# [TR/CT] Apple & Android Fans Begin Boycotts After US Retailers Block Apple Pay



## frickfrock999

http://www.trustedreviews.com/news/us-retailers-blocking-apple-pay-to-boost-alternative-payment-app
http://www.chinatopix.com/articles/19011/20141027/apple-android-fans-look-boycott-retailers-blocking-pay.htm
Quote:


> *Top firms like Wal-Mart, Best Buy, Rite Aid, and CVS are all in on the coup* to overthrow Apple's contactless payment system.
> 
> The reason behind the corporate aggression is clear - the companies all banded together in 2012 to work on their own payment system.CurrentC, a joint-venture mobile payment system boasting some of America's biggest retailers as backers, should be landing next year - in direct competition with Apple Pay.
> 
> Both Wal-Mart and Best Buy recently confirmed to the WSJ that *they were intentionally barring customers from using Apple's service in their stores.*


This is the only time in recorded history that Apple and Android fans have stood together.

So it all depends on who's more powerful.

The billion dollar corporations or the people?


----------



## Mand12

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *frickfrock999*
> 
> This is the only time in recorded history that Apple and Android fans have stood together.
> 
> So it all depends on who's more powerful.
> 
> The billion dollar corporations or the people?


I dunno...I mean if you're doing something that makes Apple and Android people hate you more than they hate each other, that might not be a wise plan.


----------



## CasualCat

Don't think Best Buy is in a position to be alienating anyone with falling market share/profits.


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## Toque

Just because Apple says "Jump" doesn't mean personal store owners or Corps have to say "how high".


----------



## Stealth Pyros

I don't get why the retailers are having such an outlash against NFC? How does it benefit them to disallow NFC and bring in their own new method of payment? It's not like they charge you extra to use X method of payment... Do they somehow get charged an extra fee for each NFC transaction they do? The outlash seems pretty unwarranted. As I very rarely *ever* carry cash (I know I can't be the only one), it's a pretty stupid move to try to ban alternative payment methods. You're only alienating and reducing your customer-base. As it is, I hardly ever shop retail anymore. Amazon with Prime is such a Godsend.


----------



## HeadGear

Their own Pay services would be straight from debit accounts, there would probably be a small fee involved, and the would bypass the credit card system in use for Apple pay and google wallet.


----------



## CasualCat

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Toque*
> 
> Just because Apple says "Jump" doesn't mean personal store owners or Corps have to say "how high".


Thing is it isn't Apple saying jump. They created the tool, but it is consumers wanting the retailers to use it and the consumers taking their business elsewhere. It is consumers saying jump, these retailers saying nope you jump (use my product instead when it is available) and consumers saying ok never mind I'll go elsewhere. Next thing Best Buy is trying to explain on an investor call why their market share and profits "inexplicably" dropped again. Wal-Mart could probably weather it fine imho, not sure about the pharmacies...


----------



## DuckieHo

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Stealth Pyros*
> 
> I don't get why the retailers are having such an outlash against NFC? How does it benefit them to disallow NFC and bring in their own new method of payment? It's not like they charge you extra to use X method of payment... Do they somehow get charged an extra fee for each NFC transaction they do? The outlash seems pretty unwarranted. As I very rarely *ever* carry cash (I know I can't be the only one), it's a pretty stupid move to try to ban alternative payment methods. You're only alienating and reducing your customer-base. As it is, I hardly ever shop retail anymore. Amazon with Prime is such a Godsend.


*Ownership of payment system.*
What happens when one/few companies takes control of the wireless payment system? You can guarantee fees at that point (much like the CC system today).

*Customer data.*
Who ever own the payment system can get a more holistic view of a customer based on their transaction. That means they can better data mine and target the customer. Walmart, Best Buy, etc happen to be stores that wish to sell products to customers as well.


----------



## coachmark2

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *frickfrock999*
> 
> So it all depends on who's more powerful.
> 
> The billion dollar corporations or the people?


Apple is one of those "billion dollar corporations" Frick. It's not the people vs the corporations. It's one corporation's (Apple) system of payment (Apple Pay) vs what the retailers would prefer to use.

Vote with your dollars people. Shop at the place that gives you the most utility per dollar spent. Note that part of that utility _could_ be in the amount of options you have for payment at checkout time. Unusual, but not unheard of or irrational.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Toque*
> 
> Just because Apple says "Jump" doesn't mean personal store owners or Corps have to say "how high".


True. Retailers can choose which methods of payment they would like to accept.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Stealth Pyros*
> 
> I don't get why the retailers are having such an outlash against NFC?


Apple Pay is very tightly secured. TLS + Strong encryption with cert checking, etc. There is almost no ability to tamper with the transaction data. The payment method that the retailers are pushing, CurrentC, is a badly concealed attempt at data mining. CurrentC is worse than Facebook when it comes to gobbling up user data and using it for targeted ads or worse.

The retailers do not LIKE the fact that someone else might be getting a piece of that pie (That is, Apple is lying and intercepting payment histories, etc) or that the pie of pillaged user-data might be kept from them (That is, Apple is telling the truth and really is protecting their customer's data).


----------



## Stealth Pyros

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DuckieHo*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Stealth Pyros*
> 
> I don't get why the retailers are having such an outlash against NFC? How does it benefit them to disallow NFC and bring in their own new method of payment? It's not like they charge you extra to use X method of payment... Do they somehow get charged an extra fee for each NFC transaction they do? The outlash seems pretty unwarranted. As I very rarely *ever* carry cash (I know I can't be the only one), it's a pretty stupid move to try to ban alternative payment methods. You're only alienating and reducing your customer-base. As it is, I hardly ever shop retail anymore. Amazon with Prime is such a Godsend.
> 
> 
> 
> *Ownership of payment system.*
> What happens when one/few companies takes control of the wireless payment system? You can guarantee fees at that point (much like the CC system today).
> 
> *Customer data.*
> Who ever own the payment system can get a more holistic view of a customer based on their transaction. That means they can better data mine and target the customer. Walmart, Best Buy, etc happen to be stores that wish to sell products to customers as well.
Click to expand...

