# [Various] AMD Mantle release (BF4)



## Zaid

Well if i go AMD, i guess i can keep my 3770k for the next 6 years.


----------



## Forceman

Here's a tabulated version (from PCPer)
Quote:


> Core i7-4960X CPU + R9 290X GPU
> 1080p, Ultra Preset, 4xAA: 9.2% improvement with Mantle
> 1600p, Ultra Preset, 4xAA: 10% improvement with Mantle
> Core i7-4960X CPU + R7 260X GPU
> 1080p, Ultra Preset, 4xAA: 2.7% improvement
> 1600p, Ultra Preset, 4xAA: 1.4% improvement
> A10-7700K CPU + R9 290X GPU
> 1080p, Ultra Preset, 4xAA: 40.9% improvement
> 1600p, Ultra Preset, 4xAA: 17.3% improvement
> A10-7700K CPU + R7 260X GPU
> 1080p, Ultra Preset, 4xAA: 8.3% improvement
> 1600p, Low Preset: 16.8% improvement


http://www.pcper.com/reviews/Graphics-Cards/AMD-Catalyst-141-Beta-Driver-Brings-Mantle-Support-Frame-Pacing-Phase-2-HSA


----------



## vloeibaarglas

AMD taking responsibility for their horrible IPC. Devising solution to alleviate AMD cpu bottlenecks.


----------



## sugarhell

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *vloeibaarglas*
> 
> AMD taking responsibility for their horrible IPC. Devising solution to alleviate AMD cpu bottlenecks.


----------



## Cyro999

Sorely dissapointed.

We needed the new API, the better use of CPU resources, but mantle GCN acceleration? The only reason this is pulling close to 10% performance gains in bf4 is because it's CPU limited at times, at least for some slow frames, even on such a hardware setup.

This isn't some 15 or 30% that AMD fans hyped it up to be, and i don't remember mantle being advertised as "uses cpu really efficiently!! oh and it also might boost radeon by a few %" at GPU14 or other events.

It seems the main feature of mantle (more efficient usage of cpu) will be thrown to all GPU users, while the gcn acceleration is hardly relevant.

Of course, if the CPU stuff is radeon only.. 120hz users would be forced to go AMD GPU, because 4670k+mantle+280x would outperform 4770k+dual780ti if they were trying to target a smooth 120fps in Battlefield 4, due to CPU limits exposed here. It would also be a massive blow to the ecosystem


----------



## Astonished

Wow, pretty impressive..


----------



## Phaethon666

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *vloeibaarglas*
> 
> AMD taking responsibility for their horrible IPC. Devising solution to alleviate AMD cpu bottlenecks.


Sounds like a good good thing for me


----------



## Baghi

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Forceman*
> 
> Here's a tabulated version (from PCPer)
> http://www.pcper.com/reviews/Graphics-Cards/AMD-Catalyst-141-Beta-Driver-Brings-Mantle-Support-Frame-Pacing-Phase-2-HSA


Weak CPU seeing significant performance increase with Mantle; this is what AMD was/is after.


----------



## Azuredragon1

Can't wait to test it out on 64 players servers where my 4670k gets hit hard.


----------



## Baghi

Sort of repost: http://www.overclock.net/t/1463245/techgage-amd-shares-fresh-mantle-numbers-promises-driver-to-support-it-soon


----------



## Yvese

Curious about CF results.


----------



## geoxile

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Baghi*
> 
> Weak CPU seeing significant performance increase with Mantle; this is what AMD was/is after.


10% with a 4960X and a 290X is no trifle matter either. Too bad they didn't show i5 quad core benchmarks.


----------



## Ultracarpet

So lets say bf4 will run the same with my 8350 clocked at 2 ghz as it will at 4 ghz because of mantle.... what could all that extra cpu horsepower get used for in games?


----------



## TFL Replica

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Yvese*
> 
> Curious about CF results.


CF support will be added later.

Quote from Techgage:


> That said, even when the initial support does get here, AMD stresses that it'll be a true beta, and that performance will no doubt be enhanced over time, as well as *launch bugs (such as the inability to take advantage of Mantle in a multi-GPU setup)* prevalent.


----------



## Germanian

the problem is it's only available for R9 290 series. Good thing i sold my 7950s









They will update mantle for the other series when it's less buggy


----------



## Phaethon666

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ultracarpet*
> 
> So lets say bf4 will run the same with my 8350 clocked at 2 ghz as it will at 4 ghz because of mantle.... what could all that extra cpu horsepower get used for in games?


Bit coining? *cough hehehe


----------



## Azuredragon1

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ultracarpet*
> 
> So lets say bf4 will run the same with my 8350 clocked at 2 ghz as it will at 4 ghz.... what could all that extra cpu horsepower get used for?


Better physics,AI,sound, anything a developer wants to do without worrying about the overhead of DirectX


----------



## sugarhell

Pre-set means single player. Now lets bench MP


----------



## incog

40,9% improvement for the 290X coupled with a 7700k ?

That's pretty big. I guess that if you have a low end processor coupled with a decent graphics card, Mantle is going to be very beneficial to you.

However, the 4960X coupled with the 290X also has 9-10% gains, which is nothing to scoff at.

These numbers seem quite realistic as well. So this is shaping up to turn out quite well, we'll have to see how 7850k crossfired with a 250 does. With Mantle the numbers could turn out to be interesting.

This is definitely going to get a little more oomph out of aging rigs that aren't totally obsolete yet. I have a Q6600 laying around with an HD 3450. I could easily buy a 260X or something equivalent and make the rig relevant for a longer period of time. I still need to overclock it though.


----------



## Cyro999

Quote:


> However, the 4960X coupled with the 290X also has 9-10% gains, which is nothing to scoff at.


Partially because bf4 has many slow frames down to platform/cpu/ram/api, even on a high end cpu, at least with some settings up. Only a fraction of that is down to GPU acceleration; rest is api fixes, which is nice but it also means that geforce users get much of it


----------



## bmgjet

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Germanian*
> 
> the problem is it's only available for R9 290 series. Good thing i sold my 7950s
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They will update mantle for the other series when it's less buggy


But
A10-7700K CPU + R7 260X GPU


----------



## Ultracarpet

sooo, for someone not around during the glide api days, but aware of the massive crazy difference in performance it had over direct x.... what was it that gave the glide api such an advantage over direct x? was it that all the gpus back then were being held back insanely by the cpus? I am not understand :S


----------



## tsm106

Give me my kaveri laptop with a 290 mobile gpu please!


----------



## tsm106

Hmm Glide was huge when graphics were still run on cpu. Then glide came out and it was like dating a supermodel.


----------



## vloeibaarglas

We need a 64 player multiplayer benchmark with a Ivy/Haswell i5 with a 7950/280x tier card


----------



## sugarhell

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ultracarpet*
> 
> sooo, for someone not around during the glide api days, but aware of the massive crazy difference in performance it had over direct x.... what was it that gave the glide api such an advantage over direct x? was it that all the gpus back then were being held back insanely by the cpus? I am not understand :S


It was pure CMT.And the directx back then was bad. Really bad


----------



## Ultracarpet

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *tsm106*
> 
> Give me my kaveri laptop with a 290 mobile gpu please!


kaveri laptops are starting to make me salivate....


----------



## l No l FeaR l

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Germanian*
> 
> the problem is it's only available for R9 290 series. Good thing i sold my 7950s
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They will update mantle for the other series when it's less buggy


Isn't it available for all GCN cards?...


----------



## tsm106

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *l No l FeaR l*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Germanian*
> 
> the problem is it's only available for R9 290 series. Good thing i sold my 7950s
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> They will update mantle for the other series when it's less buggy
> 
> 
> 
> Isn't it available for all GCN cards?...
Click to expand...

Yea, it's only enabled for Hawaii gpus atm.


----------



## Yvese

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *TFL Replica*
> 
> CF support will be added later.


Ah that's unfortunate.

Free performance is free performance I guess.


----------



## Ultracarpet

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *tsm106*
> 
> Hmm Glide was huge when graphics were still run on cpu. Then glide came out and it was like dating a supermodel.


oooohhh... well that makes more sense. Then Mantle really just interests me in what extra things can be done with all the untouched cpu horsepower.


----------



## vloeibaarglas

Mantle is designed for MMORPG and RTS imo.

If Guild Wars 2 or Planetside 2 can implement Mantle, maybe we can get more than 30 fps in large fights regardless of setup.


----------



## tsm106

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ultracarpet*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *tsm106*
> 
> Hmm Glide was huge when graphics were still run on cpu. Then glide came out and it was like dating a supermodel.
> 
> 
> 
> oooohhh... well that makes more sense. Then Mantle really just interests me in what extra things can be done with all the untouched cpu horsepower.
Click to expand...

Developers will have two things to chose from or a balance of both with Mantle, either more fps or assets at their disposal.


----------



## Dudewitbow

on how mantle looks, the biggest winner here will probably be laptop owners as their laptop counterpart is generally not as fast as their desktop counterpart. a major example are those users who bought MSI GX60's (A10-4600m with a 7970m)

edit: once full support is released


----------



## Sisaroth

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *tsm106*
> 
> Developers will have two things to chose from or a balance of both with Mantle, either more fps or assets at their disposal.


Or they do neither of the of two which is what nearly every dev does (how many games use 100% cpu? i only know BF3 and BF4). There is a lot of performance left on the CPU and almost no one uses it because making a game multithreaded is hard.


----------



## TheRoot

where true audio


----------



## Offler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Dudewitbow*
> 
> on how mantle looks, the biggest winner here will probably be laptop owners


Agree. But the gaming segment start to change since AMD came with APU concept. Even first versions of FM socked allowed 4 cores, and decent graphics and very reasonable price. So if you chosen to build up HTPC instead of buying console, and your APU has GCN cores, then you can benefit from this too.

At all i like they targeted the weakest point of current PC gaming. And thats the performance drops due CPU/API bottlenecks.

Also BF4, its not 45 percent as was advertised, its true. Average is 21 percent, but I dont have the game and I did NOT performed any tests how much time is limiting factor GPU and how much CPU. You have to consider this.

What I am interested in is StarSwarm demo. YOu know... amount of rendered polygons is currently limited due CPU and DX... Mantle is going to allow much more polygons in future gaming. Think about that a little.


----------



## TheLawIX

This is exactly what I expected to happen but was hoping for more. Maybe we'll see better results when Mantle matures.


----------



## LiquidHaus

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *tsm106*
> 
> Yea, it's only enabled for Hawaii gpus atm.


Any idea on Tahiti support? I was assuming my 7970s would get support with this..

EDIT: Nvm,

Seems it's more than just Hawaii gpus like I thought.

Here is a quote from the actual article:
Quote:


> "That changes today as Phase 2 of the AMD Frame Pacing feature has finally been implemented for products that do not feature the XDMA technology (found in Hawaii GPUs for example). That includes HD 7000-series GPUs, the R9 280X and 270X cards, as well as older generation products and Dual Graphics hardware combinations such as the new Kaveri APU and R7 250. I have already tested Kaveri and the R7 250 in fact, and you can read about its scaling and experience improvements right here. That means that users of the HD 7970, R9 280X, etc., as well as those of you with HD 7990 dual-GPU cards, will finally be able to utilize the power of both GPUs in your system with 4K displays and Eyefinity configurations!"


----------



## Forceman

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *lifeisshort117*
> 
> Any idea on Tahiti support? I was assuming my 7970s would get support with this..
> 
> EDIT: Nvm,
> 
> Seems it's more than just Hawaii gpus like I thought.
> 
> Here is a quote from the actual article:


I think Mantle is only for Hawaii cards, the frame pacing fix is for non-Hawaii cards (since it was already fixed for Hawaii).


----------



## Wiffinberg

Sooo.... When can I download this?


----------



## Scorched912

This actually isn't too bad, I mean, it's a free update.


----------



## Clocknut

Great AMD just extend 2011 socket CPU another 5yrs lol

I guess u wont get bottleneck if u put a 4930K CPU with a pair of future super GPU Radeon *R9-490X/590X.*


----------



## infranoia

So does this Phase 2 finally cover DX9 frame pacing as well? I ask for Skyrim's sake.


----------



## Roaches

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Clocknut*
> 
> Great AMD just extend 2011 socket CPU another 5yrs lol
> 
> I guess u wont get bottleneck if u put a 4930K CPU with a pair of future super GPU Radeon *R9-490X/590X.*


Pretty much every modern socket with quads and above on both camps


----------



## Hukkel

Are these like the two most far from eachother?
For example what about using it with an AMD 6 or 8 core cpu?

Not many gamers use an APU or the most expensive desktop cpu. Most of them use a mid-to-high range cpu.


----------



## Clocknut

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Hukkel*
> 
> Are these like the two most far from eachother?
> For example what about using it with an AMD 6 or 8 core cpu?
> 
> Not many gamers use an APU or the most expensive desktop cpu. Most of them use a mid-to-high range cpu.


it means u can get a 4670K instead of 4930K. the money saved is better off getting another GPU.

Wheres if u are running an Nvidia card, u gonna need a more expensive CPU to get similar result


----------



## -Droid-

I'll happily take my free dose of extra perfomance, thank you! It's not like i paid extra for my 280x, actually less than a 770









Should be good for a 10-15% improvement paired with my OC 2500k.


----------



## Alatar

As expected pretty much the only benefits to fps come from removing some CPU overhead.

These are also with stock CPUs, the numbers will just go down even more once you've overclocked your stuff...

But, waiting for 3rd party numbers. Maybe we'll see tests with OC'd stuff then.


----------



## Offler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Clocknut*
> 
> Great AMD just extend 2011 socket CPU another 5yrs lol
> 
> I guess u wont get bottleneck if u put a 4930K CPU with a pair of future super GPU Radeon *R9-490X/590X.*


Yes, if at least your GPU will move to red camp, and the API gets widely adopted by game devs... or Nvidia will be able to adopt Mantle in the next GPU generation...

Edit>

to Alatar:
I expect lower percentual increase as the CPU (and maybe memory overclock) is intended to remove/decrease effect of CPU overhead. The other scenario is that percentual increases will remain the same as total performance will increase.

Then considering this approach, you can archeive better results and GPU utilization with less watts for CPU... Just remember that AMD made some tests on underclocked FX 8350. More threads, lower frequency... At all seems promising.


----------



## Stormscion

no

mantle is not going to be vendor specific ... it will work with nvidia cards as well and entire 7xxx series aka GCN will be supported as well.


----------



## Forceman

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Stormscion*
> 
> no
> 
> mantle is not going to be vendor specific ... it will work with nvidia cards as well and entire 7xxx series aka GCN will be supported as well.


There's no indication that it will ever work with NVidia, just that it isn't limited to only AMD. Big difference, could is not will.


----------



## Bal3Wolf

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Forceman*
> 
> I think Mantle is only for Hawaii cards, the frame pacing fix is for non-Hawaii cards (since it was already fixed for Hawaii).


its for all gcn just older cards might not have it at launch amd has said this already.


----------



## Clocknut

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Alatar*
> 
> As expected pretty much the only benefits to fps come from removing some CPU overhead.
> 
> These are also with stock CPUs, the numbers will just go down even more once you've overclocked your stuff...
> 
> But, waiting for 3rd party numbers. Maybe we'll see tests with OC'd stuff then.


Majority of the desktop user must have their CPU OCed then....


----------



## Forceman

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Bal3Wolf*
> 
> its for all gcn just older cards might not have it at launch amd has said this already.


I know, I meant this driver that's coming tomorrow.


----------



## boot318

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Alatar*
> 
> As expected pretty much the only benefits to fps come from removing some CPU overhead.
> 
> These are also with stock CPUs, the numbers will just go down even more once you've overclocked your stuff...
> 
> But, waiting for 3rd party numbers. Maybe we'll see tests with OC'd stuff then.


Thanks for pointing that out. I'm looking forward to seeing the 'real' numbers that OCN members want to see.


----------



## maarten12100

What but AMD's rep stated over 4% gain in gpu limited scenarios...
How can there be no improvement on the gpu side with to metal coding...

Either BF4 is a poor implementation or they well kinda messed up.


----------



## Clocknut

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *maarten12100*
> 
> What but AMD's rep stated over 4% gain in gpu limited scenarios...
> How can there be no improvement on the gpu side with to metal coding...
> 
> Either BF4 is a poor implementation or they well kinda messed up.


its 10% for 4960X + 290X, well... thats over 4%? isnt it?

I already told many times here, dont expect 45% gain. 20% is the most u could get. Mantle is quite fresh and beta now, yet it already given free 10%. So 20% isnt too far from being unrealistic.

the biggest impact is the min frame rate, I am more interested in this area.


----------



## Alatar

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Clocknut*
> 
> Majority of the desktop user must have their CPU OCed then....


Of course they don't but people on OCN do. I'm just mostly interested in the stuff that applies to enthusiasts. People here are running overclocked intel 6-cores, overclocked haswell stuff etc. I'm interested in seeing what happens with a 5ghz SB-E for example.

Besides, even if we were talking about the majority of gamers with GCN GPUs I don't think mantle is something they should use yet... Unless they're enthusiasts who are just interested in playing with the tech.

-Only support for APUs, Hawaii chips and 260X
-Crossfire basically not supported (big bugs and lots of stuttering)
-limited laptop support
-no portrait mode support
-Since there are so many known issues AMD made a web page specifically for those issues

And that's just what AMD is telling reviewers and enthusiasts.


----------



## maarten12100

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Clocknut*
> 
> its 10% for 4960X + 290X, well... thats over 4%? isnt it?
> 
> I already told many times here, dont expect 45% gain. 20% is the most u could get. Mantle is quite fresh and beta now, yet it already given free 10%. So 20% isnt too far from being unrealistic.
> 
> the biggest impact is the min frame rate, I am more interested in this area.


The AMD rep claimed an over 4% gpu uplift and the gpu uplift is 2.7 and 1.4 respectively.
Still the cpu gains will greatly benefit in multiplayer min frame rate is a lot higher for sure.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Alatar*
> 
> As expected pretty much the only benefits to fps come from removing some CPU overhead.
> 
> These are also with stock CPUs, the numbers will just go down even more once you've overclocked your stuff...
> 
> But, waiting for 3rd party numbers. Maybe we'll see tests with OC'd stuff then.


Great for people that play multiplayer shooters like BF4. Or future RTS games.


----------



## maarten12100

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Alatar*
> 
> -Only support for APUs, Hawaii chips and 260X
> -Crossfire basically not supported (big bugs and lots of stuttering)
> -limited laptop support
> -no portrait mode support
> -Since there are so many known issues AMD made a web page specifically for those issues
> 
> And that's just what AMD is telling reviewers and enthusiasts.


Are those Mantle problems? The article didn't list any of those...


----------



## sugarhell

http://battlelog.battlefield.com/bf4/news/view/bf4-mantle-live/last/

This patch is the first release of our Mantle renderer. We will continue to add improvements, based on your feedback, in upcoming Battlefield 4 updates as well. In particular we plan to focus next on adding multi-GPU frame pacing and a few additional GPU performance and memory optimizations.


----------



## Alatar

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *maarten12100*
> 
> Great for people that play multiplayer shooters like BF4. Or future RTS games.


Wasn't Mantle supposed to be mostly used with console ports (read: GPU bottlenecked games) because the "code is mostly compatible" and because "mantle makes porting easy"?

If that's the case then the biggest group of games mantle targets isn't going to see much benefit.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *maarten12100*
> 
> Are those Mantle problems? The article didn't list any of those...


pcper article does list those.


----------



## maarten12100

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *TheRoot*
> 
> where true audio


BF4 doesn't support it


----------



## maarten12100

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Forceman*
> 
> There's no indication that it will ever work with NVidia, just that it isn't limited to only AMD. Big difference, could is not will.


Nvidia still dealing with DX will have them severly limited in multiplayer or any cpu limited mantle titles.


----------



## Clocknut

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Alatar*
> 
> Of course they don't but people on OCN do. I'm just mostly interested in the stuff that applies to enthusiasts. People here are running overclocked intel 6-cores, overclocked haswell stuff etc. I'm interested in seeing what happens with a 5ghz SB-E for example.
> 
> Besides, even if we were talking about the majority of gamers with GCN GPUs I don't think mantle is something they should use yet... Unless they're enthusiasts who are just interested in playing with the tech.
> 
> -Only support for APUs, Hawaii chips and 260X
> -Crossfire basically not supported (big bugs and lots of stuttering)
> -limited laptop support
> -no portrait mode support
> -Since there are so many known issues AMD made a web page specifically for those issues
> 
> And that's just what AMD is telling reviewers and enthusiasts.


it is still too early to tell if Mantle is a success or not. This is a new API, expect it wont be a smooth launch on a bug fest title like BF4

besides think like a situation like this...

U are a mainstream user with a slow old Athlon/phenom X4 or first gen intel core i7 quad. u wanted to buy a new GPU to play Bf4/any frostbite 3 games.

A simple AMD GPU upgrade or a Full platform upgrade(new Cpu+mobo upgrade) + nvidia GPU? which one is better? See where this is going? on a slow system the diff can be as huge as 40%. If I could save my self from upgrading my entire system. Why not just buy a AMD GPU? 290X may be ridiculous for mainstream user now, but a similar speed next gen Radeon R9-370/460 is much better deal than spending all the money to upgrade the entire platform.


----------



## GermanyChris

So I guess I'm the only one that thought that this makes Kavari look pretty good.


----------



## KyadCK

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *sugarhell*
> 
> http://battlelog.battlefield.com/bf4/news/view/bf4-mantle-live/last/
> 
> This patch is the first release of our Mantle renderer. We will continue to add improvements, based on your feedback, in upcoming Battlefield 4 updates as well. In particular we plan to focus next on adding multi-GPU frame pacing and a few additional GPU performance and memory optimizations.


Code:



Code:


Test case 2: Standard 64-player multiplayer

CPU: AMD FX-8350, 8 cores @ 4 GHz
GPU: AMD Radeon 7970 3 GB (AMD will add support for the AMD Radeon™ HD 7970 in a later stage of Mantle's release schedule, learn more)
Settings: 1080p ULTRA 1x MSAA
OS: Windows 8 64-bit
Level: Siege of Shanghai
Level was tested with 64 "pseudo players" that we have for our own internal testing that simulates heavy game workload that we have in multiplayer in order to get more deterministic results compared to full real multiplayer. 64 players on the large Battlefield levels is really demanding of the CPU so this test case is primarily CPU-bound.
Result: 18.87 ms/f -> 15.08 ms/f = 25.1% faster

Code:



Code:


Test case 3: High-end single-player with multiple GPUs

CPU: Intel Core i7-3970x Extreme, 12 logical cores @ 3.5 GHz
GPU: 2x AMD Radeon R9 290x 4 GB
Settings: 1080p ULTRA 4x MSAA
OS: Windows 8 64-bit
Level: South China Sea "Broken Flight Deck"
This single-player scene is heavy on both the CPU and GPU with lots of action going on. Test was done on the highest end Intel CPU on Windows 8, which is the fastest option before Mantle thanks to DirectX 11.1. Still this CPU is not fast enough to keep the 2 290x GPUs fed at 1080p on Ultra settings so we get a significant CPU performance bottleneck which results in major performance improvement when enabling Mantle.
Result: 12.76 ms/f -> = 8.23 ms/f = 55% faster

There we go, that's more like it. Now bring on the 14.1 drivers so I can get my fill on testing those things while I wait for 7970/7990 Mantle.


----------



## Cyro999

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Clocknut*
> 
> its 10% for 4960X + 290X, well... thats over 4%? isnt it?
> 
> I already told many times here, dont expect 45% gain. 20% is the most u could get. Mantle is quite fresh and beta now, yet it already given free 10%. So 20% isnt too far from being unrealistic.
> 
> the biggest impact is the min frame rate, I am more interested in this area.


Much of that 10%, in fact it wouldn't surprise me if 4/5'ths of it, is from removing slow frames caused by cpu/api overhead, not by making the GPU faster
Quote:


> Result: 18.87 ms/f -> 15.08 ms/f = 25.1% faster


Their AFTER result is 66fps? That won't expose too much of the cpu/api issues.

1; frametime graphs, now

2; Target 120-150fps. Let the +50% numbers run wild - the 120hz users sure as hell are sick of cpu/api crippling performance.


----------



## KyadCK

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Cyro999*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Clocknut*
> 
> its 10% for 4960X + 290X, well... thats over 4%? isnt it?
> 
> I already told many times here, dont expect 45% gain. 20% is the most u could get. Mantle is quite fresh and beta now, yet it already given free 10%. So 20% isnt too far from being unrealistic.
> 
> the biggest impact is the min frame rate, I am more interested in this area.
> 
> 
> 
> Much of that 10%, in fact it wouldn't surprise me if 4/5'ths of it, is from removing slow frames caused by cpu/api overhead, not by making the GPU faster
Click to expand...

*Shrug* You can make a car faster by changing the gears too, not just by making the engine bigger. Whatever method works, right?


----------



## Clocknut

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Cyro999*
> 
> Much of that 10%, in fact it wouldn't surprise me if 4/5'ths of it, is from removing slow frames caused by cpu/api overhead, not by making the GPU faster
> Their AFTER result is 66fps? That won't expose too much of the cpu/api issues.
> 
> 1; frametime graphs, now
> 
> 2; Target 120-150fps. Let the +50% numbers run wild - the 120hz users sure as hell are sick of cpu/api crippling performance.


those massive explosion, debris, framerate dips etc.

min framerate vs frame dip/spikes is going to be interesting


----------



## Forceman

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Clocknut*
> 
> those massive explosion, debris, framerate dips etc.
> 
> min framerate vs frame dip/spikes is going to be interesting


Yeah, getting rid of those does way more for your perceived experience than slightly raising the top-line number.


----------



## Cyro999

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *KyadCK*
> 
> *Shrug* You can make a car faster by changing the gears too, not just by making the engine bigger. Whatever method works, right?


Yea; just saying that's not 10% of GPU acceleration, so it's not a hairs throw from 20%. If most of it is from cpu/api and only say, 3% from GPU being faster - then that 3% can't magically jump to 20

cpu/ram/api performance should be treated seperately from gpu and gpu acceleration, because they're different parts of the system, you can overcome the gpu/gpuaccel issue by going to quadfire 290's but if you're cpu limited you'll still find that tons of frames take as much as 13-20ms


----------



## Cyro999

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Clocknut*
> 
> those massive explosion, debris, framerate dips etc.
> 
> min framerate vs frame dip/spikes is going to be interesting


Yea, they were hell on the frametimes. I didn't see much min fps dip though, because they were not really long enough for that, but you can see np looking at frametimes that "min fps" is not a good representation of performance in bf4


----------



## Stormscion

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Forceman*
> 
> There's no indication that it will ever work with NVidia, just that it isn't limited to only AMD. Big difference, could is not will.


nvidia just have to make driver for it

if they want that is


----------



## monstercameron

http://battlelog.battlefield.com/bf4/news/view/bf4-mantle-live/

mantle is live from ~10-50%


----------



## <({D34TH})>

Mantle support for non R7-R9 series GPUs will be coming later from what I have read.


----------



## Myyu

Word of caution. Stay as FAR away from BF4 forums as you can. Nothing but people complaining that Tahiti isn't supported yet. I think my IQ went down 50 points just from reading what some people say.


----------



## Mas

Unfortunately still no drivers to go with it


----------



## BradleyW

Should have them at some point today.


----------



## Newbie2009

Oh wow. Those are serious increases.


----------



## doomlord52

14-55% performance increase!?









That's quite impressive if its true. Still, I'll wait for 3rd party benchmarks.


----------



## 98uk

So HD79xx cards aren't supported in the first patch


----------



## fashric

Better link http://battlelog.battlefield.com/bf4/news/view/bf4-mantle-live/


----------



## Cyro999

1; Can Nvidia users get the CPU performance bonus's?

2; If so; when?

If not; guess i'm lining up to buy a worse GPU so that i'm not cpu bound


----------



## LogaDK

The crossfire performance numbers that Fniz92 posted is from this source
http://wccftech.com/dice-officially-launches-mantle-update-battlefield-4-123-gb-size/

If the source is correct then 7950 and 7970 is also getting a mantle speed bump with 14.1 drivers:

AMD FX-8350, 8 cores @ 4 GHz and AMD Radeon 7970 3 GB at 1080p 25%


----------



## doomlord52

Getting conflicting reports: source
Quote:


> CPU: AMD A10-7700K with Radeon R9 290X - 40.9% improvement at 1080p, 40.1% improvement at 1600p.
> 
> CPU: Intel Core i7-4960x with Radeon R7 260x - 2.7% improvement at 1080p, 1.4% improvement at 1600p.


Seems like it really only helps in heavily CPU-bound situations.


----------



## TrevBlu19

Great News.


----------



## mboner1

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Cyro999*
> 
> 1; Can Nvidia users get the CPU performance bonus's?
> 
> 2; If so; when?
> 
> If not; guess i'm lining up to buy a worse GPU so that i'm not cpu bound


I would start lining up now.


----------



## Cyro999

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mboner1*
> 
> I would start lining up now.


Yay for having radeon and geforce in one system because one un-borks the CPU and lets you actually run decent frametimes on some games, while the other allows for ulmb+shadowplay on the ones that work well in the first place


----------



## mboner1

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Myyu*
> 
> Word of caution. Stay as FAR away from BF4 forums as you can. Nothing but people complaining that Tahiti isn't supported yet. I think my IQ went down 50 points just from reading what some people say.


Lol. Bf4 forums are always full of kids screaming.


----------



## Aesthethc

55% in single player

25% in multi player..... what we really care about here is multi player.... i wonder what this means for nvidia....


----------



## Ecchi-BANZAII!!!

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doomlord52*
> 
> Getting conflicting reports: source
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> CPU: AMD A10-7700K with Radeon R9 290X - 40.9% improvement at 1080p, 40.1% improvement at 1600p.
> 
> CPU: *Intel* Core i7-4960x with Radeon R7 *260x* - 2.7% improvement at 1080p, 1.4% improvement at 1600p.
> 
> 
> 
> Seems like it really only helps in heavily CPU-bound situations.
Click to expand...

AMD marketing is doing it too obvious.

But how would it be with the 260X on the same CPU?
Does it mean the 260X is lower priority than the 290X or that it just can't make use of Mantle that well?


----------



## Offler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *98uk*
> 
> So HD79xx cards aren't supported in the first patch


Seems strange to me. R-290 and HD 7970 are basically same cards, so I believe that it will work same...


----------



## fashric

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doomlord52*
> 
> Getting conflicting reports: source
> Seems like it really only helps in heavily CPU-bound situations.


Isn't that the whole point of mantle?


----------



## BradleyW

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Daredevil 720*
> 
> 55% Increase in frames on a 3970X + 2x 290X?
> 
> And people said Mantle was BS!


This shows even the x79 platform can be bottlenecked by certain applications.


----------



## fashric

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Offler*
> 
> Seems strange to me. R-290 and HD 7970 are basically same cards, so I believe that it will work same...


What? I think you are getting the 280x and 290 mixed up.


----------



## Newbie2009

I'm looking forward to seeing some sandy and Ivy bridge i5 & i7 quad core benchmarks with xfire 290Xs.


----------



## Offler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *BradleyW*
> 
> This shows even the x79 platform can be bottlenecked by certain applications.


Surely it can. The reason why Intel added more memory channels, was also to increase performance in situations where CPU core is not utilized, but buses are overloaded by bloated traffic which DX likes to use.

Mantle will remove/decrease such scenarios. Less overhead = less traffic = higher real performance.


----------



## Clocknut

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *BradleyW*
> 
> This shows even the x79 platform can be bottlenecked by certain applications.


So triple crossfire 290x for x79 user? eh







Gonna love to see the gap on this vs 780Ti triple SLI.


----------



## Razor 116

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Offler*
> 
> Seems strange to me. R-290 and HD 7970 are basically same cards, so I believe that it will work same...


Incorrect, you're thinking of the lower 280X.


----------



## Offler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Razor 116*
> 
> Incorrect, you're thinking of the lower 280X.


Oh.. Right..

But still. According to info from DICE and AMD, mantle development start before Hawaii cores were released.


----------



## hojnikb

Release means nothing.. These cores were developed many years before they were rolled out.


----------



## Myyu

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mboner1*
> 
> Lol. Bf4 forums are always full of kids screaming.


Patch days are the worst. My favorite today was the person who said "Why am I downloading a 1.23gig patch for something I can't even use? I HAVE A NIVIDA CARD!"


----------



## tpi2007

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *monstercameron*
> 
> http://battlelog.battlefield.com/bf4/news/view/bf4-mantle-live/
> 
> mantle is live from ~10-50%


Wow, the 2x R9 290X Crossfire with the i7-3970X are amazing!

So, this will help GPU performance when paired with low end CPUs and will allow high-end Crossfire solutions to truly shine. High-end CPUs with a single high-end GPU will still see 8-10% performance improvement. I'd say it's a win-win situation considering it will be free (well, if you have a GCN card) and won't require an OS change.


----------



## Razor 116

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mboner1*
> 
> I would start lining up now.


Nah, I'll wait for it to be adopted by more developers and more games released, Unfortunately the mess that BF4 is will be the poster child for Mantle. I suspect many people who don't know what they're talking about will begin to blame mantle for problems that existed in BF4 before Mantle. The only thing AMD lacks for me now is Shadowplay.


----------



## Offler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Razor 116*
> 
> Nah, I'll wait for it to be adopted by more developers and more games released, Unfortunately the mess that BF4 is will be the poster child for Mantle. I suspect many people who don't know what they're talking about will begin to blame mantle for problems that existed in BF4 before Mantle.


Thats the reason why I am more interested in StarSwarm demo than in BF4.


----------



## Razor 116

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Offler*
> 
> Thats the reason why I am more interested in StarSwarm demo than in BF4.


Thief for me, although in single player games FPS is much less of a concern for me. Multiplayer is where I expect maximum FPS.


----------



## AlDyer

Gimme dem drivers


----------



## Ghost12

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Myyu*
> 
> Patch days are the worst. My favorite today was the person who said "Why am I downloading a 1.23gig patch for something I can't even use? I HAVE A NIVIDA CARD!"


Lol just been reading the same things, the level of stupid in that forum is well just..................stupid.


----------



## Aesthethc

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Razor 116*
> 
> Thief for me, although in single player games FPS is much less of a concern for me. Multiplayer is where I expect maximum FPS.


If you look in the article it says 25% gain - 14 fps with an fx8350 + 7970 on Ultra @ 1x MSAA ( i believe that means 2x MSAA, there is no 1x?) 53 fps to 67 fps avg apparently for multiplayer 64 players.

who knows if its more gains for a 290x or 290. Im excited to see what NVidia has to reply to this, cause usually thats what NVidia does....


----------



## davcc22

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mboner1*
> 
> Lol. Bf4 forums are always full of kids screaming.


hahaha im just biting my time wating till it comes to the 7870/r9-270x witch wont be long they are just getting it going


----------



## SKYMTL

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *tpi2007*
> 
> Wow, the 2x R9 290X Crossfire with the i7-3970X are amazing!
> 
> So, this will help GPU performance when paired with low end CPUs and will allow high-end Crossfire solutions to truly shine. High-end CPUs with a single high-end GPU will still see 8-10% performance improvement. I'd say it's a win-win situation considering it will be free (well, if you have a GCN card) and won't require an OS change.


No. High end GPU + high end overclocked CPU will be more like 0-5% initially.


----------



## Boomstick727

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Cyro999*
> 
> 1; Can Nvidia users get the CPU performance bonus's?
> 
> 2; If so; when?
> 
> If not; guess i'm lining up to buy a worse GPU so that i'm not cpu bound


Is your CPU Un-parked? If not un-park it wil likely fix any problems with performance / stutter you have in games. Most that have un-parked their Intel cores, no longer need to OC to play games. It really does work amazing.

http://www.coderbag.com/Programming-C/Disable-CPU-Core-Parking-Utility


----------



## t00sl0w

hah, this is cool.
i straight up didnt think it was going to come through with gains like this.
now i want to see it implemented by some independants.


----------



## SlackerITGuy

What a shame that we don't get to try this out yet (HD 7000 users), I'm actually kind of disappointed, and I don't get disappointed easily.

Any word on a time table?


----------



## Assirra

People really need to take this +% stuff with a grain of salt.


----------



## Razor 116

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Aesthethc*
> 
> If you look in the article it says 25% gain - 14 fps with an fx8350 + 7970 on Ultra @ 1x MSAA ( i believe that means 2x MSAA, there is no 1x?) 53 fps to 67 fps avg apparently for multiplayer 64 players.
> 
> who knows if its more gains for a 290x or 290. Im excited to see what NVidia has to reply to this, cause usually thats what NVidia does....


It's unlikely they have any reply for this, I also doubt developers want Nvidia to reply with yet another API. I doubt one game that has actually been released with Mantle is enough to shake Nvidia. It will be interesting to see if all the performance improvements continue with higher resolutions such as 1440P as Guru3D said who pays 1000 for a CPU are over 800 for two R9 290X in crossfire and games at 1080p.


----------



## WorldExclusive

Sadly, it's for a game that I will never buy and others will just to see this in action.


----------



## velocityx

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SKYMTL*
> 
> No. High end GPU + high end overclocked CPU will be more like 0-5% initially.


hes quoting and talking about dice tech director showing those numbers on screenshots and you're saying that he is wrong? that intel system with crossfire 290 showed 58 percent increase in fps in bf4.


----------



## EliteReplay

BRAVO AMD... i might be getting an R9 290 soon!!! this a awesome increase in performance. just wow.


----------



## Kinaesthetic

Thing is, Mantle is to reduce CPU overhead in CPU bound situations. So as enthusiasts, who OC their CPUs, we'll notice much less performance gain than your average user running bone stock in the configurations that they are running in the article. So a situation that might be in the article where they are running a bone dead stock 3970X with two 290Xs, would be MUCH less of a performance improvement than their 55% (although it could scale given both components, CPU and GPU are OC'd at the same time).

I think the greatest effect Mantle will have is on a core/AMD-CPU limited high-end Crossfire setup that isn't OC'd.

Still, impressive nonetheless. Any advancement in tech is always a solid thing to see.


----------



## cam51037

I'll be testing it out today with my 290 hopefully. Can't wait to see what Mantle has to offer.


----------



## Clocknut

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Kinaesthetic*
> 
> Thing is, Mantle is to reduce CPU overhead in CPU bound situations. So as enthusiasts, who OC their CPUs, we'll notice much less performance gain than your average user running bone stock in the configurations that they are running in the article. So a situation that might be in the article where they are running a bone dead stock 3970X with two 290Xs, would be MUCH less of a performance improvement than their 55% (although it could scale given both components, CPU and GPU are OC'd at the same time).
> 
> I think the greatest effect Mantle will have is on a core/AMD-CPU limited high-end Crossfire setup that isn't OC'd.
> 
> Still, impressive nonetheless. Any advancement in tech is always a solid thing to see.


which means u dont have to change ur OCed 3970X, u can put in a pair of next gen Radeon R9-490X/590X without bottleneck issue


----------



## Kinaesthetic

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *velocityx*
> 
> hes quoting and talking about dice tech director showing those numbers on screenshots and you're saying that he is wrong? that intel system with crossfire 290 showed 58 percent increase in fps in bf4.


That Intel system is also running a bone-dead stock 3970X. Which most people worth their salt buying that level of an enthusiast CPU are going to have that thing overclocked (many to an inch of its life).

Which in turn reduces the CPU overhead to begin with. Which is what Mantle aims to rectify.

So in turn, the performance gains from Mantle won't be nearly as large. Especially for single high-end GPU users, which quite frankly, is a majority of a small minority of the market. Most people are running mid-ranged cards, which won't see anywhere near the scale of improvement that the 290Xx2+3970X showed.


----------



## revro

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Aesthethc*
> 
> 55% in single player
> 
> 25% in multi player..... what we really care about here is multi player.... i wonder what this means for nvidia....


dont know, i mean there is not much they can do about it.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Razor 116*
> 
> It's unlikely they have any reply for this, I also doubt developers want Nvidia to reply with yet another API. I doubt one game that has actually been released with Mantle is enough to shake Nvidia. It will be interesting to see if all the performance improvements continue with higher resolutions such as 1440P as Guru3D said who pays 1000 for a CPU are over 800 for two R9 290X in crossfire and games at 1080p.


well to be honest the guy with 1k cpu could have just bought a 500buck cpu and it would be the same

but in regard to those beasts check this out. turn off hyperthreading on your 6core and bf3 becomes much much faster








http://chipreviews.com/main-feature/main-news/frostbite-2s-limit-6-core-performance-in-battlefield-3/3/

basically if you run your 4/6 core cpu at stock frequency with HT turned off, you get better avg fps as when you have HT on

best
revro


----------



## CBZ323

I hope this patch doesnt mess up the game for the people who are not using Mantle


----------



## Rubers

https://blogs.battlefield.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/testcase3_dx.png
https://blogs.battlefield.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/testcase3_mantle.png

Why is one 120hz and the other is 60hz?


----------



## kersoz2003

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SlackerITGuy*
> 
> What a shame that we don't get to try this out yet (HD 7000 users), I'm actually kind of disappointed, and I don't get disappointed easily.
> 
> Any word on a time table?


AMD communicated that:

"Mantle performance for the AMD Radeon. HD 7000/HD 8000 Series GPUs and AMD Radeon. R9 280X and R9 270X GPUs will be optimized for BattleField 4 in future AMD Catalyst releases. These products will see limited gains in BattleField 4 and AMD is currently investigating optimizations for them as they are the next highest priority products."


----------



## SKYMTL

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *velocityx*
> 
> hes quoting and talking about dice tech director showing those numbers on screenshots and you're saying that he is wrong? that intel system with crossfire 290 showed 58 percent increase in fps in bf4.


Did you read my post? Where did I say Crossfire?

I'll break it down:

Mantle removes *CPU LIMITATIONS* by reducing software overhead. Hence, if you are using a system that is GPU bound or running at high detail settings where the GPU becomes the deciding factor, the benefits are slim to none.

AMD states this in their own documentation.

Yes, there will be massive benefits when you are running very high framerates on a Crossfire system but to me, that means very little. When I pay $1000+ on two graphics cards, I want to max out details and make sure my GPUs are pulling the weight I want them to.


----------



## tpi2007

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SKYMTL*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *tpi2007*
> 
> Wow, the 2x R9 290X Crossfire with the i7-3970X are amazing!
> 
> So, this will help GPU performance when paired with low end CPUs and will allow high-end Crossfire solutions to truly shine. High-end CPUs with a single high-end GPU will still see 8-10% performance improvement. I'd say it's a win-win situation considering it will be free (well, if you have a GCN card) and won't require an OS change.
> 
> 
> 
> No. High end GPU + high end overclocked CPU will be more like 0-5% initially.
Click to expand...

Yes, I was going off of stock results, the more you overclock the CPU, the less of a bottleneck you'll have.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Kinaesthetic*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *velocityx*
> 
> hes quoting and talking about dice tech director showing those numbers on screenshots and you're saying that he is wrong? that intel system with crossfire 290 showed 58 percent increase in fps in bf4.
> 
> 
> 
> That Intel system is also running a bone-dead stock 3970X. Which most people worth their salt buying that level of an enthusiast CPU are going to have that thing overclocked (many to an inch of its life).
> 
> Which in turn reduces the CPU overhead to begin with. Which is what Mantle aims to rectify.
> 
> So in turn, the performance gains from Mantle won't be nearly as large. Especially for single high-end GPU users, which quite frankly, is a majority of a small minority of the market. Most people are running mid-ranged cards, which won't see anywhere near the scale of improvement that the 290Xx2+3970X showed.
Click to expand...

Look at this the other way, this frees up CPU performance for more advanced A.I., for example.


----------



## Fniz92

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SKYMTL*
> 
> Did you read my post? Where did I say Crossfire?
> 
> I'll break it down:
> 
> Mantle removes *CPU LIMITATIONS* by reducing software overhead. Hence, if you are using a system that is GPU bound or running at high detail settings where the GPU becomes the deciding factor, the benefits are slim to none.
> 
> AMD states this in their own documentation.
> 
> Yes, there will be massive benefits when you are running very high framerates on a Crossfire system but to me, that means very little. When I pay $1000+ on two graphics cards, I want to max out details and make sure my GPUs are pulling the weight I want them to.


Not sure what you're on about, but the 8350 / 7970 shows 25 % improvement on mantle.
Are you telling me the 8350 & 7970 aren't high end?


----------



## Shogon

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Clocknut*
> 
> which means u dont have to change ur OCed 3970X, u can put in a pair of next gen Radeon R9-490X/590X without bottleneck issue


But meh overclocks!!

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *WorldExclusive*
> 
> Sadly, it's for a game that I will never buy and others will just to see this in action.


Same here, hence why I try to get in on any freebies for the game.

If Mantle works it's way into the Total War series (I hope, the games has been CPU bound forever) I can see myself getting a 290 or whatever else they have came out with in a few years.


----------



## TopicClocker

Not sure if this has been posted on OCN

Looks promising, effectively unbottlenecks the GPU if the the CPU is to slow from what I can see and appears to squeeze some performance out of CF and single gpu configs in mantle enabled titles..
Quote:


> Test case 1: Low-end single-player
> CPU/GPU: AMD A10-7850K ('Kaveri' APU), 4 cores @ 3.7 GHz
> Settings: 720p MEDIUM settings.
> OS: Windows 7 64-bit
> Level: Singapore "Beach"
> This area is heavy on the CPU as it is quite a lot of action going on, but the game is primarily GPU-bound both on DX and with Mantle but thanks to GPU optimizations with Mantle we get a good performance improvement.
> Result: 26.6 ms/f -> 23.3 ms/f = 14% faster


Quote:


> Test case 2: Standard 64-player multiplayer
> CPU: AMD FX-8350, 8 cores @ 4 GHz
> GPU: AMD Radeon 7970 3 GB (AMD will add support for the AMD Radeon™ HD 7970 in a later stage of Mantle's release schedule, learn more)
> Settings: 1080p ULTRA 1x MSAA
> OS: Windows 8 64-bit
> Level: Siege of Shanghai
> Level was tested with 64 "pseudo players" that we have for our own internal testing that simulates heavy game workload that we have in multiplayer in order to get more deterministic results compared to full real multiplayer. 64 players on the large Battlefield levels is really demanding of the CPU so this test case is primarily CPU-bound.
> Result: 18.87 ms/f -> 15.08 ms/f = 25.1% faster


Quote:


> Test case 3: High-end single-player with multiple GPUs
> CPU: Intel Core i7-3970x Extreme, 12 logical cores @ 3.5 GHz
> GPU: 2x AMD Radeon R9 290x 4 GB
> Settings: 1080p ULTRA 4x MSAA
> OS: Windows 8 64-bit
> Level: South China Sea "Broken Flight Deck"
> This single-player scene is heavy on both the CPU and GPU with lots of action going on. Test was done on the highest end Intel CPU on Windows 8, which is the fastest option before Mantle thanks to DirectX 11.1. Still this CPU is not fast enough to keep the 2 290x GPUs fed at 1080p on Ultra settings so we get a significant CPU performance bottleneck which results in major performance improvement when enabling Mantle.
> Result: 13.24 ms/f -> = 8.38 ms/f = 58% faster


This is the first iteration and more performance may come out of improved versions of Mantle, It's an improvement but not earth shattering for single GPUs, CF looks very impressive however.

edit: KyadCK beat me to it ha


----------



## salamachaa

Hey guys, I want to make sure I am not missing anything. Aren't we still waiting on the 14.1 beta driver for mantle support?


----------



## Cyro999

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Boomstick727*
> 
> Is your CPU Un-parked? If not un-park it wil likely fix any problems with performance / stutter you have in games. Most that have un-parked their Intel cores, no longer need to OC to play games. It really does work amazing.
> 
> http://www.coderbag.com/Programming-C/Disable-CPU-Core-Parking-Utility


I have; most people are just far less sensitive to frametime variance and slow frames than me. Running 120hz strobed on [email protected], i saw ~3-5% of frames slower than 16.7ms (60fps mark), on a gtx770 at max OC, with some settings on low and resolution on 720p - just CPU bound. That's unacceptable compared to the other FPS i played - Quake live, NS2, CSGO etc which have no troubles having 97'th percentile FPS more than twice as high - while in comparison, i could never get it up with bf4 simply because of api/cpu bottlenecking, no matter how many 780ti's or 290x's thrown at the problem.


----------



## Newbie2009

This would be useful for big multi player online games and skyrim. Single player games not so much I'd say.


----------



## Cyro999

Quote:


> It's an improvement but not earth shattering for single GPUs, CF looks very impressive however.


I don't think it's really down to CF, moreso that when you're targeting 100+fps, api/cpu limitations become much more apparent. If you were to run some settings med, only fxaa etc on a 290 on 1080p for example, it'd show the same limits hit; Everyone's been stonewalled with cpu limits trying to hit consistently high fps with smooth frametimes, those 58% faster numbers are just letting the gpu's do what they are supposed to be able to do but can't do because of the engine, api and cpu/platform


----------



## maarten12100

Seems like amd is being modest compared to dice.


----------



## SKYMTL

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Fniz92*
> 
> Not sure what you're on about, but the 8350 / 7970 shows 25 % improvement on mantle.
> Are you telling me the 8350 & 7970 aren't high end?


That's precisely what I'm saying. Check out the resolution and ingame settings. The FX-8350 performs quite poorly in certain Frostbite Engine games, particularly when the GPU isn't stressed.


----------



## yawa

I can attest this much about mantle as I'm already running the 13.35 patch. With my 290X at 1175/1306 and kaveri at 4.5 GHz, I was at 99% GPU usage after the patch I was getting between 120fps-89fps in a quick single mission ( multi wasn't available yet), as of 4:45 am.


----------



## coupe

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ultracarpet*
> 
> So lets say bf4 will run the same with my 8350 clocked at 2 ghz as it will at 4 ghz because of mantle.... what could all that extra cpu horsepower get used for in games?


THIS.

We often become short sighted and only look at right now. Think about all the extra power on the CPU that is freed for developers to use. If Mantle becomes widely adopted, or is supported by a variety of engines, think about what the future could hold. This is giving a benefit now and creativity later.

A lot of us complain about lag in huge battles. From what I understand, CPUs are typically the bottlenecks in large fights. This means massive amounts of people on screen aren't a barrier any longer! Think about what this could mean for MMORPGs and WvW combat! HUGE EPIC BATTLES!


----------



## salamachaa

Alatar move my post from another thread before I got a response. Don't we need to wait for the 14.1 beta drivers before mantle will work (even with the BF4 patch)?


----------



## Fniz92

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *maarten12100*
> 
> Seems like amd is being modest compared to dice.


Wasn't the AMD test singleplayer? Which explains the higher performance numbers dice put out since their test is multiplayer which is CPU bound.


----------



## BigMack70

10% improvement from Mantle if you have a good CPU? Wow. That's pathetic given all the hype that led up to this.

Lots of hype over nothing (unless you happen to be an APU owner, I guess...)

I expected a LOT more from this.


----------



## reqq

Ye this is sick! Need more games to follow support. MMO games, ARMA engine and so on.


----------



## maarten12100

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SKYMTL*
> No. High end GPU + high end overclocked CPU will be more like 0-5% initially.


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SKYMTL*
> 
> That's precisely what I'm saying. Check out the resolution and ingame settings. The FX-8350 performs quite poorly in certain Frostbite Engine games, particularly when the GPU isn't stressed.


You seem to be a bit biased especially for a reviewer clearly the gains are usually in excess of 5% and whether that is due to cpu or due to gpu isn't really relevant now is it? While Dice's cpu is stock I sincerely doubt such a cpu would be more than a 55% bottleneck and I myself think R9 290x's feature the best chips on the market. (high res gaming)
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Fniz92*
> 
> Wasn't the AMD test singleplayer? Which explains the higher performance numbers dice put out since their test is multiplayer which is CPU bound.


Dice's test with the big guns was single player
Quote:


> 3: Multi-GPU single-player
> Intel Core i7-3970x Extreme, 12 logical cores @ 3.5 GHz
> 2x AMD Radeon R9 290x 4 GB
> Ultra 1080p 4x MSAA
> Windows 8 64-bit
> South China Sea
> 13.24 ms/f (78.4 fps)
> 8.38 ms/f (121.5 fps)
> 58% faster


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *BigMack70*
> 
> 10% improvement from Mantle if you have a good CPU? Wow. That's pathetic given all the hype that led up to this.
> 
> Lots of hype over nothing (unless you happen to be an APU owner, I guess...)
> 
> I expected a LOT more from this.


Check how stable the line is your min frame rate will be way more stable and the experience will be "miles" ahead.
However there are kinks in the road such as these sparks on cpu's with low FP perf (that is the only reason I could see for those sparks)



Also on the 8350 something went wrong since the cpu is the bottleneck while Mantle should eliminate that


----------



## Nevk

....great

http://battlelog.battlefield.com/bf4/ja/news/view/2955063418790832415/


----------



## Fniz92

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SKYMTL*
> 
> That's precisely what I'm saying. Check out the resolution and ingame settings. The FX-8350 performs quite poorly in certain Frostbite Engine games, particularly when the GPU isn't stressed.


8350 performing poorly in BF4?
What are you even talking about?

It's running 1080p & ultra..


----------



## Fniz92

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *maarten12100*
> 
> Dice's test with the big guns was single player


I meant the 8350 & 7970









- Double post, I apologize.


----------



## BigMack70

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *maarten12100*
> 
> Check how stable the line is your min frame rate will be way more stable and the experience will be "miles" ahead.


What are you looking at? I may have missed something, but I'm not seeing anything to substantiate that...

All I'm seeing is that if you have a lousy or stock clocked CPU, Mantle will be awesomesauce. But if you have an overclocked Sandy/Ivy/Haswell/etc, Mantle will give you such small performance gains that you will only notice them if/when benchmarking.

I've seen a lot of AMD fanboys acting like Mantle is relevant to debates like 290X vs 780 Ti, but this data tells me that Mantle really is only relevant to something like APU vs core i3.


----------



## maarten12100

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *BigMack70*
> 
> What are you looking at? I may have missed something, but I'm not seeing anything to substantiate that...
> 
> All I'm seeing is that if you have a lousy or stock clocked CPU, Mantle will be awesomesauce. But if you have an overclocked Sandy/Ivy/Haswell/etc, Mantle will give you such small performance gains that you will only notice them if/when benchmarking.
> 
> I've seen a lot of AMD fanboys acting like Mantle is relevant to debates like 290X vs 780 Ti, but this data tells me that Mantle really is only relevant to something like APU vs core i3.




That one is with mantle of the 3970x + CF R9 290x setup pretty dam smooth if you ask me


----------



## Offler

I checked few of already published numbers.

So if everything on BF blog is true, some of the webs already misinterpreted the numbers. (I am talking about article on MaximumPC). They simply took the numbers out of context and put them into their web, with complete nonsense written around.

http://www.maximumpc.com/amds_catalyst_141_drivers_are_incoming_mantle_update_and_more

I dont know why are they trying to convince people that "Strong intel CPU" does not need mantle, while its certain that its paired with R-260. In that case its GPU which is clearly limiting the performance.

According to info on BF4 blog they mentioned that in "CPU limited situations" Mantle will improve performance significantly. It does not matter what CPU you have (including strongest intel), it depends more on the engine... So if you pick I7-4960x and R9-290x (single pair or trifire) you will get higher percentual improvement with Mantle as with single R7-260.

Simply - Mantle will reduce impact of CPU bound situations, regardless of CPU, but its worth to have GPU with decent perfomance. In this situation Mantle can make its benefit over DX more significant.

Anyways pairing I7-4960x with R7-260 is plain stupid...

edit: To Maarten:
Agree.


----------



## BigMack70

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *maarten12100*
> 
> 
> 
> That one is with mantle of the 3970x + CF R9 290x setup pretty dam smooth if you ask me


Thanks for that. I'll be curious to see if that translates to multiplayer or not. Still kind of doubt that it will be all that noticeable, though.


----------



## Clocknut

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *maarten12100*
> 
> 
> 
> That one is with mantle of the 3970x + CF R9 290x setup pretty dam smooth if you ask me


and it is on a single play which CPU are usage less, on multiplayer the gap will be larger.

What about triple 290x? wouldnt that gap be bigger? lol


----------



## FastMHz

I think one of the biggest points of Mantle is to make affordable APUs viable for serious gaming. And it looks like they pulled it off - and this will just be the beta.


----------



## Imouto

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FastMHz*
> 
> I think one of the biggest points of Mantle is to make affordable APUs viable for serious gaming. And it looks like they pulled it off - and this will just be the beta.


Don't forget that the amount of life breathed into older Q2Q, X6, first gen i7 and current AMD CPUs is massive. Someone that ran out of GPU upgrades because of his CPU/Mobo can upgrade again.


----------



## Kuivamaa

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Imouto*
> 
> Don't forget that the amount of life breathed into older Q2Q, X6, first gen i7 and current AMD CPUs is massive. Someone that ran out of GPU upgrades because of his CPU/Mobo can upgrade again.


Pretty much this. However, I do wonder If there is a minimum of threads an older/weaker processor has to have in order for mantle to be effective.


----------



## Artev

just to verify... 7950/7970 is supported by mantle in the released drivers/BF4 update, but they are not optimized so improvements are minimal. is that correct?


----------



## EastCoast

Do to the nature of FPS online there can be some cpu bottlenecks. How much there is unknown as it's not something i've seen address. If it holds true that mantle relieves this cpu bottleneck then not only should we see healthy gains while playing online but hit rego, etc should also show some differences as the CPu isn't heavily constrained sending data to the video card. IE: better receive data from the nic, etc. THat's just my theory.


----------



## DesertBeagle

lools like 79** will be supported in this driver after all..


----------



## Kuivamaa

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *EastCoast*
> 
> Do to the nature of FPS online there can be some cpu bottlenecks. How much there is unknown as it's not something i've seen address. If it holds true that mantle relieves this cpu bottleneck then not only should we see healthy gains while playing online but hit rego, etc should also show some differences as the CPu isn't heavily constrained sending data to the video card. IE: better receive data from the nic, etc. THat's just my theory.


...or 128p servers etc. MMOs would probably get huge boost in high player count situations , too bad a major title to receive mantle support is nowhere to be seen.


----------



## thelude

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *BigMack70*
> 
> 10% improvement from Mantle if you have a good CPU? Wow. That's pathetic given all the hype that led up to this.
> 
> Lots of hype over nothing (unless you happen to be an APU owner, I guess...)
> 
> I expected a LOT more from this.


10% improvement from same GPU = FREE
10% improvement from 780ti from 780 = $150


----------



## ejb222

no one has first hand experience to share yet???


----------



## bencher

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Alatar*
> 
> Wasn't Mantle supposed to be mostly used with console ports (read: GPU bottlenecked games) because the "code is mostly compatible" and because "mantle makes porting easy"?
> 
> If that's the case then the biggest group of games mantle targets isn't going to see much benefit.
> pcper article does list those.


How will it not assist consoles?

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Alatar*
> 
> As expected pretty much the only benefits to fps come from removing some CPU overhead.
> 
> These are also with stock CPUs, the numbers will just go down even more once you've overclocked your stuff...
> 
> But, waiting for 3rd party numbers. Maybe we'll see tests with OC'd stuff then.


I knew I would find some twisting of words to make Mantle seem negative in here.

Mantle is looking like a winner!.


----------



## FastMHz

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Kuivamaa*
> 
> Pretty much this. However, I do wonder If there is a minimum of threads an older/weaker processor has to have in order for mantle to be effective.


I'd imagine a quad is enough, they're still the most common and AMD knows it. I doubt many gamers are running dual cores any more so those might not cut it.


----------



## jamaican voodoo

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Assirra*
> 
> People really need to take this +% stuff with a grain of salt.


no only you apparently


----------



## Nowyn

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Kuivamaa*
> 
> ...or 128p servers etc. MMOs would probably get huge boost in high player count situations , too bad a major title to receive mantle support is nowhere to be seen.


No they won't. All these claims about games allowing more players, having better AI etc is a moot point, unless 100% of targeted audience hardware have mantle support and at this point it is a long shot or even dead end depending on how AMD want to handle Mantle.

Developers will always target lowest common denominator and game core mechanics must work well on lowest targeted machine, where optional API support is not guaranteed.


----------



## MoBeeJ

So AMD is stuck with GCN architecture? Not that its not performing well, really well with respect to overpriced products from nvidia (inflated prices duo to miners aside). But sticking to same architecture is what AMD did with the phenoms, and look where that led us.

Am thinking aloud, just my opinion.

Really nice from AMD though, cant wait for THIEF game since inst built in with mantle, not patched. But if the FIRST, PATCHED game performs like this, imagine games that are built with mantle API.


----------



## Imouto

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nowyn*
> 
> No they won't. All these claims about games allowing more players, having better AI etc is a moot point, unless 100% of targeted audience hardware have mantle support and at this point it is a long shot or even dead end depending on how AMD want to handle Mantle.


I think he's referring to MMORPGs like TERA Online, Lineage II, WoW, Aion and such being an slideshow with tons of players on screen.


----------



## bencher

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *maarten12100*
> 
> You seem to be a bit biased especially for a reviewer clearly the gains are usually in excess of 5% and whether that is due to cpu or due to gpu isn't really relevant now is it? While Dice's cpu is stock I sincerely doubt such a cpu would be more than a 55% bottleneck and I myself think R9 290x's feature the best chips on the market. (high res gaming)
> Dice's test with the big guns was single player


Exactly why I don't take his post seriously.


----------



## Gunderman456

It seems all I do is wait for the promise of better AMD drivers which take forever and ever to come to fruition (if ever).

No DX9/Crossfire frame pacing yet and now again I can't even take advantage of Mantel even though I have r9s, because they are crossfired.

What happened to releasing a finished product? What happened to keeping your promises? What happened to timely support?


----------



## bencher

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Gunderman456*
> 
> It seems all I do is wait for the promise of better AMD drivers which take forever and ever to come to fruition (if ever).
> 
> No DX9/Crossfire frame pacing yet and now again I can't even take advantage of Mantel even though I have r9s, because they are crossfired.
> 
> What happened to releasing a finished product? What happened to keeping your promises? What happened to timely support?


Uhhm what?










As to crossfire, I saw a review that reported 55% increase with 2x R9 290.


----------



## jamaican voodoo

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Gunderman456*
> 
> It seems all I do is wait for the promise of better AMD drivers which take forever and ever to come to fruition (if ever).
> 
> No DX9/Crossfire frame pacing yet and now again I can't even take advantage of Mantel even though I have r9s, because they are crossfired.
> 
> What happened to releasing a finished product? What happened to keeping your promises? What happened to timely support?


seriously!! go nvidia if cant take the so called empty promises amd as apparently made to you...while everyone else is happy about free performance you crying about some promises







the green team willing and ready for you


----------



## Imouto

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bencher*
> 
> Exactly why I don't take his post seriously.


Well, every time I see him posting outside of HWC I think there's something fishy in his posts.


----------



## sergeym

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MoBeeJ*
> 
> So AMD is stuck with GCN architecture? Not that its not performing well, really well with respect to overpriced products from nvidia (inflated prices duo to miners aside). But sticking to same architecture is what AMD did with the phenoms, and look where that led us.
> 
> Am thinking aloud, just my opinion.
> 
> Really nice from AMD though, cant wait for THIEF game since inst built in with mantle, not patched. But if the FIRST, PATCHED game performs like this, imagine games that are built with mantle API.


I imagine they will update mantle once they redesign architecture. But I think it CGN will be around for a while - for example previous VLIW architecture have been in use since HD2000 series.


----------



## XT-107

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nevk*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ....great
> 
> http://battlelog.battlefield.com/bf4/ja/news/view/2955063418790832415/


can someone with 290x ( with or without cf) post their fps for that 3rd bench ( i mean that sp mode ?)

becuse for some reason im getting this-

2014-01-30 16:12:14 - bf4
Frames: 3625 - Time: 52625ms - Avg: 62.884 - Min: 39 - Max: 93

with my single 670 @ 1258mhz .









78 vs 62 that doesnt seem right


----------



## Yvese

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Gunderman456*
> 
> It seems all I do is wait for the promise of better AMD drivers which take forever and ever to come to fruition (if ever).
> 
> No DX9/Crossfire frame pacing yet and now again I can't even take advantage of Mantel even though I have r9s, because they are crossfired.
> 
> What happened to releasing a finished product? What happened to keeping your promises? What happened to timely support?


Did you read the news post on Battlelog?

http://battlelog.battlefield.com/bf4/news/view/bf4-mantle-live/

It shows a 58% increase with a 3960x + 2 290x.

It's not multiplayer but it does show you that there are improvements even if it doesn't support an extra GPU yet. The API will still take care of CPU overheard.


----------



## Tobiman

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *XT-107*
> 
> can someone with 290x ( with or without cf) post their fps for that 3rd bench ( i mean that sp mode ?)
> 
> becuse for some reason im getting this-
> 
> 2014-01-30 16:12:14 - bf4
> Frames: 3625 - Time: 52625ms - Avg: 62.884 - Min: 39 - Max: 93
> 
> with my single 670 @ 1258mhz .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 78 vs 62 that doesnt seem right


For real, though?


