DR - auto isn't enough for 5Gz on all cores


----------



## wingman99

Wihglah said:


> Yes - but whatever voltage is applied is enough for only 1 core to manage 5Ghz - i.e. fully boosted stock settings. If you overclock by making all cores at 5GHz, then you will need more voltage depending on your CPU.


The voltage stays the same for one core or all. It is the amperage that increases with more than one core at 5.0GHz not the voltage.


----------



## Wihglah

wingman99 said:


> The voltage stays the same for one core or all. It is the amperage that increases with more than one core at 5.0GHz not the voltage.



I didn't say it did.

I said the vcore applied by auto is insufficient for all cores at 5GHz as it is intended for one core at 5GHz.


----------



## wingman99

Wihglah said:


> I didn't say it did.
> 
> I said the vcore applied by auto is insufficient for all cores at 5GHz as it is intended for one core at 5GHz.


Does the voltage lower when more than one core is at AUTO volts at 5GHz? That would be power delivery problem.


----------



## Raghar

wingman99 said:


> The voltage stays the same for one core or all. It is the amperage that increases with more than one core at 5.0GHz not the voltage.


If Intel is boosting the core that can boost at lower voltage, then the CPU is using the easiest OC core for full speed. Even when not, more cores active means more heat. And more heat means more voltage needed.


----------



## F-man4

Wihglah said:


> F-man4 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Video encoding required.
> Auto.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bingo
> 
> Auto will only follow the CPU defined VID, which is only good enough for 1 core at 5Gz
> 
> You will need to set it manually, at some number higher than it is currently at to get stability
Click to expand...

But anything manual leads to P95 -> shutdown immediately.


----------



## eric98k

Buildzoid Mobo PCB Breakdown: EVGA Z390 FTW





Board features:

8pin EPS connector enough for CPU on Z390. 6pin PCIe power connector unnecessary.
Rear panel CMOS clear button
Onboard POST code + buttons + beeper + 5V standby status LED
Onboard USB connector for SPI flashing (BIOS flashback without CPU)

VRM:

Advertised 11-phase: 8-phase Vcore + 1x Vccsa + 1x Vccio + 1x Vddr
Two separate inductors: isolated power input filtering for 2 group of phases
VRM PWM controller IR35201 (4+1) for Vcc+Vccsa
Vcore: true 8-phase, 8x IR3556 50A DrMOS, doublers 4x IR3599, inductors 150nH
Efficiency estimation: Fs=400KHz, Vout=1.3V, Vdrv=5V, Iout & Power loss: 150A (9700K OC), 18W; 200A (9900K OC), 25.5W; 250A (9900K sub-ambient OC), 35.5W; 300A (LN), 52W
Vccsa: 1x IR3556 50A DrMOS
Vccio: PWM uP1537(1), mosfets (1H1L) 4C10N + 4C05N
Vddr: PWM uP1537(1), mosfets (1H1L) 4C10N + 4C10N/4C05N

Concern: Mem OC (advertised 4133MHz) for 2DPC design, and BIOS vdroop settings


----------



## Alexandrus

Alex11223 said:


> Is there any VRM temperature tests comparing Gigabyte Master and Ultra (or Pro, Elite)?
> 
> Buildzoid said that Ultra/Pro/Elite have better VRM components but it's unclear whether the implementation is actually better.


The Ultra will be hotter, as the heatsink is worse, but yes, the CPU VRM is better, more efficient, iGPU however is worse, if that matters at all.


----------



## eric98k

M11 Apex product page back online: https://www.asus.com/Motherboards/ROG-MAXIMUS-XI-APEX/
16x IR3555 confirmed, and no VRM temp source


----------



## stephenn82

ha...dual 8 pin inputs. These processors dont even hit the 400w that one input is worth.


----------



## Falkentyne

stephenn82 said:


> ha...dual 8 pin inputs. These processors dont even hit the 400w that one input is worth.


Hitting 400W on one input will melt the connector. A single 8 pin is only good up to 235W sustained (long term). It can go higher but by then you're putting to much stress on the connector.
I melted a 4 pin with a 170W QX9650 back in the day. It's rated to a MAX of 336 watts. The 4 pin is rated for about 165W *MAXIMUM*.


----------



## stephenn82

Falkentyne said:


> Hitting 400W on one input will melt the connector. A single 8 pin is only good up to 235W sustained (long term). It can go higher but by then you're putting to much stress on the connector.
> I melted a 4 pin with a 170W QX9650 back in the day. It's rated to a MAX of 336 watts. The 4 pin is rated for about 165W *MAXIMUM*.


Buildzoid states otherwise in every video review of motherboards with more than an 8 pin. He also states that the only people ever possibly needing more power than one 8 pin is those with LN2 or extreme cooling.
It also depends on your gauge of cable for sustained power, etc.

so, if a mini connector is rated at 7 amps per pin sustained, that would be 336 watts, yes. The HCS is 12a per line, 48 total, 576 watts. Ouch! Talk about face melting powaaaa!

I still think the average joe with an AIO or custom loop pushing his 8700k (or 9700/9900k) at 5 ghz will go higher than 210w (250w for 9th gen) of consumption on a full AVX load. That leaves a lot left over in that single 8 pin. 

Now, when we get to 7+ GHz, the story changes.


----------



## Falkentyne

stephenn82 said:


> Buildzoid states otherwise in every video review of motherboards with more than an 8 pin. He also states that the only people ever possibly needing more power than one 8 pin is those with LN2 or extreme cooling.
> It also depends on your gauge of cable for sustained power, etc.


I'm going by official specifications, not by what Buildzoid says.

http://www.playtool.com/pages/psuconnectors/connectors.html

As I said, I BURNED a 4 pin before, although it took a very long time to melt. No, a 4 pin can not handle a 180W CPU long term. it WILL melt.


----------



## stephenn82

Falkentyne said:


> I'm going by official specifications, not by what Buildzoid says.
> 
> http://www.playtool.com/pages/psuconnectors/connectors.html
> 
> As I said, I BURNED a 4 pin before, although it took a very long time to melt. No, a 4 pin can not handle a 180W CPU long term. it WILL melt.


Not saying its not possible to melt it. 
what scenario did you put that single 4 pin in? and what gauge was the PSU cabling?


----------



## Falkentyne

stephenn82 said:


> Not saying its not possible to melt it.
> what scenario did you put that single 4 pin in? and what gauge was the PSU cabling?


I have no idea. I'm just a gamer :/

It was a PC Power and Cooling (some copper colored case that was a seasonic rebrand). And I googled it--the 4 pin melting was a COMMON problem with the QX9650 being installed on boards that were not originally designed for quads. There were pictures all over overclockers.com and elsewhere of people with melted 4 pins. The QX9650 needed an 8 pin for proper support. It would run fine at stock with the 4 pin but if you overclocked it to 4 ghz you would be overdrawing it. It was both the cable itself and the connector onboard. (yet it still worked when I swapped to a Seasonic 1000W platinum and just ran the CPU at stock).

It was on an Asus P5WDH, which supported the QX9650 with a bios update but only had a 4 pin power connector.


----------



## wingman99

Falkentyne said:


> I'm going by official specifications, not by what Buildzoid says.
> 
> http://www.playtool.com/pages/psuconnectors/connectors.html
> 
> As I said, I BURNED a 4 pin before, although it took a very long time to melt. No, a 4 pin can not handle a 180W CPU long term. it WILL melt.


Official specification on the 8 pin EPS +12 volt power cable 28 amps 336 watts. 4 pin ATX +12 volt power cable 16 amps	192 watts. LINK: http://www.playtool.com/pages/psuconnectors/connectors.html


You were right at the max for 4 pin.


----------



## Falkentyne

wingman99 said:


> Official specification on the 8 pin EPS +12 volt power cable 28 amps 336 watts. 4 pin ATX +12 volt power cable 16 amps	192 watts. LINK: http://www.playtool.com/pages/psuconnectors/connectors.html
> 
> 
> You were right at the max for 4 pin.


That's what I'm saying.
I don't care if buildzoid says you can use up to 400W on an 8 pin. I'm not going to burn my power cables again.
That's why I plugged in both 8 pins on my Aorus Master. Doesn't hurt a thing to be safe.


----------



## mouacyk

I've melted a single 8-pin on a mobo pushing 1.41v needed for an E5 1680 V2 at 4.7GHz. That has got be right around just 300 watts. On my new motherboard, I promptly plugged in both 8-pin EPS cables.


----------



## Abaidor

Falkentyne said:


> That's what I'm saying.
> I don't care if buildzoid says you can use up to 400W on an 8 pin. I'm not going to burn my power cables again.
> That's why I plugged in both 8 pins on my Aorus Master. Doesn't hurt a thing to be safe.


My Corsair AX1500i is using thicker wires (16AWG) on the 24pin, PCI-E and EPS lines than the normal 18AWG and that can withstand higher wattage (i.e. 500Watt+ on 8pin) than the "official" specs. That is for the cables though. My motherboard Rampage Extreme VIE has a 4pin + 8pin and there are many people using it with overclocked 7980XEs pulling more than 600Watts no problem at all.

My 7940X overclocked hits 480 Watts and will overclock it much more soon...no problems, no overheating on cables, no melted pins. 
What happened 10 years ago with a Q9650 has nothing to do with today since back then power consumption was nowhere near what new multicore cpus require.


----------



## Falkentyne

Abaidor said:


> My Corsair AX1500i is using thicker wires (16AWG) on the 24pin, PCI-E and EPS lines than the normal 18AWG and that can withstand higher wattage (i.e. 500Watt+ on 8pin) than the "official" specs. That is for the cables though. My motherboard Rampage Extreme VIE has a 4pin + 8pin and there are many people using it with overclocked 7980XEs pulling more than 600Watts no problem at all.
> 
> My 7940X overclocked hits 480 Watts and will overclock it much more soon...no problems, no overheating on cables, no melted pins.
> What happened 10 years ago with a Q9650 has nothing to do with today since back then power consumption was nowhere near what new multicore cpus require.


So are you saying I'm not legally entitled to plug in both 8 pin power connectors on my computer I paid for ? It's mine...I'll do whatever the hell I want with it.


----------



## stephenn82

This escalated quickly. 

He is saying that over a decade ago, the processors werent really eating that much juice. Not like they do today (such as his x299 setup which will require the use of both 8 pins)
I am pretty sure that was around the time when PC Power and Cooling started to tank as well.
Do what you want with your hardware. Its your hardware. plug in all of the pins, hell, even adapt a second PSU and force them to work in tandem, one for the 24 pin and one for the dual 8's.


----------



## eric98k

@AlphaC

ASRock Z390 Phantom Gaming SLI/AC
http://www.coolpc.com.tw/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=254959

From VRM pictures
PWM: uP9521P (4+2)
Vcc: 8x (SM4337 + SM4336) 1H1L, 4x uP1961s 
Vccgt: 2x (SM4337 + 2x SM4336) 1H2L, 2x uP1962s

Left:









































Top:


----------



## eric98k

@AlphaC

The same review http://www.coolpc.com.tw/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=254959

ASRock Z390M-ITX/ac
PWM: uP9521P
12x SM7341EH (6 front PCB, 6 backside), 6x uP1965P drivers


----------



## eric98k

@AlphaC

The same review http://www.coolpc.com.tw/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=254959

ASRock Z390M Pro 4
PWM: ISL95866C (4+2)
Vcc: 8x (DEC3908X + DEC3906X)
Vccgt: 2x (DEC3908X + 2x DEC3906X), ISL6625A driver

What are these "DEC" fets?


----------



## Abaidor

Falkentyne said:


> So are you saying I'm not legally entitled to plug in both 8 pin power connectors on my computer I paid for ? It's mine...I'll do whatever the hell I want with it.


I am not saying anything like that. I am saying that depending on the PSU and cables gauge + motherboard pins/traces implementation an 8-Pin connector might be able to go way over the official specs. Yet, I brought as an example my own motherboard that is being used in such a way by many. 

Plug-in everything you have and I can't recommend otherwise since I don't know all the data about your configuration. Your cables got burned in the past because your cables were not rated for the loads you fed them with. This would never happen with a Corsair AX1500i for example since it's EPS12V cables are AWG16 vs AWG18 on the vast majority of PSUs.


----------



## AlphaC

eric98k said:


> @*AlphaC*
> 
> The same review http://www.coolpc.com.tw/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=254959
> 
> ASRock Z390M Pro 4
> PWM: ISL95866C (4+2)
> Vcc: 8x (DEC3908X + DEC3906X)
> Vccgt: 2x (DEC3908X + 2x DEC3906X), ISL6625A driver
> 
> What are these "DEC" fets?
> 
> 
> Spoiler



I updated my chart locally but I need to find the datasheet for the specific mosfets.

I _think_ it's Potens semiconductor: http://www.potens-semi.com/en/product-4/mosfets
http://potens-semi.com/pdf/PDEC3908Z.pdf <-- max RDS(on) = 8.5 mΩ / 13mΩ at V_GS=4.5V, note the Z rather than X , package size listed as 3x3 PPAK aka Powerpak
http://potens-semi.com/pdf/PDEC3098X.pdf <-- RDS(on) =8.5 mΩ , decent rise time/fall time and Q_G ~12 nC (higher than SM4337 but lower than Onsemi Powerpaks) though so this is likely a high side fet , note the numbering is different but you can see the X is 5x6mm even with the "DEC" at the beginning
http://potens-semi.com/pdf/PDC3906X.pdf <-- max RDS(on) =8.5mΩ at V_GS=4.5V , 5.5 mΩ at V_GS=10V (i.e. bad in 2018), 14.5ns max rise and 9.6ns max fall time for V_GS=10V, 11.1nC Q_G, 51A continuous at 100°C T_C
http://potens-semi.com/pdf/PDC3908X.pdf <-- max RDS(on) = 8.5 mΩ / 13mΩ at V_GS=4.5V , 24ns max rise and 16ns max fall time for V_GS=10V, 12nC Q_G , 38A continuous at 100°C T_C


No matter what the DEC3908*X + *DEC3906*X* specs are , don't expect miracles since the board is low end (the phantom SLI using the Sinopower and NIKOs is as well) and the mosfet package is not a powerblock but a cheaper powerpack. I did notice the junction to mosfet casing thermal resistance is rather low at < 2°C/W however R_theta,JA is over 60°C/W

The X probably signifies the full size "PPAK5X6" a.k.a 5x6mm footprint powerpak

The board is so cheapened out that it's missing random capacitors in the image you linked.

I am surprised the Z390M-ITX has powerblocks on the back. It has been shown that board can't handle an i9 already, so I suspect it's just because there's no heatsink on the back (which means you're likely to be only to push <20A per SM7341EHKP spec at 70°C) and the heat going into the PCB is from the back and front at the same time on an ITX sized board.


----------



## Falkentyne

AlphaC said:


> I updated my chart locally but I need to find the datasheet for the specific mosfets.
> 
> I _think_ it's Potens semiconductor: http://www.potens-semi.com/en/product-4/mosfets
> http://potens-semi.com/pdf/PDEC3908Z.pdf <-- max RDS(on) = 8.5 mΩ / 13mΩ at V_GS=4.5V, note the Z rather than X , package size listed as 3x3 PPAK aka Powerpak
> http://potens-semi.com/pdf/PDEC3098X.pdf <-- RDS(on) =8.5 mΩ , decent rise time/fall time and Q_G ~12 nC (higher than SM4337 but lower than Onsemi Powerpaks) though so this is likely a high side fet , note the numbering is different but you can see the X is 5x6mm even with the "DEC" at the beginning
> http://potens-semi.com/pdf/PDC3906X.pdf <-- max RDS(on) =8.5mΩ at V_GS=4.5V , 5.5 mΩ at V_GS=10V (i.e. bad in 2018), 14.5ns max rise and 9.6ns max fall time for V_GS=10V, 11.1nC Q_G, 51A continuous at 100°C T_C
> http://potens-semi.com/pdf/PDC3908X.pdf <-- max RDS(on) = 8.5 mΩ / 13mΩ at V_GS=4.5V , 24ns max rise and 16ns max fall time for V_GS=10V, 12nC Q_G , 38A continuous at 100°C T_C
> 
> No matter what the DEC3908*X + *DEC3906*X* specs are , don't expect miracles since the board is low end (the phantom SLI using the Sinopower and NIKOs is as well) and the mosfet package is not a powerblock but a cheaper powerpack. I did notice the junction to mosfet casing thermal resistance is rather low at < 2°C/W however R_theta,JA is over 60°C/W
> 
> The X probably signifies the full size "PPAK5X6" a.k.a 5x6mm footprint powerpak
> 
> The board is so cheapened out that it's missing random capacitors in the image you linked.
> 
> I am surprised the Z390M-ITX has powerblocks on the back. It has been shown that board can't handle an i9 already, so I suspect it's just because there's no heatsink on the back (which means you're likely to be only to push <20A per SM7341EHKP spec at 70°C) and the heat going into the PCB is from the back and front at the same time on an ITX sized board.


Alpha, do you have an oscillioscope?
if you're willing to do a VERY important favor for me, is it possible if you can measure 'transient overshoots' of cpu vcore, by using the highest (0 mOhm) loadline calibration and testing with a heavy load->no load->heavy load->no load (in something like prime95) for how high the overshoot (virus mode) is on a good Z390 motherboard? (anything you have accessible, Asus, GB, whatever).

Please use a low voltage like 1.20v (bios) or lower at a lower overclock to limit spikes to the CPU from a 0 mOhm loadline. Also see if "PWM switching Frequency" and "PWM Phase control" have any effect on lowering the transient overshoot (oVS).

If you can, it would help a lot of people here.


----------



## wingman99

Falkentyne said:


> Alpha, do you have an oscillioscope?
> if you're willing to do a VERY important favor for me, is it possible if you can measure 'transient overshoots' of cpu vcore, by using the highest (0 mOhm) loadline calibration and testing with a heavy load->no load->heavy load->no load (in something like prime95) for how high the overshoot (virus mode) is on a good Z390 motherboard? (anything you have accessible, Asus, GB, whatever).
> 
> Please use a low voltage like 1.20v (bios) or lower at a lower overclock to limit spikes to the CPU from a 0 mOhm loadline. Also see if "PWM switching Frequency" and "PWM Phase control" have any effect on lowering the transient overshoot (oVS).
> 
> If you can, it would help a lot of people here.


The oscilloscope will show the same voltage spike information that DVMM will show as far as transient peak voltage and minim spikes. On load line on a lot of article I read is incorrect. LLC (Load line calibration) is for Load line. With default settings there is load line because the operation of transistors is nonlinear current vs the voltage.

Load line (electronics)
In graphical analysis of nonlinear electronic circuits, a load line is a line drawn on the characteristic curve, a graph of the current vs the voltage in a nonlinear device like a diode or transistor. 
It represents the constraint put on the voltage and current in the nonlinear device by the external circuit. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Load_line_(electronics)

Transistor operation is nonlinear current vs voltage so when operation any transistor increased amperage necessitates lower voltage, starting from low amps higher voltage use necessitates.


----------



## Falkentyne

wingman99 said:


> The oscilloscope will show the same voltage spike information that DVMM will show as far as transient peak voltage and minim spikes. On load line on a lot of article I read is incorrect. LLC (Load line calibration) is for Load line. With default settings there is load line because the operation of transistors is nonlinear current vs the voltage.
> 
> Load line (electronics)
> In graphical analysis of nonlinear electronic circuits, a load line is a line drawn on the characteristic curve, a graph of the current vs the voltage in a nonlinear device like a diode or transistor.
> It represents the constraint put on the voltage and current in the nonlinear device by the external circuit. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Load_line_(electronics)
> 
> Transistor operation is nonlinear current vs voltage so when operation any transistor increased amperage necessitates lower voltage, starting from low amps higher voltage use necessitates.


But voltage spikes from transient overshoots happen in microseconds (it's right on the Intel spec sheet).
A DMM can't react fast enough to measure those. Unless you have one of those that cost like $2,000, but those are Scopemeters which double as oscilloscopes anyway.

My friend has a a cheap 1 mhz oscilloscope and even he can't measure transient spikes because the VRM's switch rate is 500 khz, which is simply FAR too fast, and he needs a 100 mhz scope to be able to read stuff like that.
Transient spikes happen in microseconds.


----------



## wingman99

Falkentyne said:


> But voltage spikes from transient overshoots happen in microseconds (it's right on the Intel spec sheet).
> A DMM can't react fast enough to measure those. Unless you have one of those that cost like $2,000, but those are Scopemeters which double as oscilloscopes anyway.
> 
> My friend has a a cheap 1 mhz oscilloscope and even he can't measure transient spikes because the VRM's switch rate is 500 khz, which is simply FAR too fast, and he needs a 100 mhz scope to be able to read stuff like that.
> Transient spikes happen in microseconds.


Typical DVMM will measure 10 reads per second. With a DVMM you can capture peak voltage. It just takes more time to capture the spikes in voltage when they don't land on the exact capture time. However, if you leave the DVMM on for a half hour it will capture peak voltage spikes when they land on the capture time.

Example of my Rig.
Web browsing for 5 minutes BIOS DVID +0.080v LLC AUTO Minimum and Maximum Vcore 0.768v to 1.332v
Web browsing for 2 hours BIOS DVID +0.080v LLC AUTO Minimum and Maximum Vcore 0.768v to 1.392v


----------



## Falkentyne

wingman99 said:


> Typical DVMM will measure 10 reads per second. With a DVMM you can capture peak voltage. It just takes more time to capture the spikes in voltage when they don't land on the exact capture time. However, if you leave the DVMM on for a half hour it will capture peak voltage spikes when they land on the capture time.
> 
> Example of my Rig.
> Web browsing for 5 minutes BIOS DVID +0.080v LLC AUTO Minimum and Maximum Vcore 0.768v to 1.332v
> Web browsing for 2 hours BIOS DVID +0.080v LLC AUTO Minimum and Maximum Vcore 0.768v to 1.392v


Do you have time to take a DMM read of max vcore when using highest LLC (e.g. level 8 on asus and ultra extreme on GB) when going from full load to idle?
Example: 1.20v bios/load voltage (to keep your CPU safe)?


----------



## wingman99

Falkentyne said:


> Do you have time to take a DMM read of max vcore when using highest LLC (e.g. level 8 on asus and ultra extreme on GB) when going from full load to idle?
> Example: 1.20v bios/load voltage (to keep your CPU safe)?


Load line AUTO is keeping the processor safe. LLC AUTO (Load line calibration) is for Load line. With default settings there is load line because the operation of transistors is nonlinear current vs the voltage.

Load line (electronics)
In graphical analysis of nonlinear electronic circuits, a load line is a line drawn on the characteristic curve, a graph of the current vs the voltage in a nonlinear device like a diode or transistor. 
It represents the constraint put on the voltage and current in the nonlinear device by the external circuit. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Load_line_(electronics)


----------



## Alex11223

Alexandrus said:


> The Ultra will be hotter, as the heatsink is worse, but yes, the CPU VRM is better, more efficient, iGPU however is worse, if that matters at all.


Not sure about the heatsink, but yeah, builzoid said that Gigabyte tested them without heatsinks and Ultra was a bit hotter.

https://youtu.be/BmtBc_nyJw8?t=620


----------



## marcolisi

My i9 9900k at 4.9 ghz on all cores on an asus maximus XI extreme and air cooled by a noctua.

I wish I could push it to 5 ghz on all cores but in am not familiar with overclocking and the parameters to play with to reach farther in ghz

Constructive comments are apprecciated


----------



## AlphaC

@ Marcolisi, you're going to be cooler limited unless you use an AVX offset. Have you tried different fan setups?

Also 3dnews had a few reviews with zero airflow in LinX:

MSI Ace: https://3dnews.ru/977136/


> In the first part of the article, I was not just praising the cooling system of the MSI motherboard.See, the stand is specially used maintenance-free "water" - with it the power converter is experiencing serious stress, because in general there is no way blown by fans.At the same time, in overclocking, the energy consumption of the test system increased from 211 to 309 W.However, the MSI MEG Z390 ACE cooling system coped with its work even without “outside help” - the temperature of the VRM-circuit elements did not go beyond a hundred degrees Celsius, which is good news.


MSI ace: https://www.overclockers.ua/motherboard/msi-meg-z390-ace/3/


> In this test, the device consumption was highest, at the time of displaying “65 ° C” the integrated sensor (“MOS” - following the terminology in AIDA64) recorded 68 ° C, this is on the part with the rear panel I / O ports, and 71 ° C - at the top edge of the board. In the latter case, the upper edge of the radiator showed (with a stretch) 50 ° C. From this follows the conclusion about a fairly reliable data transfer by a ready-made “means” of monitoring. The level of requests to the electrical socket formed a range of 46-300 W, if you do not pay attention to the background activity in the Windows 10 environment.
> The increase in productivity when activating eight streams in LinX forces the CPU multiplier to decrease by one point, along with the required voltage will also be lower. Without changing the LLC script, the new mark was “1.34 V”.


Phantom 6: https://3dnews.ru/979727



> Thermalright Archon IB-E X2 I removed and re-installed the NZXT Kraken X62, and above the power converter I hung a 140-mm fan, which completely blows around the near-socket space.The fact that the BIOS of the board seriously overstates the voltage in the default mode of operation is evident from the fact that I received a stable 4.9 GHz in programs using AVX instructions.For this, I even lowered the VCore voltage in Offset mode to the same 25 mV using the fourth level LLC.Hopefully, ASRock will somehow fix this situation.The energy level of the test bench increased from 270 to 315 watts.
> 
> 
> Unfortunately, when setting the frequency to 5 GHz with a voltage of -25 mV, the power converter began to overheat again - the frequency dropped to 4.0 GHz.Attempts to lower the voltage in the Offset mode led to an unstable system operation in LinX.But in games and programs that do not use a vector set of commands, the Core i9-9900K operated at a frequency of 5 GHz.



Z390-E STRIX: https://3dnews.ru/976930/page-2.html




> Immediately I will say that I got a pretty good sample Core i7-9700K, which is able to work stably at LinX and Prime95 at 4.9 GHz when all eight cores are loaded.To do this, we had to increase the voltage of the CPU Core Voltage to 1.38 V, as well as set the fifth level of Load-Line Calibration.Colleagues report that not everyone is so lucky.At the same time, the processor could not work stably at this frequency until the power converter received additional active cooling.



Aorus Pro: https://3dnews.ru/978510/page-2.html



> Thirdly, the GIGABYTE Z390 AORUS PRO power converter was heated to 100+ degrees Celsius in the case of our Core i9-9900K, too, it turned out without problems. The above result once again confirms what I said earlier: with 8-core Coffee Lake Refresh, when performing demanding tasks, every single motherboard will get very hot. Therefore, by the way, it’s funny to look at the test results of any bloggers: how they have the Core i9-9900K, overclocked to 5 GHz, heats the converter to just 60 degrees Celsius - for me personally remains a mystery.
> However, even though I managed to overclock my GIGABYTE Z390 AORUS PRO with my Core i9-9900K to 5 GHz (to do this, I had to increase the voltage to 1,435 V and set the Load-Line Calibration parameter to High), use the system in 24 mode / 7 at these temperatures, I certainly would not. As they say, less is better. At the same time, GIGABYTE itself recommends using LLC-Turbo mode and set the voltage for Core i9-9900K not higher than 1.35-1.40 V. In such conditions, according to the manufacturer, the power converter will not heat up above 100 degrees Celsius.
> In this regard, it is necessary to note once again a rather obvious thing: the dispersal of any computer device is always an “individual” story. I already wrote that for one successful Lake Coffee Refresh overclocking plan, there are several unsuccessful ones at once. There is a second point: for example, games do not load the CPU in the same way as programs of the LinX caliber do. Consequently, for such a usage scenario, there is no point in so exerting a strain. Naturally, the motherboard power converter will also warm up less. However, in reviews I always test computers, laptops and motherboards with programs like LinX or Prime95. If the system behaves absolutely stable in them, it means that it will work stably in all other programs without exception.





https://www.hardwarezone.com.sg/fea...temperature-power-consumption-overclocking-47



> The Gigabyte Z390 Aorus Xtreme had the best overclocking performance. Even though it achieved the same 5.1GHz clock speed as the ASUS and MSI boards, it was able to make the best of it and produce the largest performance increase. The ASUS board was pretty disappointing, as it managed just a meager 2 per cent improvement.
> However, the ASUS ROG Maximus XI Extreme provided the best overclocking experience with the most intuitive BIOS interface. All the important controls were located in the same section, eliminating the need to constantly move between different sub-menus.


Maximus XI extreme has better VRM temps in Firestrike at stock settings probably because IR35201 needs ~8A to turn on a phase 

https://www.infineon.com/dgdl/Infin...N.pdf?fileId=5546d462576f347501579c95d19772b5


----------



## Robbært

AlphaC said:


> Also 3dnews had a few reviews with zero airflow in LinX:


you missed one fresh review
ASRock Z390 Phantom Gaming 6
9900K *stock* @4.7GHz all core VRM 111C link, first two images, coolers are different.
and same 4.7GHz with 140mm VRM cooler is at 96C (IO shield attached)
it also worth to note thermal camera show PCB 1 inch away from MOSFETs, they could be +10C easy


----------



## Jspinks020

I guess it's like similar like EVGA's that's an 11 phase pwm. Absolutely adequate and on the more side.


----------



## marcolisi

AlphaC said:


> @ Marcolisi, you're going to be cooler limited unless you use an AVX offset. Have you tried different fan setups?
> 
> Also 3dnews had a few reviews with zero airflow in LinX:


Hi! Thank you for the reply! I have no clue what that mean. I am new at overclocking. Would you be able to help me please?


----------



## AlphaC

marcolisi said:


> Hi! Thank you for the reply! I have no clue what that mean. I am new at overclocking. Would you be able to help me please?


 Have you tried following the guides for Maximus XI boards? 





https://rog.asus.com/articles/overclocking/how-to-overclock-your-system-using-ai-overclocking/


----------



## marcolisi

AlphaC said:


> marcolisi said:
> 
> 
> 
> Hi! Thank you for the reply! I have no clue what that mean. I am new at overclocking. Would you be able to help me please?
> 
> 
> 
> Have you tried following the guides for Maximus XI boards?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> https://rog.asus.com/articles/overclocking/how-to-overclock-your-system-using-ai-overclocking/
Click to expand...

Hi. I have tried to follow the tutorial of the 1st video but I can't reach that level of ghz unless I increase the voltage and getting close to 1.5v

For the AI overclocking , it took me to a little less than what i did by manually overclocking. 

Would you suggest a water cooling system and which one?


----------



## Raghar

marcolisi said:


> Hi! Thank you for the reply! I have no clue what that mean. I am new at overclocking. Would you be able to help me please?


Well, every new person tried to OC by his effort. Every skilled overclocker self-educated by his mistakes. And general advice decade ago was if you don't want to take risks, don't do that.

Experimentation is best way how to learn proper stuff.


----------



## VDNKh

Maybe someone here can help, I've posted the problem else where but I haven't been able to find an answer.

I have an i9 9900k and an ASRock Z390 Extreme4 v2.00. The problem is Load Line Calibration seems to have the opposite effect on stability as it's supposed to. 

Currently my daily use OC is 5.0 GHz, -3 AVX offset, 1.35 fixed voltage, LLC 4. Under SSE load that gives me a VCore of 1.200 v and temps in the mid 70s. If I switch it to LLC 2 I get a VCore of about 1.334 under load and temps in the high 70s, but it's unstable. I can reproduce this at 5.1 GHz as well between LLC 4 and LLC 3 where temps are in the 80s. Why would increasing the LLC cause instability? Is it the motherboard's power delivery?


----------



## wingman99

VDNKh said:


> Maybe someone here can help, I've posted the problem else where but I haven't been able to find an answer.
> 
> I have an i9 9900k and an ASRock Z390 Extreme4 v2.00. The problem is Load Line Calibration seems to have the opposite effect on stability as it's supposed to.
> 
> Currently my daily use OC is 5.0 GHz, -3 AVX offset, 1.35 fixed voltage, LLC 4. Under SSE load that gives me a VCore of 1.200 v and temps in the mid 70s. If I switch it to LLC 2 I get a VCore of about 1.334 under load and temps in the high 70s, but it's unstable. I can reproduce this at 5.1 GHz as well between LLC 4 and LLC 3 where temps are in the 80s. Why would increasing the LLC cause instability? Is it the motherboard's power delivery?


LLC (Load line calibration) is for Load line.
With default settings there is load line because the operation of transistors is nonlinear current vs the voltage.

Load line (electronics)
In graphical analysis of nonlinear electronic circuits, a load line is a line drawn on the characteristic curve, a graph of the current vs the voltage in a nonlinear device like a diode or transistor. 
It represents the constraint put on the voltage and current in the nonlinear device by the external circuit. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Load_line_(electronics)

Load line AUTO (5) lets processor use increased volts with less current and decrease volts with increased current. That is how all transistors work correctly with load line stock. We defeat Load line calibration because most folks don't do the testing you did to see you can use lower voltage with load than idle.


----------



## VDNKh

wingman99 said:


> LLC (Load line calibration) is for Load line.
> With default settings there is load line because the operation of transistors is nonlinear current vs the voltage.
> 
> Load line (electronics)
> In graphical analysis of nonlinear electronic circuits, a load line is a line drawn on the characteristic curve, a graph of the current vs the voltage in a nonlinear device like a diode or transistor.
> It represents the constraint put on the voltage and current in the nonlinear device by the external circuit. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Load_line_(electronics)
> 
> Load line AUTO (5) lets processor use increased volts with less current and decrease volts with increased current. That is how all transistors work correctly with load line stock. We defeat Load line calibration because most folks don't do the testing you did to see you can use lower voltage with load than idle.


Kinda funny how literally all the other advice I read on the Internet doesn't explain it like that. Thanks. Makes me wonder how accurate people's judgement of their CPU binning really is. 

I did find another way to bump my frequencies up a bit more too. If I switch to Offset mode LLC 5 I can get a tighter AVX offset and cache ratio with almost the same load voltages and lower idle voltages. I was able to get all the way up to 5.3 GHz in Timespy Extreme CPU without crashing but the temps were in the 90s. I'm too scared to vet that frequency with P95.


----------



## wingman99

VDNKh said:


> Kinda funny how literally all the other advice I read on the Internet doesn't explain it like that. Thanks. Makes me wonder how accurate people's judgement of their CPU binning really is.
> 
> I did find another way to bump my frequencies up a bit more too. If I switch to Offset mode LLC 5 I can get a tighter AVX offset and cache ratio with almost the same load voltages and lower idle voltages. I was able to get all the way up to 5.3 GHz in Timespy Extreme CPU without crashing but the temps were in the 90s. I'm too scared to vet that frequency with P95.


Yes transistors are nonlinear in operation Phones, PC, cars, anything with a transistor operates with load line. Link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Load_line_(electronics)


----------



## sdch

elmor said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> A note on voltage reporting on the Maximus XI-series, and voltage measurements in general. Like on Crosshair VII Hero, we've improved the SIO voltage readings for better accuracy. The CPU Core Voltage is now reading very close to the voltage the CPU is getting. Applied voltages and load-line levels are comparable to before, but not the software voltage readings.
> 
> When measuring voltages on a motherboard and large currents are involved, it's important to use accurate measurement points due to resistance/impedance present on the board. The power plane for example can be modeled as a resistor connected in series between the VRM output and the target device, together with Ohm's law, U = R*I. The larger the current, the larger the voltage drop. If you measure the voltage at the VRM output, for example at the inductor, you'll see a large difference compared to the voltage measured at the CPU socket MLCC. What we're interested in is what voltage the CPU die is actually getting after passing through the output filter, power plane, socket and package.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Super I/O controller is used by BIOS/AiSuite/CPU-Z/HWInfo/AIDA64 for reading most voltages, temperatures and fan speeds. Its single-ended ADC inputs measure the input voltage referenced to the local SIO ground. With increased VRM output currents, this reading will be more and more inaccurate. We've added a circuit for measuring the differential CPU-die sense and converting it to a single-ended signal to the SIO. The CPU-die sense is accessible through two dedicated pins on the CPU, and are routed to the supply and ground on the CPU die itself. It's typically used by the CPU VRM controller for output voltage control.
> 
> Something to look out for is when you're seeing a voltage reported during load which is much higher than what you've set. It would require a negative load-line which is just not supported on any controller as far as I know. At 0 mOhm load-line, you get exactly what you set (Level 8 on M11).
> 
> The resulting difference can be seen in the graph below.
> 
> Prime95 26.6 12K FFTs
> 
> Manual Mode Voltage = Voltage set in BIOS
> CPU-die Sense = DMM measurement of the CPU die-sense pins, "true" CPU Core Voltage
> Socket MLCC = DMM measurement of the capacitors at the back of the socket
> SIO (traditional) = Software reading with standard SIO voltage sense circuit
> SIO (Maximus XI Hero) = Software reading with the improved SIO voltage sense circuit


Does anyone know how the Maximus X Apex fits into this diagram? The X Apex uses a Nuvoton NCT6793D implementation which I believe is the same as the X Hero. If the implemented circuits are the same, then this is considered a "traditional SIO" as defined by elmor.

I'm also curious what the ProbeIt points are actually measuring. I suspect it's just the SIO voltage sense circuit, and the differences with the HWiNFO values are simply due to quantization error. That would mean the CPU-die Sense (the "true" CPU core voltage) is actually ~100mV lower, just like all the other X series boards. Any additional insight would be greatly appreciated.

Here's my data for the X Apex using elmor's test method (Prime95 v26.6, 12K In-Place FFTs, 9900K at 4.8GHz, Fixed 1.3V Manual Vcore, Varying LLC):


----------



## elmor

sdch said:


> Does anyone know how the Maximus X Apex fits into this diagram? The X Apex uses a Nuvoton NCT6793D implementation which I believe is the same as the X Hero. If the implemented circuits are the same, then this is considered a "traditional SIO" as defined by elmor.
> 
> I'm also curious what the ProbeIt points are actually measuring. I suspect it's just the SIO voltage sense circuit, and the differences with the HWiNFO values are simply due to quantization error. That would mean the CPU-die Sense (the "true" CPU core voltage) is actually ~100mV lower, just like all the other X series boards. Any additional insight would be greatly appreciated.
> 
> Here's my data for the X Apex using elmor's test method (Prime95 v26.6, 12K In-Place FFTs, 9900K at 4.8GHz, Fixed 1.3V Manual Vcore, Varying LLC):



Those assumptions are correct, good to see testing to verify mine. Any board before Maximus XI or Crosshair VII will behave like that. ProbeIt points are also improved on the newer boards to read the CPU die-sense. There are still errors from ADC granularity (step size 9mV) and accuracy (usually 1 step), plus board component tolerances and there's always noise. In most cases this would add up to an error of 10-15mV.


----------



## sdch

elmor said:


> Those assumptions are correct, good to see testing to verify mine. Any board before Maximus XI or Crosshair VII will behave like that. ProbeIt points are also improved on the newer boards to read the CPU die-sense. There are still errors from ADC granularity (step size 9mV) and accuracy (usually 1 step), plus board component tolerances and there's always noise. In most cases this would add up to an error of 10-15mV.


Perfect, thanks elmor.


----------



## Falkentyne

sdch said:


> Perfect, thanks elmor.


This is incredible.
How did you make a chart like that?
Is it part of a microsoft office package?

And thank you for all the help, @elmor !
I know how busy you are and it's rare for engineers to have time to jump in with the end users.


----------



## sdch

Falkentyne said:


> This is incredible.
> How did you make a chart like that?
> Is it part of a microsoft office package?
> 
> And thank you for all the help, @elmor !
> I know how busy you are and it's rare for engineers to have time to jump in with the end users.


It's the default Google Sheets chart template. Not as powerful as Excel (or Python), but really handy for simple things. And yeah, it's always a pleasant surprise getting a concise answer from the source.


----------



## GeneO

wingman99 said:


> Yes transistors are nonlinear in operation Phones, PC, cars, anything with a transistor operates with load line. Link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Load_line_(electronics)



I think any electronics operates with a load line. Some are linear, some not.


----------



## wingman99

GeneO said:


> I think any electronics operates with a load line. Some are linear, some not.


Load line (electronics)
In graphical analysis of nonlinear electronic circuits, a load line is a line drawn on the characteristic curve, a graph of the current vs the voltage in a nonlinear device like a diode or transistor. 
It represents the constraint put on the voltage and current in the nonlinear device by the external circuit. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Load_line_(electronics)


----------



## GeneO

nm


----------



## eric98k

EVGA Z390 DARK VRM:

Dual 8-pin EPS connectors
Vcore: 12-phase, PWM controller ISL69138, 12x ISL99227 60A SPS
Vccsa: ISL99140 40A DrMOS
Vccio: ISL99140 40A DrMOS
Vccgt: 2-phase, PWM controller ISL69133, 2x ISL99227 60A SPS
Vddr: 1x ISL99227 60A SPS
Max power rating ~800W

Edit: it's in stock now for 500 USD:


Product page online
Feature breakdown article: "The Z390 DARK features a 17-phase Digital VRM (12 VCore, 1 VSA, 1 VCCIO, 2 VGT, 1 Phase Memory PWM) for the cleanest, most stable power design to ensure that you're ready for Intel®'s Core i9 Processors."
PCB & VRM layout image
Spec sheet (pdf)


----------



## Robostyle

Hm, specsheet says 6918 is 7phase controller.
Seems like they use doublers for vcore, and doubled signal for both sa and io sitting on the second channel.
Well, they better use doublers

*elmor*
BTW, regarding vcore readings in old motherboards, before XI - were there any compensation/correction for output digits?
Are all those vcore numbers I can see, for example, in HWinfo or cpu-z, while sitting on M10H, 100mV higher than real voltage supplied?
Should I take account of this variance when overclocking on maximus X board? Skylake based cpu are fine with voltage up to ~1.52V. Thus, can I throw 1.45V in UEFI settings safely (well, relatively safely), just in order to keep the real voltage around 1.35V?


----------



## Falkentyne

Robostyle said:


> Hm, specsheet says 6918 is 7phase controller.
> Seems like they use doublers for vcore, and doubled signal for both sa and io sitting on the second channel.
> Well, they better use doublers
> 
> *elmor*
> BTW, regarding vcore readings in old motherboards, before XI - were there any compensation/correction for output digits?
> Are all those vcore numbers I can see, for example, in HWinfo or cpu-z, while sitting on M10H, 100mV higher than real voltage supplied?
> Should I take account of this variance when overclocking on maximus X board? Skylake based cpu are fine with voltage up to ~1.52V. Thus, can I throw 1.45V in UEFI settings safely (well, relatively safely), just in order to keep the real voltage around 1.35V?


You need to find the voltage controller (e.g. Intersil, Infineon (Renesas, etc) and find the pinout which corresponds to CPU VCPU and i think VIN(?)--not, and solder two wires there, then you read cpu on-die sense vcore that way. (VSS Sense and VCC Sense)

It's shown here

https://youtu.be/8na-dENz6Ag?t=457


----------



## sdch

Falkentyne said:


> You need to find the voltage controller (e.g. Intersil, Infineon (Renesas, etc) and find the pinout which corresponds to CPU VCPU and i think VIN(?)--not, and solder two wires there, then you read cpu on-die sense vcore that way. (VSS Sense and VCC Sense)
> 
> It's shown here
> 
> https://youtu.be/8na-dENz6Ag?t=457


Thanks for the video link. Pretty neat info starting at 8:12 since the timestamp isn't working for me. I've heard rumors that the ASP1405I PWM controller you see on a lot on ASUS boards (including the Maximus X Apex) is a rebadged IR35201. If that's true and the pin-out matches and there's a similar cap nearby to probe and I don't blow up the board, I wonder how accurate the Vcore reading is. Lots of ifs there. Hmm... maybe it's time to pop off the VRM heatsink and have a look.

IR35201 (from datasheet):

















ASP1405I (photo from Tweaktown review for M10A):


----------



## eric98k

EVGA Z390 DARK in stock now for 500 USD:

Product page online: https://www.evga.com/products/product.aspx?pn=131-CS-E399-KR

Feature breakdown article: https://www.evga.com/articles/01296/evga-z390-dark-motherboard/

PCB & VRM layout image: https://images.evga.com/articles/01296/additional-feature/visual-guide.jpg

Spec sheet (pdf): https://www.evga.com/products/pdf/131-CS-E399-KR.pdf


----------



## sdch

I believe I found the correct pins to measure the CPU die-sense ("true" CPU core voltage) on the Maximus X Apex and any other board that use the ASP1405I PWM controller (many Asus boards).

The traces from pins 5 and 6 pass through to the back of the motherboard through a pair of vias. I followed the traces and found exposed test points that are easy to access, even when the board is mounted in a case.










Here are DMM measurements I made using those test points (green line). The values are roughly 100mV below the "traditional" SIO measurements and never exceed the manual mode voltage set point. This matches up with elmor's data and comments for CPU die-sense.










Pins 5 and 6 on the ASP1405I are likely VSEN/VCPU and VRTN, respectively. I guess this is a differential voltage sense used by the ASP1405I for feedback.

@elmor can you confirm this is correct?


----------



## wingman99

On the GIGABYTE Z390 UD LGA 1151 can folks plug in the CPU 8 pin and leave the CPU 4 pin disconnected?


----------



## Robbært

wingman99 said:


> On the GIGABYTE Z390 UD LGA 1151 can folks plug in the CPU 8 pin and leave the CPU 4 pin disconnected?


It seems you can on any z390 board.


----------



## elmor

sdch said:


> I believe I found the correct pins to measure the CPU die-sense ("true" CPU core voltage) on the Maximus X Apex and any other board that use the ASP1405I PWM controller (many Asus boards).
> 
> The traces from pins 5 and 6 pass through to the back of the motherboard through a pair of vias. I followed the traces and found exposed test points that are easy to access, even when the board is mounted in a case.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here are DMM measurements I made using those test points (green line). The values are roughly 100mV below the "traditional" SIO measurements and never exceed the manual mode voltage set point. This matches up with elmor's data and comments for CPU die-sense.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pins 5 and 6 on the ASP1405I are likely VSEN/VCPU and VRTN, respectively. I guess this is a differential voltage sense used by the ASP1405I for feedback.
> 
> @elmor can you confirm this is correct?



Nice work! Yes that looks correct.


----------



## wingman99

Robbært said:


> It seems you can on any z390 board.


Thanks for the information.


----------



## I Am The Stig

Hi all - I was wondering if anyone can help me out here. I’ve had this on my Aorus Ultra and Master. I’m not sure if it’s coil whine, but I can hear a distinct high frequency pitch coming from my motherboard (tested it with fans off, psu isolated, none are the culprit). It seems to ramp up during intense load as well. I’m getting annoyed because this frequency gives me a headache after a certain period.

Here’s a video (you might have to tap to enable sound). Top video is under load, bottom is idle).

http://imgur.com/a/Nm31da0

I’ve tried disabling cstates, used an EVGA G3/G2 and RM750x power supplies and even tried the regedit trick. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks.


----------



## asdkj1740

turns out the dark is 12 phases vcore design rather than 16 phases design like godlike and apex and aorus xtreme.

https://www.evga.com/articles/01296/evga-z390-dark-motherboard/
https://images.evga.com/products/gallery/131-CS-E399-KR_XL_6.jpg
https://images.evga.com/articles/01296/additional-feature/visual-guide.jpg
the back side pcb pic is not clear enough to see whehter there are doublers for the bottom 8 vcore phases.
while the VISUAL GUIDE / BENCH TABLE pic shows there are 2 dobulers for the right 4 vcore phases on the front side of the pcb.

if so, then asus would be the only one using parallel design on tier 1.


----------



## sdch

elmor said:


> Nice work! Yes that looks correct.


Sweet. Thanks again.


----------



## AndyG

*Practice and cheap but powerful AIOs.*



Raghar said:


> Well, every new person tried to OC by his effort. Every skilled overclocker self-educated by his mistakes. And general advice decade ago was if you don't want to take risks, don't do that.
> 
> Experimentation is best way how to learn proper stuff.


Exactly. At first need to learn the terminology and basic principles, but then it's about experience. I've been OCing since 1st gen i7 940. After getting familiar with a generation (3rd Ivy for instance) then the particular chip, difficult to explain, but a kind of intuition sets in. Not logical but seems true. Practice and more practice, will result in some really good OCs.

I haven't updated my profile for ages, but currently running 5.3GHz with offset voltage, never reaches 1.4v and temps and stability are great. It's a 8086k on Taichi board z370. Didn't take long to get fully stable, I run as many different stress tests as possible rather than say 48 hours with just prime95. The new LIN pack tests are my current favourite. Prime seems less relevant now, but that's just my opinion.

Main point, it only took a few hours, with short tests, then settled on 5.3GHz and ran loads of tests, stable never crashed once. That would have taken me ages 6 or 7 years ago. (H100X cheapest, no software, but beefy budget corsair cooler used.) Kit Guru reviews it as better than almost every other AIO, and this one is just the basics. No link, nothing. Not quiet when working hard, but just pure cooling goodness.) If memory serves it was only $89?. Just fans and a denser rad than normal. 240mm goodness, if you ONLY want cooling and don't care about LED, ultra quiet etc, software bundle - this is good. So is the Arctic 240mm. Again, nothing extra, but double thick rad, very dense, and four fans out the box. Problem is it's so tall it wont' fit in all cases. Also less than $ 100 but top of kitguru charts. Beats all expensive 360mm,(according to Kit Guru testing) and this is only 240mm.


----------



## asdkj1740

https://www.expreview.com//66288.html#comment
colorful z390
seems to be 8+2+1+1


----------



## Wakoo

Hello

Quick question, I just read the whole topic and I end up with 2 motherboards meeting my needs which are PS/2, Dual Lan, fully disableable wifi, and Decent audio chip(Not a downgrade from my current PCI SoundBlaster LS):

-The Gigabyte Z390 Designare at 300€ (+removing the Wifi card)
-The Asrock Phantom Gaming 6 at 230€

The processor will be a 9700K.

I can't find direct comparison between both of these and I don't need the extra IO from the Designare. Are the extra 70€ worth it for the extra audio quality(Speaker are Logitech Z623), vrm efficiency and sensor ?

Thanks you for your help.


----------



## Alexandrus

Z390 Taichi would be my vote.
WiFi can be disabled in BIOS for all motherboards, you need not worry about that, or even removing the card which is pointless.


----------



## Falkentyne

Wakoo said:


> Hello
> 
> Quick question, I just read the whole topic and I end up with 2 motherboards meeting my needs which are PS/2, Dual Lan, fully disableable wifi, and Decent audio chip(Not a downgrade from my current PCI SoundBlaster LS):
> 
> -The Gigabyte Z390 Designare at 300€ (+removing the Wifi card)
> -The Asrock Phantom Gaming 6 at 230€
> 
> The processor will be a 9700K.
> 
> I can't find direct comparison between both of these and I don't need the extra IO from the Designare. Are the extra 70€ worth it for the extra audio quality(Speaker are Logitech Z623), vrm efficiency and sensor ?
> 
> Thanks you for your help.


Why do you want PS/2 ports? That port needs to completely utterly die.
And you are sorely limiting your choices of boards by wanting that port.
The last time I wanted a PS/2 port was when using certain programmable controllers that needed the PS/2 port. And I was using *GAMEPORTS* on soundcards back then too. That port needs to die painfully.
So what's so important about it?

The Designaire does have the two LAN ports, but one thing it is sorely lacking are the bios hardware dip switches, which are extremely useful, as you can control the backup and main bios.

The Xtreme has the two LAN ports and switches but does not have PS/2.


----------



## tostitobandito

PS/2 still has its niche uses, and given the option it is objectively better than USB (though most people probably wouldn't notice). I know the Deck mechanical keyboard I've had for a number of years also came in a PS/2 version instead of USB, because with PS/2 you get full n key rollover (can press any number of keys at once and all register). There's also some smaller benefits like not relying on USB polling for better response time (PS/2 "interrupts" the CPU when input is received instead of being polled), and not relying on USB controllers/drivers being functional in the first place (like in unstable/XOC scenarios). A PS/2 peripheral will almost always just work, even in adverse situations.

Unfortunately I didn't have PS/2 on my machine at the time so my keyboard is USB. Since PS/2 ports seem to be making a comeback on certain motherboards like the one I just got, if I were buying a keyboard now and had the option I'd probably go for PS/2. Yes USB is more convenient and widely used, but PS/2 likely isn't going anywhere in the near future so there's no reason not to use it if you have it and plan on continuing to have machines which support it.


----------



## Wakoo

First sorry about the offtopic discution. Second thanks for your answers 


Alexandrus said:


> Z390 Taichi would be my vote.
> WiFi can be disabled in BIOS for all motherboards, you need not worry about that, or even removing the card which is pointless.


The Taichi seems to have a very slight better audio circuitry than the Designare:

https://www.tweaktown.com/reviews/8777/asrock-z390-taichi-intel-motherboard-review/index5.html
https://www.tweaktown.com/reviews/8862/gigabyte-z390-designare-intel-motherboard-preview/index9.html

I also love the extra fan header but why didn't they put extra temp sensor ?