Ugh. Screw them. Like I said, they're just going to alienate customers. I hope the boycott gains strong ground.


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## coachmark2

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Stealth Pyros*
> 
> Ugh. Screw them. Like I said, they're just going to alienate customers.


Indeed
Quote:


> I hope the boycott gains strong ground.


I don't. I hope very strongly that Apple Pay does not gain ground and is eventually out-competed by open alternatives. I would like for all retailers to accept NFC-initiated payments. *I do NOT want* that ability to be locked to a specific vendor's specific model of phone. Even if it's a popular phone, that locks out the rest of the market.

An open alternative that anyone is free to adopt would be WAY better. That way Android, iOS, and Windows Phone users would all be free to take advantage of it. NFC itself is designed to promote interoperability between different vendors. By passing a proprietary protocol (Apple Pay) over a relatively open specification, you completely defeat the purpose of the open standard in the first place.

I should add, Apple and the retailers are free to work out whatever arrangements they feel like for accepting payments. If tomorrow, Wal-Mart _*required*_ that you have an iPhone to purchase things there and discontinued all other payment methods, they are FREE to do so. However, I'd never shop there because I don't have and do not plan to get an iPhone.


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## Darkpriest667

LOL good luck boycotting Wal-Mart.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *coachmark2*
> 
> I don't. I hope very strongly that Apple Pay does not gain ground and is eventually out-competed by open alternatives. I would like for all retailers to accept NFC-initiated payments. *I do NOT want* that ability to be locked to a specific vendor's specific model of phone. Even if it's a popular phone, that locks out the rest of the market.
> 
> An open alternative that anyone is free to adopt would be WAY better. That way Android, iOS, and Windows Phone users would all be free to take advantage of it.


I agree, I think a lot of people don't understand that if Apple gains traction here that their payment would be the only form of NFC payment accepted. Once apple has you by the balls they don't let go. Ask the music industry or the BOOK industry.


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## Stealth Pyros

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *coachmark2*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Stealth Pyros*
> 
> Ugh. Screw them. Like I said, they're just going to alienate customers.
> 
> 
> 
> Indeed
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> I hope the boycott gains strong ground.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I don't. I hope very strongly that Apple Pay does not gain ground and is eventually out-competed by open alternatives. I would like for all retailers to accept NFC-initiated payments. *I do NOT want* that ability to be locked to a specific vendor's specific model of phone. Even if it's a popular phone, that locks out the rest of the market.
> 
> An open alternative that anyone is free to adopt would be WAY better. That way Android, iOS, and Windows Phone users would all be free to take advantage of it.
Click to expand...

Oh no, I definitely wasn't implying that Apple Pay should be a thing. Apple's fee is like a certain percentage of the purchase price? While I think that the fee is deducted from the merchant's end (not an additional charge for the customer), I definitely don't agree with it. We should just have the generic NFC standard that has been around (are there licensing fees for that?). What I do side with the boycott on is that retailers shouldn't have a proprietary payment method that they fully control. They have store credit cards for that.


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## assaulth3ro911

I like competition actually. I don't see anything wrong with this. Apple expected a free pass, it's not that easy to make billions of dollars. They have to use their head and their stockpiled money to make a system that people will trust and WANT instead of being forced to use due to it being the only thing there as they had a monopoly on it.


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## coachmark2

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *assaulth3ro911*
> 
> I like competition actually. I don't see anything wrong with this. Apple expected a free pass, it's not that easy to make billions of dollars. They have to use their head and their stockpiled money to make a system that people will trust and WANT instead of being forced to use due to it being the only thing there as they had a monopoly on it.


Agreed. Let Apple push their standard and let the retailers negotiate back. It's somewhat silly to my personal views that people are protesting by not shopping at a place that doesn't carry their particularly-preferred payment method, but that's their business.

This is what it looks like when free markets work. Companies that make bad decisions are punished and those who make good ones are rewarded. It will be interesting see which side/standard wins out on this one.

As an aside, I think the proprietary Apple Pay, even if it does gain some entrenchment, will eventually be out-competed by existing or yet-to-exist open NFC-based payment methods. However, that will take time and I will not enjoy that time.


----------



## 47 Knucklehead

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *frickfrock999*
> 
> The billion dollar corporations or the people?


As if Apple, Samsung, and Google AREN'T "billion dollar companies" themselves?


----------



## 47 Knucklehead

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *coachmark2*
> 
> True. Retailers can choose which methods of payment they would like to accept.


Exactly. Our company takes credit cards and does online payments. There are a ton of overhead costs and fees involved with every type of payment method (including cash). Just because Apple thinks people should use this, doesn't mean our company will rush out and pay x thousands of dollars for scanners, y dollars a month even if we don't take a single payment, and z percentage of sale as the payment.

It's expensive enough to pay $400 a machine for a single reader, a monthly fee, and anywhere from 1.75 to 3.25% just to take a credit card. Now I have to go our and get a new monthly fee and a bunch of new readers?

Pass.


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## Darkpriest667

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *coachmark2*
> 
> Agreed. Let Apple push their standard and let the retailers negotiate back. It's somewhat silly to my personal views that people are protesting by not shopping at a place that doesn't carry their particularly-preferred payment method, but that's their business.
> 
> This is what it looks like when free markets work. Companies that make bad decisions are punished and those who make good ones are rewarded. It will be interesting see which side/standard wins out on this one.
> 
> As an aside, I think the proprietary Apple Pay, even if it does gain some entrenchment, will eventually be out-competed by existing or yet-to-exist open NFC-based payment methods. However, that will take time and I will not enjoy that time.