----------



## XT-107

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Tobiman*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *XT-107*
> 
> can someone with 290x ( with or without cf) post their fps for that 3rd bench ( i mean that sp mode ?)
> 
> becuse for some reason im getting this-
> 
> 2014-01-30 16:12:14 - bf4
> Frames: 3625 - Time: 52625ms - Avg: 62.884 - Min: 39 - Max: 93
> 
> with my single 670 @ 1258mhz .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 78 vs 62 that doesnt seem right
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> For real, though?
Click to expand...

yup , that was only on deck tho . in that whole mission , i get around 55-57 avg . so 78 fps on 290x cf is kinda low , no ?


----------



## Sadmoto

...So is this out? on battlelog it says its already patched and ready to go, but I cannot find the drivers on the amd website








am I blind or jumping the gun?


----------



## Imouto

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *XT-107*
> 
> yup , that was only on deck tho . in that whole mission , i get around 55-57 avg . so 78 fps on 290x cf is kinda low , no ?


I'm betting that you forgot the 4x MSAA on your card.


----------



## tsm106

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Clocknut*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *BradleyW*
> 
> This shows even the x79 platform can be bottlenecked by certain applications.
> 
> 
> 
> So triple crossfire 290x for x79 user? eh
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Gonna love to see the gap on this vs 780Ti triple SLI.
Click to expand...

There's already a gap pre-mantle dude and it's sizable. Now it will only get comical.

On the bf4 mantle link, it's crazy that the big intel hexacore is only running stock cpu. Woot now I won't have to clock my cpu as high anymore lol.


----------



## Dimaggio1103

Nice, AMD catching its CPU's up to Intel finally. Now lets see a wide implementation as well as HSA for my dear APU!


----------



## keikei

Any word on the AMD Catalyst 14.1 Beta drivers?


----------



## XT-107

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Imouto*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *XT-107*
> 
> yup , that was only on deck tho . in that whole mission , i get around 55-57 avg . so 78 fps on 290x cf is kinda low , no ?
> 
> 
> 
> I'm betting that you forgot the 4x MSAA on your card.
Click to expand...

nope , although i do have disabled motion blur










Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!



RenderDevice.TripleBufferingEnable 0
RenderDevice.ForceRenderAheadLimit -1
WorldRender.MotionBlurEnable 0
WorldRender.MotionBlurFixedShutterTime 0
WorldRender.MotionBlurForceOn 0
WorldRender.MotionBlurMax 0
WorldRender.MotionBlurMaxSampleCount 0
WorldRender.MotionBlurQuality 0


----------



## Timeofdoom

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *XT-107*
> 
> yup , that was only on deck tho . in that whole mission , i get around 55-57 avg . so 78 fps on 290x cf is kinda low , no ?


Well, something is deffo bottlenecking your perf. How about the PSU? Those 290X's suck a lot of power.. But can't really tell.


----------



## jason387

Wish I had an AMD gpu


----------



## Vagrant Storm

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *MoBeeJ*
> 
> So AMD is stuck with GCN architecture? Not that its not performing well, really well with respect to overpriced products from nvidia (inflated prices duo to miners aside). But sticking to same architecture is what AMD did with the phenoms, and look where that led us.
> 
> Am thinking aloud, just my opinion.
> 
> Really nice from AMD though, cant wait for THIEF game since inst built in with mantle, not patched. But if the FIRST, PATCHED game performs like this, imagine games that are built with mantle API.


They aren't stuck with GCN, but when they come out with a new architecture they will need to make a new version of Mantle...which probably won't be that that difficult since they have a starting point already. Hard to say..._because the dinks at AMD won't release any technical information on Mantle_. Seriously, they talk about how it is open to all platforms and such a wonderful thing, but then don't give any information. I am not even talking about code or anything, just text giving details.


----------



## Tobiman

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *keikei*
> 
> Any word on the AMD Catalyst 14.1 Beta drivers?


Still waiting on download link to drop. Personally, I don't think it will be released until the driver is fine tuned for older GCN cards.


----------



## AgentHydra

Meh. I'm glad they are making demanding games more accessible for people with limited hardware, but they kind of just boned all the people with capable systems who were looking for a bit more performance. Maybe I'm ignorant but I don't remember them saying the performance benefits would only be for people with CPU bottlenecks.

I'm still glad it's happening though, good for less capable systems and hopefully it will be useful in the game porting process.


----------



## Artev

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Tobiman*
> 
> Still waiting on download link to drop. Personally, I don't think it will be released until the driver is fine tuned for older GCN cards.


if this is true, it makes no sense. AMD already said they are releasing it w/ unoptimized support for older GCN... just drop the drivers already so we can try it out for ourselves!


----------



## bvsbutthd101

who buys an apu and pairs it with a r9 290


----------



## Gunderman456

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Yvese*
> 
> Did you read the news post on Battlelog?
> 
> http://battlelog.battlefield.com/bf4/news/view/bf4-mantle-live/
> 
> It shows a 58% increase with a 3960x + 2 290x.
> 
> It's not multiplayer but it does show you that there are improvements even if it doesn't support an extra GPU yet. The API will still take care of CPU overheard.


No, I'm at work and locked out from Battlelog. But that is encouraging which may mean that 58% could only rise with Crossfire support on the horizon. Still waiting for DX9 frame pacing support so I can play Skyrim properly.

As for those that don't like to uphold companies to a certain standard or encourage one to just throw in the towel -


----------



## incog

my 7970 isn't supported yet q_q

in b4 mantle is actually a way to mine bitcoins faster


----------



## Cyro999

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AgentHydra*
> 
> Meh. I'm glad they are making demanding games more accessible for people with limited hardware, but they kind of just boned all the people with capable systems who were looking for a bit more performance. Maybe I'm ignorant but I don't remember them saying the performance benefits would only be for people with CPU bottlenecks.
> 
> I'm still glad it's happening though, good for less capable systems and hopefully it will be useful in the game porting process.


Problem was, 4770k/9590 show massive cpu bottlenecking for anybody trying to get fps consistently around 120+, with as many as ~3-5% of frames (3-5 every second on average) being slower than 1/60'th of a second and averages just not climbing high enough, on these benches you see SB-E can only reach 120fps even with crazy GPU power >after< the >50% speedup from mantle.. The high-fps guys are kinda screwed here.

a 4770k and 280x is preferable to a 4770k with dual 780ti for someone who wants to turn down graphics for fps (..it's a first person shooter, guys)


----------



## bencher

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bvsbutthd101*
> 
> who buys an apu and pairs it with a r9 290


I just might do that.


----------



## Sadmoto

I wonder if bf4 will run on my friends laptop with a dual core athlon m300 and a RS880M GPU inside of that.








I think I'll be doing some testing with that just to see if i can get it to run let alone at playable speeds.
I get MAYBE 15-30fps at best on mmos like rift with the lowest settings, keep that in mind


----------



## keikei

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *incog*
> 
> my 7970 isn't supported yet q_q
> 
> in b4 mantle is actually a way to mine bitcoins faster


Yeah, i just read that part as well. We have to wait till the update to Mantle. Glad its out though. I'm imaging 3 digit fps on my rig once activated!

EDIT: Hold on. In the tests theres a 7970.


Test case 2: 64-player multi-player
CPU AMD FX-8350, 8 cores @ 4 GHz
GPU *AMD Radeon 7970 3 GB*
Settings Ultra 1080p
OS Windows 8 64-bit
Level Siege of Shanghai
DX11 avg 18.87 ms/f (52.9 fps)
Mantle avg 15.08 ms/f (66.3 fps)
Improvement *25.1% faster*
So I just have to wait for 14.1 then?


----------



## Vagrant Storm

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bvsbutthd101*
> 
> who buys an apu and pairs it with a r9 290


Well, if Mantle gets widely used...I bet a lot of people would. Even without Mantle an A10 is still a decent CPU. I've built all sorts of rigs using high GPUs with them...not a 290 though.

Why spend money if you don't have to? Plus if the primary GPU had to go in for a RMA you'd be left with a decent APU graphics to tide you over and get your endorphin fix.

If Mantle flops and not many developers make a Mantle version...than it will be all for nothing. Many have claimed to be on board with mantle already, but it could easily get taken back at this point...especially if it ends up being busy work for them with no return on investment.

Note that even if an A10 gets a 40% performance increase and gets on par with a higher end CPU in gaming...that isn't going to help if a user is ripping a blue ray or compiling code or encoding video or whatever. So it will only be the people who are looking to save some money and are PC gamers that would bite on it.


----------



## Sadmoto

"Note: AMD Catalyst™ 14.1 initially supports the AMD Radeon™ R9 290X, R9 290, R7 260X and "Kaveri" APU "

does this mean 7800 and 7900 GCN cards aren't supported yet? :S
it does say you need a GCN card above what I quoted but wouldnt they say 7800 and 7900 series cards were supported too, or are we to assume they will be supported?


----------



## bvsbutthd101

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Vagrant Storm*
> 
> Well, if Mantle gets widely used...I bet a lot of people would. Even without Mantle an A10 is still a decent CPU. I've built all sorts of rigs using high GPUs with them...not a 290 though.
> 
> Why spend money if you don't have to? Plus if the primary GPU had to go in for a RMA you'd be left with a decent APU graphics to tide you over and get your endorphin fix.


That would be great, if every game or a large portion supported mantle. It would make sense then.


----------



## Artev

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *incog*
> 
> my 7970 isn't supported yet q_q
> 
> in b4 mantle is actually a way to mine bitcoins faster


no its supported, just not optimized


----------



## Offler

https://www.facebook.com/AMDGaming/posts/592679814137843?stream_ref=10

From the post:
AMD Catalyst 14.1 Beta will support ALL desktop GCN products, though we are working with EA to further optimize performance on 280X, 270X, HD 7000 and HD 8000. We have asked EA to update their blog to reflect this.

so EA screwed the info...

Edit:
Also still finding "reviews" which interprete 1,6% gain with I7-4960x & R7-260 as typical gain. Once again Mantle will improve performance in case when GPU is NOT the limiting factor.

The reason is that CPU limitations are currently (at least partially) caused by DirectX.

Edit2: RELEASE THE KRAKEN... Oh i mean... driver...


----------



## Vagrant Storm

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Sadmoto*
> 
> "Note: AMD Catalyst™ 14.1 initially supports the AMD Radeon™ R9 290X, R9 290, R7 260X and "Kaveri" APU "
> 
> does this mean 7800 and 7900 GCN cards aren't supported yet? :S
> it does say you need a GCN card above what I quoted but wouldnt they say 7800 and 7900 series cards were supported too, or are we to assume they will be supported?


I am starting to wonder if the Mantle code goes beyond just requiring GCN...maybe the Mantle code has to be tweaked for each model of GPU even if the GPUs are using GCN. Gosh that would be bad if it went off the BIOS or something too and you could not edit the BIOS any more. I wasn't expecting there to be anything stopping the 7xxx series GCN cards from being on board. Perhaps with limited official testing by AMD, but I was expecting them to be supported by the drivers.


----------



## vinton13

So wait, this doesn't support the 7900 cards?


----------



## Offler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *vinton13*
> 
> So wait, this doesn't support the 7900 cards?


It DOES. see my previous post.


----------



## vinton13

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Offler*
> 
> It DOES. see my previous post.


Oh...sorry. Judging from some of the posts earlier I thought it wasn't supported. Thanks!


----------



## Vagrant Storm

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *vinton13*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Offler*
> 
> It DOES. see my previous post.
> 
> 
> 
> Oh...sorry. Judging from some of the posts earlier I thought it wasn't supported. Thanks!
Click to expand...

Yeah looks like just a communication break down between AMD and EA.


----------



## vloeibaarglas

DICE is kinda fail. They bench a 7970 with Mantle then claim that non Hawaii chips are jot supported by the driver release today.

Thankfully, AMD issued a correction to reign in the Nvidia fanboys.


----------



## bencher

Very rarely I see my card being at 88% usage in bf4.

This will definitely help.


----------



## Offler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *vinton13*
> 
> Oh...sorry. Judging from some of the posts earlier I thought it wasn't supported. Thanks!


No problem. Sorry for overreaction.

AMD reacted on this only 2-3 hours ago. So since the morning there was rumour started by EA/Dice blog.

They stated about Cat 14.1 that "some graphics" will be supported, and in the same blog entry was test where they used HD 7970 for the testing. What is true is fact that HD7970 and similar graphics still need additional optimizations for BF4. Nothing more nothing less, so 14.1 Beta with Mantle will support ALL GCN based graphics.

This was strange from the very beginning. Why not to support hardware which has same HW capabilities and still make and release benchmarks with this HW?


----------



## Neilthran

Apart from BF4, is there anything else that's using mantle right now? no tech demos? no tests?


----------



## Sadmoto

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Neilthran*
> 
> Apart from BF4, is there anything else that's using mantle right now? no tech demos? no tests?


I wanna say its bf4 only until Thief comes out? correct me if im wrong, It all I could find


----------



## Artev

there's a demo coming out on steam at 3pm for that space RTS game


----------



## DapperDan795

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Artev*
> 
> there's a demo coming out on steam at 3pm for that space RTS game


Is that going to end being being a real game? I was pretty interested in from what little I saw.


----------



## Offler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Neilthran*
> 
> Apart from BF4, is there anything else that's using mantle right now? no tech demos? no tests?


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Artev*
> 
> there's a demo coming out on steam at 3pm for that space RTS game


Starswarm demo. Still not on steam. They said 3:00pm. Which timezone?









At all the driver does not seem to be available yet.
(and AMD made "download link guessing" much harder now)


----------



## PostalTwinkie

Well....

I am hugely disappointed...

We knew it was going to help the lower end processor people, but it didn't do crap for those of us with higher end rigs. I won't feel the slightest bit bad about dumping these 7970s for 780 Tis and that Asus ROG SWIFT monitor.

I welcome the return of my, once again, overlord Nvidia!

Altar and Knucklehead were right this whole time......
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Fniz92*
> 
> Not sure what you're on about, but the 8350 / 7970 shows 25 % improvement on mantle.
> Are you telling me the 8350 & 7970 aren't high end?


The thing about this....is...

Why buy AMD and have Intel like performance in only Mantle games, when I can buy Intel and have Intel like performance in ALL the games I play? Glad AMD removed the LOW END bottleneck on LOW END CPUs, but this is disappointing for those of us with higher end hardware.

Mantle is great for the budget gamer it seems, someone that wants to go low end due to cost, and get pretty solid performance on Mantle games.

Just being completely honest here, but, when I seen the "Up to 45%" I knew that was the absolute highest possible, so I shot low, and said the low end would be around 15%. Not in my wildest dreams did I expect to see numbers as low as 2%!


----------



## RagingCain

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PostalTwinkie*
> 
> Well....
> 
> I am hugely disappointed...
> 
> We knew it was going to help the lower end processor people, but it didn't do crap for those of us with higher end rigs. I won't feel the slightest bit bad about dumping these 7970s for 780 Tis and that Asus ROG SWIFT monitor.
> 
> I welcome the return of my, once again, overlord Nvidia!
> 
> Altar and Knucklehead were right this whole time......


Well a lot of us told you guys don't believe the hype or at least don't believe that marketing.
However, conversely, initial results don't prove the product sucks. AMD always has rough deliveries.

Secondly, I do believe there is some misinformation where the HD 7xxx are supported, but not optimized. I can't make heads or tails out of what's real.

DirectX11.1 is not nearly as bad as the children on the forum will have you believe. The overhead is primarily seen on weak CPU driven machines. That just happens to be AMD.

Anybody believing that hardware would magically become more powerful with a CTM API doesn't honestly understand how DX11.1 is the pinnacle of DirectX and comparing an infant API to DX11.1 is the same as comparing 3DFX Glide to DirectX1 back in the day.


----------



## keikei

Well, just played a game and fps is equal to single card performance for 7970. Crossfire i guess is not compatible yet.


----------



## Timeofdoom

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PostalTwinkie*
> 
> Well....
> 
> I am hugely disappointed...
> 
> We knew it was going to help the lower end processor people, but it didn't do crap for those of us with higher end rigs. I won't feel the slightest bit bad about dumping these 7970s for 780 Tis and that Asus ROG SWIFT monitor.
> 
> I welcome the return of my, once again, overlord Nvidia!
> 
> Altar and Knucklehead were right this whole time......


Quote:


> Test case 3: High-end single-player with multiple GPUs
> CPU: Intel Core i7-3970x Extreme, 12 logical cores @ 3.5 GHz
> GPU: 2x AMD Radeon R9 290x 4 GB
> Settings: 1080p ULTRA 4x MSAA
> OS: Windows 8 64-bit
> Level: South China Sea "Broken Flight Deck"
> This single-player scene is heavy on both the CPU and GPU with lots of action going on. Test was done on the highest end Intel CPU on Windows 8, which is the fastest option before Mantle thanks to DirectX 11.1. Still this CPU is not fast enough to keep the 2 290x GPUs fed at 1080p on Ultra settings so we get a significant CPU performance bottleneck which results in major performance improvement when enabling Mantle.
> Result: 13.24 ms/f -> = 8.38 ms/f = 58% faster


----------



## Artev

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PostalTwinkie*
> 
> Well....
> 
> I am hugely disappointed...
> 
> We knew it was going to help the lower end processor people, but it didn't do crap for those of us with higher end rigs. I won't feel the slightest bit bad about dumping these 7970s for 780 Tis and that Asus ROG SWIFT monitor.
> 
> I welcome the return of my, once again, overlord Nvidia!
> 
> Altar and Knucklehead were right this whole time......
> The thing about this....is...
> 
> Why buy AMD and have Intel like performance in only Mantle games, when I can buy Intel and have Intel like performance in ALL the games I play? Glad AMD removed the LOW END bottleneck on LOW END CPUs, but this is disappointing for those of us with higher end hardware.
> 
> Mantle is great for the budget gamer it seems, someone that wants to go low end due to cost, and get pretty solid performance on Mantle games.


omg, can people at least download and test stuff out before making such short sighted statements?


----------



## djriful

At least now mid end computer can run decently on new games that support Mantle.


----------



## bencher

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PostalTwinkie*
> 
> Well....
> 
> I am hugely disappointed...
> 
> We knew it was going to help the lower end processor people, but it didn't do crap for those of us with higher end rigs. I won't feel the slightest bit bad about dumping these 7970s for 780 Tis and that Asus ROG SWIFT monitor.
> 
> I welcome the return of my, once again, overlord Nvidia!
> 
> Altar and Knucklehead were right this whole time......
> The thing about this....is...
> 
> Why buy AMD and have Intel like performance in only Mantle games, when I can buy Intel and have Intel like performance in ALL the games I play? Glad AMD removed the LOW END bottleneck on LOW END CPUs, but this is disappointing for those of us with higher end hardware.
> 
> Mantle is great for the budget gamer it seems, someone that wants to go low end due to cost, and get pretty solid performance on Mantle games.


Uhhmm your cpu is a part of the lower end category.

Bottleneck is removed everywhere.

Intel 4770k cannot handle 2 R9 290x. Mantle brings over 50% improvements there.

And you are a budget gamer based on your specs.


----------



## Offler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PostalTwinkie*
> 
> Well....
> 
> I am hugely disappointed...
> 
> We knew it was going to help the lower end processor people, but it didn't do crap for those of us with higher end rigs. I won't feel the slightest bit bad about dumping these 7970s for 780 Tis and that Asus ROG SWIFT monitor.
> 
> I welcome the return of my, once again, overlord Nvidia!
> 
> Altar and Knucklehead were right this whole time......


Sorry, but I have to mention that
a) any current GPU is much faster that any current CPU...
b) The stronger GPU, the more it was dragged down by CPU and DX.
c) Even If you have strong CPU, you still can take benefit of the Mantle. Definitely not with R7-260, but surely with R9-280, also with R9-290x. Now start thinking about crossfire, and possibilites of future graphic cards with your current CPU.


----------



## jordanecmusic

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PostalTwinkie*
> 
> Well....
> 
> I am hugely disappointed...
> 
> We knew it was going to help the lower end processor people, but it didn't do crap for those of us with higher end rigs. I won't feel the slightest bit bad about dumping these 7970s for 780 Tis and that Asus ROG SWIFT monitor.
> 
> I welcome the return of my, once again, overlord Nvidia!
> 
> Altar and Knucklehead were right this whole time......
> The thing about this....is...
> 
> Why buy AMD and have Intel like performance in only Mantle games, when I can buy Intel and have Intel like performance in ALL the games I play? Glad AMD removed the LOW END bottleneck on LOW END CPUs, but this is disappointing for those of us with higher end hardware.
> 
> Mantle is great for the budget gamer it seems, someone that wants to go low end due to cost, and get pretty solid performance on Mantle games.
> 
> Just being completely honest here, but, when I seen the "Up to 45%" I knew that was the absolute highest possible, so I shot low, and said the low end would be around 15%. Not in my wildest dreams did I expect to see numbers as low as 2%!


Welcome to Beta Testing! Where you do not recieve the full outcome of a piece of software, rather you help create the final outcome!


----------



## Timeofdoom

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *keikei*
> 
> Well, just played a game and fps is equal to single card performance for 7970. Crossfire i guess is not compatible yet.


Driver isn't out yet?








Therefore mantle ain't even enabled in the first place.


----------



## Dimaggio1103

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bvsbutthd101*
> 
> That would be great, if every game or a large portion supported mantle. It would make sense then.


Doesn't need too. As long as its the games the buyer plays. For instance if someone was wanting to build a BF4 rig, this is an excellent route. People invest too much into their CPU then pair it with a relatively weak GPU. For gaming that is just dumb. Without HSA/Huma/Mantle the kaveri CPU is great, everything else from this point on is just gravy IMO. I Play all the same games at maxed settings 1080P that a person does with an i7, sounds like a win too me.


----------



## Timeofdoom

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PostalTwinkie*
> 
> Just being completely honest here, but, when I seen the "Up to 45%" I knew that was the absolute highest possible, so I shot low, and said the low end would be around 15%. Not in my wildest dreams did I expect to see numbers as low as 2%!


Are you talking about the part where they paired a I7 49xxK with a R7 260X? OFC you wouldn't see a perf. increase there, since there is *minimal* bottlenecking. Get over yourself.


----------



## keikei

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Timeofdoom*
> 
> Driver isn't out yet?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Therefore mantle ain't even enabled in the first place.


Correct, BUT the new BF4 update disables crossfire for my setup. So i went from 45-50 to 20fps right now.


----------



## PostalTwinkie

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bencher*
> 
> Uhhmm your cpu is a part of the lower end category.
> 
> Bottleneck is removed everywhere.
> 
> Intel 4770k cannot handle 2 R9 290x. Mantle brings over 50% improvements there.
> 
> And you are a budget gamer based on your specs.


Right, because this was budget a year+ ago.









Even by today's standards my system isn't budget.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *jordanecmusic*
> 
> Welcome to Beta Testing! Where you do not recieve the full outcome of a piece of software, rather you help create the final outcome!


Hahahaha, ahh.....

Good old AMD.

_"Hey, we know you have waited MONTHS for this, and we have delayed it for MONTHS, but...here ya go! Oh and by the way....it's still beta!"_

Sorry, I am not going to believe the line from AMD that this is beta; you don't hype a beta product like this, you don't go so over the top with your press conferences to release a beta project.

Here is what this is, a new technology that developers don't have time with. I am sure it will get better as they get used to it, much like with new consoles, by end of life on a console developers are much more proficient with them. So the quality of games you see is typically higher compared to when new.

You can swing from AMDs you know what all you want on this, but for as OVERLY hyped as this was.....not that great.


----------



## djriful

... 1.23gb update just Mantle only?


----------



## Timeofdoom

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *keikei*
> 
> Correct, BUT the new BF4 update disables crossfire for my setup. So i went from 45-50 to 20fps right now.


Strange. Do you have the option for a render path in Graphics?
Otherwise, try adding BF4 manually in the 3D application settings in Catalyst and play around with the settings.


----------



## Timeofdoom

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *djriful*
> 
> ... 1.23gb update just Mantle only?


Nah, should also be a regular patch included methinks. Including this I suppose: http://blogs.battlefield.com/2014/01/bf4-balancing-vehicles/


----------



## keikei

Yeah, seems Mantle isnt 100% ready. Its a trade off though. Do you want a partial working patch now or a fully working patch months from now? This is the current situation.


----------



## Sadmoto

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *keikei*
> 
> Yeah, seems Mantle isnt 100% ready. Its a trade off though. Do you want a partial working patch now or a fully working patch months from now? This is the current situation.


DICE was probably thinking the same with BF4 in general, and they should of waited.


----------



## BinaryDemon

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *keikei*
> 
> Yeah, seems Mantle isnt 100% ready. Its a trade off though. Do you want a partial working patch now or a fully working patch months from now? This is the current situation.


And here I thought everything EA touches was forever in a partially working state.


----------



## MapRef41N93W

Well this definitely changes my plans to build a mini-itx gamebox style PC. I was gonna go with the i5 but if Kaveri has results like this with Mantle I could pick it up and just go dual graphics and save a bunch of money to spend on my main rig (not to mention get a free copy of BF4). I have been on the green team for the past few years, but as I have always said I am only loyal to the one with the best product so I might be jumping ship if Mantle plays out like this in a lot of other games.


----------



## Timeofdoom

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PostalTwinkie*
> 
> Right, because this was budget a year+ ago.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Even by today's standards my system isn't budget.
> Hahahaha, ahh.....
> 
> Good old AMD.
> 
> _"Hey, we know you have waited MONTHS for this, and we have delayed it for MONTHS, but...here ya go! Oh and by the way....it's still beta!"_
> 
> Sorry, I am not going to believe the line from AMD that this is beta; you don't hype a beta product like this, you don't go so over the top with your press conferences to release a beta project.
> 
> Here is what this is, a new technology that developers don't have time with. I am sure it will get better as they get used to it, much like with new consoles, by end of life on a console developers are much more proficient with them. So the quality of games you see is typically higher compared to when new.
> 
> You can swing from AMDs you know what all you want on this, but for as OVERLY hyped as this was.....not that great.


I like how you jumped over my responses








SInce you have a CF setup somewhat comparable to the one I linked, you should definitely see gains over the bad example of 2 %, which you made.
Moving on...


----------



## BinaryDemon

I hate these AMD technology slides, I can't wait to see some real reviews.


----------



## djriful

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Timeofdoom*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *djriful*
> 
> ... 1.23gb update just Mantle only?
> 
> 
> 
> Nah, should also be a regular patch included methinks. Including this I suppose: http://blogs.battlefield.com/2014/01/bf4-balancing-vehicles/
Click to expand...

Oh no wait! Here is the patch note! I feel dumb!

http://battlelog.battlefield.com/bf4/forum/threadview/2979150493816135134/

*CPU/GPU performance and monitoring *


Tweaked and improved CPU multi-core utilization to try and avoid stuttering and low framerate due to stalls that happened on some CPU and OS configurations. 
Users can now configure and control themselves how many CPU cores should be used in the game with the new "Thread.MaxProcessorCount" settings in User.cfg. 
"Render.DrawScreenInfo 1" now also shows information about which CPU and GPU is in the system, how many GPUs & CPU cores are used and which renderer (DirectX 11 or Mantle) is active 
Added new "PerfOverlay.FrameFileLogEnable" command that records frame times on CPU & GPU and logs out to a .csv file 
AMD Catalyst driver 13.12 (or later) is now recommended instead of 13.9 
Enabled tile-based compute shader lighting optimization on Nvidia for improved GPU performance (already active on AMD GPUs) 
Improved performance with rendering and spotlights for all GPUs, primarily in in-door environments


----------



## keikei

Anyone running 290x's @ high res?


----------



## Offler

Driver 14.1 beta isnt out yet. Maybe thats the reason why BF4 with Mantle patch cant work properly on older drivers with crossfire.


----------



## tsm106

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Sadmoto*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *keikei*
> 
> Yeah, seems Mantle isnt 100% ready. Its a trade off though. Do you want a partial working patch now or a fully working patch months from now? This is the current situation.
> 
> 
> 
> DICE was probably thinking the same with BF4 in general, and they should of waited.
Click to expand...

You're saying you'd rather not have it? Then don't enable mantle then? It would then make NO difference to you.


----------



## bencher

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PostalTwinkie*
> 
> Right, because this was budget a year+ ago.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Even by today's standards my system isn't budget.
> Hahahaha, ahh.....


That is a budget system. Even when it just came out.

So laugh the truth away.


----------



## jason387

So mantle benefits the most when an AMD R9 290 gpu is coupled with a very high end cpu? Like an Intel chip , an i7?


----------



## keikei

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *tsm106*
> 
> You're saying you'd rather not have it? Then don't enable mantle then? It would then make NO difference to you.


I'm glad its out. However, it does make a difference in my state. The new patch disables crossfire, therefore halving my fps right now. No biggie for me (i can wait), but other peeps might be more than a little disappointed.


----------



## Vagrant Storm

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *keikei*
> 
> Yeah, seems Mantle isnt 100% ready. Its a trade off though. Do you want a partial working patch now or a fully working patch months from now? This is the current situation.


On top of that...this is just a patch. I have a feeling that if a game was compiled with the Mantle Options set that we might get more out of it.

Though I am really beginning to get suspect of the A10 + 290 results increasing 40%...I have never seen an A10 perform that much worse in games than even a 3770k when combined with the same GPU, but I haven't tried BF4 on it. I've seen the benches showing an old althlon x4 combined with a 290 getting 88fps and all the top end CPUs were at 95fps on an obvious GPU bottleneck.

There is no way an A10 should even have room to increase by 40%. I build rigs for people all the time using them and they are not that bad of a CPU. Does every one think this is even possible?

This is what I am posting about

I mean it is still only "High" settings, but how could that A10 increase 40%? That would be like...35fps putting it far above the high end CPUs with their measly performance boost. Does ultra change the CPU usage that much?


----------



## Jack Mac

Idk why everyone is getting so upset, if you don't like Mantle or the improvements it brings, good for you. Nobody is forcing you to use Mantle or even buy AMD products. It's annoying how we can't discuss products from either side in peace due to all the fanboys.


----------



## djriful

Why is everyone being annoyed? This is good news for PC industries! Comeon!


----------



## Nintendo Maniac 64

I think I can speak for a lot of people when I say this...

We seriously need the big hardware-review sites to run their benchmarks soon, because the amount of misinformation in this thread is insane.

(specifically, people wrongly thinking that crossfire and/or 7xxx GPUs will get no benefit)


----------



## PostalTwinkie

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nintendo Maniac 64*
> 
> I think I can speak for a lot of people when I say this...
> 
> We seriously need the big hardware-review sites to run their benchmarks soon, because the amount of misinformation in this thread is insane.
> 
> (specifically, people thinking crossfire and 7xxx series will get no benefit)


I believe that is due to the bugs within Mantle right now, and how they aren't fully supported. Although that support is coming with a later update, as per AMD.

The full 3rd party numbers I believe will be more comprehensive and account for systems with OC on them, a bit more representative of what you might see in the wild.


----------



## xentrox

So in conclusion, Mantle is a solution that's more targeted towards people with slower CPUs and a GCN card.

Would be nice if Nvidia would get on board with this, instead of this API segmentation. I think the entire market would benefit.


----------



## wstanci3

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *jason387*
> 
> So mantle benefits the most when an AMD R9 290 gpu is coupled with a very high end cpu? Like an Intel chip , an i7?


It benefits xfire the most when there is a substantial cpu bottleneck. So, the results showed that a 3960x @ stock with xfire got a substantial boost coupled with mantle. Of course, this performance increase dwindles when an overclock is introduced.
When there is one 290 and a 3960x @ stock, for example, there would be a nice performance increase as well.


----------



## Jack Mac

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *xentrox*
> 
> So in conclusion, Mantle is a solution that's more targeted towards people with slower CPUs and a GCN card.
> 
> Would be nice if Nvidia would get on board with this, instead of this API segmentation. I think the entire market would benefit.


Everyone would benefit except for Microsoft.


----------



## dir_d

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nintendo Maniac 64*
> 
> I think I can speak for a lot of people when I say this...
> 
> We seriously need the big hardware-review sites to run their benchmarks soon, because the amount of misinformation in this thread is insane.
> 
> (specifically, people wrongly thinking that crossfire and/or 7xxx GPUs will get no benefit)


Just need the drivers.


----------



## Nintendo Maniac 64

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PostalTwinkie*
> 
> I believe that is due to the bugs within Mantle right now, and how they aren't fully supported. Although that support is coming with a later update, as per AMD.
> 
> The full 3rd party numbers I believe will be more comprehensive and account for systems with OC on them, a bit more representative of what you might see in the wild.


But you were saying earlier that you'll see no benefit even though it was shown that Ivy Bridge E + 2x 290X's had a 50%+ performance increase, and I'm pretty sure your 2500K is weaker than Ivy Bridge E.


----------



## PostalTwinkie

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nintendo Maniac 64*
> 
> But you were saying earlier that you'll see no benefit even though it was shown that Ivy Bridge E + 2x 290X's had a 50%+ performance increase, and I'm pretty sure your 2500K is weaker than Ivy Bridge E.


Honestly, who the hell struggles with 290X crossfire at 1080P? Really?

Oh, and what in gods name is "ms/f"? Can you please help with that?


----------



## Alatar

I don't buy the 55% increase with CFX 290s.

AMD's own numbers say that with a 290X you'll get a ~9.2% increase at 1080p.

AMD GPUs on DX11.1 in crossfire and in BF4 scale something like 1.9x right? Even more than that according to some AMD slides.

DICE numbers show a 55% increase over DX11.1 when in CFX.

So using 100% as a baseline:

DX11.1 290X = 100%
Mantle 290X = 109.2%
DX11.1 290X Crossfire = 190%
Mantle 290X Crossfire = 294.5%

Meaning that Crossfire scaling when using mantle is *2.7x*

Even if you took a really conservative approach to scaling either the AMD number or the DICE number is wrong or skewed by the testing situation in question.

Someone please explain how the math checks out with this one?

As a conclusion I'm waiting for reliable 3rd party numbers.


----------



## Forceman

People need to understand that those big numbers Dice are throwing around are still specific hand-picked situations though. You aren't going to see 58% gains across the board. It should help even the performance by greatly increasing the mins, not necessarily by increasing the maxes (which is probably better anyway, as you notice the min more than the max).


----------



## wstanci3

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nintendo Maniac 64*
> 
> But you were saying earlier that you'll see no benefit even though it was shown that Ivy Bridge E + 2x 290X's had a 50%+ performance increase, and I'm pretty sure your 2500K is weaker than Ivy Bridge E.


If you look at his sig, you can see he has a nice overclock of 4.6ghz on his 2500k.
That test result showed +50% performance increase on a stock 3960x. If you were to crank that overclock to 4.5ghz+, the performance increase would be less. How much less, I have not a clue.


----------



## PostalTwinkie

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Alatar*
> 
> I don't buy the 55% increase with CFX 290s.
> 
> AMD's own numbers say that with a 290X you'll get a ~9.2% increase at 1080p.
> 
> AMD GPUs on DX11.1 in crossfire and in BF4 scale something like 1.9x right? Even more than that according to some AMD slides.
> 
> DICE numbers show a 55% increase over DX11.1 when in CFX.
> 
> So using 100% as a baseline:
> 
> DX11.1 290X = 100%
> Mantle 290X = 109.2%
> DX11.1 290X Crossfire = 190%
> Mantle 290X Crossfire = 294.5%
> 
> Meaning that Crossfire scaling when using mantle is *2.7x*
> 
> Even if you took a really conservative approach to scaling either the AMD number or the DICE number is wrong or skewed by the testing situation in question.
> 
> Someone please explain how the math checks out with this one?
> 
> As a conclusion I'm waiting for reliable 3rd party numbers.


Yea, kind of wondering that myself.


----------



## bencher

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Forceman*
> 
> People need to understand that those big numbers Dice are throwing around are still specific hand-picked situations though. You aren't going to see 58% gains across the board. It should help even the performance by greatly increasing the mins, not necessarily by increasing the maxes (which is probably better anyway, as you notice the min more than the max).


True, they could have just gotten it from a specific situation.

Now to wait for other reviews.


----------



## quakermaas

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PostalTwinkie*
> 
> EDIT:
> 
> Ah, seems there is an issue with 7000 series support on Mantle, and Crossfire isn't supported? If that is true...how the hell did AMD mess that up?










Where are you getting your info from ? the driver (14.1 beta) has not been released yet, so none of us know anything solid yet at ALL.


----------



## Derp

How long until we see mantle in other games besides BF4?


----------



## wstanci3

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Forceman*
> 
> People need to understand that those big numbers Dice are throwing around are still specific hand-picked situations though. *You aren't going to see 58% gains across the board*. It should help even the performance by greatly increasing the mins, not necessarily by increasing the maxes (which is probably better anyway, as you notice the min more than the max).


Absolutely not. I totally agree. This is still all marketing spin as far as I am concerned. Until I see results from OCN and other games, I hold everything in question.


----------



## PostalTwinkie

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *quakermaas*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Where are you getting your info from ? the driver (14.1 beta) has not been released yet, so none of us know anything solid yet at ALL.


I say "They aren't supported"

and you call that into question by saying "How do you know, the drivers aren't out?"

Wouldn't the drivers not being out to support the product mean it isn't being supported right now? Going to let you think that one through....


----------



## Offler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *xentrox*
> 
> So in conclusion, Mantle is a solution that's more targeted towards people with slower CPUs and a GCN card.
> 
> Would be nice if Nvidia would get on board with this, instead of this API segmentation. I think the entire market would benefit.


I wouldnt say targeted, but when you start to optimize engine, you will remove CPU bottlenecks. So in case that your CPU is significantly weaker than your GPU, you will most likely gain higher benefit.

it does not automatically means that when you have I7-3999 TripleX edition you will not benefit from it. You will, but its less probable that you will encounter CPU bottleneck. In the future when there will be games with higher CPU requirements, Mantle will make the difference more visible.


----------



## Jhors2

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Derp*
> 
> How long until we see mantle in other games besides BF4?


Thief is going to be the next game which is targeted for a late February release.


----------



## fashric

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bvsbutthd101*
> 
> who buys an apu and pairs it with a r9 290


A lot more people than before.


----------



## Derp

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Jhors2*
> 
> Thief is going to be the next game which is targeted for a late February release.


Is mantle something that can be duct taped onto popular current games or is this something that requires the devs to code for from the ground up during development?


----------



## Vagrant Storm

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Alatar*
> 
> I don't buy the 55% increase with CFX 290s.
> 
> AMD's own numbers say that with a 290X you'll get a ~9.2% increase at 1080p.
> 
> AMD GPUs on DX11.1 in crossfire and in BF4 scale something like 1.9x right? Even more than that according to some AMD slides.
> 
> DICE numbers show a 55% increase over DX11.1 when in CFX.
> 
> So using 100% as a baseline:
> 
> DX11.1 290X = 100%
> Mantle 290X = 109.2%
> DX11.1 290X Crossfire = 190%
> Mantle 290X Crossfire = 294.5%
> 
> Meaning that Crossfire scaling when using mantle is *2.7x*
> 
> Even if you took a really conservative approach to scaling either the AMD number or the DICE number is wrong or skewed by the testing situation in question.
> 
> Someone please explain how the math checks out with this one?
> 
> As a conclusion I'm waiting for reliable 3rd party numbers.


And how is the A10 +290 combo getting a 40% increase? Shouldn't it be as GPU bottlenecked as other CPUs?

BF4 CPU benchmark.

Baring the two threaded CPUs all the numbers are close enough to where I call them a GPU bottleneck. This is only High settings...so it should be even more than 40% if this test was re-done...unless the ultra settings make the game CPU bottlenecked some how.

This is probably going back to the "up to" comment. Perhaps a split second of an explosion keeps a 40% higher frame rate or something.


----------



## Sadmoto

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *tsm106*
> 
> You're saying you'd rather not have it? Then don't enable mantle then? It would then make NO difference to you.


Im saying I rather wait and have something working correctly instead of something being half assed and have them pretty much say "hey here's what we have, it is what it is."
Do you and everyone want to go through months of grief that we did with bf4 just to get it working more then every other game? Players are still have problems with problems that were there since day one.

Yea I rather wait, we've been without mantle for this long, I think we'll survive while they actually finish it.

it must be the new theme of the year, to just throw out unfinished product, and its the consumers fault to an extent because we are all "WE NEED IT NOA!!!!!NOW NOWNOW" like 5yr olds.

its like baking a cake, you can pull it out before its finished and you'll have a pile of crap, or you you can wait, and enjoy every last bite as it should be.

I now cant even play bf4 because now when I go ingame my keyboard wont work, it wont let me spawn, nothing, because it says I have to update my driver, to a driver thats not out yet.










its like they sold a car with no wheels or a baseball with no bat or glove.


----------



## bencher

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Derp*
> 
> Is mantle something that can be duct taped onto popular current games or is this something that requires the devs to code for from the ground up during development?


it is required to be inside the game engine, just like DX and OpenGL.


----------



## Kuivamaa

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Alatar*
> 
> DX11.1 290X = 100%
> Mantle 290X = 109.2%
> DX11.1 290X Crossfire = 190%
> Mantle 290X Crossfire = 294.5%


3: Multi-GPU single-player
CPU Intel Core i7-3970x Extreme, 12 logical cores @ 3.5 GHz
GPU 2x AMD Radeon R9 290x 4 GB
Settings Ultra 1080p 4x MSAA
Windows 8 64-bit
Level South China Sea
DX11 avg 13.24 ms/f (78.4 fps)
Mantle avg 8.38 ms/f (121.5 fps)
Improvement 58% faster

If scaling is 1.9x for CFX under DX11 then in this case scenario a single 290x would produce 41-42 fps, 78.4fps in xfire. Assuming equal scaling under mantle, a single 290x would produce ~64-65fps.


----------



## SKYMTL

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Kuivamaa*
> 
> 3: Multi-GPU single-player
> CPU Intel Core i7-3970x Extreme, 12 logical cores @ 3.5 GHz
> GPU 2x AMD Radeon R9 290x 4 GB
> Settings Ultra 1080p 4x MSAA
> Windows 8 64-bit
> Level South China Sea
> DX11 avg 13.24 ms/f (78.4 fps)
> Mantle avg 8.38 ms/f (121.5 fps)
> Improvement 58% faster
> 
> If scaling is 1.9x for CFX under DX11 then in this case scenario a single 290x would produce 41-42 fps, 78.4fps in xfire. Assuming equal scaling under mantle, a single 290x would produce ~64-65fps.


Again, this is because they're using 2x 290X at 1080P which guarantees a certain amount of CPU bottlenecking. Unfortunately, that means it doesn't scale in a linear fashion.


----------



## dir_d

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Derp*
> 
> Is mantle something that can be duct taped onto popular current games or is this something that requires the devs to code for from the ground up during development?


That is a good question. Inquiring minds want to know.


----------



## kersoz2003




----------



## Kuivamaa

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SKYMTL*
> 
> Again, this is because they're using 2x 290X at 1080P which guarantees a certain amount of CPU bottlenecking. Unfortunately, that means it doesn't scale in a linear fashion.


Regardless, if this scenario is real, 1080p/120hz users are gonna reap benefits.


----------



## stargate125645

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Forceman*
> 
> Here's a tabulated version (from PCPer)
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Core i7-4960X CPU + R9 290X GPU
> 1080p, Ultra Preset, 4xAA: 9.2% improvement with Mantle
> 1600p, Ultra Preset, 4xAA: 10% improvement with Mantle
> Core i7-4960X CPU + R7 260X GPU
> 1080p, Ultra Preset, 4xAA: 2.7% improvement
> 1600p, Ultra Preset, 4xAA: 1.4% improvement
> A10-7700K CPU + R9 290X GPU
> 1080p, Ultra Preset, 4xAA: 40.9% improvement
> 1600p, Ultra Preset, 4xAA: 17.3% improvement
> A10-7700K CPU + R7 260X GPU
> 1080p, Ultra Preset, 4xAA: 8.3% improvement
> 1600p, Low Preset: 16.8% improvement
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.pcper.com/reviews/Graphics-Cards/AMD-Catalyst-141-Beta-Driver-Brings-Mantle-Support-Frame-Pacing-Phase-2-HSA
Click to expand...

Any idea why such a huge improvement with the APUs vs CPUs?


----------



## Offler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Kuivamaa*
> 
> Regardless, if this scenario is real, 1080p/120hz users are gonna reap benefits.


As anyone who is playing on a game engine which is typically (DX) CPU bottlenecked.

To Stargate123456:
Mantle is less consuming on CPU resources than DirectX.


----------



## RagingCain

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Alatar*
> 
> I don't buy the 55% increase with CFX 290s.
> 
> AMD's own numbers say that with a 290X you'll get a ~9.2% increase at 1080p.
> 
> AMD GPUs on DX11.1 in crossfire and in BF4 scale something like 1.9x right? Even more than that according to some AMD slides.
> 
> DICE numbers show a 55% increase over DX11.1 when in CFX.
> 
> So using 100% as a baseline:
> 
> DX11.1 290X = 100%
> Mantle 290X = 109.2%
> DX11.1 290X Crossfire = 190%
> Mantle 290X Crossfire = 294.5%
> 
> Meaning that Crossfire scaling when using mantle is *2.7x*
> 
> Even if you took a really conservative approach to scaling either the AMD number or the DICE number is wrong or skewed by the testing situation in question.
> 
> Someone please explain how the math checks out with this one?
> 
> As a conclusion I'm waiting for reliable 3rd party numbers.


One, there is no way in hell they had a 55% increase unless it was in tandem with a major BF4 fix/update, not just Mantle.

I am calling it as bad math.

Noter: It is never possible to have more than 100% scaling, with the exception of comparing scaling in a situation like this. If the performance of both cards increase 10% and then the scaling also improves. It is only "over" 100% scaling when you compare it, like you did, to the original performance numbers.

The scaling is probably still only 90~95%. There by, 109.2% becomes 207~212% ONLY in comparison to the original performance of the two cards. It doesn't mean scaling magically became 107~112%.

Its marketing mojo tricking your eyes.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *stargate125645*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Forceman*
> 
> Here's a tabulated version (from PCPer)
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Core i7-4960X CPU + R9 290X GPU
> 1080p, Ultra Preset, 4xAA: 9.2% improvement with Mantle
> 1600p, Ultra Preset, 4xAA: 10% improvement with Mantle
> Core i7-4960X CPU + R7 260X GPU
> 1080p, Ultra Preset, 4xAA: 2.7% improvement
> 1600p, Ultra Preset, 4xAA: 1.4% improvement
> A10-7700K CPU + R9 290X GPU
> 1080p, Ultra Preset, 4xAA: 40.9% improvement
> 1600p, Ultra Preset, 4xAA: 17.3% improvement
> A10-7700K CPU + R7 260X GPU
> 1080p, Ultra Preset, 4xAA: 8.3% improvement
> 1600p, Low Preset: 16.8% improvement
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.pcper.com/reviews/Graphics-Cards/AMD-Catalyst-141-Beta-Driver-Brings-Mantle-Support-Frame-Pacing-Phase-2-HSA
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Any idea why such a huge improvement with the APUs vs CPUs?
Click to expand...

Very easy actually, Mantle is primarily an API to remove overhead and bottlenecks for CPU input. A weaker CPU can now be used with a higher powered GPU. I personally like this.


----------



## Derp

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *stargate125645*
> 
> Any idea why such a huge improvement with the APUs vs CPUs?


I would assume this is because the CPU portion of the APU is much slower than the processors they are comparing so the APU benefits much more. The i7 doesn't really need mantle because it's that much faster and brute forces through. Directx or mantle.

Again, just a guess.


----------



## Offler

Star Swarm on Steam !!!

Edit:
http://store.steampowered.com/app/267130/


----------



## Slomo4shO

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bvsbutthd101*
> 
> who buys an apu and pairs it with a r9 290


Me. R9 290 crossfire in fact


----------



## FastMHz

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Derp*
> 
> Is mantle something that can be duct taped onto popular current games or is this something that requires the devs to code for from the ground up during development?


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *dir_d*
> 
> That is a good question. Inquiring minds want to know.


Coming soon - Mantle Wrapper for all your old games and non GCN hardware!!


----------



## RagingCain

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Derp*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *stargate125645*
> 
> Any idea why such a huge improvement with the APUs vs CPUs?
> 
> 
> 
> I would assume this is because the CPU portion of the APU is much slower than the processors they are comparing so the APU benefits much more. The i7 doesn't really need mantle because it's that much faster and brute forces through. Directx or mantle.
> 
> Again, just a guess.
Click to expand...

You hit it right on the head, the CPU_DRAW calls have been moved to the GPU (the claim was silly but OVER 9000x times faster) I believe or are uber-threaded. I can't remember which.

So now in most future scenarios, you are GPU limited in performance, not CPU limited.

Intel has enough raw brute force performance not to need it, or with overclocks, it is fast enough not to be CPU bound.


----------



## Vagrant Storm

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kersoz2003*


Whoa...I had no clue the DX11 crossfire performance was that bad. Though if a 7970 was pulling 53fps...wouldn't a single 290x get around 60fps? Then you add another 290x and you only get 18fps more? Add in Mantle and now you are getting massive increases?

That...sounds like...they might have built the game to only use crossfire well under mantle. Basically what all of the non-AMD customers are looking forward to if Mantle becomes mainstream. I don't know...it all looks really fishy to me.

Any crossfire BF4 players care to comment on the fps you get in the game? How about SLI users?


----------



## Imouto

I just noticed that we may be wrong about these CF times. If you go by both screenshots in the battlelog site you just can't get 116 FPS with GPU times of 14.02 ms.

*Test case 3: High-end single-player with multiple GPUs*

DX
CPU 13.24 = 75 FPS
GPU 18.38 / 2 = 9.19 ms = 109 FPS
Screen showing 76 FPS = Massively CPU bottlenecked

Mantle
CPU 8.38 = 119 FPS
GPU 14.02 / 2 = 7.01 = 142 FPS
Screen showing 116 FPS = Slightly CPU bottlenecked


----------



## maarten12100

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Offler*
> 
> Star Swarm on Steam !!!


Kewl!


----------



## maarten12100

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *BinaryDemon*
> 
> I hate these AMD technology slides, I can't wait to see some real reviews.


but what about the Dice ones


----------



## Nevk

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Offler*
> 
> Star Swarm on Steam !!!


Thanks


----------



## FastMHz

^ Downloading now


----------



## RagingCain

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Imouto*
> 
> I just noticed that we may be wrong about these CF times. If you go by both screenshots in the battlelog site you just can't get 116 FPS with GPU times of 14.02 ms.
> 
> *Test case 3: High-end single-player with multiple GPUs*
> 
> DX
> CPU 13.24 = 75 FPS
> GPU 18.38 / 2 = 9.19 ms = 109 FPS
> Screen showing 76 FPS = Massively CPU bottlenecked
> 
> Mantle
> CPU 8.38 = 119 FPS
> GPU 14.02 / 2 = 7.01 = 142 FPS
> Screen showing 116 FPS = Slightly CPU bottlenecked


Well you did catch an error, they both can't be right, even with overhead.

Best bet is to wait for more info/3rd party testing from PCPer, hardwareCanucks, Guru, Anandtech et all.


----------



## maarten12100

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Alatar*
> 
> I don't buy the 55% increase with CFX 290s.
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!
> 
> 
> 
> AMD's own numbers say that with a 290X you'll get a ~9.2% increase at 1080p.
> 
> AMD GPUs on DX11.1 in crossfire and in BF4 scale something like 1.9x right? Even more than that according to some AMD slides.
> 
> DICE numbers show a 55% increase over DX11.1 when in CFX.
> 
> So using 100% as a baseline:
> 
> DX11.1 290X = 100%
> Mantle 290X = 109.2%
> DX11.1 290X Crossfire = 190%
> Mantle 290X Crossfire = 294.5%
> 
> Meaning that Crossfire scaling when using mantle is *2.7x*
> 
> Even if you took a really conservative approach to scaling either the AMD number or the DICE number is wrong or skewed by the testing situation in question.
> 
> Someone please explain how the math checks out with this one?
> 
> As a conclusion I'm waiting for reliable 3rd party numbers
> 
> 
> .


It might have been just that level look how well the cpu is handled! This however confirmed that the cpu is pretty much always a little bottleneck except in this bench.


----------



## frickfrock999

I'll be honest, that's a free performance upgrade at no risk to me.

I think it's awesome man. All things considered, it's pretty significant. Especially considering this is only the first release


----------



## maarten12100

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Derp*
> 
> How long until we see mantle in other games besides BF4?


A month for Thief


----------



## Offler

Well. started on 600kb/s (due my ISP), now its only 450









http://store.steampowered.com/app/267130/

However no mantle driver yet...


----------



## Kuivamaa

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Vagrant Storm*
> 
> Whoa...I had no clue the DX11 crossfire performance was that bad. Though if a 7970 was pulling 53fps...wouldn't a single 290x get around 60fps? Then you add another 290x and you only get 18fps more?


The 53 you see is on a totally different system (FX-8350), in a totally different map (siege of shanghai) ,under different settings (no MSAA vs 4xMSAA) and on top of that it is MP and not single player. Apples to pineapples.


----------



## King4x4

subbed


----------



## keikei

Any word on beta 14.1 drivers?


----------



## Slomo4shO

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *keikei*
> 
> Any word on beta 14.1 drivers?


Soon™


----------



## Exostenza

On AMD's twitter they say that *all GCN cards will be supported in the release of 14.1* which means that OP has false information in it.

I made this stupid big so that it would not get missed as it is substantive information here.


----------



## XT-107

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Imouto*
> 
> I just noticed that we may be wrong about these CF times. If you go by both screenshots in the battlelog site you just can't get 116 FPS with GPU times of 14.02 ms.
> 
> *Test case 3: High-end single-player with multiple GPUs*
> 
> DX
> CPU 13.24 = 75 FPS
> GPU 18.38 / 2 = 9.19 ms = 109 FPS
> Screen showing 76 FPS = Massively CPU bottlenecked
> 
> Mantle
> CPU 8.38 = 119 FPS
> GPU 14.02 / 2 = 7.01 = 142 FPS
> Screen showing 116 FPS = Slightly CPU bottlenecked


as i said earlier 78 fps is low for that setup


----------



## PureBlackFire

mantle brings all the boys to the yard:


----------



## FastMHz

That Star Swarm demo makes noises come from my GPU that I've never heard before


----------



## keikei

^I do like a good milkshake.


----------



## RagingCain

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PureBlackFire*
> 
> mantle brings all the boys to the yard:


"And my vendor, is better than yours. Better than yours. Better than yours. You could switch to green, but you'll be charged."


----------



## Offler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FastMHz*
> 
> That Star Swarm demo makes noises come from my GPU that I've never heard before


Let me guess. Coil whine (sort of beeping sound) during first screen with Oxide logo. Right?

Heard previously on Witcher 2, Crysis ... and many more ingame menus when FPS goes over 2000...


----------



## BigMack70

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *thelude*
> 
> 10% improvement from same GPU = FREE
> 10% improvement from 780ti from 780 = $150


#1) I nowhere said that 10% free performance is bad.
#2) I said that 10% performance boost is bad *given the hype that has led up to this*

There's a difference. And so few people make an upgrade from a 780 to a 780 ti that I consider such a point completely irrelevant. A 10% performance boost is not noticeable in gameplay unless you have FRAPS up.

This looks absolutely awesome for owners of midrange/low end/older CPUs or APUs, but more or less irrelevant for owners of high end, overclocked gaming PCs.


----------



## FastMHz

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Offler*
> 
> Let me guess. Coil whine (sort of beeping sound) during first screen with Oxide logo. Right?


That'd be it. Not even Furmark makes it that loud.


----------



## FastMHz

I'm making a spreadsheet and charts of my FX6350 (stock) and 7950 (OCed) in Star Swarm with D3D and then with Mantle whenever the driver comes along.


----------



## maarten12100

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FastMHz*
> 
> That Star Swarm demo makes noises come from my GPU that I've never heard before


Coil whine because it loads your gpu as never before...


----------



## Offler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *maarten12100*
> 
> Coil whine because it loads your gpu as never before...


Not really. I edited it later - the problem is also common in game menus (Witcher 2, Crysis). 2000 FPS or something like this makes on HD 79x0 coil whine... Thats why I try to avoid this with frame limiters or Vsync.


----------



## BinaryDemon

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *maarten12100*
> 
> but what about the Dice ones


Maybe I missed those, I want something that shows real FPS numbers not just % increase.


----------



## mircopolo

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Imouto*
> 
> I just noticed that we may be wrong about these CF times. If you go by both screenshots in the battlelog site you just can't get 116 FPS with GPU times of 14.02 ms.
> 
> *Test case 3: High-end single-player with multiple GPUs*
> 
> DX
> CPU 13.24 = 75 FPS
> GPU 18.38 / 2 = 9.19 ms = 109 FPS
> Screen showing 76 FPS = Massively CPU bottlenecked
> 
> Mantle
> CPU 8.38 = 119 FPS
> GPU 14.02 / 2 = 7.01 = 142 FPS
> Screen showing 116 FPS = Slightly CPU bottlenecked


My take on it is that those are are the average times it takes each component to draw a frame, so _in theory_ 142 should be the maximum FPS fr the cards, but because the CPU can draw a maximum of 119 FPS they are still not 100% utilized even with mantle?


----------



## SlackerITGuy

Just read that 14.1 will in fact have Mantle support for all desktop GCN GPUs!

Best news I've had all day, although they're making it seem like it will not be as optimized as with the R7/R9 cards.


----------



## keiths

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *incog*
> 
> 40,9% improvement for the 290X coupled with a 7700k ?
> 
> That's pretty big. I guess that if you have a low end processor coupled with a decent graphics card, Mantle is going to be very beneficial to you.
> 
> However, the 4960X coupled with the 290X also has 9-10% gains, which is nothing to scoff at.
> 
> These numbers seem quite realistic as well. So this is shaping up to turn out quite well, we'll have to see how 7850k crossfired with a 250 does. With Mantle the numbers could turn out to be interesting.
> 
> This is definitely going to get a little more oomph out of aging rigs that aren't totally obsolete yet. I have a Q6600 laying around with an HD 3450. I could easily buy a 260X or something equivalent and make the rig relevant for a longer period of time. I still need to overclock it though.


You didn't finish the qualifier; at 1080p. The future is 1080p?


----------



## Vagrant Storm

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Kuivamaa*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Vagrant Storm*
> 
> Whoa...I had no clue the DX11 crossfire performance was that bad. Though if a 7970 was pulling 53fps...wouldn't a single 290x get around 60fps? Then you add another 290x and you only get 18fps more?
> 
> 
> 
> The 53 you see is on a totally different system (FX-8350), in a totally different map (siege of shanghai) ,under different settings (no MSAA vs 4xMSAA) and on top of that it is MP and not single player. Apples to pineapples.
Click to expand...

yeah, but even just ignoring that and pretending that it doesn't matter...

Those numbers are still horrible for any system on any level in a crossfire setup. I've only played BF4 for a few hours and even on my sig rig I was averaging above 45fps, though I wasn't on ultra settings (but still fairly high) and we only did multiplayer. But still, to think that a crossfire setup of one of the best GPUs on the market didn't even double the fps I was getting is insane.

I don't think it can be explained in any way other than Crossfire was poorly implemented, or purposely hindered on DX11, or those numbers are just not correct. Any of the above does not reflect well on DICE.


----------



## ZealotKi11er

Can't wait for this when I get home.


----------



## rquinn19

Ive skimmed through but cant find any side by side in game pics. How do we know Mantle looks as good as DX11? If id doesnt then all these numbers mean squat.


----------



## keikei

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ZealotKi11er*
> 
> Can't wait for this when I get home.


Quote:


> In order to use Mantle you will need the following:
> -AMD Catalyst *14.1* Beta drivers. AMD will post them here.
> -AMD Radeon GPU with Graphics Core Next
> -64-bit Windows (7, 8 or 8.1)


----------



## Offler

https://twitter.com/AMDGaming/status/428958040046702592

We are putting the finishing touches on the AMD Catalyst™ 14.1 Beta driver, which enables support for Mantle. We appreciate your patience.

Translation:

Stop pressing F5 !!!


----------



## Azuredragon1

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Offler*
> 
> https://twitter.com/AMDGaming/status/428958040046702592
> 
> We are putting the finishing touches on the AMD Catalyst™ 14.1 Beta driver, which enables support for Mantle. We appreciate your patience.
> 
> Translation:
> 
> Stop pressing F5 !!!


Never!!!, All men keep on pressing F5, they will break soon!


----------



## sugarhell




----------



## LukaTCE

What's direct link to drivers ? for me it show beta 13.11 lol


----------



## lostsurfer

Can't wait much longer, I'm freaking out man...


----------



## opty165

Hey guys, Just popping in the thread to see whats going on. Can't wait to try this out later! I take it we're all arguing in here even before the new beta mantle drivers have dropped? I'm only making a guess as I find it a time waster to read through this entire thread based on the posts I've seen in the last couple pages....


----------



## ~kRon1k~

why doesn't AMD wait until they have actually completed something before advertising it? we were told by amd these fixes except mantle would have been released a YEAR or more ago. (frame pacing, eyefinity , crossfire) and a year later we are still waiting for something INCOMPLETE and BETA. I give up, AMD. my 2 780ti are on the way.


----------



## keikei

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *opty165*
> 
> Hey guys, Just popping in the thread to see whats going on. Can't wait to try this out later! I take it we're all arguing in here even before the new beta mantle drivers have dropped? I'm only making a guess as I find it a time waster to read through this entire thread based on the posts I've seen in the last couple pages....


I wouldnt say its a complete waste. Mantle has dropped, partially anyways. See here.


----------



## Hl86

If they just would use it in MMOs, where cpu is always the bottleneck


----------



## opty165

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *keikei*
> 
> I wouldnt say its a complete waste. Mantle has dropped, partially anyways. See here.


Thanks for the link. Looks pretty good in my opinion. Pretty much what I was expecting. It's going to be an interesting time for PC gaming!

On that note, I leave this thread. The trolling, and ignorance in here is making my head cold even worse now....


----------



## maarten12100

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *$ilent*
> 
> Oh WOW....10% improvement. Yeah thanks AMD, so glad I put up with all that crap trying to use your graphics card for 10% improvements...
> 
> ]


http://battlelog.battlefield.com/bf4/news/view/bf4-mantle-live/
Remain calm my son it is not too late to trade in that 670


----------



## ImJJames

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *$ilent*
> 
> Oh WOW....10% improvement. Yeah thanks AMD, so glad I put up with all that crap trying to use your graphics card for 10% improvements...


10% improvement is $100+ premium charge for Nvidia cards, you do realize that right?

This is free improvement...


----------



## Sadmoto

I can see why they added the bf4 patch before mantle, they re-broke the game, I don't think they want mantle to be seen like that.
That bf4 patch is a joke.
"oh yea, you get 10fps more, but now you get no sound, disconnects, longer loading times, messed up spawns, and much much more."

I think amd is learning from EA's bad habbits.


----------



## mltms

so now nvidia users cant play with 120mhz monitor in bf4 they are CPU-limited all time what ever cpu they buy even $1000 cpu cant help them


----------



## $ilent

Quote:


> Core i7-4960X CPU + R9 290X GPU
> 1080p, Ultra Preset, 4xAA: 9.2% improvement with Mantle
> 1600p, Ultra Preset, 4xAA: 10% improvement with Mantle
> 
> Core i7-4960X CPU + R7 260X GPU
> 1080p, Ultra Preset, 4xAA: 2.7% improvement
> 1600p, Ultra Preset, 4xAA: 1.4% improvement
> 
> A10-7700K CPU + R9 290X GPU
> *1080p, Ultra Preset, 4xAA: 40.9% improvement*
> 1600p, Ultra Preset, 4xAA: 17.3% improvement
> 
> A10-7700K CPU + R7 260X GPU
> 1080p, Ultra Preset, 4xAA: 8.3% improvement
> 1600p, Low Preset: 16.8% improvement


Could someone explain to me why on Earth anyone would have a r9 290X that costs a fortune and be running it alongside a AMD 7700K cpu? These mantle results are a joke, and to be honest they are probably inflated by AMD so the real world improvements will likely be even less. So much for the "yeah 50% free performance increase" claims...I guess that would apply if you're still using and AMD Athlon 64 X2 cpu with your r9 290x graphics cards









Quote:


> Originally Posted by *maarten12100*
> 
> http://battlelog.battlefield.com/bf4/news/view/bf4-mantle-live/
> Remain calm my son it is not too late to trade in that 670


Lol good one, im never going with AMD again for a gpu. I had both 290x and 290 and they both sucked for battlefield 4. My gtx 670 plays it just as good as they both did and it doesnt sound like a hairdryer either when im playing it.


----------



## ImJJames

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Sadmoto*
> 
> I can see why they added the bf4 patch before mantle, they re-broke the game, I don't think they want mantle to be seen like that.
> That bf4 patch is a joke.
> "oh yea, you get 10fps more, but now you get no sound, disconnects, longer loading times, messed up spawns, and much much more."
> 
> I think amd is learning from EA's bad habbits.


Same the 1.2gb patch disabled my sound, Dice is such a failure. I'm glad AMD was smart enough to not release the driver before the patch or else Mantle would of gotten all the blame for this epic patch failure on DICE part.


----------



## BigMack70

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *$ilent*
> 
> Oh WOW....10% improvement. Yeah thanks AMD, so glad I put up with all that crap trying to use your graphics card for 10% improvements...