The issue I have with the wifi is the IME(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_Management_Engine), the bios can only ask the chipset to disable wifi. It's easy to bench, just compare the global power consumption between the disabled wifi in bios and the one with removed wifi chip. I can do that easily on the Designare, much less on the Taichi where I have to remove the shroud. And the power consumption is only half the story since the chipset can still have a potential backdoor. I would be more than happy if someone has the result of the test.



Falkentyne said:


> Why do you want PS/2 ports? That port needs to completely utterly die.
> And you are sorely limiting your choices of boards by wanting that port.
> The last time I wanted a PS/2 port was when using certain programmable controllers that needed the PS/2 port. And I was using *GAMEPORTS* on soundcards back then too. That port needs to die painfully.
> So what's so important about it?
> 
> The Designaire does have the two LAN ports, but one thing it is sorely lacking are the bios hardware dip switches, which are extremely useful, as you can control the backup and main bios.
> 
> The Xtreme has the two LAN ports and switches but does not have PS/2.


I want it because my current keyboard is PS/2, and I don't plan on buying another one anytime soon, also my option is limited because Gigabyte decided to ditch it on most of its Z390 board, but it was on every gigabyte motherboard in Z370. The port is also present on the high-end part everywhere.

The hardware switch for the BIOS is definitely against my Designare choice, thank you for pointing it out. I don't have it on my 8 year old motherboard so I didn't check for it.

FYI I bought the Soundblaster LS to have a gameport on my computer , and because I'm so used to my sidewinder gamepad, I even started a little adaptation card to convert the (non-standard) gameport signal to USB when 7 dropped the support for it. 



tostitobandito said:


> PS/2 still has its niche uses, and given the option it is objectively better than USB (though most people probably wouldn't notice). I know the Deck mechanical keyboard I've had for a number of years also came in a PS/2 version instead of USB, because with PS/2 you get full n key rollover (can press any number of keys at once and all register). There's also some smaller benefits like not relying on USB polling for better response time (PS/2 "interrupts" the CPU when input is received instead of being polled), and not relying on USB controllers/drivers being functional in the first place (like in unstable/XOC scenarios). A PS/2 peripheral will almost always just work, even in adverse situations.
> 
> Unfortunately I didn't have PS/2 on my machine at the time so my keyboard is USB. Since PS/2 ports seem to be making a comeback on certain motherboards like the one I just got, if I were buying a keyboard now and had the option I'd probably go for PS/2. Yes USB is more convenient and widely used, but PS/2 likely isn't going anywhere in the near future so there's no reason not to use it if you have it and plan on continuing to have machines which support it.


That's another reason I don't rush into the USB keyboard, it's a sidegrade at best and PS/2 is getting pushed out because people love the RGB. 
I also prefer to have an interrupt based system instead of a polling system, but it's my developer OCD that kicks in.


----------



## asdkj1740

https://www.chiphell.com/thread-1950306-2-1.html
#45, toppc explains why msi doesnt use drmos/sms on msi ace z390.
because msi r&d decides not to use any mid to low end drmos/sms as they cant take much heat.
z390 ace vrm is not cost saving, but rather a misunderstanding that msi has tuned the "vr alert" to brake the vrm before overheating.
msi is the first manufacture introducing drmos into mobo vrm, eg z77 mpower. msi has studied a lot on mosfet since then.


i think what he say is that the mosfet being used on msi ace is not bad. and then it implies the cooling is not good enough only.


----------



## Telstar

tostitobandito said:


> PS/2 still has its niche uses, and given the option it is objectively better than USB (though most people probably wouldn't notice). I know the Deck mechanical keyboard I've had for a number of years also came in a PS/2 version instead of USB, because with PS/2 you get full n key rollover (can press any number of keys at once and all register). There's also some smaller benefits like not relying on USB polling for better response time (PS/2 "interrupts" the CPU when input is received instead of being polled), and not relying on USB controllers/drivers being functional in the first place (like in unstable/XOC scenarios). A PS/2 peripheral will almost always just work, even in adverse situations.
> 
> Unfortunately I didn't have PS/2 on my machine at the time so my keyboard is USB. Since PS/2 ports seem to be making a comeback on certain motherboards like the one I just got, if I were buying a keyboard now and had the option I'd probably go for PS/2. Yes USB is more convenient and widely used, but PS/2 likely isn't going anywhere in the near future so there's no reason not to use it if you have it and plan on continuing to have machines which support it.


I still use my IBM model M. PS/2 is a flawless connection for keyboard and mouse - it never give problem. Unless you need light, macros or other stuff there is no need to use an usb keyboard.
The niche market is either old style aficionados like me, or extreme overclockers who disable usb ports altogether.
Speaking of z390 motherboards this was a big plus point for me in deciding to buy the Gene.


----------



## AlphaC

asdkj1740 said:


> https://www.chiphell.com/thread-1950306-2-1.html
> #45, toppc explains why msi doesnt use drmos/sms on msi ace z390.
> because msi r&d decides not to use any mid to low end drmos/sms as they cant take much heat.
> z390 ace vrm is not cost saving, but rather a misunderstanding that msi has tuned the "vr alert" to brake the vrm before overheating.
> msi is the first manufacture introducing drmos into mobo vrm, eg z77 mpower. msi has studied a lot on mosfet since then.
> 
> 
> i think what he say is that the mosfet being used on msi ace is not bad. and then it implies the cooling is not good enough only.


 Pretty sure that Gigabyte was first to market with IR3550 and Asrock was first with ISL99227B. Before that, on X58 Gigabyte had Vishay SiC769 DrMos at the same time MSI had Fairchild / Renesas DrMos on X58.


MSI was using Renesas powerstages on Z77 Mpower and it's wasn't fully digital. It wasn't until Z87/X97 Xpower that MSI put on IR3550 powerstages but then that is only on the flagship. What good is it if you only put powerstages and powerblocks on your most expensive boards which happen to be over twice the price of the high volume midrange? It's a mainstream socket.
https://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/MSI/Z77_MPower/5.html , https://www.overclock.net/forum/6-i...-msi-z77-mpower-ic-breakdown-fancy-chart.html


Spec: https://www.renesas.com/us/en/doc/products/transistor/002/r07ds0548ej_r2j20655b.pdf ---> 35A average output current and "Safe operating area"


It was the same one used on the GD65: https://www.hardwaresecrets.com/msi-z77a-gd65-motherboard/6/


There's no efficiency numbers but it performed on par with Z77 Extreme6 which used powerpaks (onsemi 4927N+4935N). Around Z87 time Asrock had a major turn around, that's when they put NexFETs on everything down to the Extreme6 (which was also used on Z87 ROG Hero) and also launched the Taichi after X99.



I don't believe the MSI excuse since the SiC639 / SiC634 used on Asus + Gigabyte are about $1 each , which might be even less money than two $0.30 mosfets and a driver when you account for assembly time of 3 components instead of 1. Powerstages have gone down in price, not up. I think the real reason is something like supplier agreements. Maybe there was an agreement to use the Onsemi 4C029N + 4C024N and also they don't need to switch out the mosfets in the machines at the assembly process. A $500+ Xpower is such a low volume product that it is probably just for bragging rights.



If you look at the delays and rise time (or any other major metric such as RDS(on) or thermal resistance), the powerpaks on the MSI ace just aren't impressive whatsoever. Maybe if you compare them to a low end board on Z390, but not even up against a mid tier Z390-A or Z390 Extreme4 that cost ~$180.


-----


Is it settled that the Z390 Dark is 12x ISL99227B?


eric98k said:


> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KiS6HWsPUSw
> 
> EVGA Z390 DARK VRM:
> 
> Dual 8-pin EPS connectors
> Vcore: 12-phase, PWM controller ISL69138, 12x ISL99227 60A SPS
> Vccsa: ISL99140 40A DrMOS
> Vccio: ISL99140 40A DrMOS
> Vccgt: 2-phase, PWM controller ISL69133, 2x ISL99227 60A SPS
> Vddr: 1x ISL99227 60A SPS
> Max power rating ~800W
> 
> Edit: it's in stock now for 500 USD:
> 
> 
> Product page online
> Feature breakdown article: "The Z390 DARK features a 17-phase Digital VRM (12 VCore, 1 VSA, 1 VCCIO, 2 VGT, 1 Phase Memory PWM) for the cleanest, most stable power design to ensure that you're ready for Intel®'s Core i9 Processors."
> PCB & VRM layout image
> Spec sheet (pdf)


----------



## asdkj1740

https://www.chiphell.com/thread-1950306-3-1.html
#61

toppc:
z390 ace has ln2 mode.
the consideration of msi r&d to z390 ace is then how much heat can mosfets take at high current.
the first bios set the vrm throttling temp too low in default, causing the vrm throttles a lot in reality and got found out by lots of meida.
it can be changed on bios and msi r&d team was thinking users would manually increase the temp throttling point instead.
the current bios has fixed this issue.


toppc seems to be the msi oc team leader for testing hardwares and tuning bios but not a r&d engineer.
and msi seems dont care about mos temp and they dont like what they called "mid to low end fully integrated mosfets", although msi extended heatsink design (which has proved to be very efficient) has already got copied by other competitors.
interesting.


btw, seen lots of 2060 strix oc heatsink's theraml pad, asus qc sucks. the stock thermal pad cant even cover the whole cooling plate of the heatsink. seems asus has put the 1800r design on monitor into vrm cooling on gpu. the hkepc one lmao.
https://www.hkepc.com/17585/NVIDIA_主流級_RTX_新卡_ASUS_ROG_STRIX_GeForce_RTX_2060_登場/page/5#view
https://file.hkepc.net/2019/01/source/1418265212484303712.jpg
https://file.hkepc.net/2019/01/source/14172929691993944404.jpg


----------



## elmor

For those interested in scope measurements, I did manage to get some results to show what overshoot looks like in a real world scenario. It's still a bit noiser than I'd like but it should be clear enough to see what's going on.

I'm not going to disclose which board this was, but it's a Z370 board in the ~200 USD price range tested together with a 9900K at 4.8GHz 1.25V set in BIOS loaded with Prime95 29.1. At the lowest load-line setting available (lowest amount of droop), the idle voltage measured at the CPU die-sense is 1.25V and under load ~1.20V. Measured output current was 152A and CPU power consumption ~180W. This means the lowest available load-line setting is about (1.25V-1.20V)/152A = 0.33mOhm.

CH1 (Yellow) = Negative CPU-die sense (Vcore-/GND)
CH2 (Purple) = Positive CPU-die sense (Vcore+)
MATH (White) = Differential CH2-CH1 using the scope math function showing resulting Vcore (Vcore+ - Vcore-)

The measurement was taken after running Prime95 for about 10 seconds, and then stopping it. What you see in the picture is the overshoot after the load disappears. The voltage measured on the Vcore- (CH1/Yellow) very well co-relates to the output current and shows the voltage drop across the ground plane. The spike goes up to 1.36V which means a peak-to-peak value of 1.36V-1.20V = 160mV. If you consider the 1.25V set-point as your reference, the overshoot is 110mV.

In order to not have any overshoot on this board, the recommended load-line value would theoretically be 160mV/152A = 1.05mOhm. It's difficult to co-relate the value to different boards as each vendor has ambiguous settings not disclosing the actual value, and boards will be better or worse. 

Bear in mind it's questionable how much damage such a brief voltage spike can cause with this kind of amplitude for a few microseconds. You'd also have to consider how much higher your idle voltage would have to be to be stable with the larger droop, very difficult to determine what's "best". The previous recommendation has been somewhere 1-2 steps down from the lowest load-line, and from these results I'd say that's still a good point. If you have a cheaper board, you should be more conservative. Then again the load-line settings will probably be less aggressive on such a board. I'll see if I can redo this test with a higher end board and see how big the difference is.


----------



## Falkentyne

elmor said:


> For those interested in scope measurements, I did manage to get some results to show what overshoot looks like in a real world scenario. It's still a bit noiser than I'd like but it should be clear enough to see what's going on.
> 
> I'm not going to disclose which board this was, but it's a Z370 board in the ~200 USD price range tested together with a 9900K at 4.8GHz 1.25V set in BIOS loaded with Prime95 29.1. At the lowest load-line setting available (lowest amount of droop), the idle voltage measured at the CPU die-sense is 1.25V and under load ~1.20V. Measured output current was 152A and CPU power consumption ~180W. This means the lowest available load-line setting is about (1.25V-1.20V)/152A = 0.33mOhm.
> 
> CH1 (Yellow) = Negative CPU-die sense (Vcore-/GND)
> CH2 (Purple) = Positive CPU-die sense (Vcore+)
> MATH (White) = Differential CH2-CH1 using the scope math function showing resulting Vcore (Vcore+ - Vcore-)
> 
> The measurement was taken after running Prime95 for about 10 seconds, and then stopping it. What you see in the picture is the overshoot after the load disappears. The voltage measured on the Vcore- (CH1/Yellow) very well co-relates to the output current and shows the voltage drop across the ground plane. The spike goes up to 1.36V which means a peak-to-peak value of 1.36V-1.20V = 160mV. If you consider the 1.25V set-point as your reference, the overshoot is 110mV.
> 
> In order to not have any overshoot on this board, the recommended load-line value would theoretically be 160mV/152A = 1.05mOhm. It's difficult to co-relate the value to different boards as each vendor has ambiguous settings not disclosing the actual value, and boards will be better or worse.
> 
> Bear in mind it's questionable how much damage such a brief voltage spike can cause with this kind of amplitude for a few microseconds. You'd also have to consider how much higher your idle voltage would have to be to be stable with the larger droop, very difficult to determine what's "best". The previous recommendation has been somewhere 1-2 steps down from the lowest load-line, and from these results I'd say that's still a good point. If you have a cheaper board, you should be more conservative. Then again the load-line settings will probably be less aggressive on such a board. I'll see if I can redo this test with a higher end board and see how big the difference is.


Thank you very much for this, Elmor !


----------



## asdkj1740

https://www.msi.com/blog/extended-heatsink-msi-vs-asus-rog-strix-b360-gaming
extended heatsink design seems to be a coming trend on vrm cooling, eg gigabyte z390m, asus rog z390i, asrock x299 extreme 4 etc


----------



## Nizzen

Maybe off topic, but Asus z390 apex is in stock in Norway


----------



## GAN77

Nizzen said:


> Maybe off topic, but Asus z390 apex is in stock in Norway


Price?)


----------



## Alexandrus

Wakoo said:


> First sorry about the offtopic discution. Second thanks for your answers
> 
> 
> The Taichi seems to have a very slight better audio circuitry than the Designare:
> 
> https://www.tweaktown.com/reviews/8777/asrock-z390-taichi-intel-motherboard-review/index5.html
> https://www.tweaktown.com/reviews/8862/gigabyte-z390-designare-intel-motherboard-preview/index9.html
> 
> I also love the extra fan header but why didn't they put extra temp sensor ?
> 
> The issue I have with the wifi is the IME(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_Management_Engine), the bios can only ask the chipset to disable wifi. It's easy to bench, just compare the global power consumption between the disabled wifi in bios and the one with removed wifi chip. I can do that easily on the Designare, much less on the Taichi where I have to remove the shroud. And the power consumption is only half the story since the chipset can still have a potential backdoor. I would be more than happy if someone has the result of the test.
> 
> 
> 
> I want it because my current keyboard is PS/2, and I don't plan on buying another one anytime soon, also my option is limited because Gigabyte decided to ditch it on most of its Z390 board, but it was on every gigabyte motherboard in Z370. The port is also present on the high-end part everywhere.
> 
> The hardware switch for the BIOS is definitely against my Designare choice, thank you for pointing it out. I don't have it on my 8 year old motherboard so I didn't check for it.
> 
> FYI I bought the Soundblaster LS to have a gameport on my computer , and because I'm so used to my sidewinder gamepad, I even started a little adaptation card to convert the (non-standard) gameport signal to USB when 7 dropped the support for it.
> 
> 
> 
> That's another reason I don't rush into the USB keyboard, it's a sidegrade at best and PS/2 is getting pushed out because people love the RGB.
> I also prefer to have an interrupt based system instead of a polling system, but it's my developer OCD that kicks in.


Do not bother with integrated Audio, they are all pretty much the same, and that is mediocre at best.
Been there, done that, an external DAC or even an internal sound card are FAR better choices.
The WiFi cards and their shrouds are easy to remove, BUT, from personal experience, on certain boards, you might get MEI errors afterwards that actually prevent the board from POSTing. There is a solution even in those cases, for sure, but you bother too much for too little, imho, just update the MEI firmware regularly and you should be OK ( https://www.win-raid.com/t596f39-Intel-Management-Engine-Drivers-Firmware-amp-System-Tools.html ).

If you are looking for a board with hardware selectable BIOS and dual BIOS, obviously, you will have a hard time finding one, I think there is no Z390 that meets all of the above criteria.


----------



## sdch

elmor said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> For those interested in scope measurements, I did manage to get some results to show what overshoot looks like in a real world scenario. It's still a bit noiser than I'd like but it should be clear enough to see what's going on.
> 
> I'm not going to disclose which board this was, but it's a Z370 board in the ~200 USD price range tested together with a 9900K at 4.8GHz 1.25V set in BIOS loaded with Prime95 29.1. At the lowest load-line setting available (lowest amount of droop), the idle voltage measured at the CPU die-sense is 1.25V and under load ~1.20V. Measured output current was 152A and CPU power consumption ~180W. This means the lowest available load-line setting is about (1.25V-1.20V)/152A = 0.33mOhm.
> 
> CH1 (Yellow) = Negative CPU-die sense (Vcore-/GND)
> CH2 (Purple) = Positive CPU-die sense (Vcore+)
> MATH (White) = Differential CH2-CH1 using the scope math function showing resulting Vcore (Vcore+ - Vcore-)
> 
> The measurement was taken after running Prime95 for about 10 seconds, and then stopping it. What you see in the picture is the overshoot after the load disappears. The voltage measured on the Vcore- (CH1/Yellow) very well co-relates to the output current and shows the voltage drop across the ground plane. The spike goes up to 1.36V which means a peak-to-peak value of 1.36V-1.20V = 160mV. If you consider the 1.25V set-point as your reference, the overshoot is 110mV.
> 
> In order to not have any overshoot on this board, the recommended load-line value would theoretically be 160mV/152A = 1.05mOhm. It's difficult to co-relate the value to different boards as each vendor has ambiguous settings not disclosing the actual value, and boards will be better or worse.
> 
> Bear in mind it's questionable how much damage such a brief voltage spike can cause with this kind of amplitude for a few microseconds. You'd also have to consider how much higher your idle voltage would have to be to be stable with the larger droop, very difficult to determine what's "best". The previous recommendation has been somewhere 1-2 steps down from the lowest load-line, and from these results I'd say that's still a good point. If you have a cheaper board, you should be more conservative. Then again the load-line settings will probably be less aggressive on such a board. I'll see if I can redo this test with a higher end board and see how big the difference is.


Neat, this is something I've been wanting to do for fun/curiosity. Is that a Siglent SDS1202X-E that you're using?


----------



## jelome1989

GAN77 said:


> Price?)


Saw a few listings, about $500-$550. I expect it to be available in Newegg/Amazon before the month ends, hopefully


----------



## elmor

GAN77 said:


> Price?)


Seems to be slightly below Code in Europe, from 370 EUR.



sdch said:


> Neat, this is something I've been wanting to do for fun/curiosity. Is that a Siglent SDS1202X-E that you're using?


Almost, it's the SDS1104X-E.


----------



## asdkj1740

http://koolshare.cn/thread-153383-1-1.html
MAXSUN (PALIT) MS-iCraft Z390 Gaming 
ISL69138, 5+2 MODE
5 ISL6617A DOUBLERS FOR TOTAL 10 VCORE, 10 ISL6596 DRIVERS
4 IGPU PHASES IN PARALLEL, 2 ISL6596 DRIVERS
MUD1516+MDU1514


----------



## Wakoo

Alexandrus said:


> Do not bother with integrated Audio, they are all pretty much the same, and that is mediocre at best.
> Been there, done that, an external DAC or even an internal sound card are FAR better choices.
> The WiFi cards and their shrouds are easy to remove, BUT, from personal experience, on certain boards, you might get MEI errors afterwards that actually prevent the board from POSTing. There is a solution even in those cases, for sure, but you bother too much for too little, imho, just update the MEI firmware regularly and you should be OK ( https://www.win-raid.com/t596f39-Intel-Management-Engine-Drivers-Firmware-amp-System-Tools.html ).
> 
> If you are looking for a board with hardware selectable BIOS and dual BIOS, obviously, you will have a hard time finding one, I think there is no Z390 that meets all of the above criteria.


Thanks you for your answer, I will have to compromise then.


----------



## Raghar

Actually, I looked at Z390 MBs, and I didn't see one with socketed BIOS, did I missed some affordable high end board, or are all Z390 boards with soldered BIOS?


----------



## KedarWolf

Raghar said:


> Actually, I looked at Z390 MBs, and I didn't see one with socketed BIOS, did I missed some affordable high end board, or are all Z390 boards with soldered BIOS?


Gigabyte Z390 Aorus Xtreme has a socketed dual BIOS.

Edit. Z390 Aorus Master has a socketed dual BIOS as well.


----------



## Nizzen

GAN77 said:


> Price?)



Asus Apex z390 4190kr (Norwegian Kroner)

Asus Gene z390 3690kr


----------



## eric98k

ASRock Z390 Extreme4 VRM analysis
https://www.tweaktown.com/reviews/8863/asrock-z390-extreme4-intel-motherboard-review/index3.html

PWM controller: uP9521P (5+2)
Vcc: 10x SM7341EH, 5x uP1965P dual drivers
Vccgt: 2x SM7341EH, 2x uP1962S drivers


----------



## AlphaC

eric98k said:


> ASRock Z390 Extreme4 VRM analysis
> https://www.tweaktown.com/reviews/8863/asrock-z390-extreme4-intel-motherboard-review/index3.html
> 
> PWM controller: uP9521P (5+2)
> Vcc: 10x SM7341EH, 5x uP1965P dual drivers
> Vccgt: 2x SM7341EH, 2x uP1962S drivers


Did you see the overclocking page? Not a good sign ... "We hit an issue we believe is specific to our model, so we were not able to overclock the CPU for results." 

Read more: https://www.tweaktown.com/reviews/8863/asrock-z390-extreme4-intel-motherboard-review/index7.html


About as warm as the MSI Edge ATX at stock as well.


--------


Also Maximus XI Extreme is reviewed at overclockers.ua : https://www.overclockers.ua/motherboard/asus-rog-maximus-XI-extreme/all/


----------



## GAN77

Some information about the VRM Maximus XI Apex?


----------



## Nizzen

GAN77 said:


> Some information about the VRM Maximus XI Apex?


It's good enough for ln2 7ghz + ????


----------



## toncij

Apparently, Asus Maximus XI F and Ex can both run a 5.3 9900K with zero issues and 4.273 CL17 RAM (4 sticks).


----------



## MrTOOSHORT

GAN77 said:


> Some information about the VRM Maximus XI Apex?




Post from Elmor back when....



> “M11H/C/F all use the same VRM configuration and parts (4x PWM signals each to 2x SiC639 without doublers)
> M11G/E uses 5x PWM signals each to 2x IR3555 without doublers
> M11A uses 8x PWM signals each to 2x IR3555 without doublers” -Elmor


----------



## asdkj1740

https://www.expreview.com/66048-all.html
galax z390 gamer


----------



## ActionExpress

Quick question for all you OC pros. 
I would like to upgrade my i5 8400 to a i7 9700k to help with some minimum frame rates at 1440p/165hz. 
Right now I am using a Gigabyte Aorus Gaming 5 z370. Is it unrealistic to think that this board can drive the 9700k at 5.0ghz? 
Would I lose performance from VRM throttling? I use air cooling in my rig and would have a fan blowing directly on the VRMs.

Thanks in advance.


----------



## wingman99

ActionExpress said:


> Quick question for all you OC pros.
> I would like to upgrade my i5 8400 to a i7 9700k to help with some minimum frame rates at 1440p/165hz.
> Right now I am using a Gigabyte Aorus Gaming 5 z370. Is it unrealistic to think that this board can drive the 9700k at 5.0ghz?
> Would I lose performance from VRM throttling? I use air cooling in my rig and would have a fan blowing directly on the VRMs.
> 
> Thanks in advance.


It should work fine on the 9700k at 5.0GHz. First give it a try to see if it will throttle, then use a fan if it does.


----------



## jaytrinitron

Hey guys,

I apologize if this has already been mentioned but I cannot find it. So I have an Asus z370 ROG Maximus X Formula. I am wondering whether the VRM solution on this board is sufficient for a very high OC on the 9900k (or possibly 9900kf, depending on when those drop) in a custom loop. Is this board capable of pushing the 9900k to the max with some headroom?

Also, does the z370 formula have any issues with Vdroop, VRM cooling, or any other overclocking issues I should know of, for a 9900k or 8700k?

Thanks.


----------



## AlphaC

There's 2 variants of the Z370 Formula but if it's under water there really ought to be no issue running an i9.


----------



## jaytrinitron

AlphaC said:


> There's 2 variants of the Z370 Formula but if it's under water there really ought to be no issue running an i9.


What 2 variants, I have only ever heard of one? Is it location based? I bought mine in the States, if that helps.


----------



## AlphaC

There's a Vishay zf906 version ( see https://www.kitguru.net/components/...s-rog-maximus-x-formula-motherboard-review/3/ , https://3dnews.ru/967502 , https://www.hardwareluxx.de/index.p...st-maximale-ausstattung-mit-oled-display.html) and an Infineon version with BSG0812ND (https://www.hkepc.com/15977/EKWB水冷OLED顯示_ASUS_ROG_Maximus_X_FORMULA主機板)


----------



## jaytrinitron

AlphaC said:


> There's a Vishay zf906 version ( see https://www.kitguru.net/components/...s-rog-maximus-x-formula-motherboard-review/3/ , https://3dnews.ru/967502 , https://www.hardwareluxx.de/index.p...st-maximale-ausstattung-mit-oled-display.html) and an Infineon version with BSG0812ND (https://www.hkepc.com/15977/EKWB水冷OLED顯示_ASUS_ROG_Maximus_X_FORMULA主機板)


Thanks for the info. Which one is better, and is there any sure way to figure out what version you have?


----------



## SpeedyIV

So now there are 2 versions of the MX Formula.

I know there are 2 versions of the Max X Hero wifi. The original used an ASP1400BT PWM controller and a parallel 4 x 2 BSG0812ND FET arrangement. Later boards had a ASP1405I PWM controller, IR3599 doublers and ZF906 FETs. Some boards have Rev1.01 stenciled on them, but I have read conflicting statements about whether the presence of the Rev1.01 stencil directly relates to which VRM implementation is present. Maybe Rev 1.01 indicates some other unknown difference. The VRM change was due to a parts shortage and presumably, they went back to the original (inferior) design when they could. Now I read that there are 2 versions of the MX Formula. 

It really bugs me that Asus does this, and does not clearly document and reveal the variants. You can research a board, read reviews, watch tear downs, sift through long threads about every component and detail of the VRM, then finally make your decision, only to discover that the board you bought has major differences in critical components. My X Hero wifi would not report VRM temp, yet some others clearly would, and I could not figure out why. Finally, the author of HWINFO informed me that there were 2 versions, and that mine did not report VRM temp. I never saw an acknowledgement from Asus until a full year later, well after Z370 was yesterday's news.

I wonder - is this a common occurrence for motherboard manufacturers to do – change fairly “major” components like the entire VRM circuitry on a specific model of board, mid-stream, with no notice, documentation, update of published specifications, or even acknowledgment? If they do, where’s the line? Changing entire VRM? (guess not) Changing trace topology? Rearranging PCIE lanes?


----------



## jaytrinitron

jaytrinitron said:


> Thanks for the info. Which one is better, and is there any sure way to figure out what version you have?


So I have now figured out you can find out through hardware info, but my computer is currently taken apart so can't do that rn. I could also do it through disassembly but I'd rather not. However, I'm pretty sure the Infineon version is better since that's the one that matches the Maximus X Apex. Fingers crossed I got that one, I'll have to find out.


----------



## gebyz

jaytrinitron said:


> Hey guys,
> I apologize if this has already been mentioned but I cannot find it. So I have an Asus z370 ROG Maximus X Formula. I am wondering whether the VRM solution on this board is sufficient for a very high OC on the 9900k (or possibly 9900kf, depending on when those drop) in a custom loop. Is this board capable of pushing the 9900k to the max with some headroom?
> 
> Also, does the z370 formula have any issues with Vdroop, VRM cooling, or any other overclocking issues I should know of, for a 9900k or 8700k?
> 
> Thanks.



I just ordered my 9900K and it should be here on Wednesday. I have a custom loop as well. I haven't found any concrete info with people using the built in VRM block. I'll report temps and clocks after Wednesday.


----------



## Toqi

i have Asrock z370 gaming k6 + delid 8700k 5.2ghz 1.390v with 5 heatpipe air cooler easy overclock but i can't see more ghz really wants too much voltage

worth replaced Evga z370 classified k? or i think to buy Asus z390 Apex and 1.5x more expensive.


----------



## tostitobandito

gebyz said:


> I just ordered my 9900K and it should be here on Wednesday. I have a custom loop as well. I haven't found any concrete info with people using the built in VRM block. I'll report temps and clocks after Wednesday.


My Hero XI has the same VRM minus the waterblock and under sustained Prime95 load it might eventually hit 60C but that's about it (VRM only hits 40-45C max while gaming for multiple hours). That's at 5.1 GHz and 1.3v. I imagine the waterblock should let you push to 1.4v and beyond (if you can cool the CPU) without the VRM having any thermal issues at all. If you have suitable airflow as I do the VRM is fine on air well beyond where most people would be able to cool their CPU with non-extreme methods.


----------



## lb_felipe

@AlphaC,

JFYI, Puget has changed the Serenity's motherboard from Z390 AORUS PRO WIFI to Z390 DESIGNARE. Any guess why?

https://www.pugetsystems.com/nav/serenity/Professional/customize.php


----------



## AlphaC

lb_felipe said:


> @*AlphaC* ,
> 
> JFYI, Puget has changed the Serenity's motherboard from Z390 AORUS PRO WIFI to Z390 DESIGNARE. Any guess why?
> 
> https://www.pugetsystems.com/nav/serenity/Professional/customize.php


 It fits their userbase more due to thunderbolt + Displayport in.


----------



## Falkentyne

AlphaC said:


> It fits their userbase more due to thunderbolt + Displayport in.


Except the Thunderbolt port does not work with TB 1+2 devices and Gigabyte is ignoring bug reports on this.
Intel designed this to be backward compatible.
@GBT-MatthewH can you please look into this?
http://forum.gigabyte.us/thread/6193/thunderbolt-bios-fix-z390-designare

http://forum.gigabyte.us/thread/5889/designare-apple-thunderbolt-display-problem?page=2


----------



## ezveedub

Falkentyne said:


> Except the Thunderbolt port does not work with TB 1+2 devices and Gigabyte is ignoring bug reports on this.
> 
> Intel designed this to be backward compatible.
> 
> 
> @GBT-MatthewH can you please look into this?
> 
> http://forum.gigabyte.us/thread/6193/thunderbolt-bios-fix-z390-designare
> 
> 
> 
> http://forum.gigabyte.us/thread/5889/designare-apple-thunderbolt-display-problem?page=2




That Gigabyte forum is dead for support...And they need mods to run it. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## gebyz

tostitobandito said:


> My Hero XI has the same VRM minus the waterblock and under sustained Prime95 load it might eventually hit 60C but that's about it (VRM only hits 40-45C max while gaming for multiple hours). That's at 5.1 GHz and 1.3v. I imagine the waterblock should let you push to 1.4v and beyond (if you can cool the CPU) without the VRM having any thermal issues at all. If you have suitable airflow as I do the VRM is fine on air well beyond where most people would be able to cool their CPU with non-extreme methods.


Sorry I forgot to add a quote in my last post. I have a M10F. 

Sent from my SM-N960W using Tapatalk


----------



## jaytrinitron

Hey, another question: Does HWInfo actually tell you what VRM Mosfets you have, or is looking under the VRM heatsink the only way to know for sure?


----------



## wingman99

jaytrinitron said:


> Hey, another question: Does HWInfo actually tell you what VRM Mosfets you have, or is looking under the VRM heatsink the only way to know for sure?


Looking at this link could help. https://www.hardwareluxx.de/community/f12/lga-1151-mainboard-vrm-liste-1175784.html#z370


----------



## KedarWolf

jaytrinitron said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> I apologize if this has already been mentioned but I cannot find it. So I have an Asus z370 ROG Maximus X Formula. I am wondering whether the VRM solution on this board is sufficient for a very high OC on the 9900k (or possibly 9900kf, depending on when those drop) in a custom loop. Is this board capable of pushing the 9900k to the max with some headroom?
> 
> Also, does the z370 formula have any issues with Vdroop, VRM cooling, or any other overclocking issues I should know of, for a 9900k or 8700k?
> 
> Thanks.


My Maximus X Formula will only do 5 GHZ CPU and 4000MHZ memory 1344 FFT's prime 95 and 17-17-17-40 2T HCI Memtest stable and I need 1.375v on the CPU. 

With the same CPU I'm at 5.1 GHZ CPU and 4133 MHZ stress test stable on my Z390 Aorus Xtreme. I'm at 1.324v VROUT on the CPU while stress testing. 

Take it for what you will. 

However, WITHOUT water the VRM's on the Formula go under 65C while stress testing.


----------



## jaytrinitron

KedarWolf said:


> My Maximus X Formula will only do 5 GHZ CPU and 4000MHZ memory 1344 FFT's prime 95 and 17-17-17-40 2T HCI Memtest stable and I need 1.375v on the CPU.
> 
> With the same CPU I'm at 5.1 GHZ CPU and 4133 MHZ stress test stable on my Z390 Aorus Xtreme. I'm at 1.324v VROUT on the CPU while stress testing.
> 
> Take it for what you will.
> 
> However, WITHOUT water the VRM's on the Formula go under 65C while stress testing.



So my memory will only be at 3200 mhz but with a cas latency of 15, I have no interest in overclocking memory since it doesn't really help with games AFAIK or my professional applications.

My VRMs will be under water, so do you think it will be hard to drive the 9900k very high if I am not raising the memory speed as much and keep my VRMs cool?

And do you know which VRM MOSFET you have?


----------



## jaytrinitron

wingman99 said:


> Looking at this link could help. https://www.hardwareluxx.de/community/f12/lga-1151-mainboard-vrm-liste-1175784.html#z370


I appreciate the link but there are actually 2 different VRMs on the M10F, and I am trying to figure out which one I have (short of taking off the heatsink and seeing for myself, which I may end up doing if there isn't an easier way).


----------



## GAN77

jaytrinitron said:


> I appreciate the link but there are actually 2 different VRMs on the M10F, and I am trying to figure out which one I have (short of taking off the heatsink and seeing for myself, which I may end up doing if there isn't an easier way).


Reverse side of the motherboard


----------



## gebyz

So after installing my 9900K, I ran some quick tasks

5.0 GHz
-3 AVX
1.325v w/ LLC 6 - Hits 1.36v under load

Ambient: 23 degrees 
Coolant: 28 degrees

Gaming BFV 2 hours:
VRM: 56 degrees
AVG temp between cores: 61 degrees

Prime95 26.6 Small FFT - 20 mins.
VRM: 68 degrees
AVG temp: 2 Cores hit 90 degrees and the other 6 average around 84 degrees


----------



## Robostyle

KedarWolf said:


> My Maximus X Formula will only do 5 GHZ CPU and 4000MHZ memory 1344 FFT's prime 95 and 17-17-17-40 2T HCI Memtest stable and I need 1.375v on the CPU.
> 
> With the same CPU I'm at 5.1 GHZ CPU and 4133 MHZ stress test stable on my Z390 Aorus Xtreme. I'm at 1.324v VROUT on the CPU while stress testing.
> 
> Take it for what you will.
> 
> However, WITHOUT water the VRM's on the Formula go under 65C while stress testing.


Tried pushing cpu to 5.1 on formula, after figuring out its limits?


----------



## jaytrinitron

GAN77 said:


> Reverse side of the motherboard


Thanks, I appreciate that. This is likely a stupid question but bear with me, I'm new to this: which of the two MOSFET versions are in that image, and how would I tell the difference between the two MOSFET versions from the back? Are they marked? I'm not home rn so I can't look at the mobo, but I will try when I get back.


----------



## GAN77

jaytrinitron said:


> Thanks, I appreciate that. This is likely a stupid question but bear with me, I'm new to this: which of the two MOSFET versions are in that image, and how would I tell the difference between the two MOSFET versions from the back? Are they marked? I'm not home rn so I can't look at the mobo, but I will try when I get back.


In the photo the best BPM, is the same CODE X.

My photo report CODE X

https://forums.overclockers.ru/viewtopic.php?p=15436125#p15436125


----------



## GBT-MatthewH

Falkentyne said:


> Except the Thunderbolt port does not work with TB 1+2 devices and Gigabyte is ignoring bug reports on this.
> Intel designed this to be backward compatible.
> 
> @GBT-MatthewH can you please look into this?
> http://forum.gigabyte.us/thread/6193/thunderbolt-bios-fix-z390-designare
> 
> http://forum.gigabyte.us/thread/5889/designare-apple-thunderbolt-display-problem?page=2


We are looking into it. AFAIK the problem is limited to Apple (tb2) displays. It has to do with the way legacy mode is handled/enabled. They are testing some new firmware as we speak. If I get something I can share I'll let you know.


----------



## Falkentyne

GBT-MatthewH said:


> We are looking into it. AFAIK the problem is limited to Apple (tb2) displays. It has to do with the way legacy mode is handled/enabled. They are testing some new firmware as we speak. If I get something I can share I'll let you know.


Thank you for your help, MatthewH! And Happy Lunar New Year !


----------



## jaytrinitron

GAN77 said:


> In the photo the best BPM, is the same CODE X.
> 
> My photo report CODE X
> 
> https://forums.overclockers.ru/viewtopic.php?p=15436125#p15436125


Thanks. What's a BPM exactly? And from what I can tell from those photos, the back just has the drivers - Infineon IR3535Ms - the same on both versions. Based on your photos and other evidence, to view the MOSFETs I need to take the heatsink off apparently, which I am trying to avoid.


----------



## scracy

gebyz said:


> So after installing my 9900K, I ran some quick tasks
> 
> 5.0 GHz
> -3 AVX
> 1.325v w/ LLC 6 - Hits 1.36v under load
> 
> Ambient: 23 degrees
> Coolant: 28 degrees
> 
> Gaming BFV 2 hours:
> VRM: 56 degrees
> AVG temp between cores: 61 degrees
> 
> Prime95 26.6 Small FFT - 20 mins.
> VRM: 68 degrees
> AVG temp: 2 Cores hit 90 degrees and the other 6 average around 84 degrees


Just curious how are you measuring VRM temperatures?


----------



## jaytrinitron

gebyz said:


> So after installing my 9900K, I ran some quick tasks
> 
> 5.0 GHz
> -3 AVX
> 1.325v w/ LLC 6 - Hits 1.36v under load
> 
> Ambient: 23 degrees
> Coolant: 28 degrees
> 
> Gaming BFV 2 hours:
> VRM: 56 degrees
> AVG temp between cores: 61 degrees
> 
> Prime95 26.6 Small FFT - 20 mins.
> VRM: 68 degrees
> AVG temp: 2 Cores hit 90 degrees and the other 6 average around 84 degrees


Nice, seems pretty good for 5.0... are your VRMs under water, and do you know what MOSFETs you have?


----------



## gebyz

jaytrinitron said:


> Nice, seems pretty good for 5.0... are your VRMs under water, and do you know what MOSFETs you have?


Underwater no idea about MOSFETS but I did buy mine on release day. 

Sent from my SM-N960W using Tapatalk


----------



## gebyz

scracy said:


> Just curious how are you measuring VRM temperatures?


Sensor off of HWINFO. 

Not sure how accurate it is though. 

Sent from my SM-N960W using Tapatalk


----------



## scracy

gebyz said:


> Sensor off of HWINFO.
> 
> Not sure how accurate it is though.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N960W using Tapatalk


Thats interesting I have the same board and I was able to monitor VRM temperatures with an older UEFI (1003) however since upgrading to UEFI 1801 I can no longer do so with HWInfo or any other application. UEFI 1801 is required in order to run a 9900K on a Maximus X Formula
so Im not sure how yours works but mine does not unless your running a different UEFI?


----------



## KedarWolf

scracy said:


> Thats interesting I have the same board and I was able to monitor VRM temperatures with an older UEFI (1003) however since upgrading to UEFI 1801 I can no longer do so with HWInfo or any other application. UEFI 1801 is required in order to run a 9900K on a Maximus X Formula
> so Im not sure how yours works but mine does not unless your running a different UEFI?


my Maximus X Formula has VRM temps in HWInfo on the 1801 BIOS.

You sure when you start it Sensors Only you enable the ASUS EC? If you can't, you need to reset preferences in Settings in the start-up screen.


----------



## scracy

KedarWolf said:


> my Maximus X Formula has VRM temps in HWInfo on the 1801 BIOS.
> 
> You sure when you start it Sensors Only you enable the ASUS EC? If you can't, you need to reset preferences in Settings in the start-up screen.


Thanks for the heads up, working now but not before not sure why.


----------



## Robostyle

gebyz said:


> So after installing my 9900K, I ran some quick tasks
> 
> 5.0 GHz
> -3 AVX
> 1.325v w/ LLC 6 - Hits 1.36v under load
> 
> Ambient: 23 degrees
> Coolant: 28 degrees
> 
> Gaming BFV 2 hours:
> VRM: 56 degrees
> AVG temp between cores: 61 degrees
> 
> Prime95 26.6 Small FFT - 20 mins.
> VRM: 68 degrees
> AVG temp: 2 Cores hit 90 degrees and the other 6 average around 84 degrees


The thing is.......you were testing 4.7 GHz system.  

BFI and BFV constantly use AVX, thus making cpu throttle to avx clocks all the time - rarely, 1 or 2, maximum 3 cores reach 5ghz for 2-3 seconds, then back again to 4.7.


----------



## jaytrinitron

scracy said:


> Thats interesting I have the same board and I was able to monitor VRM temperatures with an older UEFI (1003) however since upgrading to UEFI 1801 I can no longer do so with HWInfo or any other application. UEFI 1801 is required in order to run a 9900K on a Maximus X Formula
> so Im not sure how yours works but mine does not unless your running a different UEFI?


I̵ ̵t̵h̵i̵n̵k̵ ̵I̵ ̵h̵a̵v̵e̵ ̵s̵e̵e̵n̵ ̵t̵h̵i̵s̵ ̵i̵s̵s̵u̵e̵ ̵o̵n̵ ̵o̵t̵h̵e̵r̵ ̵M̵a̵x̵i̵m̵u̵s̵ ̵X̵ ̵b̵o̵a̵r̵d̵s̵ ̵(̵n̵a̵m̵e̵l̵y̵ ̵t̵h̵e̵ ̵H̵e̵r̵o̵)̵ ̵d̵e̵p̵e̵n̵d̵i̵n̵g̵ ̵o̵n̵ ̵w̵h̵a̵t̵ ̵V̵R̵M̵ ̵M̵O̵S̵F̵E̵T̵s̵ ̵y̵o̵u̵ ̵h̵a̵v̵e̵.̵ ̵T̵h̵e̵ ̵I̵n̵f̵i̵n̵e̵o̵n̵ ̵d̵o̵ ̵h̵a̵v̵e̵ ̵m̵o̵n̵i̵t̵o̵r̵i̵n̵g̵ ̵a̵n̵d̵ ̵t̵h̵e̵ ̵V̵i̵s̵h̵a̵y̵ ̵Z̵F̵9̵0̵6̵ ̵o̵n̵e̵s̵ ̵d̵o̵ ̵n̵o̵t̵ ̵h̵a̵v̵e̵ ̵i̵t̵ ̵I̵ ̵t̵h̵i̵n̵k̵,̵ ̵p̵o̵s̵s̵i̵b̵l̵y̵ ̵d̵e̵p̵e̵n̵d̵i̵n̵g̵ ̵o̵n̵ ̵w̵h̵a̵t̵ ̵B̵I̵O̵S̵ ̵y̵o̵u̵ ̵h̵a̵v̵e̵.̵

Nevermind, just read the new posts. My bad.


----------



## Robostyle

Vishay DOES have the VRM sens


----------



## jaytrinitron

Robostyle said:


> Vishay DOES have the VRM sens


I see, thanks. But then is it the Infineon that doesn't or do they both have it?


----------



## Robostyle

That's pure mystery only Asus knows answer for. 
At least, I think so - they change their mb's vrm so frequently no wonder if they forgot it too.


----------



## encrypted11

There's a new VRM temperature readout titled "VR VCC Temperature" that works (almost) with all boards out there


----------



## BAF2782

The Z390 Aorus Pro has doubled phases while the Z390 Aorus Pro WiFi does not. The Boards look identical, even the chokes but for some reason the Aorus Pro WiFi does not use doublers.


----------



## BAF2782

The Pro uses doublers on it's phases and the Pro WiFi does not.


----------



## Alexandrus

Stop posting such information, it's not only false, but also silly as heck from any electronic or even economic point of view.


----------



## AlphaC

https://chimolog.co/bto-mb-z390-extreme4-review/


> When Blender is running at 5 GHz, measure the heat (surface temperature) of the VRM phase with a thermographic camera. The heat sink side also has air cooling of the air cooling cooler, it seems to be cold well.
> 
> The Z370 Extreme 4's phase is a masterpiece performance compared to it, as the fever was so terrible that the Z370 motherboard I used before broke it with enough room to surpass 100 ℃.
> 
> 
> ...
> Measuring from the back side without the heat sink, the left side of the CPU was around 75 ° C, and the position just above the CPU was around 70 ° C. As it is within the fever without problems at all, overclocking at about 5 GHz is also a problem level.


One of the first thermal reviews of the Extreme4 probably


----------



## xermalk

The vrms of my Asus Prime z370-a Runs hot as all hell with a waterblock on the cpu. Anything above 1.31 will cause them to go into thermal protection.

Is there any good ways of sorting that out, short of a monoblock (delidded so questionable if it will fit) or two of those universal vrm waterblocks?


----------



## asdkj1740

Lots of complaints about msi ace and godlike require almost 0.1v more to stabilise cpu overclocking, Toppc lin on his new YouTube video shows how softwares like cpuz wrongly report vcore voltage on Asus mobos like m11a.
There is no such so-called super low voltage advantage on Asus mobos over others.


----------



## Telstar

asdkj1740 said:


> Toppc lin on his new YouTube video shows how softwares like cpuz wrongly report vcore voltage on Asus mobos like m11a.


link?


----------



## AlphaC

Telstar said:


> link?


 https://www.youtube.com/user/Toppccbb/videos


It's basically a difference in measuring point, which has been stated multiple times in this thread.


-----
xermalk , just ebay your Z370-A to someone planning to use a locked CPU or for gaming (i.e. comparatively low load). As a stopgap you could probably put a 2000+RPM fan over it but the heatsink isn't amazing either. No point in using that board with an 9th gen i9 or i7 unless it's a light load and you can't afford to upgrade to something better (even Asus' Z390-A is far better due to using 8x powerstages instead of 8x high + low side as on Z370-A).


----


Also Aorus Master is a _far_ better board than Taichi (not surprisingly) per livedoor jp reviewer:
Titled: *"GIGABYTE Z390 AORUS MASTER. Core i9 VRM power supply can be handled with passive air cooling even with 5 GHz over all cores of i9 9900 K"*

http://blog.livedoor.jp/wisteriear/archives/1072590581.html


> First of all, when incorporating Core i9 9900K in GIGABYTE Z390 AORUS MASTER, we measured the VRM power supply temperature after loading with default setting.
> By default setting of GIGABYTE Z390 AORUS MASTER, power limitation of TDP 95 W is not applied to Core i 9 9900 K and it operates at all cores 4.7 GHz, but even in the environment of simple water-cooled CPU cooler in which wind does not directly hit the VRM power supply , VRM power supply temperature fits around 50 degrees.
> 
> 
> 
> Next, check the VRM power supply temperature during the load test when Core i 9 9900 K is OC with the above BIOS setting.By the way, if you coat Core i 9 9900 K to 5.1 GHz for all cores in the "GIGABYTE Z390 AORUS MASTER" environment and OC to memory to 3800 MHz, the power consumption of the entire system (almost CPU at minus 20 to 30 W) reaches 250 W.
> 
> In the environment of a simple water-cooled CPU cooler that does not hit the wind directly around the VRM power source, the Core i9 9900 K was OC at the whole core 5.1 GHz and the VRM power supply temperature was checked thermographically. As a result, the temperature around the VRM power supply of the GIGABYTE Z390 AORUS MASTER It fell within 60 degrees at the maximum.When applying the same load using Core i 9 9900 K, active cooling by using a spot cooler was recommended for management personally because the VRM power supply temperature reached around 90 degrees on the other high-end Z390 motherboard, but *" GIGABYTE Z390 AORUS MASTER "it is very excellent result that VRM power supply can respond with passive air cooling even if Core i 9 9900 K is OC over 5 GHz.*​


http://blog.livedoor.jp/wisteriear/archives/1073297322.html


> ASRock Z390 Taichi Ultimate's default setting does not limit TDP 95 W power limit to Core i 9 9900 K and operates at all cores 4.7 GHz, but even in a simple water-cooled CPU cooler environment where wind does not directly hit the VRM power supply , VRM power supply temperature falls within 70 to 80 degrees. Next, check the VRM power supply temperature during the load test when Core i 9 9900 K is OC with the above BIOS setting.
> 
> By the way, if you coat Core i 9 9900 K to 5.1 GHz for all cores in OC Rock Z 390 Taichi Ultimate and OC to memory at 4000 MHz, the power consumption of the whole system (almost CPU at minus 20 to 30 W) reaches 250 W.
> 
> In the environment of a simple water-cooled CPU cooler that does not hit the wind directly around the VRM power source, when we covered Core i 9 9900 K to the whole core 5.1 GHz and checked the VRM power supply temperature with the thermography, the temperature around the VRM power supply of ASRock Z 390 Taichi Ultimate It reached the latter half of 90 degrees at the maximum. With the same settings as above, this time we used a 120 mm square cooling fan as a spot cooler. Spot cooler fan rotation speed is fixed at 1200 RPM. In the passive air-cooled condition without the spot cooler, the VRM power supply temperature reached the latter half of 90 degrees, but if it was properly cooled using the spot cooler, the VRM power supply temperature could be reduced to around 70 degrees. If you carefully OC the Core i9 9900K it would be better to use the spot cooler.​


This is more or less confirmed with the hardwareluxx testing of the Phantom Gaming 9 (albeit using i7-8700k as the CPU):
https://www.hardwareluxx.de/index.p...est-zwischen-taichi-und-ultimate.html?start=5


-----


Phantom ITX review is up on overclockers.ua as well
https://www.overclockers.ua/motherboard/asrock-z390-phantom-gaming-itx-ac/all/


----------



## asdkj1740

https://youtu.be/4x3A6V2kSiU
Asus response


----------



## asdkj1740

So different measure points of voltage should not be directly compared. Which one is more accurate and realistic and meaningful is worth to discuss. However there are so many ppl intended to mix these two sources of voltage and attack other mobos.


----------



## Nizzen

asdkj1740 said:


> https://youtu.be/4x3A6V2kSiU
> Asus response



Thx for the video


----------



## asdkj1740

https://youtu.be/uTnymvz7YEM


----------



## eric98k

@AlphaC: efficiency-wise top tier, at least better than M11G & M11E

Buildzoid: EVGA Z390 Dark VRM Analysis





PWM(Vcc+Vccsa): ISL69138 (6+1)
Vcc: 12x ISL99227B (60A) SPS thermally enhanced, 6x ISL6617 doublers with current balancing
Vccsa: ISL99140 40A DrMOS

PWM(Vccgt+Vccio): ISL69133 (2+1)
Vccgt: 2x ISL99227B (60A) SPS thermally enhanced
Vccio: ISL99140 40A DrMOS

PWM(Vddr): ISL69133 (1+0)
Vddr: 1x ISL99227B (60A) SPS thermally enhanced

Efficiency (VRM power loss at 1.35V, 500kHz per stage, 5Vdrv):
- Iout=100A, 10W
- Iout=200A, 18W
- Iout=300A, 30W
- Iout=400A, 47W
- Iout=500A, 66W

EVGA Z390 Dark's Impressive Layout & OC Feature Review


----------



## AlphaC

I can't take the ASUS video as seriously, he's using some $30-40 CIE 8007 multimeter when he is working at R&D. At least MSI is using a FLUKE of appropriate caliber.


There's supposedly 0.5% DC Volt accuracy level on the CIE 8007 but it's not True RMS. Toppc was using a ~$300 Fluke 233 , True RMS with accuracy 0.25%.