I think even an open NFC payment system is going to have a long road to acceptance by retailers. They are in bed with the CC companies and you know the CC companies and BANKS do not want to lose their 2% transaction fees. Apple and Google might be multi billion dollar companies but they are in the big leagues in the finance world and I don't think they are quite prepared to deal with the CC companies and banks. You want to talk about monopolies and oligopolies with no competition Apple and Google? Welcome to the finance industry where oligopoly is the name of the game and you are 200 years behind the curve. These guys play for keeps and they have no problems destroying entire industries to get what they want. This fight could get ugly and not fun for consumers.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *47 Knucklehead*
> 
> Exactly. Our company takes credit cards and does online payments. There are a ton of overhead costs and fees involved with every type of payment method (including cash). Just because Apple thinks people should use this, doesn't mean our company will rush out and pay x thousands of dollars for scanners, y dollars a month even if we don't take a single payment, and z percentage of sale as the payment.
> 
> It's expensive enough to pay $400 a machine for a single reader, a monthly fee, and anywhere from 1.75 to 3.25% just to take a credit card. Now I have to go our and get a new monthly fee and a bunch of new readers?
> 
> Pass.


Pretty much


----------



## Schoat333

Open NFC payment, or no NFC payment.

Why is this suddenly a problem just because Apple is involved. Google has been dealing with retailers not accepting NFC (Google Wallet) for a long time. Thats why they created the Google wallet card.


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## pcfoo

We don't know the whole story : i.e. is it just ApplePay vs. BBpay or Walmartpay, or does Apple really want to keep a % bigger than Visa or MasterCard or BBpay and the such could ever ask for = taking bigger part of the profits of these corporations away?

History with iTunes, eBooks etc would of course advocate in favor of the big retailers, and not "righteous" Apple.

Remember, unlike Apple who managed to make it work with insane profit margins, most retailers and especially retailers like WalMart, base their business model on small margin, very high volume sales.
Their ROI is often in the single % digits. If ApplePay requires 1-2% more per transaction than other credit systems, that's 10-20% off the profit of the company. Even if it is .1%, that is 1% of WalMart's profit we are talking about. This is BIIIIIG.

So before we jump on the "Red or Blue" bandwagon, we better get a grip on the reality of the matter. Yes, it is all about money, and might be about convenience, but much like WalMart and now Amazon and other big stores built their royal following after indirectly sabotaging the retail market landscape & destroying small businesses even if it meant lack of profits for a few years (no, some naysayers will say, the market needed to adapt - or die), Apple (& Amazon) made lots of their money buy parasitizing the music and movie industry -> of course with small publishers and non super-star artists being the first to bite the dust - or at least say buy to even those little royalties they had.

Now these ruthless public giants turn on each other, going after bigger chunks of change to please their stockholders, but we keep cheering, cause we think it makes no difference for us & we get to pick which "hero" shark gets to work his way to our pockets. How refreshing.


----------



## coachmark2

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *pcfoo*
> 
> Now these ruthless public giants turn on each other, going after bigger chunks of change to please their stockholders, but we keep cheering, cause we think it makes no difference for us & we get to pick which "hero" shark gets to work his way to our pockets. How refreshing.


If it's that big of an issue, vote literally with your wallet. Pay cash.


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## Acefire

Good for them. As long as antitrust is not involved its all fair game. I love to see things fight apple.


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## Paladin Goo

Apple fans?


----------



## BinaryDemon

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *frickfrock999*
> 
> The billion dollar corporations or the people?


I see no people here, only many different billion dollar corporations fighting for their own interests.


----------



## sepiashimmer

This sounds like paid propaganda by Apple. Android and Apple fans will never unite for something like this.


----------



## Darkpriest667

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *BinaryDemon*
> 
> I see no people here, only many different billion dollar corporations fighting for their own interests.


Hey hey! According to the Supreme Court Billion dollar corporations ARE people.


----------



## pcfoo

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *coachmark2*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *pcfoo*
> 
> Now these ruthless public giants turn on each other, going after bigger chunks of change to please their stockholders, but we keep cheering, cause we think it makes no difference for us & we get to pick which "hero" shark gets to work his way to our pockets. How refreshing.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If it's that big of an issue, vote literally with your wallet. Pay cash.
Click to expand...

This is not always practical. I don't advocate in favor of killing the credit card / app business. It has a place.

It is just a mind boggling double standard to boycott Walmart after all the harm its done to the US economy, only after it crossed swords with Apple, another proven over and over insanely immoral business that doesn't give a rat-****'s worth to fair play, antimonopolies, etc.

There are zero reciprocity values in either of these companies, and people who want to put a positive overall spin on their endeavors is either naïve or a hypocrite.
They are in it for the money and money alone. And that is true for all public companies - for the most part its not up to the board of directors or you "idol CEO" to make such calls. They have to maximize profits. If they want to vote with their money, they do it with some foundation or charity on the side. They cannot do it with the companies money - unless it is for tax deductions of course.

If you want to vote with you money, try not to make a fuss about saving 50 cents on a broomstick (or soda, or meal, or w/e) driving your last neighborhood family store to bankruptcy - if there is one left - and pay them cash. Cause they won't have a massive deal with the credit card company for dealing with billions each fiscal year and it will make a difference for them.

If you don't care and you let em small businesses burn in the sake of convenience, own it. Don't use big words in order to give value to you choice.

*the "you" in this post doesn't refer to coachmark2. Feel free to replace with "we" / "us".


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## r0ach

*Why is there no mention of the motive behind the corporations creating these things is to try and head off BTC?*


----------



## CasualCat

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *r0ach*
> 
> *Why is there no mention of the motive behind the corporations creating these things is to try and head off BTC?*


For there to be a conspiracy it'd require those corporations to actually care about and acknowledge BTC in the first place.


----------



## CJRhoades

Let's try to dispel some of the misinformation here. First, Apple pay works at any NFC terminal without any setup required on the merchants end. To stop consumers from using it, they're completely shutting down their NFC terminals. This also kills other services like Google wallet and NFC credit cards.

Second, merchants are not charged any extra fees for accepting Apple pay. The fee is the same as any standard credit card transaction and that's how it's seen in their system. The fees are instead charged to the banks who are glad to pay it because of the large reduction in fraud liability on their end due to Apple pay's excellent security.