Yeah, Mantle doesn't look like it will mean much for people with high end rigs. Still, we need some actual independent benchies to verify.

And to everyone saying "but 10% improvement costs $100!!!!!!!111!1" ..... That is true for both AMD and Nvidia, and almost nobody spends money to make that kind of upgrade; it's an irrelevant point









Right now this looks like an overhyped "product"


----------



## Newbie2009

Hands up if you're stalking Asder on twitter right now


----------



## bencher

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ImJJames*
> 
> Same the 1.2gb patch disabled my sound, Dice is such a failure. I'm glad AMD was smart enough to not release the driver before the patch or else Mantle would of gotten all the blame for this epic patch failure on DICE part.


Now I think I wont install this yet.


----------



## ImJJames

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *$ilent*
> 
> Lol good one, im never going with AMD again for a gpu. I had both 290x and 290 and they both sucked for battlefield 4. My gtx 670 plays it just as good as they both did and it doesnt sound like a hairdryer either when im playing it.


I'm 100% sure your GTX 670 can't average 120FPS on 64 man server w/ ULTRA MAX Graphics


----------



## maarten12100

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *$ilent*
> 
> Could someone explain to me why on Earth anyone would have a r9 290X that costs a fortune and be running it alongside a AMD 7700K cpu? These mantle results are a joke, and to be honest they are probably inflated by AMD so the real world improvements will likely be even less. So much for the "yeah 50% free performance increase" claims...I guess that would apply if you're still using and AMD Athlon 64 X2 cpu with your r9 290x graphics cards
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lol good one, im never going with AMD again for a gpu. I had both 290x and 290 and they both sucked for battlefield 4. My gtx 670 plays it just as good as they both did and it doesnt sound like a hairdryer either when im playing it.


AMD stated "up to" 45% just that you read some dumb tech writter's post doesn't make it a 45% continues fact.

Anyhow http://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/AMD/R9_290/26.html
I had 2 R9 290's and they are immensely powerful but it was a shame I had to return them for I didn't get my promised BF4


----------



## bencher

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ImJJames*
> 
> I'm 100% sure your GTX 670 can't average 120FPS on 64 man server w/ ULTRA MAX Graphics


He is probably not playing on max setting.


----------



## dir_d

What is wrong with some of you. If you love NVIDIA and Intel and feel this is crap then just ignore the thread. The fact that this will at least provide some sort of performance for nothing is good to me. Its getting really old that the same people come into these discussions and just complain to complain. Once again if you don't like AMD, think they are a sham, go get Intel and NVIDIA hardware and go about your business.


----------



## Tehrawk

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bencher*
> 
> He is probably not playing on max setting.


You definitely didn't take 5 seconds out of your time to watch the start of the video.


----------



## bencher

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Tehrawk*
> 
> You definitely didn't take 5 seconds out of your time to watch the start of the video.


No not that youtube video. The previous poster.


----------



## kzone75

I'm amazed..


----------



## $ilent

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ImJJames*
> 
> I'm 100% sure your GTX 670 can't average 120FPS on 64 man server w/ ULTRA MAX Graphics


Depends what resolution I guess. At 1440p I run ultra preset but no AA and get:

Min, Max, Avg
40, 63, 58.803


----------



## BigMack70

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PostalTwinkie*
> 
> The problem is many of us were hugely excited for Mantle, and what AMD has been squawking about for months now. It is finally "released", but with more cherry picked numbers by AMD and DICE. They haven't released the drivers for us to even use it ourselves, and even decide to tell us "Oh, and it is still beta!"
> 
> Really?
> 
> How can something be considered "released" when the drivers for your consumers to use it aren't even released? I don't think it is a bit of a stretch to see disappointment in that.
> 
> It is like giving your kids their Christmas present in the morning on Christmas, but then telling them they can't open it until a "later date".


Yeah, I don't understand how being disappointed with this makes you an automatic Nvidia fanboy. I like both AMD and Nvidia for different reasons, and I was really excited to see what would happen with Mantle. I have a hard time reading this as anything other than over-promising and under-delivering. Maybe I just listened to the AMD fanboys too much in the previous months, but I was really expecting this to be a 290X trump card and instead it looks more like an APU trump card for low end gaming.

That said, it's still early days and we don't yet have independent reviews. Though to be honest, I expect most reviews will wimp out and not test 64 man multiplayer, giving the standard excuses of _"but it's not a controlled environment wahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh"_


----------



## Tehrawk

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bencher*
> 
> No not that youtube video. The previous poster.


Oh right, I see. Wasn't very clear you meant it that way.

To see any sort of improvement in Battlefield 4. A game which has all ready been programmed to the constraints of DirectX. Is fantastic. This is just the beginning though. Once we start seeing games take advantage of the opportunities that Mantle presents, from the ground up. Whether that be from Mantle itself, or just forcing the hands of OpenGL and DirectX to get their respective arses in gear. We are going to see a huge leap forward in the industry.


----------



## dir_d

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PostalTwinkie*
> 
> The problem is many of us were hugely excited for Mantle, and what AMD has been squawking about for months now. It is finally "released", but with more cherry picked numbers by AMD and DICE. They haven't released the drivers for us to even use it ourselves, and even decide to tell us "Oh, and it is still beta!"
> 
> Really?
> 
> How can something be considered "released" when the drivers for your consumers to use it aren't even released? I don't think it is a bit of a stretch to see disappointment in that.
> 
> It is like giving your kids their Christmas present in the morning on Christmas, but then telling them they can't open it until a "later date".
> 
> EDIT: Not to mention other users have already found questionable math in their released numbers, so far no one has been able to explain.


I think AMD has been pretty forthcoming, DICE on the other hand is cherry picking but you knew this was going to happen. Marketing aka Hype is the backbone of a company. Take it for what it is or just drop AMD completely. You have already chose the latter so why complain and beat a dead horse?


----------



## Kuivamaa

Cherry picking? They even provided a case scenario where you don't see much improvement (intel extreme+R7 260X). All in all they gave a rough idea of what to expect on a wide array of setups.


----------



## $ilent

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ImJJames*
> 
> I'm 100% sure your GTX 670 can't average 120FPS on 64 man server w/ ULTRA MAX Graphics


And with 2x AA, ULTRA preset, 1440p, 64 man server:

Frames, Time (ms), Min, Max, Avg
16588, 300000, 38, 62, 55.293

So yes...to answer your question if I had 2x gtx 670, I could get 120 fps on bf4 ultra. In fact I reckon I could get pretty close if I was running a 1080p monitor like he is.


----------



## rquinn19

whats with all the hate and calling someone a fanboy just for posting in this NEWS thread and havind NV cards. I saw one obvious troll. The rest of us NV owners can be intetested for any variety of reasons. If mantle ends up being a winner its a win for everyone. I have no brand allegiance. I had a 290 but it was just too noisy, especially with my case.

All the negative remarks about NV owners commenting sounds as bad as the one troll everyone shouldve ignored by now


----------



## damric

Mantle has extended my epeen by 45% when talking about Mantle.


----------



## KyadCK

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *$ilent*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *ImJJames*
> 
> I'm 100% sure your GTX 670 can't average 120FPS on 64 man server w/ ULTRA MAX Graphics
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And with 2x AA, ULTRA preset, 1440p, 64 man server:
> 
> Frames, Time (ms), Min, Max, Avg
> 16588, 300000, 38, 62, 55.293
> 
> So yes...to answer your question if I had 2x gtx 670, *I could get 120 fps on bf4 ultra***. In fact I reckon I could get pretty close if I was running a 1080p monitor like he is.
Click to expand...

** Assuming you don't hit a CPU bottleneck. This is BF4 after all.

Also nVidia's SLI scaling isn't good enough to go from 62 to 120. Just saying.


----------



## PostalTwinkie

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *dir_d*
> 
> I think AMD has been pretty forthcoming, DICE on the other hand is cherry picking but you knew this was going to happen. Marketing aka Hype is the backbone of a company. Take it for what it is or just drop AMD completely. You have already chose the latter so why complain and beat a dead horse?


Because I can't run fast enough to chase a live horse and beat it. Duh.........
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Kuivamaa*
> 
> Cherry picking? They even provided a case scenario where you don't see much improvement (intel extreme+R7 260X). All in all they gave a rough idea of what to expect on a wide array of setups.


You show me ONE person on this planet that runs an Extreme series Intel processor but only pairs it with a 260X! Come on now, use your brain a little! How insane do they think WE are for us to even bite on that use case?

_"Let's take one of the most expensive consumer processors on the market, and pair it with a cheap low end card! They will believe that!"_

It was insulting to see it.


----------



## $ilent

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *KyadCK*
> 
> ** Assuming you don't hit a CPU bottleneck. This is BF4 after all.
> 
> Also nVidia's SLI scaling isn't good enough to go from 62 to 120. Just saying.


But what about upcomming nvidia drivers? They promise huge BF4 improvements...surely they arent lying just to make me buy an nvidia gpu.

end joke.

My gpu is at 1293 for core/3705 for memory, not sure if it can get any higher!


----------



## KyadCK

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *$ilent*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *KyadCK*
> 
> ** Assuming you don't hit a CPU bottleneck. This is BF4 after all.
> 
> Also nVidia's SLI scaling isn't good enough to go from 62 to 120. Just saying.
> 
> 
> 
> But what about upcomming nvidia drivers? They promise huge BF4 improvements...surely they arent lying just to make me buy an nvidia gpu.
Click to expand...

Alright, nVidia driver improvements could get it high enough on the GPU side of things I guess, but there's still that CPU in the way. Mantle is more or less a CPU helper, not a GPU one.


----------



## bencher

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PostalTwinkie*
> 
> You show me ONE person on this planet that runs an Extreme series Intel processor but only pairs it with a 260X! Come on now, use your brain a little! How insane do they think WE are for us to even bite on that use case?
> 
> _"Let's take one of the most expensive consumer processors on the market, and pair it with a cheap low end card! They will believe that!"_
> 
> It was insulting to see it.


it seems you need someone to break it down.

That test simple proves that without a cpu bottleneck there is little to no performance to be had.

LOL seriously....


----------



## $ilent

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *KyadCK*
> 
> Alright, nVidia driver improvements could get it high enough on the GPU side of things I guess, but there's still that CPU in the way. Mantle is more or less a CPU helper, not a GPU one.


It was a joke, im implying AMD fabricated early reports about mantle just to make people buy their gpus.


----------



## sugarhell

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PostalTwinkie*
> 
> Actually this brings up a very good point......
> 
> Why weren't they already in the driver pack? Mantle has been delayed several times now already, how come this still isn't done? What has AMD and their driver team been doing all this time? I find it laughable that after so many delays, they still aren't ready, yet patch it anyways.
> Because I can't run fast enough to chase a live horse and beat it. Duh.........
> You show me ONE person on this planet that runs an Extreme series Intel processor but only pairs it with a 260X! Come on now, use your brain a little! How insane do they think WE are for us to even bite on that use case?
> 
> _"Let's take one of the most expensive consumer processors on the market, and pair it with a cheap low end card! They will believe that!"_
> 
> It was insulting to see it.


This is a beta. The sdk will gonna release in Q2. I dont know why you expect something else. Its was already clear from the start. Also this is the first update with mantle on bf4.

Mantle is not ready yet,bf4 mantle support is a beta.Dont forget the 14.1 is huge. Framepacing for multimonitors ,for dual graphics + mantle probably they didint want to release them all together at least what we got from the earlier info. But now they will gonna release it today or tomorrow.

Also you have a 3960x with a 290x. They present a cpu limited situation and a gpu limited situation. How this is insulting

You criticize mantle as it should be a complete feature. When the sdk isnt even ready yet.


----------



## PostalTwinkie

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *KyadCK*
> 
> Alright, nVidia driver improvements could get it high enough on the GPU side of things I guess, but there's still that CPU in the way. Mantle is more or less a CPU helper, not a GPU one.


Which is good for people in situations of not having a system that can perform at a high level.

For those of us with systems without that concern, we individually will have to make the decision of....

1) The currently questionable gains from Mantle with AMD GPUs.

or

2) Nvidia and G-Sync; which has been highly praised as a game changer by independent 3rd parties.

Obviously we will all want to wait for the actual Mantle drivers from AMD to actually be released, and 3rd party results before deciding.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *sugarhell*
> 
> This is a beta. The sdk will gonna release in Q2. I dont know why you expect something else. Its was already clear from the start. Also this is the first update with mantle on bf4.
> 
> Mantle is not ready yet,bf4 mantle support is a beta.Dont forget the 14.1 is huge. Framepacing for multimonitors ,for dual graphics + mantle probably they didint want to release them all together at least what we got from the earlier info. But now they will gonna release it today or tomorrow.
> 
> Also you have a 3960x with a 290x. They present a cpu limited situation and a gpu limited situation. How this is insulting
> 
> You criticize mantle as it should be a complete feature. When the sdk isnt even ready yet.


I have followed Mantle from its first announcement back in September. I don't ever recall AMD or DICE stating that the Mantle patch was going to be a beta patch when it came out, especially not after several months of delays.

Find me a quote stating Mantle would be an incomplete beta release, prior to today! I eagerly await your reply and source of them stating, prior to today, it would be an incomplete beta patch.

EDIT: I also welcome the announcement, prior to today, that they would patch Mantle into the game but not have the drivers available.


----------



## Seid Dark

This is great news for us 120/144Hz gamers







I've been bottlenecked by CPU especially in multiplayer games, it's difficult to have constant 120fps without any drops. Too bad I've Nvidia card, it will never get Mantle support.


----------



## Fniz92

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *$ilent*
> 
> It was a joke, im implying AMD fabricated early reports about mantle just to make people buy their gpus.


Sounds like you're making it like AMD forced a gun to people's head to buy their GPU's.


----------



## Kuivamaa

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PostalTwinkie*
> 
> _"Let's take one of the most expensive consumer processors on the market, and pair it with a cheap low end card! They will believe that!"_
> 
> It was insulting to see it.


What are you talking about? Really? Of course you will test this and you will also test an APU paired with a 290X when you want to provide a wide array, it is new tech, you need to see the whole range and cover all bases. The very fact that they provided both extremes (weak cpu+strong gpu and strong cpu+weak gpu) shows they didn't cherry pick.


----------



## djriful

Its all good to see more computer would be able to run games decently with the help of Mantle API. Myself here still stuck at 60Hz monitor, there is no point for me to keep gaining more than 60FPS. Adaptive V-Sync is my fav so far and maybe G-Sync if I have the hardware for it.


----------



## PostalTwinkie

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *djriful*
> 
> Its all good to see more computer would be able to run games decently with the help of Mantle API. Myself here still stuck at 60Hz monitor, there is no point for me to keep gaining more than 60FPS. Adaptive V-Sync is my fav so far and maybe G-Sync if I have the hardware for it.


Don't you have the 3930K and Titan in your sig?


----------



## thebski

It's pretty easy to get a good idea of where gains will and will not be had. If you're highly CPU bound, you're likely to be seeing big gains. That means for anyone running crossfire and 1080P, you're likely to see good gains regardless of CPU.

I don't think they showed the Extreme Edition 270X combo as a realistic setup for what people will run. They were just demonstrating various degrees of CPU/GPU power ratios and how they were effected. Extrapolate that out to your setup.

I'm pretty excited even though it doesn't apply to me. In a couple months I'm probably going to highly regret not buying some AMD cards, especially where I attempt to run a constant 120 Hz 5760x1080. My setup now does it just fine but settings are turned down. Only thing I wish I could run and still maintain 120 FPS is 2x MSAA, but it just won't do it.

Edit: Just realized that some scenarios were single player and some multiplayer. I thought the 55% gain was multiplayer and not single player. Will reserve judgement until we see real results. Single player is irrelevant.


----------



## Slomo4shO

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *$ilent*
> 
> Could someone explain to me why on Earth anyone would have a r9 290X that costs a fortune and be running it alongside a AMD 7700K cpu?


Why wouldn't you if you are not playing a game that is CPU bound and would like to obtain the best possible graphics performance? If the budget for the CPU and GPU is fixed, it makes sense to pickup a cheaper CPU so a more expensive GPU can be picked up in such scenarios...


----------



## quakermaas

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Imouto*
> 
> I just noticed that we may be wrong about these CF times. If you go by both screenshots in the battlelog site you just can't get 116 FPS with GPU times of 14.02 ms.
> 
> *Test case 3: High-end single-player with multiple GPUs*
> 
> DX
> CPU 13.24 = 75 FPS
> GPU 18.38 / 2 = 9.19 ms = 109 FPS
> Screen showing 76 FPS = Massively CPU bottlenecked
> 
> Mantle
> CPU 8.38 = 119 FPS
> GPU 14.02 / 2 = 7.01 = 142 FPS
> Screen showing 116 FPS = Slightly CPU bottlenecked


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RagingCain*
> 
> Well you did catch an error, they both can't be right, even with overhead.
> 
> Best bet is to wait for more info/3rd party testing from PCPer, hardwareCanucks, Guru, Anandtech et all.


I think I heard a few months ago in one of the talks on mantle, that, with CF mantle see's two GPU's as one graphic card.

They show the GPU at 14.02 ms but that is two cards/two frames ? so it would be 7.01ms per frame, would that work ?


----------



## maarten12100

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PostalTwinkie*
> 
> 2) Nvidia and G-Sync; which has been highly praised as a game changer by independent 3rd parties.


You know that Gsync will only help a slow frame and therefore doesn't do much if you're running super high framerate.

It is hard to miss the 16ms deadline when a frame is completed in 10ms in other words a maximum frame time of 18ms would yield the same experience as Gsync.


----------



## PostalTwinkie

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Slomo4shO*
> 
> Why wouldn't you if you are not playing a game that is CPU bound and would like to obtain the best possible graphics performance? If the budget for the CPU and GPU is fixed, it makes sense to pickup a cheaper CPU so a more expensive GPU can be picked up in such scenarios...
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!


I like that chart...

4 FPS difference between a $150 processor and a $1050 processor on a 290X with Direct X 11.


----------



## KyadCK

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *$ilent*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *KyadCK*
> 
> Alright, nVidia driver improvements could get it high enough on the GPU side of things I guess, but there's still that CPU in the way. Mantle is more or less a CPU helper, not a GPU one.
> 
> 
> 
> It was a joke, im implying AMD fabricated early reports about mantle just to make people buy their gpus.
Click to expand...

Ya, well, I wouldn't know, I honestly don't spend time with much of nVidia anything besides G-Sync.









And "Fabricated" means "Lied", "Untrue", "Made Up", etc. Their numbers were not untrue, they just didn't give the hardware required to see it. If you assumed 45% was with top-end hardware, that's your problem. I've been saying for a while now that Mantle would be a CPU booster and was right, so I'm not surprised at all.

As for them using it to "make" people buy AMD GPUs... this only works with AMD GPUs. So... Still not misleading.


----------



## sugarhell

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PostalTwinkie*
> 
> Which is good for people in situations of not having a system that can perform at a high level.
> 
> For those of us with systems without that concern, we individually will have to make the decision of....
> 
> 1) The currently questionable gains from Mantle with AMD GPUs.
> 
> or
> 
> 2) Nvidia and G-Sync; which has been highly praised as a game changer by independent 3rd parties.
> 
> Obviously we will all want to wait for the actual Mantle drivers from AMD to actually be released, and 3rd party results before deciding.
> I have followed Mantle from its first announcement back in September. I don't ever recall AMD or DICE stating that the Mantle patch was going to be a beta patch when it came out, especially not after several months of delays.
> 
> Find me a quote stating Mantle would be an incomplete beta release, prior to today! I eagerly await your reply and source of them stating, prior to today, it would be an incomplete beta patch.
> 
> EDIT: I also welcome the announcement, prior to today, that they would patch Mantle into the game but not have the drivers available.


If you check APU13 keynotes they say that the sdk will be ready late Q2

Also from Johan.

This update is the first release of our new Mantle renderer, and we will continue to provide more tuning for different types of configurations in future updates. Still, we are really happy with the performance improvements that we are seeing with this update and we believe you will be as well.

https://twitter.com/repi/status/428848012987990016

Johan Andersson ‏@repi 10h
@FrostbiteEngine @vithren @AMD our first focus w/ #Mantle was perf, but it also more programmability which we'll use for future adv features


----------



## Fniz92

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PostalTwinkie*
> 
> I like that chart...
> 
> 4 FPS difference between a $150 processor and a $1050 processor on a 290X with Direct X 11.


Which is exactly the point.
Singleplayer = GPU bound
Multiplayer = CPU bound

Now any mantle performance numbers on singleplayer is irrelevant imo.


----------



## PostalTwinkie

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *sugarhell*
> 
> If you check APU13 keynotes they say that the sdk will be ready late Q2
> 
> Also from Johan.
> 
> This update is the first release of our new Mantle renderer, and we will continue to provide more tuning for different types of configurations in future updates. Still, we are really happy with the performance improvements that we are seeing with this update and we believe you will be as well.
> 
> https://twitter.com/repi/status/428848012987990016
> 
> Johan Andersson ‏@repi 10h
> @FrostbiteEngine @vithren @AMD our first focus w/ #Mantle was perf, but it also more programmability which we'll use for future adv features


Cool, a post from today.....

So how about the one prior to today that says it would be an incomplete beta, without drivers for it on release? I will keep waiting....

Also, the 55% gain that everyone is raging about, for being so awesome, was in single player, at 1080P, with two 290x...thought I would point that out.


----------



## $ilent

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Slomo4shO*
> 
> Why wouldn't you if you are not playing a game that is CPU bound and would like to obtain the best possible graphics performance? If the budget for the CPU and GPU is fixed, it makes sense to pickup a cheaper CPU so a more expensive GPU can be picked up in such scenarios...


I would love to see a chart like that now for multiplayer.


----------



## PostalTwinkie

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *$ilent*
> 
> I would love to see a chart like that now for multiplayer.


I bet we will with the 3rd party Mantle reviews.


----------



## Imouto

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *quakermaas*
> 
> I think I heard a few months ago in one of the talks on mantle, that, with CF mantle see's two GPU's as one graphic card.
> 
> They show the GPU at 14.02 ms but that is two cards/two frames ? so it would be 7.01ms per frame, would that work ?


Actually Repi answered my tweet telling me that those are frame times for each GPU that overlap because of AFR. So you can safely divide them by the amount of your GPUs to get your graphics performance and tell where the bottleneck is.


----------



## sugarhell

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PostalTwinkie*
> 
> Cool, a post from today.....
> 
> So how about the one prior to today that says it would be an incomplete beta, without drivers for it on release? I will keep waiting....
> 
> Also, the 55% gain that everyone is raging about, for being so awesome, was in single player...thought I would point that out.


I dont know why you are so butthurt? You have to wait 1 WHOLE SINGLE DAY the most. Its not even a delay amd is based on US and dice on eu. Ofc they have different time when they release drivers.

Incomplete beta? Just wait for the drivers. You can stay here posting all the time how amd destroyed your life by delaying the drivers for a whole day. No they didint. You are impatient and its boring because you post the same silly thing over and over. Okay they delayed for some hours the drivers. Nothing compared the delay from december to january. But no you cant WAIT


----------



## skupples

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Stormscion*
> 
> nvidia just have to make driver for it
> 
> if they want that is


Good luck getting Nvidia to do that. I guess it is *possible* that some out side source will mod the open source nvidia *LINUX* drivers to support mantle... Chances of this? Unlikely, chances Nvidia adapts mantle? unlikely, unless the gains are truly so profound they can't ignore it. We currently only have canned bench marks, with strange parings like 1,000$ cpu's with 100$ GPU's.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *BradleyW*
> 
> This shows even the x79 platform can be bottlenecked by certain applications.


indeed, easily in some situations, specially when games are only using one or two cores. (not the case in bf4)


----------



## RagingCain

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *quakermaas*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Imouto*
> 
> I just noticed that we may be wrong about these CF times. If you go by both screenshots in the battlelog site you just can't get 116 FPS with GPU times of 14.02 ms.
> 
> *Test case 3: High-end single-player with multiple GPUs*
> 
> DX
> 
> CPU 13.24 = 75 FPS
> 
> GPU 18.38 / 2 = 9.19 ms = 109 FPS
> 
> Screen showing 76 FPS = Massively CPU bottlenecked
> 
> Mantle
> 
> CPU 8.38 = 119 FPS
> 
> GPU 14.02 / 2 = 7.01 = 142 FPS
> 
> Screen showing 116 FPS = Slightly CPU bottlenecked
> 
> 
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *RagingCain*
> 
> Well you did catch an error, they both can't be right, even with overhead.
> 
> Best bet is to wait for more info/3rd party testing from PCPer, hardwareCanucks, Guru, Anandtech et all.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I think I heard a few months ago in one of the talks on mantle, that, with CF mantle see's two GPU's as one graphic card.
> 
> They show the GPU at 14.02 ms but that is two cards/two frames ? so it would be 7.01ms per frame, would that work ?
Click to expand...

No, the 7.01ms avg means ~ 142 FPS average.
The 14.02ms avg means ~ 71 FPS average. neither are what is reported of 116.

So a mistake was made somewhere, either fat finger calculator, or fat finger keyboard, brain freeze, or lying.

Like I said, we need some trusty sources to pull the numbers. Don't trust anything from Dice or AMD right now. Who knows, it maybe (highly unlikely) be better than quoted from AMD as the others can fine tune there systems better than game devs.


----------



## Fniz92

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *sugarhell*
> 
> I dont know why you are so butthurt? You have to wait 1 WHOLE SINGLE DAY the most. Its not even a delay amd is based on US and dice on eu. Ofc they have different time when they release drivers.
> 
> Incomplete beta? Just wait for the drivers. You can stay here posting all the time how amd destroyed your life by delaying the drivers for a whole day. No they didint. You are impatient and its boring because you post the same silly thing over and over. Okay they delayed for some hours the drivers. Nothing compared the delay from december to january. But no you cant WAIT


He just want to find an excuse to sell his 7970's and go green.


----------



## $ilent

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PostalTwinkie*
> 
> I bet we will with the 3rd party Mantle reviews.


And I bet that there is no way in hell a i3 3220 dual core cpu gets similar performance to a 3770k on multiplayer...because if it does ill downgrade.


----------



## Newbie2009

AMD sucks for not releasing it now.
AMD releases it now AMD sucks because it does not take into account people who cannot install a driver.

Mantle sucks because it's not made by Nvidia.

Good summary of the thread?


----------



## sugarhell

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Fniz92*
> 
> He just want to find an excuse to sell his 7970's and go green.


He is not a fanboy but his logic on this subject is way too wrong. Its a short delay to have support for all gcn cards.I think i prefer it compared to get only support for 290. Its not like i will die if i get mantle tomorrow


----------



## IloveShoes

Dont know if this have been posted yet in this thread:

https://www.facebook.com/AMDGaming/posts/592679814137843?stream_ref=10

It seems there was a mistake in the information in the EA / DICE blog, the catalyst 14.11 will enable Mantle for all GCN based cards.


----------



## Clukos

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Newbie2009*
> 
> AMD sucks for not releasing it now.
> AMD releases it now AMD sucks because it does not take into account people who cannot install a driver.
> 
> Mantle sucks because it's not made by Nvidia.
> 
> Good summary of the thread?


Also something something Nvidia, and Titan.


----------



## skupples

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Newbie2009*
> 
> AMD sucks for not releasing it now.
> AMD releases it now AMD sucks because it does not take into account people who cannot install a driver.
> 
> Mantle sucks because it's not made by Nvidia.
> 
> Good summary of the thread?


no, not really.

It's good practice to ignore/skip over the ignorant posters throwing tantrums because they get the tingling feeling in the e-peen
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Clukos*
> 
> Also something something Nvidia, and Titan.


I own three titans, yet do don't conform to your analysis of "nvidia fan boy" posters. Just thought I would drop that line.

People seem so hell bent on turning every thread into a QQ bash. It comes from both sides of the line, & serves no purpose. Some one posts bashing mantle, some one then posts a response bashing them for bashing mantle, some one else posts bashing both of them for bashing amd & mantle, some one else then posts with the quintessential "gawd nvidia fanboy, something something nvidia, & titan" get your heads out of the gutter, & focus on what is actually happening in the thread for once. Ignore the cry babies, & pay attention to the facts

Brand loyalty is a detriment to the person holding it. DX11 is a shriveled up old hag, which needs to be put down. MANTLE is the first attempt @ doing so in a long time. Every person who owns a GPU should be supporting it, & AMD.


----------



## Clukos

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *IloveShoes*
> 
> Dont know if this have been posted yet in this thread:
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/AMDGaming/posts/592679814137843?stream_ref=10
> 
> It seems there was a mistake in the information in the EA / DICE blog, the catalyst 14.11 will enable Mantle for all GCN based cards.


Oh man that is great news. Can't wait to try it out!


----------



## Imouto

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RagingCain*
> 
> No, the 7.01ms avg means ~ 142 FPS average.
> The 14.02ms avg means ~ 71 FPS average. neither are what is reported of 116.
> 
> So a mistake was made somewhere, either fat finger calculator, or fat finger keyboard, brain freeze, or lying.
> 
> Like I said, we need some trusty sources to pull the numbers. Don't trust anything from Dice or AMD right now. Who knows, it maybe (highly unlikely) be better than quoted from AMD as the others can fine tune there systems better than game devs.


You're getting it wrong, your FPS can't be faster than your CPU times or GPU times. In that screenshot it's shown as CPU bottlenecked with 8.38 ms (119 FPS) average, pretty close to the 116 FPS reported.


----------



## $ilent

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Newbie2009*
> 
> AMD sucks for not releasing it now.
> AMD releases it now AMD sucks because it does not take into account people who cannot install a driver.
> 
> Mantle sucks because it's not made by Nvidia.
> 
> Good summary of the thread?


Im not trying to stir up trouble, but you gotta admit AMD are taking the mickey out of us here.

First they say r9 290x will beat gtx 780, and sometimes it did HOWEVER it ran so stupidly hot and loud that it had to underclcok itself.

Then they release awful driver after driver, what was it like 12 times they update the 13.xx drivers and they still sucked.

Afterwards AMD takes forever to release aftermarket gpus just to make it so they dont underclock themselfs all the damm time.

Now they release mantle, after initially claiming HUGE improvements in graphics performance, and all I see is singleplayer results that are totally irrelevant. Contrary to what people on here might claim, nobody and I mean NOBODY on this forum runs a r9 290x with a cheap AMD cpu such as a 7700K or a cheap intel dual core cpu. So why pre tell would AMD release mantle, and only show us singleplayer results and useless benchmarks with ridiculously mismatched components that nobody uses?

it seems pretty obvious to me: The multiplayer improvements are going to be none existent for the vast majority of people.

How do I know this? Because this is AMD and they do this everytime (fabricate results or just plain lie and get everyone;s hopes up).


----------



## Slomo4shO

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PostalTwinkie*
> 
> I like that chart...
> 
> 4 FPS difference between a $150 processor and a $1050 processor on a 290X with Direct X 11.


Such is the case for BF4. Bit-tech concluded the following:
Quote:


> it's safe to say that you're GPU will limit you before your CPU does.




Feel free to provide any data suggesting otherwise...

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *$ilent*
> 
> I would love to see a chart like that now for multiplayer.


If you find one, let me know


----------



## PostalTwinkie

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *sugarhell*
> 
> I dont know why you are so butthurt? You have to wait 1 WHOLE SINGLE DAY the most. Its not even a delay amd is based on US and dice on eu. Ofc they have different time when they release drivers.
> 
> Incomplete beta? Just wait for the drivers. You can stay here posting all the time how amd destroyed your life by delaying the drivers for a whole day. No they didint. You are impatient and its boring because you post the same silly thing over and over. Okay they delayed for some hours the drivers. Nothing compared the delay from december to january. But no you cant WAIT


Now you are side stepping....

You stated that we were told this would be a beta, and I said otherwise. I asked you for evidence showing that we should have expected an incomplete beta release on such a hyped product. You aren't able to provide that evidence because AMD and DICE never game that information. If anything they hyped this to be a full release when it was released!

There is no hurt here, I am simply stating the facts of the matter, which you and many other seem to be ignoring. If you want to engage in a conversation that refutes what I have stated, provide the evidence and source. That is all I asked of you, to back up the sentiment that we should have known it was an incomplete beta. So I state my side of it again....

I have followed Mantle from announcement, and at no point did AMD or DICE state this was going to be an incomplete beta release. I came here expecting a fledged system, they have been working on it for years now, and what we get is an incomplete beta. Had they told us ahead of time that was the case, sure, I would be fine with that aspect of it. But frankly AMD and DICE have been shady about this entire thing from the start.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Fniz92*
> 
> He just want to find an excuse to sell his 7970's and go green.


I don't need an excuse to do anything; but that comes with being successful in life. If I hadn't held hope for AMD and their platform I would have gone back to Nvidia a long time ago.

Odds are I have had more computer hardware in my hands in the last couple of years than most people have in their lives. There are only a couple of people on this forum that I know have gone through more hardware than I have.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Newbie2009*
> 
> AMD sucks for not releasing it now.
> AMD releases it now AMD sucks because it does not take into account people who cannot install a driver.
> 
> Mantle sucks because it's not made by Nvidia.
> 
> Good summary of the thread?


Nope...

That first point would be true if AMD actually released drivers for us to install.....

In case you missed it, they patched the game, but haven't released the drivers for public consumption. Instead releasing more in-house numbers for people to discuss.


----------



## Kuivamaa

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *skupples*
> 
> What I can't figure out is why the 3970x is seeing 58%, but 4960x is only seeing single digit increases... Does AMD natively support Gen 3.0 on Sandy bridge?


You are probably refering to 49x0 paired with a 260X that sees like 2% performance increase-the sandy extreme is paired with 2x290X-quite different case, you'll agree.


----------



## Fniz92

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *sugarhell*
> 
> He is not a fanboy but his logic on this subject is way too wrong. Its a short delay to have support for all gcn cards.I think i prefer it compared to get only support for 290. Its not like i will die if i get mantle tomorrow


I'm not saying that mate, but his last post regarding mantle showing 58 % in crossfire when he himself owns that setup made me realise he just wanted mantle to fail so he could grab a green card for g-sync.

I mean why would he post this when he owns CF 7970, would he not wish for higher gains for his setup?

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PostalTwinkie*
> 
> Also, the 55% gain that everyone is raging about, for being so awesome, was in single player, at 1080P, with two 290x...thought I would point that out.


----------



## Artev

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *$ilent*
> 
> Im not trying to stir up trouble, but you gotta admit AMD are taking the mickey out of us here.
> 
> First they say r9 290x will beat gtx 780, and sometimes it did HOWEVER it ran so stupidly hot and loud that it had to underclcok itself.
> 
> Then they release awful driver after driver, what was it like 12 times they update the 13.xx drivers and they still sucked.
> 
> Afterwards AMD takes forever to release aftermarket gpus just to make it so they dont underclock themselfs all the damm time.
> 
> Now they release mantle, after initially claiming HUGE improvements in graphics performance, and all I see is singleplayer results all but one that are irelevant. Contrary to what people on here might claim, nobody and I mean NOBODY on this forum runs a r9 290x with a cheap AMD cpu such as a 7700K or a cheap intel dual core cpu. So why pre tell would AMD release mantle, and only show us singleplayer results and useless benchmarks with ridiculously mismatched components that nobody uses?
> 
> it seems pretty obvious to me: The multiplayer improvements are going to be none existent for the vast majority of people.
> 
> How do I know this? Because this is AMD and they do this everytime (fabricate results or just plain lie and get everyone;s hopes up).


this is midrange in a multiplayer setting:

CPU: AMD FX-8350, 8 cores @ 4 GHz
GPU: AMD Radeon 7970 3 GB (AMD will add support for the AMD Radeon™ HD 7970 in a later stage of Mantle's release schedule, learn more(link-http://www.amd.com/us/products/technologies/mantle/Pages/mantle.aspx) [amd.com]
Settings: 1080p ULTRA 1x MSAA
OS: Windows 8 64-bit
Level: Siege of Shanghai
Level was tested with 64 "pseudo players" that we have for our own internal testing that simulates heavy game workload that we have in multiplayer in order to get more deterministic results compared to full real multiplayer. 64 players on the large Battlefield levels is really demanding of the CPU so this test case is primarily CPU-bound.
Result: 18.87 ms/f -> 15.08 ms/f = 25.1% faster


----------



## RagingCain

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *skupples*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Newbie2009*
> 
> AMD sucks for not releasing it now.
> AMD releases it now AMD sucks because it does not take into account people who cannot install a driver.
> 
> Mantle sucks because it's not made by Nvidia.
> 
> Good summary of the thread?
> 
> 
> 
> no, not really.
> 
> It's good practice to ignore/skip over the ignorant posters throwing tantrums because they get the tingling feeling in the e-peen
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Clukos*
> 
> Also something something Nvidia, and Titan.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I own three titans, yet do don't conform to your analysis of "nvidia fan boy" posters. Just thought I would drop that line.
> 
> People seem so hell bent on turning every thread into a QQ bash. It comes from both sides of the line, & serves no purpose. Some one posts bashing mantle, some one then posts a response bashing them for bashing mantle, some one else posts bashing both of them for bashing amd & mantle, some one else then posts with the quintessential "gawd nvidia fanboy, something something nvidia, & titan" get your heads out of the gutter, & focus on what is actually happening in the thread for once. Ignore the cry babies, & pay attention to the facts
> 
> Brand loyalty is a detriment to the person holding it. DX11 is a shriveled up old hag, which needs to be put down. MANTLE is the first attempt @ doing so in a long time. Every person who owns a GPU should be supporting it, & AMD.
Click to expand...

I never understood this. DirectX is the Windows of the API world.

Is there a reason why people are unfairly bashing DirectX? Was there some article I missed that had facts to back up that DirectX 11 is hyper bloated and useless?


----------



## skupples

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Kuivamaa*
> 
> You are probably refering to 49x0 paired with a 260X that sees like 2% performance increase-the sandy extreme is paired with 2x290X-quite different case, you'll agree.


which is even more confusing because AMD them selves released a statement saying that x-fire is broken in the first release.

I don't really understand how anyone could expect a "full release" of mantle API. AMD has given multiple road maps showing the progression of mantle. It's also a piece of software, software almost always releases in a beta state. Just no winning for some people, I don't really understand why anyone would wish this endeavor to fail.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RagingCain*
> 
> I never understood this. DirectX is the Windows of the API world.
> 
> Is there a reason why people are unfairly bashing DirectX? Was there some article I missed that had facts to back up that DirectX 11 is hyper bloated and useless?


DirectX has been bashed upon for a long time. Mostly due to how much work it takes to get games running on more than 1 or 2 cores/threads. It's hard to tell if what's been released recently is advertising/hype, or facts. The oxide demo is the biggest thing iv'e ever seen showing the problems with directX. When they pan to show the whole fleet the FPS drops down to 3-5. They then run it again with mantle and it only drops down to 20-30fps... Only time will tell if DirectX is as bad as AMD is saying it is.

I'm sure everyone has read how much the developers supposedly hate DirectX @ this point, & how they have been begging for an alternative. Once again, the recent supply of this info comes from AMD, so it's hard to tell. I know very few programmers, but all of them hate directX & have high hopes for Mantle.


----------



## $ilent

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Artev*
> 
> this is midrange in a multiplayer setting:
> 
> CPU: AMD FX-8350, 8 cores @ 4 GHz
> GPU: AMD Radeon 7970 3 GB (AMD will add support for the AMD Radeon™ HD 7970 in a later stage of Mantle's release schedule, learn more(link-http://www.amd.com/us/products/technologies/mantle/Pages/mantle.aspx) [amd.com]
> Settings: 1080p ULTRA 1x MSAA
> OS: Windows 8 64-bit
> Level: Siege of Shanghai
> Level was tested with 64 "pseudo players" that we have for our own internal testing that simulates heavy game workload that we have in multiplayer in order to get more deterministic results compared to full real multiplayer. 64 players on the large Battlefield levels is really demanding of the CPU so this test case is primarily CPU-bound.
> Result: 18.87 ms/f -> 15.08 ms/f = 25.1% faster


Just show me a benchmark that shows a 64 player REAL multiplayer setup using before and after tests with mantle and show me a genuine performance upgrade like what amd promised and ill take everything back.

Up until now all amd seem to be able to show us in the majority of these benchmarks is at best 10% improvement, and even then thats in singleplayer. Nvidia drivers give you that improvement more oftan than not every driver update!


----------



## bencher

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *$ilent*
> 
> Im not trying to stir up trouble, but you gotta admit AMD are taking the mickey out of us here.
> 
> First they say *r9 290x will beat Titan*, and sometimes it did HOWEVER it ran so stupidly hot and loud that it had to underclcok itself.
> 
> Then they release awful driver after driver, what was it like 12 times they update the 13.xx drivers and they still sucked.
> 
> Afterwards AMD takes forever to release aftermarket gpus just to make it so they dont underclock themselfs all the damm time.
> 
> Now they release mantle, after initially claiming HUGE improvements in graphics performance, and all I see is singleplayer results that are totally irrelevant. Contrary to what people on here might claim, nobody and I mean NOBODY on this forum runs a r9 290x with a cheap AMD cpu such as a 7700K or a cheap intel dual core cpu. So why pre tell would AMD release mantle, and only show us singleplayer results and useless benchmarks with ridiculously mismatched components that nobody uses?
> 
> it seems pretty obvious to me: The multiplayer improvements are going to be none existent for the vast majority of people.
> 
> How do I know this? Because this is AMD and they do this everytime (fabricate results or just plain lie and get everyone;s hopes up).


Fixed....

The R9 290x beats the 780.


----------



## Kuivamaa

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *skupples*
> 
> which is even more confusing because AMD them selves released a statement saying that x-fire is broken in the first release.


Source?


----------



## PostalTwinkie

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Kuivamaa*
> 
> Source?


Yea, I have been asking for sources from AMD telling us to expect a broken or incomplete release PRIOR to today...

So far no one has been able to produce one.

Heck, a simple _"Heads up, Mantle will be a partial release and beta. Some features not fully supported on release"_ from Cave Man Jim would have worked.


----------



## Fniz92

Like this?

"We are putting the finishing touches on the AMD Catalyst™ 14.1 Beta driver, which enables support for Mantle. We appreciate your patience."

https://twitter.com/AMDRadeon


----------



## skupples

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Kuivamaa*
> 
> Source?


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PostalTwinkie*
> 
> Yea, I have been asking for sources from AMD telling us to expect a broken or incomplete release PRIOR to today...
> 
> So far no one has been able to produce one.
> 
> Heck, a simple _"Heads up, Mantle will be a partial release and beta. Some features not fully supported on release"_ from Cave Man Jim would have worked.


sure, i'll find it. it's only been linked 10 times by now. The most recent source being the Pc Perspective article, which has an *OFFICIAL AMD website* with known issues, & bug complaint system.


----------



## PostalTwinkie

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Fniz92*
> 
> Like this?
> 
> "We are putting the finishing touches on the AMD Catalyst™ 14.1 Beta driver, which enables support for Mantle. We appreciate your patience."
> 
> https://twitter.com/AMDRadeon


That was 3 hours ago, not prior to the release.....AMD can say whatever they want after the release, that doesn't set expectations prior to and ON release!

Oh, and "finishing touches" doesn't even remotely imply "incomplete" or "beta". So even if that was said PRIOR to the release, it would have only made the situation worse. As how could you honestly say "Putting on the finishing touches" and then when it is released go "Oh, its beta btw, it isn't finished.".

Seriously....think about that.


----------



## Slomo4shO

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *skupples*
> 
> Brand loyalty is a detriment to the person holding it.


It is amazing how few actually understand this


----------



## HowHardCanItBe

Hi guys, keep it cool in here.


----------



## bencher

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *skupples*
> 
> sure, i'll find it. it's only been linked 10 times by now. The most recent source being the Pc Perspective article, which has an *OFFICIAL AMD website* with known issues, & bug complaint system.


Just leave it alone.


----------



## skupples

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PostalTwinkie*
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!
> 
> 
> 
> Yea, I have been asking for sources from AMD telling us to expect a broken or incomplete release PRIOR to today...
> 
> So far no one has been able to produce one.
> 
> Heck, a simple _"Heads up, Mantle will be a partial release and beta. Some features not fully supported on release"_ from Cave Man Jim would have worked.


here you go.

source.

http://www.pcper.com/reviews/Graphics-Cards/AMD-Catalyst-141-Beta-Driver-Brings-Mantle-Support-Frame-Pacing-Phase-2-HSA

http://www.amd.com/mantleknownissues

this will go live once they push the new drivers.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bencher*
> 
> Just leave it alone.


no.


----------



## Fniz92

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PostalTwinkie*
> 
> That was 3 hours ago, not prior to the release.....AMD can say whatever they want after the release, that doesn't set expectations prior to and ON release!
> 
> Oh, and "finishing touches" doesn't even remotely imply "incomplete" or "beta". So even if that was said PRIOR to the release, it would have only made the situation worse. As how could you honestly say "Putting on the finishing touches" and then when it is released go "Oh, its beta btw, it isn't finished.".
> 
> Seriously....think about that.


I have NO idea what you're whining about, I honestly dont.


----------



## Themisseble

tomorrow AMD will release beta 14.1 drivers?
14.1 shoud be 2014 - 1


----------



## skupples

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PostalTwinkie*
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!
> 
> 
> 
> That was 3 hours ago, not prior to the release.....AMD can say whatever they want after the release, that doesn't set expectations prior to and ON release!
> 
> Oh, and "finishing touches" doesn't even remotely imply "incomplete" or "beta". So even if that was said PRIOR to the release, it would have only made the situation worse. As how could you honestly say "Putting on the finishing touches" and then when it is released go "Oh, its beta btw, it isn't finished.".
> 
> Seriously....think about that.


it's an API, they take years to build. We probably won't see AMD slap a "release version" title on it for another 6-12 months, & even then they plan for it to be ever evolving. Which can be seen in the mantle road map.


----------



## ~kRon1k~

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *5entinel*
> 
> Hi guys, keep it cool in here.


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Fniz92*
> 
> I have NO idea what you're whining about, I honestly dont.


lol

on topic: I am waiting for these 14.1 drivers. hope they work better than 13.12


----------



## maarten12100

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Themisseble*
> 
> tomorrow AMD will release beta 14.1 drivers?
> 14.1 shoud be 2014 - 1


It is the 30th of January here in NL and January has 31 days. So maybe for your time zone.


----------



## Themisseble

Is any here using R9 290 and FX 8350? Any improvement in BF4 MP?


----------



## Seven7h

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Aesthethc*
> 
> If you look in the article it says 25% gain - 14 fps with an fx8350 + 7970 on Ultra @ 1x MSAA ( i believe that means 2x MSAA, there is no 1x?) 53 fps to 67 fps avg apparently for multiplayer 64 players.
> 
> who knows if its more gains for a 290x or 290. Im excited to see what NVidia has to reply to this, cause usually thats what NVidia does....


1x MSAA means no MSAA. No AA.


----------



## PostalTwinkie

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Fniz92*
> 
> I have NO idea what you're whining about, I honestly dont.


Well then why get involved in the conversation that was being had?

Here, I will bring you up to speed so you are aware of what is going on in this particular conversation, as I do want you to understand.

I made a comment about Mantle being disappointing due to how incomplete it is, and the fact that drivers haven't even been released yet, even though they "released" Mantle. Another user made the assertion that we were told PRIOR to release that when Mantle came out it would be beta, and incomplete.

At that point I stated I had been following Mantle from the start and that AMD and DICE made no indication, and gave us no reason to believe, that on "release" it would be an incomplete beta release. I then asked for a source from either AMD or DICE that was given to the public *BEFORE TODAY*, that would have given us reason to believe it wasn't a full release. That it was indeed an incomplete beta release.

No one has been able to provide that dated announcement, only posting comments from DICE and AMD today.

In short, I made a comment about the disappointing release, people wigged out and said we should have expected it and that we were told. I asked for that information to be produced, and no one can do that, instead wigging out on me.


----------



## delusion87

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Newbie2009*
> 
> AMD sucks for not releasing it now.
> AMD releases it now AMD sucks because it does not take into account people who cannot install a driver.
> 
> Mantle sucks because it's not made by Nvidia.
> 
> Good summary of the thread?


+ The amount of epic crying is quite enjoyable.
+ Some people here have serious reading issues (consider going back to elementary school guys)


----------



## Fniz92

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Themisseble*
> 
> Is any here using R9 290 and FX 8350? Any improvement in BF4 MP?


No driver for mantle yet so I'm pretty sure no one can answer that for you


----------



## PostalTwinkie

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *skupples*
> 
> it's an API, they take years to build. We probably won't see AMD slap a "release version" title on it for another 6-12 months, & even then they plan for it to be ever evolving. Which can be seen in the mantle road map.


I know APIs take years, and they have been working on it for years at this point....
Quote:


> Mantle is a new low-level graphics API that we've been working very closely with AMD on over the last 2 years


Source


----------



## sugarhell

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PostalTwinkie*
> 
> Well then why get involved in the conversation that was being had?
> 
> Here, I will bring you up to speed so you are aware of what is going on in this particular conversation, as I do want you to understand.
> 
> I made a comment about Mantle being disappointing due to how incomplete it is, and the fact that drivers haven't even been released yet, even though they "released" Mantle. Another user made the assertion that we were told PRIOR to release that when Mantle came out it would be beta, and incomplete.
> 
> At that point I stated I had been following Mantle from the start and that AMD and DICE made no indication, and gave us no reason to believe, that on "release" it would be an incomplete beta release. I then asked for a source from either AMD or DICE that was given to the public *BEFORE TODAY*, that would have given us reason to believe it wasn't a full release. That it was indeed an incomplete beta release.
> 
> No one has been able to provide that dated announcement, only posting comments from DICE and AMD today.
> 
> In short, I made a comment about the disappointing release, people wigged out and said we should have expected it and that we were told. I asked for that information to be produce, and no one can do that, instead wigging out on me.


Go watch APU13 keynotes. Its all there.

Also here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r7Q_nAnnrnI


----------



## Fniz92

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PostalTwinkie*
> 
> Well then why get involved in the conversation that was being had?
> 
> Here, I will bring you up to speed so you are aware of what is going on in this particular conversation, as I do want you to understand.


I wasn't sure If you were disappointed with the fact that the driver was beta or the fact that we had to wait another day for the driver, I get it now. Still, can't you hold judgement until the driver gets released tomorrow, It's only a day


----------



## Kuivamaa

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *skupples*
> 
> here you go.
> 
> http://www.pcper.com/reviews/Graphics-Cards/AMD-Catalyst-141-Beta-Driver-Brings-Mantle-Support-Frame-Pacing-Phase-2-HSA
> 
> http://www.amd.com/mantleknownissues


2nd link is dead. I am not sure what you are trying to say with the first link, I was expecting some source of AMD admitting that xfire is broken on BF4 and you gave me a generic article on 2nd phase of frame pacing drivers. Btw 1st phase was online back in August (with 13.8) already.

http://www.pcper.com/reviews/Graphics-Cards/Frame-Rating-Catalyst-138-Brings-Frame-Pacing-AMD-Radeon/Radeon-HD-7970-GHz-C


----------



## Ithanul

Very interested in what increases in other games that will have mantle. Especially once support comes for 7000 series cards. I kind of want to see what my 7970 with 1090T Thuban in my folding rig would get compared to my Titan with a 4770K.


----------



## RagingCain

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *skupples*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Kuivamaa*
> 
> You are probably refering to 49x0 paired with a 260X that sees like 2% performance increase-the sandy extreme is paired with 2x290X-quite different case, you'll agree.
> 
> 
> 
> which is even more confusing because AMD them selves released a statement saying that x-fire is broken in the first release.
> 
> I don't really understand how anyone could expect a "full release" of mantle API. AMD has given multiple road maps showing the progression of mantle. It's also a piece of software, software almost always releases in a beta state. Just no winning for some people, I don't really understand why anyone would wish this endeavor to fail.
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *RagingCain*
> 
> I never understood this. DirectX is the Windows of the API world.
> 
> Is there a reason why people are unfairly bashing DirectX? Was there some article I missed that had facts to back up that DirectX 11 is hyper bloated and useless?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> DirectX has been bashed upon for a long time. Mostly due to how much work it takes to get games running on more than 1 or 2 cores/threads. It's hard to tell if what's been released recently is advertising/hype, or facts. The oxide demo is the biggest thing iv'e ever seen showing the problems with directX. When they pan to show the whole fleet the FPS drops down to 3-5. They then run it again with mantle and it only drops down to 20-30fps... Only time will tell if DirectX is as bad as AMD is saying it is.
> 
> I'm sure everyone has read how much the developers supposedly hate DirectX @ this point, & how they have been begging for an alternative. Once again, the recent supply of this info comes from AMD, so it's hard to tell. I know very few programmers, but all of them hate directX & have high hopes for Mantle.
Click to expand...

DirectX11 was a major overhaul, the function call set is clean, things finally were retired/deprecated out. What I think the majority of developers problems have been forced to make DX9 compatible for the last 10 years. That has to be boring.

Word of mouth\he said/she said etc., is what just about anyone can look up regarding DX11.

Mantle would be good "proving" things like this though when similar performance on high-end systems can be found.


----------



## PostalTwinkie

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Fniz92*
> 
> I wasn't sure If you were disappointed with the fact that the driver was beta or the fact that we had to wait another day for the driver, I get it now. Still, can't you hold judgement until the driver gets released tomorrow, It's only a day


Oh, I am very excited to actually get the drivers and being able to test Mantle, because what was released today sure isn't worth much.

The disappointment comes in how this entire thing has been handled by DICE and AMD. I REALLY hate to say it, but it reminds me of Bulldozer.....

Lots of fancy and flashy numbers and talk coming from inside the AMD compound, but so far nothing we have been able to vet on our own. Even though it has been "released"....

Frustrating.


----------



## IloveShoes

Support for 7xxx is allready in the 14.1 drivers

All GCN cards will support Mantle with the driver

"AMD Catalyst 14.1 Beta will support ALL desktop GCN products, though we are working with EA to further optimize performance on 280X, 270X, HD 7000 and HD 8000. We have asked EA to update their blog to reflect this."

https://www.facebook.com/AMDGaming


----------



## PostalTwinkie

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *IloveShoes*
> 
> Support for 7xxx is allready in the 14.1 drivers
> 
> All GCN cards will support Mantle with the driver
> 
> "AMD Catalyst 14.1 Beta will support ALL desktop GCN products, though we are working with EA to further optimize performance on 280X, 270X, HD 7000 and HD 8000. We have asked EA to update their blog to reflect this."
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/AMDGaming


Yea, I think we all understand that, they just aren't out yet.

Last time I refreshed AMDs beta release page it 404ed me. I have a feeling I am not the only one viewing it right now!


----------



## IloveShoes

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ithanul*
> 
> Very interested in what increases in other games that will have mantle. Especially once support comes for 7000 series cards. I kind of want to see what my 7970 with 1090T Thuban in my folding rig would get compared to my Titan with a 4770K.


Not everyone caught that all GCN cards are supported with this driver


----------



## Ithanul

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *IloveShoes*
> 
> Not everyone caught that all GCN cards are supported with this driver


Well by the sounds of it the driver is not out yet. Also, only BF4 is using mantle. I have no interest in buying BF4 to just try out mantle. I remember reading somewhere Theif will have mantle support, and since I have plans to buy that game I be willing to see what increases I can get with it.


----------



## mrawesome421

I wonder if my old Phenom X4 @ 3.8 Ghz would see any performance increases from Mantel. Doubtful but I dare to dream...


----------



## Timeofdoom

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ithanul*
> 
> Well by the sounds of it the driver is not out yet. Also, only BF4 is using mantle. I have no interest in buying BF4 to just try out mantle.


If you wanna try Mantle out, then by all means, have a link: http://store.steampowered.com/app/267130/


----------



## maarten12100

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ithanul*
> 
> Well by the sounds of it the driver is not out yet. Also, only BF4 is using mantle. I have no interest in buying BF4 to just try out mantle. I remember reading somewhere Theif will have mantle support, and since I have plans to buy that game I be willing to see what increases I can get with it.


Oxide star swarm demo to get an impression of the gains remember to disable blur on the DX version. (blur is bugged and costs lots of perf)


----------



## Erick Silver

I wonder what kind of improvement I will see with my 1090T and HD7950?


----------



## Ithanul

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *maarten12100*
> 
> Oxide star swarm demo to get an impression of the gains remember to disable blur on the DX version. (blur is bugged and costs lots of perf)


I probably give that demo a try once I get my main rig back up and running so I can do the comparisons between the 7970 & Titan.


----------



## skupples

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PostalTwinkie*
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!
> 
> 
> 
> Well then why get involved in the conversation that was being had?
> 
> Here, I will bring you up to speed so you are aware of what is going on in this particular conversation, as I do want you to understand.
> 
> I made a comment about Mantle being disappointing due to how incomplete it is, and the fact that drivers haven't even been released yet, even though they "released" Mantle. Another user made the assertion that we were told PRIOR to release that when Mantle came out it would be beta, and incomplete.
> 
> At that point I stated I had been following Mantle from the start and that AMD and DICE made no indication, and gave us no reason to believe, that on "release" it would be an incomplete beta release. I then asked for a source from either AMD or DICE that was given to the public *BEFORE TODAY*, that would have given us reason to believe it wasn't a full release. That it was indeed an incomplete beta release.
> 
> No one has been able to provide that dated announcement, only posting comments from DICE and AMD today.
> 
> In short, I made a comment about the disappointing release, people wigged out and said we should have expected it and that we were told. I asked for that information to be produced, and no one can do that, instead wigging out on me.


The PCPER article I linked contains information saying that mantle will be a "beta release" & it's not from today. It also contains the information showing that x-fire is a known issue, along with portrait mode, & a few other things.

As to people talking about "an nvidia response"

two things...

A.) nvidia already has it's own API, it's been around for a long time now. It's called NVAPI.
B.) The only thing nvidia should do in regards to a response is adapt the technology.

I have a fear that Nvidia may respond by pushing the new openGL extensions. I have this fear because John Carmack has been raving about them, in direct comparison to Mantle for months now.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Kuivamaa*
> 
> 2nd link is dead. I am not sure what you are trying to say with the first link, I was expecting some source of AMD admitting that xfire is broken on BF4 and you gave me a generic article on 2nd phase of frame pacing drivers. Btw 1st phase was online back in August (with 13.8) already.
> 
> http://www.pcper.com/reviews/Graphics-Cards/Frame-Rating-Catalyst-138-Brings-Frame-Pacing-AMD-Radeon/Radeon-HD-7970-GHz-C


some one A.) didn't read my entire post, as I stated, & the article you didn't finish states, the "dead link" will remain dead until AMD releases the new drivers.

B.) didn't read the entire "generic article" which covers everything in the 14.1 driver update.

-1.


----------



## PostalTwinkie

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Erick Silver*
> 
> I wonder what kind of improvement I will see with my 1090T and HD7950?


When the drivers come out run Star Sawrm and post your results. I would be interested in seeing them.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *skupples*
> 
> here you go.
> 
> source.
> 
> http://www.pcper.com/reviews/Graphics-Cards/AMD-Catalyst-141-Beta-Driver-Brings-Mantle-Support-Frame-Pacing-Phase-2-HSA
> 
> http://www.amd.com/mantleknownissues
> 
> this will go live once they push the new drivers.
> no.


You mean that one? The one dated January 30th 2014?

*looks at clock*

Pretty sure that is today.


----------



## PostalTwinkie

DELETE


----------



## Erick Silver

I will run that Star Swarm before and after Mantle for a comparative.


----------



## stiv

@ PostalTwinkle, can you tell me how much cpu usage you get in mp BF4 ? because when i had my 2500k with cf 7970's it was using 100% cpu usage. Changing to a 3770k gave me a 20% performance increase. Maybe with mantle it would relieve your cpu bottleneck
so you might get a decent performance boost.


----------



## RagingCain

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *skupples*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *PostalTwinkie*
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!
> 
> 
> 
> Well then why get involved in the conversation that was being had?
> 
> Here, I will bring you up to speed so you are aware of what is going on in this particular conversation, as I do want you to understand.
> 
> I made a comment about Mantle being disappointing due to how incomplete it is, and the fact that drivers haven't even been released yet, even though they "released" Mantle. Another user made the assertion that we were told PRIOR to release that when Mantle came out it would be beta, and incomplete.
> 
> At that point I stated I had been following Mantle from the start and that AMD and DICE made no indication, and gave us no reason to believe, that on "release" it would be an incomplete beta release. I then asked for a source from either AMD or DICE that was given to the public *BEFORE TODAY*, that would have given us reason to believe it wasn't a full release. That it was indeed an incomplete beta release.
> 
> No one has been able to provide that dated announcement, only posting comments from DICE and AMD today.
> 
> In short, I made a comment about the disappointing release, people wigged out and said we should have expected it and that we were told. I asked for that information to be produced, and no one can do that, instead wigging out on me.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The PCPER article I linked contains information saying that mantle will be a "beta release" & it's not from today. It also contains the information showing that x-fire is a known issue, along with portrait mode, & a few other things.
> 
> As to people talking about "an nvidia response"
> 
> two things...
> 
> A.) nvidia already has it's own API, it's been around for a long time now. It's called NVAPI.
> B.) The only thing nvidia should do in regards to a response is adapt the technology.
> 
> I have a fear that Nvidia may respond by pushing the new openGL extensions. I have this fear because John Carmack has been raving about them, in direct comparison to Mantle for months now.
Click to expand...

No Change - DirectX Primary Support: Most Likely
Adding OpenGL Extensions: Likely
Create a CTM API: Possible
Other: Unlikely
Joining Mantle: Very Unlikely

NVAPI is misunderstood, and has nothing to do with any of this.
Quote:


> NVAPI FEATURE CATEGORIES
> 
> Driver Management
> Initialization and driver version controls.
> GPU Management
> Enumeration of physical and logical GPUs. Thermal and Cooling controls.
> Display Management
> Enumeration of NVDIA displays, display postion and timings controls.
> GPU Topology
> Ability to enable SLI and Hybrid GPU topologies.*
> Frame Rendering
> Ability to control Video and DX rendering not available in DX runtime.*
> System Management
> Ability to query chipset and system specific information.
> HDTV Controls
> HDTV format and overscan controls.*
> Video Controls
> Extended video engine controls.*
> Connecting and Configuring Monitors
> Ability to set views on multiple target monitors.
> GPU Overclocking
> GPU overclocking APIs allows apps to run apps at maximum possible clocks.


https://developer.nvidia.com/nvapi


----------



## skupples

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PostalTwinkie*
> 
> When the drivers come out run Star Sawrm and post your results. I would be interested in seeing them.
> You mean that one? The one dated January 30th 2014?
> 
> *looks at clock*
> 
> Pretty sure that is today.












it released before midnight EST last night, so, while dated January 30th, was view-able before the 30th.

It's not our fault you bought into the advertising hype.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RagingCain*
> 
> No Change - DirectX Primary Support: Most Likely
> Adding OpenGL Extensions: Likely
> Create a CTM API: Possible
> Other: Unlikely
> *Joining Mantle: Very Unlikely*
> 
> NVAPI is misunderstood, and has nothing to do with any of this.
> https://developer.nvidia.com/nvapi


agreed.

Carmack spouting off about the benefits of the new OGL extensions isn't happenstance.


----------



## Majin SSJ Eric

This is the official AMD statement:
Quote:


> We want to convey that this is only the initial release of Mantle. Mantle will continue to grow, evolve and improve in the months ahead. As an initial release, however, there is a list of known issues we are tracking. Everyone in the Mantle ecosystem is working to identify the root cause of these problems, and to resolve them as quickly as possible. As they are resolved, we and our partners will be issuing new drivers and patches as necessary!
> 
> *We felt it best to get users working with and providing feedback on Mantle as soon as possible, rather than hold the entire launch for select scenarios that aren't performing up to our expectations.* The known issues will be posted for all to see at www.amd.com/mantleknownissues, and attached you will find the complete list.


Now when that statement was actually released to the public I don't know, but the media certainly had it before today...


----------



## PostalTwinkie

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *skupples*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> it released before midnight EST last night, so, while dated January 30th, was view-able before the 30th.
> 
> It's not our fault you bought into the advertising hype.
> agreed.
> 
> Carmack spouting off about the benefits of the new OGL extensions isn't happenstance.


I never said I bought into the hype.

I did say I was disappointed in how AMD and DICE handled this, and how shady they have been about it. I was online until about 9 PM PST last night looking for Mantle information, and didn't come across anything. So frankly; even IF that was released just before midnight EST, an under the radar midnight hour clandestine post from a third party on the eve of their product launch isn't really disclosure.

The fact that the only and STRONGEST argument about their behavior is a post dated TODAY, but supposedly live just before MIDNIGHT is pretty sad. If anything it drives the point home further.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Majin SSJ Eric*
> 
> This is the official AMD statement:
> Now when that statement was actually released to the public I don't know, but the media certainly had it before today...


Link is down, AMD's website is having some problems today.










Although I believe I viewed it earlier and it was a post from today.


----------



## axizor

You people are going craaaazzzzyyy over this lol.

Take a deep breath. Exhale. (Works best with your eyes closed.)