It's a _very_ weak rebuttal , since MSI is basically saying that the ASUS measurement is a different way of measuring such that there isn't a 100mV superiority.


@ eric98k , I revised the chart https://www.overclock.net/forum/6-i...0-vrm-discussion-thread-216.html#post27657582


----------



## Telstar

AlphaC said:


> MSI is basically saying that the ASUS measurement is a different way of measuring such that there isn't a 100mV superiority.


And this is basically the truth, I believe.



> @ eric98k , I revised the chart https://www.overclock.net/forum/6-i...0-vrm-discussion-thread-216.html#post27657582


Great! I go check it too.


----------



## wingman99

How good is the VRM on the ASRock Z390 Extreme4?


----------



## AlphaC

wingman99 said:


> How good is the VRM on the ASRock Z390 Extreme4?


 It's _alright_ but the price difference to the other boards with powerstages and/or heatpipe , more USB ports, and debug features is low enough that there's usually few compelling reasons to buy it. There was a time it was selling for ~$130 and that's about the only time it's worth it over the ~$180 Aorus Pro / Aorus Elite ($10 to $15 difference means Aorus Pro is a better bet), Phantom Gaming 6 (it has a heatpipe and the debug features), and STRIX Z390-F (often closer to $200) / Z390-A. The Asrock Taichi has been ~$180-200 at times and that is something worth it as it uses an IR35201 PWM with doublers and TI NexFETs. As far as non-overclocking goes, I'd lump the MSI Edge ATX board in with those midrange boards.

The UP9521P PWM is also used on H370 Asrock boards as well as cheaper MSI boards so I don't have utmost confidence in its capabilities. The Sinopower powerblock variant is probably more efficient in terms of RDS(on) in V_GS=5V setting than Fairchild variant where the RDS(on) difference becomes more pronounced. The issue is the Sinopower stuff doesn't have a large switch time advantage , the datasheet actually uses V_GS=10V and V_GS=4.5V isn't included. The gate charge Q_G is also comparable to the discrete high+low side fet implementations on the lower end Asus, Gigabyte, and MSI boards and that is a factor in switching loss.

Steven had issues with it: https://www.tweaktown.com/reviews/8863/asrock-z390-extreme4-intel-motherboard-review/index3.html

The only site with UP9521 data : https://www.wpgholdings.com/aitg/procurement_detail/zhtw/16441 , and it's not UP9521P

UP1965 driver supposedly has shoot through protection & Tri-state : https://www.upi-semi.com/en-article-upi-681-2065#


Some other reviews: https://thinkcomputers.org/asrock-z390-extreme4-motherboard-review/5/
https://www.vortez.net/articles_pages/asrock_z390_extreme4_review,6.html
https://www.ocinside.de/test/mainboard_asrock_z390_extreme4_d/4/
https://www.clubedohardware.com.br/...ca-mãe-asrock-z390-extreme4-r36893/?nbcpage=5

Due to the VRM heatsink fin area , the lack of heatpipe is a limiting factor if you intend to use it for anything intensive. 

There's boards that outright don't make sense such as the $180 STRIX Z390-H (i.e. a cheap TUF board with ROG sticker , better audio, and USB ports) or $210 MSI Pro Carbon but the Extreme4 is a midrange board that essentially is a downgrade (in PWM) of the Z370 version in exchange for minor inconsequential IO changes as well as a bigger VRM heatsink. The problem is essentially the MSRP of $180ish. If it had launched in place of the Phantom Gaming SLI (which is not a decent board for i9s) it would have been great as the options at that price point are basically Gigabyte's non Aorus boards, MSI Tomahawk, ASUS TUF. Its current $150 USD pricing is a fair price I think especially when the Phantom SLI is selling for that price along with some TUF boards and MSI Tomahawk.

If there's ever a z390 Extreme4 version 1.1 I would say Asrock needs to add back debug features (just the debug LED is enough as a start) , drop the outdated VGA display output ports, and make sure they iron out their later BIOS versions. I'm not sure a USB3.1 gen 2 front panel header is warranted yet given how high the product stack that is on ASUS/MSI/ Gigabyte board lineups and how few cases have it. In its current iteration if you want an Asrock Z390 board the lowest I would go is Phantom Gaming 6 to avoid guesswork. The alternative is dropping 35 Euro on the Caseking debug LED adapter sold by der8auer that isn't even available anymore: https://www.caseking.de/der8auer-port80-debug-anzeige-fsd8-025.html

ASUS has over 50% market share in Asia (per digitimes) so essentially all other manufacturers need to provide compelling board choices.


----------



## wingman99

AlphaC said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> It's _alright_ but the price difference to the other boards with powerstages and/or heatpipe , more USB ports, and debug features is low enough that there's usually few compelling reasons to buy it. There was a time it was selling for ~$130 and that's about the only time it's worth it over the ~$180 Aorus Pro / Aorus Elite ($10 to $15 difference means Aorus Pro is a better bet), Phantom Gaming 6 (it has a heatpipe and the debug features), and STRIX Z390-F (often closer to $200) / Z390-A. The Asrock Taichi has been ~$180-200 at times and that is something worth it as it uses an IR35201 PWM with doublers and TI NexFETs. As far as non-overclocking goes, I'd lump the MSI Edge ATX board in with those midrange boards.
> 
> The UP9521P PWM is also used on H370 Asrock boards as well as cheaper MSI boards so I don't have utmost confidence in its capabilities. The Sinopower powerblock variant is probably more efficient in terms of RDS(on) in V_GS=5V setting than Fairchild variant where the RDS(on) difference becomes more pronounced. The issue is the Sinopower stuff doesn't have a large switch time advantage , the datasheet actually uses V_GS=10V and V_GS=4.5V isn't included. The gate charge Q_G is also comparable to the discrete high+low side fet implementations on the lower end Asus, Gigabyte, and MSI boards and that is a factor in switching loss.
> 
> Steven had issues with it: https://www.tweaktown.com/reviews/8863/asrock-z390-extreme4-intel-motherboard-review/index3.html
> 
> The only site with UP9521 data : https://www.wpgholdings.com/aitg/procurement_detail/zhtw/16441 , and it's not UP9521P
> 
> UP1965 driver supposedly has shoot through protection & Tri-state : https://www.upi-semi.com/en-article-upi-681-2065#
> 
> 
> Some other reviews: https://thinkcomputers.org/asrock-z390-extreme4-motherboard-review/5/
> https://www.vortez.net/articles_pages/asrock_z390_extreme4_review,6.html
> https://www.ocinside.de/test/mainboard_asrock_z390_extreme4_d/4/
> https://www.clubedohardware.com.br/...ca-mãe-asrock-z390-extreme4-r36893/?nbcpage=5
> 
> Due to the VRM heatsink fin area , the lack of heatpipe is a limiting factor if you intend to use it for anything intensive.
> 
> There's boards that outright don't make sense such as the $180 STRIX Z390-H (i.e. a cheap TUF board with ROG sticker , better audio, and USB ports) or $210 MSI Pro Carbon but the Extreme4 is a midrange board that essentially is a downgrade (in PWM) of the Z370 version in exchange for minor inconsequential IO changes as well as a bigger VRM heatsink. The problem is essentially the MSRP of $180ish. If it had launched in place of the Phantom Gaming SLI (which is not a decent board for i9s) it would have been great as the options at that price point are basically Gigabyte's non Aorus boards, MSI Tomahawk, ASUS TUF. Its current $150 USD pricing is a fair price I think especially when the Phantom SLI is selling for that price along with some TUF boards and MSI Tomahawk.
> 
> If there's ever a z390 Extreme4 version 1.1 I would say Asrock needs to add back debug features (just the debug LED is enough as a start) , drop the outdated VGA display output ports, and make sure they iron out their later BIOS versions. I'm not sure a USB3.1 gen 2 front panel header is warranted yet given how high the product stack that is on ASUS/MSI/ Gigabyte board lineups and how few cases have it. In its current iteration if you want an Asrock Z390 board the lowest I would go is Phantom Gaming 6 to avoid guesswork. The alternative is dropping 35 Euro on the Caseking debug LED adapter sold by der8auer that isn't even available anymore: https://www.caseking.de/der8auer-port80-debug-anzeige-fsd8-025.html
> 
> ASUS has over 50% market share in Asia (per digitimes) so essentially all other manufacturers need to provide compelling board choices.



Thanks for all the information.


----------



## mojolou

MSI has updated its VRM information of Z390 Godlike and ACE:

Z390 Godlike
https://www.msi.com/Motherboard/meg-z390-godlike#cpu









Z390 ACE
https://www.msi.com/Motherboard/meg-z390-ace#cpu


----------



## FedeX299I57640X

mojolou said:


> MSI has updated its VRM information of Z390 Godlike and ACE:
> 
> 
> 
> Z390 Godlike
> 
> https://www.msi.com/Motherboard/meg-z390-godlike#cpu
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Z390 ACE
> 
> https://www.msi.com/Motherboard/meg-z390-ace#cpu


If the godlike has one displayport or one hdmi port i have buy the godlike but when i have see that the gigabyte aorus z390 xtreme was love at first sight


----------



## asdkj1740

just to be careful if you are going to buy those pretested cpus. ask the seller what mobo is used for the test and be aware of the voltages comparison between asus m11 series and other mobos.
m11 series mobo tends to have -0.08v "hidden offset". for example on cpuz, m11g 1.25v 9900k 5ghz=msi godlike ~1.33v 5ghz.


btw
toppc said pwm control ic from ir tends to be more difficult to tune like llc compared to taiwanese pwm ic. taiwanese pwm ic tends to have better support and customization to mobo vendors.
an interesting view. it may explains why asus has its own customized asp1405.


----------



## FedeX299I57640X

asdkj1740 said:


> just to be careful if you are going to buy those pretested cpus. ask the seller what mobo is used for the test and be aware of the voltages comparison between asus m11 series and other mobos.
> 
> m11 series mobo tends to have -0.08v "hidden offset". for example on cpuz, m11g 1.25v 9900k 5ghz=msi godlike ~1.33v 5ghz.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> btw
> 
> toppc said pwm control ic from ir tends to be more difficult to tune like llc compared to taiwanese pwm ic. taiwanese pwm ic tends to have better support and customization to mobo vendors.
> 
> an interesting view. it may explains why asus has its own customized asp1405.


I have buy the i9 9900k retail edition the last year


----------



## eric98k

Supermicro C9Z390-PGW reviews:
https://www.anandtech.com/show/13706/the-supermicro-c9z390-pgw-motherboard-review
https://www.tweaktown.com/reviews/8...pgw-intel-z390-motherboard-review/index3.html


----------



## asdkj1740

msi and asus show up at the same time lol


----------



## eric98k

Ppl got a short-term memory. The issue was covered by Elmor's post about the unique voltage reporting/measurements on ASUS Maximus XI-series: https://www.overclock.net/forum/27686004-post2664.html


----------



## eric98k

@AlphaC GBT C246-WU4 review:
http://www.coolpc.com.tw/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=255560

Supports 9th gen Core/Xeon-E incl. 9900K, 9700k

8+4-pin EPS connector
Heatsink: real fins + heatpipe
PWM(Vcc+Vccgt): ISL69138 (4+2)
Vcc: 8x (4C10N + 4C06N) in parallel
Vccgt: 2x (4C10N + 4C06N)
R45 inductors
5KY22 560μf 6.3V caps
Vddr: PWM RT8120, 2x 4C06N
External clock-gen: IDT 6V41630B


----------



## AlphaC

asdkj1740 said:


> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ThKQXYgz0is
> msi and asus show up at the same time lol



The Asus guy said he is "little little engineer" which probably means he isn't very high up in the R&D dept.


As far as I can tell he's basically saying that there's two ways of making of the VRM voltage sensing.


From the comments by Eric Chang: 



> Just a different measurement point, even the ROG engineers are invited out!
> I think this is an understanding and intellectual problem. Lin Dong never said who is good or who is bad. As a result, fans of other brands have to say cheating!
> Sit down and figure out the principles well, naturally nothing is gone!
> ~Lin Dong Happy New Year~



-----


I'm not sure who would buy the GBT C246-WU4 in the consumer space, it's really not great other than the heatsink and Debug LED/ power+reset+clear CMOs buttons. Definitely not made for overclocking.



Tweaktown covered the supermicro board previously:
https://www.tweaktown.com/reviews/8...pgw-intel-z390-motherboard-review/index7.html


TDA21232 , if anything like the TDA21231 DrMOs should be roughly 95% peak efficiency with V_out = 1.8V.


There's still only 6 of them however so the board should be considered by those who intend to use the PLX chip and 10Gbe.


WCCFtech puts it ahead of the STRIX Z390-E but warmer than Z390 Hero (8x 50A Powerstages ~91% efficient) , so it's around that level of effectiveness.



Some other reviews:
https://wccftech.com/review/supero-c9z390-pgw-gaming-motherboard-review/9/

https://www.techtesters.eu/supero-c9z390-pgw-review/


----------



## Martin778

AlphaC said:


> https://www.youtube.com/user/Toppccbb/videos
> 
> Also Aorus Master is a _far_ better board than Taichi (not surprisingly) per livedoor jp reviewer:
> Titled: *"GIGABYTE Z390 AORUS MASTER. Core i9 VRM power supply can be handled with passive air cooling even with 5 GHz over all cores of i9 9900 K"*
> 
> http://blog.livedoor.jp/wisteriear/archives/1072590581.html
> http://blog.livedoor.jp/wisteriear/archives/1073297322.html
> 
> This is more or less confirmed with the hardwareluxx testing of the Phantom Gaming 9 (albeit using i7-8700k as the CPU):
> https://www.hardwareluxx.de/index.p...est-zwischen-taichi-und-ultimate.html?start=5
> 
> 
> -----
> 
> 
> Phantom ITX review is up on overclockers.ua as well
> https://www.overclockers.ua/motherboard/asrock-z390-phantom-gaming-itx-ac/all/


Now show me good memory OC on the Aorus.  What they're showing in the review is extremely weak for such a high binned B-Die kit:
*Using G. Skill Trident Z Black F4-4400C19D-16GTZKK of the verification equipment memory in the environment of GIGABYTE Z390 AORUS MASTER (BIOS: f8e), memory frequency 3800 MHz memory timing: stable at 17-17-17-37-CR2 I could check the operation. *
So is 5.1GHz, nothing to write home about.

VRM is important but it's not the only thing you will need.
Otherwise the Taichi has bad VRM cooling arrangement agreed, I've seen 106*C after 1h of Realbench at 5.2GHz and without direct airflow @ the VRM's. It's rock stable though.

I went through the review and a lot of his talking you could copy paste straight into Gigabyte's flyer...throughout the review he seems to be climaxing about options available on pretty much every Z390 board like fan curve controls, bios flash options, RGB etc. making me think it's a paid 'review'...



> "GIGABYTE Z390 AORUS MASTER" is a mistake-free product even if it is said to be the top model as general user's choice if Extreme is exceptional among GIGABYTE's gaming brand AORUS series, various metal armor, Back plate, Primantolia I / O shield, M.2 slot with 3 heat sinks etc. It is very luxurious specification that is inevitable in positioning of the product. In addition, as the AORUS Z390 motherboard is using "Design for All Cores 5 GHz +" as a catch phrase, the low heat generation performance of the VRM power supply and the cooling performance of the VRM power supply cooler have been extremely cold compared to other high-end Z390 motherboards It was.


Also, what is this screenshot of a Supermicro Z390 doing in an Aorus review?
http://livedoor.blogimg.jp/wisteriear/imgs/8/8/888cbe10.png

Not hating on Aorus because these boards are doing well, just that this review is completely over the top in my opinion. It has good VRM's but that's pretty much it, similar priced boards offer roughly the same features. On the other hand, I've looked at his other reviews and they all seem over exaggerated the same way.


----------



## AlphaC

The reviewer is testing using AVIutl x264 as they always do. Every board's (whether it is Asus, Asrock, Gigabyte, MSI, or other) featureset is covered as usual : the copy-paste nature of listing a board's feature-set is inevitable.

It's a board with 4 DIMM slots, so don't expect to hit EVGA Dark / ROG Gene / Phantom ITX levels of memory OC...


https://www.nexthardware.com/recensioni/gigabyte-z390-aorus-master-1356/15/
RAM (19-19-19-39 CR2) - 4400MHz

http://oc.jagatreview.com/2018/10/overclocking-review-gigabyte-z390-aorus-masters/5/
4133MHz effective booting memory speed
4000MHz effective on 4 DIMMs

https://www.clockemup.com/giga-z390-aorus-master/5/
4133MHz effective

https://ru.gecid.com/mboard/gigabyte_z390_aorus_master/?s=1
3866Mhz effective (3200MHz C15 kit i.e. not XMP)

The only main vendor that has a 4 DIMM board above 4133MHz officially is MSI, because they do daisy chain for their memory so you can do 2 DIMMs at 4400MT/s on a 4 DIMM board.


The Z390 Master has better memory overclocking than the STRIX Z390-E per the Stilt's review (for both 2 DIMM and 4 DIMM), so it's not _terrible_ by any stretch of imagination when you consider the STRIX Z390-E is $240. It's known that over 3866MT/s memory is rare on Gigabyte z370 boards unless you follow the QVL. Anyhow it's a small subsection of people that actually will benefit when you consider the amount of people buying 4000MHz+ memory is low ; Intel CPUs don't benefit nearly as much as Ryzen CPUs from dumping money into memory.


P.S. if you go back through GBT-Matthew's posts , he lists the Aorus Xtreme as 8 layer PCB, Master is 6 layer, Ultra/Designare is 6 layer PCB, Pro/Elite are 4 layers (https://www.overclock.net/forum/6-i...cussion-thread-post27746548.html#post27746548). So if I had to venture a guess, the ASUS ROG Hero is 8 layer and Z390-E is 4 layer.


----------



## orbitech

I might as well post here so I don't open a new topic just for this question which I suspect has been asked many many times. 

I have a Maximus X Hero and thinking about swapping my [email protected] with a new 9900k. 

Are the X Hero VRMs sufficient for overclocking? I will not bother with extreme such as LN2 just trying to achieve the same 5GHz or a bit more if I'm lucky for 24/7 w/o issues.

Thanks in advance for any help..


----------



## Nizzen

orbitech said:


> I might as well post here so I don't open a new topic just for this question which I suspect has been asked many many times.
> 
> I have a Maximus X Hero and thinking about swapping my [email protected] with a new 9900k.
> 
> Are the X Hero VRMs sufficient for overclocking? I will not bother with extreme such as LN2 just trying to achieve the same 5GHz or a bit more if I'm lucky for 24/7 w/o issues.
> 
> Thanks in advance for any help..


Guru3d managed to OC 9900k with this hero board to 5,2ghz. Many others too.

It's good enough for most people. Want better, go Asus Apex or Gene 

If you want to play Prime95 all day long, and not gaming. Go for Gigabyte z390 extrem waterforce. Only 1k$ LOL

https://www.gigabyte.com/Motherboard/Z390-AORUS-XTREME-WATERFORCE-rev-10#kf


----------



## GeneO

Nizzen said:


> Guru3d managed to OC 9900k with this hero board to 5,2ghz. Many others too.
> 
> It's good enough for most people. Want better, go Asus Apex or Gene
> 
> If you want to play Prime95 all day long, and not gaming. Go for Gigabyte z390 extrem waterforce. Only 1k$ LOL
> 
> https://www.gigabyte.com/Motherboard/Z390-AORUS-XTREME-WATERFORCE-rev-10#kf



He has a Maximus X hero not an XI hero.


----------



## orbitech

This.. Thanks.. I've seen some videos in YT where they have successfully managed to o/c it @5GHZ and probably more. The thing is I want to know if VRMs are good enough to withstand the temps for turbo clocks and 24/7 voltages for a more demanding CPU than 8700k.


----------



## wingman99

My VRM getting a little warm 117c on the Gigabyte Z370 HD3 with i7 9700k at 4.9GHz.


----------



## orbitech

wingman99 said:


> My VRM getting a little warm 117c on the Gigabyte Z370 HD3 with i7 9700k at 4.9GHz.
> 
> View attachment 251144


Thanks for the feedback. I was thinking of putting extra fans on top to cool the VRMs more efficiently for this purpose. But I'd like to know if it will be sufficiently power my 24/7 o/c of 9900k before I proceed. 

If I'm to change the mobo as well I will probably stay with my 8700k no need to drop serious $$$ in just one gen..


----------



## Falkentyne

wingman99 said:


> My VRM getting a little warm 117c on the Gigabyte Z370 HD3 with i7 9700k at 4.9GHz.
> 
> View attachment 251144


Why are you using hwmonitor instead of hwinfo64?


----------



## wingman99

Falkentyne said:


> Why are you using hwmonitor instead of hwinfo64?


It's more compact and the readings are the same.


----------



## SpeedyIV

orbitech said:


> This.. Thanks.. I've seen some videos in YT where they have successfully managed to o/c it @5GHZ and probably more. The thing is I want to know if VRMs are good enough to withstand the temps for turbo clocks and 24/7 voltages for a more demanding CPU than 8700k.


Which VRMs?

I know there were 2 versions of the Max X Hero WIFI and they have totally different VRM configurations. I am not sure if there are 2 versions of the Max X Hero (not WIFI). If there are 2 versions, you should figure out which one you have before trying to decide. For the Max X Hero WIFI, the original version used an ASP1400BT PWM controller and a parallel 4 x 2 BSG0812ND FET arrangement. Later boards had a ASP1405I PWM controller, IR3599 doublers and ZF906 FETs. This version was the same as the Max X Formula and Code. Apparently, Asus "upgraded" the Hero WIFI VRM to be the same as the next 2 boards up the product stack due to a component shortage of the cheaper parts. After the parts shortage passed, the Max X Hero WIFI went back to the original design. Someone recently posted that there are 2 versions of the Max X Formula too. 

Kind of makes it hard to select which model you want to go with when there is no way of knowing that the board you will get has the same VRM components as the boards being reviewed. Asus makes these major changes to critical components, and does not document or advertise the differences. Maybe its just me, but I find this practice to be very frustrating. People in these threads analyze and debate every component in the power delivery circuits. That's great but if the manufacturer decides to totally change the VRM on a specific model, with no notice, what use is it to read and watch reviews of a version that may be totally different than what you bought.

Good luck!


----------



## scracy

orbitech said:


> This.. Thanks.. I've seen some videos in YT where they have successfully managed to o/c it @5GHZ and probably more. The thing is I want to know if VRMs are good enough to withstand the temps for turbo clocks and 24/7 voltages for a more demanding CPU than 8700k.


Im running a [email protected]/1.35V LLC 5 on a Maximus X Formula without any issues, I dont think there will be an issue running 5Ghz on a Hero X board VRM wise


----------



## wingman99

scracy said:


> Im running a [email protected]/1.35V LLC 5 on a Maximus X Formula without any issues, I dont think there will be an issue running 5Ghz on a Hero X board VRM wise


What do you use for stress testing?


----------



## howling391

orbitech said:


> This.. Thanks.. I've seen some videos in YT where they have successfully managed to o/c it @5GHZ and probably more. The thing is I want to know if VRMs are good enough to withstand the temps for turbo clocks and 24/7 voltages for a more demanding CPU than 8700k.


There are 2 revisions for the Maximus X Hero but both of them can absolutely handle the 9900k @ 5.0 ghz from my testing.

More info here(there's pictures for you to compare which revision you have): https://www.overclock.net/forum/5-intel-cpus/1718076-9900k-die-lapping-maximus-x-hero-results.html


----------



## scracy

wingman99 said:


> What do you use for stress testing?


I ran OCCT large data sets as I always do but didn't take a screenshot from memory highest core temperature was 80 degrees C will do some more testing once the weather cools off in Australia current outside temperature is 38 degrees C and we have had a few around 44 degrees C, purchased the 9900K from a fellow Overclock.net member Encrypted11 pre binned (his screenshot of my CPU), I think the CPU is capable of 5.4Ghz for bench runs maybe even 24/7 given how this CPU seems to scale voltage wise, stock VID is a very low 0.896V see below.


----------



## orbitech

SpeedyIV said:


> Which VRMs?
> 
> I know there were 2 versions of the Max X Hero WIFI and they have totally different VRM configurations. I am not sure if there are 2 versions of the Max X Hero (not WIFI). If there are 2 versions, you should figure out which one you have before trying to decide. For the Max X Hero WIFI, the original version used an ASP1400BT PWM controller and a parallel 4 x 2 BSG0812ND FET arrangement. Later boards had a ASP1405I PWM controller, IR3599 doublers and ZF906 FETs. This version was the same as the Max X Formula and Code. Apparently, Asus "upgraded" the Hero WIFI VRM to be the same as the next 2 boards up the product stack due to a component shortage of the cheaper parts. After the parts shortage passed, the Max X Hero WIFI went back to the original design. Someone recently posted that there are 2 versions of the Max X Formula too.
> 
> Kind of makes it hard to select which model you want to go with when there is no way of knowing that the board you will get has the same VRM components as the boards being reviewed. Asus makes these major changes to critical components, and does not document or advertise the differences. Maybe its just me, but I find this practice to be very frustrating. People in these threads analyze and debate every component in the power delivery circuits. That's great but if the manufacturer decides to totally change the VRM on a specific model, with no notice, what use is it to read and watch reviews of a version that may be totally different than what you bought.
> 
> Good luck!






scracy said:


> Im running a [email protected]/1.35V LLC 5 on a Maximus X Formula without any issues, I dont think there will be an issue running 5Ghz on a Hero X board VRM wise





howling391 said:


> There are 2 revisions for the Maximus X Hero but both of them can absolutely handle the 9900k @ 5.0 ghz from my testing.
> 
> More info here(there's pictures for you to compare which revision you have): https://www.overclock.net/forum/5-intel-cpus/1718076-9900k-die-lapping-maximus-x-hero-results.html



Thank you all for your feedback and thank you Howling for your informative thread which I'm planning to read asap. 
SpeedyIV can I check which pwm controller I have with s/w or do I need to check out myself in the mobo?


----------



## Telstar

scracy said:


> I think the CPU is capable of 5.4Ghz for bench runs maybe even 24/7 given how this CPU seems to scale voltage wise, stock VID is a very low 0.896V see below.


Similar to mine, which tops at 5,[email protected],35V. A 5,4+ capable 9900k is top 10% or less.


----------



## scracy

Telstar said:


> Similar to mine, which tops at 5,[email protected],35V. A 5,4+ capable 9900k is top 10% or less.


Curious to know your stock VID? I did a google search for my batch L830F073 and it seems to be a consistently good batch  If i were running a Maximus XI series board then my Vcore would appear to be lower than it is on my Maximus X as it is measured from a different point.


----------



## Telstar

scracy said:


> Curious to know your stock VID? I did a google search for my batch L830F073 and it seems to be a consistently good batch  If i were running a Maximus XI series board then my Vcore would appear to be lower than it is on my Maximus X as it is measured from a different point.


very low: 0,880. Not sure if there is VID a reading point o my Gene.


----------



## scracy

Telstar said:


> very low: 0,880. Not sure if there is VID a reading point o my Gene.


That is excellent :thumb:


----------



## encrypted11

M11 uses die-sense for vCore readouts, while M10 and earlier reads socket-sense for vCore. It's the 1-liner answer. But based on a conversation with elmor, the calibration of LLC levels haven't changed. (Pure readout disparity)


----------



## Telstar

it doesn't matter to me: i have a 7digit true rms multimeter.


----------



## ArneR

Is that the VID for all core turboboost? Surely it isn't single core max turbo right?


----------



## Falkentyne

ArneR said:


> Is that the VID for all core turboboost? Surely it isn't single core max turbo right?


VID 0.880v is only possible with downclocking (adaptive voltage) or c-states.
You could also force the VID to be that low by using a low RING ratio, but this totally will mess up adaptive vcore since adaptive is based on the VID (most people don't realize this).
If you use a ring of x43, you will need a HIGHER offset than if you use a ring of x47.


----------



## ArneR

It seems you don't remember my posts in the 8700k overclocking results thread then, I am fully aware how adaptive vcore works. But yeah, many seem to not see the link between the two.

That VID of less than 900mv was artificially low, even for a super binned chip if it in fact was what hwinfo reported while running an all core load at turbo speeds. The more I think of it it would make more sense if that VID was at base freq. at 3.6GHz. I don't think I ever tested that on my 8700k so I can't say if it is low or super low. I just tested the VID at 47x which is the max all core boost, with IA loadlines at 0.01, and picked my cpu out of a few that way. Since I want to run adaptive, I'm kinda dependant of a cpu with a low default VID. 

EDIT: Did a quick and dirty test by adjusting the max and min cpu power in the power plan to 99%, my cpu only went up to 3.6GHz, but the VID fluctuated from 0.985 and 1.010. The latter during avx prime95. I could retest by disabling turbo in bios for more real VID at stock 3.7GHz, but not now.


----------



## elmor

Telstar said:


> it doesn't matter to me: i have a 7digit true rms multimeter.



It matters loads. Depending on where you probe you'll get vastly different numbers if there's current flowing through the board, that will not change with better equipment. Because of the voltage drop across the power planes (Vcore and ground) you'll get a higher reading closer to the VRM output (inductor or bulk capacitor) than closer to the CPU (socket MLCC or die-sense). The larger the current, the larger the error. Most boards measure somewhere in between to yield a suitable number. Maximus XI boards (or Vout reading from the controller on others) show what the voltage is on the CPU die. Anyone with a X399 board and an overclocked 24-32C CPU will read something like 1.6-1.7V when stressed at 1.2-1.3V set due the the ridiculous output current (400W/1.2V = 333A) and the sense point being tuned for max 16C. The refreshed Zenith Alpha has that fixed afaik.


----------



## scracy

ArneR said:


> It seems you don't remember my posts in the 8700k overclocking results thread then, I am fully aware how adaptive vcore works. But yeah, many seem to not see the link between the two.
> 
> That VID of less than 900mv was artificially low, even for a super binned chip if it in fact was what hwinfo reported while running an all core load at turbo speeds. The more I think of it it would make more sense if that VID was at base freq. at 3.6GHz. I don't think I ever tested that on my 8700k so I can't say if it is low or super low. I just tested the VID at 47x which is the max all core boost, with IA loadlines at 0.01, and picked my cpu out of a few that way. Since I want to run adaptive, I'm kinda dependant of a cpu with a low default VID.
> 
> EDIT: Did a quick and dirty test by adjusting the max and min cpu power in the power plan to 99%, my cpu only went up to 3.6GHz, but the VID fluctuated from 0.985 and 1.010. The latter during avx prime95. I could retest by disabling turbo in bios for more real VID at stock 3.7GHz, but not now.


The stock VID I was referring to in my post of 0.896V is what appears in the UEFI screenshot that I posted for my 9900K, I would assume thats the voltage my CPU requires for 3.6Ghz base frequency  In the past a low stock VID is an indication of how well a particular CPU will overclock, obviously the lower the stock VID the better, 0.880V stock VID would potentially indicate Telstar's 9900K would clock higher than mine.


----------



## Telstar

ArneR said:


> Is that the VID for all core turboboost? Surely it isn't single core max turbo right?


No, it's the default, read from bios the first time you mount the cpu or after a reset. It is a useful parameter for daily overclock and I believe it was used as "silicon quality" reference in early Asus ROG bioses. Of course silicon lottery still matters.


----------



## Telstar

scracy said:


> The stock VID I was referring to in my post of 0.896V is what appears in the UEFI screenshot that I posted for my 9900K, I would assume thats the voltage my CPU requires for 3.6Ghz base frequency


Exactly.



> In the past a low stock VID is an indication of how well a particular CPU will overclock, obviously the lower the stock VID the better, 0.880V stock VID would potentially indicate Telstar's 9900K would clock higher than mine.


More likely that it requires a little less voltage for the same frequency (i.e. 5,3ghz at 1,35 while i think yours need 1,36? Also my cpu won't go to 5,4 while yours still may, with a good loop).


----------



## Telstar

elmor said:


> It matters loads. Depending on where you probe you'll get vastly different numbers if there's current flowing through the board, that will not change with better equipment. Because of the voltage drop across the power planes (Vcore and ground) you'll get a higher reading closer to the VRM output (inductor or bulk capacitor) than closer to the CPU (socket MLCC or die-sense). The larger the current, the larger the error. Most boards measure somewhere in between to yield a suitable number. Maximus XI boards (or Vout reading from the controller on others) show what the voltage is on the CPU die.


Yes, sorry, I mean that I will read it on the reading points on my Gene.
Then I will look into software to find the one that is closer.


----------



## scracy

Telstar said:


> scracy said:
> 
> 
> 
> The stock VID I was referring to in my post of 0.896V is what appears in the UEFI screenshot that I posted for my 9900K, I would assume thats the voltage my CPU requires for 3.6Ghz base frequency /forum/images/smilies/smile.gif
> 
> 
> 
> Exactly.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In the past a low stock VID is an indication of how well a particular CPU will overclock, obviously the lower the stock VID the better, 0.880V stock VID would potentially indicate Telstar's 9900K would clock higher than mine.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> More likely that it requires a little less voltage for the same frequency (i.e. 5,3ghz at 1,35 while i think yours need 1,36? Also my cpu won't go to 5,4 while yours still may, with a good loop).
Click to expand...

Agreed what I was trying to get at was the relevance of a low stock VID, I may be able to get to 5.4Ghz as I do have a good custom loop however due to the weather conditions here and time constraints I havent had a chance to push beyond 5.2Ghz. The previous owner of my 9900K @encrypted11 is confident that it will but was unable to test due to heat constraints with his cooling setup however he did tell me he was able to boot into windows at 5.5Ghz.


----------



## encrypted11

The chip just required die-sense of about 1.27xV for 5.2/4.8 OCCT, that's probably around 1.344 or 1.35V with the old socket sense/ SIO (traditional) readout at LLC5.
The vCore scaling is extremely tight 5.2GHz and under.

To favour efficient vCore/vCache scaling, you'd end up with 5.0/4.6, 5.1/4.7, 5.2/4.8 and it's about 25-30mV per 100MHz gain in that region, so 5.3GHz isn't a difficult target with the vCore headroom.
(5.0/4.7 would require the 5.1/4.7 voltage, because of the vCache increment required to scale the next 100MHz would incidentally give you +100MHz on the core).

This sample in particular doesn't start with the lowest 5.0GHz voltage (albeit 1.22V at die-sense being an already respectable number), but it does end up with an excellent v/f scaling even when it's hitting the 5.2+ region. For a 9900K it does seem like the specimen with a very good cache and memory controller.

(SA+200MHz over Intel's rating with SA at stock voltage, IO at a mild bump over stock to run [email protected]'s 4133 b-die single side profile on the M11A/G.


----------



## wingman99

encrypted11 said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> The chip just required die-sense of about 1.27xV for 5.2/4.8 OCCT, that's probably around 1.344 or 1.35V with the old socket sense/ SIO (traditional) readout at LLC5.
> The vCore scaling is extremely tight 5.2GHz and under.
> 
> To favour efficient vCore/vCache scaling, you'd end up with 5.0/4.6, 5.1/4.7, 5.2/4.8 and it's about 25-30mV per 100MHz gain in that region, so 5.3GHz isn't a difficult target with the vCore headroom.
> (5.0/4.7 would require the 5.1/4.7 voltage, because of the vCache increment required to scale the next 100MHz would incidentally give you +100MHz on the core).
> 
> This sample in particular doesn't start with the lowest 5.0GHz voltage (albeit 1.22V at die-sense being an already respectable number), but it does end up with an excellent v/f scaling even when it's hitting the 5.2+ region. For a 9900K it does seem like the specimen with a very good cache and memory controller.
> 
> (SA+200MHz over Intel's rating with SA at stock voltage, IO at a mild bump over stock to run [email protected]'s 4133 b-die single side profile on the M11A/G.


how come the core voltage is 0.036v?


----------



## eric98k

Luumi: EVGA Z390 DARK Unboxing, Overview, BIOS Walkthrough & Overclocking Test


----------



## Martin778

The mythical Dark...will become available after Z390 reaches EOL 😄 😄 😄


----------



## eric98k

Martin778 said:


> The mythical Dark...will become available after Z390 reaches EOL 😄 😄 😄


Available on EVGA.com and Ebay since Jan 10, and Z390 hasn't reached EOL yet 

Edit: It's available in NA for now. Not in EU indeed. Sigh


----------



## Martin778

It's not even in the store on EVGA EU, the Z390 section only mentions the FTW.

+
I've waited for X299, got it but I'm not going to pay €550 for a Z390 Board which is more expensive than HEDT X299 DARK, that's insanity (and that comes from someone who bought the Lightning Z 2080Ti) 😞


----------



## encrypted11

wingman99 said:


> how come the core voltage is 0.036v?


Adaptive mode.Blanket VID offset implementations typically don't turn vCore down to 0.00V since it needs to account for possible negative offsets applied in BIOS.
CPU applies offsets in just turbo states unlike conventional VID offset mode / DVID. ASRock implemented adaptive mode lately now Asus, ASRock and MSI BIOSes currently support adaptive mode.










The matrix on C states from the Intel 8th/9th gen datasheet vol. 1


----------



## wingman99

encrypted11 said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> Adaptive mode.Blanket VID offset implementations typically don't turn vCore down to 0.00V since it needs to account for possible negative offsets applied in BIOS.
> CPU applies offsets in just turbo states unlike conventional VID offset mode / DVID. ASRock implemented adaptive mode lately now Asus, ASRock and MSI BIOSes currently support adaptive mode.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The matrix on C states from the Intel 8th/9th gen datasheet vol. 1


Thanks for the explanation. What are your Core voltage BIOS settings and what do you use for stress test?


----------



## encrypted11

For ASRock, I'm only able to determine the offset voltages (it'll depend where the VID of this CPU takes me to).

In this case, +20mV offset (the option hasn't been renamed adaptive in ASRock's BIOS though adaptive capable BIOSes shipped in december beta builds). OCCT LDS build 4.5.1.

Non-AVX 1.296-1.312V, AVX ~1.328V-1.344, short bursts of 1.36V. Fatal1ty Gaming-ITX/ac's offset mode was easier to control as the AVX/non-AVX VIDs (since it influences vCore requests) are closer than what the Z390 requests for, I had to account for the non-AVX vMin so that's where my overclock sits on currently. Default VID on MXH/Z370 Gaming-ITX/ac/Phantom Gaming-ITX/ac of my 8700k reads 1.072V.

Chip used to run 1.312-1.328V OCCT LDS on the Z370 Gaming-ITX/ac.


----------



## wingman99

encrypted11 said:


> For ASRock, I'm only able to determine the offset voltages (it'll depend where the VID of this CPU takes me to).
> 
> In this case, +20mV offset (the option hasn't been renamed adaptive in ASRock's BIOS though adaptive capable BIOSes shipped in december beta builds). OCCT LDS build 4.5.1.
> 
> Non-AVX 1.296-1.312V, AVX ~1.328V-1.344, short bursts of 1.36V. Fatal1ty Gaming-ITX/ac's offset mode was easier to control as the AVX/non-AVX VIDs (since it influences vCore requests) are closer than what the Z390 requests for, I had to account for the non-AVX vMin so that's where my overclock sits on currently. Default VID on MXH/Z370 Gaming-ITX/ac/Phantom Gaming-ITX/ac of my 8700k reads 1.072V.
> 
> Chip used to run 1.312-1.328V OCCT LDS on the Z370 Gaming-ITX/ac.


What do you run to test with AVX instructions and what temperatures are you getting?


----------



## encrypted11

OCCT large data sets and RB 2.56


----------



## Telstar

Martin778 said:


> I've waited for X299, got it but I'm not going to pay €550 for a Z390 Board which is more expensive than HEDT X299 DARK


I gave up on it once I heard the price. At 310 and 340€ the Gene and Apex are much better deals.


----------



## Martin778

Apex was €429 where I ordered it, only Casking has it.


----------



## Telstar

Martin778 said:


> Apex was €429 where I ordered it, only Casking has it.


ugh, did u check idealo.de? Last time I did was from 340.


----------



## Martin778

Weird, here you can't even get the Gene for €340. Most shops start at €350-55 for teh M11G.


----------



## Alexandrus

AlphaC said:


> @ eric98k , I revised the chart https://www.overclock.net/forum/6-i...0-vrm-discussion-thread-216.html#post27657582


Sorry to ask, but can you somehow link the attachment directly ?
If I am logged it, the page numbers do not correspond and I never get to the post in question, stupid forum linking issues.
If I am logged out, to have the default post per page, the entire topic will not load, error 500, no matter what browser I use.

PS. Never mind, sorted, I changed to default posts per page, thank you.


----------



## jfriend00

Alexandrus said:


> Sorry to ask, but can you somehow link the attachment directly ?
> If I am logged it, the page numbers do not correspond and I never get to the post in question, stupid forum linking issues.
> If I am logged out, to have the default post per page, the entire topic will not load, error 500, no matter what browser I use.
> 
> PS. Never mind, sorted, I changed to default posts per page, thank you.


This is an issue with the entire forum. If you change your paging, then NO google search on this forum ever works. It takes you to page 20, but because the site is so slow and laden with slow ads, I've changing to larger paging to make it more efficient to read threads so I need page 10 to see that post and then NO google search ever lands on the right post. This is a real issue with this forum. I'd change back to default paging if the site wasn't so ridiculously slow. It's the slowest site I use regularly. As soon as I find a decent alternative that performs better, I will leave here.


----------



## eric98k

Alexandrus said:


> Sorry to ask, but can you somehow link the attachment directly ?
> If I am logged it, the page numbers do not correspond and I never get to the post in question, stupid forum linking issues.
> If I am logged out, to have the default post per page, the entire topic will not load, error 500, no matter what browser I use.
> 
> PS. Never mind, sorted, I changed to default posts per page, thank you.


Use the post link instead of anchored address: https://www.overclock.net/forum/27657582-post2156.html


----------



## Timur Born

Question about power efficiency:

I am using a Gigabyte Aorus Master. At idle (C1E or C3) my rig draws around 35w from the wall using the integrated graphic. Running P95 FMA3 small FFTs load at x49 pulls 350w from the wall while HWinfo reports CPU package power as 250w and Pout as 220w. The Seasonic (Platinum) power-supply is rated at 660w, so I don't know how much loss is happening in the 300w region (50% load).

Is the rest of the 100w discrepancy heat produced by the mainboard VRMs (80+°C reported)?!


----------



## jfriend00

Timur Born said:


> Question about power efficiency:
> 
> I am using a Gigabyte Aorus Master. At idle (C1E or C3) my rig draws around 35w from the wall using the integrated graphic. Running P95 FMA3 small FFTs load at x49 pulls 350w from the wall while HWinfo reports CPU package power as 250w and Pout as 220w. The Seasonic (Platinum) power-supply is rated at 660w, so I don't know how much loss is happening in the 300w region (50% load).
> 
> Is the rest of the 100w discrepancy heat produced by the mainboard VRMs (80+°C reported)?!


If you're interested in a measured power efficiency curve for your power supply, there's a graph of efficiency vs. load in these reviews: 

https://www.eteknix.com/seasonic-platinum-series-660w-modular-power-supply-review/all/1/

https://www.pcper.com/reviews/Cases...-Power-Supply-Review/Efficiency-Differential-


----------



## Timur Born

Thanks for the links. I knew the curve for my PSU a few years ago, but didn't remember exactly. So at around 50% my PSU is at around 94% efficiency, aka peak efficiency. Which means that most the 100w discrepancy seems to be on the mainboard VRMs?


----------



## jfriend00

Timur Born said:


> Thanks for the links. I knew the curve for my PSU a few years ago, but didn't remember exactly. So at around 50% my PSU is at around 94% efficiency, aka peak efficiency. Which means that most the 100w discrepancy seems to be on the mainboard VRMs?


It would take a bunch of work to account for the 100w. 6% of 300 would account for 18% right there. Then, keep in mind there's hard drives, case fans, memory sticks, graphics cards, USB peripherals, other chips on the mainboard, etc... in addition to the VRMs.


----------



## Timur Born

jfriend00 said:


> It would take a bunch of work to account for the 100w. 6% of 300 would account for 18% right there. Then, keep in mind there's hard drives, case fans, memory sticks, graphics cards, USB peripherals, other chips on the mainboard, etc... in addition to the VRMs.


SSD, memory, graphic card (tested with integrated), USB and other stuff is not taxed during P95 Small FFT load. But I was thinking about fans already without doing a proper comparison yet. Turns out that the fans (5x 120 mm + AIO pump) account for a total of 15 watts out of those 100 watts. 6% efficiency loss from the power-supply accounts for around another 16 watts.

So this leaves us with about 70 watts of extra power draw on top of what the CPU is reporting as package power, or 100 watts over what the mainboard is reporting as POUT. That's still a lot of power that mostly seems to turn into heat. I will check different VRM phase control settings (MB defaults to Extreme) to see how this affects this peak output specifically.


----------



## Timur Born

VRM temperature plays its part, too. There is a 5-10 watts difference for the same CPU load between the VRM being cool or hot.


----------



## Timur Born

VRM phase control does nothing for power draw at this peak load, VRM switching rate changes power draw only by 1-2 watts (going between 300 and 500 kHz). So am I mostly looking at over 70 watts of power being turned into heat by the Aorus Master's VRM section? Or is it heat produced by the CPU that is not reported as CPU Package Power (even less so as POUT)?


----------



## Falkentyne

Timur Born said:


> VRM phase control does nothing for power draw at this peak load, VRM switching rate changes power draw only by 1-2 watts (going between 300 and 500 kHz). So am I mostly looking at over 70 watts of power being turned into heat by the Aorus Master's VRM section? Or is it heat produced by the CPU that is not reported as CPU Package Power (even less so as POUT)?


CPU Package Power= CPU VID * Amps (IOUT)
POUT: CPU On-die sense (VR VOUT) * IOUT (excluding virus overshoot in microseconds, only detectable on an oscilloscope).


----------



## Timur Born

I don't fully trust POUT, because it reads bogus values during idle. It can read 0 (zero!) and it can read too much during idle when Speedshift is used (along with VOUT). If POUT is correct during peak load then the difference compared to the wall is even bigger (100w).

So where does all that (30% of total) power go other than VRM heat? Is this really efficient?


----------



## wingman99

Falkentyne said:


> CPU Package Power= CPU VID * Amps (IOUT)
> POUT: CPU On-die sense (VR VOUT) * IOUT (excluding virus overshoot in microseconds, only detectable on an oscilloscope).


The motherboard Vcore sensors take 10 samples per second. If you run Vcore monitoring for a hour folks will pick up the peak voltage spikes randomly. The motherboard Vcore sensor only has to land sampling on Vcore spike.


----------



## Falkentyne

wingman99 said:


> The motherboard Vcore sensors take 10 samples per second. If you run Vcore monitoring for a hour folks will pick up the peak voltage spikes randomly. The motherboard Vcore sensor only has to land sampling on Vcore spike.


This is not what Elmor told me.


----------



## wingman99

Falkentyne said:


> This is not what Elmor told me.


Check it your self.

This is mine 
Sampling for 1 Minute Fixed Vcore BIOS 1.260v LLC Turbo Minimum and Maximum Vcore 1.248v to 1.272v 
Sampling for 2 Hours Fixed Vcore BIOS 1.260v LLC Turbo Minimum and Maximum Vcore 1.212v to 1.332v


----------



## Falkentyne

wingman99 said:


> Check it your self.
> 
> This is mine
> Sampling for 1 Minute Fixed Vcore BIOS 1.260v LLC Turbo Minimum and Maximum Vcore 1.248v to 1.272v
> Sampling for 2 Hours Fixed Vcore BIOS 1.260v LLC Turbo Minimum and Maximum Vcore 1.212v to 1.332v


That's the SIO register. That has nothing to do with voltage spikes.
You need an oscilloscope for those.
VR VOUT has even bigger spikes when you use LLC Ultra Extreme, and if you leave it running for 10 hours, neither the ITE 8792E or IR 35201 VRM sensor will read such a massive spike. (8792E will rise at load and remain there, 35201 will remain at bios setting).

Buy an oscilloscope and check for yourself.


----------



## charliehorse55

Any idea where to find information about the MP86945 that supposedly powers the Supermicro Z390-CG board? (according to anandtech) I tried googling the part number, but I didn't get any results.


----------



## VeritronX

What I want to see is a scope profiling the master running llc on extreme as that looks to be the setting I would use.. turbo has too much droop / to high voltage on low load for my liking but ultra extreme is too dangerous on the load cut spikes.


----------



## wingman99

Falkentyne said:


> That's the SIO register.  That has nothing to do with voltage spikes.
> You need an oscilloscope for those.
> VR VOUT has even bigger spikes when you use LLC Ultra Extreme, and if you leave it running for 10 hours, neither the ITE 8792E or IR 35201 VRM sensor will read such a massive spike. (8792E will rise at load and remain there, 35201 will remain at bios setting).
> 
> Buy an oscilloscope and check for yourself.


I had to wait a hour to pickup the highest voltage spikes, it can bee done without a oscilloscope it just takes more time without the fast frequency pickup. Oscilloscope has a faster sampling rate, however the motherboard sensors of 10 reads per second and can pick out peak voltage spikes infrequently. The motherboard sensors read voltage it just depends when it is sampling the voltage if there is a spike at the time of the reading voltage.


----------



## Falkentyne

wingman99 said:


> I had to wait a hour to pickup the highest voltage spikes, it can bee done without a oscilloscope it just takes more time without the fast frequency pickup. Oscilloscope has a faster sampling rate, however the motherboard sensors of 10 reads per second and can pick out peak voltage spikes infrequently. The motherboard sensors read voltage it just depends when it is sampling the voltage if there is a spike at the time of the reading voltage.


But you're not reading an accurate voltage. That's your fallacy.
You're reading the super I/O chip.

If you want more accurate voltage you need to read the VRM controller (??) ITE 8792E (reads MLCC socket caps)
Or the actual IR 35201 (On-die sense).

Neither of these show these sorts of spikes.
The super I/O chip is ITE 8688E. I've seen spikes of almost 100mv on it when the CPU was completely idle with barely any load at all.


----------



## Timur Born

VeritronX said:


> ... to high voltage on low load for my liking...


Why is this a problem?


----------



## VeritronX

The real problem is that the spikes are so quick that the time taken to sample it by the onboard controllers is long enough to average it out at a lower value than the true peak of the spike, so the only way to know what that peak was is with a very accurate oscilloscope.

What I want to see is the scope reading peaks taken from the sense pin input connected to the vrm controller.. so far I think we've just seen scopes hooked up to caps on the back of the socket?


----------



## eric98k

Anandtech review: ASUS Z390-I Gaming vs. ASRock Z390 Gaming-ITX/ac
https://www.anandtech.com/show/1384...ng-asrock-z390-phantom-gaming-itx-ac-review/9

ASUS Z390-I Vcore VRM 3-phase in parallel, yet performs well enough. ASRock Z390 Gaming-ITX/ac has better VRM indeed. Overclocking test it shows better voltage, better temp, but higher power draw at the wall. Why?


----------



## encrypted11

It's an 8700K, it sips less current than the 9900K.

With the 9900K's package temp at the 200W range, it is very likely that the heat gets sinked back into the PCB through the socket so elevated VRM temperatures shouldn't come as a surprise.
I wouldn't be surprised the test would indicate a very different result between these boards if the CPU used in question were a 9900K sipping over 150A without much effort when overclocked.



eric98k said:


> Anandtech review: ASUS Z390-I Gaming vs. ASRock Z390 Gaming-ITX/ac
> https://www.anandtech.com/show/1384...ng-asrock-z390-phantom-gaming-itx-ac-review/9
> 
> ASUS Z390-I Vcore VRM 3-phase in parallel, yet performs well enough. ASRock Z390 Gaming-ITX/ac has better VRM indeed. Overclocking test it shows better voltage, better temp, but higher power draw at the wall. Why?


----------



## elmor

eric98k said:


> Anandtech review: ASUS Z390-I Gaming vs. ASRock Z390 Gaming-ITX/ac
> https://www.anandtech.com/show/1384...ng-asrock-z390-phantom-gaming-itx-ac-review/9
> 
> ASUS Z390-I Vcore VRM 3-phase in parallel, yet performs well enough. ASRock Z390 Gaming-ITX/ac has better VRM indeed. Overclocking test it shows better voltage, better temp, but higher power draw at the wall. Why?



Two possible reasons:

1. The Asrock board could have a more aggressive "Auto" LLC value meaing the real voltage under load at 1.35V set is about the same as the Asus board at 1.40V. The Strix Z390-I does not have the improved voltage monitoring present on Maximus XI boards so I wouldn't trust any reported values, they're only good for comparisons on the same board not between different models.
2. The VRM efficiency could be worse on the Asrock board than the Asus board.

Most likely a combination of both. CPU temperature is a few degress lower on the Asrock board indicating the voltage is lower, but it's also small enough that it might be due to mounting differences and the voltage is actually the same.


----------



## Timur Born

> 5.1 GHz with 1.35 V and a power draw of 255 W at the wall


Why does their 5.1 GHz 8700K at 1.35v draw a full 100w less power at the wall than my 4.9 GHz (AVX offset) 9900K at 1.265v (1.215 VOUT)? That's 100w for two more cores?!