Third, CurrentC is an awful system designed to make things better for te merchant, not the consumer. To use it, you have to unlock your phone, open the app, and then scan a QR code shown to you by the cashier. You also need to link it to a bank account because merchants don't want to pay credit card fees. This leaves you liable for fraud with none of the protections offered by credit cards. Good luck getting your money back if someone clears out your bank account.

I should also mention that CurrentC's terms of service states that they collect health and location data from your phone.


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## xxpenguinxx

Maybe CurrentC is just easier to work with for the businesses.


----------



## DuckieHo

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *r0ach*
> 
> *Why is there no mention of the motive behind the corporations creating these things is to try and head off BTC?*


...because it's not.

The motive behind this is replacing CC and data mining.

Competing NFC payment systems:
SoftCard (formerly Isis)
Google Wallet
Apple Pay
Loop Wallet
PayPal
etc...


----------



## CJRhoades

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *xxpenguinxx*
> 
> Maybe CurrentC is just easier to work with for the businesses.


Of course it is, it was designed to make things better for them. That's why it will fail. There was no thought put torwards making it a good experience for customers.

The former Walmart CEO said it best:
Quote:


> I don't know that MCX will succeed and I don't care. As long as Visa suffers.


----------



## GermanyChris

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CJRhoades*
> 
> Let's try to dispel some of the misinformation here. First, Apple pay works at any NFC terminal without any setup required on the merchants end. To stop consumers from using it, they're completely shutting down their NFC terminals. This also kills other services like Google wallet and NFC credit cards.
> 
> Second, merchants are not charged any extra fees for accepting Apple pay. The fee is the same as any standard credit card transaction and that's how it's seen in their system. The fees are instead charged to the banks who are glad to pay it because of the large reduction in fraud liability on their end due to Apple pay's excellent security.
> 
> Third, CurrentC is an awful system designed to make things better for te merchant, not the consumer. To use it, you have to unlock your phone, open the app, and then scan a QR code shown to you by the cashier. You also need to link it to a bank account because merchants don't want to pay credit card fees. This leaves you liable for fraud with none of the protections offered by credit cards. Good luck getting your money back if someone clears out your bank account.
> 
> I should also mention that CurrentC's terms of service states that they collect health and location data from your phone.


Let's also not forget to bring up the fact that retailers have to replace their terminals next year to accept chipped credit cards or bear responsibility for any fraud. The simple fact is the two pharmacies accepted NFC until last week so there problems aren't technical they're something else. I'd like to know if the contract for currentC prohibits them from accepting any other form of NFC payment? There may be a reason the have to piss off a big section of their customers. I think there is a lot of conclusion jumping without all the info.


----------



## Frankzro

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DuckieHo*
> 
> *Ownership of payment system.*
> What happens when one/few companies takes control of the wireless payment system? You can guarantee fees at that point (much like the CC system today).
> 
> *Customer data.*
> Who ever own the payment system can get a more holistic view of a customer based on their transaction. That means they can better data mine and target the customer. Walmart, Best Buy, etc happen to be stores that wish to sell products to customers as well.


Dat DuckieHo


----------



## Shrak

And I'll continue to pay in cash.

Though, it would be nice if people had the ability to pay in the form they wanted. And in the event you can't pay the way you want at one store, simply take your business elsewhere. But this is why I choose cash, no one refuses cash.


----------



## DuckieHo

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Shrak*
> 
> And I'll continue to pay in cash.
> 
> Though, it would be nice if people had the ability to pay in the form they wanted. And in the event you can't pay the way you want at one store, simply take your business elsewhere. But this is why I choose cash, no one refuses cash.


...except online stores?


----------



## Dranx

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CasualCat*
> 
> Don't think Best Buy is in a position to be alienating anyone with falling market share/profits.


Maybe actions like these are why they market share and profits are falling. I dunno. I feel like half the time I could run these big corporations better than the CEOs do, but what do I know as an outsider.


----------



## Shrak

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DuckieHo*
> 
> ...except online stores?


I tried throwing my money at the screen but nothing happened









Yes, online stores are the odd one out... not much choice there, and I unfortunately do a lot of shopping online ( mainly electronics though since Best Buy and others simply can't compete most of the time ).


----------



## Fifth Horseman

I'll continue using my Capitol One card. Do these pay services offer cash back rewards? Do they offer 24/7 security and help? and as i understand it none of these service actually offer a credit line. It is just as easy for me to bust out my card as it is my phone.

The big shocker here is for those that are saying the new payment is faster. I would argue nothing will be faster because we are all still waiting on the receipt to print out. For a while now i will pay for something at walmart with my card and twiddle my thumbs while i wait for the receipt to print. Are people just not going to wait for receipts now?


----------



## GermanyChris

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Fifth Horseman*
> 
> I'll continue using my Capitol One card. Do these pay services offer cash back rewards? Do they offer 24/7 security and help? and as i understand it none of these service actually offer a credit line. It is just as easy for me to bust out my card as it is my phone.
> 
> The big shocker here is for those that are saying the new payment is faster. I would argue nothing will be faster because we are all still waiting on the receipt to print out. For a while now i will pay for something at walmart with my card and twiddle my thumbs while i wait for the receipt to print. Are people just not going to wait for receipts now?


No they offer more security while giving you all the benefits you listed


----------



## EniGma1987

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Stealth Pyros*
> 
> I don't get why the retailers are having such an outlash against NFC? How does it benefit them to disallow NFC and bring in their own new method of payment? It's not like they charge you extra to use X method of payment... Do they somehow get charged an extra fee for each NFC transaction they do?