----------



## Dimaggio1103

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PostalTwinkie*
> 
> *Actually I have sold them to my business for its mining rig. That way I avoid the eBay and Paypal fees, can charge whatever I want to my own business. I can even have my business order my 780 Tis, and write them off in inventory.*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What I find amazing is everyone being stuck on the cherry picked, from AMD and DICE, absolute high end scenarios. As Forceman said, it isn't the high end numbers that you are going to notice the most, but the lower end numbers.
> 
> Sorry, but a 2% to cherry picked 45%+ isn't showing of great news! That is an absolutely massive swing in numbers, huge! You don't want that, that isn't good!
> 
> As Alatar, myself, and a few others have said; we happily await independent results on the matter.
> 
> I also point out again, that really high number was at 1080P with 290X in crossfire! I hope to god you weren't struggle with that setup at that resolution before Mantle, if you were something was really wrong!


Yes but you still pay out of pocket......your point? I also run a PC Business (Brick and mortar, not just a "eBay Business") no matter what your paying for them. Yes you can write them off, but only if they where strictly for the business. Anything else would be a felony and im pretty sure we are not supposed to discuss such things here.









I have to ask if your so big in the industry, why own a measly 2500k? A big boss such as yourself should be rocking something more than a budget rig right? With all do respect of course, i was just curious.


----------



## maarten12100

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ithanul*
> 
> I probably give that demo a try once I get my main rig back up and running so I can do the comparisons between the 7970 & Titan.


That is a bit hard since the Titan would only be able to run with DX giving zero useful comparison


----------



## Erick Silver




----------



## triarii3

is 14.1 out yet? i dont see it on the AMD website right now


----------



## Kosai

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *triarii3*
> 
> is 14.1 out yet? i dont see it on the AMD website right now


Same here, someone please confirm.

Whens the release date for 14.1?


----------



## skupples

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Kosai*
> 
> Same here, someone please confirm.
> 
> Whens the release date for 14.1?


Likely won't be releasing for another 24-48 hours.


----------



## MerkageTurk

we had the same problem with nVidia and Shadowplay; just be patient fellow AMD users and be happy for any performance boosts; plus the CPU will now talk directly with the GPU


----------



## Seven7h

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *skupples*
> 
> The PCPER article I linked contains information saying that mantle will be a "beta release" & it's not from today. It also contains the information showing that x-fire is a known issue, along with portrait mode, & a few other things.
> 
> As to people talking about "an nvidia response"
> 
> two things...
> 
> A.) nvidia already has it's own API, it's been around for a long time now. It's called NVAPI.
> B.) The only thing nvidia should do in regards to a response is adapt the technology.
> 
> I have a fear that Nvidia may respond by pushing the new openGL extensions. I have this fear because John Carmack has been raving about them, in direct comparison to Mantle for months now.
> some one A.) didn't read my entire post, as I stated, & the article you didn't finish states, the "dead link" will remain dead until AMD releases the new drivers.
> 
> B.) didn't read the entire "generic article" which covers everything in the 14.1 driver update.
> 
> -1.


NVAPI is not a standalone rendering API. In addition to basic queries for functionality, video Apis, stereo rendering Apis, and clock/pstate Apis, it has Apis to extend DX. It adds on top of DX... It doesn't replace it.


----------



## p00ter71

Oops.I guess theyre not out yet.


----------



## HowHardCanItBe

Could we stay on topic thanks? This is not suppose to be whatever brand you are a fan of. This thread is about mantle


----------



## skupples

ran the star swarm benchmark... results: w/ hyper-threading off




Test Duration: 120 Seconds
Total Frames: 9315

Average FPS: 77.58
Average Unit Count: 3845
Maximum Unit Count: 5415
Average Batches/MS: 900.35
Maximum Batches/MS: 2314.12
Average Batch Count: 12808
Maximum Batch Count: 96549

the dump doesn't spit out a low & high, but the highest I saw was 200FPS, lowest ~13 FPS.

The strange thing here, maybe some one with more knowledge can explain it. A.) it's only using GPU #3, B.) the FPS drops i had didn't match up with the few times my CPU hit 99%.

*I am linking this so that we can get a direct comparison when the mantle drivers hit.*


----------



## tinmann

I'm temped to buy a HD 7970 3Gb and put it in my secondary rig to test Mantle and BF4 performance ........NAAAH! It may be best to wait a few months. New Catalyst drivers, new AMD api, Dice, EA, AMD, there's just too many negative variables in this equation.


----------



## damnwebsite

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PostalTwinkie*
> 
> Actually this brings up a very good point......
> 
> Why weren't they already in the driver pack? Mantle has been delayed several times now already, how come this still isn't done? What has AMD and their driver team been doing all this time? I find it laughable that after so many delays, they still aren't ready, yet patch it anyways.
> Because I can't run fast enough to chase a live horse and beat it. Duh.........
> *You show me ONE person on this planet that runs an Extreme series Intel processor but only pairs it with a 260X*! Come on now, use your brain a little! How insane do they think WE are for us to even bite on that use case?
> 
> _"Let's take one of the most expensive consumer processors on the market, and pair it with a cheap low end card! They will believe that!"_
> 
> It was insulting to see it.


me?









well at least along the lines of it lol


----------



## PostalTwinkie

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *damnwebsite*
> 
> me?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> well at least along the lines of it lol












You win the Internet.


----------



## bencher

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *damnwebsite*
> 
> me?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> well at least along the lines of it lol


Lmao


----------



## kingduqc

So under 10% for people who don't have a stupid build? Kinda disappointed.


----------



## King4x4

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kingduqc*
> 
> So under 10% for people who don't have a stupid build? Kinda disappointed.


10% more fps and smoother frames and you are disappointed? Free too?

Please!


----------



## maarten12100

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kingduqc*
> 
> So under 10% for people who don't have a stupid build? Kinda disappointed.


3970x with CF 290x is a stupid built?


----------



## dr.evil

ok now that mantle is here what gpu is good to pair with my old phenom II x4 955 that benefict me from mantle??


----------



## bencher

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *dr.evil*
> 
> ok now that mantle is here what gpu is good to pair with my old phenom II x4 955 that benefict me from mantle??


I would still probably change that cpu.


----------



## mboner1

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RagingCain*
> 
> So, as an Intel / nVidia users, I warmly welcome you (at least the single GPUs) to what gaming is actually like on our side of the pond.


LOL. Sorry, but as a Nvidia user you don't get to claim Mantle as "your side of the pond" lol.


----------



## Slomo4shO

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *dr.evil*
> 
> ok now that mantle is here what gpu is good to pair with my old phenom II x4 955 that benefict me from mantle??


Wait for reviews once AMD drops the mantle patch...


----------



## jamaican voodoo

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *skupples*
> 
> no, not really.
> 
> It's good practice to ignore/skip over the ignorant posters throwing tantrums because they get the tingling feeling in the e-peen
> I own three titans, yet do don't conform to your analysis of "nvidia fan boy" posters. Just thought I would drop that line.
> 
> People seem so hell bent on turning every thread into a QQ bash. It comes from both sides of the line, & serves no purpose. Some one posts bashing mantle, some one then posts a response bashing them for bashing mantle, some one else posts bashing both of them for bashing amd & mantle, some one else then posts with the quintessential "gawd nvidia fanboy, something something nvidia, & titan" get your heads out of the gutter, & focus on what is actually happening in the thread for once. Ignore the cry babies, & pay attention to the facts
> 
> Brand loyalty is a detriment to the person holding it. DX11 is a shriveled up old hag, which needs to be put down. MANTLE is the first attempt @ doing so in a long time. Every person who owns a GPU should be supporting it, & AMD.


thank you a positive post regardless of which gpu you prefer... this is how it should be but it seems some people can't stay positive


----------



## RagingCain

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mboner1*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *RagingCain*
> 
> So, as an Intel / nVidia users, I warmly welcome you (at least the single GPUs) to what gaming is actually like on our side of the pond.
> 
> 
> 
> LOL. Sorry, but as a Nvidia user you don't get to claim Mantle as "your side of the pond" lol.
Click to expand...

Not sure what you are "LOLing" at but I think you are confused, I should have stated more clearly Intel w/ nVidia / AMD users.

If all Mantle is doing is removing CPU bottlenecks, I have long passed having one with Intel and an OC.


----------



## bencher

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mboner1*
> 
> LOL. Sorry, but as a Nvidia user you don't get to claim Mantle as "your side of the pond" lol.


I think you read the post in the wrong context.

He is saying amd users will now feel what gaming is. Lol


----------



## RagingCain

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bencher*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *mboner1*
> 
> LOL. Sorry, but as a Nvidia user you don't get to claim Mantle as "your side of the pond" lol.
> 
> 
> 
> I think you read the post in the wrong context.
> 
> He is saying amd users will now feel what gaming is. Lol
Click to expand...

AMD CPUs specifically.


----------



## HowHardCanItBe

Do I have to keep giving reminders or will people behave in here?


----------



## ZealotKi11er

My main problem in PC for me especially BF3 was CPU bottleneck even at 1440p with 3770K @ 4.6GHz. How i don't have to give Intel more money







. Give money when they start making PC CPUs.


----------



## Imouto

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RagingCain*
> 
> If all Mantle is doing is removing CPU bottlenecks, I have long passed having one with Intel and an OC.


Try a MMORPG with tons of players on screen.
Try a high end multi-GPU system.
Try a RTS wtih tons of units on screen.

If you can't figure how having more resources on your CPU is always better you're beyond help.


----------



## opty165

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Imouto*
> 
> Try a MMORPG with tons of players on screen.
> Try a high end multi-GPU system.
> Try a RTS wtih tons of units on screen.
> 
> If you can't figure how having more resources on your CPU is always better you're beyond help.


+1 there.

So far I believe Mantle is the most misunderstood piece of technology on this whole message board as of late.


----------



## Nickos

Looking at the benchmarks results by AMD and DICE it seems that:

1) For a single GPU, the more unbalanced (=weaker class of CPU than GPU) your system is the more performance boost you'll have.
So if you have an intel i5 (3 years or newer I guess) or better the performance boost is not something noticeable (less than 10%).
But if you have any AMD CPU/APU paired with a strong AMD GCN based GPU you will have noticeable improvement (from around 20% to 40%)

2) If you have two AMD GCN based GPUs in crossfire, the performance boost is impressive (up to 50%) in 1080p no matter what CPU you're using.
Some say that's due to the inefficient way DirectX handles rendering resources with multiple GPUs.

So if you have
AMD CPU/APU or a low to medium range CPU in general -> noticeable improvement
Crossfire setup -> great/amazing improvement

BUT... bare in mind that all these are what AMD and DICE are telling us most likely using benchmarks in scenarios in the game with high CPU usage (e.g. in multiplayer and some places in single player I guess) not throughout a specific amount of time during gameplay. So we have to wait for actual reviews and tests.


----------



## xentrox

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Jack Mac*
> 
> Everyone would benefit except for Microsoft.


So ultimately it is going to end up being Nvidia and Microsoft with DX and Windows vs. The rest of the world and essentially Linux.

I'd rather place my bet on the latter if you ask me. I think the key here is developers, the more you got in the bag, the more content you will have to market your technology.


----------



## Kuivamaa

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nickos*
> 
> 1) For a single GPU, the more unbalanced (=weaker class of CPU than GPU) your system is the more performance boost you'll have.
> So if you have an intel i5 (3 years or newer I guess) or better the performance boost is not something noticeable (less than 10%).


You don't know that, they claim FX8350(comparable to i5) /7970 combo will see ~25% performance increase.


----------



## Nickos

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Kuivamaa*
> 
> You don't know that, they claim FX8350(comparable to i5) /7970 combo will see ~25% performance increase.


In their results they showed

AMD FX-8350 + R9 290X +23% Performance increase Vs. Direct X
Core i5-4670k + R9 290X +7.5% Performance increase Vs. Driect X

that's why I wrote that about i5 or stronger CPU. And of course FX-8350 is much weaker that an i5 in singlecore performance. So I guess that's the reason they had those results.


----------



## Kuivamaa

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nickos*
> 
> In their results they showed
> 
> AMD FX-8350 + R9 290X +23% Performance increase Vs. Direct X
> Core i5-4670k + R9 290X +7.5% Performance increase Vs. Driect X


In that case 4670k will be trailing the FX by a great deal then.


----------



## Nickos

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Kuivamaa*
> 
> In that case 4670k will be trailing the FX by a great deal then.


Oh sorry... I edited my previous post

added:
[that's why I wrote that about i5 or stronger CPU. And of course FX-8350 is much weaker that an i5 in singlecore performance. So I guess that's the reason they had those results.


----------



## Kuivamaa

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nickos*
> 
> Oh sorry... I edited my previous post
> 
> added:
> [that's why I wrote that about i5 or stronger CPU. And of course FX-8350 is much weaker that an i5 in singlecore performance. So I guess that's the reason they had those results.
> 
> ]


It appears that mantle likes cores or threads (total raw processing power is generally higher on a vishera vs an i5). But that's all questionable till we get actual reviews and not DICE numbers.


----------



## RagingCain

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Imouto*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *RagingCain*
> 
> If all Mantle is doing is removing CPU bottlenecks, I have long passed having one with Intel and an OC.
> 
> 
> 
> Try a MMORPG with tons of players on screen.
> Try a high end multi-GPU system.
> Try a RTS wtih tons of units on screen.
> 
> If you can't figure how having more resources on your CPU is always better you're beyond help.
Click to expand...

Which MMORPG would you like to talk about? EVE Online? WoW? AION? Champions? STO? The Secret World? Final Fantasy XIV?

High end multi-GPU system? Like Quad SLI with a pair of GTX 690s or SLI GTX 780 TIs?

Which RTS would you like to talk about? SCII? Act of War? C&C? Supreme Commander Series? Total War Series? Planetary Annihilation Alpha/Beta?

The problem is, I can't seem to find a CPU bottleneck at 4400+ MHz. I would anticipate that a R9 290X in Crossfire doesn't have one either. If you would like any more information from me, or what games you would like tested conclusively, you can PM me. Here is my main library of games: http://mysteamgauge.com/account?username=RagingCain

Now, do I think Mantle is helping you get any more resources? One could look at it like that, but if your CPU is also relatively idle, and there are no games taking advantage of that, what did any high-end system gain? Wouldn't you say that even if we are using more Brute-Force from CPU to get here, it is more or less the same outcome?

However, try not to make me sound like an idiot, this all is in context of a response to which I basically said "Welcome AMD users to what we (Intel CPU users) have had for a while now."


----------



## Nickos

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Kuivamaa*
> 
> Σωστά.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It appears that mantle likes cores or threads (total raw processing power is generally higher on a vishera vs an i5). But that's all questionable till we get actual reviews and not DICE numbers.


That's right we'll have to wait. But it's a good start for AMD to use the hype and increase their share in the CPU market and be even more competitive against Nvidia in order to reduce the ridiculous prices we see nowadays.


----------



## Kuivamaa

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nickos*
> 
> That's right we'll have to wait. But it's a good start for AMD to use the hype and increase their share in the CPU market and be even more competitive against Nvidia in order to reduce the ridiculous prices we see nowadays.


Too bad no major MMORPG is poised to get mantle any time soon. Give WoW engine a big fat open world raid boss (like Oondasta) ,3-4 raid groups shooting it at the same time and even an an overclocked 3960X will drop to the teens or below.


----------



## sugarhell

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RagingCain*
> 
> Which MMORPG would you like to talk about? EVE Online? WoW? AION? Champions? STO? The Secret World? Final Fantasy XIV?
> 
> High end multi-GPU system? Like Quad SLI with a pair of GTX 690s or SLI GTX 780 TIs?
> 
> Which RTS would you like to talk about? SCII? Act of War? C&C? Supreme Commander Series? Total War Series? Planetary Annihilation Alpha/Beta?
> 
> The problem is, I can't seem to find a CPU bottleneck at 4400+ MHz. I would anticipate that a R9 290X in Crossfire doesn't have one either. If you would like any more information from me, or what games you would like tested conclusively, you can PM me. Here is my main library of games: http://mysteamgauge.com/account?username=RagingCain
> 
> Now, do I think Mantle is helping you get any more resources? One could look at it like that, but if your CPU is also relatively idle, and there are no games taking advantage of that, what did any high-end system gain?


You are lying when you say that you dont get cpu bottlenecked on sc2 total war and other big rts games. And this is with a 3930k at 5ghz


----------



## skupples

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Imouto*
> 
> Try a MMORPG with tons of players on screen.
> Try a high end multi-GPU system.
> Try a RTS wtih tons of units on screen.
> 
> If you can't figure how having more resources on your CPU is always better you're beyond help.


I have yet to run into an mmo that uses more than two cores. Please let me know when one comes to market.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Kuivamaa*
> 
> Too bad no major MMORPG is poised to get mantle any time soon. Give WoW engine a big fat open world raid boss (like Oondasta) ,3-4 raid groups shooting it at the same time and even an an overclocked 3960X will drop to the teens or below.


MMO's (all of them as far as I know) suffer from a lack of core & thread usage.

Is it impossible to make directX use more than two cores & one thread? No! So why don't we see more games doing so?


----------



## Bitech

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *5entinel*
> 
> Do I have to keep giving reminders or will people behave in here?


People behaving? On the Internet (especially on this website)? When that happens moderating this forum won't be a babysitting job anymore!

Like it'll ever happen.


----------



## RagingCain

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *sugarhell*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *RagingCain*
> 
> Which MMORPG would you like to talk about? EVE Online? WoW? AION? Champions? STO? The Secret World? Final Fantasy XIV?
> 
> High end multi-GPU system? Like Quad SLI with a pair of GTX 690s or SLI GTX 780 TIs?
> 
> Which RTS would you like to talk about? SCII? Act of War? C&C? Supreme Commander Series? Total War Series? Planetary Annihilation Alpha/Beta?
> 
> The problem is, I can't seem to find a CPU bottleneck at 4400+ MHz. I would anticipate that a R9 290X in Crossfire doesn't have one either. If you would like any more information from me, or what games you would like tested conclusively, you can PM me. Here is my main library of games: http://mysteamgauge.com/account?username=RagingCain
> 
> Now, do I think Mantle is helping you get any more resources? One could look at it like that, but if your CPU is also relatively idle, and there are no games taking advantage of that, what did any high-end system gain?
> 
> 
> 
> You are lying when you say that you dont get cpu bottlenecked on sc2 total war and other big rts games. And this is with a 3930k at 5ghz
Click to expand...

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *skupples*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Imouto*
> 
> Try a MMORPG with tons of players on screen.
> Try a high end multi-GPU system.
> Try a RTS wtih tons of units on screen.
> 
> If you can't figure how having more resources on your CPU is always better you're beyond help.
> 
> 
> 
> *I have yet to run into an mmo that uses more than two cores.* Please let me know when one comes to market.
Click to expand...

^ This is a big part of it.

Any bottleneck that can be forced/found is usually from poor programming, poor multi-threading. In a well programmed conditions there is no bottle necking. I absolutely have no issues in StarCraft II though specifically, perhaps PM and we can discuss settings without derailing thread.

I also have a tweaked system with 6 drives in RAID-0 for games though.

Also the post I wrote above I addressed possibly missing context for other users, so be sure to read my edit









One logical processor maxed out, while the rest are idle, is not a hardware CPU bottleneck, its piss poor programming. Mantle won't "alleviate" this, programmers will have to utilize various resources to take advantage of Mantle, it isn't automatic. Arguably, had developers utilized my CPU threads, there would be no performance issues. Be careful throwing that word around.


----------



## skupples

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Bitech*
> 
> People behaving? On the Internet (especially on this website)?
> Moderating this forum is forever a babysitting job.


acting like ocn is a hot bed for ignorance, compared to all other heavily visited tech forums. Priceless.


----------



## Kuivamaa

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *skupples*
> 
> I have yet to run into an mmo that uses more than two cores. Please let me know when one comes to market.
> MMO's (all of them as far as I know) suffer from a lack of core & thread usage.
> 
> Is it impossible to make directX use more than two cores & one thread? No! So why don't we see more games doing so?


Well technically WoW,GW2,FFXIV:RR etc use more than two cores but they are all limited by ST performance. DX11 deals with multithreaded rendering much,much better but alas, DX11 games are still ST bound, just not as much as DX9, that's where mantle comes in. I sure do hope it is a major success because it will lead nvidia to push their own version. If only we had this tech back in the day of wintergrasp battles


----------



## skupples

Nvidia pushing their own version of mantle is probably the worst thing they can do.

Just think. A year from now.

ps3, xb360, ps4, xb1, mantle, dx11, dx9, nvcrust


----------



## Ultracarpet

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *skupples*
> 
> Nvidia pushing their own version of mantle is probably the worst thing they can do.
> 
> Just think. A year from now.
> 
> ps3, xb360, ps4, xb1, mantle, dx11, dx9, nvcrust


They should probably do what amd did to their g-sync and push to just use opengl.. Isnt mantle just a modified version of it?


----------



## skupples

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ultracarpet*
> 
> They should probably do what amd did to their g-sync and push to just use opengl.. Isnt mantle just a modified version of it?


AMD's freesync is a whole other ball of wax.


----------



## Kuivamaa

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *skupples*
> 
> Nvidia pushing their own version of mantle is probably the worst thing they can do.
> 
> Just think. A year from now.
> 
> ps3, xb360, ps4, xb1, mantle, dx11, dx9, nvcrust


PS3 and 360 will fade away, DX9 is dying. It's all about DX11 and the two next gen consoles. Now console code is supposed to be (to an extend) reusable under mantle so MMO devs (that don't do consoles) won't be doing mantle, most likely. Well there's the chance for nvidia to make a push-PC exclusives.


----------



## Imouto

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RagingCain*
> 
> Which MMORPG would you like to talk about? EVE Online? WoW? AION? Champions? STO? The Secret World? Final Fantasy XIV?


All! All MMORPGs tank when you have tons of chars on screen. Try TERA Online in the main city or AION in a fortress siege for example. Both are F2P.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RagingCain*
> 
> High end multi-GPU system? Like Quad SLI with a pair of GTX 690s or SLI GTX 780 TIs?


Your own SLI 780 Ti should do. I really can't believe that your 3770K isn't holding it back.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RagingCain*
> 
> Which RTS would you like to talk about? SCII? Act of War? C&C? Supreme Commander Series? Total War Series? Planetary Annihilation Alpha/Beta?


Again, all. The limited amount of units, map size or even a slider letting you choose makes it pretty clear. You even have an "CPU Ultra" option in Starcraft II.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RagingCain*
> 
> The problem is, I can't seem to find a CPU bottleneck at 4400+ MHz. I would anticipate that a R9 290X in Crossfire doesn't have one either. If you would like any more information from me, or what games you would like tested conclusively, you can PM me. Here is my main library of games: http://mysteamgauge.com/account?username=RagingCain


The problem is that you can't even compute how having free resources on your CPU can help your mins or allow you to set higher ingame settings for CPU bound options.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RagingCain*
> 
> Now, do I think Mantle is helping you get any more resources? One could look at it like that, but if your CPU is also relatively idle, and there are no games taking advantage of that, what did any high-end system gain?


I highly doubt that you can't find a CPU bound game with your 780 Ti SLI.


----------



## RagingCain

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Imouto*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *RagingCain*
> 
> Which MMORPG would you like to talk about? EVE Online? WoW? AION? Champions? STO? The Secret World? Final Fantasy XIV?
> 
> 
> 
> All! All MMORPGs tank when you have tons of chars on screen. Try TERA Online in the main city or AION in a fortress siege for example. Both are F2P.
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *RagingCain*
> 
> High end multi-GPU system? Like Quad SLI with a pair of GTX 690s or SLI GTX 780 TIs?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Your own SLI 780 Ti should do. I really can't believe that your 3770K isn't holding it back.
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *RagingCain*
> 
> Which RTS would you like to talk about? SCII? Act of War? C&C? Supreme Commander Series? Total War Series? Planetary Annihilation Alpha/Beta?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Again, all. The limited amount of units, map size or even a slider letting you choose makes it pretty clear. You even have an "CPU Ultra" option in Starcraft II.
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *RagingCain*
> 
> The problem is, I can't seem to find a CPU bottleneck at 4400+ MHz. I would anticipate that a R9 290X in Crossfire doesn't have one either. If you would like any more information from me, or what games you would like tested conclusively, you can PM me. Here is my main library of games: http://mysteamgauge.com/account?username=RagingCain
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> The problem is that you can't even compute how having free resources on your CPU can help your mins or allow you to set higher ingame settings for CPU bound options.
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *RagingCain*
> 
> Now, do I think Mantle is helping you get any more resources? One could look at it like that, but if your CPU is also relatively idle, and there are no games taking advantage of that, what did any high-end system gain?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I highly doubt that you can't find a CPU bound game with your 780 Ti SLI.
Click to expand...

Are you confusing poor threading/poor CPU utilization as a CPU Bottleneck?


----------



## Imouto

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *skupples*
> 
> I have yet to run into an mmo that uses more than two cores. Please let me know when one comes to market. MMO's (all of them as far as I know) suffer from a lack of core & thread usage.


And that's the point, having a better multithread usage. That's an engine task. If UE4 gets Mantle we will see a lot of these korean MMORPGs with better multithreaded performance. I bet their publishers would love to get rid of the daily thread complaining about performance with high end systems.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *skupples*
> 
> Is it impossible to make directX use more than two cores & one thread? No! So why don't we see more games doing so?


Because as Repi said that driver command lists "is fundamentally broken in DX".


----------



## Imouto

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RagingCain*
> 
> Are you confusing poor threading/poor CPU utilization as a CPU Bottleneck?


Are you deflecting already?


----------



## RagingCain

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Imouto*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *RagingCain*
> 
> Are you confusing poor threading/poor CPU utilization as a CPU Bottleneck?
> 
> 
> 
> Are you deflecting already?
Click to expand...

How about this, what is your definition of a CPU Bottleneck?


----------



## Slomo4shO

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RagingCain*
> 
> Are you confusing poor threading/poor CPU utilization as a CPU Bottleneck?


Well, it is technically a developer induced CPU bottleneck.


----------



## Bitech

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *skupples*
> 
> acting like ocn is a hot bed for ignorance, compared to all other heavily visited tech forums. Priceless.


bring other tech forums into this and making comparisons = even more priceless


----------



## Imouto

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RagingCain*
> 
> How about this, what is your definition of a CPU Bottleneck?


If your game is maxing a single/all core/thread and your GPU has low usage you have a CPU bottleneck.
If your game isn't even maxing a single core and your GPU has low usage you have a CPU bottleneck.
If your game has low CPU usage across cores/threads and your GPU has low usage you have a CPU bottleneck.

You can blame the developer, the publisher, Windows, the Pope or whatever you want. You're CPU limited.


----------



## Apolladan

so basically this is useful only to people who are

a) CPU limited on a reasonable budget (AMD users)

b) extreme enthusiasts with tri or even quad sli/crossfire configurations

that's pretty cool actually i don't think nvidia users have anything to worry about, if anything it shows you how far directx11 has come


----------



## RagingCain

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Imouto*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *RagingCain*
> 
> How about this, what is your definition of a CPU Bottleneck?
> 
> 
> 
> If your game is maxing a single/all core/thread and your GPU has low usage you have a CPU bottleneck.
> If your game isn't even maxing a single core and your GPU has low usage you have a CPU bottleneck.
> If your game has low CPU usage across cores/threads and your GPU has low usage you have a CPU bottleneck.
> 
> You can blame the developer, the publisher, Windows, the Pope or whatever you want. You're CPU limited.
Click to expand...

CPU Limited != CPU Bottleneck

Sure, anyone can be CPU limited, a game maybe limited to 1 FPS if the engine makes it so.

Not CPU Bottlenecks:
3770K @ 3.500 GHz, 99% CPU Utilization on all 8 threads. 99% GPU Utilization.
3570K @ 3.500 GHz, 99% CPU Utilization on all 4 threads. 99% GPU Utilization.
3930K @ 4.6 GHz, 99% CPU Utilization on all 12 threads. 99% GPU Utilization on each GPU (SLI.)
2500K @ 5.0 GHz, 50% CPU Utilization on two threads, 99% GPU Utilization.

CPU Limited/Poor Threading:
3770K @ 4.7GHz, 12.5% CPU Utilization, 100% on one thread. 45% GPU Utilization.
3570K @ 4.0 GHz, 50% CPU Utilization, 100% on two threads. 45% GPU Utilization on each GPU (SLI.)

Potential CPU Bottleneck:
3770K @ *4.4 GHz, 99% CPU Utilization on all 8 threads.* *45% GPU Utilization.*
I state potential it could be drivers, it also could be poor frame rendering from the game engine. IF those are non-issues, one would surmise you have a legitimate bottleneck by CPU.


----------



## Taint3dBulge

havent even played 10 min. and 2 lock ups waiting to get back into fav server. all are full.. Not a good sign. Havnt had a lock up in awhile... Well till tonight lol.


----------



## Slomo4shO

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RagingCain*
> 
> CPU Limited != CPU Bottleneck


Seems you need an understanding of the word...
Quote:


> bot·tle·neck
> [bot-l-nek]Show IPA
> noun
> 2. a place or stage in a process *at which progress is impeded.*


Let me know if you still have doubts...


----------



## RagingCain

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Slomo4shO*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *RagingCain*
> 
> CPU Limited != CPU Bottleneck
> 
> 
> 
> Seems you need an understanding of the word...
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> bot·tle·neck
> [bot-l-nek]Show IPA
> noun
> 2. a place or stage in a process *at which progress is impeded.*
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Let me know if you still have doubts...
Click to expand...

You are absolutely correct on the definition, with your sarcasm intended for me, you just got blindsided by your own comment a few posts back:
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Slomo4shO*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *RagingCain*
> 
> Are you confusing poor threading/poor CPU utilization as a CPU Bottleneck?
> 
> 
> 
> Well, it is technically a developer induced CPU bottleneck.
Click to expand...

Thereby making it a software "bottleneck" creating CPU limited/bound situations. Overclocking the CPU or even replacing entirely won't remove the bottleneck, so how is it a "CPU bottleneck"?

That is what Mantle is all about. Trying something different, different CPU usage, GPU DRAW_CALLs etc.


----------



## Awooboowoo

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Slomo4shO*
> 
> Seems you need an understanding of the word...
> Let me know if you still have doubts...


If you can't reasonably improve performance by replacing the cpu with a better one, its pretty misleading to call it a cpu bottleneck. CPU limited is a much more accurate expression.


----------



## NihilOC

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RagingCain*
> 
> You are absolutely correct on the definition, with your sarcasm intended for me, you just got blindsided by your own comment a few posts back:
> Thereby making it a software "bottleneck" creating CPU limited/bound situations. Overclocking the CPU or even replacing entirely won't remove the bottleneck, so how is it a bottleneck?


Are developers that can't be bothered to multithread DX really going to support mantle?


----------



## Imouto

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RagingCain*
> 
> CPU Limited != CPU Bottleneck
> 
> Sure, anyone can be CPU limited, a game maybe limited to 1 FPS if the engine makes it so.


You don't even know what "bottleneck" means. If adding CPU power/enhancements you get better performance you're CPU bottlenecked. i.e:

Running an AMD CPU and changing to an Intel one and seeing how your FPS is boosted.
Running an Intel CPU and changing to a newer gen.
Running an Intel CPU and overclocking it.

With that given code the problem is most of the time your CPU.

Anyway you're just proving my point. You find no problem with your CPU running crappy code and leaving your GPUs with low loads. Mantle is fixing that. It made a really well threaded game even better removing the crappy DX path.


----------



## Slomo4shO

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RagingCain*
> 
> You are absolutely correct on the definition, with your sarcasm intended for me, you just got blindsided by your own comment a few posts back:
> Thereby making it a software "bottleneck" creating CPU limited/bound situations.


Not at all, hence why I said developer induced CPU bottleneck. It is both a software and hardware based bottleneck. The software component is due to the poor threading, the hardware end is the single thread being limited by the single CPU core capacity.


----------



## Imouto

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Awooboowoo*
> 
> If you can't reasonably improve performance by replacing the cpu with a better one, its pretty misleading to call it a cpu bottleneck. CPU limited is a much more accurate expression.


It's the CPU what's feeding the GPU and not the other way around. If the CPU can't keep the GPU fed it's a CPU bottleneck.


----------



## Slomo4shO

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Awooboowoo*
> 
> If you can't reasonably improve performance by replacing the cpu with a better one, its pretty misleading to call it a cpu bottleneck. CPU limited is a much more accurate expression.


Honestly, what is the distinction? Whether the single core is "limited" or whether all cores are taxed and the CPU is "bottlenecked" the end result is the same. If IPC of a single thread can be increased by replacing the CPU then does that not imply that a bottleneck exists when a single core is "limited"?


----------



## RagingCain

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *NihilOC*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *RagingCain*
> 
> You are absolutely correct on the definition, with your sarcasm intended for me, you just got blindsided by your own comment a few posts back:
> Thereby making it a software "bottleneck" creating CPU limited/bound situations. Overclocking the CPU or even replacing entirely won't remove the bottleneck, so how is it a bottleneck?
> 
> 
> 
> Are developers that can't be bothered to multithread DX really going to support mantle?
Click to expand...

That's what a lot of us are unsure of. Is Mantle easier enough to encourage programmers to essentially figure it out/stop being lazy.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Imouto*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *RagingCain*
> 
> CPU Limited != CPU Bottleneck
> 
> Sure, anyone can be CPU limited, a game maybe limited to 1 FPS if the engine makes it so.
> 
> 
> 
> You don't even know what "bottleneck" means. If adding CPU power/enhancements you get better performance you're CPU bottlenecked. i.e:
> 
> Running an AMD CPU and changing to an Intel one and seeing how your FPS is boosted.
> Running an Intel CPU and changing to a newer gen.
> Running an Intel CPU and overclocking it.
> 
> With that given code the problem is most of the time your CPU.
> 
> Anyway you're just proving my point. You find no problem with your CPU running crappy code and leaving your GPUs with low loads. Mantle is fixing that. It made a really well threaded game even better removing the crappy DX path.
Click to expand...

I claimed I had no problem? I believe I claimed I had no CPU bottleneck. Which I don't, I barely have a single title I am CPU bound/limited in due to crappy programming at 5.1 GHz on my 3770K.

Mantle doesn't fix anything, at least not yet. Mantle requires people to do good threading/optimizations, which arguably can be done in DirectX 11, if anybody was willing to do the work.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Slomo4shO*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *RagingCain*
> 
> You are absolutely correct on the definition, with your sarcasm intended for me, you just got blindsided by your own comment a few posts back:
> Thereby making it a software "bottleneck" creating CPU limited/bound situations.
> 
> 
> 
> Not at all, hence why I said developer induced CPU bottleneck. It is both a software and hardware based bottleneck. The software component is due to the poor threading, the hardware end is the single thread being limited by the single CPU core capacity.
Click to expand...

I don't know what else to tell you other than you are wrong because your concept of what is a "bottleneck" is confused.


----------



## Slomo4shO

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RagingCain*
> 
> I don't know what else to tell you other than you are wrong because your concept of what is a "bottleneck" is confused.


Oh, the irony...


----------



## SkyNetSTI

So...!? Is it worth to swap my gtx 780 with 290?


----------



## damnwebsite

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Imouto*
> 
> Try a MMORPG with tons of players on screen.
> Try a high end multi-GPU system.
> Try a RTS wtih tons of units on screen.
> 
> If you can't figure how having more resources on your CPU is always better you're beyond help.


this, my pc lags playing civ5 with max players/max map size


----------



## Slomo4shO

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SkyNetSTI*
> 
> So...!? Is it worth to swap my gtx 780 with 290?


Too early to tell... Probably better to wait for the next generation of chips to switch since mantle adaption is going to be slow.


----------



## Artev

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Awooboowoo*
> 
> If you can't reasonably improve performance by replacing the cpu with a better one, its pretty misleading to call it a cpu bottleneck. CPU limited is a much more accurate expression.


----------



## Imouto

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RagingCain*
> 
> That's what a lot of us are unsure of. Is Mantle easier enough to encourage programmers to essentially figure it out/stop being lazy.
> I claimed I had no problem? I believe I claimed I had no CPU bottleneck. Which I don't, I barely have a single title I am CPU bound/limited in due to crappy programming at 5.1 GHz on my 3770K.


When your concept of bottleneck is so wrong your claims are pretty void.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RagingCain*
> 
> Mantle doesn't fix anything, at least not yet. Mantle requires people to do good threading/optimizations, which arguably can be done in DirectX 11, if anybody was worth their weight into program.
> I don't know what else to tell you other than you are wrong because your concept of what is a "bottleneck" is confused.


Well, it fixed the bad performance in the 290X CF system in the DICE example. 78 vs 116 FPS is pretty awesome. That was a CPU bottleneck because the CPU couldn't keep the GPUs fed. Same with the other examples.

Just imagine a road being able to drive 1000 cars/hour to the city. If some of the cars start moving slowly, police starts a drug inspection or start snowing you have a road bottleneck. You're not road limited, the road is the same.


----------



## Clocknut

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *5entinel*
> 
> Could we stay on topic thanks? This is not suppose to be whatever brand you are a fan of. This thread is about mantle


I kinda hate this site's member for this reason. May be u should fix this.

Any Mantle topic, they bring in GSync/NVAPI, Any G-sync topic they bring in Mantle. Any win8 thread they tell u how awesome win7 is. ffs it is just a win8 update thread, why bring in startmenu prob/win7.


----------



## th3illusiveman

So.. where are the drivers?


----------



## tinmann

You just had to see this coming. Everyone's going to have a different way of seeing things and that's what I love about this site. Because between sorting out the truth from the rumors, the information from the misinformation you will actually learn something you didn't know before. Why? Because it will lead you to seek out the truth, to search farther than these webpages and take you to sites you probably never would have visited otherwise. It's like a never ending odyssey. Now let lighten things up a little. How about a song?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gnIZ7RMuLpU


----------



## PostalTwinkie

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *th3illusiveman*
> 
> So.. where are the drivers?


Soon™

Best guess within 24 to 48 hours....hopefully.


----------



## keikei

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *th3illusiveman*
> 
> So.. where are the drivers?


Not here yet, soon though.
Quote:


> AMDGaming ‏@AMDGaming 8h
> 
> We are putting the finishing touches on the AMD Catalyst™ 14.1 Beta driver, which enables support for Mantle. We appreciate your patience.


----------



## duox

Is it going to work with the m290x in laptops ? Until the AMD cards stop price gouging this doesnt mean a ton for me but I would go ahead and go amd in the next laptop i purchase if it works on the mobile 290x.


----------



## deafboy

Pretty much what I expected...

yay for overhyped tech...


----------



## grunion

Uninstalling TI


----------



## ZealotKi11er

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RagingCain*
> 
> That's what a lot of us are unsure of. Is Mantle easier enough to encourage programmers to essentially figure it out/stop being lazy.
> I claimed I had no problem? I believe I claimed I had no CPU bottleneck. Which I don't, I barely have a single title I am CPU bound/limited in due to crappy programming at 5.1 GHz on my 3770K.
> 
> Mantle doesn't fix anything, at least not yet. Mantle requires people to do good threading/optimizations, which arguably can be done in DirectX 11, if anybody was willing to do the work.
> I don't know what else to tell you other than you are wrong because your concept of what is a "bottleneck" is confused.


You dont get it do you? Even if there is no faster Desktop CPU then 4960X you can still be a CPU bottlenecked. Yes a 3770K OCed will bottleneck a lot of cards out there but not to the point you are getting under 60 fps so people don't care. To define a CPU bottleneck is easy. If a faster CPU (Future CPU) will get you more fps in the game with same GPU then you have CPU bottleneck. CPU utilization means nothing. The potential a CPU might have means nothing in real world applications and games.


----------



## bencher

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *grunion*
> 
> Uninstalling TI












Looks at your sig**


----------



## twitchyzero

does eyefinity have glaring issues on Hawaii GPU or is that strictly on GCN and older chips?

If they can improve eyefinity I may just jump back to the red team because Im plan on rocking the 3570K for a long, long time

then again for games in a few years down the road i wonder if they'll be GPU-bound or 3570K bound for 3x1080p


----------



## skupples

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Clocknut*
> 
> I kinda hate this site's member for this reason. May be u should fix this.
> 
> Any Mantle topic, they bring in GSync/NVAPI, Any G-sync topic they bring in Mantle. Any win8 thread they tell u how awesome win7 is. ffs it is just a win8 update thread, why bring in startmenu prob/win7.


The only way to deduce the gains made from mantle is to compare it to other things. So, Mantle on Vs. Mantle off. Mantle on (amd) Vs. GK110 on DX11. Since i'm one of the only people who has mentioned NVAPI, I take offense to your comments, as I was not trying to derail the thread. I was only trying to gain a better understanding of the differences between the two. A few people were gracious enough to respond, with hard facts on the differences. Those posts were actually an overall benefit to the thread, as many many people are confused as to how/what NVAPI works/is. Me being one of them, until 3 hours ago.

So far this "mantle topic" has been 99% devoid of gysnc. One statement was made towards it. It is completely intelligible, thus doesn't count, & the other one is me saying "sync is a whole other ball of wax." So far this thread has been 90% on topic. 5entinel hasn't had to lock the thread, & I haven't noticed any deleted posts. That's pretty damned good for an AMD product news thread. You should be congratulating your fellow OCN member, not ranting & raving while breaching TOS with offensive abbreviations.

Opinions, butt holes, stuff...
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *twitchyzero*
> 
> does eyefinity have glaring issues on Hawaii GPU or is that strictly on GCN and older chips?
> 
> If they can improve eyefinity I may just jump back to the red team because Im plan on rocking the 3570K for a long, long time
> 
> then again for games in a few years down the road i wonder if they'll be GPU-bound or 3570K bound for 3x1080p


As of right now, from what I understand @ least... Frame pacing is non-issue on Hawaii with xfire+eyefinity. The only issue with mantle & eyefinity is portrait support & xfire. Both will be resolved quickly. (hopefully)


----------



## FallenFaux

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *grunion*
> 
> Uninstalling TI


This, but with my 780.


----------



## rdr09

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SkyNetSTI*
> 
> So...!? Is it worth to swap my gtx 780 with 290?


i don't think so. just oc your 780 a bit.


----------



## skupples

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *rdr09*
> 
> i don't think so. just oc your 780 a bit.


Would have to agree. I'm extremely interested in switching back to the red team for the first time in 5 years, but i'll likely be holding out for GCN 2.0. By then we should have full understanding of mantle's implications on the market.

It seems to me some companies may end up really disliking it for the simple fact that they may view it as profit reducer. I draw this opinion from the fact it will allow you to do more with less hardware.


----------



## RagingCain

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ZealotKi11er*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *RagingCain*
> 
> That's what a lot of us are unsure of. Is Mantle easier enough to encourage programmers to essentially figure it out/stop being lazy.
> I claimed I had no problem? I believe I claimed I had no CPU bottleneck. Which I don't, I barely have a single title I am CPU bound/limited in due to crappy programming at 5.1 GHz on my 3770K.
> 
> Mantle doesn't fix anything, at least not yet. Mantle requires people to do good threading/optimizations, which arguably can be done in DirectX 11, if anybody was willing to do the work.
> I don't know what else to tell you other than you are wrong because your concept of what is a "bottleneck" is confused.
> 
> 
> 
> You dont get it do you? Even if there is no faster Desktop CPU then 4960X you can still be a CPU bottlenecked. Yes a 3770K OCed will bottleneck a lot of cards out there but not to the point you are getting under 60 fps so people don't care. To define a CPU bottleneck is easy. If a faster CPU (Future CPU) will get you more fps in the game with same GPU then you have CPU bottleneck..
Click to expand...

Actually, this is identical to what I said. Perhaps re-read it with this mentality.
Quote:


> CPU utilization means nothing. The potential a CPU might have means nothing in real world applications and games


Well this is just wrong. Of course if software has imposed limits it is the cause of said limitation. Not the CPU itself.


----------



## looniam

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RagingCain*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> CPU utilization means nothing. The potential a CPU might have means nothing in real world applications and games
> 
> 
> 
> Well this is just wrong. Of course if software has imposed limits it is the cause of said limitation. Not the CPU itself.
Click to expand...

DING! DING! DING!

we have a winner!

if software didn't impose artificial limitations on the cpu *cough* horrible console ports *cough*, then why is there mantle?


----------



## bencher

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *looniam*
> 
> DING! DING! DING!
> 
> we have a winner!
> 
> if software didn't impose artificial limitations on the cpu *cough* horrible console ports *cough*, then why is there mantle?


Direct X?


----------



## grunion

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *looniam*
> 
> DING! DING! DING!
> 
> we have a winner!
> 
> if software didn't impose artificial limitations on the cpu *cough* horrible console ports *cough*, then why is there mantle?


Gosh...

Because Nvidia has moar FPS of course!!!!!

I'm really more interested in the boost older GCN cards will get.


----------



## KyadCK

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *skupples*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Imouto*
> 
> Try a MMORPG with tons of players on screen.
> Try a high end multi-GPU system.
> Try a RTS wtih tons of units on screen.
> 
> If you can't figure how having more resources on your CPU is always better you're beyond help.
> 
> 
> 
> I have yet to run into an mmo that uses more than two cores. Please let me know when one comes to market.
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Kuivamaa*
> 
> Too bad no major MMORPG is poised to get mantle any time soon. Give WoW engine a big fat open world raid boss (like Oondasta) ,3-4 raid groups shooting it at the same time and even an an overclocked 3960X will drop to the teens or below.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> MMO's (all of them as far as I know) suffer from a lack of core & thread usage.
> 
> Is it impossible to make directX use more than two cores & one thread? No! So why don't we see more games doing so?
Click to expand...

Planetside 2 uses well north of 25% on my CPU. There's one.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ultracarpet*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *skupples*
> 
> Nvidia pushing their own version of mantle is probably the worst thing they can do.
> 
> Just think. A year from now.
> 
> ps3, xb360, ps4, xb1, mantle, dx11, dx9, nvcrust
> 
> 
> 
> They should probably do what amd did to their g-sync and push to just use opengl.. Isnt mantle just a modified version of it?
Click to expand...

Uh... No.

Mantle is a low-level API that requires driver support. While they are trying to re-do all the custom commands in OpenGL as well, that only removes the dependence on the API, not on the driver.

Also, everything OpenGL side would be Arch Specific, just like Mantle's API.


----------



## looniam

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bencher*
> 
> Direct X?


YES!

now would you like to keep the prizes you have already won or do you risk it all for whats behind door #2 to answer the question:

is DirectX software or hardware?


----------



## Deadboy90

YES!!!!! Now I cant wait to see those Kaveri laptop numbers with and without mantle!


----------



## mboner1

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *looniam*
> 
> YES!
> 
> now would you like to keep the prizes you have already won or do you risk it all for whats behind door #2 to answer the question:
> 
> is DirectX software or hardware?


con•de•scen•sion

1. an act or instance of condescending.
2. behavior that is patronizing or condescending.
3. voluntary assumption of equality with a person regarded as inferior.

Thought i would save you the trouble of looking it up for when people tell you that's what you are guilty of









Looking forward to my mantle


----------



## Ized

DayZ standalone gobbles up to 90% of core #1 on my 4.5Ghz 4770K, I pray to the sweet gaming overlords mantle can help with this mess.


----------



## Kinaesthetic

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ized*
> 
> DayZ standalone gobbles up to 90% of core #1 on my 4.5Ghz 4770K, I pray to the sweet gaming overlords mantle can help with this mess.


As far as right now, DayZ seems to have no plans for using Mantle. I couldn't find any developer comments regarding whether they are going to use Mantle or not. So I'd take a gander it would be the latter.


----------



## looniam

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mboner1*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *looniam*
> 
> YES!
> 
> now would you like to keep the prizes you have already won or do you risk it all for whats behind door #2 to answer the question:
> 
> is DirectX software or hardware?
> 
> 
> 
> con•de•scen•sion
> 
> 1. an act or instance of condescending.
> 2. behavior that is patronizing or condescending.
> 3. voluntary assumption of equality with a person regarded as inferior.
> 
> Thought i would save you the trouble of looking it up for when people tell you that's what you are guilty of
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Looking forward to my mantle
Click to expand...

see its the negative attitude express towards others without trying to understand what is being pointed out thats the problem here.

its one thing if you care to view my attempted humorous response as being condescending but it is entirely a different matter to infer that my vocabulary and possible intelligence lacks knowing its definition.

i did rather well in all my college comp and lit classes. (20 years ago) so as much as i appreciate your attempt at being helpful, its not necessary.


----------



## bencher

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ized*
> 
> DayZ standalone gobbles up to 90% of core #1 on my 4.5Ghz 4770K, I pray to the sweet gaming overlords mantle can help with this mess.


Mantle wont help with that.

That is just bad programming. Games like that I don't buy.


----------



## Cyberion

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Cyro999*
> 
> Sorely dissapointed.
> 
> We needed the new API, the better use of CPU resources, but mantle GCN acceleration? The only reason this is pulling close to 10% performance gains in bf4 is because it's CPU limited at times, at least for some slow frames, even on such a hardware setup.
> 
> This isn't some 15 or 30% that AMD fans hyped it up to be, and i don't remember mantle being advertised as "uses cpu really efficiently!! oh and it also might boost radeon by a few %" at GPU14 or other events.
> 
> It seems the main feature of mantle (more efficient usage of cpu) will be thrown to all GPU users, while the gcn acceleration is hardly relevant.
> 
> Of course, if the CPU stuff is radeon only.. 120hz users would be forced to go AMD GPU, because 4670k+mantle+280x would outperform 4770k+dual780ti if they were trying to target a smooth 120fps in Battlefield 4, due to CPU limits exposed here. It would also be a massive blow to the ecosystem


Zomg it didn't meet the expectations of all of the hype-sters? Rumors are rumors and this is just the beginning of Mantle. Don't jump to conclusions based on early releases. Look at a BF4. Unplayable dish of garbage and now it's at least playable.

Mantle is purely software. It works on the 7xxx series and newer cards, possibly supporting Nvidia cards in the future, and all you need it to install the drivers to get 10 extra frames? Count me in. This forum consists of enthusiasts who will enjoy any percentage increase in their hardware.


----------



## skupples

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *KyadCK*
> 
> Planetside 2 uses well north of 25% on my CPU. There's one.
> Uh... No.
> 
> Mantle is a low-level API that requires driver support. While they are trying to re-do all the custom commands in OpenGL as well, that only removes the dependence on the API, not on the driver.
> 
> Also, everything OpenGL side would be Arch Specific, just like Mantle's API.


Are you using a quad-core? if so, that's one core... Are you using a 6 core? So, 1.5 core... Are you using an 8 core? OK! Now we are @ 2 cores. Right @ where my statement began. *an mmo that uses more than two cores*

I can name one. Star Citizen.

Cyron,
Quote:


> 120hz users would be forced to go AMD GPU, because 4670k+mantle+280x would outperform 4770k+dual780ti if they were trying to target a smooth 120fps in Battlefield 4


two 780Ti's demolish bf4 on a 120hz+ panel...


----------



## Brutuz

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *vloeibaarglas*
> 
> AMD taking responsibility for their horrible IPC. Devising solution to alleviate AMD cpu bottlenecks.


IPC means absolutely nothing when clock speeds are high enough, case in point with Phenom II...The FX-8350 is generally faster when overclocked because it can make up for the lower IPC.

Same with the 7850k vs an i5 for example, the i5 has vastly higher IPC but the 7850k generally outclocks them meaning to catch up AMD doesn't need to increase IPC quite to Intel levels. Intel has successfully started the clock speed and then the IPC myth...Eugh.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Cyro999*
> 
> Sorely dissapointed.
> 
> We needed the new API, the better use of CPU resources, but mantle GCN acceleration? The only reason this is pulling close to 10% performance gains in bf4 is because it's CPU limited at times, at least for some slow frames, even on such a hardware setup.
> 
> This isn't some 15 or 30% that AMD fans hyped it up to be, and i don't remember mantle being advertised as "uses cpu really efficiently!! oh and it also might boost radeon by a few %" at GPU14 or other events.
> 
> It seems the main feature of mantle (more efficient usage of cpu) will be thrown to all GPU users, while the gcn acceleration is hardly relevant.
> 
> Of course, if the CPU stuff is radeon only.. 120hz users would be forced to go AMD GPU, because 4670k+mantle+280x would outperform 4770k+dual780ti if they were trying to target a smooth 120fps in Battlefield 4, due to CPU limits exposed here. It would also be a massive blow to the ecosystem


The main benefit of it was always for better CPU utilization...Of course it's mainly going to show in CPU bottlenecked games. Only a few people who were getting carried away acted like it'd be massive in every game.

What's not good about the latter? Those of us with HD7950s, R9 290Xs, GTX 770s, GTX 780Tis, etc already generally have _enough_ performance, those running a 4 core AMD APU in a laptop or HTPC could use the extra performance. Not to mention, a 280X and 4670k is far cheaper than dual 780Tis alone which just means cheaper systems that can run 120Hz/4k/whatever which is only good for PC gaming. nVidia needs to work on something to compete/adopt Mantle support or the like. (Hopefully if AMD makes it at least semi-open so we can actually make sure they're not unfairly hobbling nVidia cards with it, of course.)
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Alatar*
> 
> Wasn't Mantle supposed to be mostly used with console ports (read: GPU bottlenecked games) because the "code is mostly compatible" and because "mantle makes porting easy"?
> 
> If that's the case then the biggest group of games mantle targets isn't going to see much benefit.


10% on a 4960X with an 290X, still decent. It'll make porting easier because the ideas/psuedocode behind certain optimizations is (Afaik) compatible even if the code actually isn't. (Which I'm honestly not sure about)
It means we'd likely have less bad console ports and that games that actually bother to max out a CPU (eg. MMORPG, RTS, TBS) would see a decent performance benefit from using it, with some games that don't see a benefit stock maybe seeing one modded. (Eg. Stock Skyrim is even more GPU bottlenecked than modded Skyrim in certain places for me...If Bethesda make a 64bit, Mantle enabled and multi-threaded TES VI/Fallout 4 the sky is really the limit for modding when you consider what they're doing with a 32bit engine that only really uses 2 CPU cores at best.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *NihilOC*
> 
> Are developers that can't be bothered to multithread DX really going to support mantle?


I believe Mantle is easier to multi-thread than DX.


----------



## lynxxyarly

So...where are the 14.1 beta drivers zzzzzz


----------



## george241312

Drivers are nowhere to be seen.
bf4 has extreme netcode problems.
Just found out tick rate is 10
I might never play bf4 again.


----------



## skupples

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *george241312*
> 
> Drivers are nowhere to be seen.
> bf4 has extreme netcode problems.
> Just found out tick rate is 10
> I might never play bf4 again.


You just now found out about the "10 tick" ? I'm pretty sure this has been the case in Battlefield for many iterations of the game.


----------



## Deadboy90

Where are the drivers?


----------



## skupples

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Deadboy90*
> 
> Where are the drivers?


in a safe for another 24-48 hours.

it has yet to be substantiated, but a few people are claiming those lenovo 13.x drivers are actually working. Two people in the other mantle thread have reported massive gains in performance. They how ever, have yet to link any proof. before & after screenshots/benches...

I guess two versions were leaked? idk, the AMD reps have already shot down them being legit, so i'm not sure what these guys are talking about.


----------



## Vagrant Storm

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *skupples*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Deadboy90*
> 
> Where are the drivers?
> 
> 
> 
> in a safe for another 24-48 hours.
Click to expand...

Or else being coded up by sleep deprived programmers as we type. They are probably trying their best to make the debut of Mantle as good as they can and will work on it till the last minute.


----------



## gasoau

It would a bad time for AMD and dice if these drivers flop


----------



## opty165

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *gasoau*
> 
> It would a bad time for AMD and dice if these drivers flop


On OCN, everything AMD is a flop apparently


----------



## skupples

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *opty165*
> 
> On *the internet*, everything AMD is a flop apparently


FTFY

nope, just bulldozer & glide.


----------



## mboner1

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *gasoau*
> 
> It would a bad time for AMD and dice if these drivers flop


I think only the most optimistic would expect the Mantle release to be trouble free.

I mean we are talking about Bf4 here, a game that still loses sound for a entire round, what 2- 3 months after release?.. with a brand new API. If it were a different game i would be more optimistic of a trouble free launch, but at this stage if there's issues with bf4 it's just par for the course. Thief is the first game to be released with mantle in mind after this isn't it?


----------



## opty165

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *skupples*
> 
> FTFY
> 
> nope, just bulldozer & glide.


Please don't tell me you just confused AMD with 3DFX....

EDIT: I must not of read that right the first time. I see what you mean now


----------



## skupples

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *opty165*
> 
> Please don't tell me you just confused AMD with 3DFX....


nope, just threw out the two most flamed things in recent history.

Used glide because it's similar to mantle.


----------



## looniam

btw here is a clip from what neweggs' yolk'd had to report . . .


----------



## opty165

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *looniam*
> 
> btw here is a clip from what neweggs' yolk'd had to report . . .
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!


I can't believe people still think that 45% number from AMD equals 45% FPS increase.....Will the ignorance ever stop.


----------



## Offler

According to BF4 blog it means mainly form how to avoid CPU limitations during gameplay. Rendertime graphs are quite flat without any drops... Thats what matters for me: constant performance without any coughs...


----------



## Themisseble

I have problems with BF4 hope mantle solve it....

0 player map - avg:50 min:35
32 player map - avg:55 min:36
64 player map - avg:67 min:39

- same map...

FX 6300 ... some maps work better if i disable 2 cores


----------



## SpeedyVT

I don't believe this is the whole package yet. I expect even more improvements from Mantle in the future like HSA support which will monumentally increase performance in the games.


----------



## Hattifnatten

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *opty165*
> 
> [/SPOILER]
> 
> I can't believe people still think that 45% number from AMD equals 45% FPS increase.....Will the ignorance ever stop.


IIRCC, there was a 40% increase in framerates with a 7700k and a 290x, which is likely what she referred to (she said 40%, not 45%).


----------



## MrWhiteRX7

From the patch alone I noticed a mild increase in FPS throughout the maps. I'm impressed already even without mantle. *1440p*: Ultra settings, HBAO, etc.. just AA turned off I avg 86fps in Shanghai. In langcang I avg 93fps, Locker it rarely drops under 100fps until there's 70,000 smoke grenades thrown lol (mantle might help this I hope?). This is on a single 290 @ 1165 overclock and 4820k @ 4.2ghz. With 3 cards mantle will probably help with some of the random drops.

Not sure why some people are having such a struggle to play the game.


----------



## Hattifnatten

Anyone got any idea how I can graph the output from perfoverlay.framefilelogenable in Excel? Currently, it looks like this

Frame time, CPU Frame, GPU Frame
5.45, 6.31, 7.34

Which would have been absolutely fine, if it were not all put into the same coloum.


----------



## mboner1

Come on Mantle.. My body is ready!!


----------



## Clukos

Why didn't Dice wait to release the patch along with the drivers supporting it? This is silly.

It's like preloading games, they are like "here get the game, OH NO YOU MUST WAIT"


----------



## revro

for 15 years i had only ati cards and then switched to nvidia only because of AC3. so i would consider myself objective person.
right now we are arguing about assumptions at best, so i would say lets wait will guru3d or other big boys make some comparisons over all of the hw. so i guess we need to wait for 14.1 drivers so other gpus are considered too
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Kuivamaa*
> 
> What are you talking about? Really? Of course you will test this and you will also test an APU paired with a 290X when you want to provide a wide array, it is new tech, you need to see the whole range and cover all bases. The very fact that they provided both extremes (weak cpu+strong gpu and strong cpu+weak gpu) shows they didn't cherry pick.


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ZealotKi11er*
> 
> My main problem in PC for me especially BF3 was CPU bottleneck even at 1440p with 3770K @ 4.6GHz. How i don't have to give Intel more money
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> . Give money when they start making PC CPUs.


would the cpu bottleneck be avoided if you had 2011 socket solution with 3820? thanks for info

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SkyNetSTI*
> 
> So...!? Is it worth to swap my gtx 780 with 290?


i am contemplating the same, but i am kinda seeing at my local vendor countless 290x and 290s that were returned and are now for resale. and i fear that the temps and noise is really that much of an issue ... also red would kinda be bad for my case theme (black yellow) and the 290 trix from saphire, well sapphire have really bad faulty rates for some years ...

best
revro


----------



## FallenFaux

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *revro*
> 
> ...would the cpu bottleneck be avoided if you had 2011 socket solution with 3820? thanks for info...


3770k is Ivy-Bridge and the 3820 is Sandy Bridge. Unless your running multiple GPUs the 3770k is going to be faster all other things being equal.


----------



## rdr09

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *revro*
> 
> for 15 years i had only ati cards and then switched to nvidia only because of AC3. so i would consider myself objective person.
> right now we are arguing about assumptions at best, so i would say lets wait will guru3d or other big boys make some comparisons over all of the hw. so i guess we need to wait for 14.1 drivers so other gpus are considered too
> 
> would the cpu bottleneck be avoided if you had 2011 socket solution with 3820? thanks for info
> i am contemplating the same, but i am kinda seeing at my local vendor countless 290x and 290s that were returned and are now for resale. and i fear that the temps and noise is really that much of an issue ... also red would kinda be bad for my case theme (black yellow) and the 290 trix from saphire, well sapphire have really bad faulty rates for some years ...
> 
> best
> revro


like i told Sky, stick with your 780 and oc it a bit.


----------



## Imouto

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RagingCain*
> 
> Well this is just wrong. Of course if software has imposed limits it is the cause of said limitation. Not the CPU itself.


And the developers of that software will tell you that the API is the bottleneck. And the creators of that API will tell you that the problem is that lazy bastard of Stewie at human resources for not providing more and better software engineers. Then Stewie would tell you that he has 5 sons and wants a daughter badly and became obsessed so he doesn't pay much attention to work. In the end the bottleneck is someone's unborn daughter, way to go.

It doesn't work like that.

You need something done at your CPU to keep your GPU working. If that isn't happening you have a CPU bottleneck. Name it software, IPC, uarch, frequency, amount of physical or logical cores, caches or whatever you want. Break it down all you want until you get a daughter for Stewie.

In a year or whenever TFSM disposes way better CPUs will be launched making that crappy code run good enough to keep your GPUs fed. Then your CPU bottleneck will be gone.

Same happens with Mantle. In the third example with the 290X CF it is removing the CPU bottleneck.


----------



## revro

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FallenFaux*
> 
> 3770k is Ivy-Bridge and the 3820 is Sandy Bridge. Unless your running multiple GPUs the 3770k is going to be faster all other things being equal.


well i plan to run 780 in sli and therefore i plan 2011 socket and the question is if the 40pci lanes help remove cpu bottleneck in case of a 8 threaded cpu in comparison with 1150 socket with 16 pci lanes

thank you

we shall see what mantle will bring, i am already looking forward to some unreal tripple quad test systems from our friends here on ocn









best
revro


----------



## Offler

to revro:

When it comes to CPU bottlenecks in the means of game engines there are 4 separate factors:

a) Performance of the CPU core(s)
b) Bandwidth of memory and effective R/W speeds.
c) Bandwidth of NB/QPI or whatever is interconnecting CPU with RAM and PCI-E
d) Software limitation (in our case DirectX overheads)

One of these is usually the slowest in the chain.

So when are you going to upgrade the CPU you can get mixed results depending on the engine. Also its specific for each engine. Its also expected that future games, will be more resource-consuming and thus chance for hitting CPU bottleneck will be higher.

So picking up new CPU is not only a matter if you are going to run multiple GPUs or not. However its matter of fact that once you will hit CPU bottlenecks. Sooner or later since game developers want to make games more realistic, and that require more polygons, more objects etc.

Edit:
Yes, more PCI-E lanes, are good method for reducing those effects, however even modern DX based engines have trouble with mutliple rendering threads (even now majority of engines can barely handle up to 2 draw call threads). As far I know, Mantle is going to solve this.


----------



## Tsumi

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *revro*
> 
> well i plan to run 780 in sli and therefore i plan 2011 socket and the question is if the 40pci lanes help remove cpu bottleneck in case of a 8 threaded cpu in comparison with 1150 socket with 16 pci lanes
> 
> thank you
> 
> we shall see what mantle will bring, i am already looking forward to some unreal tripple quad test systems from our friends here on ocn
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> best
> revro


PCI-E lanes do not remove CPU bottlenecks. I can't even begin to think why you might begin to think that. If it did, the FX-8350 would be as fast as the 3770k in gaming, as the 990FX has 32 PCI-E 2.0 lanes compared to the 16 PCI-E 3.0 of the 3770k. What additional lanes do is remove bandwidth bottlenecks. Current single GPU cards either don't need more than 8 PCI-E 3.0 lanes, or are barely restricted by it (5% or less).

A CPU bottleneck occurs when the CPU cannot process the data fast enough to keep the GPU(s) working near full capacity. In games with a limited number of primary threads, it doesn't matter how many cores you have because it's limited by those primary threads.

Additionally, the 3770k is a 4-core 8-thread CPU, exactly like the 3820.


----------



## Offler

To Tsumi:
It depends on number of GPU cores, and number of rendering threads.

In case you have 2 gpus and 2 rendering threads this may cause trouble if one PCI-E slot is "primary" directly connected to CPU, while other is connected via SB.