And I still would like to know why my rig pulls so much more power at the wall than CPU package power when mostly only the CPU is taxed (Small FFT load)?


----------



## Falkentyne

Timur Born said:


> Why does their 5.1 GHz 8700K at 1.35v draw a full 100w less power at the wall than my 4.9 GHz (AVX offset) 9900K at 1.265v (1.215 VOUT)? That's 100w for two more cores?!
> 
> And I still would like to know why my rig pulls so much more power at the wall than CPU package power when mostly only the CPU is taxed (Small FFT load)?


CPU package power is based on CPU VID remember?
And no, it doesn't line up with the VRM controller's amp measurement because the CPU gets the amp load from somewhere else other than the VRM.

The only person who would know is either Elmor, or an Intel or possibly one of the Asus engineers. Very few on these forums would know.
Power (POUT) is based on VR VOUT (CPU on-die sense voltage) * Current (IOUT).

CPU package power is HEAVILY based on the CPU VID.
Don't believe me?
Set Internal VR ->IA AC loadline to 1 and IA DC loadline to 210 (yes, 1 and 210) and compare the cpu package power and POUT.
Then after that, set IA AC Loadline to 1 and IA DC loadline to 1 (instead of 1 and 210) and compare them again.


----------



## wingman99

Falkentyne said:


> CPU package power is based on CPU VID remember?


No CPU package power is based on voltage X AMPs = watts measurement from the motherboard sensors. 1.32v X 130amp=171.6 watts

VID is (voltage identification digital) from the processor and is not used when using fixed core voltage only used with adaptive core voltage.


----------



## Falkentyne

wingman99 said:


> No CPU package power is based on voltage X AMPs = watts measurement from the motherboard sensors. 1.32v X 130amp=171.6 watts
> 
> VID is (voltage identification digital) from the processor and is not used when using fixed core voltage only used with adaptive core voltage.


You are half right and half wrong.

VID is still used for package power consumption.
It's not used for CPU Vcore when set to fixed, EXCEPT in most laptops, where "fixed" vcore acts like a VID override rather than a vcore override.
Unclewebb had the documentation for this. He also has more information I am not going to discuss here as I am not allowed to.
If it were not used, changing IMON SLOPE and IMON OFFSET would not spoof the CPU power reporting.

*Edit* Im aware I don't have the CPU speed shown in picture 1, I do not know how to have HWinfo multiple windows show the CPU VID CPU Package power AND VR output in 3 windows because you can only scroll the last window.

Test 1: IA AC Loadline=1, IA DC Loadline=1, 4.7 ghz core, x44 ring, VID 1.183v, Package power 198W, POUT (VRM) 181W, VR VOUT 1.131V, Amps 161.5W (IOUT).
(Notice that CPU package power is very close to 1.183 * 161.5?)

Test 2: IA AC Loadine=1, IA DC loadline=210, core x47, ring x36, VID 0.895v, CPU Package power 146W POUT (VRM) 178W, VR Vcore 1.133v, IOUT 158.750 amps.
(Notice that CPU package power is VERY VERY close to 158 * 0.895?)

There's your proof.


----------



## wingman99

Falkentyne said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> You are half right and half wrong.
> 
> VID is still used for package power consumption.
> It's not used for CPU Vcore when set to fixed, EXCEPT in most laptops, where "fixed" vcore acts like a VID override rather than a vcore override.
> Unclewebb had the documentation for this. He also has more information I am not going to discuss here as I am not allowed to.
> If it were not used, changing IMON SLOPE and IMON OFFSET would not spoof the CPU power reporting.
> 
> You want proof? Here's your proof.
> *Edit* Im aware I don't have the CPU speed shown in picture 1, I do not know how to have HWinfo multiple windows show the CPU VID CPU Package power AND VR output in 3 windows because you can only scroll the last window.
> 
> Test 1: IA AC Loadline=1, IA DC Loadline=1, 4.7 ghz core, x44 ring, VID 1.183v, Package power 198W, POUT (VRM) 181W, VR VOUT 1.131W, Amps 161.5W (IOUT).
> (Notice that CPU package power is very close to 1.183 * 161.5?)
> 
> Test 2: IA AC Loadine=1, IA DC loadline=210, core x47, ring x36, VID 0.895v, CPU Package power 146W POUT (VRM) 178W, VR Vcore 1.133v, IOUT 158.750 amps.
> (Notice that CPU package power is VERY VERY close to 158 * 0.895?)
> 
> There's your proof.


Thanks for the information. I got close to the same example.


----------



## Falkentyne

wingman99 said:


> Thanks for the information. I got close to the same example.


It's fine.
But this is also playing havoc with Tibur Born (whatever his name is)'s results because he uses c-states, and c-states completely screw up the VRM reporting, because the CPU basically "goes to sleep" and ignores what the VRM's are trying to output. The only way to get reliable reporting from the VRM's when also using adaptive (or offset/speed shift/underclocking) is to keep c-states enabled and just use speed shift (Throttlestop 8.70 can do this easily for you).

But yeah, CPU VID is never that far away from CPU Voltage, unless you use a low cache speed when overclocking. CPU VID is linked to the cache voltage at certain mhz steps (starting from 800 mhz and going up to 4.7 ghz on 9900K's, although not every +100 mhz is a VID increase). That's why you have the ratio of cache wanting to be -3 lower than core speed. Going too high on the cache will raise the default VID (up to 4.7 ghz) but will hurt baseline stability if it's the same speed as the core. Setting the cache very low when using offset/auto/adaptive voltages will require a large voltage +offset or require NOT using IA AC loadline=1.

While I mostly know how DC loadline works (it works the same way, with respect to the CPU VID and current, as Loadline Calibration works with respect to the Vcore--higher levels of loadline calibration work like "reducing the mOhms level of the DC loadline value, so a 0 mOhm Loadline Calibration (Ultra Extreme, or LLC8) is similar to IA DC loadline=1 (0.01 mOhms).

I still don't know exactly how AC loadline works, but it directly affects the CPU power supply in some way (at idle, the VID is much higher with AC loadline=1.6 mOhms (160 in gigabyte bioses or MSI (maybe) Bioses), compared to AC loadline=0.01 mOhms (1 in Gigabyte bioses/MSI).


----------



## Timur Born

Falkentyne said:


> CPU package power is based on CPU VID remember?
> And no, it doesn't line up with the VRM controller's amp measurement because the CPU gets the amp load from somewhere else other than the VRM.
> 
> The only person who would know is either Elmor, or an Intel or possibly one of the Asus engineers. Very few on these forums would know.
> Power (POUT) is based on VR VOUT (CPU on-die sense voltage) * Current (IOUT).
> 
> CPU package power is HEAVILY based on the CPU VID.


I can live with that. So the reported 250w CPU package power are higher than what the CPU really uses. POUT reports 220w instead, which means that the difference between real CPU power usage and power measured at the wall is even bigger (even after subtracting other components like PSU efficiency, fans, SSD and memory).

Which again begs the question: Is the remaining 100w turned into heat at the VRM stage?


----------



## Timur Born

Falkentyne said:


> But this is also playing havoc with Tibur Born (whatever his name is)'s results because he uses c-states, and c-states completely screw up the VRM reporting, because the CPU basically "goes to sleep" and ignores what the VRM's are trying to output. The only way to get reliable reporting from the VRM's when also using adaptive (or offset/speed shift/underclocking) is to keep c-states enabled and just use speed shift (Throttlestop 8.70 can do this easily for you).


I am using adaptive voltage in combination with speed shift. VOUT/POUT reports mostly only get screwed when active C-states are combined with active Speedshift, by the way. Without Speedshift things are a bit different.

This doesn't matter for full load scenarios, of course, because at 100% load neither C-states nor Speedshift are invoked.


----------



## Timur Born

At 80°C the VRM on my Aorus Master draws up to 10 watts more power for the same workload compared to at around 40°C. I would have to test specifically at what temp it begins to worsen gradually.


----------



## asdkj1740

https://www.chiphell.com/thread-1959959-1-1.html

toppc lin explains why msi has the 100.8 bclk settings instead of 100.
it is triggered when users have 2 sticks of ddr4 installed and xmp is enabled.
100.8 bclk helps 2 sticks ddr4 oc higher when xmp is enabled. 
msi though lots of users wont tweak the small timings settings so msi set 100.8 bclk to help general users to oc higher without messing with those timings.
but now msi is going to disable this feature by default in the new coming bios.

"順便解釋一下 BCLK 100.8
這是為了突顯在開啟XMP情況下
一般市售的內存
在只插兩根時...可以超比較高
所以會自動微加0.8 BCLK(當時沒料到..大陸這邊.手動超的人還真不少)
不喜歡的人可以手調100.6或99.98
GODLIKE 1.6x的BIOS我會加入選項.讓大家選擇是否跑100.8
(1.5版已經來不及加了)"

i remember toppc said nowadays tweaking bclk for cpu oc wont have any benefit over tweaking cpu ratio. so the bclk 100.8 is not for cpu oc / cheating with cpu scores.


----------



## Timur Born

Why are VRM loadline always illustrated the wrong way around? When you increase the loadline you also decrease the Vcore. So to my understanding VRM loadline should rather be illustrated like this (with the peak load on the right side and the base Vcore on the left). The higher the loadline setting the flatter the line and the lower the base Vcore, but the peak load voltage needed for stability doesn't change.


----------



## Falkentyne

Timur Born said:


> Why are VRM loadline always illustrated the wrong way around? When you increase the loadline you also decrease the Vcore. So to my understanding VRM loadline should rather be illustrated like this (with the peak load on the right side and the base Vcore on the left). The higher the loadline setting the flatter the line and the lower the base Vcore, but the peak load voltage needed for stability doesn't change.


Because that's not how it works at all. The peak load voltage (or rather, minimum required voltage for stability) *DOES* change with maximum loadline calibration. It actually goes WAY up.

Also, the graph in bios is based on your exact voltage you are setting and the voltage used at load (although a higher loadline causes more instability at extremely heavy current due to oscillations). 
You graph is talking about hypothetical situations of trying to reduce bios voltage each step to match a set target voltage. That's voodoo thinking there. Plus, reducing the voltage to the highest loadline point will cause extreme instability due to massive fluctuations causing massive dips *BELOW* the voltage being reported--you need an oscilloscope to see this.

Elmor and I have already tested this. Another recent post in the Asus forum and several in the GB section also mentioned instability trying to match on-die sense voltages, even though the temps, amps and power draw line up, the oscillations are wild. Although I wonder if they also go upwards (spikes repeatedly) also...when someone gets an oscilloscope and tests LLC8 / Ultra Extreme with FMA3/AVX small FFT Prime95, then we'll have our answers.

FYI I just finished a test for you here. This is comparing High and Turbo LLC with minimum voltage required for maximum load stability.
Prime95 29.5 build 10.
FFT's in place, 15K custom. FMA3

Minimum required vcore for stability:

LLC6 (Turbo): Bios voltage = 1.195v, MLCC (ITE 8792E) load voltage: 1.191v, VR VOUT load voltage: 1.131V. 184W CPU power (VRM), stable 2 hours. (any lower=random threads crash (usually #7 and #8 first).
LLC5 (High): Bios voltage= 1.225v, MLCC (ITE 8792E) load voltage: 1.155v, VR VOUT load voltage: 1.107V, 172W CPU power (VRM), stable 2 hours. (Temps 5C lower, so the VRM is reporting accurately).


----------



## Timur Born

Falkentyne said:


> Because that's not how it works at all. The peak load voltage (or rather, minimum required voltage for stability) *DOES* change with maximum loadline calibration. It actually goes WAY up.


Not in practice where you decrease Vcore accordingly to how much you increased LLC. That is unless your VCore was too low to begin with, but LLC comparisons only make sense when the peak load voltage is used as a reference anyway. When you need an effective voltage of 1.25v for full P95 FMA3 Small FFT load at minimum LLC then you still need the same voltage at maximum LLC. I am not talking about the voltage value you enter in UEFI, but the voltage happening at the CPU.

When LLC is increased and VCore value is decreased accordingly than you only change effective voltages between idle to medium high load, but you still need to keep the same peak load voltage. I am talking 250w (package power) load close to the current limit of the CPU.

Not to mention that what everyone effectively tries to achieve is exactly that: allow for a high peak voltage while lowering idle to medium high load voltage, in order to get a more flat voltage line. This in turn means that the curves of real CPU voltage turn upside down to what is illustrated in BIOS.

On a side note: Of course overshots and ringing are not illustrated by the straight line curves, but that was not what I wrote about anyway. Personally I am using low LLC settings myself without fear of higher idle voltages. Medium load voltages can be something to optimize, though, or limiting the peak load via TJmax and such.


----------



## Falkentyne

Timur Born said:


> Not in practice where you decrease Vcore accordingly to how much you increased LLC. That is unless your VCore was too low to begin with, but LLC comparisons only make sense when the peak load voltage is used as a reference anyway. When you need an effective voltage of 1.25v for full P95 FMA3 Small FFT load at minimum LLC then you still need the same voltage at maximum LLC. I am not talking about the voltage value you enter in UEFI, but the voltage happening at the CPU.
> 
> When LLC is increased and VCore value is decreased accordingly than you only change effective voltages between idle to medium high load, but you still need to keep the same peak load voltage. I am talking 250w (package power) load close to the current limit of the CPU.
> 
> Not to mention that what everyone effectively tries to achieve is exactly that: allow for a high peak voltage while lowering idle to medium high load voltage, in order to get a more flat voltage line. This in turn means that the curves of real CPU voltage turn upside down to what is illustrated in BIOS.
> 
> On a side note: Of course overshots and ringing are not illustrated by the straight line curves, but that was not what I wrote about anyway. Personally I am using low LLC settings myself without fear of higher idle voltages. Medium load voltages can be something to optimize, though, or limiting the peak load via TJmax and such.


That's exactly what I just said.
You just copied exactly what I said.
Except your conclusion is wrong.

The voltage shown by VR VOUT going to the CPU is an average. it's not live to the microsecond voltage. It's just an average. VRM's can't measure in microseconds. Neither can DMM's that aren't Fluke Scopemeters ($2,000+).
If you INCREASE loadline calibration, you reduce vdroop and increase voltage oscillation. This works at low loads (SSE2, etc) at lower amps, but as the amps goes up, the oscillations get worse. With a 0 mOhm (flat) loadline, when doing FMA3 testing, your voltage could be dropping over 50mv below what is being "sent" To the CPU in microseconds.

Or are you going to say that Elmor, who is an engineer, is also wrong, and thus I'm full of hot air?
I don't like posting people's private messages without permission but since you won't believe anyone except engineers with oscilloscopes....

From Elmor:


> I fired up the my Maximus XI Gene + 9900K to see if I could replicate your behavior.
> 
> Core = 4.7G
> Cache = 4.4G
> 
> P95 29.1 FMA3 Small FFTs 15K
> 
> LLC=6, Vcore set = 1.130V, Vcore read = 1.066V: 1 thread failed after 6 minutes
> LLC=6, Vcore set = 1.140V, Vcore read = 1.074V: pass 20m+
> 
> LLC=8, Vcore set = 1.075V, Vcore read = 1.074V: 1 thread failed after 2 minutes
> LLC=8, Vcore set = 1.085V, Vcore read = 1.083V: 1 thread failed after 4 minutes
> LLC=8, Vcore set = 1.095V, Vcore read = 1.092V: 1 thread failed after 2 minutes
> LLC=8, Vcore set = 1.105V, Vcore read = 1.101V: 1 thread failed after 9 minutes
> LLC=8, Vcore set = 1.115V, Vcore read = 1.110V: 1 thread failed after 6 minutes
> LLC=8, Vcore set = 1.125V, Vcore read = 1.119V: 1 thread failed after 2 minutes
> LLC=8, Vcore set = 1.135V, Vcore read = 1.137V: pass 1h+
> 
> I repeated it again with LLC=6, Vcore set = 1.140V, Vcore read = 1.074V and 1 thread failed after 14 minutes. Probably 10-20mV extra would pass for 1h+.
> 
> This seems even worse than what you reported. One aspect to think of is with higher voltages the temperatures will increase and worsen stability, resulting in even higher voltage required. It would be interesting with a direct comparison with the same CPU/cooling but different boards. I could possibly try to get an Aorus Master next week. I've got a Maximus XI Apex, but I doubt that would perform much better for this specific test case. Primarily the additional VRM components should yield lower VRM temperature.


So, 1.074v LLC6 = 1.137v LLC8 for FMA3 stability. (this was NOT tested with an oscilloscope. Most likely, the LLC8 testing with an oscilloscope would show wild dips despite "average" CPU on-die voltage being 1.137v, dropping down BELOW 1.074v repeatedly (and God knows how much it would be spiking upwards).

I actually finished one more test-JUST for you--before replying here.
LLC High (= LLC5): Vcore set=1.225v, Vcore read: 1.104v, pass 51 min (stopped to reply here and then go play some video games).

Last night:
LLC Turbo (= LLC6): Vcore set=1.195v, Vcore read: 1.131v, pass: 1 hour 52 min (stopped cuz I couldn't deal with my Noctua 3000RPM fans running at 3000 RPM anymore).

This morning:
LLC Turbo (LLC6 on Asus): VCore set: 1.170v, Vcore read: 1.107v, 1 thread failed after 7 minutes.

So, why don't you buy an oscilloscope and check this out for yourself?


----------



## Timur Born

Falkentyne said:


> The voltage shown by VR VOUT going to the CPU is an average. it's not live to the microsecond voltage. It's just an average. VRM's can't measure in microseconds. Neither can DMM's that aren't Fluke Scopemeters ($2,000+).


I know this, but I don't know why you keep repeating this (in several threads)!?

I am not writing about fluctuations. And both spikes and ringing (voltage oscillation) are a matter of voltage changes, not of constant load. When your CPU passes the initial start of a P95 Small FFT run then it passes through the phase you keep writing about. Afterwards it doesn't matter so much and again: This is not what I was asking about anyway, so please either reply about the topic or give others a chance to add input.


----------



## wingman99

Falkentyne said:


> Or are you going to say that Elmor, who is an engineer, is also wrong, and thus I'm full of hot air?
> I don't like posting people's private messages without permission but since you won't believe anyone except engineers with oscilloscopes....


I asked Elmor if he was a engineer in Microelectronics and he said he has his Master's in Microelectronics. So he is not a engineer.


----------



## Timur Born

Falkentyne said:


> Or are you going to say that Elmor, who is an engineer, is also wrong, and thus I'm full of hot air?


This qualifies for its own reply. This kind of "argument" is below the standard of what I am willing to participate in. There were no suggestions of any kind, certainly none that would justify your abuse of Elmor as a potential "victim" of my non-existent offense.

Elmor knows me from the Crosshair VI Hero thread and a few personal messages. I am very sure that he also knows that I am very open to both technical arguments and practical experiments.

All that being said, this all has nothing do to with my original question.

(to Elmor: sorry, I couldn't make good use of the C7H yet, maybe when Zen2 hits the street ).


----------



## Falkentyne

Timur Born said:


> I know this, but I don't know why you keep repeating this (in several threads)!?
> 
> I am not writing about fluctuations. And both spikes and ringing (voltage oscillation) are a matter of voltage changes, not of constant load. When your CPU passes the initial start of a P95 Small FFT run then it passes through the phase you keep writing about. Afterwards it doesn't matter so much and again: This is not what I was asking about anyway, so please either reply about the topic or give others a chance to add input.


Why do you keep completely avoiding the question of why is there instability at a 'higher' true load vcore with higher LLC (more vdroop), than there is with a lower true load vcore, with lower LLC (more vdroop)? And what's up with the personal attacks on me for posting my findings?


----------



## Timur Born

I will not feed this paranoia. You talk about voltages spikes and ringing with changing load, I talk about the illustration of straight lines in one direction or the other for a certain UEFI setting. We could have the other discussion, but I trying to force it on me seems rather rude.


----------



## Robostyle

Guys, what can I look for to replace M10H, for a change? Looking at aorus master...hardware looks fine, but don't know about uefi and all that....
Seems like it would provide me some decent improvements in 8700/9900 OC


----------



## Robostyle

Upd.: Nvmind, I've just found xi apex...


----------



## KedarWolf

Robostyle said:


> Guys, what can I look for to replace M10H, for a change? Looking at aorus master...hardware looks fine, but don't know about uefi and all that....
> Seems like it would provide me some decent improvements in 8700/9900 OC


Getting really great results on a Master. My Maximux X Formula would only do 5GHZ CPU, 4.6GHZ cache and 3900MHZ memory at higher voltages so it's a pretty good upgrade, and a four DIMM board.

https://www.overclock.net/forum/27856838-post2459.html

Edit: Buy a two DIMM board if you're going to go a two DIMM memory kit. Gigabyte and Asus are T-Topology and do better with four sticks rather than two on four DIMM boards.

My Z390 Aorus won't even boot with two sticks in at the same settings I'm RAM test stable with four sticks in, and in my Maximus X Formula on a 8700k, I couldn't even get a two stick 4400 G.Skill kit to run at 4000MHZ stable when my four stick G.Skill 3200 CL14 would run at 4200MHZ.


----------



## Telstar

Falkentyne said:


> Minimum required vcore for stability:
> 
> LLC6 (Turbo): Bios voltage = 1.195v, MLCC (ITE 8792E) load voltage: 1.191v, VR VOUT load voltage: 1.131V. 184W CPU power (VRM), stable 2 hours. (any lower=random threads crash (usually #7 and #8 first).
> 
> LLC5 (High): Bios voltage= 1.225v, MLCC (ITE 8792E) load voltage: 1.155v, VR VOUT load voltage: 1.107V, 172W CPU power (VRM), stable 2 hours. (Temps 5C lower, so the VRM is reporting accurately).


This result is a little strange with a 9900k where llc6 is recommended. Looks like idle voltage may be too low in the first scenario, as it were adaptive.


----------



## Falkentyne

Telstar said:


> This result is a little strange with a 9900k where llc6 is recommended. Looks like idle voltage may be too low in the first scenario, as it were adaptive.


The idle voltage is much higher in the first example with lower LLC. (In my test, the idle voltage was 1.210v with LLC5. 1.190v with LLC6). Remember I'm not using adaptive voltage at all, so idle voltage has nothing to do with this.
It's the load voltage that is the problem. Pay attention to the VR VOUT reading. Do you remember the Anandtech picture which is the same picture Der8auer used in his LLC video? It showed that LLC8 (0 mOhm) had a massive drop below the 'constant' (averaged) voltage.
This issue also only occurs when testing power virus loads like FMA3 prime95. If you were testing SSE2, the current isn't high enough to cause this problem.

Here is a screenshot of my last test.

I tested Ultra Extreme (LLC8) up to 1.165v (idle and load=1.165v) and despite power draw being MUCH higher and temps being MUCH higher, 1.165v eventually dropped threads (1.160v lead to a WHEA uncorrectable error after awhile). And since you can see that the load voltage in the LLC5 (High) test is 1.104v and fully stable, clearly since 1.165v > 1.104v, the idle voltage is irrelevant here.

Only an oscilloscope will show what's happening. But apparently no one has one to test.


----------



## GeneO

Robostyle said:


> Upd.: Nvmind, I've just found xi apex...


That is a different ATX form factor than a Hero.. You may need a different case to fit the eatx.

EDIT: NM, I see the shrunk the Apex XI down to a normal ATX size.


----------



## Telstar

Falkentyne said:


> The idle voltage is much higher in the first example with lower LLC.
> (…)
> Only an oscilloscope will show what's happening. But apparently no one has one to test.


I have an old analogue scope (150Mhz), which I'm not sure would be fast enough for this.

But your post definitely made me decide to try also LLC5.


----------



## Falkentyne

Telstar said:


> I have an old analogue scope (150Mhz), which I'm not sure would be fast enough for this.
> 
> But your post definitely made me decide to try also LLC5.


I know nothing about oscilloscopes (I wanted to buy a Siglent sds1202 but can't afford it), but I know the digital scopes have to be at least 100 mhz and 20ns + sampling (whatever the hell that means).


----------



## Robostyle

I have two 16GB b-die sticks that are barely stable [email protected] Plus, I have feeling bein really screwed up with M10H for it's price while there are motherboards with far more better hardware, with the _same_ pricetag.
All asus z390 boards ATM on the market make me feel the same - however, there was a moment with M11EX going for 450$ (But I still beleive >300$ for motherboard is a crime against humanity), and M11APEX for 390$ now available - and Gigabytes - suggesting from hwluxx tables, I beleive Gigabyte has the most decent VRM of all Z390 motherboards available. Versus MEGs from MSI and Gene/Extreme/Apex from Asus. 
Aaand, so far, Aorus Master is the best motherboard from GB available here. And for me it looks like far superior solution than M10/11H or M10/11F.
Looking at regular z390 maximuses and z390 ASRock just makes me sad.


----------



## Telstar

Falkentyne said:


> I know nothing about oscilloscopes (I wanted to buy a Siglent sds1202 but can't afford it), but I know the digital scopes have to be at least 100 mhz and 20ns + sampling (whatever the hell that means).


I believe that mine should work. I won't be able to use it for a few weeks, but when i can, i'll try.


----------



## bl4ckdot

I'm getting a 9900K next month with direct die cooling. I have the opportunity of changing my motherboard. What would be the best for 4 stick RAM oc between the ROG XI Extreme and the Aorus Xtreme ? 
Also would the Code or Aorus Master be the same for 3600 to 4000Mhz RAM oc (4 sticks) ?

Sorry if it's a bit off topic


----------



## scracy

bl4ckdot said:


> I'm getting a 9900K next month with direct die cooling. I have the opportunity of changing my motherboard. What would be the best for 4 stick RAM oc between the ROG XI Extreme and the Aorus Xtreme ?
> Also would the Code or Aorus Master be the same for 3600 to 4000Mhz RAM oc (4 sticks) ?
> 
> Sorry if it's a bit off topic


Reason for changing motherboard?


----------



## elmor

Timur Born said:


> Why are VRM loadline always illustrated the wrong way around? When you increase the loadline you also decrease the Vcore. So to my understanding VRM loadline should rather be illustrated like this (with the peak load on the right side and the base Vcore on the left). The higher the loadline setting the flatter the line and the lower the base Vcore, but the peak load voltage needed for stability doesn't change.



Can you put axes on the graph? Might make it easier to understand what you mean. Normally it's output voltage (actual, not set) on the y-axis and output current on the x-axis. Depending on your load-line setting, at a certain output current the voltage will be higher or lower. Load-line Calibration is a marketing term and "hides" a corresponding load-line value in mOhm (milliohm). A higher Load-line Calibration Level on Asus boards means a lower load-line value and less droop. The droop is calculated as Vdroop = Iout*loadline. For example 100A*0.5mOhm = 50mV below the set voltage.



Telstar said:


> I have an old analogue scope (150Mhz), which I'm not sure would be fast enough for this.
> 
> But your post definitely made me decide to try also LLC5.





Falkentyne said:


> I know nothing about oscilloscopes (I wanted to buy a Siglent sds1202 but can't afford it), but I know the digital scopes have to be at least 100 mhz and 20ns + sampling (whatever the hell that means).



Something around 20-50 Msps and 50-100 MHz bandwidth should work. More than 8-bit vertical resolution would also be good but it's expensive. The difficult part is not getting a scope it's getting good readings without noise.



bl4ckdot said:


> I'm getting a 9900K next month with direct die cooling. I have the opportunity of changing my motherboard. What would be the best for 4 stick RAM oc between the ROG XI Extreme and the Aorus Xtreme ?
> Also would the Code or Aorus Master be the same for 3600 to 4000Mhz RAM oc (4 sticks) ?
> 
> Sorry if it's a bit off topic



All Maximus XI 4-DIMM boards should perform similarly in terms of memory speed. I'd recommend you to compare the QVLs, it should be indicative of its capability.

http://download.gigabyte.asia/FileList/Memory/mb_memory_z390-aorus-xtreme_181205.pdf
https://dlcdnets.asus.com/pub/ASUS/.../Memory_QVL_ROG_MAXIMUS_XI_EXTREME_190218.pdf

Aorus Z390 Xtreme

4333 MHz - 1x kit 4x8GB
4266 MHz - 1x kit 4x8GB
4133 MHz - 2x kit 4x8GB
4000 MHz - 9x kit 4x8GB
3866 Mhz - 7x kit 4x8GB, 9x kit 2x8GB

ROG Maximus XI Extreme

4400 MHz - 4x kit 4x8GB, 3x kit 2x8GB
4266 MHz - 11x kit 4x8GB
4133 MHz - 15x kit 4x8GB, 24x kit 2x8GB
4000 MHz - 16x kit 4x8GB, 1x kit 4x4GB, 25x kit 2x8GB, 1x kit 2x4GB
3866 MHz - 7x kit 4x8GB, 4x kit 4x4GB, 9x kit 2x8GB, 7x kit 2x4GB


----------



## bl4ckdot

scracy said:


> Reason for changing motherboard?


A friend want it and I'm not using a custom loop with the Formula sooo yeah. This is a good opportunity for me to go with a z390 board.


----------



## scracy

bl4ckdot said:


> A friend want it and I'm not using a custom loop with the Formula sooo yeah. This is a good opportunity for me to go with a z390 board.


Fair enough, from using your 9900K with MXF overclocking point of view you wouldn't have any issues,at least I haven't


----------



## Telstar

elmor said:


> Something around 20-50 Msps and 50-100 MHz bandwidth should work. More than 8-bit vertical resolution would also be good but it's expensive. The difficult part is not getting a scope it's getting good readings without noise.


Analog scopes are different, meaning that resolution is not in bits. I'm not sure abut the MSPS figure if that applies. It is a Tektronix or an HP/Agilent, I dont remember, which was 500$ second hand ad something like 3k when new thirty years ago.
My friend uses it to test audio equipment and to get the same performance with a digital scope the specs needs to be high.
What it cannot do is record data or save screenshots, I would need to take a video, but I'm pretty positive that any spikes would be visible.


----------



## Timur Born

elmor said:


> Can you put axes on the graph? Might make it easier to understand what you mean. Normally it's output voltage (actual, not set) on the y-axis and output current on the x-axis.


Thanks for joining in. The missing axes are a problem with BIOS illustrations as well, usually those say VCore  vs. "CPU Load(ing)" (x), not necessarily current on the x-axis. So I would say that "CPU load" makes sense on my upside-down graph as well, which usually also corresponds to current, though.



> Depending on your load-line setting, at a certain output current the voltage will be higher or lower. Load-line Calibration is a marketing term and "hides" a corresponding load-line value in mOhm (milliohm). A higher Load-line Calibration Level on Asus boards means a lower load-line value and less droop. The droop is calculated as Vdroop = Iout*loadline. For example 100A*0.5mOhm = 50mV below the set voltage.


I understand, but still find the graph at least counter-productive, because it suggest that something is "added" or increased compared to lower LLC settings. It even suggest that lower LLC settings are flatter, while in practice the opposite is the case.


----------



## AlphaC

Overclockers was able to overclock the Z390 Extreme4 , but the power consumption numbers are still concerning:
https://www.overclockers.com/asrock-z390-extreme-4-motherboard-review-priceperformance-king-again/


> Overclocking on this motherboard was simple and straightforward as expected. We cranked all the power and current limits started at 5 GHz and pushed up to the limits of our cooling. The board did have some vdroop with it when under load with the system set to auto (mode 4 is default). Adjusting this to LLC 1 will yield the least amount of vdroop. In this case, setting it to LLC1 still had a bit of droop, we set 1.33 V in the BIOS and under load ended up at 1.312 V. I prefer it to be exact (and have headroom for ‘vraise), but even cranked it wouldn’t quite match.


----------



## Falkentyne

elmor said:


> Can you put axes on the graph? Might make it easier to understand what you mean. Normally it's output voltage (actual, not set) on the y-axis and output current on the x-axis. Depending on your load-line setting, at a certain output current the voltage will be higher or lower. Load-line Calibration is a marketing term and "hides" a corresponding load-line value in mOhm (milliohm). A higher Load-line Calibration Level on Asus boards means a lower load-line value and less droop. The droop is calculated as Vdroop = Iout*loadline. For example 100A*0.5mOhm = 50mV below the set voltage.
> 
> Something around 20-50 Msps and 50-100 MHz bandwidth should work. More than 8-bit vertical resolution would also be good but it's expensive. The difficult part is not getting a scope it's getting good readings without noise.
> 
> All Maximus XI 4-DIMM boards should perform similarly in terms of memory speed. I'd recommend you to compare the QVLs, it should be indicative of its capability.
> 
> http://download.gigabyte.asia/FileList/Memory/mb_memory_z390-aorus-xtreme_181205.pdf
> https://dlcdnets.asus.com/pub/ASUS/.../Memory_QVL_ROG_MAXIMUS_XI_EXTREME_190218.pdf
> 
> Aorus Z390 Xtreme
> 
> 4333 MHz - 1x kit 4x8GB
> 4266 MHz - 1x kit 4x8GB
> 4133 MHz - 2x kit 4x8GB
> 4000 MHz - 9x kit 4x8GB
> 3866 Mhz - 7x kit 4x8GB, 9x kit 2x8GB
> 
> ROG Maximus XI Extreme
> 
> 4400 MHz - 4x kit 4x8GB, 3x kit 2x8GB
> 4266 MHz - 11x kit 4x8GB
> 4133 MHz - 15x kit 4x8GB, 24x kit 2x8GB
> 4000 MHz - 16x kit 4x8GB, 1x kit 4x4GB, 25x kit 2x8GB, 1x kit 2x4GB
> 3866 MHz - 7x kit 4x8GB, 4x kit 4x4GB, 9x kit 2x8GB, 7x kit 2x4GB


While we're on the subject of loadline, just finished 2 tests using my entire morning (couldn't play any video games, sigh 
Hopefully the Analog scope will help tell us whats going on with the voltage stability. @Telstar Thank you! 

4.7 ghz, Ring x44
LLC5 (High LLC), Bios set: 1.230v, VR VOUT: 1.107v, FMA3 15K in place fixed prime95 (29.5 build 10): 2 hours stable. (max IOUT: 157 amps, 87C max). Any lower=random chance of a thread crashing in <2 hours
LLC6 (Turbo LLC),Bios set: 1.195v, VR VOUT: 1.131v, FMA3 15K in place fixed prime95 (29.5 build 10): 2 hours stable (max IOUT: 162 amps, 90C max). Any lower=random chance of a thread crashing in <2 hours

Attempting to use LLC6 (turbo) with bios : 1.170v (VR VOUT: 1.109v) results in threads 7/8 or 11/12 (or 7/8 and 11/12 at the same time!) crashing in less than 10 minutes
So Higher vdroop LLC needs 1.107v, while less vdroop needs 1.131v for the same stability, despite temps and power draw being hotter from the higher "average" target VR VOUT.

Has to be voltage fluctuations causing this. The oscilloscope test will get to the bottom of this.
(Most obvious will be LLC8. Attempting to even do LLC8 (Ultra Extreme) at 1.10v Bios set->1.10v VR VOUT, FMA3 15K fixed in place --> almost IMMEDIATE "Clock Watchdog Timeout" or WHEA Uncorrectable error).


----------



## elmor

Telstar said:


> Analog scopes are different, meaning that resolution is not in bits. I'm not sure abut the MSPS figure if that applies. It is a Tektronix or an HP/Agilent, I dont remember, which was 500$ second hand ad something like 3k when new thirty years ago.
> My friend uses it to test audio equipment and to get the same performance with a digital scope the specs needs to be high.
> What it cannot do is record data or save screenshots, I would need to take a video, but I'm pretty positive that any spikes would be visible.



Sure, go by the bandwidth spec with an analog scope.



Timur Born said:


> Thanks for joining in. The missing axes are a problem with BIOS illustrations as well, usually those say VCore  vs. "CPU Load(ing)" (x), not necessarily current on the x-axis. So I would say that "CPU load" makes sense on my upside-down graph as well, which usually also corresponds to current, though.
> 
> 
> I understand, but still find the graph at least counter-productive, because it suggest that something is "added" or increased compared to lower LLC settings. It even suggest that lower LLC settings are flatter, while in practice the opposite is the case.



CPU Loading = Output current, the re-naming seems like a bad attempt at making it easier to understand. Saying higher/lower LLC is adding to the confusion since lower LLC Level on Asus = higher load-line, while a lower LLC Level on Asrock = lower load-line. It's preferred to either specify higher/lower load-line or droop as that can't be misunderstood. Have a look at this spreadsheet: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1GhkqMoHXghe-0voNaru0bMFxalL3o9AscM-kA9ivceA/edit?usp=sharing . Hopefully it will make it easier to understand what you mean, you can edit the values, see the calculations etc.

The example uses 1.2V as the set point. 0mohm load-line would be equivalent to LLC = Level 8 on Asus Z390 boards.


----------



## encrypted11

Wish there was a rep button! :thumb:


----------



## kignt

Mobo manuf should use ohms as unit of measure for llc instead of "llc level"


----------



## Falkentyne

kignt said:


> Mobo manuf should use ohms as unit of measure for llc instead of "llc level"


Plus if you see my previous posts, higher LLC level (lower mOhms of resistance) causes much higher voltage oscillations (and thus instability) at *high* currents (like FMA3 small FFT (4k-20K in prime95 29.6 build 2). Hopefully the oscilloscope testing will shed some light on this!

https://mersenneforum.org/showthread.php?t=24094


----------



## EggoEleven

Hi does anyone know if the vrm temps would be okay on a strix z390-i motherboard if I remove the i/o shield/heatsink? I need to remove it due to a compatibility issue with a air cooler. Also the board would be running a stock 8700K.


----------



## Robostyle

I'm looking at vrm list, maximus xi extreme having cheap doubled 5 phases, and aorus master and extreme with 6 and 8 respectively, with both gigabytes being cheaper than asus - and don't get it. What's the "thing" about all this?


----------



## wingman99

Robostyle said:


> I'm looking at vrm list, maximus xi extreme having cheap doubled 5 phases, and aorus master and extreme with 6 and 8 respectively, with both gigabytes being cheaper than asus - and don't get it. What's the "thing" about all this?


Gigabyte just makes a better VRM.


----------



## Telstar

double post sorry


----------



## Telstar

Robostyle said:


> I'm looking at vrm list, maximus xi extreme having cheap doubled 5 phases, and aorus master and extreme with 6 and 8 respectively, with both gigabytes being cheaper than asus - and don't get it. What's the "thing" about all this?


They are not "cheap": extreme and gene are good 5 phases with doubled inductors, they have good components but not phase doublers, therefore are less efficient than Aorus configurations, that are the best of the z390 boards (comparing price by price). Asus said that this reduces current spikes.


----------



## Robostyle

Aorus have inductors doubled aswell. Or doubled signal?
I didn’t meant cheap materials, not at all, they are good - That was just about describing “approach”.

So, in the end, its just all about asus willing to save more than others...Nothing wrong, but imho M10H was the product that haven’t satisfied me 100%, and Im not chiller/LN OC kind.


----------



## GRat

I know the discussion is centered around the 9900k but I was thinking of building a system in a Corsair 280X so I was wondering how the iTX bunch of the Z390 would fair with a 9600K.

Ideally I would like to be able to overclock, but I would not want to go over 1.35V on the vcore to get ~4.9Ghz.
So if my math is correct then..

OC Wattage = TDP * ( OC MHz / Stock MHz) * ( OC Vcore / Stock Vcore )²
= 95 * (4900/3700) * (1.35/1.1)²
= 95 * 1.324 * 1.506 
= 189Watt

That's 140Amps let's say 154A @90% efficiency.

The Asus one seems to be the only one that has cooling on the top portion of the VRMs, the Gigabyte and the Asrock ones don't.
Will any of these be able to handle an OC on the 9600K?

**EDIT**

Just realised there is the ROG MAXIMUS XI Gene too that should be more than sufficient..


----------



## Telstar

Robostyle said:


> Aorus have inductors doubled aswell. Or doubled signal?


The other vendors have also put phase doublers. The real issue with Asus z390 ROG boards was the marketing.
It's quite a long time for me that I dont have a ROG board and the Gene will look stellar in my new build so it was a no-brainer. Besides that and the Apex the other ROG boards are overpriced as fck - that is a legitimate complaint, but no, they dont have cheap components, just lack phase doublers (with the one pro and many cons of the case).


----------



## Telstar

GRat said:


> I know the discussion is centered around the 9900k but I was thinking of building a system in a Corsair 280X so I was wondering how the iTX bunch of the Z390 would fair with a 9600K.
> 
> Ideally I would like to be able to overclock, but I would not want to go over 1.35V on the vcore to get ~4.9Ghz.
> So if my math is correct then..
> 
> OC Wattage = TDP * ( OC MHz / Stock MHz) * ( OC Vcore / Stock Vcore )²
> = 95 * (4900/3700) * (1.35/1.1)²
> = 95 * 1.324 * 1.506
> = 189Watt
> 
> **EDIT**
> 
> Just realised there is the ROG MAXIMUS XI Gene too that should be more than sufficient..


The Gene is perfectly fine for 250W+ power, that is it can keep a 9900k @[email protected] 
If you can find it in your region and are willing to pay the price (around 320€), it's a better choice than any z390 ITX currently on the market. The strix WILL be sufficient in your case, being rated for 200W in AlphaC table.


----------



## Raghar

Falkentyne said:


> That's exactly what I just said.
> You just copied exactly what I said.
> Except your conclusion is wrong.
> 
> The voltage shown by VR VOUT going to the CPU is an average. it's not live to the microsecond voltage. It's just an average. VRM's can't measure in microseconds. Neither can DMM's that aren't Fluke Scopemeters ($2,000+).
> If you INCREASE loadline calibration, you reduce vdroop and increase voltage oscillation. This works at low loads (SSE2, etc) at lower amps, but as the amps goes up, the oscillations get worse. With a 0 mOhm (flat) loadline, when doing FMA3 testing, your voltage could be dropping over 50mv below what is being "sent" To the CPU in microseconds.


When I do overclocking, I keep loadline at 0. Either I can get 24/7 7 year stable overclock, or I do slower overclock, even when it would be under max turbo set by manufacturer.

I use loadline when I do underclocking to protect against downward voltage spikes. (Actually I learned about rule n. 1. in underclocking, don't use adaptive voltage with too low underclock, CPU don't expect that and can do NASTY surprise. You need to test adaptive voltage behavior when frequency is set borderline, and with LLC as an additional protection. I assume voltage oscillation mostly increases upward. )


----------



## AlphaC

GRat said:


> I know the discussion is centered around the 9900k but I was thinking of building a system in a Corsair 280X so I was wondering how the iTX bunch of the Z390 would fair with a 9600K.
> 
> Ideally I would like to be able to overclock, but I would not want to go over 1.35V on the vcore to get ~4.9Ghz.
> So if my math is correct then..
> 
> OC Wattage = TDP * ( OC MHz / Stock MHz) * ( OC Vcore / Stock Vcore )²
> = 95 * (4900/3700) * (1.35/1.1)²
> = 95 * 1.324 * 1.506
> = 189Watt
> 
> That's 140Amps let's say 154A @90% efficiency.
> 
> The Asus one seems to be the only one that has cooling on the top portion of the VRMs, the Gigabyte and the Asrock ones don't.
> Will any of these be able to handle an OC on the 9600K?
> 
> **EDIT**
> 
> Just realised there is the ROG MAXIMUS XI Gene too that should be more than sufficient..


Top part of Asrock VRM is for iGPU, so it only matters if you're pushing absurd power through the Intel iGPU. The Asrock Phantom ITX VRM is the best for ITX form factor and it comes with Thunderbolt built in, if you can get a Maximus XI Gene it will likely be better but at a cost of space (board size) and also cost (especially if you need to import it).


----------



## GRat

Thanks for the input, I plan on disabling the igpu anyway!


----------



## Kaltenbrunner

bl4ckdot said:


> A friend want it and I'm not using a custom loop with the Formula sooo yeah. This is a good opportunity for me to go with a z390 board.


Aside from 9th gen out-of-box support, what's different with z390 vs z370 ?

I have a MSI z370 Krait gaming, very similar to the Carbon Pro. When I was OCing my i5-9600k wrongly, way too much voltage, upto 1.39 in BIOS, my MOSFET sensor still never went over ~65C iirc. I hope that's the real temp, right on the MOSFET's, maybe it's just the average heatsink temp. IDK. Anyone really know where the MOSFET sensor is on their mobo ?


----------



## bl4ckdot

Kaltenbrunner said:


> Aside from 9th gen out-of-box support, what's different with z390 vs z370 ?
> 
> I have a MSI z370 Krait gaming, very similar to the Carbon Pro. When I was OCing my i5-9600k wrongly, way too much voltage, upto 1.39 in BIOS, my MOSFET sensor still never went over ~65C iirc. I hope that's the real temp, right on the MOSFET's, maybe it's just the average heatsink temp. IDK. Anyone really know where the MOSFET sensor is on their mobo ?


Not much difference, but I wasn't seeing myself get a new Z370 board in 2019 ^^. I got the Maximus XI Extreme in the end. For your case, I don't know much about MSI


----------



## asdkj1740

https://www.gigabyte.com/Motherboard/Z390-M-rev-10#kf
this new model looks good

dual m.2
alc892 (7.1)
intel lan
nice heatsink but 4+2 only
4 ram slots
type c on the back io but it is gen 1 only


btw recently z390 gaming sli has new caps that seems to be japan ncc caps instead of tawanese apaq caps in the past.


----------



## Telstar

Kaltenbrunner said:


> Aside from 9th gen out-of-box support, what's different with z390 vs z370 ?


Native intel usb3 gen2 port, usually better VRM.


----------



## Grisk

AlphaC said:


> * There's a $10-15 premium from the Aorus Elite to the Aorus Pro. The Aorus Elite lacks a heatpipe at the VRM heatsink, is using Apaq Taiwanese capacitors rather than Japanese FP caps, has lower number of fan headers, and also lacks USB 3.1 gen 2 type C at the rear panel. I don't feel that going $10-15 cheaper is worth it for this reason.


Hi. Could you tell please where you get the info about capacitors from?


----------



## AlphaC

Grisk said:


> Hi. Could you tell please where you get the info about capacitors from?


 By reading them off the capacitors in the images on all the reviews and the official sites.


You can use fc2 as a reference.


http://capacitor.web.fc2.com/


Apaq site : http://www.apaq.com.tw/en/product


If it's how to read capacitor:
https://www.engineering.com/Electro...6388/How-to-Interpret-Capacitor-Markings.aspx

https://learn.sparkfun.com/tutorials/capacitor-kit-identification-guide/all
https://www.buildcircuit.com/capacitors/


----------



## Grisk

*AlphaC*
Thanks!


----------



## Timur Born

elmor said:


> CPU Loading = Output current, the re-naming seems like a bad attempt at making it easier to understand. Saying higher/lower LLC is adding to the confusion since lower LLC Level on Asus = higher load-line, while a lower LLC Level on Asrock = lower load-line. It's preferred to either specify higher/lower load-line or droop as that can't be misunderstood.


Sorry for answering late, we just moved.

Yes, the whole load-line nomenclature seems unnecessarily convoluted. Thanks for sharing information that clarifies some things to end-users.

The whole ringing (voltage oscillation) part doesn't seem to be grasped by everyone, especially how it can affect stability. Falkentyne keeps firing at us that you found out about ringing also happening at constant (high) load, not only when load changes happen?! How relevant are is the delta of over-/undershot at constant loads in practice then?


----------



## Timur Born

Falkentyne said:


> The voltage shown by VR VOUT going to the CPU is an average.


Even worse, it uses a very coarse binning that even allows 0 V (zero) to be measured.



> it's not live to the microsecond voltage. It's just an average. VRM's can't measure in microseconds. Neither can DMM's that aren't Fluke Scopemeters ($2,000+).


Here is what my $600 Fluke 289 lists in that regard:

"Response time is the length of time an input must stay at a new value to be captured as a possible new minimum or maximum value. The Meter has a 100 millisecond MIN MAX response time. For example, a surge lasting *100 milliseconds* would be captured but one lasting only 50 milliseconds may not be captured at its actual peak value."


----------



## Timur Born

That being said: Some multimeters offer a "Peak" function that is different from Min/Max and offers faster response times in the microsecond range! Here is what the Fluke 289 manual says:

"Peak record is almost the same as MIN MAX record explained earlier in this manual. The significant difference between the two recording functions is the shorter response time for peak recording: *250 μs*. With this short response time, the actual peak values of a sinusoidal signal are measurable. Transients are more accurately measured using the peak record feature. "


----------



## elmor

Timur Born said:


> Sorry for answering late, we just moved.
> 
> Yes, the whole load-line nomenclature seems unnecessarily convoluted. Thanks for sharing information that clarifies some things to end-users.
> 
> The whole ringing (voltage oscillation) part doesn't seem to be grasped by everyone, especially how it can affect stability. Falkentyne keeps firing at us that you found out about ringing also happening at constant (high) load, not only when load changes happen?! How relevant are is the delta of over-/undershot at constant loads in practice then?



No problem. I'm guessing what was meant there was that even though you're running a seemingly constant load when measured as an average (which is what's provided from the VRM controller), there are still load variations when looking at smaller time scales which will case over/undershoot and oscillations. Interrupts triggering, OS tasks etc will play a part. The benchmark itself will also use a wide variance of instructions even if they're just for time keeping or similar which will vary in how many transistors are switched at the same time.

The testing that was done showed that you lose stability when using a lower load-line and trying to match the load-voltage by significant amounts, indicating that the regulation is more out of bounds than one would imagine. I've been looking at compiling more comprehensive data on these tests.



Timur Born said:


> Even worse, it uses a very coarse binning that even allows 0 V (zero) to be measured.
> 
> 
> Here is what my $600 Fluke 289 lists in that regard:
> 
> "Response time is the length of time an input must stay at a new value to be captured as a possible new minimum or maximum value. The Meter has a 100 millisecond MIN MAX response time. For example, a surge lasting *100 milliseconds* would be captured but one lasting only 50 milliseconds may not be captured at its actual peak value."





Timur Born said:


> That being said: Some multimeters offer a "Peak" function that is different from Min/Max and offers faster response times in the microsecond range! Here is what the Fluke 289 manual says:
> 
> "Peak record is almost the same as MIN MAX record explained earlier in this manual. The significant difference between the two recording functions is the shorter response time for peak recording: *250 μs*. With this short response time, the actual peak values of a sinusoidal signal are measurable. Transients are more accurately measured using the peak record feature. "



That's a very nice meter  Theoretically to see the effects of the VRM controller regulation, you'd want to have a resolution of at least half of the switching period. The switching period (one pulse to the driver mosfet + dead time) would be Tsw = 1/fsw = 1/(500 KHz) = 2µs. That would mean at least 1µs resolution would be recommended to prevent aliasing (Nyquist theorem), or a scope with 1Msps. Something like 10-20 Msps would show 10-20 points per cycle.

If you check my post here, you see that the overshoot recorded is during a few µs, each div is 50µs. 

https://www.overclock.net/forum/6-i...90-vrm-discussion-thread-95.html#post27807406


----------



## Telstar

I have min/max reading on my Keithley but I cant find the update interval.


----------



## asdkj1740

http://www.coolpc.com.tw/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=70&t=256579
what a shame gigabyte decides to cut one high side mosfet for each of four vcore phases, just like what they have done on its b450 line up. and the cheapest z370 from gigabyte has 2 high sides + 2 low sides mosfets for each of 4 vcore phases. 
as far as i know this z390 m is not significant cheaper than z390 ud.
anyways z390 m comes with very strong features like intel lan and alc892 7.1 audio and wifi slot and 3 system fan headers.
btw gigabyte again messes up their naming scheme..z390m gaming and z390 m are confusing.


----------



## Pings

Hey what is the best ITX board for the i9 9900K?


----------



## Abula

Pings said:


> Hey what is the best ITX board for the i9 9900K?


 ASRock Z390 PHANTOM GAMING-ITX/AC


----------



## encoreAC

Hello everyone! 

I am planning to order a MSI MPG Z390 GAMING EDGE AC motherboard which I plan to pair with a 9700k CPU with a 5+ Ghz overclock and 16GB Corsair Vengeance 3000MHz 16CL DDR4 RAM.

I know that Gigabyte boards offer better VRMs in this pricerange but I really don't trust their software/bios which for me is a very important aspect of a mobo too, especially the reliability of the fan control.

What do you guys think of the Z390 boards of MSI, maybe in comparison to the Asus Prime Z390-A. (Both are the same price)

I would appreciate some advice or general opinions regarding MSI (VRM, bios, reliability, customer service) since it would be my first board from this brand!


----------



## KedarWolf

encoreAC said:


> Hello everyone!
> 
> I am planning to order a MSI MPG Z390 GAMING EDGE AC motherboard which I plan to pair with a 9700k CPU with a 5+ Ghz overclock and 16GB Corsair Vengeance 3000MHz 16CL DDR4 RAM.
> 
> I know that Gigabyte boards offer better VRMs in this pricerange but I really don't trust their software/bios which for me is a very important aspect of a mobo too, especially the reliability of the fan control.
> 
> What do you guys think of the Z390 boards of MSI, maybe in comparison to the Asus Prime Z390-A. (Both are the same price)
> 
> I would appreciate some advice or general opinions regarding MSI (VRM, bios, reliability, customer service) since it would be my first board from this brand!