They are so against it because it will cost a TON of money for all the device updates required to receive the proper NFC signal from Apple and Android devices, so they dont want to pay it. In cases like Walmart and best Buy that would be in the millions of Dollars. Their own competing payment scheme requires no extra hardware from them, so it is far easier to implement and works on just about any device. Wireless payments through NFC to accounts will also not get them around the 2-3% few these retailers pay to Mastercard and Visa per transaction, where their own payment way will stop them from having to always do this. Which then saves them millions of Dollars a year. Apple also takes their own cut from where in the system every time Apple Pay is used, instead of the "swipe fee" that goes to the bank that issued the card, Apple now gets a portion from that. So it all comes down to money, and retailers dont want to keep having to shell out more for something that only costs them and wont generate any more money for themselves. Would you really want to spend a ton of your own money for something that only costs you?
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *coachmark2*
> 
> The payment method that the retailers are pushing, CurrentC, is a badly concealed attempt at data mining. CurrentC is worse than Facebook when it comes to gobbling up user data and using it for targeted ads or worse.


Um, and Apple and Google wont be data mining through all your purchases that run through their systems? Lol.


----------



## GermanyChris

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *EniGma1987*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Stealth Pyros*
> 
> I don't get why the retailers are having such an outlash against NFC? How does it benefit them to disallow NFC and bring in their own new method of payment? It's not like they charge you extra to use X method of payment... Do they somehow get charged an extra fee for each NFC transaction they do?
> 
> 
> 
> *They are so against it because it will cost a TON of money for all the device updates required to receive the proper NFC signal from Apple and Android devices, so they dont want to pay it.* In cases like Walmart and best Buy that would be in the millions of Dollars. Their own competing payment scheme requires no extra hardware from them, so it is far easier to implement and works on just about any device. Wireless payments through NFC to accounts will also not get them around the 2-3% few these retailers pay to Mastercard and Visa per transaction, where their own payment way will stop them from having to always do this. Which then saves them millions of Dollars a year. Apple also takes their own cut from where in the system every time Apple Pay is used, instead of the "swipe fee" that goes to the bank that issued the card, Apple now gets a portion from that. So it all comes down to money, and retailers dont want to keep having to shell out more for something that only costs them and wont generate any more money for themselves. Would you really want to spend a ton of your own money for something that only costs you?
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *coachmark2*
> 
> The payment method that the retailers are pushing, CurrentC, is a badly concealed attempt at data mining. CurrentC is worse than Facebook when it comes to gobbling up user data and using it for targeted ads or worse.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Um, and Apple and Google wont be data mining through all your purchases that run through their systems? Lol.
Click to expand...

No..

They already have NFC and they allowed Apple Pay and Google Wallet until last week, and it costs no more money than a regular CC transaction.


----------



## coachmark2

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *EniGma1987*
> 
> Um, and Apple and Google wont be data mining through all your purchases that run through their systems? Lol.


You didn't read the end of my post. Well done.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *coachmark2*
> The retailers do not LIKE the fact that someone else might be getting a piece of that pie (*That is, Apple is lying and intercepting payment histories, etc*) or that the pie of pillaged user-data might be kept from them (That is, Apple is telling the truth and really is protecting their customer's data).


I presented that as a potential line of reasoning as to why the retailers do not like Apple Pay. Not as a statement of fact.


----------



## EniGma1987

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *GermanyChris*
> 
> No..
> 
> They already have NFC and they allowed Apple Pay and Google Wallet until last week, and it costs no more money than a regular CC transaction.


Most do not, only the new ones that are being built and a handful of old ones. None of the Walmarts around where I live carry any such checkout devices. Oh and here is another bit of info I found earlier:
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *The Wall Street Journal*
> Best Buy Co., for example, installed NFC-enabled scanners in many of its stores but switched them off in 2011 because the cost of supporting the platform was too high, the company spokesman said.
> 
> ...
> Smaller merchants in particular were reluctant to install the systems-which can cost $300 to $500 per device-because few consumers were using them. Moreover, merchant fees for mobile-payment systems can be higher than for plastic cards, particularly for debit cards, Mr. Crone said.


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *coachmark2*
> 
> You didn't read the end of my post. Well done.
> I presented that as a potential line of reasoning as to why the retailers do not like Apple Pay. Not as a statement of fact.


Your right I missed that part of your post. I hate it when people do that to me and then post something ******ed.


----------



## i7Stealth1366

Walmart and Best Buy are two of the worst big box stores around. They treat their employees like crap and try to trick uninformed consumers.


----------



## ryboto

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Fifth Horseman*
> 
> I'll continue using my Capitol One card. Do these pay services offer cash back rewards? Do they offer 24/7 security and help? and as i understand it none of these service actually offer a credit line. It is just as easy for me to bust out my card as it is my phone.
> 
> The big shocker here is for those that are saying the new payment is faster. I would argue nothing will be faster because we are all still waiting on the receipt to print out. For a while now i will pay for something at walmart with my card and twiddle my thumbs while i wait for the receipt to print. Are people just not going to wait for receipts now?


I agree with you. The one thing all of these seem to lack is security. When I was in Europe the chip&pin was everywhere, and even though my US based CC had a chip with a Pin, everyone still just asked for my signature. Would love to see more pin based payments for CCs in the US, but it'll likely take too long and one of these wireless payment systems will become popular first.


----------



## CJRhoades

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ryboto*
> 
> I agree with you. The one thing all of these seem to lack is security.


You might wana take another look at exactly how Apple pay works. It's by far the most secure way to pay AND you still get all the rewards your credit card offers.


----------



## ryboto

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CJRhoades*
> 
> You might wana take another look at exactly how Apple pay works. It's by far the most secure way to pay AND you still get all the rewards your credit card offers.


Yea, but I'd never do any kind of payment through a phone, that's just me. Especially not with a phone I'd choose to own.


----------



## Ghoxt

Has there been any major form of encryption widely in use not cracked within 5 years? I know earlier this year a version of RSA was hacked...as well. I really don't like the over the air part of this handshake regardless of which company it is.


----------



## PostalTwinkie

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Mand12*
> 
> I dunno...I mean if you're doing something that makes Apple and Android people hate you more than they hate each other, that might not be a wise plan.


Literally this.