There is performance loss, not much significant (about 5 percent).

In this case CPU bottleneck occurs, but its only a secondary effect. Root cause is usually fact that two cards on two different buses cant be perfectly synchronized.

CPU bottleneck can occur as secondary effect also in case when memory is too slow. CPU utilization will be under 100% and still profiling SW will tell you that rendering of scene was CPU bound, but not because of lacking HW resources on CPU side, but because of memory.


----------



## looniam

Quote:


> As mentioned in our older article from Thursday, AMD discovered a major bug with its Catalyst 14.2 driver at the last minute, which threw a wrench in the works at the company. The driver was originally slated to come out in sync with DICE' update of Battlefield 4 on Thursday. AMD now tells us that their teams have been working overnight to fix the driver, and should have their next status update for us by mid-afternoon EST (New York time), later today. That update doesn't necessarily mean a driver release at that point in time, and so AMD might be forced to label it Catalyst 14.2 beta, keeping up with its calendar-based driver version naming. Catalyst 14.1 beta was expected to ship the first public distribution of Mantle, AMD's ambitious 3D graphics API to rival Direct3D and OpenGL.
> 
> AMD also mentioned a 24 hour exclusive period for press to evaluate the driver before public release, so it looks like your download will be at least 36 hours away.


TechPowerUp


----------



## FallenFaux

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *revro*
> 
> well i plan to run 780 in sli and therefore i plan 2011 socket and the question is if the 40pci lanes help remove cpu bottleneck in case of a 8 threaded cpu in comparison with 1150 socket with 16 pci lanes
> 
> thank you
> 
> we shall see what mantle will bring, i am already looking forward to some unreal tripple quad test systems from our friends here on ocn
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> best
> revro


As other people have said, the PCIe lanes have very little to do with CPU bottlenecks. However I'd like to point out that the effects of running 780s in SLI @ 8x as opposed to 16x on PCIe 3 is negligible. In fact you could get a SKT1150/1155 motherboard with a PLX and chip and still manage dual 16x lanes for the GPUs (with a 1-2% performance overhead). The only real reason I could suggest that you go SKT2011 is if you wanted to run 3+ card in SLI/Crossfire or you needed the extra CPU boost from the Six-Core chips. Since you don't seem to be doing either of those things you would save money and perhaps even have better performance buying a 3770k/4770k.


----------



## cam51037

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *looniam*
> 
> TechPowerUp


Hopefully we'll get an early leak sometime today, but I'm not holding my breath on that either.

Oh well, I guess we'll get it when we get it.


----------



## revro

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FallenFaux*
> 
> As other people have said, the PCIe lanes have very little to do with CPU bottlenecks. However I'd like to point out that the effects of running 780s in SLI @ 8x as opposed to 16x on PCIe 3 is negligible. In fact you could get a SKT1150/1155 motherboard with a PLX and chip and still manage dual 16x lanes for the GPUs (with a 1-2% performance overhead). The only real reason I could suggest that you go SKT2011 is if you wanted to run 3+ card in SLI/Crossfire or you needed the extra CPU boost from the Six-Core chips. Since you don't seem to be doing either of those things you would save money and perhaps even have better performance buying a 3770k/4770k.


well i am actually going for 5930k, i was just asking if there was a problem in case of 1150/1155 with 2 top cards


----------



## mrawesome421

I have no problem with AMD pulling the plug on the Mantle release. Let them at least get it in working order, and not deliver a mess to the public.

I don't care if it takes another month - get it fixed. Glad they caught the bug.


----------



## dantoddd

kinda disappointing. I've been pushing back a system overhaul to see if i should go AMD this time around. now it seems i will be going nvidia after all. 780ti here i come


----------



## mboner1

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mrawesome421*
> 
> I have no problem with AMD pulling the plug on the Mantle release. Let them at least get it in working order, and not deliver a mess to the public.
> 
> I don't care if it takes another month - get it fixed. Glad they caught the bug.


From my reading it seems to be a installation issue? Also read somewhere it will not work with crossfire and eyefinity or if it does it will be with a possibility of stuttering. Supposedly said by AMD themselves.


----------



## Offler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mboner1*
> 
> From my reading it seems to be a installation issue? Also read somewhere it will not work with crossfire and eyefinity or if it does it will be with a possibility of stuttering. Supposedly said by AMD themselves.


In that case the crossfire tests of BF4 dont make sense...

I tried to find some new info about the bug, but nothing so far. So we can only speculate what went wrong...

Anyways, I cant decide whether its good simply to wait for the driver when its finished and bug-free or to have it ASAP


----------



## Kuivamaa

If they stopped a beta driver from launching due to a bug, then it surely is significant.


----------



## bencher

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *revro*
> 
> for 15 years i had only ati cards and then switched to nvidia only because of AC3. so i would consider myself objective person.
> right now we are arguing about assumptions at best, so i would say lets wait will guru3d or other big boys make some comparisons over all of the hw. so i guess we need to wait for 14.1 drivers so other gpus are considered too
> ...
> 
> best
> revro


There is nothing to make assumptions about. Mantle lowers cpu bottleneck which leads to an increase in performance. The amount of increase you experience all depends on your setup and gpu configuration.


----------



## mboner1

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Offler*
> 
> In that case the crossfire tests of BF4 dont make sense...
> 
> I tried to find some new info about the bug, but nothing so far. So we can only speculate what went wrong...
> 
> Anyways, I cant decide whether its good simply to wait for the driver when its finished and bug-free or to have it ASAP


Well this is where i saw the claims that it's a problem with the installation and i will try and re find the claims about crossfire and eyefinity..

http://forum.overclock3d.net/showthread.php?t=60003/AMD+Catalyst+14.1+delayed+due+to+a+last+minute+bug/


----------



## mboner1

Here's the list of issues that may present themselves when using Mantle according to AMD ..

http://www.digitaltrends.com/computing/amd-catalyst-14-1-drivers-coming-soon-mantle-update-now-live/


----------



## the9quad

I get CPU bottlenecked in bf4 which has pretty good multithreading at 1440p ultra. So yeah I'll be glad for mantle so I can have 120fps mins instead of 100 fps mins. Hopefully.

Oh and my thoughts on 24 hour press exclusivity for the new drivers are very similar to this:

I was hungry this morning so I went out for breakfast. I ordered the special with extra crispy bacon. My order came and the bacon was undercooked. I told the waiter and he said don't worry, we have a new improved special with more eggs and I'll also bring you the bacon the way you want it cooked, should take 20 minutes tops. So after 3 hours he comes back and says good news your meal is finally done! Unfortunately these other people need to taste it first and you can eat it after they print out the review in tomorrow's paper. In the meantime here is a picture of your meal!

I said screw it I'm eating cereal.


----------



## skupples

It's definitely strange. They show the strongest numbers with a much more realistic system, but then turn around & say x-fire is still borked.


----------



## Offler

Some info:

http://www.guru3d.com/news_story/update_on_amd_catalyst_14_1_mantle_driver_release.html

AMD:

During the QA process, we identified an installation issue in AMD Catalyst 14.1 that renders it unsuitable for distribution for testing in your labs. We are testing a new build overnight and will update you on its status by mid-afternoon Eastern Standard Time on January 31. We apologize for the delay and appreciate your patience and understanding.

Update does not mean release...


----------



## skupples

from what I understand this installation issue has been rearing it's ugly head for the past few drivers.


----------



## mboner1

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *skupples*
> 
> from what I understand this installation issue has been rearing it's ugly head for the past few drivers.


Titan's use Nvidia drivers, not AMD drivers, that's why your having issues


----------



## Offler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *skupples*
> 
> from what I understand this installation issue has been rearing it's ugly head for the past few drivers.


Well, some time ago I identified few issues when "upgrading" the driver without properly un-installing the previous one. It happened from time to time that some driver-related libraries remained locked by running process and thus not updated. I reported it, but it was never solved.

Whats most interesting that it was never a driver issue, but Windows issue. It was repeatable even with manual reinstallation of the driver using INF file.


----------



## rdr09

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *skupples*
> 
> from what I understand this installation issue has been rearing it's ugly head for the past few drivers.


you're talking about nvidia drivers? this is a mantle thread.

here is the latest . . .

http://www.overclock.net/t/1457203/g3d-geforce-332-21-whql-driver-download/100

but it seems having trouble with BF4. so, if you have a nvidia, it may not be a problem with the game but with the driver.

edit: not sure if nvidia has fixed their driver for BF3, so BF4 might end up the same way.


----------



## OutlawII

Not sure what i think about Mantle yet? I dont know if it is a good thing for us to have software that improves performance on otherwise outdated rigs,i mean will this not slow down cpu and gpu improvements from the manufactures


----------



## SandyBridge

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *OutlawII*
> 
> Not sure what i think about Mantle yet? I dont know if it is a good thing for us to have software that improves performance on otherwise outdated rigs,i mean will this not slow down cpu and gpu improvements from the manufactures


It makes me sick just thinking of some software that raises BF4 frames... I had to pay $200 more just to get 20 fbs on BF4 with my new Nividia card 780.. you should be thankful that you didn't have to pay for the extra fbs man


----------



## bencher

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *OutlawII*
> 
> Not sure what i think about Mantle yet? I dont know if it is a good thing for us to have software that improves performance on otherwise outdated rigs,i mean will this not slow down cpu and gpu improvements from the manufactures


Omg this logic LOL!


----------



## ZealotKi11er

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *OutlawII*
> 
> Not sure what i think about Mantle yet? I dont know if it is a good thing for us to have software that improves performance on otherwise outdated rigs,i mean will this not slow down cpu and gpu improvements from the manufactures


Why does that even matter. What good is just getting performance only from hardware upgrade. GPU side you will always need more power. CPU side you have already seen slow down since Sandy so this is a respond to that.


----------



## skupples

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *rdr09*
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!
> 
> 
> 
> you're talking about nvidia drivers? this is a mantle thread.
> 
> here is the latest . . .
> 
> http://www.overclock.net/t/1457203/g3d-geforce-332-21-whql-driver-download/100
> 
> but it seems having trouble with BF4. so, if you have a nvidia, it may not be a problem with the game but with the driver.
> 
> edit: not sure if nvidia has fixed their driver for BF3, so BF4 might end up the same way.


You are being serious? Really? REALLY?

No, I am not talking about NVIDIA drivers. *DERP*

Is this an Nvidia thread? No! *HURP*

Multiple people have cited this issue with previous drivers in the "mantle discussion thread"

I'm just going to assume this was a terrible attempt @ humor. OR, you failed miserably to understand some one else's attempt @ humor.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *OutlawII*
> 
> Not sure what i think about Mantle yet? I dont know if it is a good thing for us to have software that improves performance on otherwise outdated rigs,i mean will this not slow down cpu and gpu improvements from the manufactures


I think you may see certain companies see mantle as an impediment towards profits. Doing more with less = less possible money made.(in their minds)


----------



## the9quad

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *skupples*
> 
> You are being serious? Really? REALLY?
> 
> No, I am not talking about NVIDIA drivers. *DERP*
> 
> Is this an Nvidia thread? No! *HURP*
> 
> Multiple people have cited this issue with previous drivers in the "mantle discussion thread"
> 
> I'm just going to assume this was a terrible attempt @ humor. OR, you failed miserably to understand some one else's attempt @ humor.
> I think you may see certain companies see mantle as an impediment towards profits. Doing more with less = less possible money made.(in their minds)


Are you talking about the bug of it reporting the wrong version? If so, that's hardly a serious bug, or is there some other bug?


----------



## Clocknut

My gut feeling tells me that I should be keeping my 13.12 driver and skipping 14.1 go directly to 14.3/14.4


----------



## rdr09

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *skupples*
> 
> You are being serious? Really? REALLY?
> 
> No, I am not talking about NVIDIA drivers. *DERP*
> 
> Is this an Nvidia thread? No! *HURP*
> 
> Multiple people have cited this issue with previous drivers in the "mantle discussion thread"
> 
> I'm just going to assume this was a terrible attempt @ humor. OR, you failed miserably to understand some one else's attempt @ humor.
> I think you may see certain companies see mantle as an impediment towards profits. Doing more with less = less possible money made.(in their minds)


lol. i am going by your sig. lol


----------



## Offler

AMD Twitter:
Mantle Update: Our driver team is still working on putting the final touches on the Catalyst 14.1 Beta. We will keep you updated


----------



## Artev

sighhhh


----------



## the9quad

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Offler*
> 
> AMD Twitter:
> Mantle Update: Our driver team is still working on putting the final touches on the Catalyst 14.1 Beta. We will keep you updated


Lord have mercy on them if they are really finished and this is to cover up the time period of media exclusivity. If that is ever found out, it will be worse than Hillary and Obama and bengahzi. That's strictly humor not political btw please take it that way.


----------



## tinmann

They did the same exact thing with the launch of the R9 series. First delays, then an unfinished product with inadequate reference coolers. Then they promised a Titan beater for around $500.00 and since launch the prices have steadily increased to the point that the cheapest reference cooled R9 290X is a little over $600 USD and the non-reference cards are the same price as the GTX 780 Ti. But then Nvidia fans were being taken to the cleaner with an overpriced produce. Now they launch a new API for and do not have drivers for it....Yet. The coup d'etat would have been for them to have their ducks in a row at the launch of the one game that utilizes this software but it's still broken to this date. If it were not for brand loyalty I don't think they would be around long because not many companies can survive using this business model.


----------



## Causality1978

Where they came of bosses and managers in AMD, and the company which produced for the EA game batlefield 4..??? canada?

EA bring actions for makers of battlefield 4....
Shareholders AMD to bring actions for amd.....

AMD, EA ..They're just lazy liar..









Intel CEO Brian Krzanich Krzanich


----------



## EternalRest

Where are the 14.1 drivers? I only see 13.12. I'm guess AMD hasn't release them yet?


----------



## bencher

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *tinmann*
> 
> They did the same exact thing with the launch of the R9 series. First delays, then an unfinished product with inadequate reference coolers. Then they promised a Titan beater for around $500.00 and since launch the prices have steadily increased to the point that the cheapest reference cooled R9 290X is a little over $600 USD and the non-reference cards are the same price as the GTX 780 Ti. But then Nvidia fans were being taken to the cleaner with an overpriced produce. Now they launch a new API for and do not have drivers for it....Yet. The coup d'etat would have been for them to have their ducks in a row at the launch of the one game that utilizes this software but it's still broken to this date. *If it were not for brand loyalty I don't think they would be around long because not many companies can survive using this business model.*


The R9 290x was finished and made to run how they wanted it to.

They cannot control how much retailers charge for cards, also it is still cheaper than titan.

As for the part in bold....


----------



## LtMatt

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *skupples*
> 
> from what I understand this installation issue has been rearing it's ugly head for the past few drivers.


Do you know exactly what the issue is?


----------



## ironmaiden

Hope they release it with support for 7750's , and better also for linux.


----------



## Gunderman456

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *LtMatt*
> 
> Do you know exactly what the issue is?


If it's anything like my friend's issues, where new drivers like 13.11 and 13.12 cause BSODs on his Sapphire 7950 Dual-X.


----------



## hyp36rmax

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bencher*
> 
> The R9 290x was finished and made to run how they wanted it to.
> 
> They cannot control how much retailers charge for cards, also it is still cheaper than titan.
> 
> As for the part in bold....


Well Manufacturers *can* control market price to stay at mfg price with their legitimate distributors we see it all the time with Apple and Sony, they would just need to add the clause into their buyers agreement.


----------



## SpeedyVT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Gunderman456*
> 
> If it's anything like my friend's issues, where new drivers like 13.11 and 13.12 cause BSODs on his Sapphire 7950 Dual-X.


Try overclocking your system ram, I did and BAM! No more BSODs or Black Screens.


----------



## Badness

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *tinmann*
> 
> They did the same exact thing with the launch of the R9 series. First delays, then an unfinished product with inadequate reference coolers. Then they promised a Titan beater for around $500.00 and since launch the prices have steadily increased to the point that the cheapest reference cooled R9 290X is a little over $600 USD and the non-reference cards are the same price as the GTX 780 Ti. But then Nvidia fans were being taken to the cleaner with an overpriced produce. Now they launch a new API for and do not have drivers for it....Yet. The coup d'etat would have been for them to have their ducks in a row at the launch of the one game that utilizes this software but it's still broken to this date. If it were not for brand loyalty I don't think they would be around long because not many companies can survive using this business model.


If it wasn't for cryptocurrency economics, we would have a titan killer for $550. And there are aftermarket coolers now, which really makes the cards a lot more appealing, even to sensitive ears. Although it should be noted that Nvidia launched its own titan killer(s).


----------



## Jack Mac

I despise miners...


----------



## SpeedyVT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *rdr09*
> 
> i don't care if they delay it, so long as it does not turn BF4 like this . . .
> 
> 
> 
> that's what i fear.


I kinda want to play it like that. It looks interesting.


----------



## rdr09

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SpeedyVT*
> 
> I kinda want to play it like that. It looks interesting.


you gonna have give up your 6900.


----------



## SpeedyVT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *rdr09*
> 
> you gonna have give up your 6900.


Ha ha! No I'm actually not using that anymore. I need to do some spec updates.


----------



## Kosai

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *rdr09*
> 
> i don't care if they delay it, so long as it does not turn BF4 like this . . .
> 
> 
> 
> that's what i fear.


What exactly causes the game to look like that? Seems interesting. Reminds me of the ole Xbox/PC game Tron 2.0


----------



## rdr09

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Kosai*
> 
> What exactly causes the game to look like that? Seems interesting. Reminds me of the ole Xbox/PC game Tron 2.0


hopefully 14.1 would not do that. that's a thousand dollar gpu. i only have a $400 gpu - i would be upset.


----------



## Vagrant Storm

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Kosai*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *rdr09*
> 
> i don't care if they delay it, so long as it does not turn BF4 like this . . .
> 
> 
> 
> that's what i fear.
> 
> 
> 
> What exactly causes the game to look like that? Seems interesting. Reminds me of the ole Xbox/PC game Tron 2.0
Click to expand...

Well, we don't know what Mantle will do for image quality. Thus some people are worried. However, there's been enough screen shots released that I think this is a baseless worry.


----------



## Kuivamaa

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Kosai*
> 
> What exactly causes the game to look like that? Seems interesting. Reminds me of the ole Xbox/PC game Tron 2.0


It was some driver glitch, I think from nvidia.


----------



## Erick Silver

Well last night I installed the patch for Origin and BF4. I can already see a difference in performance and visual effects. Fire looks way more detailed, edges seem sharper, water has more detail and overall the game seems to run a bit smoother. Still get bits of lag here and there and the occasional stutter. But when its not doing that it looks better. Now if only the AMD Drivers were out.....


----------



## skupples

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *rdr09*
> 
> lol. i am going by your sig. lol


i see.. Interesting logic/ deduction skills.

Btw newest driver is 334.xx.









SIG's are not big enough to hold all of my systems. So I chart the main ones components

K have great hopes for my 6100 bulldozer and xfire 6970s


----------



## bencher

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Vagrant Storm*
> 
> Well, we don't know what Mantle will do for image quality. Thus some people are worried. However, there's been enough screen shots released that I think this is a baseless worry.


A Nvidia driver did that -.-


----------



## Vagrant Storm

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bencher*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Vagrant Storm*
> 
> Well, we don't know what Mantle will do for image quality. Thus some people are worried. However, there's been enough screen shots released that I think this is a baseless worry.
> 
> 
> 
> A Nvidia driver did that -.-
Click to expand...

Did what? The screen shots? supposedly they came from DICE running BF4 on Mantle.


----------



## GingerJohn

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Vagrant Storm*
> 
> Did what? The screen shots? supposedly they came from DICE running BF4 on Mantle.


http://www.overclock.net/t/1437663/nvidia-nvidia-geforce-331-65-whql-driver/

Posts 32 and 41.


----------



## bencher

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Vagrant Storm*
> 
> Did what? The screen shots? supposedly they came from DICE running BF4 on Mantle.


Nope......

Check here http://www.overclock.net/t/1437663/nvidia-nvidia-geforce-331-65-whql-driver/40#post_21083308


----------



## TopicClocker

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *rdr09*
> 
> i don't care if they delay it, so long as it does not turn BF4 like this . . .
> 
> 
> 
> that's what i fear.


Battlefield 4: Back to Trion


----------



## maarten12100

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *rdr09*
> 
> i don't care if they delay it, so long as it does not turn BF4 like this . . .
> 
> 
> 
> that's what i fear.


That particular screenshot was with Nvidia though if they can implement it in the engine then it should in no way influence anything the engine puts out except for performance. But that is wishful thinking since every layer even a replacement layers comes with its own set of flaws.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ironmaiden*
> 
> Hope they release it with support for 7750's , and better also for linux.


AMD stated the 14.1 in particular would also work for non GCN 1.1 cards running first gen GCN.


----------



## Vagrant Storm

Oh my...I didn't realize that was an actual screen shot of BF4. Wow, Nvidia must have really dropped a ball back then.


----------



## maarten12100

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Vagrant Storm*
> 
> Oh my...I didn't realize that was an actual screen shot of BF4. Wow, Nvidia must have really dropped a ball back then.


Nvidia completly screwed up starting with the 314.22 series and beyond but I guess their drivers are improving as I see less people complain. (that may also be me not looking into the geforce topics for I run radeon cards atm)

To list the problems they had in the past and might now be solved:
Various games not working or glitching on one release then doing fine on the other but different games broken once more

Meltdown of various 5XX serie cards due to extreme load on the cards even at desktop (killed my 570 but EVGA replaced it even though it was out of warranty







)

Problems with various 1440P displays giving a black screen


----------



## bencher

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Vagrant Storm*
> 
> Oh my...I didn't realize that was an actual screen shot of BF4. Wow, Nvidia must have really dropped a ball back then.


That ball has been dropped for 3 years now.


----------



## Vagrant Storm

I haven't upgraded drivers in a long time on my 580...probably not since the 7xx series came into existence. At that point the drivers don't get many improvements for the older cards any way.

I don't even remember what driver it is any more...it is whatever I built the system image with.


----------



## skupples

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bencher*
> 
> That ball has been dropped for 3 years now.












i'm pretty sure nv drive packs stopped including fermi after 314 WHQL. It's strange how the supposed GPU killer driver didn't kill my 480's. I even ran win8+gpu killer drivers. I think half of those complaints/RMA's were people capitalizing off of the hysteria.


----------



## keikei

So is AMD dropping 14.1 this weekend?


----------



## looniam

not trying to be a negative nelly but i don't recall many driver releases on the weekend . . . so monday?


----------



## keikei

Cool. My fingers tired from pressing F5.


----------



## bencher

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *looniam*
> 
> 
> 
> not trying to be a negative nelly but i don't recall many driver releases on the weekend . . . so monday?


My dreams shattered


----------



## looniam

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bencher*
> 
> My dreams shattered


----------



## tinmann

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bencher*
> 
> The R9 290x was finished and made to run how they wanted it to


----------



## Roadking

Update: AMD's Terry Makedon is "guessing it won't be ready today."

That's not what he said two days ago. How many times is AMD or any representative of AMD going to say "oh it will be ready on this particular date" and then change it up. This is just getting silly stop it already AMD you are just embarrassing your self.

Brought to you by AMD, the company that cries wolf every friggin day.


----------



## AlDyer

Main thing is that it's free


----------



## erocker

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AlDyer*
> 
> Main thing is that it's free


Going by some people's reactions you would think they've spent thousands of dollars on it. I say give those people the broken driver. This way they'll be spending their time fixing their machines instead of crying about their driver they don't have.


----------



## AlDyer

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *erocker*
> 
> Going by some people's reactions you would think they've spent thousands of dollars on it. I say give those people the broken driver. This way they'll be spending their time fixing their machines instead of crying about their driver they don't have.


Yeah, I can definitely appreciate any free performance


----------



## Deadboy90

A kaveri 7700 CPU + 290x was getting 40% boost in bf4 performance with mantle. I wonder how much boost an OC'd 8320 will get...


----------



## Hattifnatten

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Deadboy90*
> 
> A kaveri 7700 CPU + 290x was getting 40% boost in bf4 performance with mantle. I wonder how much boost an OC'd 8320 will get...


About 25% according to DICE's internal testing.


----------



## Vagrant Storm

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AlDyer*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *erocker*
> 
> Going by some people's reactions you would think they've spent thousands of dollars on it. I say give those people the broken driver. This way they'll be spending their time fixing their machines instead of crying about their driver they don't have.
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, I can definitely appreciate any free performance
Click to expand...

It is more about Mantle living up to the hype...and nothing in history save for _maybe_ the electric light has lived up to any hype associated with it.

Some people were expecting the world to change with Mantle...and that isn't happening so they are disappointed. If the release of it doesn't even match what they've teased thus far there will probably be Internet riots. For a first run of it...and it being implemented via a patch in a game...I say that even a 10% performance gain with no image quality loss would be something to cheer for and really all I was hoping for...especially for a free update to hardware and software people already own. Give it some time and let it mature and maybe that will get better.

You can't just give a cave man a wheel and expect them to have a NASCar in a few months. Be happy if they make a cart.


----------



## guitarmageddon88

Ask me how much less I could care

i7 2600k at 4.5ghz
SLI lightning xtreme 580s at stock clocks

B4 = 90 -120 FPS..... until my graphics card/cpu can no longer live up to being close to my monitors refresh rate, I dont really care what AMD offers or how many percent gain there is


----------



## th3illusiveman

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *erocker*
> 
> Going by some people's reactions you would think they've spent thousands of dollars on it. I say give those people the broken driver. This way they'll be spending their time fixing their machines instead of crying about their driver they don't have.


some people actually bought GCN cards because of mantle so it's anything but free. Companies don't make things for free not matter what it seems like. These delays are getting silly, this driver was supposed to be ready last year.


----------



## kzone75

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *guitarmageddon88*
> 
> Ask me how much less I could care
> 
> i7 2600k at 4.5ghz
> SLI lightning xtreme 580s at stock clocks
> 
> B4 = 90 -120 FPS..... until my graphics card/cpu can no longer live up to being close to my monitors refresh rate, I dont really care what AMD offers or how many percent gain there is


Obviously you do care since you post in this thread.


----------



## bencher

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *guitarmageddon88*
> 
> Ask me how much less I could care
> 
> i7 2600k at 4.5ghz
> SLI lightning xtreme 580s at stock clocks
> 
> B4 = 90 -120 FPS..... until my graphics card/cpu can no longer live up to being close to my monitors refresh rate, I dont really care what AMD offers or how many percent gain there is


You just do that.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *th3illusiveman*
> 
> some people actually bought GCN cards because of mantle so it's anything but free. Companies don't make things for free not matter what it seems like. These delays are getting silly, this driver was supposed to be ready last year.


it doe snot work on your cards though.


----------



## skupples

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *AlDyer*
> 
> Main thing is that it's free


free, assuming you have already purchased the graphics cards, & the games that run it. Soooooo not quite free.


----------



## guitarmageddon88

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kzone75*
> 
> Obviously you do care since you post in this thread.


Well then...perhaps I do?

Care about my awesome system still being relevant









I remember scoffing at people with graphics cards 2 generations old when I got my cards.







But honestly, the performance jump from 2 generations prior to the 580 and 2 generations post is nowhere near equal.


----------



## the9quad

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *erocker*
> 
> Going by some people's reactions you would think they've spent thousands of dollars on it. I say give those people the broken driver. This way they'll be spending their time fixing their machines instead of crying about their driver they don't have.


Or maybe people did spend thousands and currently have broken hardware that this patch (non-mantle related is fixing). And maybe they aren't pissed that it is delayed so it will properly work, maybe they are pissed because even after it is fixed the media gets it for 24 hours first.

long promised outstanding frame pacing fix for high res and multi monitors is being fixed-this has been promised for a very very very long time.
long standing crackling in vsync is supposedly fixed
There are others who still have black screen issues rendering their cards broken, and they are hoping an undocumented fix will appear in this release.

So yeah, some people probably have a right to be pissed, that AMD is making them wait an extra day, so the media can benchmark for epeen and amd can get their marketing before the crap they bought gets fixed.

Once again scumbag marketing seems to think that showing integrity by putting out your fix for a defective product you sold should take second place behind essentially a commercial for their product.


----------



## skupples

best part is that media results rarely translate into real world gains. This seems to the case with both companies, & also seems to be getting worse. @least, with the hardware.


----------



## maarten12100

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *skupples*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> i'm pretty sure nv drive packs stopped including fermi after 314 WHQL. It's strange how the supposed GPU killer driver didn't kill my 480's. I even ran win8+gpu killer drivers. I think half of those complaints/RMA's were people capitalizing off of the hysteria.


The 480's have rock hard VRM's that is the only reason they manage to function at those temps my 570 however had the weakest piss poor VRM's on the planet. All so Nvidia could save a few bucks on a high end card... (an obvious design flaw and they fixed it in rev 2.0)

Yes I'm still mad about that they pulled a total Sapphire, MSI and XFX on me
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *tinmann*


Well he is right they were "done" with the R9 290X they just chose to give it a very bad cooler. A cooler that actually makes the card runs so hot it consumes 20% more that it should've. (not joking about that it is outrageous) As for noise People saying it is a leafblower I can't really agree on that I myself had a pair of them idle they were quiet under gaming I couldn't really care (had em locked at 60% fan to avoid throttling) and that is coming from someone having no case to suppress at all.


----------



## Deadboy90

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Hattifnatten*
> 
> About 25% according to DICE's internal testing.


so mantle seems pretty AMD biased right now huh. But is the point of mantle to eliminate CPU bottlenecks? Because that's what it looks like it does.


----------



## the9quad

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bencher*
> 
> Tell me some more about this broken hardware that needs fixing.


*Vsync-sound crackling with Crossfire*., needless to say from beta 5 all the way to the 13.12 WHQL's that issue has not been fixed. I'll just post this from the hardocp review

"First and foremost, when I installed these cards I used the 13.11 Beta 2 drivers. I skipped Beta 4 during the first few weeks of gaming because I did not want to change midstream while doing 290X testing, but towards the end of the cycle I went ahead and upgraded to Beta 5. *Beta 5 drivers gave me terribly "scratchy" audio, so I reverted to Beta 2.* Going through the install notes, I did not see anything that was specific to my setup as being benefited anyway. So my comments here are based on the Beta 2 v13.11 drivers. I actually have not used any of the WHQL drivers with these cards. And on that note, AMD actually seems to be getting back in line with getting betas out in a somewhat timely manner, but still NVIDIA whips the llama's ass on the beta driver front."

The *framepacing* from the press notes of Cat 14.1 via MaximumPC

"The Catalyst 14.1 drivers will also include AMD's "phase 2" *frame pacing driver it promised last year*. If you recall, the first release of this driver only supported it on one display up to 2560x1600 resolution. It also only worked on DX11 games. Phase 2 broadens support to DX10 and DX11, and allows resolutions higher than 2560x1600, so those of you with 4K panels will appreciate this update."

Lastly go see the *black screen* thread here or any tech forum that talks about the 200 series. And witness it was supposed to be fixed in the beta 13.11 beta 4 and5's and 13.12 WHQLS:

Feature Highlights of The AMD Catalyst 13.11 Beta9.4 Driver for Windows
Includes all Feature Highlights of The AMD Catalyst 13.11 Beta9.2 Driver
*May resolve intermittent black screens or display loss observed on some AMD Radeon™ R9 290X and AMD Radeon R9 290 graphics cards*
Improves AMD CrossFire™ scaling in the multi-player portion of Call of Duty®: Ghosts
AMD Enduro Technology Profile updates:
XCOM: Enemy Unknown
Need for Speed Rivals


----------



## skupples

Did you see Vega's video? sound meter next to 2x 290's then next to his dyson?


----------



## ZealotKi11er

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *skupples*
> 
> Did you see Vega's video? sound meter next to 2x 290's then next to his dyson?


Yeah that was pretty bad. There is 2 problems with that. 2 x 290X run you $1100 and can afford water and actual fan speed is not 100% during gaming. In reality 290X is actually quieter under gaming load then a HD 7970.


----------



## skupples

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ZealotKi11er*
> 
> Yeah that was pretty bad. There is 2 problems with that. 2 x 290X run you $1100 and can afford water and actual fan speed is not 100% during gaming. In reality 290X is actually quieter under gaming load then a HD 7970.


indeed. It was just a test of maximum volume output, vega put blocks on them days later.

people saying "mantle is free"

no... no it isn't. you have to buy the GPU's to use it, thus not free.


----------



## -Droid-

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *skupples*
> 
> indeed. It was just a test of maximum volume output, vega put blocks on them days later.
> 
> people saying "mantle is free"
> 
> no... no it isn't. you have to buy the GPU's to use it, thus not free.


Of course Mantle is free, what a stupid sentence. That's like saying free games aren't free because you need a pc to run them.

G-sync isn't free, for example, you need an NVIDIA gpu AND their 150$ chip in your monitor. (which also locks you into buying only NV gpu's, but that's another discussion)


----------



## revro

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ZealotKi11er*
> 
> Yeah that was pretty bad. There is 2 problems with that. 2 x 290X run you $1100 and can afford water and actual fan speed is not 100% during gaming. In reality 290X is actually quieter under gaming load then a HD 7970.


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *skupples*
> 
> Did you see Vega's video? sound meter next to 2x 290's then next to his dyson?


which video do you guys mean? could you please link it thank you

best
revro


----------



## opty165

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *-Droid-*
> 
> Of course Mantle is free, what a stupid sentence. That's like saying free games aren't free because you need a pc to run them.
> 
> G-sync isn't free, for example, you need an NVIDIA gpu AND their 150$ chip in your monitor. (which also locks you into buying only NV gpu's, but that's another discussion)


Agreed


----------



## ZealotKi11er

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *skupples*
> 
> indeed. It was just a test of maximum volume output, vega put blocks on them days later.
> 
> people saying "mantle is free"
> 
> no... no it isn't. you have to buy the GPU's to use it, thus not free.


Nothing is Free in this world. Mantle is a free Feature for AMD GCN GPUs like PhysX for Nvidia.


----------



## jdstock76

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *-Droid-*
> 
> Of course Mantle is free, what a stupid sentence. That's like saying free games aren't free because you need a pc to run them.
> 
> G-sync isn't free, for example, you need an NVIDIA gpu AND their 150$ chip in your monitor. (which also locks you into buying only NV gpu's, but that's another discussion)


And that's a bad thing how? LoL


----------



## Brutuz

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Badness*
> 
> If it wasn't for cryptocurrency economics, we would have a titan killer for $550. And there are aftermarket coolers now, which really makes the cards a lot more appealing, even to sensitive ears. Although it should be noted that Nvidia launched its own titan killer(s).


America != everywhere. Prices didn't really increase much at all for most of Europe, Oceania, etc. An R9 280X is still around $400 here as it always has been...
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *skupples*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> i'm pretty sure nv drive packs stopped including fermi after 314 WHQL. It's strange how the supposed GPU killer driver didn't kill my 480's. I even ran win8+gpu killer drivers. I think half of those complaints/RMA's were people capitalizing off of the hysteria.


I never got the Grey Screen of Death that plenty of Radeon owners got around the time of the HD5870 unless it was an unstable OC, doesn't mean it didn't happen at all to perfectly stable cards. Same thing here, my 470 is working fine and your 480 is working fine but they weren't as close to their VRM limit as the 570 was.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *skupples*
> 
> free, assuming you have already purchased the graphics cards, & the games that run it. Soooooo not quite free.


They work fine with or without Mantle, this is like after-sale driver updates getting you performance: Not guaranteed, free and just an extra on top of what you pay for.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *jdstock76*
> 
> And that's a bad thing how? LoL


Anything that locks you to either company is a bad thing, I should have free choice to use something like GSync with any card I want, rather than being forced to pay the current nVidia tax common outside of America. (Where I can get an MSI R9 290 4GB Gaming Edition $100-$50 cheaper than a MSI GTX 780 Gaming Edition)


----------



## jdstock76

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Vagrant Storm*
> 
> Oh my...I didn't realize that was an actual screen shot of BF4. Wow, Nvidia must have really dropped a ball back then.


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *maarten12100*
> 
> Nvidia completly screwed up starting with the 314.22 series and beyond but I guess their drivers are improving as I see less people complain. (that may also be me not looking into the geforce topics for I run radeon cards atm)
> 
> To list the problems they had in the past and might now be solved:
> Various games not working or glitching on one release then doing fine on the other but different games broken once more
> 
> Meltdown of various 5XX serie cards due to extreme load on the cards even at desktop (killed my 570 but EVGA replaced it even though it was out of warranty
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> )
> 
> Problems with various 1440P displays giving a black screen


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bencher*
> 
> That ball has been dropped for 3 years now.


I've never had a single issue with any driver from Nvidia reguarding 4xx--->to my current 660ti's. Hmmm....

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *guitarmageddon88*
> 
> Ask me how much less I could care
> 
> i7 2600k at 4.5ghz
> SLI lightning xtreme 580s at stock clocks
> 
> B4 = 90 -120 FPS..... until my graphics card/cpu can no longer live up to being close to my monitors refresh rate, I dont really care what AMD offers or how many percent gain there is


LoL .... ^ this.


----------



## jdstock76

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Brutuz*
> 
> Anything that locks you to either company is a bad thing, I should have free choice to use something like GSync with any card I want, rather than being forced to pay the current nVidia tax common outside of America. (Where I can get an MSI R9 290 4GB Gaming Edition $100-$50 cheaper than a MSI GTX 780 Gaming Edition)


I own a BMW so I should have access to OnStar also? That's essentially what you're saying. Not trying to argue. I guess I'm kinda trolling cause frankly I'm not nor ever will be an AMD fan. Guess I'm just trying to figure out what this 'mantle' thingy y'all keep getting all riled up about.


----------



## jdstock76

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bencher*
> 
> and who cares what fan you want to be agai n?


exactly my point. bencher, you are who again? a loser trolling a dumb AMD forum trying to get better performance out of an inferior product? oh wait .... nvm hahaha ok going to go troll BF4 forums now


----------



## mboner1

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *th3illusiveman*
> 
> some people actually bought GCN cards because of mantle so it's anything but free. Companies don't make things for free not matter what it seems like. These delays are getting silly, this driver was supposed to be ready last year.


Don't worry about it. You can't use it anyway so don't get your knickers in a knot


----------



## Tobiman

No need to get worked up over mantle. The fact is that everyone including me made a lot of assumptions based on the little info we received.


----------



## bambino167

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Tobiman*
> 
> No need to get worked up over mantle. The fact is that everyone including me made a lot of assumptions based on the little info we received.










so true


----------



## opty165

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Tobiman*
> 
> No need to get worked up over mantle. The fact is that everyone including me made a lot of assumptions based on the little info we received.


Assumptions were made yes, but I think we got a good dose of information to get an idea of what mantle was really going to do for games. The fact is, there has been a very wide misunderstand of this technology which led to these assumptions. This is just the beginning for Mantle, and many changes are sure to come down the road. Be they from AMD or from someone else. Ether way I welcome the change and the performance boosts, no matter how small.


----------



## rdr09

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Vagrant Storm*
> 
> Oh my...I didn't realize that was an actual screen shot of BF4. Wow, Nvidia must have really dropped a ball back then.


you missed that driver that makes BF3 looking like minecraft? i was about to snag a 670 when that came out. bought a 7970 for $365 instead. i sold it for $375 last month.


----------



## OutlawII

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Deadboy90*
> 
> so mantle seems pretty AMD biased right now huh. But is the point of mantle to eliminate CPU bottlenecks? Because that's what it looks like it does.


Yes because they cannot make a cpu that is not a bottleneck,there cpu's are 2 years behind most gpu's in my opinion


----------



## brucethemoose

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *OutlawII*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Deadboy90*
> 
> so mantle seems pretty AMD biased right now huh. But is the point of mantle to eliminate CPU bottlenecks? Because that's what it looks like it does.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes because they cannot make a cpu that is not a bottleneck,there cpu's are 2 years behind most gpu's in my opinion
Click to expand...

Games are years behind where they should be, the big problem is MS sitting on their butt while DirectX rots away. We wouldn't have these terrible bottlenecking issues with a stronger API.


----------



## skupples

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *-Droid-*
> 
> Of course Mantle is free, what a stupid sentence. That's like saying free games aren't free because you need a pc to run them.
> 
> G-sync isn't free, for example, you need an NVIDIA gpu AND their 150$ chip in your monitor. (which also locks you into buying only NV gpu's, but that's another discussion)


ok, we can play that game. Freesync isn't free, as it will require a dp 1.3 monitor, which isn't in existence yet!

Mantle is a feature, which is included when buying an AMD GPU.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ZealotKi11er*
> 
> Nothing is Free in this world. Mantle is a free Feature for AMD GCN GPUs like PhysX for Nvidia.


this may be the first time iv'e seen some one say physX is free. 99% of the time people say "nv charges more because of physX"

I digress. more Caribbean pirating for me.


----------



## Brulf

all this mantle nonsense..... i just want my damn crossifre + eyefinity frame pacing and if it's still a laggy stuttery mess ill be throwing the whole eyefinity setup out the window


----------



## skupples

please film, & post here.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *revro*
> 
> which video do you guys mean? could you please link it thank you
> 
> best
> revro






you ask, I deliver!


----------



## maarten12100

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *skupples*
> 
> ok, we can play that game. Freesync isn't free, as it will require a dp 1.3 monitor, which isn't in existence yet!
> 
> Mantle is a feature, which is included when buying an AMD GPU.
> this may be the first time iv'e seen some one say physX is free. 99% of the time people say "nv charges more because of physX"
> 
> I digress. more Caribbean pirating for me.


Skupples you're too clever to not know that eDP panels are flooding the market and that what we actually need is a graphics card that supports DP 1.2a and have that hooked up directly to the panel's internal eDP interface. (in other words FreeSync will require a new card and a panel that has no internal extra transceiver)

You'd need a new card and for the normal person that can't connect wires together a new monitor.
It is free if you have the new gpu already and you do the rerouting of a DP cable yourself unless you think about time is money









There used to be a time that Nvidia allowed you to run a Nvidia gpu for PhysX along your ATI/AMD card that should've stayed and it is the main reason why people hate on PhysX. (propitiery was bad enough but that just went too far as you're running an Nv gpu for it and have paid for that)


----------



## skupples

Thank you for that clarification, that is now the third (different) statement iv'e read on how freesync will work.

I knew the GPU part, as we were all QQ'ing about 290x not having hdmi 2.0, or eDP functionality.


----------



## dir_d

If anything mantle will be a kick in the pants to ms to make dx better. Comparable to how nvidia has improved gaming with frame pacing and gsync.


----------



## Forceman

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *maarten12100*
> 
> Skupples you're too clever to not know that eDP panels are flooding the market and that what we actually need is a graphics card that supports DP 1.2a and have that hooked up directly to the panel's internal eDP interface. (in other words FreeSync will require a new card and a panel that has no internal extra transceiver)
> 
> You'd need a new card and for the normal person that can't connect wires together a new monitor.
> It is free if you have the new gpu already and you do the rerouting of a DP cable yourself unless you think about time is money


Good luck rewiring your monitor to eliminate the scalar. I'm sure that will be as easy as "connecting wires together".


----------



## skupples

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *dir_d*
> 
> If anything mantle will be a kick in the pants to ms to make dx better. Comparable to how nvidia has improved gaming with frame pacing and gsync.


I feel like thinking that MS won't respond to mantle is extremely idealist/ignorant. MS will not roll over & die without a fight. Anything that results in a better product for the end user is a plus, idc who's name is on it.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Forceman*
> 
> Good luck rewiring your monitor to eliminate the scalar. I'm sure that will be as easy as "connecting wires together".


will likely require cutting a pin or two on a specific chip.


----------



## dir_d

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *skupples*
> 
> I feel like thinking that MS won't respond to mantle is extremely idealist/ignorant. MS will not roll over & die without a fight. Anything that resulting in a better product for the end user is a plus, idc who's name is on it.


I agree I feel later down the line there will be standards for mantle and gsync that's vendor agnostic.


----------



## tpi2007

I don't know if this has been posted, but it seems the driver is ready, they are just giving 24h of head start to the tech media to test it out before making it available to the public. Should happen sometime during Saturday.

TH - AMD Finally Finishes Mantle Drivers, Will Be Available Soon

Quote:


> The good news is that the guys at AMD have finally gotten the driver finished. Last night, the company said it encountered a bug at the last minute and had to delay. AMD said it would give the press 24 hours to evaluate the drivers before pushing forward with a public release. About half an hour ago, AMD sent us the drivers for our own performance evaluations. Though the email didn't say when we the public release would be, AMD promised to keep us posted.


----------



## erocker

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *guitarmageddon88*
> 
> Ask me how much less I could care
> 
> i7 2600k at 4.5ghz
> SLI lightning xtreme 580s at stock clocks
> 
> B4 = 90 -120 FPS..... until my graphics card/cpu can no longer live up to being close to my monitors refresh rate, I dont really care what AMD offers or how many percent gain there is


Nobody asked.


----------



## Forceman

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *tpi2007*
> 
> I don't know if this has been posted, but it seems the driver is ready, they are just giving 24h of head start to the tech media to test it out before making it available to the public. Should happen sometime during Saturday.
> 
> TH - AMD Finally Finishes Mantle Drivers, Will Be Available Soon


Someone needs to get busy leaking it.


----------



## skupples

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *dir_d*
> 
> I agree I feel later down the line there will be standards for mantle and gsync that's vendor agnostic.


Most likely. Variable frame rate will likely become something the manufacturer supplies. G-sync will likely only have a shelf life of 2-3 years before we start seeing it coming in the form of G-sync.

In a perfect world we will have a new epic API & variable frame rates, that work on either GPU.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *tpi2007*
> 
> I don't know if this has been posted, but it seems the driver is ready, they are just giving 24h of head start to the tech media to test it out before making it available to the public. Should happen sometime during Saturday.
> 
> TH - AMD Finally Finishes Mantle Drivers, Will Be Available Soon


hopefully the media gives it the green light. I want some real world numbers! That 3970x+2x 290x % just blows my mind.


----------



## psyside

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *tpi2007*
> 
> I don't know if this has been posted, but it seems the driver is ready, they are just giving 24h of head start to the tech media to test it out before making it available to the public. Should happen sometime during Saturday.
> 
> TH - AMD Finally Finishes Mantle Drivers, Will Be Available Soon


----------



## looniam

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Forceman*
> 
> Good luck rewiring your monitor to eliminate the scalar. I'm sure that will be as easy as "connecting wires together".


or
AMD ASKS VESA TO ALLOW CHANGES TO SUPPORT FREESYNC
Quote:


> In a notice to the VESA standards body of their intention to add to the Displayport standard, AMD writes that their workaround requires that the GPU and drivers ignore the monitor's EDID information through the use of Single-Stream Transport (SST) or Multi-Stream Transport (MST) Displayport hubs, currently being sold by a few companies to enable Radeon owners to use three monitors on one Displayport 1.2 connection.
> 
> *Using a SST or MST hub, AMD would be able to bypass the monitor's restrictions set in the EDID and enable the ability to ignore the monitor's internal timing parameters. They would then be able to use timing parameters sent by the GPU which would alter the VBLANK intervals that the monitor uses for internal timing.*
> 
> Sadly, there's no guarantee that VESA will allow AMD to move forward with the idea. Displayport hubs are currently over a grand at retail and if you still need to buy another monitor for it, you may as well be looking at GSync instead for all the good this is going to do you. Although this standards change would allow Intel to also take advantage of the feature, Nvidia won't be supporting it for fear of invalidating the work they've put into making their own scaler chips.


*that grand is actually rands. the same item is ~$109 at new egg
(disclaimner: being chit chat until drivers come out))


----------



## keikei

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *tpi2007*
> 
> I don't know if this has been posted, but it seems the driver is ready, they are just giving 24h of head start to the tech media to test it out before making it available to the public. Should happen sometime during Saturday.
> 
> TH - AMD Finally Finishes Mantle Drivers, Will Be Available Soon


Hopefully it wont come out Sunday because i'll be busy watching The Bronco's lose.


----------



## george241312

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Forceman*
> 
> Someone needs to get busy leaking it.


This.
Tonight is my only night i have time to play around..........................


----------



## tinmann

Okay all joking aside, Is Mantle suppose to be an alternative to Direct X or is it meant to replace it? And since there is only one title that utilizes Mantle can you switch back and forth between renders depending on the game? Say you have Mantle installed but the game is a Direct X game can you choose Direct X in situation like this? Just how does that work? Would you have to switch drivers also? Because I'm sure that drivers for cards using DX 11.1 won't probably work on this new API. Is there some software with the new API/Driver for this?
Pardon my ignorance but I saw a question like this on another form and if anyone knows the answer it would be someone here.

After some thought you could partition your drive and do a dual boot, given you have a big enough drive. Duh!

And you guys take things way too serious.


----------



## KyadCK

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *tinmann*
> 
> Okay all joking aside, Is Mantle suppose to be an alternative to Direct X or is it meant to replace it?


Alternative.
Quote:


> And since there is only one title that utilizes Mantle can you switch back and forth between renders depending on the game?


There is one game -for now-. All Frostbite titles (after BF4) will support Mantle as well as a few others.

Yes you will be able to switch.
Quote:


> Say you have Mantle installed but the game is a Direct X game can you choose Direct X in situation like this?


If the game is DX only, it will only run in DX.
Quote:


> Just how does that work?


Automaticly.
Quote:


> Would you have to switch drivers also?


No.
Quote:


> Because I'm sure that drivers for cards using DX 11.1 won't probably work on this new API.


Why not? They support both DirectX and OpenGL. Adding a 3rd is no big deal.
Quote:


> Is there some software with the new API/Driver for this?


Yes. New drivers from AMD, and the game must support it.
Quote:


> Pardon my ignorance but I saw a question like this on another form and if anyone knows the answer it would be someone here.


Hope the above helps.


----------



## grunion

Mantle + Sonic Radar = me unstoppable


----------



## Kosai

Can someone tell me if I will see any significant gains in FPS considering my i7 980x is from Intel?


----------



## bencher

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Kosai*
> 
> Can someone tell me if I will see any significant gains in FPS considering my i7 980x is from Intel?


Probably similar results like the 8350 is seeing cause the ipc of yours and piledriver is very close.


----------



## Blameless

I hope these results start to put an end to the farcical idea that major high level APIs are grossly inefficient at utilizing GPU resources, at least when backed by enough CPU horsepower (even if _enough_ is quite extreme).
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Phaethon666*
> 
> Bit coining? *cough hehehe


Not a game and CPUs haven't been efficient Bitcoin miners for at least three or four years. So I'm not sure how this is even a joke.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Stormscion*
> 
> no
> 
> mantle is not going to be vendor specific ... it will work with nvidia cards


Only if NVIDIA bothers to release a driver that supports Mantle.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Alatar*
> 
> Besides, even if we were talking about the majority of gamers with GCN GPUs I don't think mantle is something they should use yet... Unless they're enthusiasts who are just interested in playing with the tech.
> 
> -Only support for APUs, Hawaii chips and 260X
> -Crossfire basically not supported (big bugs and lots of stuttering)
> -limited laptop support
> -no portrait mode support
> -Since there are so many known issues AMD made a web page specifically for those issues
> 
> And that's just what AMD is telling reviewers and enthusiasts.


Most people with Hawaii parts will still see some perceptible increase in performance (multi-GPU setups being a small minority), so I don't see a good reason not to use Mantle, if it's available. If other issues are encountered, it's not like you can't just revert to the DX renderer.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Cyro999*
> 
> 1; Can Nvidia users get the CPU performance bonus's?
> 
> 2; If so; when?


Theoretically, yes.

However, do they have enough incentive to add support for a competitor's API?
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *BradleyW*
> 
> This shows even the x79 platform can be bottlenecked by certain applications.


Was this even ever a question?

There are situations in several games where I am blatantly CPU limited by a 4.4GHz 3930k (paired with DDR3-2133 CL9) and any single high-end GPU. Most of them are badly threaded, but some are not.

The game I currently play most often (PlanetSide 2) is still CPU limited after two performance updates that dramatically increased it's ability to support multiple threads.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Offler*
> 
> Surely it can. The reason why Intel added more memory channels, was also to increase performance in situations where CPU core is not utilized, but buses are overloaded by bloated traffic which DX likes to use.


Intel's deciding to go with quad channel memory controllers on the LGA-2011 platform has nothing to do with games or DX. It's largely because to support a large number of CPU cores (initial parts had up to eight cores, and the current number of twelve was always going to happen) and a huge amount of I/O, you need a corresponding increase in memory bandwidth.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *WorldExclusive*
> 
> Sadly, it's for a game that I will never buy and others will just to see this in action.


BF4 won't be the last game to support Mantle, just the first.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *velocityx*
> 
> hes quoting and talking about dice tech director showing those numbers on screenshots and you're saying that he is wrong? that intel system with crossfire 290 showed 58 percent increase in fps in bf4.


He implied nothing of the sort.

He's pointing out that this was a stock 3.5GHz 3970X and that the game was being run at 1080p. Most people on OCN with such hardware would be running the CPU about 1GHz faster and be using 1440p or higher resolutions with the GPUs used. Both of these things would significantly narrow the Mantle lead, due to more GPU limited settings, and a 30% faster CPU.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Clocknut*
> 
> which means u dont have to change ur OCed 3970X, u can put in a pair of next gen Radeon R9-490X/590X without bottleneck issue


Yeah, if the only thing you do with your CPU is game. I'm more CPU limited now than GPU limited, mostly not due to games.

By the time a 590X is out, my 3930k will be in my mother-in-law's crapbox or up on the OCN marketplace for 75 dollars.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Cyro999*
> 
> I don't think it's really down to CF, moreso that when you're targeting 100+fps, api/cpu limitations become much more apparent.


This is certainly true.

I don't think I have any recent games where I could target a constant 120fps and not be CPU limited in them, even if my GPU could manage it with ease.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *coupe*
> 
> THIS.
> 
> We often become short sighted and only look at right now. Think about all the extra power on the CPU that is freed for developers to use. If Mantle becomes widely adopted, or is supported by a variety of engines, think about what the future could hold. This is giving a benefit now and creativity later.


The problem is that Mantle will have to become widely adopted first, and even then, consoles have slow CPUs, so anything intended to run on them won't be taking advantage of a high-end PCs CPU prowess.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Dimaggio1103*
> 
> Nice, AMD catching its CPU's up to Intel finally.


I'm not sure how you equate using something less with catching up.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Offler*
> 
> Driver 14.1 beta isnt out yet. Maybe thats the reason why BF4 with Mantle patch cant work properly on older drivers with crossfire.


Drivers prior to 14.1 do not have Mantle support.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RagingCain*
> 
> You hit it right on the head, the CPU_DRAW calls have been moved to the GPU (the claim was silly but OVER 9000x times faster) I believe or are uber-threaded. I can't remember which.


Draw calls are still directed to the CPU (no real way around this), there are just much less of them with Mantle and they are better threaded.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bencher*
> 
> Probably similar results like the 8350 is seeing cause the ipc of yours and piledriver is very close.


Gulftown has _considerably more_ IPC, in most scenarios, compared to Piledriver.


----------



## Totimoshi

Can't wait for the drivers to test on my new 270x's


----------



## Seronx

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Blameless*
> 
> Gulftown has _considerably more_ IPC, in most scenarios, compared to Piledriver.


Tell that to the Gentoo community.


----------



## dioxholster

wow still no drivers. worst launch ever.


----------



## skupples

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *dioxholster*
> 
> wow still no drivers. worst launch ever.


I thought you were FrickFrock for a second with that candy girl avatar.

They should be here on the 2nd.


----------



## opty165

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *dioxholster*
> 
> wow still no drivers. worst launch ever.


Comments like this are not needed.


----------



## bencher

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *dioxholster*
> 
> wow still no drivers. worst launch ever.


May I ask why are you waiting for them?


----------



## dioxholster

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bencher*
> 
> May I ask why are you waiting for them?


they are for nvidia too you know... eventually.


----------



## KyadCK

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *dioxholster*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *bencher*
> 
> May I ask why are you waiting for them?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> they are for nvidia too you know... eventually.
Click to expand...

Uh... no? "Not for AMD only" does not mean "nVidia too".

nVidia would need to actually get involved first.


----------



## bencher

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *dioxholster*
> 
> they are for nvidia too you know... eventually.


Where did you get that from?

This is new to me.


----------



## Forceman

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *dioxholster*
> 
> they are for nvidia too you know... eventually.


Only if Nvidia decides to, which seems kind of unlikely, at least in the near term.


----------



## bencher

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Forceman*
> 
> Only if Nvidia decides to, which seems kind of unlikely, at least in the near term.


According to the AMD page GCN is needed as an ingredient.

http://www.amd.com/us/products/technologies/mantle/pages/mantle.aspx


----------



## Forceman

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bencher*
> 
> According to the AMD page GCN is needed as an ingredient.
> 
> http://www.amd.com/us/products/technologies/mantle/pages/mantle.aspx


For now, but they've said numerous times that it isn't limited to GCN forever. But NVidia would need to write a driver/wrapper for it (or redesign the hardware) , which I don't see happening.


----------



## bencher

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Forceman*
> 
> For now, but they've said numerous times that it isn't limited to GCN forever. But NVidia would need to write a driver/wrapper for it (or redesign the hardware) , which I don't see happening.


Ok, so from what i just read.

Nvidia could use it but they would have to rewrite everything they have and dispose of the cuda core stuff.


----------



## mboner1

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *dioxholster*
> 
> wow still no drivers. worst launch ever.


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *dioxholster*
> 
> they are for nvidia too you know... eventually.


Well Mantle COULD be.. but these drivers aren't. Technically Mantle is already available.. So you are really waiting for the Nvidia drivers, go wait in line for the Nvidia drivers that support Mantle and we will see who comes out first


----------



## brucethemoose

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bencher*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Forceman*
> 
> For now, but they've said numerous times that it isn't limited to GCN forever. But NVidia would need to write a driver/wrapper for it (or redesign the hardware) , which I don't see happening.
> 
> 
> 
> Ok, so from what i just read.
> 
> Nvidia could use it but they would have to rewrite everything they have and dispose of the cuda core stuff.
Click to expand...

Nvidia would have to design their next architecture with Mantle in mind, I don't think a simple driver update could do it.

And they'll only do that if MS continues to neglect DirectX in the near future. If DX doesn't budge, even Nvidia will get tired of the rusty old API, and by then Mantle should be mature enough for Nvidia (and potentially Intel) to adopt. But if we get a good DX 12, we'll never see a Mantle compatible Nvidia card.


----------



## bencher

Wow just played bf4 and got a massive increase in performance.

No driver updates done. I am running 13.1


----------



## Forceman

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bencher*
> 
> Wow just played bf4 and got a massive increase in performance.
> 
> No driver updates done. I am running 13.1


Makes you wonder how much of the "Mantle patch" improvements are from Mantle, and how much is from the multi-core CPU optimizations they also put in the patch.


----------



## skupples

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *brucethemoose*
> 
> Nvidia would have to design their next architecture with Mantle in mind, I don't think a simple driver update could do it.
> 
> And they'll only do that if MS continues to neglect DirectX in the near future. If DX doesn't budge, even Nvidia will get tired of the rusty old API, and by then Mantle should be mature enough for Nvidia (and potentially Intel) to adopt. But if we get a good DX 12, we'll never see a Mantle compatible Nvidia card.


last time MS made a statement about Direct X it was.... "DIRECT X 11.2! for win 8.1 only! See you in hell! We feel direct X has everything it will ever need, so no dx12!" i'll see if I can dig up the article. Really though, they have no reason to budge unless mantle gives them a run for their money.

Pretty much everyone is reporting amazing performance gains with the latest BF4 patch, yet mantle isn't even turned on yet...









I bet if you go to the bf4 forums tons of people think they are already running mantle.

Nvidia has already snubbed mantle, long ago... The tune may change, but I doubt it with how cocky the CEO is.


----------



## Deadboy90

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *dioxholster*
> 
> they are for nvidia too you know... eventually.


Nvidia would require quite a bit of persuasion to code for something released by their biggest and only competitor. I doubt it will happen anytime soon so you will likely be waiting a while with your 670.


----------



## Deadboy90

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bencher*
> 
> Wow just played bf4 and got a massive increase in performance.
> 
> No driver updates done. I am running 13.1


that's great! Now can everyone stop screaming about how buggy BF4 is an just enjoy the game? I'm seriously tired of hearing it. I'll bet half the people who say it never even played it before.


----------



## maarten12100

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Forceman*
> 
> Good luck rewiring your monitor to eliminate the scalar. I'm sure that will be as easy as "connecting wires together".


It is since the protocol is exactly the same rewiring a 40pin connector still takes time of course.

Again only for eDP panels if you try this on a LVDS panel you're just plain stupid and have no idea what you're doing.


----------



## TrevBlu19

http://www.hardcoreware.net/battlefield-4-mantle-kaveri-performance/ << -- First Review.. Only an APU is Tested


----------



## rquinn19

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *TrevBlu19*
> 
> http://www.hardcoreware.net/battlefield-4-mantle-kaveri-performance/ << -- First Review.. Only an APU is Tested


Thanks for the heads up. Top 10 most useful posts in the whole thread.


----------



## fashric

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Deadboy90*
> 
> Nvidia would require quite a bit of persuasion to code for something released by their biggest and only competitor. I doubt it will happen anytime soon so you will likely be waiting a while with your 670.


If mantle is a success they would be stupid not too. I for one would sell my 780 to go AMD for the performance benefits.


----------



## SpeedyVT

If I was NVidia, I'd suck it up and just make their API modular in the same way so it can also work on Mantle optimized games. Would suck on NVidia's part to not get on the bandwagon with Theif and all the other gorgeous titles.


----------



## bencher

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SpeedyVT*
> 
> If I was NVidia, I'd suck it up and just make their API modular in the same way so it can also work on Mantle optimized games. Would suck on NVidia's part to not get on the bandwagon with Theif and all the other gorgeous titles.


they will just pay developers to not use mantle.


----------



## SpeedyVT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bencher*
> 
> they will just pay developers to not use mantle.


IIt's soooooooooo stupid when there isn't a licensing fee on the open source mantle! Seriously AMD is giving away free software!


----------



## TrevBlu19

That's what it looks like


----------



## Offler

Been sleeping for too long









Review on hardcoreware:

BF4 only, no Starswarm.

Usual gain in FPS is 10 percent on 720p and about 5 on 1080p. Just keep in mind that high resolutions are mostly connected with memory speed.
2400Mhz Radeon gamer ram seems pretty decent, but still cant be compared to common GDDRs on 5000-6000Mhz.

Frame time charts:
Less spikes in mantle, but those which are present are taller... Overall frametimes are shorter in mantle.

Somebody leak it please


----------



## NoseKi||s

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *doomlord52*
> 
> Getting conflicting reports: source
> Seems like it really only helps in heavily CPU-bound situations.


Yes. That exactly is the main benefit of Mantle.


----------



## SpeedyVT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *NoseKi||s*
> 
> Yes. That exactly is the main benefit of Mantle.


Removes hardware limitation caused by CPU and allows some features to be utilized so long as they are in the game for example Compute cores.


----------



## Offler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SpeedyVT*
> 
> Removes hardware limitation caused by CPU and allows some features to be utilized so long as they are in the game for example Compute cores.


Not exactly. it removes (some) software limitations of DirectX and this allows higher CPU and GPU utilization.


----------



## revro

guys guys guys. yes mantle is free, but it works only on gcn architecture. therefore for nvidia to use mantle, they would have to build their new cards 9xx series by now, around gcn architecture AND for that they would have to pay AMD BIG bucks aka licencing fees. so i dont see a situation where market leader nvidia would throw over board their entire development to adopt competitors architecture for which they have to pay them a lot of money, and possibly per each card shipped

not gonna happen. i got nothing against amd, had ati cards for 15 years, but from business perspective this makes no sense for nvidia

best
revro


----------



## Hattifnatten

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *revro*
> 
> guys guys guys. yes mantle is free, *but it works only on gcn architecture*. therefore for nvidia to use mantle, they would have to build their new cards 9xx series by now, around gcn architecture AND for that they would have to pay AMD BIG bucks aka licencing fees. so i dont see a situation where market leader nvidia would throw over board their entire development to adopt competitors architecture for which they have to pay them a lot of money, and possibly per each card shipped
> 
> not gonna happen. i got nothing against amd, had ati cards for 15 years, but from business perspective this makes no sense for nvidia
> 
> best
> revro


For now. They'll probably expand on that further down the road.