I kinda like the Gigabyte BIOS after getting to know it and the fan control is fine once you figure out which sensor it uses. 

And this coming from a long line of Asus motherboards.


----------



## encoreAC

KedarWolf said:


> I kinda like the Gigabyte BIOS after getting to know it and the fan control is fine once you figure out which sensor it uses.
> 
> And this coming from a long line of Asus motherboards.


Thank you for your answer!

I am kinda burned by my current Gigabyte board which is admittedly very old and the Gigabyte RTX 2070 Gaming OC GPU I had which both have very questionable fan control and general software quality. Imo Gigabyte can offer some great hardware but the software aspect is lacking in the products of this brand.

Maybe it's just me having bad luck with them but I would like to try something different this time.


----------



## VeritronX

Honestly no matter which board you use the software controls should be avoided, it's too hard to tell when a problem is being caused by a program you just installed or the mobo control software becoming temporarily unhappy for some reason.


----------



## tostitobandito

Yeah, avoid things like Asus AI Suite like the plague. If you can control something like a case fan in the BIOS, do it in the BIOS.


----------



## w00dstock

need a little help for choosing what mobo for i5 9600k clocked to atleast 4.8ghz 24/7 stable + nh d15 or corsair h100 240 rad with ml fans with 16 gigs of memory @ 3200mhz. Also any form factor is fine and budget under 230 bucks

P.S can the MSI MPG Z390M Gaming Edge AC handle the 9600k at 5ghz ? how are the vrms ?


----------



## itskerby

Hello all, I'm planning a 9900k upgrade, I'm on an MSI Z390 Tomahawk now and planning to upgrade, but not sure what direction to go. Is the EVGA Z370 Classified K a good buy? They can be had pretty cheap, but I'm not sure how they measure up.

Other than that I've gathered that Gigabyte is the go-to for VRM's, but I have a Z390 GB mATX board and really don't love the BIOS. And with the disappointing VRM on the Max XI Hero, the Asus BIOS has priced itself out for me. Just looking to stay away from the $500+ boards without hamstringing my OC potential, do I go with the Aorus Master or can the Taichi or MSI Ace get close enough to be worth considering? Or the EVGA FTW?

Thanks! Thread has been a wealth of knowledge, you guys are doing great work


----------



## sipooo

Hello all, i've been trying to find the solution to my problem by reading trough the comments but i could not find it.

I own a Aorus Z390 Master and have problems with coilwhine noise.
First i had coilwhine when on idle, so i disabled all the C-States and now that fixed the idle problem. Its reduced enough that i dont hear it, it doesnt bother me but its still there not gone fully if you really put your ear to the case.

So im happy the noise is gone when its on idle but now i found out that even when moving my cursor, the noise appears. And gets more intense if i drag a Google Chrome windows for example.
Has anyone got the same problem, are there any fixes for this?

Here is a small recording when im draging around my Chrome window:
https://instaud.io/3uRx

On the 15th secound i drop the window and it immediately goes away.

Thank you so much.


----------



## Abula

sipooo said:


> Hello all, i've been trying to find the solution to my problem by reading trough the comments but i could not find it.
> 
> I own a Aorus Z390 Master and have problems with coilwhine noise.
> First i had coilwhine when on idle, so i disabled all the C-States and now that fixed the idle problem. Its reduced enough that i dont hear it, it doesnt bother me but its still there not gone fully if you really put your ear to the case.
> 
> So im happy the noise is gone when its on idle but now i found out that even when moving my cursor, the noise appears. And gets more intense if i drag a Google Chrome windows for example.
> Has anyone got the same problem, are there any fixes for this?
> 
> Here is a small recording when im draging around my Chrome window:
> https://instaud.io/3uRx
> 
> On the 15th secound i drop the window and it immediately goes away.
> 
> Thank you so much.


 I had this issue, only way i could fix it was a dedicated sound card, if you don't need multichannel, i would recommend to go with an USB DAC.


----------



## sipooo

Abula said:


> I had this issue, only way i could fix it was a dedicated sound card, if you don't need multichannel, i would recommend to go with an USB DAC.


I have a dedicated sound card "Asus xonar essence stx ii".
How did you do ? I didint understand the fix?


----------



## Abula

sipooo said:


> I have a dedicated sound card "Asus xonar essence stx ii".
> How did you do ? I didint understand the fix?


 My issues were present on the Realtek 1220, once i used my Omega eClaro i didn't have the noise issues, although in certain games under certain fps i do get a very mild static but its really hard to hear it. Try another PCIe slot with STX.


----------



## encoreAC

Coilwhine is almost impossible to fix from my experience.


----------



## sipooo

Abula said:


> My issues were present on the Realtek 1220, once i used my Omega eClaro i didn't have the noise issues, although in certain games under certain fps i do get a very mild static but its really hard to hear it. Try another PCIe slot with STX.


I tried to Disable the STX trought the Sound Properties and Device Manager, didint do any difference. You think the problem is coming from the Dedi Sound card?
Ive also noticed this type of noise when doing a speedtest on internet...


----------



## Abula

sipooo said:


> I tried to Disable the STX trought the Sound Properties and Device Manager, didint do any difference. You think the problem is coming from the Dedi Sound card?
> Ive also noticed this type of noise when doing a speedtest on internet...


 I dont think its the dedi sound card, try re seatating all your PCIe cards, gpus, sound cards, capture cards, i would even try re mounting the motherboard, many might think this might be a waste of time, but on a previous build on AsRock Z370 Taichi, i had the static even with the eClaro, but i dissemble the build and tested on my bench and no issues, so i reassemble and all work out, not saying this could fix it, i did on my past build, but then again everything is different so its unlikely, but in case you have the time.

Have you tried an USB DAC, this might an option, its another sound device in your device manager, many including me have bypass issues like this with a DAC.


----------



## sipooo

Abula said:


> I dont think its the dedi sound card, try re seatating all your PCIe cards, gpus, sound cards, capture cards, i would even try re mounting the motherboard, many might think this might be a waste of time, but on a previous build on AsRock Z370 Taichi, i had the static even with the eClaro, but i dissemble the build and tested on my bench and no issues, so i reassemble and all work out, not saying this could fix it, i did on my past build, but then again everything is different so its unlikely, but in case you have the time.
> 
> Have you tried an USB DAC, this might an option, its another sound device in your device manager, many including me have bypass issues like this with a DAC.


No i have not tried, and honestly dont feel like unmounting the hole pc. But i could try to buy a USB DAC, does it matter which one, or can i take whatever cheapest?

Could you look if any of those is suitable? https://classic.prisjakt.nu/kategori.php?b=602&o=produkt_pris_inkmoms

What about RMA the Motherboard, will they accept it as a defect? Has anybode else RMA it ?


----------



## none77

Hi
What is the IR35201 PWM controller max output current?
I couldn't find it in datasheet.
https://www.infineon.com/dgdl/Infin...N.pdf?fileId=5546d462576f347501579c95d19772b5
in the ISL69138 you can find it.
https://www.renesas.com/kr/en/produ...l-multiphase-controllers/device/ISL69138.html

Thanks


----------



## wingman99

none77 said:


> Hi
> What is the IR35201 PWM controller max output current?
> I couldn't find it in datasheet.
> https://www.infineon.com/dgdl/Infin...N.pdf?fileId=5546d462576f347501579c95d19772b5
> in the ISL69138 you can find it.
> https://www.renesas.com/kr/en/produ...l-multiphase-controllers/device/ISL69138.html
> 
> Thanks


Controllers only send working Pulse width modulation (PWM) signal voltage to control the high, low MOSFET or a power MOSFET. The MOSFET is what delivers the AMPS+Volts to the processors. 

Pulse-width modulation LINK: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pulse-width_modulation

MOSFET LINK: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MOSFET


----------



## none77

Thank you for your answer.
I know that the choke, mosfet, capacitor are deal with the power delivery.
https://en.wikichip.org/wiki/voltage_regulator_module
What is the 450A output current in the ISL69138 controller?


----------



## Wirerat

After much research, I went with the aorus pro (non wifi) for my 9900k + 3000mhz cl 15 ram. The vrms run cool all the time 55-60c. 

I was concerned about the bios since I mainly have used asus mobos through the years. I followed the guide posted by gigabyte. I have 5ghz 1.31v no offsets w/xmp enabled. Bios was easy to learn. 

I am impressed by the mobo for the price $170.


----------



## asdkj1740

https://youtu.be/mhHVOxZvDhI?t=48
Steel Legend Z390
UP9521 
SM4337+SM4336

UP9521 is a 4+3 max pwm controller without bulit-in driver, and there are three litter ic on the vcore side but no mention on that, so the vcore vrm could be doubled 6 phases or 3 big phases.

the point is that, 90w power draw and 84c mosfet temp is not good....
9900k "stock" without turboboost is meaningless.
fan is a must for this entry level z390 to work for 9900k at practical stock state namely 4.7g all core boost.

2 internal usb3.0 19pin header at this price tag could be a waste.


----------



## toncij

Now after a while, can someone point out which board should behave better with high memory settins (4,266 4xDIMM) and 9900K at 5.0+. Asus Extreme or Aorus Extreme? Seems that both boards offer good VRMs, Aorus having allegedly worse memory behavior?


----------



## Cerax

Hi i want to order The gigabyte z390 PRO (NO WIFI) and i have this ram CMK16GX4M2B3200C16. I noticed its not on the qvl but its on the qvl of the wifi version. Do u think the ram will work fine?


----------



## BIOSbreaker

toncij said:


> Now after a while, can someone point out which board should behave better with high memory settins (4,266 4xDIMM) and 9900K at 5.0+. Asus Extreme or Aorus Extreme? Seems that both boards offer good VRMs, Aorus having allegedly worse memory behavior?


Take a look at Buildzoid's video below explaining in how the vendors configure it behind the scenes:


Spoiler











from what I understood the Gigabyte has T-Topology that will have better 4-DIMM capability, whereas Asus has the other way around (Daisy Chain) preferring one channel populated with shortest path to the IMC. He even managed to OC mem to 4533MHz on the Master.


Spoiler











Also from my experience, it will depend on how lucky you got in silicon lottery regarding Uncore. Once I OC'd my CPU and memory (3333CL16 2T -> 3600CL16 1T), I needed to tone down to 46 because 47 was unstable. Then I found out I was unstable on 46 even with basic [email protected] (or maybe I could have given 0,25-0,5V more for VCCIO and VCCSA but well too late for that ). Going down by 2 on the Uncore cost me 1ns memory latency (oh well).



Cerax said:


> Hi i want to order The gigabyte z390 PRO (NO WIFI) and i have this ram CMK16GX4M2B3200C16. I noticed its not on the qvl but its on the qvl of the wifi version. Do u think the ram will work fine?


From my anectodal experience, corsair has outstanding compatibility - seeing it's 3200MHz you shouldn't have any trouble. But in any case be prepared for the minimal risk of using the 14-day return window if you run into trouble (inability to run on certain XMP setting, forcing you to go to JEDEC etc...)


----------



## toncij

BIOSbreaker said:


> Take a look at Buildzoid's video below explaining in how the vendors configure it behind the scenes:
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> video
> 
> 
> 
> from what I understood the Gigabyte has T-Topology that will have better 4-DIMM capability, whereas Asus has the other way around (Daisy Chain) preferring one channel populated with shortest path to the IMC. He even managed to OC mem to 4533MHz on the Master.
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> video
> 
> 
> 
> Also from my experience, it will depend on how lucky you got in silicon lottery regarding Uncore. Once I OC'd my CPU and memory (3333CL16 2T -> 3600CL16 1T), I needed to tone down to 46 because 47 was unstable. Then I found out I was unstable on 46 even with basic [email protected] (or maybe I could have given 0,25-0,5V more for VCCIO and VCCSA but well too late for that ). Going down by 2 on the Uncore cost me 1ns memory latency (oh well).
> 
> 
> From my anectodal experience, corsair has outstanding compatibility - seeing it's 3200MHz you shouldn't have any trouble. But in any case be prepared for the minimal risk of using the 14-day return window if you run into trouble (inability to run on certain XMP setting, forcing you to go to JEDEC etc...)


I think both Asus and GB are T topo. My older Asus MX Z370 Formula runs 4x DIMM 4266C17 and 9900 at 5.0 and 4.8 fine. (VRM at 47°C ATM in idle). It seems that it killed the iGPU in favor of more CPU cores (you can't enable iGPU on 9900K), but - works. Amazing board. And I like Asus UEFI.
Now, many sources say GB Master and Extreme are top and I like 10GbE option, but - allegedly UEFI is not as good and lately perf. is not perfect (worse power transient times). Asus doesn't offer 10GbE, but UEFI... and I guess, could be better with mem oc as high as 4,26+GHz?


----------



## Cerax

Anyone here have Gigabyte z390 PRO ( NONWIFI ) with memory CMK16GX4M2B3200C16?


----------



## bl4ckdot

toncij said:


> Now after a while, can someone point out which board should behave better with high memory settins (4,266 4xDIMM) and 9900K at 5.0+. Asus Extreme or Aorus Extreme? Seems that both boards offer good VRMs, Aorus having allegedly worse memory behavior?


I'm in this case. The M11E works really well with 4 DIMMS (same topology as the Aorus). Since I prefer the ASUS bios, I went with ASUS but both should oc about the same.


----------



## KedarWolf

toncij said:


> Now after a while, can someone point out which board should behave better with high memory settins (4,266 4xDIMM) and 9900K at 5.0+. Asus Extreme or Aorus Extreme? Seems that both boards offer good VRMs, Aorus having allegedly worse memory behavior?


On my Aorus Master, I have 4200MHZ on a 9900k GSAT stable. 4x8GB, which for a four DIMM kit is pretty much unheard of. 

See here.

https://www.overclock.net/forum/6-i...390-aorus-owners-thread-320.html#post27949818


----------



## toncij

bl4ckdot said:


> I'm in this case. The M11E works really well with 4 DIMMS (same topology as the Aorus). Since I prefer the ASUS bios, I went with ASUS but both should oc about the same.





KedarWolf said:


> On my Aorus Master, I have 4200MHZ on a 9900k GSAT stable. 4x8GB, which for a four DIMM kit is pretty much unheard of.
> 
> See here.
> 
> https://www.overclock.net/forum/6-i...390-aorus-owners-thread-320.html#post27949818


Then again, Aorus extreme with 10GbE is even $100 cheaper than Asus Extreme without where I need to pay $100 more for a 10GbE card. 
But I know how to oc in Asus bios and Aorus is unknown to me.  

My Z370 runs relatively cool VRM with 5.0/4.8/4266 CPU/CACHE/RAM. Maybe it'll be enough.1.36-1.376V tho, but... Just not sure if 140A for the CPU and 200W is what it can keep up with.


----------



## JEKJR

Sorry about my English.

I have an Asrock k6 with bios 3.30 and when I put overclock in the 9900k in offset mode it only releases the LLC AUTO 3 4 5.

When vcore is fixed, 1 2 3 4 5 appears.


----------



## Falkentyne

JEKJR said:


> Sorry about my English.
> 
> I have an Asrock k6 with bios 3.30 and when I put overclock in the 9900k in offset mode it only releases the LLC AUTO 3 4 5.
> 
> When vcore is fixed, 1 2 3 4 5 appears.


High levels of vdroop removal via Loadline Calibration (LLC) are dangerous to use with Auto/Offset voltage modes as they conflict (combine) with the AC loadline mOhms value, which can cause your voltage to be over 150mv higher than what you think you're setting!

So Asrock simply blocks access to them.
On Gigabyte boards, when using Offset/Auto voltages, most people don't go above LLC=Low (usually with a reduction from the default 1.60 mOhms AC Loadline value), and absolutely do not go above LLC=Medium under any circumstances.= (using LLC Medium requires tweaking the AC loadline value downwards).


----------



## JEKJR

Falkentyne said:


> High levels of vdroop removal via Loadline Calibration (LLC) are dangerous to use with Auto/Offset voltage modes as they conflict (combine) with the AC loadline mOhms value, which can cause your voltage to be over 150mv higher than what you think you're setting!
> 
> So Asrock simply blocks access to them.
> On Gigabyte boards, when using Offset/Auto voltages, most people don't go above LLC=Low (usually with a reduction from the default 1.60 mOhms AC Loadline value), and absolutely do not go above LLC=Medium under any circumstances.= (using LLC Medium requires tweaking the AC loadline value downwards).


Thank!


----------



## toncij

Does anyone know what is the top current output of drivers on Z370 Asus MX Formula. 4 phases with doubled 40A or actually lower? Because it seems that under multicore load, Z370 throttles 5.1GHz/4.8uncore/4.27 RAM 9900K. Goes from 1.36V to 1.39V at LLC6, HWI readout is 144A and 199W... Expected?


----------



## scracy

toncij said:


> Does anyone know what is the top current output of drivers on Z370 Asus MX Formula. 4 phases with doubled 40A or actually lower? Because it seems that under multicore load, Z370 throttles 5.1GHz/4.8uncore/4.27 RAM 9900K. Goes from 1.36V to 1.39V at LLC6, HWI readout is 144A and 199W... Expected?


I have the same board LLC 6 tends to push the Vcore up quite a bit but LLC 5 tends to have excessive Vdroop, see screenshot below UEFI Vcore 1.29V LLC 6 OCCT load pushes Vcore to 1.344V briefly


----------



## toncij

scracy said:


> I have the same board LLC 6 tends to push the Vcore up quite a bit but LLC 5 tends to have excessive Vdroop, see screenshot below UEFI Vcore 1.29V LLC 6 OCCT load pushes Vcore to 1.344V briefly


Same display  Anyway, yes, seems your RAM is significantly lower; would love to see if that alone makes my 5.1 ask for 1.36V-1.39V at LLC6. Could be. CPU looks better than mine, because as I recall I can't reach 5.2 without a BSOD. Do you have Cinebench R20 scores? I'm at 5400ish MT and 525 ST. But I guess the board can hold that both.  b


----------



## scracy

toncij said:


> Same display  Anyway, yes, seems your RAM is significantly lower; would love to see if that alone makes my 5.1 ask for 1.36V-1.39V at LLC6. Could be. CPU looks better than mine, because as I recall I can't reach 5.2 without a BSOD. Do you have Cinebench R20 scores? I'm at 5400ish MT and 525 ST. But I guess the board can hold that both.  b


Cinebench R20 scores below perhaps being held back by the board or memory, though my CPU has an excellent memory controller as seen by second screenshot (not mine but my CPU done on Maximus XI Gene) purchased my CPU pre binned from Encrypted 11


----------



## encrypted11

Falkentyne said:


> High levels of vdroop removal via Loadline Calibration (LLC) are dangerous to use with Auto/Offset voltage modes as they conflict (combine) with the AC loadline mOhms value, which can cause your voltage to be over 150mv higher than what you think you're setting!
> 
> So Asrock simply blocks access to them.
> On Gigabyte boards, when using Offset/Auto voltages, most people don't go above LLC=Low (usually with a reduction from the default 1.60 mOhms AC Loadline value), and absolutely do not go above LLC=Medium under any circumstances.= (using LLC Medium requires tweaking the AC loadline value downwards).


*Whistles*


----------



## Falkentyne

encrypted11 said:


> *Whistles*


And of course Asrock is just copying the AMI original "help" fields, which says "A value of 100 = 1 mOhm", yet they allow entering in the actual mOhm values directly rather than the main value.
Inb4 someone destroys their board or CPU by entering 60, thinking they're entering 60/100=0.60 mOhms when they're actually entering 60 mOhm...


----------



## encrypted11

Yes the descriptions are unchanged from AMI Aptio V help fields
It's a custom BIOS they sent.

Behaviourally ASRock Z370's have their IA AC/DC loadline tweaked automatically to the lowest non zero value, when offsets are applied but the logic has since been removed in Z390 and modest offsets may result in significant VID boosting unfortunately.

Been asking the BIOS guys via ASRock TSD (the likes of Giga & Asus allowing control over (IA AC/DC load line)) and this is the furthest they were about to go currently. Hope it'll be unlocked for the final BIOSes at some point.


----------



## PrimoGhost

Friends.

I would like to learn how to calculate VRM efficiency like here 

https://youtu.be/bLO-vYjJN-I?t=1345

For Asus CODE X. Can someone smart help me with this? Which data i need?


----------



## AlphaC

PrimoGhost said:


> Friends.
> 
> I would like to learn how to calculate VRM efficiency like here
> 
> https://youtu.be/bLO-vYjJN-I?t=1345
> 
> For Asus CODE X. Can someone smart help me with this? Which data i need?


You need the datasheet for the powerblock on your board. There's two variants of your board probably , Vishay ZF906 and Infineon 50A powerblock
Main values used are RDS(on) for the low side and also the rise/fall times and Q_G for the high side.

----------------
Asrock launched new Z390 boards but I don't know the details.

https://www.asrock.com/mb/Intel/Z390 Phantom Gaming X/
"IR Digital PWM, 14 Power Phase design"
--> either 10+4 or 12+2
Claims to have their Hyper BCLK , aka clockgen

Their marketing pages have been wrong before but it lists 50A DrMos , 60A chokes, 12K Nichicon capacitors.
Supposedly there's a second BIOS chip and a backplate. It doesn't appear to allow you to manually switch the BIOs and also in the manual it says the backup BIOs cannot be overwritten.
Newegg price is $330 so it's higher than Taichi Ultimate https://www.newegg.com/p/N82E16813157879

https://www.asrock.com/mb/Intel/Z390 Phantom Gaming 7/index.asp
"Digital PWM, 10 Power Phase" --- probably low-midrange slotting in around Phantom Gaming 6 level , note the removal of the audio covering 
--> 10 phases is probably 8 CPU +2 for SOC/iGPU , Extreme4 claimed 12 phases but was 10+2 Dual-N fets without doublers
Also lists 2x BIOS chips
Claims to have Hyper BCLK , aka clockgen
retains power/reset/debug LED from Phantom Gaming 6
Display outputs are HDMI + Displayport instead of HDMI+DP+ VGA: yay
$196 at Newegg (Phantom Gaming 6 listed $196 MSRP) https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813157878

The inductors/chokes look to be a different model compared to the older higher end boards.

Looks to be mostly IO shield and RGB additions


----------



## ezveedub

I looked through the specs on the first post, but hows does the Giga Z390 Aorus Pro ranks as far using a 9700K for overclocking mildly, say 5.1 or just basic stock configuration? Needing something with some more power to feed a GTX1080Ti just for gaming. I mainly watercool CPU and GPU and VRMs, but with scant monoblocks for Z390, the VRMs would be on air cooled only. Is it mid range to higher midrange or lower than that as far as Z390 mobos?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## AlphaC

Aorus Pro should handle everything you throw at it unless you have zero cooling in your case and are running full on AVX2 loads...
The highest temperature on that board is actually a doubler on the back.

The Aorus Pro is priced as midrange but it has a power delivery on par with the higher end boards such as the Asus Maximus Hero or Asrock Taichi. It shares a VRM configuration with the cheaper Aorus Elite (this comes without the heatpipe) , Aorus Ultra (Ultra has a VRM heatsink with more fins, 3rd M.2, and thicker PCB), and the Designare (which has a different heatsink with same components but thicker PCB).

i.e. https://www.guru3d.com/articles_pages/gigabyte_z390_aorus_pro_review,18.html
https://bit-tech.net/reviews/tech/motherboards/gigabyte-z390-aorus-pro-review/8/
https://pcper.com/2018/11/gigabyte-z390-aorus-pro-motherboard-review/9/#ftoc-heading-10
https://proclockers.com/reviews/motherboards/gigabyte-z390-aorus-pro-motherboard-review/page/0/7
https://www.overclock3d.net/reviews/cpu_mainboard/gigabyte_z390_aorus_pro_review/3
 https://www.modders-inc.com/aorus-z390-pro-motherboard-review/10/
https://www.bjorn3d.com/2018/11/gigabyte-z390-aorus-pro-wifi-review/12/

Also reference this roundup article by hardware info:
https://nl.hardware.info/reviews/8855/14/23-intel-z390-moederborden-review-+-vrm-test-welk-bord-is-echt-8-core-waardig-benchmarks-vrm-test


----------



## Raghar

PrimoGhost said:


> Friends.
> 
> I would like to learn how to calculate VRM efficiency
> 
> For Asus CODE X. Can someone smart help me with this? Which data i need?


The best way is to grab two MB, one CPU and wattmeter. Put the same value into BIOS (disable turbo and multicore ehantments and put CPU voltage to manual) and set power limit to 500 W or higher. Start stress test program. Look at wattmeter, the difference in reading is difference in efficiency between two MBs.


----------



## asdkj1740

AlphaC said:


> You need the datasheet for the powerblock on your board. There's two variants of your board probably , Vishay ZF906 and Infineon 50A powerblock
> Main values used are RDS(on) for the low side and also the rise/fall times and Q_G for the high side.
> 
> ----------------
> Asrock launched new Z390 boards but I don't know the details.
> 
> https://www.asrock.com/mb/Intel/Z390 Phantom Gaming X/
> "IR Digital PWM, 14 Power Phase design"
> --> either 10+4 or 12+2
> Claims to have their Hyper BCLK , aka clockgen
> 
> Their marketing pages have been wrong before but it lists 50A DrMos , 60A chokes, 12K Nichicon capacitors.
> Supposedly there's a second BIOS chip and a backplate. It doesn't appear to allow you to manually switch the BIOs and also in the manual it says the backup BIOs cannot be overwritten.
> Newegg price is $330 so it's higher than Taichi Ultimate https://www.newegg.com/p/N82E16813157879
> 
> https://www.asrock.com/mb/Intel/Z390 Phantom Gaming 7/index.asp
> "Digital PWM, 10 Power Phase" --- probably low-midrange slotting in around Phantom Gaming 6 level , note the removal of the audio covering
> --> 10 phases is probably 8 CPU +2 for SOC/iGPU , Extreme4 claimed 12 phases but was 10+2 Dual-N fets without doublers
> Also lists 2x BIOS chips
> Claims to have Hyper BCLK , aka clockgen
> retains power/reset/debug LED from Phantom Gaming 6
> Display outputs are HDMI + Displayport instead of HDMI+DP+ VGA: yay
> $196 at Newegg (Phantom Gaming 6 listed $196 MSRP) https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813157878
> 
> The inductors/chokes look to be a different model compared to the older higher end boards.
> 
> Looks to be mostly IO shield and RGB additions


https://youtu.be/g4vqft9l8lc?t=86
1:28
phantom gaming 7
sic634
seems to be 8+2 (1:45)


----------



## AlphaC

Wow nice find. I wouldn't have seen that.

Seems to be SiC634 for the VCORE and 2x SiC632 for V-GT
Controller might be ISL69138 , there's 4 ICs on the back that might be the doublers

From the newegg link:


----------



## asdkj1740

AlphaC said:


> Wow nice find. I wouldn't have seen that.
> 
> Seems to be SiC634 for the VCORE and 2x SiC632 for V-GT
> Controller might be ISL69138
> 
> From the newegg link:


well so it should be at 4+2 pwm mode and then being doubled to 8+2. i didnt see this pic before.

the vrm cooling on this new board is quiet interesting.
the official site of this new board shows a temp advantage of using new sic634 over the csd87350d used on taichi.
but it was tested without heatsink installed, namely it was tested on bare pcb.
taichi has much better vrm heatsink design while the new heatsink design on these new boards are not impressive at all.
quiet disappointing.


----------



## AlphaC

Steven has put up an article today: 
https://www.tweaktown.com/articles/9000/asrock-z390-phantom-gaming-motherboard-preview/index3.html

The VRM heatsink looks to be a repeat of the Gigabyte Z370 Gaming 7 mistake (good power stages, shoddy heatsink), it's empty in the middle so I'm not sure how they expect the airflow to reach all outer surfaces let alone the inner one.


----------



## Sailordude9980

I have a z170 deluxe. Great motherboard. When does a motherboard stop getting supported? (Bios firmware updates)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## ezveedub

Sailordude9980 said:


> I have a z170 deluxe. Great motherboard. When does a motherboard stop getting supported? (Bios firmware updates)
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Unless there's something needed for security or current features, they usually stop around a year after the next chipset is released. I'm on Z270 & Z370 and haven't seen any updates for Z270 in a year, but Z370 had two updates this year. You can usually find modded bios over on Tweaktown forum.


----------



## Solarity

AlphaC said:


> Steven has put up an article today:
> https://www.tweaktown.com/articles/9000/asrock-z390-phantom-gaming-motherboard-preview/index3.html
> 
> The VRM heatsink looks to be a repeat of the Gigabyte Z370 Gaming 7 mistake (good power stages, shoddy heatsink), it's empty in the middle so I'm not sure how they expect the airflow to reach all outer surfaces let alone the inner one.


I will never understand why engineering gives the keys to marketing ><. I removed the heatsink from my Gaming 7 and replaced it with customized water blocks for my 9900K.


----------



## Imprezzion

Well, i can get me a delidded 8600K for a great price, now i'm just looking for a board for it.

Which board would be good for max OC on water (H115i / custom) on a 8600K? Can be both Z370 and Z390, i don't really mind.
Cheaper is better, don't need any useless features. I had my eyes on the MSI Z370 Gaming Pro Carbon (€125) as i *really* prefer MSI's design and BIOS.
What I can also get pretty cheap:

Z370:
-Gigabyte Aorus Z370 Ultra Gaming 2.0-OP (€150)
-Asus Prime Z370-A II (€175)
-ASRock Fatal1ty Z370 Gaming K6 (€192)
-MSI Z370 Gaming Pro Carbon (€125 2ndhand local / €200 new)


Z390:
-Asus ROG STRIX Z390-H GAMING (€179)
-ASRock Z390 Extreme4 ((€160)
-ASRock Z390 Steel Legend (€165)
-MSI MPG Z390 Gaming Edge AC (€180)
-Gigabyte Z390 Aorus Pro (and WiFI, same price) (€185)

If i have to take most of the things this topic told me into consideration the GB Aorus Pro would be the obvious choice, but i HATE GB's terrible BIOS's.. 
I really prefer MSI but i doubt the Z370 Pro Carbon is any good and i think the Z390 Gaming Edge AC ain't much better.
I run a Z170A Gaming M7 now on my 5.1Ghz 7700K as the Z170A Gaming M5 throttled like hell even with a 4.6Ghz 6700k.. The Gaming M7 is the lowest-end MSI board on Z170/Z270 that can do ANY overclocking and i'm scared the Z370/Z390 is the same story for MSI lol.


----------



## Solarity

Imprezzion said:


> Well, i can get me a delidded 8600K for a great price, now i'm just looking for a board for it.
> 
> Which board would be good for max OC on water (H115i / custom) on a 8600K? Can be both Z370 and Z390, i don't really mind.
> Cheaper is better, don't need any useless features. I had my eyes on the MSI Z370 Gaming Pro Carbon (€125) as i *really* prefer MSI's design and BIOS.
> What I can also get pretty cheap:
> 
> Z370:
> -Gigabyte Aorus Z370 Ultra Gaming 2.0-OP (€150)
> -Asus Prime Z370-A II (€175)
> -ASRock Fatal1ty Z370 Gaming K6 (€192)
> -MSI Z370 Gaming Pro Carbon (€125 2ndhand local / €200 new)
> 
> 
> Z390:
> -Asus ROG STRIX Z390-H GAMING (€179)
> -ASRock Z390 Extreme4 ((€160)
> -ASRock Z390 Steel Legend (€165)
> -MSI MPG Z390 Gaming Edge AC (€180)
> -Gigabyte Z390 Aorus Pro (and WiFI, same price) (€185)
> 
> If i have to take most of the things this topic told me into consideration the GB Aorus Pro would be the obvious choice, but i HATE GB's terrible BIOS's..
> I really prefer MSI but i doubt the Z370 Pro Carbon is any good and i think the Z390 Gaming Edge AC ain't much better.
> I run a Z170A Gaming M7 now on my 5.1Ghz 7700K as the Z170A Gaming M5 throttled like hell even with a 4.6Ghz 6700k.. The Gaming M7 is the lowest-end MSI board on Z170/Z270 that can do ANY overclocking and i'm scared the Z370/Z390 is the same story for MSI lol.


I really don't see the reason why people put so much weight on their decision for the Gigabyte's UEFI, if it is fully capable as Asus's. It might not be laid out the best, though you can always learn a layout and the UEFI can be updated. My only complaint about the Gigabyte UEFI was trying to figure out how to enable NVME Raid. RAID setup might be convoluted for good reason, don't use it! The Gigabyte UEFI that relates to overclocking portion isn't that difficult and how often are you in the UEFI after you setup your OC? You are stuck with the VRM for the life of the board. I would highly suggest the Z390 Aorus Pro (and wifi) out of your list. The boards you listed for Z370 will be limited for 9700k and 9900k, if you ever do decided to upgrade.

I fully agree that Gigabyte should improve the UX/UI of their UEFI and we should get them to, though it drives my crazy when people would take an inferior VRM for the sake of a better UX in the UEFI. Don't meant to rant, though this is a pep peeve of mine as I see many repeating the same thing.


----------



## Imprezzion

I don't have any experience with the later Gigabyte boards as my last one was a Z77 UD5H and that was barely a UEFI BIOS so, maybe my bias against Gigabyte isn't justified anymore. As long as memory timings and LLC + offset core voltage can be setup properly I don't really mind. Do not use RAID on NVME (only on sata SSD's) and even things like fan control is all remotely managed with a separate controller so..

If I do decide to upgrade, especially with the MDS patches having a huge impact on HT enabled CPU's in most workloads, I'll take a Z390 Aorus Pro. Would match my RTX 2080 Aorus Extreme really well tho 
I am still doubting the 8600/9600K route vs a 9700K honestly. As long as it has no HT I'm happy. And the 9700K being a true 8 core is nice but it's quite a bit more expensive as a 9600K goes for less than €250 new here currently.


----------



## Solarity

Imprezzion said:


> I don't have any experience with the later Gigabyte boards as my last one was a Z77 UD5H and that was barely a UEFI BIOS so, maybe my bias against Gigabyte isn't justified anymore. As long as memory timings and LLC + offset core voltage can be setup properly I don't really mind. Do not use RAID on NVME (only on sata SSD's) and even things like fan control is all remotely managed with a separate controller so..
> 
> If I do decide to upgrade, especially with the MDS patches having a huge impact on HT enabled CPU's in most workloads, I'll take a Z390 Aorus Pro. Would match my RTX 2080 Aorus Extreme really well tho
> I am still doubting the 8600/9600K route vs a 9700K honestly. As long as it has no HT I'm happy. And the 9700K being a true 8 core is nice but it's quite a bit more expensive as a 9600K goes for less than €250 new here currently.


I think that was my first board I OC'ed, I followed some guides back then and learned a lot from this forum. I gave the system to my nephew and is still running the 3750K @ 4.4Ghz. 

I learned the hard way with Intel RST that even w/o a drive failure, just resetting your UEFI can kill your array ><. Luckily I recovered the data and just went to a separate OS/Data drive. We use RAID at work for our physical servers. Usually mirror OS disks and raid 5 w/ one hot spare. Most of our systems are VMs now.

I always thought the i5's give a lot of performance for the dollar and I think the i5 boost is intentionally nerfed to make the i7's look better. Granted I did buy a 9900K for science, to replace my 8600K. I wanted to see how it would do with a Z370 Gaming 7: 




Granted the issues were only found with Intel, if I were in your shoes, I would wait to see what AMD has to offer at Computex.


----------



## ezveedub

Being I've used Gigabyte for like 15 years or more, I always find it funny when someone complains about their bios, yet I have no issues with them at all....and I've used older Asus mobos and I'm still not used to them at all.....


----------



## ezveedub

Solarity said:


> Granted I did buy a 9900K for science, to replace my 8600K. I wanted to see how it would do with a Z370 Gaming 7: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sM2zygWQN2M


Fuuny, I just purchased this Aorus Z370 Gaming 7 over the Z390 Aorus Pro and will use a 9700K instead of the 9900K. Just have to make sure the bios is updated to support it or I'll be dragging a 8600K out to do the bios flash possibly


----------



## PrimoGhost

AlphaC said:


> You need the datasheet for the powerblock on your board. There's two variants of your board probably , Vishay ZF906 and Infineon 50A powerblock
> Main values used are RDS(on) for the low side and also the rise/fall times and Q_G for the high side.


Thank You 4 answer.

I've found it:

Controller: ASP1405I (4+2) https://www.infineon.com/dgdl/Infin...N.pdf?fileId=5546d462576f347501579c95d19772b5 ( i hope so? )
Doppler: 4x IR 3599 Datasheet = https://www.infineon.com/dgdl/ir3599.pdf?fileId=5546d462533600a4015355cdb56a176f
HS/LS Mosfet - ZF906 Datashheet = https://www.vishay.com/docs/69920/si7905dn.pdf

I respected Your time, but can U give me an example how to calculate it? typical scenario for 8700k 1.4V? V draw 5V Just like Nexus above doing it? Please.


----------



## AlphaC

https://www.fairchildsemi.com/application-notes/AN/AN-6005.pdf --> I believe has been taken down after acquisition by Onsemi , see attached
https://www.ti.com/lit/an/slyt664/slyt664.pdf
https://www.ti.com/lit/an/slpa009a/slpa009a.pdf
http://www.onsemi.com/pub/Collateral/EFFICIENCY SIMULATOR AND MOSFET SELECTOR FOR T3 AND T6.XLSM

As far as I know buildzoid approximates with the RDS(on) and high side fet's rise/fall time and he doesn't use duty cycle or gate charge (Q_G). There's other losses involved but the biggest ones are low side conduction and high side switching.

For a ZF906 it's a dual-N fet so just treat the control fet as high side (channel 1) and the sync fet as low side (usually labeled channel 2).

With a doubler involved you have added latency but the current is halved (unless it's quadrupled from 4 to 16 phases for example). So for the ASUS implementation it's more or less whatever amperage going into your CPU divided by 8 dual-N fets.

*Low side conduction loss *can be approximated by (1-D) * (I_out)^2 * R_DS(on)_LS

R_DS(on)_LS = On state Resistance of the low side fet
D = duty cycle , buildzoid typically doesn't include this which is fine since gate charge losses and extra stuff aren't included so you end up with a higher (safer) number
I_out = current output


_If you want it in the simplest form it's basically P=I^2*R_


*High side switching loss* can be approximated by P_sw_HS: 0.5 * (t_rise+t_fall) * f_sw

t_rise = rise time
t_fall = fall time
f_sw= switching frequency

_You're accounting for the time that the switch is not fully off or on_

_High side conduction loss is much less than the conduction loss of the low side fet , it's basically I^2*R*D _where D is the duty cycle
_Low side switching loss is relatively minor in comparison since it's switched about 10% of the time , the biggest factor is the deadtime loss which can be approximated from the deadtime_

A doubler basically cuts the effective switching frequency in half _or_ the current per high side fet (for the switching portion). There's also implications for the low side fet since the mosfets aren't turning on at the same time , you have half the current going through each one and current is squared for low side conduction losses. If you have both low sides turning on at once it's half on state resistance (since they are still both on at the same time) and not half current. If you can run 300kHz on the mosfet it means you can run 600kHz at the PWM with a doubler.

An even more basic way of looking at it is the figure of merit , which is typically Q_G x RDS(on). This is erroneous sometimes, but it's a good indicator since reducing both factors is harder than reducing one.


This is the datasheet you want:
http://www.vishay.com/docs/67547/sizf906dt.pdf

The one you have is for 905.

Using maximum 193A to the CPU (~250W at 1.3V) from Intel's specsheet for 9th gen i7/i9 is going to produce a different number than a normal workload that's likely around 160W (~125A), as spread across 8 mosfets it's already 24A. Per techpower the performance gains for their sample are up to 180W https://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/Intel/Core_i9_9900K/18.html , we see a similar scenario at GamersNexus https://www.gamersnexus.net/hwrevie...paste-delid-gaming-benchmarks-vs-2700x/page-2.


----------



## asdkj1740

ASRock Phantom Gaming 7
https://youtu.be/5mwWlpurVq8?t=110
1:50


about the vrm stress test
9900K 1.36V 5GHZ
result in 180w only.............and the vrm is 100c......


a 9700k at stock running prime95 avx could reach 180w easily.
i once tried to play with a 9900k at stock on m11e at stock too, the prime95 avx gave me 230w lol.


https://youtu.be/5mwWlpurVq8?t=307
5:07
nice tunnel


----------



## Falkentyne

asdkj1740 said:


> ASRock Phantom Gaming 7
> https://youtu.be/5mwWlpurVq8?t=110
> 1:50
> 
> 
> about the vrm stress test
> 9900K 1.36V 5GHZ
> result in 180w only.............and the vrm is 100c......
> 
> 
> a 9700k at stock running prime95 avx could reach 180w easily.
> i once tried to play with a 9900k at stock on m11e at stock too, the prime95 avx gave me 230w lol.
> 
> 
> https://youtu.be/5mwWlpurVq8?t=307
> 5:07
> nice tunnel


230W at 4.7 ghz in prime95?
This is not possible..

At 4.7 ghz, Cache=4.4 ghz, Bios voltage 1.200v, Loadline Calibration=level 6 (Turbo), Prime95 29.8 build 3, 15K FFT FMA3 fixed test = 181 watts.
AVX is 10 watts lower.

Are you reading CPU Package Power?
CPU Package Power is VID * Amps.
If VID is 1.24v reported at load, but you set 1.2v in bios with LLC6, load vcore will be much lower and thus CPU package power will be reported too high if its reading VID.


----------



## BradleyW

ezveedub said:


> Being I've used Gigabyte for like 15 years or more, I always find it funny when someone complains about their bios, yet I have no issues with them at all....and I've used older Asus mobos and I'm still not used to them at all.....


I've also used GIGABYTE boards since the P35 chipset, and I've never had BIOS issues until I got the Z390 Ultra. However, with a bit of finesse, I could get around it. In my case, since they released the F7 BIOS, there are no issues. Very solid.

As for hardware issues with GIGABYTE, the X79 UD3 overheated. VRM cooling was terrible. Replaced for UP4. Better cooling, but would still overheat during a long stretch of Prime95 without a fan being placed directly towards the HS. My current Z390 Ultra can run up to 100c on the VRM's, but if I place a few 40mm fans onto the HS, it runs at 71c. That's under overclocking conditions, high voltage, massive loads (Prime95 FMA3). Not bad given the situation. Very good board!


----------



## Solarity

I am currently running the Z370 Gaming 7 w/ customized water blocks. I am thinking about swapping it out with a Z390 Master and tossing my old board up on ebay or Clist. I am running the 9900K on my board and when I was air cooling, it got up to a 100C very quickly with Prime95 w/ AVX. Though it would go up to high 90's when I was stress testing with Realbench. I wouldn't mind redoing my loop w/o active water cooling on the VRMs, hence why I am looking at the Master. Granted I wonder how will the master will do under the conditions in my box. I am running dual 360mm rads as all intake w/ only a 140mm fan for exhaust.


----------



## ezveedub

Well, at least one of three parts showed up...found this on sale for $165 Monday and it was supposed to be paired with a 9700K, BUT now I have a Z390 Master coming also that was on sale for about the same price, but no Optane of course. Might end up keeping both this and the Z390 Master.....to pair with a 9900K 












Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## ezveedub

Solarity said:


> I am currently running the Z370 Gaming 7 w/ customized water blocks. I am thinking about swapping it out with a Z390 Master and tossing my old board up on ebay or Clist. I am running the 9900K on my board and when I was air cooling, it got up to a 100C very quickly with Prime95 w/ AVX. Though it would go up to high 90's when I was stress testing with Realbench. I wouldn't mind redoing my loop w/o active water cooling on the VRMs, hence why I am looking at the Master. Granted I wonder how will the master will do under the conditions in my box. I am running dual 360mm rads as all intake w/ only a 140mm fan for exhaust.




Are you running a Monoblock on the Z370 Gaming 7? They don’t make one for the Z390 Gigabyte mobo yet when I checked, so this sort limited me to the Z370 for minute since I have one on a Gaming 5 I might transfer. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## AlphaC

asdkj1740 said:


> ASRock Phantom Gaming 7
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> https://youtu.be/5mwWlpurVq8?t=110
> 
> 
> 1:50
> 
> 
> about the vrm stress test
> 9900K 1.36V 5GHZ
> result in 180w only.............and the vrm is 100c......
> 
> 
> a 9700k at stock running prime95 avx could reach 180w easily.
> i once tried to play with a 9900k at stock on m11e at stock too, the prime95 avx gave me 230w lol.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> https://youtu.be/5mwWlpurVq8?t=307
> 
> 
> 5:07
> nice tunnel


The heatsink must be pretty terrible despite the heatpipe, since it's basically the Maximus Z390 Hero in terms of power delivery (with ISL6617 doublers and ISL69138 PWM) Maybe PCB Is thinner/thicker.

Those MAGIC inductors might be higher resistance than Cooper Bussman ones on the Taichi / Phantom Gaming 6 though.


----------



## Solarity

ezveedub said:


> Well, at least one of three parts showed up...found this on sale for $165 Monday and it was supposed to be paired with a 9700K, BUT now I have a Z390 Master coming also that was on sale for about the same price, but no Optane of course. Might end up keeping both this and the Z390 Master.....to pair with a 9900K
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


Hah, I bet you bought that Z390 open box I was looking at from Newegg. 



ezveedub said:


> Are you running a Monoblock on the Z370 Gaming 7? They don’t make one for the Z390 Gigabyte mobo yet when I checked, so this sort limited me to the Z370 for minute since I have one on a Gaming 5 I might transfer.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


No I modified some old VRM blocks and mounted them to my board:


----------



## BF3magic

Hi, I'm new to the forum. I'm looking to build a matx with 9900K overclocked. From what I researched it seems that the only viable option would be ROG Maximum XI GENE (too expensive + only 2 ram slots + 1 PCIE...) and Gigabyte Z390 M Gaming. The VRM on MSI MPG Z390M GAMING EDGE AC seems not good enough. Is it true? Also has anyone looked into this Colorful CVN Z390M Gaming V20?


----------



## asdkj1740

AlphaC said:


> The heatsink must be pretty terrible despite the heatpipe, since it's basically the Maximus Z390 Hero in terms of power delivery (with ISL6617 doublers and ISL69138 PWM) Maybe PCB Is thinner/thicker.
> 
> Those MAGIC inductors might be higher resistance than Cooper Bussman ones on the Taichi / Phantom Gaming 6 though.


what a shame to the comig trend of having good mosfets but equipped with bad heatsink...
z390 gigabyte gaming sli, z390 msi ace, asus prime pro x470..etc

i would rather go for the vrm design (mosfet+heatsink) of b360/b450 mortar. i just want a vrm design that wont hurt the performance.


----------



## asdkj1740

Falkentyne said:


> 230W at 4.7 ghz in prime95?
> This is not possible..
> 
> At 4.7 ghz, Cache=4.4 ghz, Bios voltage 1.200v, Loadline Calibration=level 6 (Turbo), Prime95 29.8 build 3, 15K FFT FMA3 fixed test = 181 watts.
> AVX is 10 watts lower.
> 
> Are you reading CPU Package Power?
> CPU Package Power is VID * Amps.
> If VID is 1.24v reported at load, but you set 1.2v in bios with LLC6, load vcore will be much lower and thus CPU package power will be reported too high if its reading VID.


9700kf, prime95 v29.8 small fft, z390 gigabyte gaming sli bios f7


----------



## asdkj1740

ezveedub said:


> Well, at least one of three parts showed up...found this on sale for $165 Monday and it was supposed to be paired with a 9700K, BUT now I have a Z390 Master coming also that was on sale for about the same price, but no Optane of course. Might end up keeping both this and the Z390 Master.....to pair with a 9900K
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


replace the stock pad and then gaming 7 will shine again.


----------



## ezveedub

asdkj1740 said:


> replace the stock pad and then gaming 7 will shine again.


I will go over it here soon to see how the thermal pad sits, but it may get a EK Monoblock installed if I keep it. 




Solarity said:


> Hah, I bet you bought that Z390 open box I was looking at from Newegg.



I bought both the Z370 Gaming 7 and the Z390 AORUS Master open box deals, lol....the Gaming 7 looks totally untouched and everything is still sealed. Will see how the Master looks when it comes in next week. 




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## Falkentyne

asdkj1740 said:


> 9700kf, prime95 v29.8 small fft, z390 gigabyte gaming sli bios f7


You're using 173 watts not 199 watts. Look at power POUT.


----------



## asdkj1740

Falkentyne said:


> You're using 173 watts not 199 watts. Look at power POUT.


yes, thats why i say it is not hard for 9700k to reach 180w. 
and 180w for 9900k is like a joke.


----------



## ezveedub

Well, they did update the bios on this Z370 Gaming 7 so it will accept 9 series CPUs. Also noticed the VRM small fan is set to VRM MOS temp on chassis fan 2 header and you can change this in Smart Fan settings, so this can actually be played with to come in earlier if needed. The heatsInk for the VRMs was seated correctly also. Got it sitting in an old case just to test out the 9700K and some other stuff this weekend.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## asdkj1740

no this is not


----------



## ezveedub

asdkj1740 said:


> no this is not




Lol, I did run Prime 95 on this Gamjng 7 and the VRMs went to 122C after 10 minutes or so. I could touch the heat sink and not feel much heat like it should...so I pulled my Gaming 5 heat sink (same part-different sleeving) and threw in some thermal pads from my EVGA RTX air cooler laying around...used some sticky thermal pads that were about twice the thickness of the stock pads. Ran Prime 95 again and now it’s about 86C after 10-15 minutes and the heatsInk is damn hot now, so those stock pads are definitely not working. 











Also note, this is a Gaming 7 Optane which is a later release of the Z370 Gaming 7, so you would think Gigabyte would have corrected this heatsInk thermal pad by now, but I guess not. This isn’t a Revision 2, but it uses a different bios from the non Optane model, which I found out yesterday trying to update this mobo....also, this Optane does speed up regular HDDs.... like a lot. Really impressed with it so far. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## asdkj1740

ezveedub said:


> Lol, I did run Prime 95 on this Gamjng 7 and the VRMs went to 122C after 10 minutes or so. I could touch the heat sink and not feel much heat like it should...so I pulled my Gaming 5 heat sink (same part-different sleeving) and threw in some thermal pads from my EVGA RTX air cooler laying around...used some sticky thermal pads that were about twice the thickness of the stock pads. Ran Prime 95 again and now it’s about 86C after 10-15 minutes and the heatsInk is damn hot now, so those stock pads are definitely not working.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Also note, this is a Gaming 7 Optane which is a later release of the Z370 Gaming 7, so you would think Gigabyte would have corrected this heatsInk thermal pad by now, but I guess not. This isn’t a Revision 2, but it uses a different bios from the non Optane model, which I found out yesterday trying to update this mobo....also, this Optane does speed up regular HDDs.... like a lot. Really impressed with it so far.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


lol, good mod dude.
i remeber i have posted some pic about z370 g7 optane right here when it was just launched, they have not changed that.

bear in mind that when mosfets temps reach 90c then the little fan under the i/o shield will be triggered. so in your case it is stock 1mm pad @ 122c WITH FAN TURNING ON vs 2mm 3rd party pad @ 85c WITH FAN OFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF


----------



## Solarity

ezveedub said:


> Lol, I did run Prime 95 on this Gamjng 7 and the VRMs went to 122C after 10 minutes or so. I could touch the heat sink and not feel much heat like it should...so I pulled my Gaming 5 heat sink (same part-different sleeving) and threw in some thermal pads from my EVGA RTX air cooler laying around...used some sticky thermal pads that were about twice the thickness of the stock pads. Ran Prime 95 again and now it’s about 86C after 10-15 minutes and the heatsInk is damn hot now, so those stock pads are definitely not working.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Also note, this is a Gaming 7 Optane which is a later release of the Z370 Gaming 7, so you would think Gigabyte would have corrected this heatsInk thermal pad by now, but I guess not. This isn’t a Revision 2, but it uses a different bios from the non Optane model, which I found out yesterday trying to update this mobo....also, this Optane does speed up regular HDDs.... like a lot. Really impressed with it so far.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


Is that Prime95 run with AVX? That is an impressive improvement, I might have to give it a try. I did play around with the removing the LED shrouds covering the VRM and saw a ~2C improvement, though I am currently running my modified VRM blocks. Though one of my issues is I am running a 2x360mm rads (top and front) as all intake and I have 1x140mm radiator in the rear. So what little air does get to the VRM's won't be all that cool. Granted normally I won't run AVX loads and high CPU usage items like Prime95, so this might allow me to ditch the water cooling of the VRMs.