If you can't recognize, as a retailer, that you just did something so bad that it pissed off Apple and Android users - pushing them to join forces, then you just need to close up shop.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *47 Knucklehead*
> 
> Exactly. Our company takes credit cards and does online payments. There are a ton of overhead costs and fees involved with every type of payment method (including cash). Just because Apple thinks people should use this, doesn't mean our company will rush out and pay x thousands of dollars for scanners, y dollars a month even if we don't take a single payment, and z percentage of sale as the payment.
> 
> It's expensive enough to pay $400 a machine for a single reader, a monthly fee, and anywhere from 1.75 to 3.25% just to take a credit card. Now I have to go our and get a new monthly fee and a bunch of new readers?
> 
> Pass.


Very good point - it is about options, costs/benefit.

One thing to say _"It doesn't make financial sense, the benefit doesn't outweigh the cost."_, something different to do it because you are backing another option. In this case, an option that I never heard of until today. Which I don't think I am alone on.

At any rate, doesn't seem like a good move to bar the option, considering how popular it seems to be getting.


----------



## Chakravant

I'd honestly feel much more secure shopping at a location that took cash only and denied any form of credit card/NFC. I'd know I wasn't being datamined, and I'd know the company I was giving money to both didn't have that overhead and didn't have the security issues that comes with these kinds of systems.

Then again, I have no fear of walking down the street with thousands of dollars in my pocket, so I may not be the target audience.


----------



## adamkatt

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CasualCat*
> 
> Don't think Best Buy is in a position to be alienating anyone with falling market share/profits.


Best Buy is good for one thing: Trying out a device before you buy elsewhere. Heck, I bought the Xbox One there on purpose so I could return it since all I wanted to do was try out the new features in the kinect. I would purchase from Best Buy more if they would stop asking me if I want to buy this, that that and this at the check out. The last big thing I purchased from Best Buy was an All in One for my mother and I swear they asked me 30 questions I had to basically take a "survey" just to buy the product that I had cash for.


----------



## Defoler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *coachmark2*
> 
> Apple is one of those "billion dollar corporations" Frick. It's not the people vs the corporations. It's one corporation's (Apple) system of payment (Apple Pay) vs what the retailers would prefer to use.
> 
> Vote with your dollars people. Shop at the place that gives you the most utility per dollar spent. Note that part of that utility _could_ be in the amount of options you have for payment at checkout time. Unusual, but not unheard of or irrational.
> True. Retailers can choose which methods of payment they would like to accept.
> Apple Pay is very tightly secured. TLS + Strong encryption with cert checking, etc. There is almost no ability to tamper with the transaction data. The payment method that the retailers are pushing, CurrentC, is a badly concealed attempt at data mining. CurrentC is worse than Facebook when it comes to gobbling up user data and using it for targeted ads or worse.
> 
> The retailers do not LIKE the fact that someone else might be getting a piece of that pie (That is, Apple is lying and intercepting payment histories, etc) or that the pie of pillaged user-data might be kept from them (That is, Apple is telling the truth and really is protecting their customer's data).


There is more than just data mining. And there is more than enough data mining for the retailers even through apple apps.

But you are missing the fact that retailers are putting money out there to build their NFC system. This means the readers, the database, paying for the connection to the credit companies or banks.
This cost money. ALOT of money.

And apple comes with their own solution, and expect the retailers to support it.
its like you pay for your internet connection, and your neighbour comes to your house, connect their cable to your modem/router and tell you "well, you already have internet, might as well share it" without even asking you.

So this is not to their liking. Apple from what I have read, demand that retailers support it, but are unwilling to share the load of payment on this system. Apple wants money from someone else's work. Apple expect retailers to make this work instead of working with them together.
This most likely angers them a lot, so of course they will block apple pay until either costumers really demand it, or apple realise it can't just bully retailers and have to start working and paying for this to work.

Apple in general say "I'm bringing in the customers", but this not really true. retailers will not see larger customer base because of apple pay. So not supporting apple pay will not reduce their sales really. Customer boycott things without understanding how the business works will eventually stop, and people will go back to buying from them.


----------



## Tom1121

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *CJRhoades*
> 
> Let's try to dispel some of the misinformation here. First, Apple pay works at any NFC terminal without any setup required on the merchants end. To stop consumers from using it, they're completely shutting down their NFC terminals. This also kills other services like Google wallet and NFC credit cards.
> 
> Second, merchants are not charged any extra fees for accepting Apple pay. The fee is the same as any standard credit card transaction and that's how it's seen in their system. The fees are instead charged to the banks who are glad to pay it because of the large reduction in fraud liability on their end due to Apple pay's excellent security.
> 
> Third, CurrentC is an awful system designed to make things better for te merchant, not the consumer. To use it, you have to unlock your phone, open the app, and then scan a QR code shown to you by the cashier. You also need to link it to a bank account because merchants don't want to pay credit card fees. This leaves you liable for fraud with none of the protections offered by credit cards. Good luck getting your money back if someone clears out your bank account.
> 
> I should also mention that CurrentC's terms of service states that they collect health and location data from your phone.


This. There's a ton of misinformation in this thread, mostly due to Apple hating.


----------



## alcal

Does anybody remember that Eve online heist where the guy who owned a huge bank just took all the money, bought the nicest ship in the game, placed a bounty on his own head and sailed off into space? For some reason, I get the feeling that Tim Cook will someday, somehow, do just that. Drain all $180bn from Apple, drain another hundred bn or so from Apple pay customers, buy Virgin Galactic and sail off into space.


----------



## 47 Knucklehead

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *i7Stealth1366*
> 
> Walmart and Best Buy are two of the worst big box stores around. They treat their employees like crap and try to trick uninformed consumers.


If you own a $700 phone that costs $100+ a month for a cell phone plan and you are going to Walmart ... you seriously need to reevaluate your priorities.


----------



## PostalTwinkie

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *47 Knucklehead*
> 
> If you own a $700 phone that costs $100+ a month for a cell phone plan and you are going to Walmart ... you seriously need to reevaluate your priorities.












All too common, especially since you can get Welfare to pay your cellphone now. Man, I hate that store.


----------



## LaBestiaHumana

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *47 Knucklehead*
> 
> If you own a $700 phone that costs $100+ a month for a cell phone plan and you are going to Walmart ... you seriously need to reevaluate your priorities.