----------



## Remij

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *revro*
> 
> guys guys guys. yes mantle is free, but it works only on gcn architecture. therefore for nvidia to use mantle, they would have to build their new cards 9xx series by now, around gcn architecture AND for that they would have to pay AMD BIG bucks aka licencing fees. so i dont see a situation where market leader nvidia would throw over board their entire development to adopt competitors architecture for which they have to pay them a lot of money, and possibly per each card shipped
> 
> not gonna happen. i got nothing against amd, had ati cards for 15 years, but from business perspective this makes no sense for nvidia
> 
> best
> revro


Quote:


> Mantle FAQ
> 
> Q: What is Mantle?
> A: Mantle is an AMD initiative to create a new programming model that fully exploits the capabilities of modern GPUs, like AMD Radeon products, to improve graphics performance. As part of this initiative, we have worked with leading game developers to create a new API specification and graphics driver that enable this model on PCs with Graphics Core Next-based graphics hardware.
> 
> Q: Is Mantle a proprietary AMD technology?
> A: Mantle was conceived and developed by AMD in partnership with leading game developers.
> This enabled the fast and agile development required to validate the concepts and bring such the technology to life in a relatively short period of time. However, Mantle was designed in a way that makes it applicable to a range of modern GPU architectures. In the months ahead, we will be inviting more partners to participate in the development program, leading up to a public release of the specifications later in 2014. Our intention is for Mantle, or something that looks very much like it, to eventually become an industry standard applicable to multiple graphics architectures and platforms.


http://www.guru3d.com/articles_pages/amd_mantle_preview,3.html


----------



## revro

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Hattifnatten*
> 
> For now. They'll probably expand on that further down the road.


i could imagine that nvidia might at best make some low end cards mantle compatible but only if they dont have to pay a cent, cause otherwise they would be eating their own small profit margins (cheap cards = small profit).
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Remij*
> 
> http://www.guru3d.com/articles_pages/amd_mantle_preview,3.html


you can make a public release for free use, while commercial use is restricted by licencing fees
also do you think nvidia would make itself dependable on tech of their competitor?

best
revro


----------



## Remij

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *revro*
> 
> i could imagine that nvidia might at best make some low end cards mantle compatible but only if they dont have to pay a cent, cause otherwise they would be eating their own small profit margins (cheap cards = small profit).
> you can make a public release for free use, while commercial use is restricted by licencing fees
> also do you think nvidia would make itself dependable on tech of their competitor?
> 
> best
> revro


The point is that you claim it only works on GCN architectures. They clearly state it's designed to work for a range of modern GPU architectures. Another thing I've noticed is that Nvidia's been pretty quiet on Mantle. If it's in their interest they will collaborate in a way that I'm sure would not make them dependent on anyone. If AMD wants it to be an industry standard, they'd have to be open with it.


----------



## anujsetia

Another Benchmark: This time 4770K with 290x at the resolution of 1,920 × 1,080 with maximum details, 4xMSAA, FXAA and 16x anisotropic filtering.

Radeon 290x using Mantle: 65.7 fps
Radeon 290x using DirectX: 55.4

Overall 19% faster at this configuration

http://www.computerbase.de/news/2014-02/battlefield-4-mit-mantle-erster-eigener-benchmark/


----------



## Offler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Remij*
> 
> The point is that you claim it only works on GCN architectures. They clearly state it's designed to work for a range of modern GPU architectures. Another thing I've noticed is that Nvidia's been pretty quiet on Mantle. If it's in their interest they will collaborate in a way that I'm sure would not make them dependent on anyone. If AMD wants it to be an industry standard, they'd have to be open with it.


I would rather see AMD and Nvidia cooperate with game devs on graphic API than leaving it on Microsoft.

Nvidia had similar opportunity since Fermi core, but they utilized only a small portion of all possibilities.


----------



## maarten12100

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Offler*
> 
> I would rather see AMD and Nvidia cooperate with game devs on graphic API than leaving it on Microsoft.
> 
> Nvidia had similar opportunity since Fermi core, but they utilized only a small portion of all possibilities.


I don't see why Nvidia wouldn't join I mean write a wrapper gain perf.
It is a relatively easy gain compared to arch gains and you don't need to shrink to get it.

The main win is the cpu side though.


----------



## Kuivamaa

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *maarten12100*
> 
> I don't see why Nvidia wouldn't join I mean write a wrapper gain perf.
> It is a relatively easy gain compared to arch gains and you don't need to shrink to get it.
> 
> The main win is the cpu side though.


AMD introduces mantle-systems with radeons see gains. Nvidia bites and supports mantle in some form. Game developers start to use mantle massively, now that both vendors support it. AMD proceeds to tweak mantle so it always runs better in radeons.

Nvidia will fight mantle to the bitter end.


----------



## flippin_waffles

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Kuivamaa*
> 
> AMD introduces mantle-systems with radeons see gains. Nvidia bites and supports mantle in some form. Game developers start to use mantle massively, now that both vendors support it. AMD proceeds to tweak mantle so it always runs better in radeons.
> 
> Nvidia will fight mantle to the bitter end.


Let them. If that's NVidia's attitude and culture, they don't deserve to be in the market in this day and age. NVidia wants a proprietary, locked in, all nvidia future with no regard to gamers. Gamers come second, or rather third of fourth. I'll still have CPU boundless Mantle goodness regardless of what nvidia does so what they decide to do is irrelevant to me.


----------



## TrevBlu19

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *anujsetia*
> 
> Another Benchmark: This time 4770K with 290x at the resolution of 1,920 × 1,080 with maximum details, 4xMSAA, FXAA and 16x anisotropic filtering.
> 
> Radeon 290x using Mantle: 65.7 fps
> Radeon 290x using DirectX: 55.4
> 
> Overall 19% faster at this configuration
> 
> http://www.computerbase.de/news/2014-02/battlefield-4-mit-mantle-erster-eigener-benchmark/


false

19 percent is nothing to scoff at plus it will get better overtime :O


----------



## Remij

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Kuivamaa*
> 
> AMD introduces mantle-systems with radeons see gains. Nvidia bites and supports mantle in some form. Game developers start to use mantle massively, now that both vendors support it. AMD proceeds to tweak mantle so it always runs better in radeons.
> 
> Nvidia will fight mantle to the bitter end.


It's not like Mantle would be this thing that only AMD could tweak and improve. I don't think the main competition here is Nvidia vs AMD, but rather Mantle vs DX.

We know more than anything Mantle is about reducing CPU overhead and improving efficiency in the rendering pipeline. Anything that gives AMD's low-mid tier CPUs a boost is a win for them since it means more people can game using cheaper AMD CPUs instead of costly Intel ones.

I'm sure AMD wont mind people buying their CPUs even if it means they purchase a shiny new Nvidia GPU. The real enemy here is Microsoft with their bloaty API and Intel with their CPU performance. The real gain here would be tweaking performance of Mantle to work better with AMD CPUs instead of Intel CPUs.

Nvidia working with AMD would help make that reality much faster than AMD on their own.


----------



## mircopolo

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Kuivamaa*
> 
> AMD introduces mantle-systems with radeons see gains. Nvidia bites and supports mantle in some form. Game developers start to use mantle massively, now that both vendors support it. AMD proceeds to tweak mantle so it always runs better in radeons.
> 
> Nvidia will fight mantle to the bitter end.


If they do what they claim they would it will be an open standards api so each vendor would have their own driver implementation and the above wouldn't really be possible.

Its probably more in AMDs interest to get NVidia on board than not, as the way i see it HSA adoption is the long term goal here moreso than selling a few extra gpus.


----------



## LtMatt

*Siege of Shanghai with 64 players*

*System Specs*
64 players, Ultra Details (Core i7 3770K, 16 GB DDR3-1333, Radeon R9 [email protected] / 2500 MHz, Windows 8.1 x64, Catalyst 14.1 Beta)










Quote:


> To measure the multi-player mode, costs especially time - despite the used SSD for OS and Battlefield 4: The map and all the 60 + players must be loaded (we measure on always the same server with at least 60 players) and the Spawn needs to an appropriate Agent. This makes it not fail, we are playing on the map "Siege of Shanghai" on the part of Americans and grab us in their basic personal watercraft.





Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!














Our test scene: a jetski ride across the BF4-Map Siege of Shanghai
Quote:


> With this we go to the flag point A passing along the promenade, swing on the third pier to the right in the direction flag point C and continue on the intact skyscrapers passing under the bridge between the flag points C and D. Because of the battle around us explodes sporadically a tank or a helicopter roars past - therefore we submit five passages in order to obtain a representative FPS value and leave passages that vary widely, outside before.


*High performance gains in CPU limit*

Quote:


> In the graphics limit the 4K resolution (3,840 x 2,160 pixels) overloaded the Mantle API the Radeon R9 290X little better, the average frame rate increases by 7 percent. In common with many players 1080p resolution (without MSAA) our test scene is already almost continuously CPU limited, the frame rate under Mantle is, therefore, a whopping 76 percent higher than in Direct3D - with 4x MSAA, there are still up 35 percent.
> 
> Are most marked differences at a resolution of 1280 x 720 pixels: Video card must be here throughout on data from the processor to wait, so the speed is increased by 78 percent. Particularly noteworthy is the minimum frame rate, which is significantly higher among Mantle as under Direct3D. This also means that users of Crossfire and 120-Hz screens, the Radeon-teams have been limited by the CPU, its performance can now take full advantage.
> 
> The frametimes also demonstrate that the images are output not only faster but also more evenly. In the same nominal frame rate is thus the feel somewhat improved. Particularly impressive are the values taking account of Windows 8.1 and Direct3D 11.1, since 7 and D3D11.0 benefited Battlefield 4 of both compared to Windows.












*Source*
http://www.golem.de/news/amds-mantle-api-im-test-der-prozessor-katalysator-1402-104261-4.html


----------



## anujsetia

Review by Legitreviews:

Test Platform: Intel Core i5-3570K + AMD Radeon 260x

Setings:










Benchmark: 15.8% boost










http://www.legitreviews.com/amd-mantle-api-real-world-bf4-benchmark-performance-catalyst-141_134959/3


----------



## skupples

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *flippin_waffles*
> 
> Let them. If that's NVidia's attitude and culture, they don't deserve to be in the market in this day and age. NVidia wants a proprietary, locked in, all nvidia future with no regard to gamers. Gamers come second, or rather third of fourth. I'll still have CPU boundless Mantle goodness regardless of what nvidia does so what they decide to do is irrelevant to me.


YES! Death to Nvidia! Monopoly time!!!!!! So much innovation comes from a monopolized market! Just look @ Cable speeds in America since comcast basically monopolized the nation!

If they can just translate the 720P gains into the UHD resolutions the world will be golden, though that's unlikely.


----------



## Clocknut

yet another broken review. Who would Dumb enough to put just a 3570K with a low-mid end 260X?

3570K is for GPU like 280X. Check people sig for spec, most 3570K gamer have GPU faster than 260X


----------



## delboy67

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Clocknut*
> 
> yet another broken review. Who would Dumb enough to put just a 3570K with a low-mid end 260X?
> 
> 3570K is for GPU like 280X. Check people sig for spec, most 3570K gamer have GPU faster than 260X


No minimum frames either, wonder if mantle is smoother regardless of average frames


----------



## fetzher




----------



## wstanci3

OT, I hope that in a half a year that there will be a RTS that has implemented Mantle just so that we can see what kind of performance gains can be had.


----------



## Kuivamaa

First of all 3570k + 260X is a very realistic combination, not everyone can afford top of the line stuff. Other than that yeah, we need to see cpu combinations but keep in mind, the first thing reviewers have to examine is the potential gains mantle brings over DX. These are first impressions, variables must be kept in check you know. Soon we will see how mantle jives with different processors.


----------



## skupples




----------



## revro

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Clocknut*
> 
> yet another broken review. Who would Dumb enough to put just a 3570K with a low-mid end 260X?
> 
> 3570K is for GPU like 280X. Check people sig for spec, most 3570K gamer have GPU faster than 260X


well my friend has 4670k with a 7850OC








but really the 1080 is nice but i really want to see some 1440p/1600p stats and also tripple 1080 fps









then again, 290 series stands and falls on their temps and noise ... why cant they make a nice cooler like titan has?

best
revro


----------



## sugarhell

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *revro*
> 
> well my friend has 4670k with a 7850OC
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> but really the 1080 is nice but i really want to see some 1440p/1600p stats and also tripple 1080 fps
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> then again, 290 series stands and falls on their temps and noise ... why cant they make a nice cooler like titan has?
> 
> best
> revro


Just buy a tri-x ?


----------



## skupples

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *flippin_waffles*
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!
> 
> 
> 
> It seems as though you are making excuses for nvidia's price gouging? Polishing a turd does still a turd make. I remember the fake outcry from hundreds of threads across the internet; "WHEN WILL AMD LOWER THEIR PRICES", "WHY ARE AMD CARDS SO EXPENSIVE" etc. etc. lol please... Either nv lowers their price to where they belong, or they get ridiculed and called out for it. I don't give a siht if it's been talked about before or not, it clearly needs to be talked about some more. I'm sure shareholders love the nv gouging however...
> 
> Yes, this is a Mantle thread so with that in mind, nv needs to drop their price significantly more than they already did. Why would anyone lobby for higher prices??? The topic sure gets the hair up on a few posters curiously.


Sigh, I can't believe i'm about to do this. must. resist.

Have you seen 780 & 780T prices in comparison to 290 & 290x recently?? woohoo Nvidia is still charging 999$ for the Titan. no one cares.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *revro*
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!
> 
> 
> 
> well my friend has 4670k with a 7850OC
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> but really the 1080 is nice but i really want to see some 1440p/1600p stats and also tripple 1080 fps
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> then again, 290 series stands and falls on their temps and noise ... why cant they make a nice cooler like titan has?
> 
> best
> 
> 
> revro


mmmhhhmmm. ohh, no you didn'!


----------



## revro

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *sugarhell*
> 
> Just buy a tri-x ?


trix is from sapphire and their quality went way down last years. would not like to get my cards to become a faulty rate statistics ... especially since r9s get so hot
tough the black yellow theme would be perfect for my black yellow case









best
revro


----------



## sugarhell

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *revro*
> 
> trix is from sapphire and their quality went way down last years. would not like to get my cards to become a faulty rate statistics ... especially since r9s get so hot
> tough the black yellow theme would be perfect for my black yellow case
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> best
> revro


Nope. Trix use ref pcb with a way better cooler. Also you dont lose the watercooling upgrade. And they come with hynix mem


----------



## Clocknut

wonder why a console able to run BF4 with 7800GT?

Now... I totally get it lol


----------



## JSTe

"That benchmark has a wrong test setup"









Oh fanboys.


----------



## rdr09

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *revro*
> 
> trix is from sapphire and their quality went way down last years. would not like to get my cards to become a faulty rate statistics ... especially since r9s get so hot
> tough the black yellow theme would be perfect for my black yellow case
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> best
> revro


just stick with your 780 - oc it and use FXAA.


----------



## delboy67

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *JSTe*
> 
> "That benchmark has a wrong test setup"
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oh fanboys.


I built a budget system for my my bro which I thought was well balanced, 760k Athlon and 260x.....


----------



## flippin_waffles

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *skupples*
> 
> Sigh, I can't believe i'm about to do this. must. resist.
> 
> Have you seen 780 & 780T prices in comparison to 290 & 290x recently?? woohoo Nvidia is still charging 999$ for the Titan. no one cares.
> mmmhhhmmm. ohh, no you didn'!


Have you seen MSRP's recently?


----------



## Sickened1

Pretty disappointed that the 79xx series cards aren't going to be supported for mantel in 14.1.


----------



## quakermaas

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Sickened1*
> 
> Pretty disappointed that the 79xx series cards aren't going to be supported for mantel in 14.1.


They are, wrong info was released by Dice, but I believe they are not fully optimized for the HD79xx & R9 280

So you have some testing to look forward to.


----------



## Sickened1

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *quakermaas*
> 
> They are, wrong info was released by Dice, but I believe they are not fully optimized for the HD79xx & R9 280
> 
> So you have some testing to look forward to.


I hope that this is true! Wouldn't mind some free frames.


----------



## Slomo4shO

This is interesting:





Seems mantle just makes the i3 a more attractive option for a gaming build...

Source


----------



## Kuivamaa

Pclab is posting BS numbers more often than not so I'd wait for more reputable site results.


----------



## xoleras

LOL.


----------



## quakermaas

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Sickened1*
> 
> I hope that this is true! Wouldn't mind some free frames.


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *DesertBeagle*
> 
> 
> 
> lools like 79** will be supported in this driver after all..


http://www.overclock.net/t/1463245/various-amd-mantle-release-bf4/160_40#post_21687831

post 162 of this thread.


----------



## Imouto

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *xoleras*
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> LOL.


GTX 780 Ghz 40% faster than a R9 290X pre Mantle.

Seems legit.


----------



## sugarhell

So legittt


----------



## Kuivamaa

It's pclab, remember.


----------



## kzone75

They "reached their limit on their R9 290X". Whatever the hell that means..


----------



## Sickened1

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *quakermaas*
> 
> http://www.overclock.net/t/1463245/various-amd-mantle-release-bf4/160_40#post_21687831
> post 162 of this thread.


Awesome, thanks!


----------



## Slomo4shO

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Kuivamaa*
> 
> Pclab is posting BS numbers more often than not so I'd wait for more reputable site results.


Yes, I am aware. Especially considering the huge performance deprecatory they are showing between the GTX 780 (non-Ti) and the R9 290X in DX. It only contradicts every other BF4 review...





Still would be interesting to see how well these low end CPUs perform with higher end GPUs.


----------



## Kosai

So did it get delayed AGAIN? And I mean after the press release...


----------



## Deadboy90

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Kosai*
> 
> So did it get delayed AGAIN? And I mean after the press release...


now its getting released the 2nd


----------



## Kosai

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Deadboy90*
> 
> now its getting released the 2nd


Srs how I feel right now......yes my upload.


----------



## ximage

From Golem.de:


Multiplayer BattleField 4



Star Swarm Benchmarks

Quote:


> *High performance gains in CPU limit*
> 
> In the graphics limit the 4K resolution (3,840 x 2,160 pixels) overloaded the Mantle API the Radeon R9 290X little better, the average frame rate increases by 7 percent. In common with many players 1080p resolution (without MSAA) our test scene is already almost continuously CPU limited, the frame rate under Mantle is, therefore, a whopping 76 percent higher than in Direct3D - with 4x MSAA, there are still up 35 percent.
> 
> Are most marked differences at a resolution of 1280 x 720 pixels: Video card must be here throughout on data from the processor to wait, so the speed is increased by 78 percent. Particularly noteworthy is the minimum frame rate, which is significantly higher among Mantle as under Direct3D. This also means that users of Crossfire and 120-Hz screens, the Radeon-teams have been limited by the CPU, its performance can now take full advantage.


http://www.golem.de/news/amds-mantle-api-im-test-der-prozessor-katalysator-1402-104261-4.html


----------



## NexusRed

Hey Guys. Instead of making a new thread, I wanted to see if anyone else noticed this. I've got a new icon that pops up randomly. Not sure if it's mantle related or what now. Please check blue circle on top right of screen shot for the icon. Any idea?

(File has been re-sized to 1080p from 1440p)


----------



## the9quad

Not sure but I think that is a new icon to let you know that you are experiencing missing packets.


----------



## wstanci3

IIRC, that icon represents internet connection. So, if one square is not filled, then that represents packet loss or drop in connection.
Correct me if I am wrong.
Edit: Ninja'd


----------



## sugarhell

Mp crossfire

http://www.hardwareluxx.de/index.php/artikel/hardware/grafikkarten/29682-erste-ergebnisse-im-kampf-mantle-vs-directx.html?start=1


----------



## skupples

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *flippin_waffles*
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!
> 
> 
> 
> Have you seen MSRP's recently?


picture was towards Revro. *derp.*


----------



## NexusRed

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *wstanci3*
> 
> IIRC, that icon represents internet connection. So, if one square is not filled, then that represents packet loss or drop in connection.
> Correct me if I am wrong.
> Edit: Ninja'd


Ahh I'm not worried then. I'm asuming BF4 multi uses udp packets so I'm bound to lose some. Thanks for all who answered! +rep'd!


----------



## LukaTCE

Where i can download this drivers ? on ati website it only show 13.11


----------



## skupples

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *LukaTCE*
> 
> Where i can download this drivers ? on ati website it only show 13.11


they will hopefully release on Monday.

I frankly feel a Sunday release is highly unlikely.


----------



## mboner1

Might be sooner than you think









http://www.techpowerup.com/197455/amd-passes-on-catalyst-14-1-beta-to-the-press-public-release-shortly.html


----------



## King4x4

My rig is ready!

http://www.overclock.net/t/1463829/bf4-mantle-benchmarks-quad-290xs-4930k-4-5ghz/0_50


----------



## wstanci3

^Unashamed self-promotion.


----------



## Slomo4shO

Anandtech Mantle preview is up, seems to match the provided chart from AMD for the i7-4960X.


----------



## keikei

^Dat Kaveri.....









*The cpu is only 170 @ newegg. Bye bye intel.


----------



## LordOfTots

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *keikei*
> 
> ^Dat Kaveri.....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *The cpu is only 170 @ newegg. Bye bye intel.


Only $130 at Microcenter, or $90 if you buy your mobo with it


----------



## keikei

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *LordOfTots*
> 
> Only $130 at Microcenter, or $90 if you buy your mobo with it


Nice.


----------



## dr.evil

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *LordOfTots*
> 
> Only $130 at Microcenter, or $90 if you buy your mobo with it


too bad i cant buy from newegg


----------



## skupples

Ha, "bye bye" intel.

this simply brings competition to the table for the first time in ages.

which of course, is good for everyone. +1 AMD

broken recrord inc: People wishing death to intel & Nvidia are quite ignorant to how that would turn out.


----------



## Slomo4shO

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *keikei*
> 
> ^Dat Kaveri.....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *The cpu is only 170 @ newegg. Bye bye intel.


Not while it is still priced at $170...


----------



## PiOfPie

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Slomo4shO*
> 
> Anandtech Mantle preview is up, seems to match the provided chart from AMD for the i7-4960X.


Kind of surprised that the Thuban gets more of an uplift than the 8350. Or that the 4960X gets more of an uplift than the 4770k.


----------



## keikei

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *skupples*
> 
> Ha, "bye bye" intel.
> 
> this simply brings competition to the table for the first time in ages.
> 
> which of course, is good for everyone. +1 AMD
> 
> broken recrord inc: People wishing death to intel & Nvidia are quite ignorant to how that would turn out.


I speak for myself. My next upgrade will have red all over it.


----------



## FallenFaux

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PiOfPie*
> 
> Kind of surprised that the Thuban gets more of an uplift than the 8350. Or that the 4960X gets more of an uplift than the 4770k.


My guess is that the upper limit to BF4 is eight threads. So the 4770k get's less of an uplift because the extra four threads aren't doing much for the 4960k and the 4770k is already faster clock for clock. Then the same applies to the 8350 where it's eight threads were more of a benefit than the higher IPC already. But... just a guess.


----------



## Slomo4shO

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PiOfPie*
> 
> Kind of surprised that the Thuban gets more of an uplift than the 8350. Or that the 4960X gets more of an uplift than the 4770k.


It is likely related to single core IPC for the Ivy Bridge 4960X in comparison to the Haswell 4770K. Also, the Thuban is only clocked at 3.6GHz Turbo compared to the 8350 at 4.2Ghz


----------



## elzhi

those figures are disappointing given all the hype surrounding the mantle, but its early days so i'm not going to write it off yet.


----------



## skupples

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *keikei*
> 
> I speak for myself. My next upgrade will have red all over it.


I have the luxury of waiting until 2015 to upgrade, & still be able to beast mode any game that comes to market @ max possible settings until then.

Hopefully I can achieve the same thing in my next upgrade for 1/2 the money.

Waiting on genuine GCN 2.0, & 20NM big die denver having Maxwell before I dump any money. Buying any new hardware @ this point would be a virtual side grade, even with mantle since I don't play BF4, & don't need it for thief.

The other games I want to play that sport mantle won't be out for over a year.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FallenFaux*
> 
> My guess is that the upper limit to BF4 is eight threads. So the 4770k get's less of an uplift because the extra four threads aren't doing much for the 4960k and the 4770k is already faster clock for clock. Then the same applies to the 8350 where it's eight threads were more of a benefit than the higher IPC already. But... just a guess.


haven't we seen BF4 running on dual CPU rigs using both just fine?

need to find those benchmarks.


----------



## ImJJames

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ximage*
> 
> From Golem.de:
> 
> 
> Multiplayer BattleField 4
> 
> 
> 
> Star Swarm Benchmarks
> 
> http://www.golem.de/news/amds-mantle-api-im-test-der-prozessor-katalysator-1402-104261-4.html


insane


----------



## OutlawII

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *skupples*
> 
> Ha, "bye bye" intel.
> 
> this simply brings competition to the table for the first time in ages.
> 
> which of course, is good for everyone. +1 AMD
> 
> broken recrord inc: People wishing death to intel & Nvidia are quite ignorant to how that would turn out.


Are u serious? So u guys are all excited over the 2 games it supports ? Whooptidy dooo,not to mention have they released the drivers yet?


----------



## Themisseble

3 game engines support MANTLE!
And more than 20 game support mantle...

THIEF
http://community.eidosmontreal.com/blogs/Thief-PC-Requirements?theme=thief

Star Citizen
http://www.tomshardware.com/news/Kickstarter-Star-Citizen-System-Requirements-CryEngine-DirectX-11,19585.html

Mantle + Strategy games = best exp.

i would like to see how will A8 7600 run strategy games that will support mantle!

If we just look at SKYrim optimization - so poor ... battles sucks! Mantle can change that to huge massive battles (1000 vs 1000 even more)


----------



## revro

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *OutlawII*
> 
> Are u serious? So u guys are all excited over the 2 games it supports ? Whooptidy dooo,not to mention have they released the drivers yet?


there are like 20 games in preparation to use mantle, even cryengine will support it (Star Citizen running on cryengine). and this comes from a guy who might double down on a gigabyte 780oc, i mean i have just a single 1440 to feed and aside of crysis3/star citizen/BF3/BF4 a single 780 gives me 50+fps in any other non cpu bound game

best
revro


----------



## JSTe

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *sugarhell*
> 
> Nvidia user bash nvidia user. Strange times


They went full blindfire ****** because AMD already has price/performance in their pocket and now you can get even more performance with AMD GPU's in select games.


----------



## maarten12100

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *OutlawII*
> 
> Are u serious? So u guys are all excited over the 2 games it supports ? Whooptidy dooo,not to mention have they released the drivers yet?


Weren't you the guy that said Intel was allowed to play dirty because they are bigger? And that AMD didn't get all they deserved in that trial because Intel was bribing OEM's and cutting AMD short of money and that was all fine and dandy because they are bigger.

Ignorance at it's finest besides 15+ mantle tiles confirmed so yes big whoop diedoo.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *JSTe*
> 
> They went full blindfire ****** because AMD already has price/performance in their pocket and now you can get even more performance with AMD GPU's in select games.


That was the reason Nv dropped the 780Ti in the first place but for multi the 290(x) is really the best buy due to the better scaling and due to it working better with high resolutions. As soon as Nvidia adopts Mantle we will have a level playing field once more.


----------



## Themisseble

Is there any MMO that will use MANTLE?


----------



## skupples

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *OutlawII*
> 
> Are u serious? So u guys are all excited over the 2 games it supports ? Whooptidy dooo,not to mention have they released the drivers yet?


Are you serious? 2 games? Get your head out of the clouds, more than 16 games are now working on implementing mantle.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Themisseble*
> 
> 3 game engines support MANTLE!
> And more than 20 game support mantle...
> 
> THIEF
> http://community.eidosmontreal.com/blogs/Thief-PC-Requirements?theme=thief
> 
> Star Citizen
> http://www.tomshardware.com/news/Kickstarter-Star-Citizen-System-Requirements-CryEngine-DirectX-11,19585.html
> 
> Mantle + Strategy games = best exp.
> 
> i would like to see how will A8 7600 run strategy games that will support mantle!
> 
> If we just look at SKYrim optimization - so poor ... battles sucks! Mantle can change that to huge massive battles (1000 vs 1000 even more)


I don't think skyrim will ever use mantle, unless an indi-project does it.


----------



## sugarhell

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *skupples*
> 
> Are you serious? 2 games? Get your head out of the clouds, more than 16 games are now working on implementing mantle.
> I don't think skyrim will ever use mantle, unless an indi-project does it.


Imsagine skyrim with mantle tho. I am already over 100 mods but i need more mods lol


----------



## Robilar

So has mantle provided any improvements to frame pacing with multiple AMD GPU's? That was the reason I went back to Nvidia. Prior to Mantle's launch, I have seen that AMD has made small improvements but in multicard, Nvidia is still smoother. Maximum and minimum frame rates are moot if you can't get a smooth experience.

I ran 7970's in crossfire and despite averaging between 120 and 160 FPS in BF3, there was still all kinds of micro stutter.


----------



## skupples

The rest of the frame pacing update is supposedly in the driver update.


----------



## the9quad

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Robilar*
> 
> So has mantle provided any improvements to frame pacing with multiple AMD GPU's? That was the reason I went back to Nvidia. Prior to Mantle's launch, I have seen that AMD has made small improvements but in multicard, Nvidia is still smoother. Maximum and minimum frame rates are moot if you can't get a smooth experience.
> 
> I ran 7970's in crossfire and despite averaging between 120 and 160 FPS in BF3, there was still all kinds of micro stutter.


On the 290x's *I* don't get micro stuttering. Maybe it's the new way they do it on these cards with having no bridge and all, *I don't know*. Honestly though, I am a little uneasy that mantle seems to introduce stutter back into the equation for crossfire users though according to AMD.

had to bold some stuff so certain people don't start picking apart my post, like i am trying to be deceitful. Just sharing my experience so far with crossfire.


----------



## Scarlet-Tech

Damn, 85 pages in under 3 days... Wow.


----------



## skupples

or 18 if you sort by 50's.


----------



## King4x4

Always sort by 50s!


----------



## JSTe

If only this site wasn't so bloated, you could sort by every 100 posts.


----------



## Kinaesthetic

I just honestly find it stupid to even fanboy either company. The last few pages have been nothing but people arguing with each other and in general personally attacking other users. Honestly, that is just stupid to do. We are (mostly) all enthusiasts, and Mantle is excellent for what it provides.

Any advancement in technology is great. It shouldn't matter which company makes it.


----------



## revro

so i just found this lovely thread, with a very nice comparison test. check it out. its pre mantle test
4k results http://forums.guru3d.com/showthread.php?p=4725507
all results originally on http://udteam.tistory.com/585 (but its kanji i believe ...)

best
revro


----------



## Scarlet-Tech

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *skupples*
> 
> or 18 if you sort by 50's.


Hahaha, wise ass... I am on a tablet, so the load time is shorter for lower numbers. I don't get my computer back for a few more days, possibly. We shall see.


----------



## skupples

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Kinaesthetic*
> 
> I just honestly find it stupid to even fanboy either company. The last few pages have been nothing but people arguing with each other and in general personally attacking other users. Honestly, that is just stupid to do. We are (mostly) all enthusiasts, and Mantle is excellent for what it provides.
> 
> Any advancement in technology is great. It shouldn't matter which company makes it.


not to mention personal attacks & insults are breach of TOS.

Feel free to hate me for wanting the best out of this technology. It costs way too much to build computers for the way I like to game, which is above 1080p surround/eyefinity.


----------



## Dudewitbow

giving props to any review site that throws in a few mobile based systems(maybe 3, one with an APU, one with mid tier components, one with top tier components) into the benching mix. I feel as if many sites will miss the platform that'll receive a large benefit.


----------



## Hattifnatten

I can't recall that being the case when I ran two 6970's. Also, would it not make sense to make the top card the number one and "prioritized" one?


----------



## skupples

That's what i'm trying to figure out, no one seems to know for sure. I know some one does! I feel like I remember it being counter intuitive. Meaning that the bottom card becomes the #1 card.


----------



## maarten12100

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *OutlawII*
> 
> We can stand it but nothing ever does,and if it does its 2 years behind everything else!


The biggest inovations are powered by AMD, HSA will be the next big shift the gains are so big it can not be ignored.


----------



## revro

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *maarten12100*
> 
> The biggest inovations are powered by AMD, HSA will be the next big shift the gains are so big it can not be ignored.


i would not call a burning 290x light, but whatever







just joking, urgh *internal fight to not run out and buy 2x 290*

I really want to see a benchmark of mantle in crysis 3 on a 4930k with 290x crossfire.
who knows when crytek plans to release mantle patch for crysis 3, and if at all?
it would tell us what to expect in regard to cryengine and star citizen.
i mean amd is running away from nvidia in BF4 and now with mantle even more.

best
revro


----------



## Themisseble

what about low end combo
Athlon x4 750K + 7790/7770/7850? and pentium g3220

i want to see perfromance low end PC build


----------



## Kosai

14.1 release status?


----------



## Omega X

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Kosai*
> 
> 14.1 release status?


The rumor is Monday based on the fact that AMD doesn't release drivers on the weekend?

AMD's twitter feeds went silent.


----------



## the9quad

https://twitter.com/amd_roy/status/429744793573273601


----------



## KyadCK

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *skupples*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *OutlawII*
> 
> Really windy in here !
> 
> 
> 
> must be in chicago! I'm sorry if I don't receive statements about my dead mother (who obviously didn't pay for anything in my computer, or my father) very well. I understand the avg OCN age is like 19, but that doesn't mean we are all children.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Since this thread is getting allot of traffic, maybe some one can answer this off topic question...
> 
> When running cards in sli/xifre, the top slot card reads (in gpu-z & benchmarks) as the highest number correct? As in
> 
> Top slot(closest to CPU) = card #3
> Middle slot = card #2
> Bottom slot = Card #1
Click to expand...

In crossfire, lead card is always Card One. Lead card is the one with the monitors plugged into it. Besides that, I don't know.

For my cards, the order is:

7990 (1)
7970
7990 (2)


----------



## Offler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *revro*
> 
> i would not call a burning 290x light, but whatever
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> just joking, urgh *internal fight to not run out and buy 2x 290*
> 
> I really want to see a benchmark of mantle in crysis 3 on a 4930k with 290x crossfire.
> who knows when crytek plans to release mantle patch for crysis 3, and if at all?
> it would tell us what to expect in regard to cryengine and star citizen.
> i mean amd is running away from nvidia in BF4 and now with mantle even more.
> 
> best
> revro


Even the more skeptic reviewers admitted that its working as intended, AMD stated (on the "known mantle issues page, which still are not released on the amd web) that performance gain is "lower than expected" which i found an interesting state. Usually people always denied anything that say "Its a software which increase performance".

I would be skeptical too if anybody told me about such software, but I also know that two different programs can perform differently on same HW. So... if you are able to optimize something as crucial as an API is, then you really have "software which increase performance".

On the other hand its the Microsoft who is to be blamed. They just let it to go too far with DirectX in last 15 years. No real innovation, limited to single OS, performance trouble which were never really fixed...

So if even first public version of Mantle can allow mainstream CPUs to gain roughly 20 percent performance in gaming, why not to apply mantle patch and allow more people to buy PC games? I mean "now game requires I7-2600 to run smoothly, then it will require Core 2 Dual core". Is the game limited by availability of DirectX? Will be mantle available on Linux?

If you are game developer and at least one answer is yes then you can expect that this will bring hi-end games to significantly more potential customers. And that really sounds interesting to guys on sales and management.


----------



## damric

This is the best thing since food stamps!!!


----------



## HowHardCanItBe

Hi guys, keep it clean in here. No need for insults. Otherwise, I will be forced to issue infractions and start handing out thread bans. Your choice.


----------



## Scarlet-Tech

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Offler*
> 
> Even the more skeptic reviewers admitted that its working as intended, AMD stated (on the "known mantle issues page, which still are not released on the amd web) that performance gain is "lower than expected" which i found an interesting state. Usually people always denied anything that say "Its a software which increase performance".


I have been skeptical, and I will freely admit, if it proves itself, I am building an mATX system with AMD products as my next system. I look forward to hearing about the full results in total.

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *5entinel*
> 
> Hi guys, keep it clean in here. No need for insults. Otherwise, I will be forced to issue infractions and start handing out thread bans. Your choice.


 GET'UM!! lol.


----------



## SkyNetSTI

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *erocker*
> 
> Nobody asked.


Funny but in some cases this saying may be excepted.
But for real the truth is we are always want more and in our case it's about pc performance...


----------



## Clocknut

Best in the both world

Radeon 290X get massive performance increase
GTX780TI get massive price cut. Now now now. time to sell the flagship GPU @ $450 like what ur tank chip GTX580 usually sold for!!!!


----------



## maarten12100

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Clocknut*
> 
> Best in the both world
> 
> Radeon 290X get massive performance increase
> GTX780TI get massive price cut. Now now now. time to sell the flagship GPU @ $450 like what ur tank chip GTX580 usually sold for!!!!


They made the chip a bit bigger I don't think they would ever go there because they would be slapped by AMD not long after since AMD has the performance/mm^2 advantage in gaming.

AMD no longer being afraid of "big" dies will make it so that Nvidia has to put effort in the high end arch rather than just scaling up a win for all enthusiasts that buy high end. There are only winners in the Mantle and big die race for the consumer it seems


----------



## Kosai

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Clocknut*
> 
> Best in the both world
> 
> Radeon 290X get massive performance increase
> GTX780TI get massive price cut. Now now now. time to sell the flagship GPU @ $450 like what ur tank chip GTX580 usually sold for!!!!


What's this price cut you speak of? Source please.


----------



## Scarlet-Tech

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Kosai*
> 
> What's this price cut you speak of? Source please.


Yes! I am looking and seeing no price cuts yet... Maybe I am looking in the wrong places.

I think he meant now is the time for a price cut, not that it has been cut.


----------



## skupples

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Kosai*
> 
> What's this price cut you speak of? Source please.


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Scarlet-Tech*
> 
> Yes! I am looking and seeing no price cuts yet... Maybe I am looking in the wrong places.


he's dreaming/thinking out loud/wishful thinking.

No chance in hell, a slight price cut may hit, but it definitely won't be anything that drastic, @least not for now.(remember, nvidia already made a large price cut on the vanilla 780 just a few months ago)

Nvidia won't cut prices on the flagship line until A.) 8xx Maxwell has come to market &/or B.) market share starts slipping. C.) Mantle is *live* on 20+ games & growing, & they start losing game contracts. Right now it's only on BF4, the gaming world is much larger than the player base of BF4. The next game it will come to is thief, which doesn't hit for another 5-6 weeks. After that it's going to be a number of months before another Mantle Title releases. You have to remember that nvidia holds an overwhelming majority of the enthusiast GPU market, & those numbers don't even include the enterprise market. It's also silly to think they haven't been plotting how they will respond to mantle.

As Maarten said, there are no losers in this battle. Nvidia will have to actually release powerful mid grade cards (look up what was supposed to be the GTX680) Microsoft will have to reform directX. Oh, & intel, that's really the wild card here. Predicting what they will do is probably the hardest of all.


----------



## looniam

c'mon! its perfectly sound logic that an API that improves cpu performance would could gpu price adjustments.


----------



## y2kcamaross

Ugh, seriously, they are saying probably Wednesday now on that twitter feed?


----------



## skupples

doesn't actually surprise me. Some one in the media probably found some sort of issue, which they are now trying to re-create in the lab.

but hey, if Johan says it's going to be on time, it's going to be on time... You know, since they never actually gave a concrete release date to begin with. It's only been "Soon ™"


----------



## sugarhell

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *y2kcamaross*
> 
> Ugh, seriously, they are saying probably Wednesday now on that twitter feed?


That you got from this tweet? It just means that they are working hard even if it is weekend


----------



## sugarhell

Oh i found something guys.

14.1 beta

http://forums.guru3d.com/showthread.php?t=386270

Who wants?


----------



## dioxholster

so who is willing to test this?


----------



## sugarhell

I will soon. Its asder nothing to worry about


----------



## dir_d

So who is gonna do a before and after?


----------



## looniam

i am sure there are already a dozen or so folks on guru3D benchmarking before i hit the submit button . .

(psst watch that thread if you're scared!)


----------



## dioxholster

Id like to see tests done on OC'd CPUs and high resolutions with ULTRA settings.


----------



## Kosai

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *sugarhell*
> 
> Oh i found something guys.
> 
> 14.1 beta
> 
> http://forums.guru3d.com/showthread.php?t=386270
> 
> Who wants?


Thanks.

All the lurking in the past 72+ hours has paid off.


----------



## looniam

i'm sure you will, someone already mentioned comparing single to x-fire.

this is like xmas for them over there.


----------



## Forceman

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *sugarhell*
> 
> Oh i found something guys.
> 
> 14.1 beta
> 
> http://forums.guru3d.com/showthread.php?t=386270
> 
> Who wants?


Also on the German AMD site:

http://support.amd.com/de-de/download/desktop?os=Windows%208


----------



## King4x4

Installed!
Testing on quadfire now!


----------



## tsm106

Now your avy pic totally fits.


----------



## keikei

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *sugarhell*
> 
> Oh i found something guys.
> 
> 14.1 beta
> 
> http://forums.guru3d.com/showthread.php?t=386270
> 
> Who wants?


Need to give you some credit for this. Thank you.


----------



## gasoau

Installed 14.1 when i click options in BF4 it crashes Ohh well.


----------



## skupples

^^ seems to be happening all over the place. =\

wonder if they tweaked it after getting media feedback.


----------



## Kosai

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *skupples*
> 
> ^^ seems to be happening all over the place. =\
> 
> wonder if they tweaked it after getting media feedback.


wat










Works for me.... sounds like a pebkac related issue.


----------



## sugarhell

No i crash too but i think i found the reason


----------



## gasoau

Pebkac?


----------



## p00ter71

http://support.amd.com/en-us/kb-articles/Pages/latest-catalyst-windows-beta.aspx
up on the official site


----------



## sat1va

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *vloeibaarglas*
> 
> We need a 64 player multiplayer benchmark with a Ivy/Haswell i5 with a 7950/280x tier card


as soon as mantle is ready for my tahitis i will post benchmarks before and after


----------



## vloeibaarglas

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *sugarhell*
> 
> No i crash too but i think i found the reason


So what is the reason?


----------



## mboner1

its out


----------



## Kosai

So im pretty much getting the same almost identical results as I did from 13.11 with 14.1 using mantle.... what gives?

Im guessing this came into play:

http://www.overclock.net/t/1463403/amd-catalyst-14-1-beta-battlefield-4-patch-and-mantle-api-update/0_50#post_21702202

Another words, 7xxx series have had no affect from this release of mantle?

Can someone please verify.


----------



## Forceman

Lots of real bad FPS drops with Mantle, makes it almost unplayable. Not often, but often enough. Hard to tell on the performance side, but it didn't seem way higher, at least not by watching the FPS counter.


----------



## Gunderman456

I concur, game is crashing now while gaming, while in the training map, or while loading a map.

Not sure if its a bad BF4 Patch or a bad Catalyst 14.1 patch or both.

When I can play, there is much more choppiness even in DX11. Catalyst 13.11 and DX11 were very smooth for me.


----------



## skupples

sounds like 14.11 will be coming real quick!


----------



## kersoz2003

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Kosai*
> 
> So im pretty much getting the same almost identical results as I did from 13.11 with 14.1 using mantle.... what gives?
> 
> Im guessing this came into play:
> 
> http://www.overclock.net/t/1463403/amd-catalyst-14-1-beta-battlefield-4-patch-and-mantle-api-update/0_50#post_21702202
> 
> Another words, 7xxx series have had no affect from this release of mantle?
> 
> Can someone please verify.


woww I got +10 fps more with mantle now with my 280x









Just make sure you activated mantle apı on bf4 video settings. Also then close the game and re enter it.


----------



## bencher

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Gunderman456*
> 
> I concur, game is crashing now while gaming, while in the training map, or while loading a map.
> 
> Not sure if its a bad BF4 Patch or a bad Catalyst 14.1 patch or both.
> 
> When I can play, there is much more choppiness even in DX11. Catalyst 13.11 and DX11 were very smooth for me.


it's the bf patch. It's been happening since the update for me.

I am just going to install 14.1 now


----------



## Tobiman

Works fine for me on my 290. DIdn't measure the fps difference though.


----------



## Gunderman456

Ok, I just learned that if you have two GPUs in Crossfire then you will suffer stuttering/crashes. AMD suggested to keep on using DX11 for now until Mantle gets around to supporting Crossfire.

Also, if you don't switch around between Mantle and DX11, playing in DX11 remains smooth as butter (just tested it).

So, now we wait for Mantle and Crossfire support.


----------



## mboner1

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Tobiman*
> 
> Works fine for me on my 290. DIdn't measure the fps difference though.


I'm getting about 10 fps better with a 4770k and r9 290 on measured areas in bf4 multiplayer. The counter does jump around more with mantle more than using direct x tho.. Looking down the scope at a wall with direct x i use to get between 127fps- 132fps, with mantle i get between 132- 145 fps more often than not 140fps. I have noticed some big stutter at points as well.


----------



## george241312

Got two 290x on crossfire
Played 2 mins Boom whole system literally froze......
restart and same problem....
This is nonsense...


----------



## bencher

Just tested the drivers. For people getting stutters, it happens when you minimize bf4 then go back to playing it. You will have to restart bf4 for it to be smooth again.

Also fraps cause it to stutter while mantle is enabled.


----------



## kersoz2003

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bencher*
> 
> Just tested the drivers. For people getting stutters, it happens when you minimize bf4 then go back to playing it. You will have to restart bf4 for it to be smooth again.
> 
> Also fraps cause it to stutter while mantle is enabled.


I was saying the same before I also experienced the stutter..

it occurs very much even if you dont minimise bf4 and very annoying..report amd about it !!


----------



## proximo

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Kosai*
> 
> So im pretty much getting the same almost identical results as I did from 13.11 with 14.1 using mantle.... what gives?
> 
> Im guessing this came into play:
> 
> http://www.overclock.net/t/1463403/amd-catalyst-14-1-beta-battlefield-4-patch-and-mantle-api-update/0_50#post_21702202
> 
> Another words, 7xxx series have had no affect from this release of mantle?
> 
> Can someone please verify.


Not true. all 7xxx series are supported. Mantle almost doubled my FPS in the Star Swarm benchmark so I know it's working fine.


----------



## skupples

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *damric*
> 
> Mantle CF not supported in this beta, but you were smart enough to read that before you rushed to install this beta right?


hey man, that wasn't posted 100 times in the past 48 hours or anything! Cut him some slack! It's not like AMD has a known mantle issues site up, that states CF is borked... This is why I questioned those results of 3970x & 2x 290x = 60% increase... How did they get those numbers if mantle doesn't support xfire yet?!


----------



## keikei

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *skupples*
> 
> hey man, that wasn't posted 100 times in the past 48 hours or anything! Cut him some slack! It's not like AMD has a known mantle issues site up, that states CF is borked... This is why I questioned those results of 3970x & 2x 290x = 60% increase... How did they get those numbers if mantle doesn't support xfire yet?!


^doesnt 'officially' support. I was able to run it. I turned off vsync, no AA, turn off frame pacing, diabled the igpu. *Right now, the difference I see is Mantle makes the fps cluster tighter compared to directx*. Waiting for next iteration of Mantle. It is an improvement, but the drivers are definitely beta.


----------



## skupples

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *keikei*
> 
> ^doesnt 'officially' support. I was able to run it. I turned off vsync, no AA, turn off frame pacing, diabled the igpu. *Right now, the difference I see is Mantle makes the fps cluster tighter compared to directx*. Waiting for next iteration of Mantle. It is an improvement, but the drivers are definitely beta.


Right, you had to do all sorts of things to get it to function, yet AMD released some of the biggest gains coming out of 3970x (intel cpu) & 2x 290x.


----------



## ejb222

Ok from my humble 2500k @ 4.3ghz and HD7850 (hoping its might help others)

Mantle FPS improvement was 34%
Mantle 60% more avg batches/ms....am I reading that right?

D3D -


Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!



===========================================================
Oxide Games
Star Swarm Stress Test - ©2013
Version 1.00
02/02/2014 00:15
===========================================================

== Hardware Configuration =================================
GPU: AMD Radeon HD 7800 Series
CPU: GenuineIntel
Intel(R) Core(TM) i5-2500K CPU @ 3.30GHz
Physical Cores: 4
Logical Cores: 4
Physical Memory: 8558579712
Allocatable Memory: 140737488224256
===========================================================

== Configuration ==========================================
API: DirectX
Scenario: ScenarioFollow.csv
User Input: Disabled
Resolution: 1920x1080
Fullscreen: True
GameCore Update: 16.6 ms
Bloom Quality: High
PointLight Quality: High
ToneCurve Quality: High
Glare Overdraw: 16
Shading Samples: 64
Shade Quality: Mid
Deferred Contexts: Disabled
Temporal AA Duration: 16
Temporal AA Time Slice: 2
Detailed Frame Info: Off
===========================================================

== Results ================================================
Test Duration: 360 Seconds
Total Frames: 9232

Average FPS: 25.64
Average Unit Count: 3994
Maximum Unit Count: 5468
Average Batches/MS: 491.04
Maximum Batches/MS: 1222.93
Average Batch Count: 22436
Maximum Batch Count: 135381
===========================================================



Mantle -


Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!



===========================================================
Oxide Games
Star Swarm Stress Test - ©2013
Version 1.00
02/02/2014 00:35
===========================================================

== Hardware Configuration =================================
GPU: AMD Radeon HD 7800 Series
CPU: GenuineIntel
Intel(R) Core(TM) i5-2500K CPU @ 3.30GHz
Physical Cores: 4
Logical Cores: 4
Physical Memory: 8558579712
Allocatable Memory: 140737488224256
===========================================================

== Configuration ==========================================
API: Mantle
Scenario: ScenarioFollow.csv
User Input: Disabled
Resolution: 1920x1080
Fullscreen: True
GameCore Update: 16.6 ms
Bloom Quality: High
PointLight Quality: High
ToneCurve Quality: High
Glare Overdraw: 16
Shading Samples: 64
Shade Quality: Mid
Deferred Contexts: Disabled
Temporal AA Duration: 16
Temporal AA Time Slice: 2
Detailed Frame Info: Off
===========================================================

== Results ================================================
Test Duration: 360 Seconds
Total Frames: 12363

Average FPS: 34.34
Average Unit Count: 4107
Maximum Unit Count: 5360
Average Batches/MS: 782.59
Maximum Batches/MS: 2630.15
Average Batch Count: 23888
Maximum Batch Count: 146071
===========================================================


----------



## keikei

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *skupples*
> 
> Right, you had to do all sorts of things to get it to function, yet AMD released some of the biggest gains coming out of 3970x (intel cpu) & 2x 290x.


Sounds like it depends on what cards you have. You can call this Mantle-phase 1. IMO, it shouldnt have been released yet. Has an OCN member posted 290x results yet? If not, i'm sure it'll come soon.


----------



## JMCB

Well I have CF 290X and I see negative gains because Crossfire doesn't work (even if you try to enable it in DX11 now). I also saw negative results in mining (was going from 850 kh/s per card down to 420 kh/s). Yeah, these drivers are getting uninstalled quickly...


----------



## kersoz2003

Now after stuttering issues I reinstalled windows 8 and do a fresh 14.1 install. lets try this way







I will let you the result once I set up the softwares completely


----------



## the9quad

Boosted my minimums by roughly 40 fps whoooooaaaaa!!!!


----------



## kersoz2003

*CAUTION !!!!!!!! READ HERE !!!!!!!!!!!*

I was having stuttering problems and I formatted windows and reinsttaled it and fresh 14.1 install made stuttering go away









If you want to solve stuttering just format and reinstall windows and do a fresh driver install









now after I installed I got a fluent and perfect fps


----------



## rquinn19

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kersoz2003*
> 
> *CAUTION !!!!!!!! READ HERE !!!!!!!!!!!*
> 
> I was having stuttering problems and I formatted windows and reinsttaled it and fresh 14.1 install made stuttering go away
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you want to solve stuttering *just format and reinstall windows* and do a fresh driver install
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> now after I installed I got a fluent and perfect fps


That's all? Sorry, but I can't see suggesting this as a fix.


----------



## Kosai

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Kosai*
> 
> So im pretty much getting the same almost identical results as I did from 13.11 with 14.1 using mantle.... what gives?
> 
> Im guessing this came into play:
> 
> http://www.overclock.net/t/1463403/amd-catalyst-14-1-beta-battlefield-4-patch-and-mantle-api-update/0_50#post_21702202
> 
> Another words, 7xxx series have had no affect from this release of mantle?
> 
> Can someone please verify.


Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kersoz2003*
> 
> woww I got +10 fps more with mantle now with my 280x
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Just make sure you activated mantle apı on bf4 video settings. Also then close the game and re enter it.


Well no wonder, my stubborn rear didn't read the fine text at the bottom of the game menu when activating Mantle... "*Restart Game for the option to take effect*"

Now Im seeing a HUGE difference, not only the fps counter but it's a HELL lot smoother! Thanks AMD Yeah!


----------



## IvantheDugtrio

Any news regarding TrueAudio support?


----------



## MrWhiteRX7

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *the9quad*
> 
> Boosted my minimums by roughly 40 fps whoooooaaaaa!!!!


AHHH!!! I'm changing my rig around lol, of course I do it the night Mantle releases. Hope I get the same results on my tri-fire 290 setup!

I've been playing BF4 on my Kingpin TI and it's slower in bf4 than even my single 290 was on dx11









Love my kingpin but 290's pwn the Battlefield genre


----------



## IvantheDugtrio

Also if it helps anyone having issues getting Mantle to work make sure other display drivers (such as Intel HD Graphics) are disabled in the device manager. I had to do this to get Star Swarm and BF4 to work


----------



## KyadCK

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *rquinn19*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *kersoz2003*
> 
> *CAUTION !!!!!!!! READ HERE !!!!!!!!!!!*
> 
> I was having stuttering problems and I formatted windows and reinsttaled it and fresh 14.1 install made stuttering go away
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If you want to solve stuttering *just format and reinstall windows* and do a fresh driver install
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> now after I installed I got a fluent and perfect fps
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That's all? Sorry, but I can't see suggesting this as a fix.
Click to expand...

I honestly don't see why not. It takes me 3 hours to re-install Windows, including games, programs, drivers, and settings for them all.

Copy "Users" "Program Files" and "Program Files x86" to another drive along with anything special you want.

Pre-download all the drivers and any programs that need file type association. Put in folder on another drive.

Reinstall windows.

Install drivers. Reboot.

Install programs. Copy folders back. Reboot.

Done.

Whole process should take under 5 hours even without SSDs and installing windows from DVD. People spend more time diagnosing the problem, just nuke it and start over.


----------



## Nickos

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *KyadCK*
> 
> I honestly don't see why not. It takes me 3 hours to re-install Windows, including games, programs, drivers, and settings for them all.
> 
> Copy "Users" "Program Files" and "Program Files x86" to another drive along with anything special you want.
> 
> Pre-download all the drivers and any programs that need file type association. Put in folder on another drive.
> 
> Reinstall windows.
> 
> Install drivers. Reboot.
> 
> Install programs. Copy folders back. Reboot.
> 
> Done.


DON'T DO THIS!!!









There are (usually) hidden folders (for example "C:\ProgramData") or folders in Windows folder where programs and drivers store essential files and dlls in order to work. Not to mention configurations in Registry and Task Scheduler. Copying only Users and Program Files will not work for everybody. Unfortunately, Windows OS and it's drivers are not so simple.

So once again... DON'T DO THIS!!!

If you have problem with AMD drivers just try and this uninstaller/cleaner from guru3d and see if it helps before doing a format
http://forums.guru3d.com/showthread.php?t=379506


----------



## armartins

Just posting this in Mantle related topics, *if your BF4 (like mine) is crashing while trying to get to settings where you will enable mantle, just go to device manager and disable your iGPU (in my case the HD3000 of my 2600K) it works like a charm!*


----------



## revro

i checked out guru3d preliminary test, they even have 3960k paired with a 290x but i cant compare it really with their existing BF4 benchmarks as this one is with 4msaa and they tested other cards always with 2msaa ...
http://www.guru3d.com/articles_pages/amd_mantle_preview,2.html
http://www.guru3d.com/articles_pages/gigabyte_radeon_r9_290x_windforce_3x_oc_review,19.html

best
revro


----------



## nitrubbb

pfffff I5-3670K running DX beats 7850K running Mantle both with 290X

that sucks balls - so much for eliminating CPU bottleneck


----------



## NexusRed

*DX11*

== Hardware Configuration =================================
GPU: AMD Radeon HD 7800 Series
CPU: AuthenticAMD
AMD FX(tm)-6300 Six-Core Processor
Physical Cores: 3
Logical Cores: 6
Physical Memory: 8488509440
Allocatable Memory: 140737488224256
===========================================================

== Configuration ==========================================
API: DirectX
Scenario: ScenarioFollow.csv
User Input: Disabled
Resolution: 1920x1080
Fullscreen: True
GameCore Update: 16.6 ms
Bloom Quality: High
PointLight Quality: High
ToneCurve Quality: High
Glare Overdraw: 16
Shading Samples: 64
Shade Quality: Mid
Deferred Contexts: Disabled
Temporal AA Duration: 16
Temporal AA Time Slice: 2
Detailed Frame Info: Off
===========================================================

== Results ================================================
Test Duration: 360 Seconds
Total Frames: 6430

Average FPS: 17.86
Average Unit Count: 3811
Maximum Unit Count: 5621
Average Batches/MS: 462.84
Maximum Batches/MS: 959.75
Average Batch Count: 27967
Maximum Batch Count: 136861
===========================================================

*Mantle*

== Hardware Configuration =================================
GPU: AMD Radeon HD 7800 Series
CPU: AuthenticAMD
AMD FX(tm)-6300 Six-Core Processor
Physical Cores: 3
Logical Cores: 6
Physical Memory: 8488509440
Allocatable Memory: 140737488224256
===========================================================

== Configuration ==========================================
API: Mantle
Scenario: ScenarioFollow.csv
User Input: Disabled
Resolution: 1920x1080
Fullscreen: True
GameCore Update: 16.6 ms
Bloom Quality: High
PointLight Quality: High
ToneCurve Quality: High
Glare Overdraw: 16
Shading Samples: 64
Shade Quality: Mid
Deferred Contexts: Disabled
Temporal AA Duration: 16
Temporal AA Time Slice: 2
Detailed Frame Info: Off
===========================================================

== Results ================================================
Test Duration: 360 Seconds
Total Frames: 13753

Average FPS: 38.20
Average Unit Count: 4094
Maximum Unit Count: 5582
Average Batches/MS: 792.92
Maximum Batches/MS: 1939.55
Average Batch Count: 22974
Maximum Batch Count: 96568
===========================================================

Awesome jump in performance!!!

Can't wait until Mantle/Drivers/Games mature. Looks like I'll be staying with AMD for a little while to support this.


----------



## SkyNetSTI

So how much fps gain systems like mine ( 3770k+GTX780 ) will get if gtx will be flipped with 290x? Worth it?


----------



## revro

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SkyNetSTI*
> 
> So how much fps gain systems like mine ( 3770k+GTX780 ) will get if gtx will be flipped with 290x? Worth it?


hmm, well see this. 9fps more on 1080 with 4MSAA
http://www.guru3d.com/articles_pages/amd_mantle_preview,2.html
I would on your place wait till they make some benchmarks that actually make sense. for me its not relevant as i have [email protected] but with your 144Hz it might be, if you dont eat too much money on your gpu sale. i would as i bought it for 600eur and now it costs 440eur







so i guess i will just double down on another 780 and call it a day

best
revro


----------



## Slomo4shO

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *maarten12100*


Hmm I just removed that quote from my signature last week, the new quote seems more fitting for forums


----------



## rdr09

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *revro*
> 
> hmm, well see this. 9fps more on 1080 with 4MSAA
> http://www.guru3d.com/articles_pages/amd_mantle_preview,2.html
> I would on your place wait till they make some benchmarks that actually make sense. for me its not relevant as i have [email protected] but with your 144Hz it might be, if you dont eat too much money on your gpu sale. i would as i bought it for 600eur and now it costs 440eur
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> so i guess i will just double down on another 780 and call it a day
> 
> best
> revro


^this. just oc your 780. mantle is still at a testing stage and so is the latest driver. you'll just end up complaining. my intel cpu is slower than yours and with a 290 - i would not even use mantle at this stage.


----------



## 12Cores

No noticeable improvements with mantle, my fps were already sky high in this game so I was not expecting much. Meh!


----------



## fullban

im getting 24 fps average directx and 45 fps with mantle in star swarm:thumb:

i have 1440p 120hz
fx8350
r290
16gb ram


----------



## Vagrant Storm

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SkyNetSTI*
> 
> So how much fps gain systems like mine ( 3770k+GTX780 ) will get if gtx will be flipped with 290x? Worth it?


The BF4 gain has been reported to a be 8-10% performance increase in Mantle with a eight threaded CPU and a 290x when compared to DX11 on the same hardware ...plus a 290x was better at BF4 even on DX11. So if all you care about is BF4 it might be worth it...the change might net you as much as 20fps.

However, that is in BF4...a game that just a few days ago hardly any one cared about and most of those that did only complained about all the bugs in the game. Now people are talking about dropping hundreds of dollars to get more performance in this game









I wouldn't worry about and just keep the 780. Maybe wait for Mantle to mature some more and maybe see more games using it.

I still don't understand the performance increase on the mid range CPUs...I mean, was this bench and other like it a lie? If the A10 increased 40% and the high end CPUs increased 10% the A10 would then out perform them. If this Mantle thing takes off and all you do is game...you might be _better off_ with a cheap CPU if you own a AMD GPU. The key word is "game" though. If you do anything else with the PC you are still going to want the faster CPU.


----------



## Kosai

Great improvement on FPS, but now Im getting stutter and slow downs like crazy, running single 7970, what's the solution?

I did a driver sweep and a clean install.

Yeah, the stuttering slow downs are unbearable... Im running around and the game just lags and continues, stops and goes, very annoying.


----------



## Sickened1

My opinion. This is all bad. I have constant screen tearing on my desktop, Minecraft doesn't render any longer, 75% of the time i start my pc i get to the desktop and the drivers fail and dont come back.

So, ill wait till they iron this out.


----------



## KyadCK

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nickos*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *KyadCK*
> 
> I honestly don't see why not. It takes me 3 hours to re-install Windows, including games, programs, drivers, and settings for them all.
> 
> Copy "Users" "Program Files" and "Program Files x86" to another drive along with anything special you want.
> 
> Pre-download all the drivers and any programs that need file type association. Put in folder on another drive.
> 
> Reinstall windows.
> 
> Install drivers. Reboot.
> 
> Install programs. Copy folders back. Reboot.
> 
> Done.
> 
> 
> 
> DON'T DO THIS!!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There are (usually) hidden folders (for example "C:\ProgramData") or folders in Windows folder where programs and drivers store essential files and dlls in order to work. Not to mention configurations in Registry and Task Scheduler. Copying only Users and Program Files will not work for everybody. Unfortunately, Windows OS and it's drivers are not so simple.
> 
> So once again... DON'T DO THIS!!!
> 
> If you have problem with AMD drivers just try and this uninstaller/cleaner from guru3d and see if it helps before doing a format
> http://forums.guru3d.com/showthread.php?t=379506
Click to expand...

Mmm, paranoia is good, just back it up with proof ok?

The grand majority of programs are actually portable and do not require any registry entries to work properly. Almost all setting and user data is saved under Users, in AppData or Documents, NOT C:\ProgramData. The exception are ones that either install to PATH, or are assosiated with file types.

Also this would not be copy/pasting the driver.

Everything you complained/warned about was covered under the "Install drivers" and "Install programs" steps. Read more carefully next time.

EDIT: Oh and I'm putting my money where my mouth is on this one. My last 10 or 12 installs have all been done this way over the past few years, including upgrades from Windows 7 to 8, to 8.1, back to 8, motherboard change, CPU change, HDD change, the works. It has not failed once. The trick is to find the few files that DO need to be installed rather than copied.


----------



## ratshady

I wonder what kind of performance gain a 4670k+r9 290 would get from mantle?


----------



## KyadCK

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ratshady*
> 
> I wonder what kind of performance gain a 4670k+r9 290 would get from mantle?


Depends, doesn't it.

You CPU or GPU bound right now?


----------



## Nickos

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *KyadCK*
> 
> Mmm, paranoia is good, just back it up with proof ok?
> 
> The grand majority of programs are actually portable and do not require any registry entries to work properly. Almost all setting and user data is saved under Users, in AppData or Documents, NOT Wolf of Wall Street The exception are ones that either install to PATH, or are assosiated with file types.
> 
> Also this would not be copy/pasting the driver.
> 
> Everything you complained/warned about was covered under the "Install drivers" and "Install programs" steps. Read more carefully next time.
> 
> EDIT: Oh and I'm putting my money where my mouth is on this one. My last 10 or 12 installs have all been done this way over the past few years, including upgrades from Windows 7 to 8, to 8.1, back to 8, motherboard change, CPU change, HDD change, the works. It has not failed once. The trick is to find the few files that DO need to be installed rather than copied.


OK then lets show some proof for those without "paranoia"
the following programms of mine have essential files in the hidden folder "ProgramData" :

Samsung SSD Magician (utility for SSD)
Snagit
Skype
Registry Reviver
Revo Uninstaller
Xilisoft Converter
Mysql Server
Eset Smart Security
Most of the Asus software utilities for my motherboard
Daemon Tools Lite
...

And that's only some of my programs. Your method and every guide is not for everybody. So it's not strange that you're always OK with your method because everyone uses a specific set of programs. The problem is that you don't understand that not everybody has the exact same software (portable or installed) as you do. And there is high probability of missing dlls or registry entries with your method.

But I guess you don't care for that because IT WORKS *FOR YOU* (or some of your friends)... Right?

For gods sake even if you copy all the files of the system, even then it's not going to work properly most of the times.