----------



## ezveedub

Solarity said:


> Is that Prime95 run with AVX? That is an impressive improvement, I might have to give it a try. I did play around with the removing the LED shrouds covering the VRM and saw a ~2C improvement, though I am currently running my modified VRM blocks. Though one of my issues is I am running a 2x360mm rads (top and front) as all intake and I have 1x140mm radiator in the rear. So what little air does get to the VRM's won't be all that cool. Granted normally I won't run AVX loads and high CPU usage items like Prime95, so this might allow me to ditch the water cooling of the VRMs.




I ran it with Prime95 Ver 294, Build 8. Those temps were actually in the case with no real direct air flow at the heatsInk. I have since removed the EVGA thermal pads and now have Arctic 1.5mm 6mKw thermal pads in place and now have the CPU with a waterblock, so the load is going to be higher now. I’m doing a test now with Prime to see how high it goes with the CPU water cooled now, but I Leary recall it going only to 82C a few days ago. As for all the other tests and programs I’ve ran, the VRMs only go this high in temps with Prime. Never seen CPU or VRMs go high temperatures with any other apps I use. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## Solarity

ezveedub said:


> I ran it with Prime95 Ver 294, Build 8. Those temps were actually in the case with no real direct air flow at the heatsInk. I have since removed the EVGA thermal pads and now have Arctic 1.5mm 6mKw thermal pads in place and now have the CPU with a waterblock, so the load is going to be higher now. I’m doing a test now with Prime to see how high it goes with the CPU water cooled now, but I Leary recall it going only to 82C a few days ago. As for all the other tests and programs I’ve ran, the VRMs only go this high in temps with Prime. Never seen CPU or VRMs go high temperatures with any other apps I use.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


You used a 9700K? So my 9900K will run hotter with HT. What voltage and frequency did you have?


----------



## ezveedub

Solarity said:


> You used a 9700K? So my 9900K will run hotter with HT. What voltage and frequency did you have?




It’s running stock settings on the 9700K currently for testing, as I wanted to see how it does before overclocking it with a WC block on the CPU. Have to manually overclock it soon to see how much hotter it may or may not go. 

This was the temperatures just now running on performance fan settings about 12 minutes in.










I now have the fans at full speed setting on all fans (3 120 fans on 360 radiator sitting above the mobo, on one front, side and rear case fan) and this is the temps at 30 minutes.









This is the current thermal pads on the heatsInk now. 









Also, AFAIK, the VRMs on the Gaming 7 go to 135C before hitting thermal throttling, so it’s not like they are close to maxed out. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## Falkentyne

ezveedub said:


> It’s running stock settings on the 9700K currently for testing, as I wanted to see how it does before overclocking it with a WC block on the CPU. Have to manually overclock it soon to see how much hotter it may or may not go.
> 
> This was the temperatures just now running on performance fan settings about 12 minutes in.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I now have the fans at full speed setting on all fans (3 120 fans on 360 radiator sitting above the mobo, on one front, side and rear case fan) and this is the temps at 30 minutes.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is the current thermal pads on the heatsInk now.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Also, AFAIK, the VRMs on the Gaming 7 go to 135C before hitting thermal throttling, so it’s not like they are close to maxed out.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


Use Prime 29.8 build 3. 
29.4 build 8 is obsolete.


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## ottoore

Falkentyne said:


> Use Prime 29.8 build 3.
> 29.4 build 8 is obsolete.


No avx-512 on coffee lake, it won' t change anything.


----------



## ezveedub

Now I have the Z390 Master is try out here soon, just need to get a COU now. Definitely bigger heatsinks and the thermal pads are the pink bubble gum version this time, lol









Have to see how this backplate works out as well. Would have been nice on the Z370 series. Seems like more like a dense foam than thermal pads at first look. 










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## Falkentyne

ottoore said:


> No avx-512 on coffee lake, it won' t change anything.


29.8 build 3 has important fixes and FFT optimizations with cache designed to work better with modern CPU's. Nothing to do with AVX512. It's also even better as a memory tester now due to FFT /cache and RAM usage.


----------



## ezveedub

Falkentyne said:


> Use Prime 29.8 build 3.
> 
> 29.4 build 8 is obsolete.




Been running for 30 minutes at stock 9700K settings.










Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## Falkentyne

ezveedub said:


> Been running for 30 minutes at stock 9700K settings.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


Nice. Any differences in temps and power usage compared to the older 29.4 build 8?


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## ezveedub

Falkentyne said:


> Nice. Any differences in temps and power usage compared to the older 29.4 build 8?




This Prime seems to run cooler than the one I ran this morning. About 4-5C lower, but could be the ambient temp of the room is cooler currently. Going to try overclocking the CPU and try some more tests soon. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## ottoore

Falkentyne said:


> 29.8 build 3 has important fixes and FFT optimizations with cache designed to work better with modern CPU's. Nothing to do with AVX512. It's also even better as a memory tester now due to FFT /cache and RAM usage.


He's testing vrm temp, not stability ( stock settings). Linx with latest linpack or linpack extreme would be a better choice.


----------



## ezveedub

Gonna see if the Z370 Gaming 7 VRMs get killed will a new weekend tenant living in place of the 9700K....this will eventually reside in a Z390 Master though. 










****This test is currently on hold...as the 9900k appears to be too much for the Seasonic Prime 750 PSU I have this Gaming 7 installed with. Will need to use a 1Kwatt PSU is appears as the PC shuts down & restarts right after running Prime95 even on stock settings every single time****

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## Wirerat

ezveedub said:


> ****This test is currently on hold...as the 9900k appears to be too much for the Seasonic Prime 750 PSU I have this Gaming 7 installed with. Will need to use a 1Kwatt PSU is appears as the PC shuts down & restarts right after running Prime95 even on stock settings every single time****
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


Im running a 9900k on z390 aorus pro with a seasonic g series 750 watt. I can run prime95 at stock with no issues at all. 

I can even run it with my oc but depending on settings it gets hot even under my loop. It can hit 300w at 5ghz all core no offsets during p95. 

When you say "stock" are the power limits in place? I see your 9700k at "stock" looks like its at 4.6ghz on all cores during that p95 run?

Stock on the 9900k should be running p95 at 3.6ghz to hold the 95 watt tdp. 

Anyways, if the new power supply fixes that shutdown there must be some kind of fault in it. My 750 watt seasonic manages my 9900k and 1080ti with overhead still left.


----------



## ezveedub

Wirerat said:


> Im running a 9900k on z390 aorus pro with a seasonic g series 750 watt. I can run prime95 at stock with no issues at all.
> 
> I can even run it with my oc but depending on settings it gets hot even under my loop. It can hit 300w at 5ghz all core no offsets during p95.
> 
> When you say "stock" are the power limits in place? I see your 9700k at "stock" looks like its at 4.6ghz on all cores during that p95 run?
> 
> Stock on the 9900k should be running p95 at 3.6ghz to hold the 95 watt tdp.
> 
> Anyways, if the new power supply fixes that shutdown there must be some kind of fault in it. My 750 watt seasonic manages my 9900k and 1080ti with overhead still left.


It wasn't the PSU unit, as I put in a EVGA 1000G+ unit and it was the same issue. As soon as Intel XTU or Prime95 with AVX was started, it completely shut off and rebooted every time. I then put the 9900K in the Aorus Master and it runs perfectly. And by this, it runs cooler than my 9700K on the Z370 Gaming 7. I ran this 9900K under Prime95 with AVX and it runs cool, VRMs & CPU. I literally ran this 9900K on a DeepCool Gammaxx 400 and it only went to 82C and never throttled in stock settings, 53C with no AVX. It was showing about 213watt CPU package in SIV. With my 9700K on the Z370 Gaming 7, it was at 90C throttling with the same air cooler and around 183watt CPU package in SIV. What I found is the Z370 Gaming 7 is applying more CPU voltage than the Z390 Aorus Master. It was sending too much to the 9900K and shutting it off. I have since changed the LLC setting on the Gaming 7 from Auto to standard, as I think the Auto setting is sending way too much voltage to 8core 9th Gen CPUs. The Z390 Master has less idle voltage from what I've seen and under load, its not even getting to 1.3v. Where the Gaming 7 would be above 1.3V underload on the same CPU. I have another Z390 Aorus Master coming, as I'm going to see what the 9700K runs on it compared to the Z370 Gaming 7. Reading online, it seems theres are few Z370 mobos that are applying too much CPU voltage with using 9th Gen 8 Core CPUs and I think that's the issue I'm running into.


----------



## 113802

No reason to upgrade my board.


----------



## Wirerat

ezveedub said:


> Wirerat said:
> 
> 
> 
> It wasn't the PSU unit, as I put in a EVGA 1000G+ unit and it was the same issue. As soon as Intel XTU or Prime95 with AVX was started, it completely shut off and rebooted every time. I then put the 9900K in the Aorus Master and it runs perfectly. And by this, it runs cooler than my 9700K on the Z370 Gaming 7. I ran this 9900K under Prime95 with AVX and it runs cool, VRMs & CPU. I literally ran this 9900K on a DeepCool Gammaxx 400 and it only went to 82C and never throttled in stock settings, 53C with no AVX. It was showing about 213watt CPU package in SIV. With my 9700K on the Z370 Gaming 7, it was at 90C throttling with the same air cooler and around 183watt CPU package in SIV. What I found is the Z370 Gaming 7 is applying more CPU voltage than the Z390 Aorus Master. It was sending too much to the 9900K and shutting it off. I have since changed the LLC setting on the Gaming 7 from Auto to standard, as I think the Auto setting is sending way too much voltage to 8core 9th Gen CPUs. The Z390 Master has less idle voltage from what I've seen and under load, its not even getting to 1.3v. Where the Gaming 7 would be above 1.3V underload on the same CPU. I have another Z390 Aorus Master coming, as I'm going to see what the 9700K runs on it compared to the Z370 Gaming 7. Reading online, it seems theres are few Z370 mobos that are applying too much CPU voltage with using 9th Gen 8 Core CPUs and I think that's the issue I'm running into.
> 
> 
> 
> Interesting stuff here. Thanks.
> 
> Is the z370 gaming 7 on the latest bios?
> 
> If you manually set the vcore for stock or a mild oc on the gaming 7 + 9900k does it have any issues?
Click to expand...


----------



## ezveedub

Wirerat said:


> ezveedub said:
> 
> 
> 
> Interesting stuff here. Thanks.
> 
> Is the z370 gaming 7 on the latest bios?
> 
> If you manually set the vcore for stock or a mild oc on the gaming 7 + 9900k does it have any issues?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Z370 Gaming 7 is on latest bios. I tried bios 10, 12 & 13. But only had bios 13 when I had the 9900K in it. Since I was debugging the 9900K and couldn’t get it to run the in the Gaming 7, it sits now in the Z390 Master and the 9700K is back in the Gaming 7. Would have to pull the waterblock and video card out since they are watercooled to swap CPUs. I’ll probably try some manual voltage settings soon. Have to figure out what voltage settings can be played with also in the bios, as I would like to drop the overall voltage the bios is trying to use across all situations, but just a fixed manual voltage.
> 
> I can say this about the Z390 Master, it’s VRMs run very cool with a 9900K on Prime 95...think it went to 48C max when I tested it Sunday night.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
Click to expand...


----------



## wingman99

ezveedub said:


> It wasn't the PSU unit, as I put in a EVGA 1000G+ unit and it was the same issue. As soon as Intel XTU or Prime95 with AVX was started, it completely shut off and rebooted every time. I then put the 9900K in the Aorus Master and it runs perfectly. And by this, it runs cooler than my 9700K on the Z370 Gaming 7. I ran this 9900K under Prime95 with AVX and it runs cool, VRMs & CPU. I literally ran this 9900K on a DeepCool Gammaxx 400 and it only went to 82C and never throttled in stock settings, 53C with no AVX. It was showing about 213watt CPU package in SIV. With my 9700K on the Z370 Gaming 7, it was at 90C throttling with the same air cooler and around 183watt CPU package in SIV. What I found is the Z370 Gaming 7 is applying more CPU voltage than the Z390 Aorus Master. It was sending too much to the 9900K and shutting it off. I have since changed the LLC setting on the Gaming 7 from Auto to standard, as I think the Auto setting is sending way too much voltage to 8core 9th Gen CPUs. The Z390 Master has less idle voltage from what I've seen and under load, its not even getting to 1.3v. Where the Gaming 7 would be above 1.3V underload on the same CPU. I have another Z390 Aorus Master coming, as I'm going to see what the 9700K runs on it compared to the Z370 Gaming 7. Reading online, it seems theres are few Z370 mobos that are applying too much CPU voltage with using 9th Gen 8 Core CPUs and I think that's the issue I'm running into.


I believe your on the right track. Core temperature is a good indicator with the same load. Intel's core on die temp sensor is more accurate in the upper limits.


----------



## asdkj1740

pgx is much solid this time, over the pg7

Phantom Gaming X 
12 phase vcore





Phantom Gaming 7 
8 phase vcore


----------



## KedarWolf

WannaBeOCer said:


> No reason to upgrade my board.


Cuz memory. 

Edit: Oh, can I ask you your CPU clocks? You have SpeedStep enabled and in CPU-Z it's downclocking. :h34r-smi

I think my CPU was throttling at 5.1GHz, this is 5GHz with much lower voltages, more in line with what a 9900k should do.


----------



## 113802

KedarWolf said:


> Cuz memory.
> 
> Edit: Oh, can I ask you your CPU clocks? You have SpeedStep enabled and in CPU-Z it's downclocking. :h34r-smi


That was completely at stock without enabling XMP. I believe the CPU was running at 3.6Ghz on all eight cores at stock with MCE disabled. Here's mine set to 5.1Ghz but the CPU runs at 5Ghz cause of some sort of AVX offset that I can't modify.


----------



## KedarWolf

WannaBeOCer said:


> That was completely at stock without enabling XMP. I believe the CPU was running at 3.6Ghz on all eight cores at stock with MCE disabled. Here's mine set to 5.1Ghz but the CPU runs at 5Ghz cause of some sort of AVX offset that I can't modify.


That's a really great score, you're getting what I'm getting on a modded Z170 board, I wouldn't upgrade either.

I'm going to run CineBench with HWInfo open to see if I'm throttling or anything though.


----------



## robertr1

9900k at 5ghz should be around 5300. @KedarWolf if you're getting lower scores at 5.1, try running the Intel XTU benchmark with hwinfo open. See if you get WHEA errors or if the benchmark produces lower numbers. That benchmark is pretty good at teasing out any instabilities.


----------



## KedarWolf

robertr1 said:


> 9900k at 5ghz should be around 5300. @KedarWolf if you're getting lower scores at 5.1, try running the Intel XTU benchmark with hwinfo open. See if you get WHEA errors or if the benchmark produces lower numbers. That benchmark is pretty good at teasing out any instabilities.


I was throttling, too much voltage for the test at 5.1GHZ, not throttling at 5GHz with a much lower voltage.

And that last bench at 5GHZ was 5318.


----------



## Imprezzion

How hard can I push a 9900K on a MSI MEG Z390 Ace. I basically know the answer is probably as much as my cooling allows but what if I ever get crazy and wanna do a good old DIce or LN2 run.. will the Ace run a 9900K on DIce clocks and voltages without puking VRM guts everywhere?


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## AlphaC

Imprezzion said:


> How hard can I push a 9900K on a MSI MEG Z390 Ace. I basically know the answer is probably as much as my cooling allows but what if I ever get crazy and wanna do a good old DIce or LN2 run.. will the Ace run a 9900K on DIce clocks and voltages without puking VRM guts everywhere?


It's using 12x Onsemi NTMFS4C029N+ NTMFS4C024N. So you're at the mercy of the VRM heatsinking on ambient cooling if you're using a lot of current. The official limit per Intel spec is 193A , across 12 high side/low side fets that is ~16A each which isn't ridiculously much for these mosfets if they are heatsinked and cooled.

From Onsemi's calculator and my own calculations I would expect just under 89% efficiency at 16A each. That's around 33W across the entire VRM. 

It should be fine as long as you aren't pushing excessive current and cooling it but the board was never a good buy at $290.

https://www.onsemi.com/pub/Collateral/NTMFS4C029N-D.PDF
https://www.onsemi.com/pub/Collateral/NTMFS4C024N-D.PDF


----------



## elmor

Finally managed to get some decent scope pictures of the load-line transients at different load-line levels and switching frequencies. The measurement is from the differential CPU die-sense. The load is based on the CPU interrupts occurring every ~16ms while idle in BIOS.

Based on the waveforms, the ideal LLC would be around Level 3 where your undershoot matches the load voltage and there's not much overshoot to talk about. Increasing the switching frequency from 500 to 800 KHz doesn't seem to make much difference.

*Measurement setup*

ROG Maximus XI Gene
Intel Core i9-9900K @ 4.7G 1.200V
Siglent SDS1104X-E

*Summary*



















*FSW = 500 KHz*









































































*FSW = 800 KHz*


----------



## Imprezzion

AlphaC said:


> It's using 12x Onsemi NTMFS4C029N+ NTMFS4C024N. So you're at the mercy of the VRM heatsinking on ambient cooling if you're using a lot of current. The official limit per Intel spec is 193A , across 12 high side/low side fets that is ~16A each which isn't ridiculously much for these mosfets if they are heatsinked and cooled.
> 
> From Onsemi's calculator and my own calculations I would expect just under 89% efficiency at 16A each. That's around 33W across the entire VRM.
> 
> It should be fine as long as you aren't pushing excessive current and cooling it but the board was never a good buy at $290.
> 
> https://www.onsemi.com/pub/Collateral/NTMFS4C029N-D.PDF
> https://www.onsemi.com/pub/Collateral/NTMFS4C024N-D.PDF


Thanks for the info. Only reason I got this specific board is because I need MSI Mystic Sync to sync all my RGB and this was available secondhand for a reasonable price including the 9900K. I was planning on a 9700K but this price was too good.

I run just a CM ML360R 360 aio for daily so probably not going to get very far. Previous owner ran 5.1Ghz HT on 1.33v load with no AVX offset. I would like to be able to run that 24/7 on these VRM lol.

But, I do plan on playing on a LAN with some DIce overclocking again and I wanna know if this thing can bench 6Ghz + all core ~1.60-1.65v without nuking the VRM...


----------



## AlphaC

Depends on what you are benching , it will throttle itself if you do something insane anyhow.


CPU freq on LN2: https://hwbot.org/submission/4092461_stingeryar_cpu_frequency_core_i9_9900k_6547.58_mhz

CBR15 6GHz LN2 : https://hwbot.org/submission/4092535_stingeryar_cinebench___r15_core_i9_9900k_2576_cb
PCmark10 on LN2:https://hwbot.org/submission/4136336_kaidtor_pcmark10_core_i9_9900k_6298_marks


X265 (*AVX*) on water (@5.14GHz) https://hwbot.org/submission/411043...65_benchmark___1080p_core_i9_9900k_66.888_fps

XTU on AIO (@5.13GHz): https://hwbot.org/submission/4163954_gunslingerx64_xtu_core_i9_9900k_3526_marks
GB4 multicore on water (@5.1GHz): https://hwbot.org/submission/4111305_stingeryar_geekbench4___multi_core_core_i9_9900k_37548_points


The 4c029N high side fet isn't that quick so I wouldn't expect any miracles with it. If I were in your position I would have picked up something from Asus (Z390-A and up), Asrock (Taichi especially since it uses TI NexFETs with less than half the rise time), or Gigabyte (Aorus Pro and up) as they use powerstages with integrated drivers or powerblocks.





elmor said:


> Finally managed to get some decent scope pictures of the load-line transients at different load-line levels and switching frequencies. The measurement is from the differential CPU die-sense. The load is based on the CPU interrupts occurring every ~16ms while idle in BIOS.
> 
> Based on the waveforms, the ideal LLC would be around Level 3 where your undershoot matches the load voltage and there's not much overshoot to talk about. Increasing the switching frequency from 500 to 800 KHz doesn't seem to make much difference.
> 
> *Measurement setup*
> 
> ROG Maximus XI Gene
> Intel Core i9-9900K @ 4.7G 1.200V
> Siglent SDX1104X-E
> 
> *Summary*



Wouldn't it be better to test with MCE-like clocks? I don't think anyone sane buying a $400 Gene is going to be running 4.7GHz @ 1.2V. Maybe 5.0-5.1GHz with AVX offset.


Also is that a typo? Should be SDS1104X-E, no? 



Good to see some results though


----------



## Falkentyne

elmor said:


> Spoiler
> 
> 
> 
> Finally managed to get some decent scope pictures of the load-line transients at different load-line levels and switching frequencies. The measurement is from the differential CPU die-sense. The load is based on the CPU interrupts occurring every ~16ms while idle in BIOS.
> 
> Based on the waveforms, the ideal LLC would be around Level 3 where your undershoot matches the load voltage and there's not much overshoot to talk about. Increasing the switching frequency from 500 to 800 KHz doesn't seem to make much difference.
> 
> *Measurement setup*
> 
> ROG Maximus XI Gene
> Intel Core i9-9900K @ 4.7G 1.200V
> Siglent SDX1104X-E
> 
> *Summary*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *edit*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
> *FSW = 500 KHz*
> 
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> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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> 
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> 
> *FSW = 800 KHz*


Sweet Mother of God.
That Siglent looks so much better than the Rigol and that scope TIN (on the gamersnexus video with Steve) had with the GPU loadline thing!
Thank you Elmor!

With you and buildzoid's video, this is scope heaven !
*edit*
Just read your post again.
Those spikes and dips are just sitting idle in the BIOS?

Oh dear... 80mv dip at LLC8 at idle... :/
The dip with prime95 FMA3 running would probably by guessing be close to 150mv (!!)
That's scary....


----------



## Falkentyne

AlphaC said:


> Depends on what you are benching , it will throttle itself if you do something insane anyhow.
> 
> 
> CPU freq on LN2: https://hwbot.org/submission/4092461_stingeryar_cpu_frequency_core_i9_9900k_6547.58_mhz
> 
> CBR15 6GHz LN2 : https://hwbot.org/submission/4092535_stingeryar_cinebench___r15_core_i9_9900k_2576_cb
> PCmark10 on LN2:https://hwbot.org/submission/4136336_kaidtor_pcmark10_core_i9_9900k_6298_marks
> 
> 
> X265 (*AVX*) on water (@5.14GHz) https://hwbot.org/submission/411043...65_benchmark___1080p_core_i9_9900k_66.888_fps
> 
> XTU on AIO (@5.13GHz): https://hwbot.org/submission/4163954_gunslingerx64_xtu_core_i9_9900k_3526_marks
> GB4 multicore on water (@5.1GHz): https://hwbot.org/submission/4111305_stingeryar_geekbench4___multi_core_core_i9_9900k_37548_points
> 
> 
> The 4c029N high side fet isn't that quick so I wouldn't expect any miracles with it. If I were in your position I would have picked up something from Asus (Z390-A and up), Asrock (Taichi especially since it uses TI NexFETs with less than half the rise time), or Gigabyte (Aorus Pro and up) as they use powerstages with integrated drivers or powerblocks.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wouldn't it be better to test with MCE-like clocks? I don't think anyone sane buying a $400 Gene is going to be running 4.7GHz @ 1.2V. Maybe 5.0-5.1GHz with AVX offset.
> 
> 
> Also is that a typo? Should be SDS1104X-E, no?
> 
> 
> 
> Good to see some results though


Do you remember those +200mv/-200mv spikes on buildzoid's video which occured when he thermal throttled?
Thermal throttling causes the same worst case transients as an AVX offset.

Those are what happens when an AVX offset gets triggered during a stress test.
Because the PLL's go to sleep and then awaken at the new frequency, creating a nightmare if the caps are charged with high current.

https://rog.asus.com/forum/showthread.php?106375-MCE-explanations-and-others&highlight=explanations


----------



## Luck100

Falkentyne said:


> Do you remember those +200mv/-200mv spikes on buildzoid's video which occured when he thermal throttled?


200mV?! You have a link for that?


----------



## Falkentyne

Luck100 said:


> 200mV?! You have a link for that?


Close to the end of this video where he's reaching 100C


----------



## Imprezzion

AlphaC said:


> Depends on what you are benching , it will throttle itself if you do something insane anyhow.
> 
> 
> CPU freq on LN2: https://hwbot.org/submission/4092461_stingeryar_cpu_frequency_core_i9_9900k_6547.58_mhz
> 
> CBR15 6GHz LN2 : https://hwbot.org/submission/4092535_stingeryar_cinebench___r15_core_i9_9900k_2576_cb
> PCmark10 on LN2:https://hwbot.org/submission/4136336_kaidtor_pcmark10_core_i9_9900k_6298_marks
> 
> 
> X265 (*AVX*) on water (@5.14GHz) https://hwbot.org/submission/411043...65_benchmark___1080p_core_i9_9900k_66.888_fps
> 
> XTU on AIO (@5.13GHz): https://hwbot.org/submission/4163954_gunslingerx64_xtu_core_i9_9900k_3526_marks
> GB4 multicore on water (@5.1GHz): https://hwbot.org/submission/4111305_stingeryar_geekbench4___multi_core_core_i9_9900k_37548_points
> 
> 
> The 4c029N high side fet isn't that quick so I wouldn't expect any miracles with it. If I were in your position I would have picked up something from Asus (Z390-A and up), Asrock (Taichi especially since it uses TI NexFETs with less than half the rise time), or Gigabyte (Aorus Pro and up) as they use powerstages with integrated drivers or powerblocks.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Wouldn't it be better to test with MCE-like clocks? I don't think anyone sane buying a $400 Gene is going to be running 4.7GHz @ 1.2V. Maybe 5.0-5.1GHz with AVX offset.
> 
> 
> Also is that a typo? Should be SDS1104X-E, no?
> 
> 
> 
> Good to see some results though


I had a Gigabyte Z390 Aorus Elite with a 9600K. That board was great but holy hell that BIOS was artrocious and the LLC was uncontrollable.. No way to get a voltage anywhere near stable in terms of differing loads.. Might have been a monday morning model but still. Got rid of it since a collegue wanted that set and i have my 7700K for daily still (on a MSI Z170A Gaming M7 which has seen a lot of abuse. a LOT. and is still going strong). 

I do love ASUS, always have, but i have a full RGB "show" build which uses a MSI RTX2080 Gaming X Trio. The only way to properly sync everything would be to go MSI for the board as well as it can sync with my case, GPU, RAM and cooler. 

Let me put it like this, what if i do decide to get an ASUS and trade my MSI RTX2080 for a ASUS one to keep the sync capabilities. Which ASUS board would be decent enough for at least a daily 5.1 @ 1.33v ish clock on a 9900K. Without throttling even in 30c ambients. I like looks a lot. The Z390-F is €190, the -E is €231, the Prime -A is €180 but the color scheme doesn't match my build at all.
Then there's the -H at €205 and the Maxi XI Hero at €287. I prefer the looks of the -E or -F Strix. Are either of those good enough.


----------



## AlphaC

I'm not sure on the STRIX boards but the main advantage of the Hero over the STRIX is the use of a heatpipe and 10K hour FP caps as well as debug LED: layout is more or less the same. Prime -A and STRIX are more or less the same other than audio , the powerstages are upped from 45A Onsemi ones to 50A Vishay ones.


I don't know that much about the RGB syncing stuff since I turn off all RGB features on my boards and peripherals but I can tell you that buying a STRIX GPU probably isn't worth the price premium over the MSI GPU. There's probably better ways to get things to be the same color though.


----------



## elmor

AlphaC said:


> Wouldn't it be better to test with MCE-like clocks? I don't think anyone sane buying a $400 Gene is going to be running 4.7GHz @ 1.2V. Maybe 5.0-5.1GHz with AVX offset.
> 
> 
> Also is that a typo? Should be SDS1104X-E, no?
> 
> 
> 
> Good to see some results though





Falkentyne said:


> Sweet Mother of God.
> That Siglent looks so much better than the Rigol and that scope TIN (on the gamersnexus video with Steve) had with the GPU loadline thing!
> Thank you Elmor!
> 
> With you and buildzoid's video, this is scope heaven !
> *edit*
> Just read your post again.
> Those spikes and dips are just sitting idle in the BIOS?
> 
> Oh dear... 80mv dip at LLC8 at idle... :/
> The dip with prime95 FMA3 running would probably by guessing be close to 150mv (!!)
> That's scary....


It's possible to test with tougher settings, but the point was to visualize how the transients look in practice and what impact different load-line levels has. With higher currents (frequency + voltage), the signal will look the same but have larger undershoot/overshoot. The load is periodical at 60 Hz due to CPU interrupts when running tasks like updating the GUI. It's difficult to get a good capture when running something like Prime95, the signal is too noisy and irregular. It's also not an instantaneous load as it takes time to prepare data sets, initialize threads etc.

In this test case, the load is only for ~150 µs. At Level 1 the load-line is set to 2.08 mohm, (1.200-1.060)/0.00208 = 67A load step.

I did a short re-test at 5.2 GHz with 1.500V set point, in this case the load step is (1.500-1.290)/0.00208 = 101A. I had to change the vertical scale to 50 mV/div for these measurements so the amplitude is scaled down by 2.5 times.




























edit: Yes, SDS1104X-E is correct.


----------



## Falkentyne

elmor said:


> It's possible to test with tougher settings, but the point was to visualize how the transients look in practice and what impact different load-line levels has. With higher currents (frequency + voltage), the signal will look the same but have larger undershoot/overshoot. The load is periodical at 60 Hz due to CPU interrupts when running tasks like updating the GUI. It's difficult to get a good capture when running something like Prime95, the signal is too noisy and irregular. It's also not an instantaneous load as it takes time to prepare data sets, initialize threads etc.
> 
> In this test case, the load is only for ~150 µs. At Level 1 the load-line is set to 2.08 mohm, (1.200-1.060)/0.00208 = 67A load step.
> 
> I did a short re-test at 5.2 GHz with 1.500V set point, in this case the load step is (1.500-1.290)/0.00208 = 101A. I had to change the vertical scale to 50 mV/div for these measurements so the amplitude is scaled down by 2.5 times.
> 
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> edit: Yes, SDS1104X-E is correct.


Thank you very much for your hard work, Elmor.


----------



## Luck100

elmor said:


> It's possible to test with tougher settings, but the point was to visualize how the transients look in practice and what impact different load-line levels has. With higher currents (frequency + voltage), the signal will look the same but have larger undershoot/overshoot. The load is periodical at 60 Hz due to CPU interrupts when running tasks like updating the GUI. It's difficult to get a good capture when running something like Prime95, the signal is too noisy and irregular. It's also not an instantaneous load as it takes time to prepare data sets, initialize threads etc.
> 
> In this test case, the load is only for ~150 µs. At Level 1 the load-line is set to 2.08 mohm, (1.200-1.060)/0.00208 = 67A load step.
> 
> I did a short re-test at 5.2 GHz with 1.500V set point, in this case the load step is (1.500-1.290)/0.00208 = 101A. I had to change the vertical scale to 50 mV/div for these measurements so the amplitude is scaled down by 2.5 times.


Great stuff elmor! What's the horizontal axis scale? 1 Microsecond per grid box?


----------



## elmor

Luck100 said:


> Great stuff elmor! What's the horizontal axis scale? 1 Microsecond per grid box?


Each division (grid box) is 20us horizontally and 50mV vertically (20mV in the first set).


----------



## Imprezzion

Well, the MSI Z390 Ace VRM seems plenty for 24/7 clocks at least.

I'm running a 9900K not delidded (yet) at 5.025Ghz core, 4.7Ghz cache, 1.315v with stock SA, IO and 1.36v VDIMM. LLC Level 5, didn't touch the response times of the DigitALL Power settings yet.

In Prime95 with AVX and FMA3 enabled on small FFT the CPU sits in the high 80's with a power draw of about 235-240w and VRM (MOS sensor in Hwmonitor) gets up to about 90c after 30 minutes and stays there. This is with totally zero airflow in the VRM sinks as the rad and fans covers them partially.

Gaming runs them around 60-65c MOS temp and high 60's for the CPU as well. (~150w load)

So far, no thermal issues.

EDIT: 5.025 is hard to get 100% stable so far as it seems to need a tad more for 100% stability. It BSOD's with a PAGE_FAULT after 10-15 min of Prime AVX/FMA3 and is also prime to giving WHEA errors in games. They will both go away at 1.33v but CPU gets up to 93c and that also makes it unstable due to heat. 

I'm settling in on 4.925Ghz @ 1.248v, 4.625Ghz cache, 3000Mhz RAM @ 12-15-15-35-400-1T with 24960 tREFI 1.36v and 0.960 SA 1.050 IO. Temps stay in the low 80's then. 

MOSFETS peak at 80c and stabilize at 78-79c according to the boards sensors. This is still with no airflow over them at all. If i point a fan at them they drop to high 60's.


----------



## KedarWolf

WannaBeOCer said:


> That was completely at stock without enabling XMP. I believe the CPU was running at 3.6Ghz on all eight cores at stock with MCE disabled. Here's mine set to 5.1Ghz but the CPU runs at 5Ghz cause of some sort of AVX offset that I can't modify.


This is with the Studio Nvidia drivers that do better with Cinebench.


----------



## chinobino

I have a 9900K and two motherboards, a Z370 with 4 vcore phase doublers with no current balancing and a Z390 with 5 vcore phase doublers with current balancing.

I would like to know how much sustained current draw each motherboard is capable of, assuming that the VRM heatsinks are capable of doing their job.

The problem is I have no idea how efficient either board's VRM is.

1. EVGA Z370 CLASSIFIED K

VCC Controller - Infineon IR35201 (4+2)
VCC Doubler - 4 x Infineon IR3599 (interleaving only, no current balancing)
VCC DrMOS - 8 x Infineon TDA88240 35A
VCC Inductor - Unknown

VCCGT Controller - Infineon IR35201 (4+2)
VCCGT DrMOS - 2 x Infineon TDA88240 35A
VCCGT Inductor - Unknown

VCCIO & VCCSA Controller - Infineon IR35204 (1 x VCSSA power phase & 1 x VCCIO power phase)
VCCIO & VCCSA DrMOS - 2 x Infineon TDA88240 35A
VCCIO & VCCSA Inductor - Unknown

VDDR Controller - uPI SEMI uP1537P single-phase PWM controller with integrated driver
VDDR MOSFET - 1 x ONSemi NTMSF4C024N Lowside MOSFET (Single N−Channel Power MOSFET 30 V, 76 A, 4.00mΩ)
VDDR MOSFET - 1 x ONSemi NTMFS4C029N Highside MOSFET (Single N−Channel Power MOSFET 30 V, 46 A, 5.88mΩ)
VDDR Inductor - Unknown

2. GIGABYTE Z390 UD

VCC Controller - Intersil ISL69138 (5+2) 
VCC Doubler - 5 x Intersil ISL6617A (with current balancing)
VCC Driver - 10 x Intersil ISL6625A
VCC Highside MOSFET - 10 x ONSemi 4C10N 46A
VCC Lowside MOSFET - 10 x ONSemi 4C06N 69A
VCC Inductor - 10 x Vishay PowerPak ~60A

VCCGT Controller - Intersil ISL69138 (5+2)
VCCGT Driver - 2 x Intersil ISL6596
VCCGT Highside MOSFET - 2 x ONSemi 4C10N (small package)
VCCGT Lowside MOSFET - 2 x ONSemi 4C06N (small package)
VCCGT Inductor - 2 x Vishay PowerPak ~60A

VCCIO & VCCSA Controller - 2 x Richtek RT8120D
VCCIO & VCCSA Lowside MOSFET - 2 x ONSemi 4C06N
VCCIO & VCCSA Highside MOSFET 2 x NIKOSEM PK6H6BA N-Channel Enhancement Mode MOSFET 30V 46A
VCCIO & VCCSA Inductor - Unknown

VDDR Controller - Richtek RT8120D
VDDR Lowside MOSFET - 3 x ONSemi 4C06N 30V 69A
VDDR Highside MOSFET 1 x NIKOSEM PK6H6BA N-Channel Enhancement Mode MOSFET 30V 46A
VDDR Inductor - 2 x Vishay Powerpak R50


----------



## AlphaC

The EVGA Z370 one is markedly better. TDA88240 35A is a top tier powerstage albeit in 35A rating (some of the best are the TDA21472 70A). 4C10N+4C06N are run of the mill powerpaks (discrete high + low mosfet)

Powerstages tend to be around 90-92% efficient at the 35A tier, while that 4C10N+4C06N solution will be around 88-89% at best (and that doesn't count the driver losses).

Current balance is achieved at the PWM side for the EVGA board via the IR35201 PWM.


To be fair though, the Z390 UD is a budget level board, the Z370 Classified is a top tier from EVGA (supposed to be on par with at least upper midrange from other vendors such as Z370 Hero / Taichi / Aorus Pro).


----------



## chinobino

Thank you for your fast and detailed reply and the notes on efficiency, I should have checked the data sheet for the IR35201 regarding current balancing.

Do you have any idea how much sustained current each board could pull from the PSU?

Cheers.


----------



## AlphaC

How much power you can draw is also directly related to how well the power delivery is cooled. If you already own the boards, you can test when it starts reaching ~85-95°C (this is about as far as high as I would try since over that and you can expect to have greatly deteriorated component lifespans). 105°C is basically out of the question and 120°C typically trips throttling or shutdown.


Intel spec is 193A max for the i9-9900K.


----------



## chinobino

Unfortunately my water pump just died so I only have a Noctua NH-U12P from 2008 (remember those?) to test.

At 5GHz I have seen up to 212 W from the Package TDP in the Z390 UD @ 1.31 V drawing approx ~161 A but the CPU temps are unmanageable (99°C), I assume it can draw more current than this.

Not much point doing more testing until I get a better CPU heatsink.

I was wondering whether it's worth swapping boards as the Z390 seemed to be quite capable but as you mentioned it is not nearly as efficient as the Z370.


----------



## AlphaC

The NH-U12P runs around 1300RPM fan so it minorly skews the power delivery (and its cooling) as being better than it is versus a setup with a closed loop or open loop water cooling.


What are your VRM temps like when you draw 161A (VRM MOS in hwinfo64)? 161A should be around 2.3W of heat on each set of high+low side fets (i.e. which is manageable with airflow from case fans and the CPU heatsink). It's probably mid 80°C ?


When asdkj1740 (user here on OCN) tested the Z390UD pushing 220W with i7-9700K it hit 107°C and 84°C while drawing 170W (per hwinfo64). The Aorus boards such as Aorus Pro and above would not have this issue. This past week it was selling for $145 , but that sale ended so it's back to ~$190.


If you look at SiliconLottery QVL:


> ASRock Z390 Phantom Gaming 9
> ASRock Z390 Phantom Gaming X
> ASRock Z390 Taichi
> ASRock Z390 Taichi Ultimate
> ASUS Z370 ROG Maximus X Apex
> ASUS Z390 ROG Maximus XI Apex
> ASUS Z390 ROG Maximus XI Code
> ASUS Z390 ROG Maximus XI Extreme
> ASUS Z390 ROG Maximus XI Gene
> ASUS Z390 ROG Maximus XI Hero
> ASUS Z390 ROG Maximus XI Formula
> Gigabyte Z390 Aorus Elite
> Gigabyte Z390 Aorus Xtreme
> Gigabyte Z390 Aorus Master
> Gigabyte Z390 Aorus Pro
> Gigabyte Z390 Aorus Ultra
> Gigabyte Z390 Designare



lowest priced board on there is Aorus Elite (which generally isn't worth the $10-15 cost savings over Aorus Pro due to heatpiping , capacitor difference, and the rear USB 3.1 gen 2 type C) and Asrock Taichi around $210


----------



## chinobino

OK, some more testing with the Gigabyte Z390 UD @ 5GHz CPU with no AVX offset using the NH-U12P with the Noctua NF-P12 fan @ 1342 RPM and another fan on the back @ 1885 RPM for push-pull.

I extended Tj max to 115°C in the BIOS.

CPU-Z stress test (non-AVX)
Package TDP - 170 W
Vcore (VR OUT) - 1.33 V
CPU Temp - 93°C
MOS VRM - 76°C
Power Draw - ~127 A

CPU-Z AVX2 beta stress test
Package TDP - 188 W
Vcore (VR OUT) - 1.34 V
CPU Temp - 94°C
MOS VRM - 80°C
Power Draw - ~140 A

Cinebench R15 (non-AVX)
Package TDP - 212 W
Vcore (VR OUT) - 1.33 V
CPU Temp - 94°C
MOS VRM - 72°C
Power Draw - ~159 A

Cinebench R20 AVX2
Package TDP - 227 W
Vcore (VR OUT) - 1.33 V
CPU Temp - 106°C
MOS VRM - 83°C
Power Draw - ~170 A

AIDA64 FPU test AVX2
Package TDP - 256 W
Vcore (VR OUT) - 1.31 V
CPU Temp - 115°C Thermal Throttling (PROCHOT 115°C)
MOS VRM - 80°C
Power Draw - ~195 A <--- exceeding Intel spec. whilst throttling

I stopped the AIDA64 FPU test shortly after it hit Tj max (it took about 30 secs), no point in risking degrading the CPU (or killing it) so I don't know where the MOS VRM would have stabilised.

The new NH-U12A looks enticing.


----------



## AlphaC

Just remembered the hardwareunboxed people tested this:


----------



## Imprezzion

I'm still very pleasantly surprised with the MOSFET temps on my MSI Z390 ACE which as we all know isn't "bad" per sè but not really good either.

It manages to keep MOSFET temps at about 83-85c with zero airflow (AIO and it's blocking half the heatsinks) with a 9900K 5Ghz no offset 1.284v VR VOut drawing about 270w. CPU is running high 80's in AVX Prime so doesn't throttle at all. Didn't note down the Amperage unfortunately.

I'm not running that daily tho. Daily usage is at 4.825Ghz 1.140v VR VOut (1.219v in CPU-Z / BIOS) LLC Level 4.

This runs around 245w with the CPU running mid 70's and keeps MOSFET in AVX at around 76-78c and in normal usage like gaming around 65c ish.

I do have one question for you guys tho. Stuff like VCCIO and VCCSA, do they run off the CPU VRM? I am running very high voltages in those for my RAM OC (1.35v SA 1.26v IO) so they might not exactly help in VRM temps if they run off of the same MOSFET's.


----------



## br0da

For VCCIO and VCCSA there are dedicated VRMs on your board.


----------



## Imprezzion

br0da said:


> For VCCIO and VCCSA there are dedicated VRMs on your board.


Good to know. We'll see how long the Ace can last with a 5Ghz (or maybe even more) OC on a 9900K once I can get rid of the AIO for custom water and delid the poor thing hehe. Might have to somehow rig up some cooling for the MOSFET's tho. I'll zip tie a 120mm fan in front of them somehow.


----------



## AlphaC

Since you're in NL , this might be a good read:
https://nl.hardware.info/artikel/88...rd-is-echt-8-core-waardig#benchmarks-vrm-test


----------



## Imprezzion

AlphaC said:


> Since you're in NL , this might be a good read:
> https://nl.hardware.info/artikel/88...rd-is-echt-8-core-waardig#benchmarks-vrm-test


I know that review but they tested about every single MSI board except for the Ace. However, the weaker Gaming Edge already posts decent results. 

I know I should've gone for a Gigabyte Aorus Pro but I needed MSI for Mystic Sync RGB for the showbuild so yeah.. not much choice with the godlike being as expensive as it is.


----------



## asdkj1740

good to see more and more new b365 mobos come with better vrm solution as a whole.
9700f is near to come to the channel, we need strong vrm to handle these power hungry cpus, we are talking about 170~200w if 9900f also arrivied.

gigabyte b365m elite
4+2 design
ISL95866
4*(1h2l) vcore DIRECT LOL
1h2l=4c10+4c06*2

i like the heatsink! well done gigabye!
and 1.5mm thickness confirmed!


----------



## sdvuh

Hello! 
I have Aorus z370 gaming 7 with 8700K and i want to upgrade to 9900KS. Will it good idia on z370 gaming 7?
And one more question. Whats better: ISL99227B or ISL99227?


----------



## Imprezzion

I did a quick 10 minute temperature test (this is the point on which temps equalize in my rig, they don't go higher even if i run 10+ hours) as i was playing with my RAM OC and these are the definitive results for the following combo:

Prime95 29.8 AVX enabled Smallest FFT FMA3 on. Ambients about 27-28c. 

- i9 9900K 
4.925Ghz core, 4.525Ghz cache, Auto + Offset 0.005v, LLC Level 4 keeps VR VOut the flattest while keeping a slight drop which i prefer so it never overvolts, 1.152v VR-VOut load 1,170v idle, CPU-Z reading much higher, 1.258v. It can run way higher but my CPU cooler won't really allow higher clocks unless i delid it or go full custom water (or both).

- MSI Z390 MEG ACE
1.380v VCCSA, 1.340v VCCIO. CM MF120R ARGB fan pointed at the VRM and another one pointed at the RAM.

- Corsair H110i GTX (pre-rebrand H115i v2) 
Push-pull CM MF140R ARGB fans push-pull and using Prolimatech PK-3 as TIM.

- 2x8GB Corsair Vengeance RGB 3466CL16 Samsung B-Die
4220Mhz 17-17-17-34-280-2T @ 1.55v. 

Running about 155A and 210W and this keeps the VRM and MOSFETS in the mid 70's fully loaded. Without the extra fan pointed on the VRM they go to the mid 80's\

Running games and what not runs VRM / MOSFET around 60-65c. 

It's not "good" honestly. Not for a €230 board which is way more expensive then like, a Aorus Pro. Or even a Taichi. I mean, it's managable and this is exactly the board i needed for the "show" part of the build but still, i expected more from MSI.


----------



## AlphaC

Imprezzion , what did you expect? The components are at the mercy of the heatsink. Not sure if it was on this thread or another one but I wrote that it's a lot easier to fix a BIOS software issue or a heatsink thermal pad contact issue than a VRM component issue.


You can waterblock / monoblock / aftermarket heatsink a badly heatsinked design but the best you can do with a well heatsinked cheaper design is hope to not hit the thermal limits of your heatsinking/waterblocking.


At launch I think the MSI Ace was ~$300 USD versus the Taichi which was something along the lines of $240 and Aorus Pro ~$190.


----------



## Imprezzion

AlphaC said:


> Imprezzion , what did you expect? The components are at the mercy of the heatsink. Not sure if it was on this thread or another one but I wrote that it's a lot easier to fix a BIOS software issue or a heatsink thermal pad contact issue than a VRM component issue.
> 
> 
> You can waterblock / monoblock / aftermarket heatsink a badly heatsinked design but the best you can do with a well heatsinked cheaper design is hope to not hit the thermal limits of your heatsinking/waterblocking.
> 
> 
> At launch I think the MSI Ace was ~$300 USD versus the Taichi which was something along the lines of $240 and Aorus Pro ~$190.


I just hoped this board would be enough for delid / water @ 5.2. And honestly, I don't really know where the weaknesses are for the Ace, is it a bad / cheap design with good heatsinks or a good design with bad heatsinks?

Luckily EK has a monoblock for the Ace... I plan to go full water anyway so might as well monoblock it..

https://www.ekwb.com/shop/ek-momentum-msi-z390-meg-ace-d-rgb-plexi


----------



## AlphaC

If you look at the 4C029N high side fet on the MSI Ace it is rather slow :
rise time 26ns at V_GS =10V ; 34ns at V_GS=4.5V
fall time 4ns ; 7ns at V_GS=4.5V
total gate charge = 18.6nC at V_GS=10V , 9.7nC at V_GS=4.5V

In comparison to something like a TI NexFET :
Rise time at V_GS=4.5V = 17ns ; fall time = 2.3ns ; total gate charge 8.4nC typical

That's not even including the RDS(on) of the 4C024N low side fet which is massively worse. TI NexFET has 1.2mΩ at V_GS=4.5V while the 4C024N has 2.8mΩ at V_GS=10V and 4mΩ at V_GS=4.5V. This matters more for efficiency and heat.

Similar to when looking at PSUs:


 Efficiency / heat production
 Safeties : OVP/OCP/OTP
 Load regulation : if it has current monitoring and overvolt protection then it is more accurate
 Ripple (is it using 4 PWM phases, 6, or 8? Maybe even 12-14 if using the 4 month old Infineon PWM that debuted on Gigabyte X570 Master/Xtreme)
 Transient performance / switch time : if it's using discrete mosfets is it using a fast doubler to double PWM ?
 There's no crossload as CPU gets its own power
 
So the MSI Ace is worse electrically even if you cool it. The power delivery on it doesn't belong on a $300 MSRP board, it has the same power delivery as their $150-180 board but with a better PWM and 2 more phases via doublers. That's why you see it discounted so heavily to $240 right now, since the power delivery's cost is more akin to a sub $200 board. The heatpiped heatsink alleviates some of the thermal inefficiencies but it won't solve any electrical transient / switching deficiencies.

From an engineering standpoint a board with powerstages is superior to it in every way because you also get schottky diode for light load efficiency as well as thermal/current monitoring. The TI NexFET powerblocks are an improvement in the electrical characteristics mainly so there's definitely load points where a 8 powerstage design from ASUS (such as Z390-A) will exceed it in efficiency despite only having 4 PWM phases. If you are looking for a board to watercool with a monoblock you're better off with a board that has a great VRM but a really poor heatsink design (see Gigabyte Z370 Gaming 7 as an example...).

P.S. MSI finally woke up and put 60A IR3555 powerstages on MSI X570 MEG Ace and put QN3111 powerblocks on their X570 Pro Carbon (albeit marred) sourced from their supplier for RTX 2070 though the Pro Carbon hasn't done heatsinking properly whatsoever.


----------



## Imprezzion

Clear explanation! Luckily I have an electronics background so I understand pretty well what you're explaining .

So, TL,DR version, it's not great especially for it's pricepoint but it won't nuke itself on a moderate OC either.

Would it help either temps or general stability to adjust some VRM settings in the DigitALL menu like frequencies and such? I remember ASUS Z77 boards loooved a higher switching frequency around 400-450Mhz for example.

I wonder what they did different on the Z170/Z270 Gaming M7 i had before this.. The Z170 M5 was terrible and couldn't even run 4.8 @ 1.3 on a 6700K without VRM throttling but the M7 ran as high as 5.2 @ 1.46 on a 7700K delidded direct-die cooled with no issues at all. Barely got to 65c MOSFET temps even stressed with AVX. That thing is a tank lol.


----------



## Lagahan

Quick question - Does the ISL69138 PWM chip on the Z370 Aorus Gaming 7 need any kind of active cooling? I just put an EK full cover block on (the Gigabyte z270 one lists my board as supported on their site) as I'm putting a 9900K in it and I heard that the VRM can get a bit hot with the stock heatsinks. Problem is the full cover block doesnt cover that chip whereas the original heatsink did.


----------



## AlphaC

The ISL69138 is the PWM controller, it normally shouldn't be getting hot. The bulk of the heat is at the switching mosfets (high side and low side) which are integrated into the powerstages.


----------



## Falkentyne

AlphaC said:


> The ISL69138 is the PWM controller, it normally shouldn't be getting hot. The bulk of the heat is at the switching mosfets (high side and low side) which are integrated into the powerstages.


Hi AlphaC. Time for school again 

What's the difference between a PWM controller and a mosfet ?
And is a "VRM" considered to be both of them combined?

Thank you!


----------



## AlphaC

The mosfet is the switch , the PWM is the pulse width modulation controller for the switch. To step down from 12V rail to your CPU voltage you're varying the width of the pulses (duty cycle). Because the current draw is high we can't use a low phase count: for example Intel max spec is 193A , you'd need a 4 phase at a bare minimum (~50A per phase).


PWM explanation: https://knowledge.ni.com/KnowledgeArticleDetails?id=kA00Z0000019OkFSAU


> A Pulse Width Modulation (PWM) Signal is a method for generating an analog signal using a digital source. A PWM signal consists of two main components that define its behavior: a duty cycle and a frequency. The duty cycle describes the amount of time the signal is in a high (on) state as a percentage of the total time of it takes to complete one cycle. The frequency determines how fast the PWM completes a cycle (i.e. 1000 Hz would be 1000 cycles per second), and therefore how fast it switches between high and low states. By cycling a digital signal off and on at a fast enough rate, and with a certain duty cycle, the output will appear to behave like a constant voltage analog signal when providing power to devices.


https://www.electronicdesign.com/po...onverters-solve-tough-power-design-challenges












Also good read: https://en.wikichip.org/wiki/voltage_regulator_module
*Key points*
1. "A multi-phase VRM works very much like the single-phase VRM described above but uses multiple such circuits in parallel - each phase handling a portion of the total current that the CPU or GPU requires."
2. "By overlapping the phases at an offset, we're still generating the same 1.2 operational voltage, but as one phase starts dropping in voltage, the next phase takes over. This also results in a much stable average voltage that is sent to the CPU because of the tighter voltage tolerance as a result of the smaller amplitude. "
3. " The more phases, the less the ripple effect is observed because there's reduction in the ripple wave amplitude and thus current."
4. "The use of doublers generally increases the costs because the motherboard now has double the amount of integrated circuits required but it reduces many things such as the load current on any given phase in a similar manner to a "true" multi-phase but without the benefits of the tighter voltage tolerance. It's also a much more common solution that is found on many motherboards that advertise 8 or 16 phases" ---- why you should look at PWM phases as well

5. "There are a few less desirable VRM implementations that can be found in the wild. One of the more common schemes is the use of a single PWM signal to drive two separate circuits This configuration is rather common and cheap because the clocking is only done by a single phase PWM. The doubling of the circuit results in more power as well as cooler running components and higher efficiency but it will not result in better voltage thresholds as true phases do."