What does shopping at Walmart have to do with having a 1k Phone and 150a month AT&T plan? I have a Walmart across the street, and buy milk and diapers and detergent from there all the time. In and out in 10mins.







I still don't see how I should re evaluate my priorities.


----------



## Gorea

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PostalTwinkie*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> All too common, especially since *you can get Welfare to pay your cellphone now*. Man, I hate that store.


Wow, really? Just when I thought this country couldn't get any lower..


----------



## Glottis

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *frickfrock999*
> 
> This is the only time in recorded history that Apple and Android fans have stood together.


What are you on about? I'm Android user and couldn't care less about this, I certainly don't stand together. So please don't speak for all Android users like you know them.


----------



## Shrak

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Glottis*
> 
> What are you on about? I'm Android user and couldn't care less about this, I certainly don't stand together. So please don't speak for all Android users like you know them.














































































































What are YOU on about?


----------



## L D4WG

Barring Apple and Android devices.... Yes that's a great idea, that cant end badly for these corporations lol.


----------



## Addict1973

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DuckieHo*
> 
> ...except online stores?


Doesn't anyone just use debit and be done with it. Is this simply about credit purchases?


----------



## pony-tail

I still use a "dumb phone" and pay by cash most of the time ( If I do not have the cash - I can't afford it . principle ).
Yeah , I am the guy in the cue that F***s up the swipe and go people - just like the add . So the affect this will have on me will be different to most - but realistically I do not want another multi billion dollar American company or group of companies dipping into my funds . This most likely will get to Australia - but I hope not .


----------



## DuckieHo

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Addict1973*
> 
> Doesn't anyone just use debit and be done with it. Is this simply about credit purchases?


Using debit gives you less protection than credit.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *pony-tail*
> 
> I still use a "dumb phone" and pay by cash most of the time ( If I do not have the cash - I can't afford it . principle ).
> Yeah , I am the guy in the cue that F***s up the swipe and go people - just like the add . So the affect this will have on me will be different to most - but realistically I do not wast another multi billion dollar American company or group of companies dipping into my funds . This most likely will get to Australia - but I hope not .


Cash is less convenient... and riskier...

Would you feel comfortable carrying a few hundred around?

What happens if your cash gets stolen? What protections do you have?


----------



## pony-tail

Quote:


> Cash is less convenient... and riskier...
> 
> Would you feel comfortable carrying a few hundred around?
> 
> What happens if your cash gets stolen? What protections do you have?


Where I live , I have not heard of a mugging in the last 30 odd years .


----------



## Omega X

What I find weird about the big data thing is that Walmart and the MCX mobsters already know what their consumers buy. So, why the convoluted pay system for anything other than cutting out transaction fees?

Surely Visa/Mastercard/AMEX/Discover only knows the stores people buy from but not the contents, unless those companies have to turn over that data. It would be similar for Apple/Google/ISIS/Paypal, only knowing the places you buy from, never the contents. Unless of course the CurrentC app is meaning to scrape more than just transaction items.

On a side note, some smartphone users seems to know nothing how Google Wallet works making them believe that its not secure. Google signed up with Bancorp Inc to issue virtual Mastercard tokens to users Wallet accounts and authorizes the payment by passing the virtual card token and validating the pin over secure connection similar to Apple with fingerprint tokens. Retailers never get the real card numbers, but its handled by the Mastercard system which is why most retailers never cared before Apple Pay because its the same old credit card fee.

Google had the exact same setup as Apple has now when Wallet first was released. But it was held hostage by ISIS carriers by blocking the ability to use the secure element in the SIM and delayed even more by trying to convince individual banks to sign up. Only Citibank signed up at the time. Google changed the process so that there was zero friction with banks and card companies but it meant keeping the true payment information on Google's secure servers for authorization and using a CPU based emulation process on the phone instead of the blocked off secured element. However, current Android smartphone SoCs are shipping with security extensions standardized by ARM, so that issue is largely moot.

In the end, both Apple Pay and Google Wallet can use the same NFC system with no issues because they're effectively similar. Which brings me back to the gist of my original question. What is the true motivation other than controlling payments? OR is controlling all payments THE true motivation. Credit card companies don't lose with the Apple/Google/ISIS/Paypal system, but stand to lose everything with CurrentC.


----------



## Deuce65

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *frickfrock999*
> 
> So it all depends on who's more powerful.
> 
> The billion dollar corporations or the people?


I realize i'm a little late to this party but, I don't really see this as the billion dollar corporations versus the people. I see it as this group of billion dollar corporations versus that group of billion dollar corporations.


----------



## lacrossewacker

Why would "Android fans" boycott anything in support of Apple pay?


----------



## OC'ing Noob

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *lacrossewacker*
> 
> Why would "Android fans" boycott anything in support of Apple pay?


Reading helps








Quote:


> The hope is that by boycotting some of the smaller branches and sending in complaints, they will crack and allow not only Apple Pay, but all NFC payments to be used in the store. This would open up Google Wallet and other NFC payment solutions.
> 
> Read more: http://www.chinatopix.com/articles/19011/20141027/apple-android-fans-look-boycott-retailers-blocking-pay.htm#ixzz3I0r4aoGQ


----------



## dieanotherday

I think I'm going to continue to use my credit card and let the powers that be handle my transactions....


----------



## iSlayer

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ghoxt*
> 
> Has there been any major form of encryption widely in use not cracked within 5 years? I know earlier this year a version of RSA was hacked...as well. I really don't like the over the air part of this handshake regardless of which company it is.


That was RSA 2048 I believe?

A lot of things in compsec are brute force only to crack or require vast compute resources still. RSA 4096, AES-256, SHA-2/3, ECDSA (specific curves like prime 256), Triple DES, etc...


----------



## DuckieHo

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *pony-tail*
> 
> Where I live , I have not heard of a mugging in the last 30 odd years .