So do some homework as programmer and you'll see that in Windows OS not everything is portable (just copying some of it's files) but quite the opposite. End of story.

You should give advices about other people's systems more carefully, or just say "at your own risk".

But all of these are offtopic.
We should be discussing about this great technology called Mantle, not somebody's irresponsibility and lack of software knowledge.


----------



## jamaican voodoo

well im happy to report that i have 10-12 fps boost in bf4 with my 290...in area's where i usually get 60- 65 fps im now getting 75-81 some time 90 my minium fps increase too didn't drop below 59fps the whole time, where as before it would drop to 53 or so... ..over all it was smooth, keep in mind this was 64 plyrs parcel storm 1500 tickets conquest large


----------



## RagingCain

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *KyadCK*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Nickos*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *KyadCK*
> 
> I honestly don't see why not. It takes me 3 hours to re-install Windows, including games, programs, drivers, and settings for them all.
> 
> Copy "Users" "Program Files" and "Program Files x86" to another drive along with anything special you want.
> 
> Pre-download all the drivers and any programs that need file type association. Put in folder on another drive.
> 
> Reinstall windows.
> 
> Install drivers. Reboot.
> 
> Install programs. Copy folders back. Reboot.
> 
> Done.
> 
> 
> 
> DON'T DO THIS!!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There are (usually) hidden folders (for example "C:\ProgramData") or folders in Windows folder where programs and drivers store essential files and dlls in order to work. Not to mention configurations in Registry and Task Scheduler. Copying only Users and Program Files will not work for everybody. Unfortunately, Windows OS and it's drivers are not so simple.
> 
> So once again... DON'T DO THIS!!!
> 
> If you have problem with AMD drivers just try and this uninstaller/cleaner from guru3d and see if it helps before doing a format
> http://forums.guru3d.com/showthread.php?t=379506
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Mmm, paranoia is good, just back it up with proof ok?
> 
> The grand majority of programs are actually portable and do not require any registry entries to work properly. Almost all setting and user data is saved under Users, in AppData or Documents, NOT C:\ProgramData. The exception are ones that either install to PATH, or are assosiated with file types.
> 
> Also this would not be copy/pasting the driver.
> 
> Everything you complained/warned about was covered under the "Install drivers" and "Install programs" steps. Read more carefully next time.
> 
> EDIT: Oh and I'm putting my money where my mouth is on this one. My last 10 or 12 installs have all been done this way over the past few years, including upgrades from Windows 7 to 8, to 8.1, back to 8, motherboard change, CPU change, HDD change, the works. It has not failed once. The trick is to find the few files that DO need to be installed rather than copied.
Click to expand...

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nickos*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *KyadCK*
> 
> Mmm, paranoia is good, just back it up with proof ok?
> 
> The grand majority of programs are actually portable and do not require any registry entries to work properly. Almost all setting and user data is saved under Users, in AppData or Documents, NOT Wolf of Wall Street The exception are ones that either install to PATH, or are assosiated with file types.
> 
> Also this would not be copy/pasting the driver.
> 
> Everything you complained/warned about was covered under the "Install drivers" and "Install programs" steps. Read more carefully next time.
> 
> EDIT: Oh and I'm putting my money where my mouth is on this one. My last 10 or 12 installs have all been done this way over the past few years, including upgrades from Windows 7 to 8, to 8.1, back to 8, motherboard change, CPU change, HDD change, the works. It has not failed once. The trick is to find the few files that DO need to be installed rather than copied.
> 
> 
> 
> OK then lets show some proof for those without "paranoia"
> the following programms of mine have essential files in the hidden folder "ProgramData" :
> 
> Samsung SSD Magician (utility for SSD)
> Snagit
> Skype
> Registry Reviver
> Revo Uninstaller
> Xilisoft Converter
> Mysql Server
> Eset Smart Security
> Most of the Asus software utilities for my motherboard
> Daemon Tools Lite
> ...
> 
> And that's only some of my programs. Your method and every guide is not for everybody. So it's not strange that you're always OK with your method because everyone uses a specific set of programs. The problem is that you don't understand that not everybody has the exact same software (portable or installed) as you do. And there is high probability of missing dlls or registry entries with your method.
> 
> But I guess you don't care for that because IT WORKS *FOR YOU* (or some of your friends)... Right?
> 
> For gods sake even if you copy all the files of the system, even then it's not going to work properly most of the times.
> 
> So do some homework as programmer and you'll see that in Windows OS not everything is portable (just copying some of it's files) but quite the opposite. End of story.
> 
> You should give advices about other people's systems more carefully, or just say "at your own risk".
Click to expand...

Both of you guys are going off topic.

FYI, you can sysprep a Windows Install and turn it into an image called a WIM. It will retain all settings, all files, and even user accounts if you want. You can sysprep once, a deploy to many machines even.

Takes about 30 minutes to deploy an image and it is Microsoft Best Practice. So take a clean install, fancy it up however you want, then just sysprep it. Never have to do a clean install from scratch unless you want to.

I am happy to report that in the case of BF4, my performance has gone up about 13%. They did a very good job with this patch.


----------



## Nickos

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RagingCain*
> 
> Both of you guys are going off topic.
> 
> FYI, you can sysprep a Windows Install and turn it into an image called a WIM. It will retain all settings, all files, and even user accounts if you want. You can sysprep once, a deploy to many machines even.
> 
> Takes about 30 minutes to deploy an image and it is Microsoft Best Practice. So take a clean install, fancy it up however you want, then just sysprep it. Never have to do a clean install from scratch unless you want to.
> 
> I am happy to report that in the case of BF4, my performance has gone up about 13%. They did a very good job with this patch.


You're totally right!


----------



## keikei

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *jamaican voodoo*
> 
> well im happy to report that i have 10-12 fps boost in bf4 with my 290...in area's where i usually get 60- 65 fps im now getting 75-81 some time 90 my minium fps increase too didn't drop below 59fps the whole time, where as before it would drop to 53 or so... ..over all it was smooth, keep in mind this was *64 plyrs parcel storm* 1500 tickets conquest large


Seems like we agree on the most intense level in bf4.


----------



## jamaican voodoo

well im happy


----------



## KyadCK

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Nickos*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *KyadCK*
> 
> Mmm, paranoia is good, just back it up with proof ok?
> 
> The grand majority of programs are actually portable and do not require any registry entries to work properly. Almost all setting and user data is saved under Users, in AppData or Documents, NOT Wolf of Wall Street The exception are ones that either install to PATH, or are assosiated with file types.
> 
> Also this would not be copy/pasting the driver.
> 
> Everything you complained/warned about was covered under the "Install drivers" and "Install programs" steps. Read more carefully next time.
> 
> EDIT: Oh and I'm putting my money where my mouth is on this one. My last 10 or 12 installs have all been done this way over the past few years, including upgrades from Windows 7 to 8, to 8.1, back to 8, motherboard change, CPU change, HDD change, the works. It has not failed once. The trick is to find the few files that DO need to be installed rather than copied.
> 
> 
> 
> OK then lets show some proof for those without "paranoia"
> the following programms of mine have essential files in the hidden folder "ProgramData" :
> 
> Samsung SSD Magician (utility for SSD)
> Snagit
> Skype
> Registry Reviver
> Revo Uninstaller
> Xilisoft Converter
> Mysql Server
> Eset Smart Security
> Most of the Asus software utilities for my motherboard
> Daemon Tools Lite
> ...
> 
> And that's only some of my programs. Your method and every guide is not for everybody. So it's not strange that you're always OK with your method because everyone uses a specific set of programs. The problem is that you don't understand that not everybody has the exact same software (portable or installed) as you do. And there is high probability of missing dlls or registry entries with your method.
> 
> But I guess you don't care for that because IT WORKS *FOR YOU* (or some of your friends)... Right?
> 
> For gods sake even if you copy all the files of the system, even then it's not going to work properly most of the times.
> 
> So do some homework as programmer and you'll see that in Windows OS not everything is portable (just copying some of it's files) but quite the opposite. End of story.
> 
> You should give advices about other people's systems more carefully, or just say "at your own risk".
Click to expand...

No, you simply need to get better at reading. Lets quote my original steps.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *KyadCK*
> 
> I honestly don't see why not. It takes me 3 hours to re-install Windows, including games, programs, drivers, and settings for them all.
> 
> Copy "Users" "Program Files" and "Program Files x86" to another drive *along with anything special you want.*
> 
> *Pre-download all the drivers and any programs that need file type association.* Put in folder on another drive.
> 
> Reinstall windows.
> 
> Install drivers. Reboot.
> 
> *Install programs.* Copy folders back. Reboot.
> 
> Done.
> 
> Whole process should take under 5 hours even without SSDs and installing windows from DVD. People spend more time diagnosing the problem, just nuke it and start over.


I'm guessing you just completely skipped over that.

While we're on the topic of programs that should be installed and not copied, how about anything you want to start up with your computer?

Steam
Start8
Origin
Samsung Magician
IceChat

Things that require file association?

Paint.Net
Chrome
FireFox

Interestingly, unless you want to start from scratch, do you know how you get all your settings back for these programs? After installing them, you copy over your Users file, specifically AppData.

All of which I covered if you had just read my original post fully instead of seeing copy/paste and freaking out. Windows is not the complicated spiderweb everyone thinks it is, and you will not break it by copying some things. In fact, most of your programs could be run off the copied data on the space drive without even copying them back. For the most part they run either on .NET, redistributable libraries, or the files in their own directory. Not something they store in an obscure location.

Experience trumps theory, and with years of working with Windows both formal training and non as well as access to full-fledged TechNet and years of moving systems around hard drives, and other upgrades, I've got plenty of experience. It speaks volumes that I no longer Ghost drives because it's simply faster to do it this way. Drive shuffling is no big deal.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RagingCain*
> 
> Both of you guys are going off topic.
> 
> FYI, you can sysprep a Windows Install and turn it into an image called a WIM. It will retain all settings, all files, and even user accounts if you want. You can sysprep once, a deploy to many machines even.
> 
> Takes about 30 minutes to deploy an image and it is Microsoft Best Practice. So take a clean install, fancy it up however you want, then just sysprep it. Never have to do a clean install from scratch unless you want to.
> 
> I am happy to report that in the case of BF4, my performance has gone up about 13%. They did a very good job with this patch.


WIM is best in office scenarios with dozens on computers that do not have personal files. While it is a good way for initial deployment, it does not do a good job of saving things like program settings AFTER you have installed. My method is more or less a free-hand on the fly deployment, but it's also done at time of reinstall, not whenever you first build the comp.

It's also based around a single comp and is basicly just backing everything up, which is fine since it's intended use is only for that one reinstall.

It really is good to hear that everyone is positive about Mantle. Almost seems unreal having this much in favor of a new beta thing, doesn't it?


----------



## the9quad

There is 60000000 million million mantle threads so I thought I'd post this in each see if it helps or is wrong and gets clarified:

After a round of 64 player Paracel Storm with mantle:

1440p True Ultra aka w/hbao 4msaa/ post high/ render 100%

Min:129.53 (4.21ms)
Max:237.53(7.72ms)
Avg:146.82(6.811ms)

Here is how to generate the benchmark and analyze it so far from what I think I figured out.

guide: ignore quotes do not type them
In game

1) press "`"

2.) type "perfoverlay.framefilelogenable 1"
do not add this to your user cfg as the data it generates while it loads is useless, wait til your in game and spawned.

3.) prior to exiting the game type ""perfoverlay.framefilelogenable 0"
if you don't do this the data at the end of your file will have huge numbers that are useless.

4.) once out of game navigate to the documents/Battlefield 4 folder and you should see a FrameTimeLog.csv file

5.) open this up with excel or libre office calc (it's free)

you should have a file that looks like this:










that first column A is all you really care about (I think for fps):

so just go use the following calcs to get min max and avg
where XX is the number of your last row in A
find an empty cell and type

"MIN(A1:AXX)"

in another empty cell type
"MAX(A1:AXX)"

in another empty cell type
"AVERAGE(A1:AXX)"

in the above pic it would look like
MIN(A1:A14)

That will give you the frametime avg,max,min in ms, now:
*DIVIDE 1000 BY the MIN MAX AVG in ms ETC.. TO GET the min max avg FPS*

Hope that helps. feel free to correct and/or add info and yes you could graph it as well if you want.


----------



## Fniz92

Thank you the9quad, was much easier than the derp method I was using. + rep.


----------



## SkyNetSTI

Mantle... who cares...
it seems after the last update all known sound problem appeared! I had tried all solution I heard to fix it... NO PLAY without a sound!


----------



## RagingCain

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SkyNetSTI*
> 
> Mantle... who cares...
> it seems after the last update all known sound problem appeared! I had tried all solution I heard to fix it... NO PLAY without a sound!


The issue appears to be server side caused.


----------



## Ultracarpet

Maxed out, I used to dip into the 50's on 64 player servers... just played for a few hours and never dipped below 70 with mantle. Upped the minimum to around 80 once I applied my overclock (was scared to do so after reading some things but all was ok).

I do get an occasional stutter... maybe once a game. Not really noticeable.

All in all, it made the game 60fps< which means it's 100% playable for me at max settings. IS NICE!

edit: at 1080p lol


----------



## Kosai

So is there a solution to the stutter slow down with mantle enabled? Is AMD even aware it's an issue for some of us?


----------



## maarten12100

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Kosai*
> 
> So is there a solution to the stutter slow down with mantle enabled? Is AMD even aware it's an issue for some of us?


Some people aren't having the issue for whatever reason that may be but I do think AMD knows there is a problem.


----------



## jmcosta

did a clean install


unplayable with mantle


----------



## Vagrant Storm

Any one seen a bench of BF4 with SLI? The only one I can find is with the 780ti...and there it looks like Mantle just helps 290X crossfire catch up, but yet...one 290X will perform better than one 780ti even without Mantle. What gives? I am thinking that bench isn't the most accurate one to be had.

but seriously...SLI, BF4, and bench do not seem to appear in the same sentence on the Internet. I'd really like to compare more SLI vrs Crossfire with Mantle and without, but it is proving difficult.


----------



## revro

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Vagrant Storm*
> 
> Any one seen a bench of BF4 with SLI? The only one I can find is with the 780ti...and there it looks like Mantle just helps 290X crossfire catch up, but yet...one 290X will perform better than one 780ti even without Mantle. What gives? I am thinking that bench isn't the most accurate one to be had.
> 
> but seriously...SLI, BF4, and bench do not seem to appear in the same sentence on the Internet. I'd really like to compare more SLI vrs Crossfire with Mantle and without, but it is proving difficult.


here it is from a super korean test http://udteam.tistory.com/585
No AA 1080 http://cfile29.uf.tistory.com/image/2119D83552AE0500297BB2
4MSAA 1080 http://cfile28.uf.tistory.com/image/231CDA3552AE05012CE9B2

No AA 1600 http://cfile28.uf.tistory.com/image/2319F13552AE050029A97F
4MSAA 1600 http://cfile29.uf.tistory.com/image/271BE33552AE0501294772

No AA 2160 http://cfile25.uf.tistory.com/image/231CA83552AE05012A1FB7
4MSAA 2160 http://cfile10.uf.tistory.com/image/211A3C3552AE05012D5058

here is also from guru3d but its only 2msaa
http://www.guru3d.com/articles_pages/gigabyte_radeon_r9_290x_windforce_3x_oc_review,19.html

best
revro


----------



## Fniz92

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Vagrant Storm*
> 
> Any one seen a bench of BF4 with SLI? The only one I can find is with the 780ti...and there it looks like Mantle just helps 290X crossfire catch up, but yet...one 290X will perform better than one 780ti even without Mantle. What gives? I am thinking that bench isn't the most accurate one to be had.
> 
> but seriously...SLI, BF4, and bench do not seem to appear in the same sentence on the Internet. I'd really like to compare more SLI vrs Crossfire with Mantle and without, but it is proving difficult.


290x CF in BF4 does not catch up to 780 Ti in SLI, It slaughters It even without mantle.


----------



## ImJJames

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Fniz92*
> 
> 290x CF in BF4 does not catch up to 780 Ti in SLI, It slaughters It even without mantle.


----------



## jordanecmusic

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *jmcosta*
> 
> did a clean install
> 
> 
> unplayable with mantle


really now. smoothest experience ive had with this game altogether. 5760x1080 at high settings (no aa) with ONE 7970. smooooooothhhh as butter.

mantles got my vote!


----------



## SpeedyVT

Personally I believe this problem only exists with BF4 I ran Mantle on the Star Swarm with remarkable frame-rates! Not only do I get stuttering in BF4 but I also get shadow clipping and light refractions occurring off world ambient lightning. I'd be walking down a road in China and the rain would cause me to see a clipping sky. The problems are 110% BF4. I just might have to turn the main settings off Auto and see if it fixes it.


----------



## Robilar

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ImJJames*


Cherry picking review slides tsk tsk









http://s1201.photobucket.com/user/RobilarOCN/media/chart_zps05c8ebc0.jpg.html


----------



## sugarhell

I like the fact that you compare 1440p with 1080p

Meanwhilke a complete review about MP because guru3d only do SP which is useless none plays SP bf4

http://www.hardocp.com/article/2013/11/17/battlefield_4_video_card_performance_iq_review/4

http://www.hardocp.com/article/2014/01/26/xfx_r9_290x_double_dissipation_edition_crossfire_review/3


----------



## Robilar

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *sugarhell*
> 
> I like the fact that you compare 1440p with 1080p
> 
> Meanwhilke a complete review about MP because guru3d only do SP which is useless none plays SP bf4
> 
> http://www.hardocp.com/article/2013/11/17/battlefield_4_video_card_performance_iq_review/4
> 
> http://www.hardocp.com/article/2014/01/26/xfx_r9_290x_double_dissipation_edition_crossfire_review/3


The first HardOCP review you linked only tests the 780, not the Ti mate









The second HardOCP review, here is a screenshot:

http://s1201.photobucket.com/user/RobilarOCN/media/chart3_zps824397af.jpg.html

Not to mention, aren't the 290X supposed to be the 4K killers?









My point was that depending on the review site and testing done, results can vary quite a bit.

It's safe to say 290x in Crossfire or 780Ti in SLI are going to be awesome. At least once AMD gets frame pacing caught up on Crossfire to SLI.


----------



## skupples

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Vagrant Storm*
> 
> Any one seen a bench of BF4 with SLI? The only one I can find is with the 780ti...and there it looks like Mantle just helps 290X crossfire catch up, but yet...one 290X will perform better than one 780ti even without Mantle. What gives? I am thinking that bench isn't the most accurate one to be had.
> 
> but seriously...SLI, BF4, and bench do not seem to appear in the same sentence on the Internet. I'd really like to compare more SLI vrs Crossfire with Mantle and without, but it is proving difficult.


That's probably because people like me who run multi-GPU's quit playing BF$ because nvidia could never get things sorted. It works great for allot of people, but i'm STILL having issues... Well, I can't say that with true certainty, I haven't been in to try out the tiled resources patch, as i'm too lazy to install win 8.1.


----------



## ImJJames

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Robilar*
> 
> Cherry picking review slides tsk tsk


I guess it just depends what site you go to.


----------



## looniam

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Robilar*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *ImJJames*
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cherry picking review slides tsk tsk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!
> 
> 
> 
> http://s1201.photobucket.com/user/RobilarOCN/media/chart_zps05c8ebc0.jpg.html
Click to expand...

thanks for that, i was about to post similar but decided against it to avoid getting called "fanboy" flamefest . . .


----------



## maarten12100

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Robilar*
> 
> The first HardOCP review you linked only tests the 780, not the Ti mate
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The second HardOCP review, here is a screenshot:
> 
> http://s1201.photobucket.com/user/RobilarOCN/media/chart3_zps824397af.jpg.html
> 
> Not to mention, aren't the 290X supposed to be the 4K killers?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My point was that depending on the review site and testing done, results can vary quite a bit.
> 
> It's safe to say 290x in Crossfire or 780Ti in SLI are going to be awesome. At least once AMD gets frame pacing caught up on Crossfire to SLI.


HardOCP shows the CF 290X butchering the 780 Ti the only reason they put out similar framerates is due to the 780 Ti running lower settings.
High res and CF is AMD territory with the Hawaii cards.


----------



## Vagrant Storm

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ImJJames*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Robilar*
> 
> Cherry picking review slides tsk tsk
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I guess it just depends what site you go to.
Click to expand...

That Guru3D is only one that I've found...those Korean benches look suspicious from the top down. For one...adding additional Nvidia cards lowers performance. For two...their crossfire numbers are like...double what DICE said they were.

From what little I've found...it seems like SLI (on DX11 of course) doesn't suffer from the CPU bottlenecks...other things maybe. It is like the game, or the drivers for AMD, are hurting crossfire...and now Mantle seems to be fixing it. Seems a little too convenient.


----------



## sugarhell

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Robilar*
> 
> The first HardOCP review you linked only tests the 780, not the Ti mate
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The second HardOCP review, here is a screenshot:
> 
> http://s1201.photobucket.com/user/RobilarOCN/media/chart3_zps824397af.jpg.html
> 
> Not to mention, aren't the 290X supposed to be the 4K killers?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My point was that depending on the review site and testing done, results can vary quite a bit.
> 
> It's safe to say 290x in Crossfire or 780Ti in SLI are going to be awesome. At least once AMD gets frame pacing caught up on Crossfire to SLI.


Hmm you cant even check properly. In the first one they test a titan too.

Second in the second one its multimonitor . And 290x crossfire match 780 ti sli with 4xmsaa against 2xmsaa


----------



## skupples

nvidia fails @ BF4, this is pretty well documented.

I know I use over 3gb of vram in 5760x1080 in BF4 with those level of settings.


----------



## SpeedyVT

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *skupples*
> 
> nvidia fails @ BF4, this is pretty well documented.
> 
> I know I use over 3gb of vram in 5760x1080 in BF4 with those level of settings.


BF4 is a horribly designed game.


----------



## sugarhell

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SpeedyVT*
> 
> BF4 is a horribly designed game.


On the network part because it use 10 hz engine. As a graphic engine you cant find something better ( maybe cry engine)


----------



## rdr09

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *maarten12100*
> 
> HardOCP shows the CF 290X butchering the 780 Ti the only reason they put out similar framerates is due to the 780 Ti running lower settings.
> High res and CF is AMD territory with the Hawaii cards.


3GB.

edit: missed skupples post. my bad.


----------



## ImJJames

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Vagrant Storm*
> 
> That Guru3D is only one that I've found...those Korean benches look suspicious from the top down. For one...adding additional Nvidia cards lowers performance. For two...their crossfire numbers are like...double what DICE said they were.
> 
> From what little I've found...it *seems like SLI (on DX11 of course) doesn't suffer from the CPU bottlenecks...other things maybe. It is like the game, or the drivers for AMD, are hurting crossfire...and now Mantle seems to be fixing it. Seems a little too convenient*.


lol


----------



## bencher

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ImJJames*
> 
> lol


I laughed also lol.


----------



## pokerapar88

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *tsm106*
> 
> Yea, it's only enabled for Hawaii gpus atm.


Actually I can enable it in my 7970 and I tested BF4 and StarSwarm and both got a perf boost, though BF4 got around 10 fps more only, against around 200%+ on StarSwarm.... but higher fluidness


----------



## maarten12100

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *rdr09*
> 
> 3GB.
> 
> edit: missed skupples post. my bad.


3GB doesn't matter as much as you would expect because it actually reserves that memory it isn't actually in use yet. You can clearly see this with the Titan in the mix and this is just single card the gap would be even bigger in CF vs SLI.
http://www.hardocp.com/article/2013/11/17/battlefield_4_video_card_performance_iq_review/4

BF4 is so AMD focussed it isn't even funny about just as not funny as how good the Hawaii cards run MLL while it is a Nv title.


----------



## skupples

Just have to remember, more GPU's, more vram used. @least, this has been my experience. I'm not saying it's the game, & I have no concrete evidence, but it seems as if sli reserves/uses extra memory. Specially tri-sli, my vram usage went up a good 500mb+ in every game.

hard OCP benches hurt my head, they are always changing the settings from one card to another. Just show all 4 @ the exact same settings.

bf4 runs like arse on my titans even when they are OC'd to 1300+mhz w/ 7gigglehurtz memory.


----------



## kersoz2003

*Guys !! good news !! I guess I finally find a solution to the mantle stuttering in bf4 :

Step by step what I have done :

1- Without uninstalling 13.12 , I installed 14.1 over it.( the very first important step)

2- Then I installed windows 8.1 over windows 8 ( the most important step I guess)

2- Then I had to reinstall 14.1 driver

3- Then I get into bf4 iand activated mantle

tataaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

All the issues I and we were facing is gone now







no stutter or fps dips ...with my r9 280x it is flying on ultra with mantle..

Do as I do step by step.

I hope this time I finally find the solution







give me feedback after doing these.

keep in mind I am just testing it now..the problems can occur again.. keep in touch here.*


----------



## bencher

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kersoz2003*
> 
> Guys !! good news !! I guess I finally find a solution to the mantle stuttering in bf4 :
> 
> Step by step what I have done :
> 
> 1- Without uninstalling 13.12 , I installed 14.1 over it.( the very first important step)
> 
> 2- Then I installed windows 8.1 over windows 8 ( the most important step I guess)
> 
> 2- Then I had to reinstall 14.1 driver
> 
> 3- Then I get into bf4 iand activated mantle
> 
> tataaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
> 
> All the issues I and we were facing is gone now
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> no stutter or fps dips ...with my r9 280x it is flying on ultra with mantle..
> 
> Do as I do step by step.
> 
> I hope this time I finally find the solution
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> give me feedback after doing these.


That is too much work. I will wait until the issue is resolved.

I am not having a bad experience either.


----------



## ZealotKi11er

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *skupples*
> 
> Just have to remember, more GPU's, more vram used. @least, this has been my experience. I'm not saying it's the game, & I have no concrete evidence, but it seems as if sli reserves/uses extra memory. Specially tri-sli, my vram usage went up a good 500mb+ in every game.
> 
> hard OCP benches hurt my head, they are always changing the settings from one card to another. Just show all 4 @ the exact same settings.
> 
> bf4 runs like arse on my titans even when they are OC'd to 1300+mhz w/ 7gigglehurtz memory.


They actuality test the cards properly. 40 fps means nothing if its not smooth. They have been doing these test before frame pacing because they could tell fps does not equal better experience.


----------



## maarten12100

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *skupples*
> 
> Just have to remember, more GPU's, more vram used. @least, this has been my experience. I'm not saying it's the game, & I have no concrete evidence, but it seems as if sli reserves/uses extra memory. Specially tri-sli, my vram usage went up a good 500mb+ in every game.
> 
> hard OCP benches hurt my head, they are always changing the settings from one card to another. Just show all 4 @ the exact same settings.
> 
> bf4 runs like arse on my titans even when they are OC'd to 1300+mhz w/ 7gigglehurtz memory.


I know I guess it confuses everyone but it is the reason why they don't use bars because it has to work but you got to pay attention real [H]ard to notice.
The thing is they run the bench at max playable settings so it has some real world value.


----------



## velocityx

donno whats up but 14.1 are a disaster for me. was away for the weekend, just got back, got the drivers, went to programs and features, got rid of the drivers, reboot into safe mode, did a ddu clean, installed 14.1 and it's just awful.

performance in direct x is really bad, crossfire scaling is 0. getting terrible perfoverlay.drawgraph 1 looking graphs. mantle is even worse, around 25fps in test range.

I know crossfire aint supported so I disabled it in the drivers, but the problem is still there, single card, directx runs so so, mantle, half the performance of direct x.

this is on windows 8.1, fx 8320 at 4.5ghz and stock 290's. I'm gonna go to bed now but I really feel like going back to 13.11 v9.5 to get my 100fps 1440p in crossfire back.


----------



## revro

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *maarten12100*
> 
> 3GB doesn't matter as much as you would expect because it actually reserves that memory it isn't actually in use yet. You can clearly see this with the Titan in the mix and this is just single card the gap would be even bigger in CF vs SLI.
> http://www.hardocp.com/article/2013/11/17/battlefield_4_video_card_performance_iq_review/4
> 
> BF4 is so AMD focussed it isn't even funny about just as not funny as how good the Hawaii cards run MLL while it is a Nv title.


you mean like Batman, AC and Witcher are nvidia focussed? I also saw those benchmarks on that korean site and in that case it aint pretty for amd.

BF4, Dirt have like 20fps more for r9 290 against 780, but Batman, AC and Witcher are where nvidia excels
http://udteam.tistory.com/585
Crysis 3 is same for both vendors, tough when Star citizen comes with mantle it might get interesting to see how much does mantle help a cryengine game with a top cpu 4770k or a 6 core intel

best
revro


----------



## kersoz2003

*windows 8.1 does a little help but after a while stuttering occurs again during the game...so no luck again with 14.1..*


----------



## Zaid

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Robilar*
> 
> The first HardOCP review you linked only tests the 780, not the Ti mate
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The second HardOCP review, here is a screenshot:
> 
> http://s1201.photobucket.com/user/RobilarOCN/media/chart3_zps824397af.jpg.html
> 
> Not to mention, aren't the 290X supposed to be the 4K killers?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> My point was that depending on the review site and testing done, results can vary quite a bit.
> 
> It's safe to say 290x in Crossfire or 780Ti in SLI are going to be awesome. At least once AMD gets frame pacing caught up on Crossfire to SLI.


What do these benchmarks have to do with Mantle? which is the topic of this thread.


----------



## skupples

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kersoz2003*
> 
> *windows 8.1 does a little help but after a while stuttering occurs again during the game...so no luck again with 14.1..*


I feel like you are probably causing allot of lurkers wasted time with your super epic bold guides of success, just to post 30 minutes later that it's not working...

After following the two main Mantle threads here, & on other forums I *think* the answer to the question of "why does it start stuttering" is *memory leak.*


----------



## Kosai

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *skupples*
> 
> After following the two main Mantle threads here, & on other forums I the answer to the question of "why does it start stuttering" is *memory leak.*


wat

How so? Could you elaborate a bit please? I'm curious to know how I have a memory having 12gb triple channel ram. Maybe I'm just a being a nub here and not comprehending you completely, please enlighten me.


----------



## skupples

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Kosai*
> 
> wat
> 
> How so? Could you elaborate a bit please? I'm curious to know how I have a memory having 12gb triple channel ram. Maybe I'm just a being a nub here and not comprehending you completely, please enlighten me.


Vram Memory leak.


----------



## Kosai

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *skupples*
> 
> Vram Memory leak.


Ahh, now it makes sense... Im assuming this something AMD solve through a driver upate?


----------



## maarten12100

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Kosai*
> 
> Ahh, now it makes sense... Im assuming this something AMD solve through a driver upate?


The fault lies with Dice clearly their engine is doing something goofy. Unless Star Swarm also uses way more vram in Mantle mode than in dX (as in 3x as much while only having 2x as many units)


----------



## vloeibaarglas

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *maarten12100*
> 
> The fault lies with Dice clearly their engine is doing something goofy. Unless Star Swarm also uses way more vram in Mantle mode than in dX (as in 3x as much while only having 2x as many units)


In addition to the possible memory leak, and I think the spikes might be caused by DICE's engine trying to allocate more VRAM than available on the card. For example, a lot of games are coded as to not exceed 2GB VRAM at 1080p in order to accommodate Nvidia users.


----------



## Seallone

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *sugarhell*
> 
> I like the fact that you compare 1440p with 1080p
> 
> Meanwhilke a complete review about MP because guru3d only do SP which is useless none plays SP bf4
> 
> http://www.hardocp.com/article/2013/11/17/battlefield_4_video_card_performance_iq_review/4
> 
> http://www.hardocp.com/article/2014/01/26/xfx_r9_290x_double_dissipation_edition_crossfire_review/3


Stop the lies ffs, Im interested in mantle. Always been with nvidia.

My 780ti's sli at max setting's never dip below 120fps. 1080p

88.7 fps 1080p lies

But i play with, setting are max,4msaa 120 res scale. with overclock. never dip below 120. That chart Is bull. Im glad to hear mantle is good tho. win for all of us.


----------



## Ninjaskid

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Seallone*
> 
> Stop the lies ffs, Im interested in mantle. Always been with nvidia.
> 
> My 780ti's sli at max setting's never dip below 120fps. 1080p
> 
> 88.7 fps 1080p lies
> 
> But i play with, setting are max,4msaa 120 res scale. with overclock. never dip below 120. That chart Is bull. Im glad to hear mantle is good tho. win for all of us.


That chart is not 1080p it's 5760x1200 and 3840x2160


----------



## maarten12100

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Seallone*
> 
> Stop the lies ffs, Im interested in mantle. Always been with nvidia.
> 
> My 780ti's sli at max setting's never dip below 120fps. 1080p
> 
> 88.7 fps 1080p lies
> 
> But i play with, setting are max,4msaa 120 res scale. with overclock. never dip below 120. That chart Is bull. Im glad to hear mantle is good tho. win for all of us.


No reason to get all defensive it is just a fact that BF4 favours AMD which isn't strange considering AMD made a 8 million dollar pledge early on.


----------



## Forceman

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kersoz2003*
> 
> *Guys !! good news !! I guess I finally find a solution to the mantle stuttering in bf4 :
> 
> Step by step what I have done :
> 
> 1- Without uninstalling 13.12 , I installed 14.1 over it.( the very first important step)
> 
> 2- Then I installed windows 8.1 over windows 8 ( the most important step I guess)
> 
> 2- Then I had to reinstall 14.1 driver
> 
> 3- Then I get into bf4 iand activated mantle
> 
> tataaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
> 
> All the issues I and we were facing is gone now
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> no stutter or fps dips ...with my r9 280x it is flying on ultra with mantle..
> 
> Do as I do step by step.
> 
> I hope this time I finally find the solution
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> give me feedback after doing these.
> 
> keep in mind I am just testing it now..the problems can occur again.. keep in touch here.*


Dude, give it a rest. It's a driver/Mantle problem, you aren't going to come up with the solution. This is the third time you've "solved" this problem.


----------



## Seallone

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ninjaskid*
> 
> That chart is not 1080p it's 5760x1200 and 3840x2160


Its 1080p lol


----------



## Seallone

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ImJJames*


1080p


----------



## Imouto

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Robilar*
> 
> Not to mention, aren't the 290X supposed to be the 4K killers?


You should check the apples to apples sections. The 290X CF slaughters the 780 Ti SLI in both multi-monitor and 4K.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Robilar*
> 
> It's safe to say 290x in Crossfire or 780Ti in SLI are going to be awesome. At least once AMD gets frame pacing caught up on Crossfire to SLI.


From the conclusions:
Quote:


> We did not experience any choppiness or stuttering with R9 290X CrossFire like we do with the previous generation. There isn't much to say on this topic anymore because with R9 290X CrossFire it just works, and it does a good job at it.
> 
> We only experienced one stuttering situation and that was with NVIDIA GeForce GTX 780 Ti SLI in Far Cry 3 at 4K. This could simply be a bug, but we did experience it, and it did affect the in-game settings we were able to play at. Overall, the smoothness between SLI and CrossFire in every game seems to be on par now. We have no major complaints.


Now look at what you've done. You got a lot of people correcting you for pages and I bet that wasn't what you were looking for.


----------



## Kosai

Sadly, the stuttering with mantle is so unbearable I have no other choice to switch back to DX11 for now If I want smooth game play. The gains were nice, but the stuttering is just awful.


----------



## skupples

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Seallone*
> 
> Its 1080p lol


the [H] is 2560x and 1200p eyefinity.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Kosai*
> 
> Sadly, the stuttering with mantle is so unbearable I have no other choice to switch back to DX11 for now If I want smooth game play. The gains were nice, but the stuttering is just awful.


it's a good proof of concept. Released too early. They really should of NOT went on a promising spree spouting off possible release dates month after month.

They should of done it like Star Citizen. It's ready when it's ready "Soon ™"


----------



## mboner1

The people who are stuttering really should be mentioning whether or not they are getting a drop on gpu usage and core clock speeds. from my short experience so far with mantle, they are 2 different issues.


----------



## Kosai

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mboner1*
> 
> The people who are stuttering really should be mentioning whether or not they are getting a drop on gpu usage and core clock speeds. from my short experience so far with mantle, they are 2 different issues.


No, my 7970 shows 100% usage with both mantle and DX11.


----------



## Imouto

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mboner1*
> 
> The people who are stuttering really should be mentioning whether or not they are getting a drop on gpu usage and core clock speeds. from my short experience so far with mantle, they are 2 different issues.


And post if they have a tweaked cfg.


----------



## Kosai

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Imouto*
> 
> And post if they have a tweaked cfg.


Nothing tweaked, all stock config... I use MSI Afterburner to read results during game by alt tabbing since the OSD wont work on BF4.


----------



## Imouto

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Kosai*
> 
> Nothing tweaked, all stock config... I use MSI Afterburner to read results during game by alt tabbing since the OSD wont work on BF4.


Have you tried running it without Afterburner? The Statistics Server bundled with Afterburner can mess things up. At least it does with my enb'd Skyrim while it works fine with the vanilla one.


----------



## mboner1

Alright, i have had a few issues and they seem to be resolved, i'm not trying to tell you guys "I FOUND THE FIX" , just what i have done to get rid of the issues i have had.

1.Problem: gpu usage dropping in games and core clock dropping in games.

SOLUTION: Re install 14.1 and test games (more than just bf4) until this behavior stops. GPU usage and core clock should not be dropping while gaming, it's not a issue with the driver but with the install. However once the clocks weren't dropping in game (correct behavior), they weren't dropping on desktop either after restarting pc.

2.Problem: gpu not downclocking @ idle (desktop).

SOLUTION: Uninstall msi afterburner. Don't run fraps AT ALL (not just in bf4). Don't run gpu-z AT ALL. Msi afterburner was unable to control clock speeds correctly with the new driver. I tried various other overclocking utilities and the one that works (downclocks at idle/ desktop) is the latest asus gpu tweak with a few setting needed to be done. First the fan curve is not user defined by default to unlock curves and not just a generic number for manual you need to click the hexagon type shape down the bottom along side profiles. Secondly it will go back to default clocks (and NOT downclock) if you don't go to settings>tune tab>tune setting> and tick keep setting for next start on close of application.

That's it, i now don't downclock in games but i do at desktop. So to summarize i believe the cause of MY problems were repeated bad installs even tho ccc didn't have any warnings or errors only identifiable by watching clock speeds and gpu usage, and once that is resolved the other issue is failing to downclock at idle. Not sure if this is caused by msi afterburner (i don't really think so) but it certainly isn't fixable with msi afterburner. If your not having those issues then disregard. If you are well hopefully it helps, can't hurt to try right. I gotta say i'm very happy with mantle, and the performance in other games with this driver apart from these very annoying issues.


----------



## Kosai

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Imouto*
> 
> Have you tried running it without Afterburner? The Statistics Server bundled with Afterburner can mess things up. At least it does with my enb'd Skyrim while it works fine with the vanilla one.


I tired for the past hour on different maps, no dice. Same stutter was present.


----------



## vinton13

Question.
I didn't play BF4 in a while (over a month). Is there a bug in the game that causes it to crash (sometimes causes the computer to freeze and restart) after a few minutes? Or is it just the new driver?


----------



## Ultracarpet

Hmm. I'm not getting much stutter (maybe once a game) but I have noticed that my overclock isn't doing anything. My core clock bounces around 940-980 while playing, the oc is set to 1150.... I did notice though; when I exited the game, there was a quick jump up to 1150 before going back down to idle clocks. Is anyone else able to OC while using mantle?


----------



## keikei

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *vinton13*
> 
> Question.
> I didn't play BF4 in a while (over a month). Is there a bug in the game that causes it to crash (sometimes causes the computer to freeze and restart) after a few minutes? Or is it just the new driver?


I personally havent heard of that bug. I play the game daily. Sounds new.


----------



## mboner1

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ultracarpet*
> 
> Hmm. I'm not getting much stutter (maybe once a game) but I have noticed that my overclock isn't doing anything. My core clock bounces around 940-980 while playing, the oc is set to 1150.... I did notice though; when I exited the game, there was a quick jump up to 1150 before going back down to idle clocks. Is anyone else able to OC while using mantle?


See my post above. Try asus gpu tweak instead of afterburner. I would recommend disabling ULPS as i ALWAYS do that, but i haven't bothered to this time and it shouldn't be downclocking unless you have v-sync on anyway even with ulps still enabled.


----------



## Ultracarpet

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mboner1*
> 
> See my post above. Try asus gpu tweak instead of afterburner. I would recommend disabling ULPS as i ALWAYS do that, but i haven't bothered to this time and it shouldn't be downclocking unless you have v-sync on anyway even with ulps still enabled.


Disabled ULPS, but asus gpu tweak doesn't give me voltage control and i'm too lazy to flash bios right now lol. Even so, this card is 1030 out of the box... it should be running at that at least... I'll be bach in a bit from testing.

Update: It seems that no matter what I do, the clock wants to just settle back down into the mid 900 range. OC'd or not.


----------



## Robilar

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Imouto*
> 
> You should check the apples to apples sections. The 290X CF slaughters the 780 Ti SLI in both multi-monitor and 4K.
> From the conclusions:
> Now look at what you've done. You got a lot of people correcting you for pages and I bet that wasn't what you were looking for.


Spirited discussion is always welcome here. You are right though. My point was not to start a flamewar (which seems to happen pretty much constantly here over the last year). I was indicating that different sites provide wildly different results in similar (not necessarily identical though) game setups.

I'm too old and weary to get involved in baitfests with some of our younger and let's say less "polite' members.

My experience with AMD cards over the last 10 years has been hit or miss. 7970's in Crossfire was a definite miss. Then again that was 8 months ago. A lot can change in 8 months. Currently I am quite happy with a single card although I do have another 780Ti sitting in the box waiting on installation (have to swap out my power supply first and that's a major chore).

Once AMD gets frame pacing sorted out to where it equals SLI in terms of smoothness (and last month, my mates system with paired R290's was not there yet) and a performance boost from Mantle, AMD should be in a very competitive position.

Then again, G-Sync may be a game changer as well. The members here at OCN that have installed G-sync kits on their monitors are raving about the results. I guess it comes down to what kind of buyer you are; Bang for the buck or best overall experience and performance irrespective of cost. OCN has lots of both


----------



## skupples

AMD's brand new architecture revision beats out Nvidia's over two years old Kepler in some things?! no way!


----------



## bencher

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *skupples*
> 
> AMD's brand new architecture revision beats out Nvidia's over two years old Kepler in some things?! no way!


what are you talking about?


----------



## mboner1

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bencher*
> 
> what are you talking about?


I know right. Just some random trolling it would seem lol.

Might be in the wrong thread, here skuuples.. http://battlelog.battlefield.com/bf4/forum/threadview/2979150493822229349/


----------



## bencher

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mboner1*
> 
> I know right. Just some random trolling it would seem lol.
> 
> Might be in the wrong thread, here skuuples.. http://battlelog.battlefield.com/bf4/forum/threadview/2979150493822229349/


I am the one who gets the infractions though....


----------



## skupples

No no no. Was in response to other comments in the thread. It's a statement of truth. Even if 780Ti is new to the market, kepler is ancient technology @ this point. People forget that they brought the big die over from enterprise.

some times I feel like i'm the only person on OCN who doesn't play BF4. Must be an age thing.


----------



## bencher

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *skupples*
> 
> No no no. Was in response to other comments in the thread. It's a statement of truth. Even if 780Ti is new to the market, kepler is ancient technology @ this point. People forget that they brought the big die over from enterprise.
> 
> some times I feel like i'm the only person on OCN who doesn't play BF4. Must be an age thing.


and this is relevant because?


----------



## mboner1

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bencher*
> 
> I am the one who gets the infractions though....


Edited.


----------



## mboner1

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *skupples*
> 
> I don't mean to be rude, but can you read? It was in response to the incessant bench mark linking. A comment (that has nothing to do with mantle) towards something that has nothing to do with mantle.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ha, you should see my infractions page. I'm 2 serious infractions away from a perma-ban.
> 
> You don't know who is & isn't getting infracted, as it's against TOS to bring up a specific infraction. Assuming that the mods show any sort of bias is silly. You will figure out that they rule with a firm, & iron fist against all colors of the rainbow.
> 
> all this us vs. them nonsense. It seems to be getting worse.
> 
> Everyone should love mantle, and the ones who don't should be ignored. pretty simple.


Fair enough.


----------



## Ultracarpet

Ya so, I just tested a bunch of random different settings, utilities, OC's, direct x and mantle... All same result. As soon as I get in game my clocks drop into the mid 900's.

Also... seems the only game that does this is BF4.

I think it has something to do with the power limit being buggy, as the voltage drops down with the core clock.... My temps are under 80c at all times cuz of my custom fan profile.... I don't know what is going on...


----------



## mboner1

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ultracarpet*
> 
> Ya so, I just tested a bunch of random different settings, utilities, OC's, direct x and mantle... All same result. As soon as I get in game my clocks drop into the mid 900's.
> 
> Also... seems the only game that does this is BF4.
> 
> I think it has something to do with the power limit being buggy, as the voltage drops down with the core clock.... My temps are under 80c at all times cuz of my custom fan profile.... I don't know what is going on...


Your experiences match mine on the previous page. Try re installing 14.1 until you see that it doesn't drop the core clock down, once that happens you will probably notice it won't downclock on the desktop tho..


----------



## robotninja

So I'll begin this post with saying I am now 40 pages behind on the discusson of Mantle and Bf4 and gains and etc etc.

My experience has been almost a wash.

Not extensive by any means but I have been playing a lot of bf4, something like 2-4 hours every day or every other day. I have definitely seen some issues but for the most part it has run well and has been entirely playable. Around 120 hours in the last 6-7 weeks.

Mantle on the whole "feels" smoother and more consistant and has generally run around the same frame rates if not slightly better. DX11 i was hovering right around 45-50 and Mantle I am getting around 60 on a slightly more steady basis. Both are running on high with 4x AA.

My issue has been some WICKED fps drops randomly but on a fairly steady basis. Down to 10 and lower FPS to the point where it basically freezes the game for a second and nothing is happening. As you all know ina game like this when that happens you generally end up recovering dead. Ce La Vie.

Not a huge issue but none the less an issue. I will probably run it a little bit more just to see if I can get some more info and try and troubleshoot for AMD but it seems entirely random I have seen the drop while standing around by myself and while right in the heart of battle.

I also have a friend who is running and OC I7 3770 who reports the same issue. He is currently running on 1 7950 because his 2nd is a getting an rma and I am waiting to see his results with 2 cards even though support may still be a ways off.

Im here if you have questions just trying to get as much info about Mantle out as we can.


----------



## Ultracarpet

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mboner1*
> 
> Your experiences match mine on the previous page. Try re installing 14.1 until you see that it doesn't drop the core clock down, once that happens you will probably notice it won't downclock on the desktop tho..


Alright, cool thanks man.


----------



## Deadboy90

Alright so these 14.1 drivers are quite buggy im afraid to say. I thought it might be mantle but i was just playing dayz and got the same kind of crash i was getting with BF4. Ill go back to 13.12 for now.


----------



## Brutuz

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *JMCB*
> 
> Well I have CF 290X and I see negative gains because Crossfire doesn't work (even if you try to enable it in DX11 now). I also saw negative results in mining (was going from 850 kh/s per card down to 420 kh/s). Yeah, these drivers are getting uninstalled quickly...


Mining on my girlfriends HD7850 is still around 360kh/s as it was on 13.11. I haven't tested my HD7950 but it's been varying on 13.11 between 400 and 600 randomly anyway...I think that it being summer here doesn't agree with this card mining.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Robilar*
> 
> At least once AMD gets frame pacing caught up on Crossfire to SLI.


Even that depends. The frame pacing issue is definitely not noticeable to everyone as much as some people try to make it seem like it is. (Source: Used HD4890 CFX, no stuttering. Plus common sense, SLI had it before Kepler but if it was as bad as PCPer made it seem people would have noticed that their second GTX 580/HD6970 wasn't doing anything)
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *skupples*
> 
> AMD's brand new architecture revision beats out Nvidia's over two years old Kepler in some things?! no way!


AMD and nVidia go about this very differently, it's not worth comparing them like that.

AMD tends to do bigger updates randomly (eg. VLIW, GCN) while nVidia does smaller updates then a refresh. (Tesla to Fermi, Fermi to Kepler. They're similar to say, Conroe to Nehalem to Sandy in that they're heavily based off of the previous iteration with significant updates afaik)

...Not to mention, GCN is actually older than Kepler. GCN had a minor update with the R* series/the HD7790 but that's it. That's unless I'm forgetting when the HD7970 came out...


----------



## Ninjaskid

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Seallone*
> 
> Its 1080p lol


I thought you were trying to say something about the [H] chart's i guess i missed something on one of the earlier pages.


----------



## SkyNetSTI

I have a chance to flip my reference non ti msi gtx 780 with r290x for less then a 100$ should I???? Thanks!


----------



## mboner1

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ultracarpet*
> 
> Alright, cool thanks man.


How did you go, get it sorted?


----------



## Kuivamaa

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *skupples*
> 
> AMD's brand new architecture revision beats out Nvidia's over two years old Kepler in some things?! no way!


Both GCN and Kepler have about the same age (1 or 2 months give or take). GCN 1.1 was an unofficial title for the 7790 card (that sports power efficiency, true audio etc) and newer ones but I am sure nvidia isn't sitting idle since Q1 2012, kepler receives love too.


----------



## Ultracarpet

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mboner1*
> 
> How did you go, get it sorted?


kinda... I have done 4 fresh installs without any real change...

I can't use anything but overdrive to OC lol....

If I disable CCC overdrive, disable afterburners OC, restart, then go back into CCC overdrive and use it to OC, it will stay steady at the clocks I give it.

I can do 1100/1500 at stock volts so it's not even that big of a difference... just makes me mad because I can't even use the custom fan curve in afterburner without my clocks dropping









Update: GPU tweak doesn't down clock me and lets me have a custom curve!!! didn't see how to set it up on my first read through :S

So I don't get any down clocking anymore... just no voltage control, so the oc is limited. No biggie tho. Thanks again man.


----------



## maarten12100

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SkyNetSTI*
> 
> I have a chance to flip my reference non ti msi gtx 780 with r290x for less then a 100$ should I???? Thanks!


Sounds like a good deal the R9 290X is 100$ more expensive in retail if not more and is a tad stonger and future focussed. For Mantle I think it is too early to tell so don't make the switch based on just that.


----------



## Clocknut

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Kuivamaa*
> 
> Both GCN and Kepler have about the same age (1 or 2 months give or take). GCN 1.1 was an unofficial title for the 7790 card (that sports power efficiency, true audio etc) and newer ones but I am sure nvidia isn't sitting idle since Q1 2012, kepler receives love too.


I highly doubt my 7790 will get any true audio. The trueaudio chip is being disabled for good....


----------



## mboner1

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ultracarpet*
> 
> kinda... I have done 4 fresh installs without any real change...
> 
> I can't use anything but overdrive to OC lol....
> 
> If I disable CCC overdrive, disable afterburners OC, restart, then go back into CCC overdrive and use it to OC, it will stay steady at the clocks I give it.
> 
> I can do 1100/1500 at stock volts so it's not even that big of a difference... just makes me mad because I can't even use the custom fan curve in afterburner without my clocks dropping
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Update: GPU tweak doesn't down clock me and lets me have a custom curve!!! didn't see how to set it up on my first read through :S
> 
> So I don't get any down clocking anymore... just no voltage control, so the oc is limited. No biggie tho. Thanks again man.


No worries man, glad it helped. I will say that it seems the gpu can still get confused, put on bf4 before and it was getting 40fps and laggy but showing up as 1080 core clock and 5150 memory (what i have in gpu tweak) but a restart fixed that and no downclocking in games but it does downclock at the desktop. I also noticed gpu tweak has a switch to set the clock speed for 2d modes which i will try if it gets stuck again which will definitely prove that the card is having issues with switching modes when it should.

Have you noticed mantle seems way better since stopping the card from down clocking?


----------



## Ultracarpet

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *mboner1*
> 
> No worries man, glad it helped. I will say that it seems the gpu can still get confused, put on bf4 before and it was getting 40fps and laggy but showing up as 1080 core clock and 5150 memory (what i have in gpu tweak) but a restart fixed that and no downclocking in games but it does downclock at the desktop. I also noticed gpu tweak has a switch to set the clock speed for 2d modes which i will try if it gets stuck again which will definitely prove that the card is having issues with switching modes when it should.
> 
> Have you noticed mantle seems way better since stopping the card from down clocking?


yea, got another 10 fps bump from the clock being held at 1100. Smooth as butta... now I just gotta tinker with the settings. Can't decide whether I want to keep looking at ultra in all it's glory, or just res scale like 200% on low settings so there isn't as much on the screen and things are just super clear....


----------



## mboner1

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Ultracarpet*
> 
> yea, got another 10 fps bump from the clock being held at 1100. Smooth as butta... now I just gotta tinker with the settings. Can't decide whether I want to keep looking at ultra in all it's glory, or just res scale like 200% on low settings so there isn't as much on the screen and things are just super clear....


Yeah, same, so much smoother. This is why i think people need to take note of whether or not the clocks are throttling and gpu usage is dropping (from a bad install) when they talk about "stutter" with mantle and this driver, or whether the clock speed is fine and gpu usage is fine and it's just a random spike, but there is a big difference between the 2. The former being almost unplayable.


----------



## Offler

Ok. lets change the topic a bit...

People playing BF4 started to question image quality. I have seen few pictures and its certain that BF4 with Mantle is certainly brighter.

I just want to say that comparing Mantle and DirectX is like comparing apples to oranges, so such things will happen. On the other hand it always depend on every game engine.

Some people stated that FPS gain in BF4 is partially archieved by omitting of some effects, but according to screenshots DX11 vs Mantle i have already seen, there is difference indeed, but I can hardly speculate how much effects were actually working... Some graphic debugger compatible with both Dx11 and Mantle can make much better measurement of this kind as limited perception.


----------



## Brutuz

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Clocknut*
> 
> I highly doubt my 7790 will get any true audio. The trueaudio chip is being disabled for good....


I doubt it. It'd likely be just a matter of adding it to the allowed GPUs, especially since the R7 260X is a rebranded one.


----------



## kcuestag

I'm pretty sure True Audio will only be available on new gen cards, so R9 290X, R9 290, R270X (I think?) and so on.


----------



## Myst-san

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kcuestag*
> 
> I'm pretty sure True Audio will only be available on new gen cards, so R9 290X, R9 290, R270X (I think?) and so on.


What about flashing 7790 to 260X?


----------



## maarten12100

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Myst-san*
> 
> What about flashing 7790 to 260X?


different pcb layout and different amounts of memory


----------



## Myst-san

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *maarten12100*
> 
> different pcb layout and different amounts of memory


There is bound to have people trying to see if it work here on OC.


----------



## SkyNetSTI

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *maarten12100*
> 
> Sounds like a good deal the R9 290X is 100$ more expensive in retail if not more and is a tad stonger and future focussed. For Mantle I think it is too early to tell so don't make the switch based on just that.


pfff I was late, guy sold his 290x... Yeah 290x objectively a bit faster than a Ti so its for sure faster then no-ti + mantle on the side. So minimum a ~20% extra fps is granted. Only minus I see is a heat and power consumption...


----------



## maarten12100

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SkyNetSTI*
> 
> pfff I was late, guy sold his 290x... Yeah 290x objectively a bit faster than a Ti so its for sure faster then no-ti + mantle on the side. So minimum a ~20% extra fps is granted. Only minus I see is a heat and power consumption...


Too bad well that extra heat and power consumption can be fixed with a normal cooler since the cooler it comes with makes it run hot and therefore consume 50W more than needed.


----------



## PureBlackFire

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kcuestag*
> 
> I'm pretty sure True Audio will only be available on new gen cards, so R9 290X, R9 290, R270X (I think?) and so on.


AFAIK, 270X doesn't support trueaudio.


----------



## Artev

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *robotninja*
> 
> So I'll begin this post with saying I am now 40 pages behind on the discusson of Mantle and Bf4 and gains and etc etc.
> 
> My experience has been almost a wash.
> 
> Not extensive by any means but I have been playing a lot of bf4, something like 2-4 hours every day or every other day. I have definitely seen some issues but for the most part it has run well and has been entirely playable. Around 120 hours in the last 6-7 weeks.
> 
> Mantle on the whole "feels" smoother and more consistant and has generally run around the same frame rates if not slightly better. DX11 i was hovering right around 45-50 and Mantle I am getting around 60 on a slightly more steady basis. Both are running on high with 4x AA.
> 
> My issue has been some WICKED fps drops randomly but on a fairly steady basis. Down to 10 and lower FPS to the point where it basically freezes the game for a second and nothing is happening. As you all know ina game like this when that happens you generally end up recovering dead. Ce La Vie.
> 
> Not a huge issue but none the less an issue. I will probably run it a little bit more just to see if I can get some more info and try and troubleshoot for AMD but it seems entirely random I have seen the drop while standing around by myself and while right in the heart of battle.
> 
> I also have a friend who is running and OC I7 3770 who reports the same issue. He is currently running on 1 7950 because his 2nd is a getting an rma and I am waiting to see his results with 2 cards even though support may still be a ways off.
> 
> Im here if you have questions just trying to get as much info about Mantle out as we can.


i have a 7950 and had a hit and miss experience with Mantle so far (i assume mostly because it hasn't been optimized for the 7900 series yet) - when it works... it is so smooth. like, really really smooth. i didn't notice FPS bumps (i vsync at 60 fps) but overall the smoothness was startling. I asked my roommate to try to make sure it wasn't comfirmation bias (i didnt even tell him about mantle) and even he remarked how smooth it felt. That said, i had major frame rate dips occasionally and a somewhat wonky experience so i went back to DX, but i am excited about what i saw from mantle.


----------



## fantasyalive

Hardocp did their review and they got the stuttering issue. Though it seemed much more common at lower resolutions. They got a 7% increase at 4xAA ultra settings at 2560x1600 with a 3770k oc'd to 4.8 and xfx 290x.

Quote:


> Even though AMD Mantle was better overall with frame times, we did have some occasional oddities that are showing up in these graphs. Often times we have one or two large spikes that go toward 30ms frame times. This did not happen under D3D, only Mantle. This "lag" was felt in the game as we played. The game would hitch, or stutter briefly, and the graphs above show these large lag spikes.


http://www.hardocp.com/article/2014/02/03/amd_mantle_performance_preview_in_battlefield_4/4#.Uu_Wv2d3uUk


----------



## RagingCain

I hear there are serious differences in image quality/rendering, anyone here willing to do the legwork on this?

I would like someone to try with identical settings.

The draw distance looks to be fogged by about 10~20%. This would cause an FPS boost on any system.

Here is an example I have seen:
D3D11


Mantle


----------



## Kosai

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *fantasyalive*
> 
> Hardocp did their review and they got the stuttering issue. Though it seemed much more common at lower resolutions. They got a 7% increase at 4xAA ultra settings at 2560x1600 with a 3770k oc'd to 4.8 and xfx 290x.
> http://www.hardocp.com/article/2014/02/03/amd_mantle_performance_preview_in_battlefield_4/4#.Uu_Wv2d3uUk


Thanks for posting this, I'll go ahead a post a recap of what I've observed in my last gaming sessions.

Basically I get almost no performance difference between mantle or DX11, my minimum FPS are almost identical on both, with mantle having a few higher shots in fps than DX11, major difference is DX11 is still smooth as it's always been, Mantle seems smoother at first right before I i get into intense battles and that's when the stuttering starts.

As I've said before I understand the driver is in beta status, and I can only hope that AMD acknowledges my and many others problems using mantle... and hopefully they will refine mantle for use with GCN 1.0 cards. -For now I will stick with DX11 until a reliable release of Mantle is released.


----------



## sugarhell

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RagingCain*
> 
> I hear there are serious differences in image quality/rendering, anyone here willing to do the legwork on this?
> 
> I would like someone to try with identical settings.
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!
> 
> 
> 
> The draw distance looks to be fogged by about 10~20%. This would cause an FPS boost on any system.
> 
> Here is an example I have seen:
> D3D11
> 
> 
> Mantle




He already answered on this bug. BF4 still renders the stuffs behind the fog but you cant see them so easily

http://battlelog.battlefield.com/bf4/forum/threadview/2979150493821981180/


----------



## RagingCain

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *sugarhell*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *RagingCain*
> 
> I hear there are serious differences in image quality/rendering, anyone here willing to do the legwork on this?
> 
> I would like someone to try with identical settings.
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!
> 
> 
> 
> The draw distance looks to be fogged by about 10~20%. This would cause an FPS boost on any system.
> 
> Here is an example I have seen:
> D3D11
> 
> 
> Mantle
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> He already answered on this bug. BF4 still renders the stuffs behind the fog but you cant see them so easily
> 
> http://battlelog.battlefield.com/bf4/forum/threadview/2979150493821981180/
Click to expand...

Thanks for the find.

I disagree with him on it affecting performance though. What I can tell from various images and youtube videos is a reduced draw distance, a grainy film ala L4D2, over saturated Gamma, no HBAO, reduced lens flare and very low LOD over distance, even on High or Ultra settings. It is the equivalent to Dx11 on Medium and Low setting combinations... not that I want to rain on people's parades about Mantle though.


----------



## sugarhell

If the engine still renders everything behind the fog it doesnt affect performance. Because you cant see it doesnt mean its not there.


----------



## KyadCK

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RagingCain*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *sugarhell*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *RagingCain*
> 
> I hear there are serious differences in image quality/rendering, anyone here willing to do the legwork on this?
> 
> I would like someone to try with identical settings.
> 
> 
> Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!
> 
> 
> 
> The draw distance looks to be fogged by about 10~20%. This would cause an FPS boost on any system.
> 
> Here is an example I have seen:
> D3D11
> 
> 
> Mantle
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> He already answered on this bug. BF4 still renders the stuffs behind the fog but you cant see them so easily
> 
> http://battlelog.battlefield.com/bf4/forum/threadview/2979150493821981180/
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Thanks for the find.
> 
> I disagree with him on it affecting performance though. What I can tell from various images and youtube videos is a reduced draw distance, a grainy film ala L4D2, over saturated Gamma, no HBAO, reduced lens flare and very low LOD over distance, even on High or Ultra settings. It is the equivalent to Dx11 on Medium and Low setting combinations... not that I want to rain on people's parades about Mantle though.
Click to expand...

You know that just adding fog (exactly what your screenshot is) causes all those symptoms without changing anything right?


----------



## Offler

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RagingCain*
> 
> I hear there are serious differences in image quality/rendering, anyone here willing to do the legwork on this?
> 
> I would like someone to try with identical settings.
> 
> The draw distance looks to be fogged by about 10~20%. This would cause an FPS boost on any system.


I have seen multiple similar images as you posted. Most of them seemed to have lower color vibrance or higher gamma. Few of them were even fakes when object was not visible.

However those screenshots prove nothing. I mean - if somebody makes screens with graphic settings to ensure that both screens were made with exactly same graphic settings (excluding mantle) or a video, then it will be OK.

Edit: too late








At all, its as I have expected...


----------



## Imouto

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RagingCain*
> 
> The draw distance looks to be fogged by about 10~20%. This would cause an FPS boost on any system.


You again. Not that it surprises me anyway.

It's just a levels issue. No reduced draw distances conspiracy or made up stuff.

DX
Mantle
Mantle highlighted

This guy has the same issue.

DX
Mantle
Mantle highlighted

Let's check with yours.

DX
Mantle
Mantle Highlighted

Repi acknowledged it as a bug already.


----------



## RagingCain

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *sugarhell*
> 
> If the engine still renders everything behind the fog it doesnt affect performance. Because you cant see it doesnt mean its not there.


That isn't necessarily true, with things like volumetric fog and LoD. Fog was one way of increase FPS back in the day actually, the level was loaded and rendered with really low levels of detail. The quality was then increased and textures were populated as you walked closer to said object in the game.

I haven't seen it in a very long time though. I don't believe it is intended to fool anyone, I believe it when they say it is a bug. I just know from experience it should affect performance.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *KyadCK*
> 
> You know that just adding fog (exactly what your screenshot is) causes all those symptoms without changing anything right?


There is a little more to it, yes. I mention it above.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Offler*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *RagingCain*
> 
> I hear there are serious differences in image quality/rendering, anyone here willing to do the legwork on this?
> 
> I would like someone to try with identical settings.
> 
> The draw distance looks to be fogged by about 10~20%. This would cause an FPS boost on any system.
> 
> 
> 
> I have seen multiple similar images as you posted. Most of them seemed to have lower color vibrance or higher gamma. Few of them were even fakes when object was not visible.
> 
> However those screenshots prove nothing. I mean - if somebody makes screens with graphic settings to ensure that both screens were made with exactly same graphic settings (excluding mantle) or a video, then it will be OK.
> 
> Edit: too late
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> At all, its as I have expected...
Click to expand...

Exactly why I was asking if we can do some testing on OCN. I don't have my 7970s or I would do it myself.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Imouto*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *RagingCain*
> 
> The draw distance looks to be fogged by about 10~20%. This would cause an FPS boost on any system.
> 
> 
> 
> You again. Not that it surprises me anyway.
> 
> It's just a levels issue. No reduced draw distances conspiracy or made up stuff.
> 
> DX
> Mantle
> Mantle highlighted
> 
> This guy has the same issue.
> 
> DX
> Mantle
> Mantle highlighted
> 
> Let's check with yours.
> 
> DX
> Mantle
> Mantle Highlighted
> 
> Repi acknowledged it as a bug already.
Click to expand...