This is why Z370 Taichi with 5 PWM phases was a great board. In comparison to the Z390 lineup it isn't as impressive since every vendor improved drastically. It's also why for Z390 the Aorus lineup was a bargain as all the boards used 6+ PWM phases with powerstages.


edit: if you go back a little while and look back before Z170 we had more improvements. For example Asrock Z170 OC Formula used 6 phase doubled to 12 TI NexFET, MSI had Z170A XPower Gaming Titanium / Z270 XPower Gaming Titanium with 5 phase doubled to 10 of 60A IR3555, Gigabyte's Z170X-SOC Force was expensive but had 8 phase doubled to 16 of 40A IR3553 powerstages , Aorus Z270X-Gaming 9 as well. Mainstream Z97 had some decent offerings such as $170 Z97 Extreme6 (6 doubled to 12 of TI NexFET albeit using "hybrid" rather than digital control) which is same as Z97 OC Formula. Even before that Gigabyte was first to market with 60A IR3550 powerstage , you had 6 of them for VCORE on the $185 Z77X-UP4 TH and 8 for VCORE on Z77X-UP5. This was downgraded to 40A IR3553 in Z87 but there were sixteen of them for VCORE to power a 4 core on a $190 board and the $160 Z87X-UD3H used 8x IR3553 for VCORE as well.


The largest innovation that has happened since Z77/Z87 is probably the introduction of Infineon 16 phase PWM on X570 Aorus Master and X570 Aorus Xtreme , which eliminates the phase doubler part of the equation when you surpass 8 phases.


----------



## Falkentyne

Spoiler






AlphaC said:


> The mosfet is the switch , the PWM is the pulse width modulation controller for the switch. To step down from 12V rail to your CPU voltage you're varying the width of the pulses (duty cycle). Because the current draw is high we can't use a low phase count: for example Intel max spec is 193A , you'd need a 4 phase at a bare minimum (~50A per phase).
> 
> 
> PWM explanation: https://knowledge.ni.com/KnowledgeArticleDetails?id=kA00Z0000019OkFSAU
> https://www.electronicdesign.com/po...onverters-solve-tough-power-design-challenges
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dqv2UoSEmCY
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQXFlU5rTfs
> 
> 
> Also good read: https://en.wikichip.org/wiki/voltage_regulator_module
> *Key points*
> 1. "A multi-phase VRM works very much like the single-phase VRM described above but uses multiple such circuits in parallel - each phase handling a portion of the total current that the CPU or GPU requires."
> 2. "By overlapping the phases at an offset, we're still generating the same 1.2 operational voltage, but as one phase starts dropping in voltage, the next phase takes over. This also results in a much stable average voltage that is sent to the CPU because of the tighter voltage tolerance as a result of the smaller amplitude. "
> 3. " The more phases, the less the ripple effect is observed because there's reduction in the ripple wave amplitude and thus current."
> 4. "The use of doublers generally increases the costs because the motherboard now has double the amount of integrated circuits required but it reduces many things such as the load current on any given phase in a similar manner to a "true" multi-phase but without the benefits of the tighter voltage tolerance. It's also a much more common solution that is found on many motherboards that advertise 8 or 16 phases" ---- why you should look at PWM phases as well
> 
> 5. "There are a few less desirable VRM implementations that can be found in the wild. One of the more common schemes is the use of a single PWM signal to drive two separate circuits This configuration is rather common and cheap because the clocking is only done by a single phase PWM. The doubling of the circuit results in more power as well as cooler running components and higher efficiency but it will not result in better voltage thresholds as true phases do."
> 
> 
> This is why Z370 Taichi with 5 PWM phases was a great board. In comparison to the Z390 lineup it isn't as impressive since every vendor improved drastically. It's also why for Z390 the Aorus lineup was a bargain as all the boards used 6+ PWM phases with powerstages.
> 
> 
> edit: if you go back a little while and look back before Z170 we had more improvements. For example Asrock Z170 OC Formula used 6 phase doubled to 12 TI NexFET, MSI had Z170A XPower Gaming Titanium / Z270 XPower Gaming Titanium with 5 phase doubled to 10 of 60A IR3555, Gigabyte's Z170X-SOC Force was expensive but had 8 phase doubled to 16 of 40A IR3553 powerstages , Aorus Z270X-Gaming 9 as well. Mainstream Z97 had some decent offerings such as $170 Z97 Extreme6 (6 doubled to 12 of TI NexFET albeit using "hybrid" rather than digital control) which is same as Z97 OC Formula. Even before that Gigabyte was first to market with 60A IR3550 powerstage , you had 6 of them for VCORE on the $185 Z77X-UP4 TH and 8 for VCORE on Z77X-UP5. This was downgraded to 40A IR3553 in Z87 but there were sixteen of them for VCORE to power a 4 core on a $190 board and the $160 Z87X-UD3H used 8x IR3553 for VCORE as well.
> 
> 
> The largest innovation that has happened since Z77/Z87 is probably the introduction of Infineon 16 phase PWM on X570 Aorus Master and X570 Aorus Xtreme , which eliminates the phase doubler part of the equation when you surpass 8 phases.






Thank you very much, AlphaC.


----------



## Lagahan

Thanks AlphaC!


----------



## Imprezzion

The best boards I ever had in terms of practical results where my ASUS P8Z77-V Pro and MSI Z170 Gaming M7 (which I think has the MPower VRM setup?). Both of those boards handled anything I could throw at it including DICE benching CPU's at 1.65v+ with no issues at all.

And a special mention to my trusty Gigabyte X58 UD7 with factory waterblocks on the VRM. Absolute beast of a board.. it still runs a Xeon W3520 right now even tho it's on air.


----------



## Speedster159

I'm considering getting a Z390-E if I stay intel but I've been told that's "good enough"

What board would be better at or around the same price point?


----------



## Wirerat

On my Aorus Pro Vr loop1 was hitting 90c+ at higher vcore values with llc turbo. The vertical row of chokes was getting too hot to touch while stress testing. I assume that temp is related to those chokes. 

The vrm mos temp doesnt go above 60c. 

I had to make changes to my fan orientation to get 5.1ghz 1.38v to pass x264 stressor with out whea errors. Changing my top 360 rad to exhaust lowered the vr loop1 temps slightly but enough to stabilize the test.

I own two of these mobos. The other one is paired with a 9900kf. Results are the same above 1.35v llc turbo. That one is a better bin and does 5.2ghz so the POUT is higher which makes vr loop1 even hotter. 

When vr loop1 temps go above 90c whea errors start to appear on both machines. It happens at around 170-190 watts POUT. It will not throttle, it just starts to throw errors during x264 loops. 

Both rigs are under full custom loops. So there is less airflow directly over the mobos. 

My 24/7 oc on both rigs is only 5ghz so this is not really a limitation for me. 



View attachment 5_1564832921366.1yo.bmp


----------



## Imprezzion

Oh boy. I think i found the limit on the MSI Z390 MEG ACE.

I lapped my CPU and i'm getting better watercooling soon so testing a bit on 5.1Ghz 9900K @ 1.335v (1.248v VR VOut) this gives, with a 120mm fan at full speed on the VRM, still high 80's to low 90's on "VR Loop 1 and 2" and mid 80's on "MOSFET". CPU Socket stays a bit better around 70 but still.. Really seems like the VRM overall hits the thermal limitations of this design around 1.30-1.32v without extra cooling and even with a 120mm fan on it 1.35v is really the most it'll ever take without a full cover block (which exists from EK). 

The power draw isn't even that insane lol. It's doing about 185-190A at 1.248v VR VOut which is around the 230-240w range in Smallest FFT AVX enabled Prime95.

EDIT:

Problem solved. Bought a EK Phoenix 280, front mounted it as intake, put my top as 3x 120mm outtake, stuck a 140mm in front of the now unrestricted VRM heatsinks... 

This happened lol. Prime small FFT AVX @ 5.025 core 4.725 cache 1.325v BIOS (1.225v VR VOut) well over 240w sustained load and VRM and MOSFET never even got to 70c in 30 minutes. My problem was quite simple. The VRM heatsinks were so packed in behind the top mounted AIO that even with airflow from a fan there was nowhere for the heat to go and it created a massive hotspot... So, it does seem that for a MSI Z390 Ace, with good airflow, 250w+ can easily be maintained lol. It was all to blame on my terrible airflow setup.. i'm a bit ashamed now lol.


----------



## sdvuh

Aorus Master showed a better result than Maximus Extreme and Godlike in the der8auer test:








Does the Master really not deserve the "upper zone" with Apex, Xtreme, Godlike and others in the VRM table? https://www.overclock.net/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=250662&d=1548963030


----------



## AlphaC

sdvuh said:


> Aorus Master showed a better result than Maximus Extreme and Godlike in the der8auer test:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Does the Master really not deserve the "upper zone" with Apex, Xtreme, Godlike and others in the VRM table? https://www.overclock.net/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=250662&d=1548963030


I don't think anyone outside of Gigabyte HQ expected the Master to be as good as it was , pretty much it was expected to outperform the ROG Formula + Hero. The math suggests that at a max load per Intel spec of 193A that the Master is going to be < 2% less efficient than the Extreme & Gene (i.e. ~1.8W x 10 vs ~1.8W x 12 since IR3553 has a bit lower peak efficiency and minor doubler losses ; even if you normalize for 1.3V both of the powerstages have the same normalization factor of 1.05x). All that shows us is that the backplate and the finned VRM heatsink are doing extremely well.

See this lighter load Cinebench scenario as well:
https://nl.hardware.info/artikel/88...w-+-vrm-test-welk-bord-is-echt-8-core-waardig

and HWUnboxed tests


Spoiler











Z390 Aorus Pro also outperforms the ROG Extreme and ROG Hero as well as MSI Godlike in terms of rear PCB temp at lower loads. It is quite possible that it outperforms the Hero at higher loads too since it is using 12x Vishay SiC634 (ie. 6 PWM phases doubled to 12) instead of 8x Vishay SiC639 (4 PWM phases , no doublers) on ROG Maximus XI Hero.

The image was created before any full stack reviews were done which is why it reads "likely" product positioning. The last time I edited it was January 31,2019 as you will note in the bottom of the image. At this late in the product lifecycle I don't think that anyone needs any additional justification to buy the Aorus Master or Aorus Pro (which has been as low as $145), honestly given that the ROG Hero is $280. One thing I did observe is that the ~$200 Taichi (maybe I was a bit too generous with it putting it at the bottom of the green area but it doesn't really deserve to lump in with un-heatpiped STRIX boards with 4 PWM phases ; it's still a safe choice) and Z390-A both underperformed a bit (probably due to low fin area). Z390 Phantom ITX performed better than expected at low load , but I have my doubts on a load in the order of 200W+.


----------



## sdvuh

AlphaC
Thank you for the detailed answer!


----------



## robertr1

In my oc and learning adventures, it seems there's a relationship between VID and oc potential. I've been messing around oc'ing my 9900k (with HT off) and noticed something interesting over the past 2 days. Running the same tests and daily usage, my VID doesn't really go up much in relation to the vcore bump. I've gone from 5ghz to 5.3ghz and vcore bumped from 1.25 to 1.38 with llc high. So really everything's been pretty constant in between the system aside from the bump in frequency and vcore in bios. This is using static vcore. 

Questions I trying to answer:
Why is adding vcore not making the vid go up in a similar fashion? In the screenshots below, I went from 1.34v to 1.38v for vcore (in bios with llc high) but max vid only jumped up by .010v in relation. This is running the same workloads?
Is LLC a static offset and not percent based? The vdroop difference is exactly the same ratio as the difference in the vcore bump I give it each time.

Screenshots below are HWinfo @ 5.2 and 5.3 after putting different loads on the system (real bench, cinebench, heavy desktop usage, cpuz, other benches and stress tests). Cinebench R15 @ 5.3 showing that system is scaling appropriately. 

cpu z validation so you can see the full specs: https://valid.x86.fr/p1617w


----------



## Falkentyne

robertr1 said:


> In my oc and learning adventures, it seems there's a relationship between VID and oc potential. I've been messing around oc'ing my 9900k (with HT off) and noticed something interesting over the past 2 days. Running the same tests and daily usage, my VID doesn't really go up much in relation to the vcore bump. I've gone from 5ghz to 5.3ghz and vcore bumped from 1.25 to 1.38 with llc high. So really everything's been pretty constant in between the system aside from the bump in frequency and vcore in bios. This is using static vcore.
> 
> Questions I trying to answer:
> Why is adding vcore not making the vid go up in a similar fashion? In the screenshots below, I went from 1.34v to 1.38v for vcore (in bios with llc high) but max vid only jumped up by .010v in relation. This is running the same workloads?
> Is LLC a static offset and not percent based? The vdroop difference is exactly the same ratio as the difference in the vcore bump I give it each time.
> 
> Screenshots below are HWinfo @ 5.2 and 5.3 after putting different loads on the system (real bench, cinebench, heavy desktop usage, cpuz, other benches and stress tests). Cinebench R15 @ 5.3 showing that system is scaling appropriately.
> 
> cpu z validation so you can see the full specs: https://valid.x86.fr/p1617w


Base VID is based on the CPU core ratio (assuming cache is 300 mhz lower than core, but not closer). Base VID will stop scaling once the highest turbo boost (1/2 core) multiplier is used, because the CPU's are not calibrated to exceed the max turbo boost. (so this is x50 for 9900K and x49 for 9700K), and at most lower multiplier steps, the base VID will decrease sharply at most steps, down to 800 mhz. Setting cache closer than 300 mhz or even higher than core ratio skews this.

VID also decreases by 1.5mv every 1C temp drop below 100C, so a 150mv range between 0C to 100C. This is called "Thermal Velocity Boost" (not the same thing as the laptop version, which affects turbo boost rather than VID), and this stops happening below a x40 multiplier.

AC Loadline is the CPU's power supply based on resistance (mOhms), which is used as the VRM target voltage signal on Auto (or DVID) voltages. This is based on load (current), so the VID target request will be boosted higher at load than at idle, and the heavier the load, the higher the target voltage request will be. This is limited to a maximum of 1.520v (Max VID on the Intel spec doc sheet). Now if this sounds like loadline calibration in reverse, it does seem like it indeed. But the difference is that this functions on the CPU's *requested* voltage, not on the vdroop on the requested voltage that the VRM is actually supplying (which is called VRM loadline, or "DC Loadline"). AC loadline (as far as I know) does not have a transient response (voltage spike/drop) penalty like VRM loadline does, because this is just a base voltage request. Although it's probably impossible to read the data what the VRM is receiving from the CPU in real time (oscilloscope speed here), but it can't be anywhere near what happens with the VRM voltage line (with all the transients at higher loadline calibration). Think of this as the "Fixed" voltage changing dynamically based on current draw. Since vdroop is going to be a nice huge healthy level (if LLC is left on the lowest level), you gain a huge stability benefit here.

The VRM ignores this on fixed override voltages but VID is still affected. This bias after AC Loadline factored in is the target voltage the CPU will request from the VRM directly. DVID offset will then be directly applied to this (+/-) if used.

If you want to see the theoretical VID request the CPU is doing, (there are no drawbacks to this--its fully safe), set DC Loadline manually to 1 (0.01 mOhms) in Internal VR Settings. You may be shocked at what you see.

While VRM Loadline is "DC" Loadline, the Internal VR "DC Loadline" DOES NOT CONTROL VDROOP FROM THE VRM!! It only controls VID droop on the CPU VID! The VRM IGNORES THIS VALUE! That's because DC Loadline is used for POWER MEASUREMENTS. The Intel spec documentation sheet states this. Basically, DC Loadline affects "VID" in the exact same way that VRM Loadline affects Vcore (VR VOUT). DC Loadline is used to calculate CPU Package Power because CPU Package Power is equal to VID * Amps.

VRM DC Loadline is actually "Loadline Calibration". That controls vdroop from the VRM and is shown as VR VOUT accurately. Unfortunately, there are only presets which don't show the mOhms values, but they are mOhms values. Standard and Normal are 1.6 mOhms. If VRM DC Loadline is set to the same value as DC Loadline (VR settings), when on auto vcore, VID and VR VOUT will be within 5 mv of each other. Using DVID offsets will change VR VOUT but not VID (remember I told you that DC Loadline does not affect the VRM at all?)

As you can see, it is VERY unwise to use a high AC Loadline (1.6 mOhms is maximum specification for 8 core CFL) and a high VRM loadline (loadline calibration)--this will cause dangerous voltages on auto vcore. If you want to see why, do what I said above, which I will repeat again---set DC Loadline to 1 (0.01 mOhms) and watch the CPU VID.

On auto vcore, assuming you are very intelligent and kept maximum vdroop enabled (1.6 mOhms, Loadline calibration=Standard / Normal) on Auto vcore, you may notice that the CPU VID and VR VOUT (drop at load compared to idle, and as the temps rise (temps rise=current goes up), VID and VR VOUT drop even more. This is assuming you set DC Loadline to match VRM Loadline (so, DC Loadline=1.6 mOhms (160) if you have Vcore Loadline Calibration=Standard/Normal. LLC=Low is 1.3 mOhms, equal to DC Loadline=130).

But what was that about VID rising 1.5mv every 1C temp increase? (and VR VOUT should match VID on auto voltage, so if you set Vcore Auto, LLC=Standard, AC Loadline=160, DC Loadline=160 (1.6 mOhms), why is VID and VR VOUT dropping here?

That's because the VID is capped at 1.520v (again check the experiment with your fixed vcore, and DC Loadline set to 1), and its reaching that as soon as a load is put on the processor. This is BEFORE DC Loadline drops the VID afterwards. So the VID cannot rise past 1.520v as temps go up. Just vdroop (1.6 mOhms * Amps= vdroop in millivolts) keeps dropping the VID and VR VOUT if on auto voltage.

If SVID OFFSET is enabled, this allows VID to exceed 1.520v by up to 200mv (Intel doc sheets also specify this as "Offset capability" via a MSR (do NOT confuse this with DVID!!!!). So if this were enabled, you would see VR VOUT and VID *RISE* at load as temps go up, since the 1.520v cap is removed, so VID could slowly increase as temps goes up, up to 1.72v. SVID Offset is only useful when AC Loadline is set to a low value (like 90). This allows you to reduce your idle voltage quite a bit, while keeping the load voltage the same or similar, as having SVID Offset disabled and AC Loadline=160. Obviously it is DANGEROUS (once again) to use any sort of Vcore Loadline Calibration on auto voltages when AC Loadline is doing the voltage boosting work for you.


----------



## robertr1

Falkentyne said:


> The VRM ignores this on fixed override voltages but VID is still affected. This bias after AC Loadline factored in is the target voltage the CPU will request from the VRM directly. DVID offset will then be directly applied to this (+/-) if used.
> 
> If you want to see the theoretical VID request the CPU is doing, (there are no drawbacks to this--its fully safe), set DC Loadline manually to 1 (0.01 mOhms) in Internal VR Settings. You may be shocked at what you see.
> 
> On auto vcore, assuming you are very intelligent and kept maximum vdroop enabled (1.6 mOhms, Loadline calibration=Standard / Normal) on Auto vcore, you may notice that the CPU VID and VR VOUT (drop at load compared to idle, and as the temps rise (temps rise=current goes up), VID and VR VOUT drop even more. This is assuming you set DC Loadline to match VRM Loadline (so, DC Loadline=1.6 mOhms (160) if you have Vcore Loadline Calibration=Standard/Normal. LLC=Low is 1.3 mOhms, equal to DC Loadline=130).


That was really helpful! A lot of if it's still over my head I'm going to keep reading and learning. I did what you suggested and put some loads on it. It was crazy to watch the vid scale up with temp as you stated. This is back at 5.2ghz for cooling reasons btw. At 90c core load, the vid went upto 1.469 while the vrvout was around the same as before. 

Is this temp scaling the reason why chips get more headroom as you can keep them cooler? example, if my chip was running at 45c, the vid would drop per your scaling factor mentioned. Does this mean, I'd have theoretically more headroom to clock higher? The relationship part is the piece I can't get my head around.


----------



## Falkentyne

robertr1 said:


> That was really helpful! A lot of if it's still over my head I'm going to keep reading and learning. I did what you suggested and put some loads on it. It was crazy to watch the vid scale up with temp as you stated. This is back at 5.2ghz for cooling reasons btw. At 90c core load, the vid went upto 1.469 while the vrvout was around the same as before.
> 
> Is this temp scaling the reason why chips get more headroom as you can keep them cooler? example, if my chip was running at 45c, the vid would drop per your scaling factor mentioned. Does this mean, I'd have theoretically more headroom to clock higher? The relationship part is the piece I can't get my head around.


Thermal Velocity boost VID scaling has nothing to do with this directly, but obviously the higher the temp, the more voltage may be needed (increasing electrical signal strength) for stability. TVB is not any sort of 1:1 ratio for when a chip will be stable. Chips simply can operate at a faster frequency the cooler they are. Heat causes the electrical signal to degrade. You're best off googling that semiconductor question as it's been explained in far more detail than anything I can ever do (remember I'm a gamer).


----------



## AlphaC

> Between the overbuilt VRM and hefty heatsink, the ASUS ROG MAXIMUS XI HERO (WiFi) thwarted my best attempts to make it thermal throttle. It was a good ten degrees hotter than the ASRock Z390 Phantom Gaming X, the other Z390 board I have tested with this method. As both boards are far below their thermal limits, this is largely an arbitrary difference (the Phantom Gaming X is also US$40 more expensive).


https://www.techpowerup.com/review/asus-rog-maximus-xi-hero-wifi/15.html
5.1 GHz CPU, 3866 MHz Memory 
Load Power:233 W
VRM temp from graph ~69°C


Let's not forget he also tested the Phantom Gaming 7 at 5.1 GHz CPU, 3866 MHz Memory , which is going for ~$185:
https://www.techpowerup.com/review/asrock-z390-phantom-gaming-7/15.html
Load Power:254 W 
VRM Temperature:57.9°C

Phantom Gaming 9 ( 5.1 GHz CPU, 3866 MHz Memory ) :
https://www.techpowerup.com/review/asrock-z390-phantom-gaming-9/15.html
Load power 260 W
VRM temp: 50.0°C

Taichi (5.1 GHz CPU, 3733 MHz Memory): 
Load Power:251 W
VRM Temperature:52.0°C


----------



## CiTay

I have a MSI MEG Z390 ACE, and i've read a couple posts in this thread about its VRM with interest. Specifically, there was speculation about the CPU VRM switching frequency, which was thought to be a low 300 kHz to keep switching losses and temperature under control. But, the lower the switching frequency, the worse the transient response and the higher the ripple, in theory.




AlphaC said:


> ACE might perform on the Taichi level thermally but that's only if the heatsink is as good. Also that doesn't account for the switching frequency : the switching frequency on a powerblock or powerstage is typically 500kHz , which is nearly double that of a typical Powerpak implementation (~300kHz).
> 
> 
> If I had to take a guess then I would think the z390 Ace performs about as well as a z390 Taichi in terms of thermals but worse in terms of ripple (due to300 kHz default switching frequency vs 500kHz). With 160A output you're looking at anywhere from 1.2 to 2W of heat output per high side fet depending on switching frequency due to the high side fet being a slow switching one.





I can confirm that the VRM on the Z390 ACE isn't very efficient, i'm at about 40W power consumption in idle, that's with one HDD and three SSDs, an NVIDIA 1660 Ti, 9600K non-OC and 2x 8 GB DDR4 1.2V. With a more mid-range board, one would expect to be close to 30W with this configuration, or even slightly lower.

However, i don't think the default CPU VRM switching frequency is 300 kHz. In the BIOS, apart from AUTO, there is a range of 350 kHz, 400 kHz, 500 kHz, and so on up to 1000 kHz. When i manually set it to 350 kHz, power consumption in idle lowers by ~3W, as well as for any other loads, it's always around 3W less (measured with an energy meter). The VRM also stays cooler than before. Even at 400 kHz, i'm still getting a good 2W lower power draw than with AUTO setting.

This leads me to believe that MSI might use a switching frequency of 500 kHz by default, perhaps even a bit higher. I can't 100% confirm this yet, as i'm still stability testing at 400 kHz manual setting.

Question: When i can save power and have lower temps, and everything is stable, is there a reason NOT to use a 350 kHz VRM switching frequency? I don't plan to overclock (except add RAM that runs on DDR4-3200).



In this video about the Gigabyte Z390 Aorus Master with the same IR35201, the guy says that it doesn't make much sense to go below 400 kHz switching frequency:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6J7qnr0YNH8#t=11m54s (around 13:00 mins).
Then at 14:05 he says it might be best to just run it at 300 kHz switching frequency if that has the best VRM efficiency...




edit: Another thing, this guy here tested the Z390 ACE and used a thermal imaging camera to check MOS and cooler temperatures:
https://www.igorslab.media/msi-meg-z390-ace-im-test-nicht-ganz-godlike-aber-recht-solide-igorslab/3/

He says, there is an unusually high temperature delta between MOS and the cooler, up to 40°C difference with high overclocking. He could see almost 105°C near the MOS in high OC, but the cooler stays much... cooler. And the heatpipe stays suspiciously cool! He suspects they might have used a "hollow tube in heatpipe look" instead of a proper heatpipe, because based on other boards with heatpipes, the heatpipe should be much hotter with a maximum delta temp of 10°-20°C, but not way more than 40°C delta.

So in conclusion, this board seems overpriced. The VRM is capable, but not very efficient. The cooling is not the best either (and the coolers need a lot more fins in them, come on MSI!). Good thing i got the board for free.


----------



## chibi

With the mindset that Core is King -> Memory -> Cache in terms of overclocking performance. I would like to inquire about the ASUS Maximus Gene XI & Apex XI.

Does the Gene XI lack in the VRM department when compared with the Apex XI?

CPU to be used will be 9900K with full custom watercooling.


----------



## robertr1

chibi said:


> With the mindset that Core is King -> Memory -> Cache in terms of overclocking performance. I would like to inquire about the ASUS Maximus Gene XI & Apex XI.
> 
> Does the Gene XI lack in the VRM department when compared with the Apex XI?
> 
> CPU to be used will be 9900K with full custom watercooling.


Gene/Apex/Dark all trade blows at the top: https://hwbot.org/benchmark/cineben...Id=processor_5773&cores=8#start=0#interval=20


----------



## D-EJ915

chibi said:


> With the mindset that Core is King -> Memory -> Cache in terms of overclocking performance. I would like to inquire about the ASUS Maximus Gene XI & Apex XI.
> 
> Does the Gene XI lack in the VRM department when compared with the Apex XI?
> 
> CPU to be used will be 9900K with full custom watercooling.


From what I can tell the Gene and Extreme boards both have the same vrm. Since they are different boards there are probably some differences in performance like the Gene oc memory better but yeah. Apex XI has bigger VRM but also has no GPU output if you wanted that. I think in most cases you wouldn't really notice much difference to be honest so pick which board has features you like best.

https://www.overclock.net/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=250662&d=1548963030

I think my old apex ix looks better than the apex xi https://imgur.com/a/WWRUkCA


----------



## ahnafakeef

Aiming for 5GHz on all cores on a 9900K(/KF) cooled by a Cooler Master ML360 and I was looking at ASUS Maximus XI boards. But apparently they're not as good for overclocking? (Aorus Master for the price of the Hero is as good as Maximus XI Extreme?)

Will I benefit from a beefier VRM than on the Hero for my fairly not-so-ambitious overclock goals?


----------



## chibi

D-EJ915 said:


> From what I can tell the Gene and Extreme boards both have the same vrm. Since they are different boards there are probably some differences in performance like the Gene oc memory better but yeah. Apex XI has bigger VRM but also has no GPU output if you wanted that. I think in most cases you wouldn't really notice much difference to be honest so pick which board has features you like best.
> 
> https://www.overclock.net/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=250662&d=1548963030
> 
> I think my old apex ix looks better than the apex xi https://imgur.com/a/WWRUkCA



Will the Gene's VRM heatsink be enough to passively cool a 5.0 GHz 9900K under water?


----------



## bl4ckdot

chibi said:


> Will the Gene's VRM heatsink be enough to passively cool a 5.0 GHz 9900K under water?


More than enough. I have the same VRM on my Extreme, and Gene's heat sink should be more than capable to handle them.


----------



## robertr1

ahnafakeef said:


> Aiming for 5GHz on all cores on a 9900K(/KF) cooled by a Cooler Master ML360 and I was looking at ASUS Maximus XI boards. But apparently they're not as good for overclocking? (Aorus Master for the price of the Hero is as good as Maximus XI Extreme?)
> 
> Will I benefit from a beefier VRM than on the Hero for my fairly not-so-ambitious overclock goals?


For 5ghz, they're all fine. The problem with the 9900k is cooling the chip itself. You can get unlucky and get a poor OC'er that has issue getting to 5ghz so don't just assume you're guaranteed a 5ghz all core performer. 

If was getting an Asus board in the Maximus line, I'd personally get an Apex.


----------



## ahnafakeef

robertr1 said:


> For 5ghz, they're all fine. The problem with the 9900k is cooling the chip itself. You can get unlucky and get a poor OC'er that has issue getting to 5ghz so don't just assume you're guaranteed a 5ghz all core performer.
> 
> If was getting an Asus board in the Maximus line, I'd personally get an Apex.


Thank you! 

1. What is the performance difference in games in having one core at 5GHz vs all cores at 5GHz?
2. Am I guaranteed a boost to 5GHz on the first core at stock settings, assuming thermals are under control?
3. Should I expect thermal throttling in games even at stock settings with a CM 360 cooler?


----------



## chibi

Besides the Gene XI for mATX, what's the next best board that's more budget friendly?


----------



## Robostyle

I've just ordered Godlike for, hm.. 440$ I think. Any drawbacks about this MB I should consider when paying for it?


----------



## robertr1

ahnafakeef said:


> Thank you!
> 
> 1. What is the performance difference in games in having one core at 5GHz vs all cores at 5GHz?
> 2. Am I guaranteed a boost to 5GHz on the first core at stock settings, assuming thermals are under control?
> 3. Should I expect thermal throttling in games even at stock settings with a CM 360 cooler?


1. Depends on game. You can always OC to all cores 4.9 which any 9900k will do. The diff between 4.9 and 5.0 is not something you'll experience in any game. 
2. Yes. A chip wouldn't leave intel test facility if it couldn't. You can easily RMA a chip like that. 
3. Games are way less taxing than CPU benchmarks and stress test. 360 AIO is plenty fine


----------



## hemon

Hi,

Can someone maybe help me to get new motherboard for 9900k?

Budget 200 to 250€ and I prefer to get wifi/bluethooth with it. 
I have thinking these boards but I can't decide which one to get:

Asus ROG STRIX Z390-F GAMING
ASRock Z390 Extreme4
Gigabyte Z390 AORUS PRO WIFI
MSI MPG Z390 GAMING PRO CARBON AC

Thank you very much for the help!


----------



## KedarWolf

hemon said:


> Hi,
> 
> Can someone maybe help me to get new motherboard for 9900k?
> 
> Budget 200 to 250€ and I prefer to get wifi/bluethooth with it.
> I have thinking these boards but I can't decide which one to get:
> 
> Asus ROG STRIX Z390-F GAMING
> ASRock Z390 Extreme4
> Gigabyte Z390 AORUS PRO WIFI
> MSI MPG Z390 GAMING PRO CARBON AC
> 
> Thank you very much for the help!


if you're going to get Gigabyte, get the Ultra over the Pro, great VRM setup, and much better VRM heatsink.

"So it could handle an OC'd 9600k just fine?

It should be able to handle an overclocked i9-9900K as well with a bit of luck. 

However the Ultra and Master have definitely the bigger and better heat-sinks over the VRMs.

So, if you opt for an i9-9900K that costs a fortune + overclock, i would spend a bit more on the motherboard.

Now, i would strongly recommend for not getting the Master but instead opt for the Ultra!

And that for two reasons.

The Master uses a 40A power stage (IR3553) and the Ultra uses a 50A power stage (SiC634)

And secondly and most important the Master is using simple doublers (IR3599), but the Ultra does use the more advanced doublers. (ISL6617)

And these doublers are supporting current balancing and this makes them the better doublers.

Actually this is what makes these doublers to be better:

Patented Current Balancing with DCR Current Sensing and Adjustable Gain

Followed by this...

Channel current balance is essential in achieving the thermal advantage of multiphase operation. With good current balance, the power loss is equally dissipated over multiple devices and a greater area.

Sorry it took that long, but i consulted the manual to be sure. "


"Yes but the ultra has the better VRM heat-sinks!

https://www.gigabyte.com/FileUpload/Global/KeyFeature/1015/images/thermaldesign-s.jpg

1. Multi-Cut Heatsink

Multiple fin-cut on heatsink to improve thermal performance by increasing heat dissipation surface and maintain stylish aesthetic.

2. Direct Touch Heatpipe

Direct Touch Heatpipe helps transfer heat from MOSFET to heatsink, also connects two parts of MOSFET heatsink for the best cooling performance.

3. Thick Thermal Pad

By using 1.5mm thicker thermal pad, it can provide better contact pressure between heatsink and components and faster heat transfer.
The VRM heat-sinks of the Pro are simpler.

https://imagescdn.tweaktown.com/con...0-aorus-pro-intel-motherboard-review_full.jpg


----------



## hemon

KedarWolf said:


> if you're going to get Gigabyte, get the Ultra over the Pro, great VRM setup, and much better VRM heatsink.
> 
> "So it could handle an OC'd 9600k just fine?
> 
> It should be able to handle an overclocked i9-9900K as well with a bit of luck.
> 
> However the Ultra and Master have definitely the bigger and better heat-sinks over the VRMs.
> 
> So, if you opt for an i9-9900K that costs a fortune + overclock, i would spend a bit more on the motherboard.
> 
> Now, i would strongly recommend for not getting the Master but instead opt for the Ultra!
> 
> And that for two reasons.
> 
> The Master uses a 40A power stage (IR3553) and the Ultra uses a 50A power stage (SiC634)
> 
> And secondly and most important the Master is using simple doublers (IR3599), but the Ultra does use the more advanced doublers. (ISL6617)
> 
> And these doublers are supporting current balancing and this makes them the better doublers.
> 
> Actually this is what makes these doublers to be better:
> 
> Patented Current Balancing with DCR Current Sensing and Adjustable Gain
> 
> Followed by this...
> 
> Channel current balance is essential in achieving the thermal advantage of multiphase operation. With good current balance, the power loss is equally dissipated over multiple devices and a greater area.
> 
> Sorry it took that long, but i consulted the manual to be sure. "
> 
> 
> "Yes but the ultra has the better VRM heat-sinks!
> 
> https://www.gigabyte.com/FileUpload/Global/KeyFeature/1015/images/thermaldesign-s.jpg
> 
> 1. Multi-Cut Heatsink
> 
> Multiple fin-cut on heatsink to improve thermal performance by increasing heat dissipation surface and maintain stylish aesthetic.
> 
> 2. Direct Touch Heatpipe
> 
> Direct Touch Heatpipe helps transfer heat from MOSFET to heatsink, also connects two parts of MOSFET heatsink for the best cooling performance.
> 
> 3. Thick Thermal Pad
> 
> By using 1.5mm thicker thermal pad, it can provide better contact pressure between heatsink and components and faster heat transfer.
> The VRM heat-sinks of the Pro are simpler.
> 
> https://imagescdn.tweaktown.com/con...0-aorus-pro-intel-motherboard-review_full.jpg


Thank you for the reply.

What about the Asus? For overclocking it should be surely better then the MSI and overall performance: 

https://www.guru3d.com/articles_pages/asus_rog_strix_z390_e_gaming_review,19.html
https://www.guru3d.com/articles_pages/msi_mpg_z390_gaming_pro_carbon_review,18.html

EDIT: The Asus seems to overclock better than the Gigabyte Master too: https://www.guru3d.com/articles_pages/gigabyte_z390_aorus_master_review,19.html. On the other side, the Gigabyte has the better VRM cooling performance over the Asus and MSI.


----------



## elmor

hemon said:


> Thank you for the reply.
> 
> What about the Asus? For overclocking it should be surely better then the MSI and overall performance:
> 
> https://www.guru3d.com/articles_pages/asus_rog_strix_z390_e_gaming_review,19.html
> https://www.guru3d.com/articles_pages/msi_mpg_z390_gaming_pro_carbon_review,18.html
> 
> EDIT: The Asus seems to overclock better than the Gigabyte Master too: https://www.guru3d.com/articles_pages/gigabyte_z390_aorus_master_review,19.html. On the other side, the Gigabyte has the better VRM cooling performance over the Asus and MSI.


I have not ever seen reliable overclocking results in any review, especially when comparing board to board.


----------



## hemon

elmor said:


> I have not ever seen reliable overclocking results in any review, especially when comparing board to board.


Why not? In this reviews exactly the same system is tested, why would this be not reliable?


----------



## elmor

hemon said:


> Why not? In this reviews exactly the same system is tested, why would this be not reliable?


There are so many variables not checked, to be fair it would require a substantial effort. I'm just saying that most of the time you should not put any value in CPU frequencies achieved in reviews. I've yet to see any actual difference in CPU core overclocks on recent platforms on ambient cooling given that the board is upper end. At the lower end there can be differences due to lower quality regulators being used. Even then we're talking about maybe 20-30 MHz.

- How many mounts to make sure thermal contact is comparable?
- Usually only a single chip is tested, some may work better on one board than others
- Are power and thermal measurements comparable? If one is drawing more power or is running hotter than another it may indicate different actual voltage or throttling. This is quite difficult to measure as a lot of times software readings can't be trusted, especially not close to launch. On most boards the only reliable voltage reading will be directly from the VRM controller.
- Again different default load-line settings, or reviewer preferred load-line settings may yield different results. I often see "Level 3" used on this board and "Level 2" on this, but never any explanation as to why. Even worse is just a value set without mentioning what load-line value is used.
- XMP/memory settings used? It also affect CPU stress
- Comparisons are usually done at multiplier steps, on Intel platforms that's 100 MHz. If one board can do 5000 and another 5010 MHz, the result would show that one can do 5000 and the other 5100. That's quite a significant difference.


----------



## ntuason

Anyone have MSI Meg ACE + 9900k? Looking to replace my current board with it and was just wondering how it overclocks 9900k and how VRM temps are?


----------



## shocker94

ntuason said:


> Anyone have MSI Meg ACE + 9900k? Looking to replace my current board with it and was just wondering how it overclocks 9900k and how VRM temps are?


I have It and i love it with a 9900k. With LLC 3 it's stable at 5ghz core, 4.7 uncore with 1.25v(BIOS setting, 1.246v idle, 1.23v gaming, 1.21v heavy load).
Vrm temps, under heavy load, are about 70 degrees.


----------



## ntuason

shocker94 said:


> I have It and i love it with a 9900k. With LLC 3 it's stable at 5ghz core, 4.7 uncore with 1.25v(BIOS setting, 1.246v idle, 1.23v gaming, 1.21v heavy load).
> Vrm temps, under heavy load, are about 70 degrees.


Wow that’s a bit high than the Aorus Masters temps. What I really don’t like about the Master is it’s garbage at overclocking memory, have you tried ocing memory?


----------



## robertr1

elmor said:


> There are so many variables not checked, to be fair it would require a substantial effort. I'm just saying that most of the time you should not put any value in CPU frequencies achieved in reviews. I've yet to see any actual difference in CPU core overclocks on recent platforms on ambient cooling given that the board is upper end. At the lower end there can be differences due to lower quality regulators being used. Even then we're talking about maybe 20-30 MHz.
> 
> - How many mounts to make sure thermal contact is comparable?
> - Usually only a single chip is tested, some may work better on one board than others
> - Are power and thermal measurements comparable? If one is drawing more power or is running hotter than another it may indicate different actual voltage or throttling. This is quite difficult to measure as a lot of times software readings can't be trusted, especially not close to launch. On most boards the only reliable voltage reading will be directly from the VRM controller.
> - Again different default load-line settings, or reviewer preferred load-line settings may yield different results. I often see "Level 3" used on this board and "Level 2" on this, but never any explanation as to why. Even worse is just a value set without mentioning what load-line value is used.
> - XMP/memory settings used? It also affect CPU stress
> - Comparisons are usually done at multiplier steps, on Intel platforms that's 100 MHz. If one board can do 5000 and another 5010 MHz, the result would show that one can do 5000 and the other 5100. That's quite a significant difference.


I suppose the questions to ask would be, is there much headroom for OC on ambient of any of the $250+ range boards?

Let's say a 9900k that does 5ghz P95 non avx at 1.2v under load (this removes the LLC settings variable) on an Aorus Elite. Is that chip going to A. Perform better on something like an Apex or Dark? As in require less vcore? or is it going to have more headroom to push for a higher OC? 

If so on the higher OC, what factors comes into play that allows for the higher ceiling? more PCB layers? better vrm efficiency and transients? better output ripple?

I want to state again about this example being limited ambient because XOC is a different ballgame.


----------



## shocker94

ntuason said:


> Wow that’s a bit high than the Aorus Masters temps. What I really don’t like about the Master is it’s garbage at overclocking memory, have you tried ocing memory?


Yes, but i haven't pushed it over 1.45v. I'm running 2x8gb hof Extreme OC from 4000 cl19-25-25-45 1.4v to 4100mhz cl 16-19-19-37 1.45v TRFC 370.

Before the Ace, i was on the Aorus master. I don't know if i picked up a broken exemplar, but it was bad on memory OC and bad on CPU overclock(1.31v for 5ghz with turbo LLC versus the 1.25v of the meg ace). The only good side of the master, were the 52 degrees on the VRMs.


----------



## ntuason

shocker94 said:


> Yes, but i haven't pushed it over 1.45v. I'm running 2x8gb hof Extreme OC from 4000 cl19-25-25-45 1.4v to 4100mhz cl 16-19-19-37 1.45v TRFC 370.
> 
> Before the Ace, i was on the Aorus master. I don't know if i picked up a broken exemplar, but it was bad on memory OC and bad on CPU overclock(1.31v for 5ghz with turbo LLC versus the 1.25v of the meg ace). The only good side of the master, were the 52 degrees on the VRMs.


Ya the VRMs temps is the only thing keeping me from replacing the Master. But it looks like I'll like the ACE much more due to CPU and memory overclocking performance. It's a shame the only one M.2 bay has a Frozr heatsink.
BTW, the M.2 slot on the ACE, is it really that complicated to install a 2280 M.2 in it? been reading and watching reviews and people are saying you need to remove a screw before you can install a 2280 M.2 and requires a special tool that's not bundled with the motherboard?


----------



## Falkentyne

robertr1 said:


> I suppose the questions to ask would be, is there much headroom for OC on ambient of any of the $250+ range boards?
> 
> Let's say a 9900k that does 5ghz P95 non avx at 1.2v under load (this removes the LLC settings variable) on an Aorus Elite. Is that chip going to A. Perform better on something like an Apex or Dark? As in require less vcore? or is it going to have more headroom to push for a higher OC?
> 
> If so on the higher OC, what factors comes into play that allows for the higher ceiling? more PCB layers? better vrm efficiency and transients? better output ripple?
> 
> I want to state again about this example being limited ambient because XOC is a different ballgame.


Under what conditions? With loadline calibration or with the full Intel designed vdroop (1.6 mOhms?)--e.g. Vcore Loadline Calibration at Intel defaults (1.6 mOhms on 8 core), using the auto vcore setting+ AC Loadline to help control idle/load voltages, combined with fixed +/- adaptive offsets to get 1.2v under load?

These matter IMMENSELY. Very high levels of loadline calibration worsen stability because of transients.
https://www.overclock.net/forum/6-i...0-vrm-discussion-thread-412.html#post28022104
With the full vdroop available (no loadline calibration used) on the higher end boards it's probably just like Elmor said--maybe within 50 mhz of each other.

Now if you want to ask 'which board is going to handle large transients better at 193 amps of current', well...whos going to be the person to buy multiple high end boards and do these tests? People are not going to waste $1500 on a bunch of boards to do this testing for you. Sometimes you have to do the testing yourself, or find someone who works in a major computer ODM/lab who can do it (and they are usually too busy for this stuff).


----------



## postem

ahnafakeef said:


> Thank you!
> 
> 1. What is the performance difference in games in having one core at 5GHz vs all cores at 5GHz?
> 2. Am I guaranteed a boost to 5GHz on the first core at stock settings, assuming thermals are under control?
> 3. Should I expect thermal throttling in games even at stock settings with a CM 360 cooler?


As a rule of thumb you need a mix of frequency / Single thread performance + cores.
Majority of gaming engines are now prepared to deal with several cores, from the huge majority i seen, the ideal ratio usually is 6/12 core/thread. After that, you will mostly get marginal improvement, even on engines that are crippled by it own, like the new Asssassins creed that runs the game inside a crappy vrm that eat cpu just to make cracking more dificult.

Some games, especially simulators have limited engines or are rely heavily on a main thread. I was benchmarking anno 1800, and it consistently tops out a single thread 100% of time and use marginally other threads.
Another one popular, cities skylines, use a single core and offload some other mecanics to other cores, but even with threads not topping 100% and gpu 100%, the internal engine is bugged and its pretty common to go back to 60's or lower fps.

Even FPS engines, especially older ones rely heavily on a main thread. The best engine i found out to benefit from cores is Frostbite. I managed to get 20-40fps extra on bf1 migrating from 7700K to 8700K.

So so, cores are certainly important, but frequency / Single core performance is also determinant, considering there is almost always a hungry main thread.
I still im wondering if i really would benefit going into 9900K vs 8700K, especially considering i have a delided one topping 65c on summer. To achieve same Single thread performance i would forcibilly to OC to 5ghz, and it probably would be a strain.

About 2: With mce, multi core enhancement, several motherboards allow you to keep all cores 4.7 ghz. You can define different ratios for all cores, like you want a core running 5ghz and all other running 4.7ghz, as far as i know, when you override on a good bios you can have control over it. When overclocking, and overring default behaviour, you will only see a drop in clock either if the current limit is set or if you reach thermal junction, but with a single or two cores at 5ghz it probably will not happen.


About 3, thermal throttling, hell no. Even at 5ghz, you will not see the same kind of thermal load of benchmarks, mostly due no games, with few exception, will max out 16 threads. Most of the time you will get 50% or less total combined load across cores. Even the ones when more cores are used like frostbite, will not draw the same as cinebench or p95, i didnt see yet any game implementing AVX routines.


----------



## elmor

robertr1 said:


> I suppose the questions to ask would be, is there much headroom for OC on ambient of any of the $250+ range boards?
> 
> Let's say a 9900k that does 5ghz P95 non avx at 1.2v under load (this removes the LLC settings variable) on an Aorus Elite. Is that chip going to A. Perform better on something like an Apex or Dark? As in require less vcore? or is it going to have more headroom to push for a higher OC?
> 
> If so on the higher OC, what factors comes into play that allows for the higher ceiling? more PCB layers? better vrm efficiency and transients? better output ripple?
> 
> I want to state again about this example being limited ambient because XOC is a different ballgame.


LLC settings are not only about the resulting voltage reading under load, it also affects transients (https://www.elmorlabs.com/index.php/2019-09-05/vrm-load-line-visualized/). And 1.2V under load measured how? Again software readings can often be misleading.

It's difficult to say how the differences will manifest, may even be a combination of all. Can't know that without testing it.

- The most important for requiring lower voltage, or achieving higher overclocks will likely be the transient response. Or how large momentary voltage drop you get at large load spikes (see the above link). This is the lowest point the voltage will drop to at any point and if it happens at the wrong time there's an increased chance of failure.
- More and thicker PCB layers can reduce the power plane impedance and may improve the VRM performance and reduce the resistive losses in delivering power to the CPU. It's also important for spreading the heat generated by the VRM acting as a heatsink. But VRM temperature itself doesn't directly affect CPU frequency, unless it's causing throttling or somehow spreading heat from the motherboard to the CPU through the socket.
- VRM efficiency will only affect VRM temperatures
- Transient behavior is the most important VRM factor for CPU stability
- Output ripple has no effect on CPU stability, but may be a symptom of sub-par regulation or insufficient output capacitance. If you have large output ripple, you can expect worse transient behavior.


----------



## shocker94

ntuason said:


> Ya the VRMs temps is the only thing keeping me from replacing the Master. But it looks like I'll like the ACE much more due to CPU and memory overclocking performance. It's a shame the only one M.2 bay has a Frozr heatsink.
> 
> BTW, the M.2 slot on the ACE, is it really that complicated to install a 2280 M.2 in it? been reading and watching reviews and people are saying you need to remove a screw before you can install a 2280 M.2 and requires a special tool that's not bundled with the motherboard?


It's a simple screw. There's no need to buy other tools...


----------



## ntuason

shocker94 said:


> It's a simple screw. There's no need to buy other tools...


Awesome thanks for the answers +rep!


----------



## shocker94

ntuason said:


> Awesome thanks for the answers +rep!


No problem


----------



## robertr1

elmor said:


> LLC settings are not only about the resulting voltage reading under load, it also affects transients (https://www.elmorlabs.com/index.php/2019-09-05/vrm-load-line-visualized/). And 1.2V under load measured how? Again software readings can often be misleading.
> 
> It's difficult to say how the differences will manifest, may even be a combination of all. Can't know that without testing it.
> 
> - The most important for requiring lower voltage, or achieving higher overclocks will likely be the transient response. Or how large momentary voltage drop you get at large load spikes (see the above link). This is the lowest point the voltage will drop to at any point and if it happens at the wrong time there's an increased chance of failure.
> - More and thicker PCB layers can reduce the power plane impedance and may improve the VRM performance and reduce the resistive losses in delivering power to the CPU. It's also important for spreading the heat generated by the VRM acting as a heatsink. But VRM temperature itself doesn't directly affect CPU frequency, unless it's causing throttling or somehow spreading heat from the motherboard to the CPU through the socket.
> - VRM efficiency will only affect VRM temperatures
> - Transient behavior is the most important VRM factor for CPU stability
> - Output ripple has no effect on CPU stability, but may be a symptom of sub-par regulation or insufficient output capacitance. If you have large output ripple, you can expect worse transient behavior.


Thank you for this. Software measurements mainly such as VR VROUT (vcore for Asus).

The reason I bring it up is that it seems that the Dark/Apex/Gene generally have a bit better overhead to push a 9900k further and/or reduce the load voltage required for stability. 

I'm getting close to swap my z390 aorus pro for an Apex so started doing a fair bit of research into the board and general performance. I'd get the Gene but I like the Atx size. The dark is too much in EU.

Are you aware of any published oscilloscope measurements with the XI Apex? or will the gene results carry over?

In your readings, why did bumping up the switching frequency helps the extreme/level 8 llc the most? It reduced the undershoot, overshoot and lowered the Vpp. The initial overcompensation on the rebound that shows up in the level 8 settings, how do they impact stability? seems like there is a dip immediately followed by an overshoot. How does that particular section impact stability since it has to dip again to level out.


----------



## Falkentyne

robertr1 said:


> Thank you for this. Software measurements mainly such as VR VROUT (vcore for Asus).
> 
> The reason I bring it up is that it seems that the Dark/Apex/Gene generally have a bit better overhead to push a 9900k further and/or reduce the load voltage required for stability.
> 
> I'm getting close to swap my z390 aorus pro for an Apex so started doing a fair bit of research into the board and general performance. I'd get the Gene but I like the Atx size. The dark is too much in EU.
> 
> Are you aware of any published oscilloscope measurements with the XI Apex? or will the gene results carry over?
> 
> In your readings, why did bumping up the switching frequency helps the extreme/level 8 llc the most? It reduced the undershoot, overshoot and lowered the Vpp. The initial overcompensation on the rebound that shows up in the level 8 settings, how do they impact stability? seems like there is a dip immediately followed by an overshoot. How does that particular section impact stability since it has to dip again to level out.


I can answer a small part of that. That dip is what causes heavy load stress tests to fail randomly when you are close to the stable boundary, especially at higher LLC levels (lower resistance or less vdroop). the CPU is --constantly-- getting similar dips and spikes, as no load is 100% completely constant--just sustained loads will have 'smaller' dips and spikes and less often than full load releases to full idle and startups (worst case transient response at a fixed frequency). Someone said the windows system timer can trigger some transients each interval also. You'll also get larger transient changes each time a prime95 iteration changes to the next one (assuming you are using prime95 29.8 build 6 to test stuff).

You get absolute worst case (even larger than in Elmor's shots) when you do a heavy/max current load (190 amps, etc) AND you change the processor multiplier during the prime95 test (e.g. with Throttlestop 8.70 multiplier adjustment). These transients will be so violent they can instantly BSOD you.