Never a lost wallet?
Never a wallet dropped in the dunny?
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *iSlayer*
> 
> That was RSA 2048 I believe?
> 
> A lot of things in compsec are brute force only to crack or require vast compute resources still. RSA 4096, AES-256, SHA-2/3, ECDSA (specific curves like prime 256), Triple DES, etc...


I don't there are any major known exploitable weakness to RSA at this point.

RSA 2048 and RSA 4096 are the same algorithm except with a big key. If the RSA algorithm was found faulty, then a larger key would only help mitigate an issue. That's not the same as saying brute-force is now fast enough to break smaller keys in reasonable time.

Besides, algorithm's themselves are not "hacked".... He might be confused the hack on "RSA Security" which is a security company. The company's name is from the founders of the RSA algorithm but the company and the algo are not the same.


----------



## iSlayer

RSA isn't my thing but my understanding was 2048 is falling out of practice.

OFC fundamentally there isn't a known hole in RSA, rumors of NSA tampering yes.

Incorrect implementations remain the biggest threat to any security system. Who needs to brute force through RSA 4096 when you have people using cryptographically insecure RNG.

Remind me again Ducky where does your crypto knowledge/experience come from? You seem to know the basics.


----------



## Nexus-7

Semi-tangent I suppose, but I've seen it pop up in most of the Apple Pay / Google Wallet discussion threads:

I don't get the "cash only" people. I've never paid a cent of interest in my entire credit card history. Fees to credit card companies tend to be built into the cost of the item that you're buying. The only place I've seen different prices for cash vs. credit is at _some_ gas stations. So, if the price is the same then why not collect on the 1-3% rewards for all your purchases? For example, one of my credit cards gives me cash rewards into my retirement account. Beyond that, credit cards can have the benefit of additional warranty coverage, return protection, travel perquisites, and car rental benefits. If you use cash then you're basically paying 1-3% more and getting a worse warranty on all the electronics that OCN people love to buy. Plus, using credit cards responsibly builds your credit for when you need to make automobile and home purchases.

TLDR: I find that credit cards are a valuable financial tool. Making them more secure and easier to use is a win.


----------



## DuckieHo

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *iSlayer*
> 
> Remind me again Ducky where does your crypto knowledge/experience come from? You seem to know the basics.


Computer engineering background with general software development work. I have a very strong understanding of SSH/SFTP and PGP.


----------



## pony-tail

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DuckieHo*
> 
> Never a lost wallet?
> Never a wallet dropped in the dunny?
> I don't there are any major known exploitable weakness to RSA at this point.
> 
> RSA 2048 and RSA 4096 are the same algorithm except with a big key. If the RSA algorithm was found faulty, then a larger key would only help mitigate an issue. That's not the same as saying brute-force is now fast enough to break smaller keys in reasonable time.
> 
> Besides, algorithm's themselves are not "hacked".... He might be confused the hack on "RSA Security" which is a security company. The company's name is from the founders of the RSA algorithm but the company and the algo are not the same.


Lost a wallet about 15 years ago at a pub got the wallet back intact all but the cash .


----------



## Fresh Sheep

Even though nfc seems to be pretty huge in aus I still pay with cash or card just because I need my wallet to hold other things such as myki (public transport card), my uni id, drivers license and a couple of other things. Adding a credit/debit card to the mix really doesn't weigh me down any more so I don't see any reason not to bring it along.

For the people using this, do they just not bring their drivers license, etc. out with them at all?


----------



## Redwoodz

Oh yeah,let's add another way to put sensitive personal financial information out in the matrix. People are so damn lazy cant even swipe a card. Mark my words this is nothing but trouble for no good reason. Just ask Jennifer Lawrence. Watch the all the sheeple walk off the cliff.


----------



## GermanyChris

Except your swiped card is more vulnerable that either AP or GW.


----------



## Shrak




----------



## t00sl0w

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Shrak*
> 
> Lul
> Shhh, let him live in his dream.
> 
> Funny enough, sooner or later ( if not already ) most credit cards will have NFC chips in them anyways. I know mine does, though I haven't bothered with it.
> 
> Not to mention;
> 
> You can lose your card, and whoever finds it can use it.
> You can have your card skimmed ( very popular in Europe, only really just becoming a big deal in the U.S., though very old trick )
> If it has built in NFC chip, again... easy enough to "skim" it and copy it by just walking by.
> Not to mention the way Apple has done it, is definitely more secure so far than previous forms. Not giving out the actual card information, but a one time use code with each "swipe". So he can take his Apple hate elsewhere.
> 
> Not sure how swiping a phone is any less lazy than swiping a card... though, has the Apple hate really rotted his head that much?


do you mean RFID in credit cards?
I thought NFC had a key exchange which would protect it unless there was a "man in the middle" attack on the communication?
RFID is the tech where you can simply walk up to someone and steal all the data off each item that utilizes it.


----------



## Shrak




----------



## Tivan

Paying in cash is fun, too.


----------



## g00s3y

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Tivan*
> 
> Paying in cash is fun, too.


What is this cash you speak of?


----------



## Clazman55

One way or another this will all be worked out. Every couple of years there is some hoopla in the consumer sector about new methods to purchase goods.

NFC is pretty cool, I just don't have a need to use in my daily life.

I bank with a credit union that offers all the same credit card protections on their debit cards, so that line of reasoning is moot in my personal anecdotal case.


----------



## GermanyChris

The problem is next year the responsibility for fraud will be pushed from the banks to the retailer next year. NFC is safer that means safer for all involved.


----------



## Ghoxt

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DuckieHo*
> He might be confused the hack on "RSA Security" which is a security company. The company's name is from the founders of the RSA algorithm but the company and the algo are not the same.


I looked it up, and you are correct the company RSA Security got hacked.

Quote: NYTimes Source


> How did a hacker manage to infiltrate one of the world's top computer-security companies? And could the data that was stolen be used to impair its SecurID products, which are used by 40 million businesses that are trying to keep their own networks safe from intruders?
> 
> The division of the EMC Corporation is staying mum about what exactly was stolen from its computer systems, aside from that it was data related to SecurID.


----------