I would rather not use any screenshot or youtube video I have found. I would much prefer OCN users with experience and fundamental understanding of what to look for rather than jim-bob on a forum who doesn't know the difference between a CPU bottleneck for sadly dated programming.

The bug could greatly affect performance, both positive and/or negative. If there is a disconnect between what's rendering and what's making it to screen, it is possible all kinds of hiccups are being felt, some even taxing the ECC on board the GPU. Probably would fix "stuttering" and "performance issues" people are experiencing.


----------



## sugarhell

Because i already saw that bug on my gameplay the IQ is the same when the fog goes away.Or try a map without fog. Gamma is way higher on mantle rendering and fog is extremely white. Its a level issue not an IQ problem. A huge reduce on LOD and volumetric fog can possibly increase the performance by 20 fps easily.


----------



## KyadCK

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RagingCain*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *sugarhell*
> 
> If the engine still renders everything behind the fog it doesnt affect performance. Because you cant see it doesnt mean its not there.
> 
> 
> 
> That isn't necessarily true, with things like volumetric fog and LoD. Fog was one way of increase FPS back in the day actually, the level was loaded and rendered with really low levels of detail. The quality was then increased and textures were populated as you walked closer to said object in the game.
> 
> I haven't seen it in a very long time though. I don't believe it is intended to fool anyone, I believe it when they say it is a bug. I just know from experience it should affect performance.
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *KyadCK*
> 
> You know that just adding fog (exactly what your screenshot is) causes all those symptoms without changing anything right?
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> There is a little more to it, yes. I mention it above.
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *Offler*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *RagingCain*
> 
> I hear there are serious differences in image quality/rendering, anyone here willing to do the legwork on this?
> 
> I would like someone to try with identical settings.
> 
> The draw distance looks to be fogged by about 10~20%. This would cause an FPS boost on any system.
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> I have seen multiple similar images as you posted. Most of them seemed to have lower color vibrance or higher gamma. Few of them were even fakes when object was not visible.
> 
> However those screenshots prove nothing. I mean - if somebody makes screens with graphic settings to ensure that both screens were made with exactly same graphic settings (excluding mantle) or a video, then it will be OK.
> 
> Edit: too late
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> At all, its as I have expected...
> 
> Click to expand...
> 
> Exactly why I was asking if we can do some testing on OCN. I don't have my 7970s or I would do it myself.
Click to expand...

OK, but see, everything you said requires them to do work to use the fog to allow them to lower the settings at farther distances. It does not happen by default. Just adding fog does not change anything on it's own, and especially in your picture draw distance is exactly the same.


----------



## Imouto

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RagingCain*
> 
> I would rather not use any screenshot or youtube video I have found. I would much prefer OCN users with experience and fundamental understanding of what to look for rather than jim-bob on a forum who doesn't know the difference between a CPU bottleneck for sadly dated programming.


Then you should stop posting here asap. Your assumptions in the last page of this thread make zero sense for anyone that has the slightest knowledge about the matter as some members are pointing out.


----------



## mboner1

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RagingCain*
> 
> What I can tell from various images and youtube videos is a reduced draw distance, a grainy film ala L4D2, over saturated Gamma, no HBAO, reduced lens flare and very low LOD over distance, even on High or Ultra settings. It is the equivalent to Dx11 on Medium and Low setting combinations... not that I want to rain on people's parades about Mantle though.


Looool. This mantle really sucks then. Equal to dx11 on low or medium settings. That you know. All from a few pics on the internet. Your quite brilliant cain. You really are.









FTR I notice no difference in image quality except for fog on shanghai.

Also i believe nvidia have a reduced draw distance (smaller field of view) compared to amd if you want to go down that path.


----------



## RagingCain

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *KyadCK*
> 
> OK, but see, everything you said requires them to do work to use the fog to allow them to lower the settings at farther distances. It does not happen by default. Just adding fog does not change anything on it's own, and especially in your picture draw distance is exactly the same.


Yes...?

Long range level of detail isn't the same. This is analogous to pointing your gun at your feet and watching the FPS counter skyrocket, then looking at the furthers object with an very open view, watching the FPS counter essentially tank (in comparison.)

There more than likely is a rendering path way for putting a LoD reducing fog, that is accidentally being triggered when it shouldn't be. However, as a bug goes, and when fixed it could raise the performance even higher if two rendering pathways are being executed and one displayed.

It also can be the cause of the majority of performance issues people are having and crashing.


----------



## Imouto

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RagingCain*
> 
> There more than likely is a rendering path way for putting a LoD reducing fog, that is accidentally being triggered when it shouldn't be. However, as a bug goes, and when fixed it could raise the performance any higher if two rendering pathways are being executed and one displayed.
> 
> It also can be the cause of the majority of performance issues people are having and crashing.


I... I don't even...


----------



## sugarhell

I already told you that the LOD is the same on maps without that much fog. You still want to disagree. I think there is no point on this conversation


----------



## rdr09

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RagingCain*
> 
> Yes...?
> 
> Long range level of detail isn't the same. This is analogous to pointing your gun at your feet and watching the FPS counter skyrocket, then looking at the furthers object with an very open view, watching the FPS counter essentially tank (in comparison.)
> 
> There more than likely is a rendering path way for putting a LoD reducing fog, that is accidentally being triggered when it shouldn't be. However, as a bug goes, and when fixed it could raise the performance even higher if two rendering pathways are being executed and one displayed.
> 
> It also can be the cause of the majority of performance issues people are having and crashing.


thanks for the concern but don't you have a beta to test, too?

http://www.overclock.net/t/1462658/geforce-334-67-driver-beta-released-tonight


----------



## RagingCain

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *rdr09*
> 
> Quote:
> 
> 
> 
> Originally Posted by *RagingCain*
> 
> Yes...?
> 
> Long range level of detail isn't the same. This is analogous to pointing your gun at your feet and watching the FPS counter skyrocket, then looking at the furthers object with an very open view, watching the FPS counter essentially tank (in comparison.)
> 
> There more than likely is a rendering path way for putting a LoD reducing fog, that is accidentally being triggered when it shouldn't be. However, as a bug goes, and when fixed it could raise the performance even higher if two rendering pathways are being executed and one displayed.
> 
> It also can be the cause of the majority of performance issues people are having and crashing.
> 
> 
> 
> thanks for the concern but don't you have a beta to test, too?
> 
> http://www.overclock.net/t/1462658/geforce-334-67-driver-beta-released-tonight
Click to expand...

6 Days Ago. I am already there I have BF4 crashing for the first time since... well I bought the game







I was starting to feel left out of all the other nVidia issues out there.
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *sugarhell*
> 
> I already told you that the LOD is the same on maps without that much fog. You still want to disagree. I think there is no point on this conversation


I may not be an AMD user currently but I like poking around at these things. I just asked for help. Apparently the majority here don't want to assist.

It isn't that I disagree with you, I don't have AMD to even do so or explore it, it would be just odd for a rendering bug to be level specific (but not unheard of.) I am looking at the Mantle drivers right now, trying to see how they differ now. I am usually pretty good at finding problems.


----------



## psyside

Nvidia loyalist should keep to their threads, instead of trying to do everything in order to downplay AMD.


----------



## rdr09

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *RagingCain*
> 
> 6 Days Ago. I am already there I have BF4 crashing for the first time since... well I bought the game
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I was starting to feel left out of all the other nVidia issues out there.
> I may not be an AMD user currently but I like poking around at these things. I just asked for help. Apparently the majority here don't want to assist.
> 
> It isn't that I disagree with you, I don't have AMD to even do so or explore it, it would be just odd for a rendering bug to be level specific (but not unheard of.) I am looking at the Mantle drivers right now, trying to see how they differ now. I am usually pretty good at finding problems.


i've been reading nvidia drivers causing stuttering in games. how will that help g-sync if the drivers themselves will defeat its purpose? go test.


----------



## Jaju123

The BF4 graphical differences are bug... Repi said so on twitter, and that they don't affect performance.


----------



## sugarhell

http://www.pcgameshardware.de/AMD-Radeon-Grafikkarte-255597/Specials/AMD-Mantle-Test-Battlefield-4-1107754/

MP review + the famous bug with fog.


----------



## skupples

such hostility. He asked people for clarification, then gets ripped to shreds...








Quote:


> Originally Posted by *rdr09*
> 
> i've been reading nvidia drivers causing stuttering in games. how will that help g-sync if the drivers themselves will defeat its purpose? go test.


Idk if it's drivers or engines, but any game that has stuttering is easily fixed with d3doverride (dx triple buffering injector)

would love to know how one detects the differences between driver caused stuttering, & lack of proper sli support in the engine.


----------



## brazilianloser

Updated to the new driver and updated the game... BF4 either wont start or when it does I get highly distorted sound.


----------



## ZealotKi11er

I think people that dont want to dea with problems should not bother trying these drivers. You are just asking for trouble. Some people do it for fun and to help. If you cant handle that probably good idea to stay with DX11 and stable drivers.


----------



## mircopolo

First time I have seen a frame time graph anywhere (bottom of page), Mantle certainly appears to be pretty consistent from that point of view.

http://www.hardwareheaven.com/reviews/1930/pg10/xfx-r9-290x-black-oc-edition-graphics-card-review-with-mantle-4k-and-mantle.html


----------



## the9quad

Really, this beta seems more of a proof of concept more than anything else. In that context I'm happy with it and essentially saying, "ok that's nifty, I'm going back to the whql drivers for now, get back to work dice and amd and don't open your mouth again with anymore dates until it works as intended." That's not meant to sound harsh I'm grateful for the beta drivers but they are most definitely beta, and as such I'm not gonna use them until they are stable and I can use them on a day to day basis (other than run a few benches and go "nifty")


----------



## DapperDan795

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *the9quad*
> 
> Really, this beta seems more of a proof of concept more than anything else. In that context I'm happy with it and essentially saying, "ok that's nifty, I'm going back to the whql drivers for now, get back to work dice and amd and don't open your mouth again with anymore dates until it works as intended." That's not meant to sound harsh I'm grateful for the beta drivers but they are most definitely beta, and as such I'm not gonna use them until they are stable and I can use them on a day to day basis (other than run a few benches and go "nifty")


Well said sir. Well said


----------



## dir_d

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *the9quad*
> 
> Really, this beta seems more of a proof of concept more than anything else. In that context I'm happy with it and essentially saying, "ok that's nifty, I'm going back to the whql drivers for now, get back to work dice and amd and don't open your mouth again with anymore dates until it works as intended." That's not meant to sound harsh I'm grateful for the beta drivers but they are most definitely beta, and as such I'm not gonna use them until they are stable and I can use them on a day to day basis (other than run a few benches and go "nifty")


That's exactly what you are supposed to do with beta drivers. You only want to use beta drivers to test or if you have the skills to negate the problems the drivers cause. Everyone should go back to 13.12 after they have played around with mantle a bit. Honestly I'm quite surprised they rolled it into a driver and not something separate.


----------



## Mas

Hmm.

Had to install a couple of times, first time I had the downclocking issue, would drop to +/-20FPS in game. Reinstall fixed this issue, but overall I am having significantly lower performance in both Mantle and DX modes compared to my previous drivers @same graphical settings.

Think I'll just wait till mantle gets out of the beta phase before diving in again.


----------



## velocityx

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Mas*
> 
> Hmm.
> 
> Had to install a couple of times, first time I had the downclocking issue, would drop to +/-20FPS in game. Reinstall fixed this issue, but overall I am having significantly lower performance in both Mantle and DX modes compared to my previous drivers @same graphical settings.
> 
> Think I'll just wait till mantle gets out of the beta phase before diving in again.


same here. mantle gives me like 30fps in game where as in old 13.12 and crossfire I would fly over 100fps.

did a clena install two times, mantle doesn't evne kick in full screen.


----------



## jomama22

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *velocityx*
> 
> same here. mantle gives me like 30fps in game where as in old 13.12 and crossfire I would fly over 100fps.
> 
> did a clena install two times, mantle doesn't evne kick in full screen.


....please read the release notes, they clearly state that directx is better and more stable for cfx in BF4 then mantle.


----------



## velocityx

Its so tiring to read stuff like what you wrote. I memorized the release notes a day before i even installed these. And Crossfire is disabled and its 30 fps or lower. Just super buggy software right now.


----------



## skupples

the beta version basically adheres to all the pre-release speculation

best for low end, single GPU scenarios. Now they just need to make it the best for every scenario.


----------



## skupples

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *rdr09*
> 
> it's like xoleras wants us to give up our amd cards and go nvidia. in my case - I CANNOT.
> 
> i am not the only gamer in the house. i cannot afford to install and uninstall driver for each and every game. that is nonesense.


who has to do that? Has this person you know that does this linked empirical evidence that it's necessary to do this? What titles are the ones which require driver swaps?

Each company has it's ups & downs. It's up to the user to decide which issues he wants to deal with. Most people like me gave up on AMD with the 6xxx series due to the xfire+eyefinity issues. Many of us are waiting for those days to be truly fixed before switching back.


----------



## rdr09

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *skupples*
> 
> who has to do that? Has this person you know that does this linked empirical evidence that it's necessary to do this? What titles are the ones which require driver swaps?


you play BF3? what driver do you use for your nvidia cards for that game? is it the same driver you use for BF4?


----------



## skupples

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *rdr09*
> 
> you play BF3? what driver do you use for your nvidia cards for that game?


No, I haven't played a Battle Field title since the original... I do own BF$, only because it was 19.99$ during black friday, but iv'e yet to do anything with it.

I think it's an age thing. Seems everyone & their mother under the age of 21 plays BF4.

I much rather jump into some source/arma3/TF2. Different folks, Different strokes.

AMD made a huge investment when it comes to the battlefield series. I wouldn't be surprised if some of those awesome industry tricks are being played when it comes to BF. We have seen both companies do it to each other countless times.


----------



## lostsurfer

so what can I use to check my fps, fraps doesn't seem to like mantle api?


----------



## skupples

*I wish AMD nothing but the best.* More competition = better for the consumer. AMD fans which view Nvidia/Intel as "the axis of evil" & wish they would go out of business are ignorant in many ways, one of which being business.

Nvidia fans who clown on AMD & hope that mantle fails are just as silly.

DX limitations are being hit all over the place, Mantle is exactly what we need to give MS a wake up call.

Intel will be forced to drop prices on the mid range market, assuming AMD can bring APU prices down a notch as well.

Last but not least, nvidia will be forced to address some of the long standing issues in their architecture, one of which being SLi scaling limitations.

Anyone who has been around this market for more than 2 generations should realize that AMD has as big mouth when it comes to the hype machine & advertising.


----------



## Roaches

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *skupples*
> 
> *I wish AMD nothing but the best.* More competition = better for the consumer. AMD fans which view Nvidia/Intel as "the axis of evil" & wish they would go out of business are ignorant in many ways, one of which being business.
> 
> Nvidia fans who clown on AMD & hope that mantle fails are just as silly.
> 
> DX limitations are being hit all over the place, Mantle is exactly what we need to give MS a wake up call.
> 
> Intel will be forced to drop prices on the mid range market, assuming AMD can bring APU prices down a notch as well.
> 
> Last but not least, nvidia will be forced to address some of the long standing issues in their architecture, one of which being SLi scaling limitations.
> 
> Anyone who has been around this market for more than 2 generations should realize that AMD has as big mouth when it comes to the hype machine & advertising.


I agree with this ^

Hardware racism is ridiculous. Coming from both sides of the wagon, I really don't see whats the big deal with people discriminating others over their hardware preference. As long as it works intended, why go the extra mile to complain on what works right or wrong on both sides.

Apparently witnessing advancing tech year by year improves from flaws of the past. And as always, more competition.


----------



## SoloCamo

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *skupples*
> 
> *I wish AMD nothing but the best.* More competition = better for the consumer. AMD fans which view Nvidia/Intel as "the axis of evil" & wish they would go out of business are ignorant in many ways, one of which being business.
> 
> Nvidia fans who clown on AMD & hope that mantle fails are just as silly.
> 
> DX limitations are being hit all over the place, Mantle is exactly what we need to give MS a wake up call.
> 
> Intel will be forced to drop prices on the mid range market, assuming AMD can bring APU prices down a notch as well.
> 
> Last but not least, nvidia will be forced to address some of the long standing issues in their architecture, one of which being SLi scaling limitations.
> 
> Anyone who has been around this market for more than 2 generations should realize that AMD has as big mouth when it comes to the hype machine & advertising.


Exactly. Mantle's been well for me, but today I've had a hard time getting good frames, it's all over the place. Sometimes a restart fixes it, sometimes it doesn't. But at the same time. a buggy game, on a new api, on the first release of a *beta* driver, it's to be expected.

That said, when it works, it WORKS and the improvement is outstanding. I look forward to what it performs like in a few months.


----------



## the9quad

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SoloCamo*
> 
> That said, when it works, it WORKS and the improvement is outstanding. I look forward to what it performs like in a few months.


My feelings exactly!


----------



## ZealotKi11er

If anyone was expecting perfection from Mantle strait away..... It will take 2-3 drivers to just get it working for everyday use and more as permanent drivers. AMD has so much to the table right now. Probably its easier for the to release unfinished betas for people to find problems.


----------



## p00ter71

The driver has also helped a lot in Dx11. Mantle doesn't work so great for me in battlefield. Seems a little foggy and the shadows seemed off, but, it works really well in the star swarm demo. But in battlefield DX11 works great with this driver and the new patch. My







:


----------



## S1L3Nt

I can safely say that BF4 (single player) gives me quite a bit of a boost. I went from having a custom set of settings to improve frame rates to being about to just set it at ultra and leave it at that. However, I have experienced a problem with overclocking. With the new drivers, I can no longer overclock. I used to pull 1150/1750 with 1.1v/1.6v for core and mem respectively. Now, I get massive artifacts when I go and up the clocks of either values. I am sure that I will need to either do a fresh install or wait for a new set of drivers. The good thing is, at stock, i still pull a min of 40fps with ultra settings on a PCS+ AX7950.

I really wish this will push MSFT to release a better API. To be honest, I could care less if mantle survives or not. As long as the industry (MSFT)adopts/creates an API (DX12?) that can mimic if not exceed the performance of Mantle, then we all can benefit.

From that point on, those who do not have CPU intensive workloads will not longer have to fork up so much more just to get the most out of their graphics card. Maybe spend that extra $200-$300 from buying a lower end CPU towards a steam sale?









All in all, this is a step in the right direction and there is no two ways about it. Just because it is not available to nVidia users does not make it any less of a statement. People can bash it all they want, but the goal is not to put GCN cards on a pedestal but to open the eyes of the public. Mantle is a revolution in the world of gaming and will benefit both camps in the long run.

The sheer fact that people are saying, "[oh there aren't any games that support it, so it is a failure!]" shows how many of us fail to see the bigger picture. Would you not want more performance for free? If your answer is no, then you have no financial constraints or your purchasing decisions are determined by something other than gaming.

The bottom line is that with Mantle, MSFT is going feel more pressure to improve on DX. If things go according to plan, *EVERYONE* benefit. So for now, stop the bashing, stop the green vs red war. The fight is between *hardware* companies vs the *software* giant.

--rant over.


----------



## MrWhiteRX7

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *rdr09*
> 
> hey you! you need to test this beta . . .
> 
> http://www.overclock.net/t/1462658/geforce-334-67-driver-beta-released-tonight
> 
> GO!
> 
> ___________________
> 
> it's been awhile . . .
> 
> http://www.overclock.net/t/1460145/best-driver-revisions


I do find it interesting they have just as many driver issues especially lately... but they feel the need to come trash up the amd section. I have a kingpin and trifire 290s. Both rigs work fanstastically ?


----------



## skupples

the amount of NV fud in here is pretty minimal really.

Like, if anyone has been in an Nvidia GPU launch thread... lol... You will see real trashing. Idk how many times the titan club got locked before, & after release. Same for 780.


----------



## MrWhiteRX7

Lol well glad I haven't experienced that yet.


----------



## SlackerITGuy

So after a couple of full days using Mantle, I gotta say, for a completely new API and a completely new driver/driver model (remember guys the driver model for Mantle is completely different vs traditional APIs) it works surprisingly well, even in its current state.

Maybe I'm one of the few lucky ones without any system/game breaking issues (I haven't seen a single crash yet, no FPS drops, etc), I did however perform a complete system reinstall in preparation for Mantle (just that very same day luckily).

What I've noticed in the Battlefield 4 Mantle Build:

*The good:*

* Again, the smoothness is very noticeable, even at the same framerate vs Direct3D, you'll notice a smoother image, probably due to the tighter frame times.

* Frame rate remains robust/stable in complicated/heavy scenes. This is the big one for me, on a 64 player server, you won't see any performance loss in scenes where with Direct3D you would get a significant performance drop. 64 player servers now feel like 24/32 player servers.

*The bad:*

* The main one here is the severe stutter/freeze that happens maybe every ~3 min. Just like the ones we saw on the first live demo, when it happens you see a huge CPU spike in the Graph Overlay. *Very distracting*.

* Longer loading time when entering a server, after that all following maps will load just as fast as with Direct3D though. Maybe this is due to Mantle utilizing more resources than Direct3D? (VRAM and RAM usage is in fact higher in Mantle vs Direct3D).

* Still not optimized for most GCN cards. Even in its current state, the performance gains are pretty significant, but I would like to see how Mantle performs/feels when all GCN cards get fully optimized.

The more I play BF4 with Mantle enabled, the more it becomes clear to me that this is something that I would like see become the standard over time, as a former NVIDIA user (I had 3 NVIDIA cards on a row) I would definitely want to see support for NVIDIA GPUs in the future, *it's noticeable superior to Direct3D*.


----------



## ImJJames

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SlackerITGuy*
> 
> So after a couple of full days using Mantle, I gotta say, for a completely new API and a completely new driver/driver model (remember guys the driver model for Mantle is completely different vs traditional APIs) it works surprisingly well, even in its current state.
> 
> Maybe I'm one of the few lucky ones without any system/game breaking issues (I haven't seen a single crash yet, no FPS drops, etc), I did however perform a complete system reinstall in preparation for Mantle (just that very same day luckily).
> 
> What I've noticed in the Battlefield 4 Mantle Build:
> 
> *The good:*
> 
> * Again, the smoothness is very noticeable, even at the same framerate vs Direct3D, you'll notice a smoother image, probably due to the tighter frame times.
> 
> * Frame rate remains robust/stable in complicated/heavy scenes. This is the big one for me, on a 64 player server, you won't see any performance loss in scenes where with Direct3D you would get a significant performance drop. 64 player servers now feel like 24/32 player servers.
> 
> *The bad:*
> 
> * The main one here is the severe stutter/freeze that happens maybe every ~3 min. Just like the ones we saw on the first live demo, when it happens you see a huge CPU spike in the Graph Overlay. *Very distracting*.
> 
> * Longer loading time when entering a server, after that all following maps will load just as fast as with Direct3D though. Maybe this is due to Mantle utilizing more resources than Direct3D? (VRAM and RAM usage is in fact higher in Mantle vs Direct3D).
> 
> * Still not optimized for most GCN cards. Even in its current state, the performance gains are pretty significant, but I would like to see how Mantle performs/feels when all GCN cards get fully optimized.
> 
> The more I play BF4 with Mantle enabled, the more it becomes clear to me that this is something that I would like see become the standard over time, as a former NVIDIA user (I had 3 NVIDIA cards on a row) I would definitely want to see support for NVIDIA GPUs in the future, *it's noticeable superior to Direct3D*.


You get the stutter every 3mins? I get the stutter once or twice max a map...which only last a split second.


----------



## SlackerITGuy

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ImJJames*
> 
> You get the stutter every 3mins? I get the stutter once or twice max a map...which only last a split second.


Yup.

Remember, my card is still not fully optimized for BF4 Mantle in this driver according to AMD.


----------



## Sadmoto

check your vram if your getting stuttering with mantle, that's probably why.
I noticed my vram go from 1700 when playing on bf4 ultra(effects high),1080p on 64p servers to 3.4gb!!!
you may be going over your vram limit and resources are moving on and off the memory, causing that stutter


----------



## SlackerITGuy

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Sadmoto*
> 
> check your vram if your getting stuttering with mantle, that's probably why.
> I noticed my vram go from 1700 when playing on bf4 ultra(effects high),1080p on 64p servers to 3.4gb!!!
> you may be going over your vram limit and resources are moving on and off the memory, causing that stutter


I hear you, but remember that this is something EVERYONE is getting, this is not an isolated issue here on my end by any means.

Rest assured that if lowering settings to keep VRAM usage in check would in fact make this stutter go away, we would have heard about it already.


----------



## tinmann

How can it be smooth, robust and stable but stutter, every few minutes or was that a reference to the image quality opposed to frame rate?


----------



## Clocknut

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ZealotKi11er*
> 
> If anyone was expecting perfection from Mantle strait away..... It will take 2-3 drivers to just get it working for everyday use and more as permanent drivers. AMD has so much to the table right now. Probably its easier for the to release unfinished betas for people to find problems.


14.3/14.4 WHQL is the driver u guys are looking for. I am sticking to 13.12 until that. May be even further since no much games support mantle yet, so no point upgrading driver. Dont fix something that is working


----------



## SlackerITGuy

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *tinmann*
> 
> How can it be smooth, robust and stable but stutter, every few minutes or was that a reference to the image quality opposed to frame rate?


Nope, I was talking about frame rate.

It's a single hitch/skip that happens every couple of minutes. When you take that out of the equation, it's noticeable smoother vs Direct3D (tighter frame times).


----------



## skupples

I would suspect another beta will release by the time Thief comes to market.


----------



## psyside

14.4 WHQL?


----------



## quakermaas

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *psyside*
> 
> 14.4 WHQL?


He means, most Mantle bugs will should be ironed out by the time of that release.


----------



## kcuestag

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *sugarhell*
> 
> http://www.pcgameshardware.de/AMD-Radeon-Grafikkarte-255597/Specials/AMD-Mantle-Test-Battlefield-4-1107754/
> 
> MP review + the famous bug with fog.


Huh, looks like my tweet appears in that news, I feel important.


----------



## Durquavian

Ok, so it begins.


----------



## dir_d

I really hope NVIDIA is not working on their own version of mantle and will work with AMD to make this a standard for the graphic card industry. If NVIDIA is indeed working on a Mantle type API we will be very bad for the consumers.

I like that NVIDIA can make a proprietary product and make the experience very present out the gate but i hope they realize the potential to the end user on this one.


----------



## kersoz2003

*Hi guys I see some improvements after stuutering fo 2 days in bf4 . I try now and after 3 games I dont have any stuttering in bf4.







Why this improvement occured ? Mantle works really good and I got all 70-80 fps average on ultra with r9 280x 1240/1800 overlocked. so how this happened ?*


----------



## kersoz2003

ok guys ....ı see some memory leak ( I didnt test vram , but is usage of % 75 of 8 gb ram normal in bf4 ? or is it a memory leak ? and how can I solve it if you have a solution let me test it ?


----------



## delboy67

Seen this on Toms'.....
http://oxidegames.com/2014/02/04/new-star-swarm-build-better-mantle-performance/

'We just deployed a new build of our Star Swarm stress test that significantly improves the demo's performance using AMD's Mantle API. We suggest that those of you interested in benchmarking and performance numbers re-run your Mantle scenarios; you may be surprised at the results.

Did we crack some secret code or find a crazy new optimization? No, nothing so spectacular. The truth is that we made a mistake in our haste to deploy the build that stripped out the activation process. We didn't follow our normal release process, and missed how a minor change in that build had disabled some of the Nitrous engine's multi-threading features when using Mantle. Unfortunately we didn't notice that at first, as nobody was running Mantle last week due to the beta driver being delayed.

It's all fixed now, so Mantle users should see a noticeable boost in performance on most configurations (this fix doesn't have a huge effect on powerful-CPU/slow-GPU systems). We've also addressed the "gray screen" issue that was affecting some non-English Windows systems.'


----------



## Seid Dark

I really really hope that Nvidia will have Mantle support in the future.

Friend tested this, he's now able to do 160% resolution scale on BF4 1080p







(OC'd 7950 and 3570K). Mix of low and ultra settings.


----------



## rdr09

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Seid Dark*
> 
> I really really hope that Nvidia will have Mantle support in the future.
> 
> Friend tested this, he's now able to do 160% resolution scale on BF4 1080p
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (OC'd 7950 and 3570K). Mix of low and ultra settings.


what? i only do 140% with the 290. maxed out though - DX11.


----------



## ImJJames

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Seid Dark*
> 
> I really really hope that Nvidia will have Mantle support in the future.
> 
> Friend tested this, he's now able to do 160% resolution scale on BF4 1080p
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (OC'd 7950 and 3570K). Mix of low and ultra settings.


Nice


----------



## SlackerITGuy

So OCN, don't forget to report your Mantle issues here: www.amd.com/betareport

I just filed my report regarding the infamous stutter seen on the Mantle version of Battlefield 4.


----------



## skupples

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *bencher*
> 
> From the reviews I have seen. It is a gimmick.
> 
> A reviewer said it made no difference in gameplay. Just like I thought it would.
> 
> But then again I have not tried it myself.












plenty of biased tech "media" sources exist which are only in business because they receive money through legal forms of bribery.

Every person I know that tried it @ CES ordered one as soon as they got home.

Kyad is correct, it needs to become an industry standard. Hopefully Nvidia won't make the same mistakes as they have in the past. Oh imagine the horror of having two types of "g-sync" on the market, but nvidia has coded their drivers to only accept their proprietary version..

me want variable frame times + low level PC api.


----------



## <({D34TH})>

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SlackerITGuy*
> 
> So OCN, don't forget to report your Mantle issues here: www.amd.com/betareport
> 
> I just filed my report regarding the infamous stutter seen on the Mantle version of Battlefield 4.


This is what I always do with beta drivers.


----------



## Seid Dark

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *rdr09*
> 
> what? i only do 140% with the 290. maxed out though - DX11.


Yeah, but he has AO off, lighting and many other settings low, no MSAA etc. Basically max visibility settings for multiplayer. 160% is incredibly clear according to him, it's easier to spot enemies when jaggies are completely eliminated.


----------



## KyadCK

So uh... This is what happens when you take the GPU "out of the equasion" by running at low settings in StarSwarm...

DirectX:


Spoiler: Settings



Code:



Code:


===========================================================
Oxide Games
Star Swarm Stress Test - ©2013
C:\Users\77kyle.HOME\Documents\Star Swarm\Output_14_02_04_1653.txt
Version 1.00
02/04/2014 16:53
===========================================================

== Hardware Configuration =================================
GPU:            AMD Radeon HD 7900 Series
CPU:            AuthenticAMD
                AMD FX(tm)-8320 Eight-Core Processor           
Physical Cores:                 4
Logical Cores:                  8
Physical Memory:                34335346688
Allocatable Memory:             8796092891136
===========================================================

== Configuration ==========================================
API:                            DirectX
Scenario:                       ScenarioRTS.csv
User Input:                     Disabled
Resolution:                     1920x1080
Fullscreen:                     True
GameCore Update:                16.6 ms
Bloom Quality:                  High
PointLight Quality:             High
ToneCurve Quality:              High
Glare Overdraw:                 0
Shading Samples:                8
Shade Quality:                  Mid
Deferred Contexts:              Disabled
Temporal AA Duration:           16
Temporal AA Time Slice:         8
Detailed Frame Info:            C:\Users\77kyle.HOME\Documents\Star Swarm\FrameDump_14_02_04_1653.csv
===========================================================





Code:



Code:


== Results ================================================
Test Duration:                  360 Seconds
Total Frames:                   5774

Average FPS:                    16.04
Average Unit Count:             3923
Maximum Unit Count:             5537
Average Batches/MS:             329.58
Maximum Batches/MS:             600.67
Average Batch Count:            20169
Maximum Batch Count:            33264
===========================================================

Mantle:


Spoiler: Settings



Code:



Code:


===========================================================
Oxide Games
Star Swarm Stress Test - ©2013
C:\Users\77kyle.HOME\Documents\Star Swarm\Output_14_02_04_1700.txt
Version 1.00
02/04/2014 17:00
===========================================================

== Hardware Configuration =================================
GPU:            AMD Radeon HD 7900 Series
CPU:            AuthenticAMD
                AMD FX(tm)-8320 Eight-Core Processor           
Physical Cores:                 4
Logical Cores:                  8
Physical Memory:                34335346688
Allocatable Memory:             8796092891136
===========================================================

== Configuration ==========================================
API:                            Mantle
Scenario:                       ScenarioRTS.csv
User Input:                     Disabled
Resolution:                     1920x1080
Fullscreen:                     True
GameCore Update:                16.6 ms
Bloom Quality:                  High
PointLight Quality:             High
ToneCurve Quality:              High
Glare Overdraw:                 0
Shading Samples:                8
Shade Quality:                  Mid
Deferred Contexts:              Disabled
Temporal AA Duration:           16
Temporal AA Time Slice:         8
Detailed Frame Info:            C:\Users\77kyle.HOME\Documents\Star Swarm\FrameDump_14_02_04_1700.csv
===========================================================





Code:



Code:


== Results ================================================
Test Duration:                  360 Seconds
Total Frames:                   30036

Average FPS:                    83.43
Average Unit Count:             4746
Maximum Unit Count:             5781
Average Batches/MS:             1767.85
Maximum Batches/MS:             3285.21
Average Batch Count:            21217
Maximum Batch Count:            32699
===========================================================

Or, you know, it _would_ be out of the equation if I wasn't still GPU limited. Granted I only used one GPU (because I have no choice), but CPU still only got to like 70% while my 7990's first GPU was sitting at 99-100% usage the whole time.

So I overclocked my 7990 to the max it would do in CCC, which is 1100/1575 (from 1000/1500):

DirectX Overclock:


Spoiler: Settings



Code:



Code:


===========================================================
Oxide Games
Star Swarm Stress Test - ©2013
C:\Users\77kyle.HOME\Documents\Star Swarm\Output_14_02_04_1720.txt
Version 1.00
02/04/2014 17:20
===========================================================

== Hardware Configuration =================================
GPU:            AMD Radeon HD 7900 Series
CPU:            AuthenticAMD
                AMD FX(tm)-8320 Eight-Core Processor           
Physical Cores:                 4
Logical Cores:                  8
Physical Memory:                34335346688
Allocatable Memory:             8796092891136
===========================================================

== Configuration ==========================================
API:                            DirectX
Scenario:                       ScenarioRTS.csv
User Input:                     Disabled
Resolution:                     1920x1080
Fullscreen:                     True
GameCore Update:                16.6 ms
Bloom Quality:                  High
PointLight Quality:             High
ToneCurve Quality:              High
Glare Overdraw:                 0
Shading Samples:                8
Shade Quality:                  Mid
Deferred Contexts:              Disabled
Temporal AA Duration:           16
Temporal AA Time Slice:         8
Detailed Frame Info:            C:\Users\77kyle.HOME\Documents\Star Swarm\FrameDump_14_02_04_1720.csv
===========================================================





Code:



Code:


== Results ================================================
Test Duration:                  360 Seconds
Total Frames:                   5641

Average FPS:                    15.67
Average Unit Count:             3987
Maximum Unit Count:             5483
Average Batches/MS:             333.10
Maximum Batches/MS:             639.79
Average Batch Count:            20805
Maximum Batch Count:            33847
===========================================================

Mantle Overclock:


Spoiler: Settings



Code:



Code:


===========================================================
Oxide Games
Star Swarm Stress Test - ©2013
C:\Users\77kyle.HOME\Documents\Star Swarm\Output_14_02_04_1728.txt
Version 1.00
02/04/2014 17:28
===========================================================

== Hardware Configuration =================================
GPU:            AMD Radeon HD 7900 Series
CPU:            AuthenticAMD
                AMD FX(tm)-8320 Eight-Core Processor           
Physical Cores:                 4
Logical Cores:                  8
Physical Memory:                34335346688
Allocatable Memory:             8796092891136
===========================================================

== Configuration ==========================================
API:                            Mantle
Scenario:                       ScenarioRTS.csv
User Input:                     Disabled
Resolution:                     1920x1080
Fullscreen:                     True
GameCore Update:                16.6 ms
Bloom Quality:                  High
PointLight Quality:             High
ToneCurve Quality:              High
Glare Overdraw:                 0
Shading Samples:                8
Shade Quality:                  Mid
Deferred Contexts:              Disabled
Temporal AA Duration:           16
Temporal AA Time Slice:         8
Detailed Frame Info:            C:\Users\77kyle.HOME\Documents\Star Swarm\FrameDump_14_02_04_1728.csv
===========================================================





Code:



Code:


== Results ================================================
Test Duration:                  360 Seconds
Total Frames:                   31341

Average FPS:                    87.06
Average Unit Count:             4888
Maximum Unit Count:             6006
Average Batches/MS:             1874.90
Maximum Batches/MS:             3315.85
Average Batch Count:            21532
Maximum Batch Count:            33651
===========================================================

Yup you guessed it, still CPU limited on DirectX and GPU limited on Mantle. Even with Mantle having more units both on average and maximum.

Now someone please make BF4 work in fullscreen for me, I'm begging you, I want to see the smooth frames.


----------



## th3illusiveman

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SlackerITGuy*
> 
> So after a couple of full days using Mantle, I gotta say, for a completely new API and a completely new driver/driver model (remember guys the driver model for Mantle is completely different vs traditional APIs) it works surprisingly well, even in its current state.
> 
> Maybe I'm one of the few lucky ones without any system/game breaking issues (I haven't seen a single crash yet, no FPS drops, etc), I did however perform a complete system reinstall in preparation for Mantle (just that very same day luckily).
> 
> What I've noticed in the Battlefield 4 Mantle Build:
> 
> *The good:*
> 
> * Again, the smoothness is very noticeable, even at the same framerate vs Direct3D, you'll notice a smoother image, probably due to the tighter frame times.
> 
> * Frame rate remains robust/stable in complicated/heavy scenes. This is the big one for me, on a 64 player server, you won't see any performance loss in scenes where with Direct3D you would get a significant performance drop. 64 player servers now feel like 24/32 player servers.
> 
> *The bad:*
> 
> * The main one here is the severe stutter/freeze that happens maybe every ~3 min. Just like the ones we saw on the first live demo, when it happens you see a huge CPU spike in the Graph Overlay. *Very distracting*.
> 
> * Longer loading time when entering a server, after that all following maps will load just as fast as with Direct3D though. Maybe this is due to Mantle utilizing more resources than Direct3D? (VRAM and RAM usage is in fact higher in Mantle vs Direct3D).
> 
> * Still not optimized for most GCN cards. Even in its current state, the performance gains are pretty significant, but I would like to see how Mantle performs/feels when all GCN cards get fully optimized.
> 
> The more I play BF4 with Mantle enabled, the more it becomes clear to me that this is something that I would like see become the standard over time, as a former NVIDIA user (I had 3 NVIDIA cards on a row) I would definitely want to see support for NVIDIA GPUs in the future, *it's noticeable superior to Direct3D*.


Pretty much my experience. But like you said, they probably focused alot more on their new 290 cards then our fossils. Still though, i hope they get on the stutter thing ASAP, it's the only thing that keeps me from using mantle over DX11. There is very very high VRam usage with it, maybe that's the cause?


----------



## HowHardCanItBe

Next person to bring up a discussion on Gsync/Freesync or about display port 1.3, will get banned from this thread and will give an infraction.


----------



## velocityx

this mantle driver is very weird.

mantle bf4 update gives very high performance in 13.12 drivers in direct 3d. but with 14.1 both direct x works worse and mantle doesnt work at all, disabling crossfire doesnt do anything because mantle doesnt know which gpu to work with resulting in gpu 2 being in 100 load and full 3d clocks and gpu one zero to 30 load and throttled clocks.

prolly have to wait till thief comes out for a more mature driver with mantle?

if thief doesn't bring cfx to mantle I will be so pissed at amd...


----------



## Clocknut

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *velocityx*
> 
> this mantle driver is very weird.
> 
> mantle bf4 update gives very high performance in 13.12 drivers in direct 3d. but with 14.1 both direct x works worse and mantle doesnt work at all, disabling crossfire doesnt do anything because mantle doesnt know which gpu to work with resulting in gpu 2 being in 100 load and full 3d clocks and gpu one zero to 30 load and throttled clocks.
> 
> prolly have to wait till thief comes out for a more mature driver with mantle?
> 
> if thief doesn't bring cfx to mantle I will be so pissed at amd...


this is the result of using beta driver.







Just wait for WHQL version.

I think if u want a near flawless driver, u probably need to wait a few more WHQL release. 14.1 is a major driver update, it will most likely take AMD a few WHQL release to fix most of the bugs.


----------



## Deadboy90

Mantle is broken for me. Whenever I try and change any graphic settings in BF4 with it enabled I get a crash. And if that doesnt happen about 10 seconds into gameplay ill get a crash instead. With the DX API I have no issues but with mantle its crash city.


----------



## jdstock76

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *FallenFaux*
> 
> My guess is that the upper limit to BF4 is eight threads. So the 4770k get's less of an uplift because the extra four threads aren't doing much for the 4960k and the 4770k is already faster clock for clock. Then the same applies to the 8350 where it's eight threads were more of a benefit than the higher IPC already. But... just a guess.


^ this


----------



## revro

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *jdstock76*
> 
> ^ this


also there is this lovely bench where stated that when you turn off HT on your 6 core you get around 20 fps in avg fps. rather interesting read.
http://chipreviews.com/main-feature/main-news/frostbite-2s-limit-6-core-performance-in-battlefield-3/3/

i know that i am turning off the HT the moment i get my new 5930k this autumn/winter









best
revro


----------



## skupples

I have yet to actually see "HT on" benefit any games performance, but I haven't messed with it much in BF$.

It even adds some weird visuals in some of the games iv'e tested it on. Most recently being Assassins Creed Black Flag.


----------



## salamachaa

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Deadboy90*
> 
> Mantle is broken for me. Whenever I try and change any graphic settings in BF4 with it enabled I get a crash. And if that doesnt happen about 10 seconds into gameplay ill get a crash instead. With the DX API I have no issues but with mantle its crash city.


Did you try turning off your IGP? That fixed it for me.


----------



## Deadboy90

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *salamachaa*
> 
> Did you try turning off your IGP? That fixed it for me.


I have an 8320 there is no IGP.


----------



## salamachaa

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Deadboy90*
> 
> I have an 8320 there is no IGP.


Sorry I didn't see your sig rig. Are you using the 7950? A lot of users are having issues with the HD 7000 series. I haven't seen a fix for anyone yet.


----------



## Deadboy90

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *salamachaa*
> 
> Sorry I didn't see your sig rig. Are you using the 7950? A lot of users are having issues with the HD 7000 series. I haven't seen a fix for anyone yet.


Yea I am. Guess I gotta just sit on my hands till it gets fixed.


----------



## th3illusiveman

Playing with mantle is the only way i can play BF4 now lol. Plus i feel i game better with it... but that damn lag spike tho...


----------



## salamachaa

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Deadboy90*
> 
> Yea I am. Guess I gotta just sit on my hands till it gets fixed.


Yeah I would probably revert back until 14.1 goes whql.


----------



## Artev

i've found turning of MSAA and turning textures down to high smooths things out considerably on my sig rig (using mantle)


----------



## tju76

Hey guys i am having horrible issues ever since installing these new drivers. I am running crossfire 290x's and in bf4 running 5760x1200 after this driver download i cant even get more than 45 fps which is not normal post update i was getting easily over 100. This is using dx11 api as when i switch to mantle the game will crash if i have cf enabled


----------



## psyside

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *tju76*
> 
> Hey guys i am having horrible issues ever since installing these new drivers. I am running crossfire 290x's and in bf4 running 5760x1200 after this driver download i cant even get more than 45 fps which is not normal post update i was getting easily over 100. This is using dx11 api as when i switch to mantle the game will crash if i have cf enabled


Download DDU (google) run it.

Reboot, download 14.1

Reinstall or install MSI Afterburner, go into the settings, disable ULPS.

Reboot, set powerlimit to 20% on both cards, put fans on 60% apply the settings, and turn off - close AB.

Launch the game, change to mantle reboot the game, set your settings video and stuff, and do not alt tab or change any settings any more, until you stop playing.


----------



## keikei

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *tju76*
> 
> Hey guys i am having horrible issues ever since installing these new drivers. I am running crossfire 290x's and in bf4 running 5760x1200 after this driver download i cant even get more than 45 fps which is not normal post update i was getting easily over 100. This is using dx11 api as when i switch to mantle the game will crash if i have cf enabled


Known Issues


Spoiler: Warning: Spoiler!



Mantle performance for the AMD Radeon™ HD 7000/HD 8000 Series GPUs and AMD Radeon™ R9 280X and R9 270X GPUs will be optimized for BattleField 4™ in future AMD Catalyst™ releases. These products will see limited gains in BattleField 4™ and AMD is currently investigating optimizations for them.
Multi-GPU support under DirectX® and Mantle will be added to StarSwarm in a future application patch
*Intermittent stuttering or stability issues may occur when utilizing Mantle with AMD CrossFire™ technology in BattleField 4™ - AMD recommends using the DirectX code path when playing Battlefield 4 with multiple GPUs. A future AMD Catalyst release will resolve these issues*
Notebooks based on AMD Enduro or PowerXpress™ technologies are currently not supported by the Mantle codepath in Battlefield 4™
AMD Eyefinity configurations utilizing portrait display orientations are currently not supported by the Mantle codepath in Battlefield 4™
AMD Eyefinity technology is not currently supported in the Star Swarm application
AMD testing for the AMD Catalyst™ 14.1 Beta Mantle driver has been concentrated on the following products: AMD Radeon™ R9 290X, R9 290, R9 280, R9 270, R7 260X, R7 260, HD 7000 Series, HD 8000 Series, A10-7850K and A10-7700K. Future AMD Catalyst™ releases will include full test coverage for all AMD products supported by Mantle.
Graphics hardware in the AMD A10-7850K and A10-7700K may override the presence of a discrete GPU under the Mantle code path in Battlefield 4™
Frame Pacing for Dual Graphics and non-XDMA configurations above 2560x1600 do not currently work with Battlefield 3 and Battlefield 4. An upcoming release will enable support
DX9 Dual graphics is not supported in AMD Catalyst 14.1 Beta. An upcoming release will enable support


----------



## tju76

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *psyside*
> 
> Download DDU (google) run it.
> 
> Reboot, download 14.1
> 
> Reinstall or install MSI Afterburner, go into the settings, disable ULPS.
> 
> Reboot, set powerlimit to 20% on both cards, put fans on 60% apply the settings, and turn off - close AB.
> 
> Launch the game, change to mantle reboot the game, set your settings video and stuff, and do not alt tab or change any settings any more, until you stop playing.


i am trying this as we speak hopefully this gets me sorted out thank you for the help

i am doing this as we speak thanks for the help


----------



## tju76

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *psyside*
> 
> Download DDU (google) run it.
> 
> Reboot, download 14.1
> 
> Reinstall or install MSI Afterburner, go into the settings, disable ULPS.
> 
> Reboot, set powerlimit to 20% on both cards, put fans on 60% apply the settings, and turn off - close AB.
> 
> Launch the game, change to mantle reboot the game, set your settings video and stuff, and do not alt tab or change any settings any more, until you stop playing.


----------



## SlackerITGuy

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *th3illusiveman*
> 
> Playing with mantle is the only way i can play BF4 now lol. Plus i feel i game better with it... but that damn lag spike tho...


This 100%.

Come on AMD fix this already!


----------



## tju76

f&*&*&* i get the mantle driver to download correctly and now i am getting the error "no contact with ea online" i dont understand the thing was working fine before the updated drivers


----------



## skupples

EA servers crashed, for multiple games.


----------



## tju76

Yeah just saw this looks like a dos attack haha


----------



## skupples

It takes a huge net to take down the type of servers EA uses. Must be the Chinese @ it again.


----------



## maarten12100

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *skupples*
> 
> It takes a huge net to take down the type of servers EA uses. Must be the Chinese @ it again.


You would need very abundant total upload speed for sure


----------



## velocityx

I don't know why but with mantle, or just with the new r9 290's there's this thing about first boot/cold boots.

Like, with direct x, and 290, my bf4 game will crash within minutes of first loading a map. then it will run fine for the rest of the day if I dont switch off my machine.

with mantle it's that thing, where first loading up a map, gives me worse performance. example from today, I load up my server, op. locker loads. I get red and yellow fps marks, 35-40 to 55 fps. I reboot, load up again and same spots same empty server, I sit 80fps.

got no clue what is going on with these cards...


----------



## Farih

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *velocityx*
> 
> I don't know why but with mantle, or just with the new r9 290's there's this thing about first boot/cold boots.
> 
> Like, with direct x, and 290, my bf4 game will crash within minutes of first loading a map. then it will run fine for the rest of the day if I dont switch off my machine.
> 
> with mantle it's that thing, where first loading up a map, gives me worse performance. example from today, I load up my server, op. locker loads. I get red and yellow fps marks, 35-40 to 55 fps. I reboot, load up again and same spots same empty server, I sit 80fps.
> 
> got no clue what is going on with these cards...


The newest driver sometimes make my GPU turn back to stock after a restart.
Before i start playing game's i first have to apply the overclock again.

Maybe thats happening to you to ?


----------



## velocityx

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Farih*
> 
> The newest driver sometimes make my GPU turn back to stock after a restart.
> Before i start playing game's i first have to apply the overclock again.
> 
> Maybe thats happening to you to ?


Im running stock. thats the thing;p


----------



## mboner1

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *velocityx*
> 
> with mantle it's that thing, where first loading up a map, gives me worse performance. example from today, I load up my server, op. locker loads. I get red and yellow fps marks, 35-40 to 55 fps. I reboot, load up again and same spots same empty server, I sit 80fps.
> 
> got no clue what is going on with these cards...


Had the same thing happen man, not sure if it's drivers or the bios's for all the non reference cards but it is causing havoc with the core clock speeds and gpu usage.

I had it so it was downclocking in games and staying at overclocked full load speeds on desktop.

Finally got it running right now but still get the issue like you described (40-45 fps, laggy, juttery) above . Not just in bf4 but all games when it's happening. A simple restart fixes it, so at least i feel like i'm in control now and not just getting random spikes etc.

Would be nice to get either a driver or bios that resolves the issue with non reference 290/x's that fixes the issue with core clock speeds and gpu usage for these cards tho so i can stop monitoring clock speeds


----------



## Serios

Not bad


----------



## ZealotKi11er

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Serios*
> 
> Not bad


I would with with Mantle there should not be CPU differences but its still the same difference.


----------



## nitrubbb

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *ZealotKi11er*
> 
> I would with with Mantle there should not be CPU differences but its still the same difference.


I must agree. All this non-sense talk about 8350 being downclocked and still being gpu bound. what a blatant lie

a10-7850k and 8350 difference still big with mantle, I mean is 7850K slower than [email protected]?

what mantle did was make their apu-s from completely non-usable with dGPU-s to mediocre


----------



## NaroonGTX

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *nitrubbb*
> 
> I must agree. All this non-sense talk about 8350 being downclocked and still being gpu bound. what a blatant lie
> 
> a10-7850k and 8350 difference big huge with mantle, I mean is 7850K slower than [email protected]?
> 
> what mantle did was make their apu-s from completely non-usable with dGPU-s to mediocre


The only one talking nonsense here is you. That "underclocked to 2ghz" thing was specific to that one game that was tested, it was obvious that it wouldn't apply to every game. Besides, why the hell would anyone perma-downclock their CPU to 2ghz anyway?

Mantle isn't rocket-science: it removes CPU bottlenecks. Not every game is constantly CPU-bound and some don't even need a beefy CPU in DX. So obviously not every game will get a 50% boost with it.


----------



## kingduqc

There is so many benchmark that show from great to meh results with mantle I'm not too sure I got my head around it. It's pretty exciting for those who still play Battlefield 4 and got amd gpus I guess, too bad it's just 1 out of 20 000 games and only work on like 10% of the gpus on the market :/ Hope it pick up steam and more people adopt it or else it will become like physx and become a moot point real quick.


----------



## PostalTwinkie

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *kingduqc*
> 
> There is so many benchmark that show from great to meh results with mantle I'm not too sure I got my head around it. It's pretty exciting for those who still play Battlefield 4 and got amd gpus I guess, too bad it's just 1 out of 20 000 games and only work on like 10% of the gpus on the market :/ Hope it pick up steam and more people adopt it or else it will become like physx and become a moot point real quick.


It effectively removes CPU bound situations; Mantle is a huge boon to those with lower end to middle of the road systems in the CPU market. Mantle has the potential to create a situation of no longer needing to buy a $350+ CPU, instead being able to buy a nice general use CPU, and dump that extra cash into a high end GPU or a couple of them. Of course this applies more widely as Mantle is adopted.

The end result to the gamer is that in Mantle supported titles, it provides a shift of money allocation when it comes to building or buying a PC. You can potentially shift $200 from the CPU and put it towards a GPU, which is a pretty big deal.


----------



## nitrubbb

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *PostalTwinkie*
> 
> It effectively removes CPU bound situations; Mantle is a huge boon to those with lower end to middle of the road systems in the CPU market. Mantle has the potential to create a situation of no longer needing to buy a $350+ CPU, instead being able to buy a nice general use CPU, and dump that extra cash into a high end GPU or a couple of them. Of course this applies more widely as Mantle is adopted.
> 
> The end result to the gamer is that in Mantle supported titles, it provides a shift of money allocation when it comes to building or buying a PC. You can potentially shift $200 from the CPU and put it towards a GPU, which is a pretty big deal.


I agree it shifts money from cpu to gpu and in the end result is the same. you have a crappy cpu+epic gpu you will get same framerates than more powerful cpu and weaker gpu would
Quote:


> Originally Posted by *NaroonGTX*
> 
> The only one talking nonsense here is you. That "underclocked to 2ghz" thing was specific to that one game that was tested, it was obvious that it wouldn't apply to every game. Besides, why the hell would anyone perma-downclock their CPU to 2ghz anyway?
> 
> Mantle isn't rocket-science: it removes CPU bottlenecks. Not every game is constantly CPU-bound and some don't even need a beefy CPU in DX. So obviously not every game will get a 50% boost with it.


my logic tells my if it removes cpu bottlenecks then a game should run the same with different cpus but same gpu but reality is far from it



i3! using DX better than 7850K with mantle, pfffff


----------



## PostalTwinkie

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *nitrubbb*
> 
> I agree it shifts money from cpu to gpu and in the end result is the same. you have a ****ty cpu+epic gpu you will get same framerates than more powerful cpu and weaker gpu would
> my logic tells my if it removes cpu bottlenecks then a game should run the same with different cpus but same gpu but reality is far from it


It isn't the same in Mantle titles.

In a Mantle title instead of having a high end CPU and a high end GPU, you can have a lower end CPU and a high end GPU, but get similar results in both. Again, in Mantle titles the CPU becomes very little concern to the performance of the game, putting all the weight of that performance on the GPU.

Example, and slightly made-up numbers:

*Player A wants 60 FPS in "Super Awesome Game" DX 11*

He spends $350 on CPU and $400 on GPU, grand total $750 to reach his goal.

*Player B wants 60 FPS in "Super Awesome Game" Mantle*

He spends $110 on CPU and $400 on GPU, grand total $510 to reach his goal.

Both of the players hit the 60 FPS in the same game, once just did it in a more cost effective way. The trade off being he will suffer in non Mantle games.


----------



## nitrubbb

my point is more like this (also made up numbers xD)

Mantle: 250$ cpu + 300$ gpu = 150$ cpu + 400$ gpu

It always makes more sense to get option 1 since it will perform the same on mantle enambled games and much better overall+non-mantle games


----------



## Dudewitbow

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *nitrubbb*
> 
> my point is more like this (also made up numbers xD)
> 
> Mantle: 250$ cpu + 300$ gpu = 150$ cpu + 400$ gpu
> 
> It always makes more sense to get option 1 since it will perform the same on mantle enambled games and much better overall+non-mantle games


it really depends on platform and choice one makes. one thing that is slightly forgotten is that upper end cpus also are paired generally with upper end motherboards thus increasing overall cost again. Also gpu debate is also slightly more finicky as for the moment(will likely change later) 290 and 290x based gpu's receive more of a performance boost than the older gcn 1.0 based gpus. the change in gpu choice can also affect vram amount and mem bus size which has their own effects on performance as well. the debate on mantle really is case by case specific, what it does is put more value to some builds(Laptops will likely benefit the most, the 750k, older Phenom II''s, 6300 and 8320's on sale become very valuable).

once you get into non mantle games, it then becomes a game of multithreaded vs IPC gain for the lower end budget scheme(6300/i3 and lower price point). the i3 will generally perform well on games sporadically, but may potentially falter if a game utilizes multiple threads, or if background processes require threads(e.g streaming has been increasingly more popular). So its really up for debate how popular thread count vs IPC is for the newly current gen consoles are(6 on xbone, 7 on ps4) will affect which cpu will gain more support overtime.


----------



## NaroonGTX

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *nitrubbb*
> 
> I agree it shifts money from cpu to gpu and in the end result is the same. you have a crappy cpu+epic gpu you will get same framerates than more powerful cpu and weaker gpu would
> my logic tells my if it removes cpu bottlenecks then a game should run the same with different cpus but same gpu but reality is far from it
> 
> 
> 
> i3! using DX better than 7850K with mantle, pfffff


They always test the single-player for some dumb reason, which everyone knows isn't that CPU-bound. This means that if the CPU bottleneck (however little of it there is) is removed, then the game becomes GPU-bound. And even in DX, an Intel CPU will push the GPU better than an AMD CPU will, thus even in Mantle the Intel CPU can grant more performance than the AMD can.

Just because a CPU bottleneck is removed doesn't mean the game isn't using the CPU at all, or that a more efficient architecture will perform on parity with a less efficient one.

Edit: If this were an actual multiplayer BF4 bench, the results would be completely different. Single-player BF3 and BF4 benches are a joke and I dunno why these so-called "professionals" keep doing them.


----------



## Kuivamaa

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *NaroonGTX*
> 
> They always test the single-player for some dumb reason, which everyone knows isn't that CPU-bound. This means that if the CPU bottleneck (however little of it there is) is removed, then the game becomes GPU-bound. And even in DX, an Intel CPU will push the GPU better than an AMD CPU will, thus even in Mantle the Intel CPU can grant more performance than the AMD can.
> 
> Just because a CPU bottleneck is removed doesn't mean the game isn't using the CPU at all, or that a more efficient architecture will perform on parity with a less efficient one.
> 
> Edit: If this were an actual multiplayer BF4 bench, the results would be completely different. Single-player BF3 and BF4 benches are a joke and I dunno why these so-called "professionals" keep doing them.


I don't know what that bench is but unless BF4 is using AVX2 or something (haswell has it) there is no way such an i3 to have 40% higher average framerate than a A10-7850k, on single player or multiplayer under DX, on ultra preset even (4xMSAA, remember). SP would be heavily GPU bound and neither A10 nor i3 can maintain this high framerate on true MP anyway. 1080p ultra, no way.


----------



## NaroonGTX

Agreed, many of the BF4 benches I've seen have produced ridiculously sketchy-looking results, in many cases being very inconsistent or outright nonsensical.


----------



## Themisseble

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Serios*
> 
> Not bad


disagree
FX 6300 is on same lvl as i5

not good benchmark actually is very weird

I did becnhmarks with FX 4300
DirectX 32-45 FPS
Mantle 72-96 FPS

Nobody is posting penitum/athlon x4/i3 4330

Even comparison between i3 4330 and FX 4300 both 3.5Ghz
Starswarm Benchmark
RTS - low --> CPU bottleneck

i3 4330 60 FPS
FX 4300 62 FPS

directX
Fx 4300 21 FPS 4.1Ghz


----------



## Durquavian

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *Kuivamaa*
> 
> I don't know what that bench is but unless BF4 is using AVX2 or something (haswell has it) there is no way such an i3 to have 40% higher average framerate than a A10-7850k, on single player or multiplayer under DX, on ultra preset even (4xMSAA, remember). SP would be heavily GPU bound and neither A10 nor i3 can maintain this high framerate on true MP anyway. 1080p ultra, no way.


I looked as hard as I could the other day for proof but couldn't find it (ok maybe not that hard ). But someone mentioned that BF4 had a qualifier dependent on the CPU core count. A 2 Core (assuming most mobile situations) would run the game a bit differently than higher core counts. So the game would not be so limited on lower thread counts the game engine forgoes certain animations and actions in game. Specifically mentioned was opening doors. On the i3 the doors just went from closed to open and with the ,say, 8350 the door animation would show it opening. At least that is what I took from their explanation.


----------



## NaroonGTX

^That existed in BF3 as well. There were situations where if you had 4 or more cores, it would have actual squad-members opening doors and such, but if you had 2 cores those squad members wouldn't exist and the door would magically open by itself.


----------



## Kuivamaa

I need to test this.


----------



## looniam

nvm


----------



## serothis

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *looniam*
> 
> ah . . . because "professionals" need to do testing under conditions that can be replicated by anyone to be considered valid.:


well...yes. That is a key aspect of the scientific method, repeatable experiments


----------



## the9quad

Filled out a beta driver feedback with my issues. Hopefully enough people let them know about the problems (instead of just whining on forums)

http://www.amdsurveys.com/se.ashx?s=5A1E27D25AD12B21


----------



## SlackerITGuy

With the latest update, Mantle on BF4 is now smooth as silk, the severe skip/stutter is now gone, extremely enjoyable now.

Too bad I had my 1st crash in ~months -____-


----------



## SoloCamo

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SlackerITGuy*
> 
> With the latest update, Mantle on BF4 is now smooth as silk, the severe skip/stutter is now gone, extremely enjoyable now.
> 
> Too bad I had my 1st crash in ~months -____-


when was this update? May try 14.1 out again


----------



## SlackerITGuy

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SoloCamo*
> 
> when was this update? May try 14.1 out again


Today.

~400MBs.


----------



## bencher

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SlackerITGuy*
> 
> Today.
> 
> ~400MBs.


Will play with mantle when I get home.


----------



## SlackerITGuy

You guys will find it much more enjoyable now, absolutely no reason to go back to Direct3D.

Here's the changelog for Mantle:
Quote:


> *Mantle*
> -Fix for a crash that would occur when activating full screen in portrait mode
> -Fix for stuttering that could appear during video sequences on multi-GPU PCs
> -Fix for a memory system leak that could cause stalls, which would result in frames taking longer to process
> -Reduced the amount of stalls that occurred when running with high graphics setting that require more GPU memory than is currently available
> -Fixed screenshots on multi-GPU PCs


----------



## Jack Mac

Dang snowstorm knocking out my electricity. I'll try this as soon as possible.


----------



## yoshi245

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SlackerITGuy*
> 
> You guys will find it much more enjoyable now, absolutely no reason to go back to Direct3D.
> 
> Here's the changelog for Mantle:


[edit]
Ignore this post, realized it's a BF4 patch not an actual driver update.


----------



## the9quad

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *yoshi245*
> 
> You got a link for it somewhere? AMD's site is still hosting the current 1.6 version of Mantle driver.


It's a BF4 patch not a driver update.


----------



## yoshi245

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *the9quad*
> 
> It's a BF4 patch not a driver update.


Yeah, had to edit my last post to reflect that. But at least I know, thx









As long as it gets rid of the stuttering, I'm, happy.


----------



## SlackerITGuy

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *yoshi245*
> 
> Yeah, had to edit my last post to reflect that. But at least I know, thx
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> As long as it gets rid of the stuttering, I', happy.


It gets rid of the infamous stall/skip, but the patch made the game crash for me, 2nd crash of the day (just when the round ends).

This is unbelievable.


----------



## hyp36rmax

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SlackerITGuy*
> 
> It gets rid of the infamous stall/skip, but the patch made the game crash for me, 2nd crash of the day (just when the round ends).
> 
> This is unbelievable.


Did you know you can save your points when you press the esc key periodically throughout your game?? saves the points before you crash. I just learned about this


----------



## bossie2000

So this may after all proof that there is not much wrong with Mantle but more like BF4 was the problem.Thanks EA!








At the end i think if game developers put real mind to optimize Mantle in new upcomming games it's really going to kick DX butt.


----------



## SlackerITGuy

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *hyp36rmax*
> 
> Did you know you can save your points when you press the esc key periodically throughout your game?? saves the points before you crash. I just learned about this


Nice tip mate, but I finished the SP ages ago hahaha.

I was talking about the MP.


----------



## hyp36rmax

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *SlackerITGuy*
> 
> Nice tip mate, but I finished the SP ages ago hahaha.
> 
> I was talking about the MP.


This is mp


----------



## yoshi245

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *hyp36rmax*
> 
> This is mp


That's not an intended feature now is it?

GJ DICE, fix one thing, break another, or maybe an extra unintended feature.


----------



## SlackerITGuy

Quote:


> Originally Posted by *hyp36rmax*
> 
> This is mp


Major brain fart, sorry about that.

AFAIK, as long as you don't re-enter the server when the round is still going, you won't lose your points.


----------