----------



## SgtRotty

hello! i own i7 8086k with z370 ASUS Prime-a. in my bios it says 255.50 max current allowed. if my board has a 10 phase power delivery, is all the curent for the CPU or split up elsewhere? 25 x 10 phases for the CPU alone maybe? whats the phase/choke specs for this board? thanks in advance, read 300 pages couldnt find it


----------



## postem

SgtRotty said:


> hello! i own i7 8086k with z370 ASUS Prime-a. in my bios it says 255.50 max current allowed. if my board has a 10 phase power delivery, is all the curent for the CPU or split up elsewhere? 25 x 10 phases for the CPU alone maybe? whats the phase/choke specs for this board? thanks in advance, read 300 pages couldnt find it


The max current setting on BIOS determines what is the hard limit of Amperes your cpu can get before it throttles down. 
ON default setting (at least on my maximus hero x), default current limit is the intel default, so after more current is requested than allowed the cpu will throttle down.

Realistically you will never draw 255 Amps on this cpu or this board, before doing some kind of exotic cooling, i believe even for 9900K fully overclocked without LN2 on any board. 

This setting isnt directly related to your board actual power delivery capabilities; its just a parameter on intel boards that determine if it will throttle down or not if more current is draw than its set on this parameter.

According to https://www.hardwareluxx.de/community/f12/lga-1151-mainboard-vrm-liste-1175784.html, your board has only 4 phases with 2 (or in this case 4, 2 high and 2 low ) mosfets per phase, no doublers.



AlphaC said:


> STRIX-E / F:
> SiRA14dp: 15.8A at 70°C T_ambient and 46A at 70°C T_case
> SiRA12dp: 20A at 70°C T_ambient and 53A at 70°C T_case
> 
> For reference, Z370-A :
> 4C09N (it's labeled 4C09B): 12.3A at 80°C T_ambient, 39A at 80°C T_case
> 4C06N (it's labeled 4C06B) : 14.9A at 80°C T_ambient, 52A at 80°C T_case


So you have probably around 119,2 Amp total power delivery capacity.

Your CPU VRM power only the CPU, feed by the EPS12v pin(s). The other 12v sources are directly feed from psu by the sata or 12V PSU cables, like for video card, or from the mainboard 24pin connector, like the 75W board power available to PCIe slots.


----------



## CiTay

shocker94 said:


> It's a simple screw. There's no need to buy other tools...



The procedure to install an M.2 SSD into the slot with the "M.2 Shield Frozr"-heatsink on the MSI MEG Z390 ACE is as follows.

There are different ways, depending on your SSD. First, the length: Most SSDs are 2280 (22 mm width x 80 mm length), as is my 970 Pro for example. So you first have to remove the screw and the nut which are pre-mounted in the left hole for 2260 size SSDs. To unscrew the nut, you need needlenose pliers or something similar.

 


Second aspect: The thermal pads. There is one underneath the heatsink, and then on the board, there are two pads on top of each other, with a protective foil in between. First, remove the foil from the thermal pad that's on the heatsink. Now, check if the SSD is single-sided or if there are chips on both sides. Most SSDs are single-sided. So we check the manual:



You have to seperate the thermal pads that are on the board, remove the protective foil, and put the upper onto the lower pad. Now put the SSD into the slot at an angle. Then attach the heatsink, push it down and screw it tight. You only screw down the heatsink, not the SSD itself.

Now there's two pads below the SSD and one pad above it. In the end, you should have three protective foils, and the screw + nut from the 2260 screw hole left over.

If you have a double-sided SSD, remove the second pad that's on the board, so there's just one thermal pad above and below the SSD.

    



As for other aspects of the Z390 ACE, i've recently made a post here: https://www.overclock.net/forum/28114704-post4166.html

I personally think it's overpriced, considering the VRM and cooling they use. It certainly has lots of nice features, it's excellent for RAM overclocking in particular, it has USB ports galore, and so on. But the VRM is using discrete MOSFETs (high/low side) instead of Powerstages, and with the amount of MOSFETs used (6+2, doubled), it's not the most efficient VRM. Thus, it can also get hotter than a solution with Powerstages. The heatsinks are just blocks of metal with not nearly enough finning, meaning the actual surface is not very big. They are decent at absorbing temperature spikes though.

There's a possibility that the heatpipe is sort of "fake", if you want to believe a certain review, because it doesn't get as hot as you would expect from a real heatpipe. Maybe the contact to the MOSFETs or the heatsink isn't ideal, i don't know. The VRM heatsinks certainly weigh a lot, but the material wasn't cleverly used. The infinity mirror plastic plate also covers part of the vertical heatsink, reducing cooling efficiency even more (design over function). But it's not only MSI going down that wrong path.

If this board was 30-50 bucks cheaper, it would be a great buy, but at the normal price, it's not 100% convincing. Within MSI's Z390 range, it's still the board i would go for, though. Just look at all the ports and features.


----------



## shocker94

CiTay said:


> The procedure to install an M.2 SSD into the slot with the "M.2 Shield Frozr"-heatsink on the MSI MEG Z390 ACE is as follows.
> 
> There are different ways, depending on your SSD. First, the length: Most SSDs are 2280 (22 mm width x 80 mm length), as is my 970 Pro for example. So you first have to remove the screw and the nut which are pre-mounted in the left hole for 2260 size SSDs. To unscrew the nut, you need needlenose pliers or something similar.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Second aspect: The thermal pads. There is one underneath the heatsink, and then on the board, there are two pads on top of each other, with a protective foil in between. First, remove the foil from the thermal pad that's on the heatsink. Now, check if the SSD is single-sided or if there are chips on both sides. Most SSDs are single-sided. So we check the manual:
> 
> 
> 
> You have to seperate the thermal pads that are on the board, remove the protective foil, and put the upper onto the lower pad. Now put the SSD into the slot at an angle. Then attach the heatsink, push it down and screw it tight. You only screw down the heatsink, not the SSD itself.
> 
> Now there's two pads below the SSD and one pad above it. In the end, you should have three protective foils, and the screw + nut from the 2260 screw hole left over.
> 
> If you have a double-sided SSD, remove the second pad that's on the board, so there's just one thermal pad above and below the SSD.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As for other aspects of the Z390 ACE, i've recently made a post here: https://www.overclock.net/forum/28114704-post4166.html
> 
> I personally think it's overpriced, considering the VRM and cooling they use. It certainly has lots of nice features, it's excellent for RAM overclocking in particular, it has USB ports galore, and so on. But the VRM is using discrete MOSFETs (high/low side) instead of Powerstages, and with the amount of MOSFETs used (6+2, doubled), it's not the most efficient VRM. Thus, it can also get hotter than a solution with Powerstages. The heatsinks are just blocks of metal with not nearly enough finning, meaning the actual surface is not very big. They are decent at absorbing temperature spikes though.
> 
> There's a possibility that the heatpipe is sort of "fake", if you want to believe a certain review, because it doesn't get as hot as you would expect from a real heatpipe. Maybe the contact to the MOSFETs or the heatsink isn't ideal, i don't know. The VRM heatsinks certainly weigh a lot, but the material wasn't cleverly used. The infinity mirror plastic plate also covers part of the vertical heatsink, reducing cooling efficiency even more (design over function). But it's not only MSI going down that wrong path.
> 
> If this board was 30-50 bucks cheaper, it would be a great buy, but at the normal price, it's not 100% convincing. Within MSI's Z390 range, it's still the board i would go for, though. Just look at all the ports and features.


I've dropped the vcore from 1.30v to 1.25v, on the ace with 9900k 5ghz core and 4.7 cache. For me, is the best motherboard. The Aorus master and taichi, were not able to make stable at 1.30v.


----------



## SgtRotty

postem said:


> The max current setting on BIOS determines what is the hard limit of Amperes your cpu can get before it throttles down.
> ON default setting (at least on my maximus hero x), default current limit is the intel default, so after more current is requested than allowed the cpu will throttle down.
> 
> Realistically you will never draw 255 Amps on this cpu or this board, before doing some kind of exotic cooling, i believe even for 9900K fully overclocked without LN2 on any board.
> 
> This setting isnt directly related to your board actual power delivery capabilities; its just a parameter on intel boards that determine if it will throttle down or not if more current is draw than its set on this parameter.
> 
> According to https://www.hardwareluxx.de/community/f12/lga-1151-mainboard-vrm-liste-1175784.html, your board has only 4 phases with 2 (or in this case 4, 2 high and 2 low ) mosfets per phase, no doublers.
> 
> 
> 
> So you have probably around 119,2 Amp total power delivery capacity.
> 
> Your CPU VRM power only the CPU, feed by the EPS12v pin(s). The other 12v sources are directly feed from psu by the sata or 12V PSU cables, like for video card, or from the mainboard 24pin connector, like the 75W board power available to PCIe slots.


THANK YOU!


----------



## CiTay

shocker94 said:


> I've dropped the vcore from 1.30v to 1.25v, on the ace with 9900k 5ghz core and 4.7 cache. For me, is the best motherboard. The Aorus master and taichi, were not able to make stable at 1.30v.



MSI made sure that the MEG Z390 ACE can handle an overclocked 9900K, and it is a good board for overclocking. But they way they did it, they used a lot of doubled phases with cheap high/low MOSFETs. The same VRM as on the MSI X470 Gaming M7 AC, by the way.

https://www.overclockers.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/board-power-section.jpg

Now here is the MEG X570 ACE with better and more expensive Powerstages:

https://www.techpowerup.com/review/msi-meg-x570-ace/images/vrm-front.jpg

The MEG Z390 ACE solution is not bad per se, it's just not quite befitting the price of the board. It's powerful, it spreads out the heat to many components, but it's not too efficient. You get over 40W power draw in idle, with a mainstream graphics card and two drives, where other boards can do as low as 20 or 25W with the same components. Ok, there are a few tricks to keeping the power draw in check, like lowering the setting for "CPU Lite Load" (for me, Mode 5 worked, even Mode 4 was stable, but i raised it one more from the first stable setting). Another thing is, control the voltages manually. For example, when you use high RAM clocks, the board will automatically raise CPU SA Voltage, CPU IO Voltage and PCH Voltage, not to mention DRAM Voltage of course. Set everything to manual and control it yourself, often times you don't need as much voltage as MSI wants to set. You wouldn't trust auto VCore either.

MSI went almost all out on everything, but they saved a bit on the VRM. You could say, they used a big old V8 motor. It's cheap and powerful, but not too fuel efficient. That's why i said, this board would be fantastic if only the price was lower.


----------



## shocker94

CiTay said:


> MSI made sure that the MEG Z390 ACE can handle an overclocked 9900K, and it is a good board for overclocking. But they way they did it, they used a lot of doubled phases with cheap high/low MOSFETs. The same VRM as on the MSI X470 Gaming M7 AC, by the way.
> 
> https://www.overclockers.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/board-power-section.jpg
> 
> Now here is the MEG X570 ACE with better and more expensive Powerstages:
> 
> https://www.techpowerup.com/review/msi-meg-x570-ace/images/vrm-front.jpg
> 
> The MEG Z390 ACE solution is not bad per se, it's just not quite befitting the price of the board. It's powerful, it spreads out the heat to many components, but it's not too efficient. You get over 40W power draw in idle, with a mainstream graphics card and two drives, where other boards can do as low as 20 or 25W with the same components. Ok, there are a few tricks to keeping the power draw in check, like lowering the setting for "CPU Lite Load" (for me, Mode 5 worked, even Mode 4 was stable, but i raised it one more from the first stable setting). Another thing is, control the voltages manually. For example, when you use high RAM clocks, the board will automatically raise CPU SA Voltage, CPU IO Voltage and PCH Voltage, not to mention DRAM Voltage of course. Set everything to manual and control it yourself, often times you don't need as much voltage as MSI wants to set. You wouldn't trust auto VCore either.
> 
> MSI went almost all out on everything, but they saved a bit on the VRM. You could say, they used a big old V8 motor. It's cheap and powerful, but not too fuel efficient. That's why i said, this board would be fantastic if only the price was lower.


I always use manual voltage. Vccio/sa at 1.15v.
Probably, the VRMs aren't the best, but they are good enough. The BIOS is very stable. The voltage delivery is rock solid. LLC is very very good, better than the aorus master and the taichi. I don't watch really, what there is on the motherboard. I watch what the motherboard is capable of.


----------



## coalscence

Hi guys,
I have an Asus Prime z370-A motherboard and have just purchased a 9900KF processor. How risky would it be to run a 9900KF with that mobo? My cooler is a Noctua NH-U12A. Would I be able to push 5 or 4.9GHZ or is it not recommended? I suppose I can lower the exhaust fan of my CPU cooler a little bit so the airflow is directed at the VRM heatsink that's near the I/O ports, and I can stick an additional 40mm Noctua fan at the top VRM heatsink, would that make things any better and allow me to overclock?

Otherwise how much performance loss am I seeing by using this board compared to let's say an Aorus z390 elite? Thanks a lot


----------



## postem

coalscence said:


> Hi guys,
> I have an Asus Prime z370-A motherboard and have just purchased a 9900KF processor. How risky would it be to run a 9900KF with that mobo? My cooler is a Noctua NH-U12A. Would I be able to push 5 or 4.9GHZ or is it not recommended? I suppose I can lower the exhaust fan of my CPU cooler a little bit so the airflow is directed at the VRM heatsink that's near the I/O ports, and I can stick an additional 40mm Noctua fan at the top VRM heatsink, would that make things any better and allow me to overclock?
> 
> Otherwise how much performance loss am I seeing by using this board compared to let's say an Aorus z390 elite? Thanks a lot


From what is listed above, check my other reply, Z370-A can probably draw 120A at MAX, under ideal temperature, probably 70C or less.
The thing is, drawing max specified current for a VRM isnt effective, and it will generate more heat, loss more eficiency and you will probably end up with some kind of shutdown.

My measurements on Asus z370 Hero X, with 8700K 5GHZ, on prime95 26.6 (so no AVX), are 105-110A, for 1,345v. So it i stick an 9900K/F it would probably draw+20-30A, for a total of 130-140A, on a load without AVX. For a 9900K/F under full AVX 5ghz it would probably be around 170-190A. 

You could probably run on z370 Elite with 9900K/f within specs, ie, 95W, and safely without MCE. 

https://www.hardwareluxx.de/community/f12/lga-1151-mainboard-vrm-liste-1175784.html

Z390 Elite at least use a single Mosfet, SiC634, theorically 50A MAX, with 12 mosfets and doublers, that will be more than enough. 
https://www.vishay.com/docs/76784/sic634.pdf

It seen for 200A, that what realistic you would get from a maxed 9900K, theorical power loss to heat will be very low with 6(12) phases, i wouldnt worry with thermals.

Realistically, you would never manage to keep this CPU running at 200A with the cooler you are using, you will be restricted by thermals much faster than current output or VRM temps. 

From https://www.gigabyte.com/Motherboard/Z390-AORUS-ELITE-rev-10#kf it seen the board has 6 phases with doublers, im surprised they are using same mosfet as ultra. 
Personally i hate gigabyte bios, but vrm on it own is beefy enough to keep 9900K overclocked running.


----------



## Falkentyne

postem said:


> From what is listed above, check my other reply, Z370-A can probably draw 120A at MAX, under ideal temperature, probably 70C or less.
> The thing is, drawing max specified current for a VRM isnt effective, and it will generate more heat, loss more eficiency and you will probably end up with some kind of shutdown.
> 
> My measurements on Asus z370 Hero X, with 8700K 5GHZ, on prime95 26.6 (so no AVX), are 105-110A, for 1,345v. So it i stick an 9900K/F it would probably draw+20-30A, for a total of 130-140A, on a load without AVX. For a 9900K/F under full AVX 5ghz it would probably be around 170-190A.
> 
> You could probably run on z370 Elite with 9900K/f within specs, ie, 95W, and safely without MCE.
> 
> https://www.hardwareluxx.de/community/f12/lga-1151-mainboard-vrm-liste-1175784.html
> 
> Z390 Elite at least use a single Mosfet, SiC634, theorically 50A MAX, with 12 mosfets and doublers, that will be more than enough.
> https://www.vishay.com/docs/76784/sic634.pdf
> 
> It seen for 200A, that what realistic you would get from a maxed 9900K, theorical power loss to heat will be very low with 6(12) phases, i wouldnt worry with thermals.
> 
> Realistically, you would never manage to keep this CPU running at 200A with the cooler you are using, you will be restricted by thermals much faster than current output or VRM temps.
> 
> From https://www.gigabyte.com/Motherboard/Z390-AORUS-ELITE-rev-10#kf it seen the board has 6 phases with doublers, im surprised they are using same mosfet as ultra.
> Personally i hate gigabyte bios, but vrm on it own is beefy enough to keep 9900K overclocked running.


Those amps levels are 100% accurate. At least on auto vcore (using VID and AC Loadline set to intel maximum of 1.6 mOhms and VRM "Loadline Calibration" loadline set to Intel specified level of 1.6 mOhms--which is the same value as the max AC Loadline (Max AC Loadline= default VRM loadline).

That's assuming the chip will even be stable at 5 ghz without setting a higher manual voltage with a higher LLC (you don't want to use higher LLC than default on auto vcore with AC Loadline set to 1.6 mOhms!). That's around 1.220-1.240v measured on the CPU die with AVX small FFT prime95 load, and no, that chip isn't going to be coolable unless you have a golden CPU that will have a very low default VID (so that on auto voltage+AC Loadline 1.6 mOhms, load vcore will be 1.20v or lower, or unless you're using direct die + water cooling).

All 9900K's *should* be stable at 4.9 ghz @ AC Loadline 1.6 mOhms and Auto vcore, if you can keep it under 100C.

Note that on 8700K, Max AC loadline is 2.1 mOhms and that is equal to stock VRM Loadline (2.1 mOhms). I think Asus doesn't let you set a "Intel default" VRM loadline calibration, like Gigabyte (Standard/Normal) does, but you can set Level 1 LLC=2.1 mOhms on a 9900K (I think--I don't have an asus board), but on Gigabyte, you can't go higher vdroop than 1.6 mOhms on a 9900K. Standard/Normal/Auto (Auto only if MCE is disabled) is 1.6 mOhms on a 9900K (2.1 mOhms on 8700K), and LLC=Low is 1.3 mOhms.


----------



## postem

Falkentyne said:


> Those amps levels are 100% accurate. At least on auto vcore (using VID and AC Loadline set to intel maximum of 1.6 mOhms and VRM "Loadline Calibration" loadline set to Intel specified level of 1.6 mOhms--which is the same value as the max AC Loadline (Max AC Loadline= default VRM loadline).
> 
> That's assuming the chip will even be stable at 5 ghz without setting a higher manual voltage with a higher LLC (you don't want to use higher LLC than default on auto vcore with AC Loadline set to 1.6 mOhms!). That's around 1.220-1.240v measured on the CPU die with AVX small FFT prime95 load, and no, that chip isn't going to be coolable unless you have a golden CPU that will have a very low default VID (so that on auto voltage+AC Loadline 1.6 mOhms, load vcore will be 1.20v or lower, or unless you're using direct die + water cooling).
> 
> All 9900K's *should* be stable at 4.9 ghz @ AC Loadline 1.6 mOhms and Auto vcore, if you can keep it under 100C.
> 
> Note that on 8700K, Max AC loadline is 2.1 mOhms and that is equal to stock VRM Loadline (2.1 mOhms). I think Asus doesn't let you set a "Intel default" VRM loadline calibration, like Gigabyte (Standard/Normal) does, but you can set Level 1 LLC=2.1 mOhms on a 9900K (I think--I don't have an asus board), but on Gigabyte, you can't go higher vdroop than 1.6 mOhms on a 9900K. Standard/Normal/Auto (Auto only if MCE is disabled) is 1.6 mOhms on a 9900K (2.1 mOhms on 8700K), and LLC=Low is 1.3 mOhms.


Im very lazy on setting tight vcore volts, and under Maximus Hero X for 8800K i set up LLC 5 if i remember correctly. Under p95 and realbench it drops from 1.345 to 1.328 under active load. So far i never use adaptive.

I would love to install a 9900K just for the sake of it, but i dont see practical reasons; my main rig in home is basically gaming, and going from a 8700K, delied, with max temps @ 70C, even at 1.35v, will probably dont add anything extra for gaming, will run hotter and i will probably need to lower frequency to hold temps, which will, even slighly reduce single thread performance. Until intel raise up the IPC, for gaming, there are no pratical reasons to increase temps and amps for just 2 more cores, but in reality, in gaming, i will never reach 200A, not even 120A, with even more total cpu % idle, it will probably be running in lower Amperage.

The only kind of game i see running all cores almost maxed is BF 1/V, on 144+hz, that thing really drives current pretty high.


----------



## coalscence

postem said:


> From what is listed above, check my other reply, Z370-A can probably draw 120A at MAX, under ideal temperature, probably 70C or less.
> The thing is, drawing max specified current for a VRM isnt effective, and it will generate more heat, loss more eficiency and you will probably end up with some kind of shutdown.
> 
> My measurements on Asus z370 Hero X, with 8700K 5GHZ, on prime95 26.6 (so no AVX), are 105-110A, for 1,345v. So it i stick an 9900K/F it would probably draw+20-30A, for a total of 130-140A, on a load without AVX. For a 9900K/F under full AVX 5ghz it would probably be around 170-190A.
> 
> You could probably run on z370 Elite with 9900K/f within specs, ie, 95W, and safely without MCE.
> 
> https://www.hardwareluxx.de/community/f12/lga-1151-mainboard-vrm-liste-1175784.html
> 
> Z390 Elite at least use a single Mosfet, SiC634, theorically 50A MAX, with 12 mosfets and doublers, that will be more than enough.
> https://www.vishay.com/docs/76784/sic634.pdf
> 
> It seen for 200A, that what realistic you would get from a maxed 9900K, theorical power loss to heat will be very low with 6(12) phases, i wouldnt worry with thermals.
> 
> Realistically, you would never manage to keep this CPU running at 200A with the cooler you are using, you will be restricted by thermals much faster than current output or VRM temps.
> 
> From https://www.gigabyte.com/Motherboard/Z390-AORUS-ELITE-rev-10#kf it seen the board has 6 phases with doublers, im surprised they are using same mosfet as ultra.
> Personally i hate gigabyte bios, but vrm on it own is beefy enough to keep 9900K overclocked running.


Sorry for the late reply, thank you very much for this is helpful. I'm a newb to this so it took me a while to understand. 
Anyways is the 120Amps limit that you suggested a thermal limit? I was hoping to push the CPU to around 180-190w output which is what my NH-U12A can handle under 100C I believe? (please correct me if I'm wrong). Should be about 125~140amps, maybe at 1.35v.
I saw a video from Buildzoid where he analyses the Asus strix z370-G motherboard which has the same VRMs as mine. He suggested that with an 8700k the VRMs can push around 125Amps at 1.3v but they get hot so airflow is recommended, which I believe my NH-U12A will be pushing air against the VRMs anyways and my case airflow is fine I believe, I can add a 40mm fan if necessary too.

If the VRMs can push 125~140amps that would mean the bottleneck is actually the CPU cooler and not the VRMs(since the NH-U12A is capable of handling up to 190w under 100C I believe), which means I can safely run a 9900k on this board and push it to about 190w output?
I do not plan on taking advantage of full AVX and stress testing it. Only gaming and some workloads like blender maybe.
Thanks again!


----------



## Falkentyne

coalscence said:


> Sorry for the late reply, thank you very much for this is helpful. I'm a newb to this so it took me a while to understand.
> Anyways is the 120Amps limit that you suggested a thermal limit? I was hoping to push the CPU to around 180-190w output which is what my NH-U12A can handle under 100C I believe? (please correct me if I'm wrong). Should be about 125~140amps, maybe at 1.35v.
> I saw a video from Buildzoid where he analyses the Asus strix z370-G motherboard which has the same VRMs as mine. He suggested that with an 8700k the VRMs can push around 125Amps at 1.3v but they get hot so airflow is recommended, which I believe my NH-U12A will be pushing air against the VRMs anyways and my case airflow is fine I believe, I can add a 40mm fan if necessary too.
> 
> If the VRMs can push 125~140amps that would mean the bottleneck is actually the CPU cooler and not the VRMs(since the NH-U12A is capable of handling up to 190w under 100C I believe), which means I can safely run a 9900k on this board and push it to about 190w output?
> I do not plan on taking advantage of full AVX and stress testing it. Only gaming and some workloads like blender maybe.
> Thanks again!


Amps (ampere) is current, not temperature.
Google Ohm's law.

Watts= Volts * Amps. (W=V*A)
Loadline (vL)= Amps * Resistance. (vL=I*R), or R=V/I


----------



## postem

coalscence said:


> Sorry for the late reply, thank you very much for this is helpful. I'm a newb to this so it took me a while to understand.
> Anyways is the 120Amps limit that you suggested a thermal limit? I was hoping to push the CPU to around 180-190w output which is what my NH-U12A can handle under 100C I believe? (please correct me if I'm wrong). Should be about 125~140amps, maybe at 1.35v.
> I saw a video from Buildzoid where he analyses the Asus strix z370-G motherboard which has the same VRMs as mine. He suggested that with an 8700k the VRMs can push around 125Amps at 1.3v but they get hot so airflow is recommended, which I believe my NH-U12A will be pushing air against the VRMs anyways and my case airflow is fine I believe, I can add a 40mm fan if necessary too.
> 
> If the VRMs can push 125~140amps that would mean the bottleneck is actually the CPU cooler and not the VRMs(since the NH-U12A is capable of handling up to 190w under 100C I believe), which means I can safely run a 9900k on this board and push it to about 190w output?
> I do not plan on taking advantage of full AVX and stress testing it. Only gaming and some workloads like blender maybe.
> Thanks again!


My 8700K @ 5ghz draw 100-110A with 100% load non AVX. For AVX heavy load it could spike 20-30A more. 
Realistically i usually stay below 80A in most of the time. 

The VRM output capacity of any board determines what reasonably you can draw from it before it shuts down. If your cpu requires more current than the VRM allows it will probably shutdown, some cheap boards could have catastrophic failures. You should not draw nominal current from a Mosfet continuously, it will be very inefficient and generate a lot of heat, it will not be able to keep drawing the current for long before some failure or thermal shutdown. You should aim for half or less Current draw on VRM nominal capacity to keep it most efficient possible, so to not generate excess heat and to stay within safe parameters.

If you already paid top money for a 9900K it makes not sense to cheap on a board like stryx or Prime. These boards have low and side mosfets with low current capacity. These boards can barely safe run a 8700K overclocked, let alone 9900K. Even if you put some Delta 5000RPM fans on the vrm heatsinks, that are very slim, i wouldnt recomend it ever, due to simply the rated output of vrm.


----------



## Kommando Kodiak

Asus ripped off its fans overcharging for crap vrm boards.


----------



## postem

Kommando Kodiak said:


> Asus ripped off its fans overcharging for crap vrm boards.


Just because a motherboard doesnt have doublers it doesnt mean its crap.
You can can call misleading marketing, but all rog boards can definitely run 9900K OC.


----------



## D-EJ915

postem said:


> Just because a motherboard doesnt have doublers it doesnt mean its crap.
> You can can call misleading marketing, but all rog boards can definitely run 9900K OC.


They are worse for the same cost, especially formula board when the apex costs less and has double the vrm capacity. Asus went crazy and stretched which is essentially the same board but prettied up over 3 units, hero, code and formula.

The Apex is a killer board though, if you don't need 4 ram slots it'd be my go to for 1151 overclocking at the moment. Compared to my Apex IX high vrm temps with fans the Apex XI barely gets warm with my 5.2ghz 9700k.


----------



## ntuason

D-EJ915 said:


> They are worse for the same cost, especially formula board when the apex costs less and has double the vrm capacity. Asus went crazy and stretched which is essentially the same board but prettied up over 3 units, hero, code and formula.
> 
> The Apex is a killer board though, if you don't need 4 ram slots it'd be my go to for 1151 overclocking at the moment. Compared to my Apex IX high vrm temps with fans the Apex XI barely gets warm with my 5.2ghz 9700k.


Agreed! Love the Apex XI. I’ve been using it for 4 days (replaced my Aorus Master) and the VRMs run much cooler on my Apex. The Apex can oc my 3600MHz CL18 memory to 4133 CL17 where as my Aorus Master had a hard time doing 4000MHz CL18. And the cpu oc on the apex is crazy, I’m actually stable at 5.1GHz all cores, max I could get with the master was 5GHz. I haven’t tired getting high oc on the apex yet.


----------



## D-EJ915

ntuason said:


> Agreed! Love the Apex XI. I’ve been using it for 4 days (replaced my Aorus Master) and the VRMs run much cooler on my Apex. The Apex can oc my 3600MHz CL18 memory to 4133 CL17 where as my Aorus Master had a hard time doing 4000MHz CL18. And the cpu oc on the apex is crazy, I’m actually stable at 5.1GHz all cores, max I could get with the master was 5GHz. I haven’t tired getting high oc on the apex yet.


Yeah it's a killer board, plus they sell it in the US now along with the Gene board so we get warranty lol.


----------



## robertr1

D-EJ915 said:


> Yeah it's a killer board, plus they sell it in the US now along with the Gene board so we get warranty lol.


Apex/Gene/Dark are the best high end boards on Z390. The dark being notably more expensive though.


----------



## KedarWolf

ntuason said:


> Agreed! Love the Apex XI. I’ve been using it for 4 days (replaced my Aorus Master) and the VRMs run much cooler on my Apex. The Apex can oc my 3600MHz CL18 memory to 4133 CL17 where as my Aorus Master had a hard time doing 4000MHz CL18. And the cpu oc on the apex is crazy, I’m actually stable at 5.1GHz all cores, max I could get with the master was 5GHz. I haven’t tired getting high oc on the apex yet.


If you're comparing the memory on the Apex and Master the Master is a four DIMM board, Apex 2 DIMMs, Apex will overclock higher being only two slots, but four DIMMS I run my 9900k at 4133 24/7 with 4x8GB CL16 3600 Trident Z's.


----------



## asdkj1740

new z390 from gigabyte

z390 d
https://www.gigabyte.com/Motherboard/Z390-D-rev-10#kf


seems to be a cut down version of z390 m although z390 d is atx


----------



## asdkj1740

https://www.hkepc.com/18569/型格純白金屬_Cover___NZXT_N7_Z390_MATTE_WHITE_主機板
z390 nzxt
seems to be running at 4+1 mode and then the vcore got doubled to 8.
ISL69138, SM7340EHKP 


i remember the nzxt z370=z370 hero plus doubling ic.


----------



## robertr1

asdkj1740 said:


> new z390 from gigabyte
> 
> z390 d
> https://www.gigabyte.com/Motherboard/Z390-D-rev-10#kf
> 
> 
> seems to be a cut down version of z390 m although z390 d is atx


trash tier


----------



## asdkj1740

robertr1 said:


> trash tier


z390 m is far more better in my opinion, as least it has two m.2 slot...
and it is better vrm cooling, 4 phases vcore are splited into 3+1 with separated heatsinks.


----------



## Wirerat

ntuason said:


> Agreed! Love the Apex XI. Iâ€™️ve been using it for 4 days (replaced my Aorus Master) and the VRMs run much cooler on my Apex. The Apex can oc my 3600MHz CL18 memory to 4133 CL17 where as my Aorus Master had a hard time doing 4000MHz CL18. And the cpu oc on the apex is crazy, Iâ€™️m actually stable at 5.1GHz all cores, max I could get with the master was 5GHz. I havenâ€™️t tired getting high oc on the apex yet.


How tall is the dimm board? Is it taller than the I/O of the board? 

I think I'm going to upgrade to the apex but I don't have a lot of clearance to my ek 360mm pe in fractal R5. I'm running low profile ram. The patriot vipers I had before barely fit.


----------



## ntuason

Wirerat said:


> How tall is the dimm board? Is it taller than the I/O of the board?
> 
> I think I'm going to upgrade to the apex but I don't have a lot of clearance to my ek 360mm pe in fractal R5. I'm running low profile ram. The patriot vipers I had before barely fit.


The DIMM.2 Module is actually really tall, its close to an inch taller than my Trident Z Royal.


----------



## Wirerat

ntuason said:


> The DIMM.2 Module is actually really tall, its close to an inch taller than my Trident Z Royal.


That's unfortunate.
I definitely won't have clearance.

I guess the easiest/cheapest solution is to run the nvme drive from a pcie x 4 card.


----------



## ntuason

Wirerat said:


> That's unfortunate.
> I definitely won't have clearance.
> 
> I guess the easiest/cheapest solution is to run the nvme drive from a pcie x 4 card.


Why not go for the Aorus Master? It's a really good mobo too.


----------



## Silkstone

*LLC and Loadline settings*

Reading through the threads on here and elsewhere has left me quite confused about LLC and AC/DC Loadline.

I'm basically looking for how to tweak the settings on my 8700k with Gigabyte X370.

At the moment, I have got LLC set to turbo as it results in a positive VDroop, actually increasing the vcore from 1.39 at idle to 1.405 at load allowing for a stable overclock at 5 Ghz. Setting LLC 1 lower results in a vdroop of 0.02 V, which causes my idle voltage to either be at 1.425, or risk crashing if I set Vcore to 1.4 V

As to the AC/DC Loadline settings, I've left this at auto. HWinfo reports this as IA Domain Loadline (AC/DC) 1.7/1.7 MOhm and GT Domain Loadline (AC/DC) 3.1/3.1 MOhm.

My question is basically, am I doing it right and limiting the risk of damaging my CPU, or should I be setting LLC and AC/DC loadline differently?

Thanks for any help on this.


----------



## Robostyle

Guys, am I gonna have some *significant* OC perfomance and capabilities improvement, in case I change my M10H with M10F VRM, to M11G?
Using mediocre 8700K now, maybe'll try 9900K (S, if local retailers'll give 24 months warranty). 

Tried Godlike Z390 before - really loved those VRM figures, temps were not that good though.


----------



## chinobino

asdkj1740 said:


> new z390 from gigabyte
> 
> z390 d
> https://www.gigabyte.com/Motherboard/Z390-D-rev-10#kf
> 
> 
> seems to be a cut down version of z390 m although z390 d is atx


Wow what a weird board to release, about $10 cheaper than the Z390 UD with 3 minor differences;

1. Bigger VRM heatsink and IO shroud
2. Two more USB 2.0 ports than the UD
3. Removed the additional CPU 4-pin ATX 12V power connector


----------



## camaxide

*Z390 board for OC and RGB*

I've looked all over, and gone by the VRM tier list trying to find the right motherboard..
I want a 9900KS on 5.2 GHz
I want 4x8GB G.skills at 4133Mhz Cas17
I want a motherboard that does RGB properly so I don't have to use multiple software to sync things up.

So.. Apex is out due to only having 2 Ram slots.. And it seem the only Asus board that has good VRM and overclock while also supporting 4 Dimms is the Maximus Extreme? which really seem VERY expensive for what I need (when I compare it to Gigabytes offerings). - the reason I started out with Asus boards were because they seem to offer the best RGB support and software.
Next I then heard how impressed buildzoid was with the Gigabyte lineup of Z390s that I ended up locking onto the Aorus Ultra, since it has excellent VRM and overclock, and it has 3x M.2 (vs 2 on pro wifi and not so much more expensive).

Now.. after looking around I seem to find tons of complaints about Gigabytes software... Especially the RBG fusion software has been bashed on forums and youtube since over a year ago.. and the new Fusion 2.0 seem to also have been a buggy trainwreck since its release and still is for many. - so I look for options..

Is there some good boards that I have kinda missed.. that checks my boxes without costing like 500 dollars? Or is the Gigabyte RGB Fusion unfairly bashed on forums and youtube? Or will I fare good with a lesser board than those I looked at and still be doing my aimed for overclocks?


----------



## GeneO

Hi, 

I hope somebody here can help me understand the voltage measurements on my (new) Gigabyte Aorus master.

I am running an 8086k on it in normal//offset mode @5.1 GHz. I run with C-states enabled, EIST disabled and speed-shift enabled (with autonomous mode in the OS). Behavior is same for EIST enabled instead. 

Below is a HWINFO64 screen snapshot of vcore and VR VOUT illustrating drops in vcore when there is no corresponding drop in VR VOUT. If I disable all C-states, it is the same. If I disable speed-shift (EIST already disabled), then there is no drop of voltage in either measurement as you should expect. This leads me to believe that the vcore drops are real and due to speed-shift (or alternatively EIST) lowering voltage as it is supposed to do. My question is is that correct and, if so, why no corresponding VR VOUT drop? 

Thanks


----------



## Wirerat

camaxide said:


> I've looked all over, and gone by the VRM tier list trying to find the right motherboard..
> I want a 9900KS on 5.2 GHz
> I want 4x8GB G.skills at 4133Mhz Cas17
> I want a motherboard that does RGB properly so I don't have to use multiple software to sync things up.
> 
> So.. Apex is out due to only having 2 Ram slots.. And it seem the only Asus board that has good VRM and overclock while also supporting 4 Dimms is the Maximus Extreme? which really seem VERY expensive for what I need (when I compare it to Gigabytes offerings). - the reason I started out with Asus boards were because they seem to offer the best RGB support and software.
> Next I then heard how impressed buildzoid was with the Gigabyte lineup of Z390s that I ended up locking onto the Aorus Ultra, since it has excellent VRM and overclock, and it has 3x M.2 (vs 2 on pro wifi and not so much more expensive).
> 
> Now.. after looking around I seem to find tons of complaints about Gigabytes software... Especially the RBG fusion software has been bashed on forums and youtube since over a year ago.. and the new Fusion 2.0 seem to also have been a buggy trainwreck since its release and still is for many. - so I look for options..
> 
> Is there some good boards that I have kinda missed.. that checks my boxes without costing like 500 dollars? Or is the Gigabyte RGB Fusion unfairly bashed on forums and youtube? Or will I fare good with a lesser board than those I looked at and still be doing my aimed for overclocks?


Gigabyte rgb fusion is working for me just fine. 

I only have my water blocks and light strips on the rgb headers. Then I have one phanteks halo on the Drgb header. 

I don't have any trident z or other rgb ram synced with it so I cannot report on that.


----------



## GeneO

GeneO said:


> Hi,
> 
> I hope somebody here can help me understand the voltage measurements on my (new) Gigabyte Aorus master.
> 
> I am running an 8086k on it in normal//offset mode @5.1 GHz. I run with C-states enabled, EIST disabled and speed-shift enabled (with autonomous mode in the OS). Behavior is same for EIST enabled instead.
> 
> Below is a HWINFO64 screen snapshot of vcore and VR VOUT illustrating drops in vcore when there is no corresponding drop in VR VOUT. If I disable all C-states, it is the same. If I disable speed-shift (EIST already disabled), then there is no drop of voltage in either measurement as you should expect. This leads me to believe that the vcore drops are real and due to speed-shift (or alternatively EIST) lowering voltage as it is supposed to do. My question is is that correct and, if so, why no corresponding VR VOUT drop?
> 
> Thanks



Nobody?


----------



## mattxx88

GeneO said:


> Hi,
> 
> I hope somebody here can help me understand the voltage measurements on my (new) Gigabyte Aorus master.
> 
> I am running an 8086k on it in normal//offset mode @5.1 GHz. I run with C-states enabled, EIST disabled and speed-shift enabled (with autonomous mode in the OS). Behavior is same for EIST enabled instead.
> 
> Below is a HWINFO64 screen snapshot of vcore and VR VOUT illustrating drops in vcore when there is no corresponding drop in VR VOUT. If I disable all C-states, it is the same. If I disable speed-shift (EIST already disabled), then there is no drop of voltage in either measurement as you should expect. This leads me to believe that the vcore drops are real and due to speed-shift (or alternatively EIST) lowering voltage as it is supposed to do. My question is is that correct and, if so, why no corresponding VR VOUT drop?
> 
> Thanks


interesting question, following


----------



## Robostyle

GeneO said:


> Nobody?


forget about it, topic is dead.


----------



## GeneO

Robostyle said:


> forget about it, topic is dead.


Then you must be able to articulate an answer, right? I mean, this is the VRM discussion thread,


----------



## Robostyle

GeneO said:


> Then you must be able to articulate an answer, right?


I have nothing to say about your question, cause I don't know. Alas, I was only questioning, just as you.
And we're the only who's watching this topic AFAIK.


----------



## elmor

GeneO said:


> Hi,
> 
> I hope somebody here can help me understand the voltage measurements on my (new) Gigabyte Aorus master.
> 
> I am running an 8086k on it in normal//offset mode @5.1 GHz. I run with C-states enabled, EIST disabled and speed-shift enabled (with autonomous mode in the OS). Behavior is same for EIST enabled instead.
> 
> Below is a HWINFO64 screen snapshot of vcore and VR VOUT illustrating drops in vcore when there is no corresponding drop in VR VOUT. If I disable all C-states, it is the same. If I disable speed-shift (EIST already disabled), then there is no drop of voltage in either measurement as you should expect. This leads me to believe that the vcore drops are real and due to speed-shift (or alternatively EIST) lowering voltage as it is supposed to do. My question is is that correct and, if so, why no corresponding VR VOUT drop?
> 
> Thanks



I think the VRM controller reports the last voltage it saw before it was asked to turn off to save power (0V SVID command), while the Vcore reading is from an external sensor (SIO chip) that will read all changes independent of the VRM controller state.


----------



## Kommando Kodiak

Does anyone know the hole spacings for the VRMs?


----------



## Wirerat

Kommando Kodiak said:


> Does anyone know the hole spacings for the VRMs?


What motherboard are you wanting this information on specifically?

Different vrms and model of boards have different hole spacing.


----------



## GeneO

elmor said:


> I think the VRM controller reports the last voltage it saw before it was asked to turn off to save power (0V SVID command), while the Vcore reading is from an external sensor (SIO chip) that will read all changes independent of the VRM controller state.


Hi thanks, that would make sense. 
I was running with speedshift mode enabled in BIOS and windows set to autonomouse mode. If I just disable autonomous mode in Windows, VR OUT lowers at idle as I thought it should. It is a difference between > 1,25v avg. with autonomous enabled, and .725 autonomous disabled. So I don't know if the OS can tell the chip to no longer use speedshift when I disable autonomouse mode.


----------



## Kommando Kodiak

Wirerat said:


> What motherboard are you wanting this information on specifically?
> 
> Different vrms and model of boards have different hole spacing.


Oh whoops MSI Z390 Godlike


----------



## Wirerat

Kommando Kodiak said:


> Wirerat said:
> 
> 
> 
> What motherboard are you wanting this information on specifically?
> 
> Different vrms and model of boards have different hole spacing.
> 
> 
> 
> Oh whoops MSI Z390 Godlike
Click to expand...

Ekwb and bitspower make monoblocks for that board. You might get a good idea from the measurements of those blocks. 

The images of the measurements are on ekwb site.


----------



## Kommando Kodiak

Wirerat said:


> Ekwb and bitspower make monoblocks for that board. You might get a good idea from the measurements of those blocks.
> 
> The images of the measurements are on ekwb site.


Thank you!


----------



## ronaldoz

I also gonna read the thread more, but could anyone suggest a cooling solution for the VRM's? I'm getting 96C when using Prime 95 v29.8 Small FFT (default settings) without AVX. With AVX, the CPU will run at 37x after a while. At the moment I got a 280mm radiator in the front, only having 2 x 140 fans pushing. So I will get 2 x 140 to also pull. Will that help much or should I have active cooling at the VRM?


----------



## Lao Tzu

Hi, recently buy a 9900KF and have an Asus Board Z370 MAXIMUS X CODE, and VRM are quite good, can OC to 5.1GHZ with 1.260v (idle 37°C, 85°C Full Stress, 40-60 in games) Cooler CPU AIO 240mm, without problem, need 1.325v to reach 5.2GHz but i need a better cooling solution to down temps, VRM Temps 52°C, but better VRM than Z390 if looking some board to buy...


----------



## ronaldoz

The VRM of my MSI Z370 Pro Gaming Carbon was getting 108C after some minutes of testing with Prime 95 SmallFFT (default settings with AVX)... I decided to stop the test.. and find out how that could happen. 
I've put a 140mm fan (don't have another fan at the moment) in front of the VRM's and it is steady at 74C when performing the same test.
With SmallFFT 1344K it is even lower, like 63C maybe. 
This is with 8700K / 1.30v

With the fan, the VRM temps are not a issue anymore.
The CPU is around the same temps. With heavy stress testing a bit lower then the VRM. (like 3C)


----------



## Maestro1337

Are the VRMs in the extreme4 z370 good?


----------



## Sacerdus

Hello guys, someone know if one of this boards can handle with a 9900k+OC? They are the cheapest on sale here.


Aorus Z390 I Pro Wifi, 

MSI MPG Z390 Pro Carbon, 

Gigabyte Z390M Gaming,

Gigabyte Z390 Gaming X


----------



## Imprezzion

MPG Pro Carbon has a pretty decent VRM lay-out performance wise but the cooling is pretty lackluster. The Gaming X has maybe the better VRM but the BIOS and board features are worse. I'd take the Pro Carbon and put a fan above the VRM and call it a day.


----------



## asdkj1740

msi z390 gaming plus, 4 drivers + 8H8L + 8 CHOKES
https://i.imgur.com/jYN48Jc.jpg


gigabyte gaming sli, 10 drivers, 5 doublers, 10H10L, 10 CHOKES
https://i.imgur.com/8HWeMKr.jpg


----------



## Morteen199

Hello. I just got the aorus pro Z390 and i was wondering if my VRM is getting to hoot ? its gets to 86C on realbench and about 98C on prime95 non avx2 load and about 60-70C while gaming. i am running 5ghz at 1.260V at llc turbo.. 1.1V vccio and 1.15V vccsa.. romtemperatur is about 20C. is this normal? thoug the pro had dissent vrm heatsink?


Realbench test 2 hour Max temperatures:
HWinfo64:
VR Loop 1. 71C
VR Vin 11.924v

VR Loop 1. 86C
VR VOUT 1.254V

VR VCC Temperature (SVID) 86C

VRM MOS 63C

CPU max temp 81C

I have dissent airflow...


----------



## D-EJ915

Those temps seem okay for that sort of load, especially for gaming is fine. If you are wanting to do more high cpu load programs then you could get a small fan and aim it at the vrm heatsink.


----------



## mouacyk

@Falkentyne I found your links to Elmor's oscilliscope graphs on LLC levels and how they affect voltage spikes on the ROG forums. I never fully understood the transient spikes and dips, but those graphs are worth more than their pixels.

So, I'm trying a different approach instead of using Turbo LLC (Gigabyte) or manual voltage (EVGA) for overclocking 5.2GHz. Setting BIOS vCore to 1.45v with Low LLC and when cores are loaded, it drops to around the expected 1.275v-1.3v voltage at high amperage of around 150A. On idle, it's like 20A. Isn't this the proper way to overclock and avoid the transient spikes that can kill CPUs and dips that can cause instability? I know everyone loves to see low idle voltage in CPUz, but I feel like that's a red herring.

Of course at idle, the VROUT will read higher to the untrained eye, but the amperage is so low, it's harmless.

Also -- if I see 11.7-11.8v on my 12V rails with a 6-year PSU, is that bad?


----------



## stryker7314

Have a 9900ks that does 5.4Ghz at approx 1.425v. Want to push it with direct die, optimus v2 and 720mm of dedicated cooling.

Questions is
Asus Maximus XI Apex or Evga z390 Dark?


----------



## KedarWolf

stryker7314 said:


> Have a 9900ks that does 5.4Ghz at approx 1.425v. Want to push it with direct die, optimus v2 and 720mm of dedicated cooling.
> 
> Questions is
> Asus Maximus XI Apex or Evga z390 Dark?


Apex for sure, Dark has 'issues'. :/


----------



## stryker7314

KedarWolf said:


> Apex for sure, Dark has 'issues'. :/


The issue with holding a bios change or something else I'm missing?


----------



## D-EJ915

My dark seems to have a harder time training than my apex but I'm not sure if that is what they are talking about.


----------



## KedarWolf

stryker7314 said:


> The issue with holding a bios change or something else I'm missing?


I've read about peeps getting the Dark and have all kinds of problems.

I strongly recommend the Apex.


----------



## stryker7314

KedarWolf said:


> I've read about peeps getting the Dark and have all kinds of problems.
> 
> I strongly recommend the Apex.


What problems if you don't mind expanding?


----------



## KedarWolf

stryker7314 said:


> What problems if you don't mind expanding?


Google is your friend.


----------



## Arctucas

KedarWolf said:


> I've read about peeps getting the Dark and have all kinds of problems.
> 
> I strongly recommend the Apex.


I would be interested in what you have read. Have any links?


----------



## stryker7314

KedarWolf said:


> Google is your friend.


So just saying things without substantiating them, got it.


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## mattxx88

At least evga doesn't abandon its customers like Asus does
I switched from a dark to a z390 gene
What i get from this change? RAM in qvl not working with xmp (gskill 4400c19) and no resize bar, also a 2 step more voltage for mine 9900ks 
GG and farewell Asus


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## D-EJ915

mattxx88 said:


> At least evga doesn't abandon its customers like Asus does
> I switched from a dark to a z390 gene
> What i get from this change? RAM in qvl not working with xmp (gskill 4400c19) and no resize bar, also a 2 step more voltage for mine 9900ks
> GG and farewell Asus


That's pretty interesting since EVGA is known for bad memory compatibility.


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## pausarecords

asdkj1740 said:


> few updates info to msi mid range mobos:
> 
> 8phase doubled vs fake 8 phases(true 4 phaes with dual inductors only).
> uP1961 is a dobuler for sure.
> the marking "FH UGF73N" driver chip should be up1962, its datasheet shows that the top marking is started with "FH".
> and up1962 is a Single Channel MOSFET Driver only, it cant double phases.
> 
> using uP1961 doublers on vcore is really doubling phases like msi gaming5.
> using "FH UGF73N" driver chip is not doubling phases, like z370m gaming pro.
> 
> http://www.upi-semi.com/files/1847/ba4ca758-28a3-11e6-8889-c5d1c66ed1d0
> MOSFET Driver - uPI Semi 力智電子


Help! i´m trying to recover a rx570 with a FH UGF73N dead, but i´m not been able to find the datasheet or replacemement component. can you help me ?


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## 1devomer

pausarecords said:


> Help! i´m trying to recover a rx570 with a FH UGF73N dead, but i´m not been able to find the datasheet or replacemement component. can you help me ?


I looked for the old link on the Internet Archive, one never knows.
And i found this: uP1962

uP1962 PDF Datasheet attached below.
You can find both uP1961 and uP1962 on AliExpress.


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## asdkj1740

pausarecords said:


> Help! i´m trying to recover a rx570 with a FH UGF73N dead, but i´m not been able to find the datasheet or replacemement component. can you help me ?


you mean this?





UP1962 pdf, UP1962 Description, UP1962 Datasheet, UP1962 view ::: ALLDATASHEET :::


UP1962 Datasheet, UP1962 datasheets, UP1962 pdf, UP1962 integrated circuits : UPI - Single Phase -Rectified Buck Converter ,alldatasheet, Datasheet, Datasheet search site for Electronic Components and Semiconductors, integrated circuits, diodes, triacs and other semiconductors.



pdf1.alldatasheet.com


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## teachmeluv

Hello Guys,

I just joined as I wanted to ask a question 

Actually I own the ASRock Z370 Extreme 4 with an i7 8700k. I am not happy with the OC results of the ASRock and want to use some money on a "new" board as some are still available.

Do you have a recommendation as I have actually the choice between:


MSI Z390-A PRO
MSI MPG Z390 GAMING PLUS

I am also able to have a look at used ones here. I just want a board with good VRM cooling for stable and moderate OC.

Thanks in advance


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## D-EJ915

For those two the -A Pro model is their basic budget line, the other one will be slightly more "high end" though not really a huge amount. What CPU would you be using them with? I think a used Asus Maximus XI Hero/code/formula would probably be the better option though pricier.


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## teachmeluv

I have a 8700k (delid) and I also do not want to spend that much money on an old platform as I will upgrade when DDR5 is released and stable. I have also found a Asus Prime Z390-A (refurbished) on Ebay here. Is there any board up to 100 Euro which will give me an upgrade compared to the Z370 Extreme 4?


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## teachmeluv

In #3.287 it was written that this board here is also a good value

ASUS Prime Z390-A Sockel 1151 ATX Mainboard in Schleswig-Holstein - Lübeck | Mainboards (Motherboards) kaufen | eBay Kleinanzeigen (ebay-kleinanzeigen.de) 

This is available at a price which I would afford. Why am I doing this?

My 8700k needs 1.38 V for 4,8 Ghz (the previous owner said he had it running at 1.28 V for 4,8 Ghz). Before I change everything I want a MoBo that is affordable atm and surely better than the Z370 Extreme 4 which has strange effects when you change something in the BIOS


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## teachmeluv

I was lucky finding a Gigabyte Aorus Z390 Pro in the "Hardwareluxx-Forum" for a price below 100 Euro which is fine. Hopefully that board will handle my 8700k with way lower VCore


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